Madeleine McCann Discussion

[docwho3]

Many thanks for the feed back. I thought about the perps maybe trying to get the device out, but then wondered if they would even know it is in there???? . . . I think that in the beginning the implants would not be known about and would work but once the devices gained large acceptance and use it would not take too long for criminals to begin to learn the usual places the chips are placed and to begin to mutilate victims in an effort to find and remove implants. For instance I am just an ordinary member of the general public and yet I know the many dogs have implants in their ears so if I was a big time dog thief and was worried about being tracked I would begin to cut off ears parts or would get an implant detector such as vets can use and remove the implants. (Note: most of the implants for dogs that I have read about do not have GPS tracking but only can be read by being scanned with a chip detector.)

For some criminals this would be a similar thing. They would know where most implants are located and then would try to cut on those places or a serial killer/kidnapper might get a detector or devise a cheap way to find the implant. Maybe a simple stud finder or cheap metal detector or a simple pocket radio could find the chip. Some less bright criminals might torture someone to try and get them to say where the implant is located.

Back to this Madeleine case:

Why, in one news report, was it reported Madeleine was sleeping between the twins when a diagram of the rooms has been showing that they slept in separate beds?
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_03/mccanngraphicES2009_800x622.jpg

I am a bit confused by this.

[Jayelles]

While I agree with most of this, I carry my passport with me at all times when traveling in foreign countries, but not in a purse. Just going a few steps to dinner, I'd probably have only a compact and a lipstick and a room key in my bag. Most cameras are tiny enough to fit in a small bag as well. That being said, I'm sure if someone I knew was yelling for help, I'd probably just as likely leave it where it was and run to see what was going on and what I could do as I would rememberto take it with me.


Would you carry your passport with you if you were going to the beach or to the pool? If so, what would you do with the passport when you were in the water?

Beachwear doesn't really lend itself to the carrying of a passport!

[cat840]

Would you carry your passport with you if you were going to the beach or to the pool? If so, what would you do with the passport when you were in the water?

Beachwear doesn't really lend itself to the carrying of a passport!

I usually keep the passport in a bag by the pool. Trying to keep my eyes on it. If the whole family is around someone can keep an eye at the valuables. Feels kind of safe to always know were those things are when you are abroad IMO.

[dallasvic]

I think that in the beginning the implants would not be known about and would work but once the devices gained large acceptance and use it would not take too long for criminals to begin to learn the usual places the chips are placed and to begin to mutilate victims in an effort to find and remove implants. For instance I am just an ordinary member of the general public and yet I know the many dogs have implants in their ears so if I was a big time dog thief and was worried about being tracked I would begin to cut off ears parts or would get an implant detector such as vets can use and remove the implants. (Note: most of the implants for dogs that I have read about do not have GPS tracking but only can be read by being scanned with a chip detector.)

For some criminals this would be a similar thing. They would know where most implants are located and then would try to cut on those places or a serial killer/kidnapper might get a detector or devise a cheap way to find the implant. Maybe a simple stud finder or cheap metal detector or a simple pocket radio could find the chip. Some less bright criminals might torture someone to try and get them to say where the implant is located.

Back to this Madeleine case:

Why, in one news report, was it reported Madeleine was sleeping between the twins when a diagram of the rooms has been showing that they slept in separate beds?
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_03/mccanngraphicES2009_800x622.jpg

I am a bit confused by this.


Hi docwho3,

The only one i read is that the twins were on a cot next to Maddie:shrug:

[rashomon]

Excellent post, Athena. I think as Americans we often take for granted that we are inundated with constant reminders of the dangers of child predators. I believe almost every state has enacted 'Three Strikes Laws" (Polly's Law) after the horrible murder of Polly Klass. We also have 'Adam Alerts', 'Jessica's Law', 'Amber Alerts', etc and of course the highly vocal John Walsh all to constantly remind us of these dangerous predators. We have a National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, groups called 'Parent's of Murdered Children', missing children pictured on our milk cartons, and hardly a week goes by without another horrid news story of an abducted or murdered child. But other countries are different, especially those with low crime rates.

I became aware of these cultural differences a few years ago. I live in a town where many Asian and Europeans come to vacation. A few years ago, a British woman was issued a citation for leaving her sleeping baby in a stroller outside a clothing store where she was shopping. Locals here thought this was horribly negligent, but after she was interviewed on the local news, I was left with a much different perspective. This woman was clearly educated, articulate and a loving mother. But she came from a rural part of England where the crime rate is very low. She explained that in her town, it would be considered quite rude and inconsiderate to other shoppers to push your pram into a small clothing store. SHe explained that this was done all the time where she lived and no one even considered it dangerous. This of course sounds naive to many Americans, but again it is a genuine cultural differnce.

There was another similar situation with a Japanese tourist. Again the crime rate in Japan is quite low so child abduction was the furthest thing from this woman's mind.

No doubt Brits are now acutely aware of these dangers after the abduction of Madeliene McCann and I'm sure these cultural practices will change. Just like they changed in the US over the past several decades as all of these hideous crimes against children came to light.

Just think of how negligent our own parents were compared to todays standards. I joke with my parents all the time that they would be in jail for the negligent manner in which they raised us: they didn't use car seats, didn't even always use seatbelts, allowed us to sell girl scout cookies door to door, ride bikes without helmets, and play outside unsupervised. As you say, hindsite is always 20/20.
I'm from Europe too and it is definitiely not a normal thing for parents here to leave their three small children alone at night. Of course there also exist parents here who do this, and now and then one can read in the papers about such tragic cases where e. g. the parents went to a bar or disco, leaving their small children alone and when they come back, the apartment has burned down and their kids are dead because they woke up and played with matches. But these parents are often not prosecuted for neglect, since LE thinks they are already beng punished enough by the loss of their children.

jmo

[Louisadelmar]

I'm from Europe too and it is definitiely not a normal thing for parents here to leave their three small children alone at night. Of course there also exist parents here who do this, and now and then one can read in the papers about such tragic cases where e. g. the parents went to a bar or disco, leaving ther small children alone and when they come back, the apartment has burned down and their kids are dead because they woke up and played with matches. But these parents are often not prosecuted for neglect, since LE thinks they are already beng punished enough by the loss of their children.

jmo

Then why do these 'listening services' Jayelles mentioned exist? I would think if there wasn't much of a market the service wouldn't be available.

[rashomon]

Patio doors are sliding doors which lead to a patio. They are basically big sliding windows.
...
As I understand it, these doors were not literally left "open" but rather were unlocked.
I don't think anyone is suggesting the intruder entered by the patio door. The consensus seems to be that he entered by the rear window which was sheltered by an outer wall (which created a back yard effect). Then there is an inner wall behind the apartment which creates a sort of window well effect and would allow anyone crouching down to hide from passers by.
Thanks for the info about the the patio door, Jayelles.
If you look at the photos of the apartment which are all over the web, you'll see that the patio faced the pool area where the bar and restaurant are located and would be visible to the guests who were sitting there.
But wasn't there a wall which kept the patio door from view if one was sitting at the tapas bar?

jmo

[rashomon]

Then why do these 'listening services' Jayelles mentioned exist? I would think if there wasn't much of a market the service wouldn't be available.
People often use them in their own home when they are present in the home.
For example, the keep them in the master bedroom at night so they will wake up if their kids cry in their own room. I had this listening device too but hardly ever used it - we simply moved our baby's crib into our master bedroom.

jmo

[rashomon]

One or more news reports stated they had left the children alone like that every night for about a week. If anyone was watching for such a pattern as an opportunity to get a child then this pattern of the mccanns was made to order for them. I wonder if this pattern figures in to what happened to Madeleine. Some burglars and some kidnappers case the area before doing their evil deed to learn when people are gone from home and to see if anyone has a trustworthy routine that sets a time they can depend on the adult people being gone from the home. And we know there has been one or more news articles that said someone was watching the place where the mccanns were vacationing. Is it possible that the mccann's routine being a sort of sale flag to a perp/s actions actually bolsters the theory of a kidnapping having taken place?
I agree. Whoever kidnapped Madeleine must have known the family's routine very well. For kidnappers don't just randomly wander around in holiday apartment complexes hoping to find a door open where they can snatch a child.

jmo

[Louisadelmar]

People often use them in their own home when they are present in the home.
For example, the keep them in the master bedroom at night so they will wake up if their kids cry in their own room. I had this listening device too but hardly ever used it - we simply moved our baby's crib into our master bedroom.

jmo

Not device, service.

http://portugalresident.com/portugalresident/showstory.asp?ID=18787

Mark Warner resorts offer either a free room listening or a drop-in crèche service for young children.

The room listening service operates from 8pm until midnight when nannies tour the rooms checking on the children and reporting any problems to parents.

Falmouth Beach Resort Hotel, Falmouth, Cornwall
Click to enlarge this Image for: Falmouth Beach Resort Hotel ... Babysitting and baby listening services are available on request and children’s menus and ...
www.easypreschoolsouthwest.co.uk/main/en/acm-provider-10382.html - 25k -

Great family hotels in the West Country
Baby listening service and an early suppers and children's menu. Nanny Service available. ... The Sands Resort was purpose built for families. ...
www.babycentre.co.uk/baby/travel/familyhotelswestcountry/ - 37k

Booking a family resort. World's best responsible & ecotourism ...
Do you offer a baby-sitting or baby-listening service? ... Do you offer any resort transport? If not, how well are you serviced by public transport? ...
www.responsibletravel.com/Copy/Copy100424.htm - 18k -

[One2Snoop]

I agree. Whoever kidnapped Madeleine must have known the family's routine very well. For kidnappers don't just randomly wander around in holiday apartment complexes hoping to find a door open where they can snatch a child.

jmo

That's what I think to rashomon. I believe someone spied little Maddie and struck when the opportunity presented itself. I certainly hope the latest news articles that have come out about "sightings of Maddie" prove true and she is found soon. It means people are still looking and thats a good thing.

[rashomon]

Not device, service.

http://portugalresident.com/portugalresident/showstory.asp?ID=18787

Mark Warner resorts offer either a free room listening or a drop-in crèche service for young children.

The room listening service operates from 8pm until midnight when nannies tour the rooms checking on the children and reporting any problems to parents.

Falmouth Beach Resort Hotel, Falmouth, Cornwall
Click to enlarge this Image for: Falmouth Beach Resort Hotel ... Babysitting and baby listening services are available on request and children’s menus and ...
www.easypreschoolsouthwest.co.uk/main/en/acm-provider-10382.html - 25k -

Great family hotels in the West Country
Baby listening service and an early suppers and children's menu. Nanny Service available. ... The Sands Resort was purpose built for families. ...
www.babycentre.co.uk/baby/travel/familyhotelswestcountry/ - 37k

Booking a family resort. World's best responsible & ecotourism ...
Do you offer a baby-sitting or baby-listening service? ... Do you offer any resort transport? If not, how well are you serviced by public transport? ...
www.responsibletravel.com/Copy/Copy100424.htm - 18k -
But can't "baby listening service" also mean that the hotels provide so-called babyphones to the parents? Or that the nannies "touring the rooms" use these babyphones?
But whatever it means, the McCanns neither used a babysitting nor a "baby listening" service.

jmo

[lodfafner]

The McCanns opted instead to eat 40-50m from their apartment, not much more than a pool’s width away. They hoped it would be just close enough to hear a crying baby but with bar music playing and restaurant hubbub, it wasn’t close enough to hear what happened to Madeleine that night.

Here is a thing that strikes me as really odd. From what is reported we know that the people at the dining table didn't know anything was wrong until Kate came stumbling back calling out "Madeliene is gone, Madeliene is gone".

Kate says that she was looking for Maddie for about 10min before going back to the restaurant.IIRC the woman next door to the McCanns didn't hear anything either until the police arrived.

Why didn't anybody hear Kate calling out for Maddie while she was looking for her??:eek:

A friend of mine had a child gone missing and the mothers frantic calls for the daugther was heard all over the neightbourhood to the extent that neighbours started coming to the house to look what was going on.

[Louisadelmar]

But can't "baby listening service" also mean that the hotels provide so-called babyphones to the parents? Or that the nannies "touring the rooms" use these babyphones?
But whatever it means, the McCanns neither used a babysitting nor a "baby listening" service.

jmo

I'm sure it can. However, you said "I'm from Europe too and it is definitiely not a normal thing for parents here to leave their three small children alone at night"

You'll notice the service described by Mark Warner says "
"The room listening service operates from 8pm until midnight when nannies tour the rooms checking on the children and reporting any problems to parents."

'Tour the rooms' not use devices.

And my question was - If it isn't "normal" why does this resort (and others) advertise it as a plus for their clients?

[Jayelles]

But can't "baby listening service" also mean that the hotels provide so-called babyphones to the parents? Or that the nannies "touring the rooms" use these babyphones?
But whatever it means, the McCanns neither used a babysitting nor a "baby listening" service.

jmo

Sometimes the hotels use baby monitors (I think that might be the same thing as a babyphone). However, baby monitors have their limitations in that they only work within a certain range. They also won't work through very thick walls and a lot of British hotels are old buildings. The Mark Warner Ocean Club is very sprawling.

ALso, they aren't 100% reliable. We stopped using ours after we switched it on one night and could hear a man and woman talking to their children. We haven't a clue who this was - not anyone in our street for sure. It made us wonder if someone else could pick up us on their monitor! Recently we'd been using the monitor for my mother when she'd been unwell and staying with us so that she could call us if she needed to during the night! Since then we installed an internal phone system which we thought offered a bit more security than the fickle baby monitor!

[dallasvic]

At one point One2Snoop told me she had read that in the restaurant there was more than one person that had left the kids alone and were going to check on theirs as well.
I do not think these parents stage a kidnapping. Someone had been watching this family and learned their routine. That was not the first time they had left the kids alone.
Not knowing the day the pic was taken of the men watching Gerry playing in the park with the kids, if they were to check i bet it was right before Maddie went missing and that would be a great place to start.:shrug:

[rashomon]

I'm sure it can. However, you said "I'm from Europe too and it is definitiely not a normal thing for parents here to leave their three small children alone at night"

You'll notice the service described by Mark Warner says "
"The room listening service operates from 8pm until midnight when nannies tour the rooms checking on the children and reporting any problems to parents."

'Tour the rooms' not use devices.

And my question was - If it isn't "normal" why does this resort (and others) advertise it as a plus for their clients?
Louisa, virtually everyone I talked with here in Germany said the same: "How could the parents have left their small children alone without hiring a sitter?"
The resorts in yourlink do offer both babysitting and baby listening service. They don't encourage the vacationers to leave their babies alone at night without supervision.
I suppose the offered baby listening service is being done thoroughly too, with nannies having both babyphones and regularly touring the rooms.
I don't know if a baby listening service was offered in Praia da Luz too.

It seems the party of nine at the tapas bar were not very thorough in touring the rooms. One of them didn't even enter the children's room, and also it could never be established if they really checked on the children every twenty minutes.
The whole timeline is totally confusing.

jmo

[Charon]

Please, let's stop short of implanting anything! I believe it was just yesterday when there was a show on about microchips in animals causing a cancer risk. I don't have any animals right now so I did not really watch. "A hint to the sufficient is wise," someone I once knew used to say.


Well said. As far as know, does these implants only serve to scan identity. (Info Pet) To my knowledge are they not TRACKING devises and are therefor useless in this regard. You can only scan the poor child's corpse afterwards to confirm her ID which you just as well could have done with DNA.

I co-own a vehicle tracking company, and yes it would have been marvelous tracking people with implants, but I simply do not know of current technology small enough to serve this purpose. I haven't been to any "mark of the beast" sites lately either. :D

Look, bottom line is, for eons have PARENTS been the tracking devises and the children, who never asked to be there, enjoyed the safety PARENTS provided. Even animals would leave their young not to get drunk at the nearest waterhole, but to hunt for food to feed their young. We as human beings have become pathetic and yeah blame the world all you like, but maybe we should wake up and smell the fertiliser.

For those who demand "sources", go find your own. I'm here to debate, not to educate you on my time. What is an OPINION anyway if you gotta "prove" its origen. Rediculous.

[Eagle1]

Back to this Madeleine case:

Why, in one news report, was it reported Madeleine was sleeping between the twins when a diagram of the rooms has been showing that they slept in separate beds?
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_03/mccanngraphicES2009_800x622.jpg

I am a bit confused by this.

I can picture the kids possibly switching beds and Maddie having been between the twins, or, just as likely, reporters just got some facts a bit wrong. I remember playing with an older sister when I was two. She was the mastermind of course. I willingly went along with whatever she said. Thanks for the link with the diagram of the apartment. And for the ideas about criminals possibly removing a dog's ear, etc. BTW, are you by any chance really a doctor? If that's too personal, never mind.

[Jayelles]

Louisa, virtually everyone I talked with here in Germany said the same: "How could the parents have left their small children alone without hiring a sitter?"
The resorts in yourlink do offer both babysitting and baby listening service. They don't encourage the vacationers to leave their babies alone at night without supervision.
I suppose the offered baby listening service is being done thoroughly too, with nannies having both babyphones and regularly touring the rooms.
I don't know if a baby listening service was offered in Praia da Luz too.

It seems the party of nine at the tapas bar were not very thorough in touring the rooms. One of them didn't even enter the children's room, and also it could never be established if they really checked on the children every twenty minutes.
The whole timeline is totally confusing.

jmo

Nobody "tours the rooms" with a baby listening service. They do not enter the rooms at all. They only listen at the door for a crying child. I have personal experience of using this service. The McCanns were going in and looking at their children.

I have already explained why it is unlikely that they used babyphones (resort is very spread out and the devices would probably be out of range).

Perhaps you missed the article I posted which was written by someone who actually stayed at the apartments at the same time as the McCann:-

In their defence, they may have been expecting, as advertised in Mark Warner brochures, a ‘listening service’. Staff told us that the service had been discontinued because the apartments were too spread out.


http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/2007/05/my_experience_o.html


Maybe "no-one" in Germany would do this but you cannot really measure the McCanns against what is normal behaviour for a German.

[Eagle1]

[quote=Charon;8996471]...........................

Look, bottom line is, for eons have PARENTS been the tracking devises and the children, who never asked to be there, enjoyed the safety PARENTS provided.

Even animals would leave their young not to get drunk at the nearest waterhole, but to hunt for food to feed their young. We as human beings have become pathetic and yeah blame the world all you like, but maybe we should wake up and smell the fertiliser................. [quote]

Right. Even wild animals wouldn't leave their young alone, unless absolutely necessary, to get food for them.

Some at the UK Sunday Mirror forum say when they heard about possible Morocco sightings, 5 or 6 days after the disappearance was reported, Gerry smirked, and the couple didn't go there for months (?) Am I correct in my assumption they'd been through there on a "world tour" holiday? So why would he smirk? It turned out the man witness knew Gerry's brother. Maybe he heard the name and assumed the man was just trying to get in on the act, get his 15 min of fame? I'm not stating that as a fact, just beating the bushes. Another question on that subject, why would Kate have had "an instinct" that Maddie had been taken to Africa, before these two alleged sightings there?

Uninvolved peoples' facial impressions, that it was a smirk, are probably pretty reliable.

Most of us may care a lot more than those parents do. I doubt they would be online trying to help find anyone. Don't anyone try to drag us down to their level thinking they need defending. They seem to need consciousness-raising.

[docwho3]

I can picture the kids possibly switching beds and Maddie having been between the twins, or, just as likely, reporters just got some facts a bit wrong. I remember playing with an older sister when I was two. She was the mastermind of course. I willingly went along with whatever she said. Thanks for the link with the diagram of the apartment. And for the ideas about criminals possibly removing a dog's ear, etc. BTW, are you by any chance really a doctor? If that's too personal, never mind.
Not a real doctor. Years ago I liked a sci fi TV show series about a "time lord" (time traveler) called "Doctor Who" and chose that name for an online ID. Others had the same idea before me so I had to add a number after the name and so I became docwho3. Oddly enough that relates to this case in a way. I read one news article that claimed Madeleine was a fan of the show (probably the new remake version of the show.) I would have thought her too young for that so the article probably got it wrong.

[Louisadelmar]

Not a real doctor. Years ago I liked a sci fi TV show series about a "time lord" (time traveler) called "Doctor Who" and chose that name for an online ID. Others had the same idea before me so I had to add a number after the name and so I became docwho3. Oddly enough that relates to this case in a way. I read one news article that claimed Madeleine was a fan of the show (probably the new remake version of the show.) I would have thought her too young for that so the article probably got it wrong.

When my son was 3 he was a big Dr. Who fan. Even dressed as him one Halloween. But that was the old version of the show. The new one seems a bit esoteric for a little one. On the other hand, I haven't watched it a lot so maybe it isn't.

OT but - It's like Red Dwarf. Loved it when they had no budget and had to carry the show with great writing. Hated the new, big budget/special effects version.

[cat840]

OT but - It's like Red Dwarf. Loved it when they had no budget and had to carry the show with great writing. Hated the new, big budget/special effects version.

Totally agree.

I saw a little snippet of an American version of "the Office" which gave me the chills. All the charm was gone. Maybe a litte snippet was too little... but I had had enough.

[Jayelles]

Here is one compassionate article:-

Let the grieving McCanns be
By LINLEY BONIFACE - The Dominion Post | Monday, 24 September 2007

Four months ago, it was hard to believe life could get worse for Kate and Gerry McCann. Their daughter, Madeleine, had disappeared from their Portuguese holiday apartment, presumably taken by a stranger. As the days wore on, it was impossible to be as convinced as the McCanns apparently were that Madeleine would be found alive; impossible to imagine that the coda to this story could be anything other than the discovery of a body.

SNIP

Six years ago, just like the McCanns, my husband and I left our small daughter asleep in a holiday apartment – in Italy, rather than Portugal – while we had dinner at a restaurant, checking on her every half hour. Did we make an error of judgment? Clearly not, because everything turned out fine for us. And if it hadn't? I refuse to think about it. I have no idea how Kate McCann is feeling now, thankfully, and I don't want to know. But there is one thing I'm certain of: the rest of us have made it worse for her.



It's a good article and it made me recall another recent news item about a woman who had a physical and mental disability. Her childhood had been difficult and she had grown up enduring the taunts of bullies, but she made a life for herself, had a simple job and eventually, she was able to live on her own. She learned to live with the occasional taunts of ignorant people and was reasonably happy.

However, her health was poor and one day, she collapsed just outside her home. As she lay dying, a man approached her and started to taunt her. She didn't respond, so he unzipped his trousers and urinated on her. As a final insult, he sprayed her with shaving foam.

These tabloid journalists should take a good hard look at themselves for IMO, they are no better than this vile creature who would without hesitation nor compunction, inflict further suffering on a fellow human being who is at the lowest point in his/her life.

ETA - the news article about the dying woman is here (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1284824,00.html). The background information about her childhood was from an interview with her brother on tv.

