Madeleine McCann Discussion

[Jayelles]

Out here in the great Northwest of the USA; 40 lb. blocks of salt are put out for elk, moose, deer, etc. in the woods; IMO the news reports deserve not a grain but a block of salt. So far, what I'm seeing smacks of desperation by the portugese police. Shades of Boulder, indeed, JMHO

The McCanns have been nothing but co-operative. Lets face it, even if they'd accidentally killed Madeleine, why on earth would they raise the alarm at 10pm and hang on to her body for 25 days before disposing of it? Everyone thought she was asleep in their apartment. So why not continue with that charade, then creep out in the dead of night and dispose of her body, then raise the alarm in the morning (i.e. an intruder came in at night and took her while we were asleep...)

Surely disposing of the body quickly would be of paramount importance - especially in a hot climate like Portugal?

What the Portuguese police are suggesting is just ludicrous IMO. The McCanns could easily have played the hysterical parents for a short period of time before escaping back home at the first opportunity. Why would they put their entire lives on hold to hang around the resort for months co-operating 100% with the investigation?

I just cannot make head nor tail of it all. They must feel as though they are in a nightmare which they cannot waken up from.

[Tober]

Does anyone know of an interview in which Gerry and Kate speak directly to Maddy, i.e. Maddy we love you, etc. ? I've only been able to find them saying "Maddy knows that we love her" and Kate saying "I'd like to tell Maddy that we love her," but she doesn't actually say it directly to Maddy.

[Mysteri]

Read in one of the London online papers today, the Daily Mail, that neighbours say that Mrs Mc Cann isn't easy going and has a violent temper.

Their challenge to the police: 'Find Madeleine's Body and Prove We killed Her' is blood-curdling !
Any normal parents would want her found alive !!
They need to be questioned some more ASAP !!

imo

[bullmoose]

Read in one of the London online papers today, the Daily Mail, that neighbours say that Mrs Mc Cann isn't easy going and has a violent temper.

Their challenge to the police: 'Find Madeleine's Body and Prove We killed Her' is blood-curdling !
Any normal parents would want her found alive !!
They need to be questioned some more ASAP !!

imo

Tabloids in the UK are even worse than tabloids here; anything quoted in them is less likely true than if published here in the Globe. And when I put the Globe in my birdcages as a liner, my parakeets protested loudly. My wife agreed that I should not torture the birds that way. JMHO:biggrin:

[bullmoose]

Does anyone know of an interview in which Gerry and Kate speak directly to Maddy, i.e. Maddy we love you, etc. ? I've only been able to find them saying "Maddy knows that we love her" and Kate saying "I'd like to tell Maddy that we love her," but she doesn't actually say it directly to Maddy.

To make those particular kinds of specific statements to Maddy, they would have, IMO, to assume that her and her kidnappers were sitting in front of a television set. I see no reason that they would have assumed that, since it was widely thought early on that she had been taken out the country immediately. JMHO:shrug:

[bullmoose]

Read in one of the London online papers today, the Daily Mail, that neighbours say that Mrs Mc Cann isn't easy going and has a violent temper.

Their challenge to the police: 'Find Madeleine's Body and Prove We killed Her' is blood-curdling !
Any normal parents would want her found alive !!
They need to be questioned some more ASAP !!

imo

You know, I think the BPD would be willing to help, they had a similar case just ten years ago; their experience in dealing with the media would prove invaluable. If they can get the pesky parents to confess, then all is well; all they need is a good long confession session. OOPS!? They already had one, but the McCanns failed to comply with the Portugese version of the BPD's reasonable request. Too bad, oh boy, what if she's alive and they've stopped looking??? Which they have, so I heard on the news. That would be a stickey wicket, right??? JMHO:biggrin:

[docwho3]

Please take note---->

Changes have been made to the Madeliene McCann forum. This thread is to be used for discussion and the thread titled "CL:Madeliene McCann/News Updates Only" is for news updates.

The reason this change was made was due to discussion getting lost amongst all the updates being posted.

Thank you
R

Well done. Thanks for the new thread.

[FDInLaw]

Tabloids in the UK are even worse than tabloids here; anything quoted in them is less likely true than if published here in the Globe. And when I put the Globe in my birdcages as a liner, my parakeets protested loudly. My wife agreed that I should not torture the birds that way. JMHO:biggrin:
LOL! You have a very good point! :seeya:

[elvislives]

Does anyone know of an interview in which Gerry and Kate speak directly to Maddy, i.e. Maddy we love you, etc. ? I've only been able to find them saying "Maddy knows that we love her" and Kate saying "I'd like to tell Maddy that we love her," but she doesn't actually say it directly to Maddy.

I'm making a leap here but I presume you are asking this question because in your opinion the fact that they didn't speak directly to Maddie is because they knew she was dead since they had killed her?

I've heard this type of speculation all over the news. Just curious, have you ever applied your principles of 'behavior as scientific evidence' to suspects who were later exonerated?

I ask this because I am very suspicious of interpretation of behavior as evidence and you appear to embrace it.

For example, after the Groene children were abducted and the rest of the family murdered, the prime suspect was the ex-husband for obvious reasons. Then he made a statement in a press conference to the effect of "Please let the children go, they had nothing to do with any of this." Well behavior and speach experts jumped ALL over this. 'They had nothing to do with WHAT???Obviously he knows something!!' He also made no direct appeal to his children and failed a polygraph. It turned out he was EXONERATED when the real perp was caught with little Shasta Groene who told the whole horrible story of what transpired.

I am not intending this to be at all critical. Just asking people to try and keep an open mind and not rush to judgement based on someone's behavior. People are unique and react to situations differently. I am not saying these parents are innocent-I don't know- but I am disenchanted with all the condemnation of the McCanns based on what they did or didn;t say or how should or should not have acted.

If there is scientific proof that they killed their daughter, then I'll be the first to deem them guilty. But until such evidence surfaces, they are innocent until PROVEN guilty imo.

[elvislives]

The McCanns have been nothing but co-operative. Lets face it, even if they'd accidentally killed Madeleine, why on earth would they raise the alarm at 10pm and hang on to her body for 25 days before disposing of it? Everyone thought she was asleep in their apartment. So why not continue with that charade, then creep out in the dead of night and dispose of her body, then raise the alarm in the morning (i.e. an intruder came in at night and took her while we were asleep...)

Surely disposing of the body quickly would be of paramount importance - especially in a hot climate like Portugal?

What the Portuguese police are suggesting is just ludicrous IMO. The McCanns could easily have played the hysterical parents for a short period of time before escaping back home at the first opportunity. Why would they put their entire lives on hold to hang around the resort for months co-operating 100% with the investigation?

I just cannot make head nor tail of it all. They must feel as though they are in a nightmare which they cannot waken up from.

I couldnt agree more, Jay. Like I said before, I will never say never, but this is looking more and more like a modern day witch hunt to me.

Like you, I have followed this case from the start. And the leaks from 'reliable police sources close to the investigation' have been all over the map. First they were certain she was abducted by a pedophile ring and was being kept alive as a sex slave in Malta or Spain. Then Robert Murat was the prime suspect for all sorts of reasons leaked by these reliable insiders. Now they are certain that the parents killled her accidentally and dumped the decaying body in between press conferences and police interviews.

Frankly I have lost faith in the Portuguese investigators. I think they need to call in the FBI or Scotland Yard. JMO

[bullmoose]

:seeya: I'm making a leap here but I presume you are asking this question because in your opinion the fact that they didn't speak directly to Maddie is because they knew she was dead since they had killed her?

I've heard this type of speculation all over the news. Just curious, have you ever applied your principles of 'behavior as scientific evidence' to suspects who were later exonerated?

I ask this because I am very suspicious of interpretation of behavior as evidence and you appear to embrace it.

For example, after the Groene children were abducted and the rest of the family murdered, the prime suspect was the ex-husband for obvious reasons. Then he made a statement in a press conference to the effect of "Please let the children go, they had nothing to do with any of this." Well behavior and speach experts jumped ALL over this. 'They had nothing to do with WHAT???Obviously he knows something!!' He also made no direct appeal to his children and failed a polygraph. It turned out he was EXONERATED when the real perp was caught with little Shasta Groene who told the whole horrible story of what transpired.

I am not intending this to be at all critical. Just asking people to try and keep an open mind and not rush to judgement based on someone's behavior. People are unique and react to situations differently. I am not saying these parents are innocent-I don't know- but I am disenchanted with all the condemnation of the McCanns based on what they did or didn;t say or how should or should not have acted.

If there is scientific proof that they killed their daughter, then I'll be the first to deem them guilty. But until such evidence surfaces, they are innocent until PROVEN guilty imo.
Sometimes, elvislives, as you recount the Groene case, only 40 miles from where I sit, certain of law enforcement, including the FBI had Steve guilty of vile murder. Its a mindset some cops get; they make their minds up and try to build a case based on what they think happened, instead of just following the evidence, like a successful detective like Lou Smit tries to do. The cops with this rigid mindset, as the BPD did, too, simply see everything as proving the guilt of the suspects that they've homed in on. God help the suspect that this happens to, unless they have good lawyers or the good luck, as in the Groene case, to have the real killer confess after being caught with the one surviver, Shasta. JMHO:seeya:

[bullmoose]

I couldnt agree more, Jay. Like I said before, I will never say never, but this is looking more and more like a modern day witch hunt to me.

Like you, I have followed this case from the start. And the leaks from 'reliable police sources close to the investigation' have been all over the map. First they were certain she was abducted by a pedophile ring and was being kept alive as a sex slave in Malta or Spain. Then Robert Murat was the prime suspect for all sorts of reasons leaked by these reliable insiders. Now they are certain that the parents killled her accidentally and dumped the decaying body in between press conferences and police interviews.

Frankly I have lost faith in the Portuguese investigators. I think they need to call in the FBI or Scotland Yard. JMO
I truly believe that even the BPD would be embarressed to have had anything to do with this case; at least they stayed with one unproven theory, how many have these clowns come up with?:eek: JMHO

[elvislives]

But didn't Scotland yard investigators cooperate in the investigation? Weren't the sniffer dogs brought in by British specalists? Wasn't it Scotland Yard experts who told the PJ how to handle the McCanns' questioning? It is said that British investigators actually watched Kate McCann testifying in the next room (with Kate being unable to see them), reading her body language in connection with the many questions which she refused to answer. This gives the impression that British experts cooperated intensively with the Portuguese police.

jmo

Rash- There is so much conflicting information being reported that its hard to make heads or tails of what if fact and what is fiction, but here is a news report recently posted by Odette:

Portuguese police ignored offer by Scotland Yard to review evidence

The Times - Sean O’Neill, Adam Fresco and David Brown - September 13, 2007

An offer to provide senior Scotland Yard detectives to review the evidence in the Madeleine McCann case has been ignored by Portuguese police, The Times has learnt.

Investigative reviews by an outside force are standard practice in Britain and occur after just a few weeks in murder and child abduction cases if no great progress has been made.

The Metropolitan Police, highly regarded internationally in homicide investigation, are understood to have offered the services of experienced detectives several weeks ago when the search for Madeleine was floundering. The McCann family is believed to have asked, independently, for a review of the evidence. But Portuguese police have not responded in either instance. .....

CONTINUED: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2441828.ece

[One2Snoop]

elvislives that link didn't work - here's the correct one..

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2441828.ece

What a shame they didn't take Scottland Yard's offer. They obviously need help from someone. IMO, JMO.

[bullmoose]

elvislives that link didn't work - here's the correct one..

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2441828.ece

What a shame they didn't take Scottland Yard's offer. They obviously need help from someone. IMO, JMO.

This story seems to back up what I've been suspecting; if you are out of ideas---why then blame the parents. Show your ignorance for all the world to see! Help, who needs help, we've got the parents to blame!:biggrin: JMHO

[One2Snoop]

I couldnt agree more, Jay. Like I said before, I will never say never, but this is looking more and more like a modern day witch hunt to me.

Like you, I have followed this case from the start. And the leaks from 'reliable police sources close to the investigation' have been all over the map. First they were certain she was abducted by a pedophile ring and was being kept alive as a sex slave in Malta or Spain. Then Robert Murat was the prime suspect for all sorts of reasons leaked by these reliable insiders. Now they are certain that the parents killled her accidentally and dumped the decaying body in between press conferences and police interviews.

Frankly I have lost faith in the Portuguese investigators. I think they need to call in the FBI or Scotland Yard. JMO

According to this news article, leaks are coming from within. We certainly don't know if this is true or not either. :shrug:

Who is revealing details about scientific evidence?

By law Portuguese police are prevented from revealing details of investigations. However, some officers have been secretly briefing Portuguese journalists.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2422967.ece

[Louisadelmar]

If someone with authority is doing housekeeping could they correct the spelling of Madeleine's name in the forum title?

[TuscanDreams]

According to this news article, leaks are coming from within. We certainly don't know if this is true or not either. :shrug:

Who is revealing details about scientific evidence?

By law Portuguese police are prevented from revealing details of investigations. However, some officers have been secretly briefing Portuguese journalists.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2422967.ece

I'd well imagine that those officials are being paid very well for their information. Look at how much the Enquirer paid someone for the Ramsey transcripts, for example.

There is not a chance those parents had the body hidden for 20+ days and then transported it under the watchful eye of the media.

[bullmoose]

FIND THE BODY AND PROVE WE KILLED HER

UK EXPRESS - By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz - Thursday September 13, 2007

THE parents of missing Madeleine McCann yesterday challenged the police: “Find the body and prove we killed her.”

EXCERPT: The change in the family’s tone – just days after the McCanns were still pleading for the search for Madeleine to continue – surprised sources close to the investigation.

“It seems remarkable that just days after the McCanns were saying they thought Madeleine was still alive and missing, now they’re talking about a body,” a source said. “I don’t know if this is really the McCanns speaking or just one of the people working on their publicity campaign but it is not the kind of comment to impress a team of detectives who think you’re guilty.”.....

CONTINUED: FIND THE BODY AND PROVE WE KILLED HER (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19042/Find-the-body-and-prove-we-killed-her)

But did they really say anything of the sort? Certainly they must have been upset to know that the cops are no longer looking for their kidnapped daughter, just trying to get them to confess. If they said it, doubtless its on tape and we'll soon hear it for ourselves; the Portugese cops are releasing anything they can think of, to try to pressure the McCanns. "A source" is not convincing when seemingly salacious leaks are involved. JMHO:eek:

[Its just me]

My prayers continue for little Maddie and her parents.

I'm not impressed with any of the news articles or the LE. Will continue to watch to see how this unfolds. Also prayers justice will be served with a perp or the LE and most of all little Maddie will be found. IJM

[dallasvic]

Now that Maddie's parents are home the LE will focus on finding Maddie. We need her home one way or another.


:rose: For Maddie & Family:rose:

[Its just me]

I think I'm right in saying the warrants were issued to seize a diary, computer and Maddie's stuff animal. Also on Fox News "One the Record" Greta reported via spokeswoman in Port. that permission had been obtained to search the church.

Another thing Greta discussed is the finding of evidence of a dead body in the apartment and how it is impossible for this to be if Maddie died there close to the time the parents went to dinner. Impossibe was my understanding.

Good news is the person who invented or played a major role in the invention of DNA has offered to testify on behalf of the parents. The name is in news articles on the news thread.

As Greta spoke with the spokeswoman in Port. it showed the appartment building Maddie disappeared from and where the parents moved to afterwards. After viewing this it's impossible for me to determine how the parents moved Maddie's body twice with out being seen. The church was also shown. If I understood the lady correctly the parents often went with others to the church to pray.
Only as I remember after watching news about Little Maddie and her Parents
Watching, Waiting and Praying. IJM

[Jayelles]

Tabloids in the UK are even worse than tabloids here; anything quoted in them is less likely true than if published here in the Globe. And when I put the Globe in my birdcages as a liner, my parakeets protested loudly. My wife agreed that I should not torture the birds that way. JMHO:biggrin:

Except that we don't have an equivalent to the Globe and Enquirer here. Tabloid means something entirely different here. There are two types of newspaper here - tabloids and broadsheets. It refers to the size of the paper. Broadsheets are massive and you'd have both arms stretched wide to hold them. Tabloids are printed on smaller paper.

Of course, we have trashy newspapers which focus more on gossip than on news (i.e. Daily Star, News of the World) and these aren't taken seriously. However, we have very strict laws which prevent the media from publishing anything about a police case which might prejudice a trial. These laws are called "pro judice". Had this been a British case, there would be nothing in the news about it at all.

The Ramsey case for example (trial by media) could not have happened here. John Ramsey has even stated this himself.

[Jayelles]

I think I'm right in saying the warrants were issued to seize a diary, computer and Maddie's stuff animal. Also on Fox News "One the Record" Greta reported via spokeswoman in Port. that permission had been obtained to search the church.

Another thing Greta discussed is the finding of evidence of a dead body in the apartment and how it is impossible for this to be if Maddie died there close to the time the parents went to dinner. Impossibe was my understanding.

Good news is the person who invented or played a major role in the invention of DNA has offered to testify on behalf of the parents. The name is in news articles on the news thread.

As Greta spoke with the spokeswoman in Port. it showed the appartment building Maddie disappeared from and where the parents moved to afterwards. After viewing this it's impossible for me to determine how the parents moved Maddie's body twice with out being seen. The church was also shown. If I understood the lady correctly the parents often went with others to the church to pray.
Only as I remember after watching news about Little Maddie and her Parents
Watching, Waiting and Praying. IJM


IMO, the fact that they are looking to seize Kate's diary and Gerry's laptop suggest that they don't have a strong case against them and are grasping at straws to build one. Had Kate and Gerry been involved in their daughter's disappearance, I doubt there would be a diary entry which read "Dear Diary, today we accidentally killed Maddie..."

[docwho3]

. . .I doubt there would be a diary entry which read "Dear Diary, today we accidentally killed Maddie..."

True but the diary could be used to help establish routines and that in turn could help an investigator spot when something falls outside of what is usual for the parents. Anything outside of what is usual could turn out to be important to the case.

Also if a diary entry turns out to have included false information about made up activities it might in turn indicate something else may have taken place but which was too sensitive to be included in the diary which the writer must have also felt would be read by outsiders at some point which in turn necessitated a false diary entry.

Note: Please notice I said IF in my sentence. This is all just supposition on my part and not a claim of any fact.

[dallasvic]

HI J & D3,

I do not think they will fine anything. They have hit a brickwall and aregrasping for straws. I know the computor has Maddies offical site on it. This is were Gerry posted a daily blog or diary as they called it and here is The link to it :

http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/middle/images/index_03.jpg


http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/dev/images/index_01.jpghttp://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/dev/images/index_02.jpghttp://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/dev/images/index_03.jpg

[Jayelles]

True but the diary could be used to help establish routines and that in turn could help an investigator spot when something falls outside of what is usual for the parents. Anything outside of what is usual could turn out to be important to the case.

Also if a diary entry turns out to have included false information about made up activities it might in turn indicate something else may have taken place but which was too sensitive to be included in the diary which the writer must have also felt would be read by outsiders at some point which in turn necessitated a false diary entry.

Note: Please notice I said IF in my sentence. This is all just supposition on my part and not a claim of any fact.

IMO, if they HAD solid proof that the McCanns killed their daughter, they wouldn't need to depend on post disappearance routines gleaned from diaries and blogs. Besides, Gerry didn't start the blog for weeks after Maddie disappeared.

[Jayelles]

The other beef I have is with the media reporting.

Headlines - "Police SEIZE McCann evidence".... "McCanns told they cannot use the Madeleine fund for their legal expenses"...

The first headline makes it sound as though the police had to raid the McCann home to obtain Cuddle Cat, Kate's diary and Gerry's laptop. In fact, what is more likely is that the police will simple ask the McCanns for the items and they will be handed over without hesitation.

The second headline is even more annoying because the McCanns had already made their own decision not to ask the fund for help with their legal expenses and had announced this earlier. The headline makes it sound as though they had asked and been refused.

What kind of people write these stories? It's as though they are really trying to turn public opinion against the McCanns and I think it shouldn't be allowed. I think they are getting away with this because the case is portuguese and not covered by our pro-judice laws.

Grrrrr.

[sluggie]

I think the media are getting worse and worse in the way they report things like this.
Alot of the infomation is from apparent leaks and rumors, which will not benifit maddie, at the end of the day they need to find her (dead or alive).

[Athena]

Originally Posted by odette
Judge Asked For Emergency Order

SKY NEWS
Updated: 22:40, Tuesday September 11, 2007

The public prosecutor in Portugal is reported to have asked the judge in the Madeleine McCann case to make an emergency order allowing him to seize a mystery object.

It is not known what or where the object is but the prosecutor has asked the judge to issue an order allowing him to have it within 24 hours.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...283521,00.html

Originally posted by Athena

Maybe it's Cuddly Cat

Looks like the police do want "Cuddle Cat" and Kate's diary:

But Gerry McCann's sister, Philomena McCann, indicated police wanted access to a soft toy, nicknamed Cuddle Cat, which belonged to Madeleine and which Kate McCann has kept with her. She said handing over the toy would be "extremely distressing" for Kate McCann and complained the police had been dragging their feet in the investigation.

"Everything they have done has been too little, too late. It is a disgrace they even asked for Cuddle Cat," she told Britain's Press Association news agency.

Media reports in Portugal and Britain said police also want Kate McCann's diary.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2182214,00.html

[elvislives]

The other beef I have is with the media reporting.

Headlines - "Police SEIZE McCann evidence".... "McCanns told they cannot use the Madeleine fund for their legal expenses"...

The first headline makes it sound as though the police had to raid the McCann home to obtain Cuddle Cat, Kate's diary and Gerry's laptop. In fact, what is more likely is that the police will simple ask the McCanns for the items and they will be handed over without hesitation.

The second headline is even more annoying because the McCanns had already made their own decision not to ask the fund for help with their legal expenses and had announced this earlier. The headline makes it sound as though they had asked and been refused.

What kind of people write these stories? It's as though they are really trying to turn public opinion against the McCanns and I think it shouldn't be allowed. I think they are getting away with this because the case is portuguese and not covered by our pro-judice laws.

Grrrrr.

On a brighter note, Jay, I caught a clip of a Brittish official (not sure who he was) saying that the Brittish government is reviewing their extradiction policy with Portugal. They are concerned that if the McCanns are charged and extradicted, then "a miscarriage of justice will follow".

I hope they are able to intervene if it becomes necessary.

[Jayelles]

On a brighter note, Jay, I caught a clip of a Brittish official (not sure who he was) saying that the Brittish government is reviewing their extradiction policy with Portugal. They are concerned that if the McCanns are charged and extradicted, then "a miscarriage of justice will follow".

I hope they are able to intervene if it becomes necessary.

OOh. I didn't catch that one. I'll look out for that.

[rashomon]

I'd well imagine that those officials are being paid very well for their information. Look at how much the Enquirer paid someone for the Ramsey transcripts, for example.
It is often the trash papers who are willing to pay a lot of money to informants, and it seems many underpaid PJ police officers couldn't resist the offer so far.
There is not a chance those parents had the body hidden for 20+ days and then transported it under the watchful eye of the media.
Just my opinion too. It just doesn't add up.

jmo

[elvislives]

IMO, the fact that they are looking to seize Kate's diary and Gerry's laptop suggest that they don't have a strong case against them and are grasping at straws to build one. Had Kate and Gerry been involved in their daughter's disappearance, I doubt there would be a diary entry which read "Dear Diary, today we accidentally killed Maddie..."

Dear Diary, today we accidentally killed Maddie...

We killed her (accidentally) because we injected her and the twins with a powerful sedative so we could go out and party with our friends. Unfortunately, this fatally depressed her central nervous system since we heavily overdosed her (we were simply hoping she would sleep late and not interfere with our hangovers).

When she became comatose with labored breathing, we decided not to take her to the hospital to reverse the meds since we already had dinner plans. So instead, we hid her body in the wheel well of the trunk and went to dinner with our friends , thus securing our alibi.

Upon returning for a "check" at 10pm, I ran back to the restaurant and feigned surprise and shock that she was gone. Of course I left the twins alone since I knew there was no real danger.

We immediately called the authorities, figuring that they would never suspect that her body was in the trunk and we'd have plenty of time to dump it after they arrived on the scene. We even went to great lengths to call in the international media and draw attention to our situation, hoping to fool the press into believing she had been abducted. It worked for a while.

In retrospect, we should have bagged her body before we put it in the trunk but we weren't thinking clearly as we were in a rush to get to dinner. Of course the heat and humidity caused a horrid stench from the decaying corpse so after 25 days we decided to dump her body at the church. I mean really, who would ever think to look there?

Sadly, Dear Diary, I think the Portuguese police have figured this all out. Gerry and I are quite distraught as we were certain that they bought our story....

[Jayelles]

Indeed - except that they didn't have the car at the time. It was either on hire to someone else or sitting in the car hire compound when Maddie went missing.

Dear Diary, today we accidentally killed Maddie...

We killed her (accidentally) because we injected her and the twins with a powerful sedative so we could go out and party with our friends. Unfortunately, this fatally depressed her central nervous system since we heavily overdosed her (we were simply hoping she would sleep late and not interfere with our hangovers).

When she became comatose with labored breathing, we decided not to take her to the hospital to reverse the meds since we already had dinner plans. So instead, we hid her body in the wheel well of the trunk and went to dinner with our friends , thus securing our alibi.

Upon returning for a "check" at 10pm, I ran back to the restaurant and feigned surprise and shock that she was gone. Of course I left the twins alone since I knew there was no real danger.

We immediately called the authorities, figuring that they would never suspect that her body was in the trunk and we'd have plenty of time to dump it after they arrived on the scene. We even went to great lengths to call in the international media and draw attention to our situation, hoping to fool the press into believing she had been abducted. It worked for a while.

In retrospect, we should have bagged her body before we put it in the trunk but we weren't thinking clearly as we were in a rush to get to dinner. Of course the heat and humidity caused a horrid stench from the decaying corpse so after 25 days we decided to dump her body at the church. I mean really, who would ever think to look there?

Sadly, Dear Diary, I think the Portuguese police have figured this all out. Gerry and I are quite distraught as we were certain that they bought our story....

[docwho3]

IMO, if they HAD solid proof that the McCanns killed their daughter, they wouldn't need to depend on post disappearance routines gleaned from diaries and blogs. Besides, Gerry didn't start the blog for weeks after Maddie disappeared. I think they may be looking for confirming info and possibly trying to nail down the day the body was moved from place to place. This case is so sensitive that its import crosses borders of countries so they need to nail down all the facts they can. I was commenting on the warrant for the diary and not anything to do with blogs. I had not heard anything specifically about seeking records about the blog.

As to whether or not L.E. has solid evidence of wrongdoing I will wait and defer to those who have seen the evidence and who know how it was gathered.

Note: I certainly do not wish to see the parents convicted only on rumors and opinion and fought long and hard against that in the past on other forums as well. When none of the evidence had yet been made public in news reports I posted many times (elsewhere) that the parents should not be accused of the crime without any evidence and without being named suspects in the case but should instead be treated as victims. But now they ARE official suspects and it is reported in news reports that evidence has indeed surfaced. So I guess all we can do now is wait and see what that evidence consists of. In the end I think most of the answers will be known.

[Jayelles]

It says in today's Sun newspaper that some benefactors have offered to pay their legal expenses.

Also in the news today - one of the country's leading experts on DNA a Dr Jeffries, has offered to be an expert witness for them because he thinks the interpretation of the DNA evidence being forwarded by the Portuguese police is seriously flawed.

I've heard of this Dr Jeffries before. I think he might have been on some tv programme I'e watched.

[andU]

It says in today's Sun newspaper that some benefactors have offered to pay their legal expenses.

Also in the news today - one of the country's leading experts on DNA a Dr Jeffries, has offered to be an expert witness for them because he thinks the interpretation of the DNA evidence being forwarded by the Portuguese police is seriously flawed.

I've heard of this Dr Jeffries before. I think he might have been on some tv programme I'e watched.


Is he the doctor that 'defined' DNA? ... or the process of identifying it?

[Jayelles]

Is he the doctor that 'defined' DNA? ... or the process of identifying it?

I can't honestly remember. There was another doctor/scientist on tv talking about the McCann case and she explained all about how they amplified a single cell. She's been on tv a couple of times and she's very good. She too has doubts about the DNA evidence with regard to what it means.

[Athena]

Dear Diary, today we accidentally killed Maddie...

We killed her (accidentally) because we injected her and the twins with a powerful sedative so we could go out and party with our friends. Unfortunately, this fatally depressed her central nervous system since we heavily overdosed her (we were simply hoping she would sleep late and not interfere with our hangovers).

When she became comatose with labored breathing, we decided not to take her to the hospital to reverse the meds since we already had dinner plans. So instead, we hid her body in the wheel well of the trunk and went to dinner with our friends , thus securing our alibi.

Upon returning for a "check" at 10pm, I ran back to the restaurant and feigned surprise and shock that she was gone. Of course I left the twins alone since I knew there was no real danger.