[andU]

Here is one compassionate article:-




It's a good article and it made me recall another recent news item about a woman who had a physical and mental disability. Her childhood had been difficult and she had grown up enduring the taunts of bullies, but she made a life for herself, had a simple job and eventually, she was able to live on her own. She learned to live with the occasional taunts of ignorant people and was reasonably happy.

However, her health was poor and one day, she collapsed just outside her home. As she lay dying, a man approached her and started to taunt her. She didn't respond, so he unzipped his trousers and urinated on her. As a final insult, he sprayed her with shaving foam.

These tabloid journalists should take a good hard look at themselves for IMO, they are no better than this vile creature who would without hesitation nor compunction, inflict further suffering on a fellow human being who is at the lowest point in his/her life.

ETA - the news article about the dying woman is here (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1284824,00.html). The background information about her childhood was from an interview with her brother on tv.

I so agree with what you have said, Jayelles. Many times all another human being needs is an outstretched hand, not a hand out. Many times they get slapped in the face with insults and shoved or kicked aside. We are a pitiful lot!

[Pelicanette]

I do not see this as being such a complex case. The JonBenet Ramsey case was extremely complex. But this appears to be a case of an abduction. There is nothing to indicate otherwise, IMO.

Someone asked about the most critical part of the timeframe. IMO, it is the time when the cover up of a death would be carried out, and most people who think Madeleine died and several people participated in the disposal of her body and cover up of the crime have to admit that it would be done during the time the principals were having dinner.

To clean up, cover up and dispose of a body, as well as hatch a plan betwen several people to elude the police would be quite an undertaking under any circumstances and would take, IMO, hours of uninterrupted time. I do not see where they had that.

On the other hand, an abduction can take just a few seconds.

[Pelicanette]

It amuses me how the ones who impugn the parents, always delight in describing them and their friends as drunk or at least tipsy and go on and on about the number of bottles of wine drunk. Hello? They then say the parents and a few of the friends covered up a death and disposed of a body an came up with a story at the same time. Not too likey. As for the UK Mirror board, there are some truly vile posters there who simply hate the McCanns and exhibit a great deal of jealousy toward Kate. Hate and Jealousy are not proof of anything. And they have been beating up the McCanns for months for not hiring private investigators. It appears they did hire private investigators months ago. Now, what will the haters and liars say?

[Pelicanette]

So many go on and on about the parents being negligent in leaving the small children alone. That may be true, but abduction is a much more serious infraction. What we have here is an abuction of a child who may still be alive. It is important that Madeleine be found. The other stuff is just a distraction that is going nowhere. Obviously neither country is going to prosecute the McCanns or take the twins from them. Many, many other parents leave their children alone for short or even long periods of time and still have their children. It may not be right, but it is done. As for Madeleine, she needs to be found, dead or alive. I think she is in the hands of a predator but may still be alive. Also, children are abucted in broad daylight, from shopping malls, from homes where their parents sleep, etc. It is not always the child who is unattended who is taken.

[Jayelles]

It amuses me how the ones who impugn the parents, always delight in describing them and their friends as drunk or at least tipsy and go on and on about the number of bottles of wine drunk. Hello? They then say the parents and a few of the friends covered up a death and disposed of a body an came up with a story at the same time. Not too likey. As for the UK Mirror board, there are some truly vile posters there who simply hate the McCanns and exhibit a great deal of jealousy toward Kate. Hate and Jealousy are not proof of anything. And they have been beating up the McCanns for months for not hiring private investigators. It appears they did hire private investigators months ago. Now, what will the haters and liars say?

That's a good point about being drunk in charge of a murder cover-up...

However, the alcohol consumed has also been the subject of some spin. The 14 bottles is supposedly the total amount consumed by the party of nine between their lunch and evening meals. That kind of put a different slant on things.

People DO drink on holiday. Sampling the local vino is one of the pleasures of a beach holiday.

[Jayelles]

So many go on and on about the parents being negligent in leaving the small children alone. That may be true, but abduction is a much more serious infraction. What we have here is an abuction of a child who may still be alive. It is important that Madeleine be found. The other stuff is just a distraction that is going nowhere. Obviously neither country is going to prosecute the McCanns or take the twins from them. Many, many other parents leave their children alone for short or even long periods of time and still have their children. It may not be right, but it is done. As for Madeleine, she needs to be found, dead or alive. I think she is in the hands of a predator but may still be alive. Also, children are abucted in broad daylight, from shopping malls, from homes where their parents sleep, etc. It is not always the child who is unattended who is taken.


I also believe she might still be alive and will continue to believe this as long as there is a chance she might be so.

[andU]

I also believe she might still be alive and will continue to believe this as long as there is a chance she might be so.


I believe, too, that she is alive. I hope someone in authority is checking out all of the reported sightings, just in case.

[Pelicanette]

Now that we know the parents hired private investigators about four months ago, I am sure the dectectives are busy chasing down leads and possible sightings. I also hope they have been snooping around in Portugal, although Madeleine may be far from there by now. It is so refreshing to be on a forum where people are not completely antagonistic toward the McCanns. I think we all agree they should not have left the children alone, and they have said as much themselves, but the real culprit is the person who took Madeleine and either killed her or may still have her. THAT is the important crime that was committed, IMO.

In spite of all the rumors of "masses" of hair, "bodily fluids," blook in various rooms and in the car, etc., nothing has panned out. It all appears to have been nothing but rumor and innuendo. As far as we know, there is no proof that Madeleine is dead. That may be likely, given the lapse of time, but it is not proven. Most pedophiles kill the child within the first few hours, but her body has not been found, and some pedophiles keep the child for days, even years, if they can get away with it. I hate to see the police giving up on trying to find Madeleine alive.

[Pelicanette]

It is partly based on the facts as we know them, partly on statistics, and partyly on hunches, but my theory is that Madeleine was observed by a predator pedophile for hours if not days before she was taken. I think that the person may work for the resort or have some connection to it, such as a deliveryman, repairman, mailman, etc. I say this because this person probably was able to blend in with others, to not look suspicious or out of place at the resort and could come and go without being stopped. He may have had a key, although it may not have been necessary if the flat was left unlocked. I think he had a car parked very nearby and was able to get in and out in a hurry. He obviously wanted Madeleine, because other children were unattended, and her could have taken one of the twins. He did not go after any other child, apparently, and he chose Madeleine, an older child, over the twins. Someone of her age and sex and appearance is probably his preference.

Since her body has not been found dumped on the side of the road, tortured and left in an humilating pose or posture, I do not think he is what is called a sadistic pedophile. I think he is one of the more passive, gentle types who probably imagines that he loves the child and even justifies his act by thinking that he is better for her than her parents and that she loves him in return. That is why I think there is a strong chance she may be alive and with him now.

Yes, it could be a woman who took her, but women usually want infants. I think the abductor is probably young or appears younger than his true age and probably very affable and harmless-looking. He probably speaks English well enough to communicate with foreigners, if he is a local. He could be an expat who has lived in Portugal a while.

I think he is familiar with the resort and its layout and also familiar with the surrounding town. If her body had just been tossed in the ocean, it would have washed up on the beach. I think that if he got rid of her body in the ocean, he has access to a boat and a container of some sort and took her far out to sea to dispose of the body. Hopefully, she is still alive and he has not abused her beyond the usual way one would expect of a pedophile.

He must be single and live alone or his family could have been away at the time of the abduction. My best guess is that he lives alone and perhaps travels. He could have a reason to have left the country. He is not without resources, I would imagine.

I think he had a plan for what he would say if a parent walked into the flat while he was there such as "Oh, I must be in the wrong room" or "Did you ring for a repairman?" If he had been seen outside with her, he could have said, "Is this your little girl? I found her wandering outside."

But I think he watched the parents and their friends and struck just when nobody was around and got out very quickly and into a waiting car.

[docwho3]

When my son was 3 he was a big Dr. Who fan. Even dressed as him one Halloween. . . . So I guess Madeleine could have been old enough to enjoy the show.

. . .OT but - It's like Red Dwarf. Loved it when they had no budget and had to carry the show with great writing. Hated the new, big budget/special effects version. I agree. I loved the low budget versions of doctor who and the red dwarf much better.

[Jayelles]

It is partly based on the facts as we know them, partly on statistics, and partyly on hunches, but my theory is that Madeleine was observed by a predator pedophile for hours if not days before she was taken. I think that the person may work for the resort or have some connection to it, such as a deliveryman, repairman, mailman, etc. I say this because this person probably was able to blend in with others, to not look suspicious or out of place at the resort and could come and go without being stopped. He may have had a key, although it may not have been necessary if the flat was left unlocked. I think he had a car parked very nearby and was able to get in and out in a hurry. He obviously wanted Madeleine, because other children were unattended, and her could have taken one of the twins. He did not go after any other child, apparently, and he chose Madeleine, an older child, over the twins. Someone of her age and sex and appearance is probably his preference.

Since her body has not been found dumped on the side of the road, tortured and left in an humilating pose or posture, I do not think he is what is called a sadistic pedophile. I think he is one of the more passive, gentle types who probably imagines that he loves the child and even justifies his act by thinking that he is better for her than her parents and that she loves him in return. That is why I think there is a strong chance she may be alive and with him now.

Yes, it could be a woman who took her, but women usually want infants. I think the abductor is probably young or appears younger than his true age and probably very affable and harmless-looking. He probably speaks English well enough to communicate with foreigners, if he is a local. He could be an expat who has lived in Portugal a while.

I think he is familiar with the resort and its layout and also familiar with the surrounding town. If her body had just been tossed in the ocean, it would have washed up on the beach. I think that if he got rid of her body in the ocean, he has access to a boat and a container of some sort and took her far out to sea to dispose of the body. Hopefully, she is still alive and he has not abused her beyond the usual way one would expect of a pedophile.

He must be single and live alone or his family could have been away at the time of the abduction. My best guess is that he lives alone and perhaps travels. He could have a reason to have left the country. He is not without resources, I would imagine.

I think he had a plan for what he would say if a parent walked into the flat while he was there such as "Oh, I must be in the wrong room" or "Did you ring for a repairman?" If he had been seen outside with her, he could have said, "Is this your little girl? I found her wandering outside."

But I think he watched the parents and their friends and struck just when nobody was around and got out very quickly and into a waiting car.


Some great points!

Regarding choosing the child. I agree a woman would probably want an infant over a 4 year old but also, the twins are probably still in nappies (diapers) and that might be seen as an added complication to a male. Especially if he needed to smuggle the child some distance and/or keep the child for a period of time.

Good ideas about the "excuses" which could be offered if the intruder were caught. If I caught a guy in my home or holiday apartment, my first thought would be that he was after my jewellery/passport/money.

I also think that a holiday resort would be a great hiding place for a stranger since they are bascially full of strangers.

I know the McCanns are hoping (i.e. the least nightmare scenario) that Maddie has been stolen to order for a childless couple and is being cared for by them. It's certainly a feasible option - if perhaps also the least likely. Still, if a child-thief were looking for a child, he would blend in very nicely in a holiday resort and could easily peruse the possibilities from behind a pair of sunglasses and watch the habits of the families from a sunbed whilst drawing the minimum of attention to himself.

[cat840]

Someone asked about the most critical part of the timeframe. IMO, it is the time when the cover up of a death would be carried out

And in this case exactly which timeframe is this?
Do you know when the supposed death occured?

[Eagle1]

................
As for Madeleine, she needs to be found, dead or alive. I think she is in the hands of a predator but may still be alive. Also, children are abucted in broad daylight, from shopping malls, from homes where their parents sleep, etc. It is not always the child who is unattended who is taken.

Right, Madeleine needs to be found, dead or alive, instead of so many of us wasting valuable time discussing right or wrong. (Leaving the kids was definitely wrong in these parents' circumstances. No question.)

At least you're not insulting- trying to drag us all down to their level of stupidity, by claiming we did things just as bad.

Children being abducted in all kinds of circumstances just does not change that one glaring basic fact we should not be wasting time trying to change in the first place. We really did not do anything quite this bad and We're distracted and off track when trying to normalize all these doctors who were leaving small children unattended in a strange place. If anything good can come of this, maybe it will be the world's learning to consider how many doors/windows that could be broken into are on a hidden side of a building, for the safety of a whole sleeping family, not for leaving babies alone. Some laws about that should be enacted immediately if not sooner, "yesterday", if they don't in fact already have them. This should be a wake up call.

Not that we could think of anything, probably, that would help find her.

I'm still wondering what happened in Morocco, how many people they knew there, if indeed they had been there, and why Kate would have "an instinct" that Maddie was taken there. Didn't get to that board this weekend, but there are vile people everywhere. Might be some truth there because they're closer to things than we are geographically. More familiar with local customs and attitudes on that side of the world, etc.

[Pelicanette]

I see no need for either "side" to be insulting or bullying. Other opinions do exist, and shouting them down is not debate or discussion. IMO, it is proof that the shouter is not too confident of his own arguments.

Some one asked about the timeline again. Here is my opinion of the timeline. The one thing the Portuguese police have said is that there is a FOUR HOUR timeframe from when Madeleine was last seen by someone outside the family to when she was reported missing.

That is not much time. Those who think she was killed by her parents or met with an accidental death have to assume that such an event happened between 6 and a little after 10 p.m.

Most people who think that the parents covered up the death, also think that the parents had some help. So between the hours of 6 and 10:00, they think Madeleine died in some way, the parents reacted in shock and horror and fear, the parents cleaned up any evidence of a death, the parents debated what to do about it, the parents enlisted help from one or two of their friends and explained what happened, the parents and the friends decided what to do, one or more of the parents and/or friends managed to dispose of the body in a place where it would not be found and they would not be seen doing it, and AT THE SAME TIME, the parents and their friends made repeated visits to the restaurant table, checked on the other kids, and appeared perfectly normal in all respects.

If Madeleine was last seen alive at 6 p.m. by someone outside the family, it is not too likely she died immediately after six, so the timeframe is shortened to less than four hours. If it happened as soon as the family got back to the flat, that would be about 6:15 or so, and that would be the earliest possible time for her to die. If she died of an overdose of sleep medication, as some say, THAT WOULD BE AFTER EIGHT OR NINE, which could shorten the timeframe for all that was done to a mere hour or two!

Even if you think that friends would help to cover up a murder or accidental death, which I do not, the timeframe is a big problem. Even if you think that the parents could do all that and still remain calm and appear normal at dinner, which I do not, the timeframe is very problematic.

This the main reason I think that the parents are innocent and an abductor took Madeleine.

[Pelicanette]

That is an excellent point about a pedophile abductor preferring an older child who is not still in nappies.

[dallasvic]

I have become truly hopeful Maddie is alive now since the third sighting. That nanny that said Kate was so distrait she could hardly speak when Maddie went missing hopefully will change peoples minds that they did not do anything with her.Also that guy that was a suspect that said he was not there well there are people that say he was.So he has been lying.
So many things are coming into play.:)

[cat840]

Those who think she was killed by her parents or met with an accidental death have to assume that such an event happened between 6 and a little after 10 p.m.


Why? Some think Maddie is still alive.

[rashomon]

Maybe "no-one" in Germany would do this but you cannot really measure the McCanns against what is normal behaviour for a German.
I didn't say "no one" in Germany would behave like the McCanns, only that the (random number of) people I happened to talk to said they wouldn't have left such small children alone.
But there are people here too who do leave their children alone unsupervised. I have known some parents of kindergartners who left their small children alone for hours, even whole nights, to go out and party. I think it is less a cultural than a personal choice, these parents being more the exception than the rule.

Jayelles, you said one could see the patio door from the tapas bar. But wasn't there a wall which kept the patio door from view?

jmo

[rashomon]

Where was Madeleine allegedly seen alive? In a hotel in Morocco? But would a kidnapper have felt save enough to show himself with her in public?

jmo

[dallasvic]

Where was Madeleine allegedly seen alive? In a hotel in Morocco? But would a kidnapper have felt save enough to show himself with her in public?

jmo


Have you not read the updates odette has posted ? There have been 3 sightings.

[Jayelles]

I didn't say "no one" in Germany would behave like the McCanns, only that the (random number of) people I happened to talk to said they wouldn't have left such small children alone.
But there are people here too who do leave their children alone unsupervised. I have known some parents of kindergartners who left their small children alone for hours, even whole nights, to go out and party. I think it is less a cultural than a personal choice, these parents being more the exception than the rule.

Jayelles, you said one could see the patio door from the tapas bar. But wasn't there a wall which kept the patio door from view?

jmo


I didn't say the patio door was visible from the Tapas bar. I don't know if it is or not because it's hard to tell from an aerial photo where you can't gauge the height of shrubs. I said the patio door faced the pool area where the bar and restaurant were located and that it would be visible to "guests" sitting there (i.e. in the pool area).

There would be some kind of balcony wall because that's fairly standard for safety. I doubt it would be terribly high though. You can usually see over the balcony wall sitting down. No pleasure in sitting on a balcony staring at the balcony wall and the sky above it!

However, the whole patio door discussion is IMO a moot point since the intruder almost certainly would have entered through the rear entrance which was conveniently obscured from the road by two walls and some trees.

The photos we've seen of the resort don't show many people but most likely, the resort would have been buzzing with people. The person who stayed at the hotel at the same time as the McCanns and wrote the blog about the facilities said that the tapas bar was noted for its cuisine and that guests queued up in the morning to book a table for the evening. There was likely guests dining in the restaurant, guests drinking in the bar (perhaps waiting for their table or having just eaten) and there might have been music playing too. OTOH, the rear entrance to the apartment wouldn't have been so busy IMO.

[rashomon]

Have you not read the updates odette has posted ? There have been 3 sightings.
I have read them now. What I find confusing: the woman who allegedly saw Madeleine in the last sighting claims she was dragged by a Muslim woman in a headscarf, but at the same time says the woman was a blonde. Wouldn't a headscarf have covered her hair?
And again, wouldn't it be extremely risky for kidnappers to show themselves in the public with the kidnapping victim only a few days after the abduction?

jmo

[andU]

I have read them now. What I find confusing: the woman who allegedly saw Madeleine in the last sighting claims she was dragged by a Muslim woman in a headscarf, but at the same time says the woman was a blonde. Wouldn't a headscarf have covered her hair?
And again, wouldn't it be extremely risky for kidnappers to show themselves in the public with the kidnapping victim only a few days after the abduction?

jmo

Maybe the perp felt safe enough in another country thinking that no one would notice/recognize Maddie - especially since the parents have been the prime suspects.

[rashomon]

Some one asked about the timeline again. Here is my opinion of the timeline. The one thing the Portuguese police have said is that there is a FOUR HOUR timeframe from when Madeleine was last seen by someone outside the family to when she was reported missing.

That is not much time. Those who think she was killed by her parents or met with an accidental death have to assume that such an event happened between 6 and a little after 10 p.m.

Most people who think that the parents covered up the death, also think that the parents had some help. So between the hours of 6 and 10:00, they think Madeleine died in some way, the parents reacted in shock and horror and fear, the parents cleaned up any evidence of a death, the parents debated what to do about it, the parents enlisted help from one or two of their friends and explained what happened, the parents and the friends decided what to do, one or more of the parents and/or friends managed to dispose of the body in a place where it would not be found and they would not be seen doing it, and AT THE SAME TIME, the parents and their friends made repeated visits to the restaurant table, checked on the other kids, and appeared perfectly normal in all respects.

If Madeleine was last seen alive at 6 p.m. by someone outside the family, it is not too likely she died immediately after six, so the timeframe is shortened to less than four hours. If it happened as soon as the family got back to the flat, that would be about 6:15 or so, and that would be the earliest possible time for her to die. If she died of an overdose of sleep medication, as some say, THAT WOULD BE AFTER EIGHT OR NINE, which could shorten the timeframe for all that was done to a mere hour or two!

Even if you think that friends would help to cover up a murder or accidental death, which I do not, the timeframe is a big problem. Even if you think that the parents could do all that and still remain calm and appear normal at dinner, which I do not, the timeframe is very problematic.

This the main reason I think that the parents are innocent and an abductor took Madeleine.[/B]
Very convincing argumentation, Pelicanette. ITA - the narrow time frame makes it virtually impossible for the parents to have carried all this out.
Also, not for the life of me can I imagine that they would have been able to play the happy and carefree couple at the tapas bar, knowing their daughter had just died.

jmo

[One2Snoop]

I have read them now. What I find confusing: the woman who allegedly saw Madeleine in the last sighting claims she was dragged by a Muslim woman in a headscarf, but at the same time says the woman was a blonde. Wouldn't a headscarf have covered her hair?
And again, wouldn't it be extremely risky for kidnappers to show themselves in the public with the kidnapping victim only a few days after the abduction?

jmo

Maybe the woman wasn't even muslim and was only wearing a disguise to throw people off? :shrug:

[Pelicanette]

I really have no agenda in this discussion. I think I look at it very objectively. It makes no difference to me whether the parents are guilty or not, on a personal level.

I am trying to look at the evidence as we now know it and the possibilities. Logic and reason must be applied. Proof is very different from feelings and emotions.

Here are my main problem with the parents as murderers theory:
1. They do not fit any type of profile or statistic for parents who kill their children. They are not young, inexperienced, isolated, without support, etc. There is no history of family abuse or violence as far as we know.
2. What would be their motive? Everyone says they loved their children. Why would they want to do away with one of them after seeing her through a year of colick and after going through ITV to become parents?
3. Why would they plan a murder while on holiday? It is just too preposterous, in my opinion.

But what about an accidental death either from over-discipline, a fall or too much medication?

1. Accidents happen. I don't think people automatically panic over an accident. Perhaps they might have feared the possibility of charges of some kind, but would that have come into their minds if their beloved daughter died in an accident? I think they would be very remorseful and shocked and hurt. I just don't see them switching into high gear to cover it all up.
2. If they lost their daughter suddenly and unexpectedly, could they go on with the dinner party, the drinking, the laughter and appear totally normal? I don't think so.
3. Just what kind of accident was it anyway? Proof would mean that the police would have to show how Madeleine died and where, and as of now, they cannot even be sure she is dead.

What about an abduction?
1. This is the most logical scenario. Madeleine could have been observed by someone who struck at the most opportune moment.
2. Abductions can happen very quickly and leave little or no forensic evidence.
3. The abductor could have taken Madeleine without her waking, if she had been given a mild sedative, or he could have told her that she was going to get a surprise or that he was taking her to her parents to keep her quiet.
4. A car could have been waiting very nearby on the street to whisk her away.

[andU]

Maybe the woman wasn't even muslim and was only wearing a disguise to throw people off? :shrug:

If the perp(s) have online access and read up; they may either let her go or kill her - I think they would have a hard time selling her, if that was ever the intention. But, if they realize that the LE are closing in, they might be forced to make a move of some kind.

[rashomon]

Maybe the perp felt safe enough in another country thinking that no one would notice/recognize Maddie - especially since the parents have been the prime suspects.
But a blonde child clearly not of Arab origin would be noticed very much in Morocco, especially when in company of Arab adults.
Also, at the time when Madeleine was sighted in Morocco, the parents were not yet suspects.
But suppose Madeleine is in in fact in Morocco, then the kidnappers must have smuggled her over the border by plane or ship. I think bribing customs officers at the frontier should be fairly easy in in a country like Morocco, where there exists a lot of corruption.

It is simply inconceivable that Madeleine vanished without a trace, abducted from a resort buzzing with people. The perp must have known about the McCanns' daily routine, but how could he have known about it if he wasn't vacationing there himself so he could have watched them?
It is true that strangers can freely enter these resorts, but still this stranger would have had to be 'loitering' near the McCanns a lot to find out about their routine.

[rashomon]

Maybe the woman wasn't even muslim and was only wearing a disguise to throw people off? :shrug:
But in that case, wouldn't she have hidden her blonde hair completely under the headscarf to play it safe?

jmo

[cat840]

1. They do not fit any type of profile or statistic for parents who kill their children.


Can you provide a source for that statement please.

[Louisadelmar]

Can you provide a source for that statement please.

http://www.deathreference.com/Ce-Da/Children-Murder-of.html
Familial Homicides
The psychiatrist P. T. D'Orban classifies the factors that play a role in filicides (the killing of a son or daughter) into three categories: family stress, including a family history of mental illness and crime, parental discord, parental maltreatment, and separation from one or both parents before age fifteen; social stress, involving financial and housing problems, marital discord, a criminal record, and living alone; and psychiatric stress, comprising a history of psychiatric symptoms, a psychiatric diagnosis, and a suicide attempt after the offense.
A history of child abuse or neglect is the most notable risk factor for the future death (i.e., murder of a child). Scholars note that the best predictor of future violence is a past history of violence. Most child abuse killings fall into the category of battering deaths, resulting from misguided, but brutal, efforts to discipline, punish, or quiet children. According to a study conducted by Murray Levine and associates, 75 percent of maltreatment-related fatalities occur in children under age four. Very young children are at the greatest risk because they are more physically vulnerable and less likely to be identified as at-risk due to their lack of contact with outside agencies. Shaken baby syndrome, in which the child is shaken so violently that brain damage can occur, takes the lives of many young children.
There are numerous risk factors for child murder. The criminal justice expert Neil Websdale has identified several situational antecedents such as a history of child abuse and/or neglect, a history of domestic violence, poverty, inequality, unemployment, criminal history, the use of drugs and/or alcohol, and the availability of weapons. Male and nonwhite children are more likely to be victims of child murder than female and white children.
According to the American psychiatrist and expert on child murder, Phillip Resnick, typical neonaticidal mothers (mothers who kill their children the first day of birth) are young, unmarried, are not suffering from psychotic illness, and do not have a history of depression. They characteristically conceal their pregnancy, often denying that they are pregnant. Other researchers have concluded that most deaths are the result of unwanted pregnancies, and that many mothers are overwhelmed by the responsibilities and have little or no support system. A number of women have serious drug and/or alcohol problems and lose control in a fit of intoxication.
Mental disorder is a major factor in the killing of children. In Fatal Families (1997), Charles Ewing notes that psychotic infanticide and filicide perpetrators are most likely to be suffering from postpartum psychosis, while parents who batter their children to death are more likely to suffer from nonpsychotic mental illnesses, such as personality disorders, impulse control disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, and/or substance abuse disorders. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (1994) explains that postpartum psychotic episodes are characterized by command hallucinations to kill the infant or delusions that the infant is possessed. Other researchers report that mothers who kill their newborn are often suffering from dissociative disorders at the time of the birth because they feel overwhelmed by the pregnancy and perceived lack of support, necessitating their handling the traumatic experience on their own. However, when mothers kill older children, it is the children who have mental aberrations or psychiatric conditions rather than the mother, who in fear of her life or the lives of other family members, feels she has to end the life of her child.
According to Levine and colleagues, not only are males predominantly the perpetrators, but the presence of a male in the household increases the risk of maltreatment-related fatalities, especially from physical abuse. Fathers kill infants when they cry excessively and the father has little tolerance for such disruption due to the influence of alcohol or drugs, or because he is suffering from antisocial personality disorder. Some fathers kill their son when he is old enough to challenge the father's authority and they physically fight. Occasionally, fathers have killed their daughters following rape or sexual exploitation, when they threatened to reveal the abuse.
The rate of child murder is greatly elevated in stepfamilies. Martin Daly and Margo Wilson found that whereas young children incurred about seven times higher rates of physical abuse in families with a stepparent than in two-genetic-parent homes, stepchildren were 100 times more likely to suffer fatal abuse. In a sample of men who slew their preschool-age children, 82 percent of the victims of stepfathers were beaten to death, while the majority of children slain by genetic fathers were killed by less violent means.
_________________

[Sharon]

I really have no agenda in this discussion. I think I look at it very objectively. It makes no difference to me whether the parents are guilty or not, on a personal level.

I am trying to look at the evidence as we now know it and the possibilities. Logic and reason must be applied. Proof is very different from feelings and emotions.

Here are my main problem with the parents as murderers theory:
1. They do not fit any type of profile or statistic for parents who kill their children. They are not young, inexperienced, isolated, without support, etc. There is no history of family abuse or violence as far as we know.
2. What would be their motive? Everyone says they loved their children. Why would they want to do away with one of them after seeing her through a year of colick and after going through ITV to become parents?
3. Why would they plan a murder while on holiday? It is just too preposterous, in my opinion.

But what about an accidental death either from over-discipline, a fall or too much medication?

1. Accidents happen. I don't think people automatically panic over an accident. Perhaps they might have feared the possibility of charges of some kind, but would that have come into their minds if their beloved daughter died in an accident? I think they would be very remorseful and shocked and hurt. I just don't see them switching into high gear to cover it all up.
2. If they lost their daughter suddenly and unexpectedly, could they go on with the dinner party, the drinking, the laughter and appear totally normal? I don't think so.
3. Just what kind of accident was it anyway? Proof would mean that the police would have to show how Madeleine died and where, and as of now, they cannot even be sure she is dead.

What about an abduction?
1. This is the most logical scenario. Madeleine could have been observed by someone who struck at the most opportune moment.
2. Abductions can happen very quickly and leave little or no forensic evidence.
3. The abductor could have taken Madeleine without her waking, if she had been given a mild sedative, or he could have told her that she was going to get a surprise or that he was taking her to her parents to keep her quiet.
4. A car could have been waiting very nearby on the street to whisk her away.

That would all summarise my way of thinking and stance. It is how I approach most things in life. The most logical scenario given all possible scenarios based on probabilities. ie given what we know, the probability of the parents even being able to carry this out and get on with the night is spectatularly small. The chance of them being able to convince others to help them is almost non existant. etc etc v. probability of abduction very high.

[Sharon]

http://www.deathreference.com/Ce-Da/Children-Murder-of.html
Familial Homicides
The psychiatrist P. T. D'Orban classifies the factors that play a role in filicides (the killing of a son or daughter) into three categories: family stress, including a family history of mental illness and crime, parental discord, parental maltreatment, and separation from one or both parents before age fifteen; social stress, involving financial and housing problems, marital discord, a criminal record, and living alone; and psychiatric stress, comprising a history of psychiatric symptoms, a psychiatric diagnosis, and a suicide attempt after the offense.
A history of child abuse or neglect is the most notable risk factor for the future death (i.e., murder of a child). Scholars note that the best predictor of future violence is a past history of violence. Most child abuse killings fall into the category of battering deaths, resulting from misguided, but brutal, efforts to discipline, punish, or quiet children. According to a study conducted by Murray Levine and associates, 75 percent of maltreatment-related fatalities occur in children under age four. Very young children are at the greatest risk because they are more physically vulnerable and less likely to be identified as at-risk due to their lack of contact with outside agencies. Shaken baby syndrome, in which the child is shaken so violently that brain damage can occur, takes the lives of many young children.
There are numerous risk factors for child murder. The criminal justice expert Neil Websdale has identified several situational antecedents such as a history of child abuse and/or neglect, a history of domestic violence, poverty, inequality, unemployment, criminal history, the use of drugs and/or alcohol, and the availability of weapons. Male and nonwhite children are more likely to be victims of child murder than female and white children.
According to the American psychiatrist and expert on child murder, Phillip Resnick, typical neonaticidal mothers (mothers who kill their children the first day of birth) are young, unmarried, are not suffering from psychotic illness, and do not have a history of depression. They characteristically conceal their pregnancy, often denying that they are pregnant. Other researchers have concluded that most deaths are the result of unwanted pregnancies, and that many mothers are overwhelmed by the responsibilities and have little or no support system. A number of women have serious drug and/or alcohol problems and lose control in a fit of intoxication.
Mental disorder is a major factor in the killing of children. In Fatal Families (1997), Charles Ewing notes that psychotic infanticide and filicide perpetrators are most likely to be suffering from postpartum psychosis, while parents who batter their children to death are more likely to suffer from nonpsychotic mental illnesses, such as personality disorders, impulse control disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, and/or substance abuse disorders. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (1994) explains that postpartum psychotic episodes are characterized by command hallucinations to kill the infant or delusions that the infant is possessed. Other researchers report that mothers who kill their newborn are often suffering from dissociative disorders at the time of the birth because they feel overwhelmed by the pregnancy and perceived lack of support, necessitating their handling the traumatic experience on their own. However, when mothers kill older children, it is the children who have mental aberrations or psychiatric conditions rather than the mother, who in fear of her life or the lives of other family members, feels she has to end the life of her child.
According to Levine and colleagues, not only are males predominantly the perpetrators, but the presence of a male in the household increases the risk of maltreatment-related fatalities, especially from physical abuse. Fathers kill infants when they cry excessively and the father has little tolerance for such disruption due to the influence of alcohol or drugs, or because he is suffering from antisocial personality disorder. Some fathers kill their son when he is old enough to challenge the father's authority and they physically fight. Occasionally, fathers have killed their daughters following rape or sexual exploitation, when they threatened to reveal the abuse.
The rate of child murder is greatly elevated in stepfamilies. Martin Daly and Margo Wilson found that whereas young children incurred about seven times higher rates of physical abuse in families with a stepparent than in two-genetic-parent homes, stepchildren were 100 times more likely to suffer fatal abuse. In a sample of men who slew their preschool-age children, 82 percent of the victims of stepfathers were beaten to death, while the majority of children slain by genetic fathers were killed by less violent means.
_________________

Thanks for that.

It is appropriate that these parents are given a pass due to them not fitting into the profile of an abusive parent. The distinction is extreemly significant.

Contrary to what some posters may cling to.....loving parents who are sane, happy, no medical, maritual, financial etc problems do not turn around and murder their children nor do they cover up an accidental death as if they were paid killers with no emotions.

Some people point and say.....you are just giving them a pass because they are rich or educated etc......but the truth is.....they are not even remotely included in the profile of the type of parent who kills their own children.

I hope we dont have to keep arguing that the parents did it....especially in light of the fact that the child is not officially dead and there is a chance she is alive.

[dallasvic]

I believe Maddie is alive some where.

[sharlock]

Very good comments, everyone! I have nothing to add except: IMO, I would never use a microchip on a human (Revelations & the Number). But, to each his/her own. I understand the reasoning for the thought and I embrace anyone who feels it necessary to safeguard their loved ones in such a way. It is a sad fact that evil exists everywhere. Evil works never takes a vacation.

What about a tracking device in a peice of jewelery such as a neclace, bracelet or anklet. Is your aversion due to the intrusive nature of a micro chip or to the tracking device in general?

[cat840]

It is appropriate that these parents are given a pass due to them not fitting into the profile of an abusive parent. The distinction is extreemly significant.

But, in this case the choice is not between an abusive or not abusive parent. It is between a parent, a complete stranger or an acquaintance.

(From Louisa's link)
"Studies of murdered children under twelve years old reveal that nearly six out of ten are killed by their parents. Half of these are under the age of one. The next highest category of perpetrator is a friend or acquaintance."

So it is not clear to me that how we can dismiss the parents based on statistics. Following your reasoning we could give all strangers a pass based on the stats above. I'm not saying we should though.

[Sharon]

But, in this case the choice is not between an abusive or not abusive parent. It is between a parent, a complete stranger or an acquaintance.

(From Louisa's link)
"Studies of murdered children under twelve years old reveal that nearly six out of ten are killed by their parents. Half of these are under the age of one. The next highest category of perpetrator is a friend or acquaintance."

So it is not clear to me that how we can dismiss the parents based on statistics. Following your reasoning we could give all strangers a pass based on the stats above. I'm not saying we should though.

No Cat, we dont know the stats or more importantly the profile of all strangers. And we are not interested in stats per say.....we are interested in `profiles`.....a big distinction that should not be lost.

But of course we are all free to interpret the information as we see fit.

[Eagle1]

What about a tracking device in a peice of jewelery such as a neclace, bracelet or anklet. Is your aversion due to the intrusive nature of a micro chip or to the tracking device in general?

There's an idea! Good one. Toddlers usually don't wear jewelry, but if something could be fitted into a little cross, maybe.

[Eagle1]

[QUOTE=cat840;8998783]But, in this case the choice is not between an abusive or not abusive parent. It is between a parent, a complete stranger or an acquaintance. [QUOTE]


I have to agree that probably an acquaintance for SOME REASON abducted Maddie,
knew the parents were doctors, maybe also IS a doctor, left a syringe in a cupboard, possibly to suggest the parents had drugged Maddie, which I wouldn't doubt because otherwise how could they be sure she wouldn't wake up and wander off looking for them?

About the timeline, one of the doctor friends claimed he witnessed Maddie being put to bed about 7 pm. Probably they're just trying to stick together as they probably would if sued for malpractice. Which raises the question that could be somewhat relevant, were any of them ever sued for malpractice? Might they have an enemy who didn't win such a suit, or among colleagues? Why Morocco? Had they visited anyone there?

Rash, I too hadn't read that there were 3 alleged sightings, just the two at a GAS STATION. I hadn't heard about any blonde disguized as a Muslim with a blonde child. Sounds like a stupid disguize, doesn't it?

So I too am hopeful Maddie's alive somewhere. Quite traumatized, for sure.

When she was with the playgroup in the video, WHAT WAS THE QUESTION someone asked her which she took so seriously that she was biting her lip? I forget who told us this was in a play group, sorry, several pages back. It must have been a somewhat strange question, right?

Maybe it figures somehow. Someone could have been observing the play group to pick out a child, if they didn't know and have a grudge against the McCanns?

[cat840]

And we are not interested in stats per say.....we are interested in `profiles`

How do you know which profiles that are of interest if not based on statistics?

[Sharon]

How do you know which profiles that are of interest if not based on statistics?

I will let someone else answer this!

[andU]

What about a tracking device in a peice of jewelery such as a neclace, bracelet or anklet. Is your aversion due to the intrusive nature of a micro chip or to the tracking device in general?

My aversion is based upon the Bible teaching of every person being required to have a 'mark' put on their body (required by the enemy). I won't do it.

[andU]

I will let someone else answer this!

Not sure, but I think a profile and history of a person may be the key, not necessarily stats. Basically, if a person had a history of behaving in a certain manner, he/she would likely repeat that behavior.

[Jayelles]

Not sure, but I think a profile and history of a person may be the key, not necessarily stats. Basically, if a person had a history of behaving in a certain manner, he/she would likely repeat that behavior.

I think both are probably relevant. I would imagine much of the ability to create a profile would have to be based upon statistical evidence.

[Eagle1]

My aversion is based upon the Bible teaching of every person being required to have a 'mark' put on their body (required by the enemy). I won't do it.

Wed. AM, I just read at another forum there have been 4 alleged sightings? Someone even posted a picture, where an elderly woman in Morocco is carrying a little girl on her back, you can tell only from the two little ponytails on each side of her head, and I've asked permission to bring the link to it here. Then there's also something about Belgium, DNA from a milkshake bottle or cup being tested. I haven't been able to keep up with all of them either, and haven't seen anything from Odette in a few days.

Re a mark on your body, jewelry isn't exactly the body. And anyway, what if the prediction has been very slightly mistranslated, so that whoever takes the beast's mark, or the number of his name, just means whoever goes along with his corrupt and destructive "wicked ways"? We have our "traditions of men" interpretations which in some cases may have to be revised a little when we see the thing happening not exactly as we may have always been led to imagine. Since technology was first dreamed of, we started saying maybe the mark is a computer chip.

Has to be something in the tech age, because of a clue in Micah 4, or maybe Micah 1, where some spies at the archeology dig in Lachish evidently schemed to bug some Christian woman to "look upon" her, called in some translations Israel. She in a sense represents Israel or the church, and it sounds like a hint about technology, we have to admit. How else could they enjoy their voyeurism together? Archeology dig? I heard there is one, in an alumnae bulletin from a church college, which is not where I learned any of these scriptures. I had to do all my own digging, a completely original work. Surprises like someone having visited that archeology dig may have started me off. Never liked that guy and wouldn't be surprised at anything that may come up. The beast is evidently covert now, is to be "revealed". Will come to his end when some kind of judgement sits and, in my fave version, "None shall help him." He has 3 henchmen, "evil shepherds", still alive to be judged when The Ancient of Days retakes His throne, and I forget, is that maybe Daniel 7 ?

In the oft-quoted scripture "If my people who are called by my name...will .....and turn from their WICKED WAYS..." 2nd Chron.7:14 I THINK, we see that the devil in sheeps' clothing posing as one of the messengers of light has fooled much of the church insto some kind of wicked ways. (Just a wild guess, could it be spying on laity?) The location of the info about his posing as a clergyman is in 2nd Corinthians11. Ancient Daniel is told, chapter 12 I believe, to "seal up the words", some of them not meant to be understood until happening, when people run to and fro on the earth, something like that.

Forgive us, any who're not into this kind of sleuthing, but I think it's every bit as interesting as forums, although not too many, even among our religious leaders, delve into these details as I have. Men might prefer to stick with "the traditions of men" interpretations just to get along with each other. Some denominations have declared the Left Behind books heresy, I've heard, an example of how we can differ about interpretations until something happens to definitely pinpoint things. "That day shall not come" until the man of sin is revealed, we know for sure Playing God. 2nd Thess. 2. Some call him the final antichrist. Just a little "fill-in" of background information.
Anyone found KATE McCann's b.d.? Maddie's is May 12, 2003. I'm not the only one mildly wondering. Someone else at another forum asked.

[JBRnotforgotten]

does anyone know if this link is truly out of Kate's diary?


http://www.pugbus.net/artman/publish/09137002_11_mccanndiary.shtml

[Jayelles]

does anyone know if this link is truly out of Kate's diary?


http://www.pugbus.net/artman/publish/09137002_11_mccanndiary.shtml

No. It's a spoof. Someone with a really sick sense of humour. Apart from anything, the Sun most certainly has not been publishing scans of Kate's diary.

I can't understand the mentality of a person who finds humour in someone else's misery. People go on about bullying as though it was a problem in schools but adults are ten times worse IMO.

[JBRnotforgotten]

Okay Thanks .
It had me a little confused , some sicko is getting laughs out of a childs nightmare..

[Zoey]

does anyone know if this link is truly out of Kate's diary?


http://www.pugbus.net/artman/publish/09137002_11_mccanndiary.shtml


I seriously doubt that it is, and whomever is responsible for that website has some deep mental problems, IMO.

[Jayelles]

I looked up the site details on whois and the site ownership details are withheld. No surprises there I suppose. It's easier to be a bully behind the mask of anonymity.

Ooh this makes my blood boil.

[andU]

I looked up the site details on whois and the site ownership details are withheld. No surprises there I suppose. It's easier to be a bully behind the mask of anonymity.

Ooh this makes my blood boil.

Me too, Jayelles! What a cold heart this 'person' has! Maybe the police would be interested in taking a look at it, huh?

[Louisadelmar]

I remember similar 'spoofs' about Patsy Ramsey. Don't understand either those who do it or who think it's funny.

[Eagle1]

I remember similar 'spoofs' about Patsy Ramsey. Don't understand either those who do it or who think it's funny.

I don't think anyone thinks it's funny.

I finally said "I don't even want to hear it", the attempts to spoil little DannieLynn Birkhead's first birthday, (and now we don't hear another thing since the b.d.'s over) and I still call myself an FS about Patsy Ramsey, so I'm not making any snap judgements in this case either. Such as that they just want to sell a lot of papers and/or someone's jealous of her. They'd have to come up with "proofs".

Had she really lost a lot of weight and changed her personality? I'm looking again at the picture of Maddie biting her lip, about which someone here said it was in a play group. A teacher (?) had asked her some question she was taking very seriously. Looking at it again, she looks awfully sad to be in a play group.

What could the question have been?

I hear there's been 4 alleged sightings now, one in Belgium, and one a picture of a Moroccan family but you can't really see the face of the blonde child being carried. Surely they wouldn't have asked if she'd like to spend some time with people in a different country or anything like that? I printed out the picture, btw, in case you're wondering, at http://edition.com.com/interactive/world/0705/gallery.missing.girl... which link may be too old to still work now. She just looks awfully sad and older than her years, especially compared to earlier pictures.

[Eagle1]

Too late to edit my "4" alleged sightings, I decided to take a look at Jameson's and someone there says "dozens", so, don't know how many there really have been.

The man who said he only helped Murat (?) design a web site and hasn't spoken with him in a year was found to have talked to him on the phone (right?) the night Maddie disappeared. Round and round we go.

[Sharon]

I don't think anyone thinks it's funny.

I finally said "I don't even want to hear it", the attempts to spoil little DannieLynn Birkhead's first birthday, (and now we don't hear another thing since the b.d.'s over) and I still call myself an FS about Patsy Ramsey, so I'm not making any snap judgements in this case either. Such as that they just want to sell a lot of papers and/or someone's jealous of her. They'd have to come up with "proofs".

Had she really lost a lot of weight and changed her personality? I'm looking again at the picture of Maddie biting her lip, about which someone here said it was in a play group. A teacher (?) had asked her some question she was taking very seriously. Looking at it again, she looks awfully sad to be in a play group.

What could the question have been?

I hear there's been 4 alleged sightings now, one in Belgium, and one a picture of a Moroccan family but you can't really see the face of the blonde child being carried. Surely they wouldn't have asked if she'd like to spend some time with people in a different country or anything like that? I printed out the picture, btw, in case you're wondering, at http://edition.com.com/interactive/world/0705/gallery.missing.girl... which link may be too old to still work now. She just looks awfully sad and older than her years, especially compared to earlier pictures.

Eagle, having a 4 year old myself, I can tell you that sometimes for no apparent reason they have a serious expression. They could even be needing to go to the toilet but not wanting to stop playing, or tired, or thinking about what they want to do next.