We immediately called the authorities, figuring that they would never suspect that her body was in the trunk and we'd have plenty of time to dump it after they arrived on the scene. We even went to great lengths to call in the international media and draw attention to our situation, hoping to fool the press into believing she had been abducted. It worked for a while.

In retrospect, we should have bagged her body before we put it in the trunk but we weren't thinking clearly as we were in a rush to get to dinner. Of course the heat and humidity caused a horrid stench from the decaying corpse so after 25 days we decided to dump her body at the church. I mean really, who would ever think to look there?

Sadly, Dear Diary, I think the Portuguese police have figured this all out. Gerry and I are quite distraught as we were certain that they bought our story....

Oh my; I was kind of taken aback when I first glanced at this post. I am at work and don't have time to scrutinize the posts. You are trying to get me fired!!! :eek:

[One2Snoop]

I can't honestly remember. There was another doctor/scientist on tv talking about the McCann case and she explained all about how they amplified a single cell. She's been on tv a couple of times and she's very good. She too has doubts about the DNA evidence with regard to what it means.

I know nothing about DNA but if you have 2 different Docs who think the interpretation of the DNA evidence is flawed or has been misinterpreted, thats certainly something worth looking into.

[One2Snoop]

Oh my; I was kind of taken aback when I first glanced at this post. I am at work and don't have time to scrutinize the posts. You are trying to get me fired!!! :eek:

I actually think that post is tacky and in poor taste. I think it should be removed. IMO, JMO.

[bullmoose]

I actually think that post is tacky and in poor taste. I think it should be removed. IMO, JMO.

Actually, I think the post was hilarious; exceptin the car, which they hadn't rented for 25 days, it appears to be the "case?" that the Portugese cops have come up with. It is the police mindset that ridiculous here, IMHO:biggrin:

[One2Snoop]

Actually, I think the post was hilarious; exceptin the car, which they hadn't rented for 25 days, it appears to be the "case?" that the Portugese cops have come up with. It is the police mindset that ridiculous here, IMHO:biggrin:

I guess if you look at it that way, perhaps. Maybe elvislives should have included that at the top of the post LOL. :patriot:

[elvislives]

Oh my; I was kind of taken aback when I first glanced at this post. I am at work and don't have time to scrutinize the posts. You are trying to get me fired!!! :eek:

My apologies, Athena. I did not mean to be offensive but was merely trying to point out the absurdity of some of the things being reported. I guess sarcasm doesn't go over well here.

[elvislives]

I actually think that post is tacky and in poor taste. I think it should be removed. IMO, JMO.

I am very sorry One2Snoop. I was not trying to be distasteful at all but was attempting to point out the absurdity of the recent news reports. This IS the story that has been leaked by the Portuguese police. I find it rather ludicrous but apparently many others do not. Again, I am sorry I offended you, that was not my intent. I do have a sarcastic personality at times but perhaps this forum is not a good fit for me. I will ask the mods to remove my posts.

[One2Snoop]

I am very sorry One2Snoop. I was not trying to be distasteful at all but was attempting to point out the absurdity of the recent news reports. This IS the story that has been leaked by the Portuguese police. I find it rather ludicrous but apparently many others do not. Again, I am sorry I offended you, that was not my intent. I do have a sarcastic personality at times but perhaps this forum is not a good fit for me. I will ask the mods to remove my posts.

Sometimes I'm a little slow. :punch: I don't think you should have your posts removed just because I didn't get it LOL It's all good now. :seeya:

[Athena]

My apologies, Athena. I did not mean to be offensive but was merely trying to point out the absurdity of some of the things being reported. I guess sarcasm doesn't go over well here.

Oh no elvis...... I knew you meant it in sarcasm. It was my initial reaction and then realizing that is exactly how you intended it. As someone said above it's more like you've zoned in on the police mentality and what they think they will find in her diary. Sorry if I confused you .... I was at work and I kind of said "oh sh** before I realized it was sarcasm thus my statement about being fired 'cause I said it out loud and did not even know who posted it as I glanced at it. LOL

[Devotion]

Indeed - except that they didn't have the car at the time.
It was either on hire to someone else or sitting in the car hire compound when Maddie went missing.

:confused: Is there any chance that one of their friends had this same car rented at the time of M.'s death?...jmo

[Devotion]

Dr. Badin on Greta (http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?091007/091007_greta_baden&On_the_Record&Dr.%20Baden%27s%20Take&acc&On%20the%20Record&-1&Shows&205&&&new)

VAN SUSTEREN: ... the two babies that they — and I guess that we don't know if they truly are both the biological parents of these —
of Madeleine.
So any blood that was found, would that have a DNA twist to it in terms of trying to determine...

BADEN: That would. When they say it matches Madeleine, how do they know what Madeleine's DNA is? They haven't found Madeleine. They don't know what her DNA is.
And the parents would know whether or not it was his sperm and her egg, but.....

:read: BUT...is right....I've read horror stories of OTHER parents eggs and sperm being mixed-up/ accidently or otherwise and it took an emergency situation with their child before the parents discovered what "mix-up" the doctor had done.....
of course some people choose to use someones "egg" or "sperm",
Seems in that situation the child's DNA would NOT remotely match the parents.
I'm not implying anything, just thought I'd mention this....imo

[One2Snoop]

:confused: Is there any chance that one of their friends had this same car rented at the time of M.'s death?...jmo

I think that would all depend on whether or not this is a big tourist area? High demand for rental cars? Was it rented from the same car rental agency? so on and so fourth. What are the chances its the same vehicle? :shrug: I find it highly unlikely its the same vehicle unless the McCann's requested it, which I would find very strange. :confused: IMO, JMO

[Jayelles]

:read: BUT...is right....I've read horror stories of OTHER parents eggs and sperm being mixed-up/ accidently or otherwise and it took an emergency situation with their child before the parents discovered what "mix-up" the doctor had done.....
of course some people choose to use someones "egg" or "sperm",
Seems in that situation the child's DNA would NOT remotely match the parents.
I'm not implying anything, just thought I'd mention this....imo

There's no doubt in my mind that the McCann children belong to Kate and Gerry biologically. The girls look like Kate and the little boy is the spitting image of his father and Aunt Philomena!

I think it is irresponsible of journalists to make any such suggestions. I came to the Ramsey case late and missed out on the early media dirt dishing and misinformation. If this is an example of how it works, then I'm disgusted. Misleading and sensational speculative journalism should carry a penalty.

[Jayelles]

I am very sorry One2Snoop. I was not trying to be distasteful at all but was attempting to point out the absurdity of the recent news reports. This IS the story that has been leaked by the Portuguese police. I find it rather ludicrous but apparently many others do not. Again, I am sorry I offended you, that was not my intent. I do have a sarcastic personality at times but perhaps this forum is not a good fit for me. I will ask the mods to remove my posts.

Your "Dear Diary" post was spot on IMO in its absurdity. ANother thing the portuguese police don't seem to have thought about is to seize Kate's holiday packing list:-

suncream
sandals
swimming costumes
sleeping pills
syringes
SPADE....

You know? - how some people pack a spade in their holiday suitcase just in case they accidentally kill one of the kids with the syringe and sleeping pills and have to bury them quickly?

:rolleyes:

[bullmoose]

Your "Dear Diary" post was spot on IMO in its absurdity. ANother thing the portuguese police don't seem to have thought about is to seize Kate's holiday packing list:-

suncream
sandals
swimming costumes
sleeping pills
syringes
SPADE....

You know? - how some people pack a spade in their holiday suitcase just in case they accidentally kill one of the kids with the syringe and sleeping pills and have to bury them quickly?

:rolleyes:

Over here in the states we call them shovels. If the portugese police had thought to seize Kates' shovel, they might be able to match the dirt on it to the burial site. I do not believe the police found the massive syringe the McCann's usually used on the children, which reportedly was three feet long, and which might be the place the body was hidden all that time. I suspect the plunger was removed and the body placed inside, for burial. No doubt the sniffer dogs will find it just so. These seem to be pretty sharp cops; at least as cops go; no, wait,no, they don't really sound too bright to me, after all. What they need is a good detective to show them the way[and write another classic murder whodunnit]. Just kidding,JMHO:biggrin:

[Jayelles]

Over here in the states we call them shovels. If the portugese police had thought to seize Kates' shovel, they might be able to match the dirt on it to the burial site. I do not believe the police found the massive syringe the McCann's usually used on the children, which reportedly was three feet long, and which might be the place the body was hidden all that time. I suspect the plunger was removed and the body placed inside, for burial. No doubt the sniffer dogs will find it just so. These seem to be pretty sharp cops; at least as cops go; no, wait,no, they don't really sound too bright to me, after all. What they need is a good detective to show them the way[and write another classic murder whodunnit]. Just kidding,JMHO:biggrin:

Indeed. I think you've probably solved it regarding the 3ft syringe.

Small point - A spade and a shovel are two different things here. A spade is for digging and has a flatter, sharper shape and a shovel is for moving soil or snow or rubble and is larger and more curved in shape. Maybe they packed one of each? :rolleyes:

Incidentally, I've read the France Soir article and it is by no means as "definite" as is being reported elsewhere. It's quite carefully worded.... the usual unnamed sources providing the information.

[Jayelles]

I'd also be suspicious of the translation of Kate's diary (assuming that the latest "leaked excerpts" are indeed from her diary at all!).

A friend of mine had a poor obstetric history and had lost two babies. When she got pregnant again, she was asked by a foreign doctor how she felt and she said that she was delighted, but "anxious" (in case anything went wrong). Imagine her surprise when she later found out that the doctor had recorded the visit and had described her as feeling "unstable"! This is quite different from anxious and under certain circumstances, could have been quite damning. Fortunately, she challenged it, fot the record corrected and received an apology for the mis-translation of what had actually been said!

[TuscanDreams]

DAILY MAIL - Last updated at 22:52pm on 13th September 2007

Madeleine McCann died from an overdose of sleeping pills, it was claimed yesterday.

French investigative reporter Guilhem Battut said a report outlining how the four-year-old met her death was already with Portuguese prosecutors.

The newspaper France Soir said it contains scientific analysis of the bodily fluids found in the boot of the car hired by Kate and Gerry McCann which "prove that the little girl had ingested medicines, without doubt sleeping pills, in large quantities". ....FRANCE SOIR - by Guilhem Battut, on Thursday September 13, 2007 with 00:50

GOOGLE TRANSLATED PAGE: Maddie would have died of an overdose

SCROLL Down To: Maddie would have died of an overdose

From Odette's post on the news thread.

So, if we are to believe that Maddie died from a sedative overdose that was given orally (pills) then why was blood on the walls? Give me a flippin break, this case makes no sense.

They need to get off the parents and look for Maddie.

[Jayelles]

From Odette's post on the news thread.

So, if we are to believe that Maddie died from a sedative overdose that was given orally (pills) then why was blood on the walls? Give me a flippin break, this case makes no sense.

They need to get off the parents and look for Maddie.

Heavy bleeding from the pin prick? Don't forget Bullmoose's point about the 3 ft syringe which doubled as a body disposal capsule. The needle could have been 3 inches in diameter....

Seriously, Maddie's grandmother made a good point about an abductor sedating her so that she wouldn't scream if she wakened up. If that were the case, it gives me hope that she's alive somewhere.

[Jayelles]

Deary me!

From Odette's thread:-

Investigators think her body was most probably dumped in a bag weighed down with stones and thrown off a British-owned yacht at high sea, according to reports in Diario de Noticias.

The Portuguese daily newspaper said police had already investigated the vessel, owned by an English sailor in Lagos near to the McCanns holiday resort of Praia da Luz.

SO now we have the McCanns apparently able to charm some British sailing folks into disposing of their daughter's body for them! How exactly are they supposed to have achieved this?

Latest Ridiculous Scenario. The McCanns family are strolling along the marina in Praia da Luz. Kate is carrying a twin on each hip and Gerry is staggering under the weight of a large bag which looks as though it might contain a body and some rocks. They eye up the visiting yachts until they see one with the familiar Union Jack flying in the stern - indicating that the British crew are aboard.

Gerry/Kate - "Permission to come aboard chaps?"
Skipper - "Permission granted land lubbers. What can we do you for?"
Gerry/Kate - Well it's a bit embarassing actually. We overdid the sleeping pills and syringe thingee. Darned nuisance. Wondering if you chaps could do us a grand favour and ditch this somewhere. We've weighted it down with some nice pink rocks from the beach - she'd like that.
Skipper - No probs me hearties. G&T?
Gerry/Kate - Super. It's been a long night....

(groans...) :rolleyes:

[andU]

I posted a link in the News Update thread to an article in NEWSWEEK. In that article, the 'sedative' that the McCanns gave their children is stated to be the equalivant of Tylenol Cold (this is what parents in US give their children and can be purchased over the counter). I'm not pro or con; just pointing out that the cultural differences may be a huge factor (as has already be proven) in this case.
NEWSWEEK also points out the similarities to the Ramsey case, FYI.

OT: Does anyone know why this thread and the posts just sprawl all over the screen? It seems they are not set up like the other threads or something.

[bullmoose]

I posted a link in the News Update thread to an article in NEWSWEEK. In that article, the 'sedative' that the McCanns gave their children is stated to be the equalivant of Tylenol Cold (this is what parents in US give their children and can be purchased over the counter). I'm not pro or con; just pointing out that the cultural differences may be a huge factor (as has already be proven) in this case.
NEWSWEEK also points out the similarities to the Ramsey case, FYI.

OT: Does anyone know why this thread and the posts just sprawl all over the screen? It seems they are not set up like the other threads or something.
I was cursing the HP of my daughter until you made me aware it was not just me suffering. Jayelles, we have just shovels here, all sorts of--shovels. The only spade we have left is the suit in a deck of cards; the English language chages so much from place to place. I've three cousins in Canada that grew up within miles of me but who emigrated up north of me into B.C. that I've trouble understanding at times; not their accents, but the phrasing, words and terminology used there and here just south of the border that mean entirely different things. I'm sure that anyone trying to steal Kate's diary to sell to the tabloids if Portugese is proably butchering the translation and meaning. Next the authorities will be claiming British Flying Saucers took the body out to sea for disposal. As Bugs Bunny would say: "what a bunch of maroons!". JMHO:biggrin:

[Jayelles]

I posted a link in the News Update thread to an article in NEWSWEEK. In that article, the 'sedative' that the McCanns gave their children is stated to be the equalivant of Tylenol Cold (this is what parents in US give their children and can be purchased over the counter). I'm not pro or con; just pointing out that the cultural differences may be a huge factor (as has already be proven) in this case.
NEWSWEEK also points out the similarities to the Ramsey case, FYI.

OT: Does anyone know why this thread and the posts just sprawl all over the screen? It seems they are not set up like the other threads or something.