[Pelicanette]

I heard a British reporter say today that the Moroccan girl is not Maddy. But then I heard other sources say they were not sure about that.

[Eagle1]

Hi, Sharon, I was wondering if anyone here might have a barely-4-yt-old.
Would yours have said, "Mummy, I'm having the best time ever"? And you're right, all the possible reasons you list for her getting a serious moment are logical. I've had 5 of them, btw, but they're getting almost old enough to join AARP. Still,

I wish I could remember who posted about having seen the video, who just might know what the leader's question to Maddie was. I have a rather large version of the picture of her biting her lip and it looks more sad, maybe even shocked, than puzzled.

Thanks for the reply. If my strong hunch is correct, though, finding out exactly what the question was could be extremely important. It must have been something unusual, at the very least. I don't suppose she'd been acting up and got scolded or was threatened a bogey man would get her,etc. Kate was quoted as claiming Maddie was hyperactive.

Question to Jayelles and any other Europeans, do they use meds like Ritalin, probably in liquid form, for hyperactive children? Is it customary to keep diaries? In other words, how did the police know to ask for Kate's?

[Eagle1]

....................
Here is another strange twilightzone twist to this case:
". . . The body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland. . ."

". . . It was uncovered by a passer-by between Oberbren and Niederwil on Saturday. It had apparently been dug up by wild animals. Von Aesch is thought to have shot a man who challenged him shortly after he buried the body, then turned the gun on himself. Police later discovered he had been on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared in May. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Note: I added the bolding in the quote.


When this news came out, I believe it said Von Aesch's white van was seen parked IN FRONT OF the McCanns' lodging for a day or two (?) before Maddie disappeared. Someone correct me if I have any of that slightly wrong. Just wanted to remind us, while we're waiting for something more. This is still a possibility.

[LindaA]

Would you carry your passport with you if you were going to the beach or to the pool? If so, what would you do with the passport when you were in the water?

Beachwear doesn't really lend itself to the carrying of a passport!

Jay, I honestly don't know what I would do if I were going to the beach or pool; that's something I never do on vacations in Europe. (I live in a coastal state of the US and grew up going to the beach. It lost its attraction long ago.) I might carry my passport in a beach bag or purse if I were leaving the premisis. If I were going to a pool on the grounds I probably wouldn't take it with me.

[Eagle1]

..........On the one where she is biting her lip, it appears that the videographer had just asked her a question. IMS she smiled a little then seemed to ponder the question then bit her lip as if puzzled, then smiled again and skipped back to her friends. Again I will try to find the clip. I think you'll get a very different impression after seeing it. jmo


I still say, my large printout of the lip-biting frame from the video shows a way more abnormally SAD than puzzled expression.

I saw a little of the video, where she finally looked up at the adult, whether it was a videographer or an employee who regularly led the playgroup, sort of out of the cornder of her eye. I didn't see her ever smile or skip back to join the group. Anyone else?

That videographer could have been a go-between from the kidnapper(s) just as easily as the big man behind "baldy" could have been the Russian. Who claimed he only helped Murat set up a web site about a year ago and hadn't talked with him since, but police found there had been a call the very night Madeleine disappeared, I just read yesterday somewhere.

Another reminder of older facts of the case, why did Kate first yell something like " THEY'VE taken her" ? (Totally impersonal question. I have no preconceived opinions about Kate whatsoever.)

[Jayelles]

Hi, Sharon, I was wondering if anyone here might have a barely-4-yt-old.
Would yours have said, "Mummy, I'm having the best time ever"? And you're right, all the possible reasons you list for her getting a serious moment are logical. I've had 5 of them, btw, but they're getting almost old enough to join AARP. Still,

I wish I could remember who posted about having seen the video, who just might know what the leader's question to Maddie was. I have a rather large version of the picture of her biting her lip and it looks more sad, maybe even shocked, than puzzled.

Thanks for the reply. If my strong hunch is correct, though, finding out exactly what the question was could be extremely important. It must have been something unusual, at the very least. I don't suppose she'd been acting up and got scolded or was threatened a bogey man would get her,etc. Kate was quoted as claiming Maddie was hyperactive.

Question to Jayelles and any other Europeans, do they use meds like Ritalin, probably in liquid form, for hyperactive children? Is it customary to keep diaries? In other words, how did the police know to ask for Kate's?

Ritalin is used here but there is a lower age limit. I think it's six. The police probably knew about Kate's diary because she was seen writing it:-

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/?c=WORLD&jp=mhcwqlqlaucw&d=2007-09-13


Mrs McCann was frequently seen writing her journal in private moments after Madeleine went missing from the family’s holiday apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz on May 3.


I don't keep a diary, but we have a close friend who has kept a diary faithfully for over 40 years. My husband is an executor of this friend's estate and we have strict instructions to destroy the diaries on his death.

[LindaA]

Jay, I honestly don't know what I would do if I were going to the beach or pool; that's something I never do on vacations in Europe. (I live in a coastal state of the US and grew up going to the beach. It lost its attraction long ago.) I might carry my passport in a beach bag or purse if I were leaving the premisis. If I were going to a pool on the grounds I probably wouldn't take it with me.

I just wanted to add that I don't see the connection between what I would do while swimming and what the lady who was dining with the McCanns would do while dining at a restaurant. Swimming and eating out are two different things. Sounds like you're just trying to pick an argument.

[docwho3]

When this news came out, I believe it said Von Aesch's white van was seen parked IN FRONT OF the McCanns' lodging for a day or two (?) before Maddie disappeared. Someone correct me if I have any of that slightly wrong. Just wanted to remind us, while we're waiting for something more. This is still a possibility. You are correct.

It remains a possibility too, as far as I know.

[One2Snoop]

snip

Another reminder of older facts of the case, why did Kate first yell something like " THEY'VE taken her" ? (Totally impersonal question. I have no preconceived opinions about Kate whatsoever.)

Yes a reminder of older facts is good, but its also good to read the entire story surrounding those words. She didn't just say, "They've taken her, They've taken her".....

Quoted from Nanny Pennington who was working at the resort the evening Maddie went missing.

"When we were coming out we saw Kate and she was screaming:
"They've taken her. They've taken her!"

Asked if it was the only thing she said, Miss Pennington answered: "It might not have been the first thing she said. But she definitely said it. She also repeated Madeleine's name and said: 'She's gone, she's gone'.

"I couldn't really believe what I was seeing - she was just so distraught. She was screaming out and tears were running down her face.

"Everyone else was running around trying to help.

"Kate and her friend, who was looking after her, were the only ones who weren't out looking for Madeleine."

While Gerry McCann leapt into action and began frantically searching the resort, she said his wife remained outside the apartment, shuddering with tears and unable to move.

Asked why she thought Mrs McCann might have shouted "They've taken her", Miss Pennington said:

"I'm not really sure. But maybe she saw some people looking at Madeleine earlier that day, and she immediately thought that they must have taken her."

The nanny was one of three staff who steered Mrs McCann to the nearby reception area, where they asked her to describe what Madeleine was wearing.

But she remained so hysterical that she could hardly communicate.

"We get missing children all the time, and I have seen plenty of hysterical mothers. But none of them were like Kate."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=483715&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

[Sharon]

I still say, my large printout of the lip-biting frame from the video shows a way more abnormally SAD than puzzled expression.

........Another reminder of older facts of the case, why did Kate first yell something like " THEY'VE taken her" ? (Totally impersonal question. I have no preconceived opinions about Kate whatsoever.)

Eagle, I dont interpret her video as abnormally sad....it could just be her thing that she does or did at that minute of footage. And unless you knew this child, how do you know what she looked like in different emotions.

My daughter often puts on non happy faces. Last night she was collapsed in misery over not being allowed to help fry something!!!! If I would have videoed it, you would have thought she was the saddest person on earth.

Dont you remember your own kids doing this sort of thing. I mean at the age of 4.....you can get upset over a lollypop or being tired.

[Eagle1]

Ritalin is used here but there is a lower age limit. I think it's six. The police probably knew about Kate's diary because she was seen writing it:-

[url]http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/?c=WORLD&jp=mhcwqlqlaucw&d=2007-09-13[/url

She was frequently seen writing in her (I should have noticed how you spelled it, suddenly forgot so I'll substitute another word) journal after Madeleine's disappearance.

Okay I get it. I used to type, frantic, mostly theories I guess, whenever I was upset. Must be the same kind of thing. And no wonder they wanted to see it.

I just read at another place where I'd been asked a question that the little girl on the elderly woman's back in Morocco wasn't Madeleine.

[Eagle1]

Today at a department store there was a little girl about to turn 4, same age as Maddie when she disappeared. This child was fidgeting a lot, giving her mom a bit of a hard time, who was buying her a lot of new little clothes. So the Mom said should I buy you all this when you treat me like that? I had to ask if she knew of the Madeleine case, as we were standing in line for a cashier, and she said yes.

I asked if the little girl in the store would say, "Mummy, I'm having the best time ever," unless someone put the words right into her mouth. She said no, she'd probably just say "This is fun." Exactly the kind of thing I was thinking, that ours wouldn't have said such a bunch of words when really having fun. I'm sure they knew we could tell and it was okay. I was glad of the opportunity to check this out with a mother and child the same age as Maddie when she disappeared. Wasn't that uncanny?

When they were finally done paying, the little girl wanted a bag too, like her Mom had, so the clerk gave her one, and took something out of the bigger bag to put into it for her to carry.

[Jayelles]

I just wanted to add that I don't see the connection between what I would do while swimming and what the lady who was dining with the McCanns would do while dining at a restaurant. Swimming and eating out are two different things. Sounds like you're just trying to pick an argument.

I am really NOT trying to pick an argument Linda. Far from it. I absolutely take exception to your suggestion that I am. Please, PLEASE don't start this petty stuff here.

I was merely trying to explain why there would be nothing unusual about a British woman forgetting her handbag in a restaurant - it probably had little of value in it. We tend to have the habit of leaving passports/travellers cheques in hotel safes due to the fact that much of our time on a typical sun-seeking vacation is spent lazing at the beach or beside the pool. A lot of pick-pocketing goes on at the beaches - even poolsides too. In one hotel we stayed at in Spain, four people got their wallets stolen at the poolside one afternoon and there was a mugging just outside the hotel too. We didn't feel safe there and never went back.

[andU]

The latest update from Odette (Thank You!) is so frustrating! Gerry and Kate are under a gag order and cannot be interviewed. Can you imagine what they must be feeling? They don't have the freedom of speech! They are being isolated by a country that is not their homeland.

[Moms4Justice]

If you scroll ALL the way to the bottom of the page it says


"The fine print: the editorial content on this page is fictional. It is presented for entertainment purposes only. We cannot be held responsible for the actions of anyone who takes this sort of thing seriously."

It is sick that someone could possible get entertainment from Maddy being missing!

does anyone know if this link is truly out of Kate's diary?


http://www.pugbus.net/artman/publish/09137002_11_mccanndiary.shtml

[andU]

If you scroll ALL the way to the bottom of the page it says


"The fine print: the editorial content on this page is fictional. It is presented for entertainment purposes only. We cannot be held responsible for the actions of anyone who takes this sort of thing seriously."

It is sick that someone could possible get entertainment from Maddy being missing!

Yes it is sick and I think we should delete all links to the site just to keep the hits from counting up on it. If that being is on an ego binge, we sure wouldn't want to feed it. There is a lot of psyco psyckness in the world!

[Jayelles]

There was an interesting and potentially rather exciting article in the Daily Express today about how an organisation called JARIC (Joint Air Reconnoissance Intelligence Centre) might be able to help a) in the search for Madeleine and b) "to lift the cloud of suspicion" from the McCanns.

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/20370

“Jaric is a world leader in analysing CCTV, aerial and satellite imagery collected from all over the globe,” he added.
“It should be ordered to overfly Praia da Luz immediately and collect any aerial imagery of it that can be found, dating back to May 2, 2007, as well as any images that may be extant.

“It should also be instructed to examine any satellite images of the target zone after May 2.
“It is perfectly possible that the European Commission’s satellites which track fishing boats may also be able to shed light on Madeleine’s fate.

“If, God forbid, her body has been buried they could help identify spots where it is. And he said GCHQ could also help – if Madeleine was snatched by a gang of paedophiles.



According to the article, the organisation has the capabilities of doing this and woulld be willing to do it, but they need to be intructed to do it by the Prime Minister or Defence Secretary.

WOW! Wouldn't that be something?

[andU]

There was an interesting and potentially rather exciting article in the Daily Express today about how an organisation called JARIC (Joint Air Reconnoissance Intelligence Centre) might be able to help a) in the search for Madeleine and b) "to lift the cloud of suspicion" from the McCanns.

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/20370




According to the article, the organisation has the capabilities of doing this and woulld be willing to do it, but they need to be intructed to do it by the Prime Minister or Defence Secretary.

WOW! Wouldn't that be something?

I wonder what it would take to sway the thinkin gof the PM or the DS and make this happen?

[Jayelles]

Just one last word on Diane Webster and the carrying of passports - I forgot to say that the travel companies actually advise you to to leave your passport and traveller's cheques in the hotel safe.

http://www.frommers.com/cgi-bin/WebX?128@@.eedcaa2

My golden rule, wherever I go (and I'm from the UK, so this applies when I visit the US too) is to put the passports, airline tickets, spare credit card and any excess cash in the safe. First job after check-in. Then you're done. Enjoy Spain!


http://www.passport.gov.uk/press-2006-07-20.asp

Recent research conducted for IPS shows that almost a quarter of people questioned carry their passport around with them while on holiday, and nearly ten per cent leave it locked or hidden in their suitcase rather than keeping it in a secure place such as a hotel safe.



http://www.barcelona-tourist-guide.com/en/general/passport.html

Upon arrival at the hotel, put your passport in the hotel safe.

[One2Snoop]

How maddening and utterly ridiculous - Portuguese Secrecy Laws? What about the Portuguese Press and all those unofficial leaks made by unamed LE? Are they going to be held to the same standard as the McCann's? Grrrr :cuss:

Taken from the latest article in the updates thread....

McCanns told: be quiet or face jail

metro.co.uk - Friday, September 28, 2007
The parents of Madeleine McCann have been threatened with jail if they talk out about their missing daughter, it emerged today.

Kate and Gerry McCann could be imprisoned for a year if they break Portuguese secrecy laws.

They now fear this could mean no more TV appeals for information about the four-year-old.

[bullmoose]

How maddening and utterly ridiculous - Portuguese Secrecy Laws? What about the Portuguese Press and all those unofficial leaks made by unamed LE? Are they going to be held to the same standard as the McCann's? Grrrr :cuss:

Taken from the latest article in the updates thread....

McCanns told: be quiet or face jail

metro.co.uk - Friday, September 28, 2007
The parents of Madeleine McCann have been threatened with jail if they talk out about their missing daughter, it emerged today.

Kate and Gerry McCann could be imprisoned for a year if they break Portuguese secrecy laws.

They now fear this could mean no more TV appeals for information about the four-year-old.
This sounds like a case of CYA by the Portugese Police; they have their theory, woe to anyone who dares to speak differently. It makes me sure I would never go on holiday to such a country, where in theory, they can throw you in jail for disagreeing with them. JMHO

[Eagle1]

You can't win for losing, in some foreign countries. Glad I keep my feet on terra firma in the good old USofA.

[Eagle1]

Someone at the UK Mirror forum asked if it's legal in the UK to insure kids.

Jayelles?

I'm certainly not implying that's a factor in this case, of course!

[Pelicanette]

The behavior of the Portuguese police in this matter has been awful and disgraceful. I think they leaked things that were untrue to deflect criticism of them and to try to cover up their own mistakes. I also think they tried to bully and badger Kate and Gerry into confessing. Now they are leaking truly disgusting things without a scintilla of proof. I would not want to vacation in Portugal.

[Pelicanette]

Children can be insured in the US, but taking out life insurance on a small child is rather rare, especially in significant sums. Some people have life insurance on each family member, to cover burial expenses, etc., and that would include the children. But I think it is rare for someone to take out insurance in significant amounts on a small child.

[Louisadelmar]

How maddening and utterly ridiculous - Portuguese Secrecy Laws? What about the Portuguese Press and all those unofficial leaks made by unamed LE? Are they going to be held to the same standard as the McCann's? Grrrr :cuss:

Taken from the latest article in the updates thread....

McCanns told: be quiet or face jail

metro.co.uk - Friday, September 28, 2007
The parents of Madeleine McCann have been threatened with jail if they talk out about their missing daughter, it emerged today.

Kate and Gerry McCann could be imprisoned for a year if they break Portuguese secrecy laws.

They now fear this could mean no more TV appeals for information about the four-year-old.

I wondered about this when they first returned home and it was said they couldn't talk about the case because of the secrecy laws. My first reaction was if I were the McCanns I'd say anything I wanted since I wasn't Portuguese, wasn't in Portugal, and they could take their secrecy laws and put them in their oubliette.

But then I wondered if the EU had any kind of reciprocity in obeying various countries laws etc?

[Sharon]

I wondered about this when they first returned home and it was said they couldn't talk about the case because of the secrecy laws. My first reaction was if I were the McCanns I'd say anything I wanted since I wasn't Portuguese, wasn't in Portugal, and they could take their secrecy laws and put them in their oubliette.

But then I wondered if the EU had any kind of reciprocity in obeying various countries laws etc?

Its getting to a point of no return with the Portuguese and the McCanns....but Im sure that the McCanns do not want to totally end the relationship to the extent that they cant reenter the country. I think it is becoming a mess and a pr blunder for the Portuguese and they are only making it worse for themselves. The more they try to bury this, the more of a pressure pot they are creating. This case will not go away which is what they are trying to achieve at this point imo.

[Jayelles]

Someone at the UK Mirror forum asked if it's legal in the UK to insure kids.

Jayelles?

I'm certainly not implying that's a factor in this case, of course!

I think you can insure pretty much anything - including your children! I think some people may take out "little" life insurance policies on family members so that the costs of a funeral would be covered should the unthinkable happen.

A person cannot be declared dead here until they have been missing for 7 years. I think if anyone was going to "bump off" a family member for the insurance money, they'd make sure the body was easy to find.

[Jayelles]

I wondered about this when they first returned home and it was said they couldn't talk about the case because of the secrecy laws. My first reaction was if I were the McCanns I'd say anything I wanted since I wasn't Portuguese, wasn't in Portugal, and they could take their secrecy laws and put them in their oubliette.

But then I wondered if the EU had any kind of reciprocity in obeying various countries laws etc?

We have an extradition agreement within the EU. The Portuguese police can demand they return at any time and the British police would assist if necessary.

I've always had this feeling that things could turn ugly 'internationally speaking'. Note how there are no leaks coming from the British police. The Portuguese police are not working to British standards of discretion or professionalism imo.

I'm not sure who would intervene or at what point they would do so. I know Gordon Brown is kept up to date with developments but that's not unusual in a case involving a British citizen who is dealing with foreign LE at this level.

[bullmoose]

I think you can insure pretty much anything - including your children! I think some people may take out "little" life insurance policies on family members so that the costs of a funeral would be covered should the unthinkable happen.

A person cannot be declared dead here until they have been missing for 7 years. I think if anyone was going to "bump off" a family member for the insurance money, they'd make sure the body was easy to find.

Here in the USA there are little life insurance policies that they send you pitching almost as soon as your child is born; probably for the same purpose as you've described. Generally this are convertable to normal insurance as the child ages; not miuch money in them; it takes seven years here,too, to have someone declared dead. On a lighter note,a few days ago,in a small town 100 miles or so from here a man received a call from the local hospital telling him he had died the night before. A man of the same age and same first, last, but not middle name had died; the hospital had mistakenly reported one for the other; it may take months for him to straighten the mess out, as he is in the system, the computer mainframes, as dead. His driving license was voided, the home loan he hoped to get is in serious jeoperdy, etc.JMHO:shrug:

[Jayelles]

Here in the USA there are little life insurance policies that they send you pitching almost as soon as your child is born; probably for the same purpose as you've described. Generally this are convertable to normal insurance as the child ages; not miuch money in them; it takes seven years here,too, to have someone declared dead. On a lighter note,a few days ago,in a small town 100 miles or so from here a man received a call from the local hospital telling him he had died the night before. A man of the same age and same first, last, but not middle name had died; the hospital had mistakenly reported one for the other; it may take months for him to straighten the mess out, as he is in the system, the computer mainframes, as dead. His driving license was voided, the home loan he hoped to get is in serious jeoperdy, etc.JMHO:shrug:

Good heavens about the man who "died". How inconvenient to find out you'd died and didn't notice!

It happens, I know. 20+ years ago, my father underwent major bowel surgery and you can just imagine how surprised I was when I called after his op to find out how he was only to be told that he'd had a good meal and was up walking around the ward chatting to other patients. Yes - it was another patient with the same name. We learned to enquire after Mr Senior from that point onwards.

Regarding the insurance policies - now that you mention it, I think we have the same thing here - little "funeral" policies which convert at the age of 16 to an endowment policy etc. I know my mother had a "little" policy for me when I was a child. It was a very small weekly amount - I recall she used to pay it up months in advance to save the insurance man coming every week. When I was 16 I had to sign papers. I remember this now. I don't know what happened to that policy. I think my mother may still have it. I've never questioned it. If she's going to get a payout on the event of my death - good for her!

[Jayelles]

I don't know what, if anything the European Parliament could do about the handling of the McCann case by the Portuguese police.

I made some checks, and there don't seem to have been any questions raised in the EP so far.

Someone must surely be in a position to question the apparent smear campaign and constant leaks by a police force which has a policy of silence.

They are now threatening the McCanns with 1 year in prison if they speak publicly about the disappearance of their daughter. Ergo, the Portuguese police can continue to "do their thing" and the McCanns have just to accept it in silence.... It's very, very frightening.

[dallasvic]

I don't know what, if anything the European Parliament could do about the handling of the McCann case by the Portuguese police.

I made some checks, and there don't seem to have been any questions raised in the EP so far.

Someone must surely be in a position to question the apparent smear campaign and constant leaks by a police force which has a policy of silence.

They are now threatening the McCanns with 1 year in prison if they speak publicly about the disappearance of their daughter. Ergo, the Portuguese police can continue to "do their thing" and the McCanns have just to accept it in silence.... It's very, very frightening.

:seeya: Hi Jay & Everyone,

I agree that the port. police are making themselves look bad. they have constantly accused the McCann's, but have not been able to back not on claim they have stated.
This fridge thing does not make since either. Why didn't the cadaver dogs alert on the fridge when they were taken into the flat ?:shrug:
As far as the threat of one year in prison if they talk, if it were me and by talking found my child it would be worth it.
Now we have a new person of interest. The guy in the stairway. the guy that seen he said he told a female officer and she did not think it was important enough to turn in.
It seems to me every time they accuse the McCann"s and it falls through, then they pursue other leads and its falls through it's back to the McCann's. A vicious circle.