It could be Calpol then andU. I posted somewhere (poss this thread) that I'd never heard of anyone giving sleeping sedatives to a child, but that Calpol was sometimes used to settle children who are grizzly or feverish. When we were going on holiday to Florida some years ago, I asked the pharmacist if I would be able to buy Calpol in the US if I needed it and he said no, they didn't have Calpol in the US, but that I should ask for "Baby Tylenol" which was an equivalent.

You'll find Calpol in practically every household with children in the UK. LIke many other Mums of small children, I keep a couple of sachets of it in my handbag.

[andU]

It could be Calpol then andU. I posted somewhere (poss this thread) that I'd never heard of anyone giving sleeping sedatives to a child, but that Calpol was sometimes used to settle children who are grizzly or feverish. When we were going on holiday to Florida some years ago, I asked the pharmacist if I would be able to buy Calpol in the US if I needed it and he said no, they didn't have Calpol in the US, but that I should ask for "Baby Tylenol" which was an equivalent.

You'll find Calpol in practically every household with children in the UK. LIke many other Mums of small children, I keep a couple of sachets of it in my handbag.

Yes, I believe that is what was stated. Thank you!

[Eagle1]

From the same article above:

Ben Affleck has offered to withdraw his latest film amid concerns that the Disney production, about the abduction of a four-year old girl, could prove insensitive.

In Gone Baby Gone, Affleck’s directorial debut, the girl is snatched from her bed as her mother leaves her alone in the house. The child actress playing the role, Madeline O’Brien, is said to bear a similarity to Madeleine McCann. The film is due to open in Britain on November 23.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2434668.ece

The above quote of Athena is from Pg 12, and probably there have been comments since then, but I'm still catching up on reading and didn't want us to lose track of this.

In the Ramsey case, we have talked about movie buffs a lot. Could one be involved in this case too? Affleck noticed it. Athena too. I'm not the only one who feels this is noteworthy. Very much so. There's still about 5 or 6 pgs before I'm caught up, so hopefully I'll see something more about this, but if not, I do want to remind us of the subject.

[Eagle1]

What if Maddie was put, alive but very sedated, into the tire well in the car, in very hot weather? (And the "friend" Jane had been truthful that she saw a man carrying a child in pink pj's?)

Dr. Baden said unless the body was wrapped, it would leave a lot of material behind in the car as it decayed.

What if she was wrapped in a blanket or SOMETHING, but not her head?
So that when she awakened, and maybe thrashed about trying to get out, some hair was lost?

Rash stated in #452 on pg 12 that They rented the car when they first arrived in Portugal? Tober, I believe, asked if they checked all who had the car in that interim between the McCanns' arrival and the 25 days. That certainly should be done.

What if nobody used it during all that time? And why would that be? It wasn't ever reported missing? Still thinking about the movie, HOW might a movie-buff perp from the Ramsey case locate a real live 4-yr old Madeleine resembling a child in a movie, so many COINCIDENCES?

Impossible? He'd have to be an unprecedented world-class spy who could find out all about any and every family in the world? Using a computer? How? I can picture some nut being that interested in coincidences, but of course I don't know or want to know how computers work. They've found some Bible codes with them. And just reading intrigue prophecies as an amateur, one can find there's to be someone from whom nobody can keep any secrets, somehere in Ezekiel if I remember correctly. Maybe somewhere around chapter 32. You'd want to read a lot of the context. Does that give the concept some credence? He'd have to be using some kind of technology.

BTW, all copies of the tabloid STAR seemed to be sold out yesterday at the grocery except one, from which maybe the predictions had been removed, because it seemed thinner than normal tabs. I don't think they usually give any scripture references, just make it up(?)

Don't laugh at me thinking so far outside the box. I heard part of some news that someone said JFK Jr.'s plane, or Flight 255. or something was shot down by the CIA. Thought I'd hear it again and be able to report more accurately, but guess that wouldn't be politically correct. Sorry I didn't listen quite closely enough. We're sure in the twilight zone here trying to guess something with almost no clues so far. What could they get from the Cuddle Cat?

I'm a fence-sitter as usual about parental guilt or involvement, until we have more facts, as in the Ramsey case, but, prompt "cooperation" doesn't necessarily mean 100%, imo. Seems to me that in any case it could be somewhat deceptive. Certainly not saying they're guilty.

[elvislives]

Your "Dear Diary" post was spot on IMO in its absurdity. ANother thing the portuguese police don't seem to have thought about is to seize Kate's holiday packing list:-

suncream
sandals
swimming costumes
sleeping pills
syringes
SPADE....

You know? - how some people pack a spade in their holiday suitcase just in case they accidentally kill one of the kids with the syringe and sleeping pills and have to bury them quickly?

:rolleyes:

Thank you Jay and Bullmoose for taking my post in the spirit in which it was meant. I was actually very shocked that people were offended by that (you should read some of pms I got!). I would think if that post was offensive, that people would be horribly offended by what is being reported in the news, as THAT is precisely what is being reported!! Actually tho as Jay pointed out, my version was far less absurd than the news reports since I left out a the vital and highly risky part where they MOVED the decaying unwrapped body 25 days later under the watchful eye of the international press.


FWIW I did pm the mods and ask to have the post deleted, but they felt it was unneccessary . Riviera said she would remove it if I insisted, but it would require her removing and rearranging several other posts. Since I know she is swamped trying to organize this forum and others, I didn't want to create any additional work for her. But if anyone feels strongly, please pm Riviera and I'm sure she will oblige.

And Jay you left a few things out of Kate's packing list:

hypodermic needles and IV sedatives (which she must have STOLEN from the hospital before she left)

[bullmoose]

Thank you Jay and Bullmoose for taking my post in the spirit in which it was meant. I was actually very shocked that people were offended by that (you should read some of pms I got!). I would think if that post was offensive, that people would be horribly offended by what is being reported in the news, as THAT is precisely what is being reported!! Actually tho as Jay pointed out, my version was far less absurd than the news reports since I left out a the vital and highly risky part where they MOVED the decaying unwrapped body 25 days later under the watchful eye of the international press.


FWIW I did pm the mods and ask to have the post deleted, but they felt it was unneccessary . Riviera said she would remove it if I insisted, but it would require her removing and rearranging several other posts. Since I know she is swamped trying to organize this forum and others, I didn't want to create any additional work for her. But if anyone feels strongly, please pm Riviera and I'm sure she will oblige.

And Jay you left a few things out of Kate's packing list:

hypodermic needles and IV sedatives (which she must have STOLEN from the hospital before she left)

I worked for many years at the Sunshine Mine, which suffered a catastrophic fire in 1972 which killed 91 miners; I hired out in 1979, the mine finally shutting down in 2001. Until the day of the shutdown, on at least one level there was a place where a dozen bodies had been recovered, a week or so into the disaster; the temperature was approximately 100F, humidity 100%. I was told the smell of death was overpowering for years, the entire drift or tunnel had been quiklimed repeatedly in the years before I hired out for fifty yards in each direction, but the stench was still there, very slightly, when the mine shut down in 2001. The 3700 level, where this spot was, was allowed to flood because the pumps were turned off, so now if the area was ever to be pumped down to work again, maybe the smell would be washed out of the rock. But the smell of rotting bodies is hard to get rid of, I personally know several men on the body recovery teams who never would go underground again. My longwinded point being that if Madeline McCann had been dead for twenty-five or more days, or even a week, the stench should have been overwhelmimg. The only thing I've been smelling in this case is horseplop, provided by the Portugese cops in this case. JMHO:no:

[Mysteri]

What possible reason would the Portugese police have to frame the Mc Cann's. None, imo.

Often parents ARE the culprits.
I am still upset with the parents for taunting the police, 'Find the body and show us evdience we killed her."
I think they know where her body went and that it won't be recovered.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23412162-details/'Police%20believe%20Madeleine's%20body%20dumped%20 at%20sea%20in%20bag%20of%20stones'/article.do

[elvislives]

There's no doubt in my mind that the McCann children belong to Kate and Gerry biologically. The girls look like Kate and the little boy is the spitting image of his father and Aunt Philomena!

I think it is irresponsible of journalists to make any such suggestions. I came to the Ramsey case late and missed out on the early media dirt dishing and misinformation. If this is an example of how it works, then I'm disgusted. Misleading and sensational speculative journalism should carry a penalty.

ITA. I also came to the Ramsey case late and frankly I gave up on it because imo it is impossible to separate fact vs fiction. People state things as fact because they read it in a newspaper. Who knows what is true in that case and what is simply media hype?

I suspect if this case follows the same path (meaning neither the McCanns nor anyone else is ever charged or convicted) then the McCanns will be deemed murderers by many many people based on what has been reported in the news.

But it sure does give me a different perspective of the Ramsey case.

[elvislives]

I worked for many years at the Sunshine Mine, which suffered a catastrophic fire in 1972 which killed 91 miners; I hired out in 1979, the mine finally shutting down in 2001. Until the day of the shutdown, on at least one level there was a place where a dozen bodies had been recovered, a week or so into the disaster; the temperature was approximately 100F, humidity 100%. I was told the smell of death was overpowering for years, the entire drift or tunnel had been quiklimed repeatedly in the years before I hired out for fifty yards in each direction, but the stench was still there, very slightly, when the mine shut down in 2001. The 3700 level, where this spot was, was allowed to flood because the pumps were turned off, so now if the area was ever to be pumped down to work again, maybe the smell would be washed out of the rock. But the smell of rotting bodies is hard to get rid of, I personally know several men on the body recovery teams who never would go underground again. My longwinded point being that if Madeline McCann had been dead for twenty-five or more days, or even a week, the stench should have been overwhelmimg. The only thing I've been smelling in this case is horseplop, provided by the Portugese cops in this case. JMHO:no:

Actually you make a good point....Jay left another thing off Kate's packing list: formaldehyde. I am sure along with the shovel, she also packed several jugs of formaldehyde just in case...

But seriously, having had the experience of smelling decomposing human flesh I can assure you there is nothing else like it. There is no way to describe it. The best I can do is to say it is putrid and unbelievably foul to the point of causing nausea.

And I don't want to get graphic since we are talking about a beautiful little girl, but the theory that they held onto her corpse for 25 days in the stifling heat is totally ludicrous.

I did hear a theory that they stashed her body in the freezer of their apartment until 25 days later when they transferred it to the car but that seems equally silly since the apartment was crawling with forensic investigators.

[bullmoose]

There's no doubt in my mind that the McCann children belong to Kate and Gerry biologically. The girls look like Kate and the little boy is the spitting image of his father and Aunt Philomena!

I think it is irresponsible of journalists to make any such suggestions. I came to the Ramsey case late and missed out on the early media dirt dishing and misinformation. If this is an example of how it works, then I'm disgusted. Misleading and sensational speculative journalism should carry a penalty.

ITA. I also came to the Ramsey case late and frankly I gave up on it because imo it is impossible to separate fact vs fiction. People state things as fact because they read it in a newspaper. Who knows what is true in that case and what is simply media hype?

I suspect if this case follows the same path (meaning neither the McCanns nor anyone else is ever charged or convicted) then the McCanns will be deemed murderers by many many people based on what has been reported in the news.

But it sure does give me a different perspective of the Ramsey case.

The parallels are eerie between the two cases; botched investigations, from the start, then play blame the parents, at any cost, to cover the cops' butts for the mess. I don't think the McCann's room had a freezer in it, either. JMHO:shrug:

[elvislives]

What possible reason would the Portugese police have to frame the Mc Cann's. None, imo.

Often parents ARE the culprits.
I am still upset with the parents for taunting the police, 'Find the body and show us evdience we killed her."
I think they know where her body went and that it won't be recovered.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23412162-details/'Police%20believe%20Madeleine's%20body%20dumped%20 at%20sea%20in%20bag%20of%20stones'/article.do

You are correct, Mysteri, in that the majority of child homocides are perpetrated by the parents. And if it is found that the McCanns killed their daughter and lied about it, then I will be the first to condemn them. But at this point in time there is no reliable evidence to suggest that is so.

As far as the Portuguese police framing them, I personally do not think that is the case. I just think they are on the wrong track due to their inept investigation. The Portuguese police also named Robert Murat as an official suspect. Are you also certain that he was also involved since he was officially declared a suspect? I mean what possible motive would the Portuguese police have to frame him?

But lets hypothetically assume that the police did attempt to frame them. What motive could they possibly have? Money. Praiz de luz is a tourist trap and they would certainly lose hundreds of millions of dollars if tourists started choosing other vacation spots since they thought Portugal might be dangerous. So it is certainly possible to fabricate a sinister motive for the Portguese police, just like it is possible to fabricate a sinister theory as to how the parents may have pulled this off. Wild speculation is far cry from fact. ijmo

[bullmoose]

What possible reason would the Portugese police have to frame the Mc Cann's. None, imo.

Often parents ARE the culprits.
I am still upset with the parents for taunting the police, 'Find the body and show us evdience we killed her."
I think they know where her body went and that it won't be recovered.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23412162-details/'Police%20believe%20Madeleine's%20body%20dumped%20 at%20sea%20in%20bag%20of%20stones'/article.do

IF the McCanns ever actually said that, which I doubt, they have certainly been goaded beyond any reasonable point IMO, by the crass and insensitive turn of the cops in Portugal. I think the cops are bluffing; all these leaks are reminicsent of the Jonbenet case. JMHO:mad:

[Athena]

IF the McCanns ever actually said that, which I doubt, they have certainly been goaded beyond any reasonable point IMO, by the crass and insensitive turn of the cops in Portugal. I think the cops are bluffing; all these leaks are reminicsent of the Jonbenet case. JMHO:mad:

Exactly and Newsweek agrees with you:

The Madeleine story, which has echoes of the sensational JonBenet Ramsey case in the United States, is as big in Portugal as it is in Britain. With the McCanns under suspicion, the media sometimes seem to be taking sides in a saga that has highlighted a cultural divide in Portugal’s Algarve Coast, which in recent years has been colonized by British holidaymakers. “It’s probably the biggest story since Princess Diana,” says Matt Drake, a reporter for Britain's Sunday Express, who has been reporting from Portugal. For several weeks now, the Portuguese press has been chock-a-block with fact and fiction about Kate and Gerry McCann’s alleged role in their daughter’s disappearance, including some unsavory and unsubstantiated claims about the parents.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20765844/site/newsweek/

[Athena]

What possible reason would the Portugese police have to frame the Mc Cann's. None, imo.