[JBRnotforgotten]

What I don't understand is why are the wasting all their energy on suspects and not out searching far and wide for Madeleine. Do you think it is possible by someway they know by now she is no longer alive?

It is like the port. police are hellbound on the Mccann's being guilty , to me they are taking away all their rights as parent's looking for their missing daughter.. They should be aloud to reply to all the negative assumptions being made against them and they definetley should be able to talk about Madeleine..

[dallasvic]

What I don't understand is why are the wasting all their energy on suspects and not out searching far and wide for Madeleine. Do you think it is possible by someway they know by now she is no longer alive?

It is like the port. police are hellbound on the Mccann's being guilty , to me they are taking away all their rights as parent's looking for their missing daughter.. They should be aloud to reply to all the negative assumptions being made against them and they definetley should be able to talk about Madeleine..


Hi JBR,

I think she is alive. To many sightings of her in the same area to not be her. The port. police have no clue on what happened to Maddie. This is why in one breath they say the McCann's killed her and in another breath they are looking at a new suspect. This has went on and on since she went missing.

[Eagle1]

How maddening and utterly ridiculous - Portuguese Secrecy Laws? What about the Portuguese Press and all those unofficial leaks made by unamed LE? Are they going to be held to the same standard as the McCann's? Grrrr :cuss:

Taken from the latest article in the updates thread....

McCanns told: be quiet or face jail

metro.co.uk - Friday, September 28, 2007
The parents of Madeleine McCann have been threatened with jail if they talk out about their missing daughter, it emerged today.

Kate and Gerry McCann could be imprisoned for a year if they break Portuguese secrecy laws.

They now fear this could mean no more TV appeals for information about the four-year-old.

I hear they have at least 4 lawyers, all famous ones. Could they talk about it?

[Eagle1]

:seeya: Hi Jay & Everyone,
.................................................. ....
Now we have a new person of interest. The guy in the stairway. the guy that said he told a female officer and she did not think it was important enough to turn in.

It seems to me every time they accuse the McCann"s and it falls through, then they pursue other leads and its falls through it's back to the McCann's. A vicious circle.

First time I've heard anything about a guy in a stairway. Wasn't the McCann's lodging on ground level? Did your informant decide to report it again to another officer?

Whose idea, among the 9 "doctors" was it to go on this trip and leave their children in their rooms, in the first place? I don't suppose anyone knows.

That might be a good question to ask, and also, who was the videographer who, according to elvislives asked Maddie some question that imo really did upset her, but kids that age quickly forget and go about their playing, right?
Was the guy a regular employee or a sub or what? Anyone have a link to that video of the playgroup handy, where Maddie ends up biting her lip?

[Eagle1]

Eagle, I'll see if I can find a link to the home video where these still frames were taken from. I have seen the clips several times and they show a happy smiling Maddie playing with friends and at one point she turned her head and was not smiling which allowed a perfect view of the flash in her iris. That is why the family chose to publicize that particular frame.

On the one where she is biting her lip, it appears that the videographer had just asked her a question. IMS she smiled a little then seemed to ponder the question then bit her lip as if puzzled, then smiled again and skipped back to her friends. Again I will try to find the clip. I think you'll get a very different impression after seeing it. jmo

I'm reading previous pages because I seem to remember getting the video, maybe before elvislives posted this, and I seem to remember a question that maybe could have been understood if I had realized it would become important to me to know what the question was.

Because what if this videographer wasn't a regular employee but a sub, possibly in cahoots somehow with all the other alleged suspects, asking her something akin to would you like to be my little girl, come home with me, not exactly that of course, but I'm sure you get my drift. Seems like he wouldn't have recorded it at all if it was anything suspicious but you never know till you check. If anyone's looking for me today, I'll be somewhere in the previous pages, lol.

[Eagle1]

[QUOTE=Athena;8994800]Thanks Jay. ...............................

I can imagine the McCanns’ dilemma. The ‘dining out club’ was more than a five-minute walk from where the McCanns stayed along cobbled streets or a winding pedestrian path through the apartments. ..............

Plus parents were required to wait until children under two, which includes the McCanns’ twins, were asleep. We talked to parents who said this was enough to put them off the option.[QUOTE]

Toddlers not allowed, huh? And somewhere I just read that the price of the bar and restaurant were included in the price. Someone correct me if I got that wrong. Maybe it was just the babysitting or listening. Also I read somewhere that some of the babysitting service had been discontinued because the apartments were too far apart? Would have have convinced this whole group of parents it was safe to leave kids unsupervised? You wouldn't think doctors would so easily misunderstand things that important.

[Eagle1]

....................

Why didn't anybody hear Kate calling out for Maddie while she was looking for her??:eek:

A friend of mine had a child gone missing and the mothers frantic calls for the daugther was heard all over the neightbourhood to the extent that neighbours started coming to the house to look what was going on.

I've wondered that too. And another thing, how did Kate know "THEY" wouldn't take the twins too while she went back to the bar? I'm assuming she left the twins there in their cots when she went back to the bar yelling 'THEY'VE taken her!"

Am I right that in America, both parents would have a pocket cell phone instead of having to communicate on foot?

[Pelicanette]

No matter what you think of the McCann's decision to leave the children alone in the room, it is not proof of murder or the cover up of an accidental death. Your opinion is yours, but it is not proof of anything at all in that regard.

It is time for fairness in judging the McCanns.

Mark Klaas, who lost his nine year old daughter Polly to a sadistic predator, has said that there is no rule book for how grieving parents behave. He was very pro-active, like Gerry. He was out and about, nailing up posters, talking to the press. He felt he just had to do something active when Polly was taken from her bedroom.

His wife behaved very differently. She was almost catatonic, took to her bed, would see very few people, could not bear to go before the press.

I have observed the parents and other relatives of missing children over the years, and all are accused of "behaving strangely" in one way or another after learning that their children are missing.

Some, like Samantha Runion's mom, literally run down the street shouting at passing cars and trying to talk to people in their houses. Others are in such shock that they can barely move. Some, like Ed Smart, collapse and have to go to the hospital for a while. Others appear to be made of steel and are very stoic.

People behave differently in the face of such a trauma. Mark Lunsford was quiet and sober and said little but he was also out looking for his daughter Jessica.

It is just not fair to imagine what we would do in a similar circumstance and blame anyone who does something different. None of us knows what we would do.

One thing is certain: the parents have to carry on. They have to be strong eventually, especially if they have other children. And sooner or later, they have to get back to their normal lives or to as much normalcy as they can find.

None of us can judge them, because we have not walked in their shoes.

[Eagle1]

I'm sure you're not talking to any of us in particular, Pelicanette, probably just heard that from someone else and fell for it, but just for the record, I think we're being way more than fair. We haven't said much negative at all compared to the UK Mirror forum. I haven't kept up there but looked in this morning and they had a new thread, a video, with a lot of points we can't honestly deny. We need to be honest. You might not want to turn on speakers, that wailing song throughout is so distracting and monotonous. I may go thru it again w/out my speakers.

I don't think I've ever in my more-than-70-yrs been called unfair. Usually it's "sweet" which at times felt like a negative, like naive or stupid, when I was young. You've only been here a short time, so be fair with fellow posters who're, some of us loosing sleep worrying about Maddie.

I for one had to get up in the middle of the night and get back online.

Thanks, Sharon, and any others who've been trying to make me feel better about that video, but let's keep in mind my age, grandmother, have seen lots and lots of 4 yr olds, and trust me, this expresion was unique!

I may be the only one who really noticed how unique. Will you look again, everyone? Anyone have a link to the video? I remember hearing a voice which must have been the question but thought I'd see it again and didn't really delve into exactly what was said. Now I can't find it again. The questionner just may be a possible suspect!

[Eagle1]

Probably this will turn out to be another dead end like everything else but at http://www.crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6683&pa... SCROLL to top of 2nd pg, ...there's a picture of a man and a woman. Yes, the one on the right is a man. His grown son says the family haven't seen him in 15 yrs, since he met this Aurora woman.

Another thought, for which you'll probably think I'm off my meds, the picture of the child who looks to me more like a 2 yr old than either 4 or 5 has a cover story, possibly true, possibly not, if they may be actually smugglers bringing a child into their area instead of helping a relative out of it. They have some luggage, notice. Remember there were two different people who said they saw a child at a gas station in Morocco. Hopefully Interpol is still investigating the picture which was sent to them.

Wasn't it the woman sighting witness who said the little girl asked the man she was with, "When can I see Mommy?" Now I hear there are alleged sightings all over Malta. Anyone have a map and know how to post it? How far away is that?

Those of us with hope Maddie's still alive just may be right after all. Other children in Europe have disappeared and there have been sightings reported. Some underground?

[One2Snoop]

I think I want to throw-up. :cuss: Right Dallasvic - why didn't the cadaver dogs hit on the fridge? OMG! Well at least the newspaper got it right this time -The Portuguese police have come up with their sickest slur yet! :flamemad:

'Maddie's body kept in fridge'

thesun.co.uk - By ONLINE REPORTERS - September 29, 2007

PORTUGUESE cops came up with their sickest slur yet against the McCanns yesterday — claiming little Maddie’s body may have been kept in a FRIDGE before being dumped.

They are working on the extraordinary theory that Kate killed her daughter accidentally and that dad Gerry helped her cover up.

And they make the bizarre claim that Maddie’s body was somehow stored in a fridge in one of the apartments at the holiday complex where she went missing in May.

[dallasvic]

:rose: Maddie is the Victim Here:rose:
http://www.24dash.com/_images/news/26398/m_PA_madeleine_mccann.jpg
We are all here for Maddie.We all have our own theories and options. I do believe we are all passionate poster are we would not be here. Everyone is entitled to our own options.
Eagle 1 here is the link to the man in the stairway.;

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstor...tairwell-89520-

The McCann's were upstairs I believe.I will check I could be wrong. I do not know if the person that seen the guy decided to tell another officer are not.

[One2Snoop]

Hi ya dallasvic - the link to the video doesn't work. :seeya:

[Jayelles]

I think I want to throw-up. :cuss: Right Dallasvic - why didn't the cadaver dogs hit on the fridge? OMG! Well at least the newspaper got it right this time -The Portuguese police have come up with their sickest slur yet! :flamemad:

'Maddie's body kept in fridge'

thesun.co.uk - By ONLINE REPORTERS - September 29, 2007

PORTUGUESE cops came up with their sickest slur yet against the McCanns yesterday — claiming little Maddie’s body may have been kept in a FRIDGE before being dumped.

They are working on the extraordinary theory that Kate killed her daughter accidentally and that dad Gerry helped her cover up.

And they make the bizarre claim that Maddie’s body was somehow stored in a fridge in one of the apartments at the holiday complex where she went missing in May.


It is utterly ridiculous. These apartments don't have massive fridges. The European fridges are a fraction of the size of American fridges to begin with, but the fridges which come in holiday apartments aren't even full-sized European fridges. Bear in mind that the occupants of the apartment are on vacation and will likely eat out most of the imte, the fridges are intended to store basic essentials like milk, water and maybe a few yoghurts. You cuoldn't store more than a couple of day's food in one let alone a body. They have teeny freezer shelves which just about hold an ice-cube tray. They don't have full sized cookers either. The apartments we've stayed in over the past 20+ years have had two cooking rings and no oven at all. Nowadays they often have microwaves but not always.

We once stayed in an apartment in Tenerife which had a washing machine and we couldn't believe it. Alas the water was volcanic and pretty black so we didn't use it because everything came out really dingy and dirty looking! LOL

[lodfafner]

It is utterly ridiculous. These apartments don't have massive fridges. The European fridges are a fraction of the size of American fridges to begin with, but the fridges which come in holiday apartments aren't even full-sized European fridges. Bear in mind that the occupants of the apartment are on vacation and will likely eat out most of the imte, the fridges are intended to store basic essentials like milk, water and maybe a few yoghurts. You cuoldn't store more than a couple of day's food in one let alone a body.

Why are you assuming the PJ are talking about a fridge in the appartment?
I have only read that they were speaking about "a fridge".

A fridge in the appartment is of course out of the question which means that they are probably speaking about another fridge. I think they are getting that friends helped the McCanns move the body somewhere and store it there. They should probably and maybe already have searched friends houses and cars. I can't see any other way they could hide and remove the body IF they were guilty.

[Jayelles]

Why are you assuming the PJ are talking about a fridge in the appartment?
I have only read that they were speaking about "a fridge".

A fridge in the appartment is of course out of the question which means that they are probably speaking about another fridge. I think they are getting that friends helped the McCanns move the body somewhere and store it there. They should probably and maybe already have searched friends houses and cars. I can't see any other way they could hide and remove the body IF they were guilty.


Their friends were staying in the same apartments so I suppose there are a few other options:-

1) That they dismembered her body and divided it between them. This assumes that their friends were willing to have bits of Madeleine's body "hidden" in their holiday apartment fridge - even with the danger that the police might search it.

2) That somehow they managed to persuade a local resident to let them hide the body of their dead daughter in the person's fridge. This assumes that the first local person they asked must have been perfectly willing to go along with this plan OR that any other locals who were asked and refused were willing to remain silent about having been asked. It also assumes that any local who agreed to hide maddie's body in their fridge was unafraid of the police searching their premises. This also assumes that the local person had a fridge large enough to hide a body (bearing in mind that European fridges are much smaller than US fridges).

3) Maybe they gave the Tapas bar a large tip to hide Madeleine's body for them? They would surely have a fridge or freezer large enough to hide a body in?

Now there's the little problem regarding removing the body from the fridge or freezer and disposing of it. The McCanns did not hire a car for 25 days. Even if it were kept in a fridge, a body would be seriously decomposed and smelling in that time.

Plus there's the problem that there aren't any witnesses who say they saw the McCanns carrying a child's-body shaped bundle round the neighbourhood doors.

Seriously - what are the chances that the McCanns have all these people (including complete strangers) willing to cover for them? And that they murdered their child and organised the disposal of her body and co-operation of a veritable army of friends and local strangers within the 90 minute window?

[lodfafner]

Regarding the fridge I only speculated about what I thought PJ was thinking when they talked about a fridge. IMO a fridge isn't necessary to hide a body.

The main problem is how the body was transported away from the house, this was probably done with a car regardless of who actually did it. Taking the body out in a car by the McCanns could have gone unnoticed much like the supposed abduction seemingly have gone unnoticed. Didn't the McCanns have any friends living in the area? IIRC I have read that somewhere.

Seriously - what are the chances that the McCanns have all these people (including complete strangers) willing to cover for them? And that they murdered their child and organised the disposal of her body and co-operation of a veritable army of friends and local strangers within the 90 minute window?

Seriously?

[Jayelles]

Regarding the fridge I only speculated about what I thought PJ was thinking when they talked about a fridge. IMO a fridge isn't necessary to hide a body.

The main problem is how the body was transported away from the house, this was probably done with a car regardless of who actually did it. Taking the body out in a car by the McCanns could have gone unnoticed much like the supposed abduction seemingly have gone unnoticed. Didn't the McCanns have any friends living in the area? IIRC I have read that somewhere.



Seriously?

I haven't heard or read anywhere that they had friends living in the area. There was one erroneous report which "suggested" they knew Robert Murat so maybe that's what you are thinking about.

The McCanns didn't have a car until 25 days after Maddie disappeared. We know they had onyl 90 minutes in which to kill her, dispose of her and then clean up the apartment and get themselves ready to go out to the Tapas Bar. That doesn't allow for time to get the twins ready for bed and settled, some "OMG - what are we going to do?" time and some time for basic shock.

You say a fridge wasn't necesasry? So where did they keep the body for 25 days which would be close enough for them to walk to and where no-one would notice the smell of a body decomposing in 80-100 degrees? Bear in mind that no-one noticed the body wherever it was.

I agree that whomever took Maddie would have needed a car. The tracker dogs which were used in the early search allegedly lost the scent at a place where a car could have been parked. But the McCanns didn't have a car at that point.

[lodfafner]

I haven't heard or read anywhere that they had friends living in the area. There was one erroneous report which "suggested" they knew Robert Murat so maybe that's what you are thinking about.

The McCanns didn't have a car until 25 days after Maddie disappeared. We know they had onyl 90 minutes in which to kill her, dispose of her and then clean up the apartment and get themselves ready to go out to the Tapas Bar. That doesn't allow for time to get the twins ready for bed and settled, some "OMG - what are we going to do?" time and some time for basic shock.

This looks very tight indeed.


You say a fridge wasn't necesasry? So where did they keep the body for 25 days which would be close enough for them to walk to and where no-one would notice the smell of a body decomposing in 80-100 degrees? Bear in mind that no-one noticed the body wherever it was.

A big plastic bag or two maybe. They could have keep it hidden in some shrubbery for all I know. Maybe it's there still. I'm still assuming they had access to a car.


I agree that whomever took Maddie would have needed a car. The tracker dogs which were used in the early search allegedly lost the scent at a place where a car could have been parked. But the McCanns didn't have a car at that point.

Interesting. If it were an abduction maybe Maddie wake up and wandered off looking for mummy and was picked up by someone at the spot. Seems more plausible to me than someone entering the appartment snatching her. Were was the supposed pickup spot? Very close? In the direction of the tapas bar?

[Jayelles]

This looks very tight indeed.



A big plastic bag or two maybe. They could have keep it hidden in some shrubbery for all I know. Maybe it's there still. I'm still assuming they had access to a car.

Well that would be an assumption or speculation which has no basis in fact. They flew to the resort on a package holiday. The holiday company would have met them at the airport and bussed them to the resort (this is standard procedure). If they wanted to drive themselves anywhere, they would have hired a car from a local car hire company and there would have been witnesses and paper records for that. You can't hire a car without photo ID which would be drivers licence at the very minimum (probably also a passport). No-one has come forward to report that the McCanns or their friends hired a car on the very evening that Maddie went missing. Apart from anything, it would be extremely unusual for a tourist to walk into a car hire company in the evening and say they wanted to hire a car and want it right there and then. You normally hire them in advance.



Interesting. If it were an abduction maybe Maddie wake up and wandered off looking for mummy and was picked up by someone at the spot. Seems more plausible to me than someone entering the appartment snatching her. Were was the supposed pickup spot? Very close? In the direction of the tapas bar?

It's unlikely she would have been able to open the door. The back door was locked and the shutters were down on the windows. The front (patio) door was unlocked but closed. These are heavy glass sliding doors which a child might struggle to open. The resort would have been busy in the evening - people dress up and go out walking, eating and to visit bars where they can relax and listen to live music. A child wandering about on her own in her pjs would surely have been noticed. Kate reported that the childrens' bedroom window was open. She said the first thing she was aware of was the breeze in the room when she opened the door. It's unlikely Maddie could have opened the door and the shutter and climbed out of the window.

[lodfafner]

The resort would have been busy in the evening - people dress up and go out walking, eating and to visit bars where they can relax and listen to live music. A child wandering about on her own in her pjs would surely have been noticed.

A person carrying a child in pj into a car would probably also be noticed under those circumstances IMO.
But noone did notice so probably the circumstances were not really as you describe them.

Regarding the patio door was closed. Maybe it wasn't. We only have Kates statement to this fact.

[Jayelles]

A person carrying a child in pj into a car would probably also be noticed under those circumstances IMO.
But noone did notice so probably the circumstances were not really as you describe them.

Regarding the patio door was closed. Maybe it wasn't. We only have Kates statement to this fact.

But Jane Tanner did report seeing someone carrying a child in pjs. This has been public knowledge for some time.

An adult with a small child is less noticeable than a small child on its own IMO. It's not uncommon for people to jammy their children and then take them out/home in the evening. It's often done as a convenience in case the child falls asleep in the car in which case they can be transferred to bed without disturbing them.

The Patio doors were in full view of the pool area which would have been busy as it is where the bars and restaurant are located. There is no report of them being open (as opposed to unlocked).

When we stick to the facts that we know rather than speculate about things which have no basis in fact, the case against the parents simply crumbles. Don't you agree?

[lodfafner]

But Jane Tanner did report seeing someone carrying a child in pjs. This has been public knowledge for some time.

An adult with a small child is less noticeable than a small child on its own IMO. It's not uncommon for people to jammy their children and then take them out/home in the evening. It's often done as a convenience in case the child falls asleep in the car in which case they can be transferred to bed without disturbing them.

The Patio doors were in full view of the pool area which would have been busy as it is where the bars and restaurant are located. There is no report of them being open (as opposed to unlocked).

When we stick to the facts that we know rather than speculate about things which have no basis in fact, the case against the parents simply crumbles. Don't you agree?

Can't say I do, yet ;)

If the Patio door were in full view facing a busy pool area surely someone must have heard when Kate was searching for Maddie when she noticed she was not there. There must be an abundance of witnesses to what happened.

Who is this Jane Tanner? A witness in the pool area?

[sharlock]

Hi ya dallasvic - the link to the video doesn't work. :seeya:
New Madeleine suspect seen in stairwell - Top Stories - News ... (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/29/new-madeleine-suspect-seen-in-stairwell-89520-19866730/)
Here is the link One2Snoop. It is to a news article not a video though.

[sharlock]

Does the PJ's non disclosure rules also encompass witnesses? Usually in a case like this reporters would be pulling complete strangers off the street to ask if they had seen anything but there is very little info from witnesses out there really so I just wondered if they too had been told not to talk?

[Jayelles]

Can't say I do, yet ;)

If the Patio door were in full view facing a busy pool area surely someone must have heard when Kate was searching for Maddie when she noticed she was not there. There must be an abundance of witnesses to what happened.

Who is this Jane Tanner? A witness in the pool area?

What makes you think no-one heard her searching for Maddie or that there weren't an abundance of witnesses?

Jane Tanner is the McCann friend whose child was sick.

[Jayelles]

Does the PJ's non disclosure rules also encompass witnesses? Usually in a case like this reporters would be pulling complete strangers off the street to ask if they had seen anything but there is very little info from witnesses out there really so I just wondered if they too had been told not to talk?

I think so because bear in mind that the McCanns were on record as stating that they couldn't talk about the case and that was before they were made arguidos.

[Jayelles]

This is an odd one. A tip off received by Prince Charles' website and reported in The Independent:-

Madeleine McCann may have been kidnapped by a disgruntled maid in revenge for her sacking by the Praia da Luz resort where the three-year-old disappeared 150 days ago, according to a tip-off received by British police.



http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article3013145.ece

Now a couple of things immediately strike me:-

1) The tipoff going to Prince CHarles' website - How odd is that? And then again, how odd would it be if the tip off was sent by a Portuguese person? The Royal Family are just about the most famous Brits so if someone didn't know how to go about contacting the correct person in Britain, is it feasible they'd try to contact one Brit who was in a position to forward the information to the correct person - i.e. the future King of Great britain?


2) It being reported in the "Indy". This is one of our "serious" newspapers so that alone gives this article credibility.

[puppies]

this case is getting so frustrating.is anybody outthere searching for this little girl?

[lodfafner]

What makes you think no-one heard her searching for Maddie or that there weren't an abundance of witnesses?

Because I havn't read any reports saying she did call out for Maddie while searching. If there were many winesses I would expect many reports about what happened and many sightings of a possible abduction.


Jane Tanner is the McCann friend whose child was sick.

If there were alot of witnesses isn't it strange that the one person who saw anything happened to be a friend of the McCanns?

[Jayelles]

Because I havn't read any reports saying she did call out for Maddie while searching. If there were many winesses I would expect many reports about what happened and many sightings of a possible abduction.

Have you read any reports which said she didn't call out?



If there were alot of witnesses isn't it strange that the one person who saw anything happened to be a friend of the McCanns?

Not really since she too was walking backwards and forth between the Tapas Bar and the same apartments during that critical time frame.

[lodfafner]

Have you read any reports which said she didn't call out?


No, nor would I expect any. I do expect reports about when the whole affair turned into a missing child case.

The first indication is Kate shouting something to the effect that Maddie was gone or that someone had taken her IIRC. I just don't buy that Kate went about her business searching for Maddie quitely for 10min. I would expect her to go outside and ask people if they had seen a child, I would expect her to start calling out loudly Maddies name so that Maddie could hear her if she was closeby in the vicinity.

[Jayelles]

No, nor would I expect any. I do expect reports about when the whole affair turned into a missing child case.

The first indication is Kate shouting something to the effect that Maddie was gone or that someone had taken her IIRC. I just don't buy that Kate went about her business searching for Maddie quitely for 10min. I would expect her to go outside and ask people if they had seen a child, I would expect her to start calling out loudly Maddies name so that Maddie could hear her if she was closeby in the vicinity.

Firstly, I have never read anywhere that "she went about her business quietly for 10 min". In fact, I've never read any report (reliable or otherwise) which described events in the immediate afternath of Kate discovering Maddie was missing.

Secondly, I don't think there is any manual which describes how a parent must react on finding one of their children missing from their bed on vacation.

Thirdly, whether or not she started screaming or racing round quietly looking for her child isn't evidence that she killed her.

I have colleagues who lost their children in the Dunblane massacre and the parents all didn't react the same whilst waiting for news of their children. Some sat in silence, some in tears, some paced anxiously, some were pretty vocal in demanding information and one poor woman just stood and screamed her daughter's name over and over (that was Victoria's mum).

[Star]

I cannot possibly fathom missing a child and I can't understand how the family can be so calm. I would have lost my mind by now and I am a pretty strong person. My heart goes out to the family and I hope and pray Maddie is found safe.

[One2Snoop]

New Madeleine suspect seen in stairwell - Top Stories - News ... (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/29/new-madeleine-suspect-seen-in-stairwell-89520-19866730/)
Here is the link One2Snoop. It is to a news article not a video though.

Thanks Sharlock.

[One2Snoop]

I cannot possibly fathom missing a child and I can't understand how the family can be so calm. I would have lost my mind by now and I am a pretty strong person. My heart goes out to the family and I hope and pray Maddie is found safe.

Who said the family was calm? :shrug:

[One2Snoop]

Firstly, I have never read anywhere that "she went about her business quietly for 10 min". In fact, I've never read any report (reliable or otherwise) which described events in the immediate afternath of Kate discovering Maddie was missing.

Secondly, I don't think there is any manual which describes how a parent must react on finding one of their children missing from their bed on vacation.

Thirdly, whether or not she started screaming or racing round quietly looking for her child isn't evidence that she killed her.

I have colleagues who lost their children in the Dunblane massacre and the parents all didn't react the same whilst waiting for news of their children. Some sat in silence, some in tears, some paced anxiously, some were pretty vocal in demanding information and one poor woman just stood and screamed her daughter's name over and over (that was Victoria's mum).

I agree Jayelles. People do react differently and if a person appears calm it doesn't mean they are on the inside, heart racing, frantic thoughts etc. IMO.

[Eagle1]

New Madeleine suspect seen in stairwell - Top Stories - News ... (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/29/new-madeleine-suspect-seen-in-stairwell-89520-19866730/)
Here is the link One2Snoop. It is to a news article not a video though.

I remember "stocky" in the description, can't remember if it said big and stocky or short and stocky, already started this.

Could that have been one of the two guys Kate photographed watching her family at play?

This one was a lookout while the other one was taking Maddie? I know, we don't know if the guy who stepped backwards to under the tree was English or anything about him.

Police told the witness not to say anything more, who'd seen someone under the stairs. So they're working on it and probably lots of other tips, there's so much Reward money, and I don't think we have to be quite so fearful they'll arrest and charge the McCanns.

A young nanny at this link heard and saw Kate looking for Maddie. You'll want to read what she said, and there's a picture of her, Charlotte Pennington.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/Live/articles/news/news.html?1....

She says Murat was in the area, which he denies. Murat is not the stocky one, right?

I may have forgotten to give this link about a pair of extortioners arrested for trying to get money from the McCanns.
http://www.crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6683&pa...

[One2Snoop]

I think I almost need to stop reading the updates. Now they think she fell down the stairs? No wait, the fired maid did it! Good grief! :confused:

Don't get me wrong - I do appreciate Odette posting the updates. :seeya: It's just this is all so frustrating, I can't even begin to imagine how the McCann's feel when they read this garbage.

For Madeleine :rose:

[Jayelles]

Who said the family was calm? :shrug:

I agree. I think some people are misinterpreting a state of shock for "calm".

The documentary was quite well done. It was only half an hour long but it managed to debunk a lot of the misinformation that is "out there" such as "the family called the media before the called the police"! In fact, the police had been involved for hours and teams of people had been helping the McCanns search throughout the night. The following morning, a family friend decided to call GMTV to ask them to report a missing child.

When little Sarah Payne went missing, her mother acted as spokesperson and in her appeals, she too appeared "calm". She is a very strong lady who held together for the sake of her other children and who went on to campaign for changes in the law.

[Jayelles]

The documentary last night showed the layout of the apartment complex quite well. From the position of the table the group sat at, the McCann apartment was partially obscured by a tree. However, the table was very close to the edge of the pool. There is a gate into the front "garden" of the apartment with a little path running along the front of the balcony leading to a few stairs which go up to the balcony. So if you were standing on the balcony looking toward the pool, the steps would be at the right hand side of the balcony wall.

An expert said that a body would be smelled from some distance in the heat they've had this summer and that the suggestion her parents stored it for 25 days is ludicrous.

[Jayelles]

I guess we're going to be hearing that the toxicology reports reveal that Maddie wasn't drugged by her parents after all since the next fairy-story theory is already being touted:-

"Maddie died from a fall down the stairs"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/01/nmaddy101.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

How many parents would quickly bury their child after a fall down the stairs rather than get the child to hospital?

When I was young, there were a number of "desperation" jokes in circulation. e.g. :-

Q What's a sign of desperation?
A Teeth marks on the toilet door.


I can think of a few more now regarding the Portuguese police attempts to pin this on the McCanns.

[JBRnotforgotten]

my daughter said this was perfect for the McCanns when being told not to talk about their child..

Its easy to feel like you're all alone
To feel like nobody knows
The great that you are; the good thats inside you
Is trying so head to break through

Maybe, it's your time to lift up and fly
You wont know if you never try
I will be there with Its easy to feel like you're all alone
To feel like nobody knows
The great that you are; the good thats inside you
Is trying so head to break through

Maybe, it's your time to lift up and fly
You wont know if you never try
I will be there with you all of the way
you'll be fine

Dont!
Let!
Anyone tell you that your not strong enough
Dont give up!
Theres nothin wrong with
Just bein yourself thats more then enough
Some come and raise your voice..
Speak your mind and make some noise!..
and sing
Hey!
Hey!
Make some noise!
Hey!
Hey yea..

You want to be known
You want to be heard, and know you are beauitful
You have so much to give; some change you wanna live
So shout it out and let it show
You have a diamond inside of your heart
A light that shines bright as the stars
Dont be afraid to be all that you are
You'll be fi-e-ine

Dont!
Let!
Anyone tell you that your not strong enough
Dont give up!
Theres nothin wrong with
Just bein yourself thats more then enough
Some come an draise your voice..
Speak your mind and make some noise!..
and sing


Hey!
Hey!
Make some noise!
Hey!
Hey yea..

You cant just sit back and watch the world change
Thats what youv'e got to say
There's no one else who can stand in your place
So come on it's never to late

Maybe, it's your time to lift up and fly
You wont know if you never try

Dont!
Let!
Anyone tell you that your not strong enough
Dont give up!
Theres nothin wrong with
Just bein yourself thats more then enough
Some come and raise your voice..
Speak your mind and make some noise!..
and sing
Hey!
Hey!
Make some noise!
Hey!
Hey yea..

Hey!
Hey!
Make some noise!
Speak your mind and make some noise
and sing

[docwho3]

I think I almost need to stop reading the updates. Now they think she fell down the stairs? No wait, the fired maid did it! . . . Yep, maybe the maid did it in the bedroom with the rope. (Sounds like the old clue game doesn't it?)

[One2Snoop]

Yep, maybe the maid did it in the bedroom with the rope. (Sounds like the old clue game doesn't it?)


It sure does! Now get aload of this! I think Amaral needs to be thrown off the case pronto! IMO :flamemad:

Officer leading hunt for Madeleine 'enjoys boozy lunches and half days'
Last updated at 11:59am on 1st October 2007

Goncalo Amaral: Has a seemingly laid back approach to the investigation
Portuguese police have again come under fire for their laid back and unprofessional attitude in the hunt for missing Madeleine McCann.

The man leading the world's biggest missing child inquiry, Portuguese police chief Goncalo Amaral, is working as little as four-and-a-half hours a day.

And he has been enjoying boozy lunches- despite a mountain of uninvestigated sightings of Madeleine McCann.

According to the Sunday Mirror newspaper there have been 252 possible tip-offs about the little girl's whereabouts - but the vast majority have yet to be checked.

It has also been reported that he was overheard in a cafe brazenly accusing the McCanns of killing Madeleine.

The conversation was a breach of the judicial secrecy rules which prevent Kate and Gerry from defending themselves against police leaks.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=484965&in_page_id=1770

[Jayelles]

Yep, there's a definite shift in the news headlines today. We've got "Brave Gerry and Kate McCann" in one article and "Latest slurs from the sick Portuguese cops" in another.

It certainly seems as if any journalist with an ounce of self-respect is beginning to realise that since the vast majority of leaks from the Portuguese police have turned out to be false and that they are also now escalating in the ridicul-ocity factor that it might be a safer bet to distance themselves from the prosecution.

Predictions for tomorrows headlines are already abound - "The McCanns sent her to Pluto for being naughty" was one. My own is "The McCanns traded her for a bottle of bubbly at the Tapas Bar".

[Pelicanette]

I have always thought, and I have posted on several forum sites, that the most likely scenario was that Maddy was abducted by a person who either worked at the resort or had easy access to it and great familiarity with it. The prospect of a former maid being involved is not so far-fetched to me. In fact, several of us on another website speculated that it was probably a man but could be a woman. I thought all along that it was someone who would not be considered suspicious if seen by others at the resort and that the person might even have a uniform. In a big resort like that, hundreds of employees mill about plus people such as deliverymen, laundry personnel, mailmen, etc., who blend in very nicely with all the tourists and others are the resort.

The rumor about Madeleine falling down stairs is just another rumor, as far as I am concerned. In a fall serious enough to kill her, there would likely have been blood and a lot of it, since a knock on the head with even a slight cut will bleed profusely.

The fridge discussion is silly. It would take a very large refrigerator or freezer to hold the body. And most small refrigerators would not be sufficient to keep it from decaying or even to freeze it.

Putting it in a bag or two would not do the trick. Even ordinary garbage in a trash bag begins to smell in the heat, and a human body in the process of decay would put out an odor most foul and noticeable.

Someone took Madeleine and may still have her, IMO.

[Pelicanette]

No matter how you look at it, the Portuguese police are to blame for what has happened. It is their job to find Madeleine or her body, and they have done neither. It is not the job of jouralists or parents to find their missing daughter, though both have tried, I am sure. It is the job of the police, and the proof is in the pudding. They have not done their jobs.

[JBRnotforgotten]

I totally agree , I mean the heat would let the stinch out through all cracks or untight seals in the car, and nobody would be able to be near the car for the smell.

[dallasvic]

Well, Now we have physic's on the case so they say. Several mediums have contacted police and said Maddie was abducted also and we have the sightings.

MADELEINE: NOW PSYCHICS USED IN HUNT


http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/285x214/20721_1.jpg

SEARCH: Madeleine McCann

[Eagle1]

The good news, Having 250 tips that haven't yet been investigated is at least better news than no tips at all. I think that's encouraging.

Interpol is supposed to be investigating this case too. That's terrible about the half-days guy so let's hope he gets replaced.

So do we have a consensus that Maddie's been abducted but is alive? The woman who said the little girl at the gas station asked "When can I see Mommy?" sounds promising to me. And the one who called out Madelein's name and the man ran with that little girl. He/they must be telling her they've just borrowed her for some reason, to keep her calm and manageable. They take her out for walks to exercise her?

Why would someone have had her at a gas station? Maybe to buy a candy bar or something like that? A gas station?

[Seashell]

No matter how you look at it, the Portuguese police are to blame for what has happened. It is their job to find Madeleine or her body, and they have done neither. It is not the job of jouralists or parents to find their missing daughter, though both have tried, I am sure. It is the job of the police, and the proof is in the pudding. They have not done their jobs.


I wonder if in the first place the parents arent to blame for leaving their 3 children alone to go out wine and have fun? specially knowing full well they could have had a babysitter? which they declined! if they had done this in UK the social services would have removed the twins in a blink of an eye!
yes i do believe that in part the police may have botched up on some aspects of this case but why blame the police for all whats happened?
who and why do foreigners assume that the portuguese police are totally useless?
give them a chance, they may have good reasons for suspecting the parents negligence.

[andU]

I wonder if in the first place the parents arent to blame for leaving their 3 children alone to go out wine and have fun? specially knowing full well they could have had a babysitter? which they declined! if they had done this in UK the social services would have removed the twins in a blink of an eye!
yes i do believe that in part the police may have botched up on some aspects of this case but why blame the police for all whats happened?
who and why do foreigners assume that the portuguese police are totally useless?
give them a chance, they may have good reasons for suspecting the parents negligence.


When the lead investigating officer has been reported as taking long lunch breaks that include consumming alcoholic beverages; (to say nothing of him being investigated for past shady behavior) why shouldn't the entire force be suspicious? Yes, the parents left their children, yes, that was wrong. But, it does not make it ok for someone to steal a child from their room! If the parents broke any laws by leaving the children; they should be prosecuted for that; but the law should be after the person who is responsible for Maddie's kidnapping, IMO. Portuguese Police are totally useless; why don't they actually spend some time looking into reports of Maddie having been seen alive?

[Seashell]

When the lead investigating officer has been reported as taking long lunch breaks that include consumming alcoholic beverages; (to say nothing of him being investigated for past shady behavior) why shouldn't the entire force be suspicious? Yes, the parents left their children, yes, that was wrong. But, it does not make it ok for someone to steal a child from their room! If the parents broke any laws by leaving the children; they should be prosecuted for that; but the law should be after the person who is responsible for Maddie's kidnapping, IMO. Portuguese Police are totally useless; why don't they actually spend some time looking into reports of Maddie having been seen alive?

Do you know life in the country or have any knowledge of the local customs of having the odd beer during their lunch breaks?
wow its a crime and easily critized no ways are they allowed to eat nor have their breaks?

As for the parents breaking the laws i dont call it that i call it total and absolute NEGLIGENCE, i have travelled with my kids all my life and never ever would i leave my toddlers alone in a hotel room or apartment, i am not a perfect mother but hell its common sense!
Everyone including me at first felt terribly sorry for the parents, i cant help feeling different now.
As for the police spending more time looking for the child INTERPOL are already onto this.

[andU]

Do you know life in the country or have any knowledge of the local customs of having the odd beer during their lunch breaks?
wow its a crime and easily critized no ways are they allowed to eat nor have their breaks?

As for the parents breaking the laws i dont call it that i call it total and absolute NEGLIGENCE, i have travelled with my kids all my life and never ever would i leave my toddlers alone in a hotel room or apartment, i am not a perfect mother but hell its common sense!
Everyone including me at first felt terribly sorry for the parents, i cant help feeling different now.
As for the police spending more time looking for the child INTERPOL are already onto this.

Of course they are encouraged to take breaks, but working only half days and getting soused up during lunch does not make a dedicated police officer, in my opinion. Really? They are checking out the reports? Since when? What is your source, please.
You are entitled to your opinion, as am I and perhaps we should agree to disagree.

[dallasvic]

hi Everyone,

The parents are only guilty of one thing and that is they made a MISTAKE and they are paying a HUGE PRICE. The police hit a brick wall right in the beginning of this case so they focused on the parents, but every time they get a lead in another direction the keep coming back to the parents.
Experts say there is not enough evidence to arrest the parents for anything. They have no case against them.

[cat840]

Experts say there is not enough evidence to arrest the parents for anything. .

Which experts are you referring to?

[Jayelles]

Do you know life in the country or have any knowledge of the local customs of having the odd beer during their lunch breaks?
wow its a crime and easily critized no ways are they allowed to eat nor have their breaks?

As for the parents breaking the laws i dont call it that i call it total and absolute NEGLIGENCE, i have travelled with my kids all my life and never ever would i leave my toddlers alone in a hotel room or apartment, i am not a perfect mother but hell its common sense!
Everyone including me at first felt terribly sorry for the parents, i cant help feeling different now.
As for the police spending more time looking for the child INTERPOL are already onto this.

You know something, like the majority of Brits, I would never have a gun in my house. Brits generally abhor the American gun culture - but it's YOUR culture and we respect it. Please respect ours. The fact is that baby listening services are common practice here - if you don't believe me, then google it and I promise you you'll get an abundance of hits for European hotels. Others have done so and been courteous enough to come back and acknowledge that my claim is correct. The McCanns could have paid for someone to go and listen at their apartment door every half an hour and I really doubt that would have made any difference - except that it might have been even later before they discovered her missing.

Some people just don't seem to be able to get past the fact that the McCanns put their kids to bed and went for dinner with their friends in a restaurant some 70 yards from their apartment. But they did and now they are living with the awful consequences of that decision. IMO, it's unproductive to harp on about it. Let's just get on with the investigation.

There are forums where you are free to post any amount of vitriol about the McCanns without having to justify your accusations or provide sources for your claims (some of the downmarket tabloids have such forums). However, the regular member of this forum seem more dedicated to finding out the truth about the evidence and most of us remain optimistic that Maddie will be found alive and returned to her family.

[Jayelles]

Wow! Reports that Amaral has been taken off the case!

THE lead Portuguese investigator in the hunt for Madeleine McCann was sacked today, according to reports.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral was dismissed after Portugal's justice minister told him he shouldn't have commented that British cops on the case were favouring the McCanns.

Minister Alberto Costa said: "We need to concentrate


http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007450674,00.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=485154&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

[andU]

You know something, like the majority of Brits, I would never have a gun in my house. Brits generally abhor the American gun culture - but it's YOUR culture and we respect it. Please respect ours. The fact is that baby listening services are common practice here - if you don't believe me, then google it and I promise you you'll get an abundance of hits for European hotels. Others have done so and been courteous enough to come back and acknowledge that my claim is correct. The McCanns could have paid for someone to go and listen at their apartment door every half an hour and I really doubt that would have made any difference - except that it might have been even later before they discovered her missing.

Some people just don't seem to be able to get past the fact that the McCanns put their kids to bed and went for dinner with their friends in a restaurant some 70 yards from their apartment. But they did and now they are living with the awful consequences of that decision. IMO, it's unproductive to harp on about it. Let's just get on with the investigation.

There are forums where you are free to post any amount of vitriol about the McCanns without having to justify your accusations or provide sources for your claims (some of the downmarket tabloids have such forums). However, the regular member of this forum seem more dedicated to finding out the truth about the evidence and most of us remain optimistic that Maddie will be found alive and returned to her family.


Very good post, Jayelles. Good insight about culture across the pond; I apprecieate your posts!

[andU]

Wow! Reports that Amaral has been taken off the case!



http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007450674,00.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=485154&in_page_id=1770&ct=5


This is encouraging news!

[Pelicanette]

The McCanns have admitted they were wrong to leave the chidlren unattended, even for a short time and that they deeply regret it, but it is not proof that they harmed their child in any way or caused her death or covered up anything.

Those are two separate issues. Ironically, on tv the other morning, someone was talking about a country where women routinely park their baby carriages in front of stores and then go in to do their shopping. I am not sure where it was, but apparently, that is done in some places out of courtesy to other shoppers when the stores are small and the aisles are narrow.

I know there are places where women stroll with their baby carriages well into the night without fear of any type of attack. I have heard about them. Some places are just safer than others.

I have to mention here, too, the resort atmosphere and the way that the sun, the sea, the beach etc. cause people to relax so completely and feel very safe and secure. I think we all let our guard down a bit in a resort atmosphere. The ocean, the breezes, the warmth of the sun, the friendliness of the people...all makes us feel very safe.

[Jayelles]

It's true that it takes a tragedy to make us all sit up and rethink our habits. After Dunblane, all our schools got paranoid about security. Before Dunblane, if my son or daughter forgot their gymn kit or packet lunch, I'd simply walk straight into the school, find my way to their classroom, knock at the classroom door and hand it in. Nowadays schools are like prisons with security fences, security cameras and security entrances.

[Pelicanette]

I do wonder how many police can be dismissed from the case and how many are still working on it. First Sousa was gone, and now another is gone. Maybe they should bring Sousa back. He seemed more honest and practical and experienced to me.

[Jayelles]

I do wonder how many police can be dismissed from the case and how many are still working on it. First Sousa was gone, and now another is gone. Maybe they should bring Sousa back. He seemed more honest and practical and experienced to me.

Something had to give though - don't you think? The daily slurs were beyond a joke. I've been waiting for this to turn into a really nasty international incident and wondering if the McCanns could go to the European courts for intervention. It might still come to that.

[dallasvic]

Which experts are you referring to?


Have you not read the updates odette have posted it was today or yesterday.A Forensic expert.

[dallasvic]

These 2 detectives gone now is a big hint that some thing is not right in the detective division at the department. I think it should be turned over to a new division all together and see what happens then.
It could not hurt to try anyway.

[Seashell]

There are forums where you are free to post any amount of vitriol about the McCanns without having to justify your accusations or provide sources for your claims (some of the downmarket tabloids have such forums). However, the regular member of this forum seem more dedicated to finding out the truth about the evidence and most of us remain optimistic that Maddie will be found alive and returned to her family.
I am a resident living in spain, we are living this case as much as you in the UK, i take offence to read the British tabloids tearing the portuguese police apart these people are as desperate to find this child as we all are concerned on her whereabouts.
As for my culture? i love this country as much as i love UK, i learnt to respect their customs as well as their laws.