Often parents ARE the culprits.
I am still upset with the parents for taunting the police, 'Find the body and show us evdience we killed her."
I think they know where her body went and that it won't be recovered.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23412162-details/'Police%20believe%20Madeleine's%20body%20dumped%20 at%20sea%20in%20bag%20of%20stones'/article.do

Really? Unfortunately there are police seemingly not just in the US that just want to be heroes:

Controversial past of policeman leading the McCann investigation
By Amol Rajan in Praia da Luz
Published: 11 September 2007

As the Portuguese press continued to round on the McCanns yesterday, newspaper columns remained pointedly silent on a separate investigation into the police officer leading the hunt for Madeleine.

Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2950302.ece
__________________

[bullmoose]

Really? Unfortunately there are police seemingly not just in the US that just want to be heroes:

Controversial past of policeman leading the McCann investigation
By Amol Rajan in Praia da Luz
Published: 11 September 2007

As the Portuguese press continued to round on the McCanns yesterday, newspaper columns remained pointedly silent on a separate investigation into the police officer leading the hunt for Madeleine.

Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2950302.ece
__________________

Boy, it just seems like it gets more bizarre by the day inthis case, don't it? JMHO:confused:

[One2Snoop]

Really? Unfortunately there are police seemingly not just in the US that just want to be heroes:

Controversial past of policeman leading the McCann investigation
By Amol Rajan in Praia da Luz
Published: 11 September 2007

As the Portuguese press continued to round on the McCanns yesterday, newspaper columns remained pointedly silent on a separate investigation into the police officer leading the hunt for Madeleine.

Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2950302.ece
__________________


:eek: Say what???? Very interesting. Is anyone else having a problem with the link?

[bullmoose]

:eek: Say what???? Very interesting. Is anyone else having a problem with the link?
Yeah, me too, the link doesn't want to work for me, either.IMO:(

[One2Snoop]

Yeah, me too, the link doesn't want to work for me, either.IMO:(

This is what I get after trying to access the article at the independent.co.uk.

Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@independent.co.uk and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

After searching several other sources I was finally able to access the entire article. I'll post it in the news updates.

[Athena]

Maybe the server was down when you tried because it works for me. I created a tiny url .... maybe this will help:

http://tinyurl.com/yqrbch

As the Portuguese press continued to round on the McCanns yesterday, newspaper columns remained pointedly silent on a separate investigation into the police officer leading the hunt for Madeleine.

Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

Earlier this year, Mr Amaral and four colleagues were made suspects ( arguidos) in the beating of Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation following the disappearance of her daughter Joana, who vanished from a village seven miles from Praia da Luz.

Joana's mother and uncle were convicted of murdering and dismembering her after she discovered them having an incestuous relationship. However, Mrs Cipriano claimed she was beaten up in custody under the watch of Mr Amaral and accused the police of setting her up.

She has produced graphic photographs of her face after interrogation which showed heavy bruising around her eyes.

In June, Mr Amaral and his colleagues were charged, three with torture, a fourth with omission of evidence and a fifth with falsification of documents. It is unclear which offence he was charged with.

http://tinyurl.com/yqrbch

[Jayelles]

Actually you make a good point....Jay left another thing off Kate's packing list: formaldehyde. I am sure along with the shovel, she also packed several jugs of formaldehyde just in case...

But seriously, having had the experience of smelling decomposing human flesh I can assure you there is nothing else like it. There is no way to describe it. The best I can do is to say it is putrid and unbelievably foul to the point of causing nausea.

And I don't want to get graphic since we are talking about a beautiful little girl, but the theory that they held onto her corpse for 25 days in the stifling heat is totally ludicrous.

I did hear a theory that they stashed her body in the freezer of their apartment until 25 days later when they transferred it to the car but that seems equally silly since the apartment was crawling with forensic investigators.

These holiday apartments have crude kitchen appliances. If there WAS a freezer, it would likely be large enough for a couple of trays of ice-cubes - no more.

[One2Snoop]

This is something I have a problem with - no doubt its purely speculation on Mr.Harvey's part and all I can say is since he reads chat rooms and message boards, I hope he reads my post regarding his latest article.

Mr. Harvey you have no clue do you? It sickens me to see these sorts of accusations written about the "Dr. McCann's". Emotions are different for everyone. Do you want to know what I see in these two people when I look at their pictures? Do you care? Probably not since my post won't sell newspapers, but I'm going to tell you anyway since I know you read message boards.

I see two very frightened parents. Two people who are very conservative/private people whose lives have been turned upside down because their daughters missing. They made a poor decision by leaving their children alone in their flat that night, but hey, guess what? They aren't the only ones who left a child alone that night. It appears another couple in the McCann party at the Tapas Bar did the same thing. I guess they were the lucky ones that night. :shrug:

Heck, if my life had been thrown in the limelight, "lights, camera, action", the paparazzi hounding me every waking moment, I'd probably appear just like the McCann's or worse. I think I would be worse and flipping the bird every chance I got, even though it would reflect badly on me. Does that make me or the McCann's a killer? NO!

Les we forget it was the Paparazzi that killed Princess Diana by hounding her every waking moment - can you imagine being the McCann's?


My point being....
I think everyone's forgotten (police included) who the focus should be on - Madeleine. IMO, JMO

Please find me and bring me home to my family....
http://i4.tinypic.com/4yrwrcw.jpg

By OLIVER HARVEY
Chief Feature Writer
September 15, 2007

MY misgivings began with the lack of emotion shown by the McCanns in those first few days after Madeleine went missing.

No streaming tears, no trembling lips, no sobs of despair.

Now that unease has become an awful gnawing doubt.

It hurts me to say this, but I now fear something is amiss with Kate and Gerry’s story.

I, like many others, have become obsessed as this awful story has unfolded. I even watched the McCanns flying out of Portugal live on TV.

It felt ghoulish and ridiculous — but I didn’t switch channels.

So is it possible the McCanns could bury their own daughter in secret and concoct a huge fiction to fool the world?

One theory in internet chat rooms is this: Madeleine is given too much sedative to help her sleep. She dies, by accident.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007421066,00.html

[sluggie]

until they find maddie, dead or alive(alive i hope but it's been along time now)
then alot of the so called evidence the papers keep reporting, is circumstancial
and all seems to come from leaks. at the end of the day the only people who truly know what evidence there is are the police and they are made to look like
headless chickens leaping from one theory to another by the media.

i don't think the media are helping by the way they are handling there reporting.

JMO

[One2Snoop]

until they find maddie, dead or alive(alive i hope but it's been along time now)
then alot of the so called evidence the papers keep reporting, is circumstancial
and all seems to come from leaks. at the end of the day the only people who truly know what evidence there is are the police and they are made to look like
headless chickens leaping from one theory to another by the media.

i don't think the media are helping by the way they are handling there reporting.

JMO

Exactly sluggie (welcome by the way). The media can either be your best friend or your worst enemy. In the case of the McCann's I see they were "best friends" and then the media went haywire with their "official leaks" which became the McCann's worst enemy. IMO..
Amazing to me what length some reporters will go to in order to "score" a story.
My belief at this point in time is 95% of the articles are sensationalism/gossip by the media. :no: :punch:

In the end, all that matters to me is the truth. Where's Maddie? :shrug:

[rashomon]

These holiday apartments have crude kitchen appliances. If there WAS a freezer, it would likely be large enough for a couple of trays of ice-cubes - no more.
Exactly. I've been in such holiday apartments too and can confirm that.
But even if there had been a king-size freezer in that apartment, the McCanns would have known better than to put a body there, knowing that the police would search the apartment.
The investigation in this case seems to be a total chaos. All info is given through the wildly speculating media only, very few official police statements exist.
Now the media seem to fasten on Robert Murat again. On and on goes the suspects roundabout ...

jmo

[Eagle1]

.................................................. .......................Now the media seem to fasten on Robert Murat again. On and on goes the suspects roundabout ...

jmo

Sat. Morning

Didn't hear this yet in the US, on last night's news reports. I sure hope something pans out, and soon.

[LindaA]

I haven't heard that as yet either (Murat).

This is a wonderful object lesson for all of us who are following old cases like the Ramsey case, to see how the press work and how people's views can be influenced by it.

On another note, I believe the police are anxious to name a suspect in this case not only because of the effect not solving this murder would have on the tourist trade, but because that is what they do. And, especially when it becomes known that they have made serious errors in the early days of an investigation, they are eager to solve any case to make themselves look competent. Another parallel to the JBR case, IMO.

[bullmoose]

This is something I have a problem with - no doubt its purely speculation on Mr.Harvey's part and all I can say is since he reads chat rooms and message boards, I hope he reads my post regarding his latest article.

Mr. Harvey you have no clue do you? It sickens me to see these sorts of accusations written about the "Dr. McCann's". Emotions are different for everyone. Do you want to know what I see in these two people when I look at their pictures? Do you care? Probably not since my post won't sell newspapers, but I'm going to tell you anyway since I know you read message boards.

I see two very frightened parents. Two people who are very conservative/private people whose lives have been turned upside down because their daughters missing. They made a poor decision by leaving their children alone in their flat that night, but hey, guess what? They aren't the only ones who left a child alone that night. It appears another couple in the McCann party at the Tapas Bar did the same thing. I guess they were the lucky ones that night. :shrug:

Heck, if my life had been thrown in the limelight, "lights, camera, action", the paparazzi hounding me every waking moment, I'd probably appear just like the McCann's or worse. I think I would be worse and flipping the bird every chance I got, even though it would reflect badly on me. Does that make me or the McCann's a killer? NO!

Les we forget it was the Paparazzi that killed Princess Diana by hounding her every waking moment - can you imagine being the McCann's?


My point being....
I think everyone's forgotten (police included) who the focus should be on - Madeleine. IMO, JMO

Please find me and bring me home to my family....
http://i4.tinypic.com/4yrwrcw.jpg


http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007421066,00.html

BRAVO!, BRAVO!One2Snoop! Well said, indeed, the tabloid press is like a bunch of foul-breathed buzzards, looking for victims. JMHO:seeya:

[Eagle1]

I haven't heard that as yet either (Murat).

This is a wonderful object lesson for all of us who are following old cases like the Ramsey case, to see how the press work and how people's views can be influenced by it.

On another note, I believe the police are anxious to name a suspect in this case not only because of the effect not solving this murder would have on the tourist trade, but because that is what they do. And, especially when it becomes known that they have made serious errors in the early days of an investigation, they are eager to solve any case to make themselves look competent. Another parallel to the JBR case, IMO.

Yes, there are so many parallels, I wish we could find out more about that movie, where they got the idea, what happened to the little heroine, and things like Was the hypodermic needle wiped clean of prints just like the flashlight in the Ramsey case? Someone also tried to frame them.

I just wish we knew all there is to know about that movie. Would those people tell us, who wrote it, where the idea came from, etc.?

[rashomon]

I haven't heard that as yet either (Murat).

It was in here:
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/19187

[rashomon]

Rash stated in #452 on pg 12 that They rented the car when they first arrived in Portugal? Tober, I believe, asked if they checked all who had the car in that interim between the McCanns' arrival and the 25 days. That certainly should be done.

I had written:
What is also strange: didn't Gerry McCann's sister Philamena say the family hired the car immediatlely after their arrival in Portugal? I read this on another forum and will try to get the source if necessary.
Eagle: I asked the poster on the other forum to give me the source.
She said it was a phone interview with Sky (?) replayed on FOX News. But she now thinks Philamena may have been talking about something else or even someone else because every report states the car was rented long after Madeleine went missing.

But how on earth could they have transported a decaying body in a car rented 25 days later? No way imo.

jmo

[bullmoose]

I had written:

Eagle: I asked the poster on the other forum to give me the source.
She said it was a phone interview with Sky (?) replayed on FOX News. But she now thinks Philamena may have been talking about something else or even someone else because every report states the car was rented long after Madeleine went missing.

But how on earth could they have transported a decaying body in a car rented 25 days later? No way imo.

jmo

Careful there Rashie,I'm in total agreement with you,and so I'm in shock. Really, though, there seem to be lapses in common sense in many of these 'leaks' on this case.JMHO:shrug:

[Portabella]

I am not near as "up" on all the statistics or facts of this crime as everyone else on this thread....however I do have an opinion. I feel compelled to write it, so please bear with me, I am usually very level headed and really examine what I am looking at and very adept at weighing out a situation.

I am going to take a leap here, ....I don't believe these parents killed their child. I believe they screwed up royal by leaving the kids unattended while they partied, I believe they may have even administered a calming med, such as Nyquil, or tylenol cold. But....I listen to everything and it is not really realistic.

I have some questions you educated people on the forum may be able to answer for me? How hard would it be to rent a unit close to the McCann's on short notice? How well do they check your credentials? How secure is the rent a car place, do they have camera's? How far did the McCann's have to park from their unit, looking at the layout, looks like the vehicle had to be parked a bit out from them, am I correct?

I have a theory, they supposedly are checking a neighboring unit for blood now, correct? This could be a set up by the perp, very easily....actually. I don't think the police are setting them up, I just believe they are ignorant. Help me wrap my mind around this a bit better, can anyone help answer my questions above.....Thank you in advance. :beer:

[Devotion]

What possible reason would the Portugese police have to frame the Mc Cann's. None, imo.

Often parents ARE the culprits.

I am still upset with the parents for taunting the police, 'Find the body and show us evdience we killed her."
I think they know where her body went and that it won't be recovered.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23412162-details/'Police%20believe%20Madeleine's%20body%20dumped%20 at%20sea%20in%20bag%20of%20stones'/article.do[/QUOTE]

:read: Right,
Parents or relatives are the culprits about 70 % of the time.
I'm guessing M.'s body was kept very cold or frozen til the coast was clear.
Did the parents have a key to any other apt, or able to get into another apartment that was empty?
Possibly the owners on vacation or one of their friends units?....jmo

[rashomon]

[Devotion] I am still upset with the parents for taunting the police, 'Find the body and show us evdience we killed her."But does there exist a reliable official source according to which the parents stated that?

[Results]

I think a lot of the behavior that the parents did after Maddy went missing are questionable. I also find it odd that NOW they are going to use some of the money to put up bulletins etc in the search to find Maddy. Why did they wait so long? IMO it should have been done ASAP to get her picture out there as soon as she disappeared because it would have been in the early stages and someone might have been able to see her photo and call a tip in immediately. Some things just doesn't seem to add up and some things really bother me in this case. JMHO

[Eagle1]

The police interviewed 3 people. One British man 50 years old, his mother 79 years old and a friend portuguese man. They left police station at 2am. No-one was arrested. As you said, the british man lives with his mother only 100 meters from where Madeleine disapeared. The man tried to infiltrate in the investigation since the begining. He was always near and asking the reporters how things were going. He even offered help to the police so that he would translate conversations between the police and british witnesses.

One jornalist from the Sunday Mirror reported his behavior to both polices.

The mother had some kind of stand on the street for colecting informations about Madeleine. She said it was for people who would not be confortable talking to the police they could go there and talk to her.

When Kate's diary about Maddie being hyperactive was discussed in the news, people were saying all mothers sometimes talk like that when they have several young children and husbands are away a lot or don't help much.

But the picture of Maddie that I'm always bringing up was part of a video, and showed her biting her lower lip, as if very worried. They showed it soon after that revelation about the diary.

I'm neutral, but haven't we always heard that one child is often singled out for abuse, somehow just rubs a parent the wrong way? Had she just been yelled at and threatened about her being so hyperactive, and did other doctors ever actually confirm that? Do they prescribe ritalin for hyperactive children in Europe?

Now they're also saying the "friends" may be accomplices, and this Murat man and his friend? If so many are involved, isn't it doubtful they'd all be killers, and could it mean she's alive somewhere?

Maybe Maddie had been terrorized by telling her she was being sent somewhere with other people for a while to teach her a lesson about being so hyperactive? Just beating the bushes.

[Devotion]

But does there exist a reliable official source according to which the parents stated that?

:shrug: Rashomon, I was not the person who quoted the McCanns.
I was responding to MYSTERI, page 57 #568..sorry I do not have an official source...check with Mysteri...for this answer..

[Sharon]

There's no doubt in my mind that the McCann children belong to Kate and Gerry biologically. The girls look like Kate and the little boy is the spitting image of his father and Aunt Philomena!

I think it is irresponsible of journalists to make any such suggestions. I came to the Ramsey case late and missed out on the early media dirt dishing and misinformation. If this is an example of how it works, then I'm disgusted. Misleading and sensational speculative journalism should carry a penalty.

ITA. I also came to the Ramsey case late and frankly I gave up on it because imo it is impossible to separate fact vs fiction. People state things as fact because they read it in a newspaper. Who knows what is true in that case and what is simply media hype?

I suspect if this case follows the same path (meaning neither the McCanns nor anyone else is ever charged or convicted) then the McCanns will be deemed murderers by many many people based on what has been reported in the news.

But it sure does give me a different perspective of the Ramsey case.

Elvis, I am not surprised at how events have turned here. It was the same with the Azeria Chamberlain dingo case, they even found blood in the Chamberlain`s car too that could only have been the babies...except that it turned out to be jam or something. And as we know the mother was sent to prison totally innocent. And yes, it was trial by media, trial by how much people liked the mother, trial by what she wore even!!! Everything but trial by facts.

And the R. case is also the same. I find it horrifying to see this pan out in front of my eyes in this day and age. And when I hear people with such `logic` deem well yes, the mother could have done it....its statistically likely....stranger things have happened etc.....well, I just shake my head in saddnes.

No doubt the parents, innocent as they are will now loose their house, future, all their money as well to stay out of jail. And no doubt for the next 10 plus years their will be gossip mongrols quoting every word reported, every facial movement acted and every action by the parents. They will be deamonised just as the R. have by many. It will be interesting, and I hope I am wrong and the real perp. gets caught, hopefully with Madelaine alive.

[dallasvic]

I know nothing about DNA but if you have 2 different Docs who think the interpretation of the DNA evidence is flawed or has been misinterpreted, thats certainly something worth looking into.


Hi O2S,
I totally agree. Another thing i think there is way to many leaks to the press this is why we are having to many conflicting stories for so many different paper. I am just going to sit back out see it played out.

[One2Snoop]

Hi O2S,
I totally agree. Another thing i think there is way to many leaks to the press this is why we are having to many conflicting stories for so many different paper. I am just going to sit back out see it played out.


I agree dallasvic - the latest I've heard is, the news media has decided to bring Murat back into the picture who is supposedly connected to some bald guy in a photo that Kate McCann took at the park while Gerry was playing with Madeleine, and the twins. The picture was beautiful and reflected nothing more than a happy family outing. Please make note, "This was just hours before Maddie went missing"!!!!!

snipped from the article...

The broad, bald man appeared in a photo taken by Mrs McCann as Madeleine played with her father Gerry and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie shortly before her disappearance.

http://www.news.com.au/mercury/story/0,22884,22424729-921,00.html

[dallasvic]

I agree dallasvic - the latest I've heard is, the news media has decided to bring Murat back into the picture who is supposedly connected to some bald guy in a photo that Kate McCann took at the park while Gerry was playing with Madeleine, and the twins. The picture was beautiful and reflected nothing more than a happy family outing. Please make note, "This was just hours before Maddie went missing


The broad, bald man appeared in a photo taken by Mrs McCann as Madeleine played with her father Gerry and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie shortly before her disappearance.

http://www.news.com.au/mercury/story/0,22884,22424729-921,00.html


:seeya: Hi O2S

They is really weird thet need to focus on those 2 IMO. Thanks for the article.:seeya:

[rashomon]

[Devotion]
Rashomon, I was not the person who quoted the McCanns.
I was responding to MYSTERI, page 57 #568..sorry I do not have an official source...check with Mysteri...for this answer..

Sorry, Devotion. I just went by your post in which it said:
What possible reason would the Portugese police have to frame the Mc Cann's. None, imo.

Often parents ARE the culprits.

I am still upset with the parents for taunting the police, 'Find the body and show us evdience we killed her."
I think they know where her body went and that it won't be recovered.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23412162-details/'Police%20believe%20Madeleine's%20body%20dumped%20 at%20sea%20in%20bag%20of%20stones'/article.do

Since you didn't quote Mysteri's name in your post I though it was you who said that.

I've found the original post now:
Originally Posted by Mysteri
What possible reason would the Portugese police have to frame the Mc Cann's. None, imo.

Often parents ARE the culprits.
I am still upset with the parents for taunting the police, 'Find the body and show us evdience we killed her."
I think they know where her body went and that it won't be recovered.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23412162-details/'Police%20believe%20Madeleine's%20body%20dumped%20 at%20sea%20in%20bag%20of%20stones'/article.do
Mysteri, how reliable is the source according to which the McCanns said that?

[TuscanDreams]

Parents are the most likely culprits when children are abused or killed. That said, it's a case by case basis and accusing the McCann's based on stats isn't fair, IMO.

After reading the posts, I think I have a clearer understanding of what "sedatives" may have been used. It could be something like Dimeatap,(probably spelled that wrong), a child's cold medicine.

Portugal screwed this case up so badly that I'm not sure anyone can piece it back together.

[Eagle1]

Good thing Kate took that snapshot. The "broad" bald man must be the one in beige pants, and if you print the article the pic does not print out. At least not with my equipment but I've bookmarked it.

Could it be, although I know this is unlikely, that Kate knowingly took the picture with the two guys knowing something was going to happen and she would need to defend herself? Hate to have to say it, but no stone can be left unturned, and they're going to re-question the "friends" over "conflicting stories". What unprecedented thing could be going on here? Maybe she's not dead? I dare to hope.

[LindaA]

It was in here:
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/19187

Thanks so much, Rash, for providing that link.

[Eagle1]

Maddie's pediatrician records might reveal something we haven't heard yet. Did he or she consider Maddie hyperactive?

Or was that just Kate's overworked-mom subjective opinion, unconfirmed? Did she even take Maddie to a pediatrician?

[WarmNCozy]

This investigation and media coverage is beginning to remind me of the Lindy and Michael Chamberlain disappearance of their baby daughter Azaria in Australia!

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/chamberlain/chamberlainaccount.html

[One2Snoop]

I thought this was an interesting comment made under one of the latest news articles...

There was a blonde haired boy - Ben? who went missing in greece years ago - hes never been re-patriated to the uk depsite lots of sightings and some photographs. When will these niave parents realsie that in foreign countries fare skinned fair haired children are worth a lot of money on the black market?

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/comments/viewall/19301

[Jayelles]

From yesterday's papers - "It is true to say that when a child is harmed, the parents are usually the culprits. That is not the same as saying they are ALWAYS the culprits".

Re Ben Needham missing in Greece. His uncle was (and may still be) a suspect in this. His uncle was quite young at the time - about 19 I think and there were reports of him behaving suspiciously after ben went missing. The uncle then claimed to have suffered amnesia and said he couldn't remember where he was or what he was doing when ben went missing. There was a programme on tv a few years ago where the uncle had offered to be hypnotised in order to clear his name. There was a lot of faffing around with him but eventually he went under and recalled his actions (which were all innocent). However, the psychologists/psychiatrists (can never remember who does what) said he was faking it. So the uncle remains a mystery. I posted about this at the time of the documentary because I thought forensic hypnosis seemed interesting. I'll see if my posts about this are still around at Websleuths.

[Jayelles]

Yesterday's evening newspapers and this morning' Scottish news are saying the Portuguese police are saying they don't have enough evidence to convict the McCanns. I didn't think so when they were asking for Kate's diary.

Yesterday's paper also said that the hairs in the car could NOT be matched to Maddie and that they couldn't even tell if they were from a male or female, young or old.

Yesterday's papers also reported that the car which was hired by the McCanns 25 days after Maddie went missing was in a compound for the week before and after her disappearance (i.e. the suggestion being that no-one had it).

I can't remember what papers these were in. I read them at the airport whilst I waited for a delayed flight and left them there because I had enough to carry!

[Eagle1]

I thought this was an interesting comment made under one of the latest news articles...

There was a blonde haired boy - Ben? who went missing in greece years ago - hes never been re-patriated to the uk depsite lots of sightings and some photographs. When will these niave parents realsie that in foreign countries fare skinned fair haired children are worth a lot of money on the black market?

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/comments/viewall/19301

Thanks, One2Snoop and Jayelles, for some new hope that Maddie may be alive! She was worth lots of money on the black market. The parents needed lots of money for something specific, or just wanted it?

Maybe this angle would explain why Kate seemed to be documenting the whole situation, taking a snapshot to include the two guys in the park,
and I don't know if she also made the video of Maddie looking so worried and biting her lower lip. That just might explain all that! Even the hypodermic needle planted in the cupboard as if to frame the parents!

This may be the very answer we're looking for, a breakthrough. So, I suppose the authorities in Portugal and everywhere in Europe are aware of this about Ben, and other similar cases? It's kind of strange to me that the news media didn't mention it before. It would have saved us a lot of puzzlement for a lot of days. Now, might the black market people still kill the child if she's alive and they have her, to protect themselves? Kate took the pictures in case they would want to find Maddie later? I'd already been posting speculation about the picture where she was biting her lower lip as if she'd been told something like she's being sent away for a while to teach her a lesson (?) I'll just bet no other doctor every confirmed Maddie was hyperactive.

Do they use ritalin for truly hyperactive children in Europe? If this blackmarket thing is the answer, and it does seem the most logical one right now to me, the diary entry could have been deliberate, knowing it would be asked for, that LE would be told by someone, G(Gerry?) that Kate kept a diary which would clear her. It could have been part of the plan. Maybe the blackmarket people had noticed how pretty Maddie was and propositioned the parents, an offer they couldn't refuse, thinking they would probably be able to get her back later?

[Portabella]

Although I acknowledge that the black market exists, I do not envision Maddie's parents selling her for any reason, especially not to teach her a lesson. That is just to far out there for me to even try and weigh out. I could agree that maybe this Murat guy and Baldie had made a plan and could be that they were trying to make a buck by selling the child, but....I think it may be alot more basic than that. I believe they need to establish that Baldie and Murat are connected to each other somehow, whether it be friends, co workers, old schoolmates and go from there.

If you look at the photo of Baldie, he seems very oddly out of place. His attire is off key for a resort even. If he is not in the play area with a child, (has it been established if he has children when they questioned him) then what would he be doing there. Also, did he have a room there, you would think being a high class resort they would have a form of security to ensure that only guests would be utilizing the play area. In that case, did he have a room at the resort.

I believe the hypodermic needle probably belonged to the McCann's, perhaps one of them has a drug problem, often happens to medical professionals as we all know.

I think the Portuguese police have not a leg to stand on when it comes to the McCann's and I believe there corruption is about to be proven. I think they tryed to have a media blitz so that they would have an easier time arresting the McCann's and I believe it was political, I think the pressure to solve the case prior to the next big tourist season would be the answer to that. I think blaming it on the parents would be alot lighter a black eye to the resort town, then to have it be know that they have possibly two child predators working the resort that happen to live within miles of said resort, that would be a hell of a black eye and run off some tourists.

I believe if anyone is scrutinized every minute and every facial expression, we all would be able to be made to look guilty of anything by the meda. I believe anyone with children has had weak moments where they have thought about their hyper kids in a negative manner and I don't believe because Kate whined about it in her PRIVATE diary is any reason to place that as levity about her guilt or innocence.

I however and sadly do believe Maddie has passed on and I believe she was probably gone within the first few hours of this ordeal.

[Jayelles]

Although I acknowledge that the black market exists, I do not envision Maddie's parents selling her for any reason, especially not to teach her a lesson. That is just to far out there for me to even try and weigh out. I could agree that maybe this Murat guy and Baldie had made a plan and could be that they were trying to make a buck by selling the child, but....I think it may be alot more basic than that. I believe they need to establish that Baldie and Murat are connected to each other somehow, whether it be friends, co workers, old schoolmates and go from there.

If you look at the photo of Baldie, he seems very oddly out of place. His attire is off key for a resort even. If he is not in the play area with a child, (has it been established if he has children when they questioned him) then what would he be doing there. Also, did he have a room there, you would think being a high class resort they would have a form of security to ensure that only guests would be utilizing the play area. In that case, did he have a room at the resort.

I believe the hypodermic needle probably belonged to the McCann's, perhaps one of them has a drug problem, often happens to medical professionals as we all know.

I think the Portuguese police have not a leg to stand on when it comes to the McCann's and I believe there corruption is about to be proven. I think they tryed to have a media blitz so that they would have an easier time arresting the McCann's and I believe it was political, I think the pressure to solve the case prior to the next big tourist season would be the answer to that. I think blaming it on the parents would be alot lighter a black eye to the resort town, then to have it be know that they have possibly two child predators working the resort that happen to live within miles of said resort, that would be a hell of a black eye and run off some tourists.

I believe if anyone is scrutinized every minute and every facial expression, we all would be able to be made to look guilty of anything by the meda. I believe anyone with children has had weak moments where they have thought about their hyper kids in a negative manner and I don't believe because Kate whined about it in her PRIVATE diary is any reason to place that as levity about her guilt or innocence.

I however and sadly do believe Maddie has passed on and I believe she was probably gone within the first few hours of this ordeal.

*IF* the hypodermic needle belonged to the McCanns (which I doubt) then there is a VERY simple explanation which does not necessarily mean that either was a drug addict. I have hypodermic needles and syringes in my first aid box and I would take these on vacation with me if I were travelling to any country which might have dubious medical services.