[Jayelles]

I am a resident living in spain, we are living this case as much as you in the UK, i take offence to read the British tabloids tearing the portuguese police apart these people are as desperate to find this child as we all are concerned on her whereabouts.
As for my culture? i love this country as much as i love UK, i learnt to respect their customs as well as their laws.

Come on.... the Portuguese police have earned their criticism fair and square! The theories have been utterly ridiculous.... keeping her body for 25 days ... storing it what basically amounts to a minibar ....

Today Amaral was even attacking the British police - and they haven't even done anything! They certainly haven't been shooting their mouths off to the media!

Even the Spanish police are distancing themselves from the Portuguese cops and denying claims the Portuguese coppers made about them.

Majorca is our favourite Spanish holiday destination. We go there every year. It's so civilised.

[cat840]

Experts say there is not enough evidence to arrest the parents for anything.
Have you not read the updates odette have posted it was today or yesterday.A Forensic expert.

You said experts in your first post, also I thought you knew who those experts actually were.

Also why is a forensic expert speaking up concerning a possible arrest? Woudn't that be a judical question?


Today Amaral was even attacking the British police - and they haven't even done anything!

Maybe it is the forensic expert that Amaral is attacking?

[dallasvic]

You said experts in your first post, also I thought you knew who those experts actually were.

Also why is a forensic expert speaking up concerning a possible arrest? Woudn't that be a judical question?



Maybe it is the forensic expert that Amaral is attacking?


His name is Robin Hoole with the FSS lab.
Here is the link :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?

[One2Snoop]

Wow! Reports that Amaral has been taken off the case!
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007450674,00.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=485154&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

I haven't had time to read up on everything, but this is awesome news. IMO :beer:

[dallasvic]

I haven't had time to read up on everything, but this is awesome news. IMO :beer:


Hi O2S,

Isn't it though:) :biggrin: :beer:

[Pelicanette]

You asked if the parents were not to blame for leaving the children unattended for a while. Well, other parents left their kids unattended that night, and those children were not taken and are not missing. In other words, one does not necessarily lead to the other. In fact, there are many cases in which children have been taken in broad daylight or even grabbed from their homes in the middle of the night, with parents sleeping nearby. Children have been abducted from busy shopping malls, too, or disappeared at adventure amusement parks when parents were nearby. I do not think the parents are to blame for the abduction. The person who took her is to blame. He (or she) is the criminal. Sadly, many people, including the police, are focusing on the parents instead of looking for Madeleine or for her abductor.

[bantastic!!]

No criminal would risk to keep her after half a year of high profile media campaign. Imo the media spectable was counter-productive to finding Madeleine alive. If the McCann's had asked high profile people like Beckham to support a secret investigation it would have been more effective imo.

[dallasvic]

hi Everyone,

The parents are only guilty of one thing and that is they made a MISTAKE and they are paying a HUGE PRICE. The police hit a brick wall right in the beginning of this case so they focused on the parents, but every time they get a lead in another direction the keep coming back to the parents.
Experts say there is not enough evidence to arrest the parents for anything. They have no case against them.
I can' wait to see who is going to take the chiefs place and what direction he will take. Now the port police were talking about a meeting and opposite side says no such meeting took place . So who is lying ?:shrug:

[cat840]

His name is Robin Hoole with the FSS lab.
Here is the link :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?

Hi Dallas, your link does not work. This (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=484969&in_page_id=1770)link does.

Here Robin Hoole does not address the total amount of evidence only the forensic part as would be expected of a forensic expert. He then speculates about what possible other evidence may exist and says

"From what we know, there doesn't seem to be much of a case against them."

I can see why Amaral think this kind of statements are inappropriate from British investigators who don't know what evidence exist. Unprofessional by Hoole IMO.

[Jayelles]

Hi Dallas, your link does not work. This (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=484969&in_page_id=1770)link does.

Here Robin Hoole does not address the total amount of evidence only the forensic part as would be expected of a forensic expert. He then speculates about what possible other evidence may exist and says

"From what we know, there doesn't seem to be much of a case against them."

I can see why Amaral think this kind of statements are inappropriate from British investigators who don't know what evidence exist. Unprofessional by Hoole IMO.

The forensic testing is being done in the UK so I would imagine that British investigators DO know what evidence exists and is being tested.

The results of the testing on the hairs is due to be completed within the next couple of weeks. This should show whether Madeleine had been "drugged" or not.

[cat840]

The forensic testing is being done in the UK so I would imagine that British investigators DO know what evidence exists and is being tested.

Yes Jay but not all evidence is forensic(as I think you know).

Clearly Hoole only speaks about the forensic part as he himself says he don't know what other evidence may exist. That he still feels the need to speculate about other evidence in favour of the McCanns make it seems that Amaral was right about the British investigators being partial in the case.

[Jayelles]

Yes Jay but not all evidence is forensic(as I think you know).

Clearly Hoole only speaks about the forensic part as he himself says he don't know what other evidence may exist. That he still feels the need to speculate about other evidence in favour of the McCanns make it seems that Amaral was right about the British investigators being partial in the case.

We'll just need to wait and see how this pans out. See which was the "right horse to back" (figuratively speaking!).

[cat840]

We'll just need to wait and see how this pans out. See which was the "right horse to back" (figuratively speaking!).

I guess my horse is already taken out of the race ;)

Biting another horse for shortcutting was apparently not allowed :biggrin:

[dallasvic]

The forensic testing is being done in the UK so I would imagine that British investigators DO know what evidence exists and is being tested.

The results of the testing on the hairs is due to be completed within the next couple of weeks. This should show whether Madeleine had been "drugged" or not.

:seeya: HI Jay,

I totally agree.the brits investigators would have access to that info. as well because it is all part of the ongoing investigation.:shrug:

[Eagle1]

Very good post, Jayelles. Good insight about culture across the pond; I apprecieate your posts!

It's unproductive to keep harping on the McCanns' error, and ALSO those of the police, imo. Impossible sometimes, tho' for Americans not to indulge a little in our "good old American humor" as a kind of escape when things are bad. For instance, "Sure hope the McCanns haven't misplaced their twins yet." We're just trying to deal with the stress. It's not really funny.

But it is great news that man has been replaced.

[One2Snoop]

LISBON: A senior Portuguese official investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has scolded the British police, saying they were being misled by the girl's parents, who are suspects in the case.

Goncalo Amaral, a detective who is overseeing the investigation into the child's disappearance during a family holiday in Portugal on May 3, claimed in comments published yesterday that the British police had been pursuing leads that were "created and cultivated" by the parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.

"The British police have been working solely on what the McCanns want, and what suits them," Amaral was quoted by Diario de Noticias as saying.

http://www.themercury.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=4062246

Please forgive my sarcasm - Now its the fault of the British Police! :eek: They are surely in on the conspiracy :rolleyes: - I thought Amaral was fired? :shrug:

[Eagle1]

http://www.themercury.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=4062246

Please forgive my sarcasm - Now its the fault of the British Police! :eek: They are surely in on the conspiracy :rolleyes: -

I thought Amaral was fired? :shrug:

I too heard he was fired. Isn't he the one who was only working half days?

[docwho3]

I too heard he was fired. Isn't he the one who was only working half days? How do I apply for that job? Ahhhh the thought of working half days and the drinking and the holiday resorts. I think I could relocate. :)

[dallasvic]

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_02/MADELINEMOD1509_468x440.jpg
:rose: My Heart & Prayers Are With The Family:rose:
GOD Bring This Child Home Safe Soon:rose:
They need to stop bashing each other and find this child.
She is the victim here.

[andU]

Thanks, Odette (spelled correctly?) for the news updates! It gives all of us, especially the parents, hope that someone who really might care about solving this crime may be heading the investigation.

[andU]

I too heard he was fired. Isn't he the one who was only working half days?

There is a very informative article posted on the Updates thread... tells a lot about the man who indulged in long lunches that included the drinking of alcoholic beverages.... and boasting about how the parents did it and the crime was solved.

[Jayelles]

Sara Payne is the mother of little abducted and murdered Sarah Payne.

This was what she had to say about the McCann case:-

MAULING SO WRONG’
BY SARA PAYNE

Few can imagine the pain that Gerry and Kate are going through. I know. I’ve been there. The guilt, the anguish, the wondering - the indescribable hurting that never goes away.

Yet, this couple are now also having to face a public and humiliating mauling by the Portuguese press and elsewhere.

Victims of a disgraceful smear campaign. Persecuted and bullied for doing what any loving parent would do in their dreadful situation – continuing the search for their missing daughter.

Three months on, I hear hostile questions being asked, insinuations levelled and the finger of blame pointed.

I’m shocked and appalled but most of all I am ashamed.

The McCanns are victims too. Their only crime was to make the wrong decision. A decision with dire consequences that nobody could have foreseen.

I often ask myself, were we wrong to let our daughter Sarah go out to play? Possibly, but as parents we made a decision that at the time seemed right. A decision I have to live with for the rest of my life.

Now is not the time for accusations and criticism.

Madeleine is out there somewhere. Her family desperately need her back.

Until that day happens, I beg you from the bottom of my heart to continue your support for them.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.u.....ml



THe link doesn't seem to work by the way. I found this article on another website. However, people criticise the McCanns for being "too calm". The Eyes for Lies blog website puts this down to their firm belief that she's going to be found. EfL says that their calmness does not raise any red flags. Sara Payne was also noted for her calmness when her daughter went missing. You can listen to a short press conference she and her husband gave at the time:-

http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=sara+payne&tab=av&edition=d&start=2&scope=all&link=next

[dallasvic]

There is a very informative article posted on the Updates thread... tells a lot about the man who indulged in long lunches that included the drinking of alcoholic beverages.... and boasting about how the parents did it and the crime was solved.

what got me bad about this guy is his heart is not in it. All the investigation I have seen and I myself would spend massive hour on fol lowering every lead no matter how small. i would not be able too sleep or eat til that child was found.

If this guy is saying the case is solved then why is no one in jail ?:shrug:He had many leads to follow up on and he was only working half a day:no: Makes me wonder if there was an investigation at all.:confused: :eek:

[One2Snoop]

I too heard he was fired. Isn't he the one who was only working half days?

Article posted today in the updates thread....

Senior Madeleine policeman 'asks for time off'
04/10/2007 - 2:11:47 PM

A senior police officer in the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has asked for an extended leave of absence, it was reported today.

Chief Inspector Tavares Almeida’s request, reported in the Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas, emerged after his boss, Goncalo Amaral, was taken off the case earlier this week.

snip
http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=15210820&p=y5zyx866&n=15210908

[andU]

Article posted today in the updates thread....

Senior Madeleine policeman 'asks for time off'
04/10/2007 - 2:11:47 PM

A senior police officer in the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has asked for an extended leave of absence, it was reported today.

Chief Inspector Tavares Almeida’s request, reported in the Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas, emerged after his boss, Goncalo Amaral, was taken off the case earlier this week.

snip
http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=15210820&p=y5zyx866&n=15210908

The officer in this article, as I understand it, is a second officer wanting to take a leave of absence (I think it may be as a grievance type thing to inflict hardship on the case, intentionally - IMO) because his boss was removed and stripped back to an inspector in the force.

[One2Snoop]

The officer in this article, as I understand it, is a second officer wanting to take a leave of absence (I think it may be as a grievance type thing to inflict hardship on the case, intentionally - IMO) because his boss was removed and stripped back to an inspector in the force.

That's quite possible andU. I didn't think of it that way. I really just wanted to point out to Eagle1 that Amaral indeed had been removed from the case.

[gojo]

There is a very informative article posted on the Updates thread... tells a lot about the man who indulged in long lunches that included the drinking of alcoholic beverages.... and boasting about how the parents did it and the crime was solved.

I am not defending the man, but we have to consider the source of the information. The story originally appeared in the London Mirror, an on-line tabloid that should be denied web space. Here is a quote from the Mirror story:

He works as little as four and a half hours a day and takes boozy three-hour lunches despite a mountain of Madeleine leads to investigate.

Notice the writer does not say where the information came from. Journalism requires attribution. Since there is none, you can assume it was made up by a so-called "reporter" sitting in a bar.

Of course, the story may be true. But without attribution, there is no way to tell, no way to check.

If you want to see other examples of poor writing, check out the Mirror website. And yes, I'm glad the guy is off the case, too.

--Gojo

[gojo]

I reckon I missed something somewhere in my reading. Maybe someone will help me. Was Mrs. McCann by law required to submit to the hours and hours of grilling by the cops? Could she have said, "See my lawyer"?

[gojo]

I thought that many of you might be unfamiliar with the British newspapers which are being quoted here and might appreciate a description!

"Serious" newspapers -
The Times
The Scotsman
The Independent
The Guardian

Middle Newspapers
The Mail
The Express
Daily Record

Down Market Tabloids
The Star
The Sport
News of the World
The Mirror

OddBods
The Sun

The Sun is an oddbod because "technically" it is a tabloid or red-top as they are often called. However, although it is full of pictures of topless models and tends to put a sleazy slant on a lot of its articles, it tends not to be dismissed outright because so many of it's sensational stories turn out to be right! It's the best selling newspaper so I guess Rupert Murdoch can afford to pay for exclusive stories.

I am bringing this over from an earlier post. Jayelles has done us all a service here. Before quoting some idiot tabloid, we should all check this list. JMO of course.

--Gojo

[gojo]

Hi Dallas, your link does not work. This (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=484969&in_page_id=1770)link does.

Here Robin Hoole does not address the total amount of evidence only the forensic part as would be expected of a forensic expert. He then speculates about what possible other evidence may exist and says

"From what we know, there doesn't seem to be much of a case against them."

I can see why Amaral think this kind of statements are inappropriate from British investigators who don't know what evidence exist. Unprofessional by Hoole IMO.

Thanks, Cat, for the link. But no thanks for the info. Really, The Mail is not a newspaper to be trusted. The reporter has one source for his story, and that source may be a janitor. Look at this from the story:

But Robin Hoole, who worked for the FSS laboratory in Birmingham, said Portuguese police will need something "substantially stronger than scientific evidence" to prove a case against her parents.

When Robin 'worked' for the lab, what did he do? What does he do now? There is so much misleading info in the world, we don't know what to believe any more. I reckon we can search for integrity in the major newspapers and hope to find it.

--Gojo

[One2Snoop]

I reckon I missed something somewhere in my reading. Maybe someone will help me. Was Mrs. McCann by law required to submit to the hours and hours of grilling by the cops? Could she have said, "See my lawyer"?

Not that I remember reading. I believe both parents were cooperative up until they were declared official suspects and then requested to have an attorney present.

[dallasvic]

Hi Dallas, your link does not work. This (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=484969&in_page_id=1770)link does.

Here Robin Hoole does not address the total amount of evidence only the forensic part as would be expected of a forensic expert. He then speculates about what possible other evidence may exist and says

"From what we know, there doesn't seem to be much of a case against them."

I can see why Amaral think this kind of statements are inappropriate from British investigators who don't know what evidence exist. Unprofessional by Hoole IMO.


Sorry about the link not working , but after every thing I have read the only evidence they have is forensic nothing else. Unless you have read some thing I have not read. If so please send it my way I would love to read it.

[dallasvic]

Not that I remember reading. I believe both parents were cooperative up until they were declared official suspects and then requested to have an attorney present.


Hi O2S,

I do not believe half of what I read. The stories are so confusing:confused: . I sure hope this new guy gets the ball rolling and finds Maddie. I don't think they fol lowered any leads on this case. I think from the beginning they had it in their heads that it was the parents.
I don't know what the % is over there is for children being killed, but here its 95% to be a parent or parents that kill or kidnap their own kids. If it is the same there well you do the math.:shrug:

I just still don't think they had any thing to do with Maddie's death. NO WAY:no:

[Jayelles]

Thanks, Cat, for the link. But no thanks for the info. Really, The Mail is not a newspaper to be trusted. The reporter has one source for his story, and that source may be a janitor. Look at this from the story:

But Robin Hoole, who worked for the FSS laboratory in Birmingham, said Portuguese police will need something "substantially stronger than scientific evidence" to prove a case against her parents.

When Robin 'worked' for the lab, what did he do? What does he do now? There is so much misleading info in the world, we don't know what to believe any more. I reckon we can search for integrity in the major newspapers and hope to find it.

--Gojo

A simple Google of "Robin Hoole" will tell you that he's not a janitor.

Robin Hoole is a career forensic scientist, having worked for the Forensic Science Service for over 40 years as a caseworker, team leader and manager before joining the university. Originally an analytical chemist, he specialised in physical comparison work and was involved in many high profile cases, such as The Moors Murders and The Yorkshire Ripper investigations. He brings extensive practical casework experience to the department.


http://www.uclan.ac.uk/facs/science/forensic/staff/academics.htm#rh

[Jayelles]

It was reported in the news yesterday that detective who asked for leave of absence had submitted his request BEFORE Amaral was taken off the case.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1287019,00.html

[cat840]

Thanks, Cat, for the link. But no thanks for the info. Really, The Mail is not a newspaper to be trusted. The reporter has one source for his story, and that source may be a janitor. Look at this from the story:

But Robin Hoole, who worked for the FSS laboratory in Birmingham, said Portuguese police will need something "substantially stronger than scientific evidence" to prove a case against her parents.

When Robin 'worked' for the lab, what did he do? What does he do now? There is so much misleading info in the world, we don't know what to believe any more. I reckon we can search for integrity in the major newspapers and hope to find it.

--Gojo

I was posting this link as Dallas link did not work and I found one that spoke about the same issue and was from the same paper. I thought that it maybe was this article that Dallas had read.

You suggest us to read Jay's list of newspapers as a guideline to what you think is appropriate to quote from and in this list Jay puts "The Mail" as a "Middle Newspaper" and in the response to me you mark it as untrustworthy tabloid. What is it?

Regarding Jay's list, what does "OddBods:The Sun" mean? Trustworthy or not?

I don't think any of us are in a position to tell other posters what to quote from and which are to be trusted or not. It is up to the reader to accept the source, the important thing is that a source is provided IMO.

What is your source that "The Mail" is not trustworthy?
You posted that information as fact. Opinions are interesting but fact should be supported IMO.

[cat840]

Sorry about the link not working , but after every thing I have read the only evidence they have is forensic nothing else. Unless you have read some thing I have not read. If so please send it my way I would love to read it.

The point is that there could be other evidence. Either you or Hoole knows that there are no other evidence. A professional should not speculate about what evidence there may or may not be in public IMO. You are free to do it here on this forum ofcourse. What I know is not relevant IMO.

[Jayelles]

I was posting this link as Dallas link did not work and I found one that spoke about the same issue and was from the same paper. I thought that it maybe was this article that Dallas had read.

You suggest us to read Jay's list of newspapers as a guideline to what you think is appropriate to quote from and in this list Jay puts "The Mail" as a "Middle Newspaper" and in the response to me you mark it as untrustworthy tabloid. What is it?

Regarding Jay's list, what does "OddBods:The Sun" mean? Trustworthy or not?

I don't think any of us are in a position to tell other posters what to quote from and which are to be trusted or not. It is up to the reader to accept the source, the important thing is that a source is provided IMO.

What is your source that "The Mail" is not trustworthy?
You posted that information as fact. Opinions are interesting but fact should be supported IMO.

The Sun is an oddbod newspaper because it tends to be sleazy (i.e. topless models etc) but it is the best selling British newspaper and is pretty wealthy so it can afford to pay for "scoops" and to check them out for accuracy before publishing. People tend not to dismiss the Sun outright because it's been right on so many occasions.

The Mail is a good read and is in fact, my newspaper of choice. Having said that, I don't buy it every day. It has good journalists writing for it and some awful ones. It has a lot of "essays" and lengthy, intelligent commentary in it so if you buy the Mail and read it cover to cover, you're pretty much set up for a whole afternoon - which I like. One of the reasons I don't always buy it is because I don't have time to read it all and then I get frustrated because I'd like to have read it! (does that make sense?)

The Mail sells out very quickly so if it's lunchtime and you haven't bought a Mail, you probably won't get one. The papers which are always available later in the day are the likes of the Mirror, the Star, the Sport, the Express and sometimes the Daily Record. I hate the Record because it takes me 3 minutes to read it.

I think they can probably all get it wrong from time to time.

The Sun is owned by Rupert Murdoch who owns Fox News.

[Jayelles]

The point is that there could be other evidence. Either you or Hoole knows that there are no other evidence. A professional should not speculate about what evidence there may or may not be in public IMO. You are free to do it here on this forum ofcourse. What I know is not relevant IMO.

Of course there could be other evidence but it's obviously not strong enough to charge the McCanns with or that would have happened.

I smelled a rat about the "evidence" when I learned they were seeking Kate's diary. Why on earth would they want her diary if they had enough evidence to charge her with murder already?

I once learned that when police take a suspect in and grill them for hours, it's a sign that their evidence is weak and they are on a fishing trip.

[dallasvic]

A simple Google of "Robin Hoole" will tell you that he's not a janitor.



http://www.uclan.ac.uk/facs/science/forensic/staff/academics.htm#rh

Thank you Jay,

I had already goggled him before i wrote about what he said. As for the link I am sorry it did not work. I got it on the updates that odette posts.I do not remember which paper it was there are so many. I have read so much here lately I don't know if I am coming or going.:confused:



cat,

when I post some thing I have general googled the info for facts. This case has me by the heart, and I try my best to follow up on info that is important. I have not been at CL that long but I am not a child .One of the reasons I joined is I had always watched REAL CRIME stories and forensics is my favorite. I learned alot from them.
I do not take things at face value I want fact if there are any and in this case there are very few and the news people are just trying to sell papers. The best headline wins.:eek:
Jay has been here a long time and I believe in my heart her list is very good. If you have a question about one of the papers just ask her. You do not have to be sarcastic about it. You have a habit of that i have noticed since you came here. And it is with everyone.
I am a nice person and i usually do not say anything ,but this is not the first time you have done this to just me. Every time mine was backed up with a link and facts. So without being hateful before you get sarcastic with someone check their info and see. Don't just assume find out for yourself before you do some thing like that.
Thanks :rose: For Maddie & Family


I was posting this link as Dallas link did not work and I found one that spoke about the same issue and was from the same paper. I thought that it maybe was this article that Dallas had read.

You suggest us to read Jay's list of newspapers as a guideline to what you think is appropriate to quote from and in this list Jay puts "The Mail" as a "Middle Newspaper" and in the response to me you mark it as untrustworthy tabloid. What is it?

Regarding Jay's list, what does "OddBods:The Sun" mean? Trustworthy or not?

I don't think any of us are in a position to tell other posters what to quote from and which are to be trusted or not. It is up to the reader to accept the source, the important thing is that a source is provided IMO.