It's a simple safeguard against dirty/contaminated needles. I've never had to use them fortunately. I wouldn't have thought I'd require them in Portugal which I'm sure has excellent medical services like the other Spanish countries which I have visited.

[dallasvic]

Maddy waiters: Gerry was 'perfect dad'

MIRROR - Exclusive by Lucy Thornton in Praia Da Luz - 17/09/2007

Bubbly Madeleine McCann was a "Daddy's Girl", according to waiters who witnessed her last meal just hours before she vanished.

Staff watched as her "devoted" father, Gerry, appeared to be "the perfect dad" as he lifted the youngster on to his shoulders, bouncing her up and down.

She demanded his attention, repeatedly shouting: "Daddy, daddy, daddy."

But just hours later they saw a different side of Gerry McCann - a devastated father, disorientated, isolated and afraid. .....

CONTINUED: Maddy waiters: Gerry was 'perfect dad' (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/17/maddy-waiters-gerry-was-perfect-dad-89520-19801178/)


I thought this was interesting. They don't have a thing on Maddie's parents.A judge is balking at authorities, I would not trust the police over there if I was them.:no:

[Eagle1]

Although I acknowledge that the black market exists, I do not envision Maddie's parents selling her for any reason, especially not to teach her a lesson. That is just to far out there for me to even try and weigh out. I could agree that maybe this Murat guy and Baldie had made a plan and could be that they were trying to make a buck by selling the child, but....I think it may be alot more basic than that. I believe they need to establish that Baldie and Murat are connected to each other somehow, whether it be friends, co workers, old schoolmates and go from there. ...............
I however and sadly do believe Maddie has passed on and I believe she was probably gone within the first few hours of this ordeal.

Replying to your first two paragraphs first before unquoting most of it because others have quoted your whole post, your question seems to be Are "Baldy" and Marat or Murat associates, either of them resort guests, and are they dressed appropriately. They'd be asked a lot more than that!

A. Imo, all of us may resist a new idea just because it's new, not necessarily too far out at all, but , depending on what develops, may or may not come back to it or part of it. All that would have to be investigated. I'm just sowing the seed, for some hope. It couldn't hurt.

Just keep in mind that if Kate were in cahoots with these two guys, a certainly possible reason she included them in the snapshot, for SOME reason, when she could have focused in closer on just her family, that certainly would explain some things none of us have been able to explain otherwise.

I'm so grateful to One2Snoop for finding and posting this news, realizing what a break it could turn out to be. I just feel if LE could be corrupt, politicians, most anybody, and families like the Ramseys, the McCann one, or part of it, certainly could be too.

Re your paragraph 2 about the syringe, sure there are lots of possible explanations, including that people including LE have motive to frame them, so I'm not saying very much about that.

Re scrutinizing the picture, I'm talking about Maddie's picture, not any suspect's, which was from a video, and they recently showed the next frame where Maddie was biting her lower lip and looking very insecure, shocked. Notice media people, not just myself, felt this was important and revealing enough that the public needed to see. I wasn't referring to scrutinizing anyone else's picture to find anyone guilty. Never said anything remotely like that!

Re her being a daddy's girl, yes, and that's another thing that I'm becoming more and more suspicious just may have aggravated Kate. I looked well at everything anyone presented in her defense, didn't at first think of her as guilty of corruption or anything, since I don't know her. I always defended the Ramseys, except about their carelessness. And some felt that since Patsy Ramsey was sick a lot, she may have resented JonBenet's relationship with her father, who actually wasn't home much. I didn't take that seriously. Kate being a doctor, may be pretty different from Patsy and most of us, for all we know.

If we find out something about an amount of money, I'll probably be thoroughly convinced the black market thing is what happened. Best theory I've heard yet.

People in that kind of business could make it look like Maddie's dead, or, I have to admit they really may have killed her, when maybe that wasn't the deal if they made a deal with Kate. Most of us wouldn't dream of being tempted by such a thing. I just have a gut feeling she took their picture in case she'd need to track them down later. Unbelieveable, but we hear stranger things in these cases. Might she be more scientific than loving? We can't judge yet. Meanwhile, I'm keeping an open mind of course, and people have commented that I always seem to be "fair" minded. Can you do the same? Welcome to the board if you're new, btw.

[elvislives]

I haven't heard that as yet either (Murat).

This is a wonderful object lesson for all of us who are following old cases like the Ramsey case, to see how the press work and how people's views can be influenced by it.
On another note, I believe the police are anxious to name a suspect in this case not only because of the effect not solving this murder would have on the tourist trade, but because that is what they do. And, especially when it becomes known that they have made serious errors in the early days of an investigation, they are eager to solve any case to make themselves look competent. Another parallel to the JBR case, IMO.

Excellent point, Linda. I have always been hightly critical of the Ramseys for their lack of cooperation in the investigation but if the McCanns decided to stonewall the PJ from here on out (which so far they haven't done), one could hardly blame them.

[elvislives]

[QUOTE=elvislives;8984625]

Elvis, I am not surprised at how events have turned here. It was the same with the Azeria Chamberlain dingo case, they even found blood in the Chamberlain`s car too that could only have been the babies...except that it turned out to be jam or something. And as we know the mother was sent to prison totally innocent. And yes, it was trial by media, trial by how much people liked the mother, trial by what she wore even!!! Everything but trial by facts.
And the R. case is also the same. I find it horrifying to see this pan out in front of my eyes in this day and age. And when I hear people with such `logic` deem well yes, the mother could have done it....its statistically likely....stranger things have happened etc.....well, I just shake my head in saddnes.

No doubt the parents, innocent as they are will now loose their house, future, all their money as well to stay out of jail. And no doubt for the next 10 plus years their will be gossip mongrols quoting every word reported, every facial movement acted and every action by the parents. They will be deamonised just as the R. have by many. It will be interesting, and I hope I am wrong and the real perp. gets caught, hopefully with Madelaine alive.

Plenty of evidence of ridiculous baseless speculation right here in these threads. People thinking Maddie was abused because she looked sad or bit her lip in a picture. Others suspecting the parents because they got a PR campaign organized so quickly when they should have been paralyzed with grief. Others saying that Kate probably didnt really care about her kids since she was a working mom.

Its incredible to me that people can be so obtuse.

[LindaA]

Good to see you, Elvis. We miss you on the JBR thread. In your last posts here you drew more parallels to the JBR case: The mom didn't care about her children, people don't like the way the moms dress, the PR campaign. I believe the McCanns have been advised to stonewall LE, so we'll see what they do. Cooperating with them certainly didn't get them anywhere.

I think we need to watch this case to see how LE leaks info, right or wrong; how the parents behave and how that relates to their guilt or iinnocence ultimately, and how the press report details, accurate or not and how thatcolors public opinion, how erros by LE shapes the investigation going forward.

[Kitty B]

I really have to ask this.....is it possible that her parents killed her and hid her body, just to throw it in the ocean like yesterday´s trash?

I guess parents that sedate their children on vacation (it is the kid´s vacation too) are capable of anything....but murder?

I have serious problems with most of this story, from the fact that there were 2 2 year olds and a (then) 3 year old alone sleeping in an apartment in Portugal. I live in Norway and we have traveled to both Portugal, Greece, and Spain and never once have we left our 4 children alone. hmmm...

And the sedation. What in the he.. could possibly drive a doctor to do something like that? Hyperactive kids? We all have them at some point or another, I will write how my 8 year old son put it when he heard that on the radio..."kids fall asleep eventually, we don´t need pills for that!" I rest my case on that one.

And the parents. Hmmm....I have a 14 year old, a 12 year old, an 8 year old, and a 3 year old. If any one of those children were taken from me, I would end up in a mental institution, unable to care for myself much less the rest of my family. I would fall APART! I do not think I could function as well as the McCann´s.....

I´m not saying they did it, but I think some infraction of common sense was invoked here. It just doesn´t add up........

[Portabella]

Eagle, firstly thank you for the "Welcome" and yes I am fairly new as is obvious by my post count...

I was not trying to cut down our thoughts, only trying to understand and utilize it to incorporate it into a thought pattern and see if I thought it was feasible. I believe it is, just not at the hands of the Mom. I have children and will not go into the ages as I am rather protective, but I can relate to Kate's diary, I understand how it is with a hyper child and if I kept a journal I may have released more and worse feelings than Kate. Am I a bad mother, absolutely not, would I harm my child, Heck no.....If you could read my thoughts during hyperactivity or worse yet when they were collicy as infants would I have horrible thoughts .....Yes. And I might add, I don't even spank, and I mean ever.

That was the only comment actually that had anything to do with your post, I agree with the fact it could be for the black market, but....I cannot see a parent teaching a child a lesson and expecting to retrieve her later. Could it happen, probably, nothing is impossible. I was just looking at the "Probability" of it. However I admire that you think "outside the box" which is probably what would make you an excellent sleuth.

Now, I was not stating that the only things that police should look at is if Baldie and Murat knew each other. But....it is a start to show probable cause as well as if one had rented an apartment in the resort. The hypodermic I was just looking at how and why it could have been there. I can say that I have never opened a first aid kit to find one in it. I have found the ones with no needle for irrigating and/or med dispensing to a child, but never one with a needle ie syringe. In my occupation I have never seen one even in the most extensive of kits, but if you live in another country maybe they are different there. I can accept that as cultural differences have major changes in just about everything. I still believe that these two gentlemen should be investigated, and I still wonder why someone would be at the playground if they did not have a child there. JMOO. And I am not one to Judge usually by how someone dresses, but he does look oddly out of place in that photo.

I also would like to have hope for that beautiful little angel, just sadly I don't and I am entitled to my opinion as much as the next guy. I hope I am proven wrong and they bring her home. However if they found body fluids in the boot that were not blood, (Hair is not a body fluid) I would guess she was decomposing. Should they give up the hunt, Absolutely not.....Not til they bring her home one way or another. God Bless....:rose: :rose: :rose:

[One2Snoop]

With all due respect, when I posted that bit about the black market I wasn't even thinking about the parents having any involvement. IMO, I would find this highly unlikely on their part. The black market thing has been in the back of mind for awhile. I think Tuscan Dreams brought it up too.
I believe this bald guy in the pic and Murat need to be looked at a bit closer. IMO, JMO.

[dallasvic]

With all due respect, when I posted that bit about the black market I wasn't even thinking about the parents having any involvement. IMO, I would find this highly unlikely on their part. The black market thing has been in the back of mind for awhile. I think Tuscan Dreams brought it up too.
I believe this bald guy in the pic and Murat need to be looked at a bit closer. IMO, JMO.

Hi O2S,

I understood what you met about the black market thing,I do agree they need to look into those 2 guy and soon before the flee the country.:seeya:

[TuscanDreams]

With all due respect, when I posted that bit about the black market I wasn't even thinking about the parents having any involvement. IMO, I would find this highly unlikely on their part. The black market thing has been in the back of mind for awhile. I think Tuscan Dreams brought it up too.
I believe this bald guy in the pic and Murat need to be looked at a bit closer. IMO, JMO.

Yep, I brought it up. Human trafficking is a huge market. Donald Sutherland said it best, "A drug can only be sold once. A woman or a child can be sold over and over again."

And, Snoop, I agree. I don't see the parents selling Maddie. I think she was kidnapped and is far away from Portugal by now.

I think Maddie alive. The reason I think this is that she is too young to "tell" on her kidnappers. Most children are killed so they won't talk, take the Lunsford Angel. When Couey killed her, he did it to cover his tracks as his victim was old enough to tell all. Maddie isn't old enough to do that and I think she's alive.

[Eagle1]

That was the only comment actually that had anything to do with your post, I agree with the fact it could be for the black market, but....I cannot see a parent teaching a child a lesson and expecting to retrieve her later. Could it happen, probably, nothing is impossible. I was just looking at the "Probability" of it. However I admire that you think "outside the box" which is probably what would make you an excellent sleuth.

Now, I was not stating that the only things that police should look at is if Baldie and Murat knew each other. But....it is a start to show probable cause as well as if one had rented an apartment in the resort. The hypodermic I was just looking at how and why it could have been there. I can say that I have never opened a first aid kit to find one in it. I have found the ones with no needle for irrigating and/or med dispensing to a child, but never one with a needle ie syringe. In my occupation I have never seen one even in the most extensive of kits, but if you live in another country maybe they are different there. I can accept that as cultural differences have major changes in just about everything. I still believe that these two gentlemen should be investigated, and I still wonder why someone would be at the playground if they did not have a child there. JMOO. And I am not one to Judge usually by how someone dresses, but he does look oddly out of place in that photo.
God Bless....:rose: :rose: :rose:

Thanks Portobello, and I hope you don't mind that I'm just quoting selections again, as sort of a shortcut because others will probably post everything.

I too have children and grandchildren, and possibly Kate was just nervous about the two guys, who I grant you do look rather out of place and like criminals and took a picture, is afraid to direct any further attention to them for fear they'll kill Maddie,
instead of her possibly making a money deal w/out Gerry's knowledge. The big guy must have known he'd look suspicious and stepped back, seems to have white hair. "Baldy" doesnit seem to have the sense to care, does he?

We're all just beating the bushes, saying whatever we can think of in case it gives someone else an even better idea. I don't want to waste our time criticizing LE and everyone because all of us already know all that stuff from the Ramsey case.

I too am considering that hyperdermic needles may be more common in Europe than they are here. There are new premeasured insulin kits , tried Novolog, that include pkgs of needles, and doctors would probably have them in their little black bags.

My many, many random thoughts are never posted as concrete theories, just beating the bushes, sidn't say definitely that I think Kate might sell Maddie if the price were big enough or to teach her a lesson, just wondered if something like that could have been part of a terrible scolding. I found some of the Maddie pictures, fairly large, http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/13/missing.mccann/ and the biting the lip one right under it. Hope the link still works.

No one thing by itself would get me suspicious of Kate, but putting a lot of things together, including what happened to that boy Ned and others in Europe, and news media never reporting these things much, for SOME reason, maybe fear of getting sued, they can begin to add up. It's been quite a long time now.

[Eagle1]

Yes, she probably was boldly kidnapped by two guys who came to the park looking for some prey, and Maddie was making a lot of noise, and they should investigate them before they flee. But I'm still keeping an open mind , because of the strange- to- me way Maddie looked in the pictures at that link, didn't take time to check it, hope it works.

Seems like a contradiction that she was "hyperactive" according to Kate, but so SERIOUS. Kate also claimed she dutifully expressed that she was having a good time. I don't think our bunch would have done that. If I didn't teach them good enough manners, We just wanted them to have fun and good lifelong memories. Weren't thinking of ourselves.