What is your source that "The Mail" is not trustworthy?
You posted that information as fact. Opinions are interesting but fact should be supported IMO.

[cat840]

cat,

when I post some thing I have general goggled the info for facts. This case has me by the heart, and I try my best to follow up on info that important. I have not been at CL that long but I am not a child .One of the reasons I joined is I had always watched REAL CRIME stories and forensics is my favorite. I learned alot from them.
I do not take things at face value I want fact if there are any and in this case there are very few and the news people are just trying to sell papers. The best headline wins.:eek:
Jay has been here a long time and I believe in my heart her list is very good. If you have a question about one of the papers just ask her. You do not have to be sarcastic about it. You have a habit of that i have noticed since you came her. And it is with everyone.
I am a nice person and i usually do not say any thing ,but this is not the first time you have done this to just me. Every time mine was backed up with a link and facts. So without being hateful before you gety sarcastic with someone check their info and see. Don't just assume find out for yourself before you do some thing like that.
Thanks :rose:

Dallas, my post you quoted was an answer to Gojo. I'm sure you are a nice person and I appreciate your posts and your engagement in Maddies safe return.

And for Jays newspaper list I also directed that to Gojo. I think Jays intention was for posters to evaluate others quotes and not a list of what should be quoted or not.

[cat840]

I smelled a rat about the "evidence" when I learned they were seeking Kate's diary. Why on earth would they want her diary if they had enough evidence to charge her with murder already?

I once learned that when police take a suspect in and grill them for hours, it's a sign that their evidence is weak and they are on a fishing trip.

I rather not speculate on the possible evidence myself but may I say that

"fishing trip" sound about right ;)

[Jayelles]

Dallas, my post you quoted was an answer to Gojo. I'm sure you are a nice person and I appreciate your posts and your engagement in Maddies safe return.

And for Jays newspaper list I also directed that to Gojo. I think Jays intention was for posters to evaluate others quotes and not a list of what should be quoted or not.

My list was in response to someone asking about a particular newspaper and if it was a tabloid or not.

The word "tabloid" doesn't mean the same here as it does in the States. We have two sizes of newspaper - broadsheet and tabloid. The broadsheet papes are massive. You have to hold your arms high and wide to read them (or fold them over). The very serious newspapers tend to be broadsheet. Tabloids are smaller and a more manageable size.

We don't have anything here which would be equvalent to the US Globe or National Enquirer.

[Nerida_F]

I first thought Madeleine's parents were 99.9% innocent, and was horrified to hear the allegations last month from the Portuguese police, and wondered what the evidence was. Well, it seems that no real evidence has come forth, and now I no longer believe the parents are 99.9% innocent - more like 100.0% now. Madeleine's parents have had a had a horrific time, and the pendulum of guilt has swung their way for too long with these ludicrous allegations - DNA from cuddly cat and nappies, driving 1700km in two months to look for her, steep steps and now silly personal insults. One thing about pendulums is that they eventually swing back, and I would like to see it now point to the guilty people.

Here is Australia, we have a long relationship with criminals and crime. After reading this story (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007240151,00.html), I would have though that investigating the Moroccan community nearby would be first priority given that in the real world, child abductors are few and far in between and Carolina's abductor was probably the same as Madeleine's. The police, expecially Amaral seem very uninterested in finding the abductor. Indeed, the cases against the parents looks to be a constructed alibi to hide the abductor and his accomplices. The police did not take Madeleine's disappearance seriously in the first hours, did not close the escape route until too late, have not chased any abductors except for those living 50km away (well away from the real abductor), have a history with Joanna Cipriano of not investigating abductions properly. When you combine this with the fact that police always know all their local criminals, professional criminals usually pay off police so they don't get caught, Amaral is fat, lazy and has been in the police for 26years which is a prime time to get bored and deviate, and lastly has put in a shocking performance including some torture without getting sacked completely it looks like corruption is very likely stemming from Amaral up the corporate ladder. Australian police have been found guilty of virtually everything from taking cash, letting robbers know when people go on holidays, organising gangland killings and I would guess they are more eithical than the Portuguese. Lookup Roger Rogerson for our version of Mr Amaral. A quick check of Amaral's bank account could prove interesting.

So why was Madeleine taken? Probably for adoption (http://liberia.adoption.com/). Especially since adoption starts at 4years old from some NAfrican countries. I read somewhere that sometimes these kids can be scarred on their face so they look different and cannot be recognised.

The new ads should help next week, but it would be good to have a firm message to the abductors since these people operate at a low level, and need to be treated as such. Something firm like "To the abductors, we have a lead in Portugal, and the chances of you being found now increases every day. If caught you will spend the rest of your life in jail, unless you leave Madeleine at any hospital in the next two weeks."

Simple minds are a great band, and the song "Don't you forget about me" is excellent. The radio played another song the other day: "Alive and Kicking" which is also excellent. I hope the McCanns know that they are not forgotten, especially little Madeleine.

[Jayelles]

Hi Nerida. I like your point about the pendulum - it's very true. It's already happening quite noticeably in the papers here. One of my gripes with the press - they are so fickle.

Things get distorted intentionally and accidentally and it's so damaging. Mud sticks. I could go out today and accuse an innocent man of being a paedophile - with absolutely no evidence to support my claim whatsoever. Sure I'd probably get sued for defamation but I'm willing to bet that even if this were concluded in a court of law, there would be someone, somewhere who believed there was no smoke without fire and that the poor man might indeed be a paedophile.

I believe that in time, this case will be solved and I believe that the McCanns will be found innocent. I don't defend the fact that they chose to put the kids to bed and check on them at intervals, but it's a fact that they did something which is relatively common among Brits (and apparently the Dutch too) and that if even if they HAD used a baby listening service, Maddie would probably still have been taken and indeed it might have been even later when they discovered Maddie missing because the baby listening service does not actually enter the apartment to check on the kids. The fact is, they did what they did and we can either stick at that forever more, or get over it and look towards finding Madeleine. I choose to do the latter.

It seems to me that the Portuguese police have demonstrated an attrocious track record of leaking false information and that they have demonstrated a high level of incompetence as well as an ability to think up the most ludicrous (even impossible) theories regarding the McCanns. Now, there comes a point when many/most of us will look at these false stories and ludicrous theories and think "yeah, right". Kind of like the boy who cried "Wolf!" (or in this case "purple flying monster!" - since wolves actually exist and purple flying monsers don't!) ... so it bothers me that despite the track record and obvious unreliability of the stories coming from the Portuguese leaks, that some people still accept them!

Why would people accept stories from a source which has been proved unerliable time and time again? That's what I don't understand. Then again, most of us wouldn't believe that anyone could be conned by the scam e-mails from Africa until we hear about the many people who decide to ignore the warnings and go on to get conned too. Some people just don't learn.

Another thing that bothers me is the fact that people who believe the McCanns killed Maddie must, by default, believe she is dead. Therefore, these people cannot be looking for an abducted child who may still be alive. They say they only care about Maddie but how does that help Maddie? Isn't that akin to abandoning Maddie? After all, you wouldn't search for a dead child in the same places as you would search for a live one. I asked this on another forum and was told "Of course we are still looking for a live Maddie" .... so if they think Maddie might still be alive, why are they calling the parents murderers? It seems to me that there is a MAJOR contradiction there.

I simply cannot stomach reading much of the baseless attacks which are being offered as "case discussion" on other forums. "kate has a sly look" or "Gerry stuttered over a word" or "I can't believe the McCanns are dressing Amelie in Maddie's old clothes - how sick is that? (I regularly walk the dogs wearing my late father's old beaten up Barbour jacket despite the fact that it drowns me - is that sick too?) .... this isn't evidence and it isn't going to help find Maddie. Sadly, the Internet allows - even encourages this kind of discussion, hurtful and baseless though it may be.

I take hope from the knowledge that despite the false stories and hurtful comments, the truth will come out eventually and THEN we'll know.

[docwho3]

. . .I take hope from the knowledge that despite the false stories and hurtful comments, the truth will come out eventually and THEN we'll know. While I am undecided in this case so far, (I am still curious about the Urs Von Aesch thing which I am not convinced can be ruled out yet.) I am taking great pleasure in reading your intelligent and interesting posts about the case. I particularly like that you research your case points before posting them. It gives me greater confidence in your posts.

Whatever the truth I hope we find out and get to see little Madeleine returned from wherever she is.

[dallasvic]

Of course there could be other evidence but it's obviously not strong enough to charge the McCanns with or that would have happened.

I smelled a rat about the "evidence" when I learned they were seeking Kate's diary. Why on earth would they want her diary if they had enough evidence to charge her with murder already?

I once learned that when police take a suspect in and grill them for hours, it's a sign that their evidence is weak and they are on a fishing trip.


Jay you are absuitlly right on.They really do not have any thing they are grasping at straws. This case has flipped and flopped so much from the McCann's to another person.
I believe to Jay that their evidences does not add up.so they keep trying to find some thing to get them on.
Another thing is if they have evidence on they ,then tell me why they keep bringing in new suspect. If they had evidence they would not be enter viewing new suspects. The McCann's would be in jail.

[Jayelles]

Jay you are absuitlly right on.They really do not have any thing they are grasping at straws. This case has flipped and flopped so much from the McCann's to another person.
I believe to Jay that their evidences does not add up.so they keep trying to find some thing to get them on.
Another thing is if they have evidence on they ,then tell me why they keep bringing in new suspect. If they had evidence they would not be enter viewing new suspects. The McCann's would be in jail.

Good point - Robert Murat is still an arguido and they seem to have investigated him comprehensively too. We've been hearing media reports for weeks now that Murat is going to be cleared, but that doesn't seem to have happened.

I have also read a media report which "alleges" that Gerry McCann said "No comment" to every question he was asked in Portugal. Where on earth did this come from? Is it someone's speculation turned into fact? Or is it another leaked story from the Portuguese police? What a great system they have. The police don't give press conferences or statements because of their "strict secrecy laws" - yet the media seem to be able to get hold of an abundance of leaked stories from informal sources.

I ask....!

[andU]

It was reported in the news yesterday that detective who asked for leave of absence had submitted his request BEFORE Amaral was taken off the case.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1287019,00.html


Thank you, Jayelles. At least he didn't do it to back up his superior.

[andU]

Thanks, Cat, for the link. But no thanks for the info. Really, The Mail is not a newspaper to be trusted. The reporter has one source for his story, and that source may be a janitor. Look at this from the story:

But Robin Hoole, who worked for the FSS laboratory in Birmingham, said Portuguese police will need something "substantially stronger than scientific evidence" to prove a case against her parents.

When Robin 'worked' for the lab, what did he do? What does he do now? There is so much misleading info in the world, we don't know what to believe any more. I reckon we can search for integrity in the major newspapers and hope to find it.

--Gojo

Welcome to the board, Gojo. So, are you a journalist? You don't have to answer, of course, but it sounds like you may be.

[dallasvic]

I rather not speculate on the possible evidence myself but may I say that

"fishing trip" sound about right ;)


:seeya: Cat,

I am truly SORRY:o I typed the wrong name. Please will you except my apology ?;)
What Gojo said just got me upset and i typed the wrong name.
i will take you fishing I live on the lake. Come on and go so i can make it up to you.-------------SORRY____________:(

[Jayelles]

:seeya: Cat,

I am truly SORRY:o I typed the wrong name. Please will you except my apology ?;)
What Gojo said just got me upset and i typed the wrong name.
i will take you fishing I live on the lake. Come on and go so i can make it up to you.-------------SORRY____________:(



Can I come? I like lakes. :beer:

[cat840]

:seeya: Cat,

I am truly SORRY:o I typed the wrong name. Please will you except my apology ?;)
What Gojo said just got me upset and i typed the wrong name.
i will take you fishing I live on the lake. Come on and go so i can make it up to you.-------------SORRY____________:(



Absolutely no problem Dallas, no apology needed, I feel your intentions are very kind.

I'm not sure you want me on a fishing trip, lousy fisher, can't keep my mouth shut ;)

[Nerida_F]

Jayelles, I understand what you are saying about mud sticking. A friend said that at her work during a discussion about the McCanns, half thought they were guilty and half thought they were innocent. I have never seen anyone so shattered as Kate McCann and in my opinion there is no doubt about their sincerity.

About the police, I am very serious about the corruption. It seems there is only one person who is screaming about the McCann's guilt. And without being too vulgar, it is a bit like being in a car of four people when someone breaks wind. Each person will know it could have been one of the other three, but the person who screams the first and loudest is usually the perpetrator. And Amaral is still screaming long after he should have been quiet. Another pointer is the Marrakech affair. Police had to wait a week, and when they finally got there the tape at the petrol station was erased (http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/09/23/sighting-no2-but-cops-did-nothing-98487-19833529/). Maybe they had to organise someone to go and erase the tape first - who erase security tapes after a week anyway. It is amazing that noone has accused Amaral and others of being co-conspirators - probably because everyone feels Amaral is the only hope of getting her back. If anyone wants to find the abductor - ask Amaral - I am sure he knows. I used to think Amaral was criminally negligent - now I just think he is a criminal.

[dallasvic]

Good point - Robert Murat is still an arguido and they seem to have investigated him comprehensively too. We've been hearing media reports for weeks now that Murat is going to be cleared, but that doesn't seem to have happened.

I have also read a media report which "alleges" that Gerry McCann said "No comment" to every question he was asked in Portugal. Where on earth did this come from? Is it someone's speculation turned into fact? Or is it another leaked story from the Portuguese police? What a great system they have. The police don't give press conferences or statements because of their "strict secrecy laws" - yet the media seem to be able to get hold of an abundance of leaked stories from informal sources.

I ask....!

I totally agree, he was to be cleared and during that time the forensic evidence came back and I do not think it mounted to a hill of beans, so they grilled theyMcCann's trying to get them to confess under pressure and that did not work so they still have Murat to fall back on.
If the forensic stuff does not implicate him they have him in a lie. He said he was not there he I believe (don;t quote me on this but) I think he said he was at his mothers asleep. Alot of people said he was there. How do we not know if his mother was asleep that he was home ?:shrug: Not a very good alibi is it ? He was there that night watching. There are alot of criminals that do some thing and return to the scene of the crime. He could have went back to to see if anyone was going to be able to figure out what was going on and letting them see him was not a good idea.
If Murat did not take Maddie then, what would be the reason for him to lie and say he was not there ?:shrug: And he still denies it even though alot of other people seen him there.:eek:

:rose: For Maddie & Family:rose:

[dallasvic]

Can I come? I like lakes. :beer:

Absolutely no problem Dallas, no apology needed, I feel your intentions are very kind.

I'm not sure you want me on a fishing trip, lousy fisher, can't keep my mouth shut ;)


OK you two lets jump in my bass boat and catch some supper. I will cook it outside in my fish cookers.:cool:

[andU]

:seeya: Cat,

I am truly SORRY:o I typed the wrong name. Please will you except my apology ?;)
What Gojo said just got me upset and i typed the wrong name.
i will take you fishing I live on the lake. Come on and go so i can make it up to you.-------------SORRY____________:(



Can I come? I love to fish and haven't been for over a year! We could have a 'Get to know you' picnic!

[andU]

Jayelles, I understand what you are saying about mud sticking. A friend said that at her work during a discussion about the McCanns, half thought they were guilty and half thought they were innocent. I have never seen anyone so shattered as Kate McCann and in my opinion there is no doubt about their sincerity.

About the police, I am very serious about the corruption. It seems there is only one person who is screaming about the McCann's guilt. And without being too vulgar, it is a bit like being in a car of four people when someone breaks wind. Each person will know it could have been one of the other three, but the person who screams the first and loudest is usually the perpetrator. And Amaral is still screaming long after he should have been quiet. Another pointer is the Marrakech affair. Police had to wait a week, and when they finally got there the tape at the petrol station was erased (http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/09/23/sighting-no2-but-cops-did-nothing-98487-19833529/). Maybe they had to organise someone to go and erase the tape first - who erase security tapes after a week anyway. It is amazing that noone has accused Amaral and others of being co-conspirators - probably because everyone feels Amaral is the only hope of getting her back. If anyone wants to find the abductor - ask Amaral - I am sure he knows. I used to think Amaral was criminally negligent - now I just think he is a criminal.


You've made some very good and interesting points! I agree with you.

[gojo]

SNIPPED---------

I don't think any of us are in a position to tell other posters what to quote from and which are to be trusted or not. It is up to the reader to accept the source, the important thing is that a source is provided IMO.

What is your source that "The Mail" is not trustworthy?
You posted that information as fact. Opinions are interesting but fact should be supported IMO.
------------------------------------

Howdy, Cat. No insult intended. Believe what you want to believe. All I did was read some Post stories. That told me all I needed to know about that rag. Believe what you want to believe.

--Gojo

[gojo]

Welcome to the board, Gojo. So, are you a journalist? You don't have to answer, of course, but it sounds like you may be.

Thanks, Andu. I'd rather be fishing.

I don't now work as a journalist, but I once did. I reckon that makes me highly critical of media.

--Gojo

[andU]

Thanks, Andu. I'd rather be fishing.

I don't now work as a journalist, but I once did. I reckon that makes me highly critical of media.

--Gojo

I'd rather be fishing, too! :)
Thanks for answering my question; I am critical of the media these days, too. It seems all about ratings for them; nevermind the facts or who said what.

[gojo]

SNIPPED------------

Why would people accept stories from a source which has been proved unerliable time and time again? That's what I don't understand. Then again, most of us wouldn't believe that anyone could be conned by the scam e-mails from Africa until we hear about the many people who decide to ignore the warnings and go on to get conned too. Some people just don't learn.

I take hope from the knowledge that despite the false stories and hurtful comments, the truth will come out eventually and THEN we'll know.

--------------------------------

People believe what they want to believe, Jayelles. If a source backs up their theory, they believe the source. Otherwise, the source must be false. You reckon?

[gojo]

A simple Google of "Robin Hoole" will tell you that he's not a janitor.
http://www.uclan.ac.uk/facs/science/forensic/staff/academics.htm#rh

----------------------------

I reckon you're right. I'm not used to googleing for information about a source. Is that really the way most people read the UK newspapers?

--Gojo

[Jayelles]

--------------------------------

People believe what they want to believe, Jayelles. If a source backs up their theory, they believe the source. Otherwise, the source must be false. You reckon?

I know I like truth and accuracy.

[JBRnotforgotten]

I agree with you 100% because hear say and no proof is just a bunch of lies to cover peoples @ss*s in my opinion ..Just because it is also written in tabloids does not make it true either...

[gojo]

[QUOTE=Nerida_F;9009669]So why was Madeleine taken? Probably for adoption (http://liberia.adoption.com/). Especially since adoption starts at 4years old from some NAfrican countries. I read somewhere that sometimes these kids can be scarred on their face so they look different and cannot be recognised.

---------------SNIPPED---------------------

I reckon I agree, Nerida. The kidnapper saw the family on the street, followed them to the apartment, hung around and waited for his chance. When it came, he took it.

I think she's still alive. I think someone wanted a child and Madeleine fit the profile. But now what? With all the publicity the case has generated, no one will be able to show up with the child. So I expect Madeleine will be released shortly. JMO of course.

[Jayelles]

I doubt very much that Amaral's demotion will stop him leaking about the case. He's a very angry man - especially now that he has been publicly shamed for his unprofressional approach to the investigation he was heading.

The latest smear to come from the Portuguese police (Amaral?) is that Amaral wanted to lock Kate McCann up because she "refused" to answer questions about the "evidence" found in the car. This is the same "evidence" which we now know has an entirely plausible innocent explanation.

So let's consider this. We've been told that Kate "refused" to answer certain questions. We have not been told the exact wording of those questions and we have not been told Kate's reasons for "refusing" to answer them. The McCanns are in a damned place - they cannot defend themselves against the smears because to do so would require them the break the conditions of their Arguidos status. Their choices are:-

1) remain silent and accept the smears
2) defend themselves against the smears and go to jail for 1-2 years.

What a terrible position to be in.

Kate went into those interviews with her lawyer. Most of us know that lawyers may advise their clients not to answer or comment upon certain questions. We know from the Ramsey case that these might be questions which are "fishing expedition" questions - designed perhaps to trap a suspect into a corner.

I personally believe that Kate was probably advised by her lawyer not to answer certain questions until Team McCann could have their own forensic tests done - something which she was entirely within her rights to do.

Sadly, there will be entire group of people who will NOT question this latest smear - despite 1) not knowing the details and 2) knowing that the source has proved utterly unreliable to date.

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/21221

BTW, I tried to post a comment on this webpage but my Norton anti-Phishing filter went crazy and prevented me from doing to!

[gojo]

JAYELLES SAID: SNIPPED

1) remain silent and accept the smears
2) defend themselves against the smears and go to jail for 1-2 years.

What a terrible position to be in.

Kate went into those interviews with her lawyer. Most of us know that lawyers may advise their clients not to answer or comment upon certain questions. We know from the Ramsey case that these might be questions which are "fishing expedition" questions - designed perhaps to trap a suspect into a corner.
--------------------------------------

I reckon I don't understand, Jayelles. Has Kate ever said why she agreed to be grilled for hours and hours? She knew the cops suspected her. What did she hope to accomplish?

I reckon her lawyer is at fault. Why didn't he convince her she could gain nothing from the grilling? You would think she is intelligent enough to see that. She had already told the cops everything she knew that would help find Madeliene.

So, is it too late for her and her husband to go mute? I don't know.

--Gojo

[Jayelles]

JAYELLES SAID: SNIPPED

1) remain silent and accept the smears
2) defend themselves against the smears and go to jail for 1-2 years.

What a terrible position to be in.

Kate went into those interviews with her lawyer. Most of us know that lawyers may advise their clients not to answer or comment upon certain questions. We know from the Ramsey case that these might be questions which are "fishing expedition" questions - designed perhaps to trap a suspect into a corner.
--------------------------------------

I reckon I don't understand, Jayelles. Has Kate ever said why she agreed to be grilled for hours and hours? She knew the cops suspected her. What did she hope to accomplish?

What did SHE hope to accomplish??? You mean by agreeing to be interviewed at length about disappearance of her child?

I would imagine she hoped to help police with their investigation. The McCanns have always said they'd do anything that was required of them.



I reckon her lawyer is at fault. Why didn't he convince her she could gain nothing from the grilling? You would think she is intelligent enough to see that. She had already told the cops everything she knew that would help find Madeliene.

So, is it too late for her and her husband to go mute? I don't know.

--Gojo

The McCanns are desperate for police to investigate them and get past them so that the search for Maddie can continue. We saw this in the vanDam case. "Going mute" won't achieve this - as we saw in the Ramsey case. That only makes people think you've got something to hide.

There is a HUGE difference between refusing to be interviewed and refusing to answer certain questions (which may be vague or ambiguous) on the advice of a lawyer.