[Sharon]

[QUOTE=Sharon;8986604]

Plenty of evidence of ridiculous baseless speculation right here in these threads. People thinking Maddie was abused because she looked sad or bit her lip in a picture. Others suspecting the parents because they got a PR campaign organized so quickly when they should have been paralyzed with grief. Others saying that Kate probably didnt really care about her kids since she was a working mom.

Its incredible to me that people can be so obtuse.

I know, I am dumbfounded as I read!!!! All I can say is that this will become a `hobby` for many now. Its like seeing how the R. case developed from being an unsolved crime to an explosion of bizare theories about the parents.

I can see here that it is being hinted at that the mother was jelous of Maddie being Daddy`s girl. I would imagine that with 3 kids, as a mother you would be happy if `all` your kids were Daddy`s girls!!!! I mean, things are so busy with kids!!!! Also, we are seeing societies true backlash against mothers who have a career, in the sciences no less......so of course she must be cold!!!! Yes, its getting a little too crazy for my tastes. And I really hope that there are normal people out there who dont let this become the new entertainment of the week, as this will certainly halt the progress of solving this crime. ie the innuendo and myths will become bigger than the facts meaning there will be no real going forward with solving this. I hope this doesnt happen as it did with the R. case, where it was all about agendas and saving face for the authorities, never about the case.

[Results]

Yep, I brought it up. Human trafficking is a huge market. Donald Sutherland said it best, "A drug can only be sold once. A woman or a child can be sold over and over again."

And, Snoop, I agree. I don't see the parents selling Maddie. I think she was kidnapped and is far away from Portugal by now.

I think Maddie alive. The reason I think this is that she is too young to "tell" on her kidnappers. Most children are killed so they won't talk, take the Lunsford Angel. When Couey killed her, he did it to cover his tracks as his victim was old enough to tell all. Maddie isn't old enough to do that and I think she's alive.

Hey TD! I hope your right but I have to ask you with Maddy as a hot topic and the world watching won't it be a big risk to keep her alive it can lead to her abductors if she is alive and kidnapped? It is so sad any way you look at it and I just pray that she will be found either way.

Just wanted to add I will never believe her parents sold her on the black market either but I'm not marking them off my POI. I usually have a feeling one way or another with a case but this one I just don't know.

JMHO

[dallasvic]

:seeya: Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to put my 2 cents in. I really want to think that Little Maddie is alive.
There is a story of a boy that was kidnapped when he was little and he became a teen. His was with his kidnapper for years. They moved alot and he had to change his hair color and the man grilled him on what to say if he was asked certain questions.
he was told his parents did not want him anymore I believe that is right. I will have to look that one up.
Maddie was just 3 when she was taken so she would be at a age that she would believe what ever she was told.IMO!!!
If it was those guys in the park they could have priors for sex offenses. They should be in the database of sex offenders and it would have pic's of they.
This witness that seen the man carrying a child in a blanket could be hypnotized so she could give a better description of the man. This has worked in many cases and i think it would be worth a try since they have pic;s of 2 men roaming the park looking at children.
They need to get their focus off the parents and start looking for Maddie before it is to late
http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com/middle/images/index_03.jpg:rose: The Real Victim Is Maddie:rose:




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[Eagle1]

[QUOTE=dallasvic;8989310]:seeya: Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to put my 2 cents in. I really want to think that Little Maddie is alive............................................. ..

If it was those guys in the park they could have priors for sex offenses. They should be in the database of sex offenders and it would have pic's of them.

This witness that seen the man carrying a child in a blanket could be hypnotized so she could give a better description of the man. This has worked in many cases and i think it would be worth a try since they have pic;s of 2 men roaming the park looking at children. .........................

BIG AMEN
Those two guys are probably in databases. Have LE even looked???

Not that criticizing LE or ridiculing fellow posters (against the basic rules of the forum) instead of contributing any ideas like yours accomplishes anything but wasting our time. More power to you. Your above paragraph may even need repeating until somebody gets it, imo.

[TuscanDreams]

Hey TD! I hope your right but I have to ask you with Maddy as a hot topic and the world watching won't it be a big risk to keep her alive it can lead to her abductors if she is alive and kidnapped? It is so sad any way you look at it and I just pray that she will be found either way.

Just wanted to add I will never believe her parents sold her on the black market either but I'm not marking them off my POI. I usually have a feeling one way or another with a case but this one I just don't know.

JMHO

Great points, Results, the world is watching for Maddie. I think my post was my reflection of hope, yet the reality is that if she is dead, she was killed within hours of her abduction.

There are a lot of places that trafficking victims are hidden, in countries that have access to television but their culture isn't as media prone as North America. I personally think that she's probably in Spain.

Sadly, I think this case will end like Natalee Hollaways, with no resolution. :rose:

[Eagle1]

Okay, this morning after sleeping on it I can agree with the apparent majority of you that probably the parents didn't sell Maddie on that black market, since it fits just as well with me that Kate just noticed the two guys looking very out of place and suspicious, and took that snapshot.

Which must have been given to LE and the media.

Anyone know if they're in custody being questionned or if they've already skipped town and disappeared? One apparently knew to step back into the shadow of a tree but the bald one oddly didn't seem to worry about having his picture taken looking at a family with a little girl. That's kind of odd, isn't it? I wouldn't want my picture taken by any stranger under any circumstances. He apparently didn't think he'd look suspicious, or wanted attention (?)

Don't anyone take me too seriously, as I've warned I change my "opinion of the moment" from time to time depending on what's developing. My dad used to say I'd always have a clean mind.

[Sharon]

This investigation and media coverage is beginning to remind me of the Lindy and Michael Chamberlain disappearance of their baby daughter Azaria in Australia!

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/chamberlain/chamberlainaccount.html

You are right on the money with that comment! In a current magazine Lindy has written a public letter begging the public not to do with these parents what it did with her. The similarities are NOT lost on her. She is devestated to see history repeating itself!!!!

[elvislives]

I agree dallasvic - the latest I've heard is, the news media has decided to bring Murat back into the picture who is supposedly connected to some bald guy in a photo that Kate McCann took at the park while Gerry was playing with Madeleine, and the twins. The picture was beautiful and reflected nothing more than a happy family outing. Please make note, "This was just hours before Maddie went missing"!!!!!

snipped from the article...

The broad, bald man appeared in a photo taken by Mrs McCann as Madeleine played with her father Gerry and two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie shortly before her disappearance.

http://www.news.com.au/mercury/story/0,22884,22424729-921,00.html

I wonder why they want to reinvestigate Murat. Just last week the Portuguese authorities cllaimed to have DAMNING and CONCLUSIVE evidence that the McCann's killed their daughter! Why bother investigating anyone else when they've already solved the crime??? :rolleyes:

[elvislives]

You are right on the money with that comment! In a current magazine Lindy has written a public letter begging the public not to do with these parents what it did with her. The similarities are NOT lost on her. She is devestated to see history repeating itself!!!!

I find it very unsettling that we as a world community appear to have learned very little since the 17th century Salem witch trials.

I believe that every democratic country on earth has a constitution with language to the effect of "innocent until proven guilty" and for very good reasons. Innocent people have been wrongly accused and convicted of crimes and the laws are designed to prevent this as much as possible. But many here seem to want to lynch the McCann's based on false media reports, innuendo, and cultural differences.

I am not a religious person, but I believe it was Christ who said "Let he who has never sinned (or even made an error in judgement in this case) cast the first stone". JMO

[Jayelles]

I find it very unsettling that we as a world community appear to have learned very little since the 17th century Salem witch trials.

I believe that every democratic country on earth has a constitution with language to the effect of "innocent until proven guilty" and for very good reasons. Innocent people have been wrongly accused and convicted of crimes and the laws are designed to prevent this as much as possible. But many here seem to want to lynch the McCann's based on false media reports, innuendo, and cultural differences.

I am not a religious person, but I believe it was Christ who said "Let he who has never sinned (or even made an error in judgement in this case) cast the first stone". JMO

Hear! Hear!

I got a chance to read a couple of newspapers on the train today and got the distinct impression that the media are backpeddling after the latest developments (Judge saying no to recalling them and DNA not being a match after all). The stories were definitely much more sympathetic.

Their new PR guy is some kind of senior civil servant and he resigned from his post to take the job with the McCanns. It said in the Daily Mail that he is going to be looking at "black propaganda" - i.e. to see if the Portuguese police have deliberated leaked negative stories about the McCanns to sway public opinion against them.

The media is so fluffybunnies fickle. These people are in a position of power with regards to their ability to sway public opinion and they behave so fluffybunnies irresponsibly.

[Eagle1]

Haven't most of us learned from long experience with the Ramsey case and other similar ones not to be swayed by "tactics"? They don't influence me at all. Even when they said there were evidently "accomplices", which impression I was already getting anyway. They may not have been bluffing about that.

I'm judging strictly by what I see, Kate's family snapshot suggesting maybe that these two strange guys must have followed the McCann's back to their lodging, and maybe watched a while so they could know the parents went back out. Only something tells me they may have already known the McCanns' schedule somehow. Could they just assume because they saw no babysitter arrive that one hadn't been waiting there?

But if something new comes up of course I reserve the right to change my mind, or just change it anyway. At least some of us are trying to present some ideas rather than ridiculing other posters. Which would be a flagrant violation of the rules.

[TuscanDreams]

I find it very unsettling that we as a world community appear to have learned very little since the 17th century Salem witch trials.

I believe that every democratic country on earth has a constitution with language to the effect of "innocent until proven guilty" and for very good reasons. Innocent people have been wrongly accused and convicted of crimes and the laws are designed to prevent this as much as possible. But many here seem to want to lynch the McCann's based on false media reports, innuendo, and cultural differences.

I am not a religious person, but I believe it was Christ who said "Let he who has never sinned (or even made an error in judgement in this case) cast the first stone". JMO

:beer: I am a Christian (just not a good one) and you are spot on. I think of how many mistakes I made with my kids when they were young and if I wrote what I thought in a diary on some days~ I'd be in prison. It is darn hard to be the parent of young children and how many people could actually throw a stone at the McCann's?

[dallasvic]

:beer: I am a Christian (just not a good one) and you are spot on. I think of how many mistakes I made with my kids when they were young and if I wrote what I thought in a diary on some days~ I'd be in prison. It is darn hard to be the parent of young children and how many people could actually throw a stone at the McCann's?


Hi TD,

I agree. I have said in other post of mine that the McCann's were only guilty of making a MISTAKE that they we will have to live with the rest of their life's. We are not perfect and we all make mistakes.
:rose: For Maddie & Her Family:rose:

[Eagle1]

A little Swiss girl, 5 and 1/2 yrs old, who's the same body type, resembles Maddie,
was abducted recently, is still missing, tho' her captor committed suicide after shooting an older man who was evidently threatening to become a whistle blower. He is in a hospital in critical condition, police unable to question him.

The suspect's last name is two words. Maybe we have seen a picture of him. It looked rather familiar.

Some of the Swiss girl Ylena's belongings were found in a knapsack if I remember correctly, and her DNA in the suicide's white van.

Some say he may have been in the McCann's area on May 3. Nothing more can be found out about it unless the witness recovers enough to talk. I hope they have him under guard in his hospital room in case someone else should also try to shoot him. Also I learned the "friends" were all doctors. Naturally I like my own, but all of us have heard how they stick together against lawsuits for malpractice and like that.

Two of them claim the one named Jane was mistaken, but they were deeply involved in a conversation and may just not have noticed her walking past them on a rather narrow path, and a man with a child in pink pj's. I think the parents claim Maddie was wearing a pink pj top but the pants were white with a small print. Maybe Jane only saw the top or the print was pink. There's a picture of Plain Jane, looks like the type guys might bully, http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/1609-maddie,shtml

Someone there said there already are laws in America against leaving young children alone, as there obviously should be everywhere these days, we have so many pedophiles worldwide, and parents would be arrested for reckless endangerment, etc., and this "Black Market" for kids.

[sharlock]

Finding Madeleine's DNA three weeks after they leased this car doesn't make sense. If they had killed Madeleine and transported her body wouldn't the blood have been dried on her and whatever she was wearing? :confused:
Athena the reports coming out in Australia have said that the dna found in the car was not from blood but from fluids taht culd have only come from a decomposing body along with a large amount of Maddies hair. They said the fluid could be proven to have come from Maddy but it would be more difficult to prove that the fluid had not been transferred to the car from something of Maddies rather than the body itself.

[One2Snoop]

I still think there's too many coflicting reports coming out to determine anything. If you read on page 13 in the updates thread there are articles claiming the hair wasn't found in the boot of the car as previously claimed and they also don't have any roots to determine if the hair is Maddies.

This is all kinda driving me crazy. :confused:

Posted by Athena...

Interpretation of Hair evidence is flawed

Experts confided it was impossible to match the samples to vanished Maddie as the hair roots were missing. Sources also revealed hair strands were found in the rear seats of the hired Renault Scenic — not the boot as leaked by cops.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2007430135,00.html

[dallasvic]

I still think there's too many coflicting reports coming out to determine anything. If you read on page 13 in the updates thread there are articles claiming the hair wasn't found in the boot of the car as previously claimed and they also don't have any roots to determine if the hair is Maddies.

This is all kinda driving me crazy. :confused:

Posted by Athena...

Interpretation of Hair evidence is flawed

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2007430135,00.html

O2S,
I agree.It's like you have to read between the lines like putting together one of those 5000 piece puzzles and trying to find that on certain piece.:confused:
A priest was interviewed and he said this was absurd that they did not have anything to do with little missing Maddie.The lawyer of the parent said the DNA was not blood , but could have come from Maddie sweaty thongs , clothes they had thrown in the boot when they moved.
:rose: For Maddie & Family:rose:
Please join me to light a candle for them:rose:



http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/...l=eng&gi=maddy




http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_03/maddyPA0605_468x599.jpg Missing: Madeleine disappeared from the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on May 3

[docwho3]

I am pretty sure that eagle1 mentioned this case connection before but this link was posted elsewhere and I thought it interesting and so I share this bit:

Here is another strange twilightzone twist to this case:
". . . The body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland. . ."

". . . It was uncovered by a passer-by between Oberbren and Niederwil on Saturday. It had apparently been dug up by wild animals. Von Aesch is thought to have shot a man who challenged him shortly after he buried the body, then turned the gun on himself. Police later discovered he had been on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared in May. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Note: I added the bolding in the quote.

[dallasvic]

I am pretty sure that eagle1 mentioned this case connection before but this link was posted elsewhere and I thought it interesting and so I share this bit:

Here is another strange twilightzone twist to this case:
". . . The body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland. . ."

". . . It was uncovered by a passer-by between Oberbren and Niederwil on Saturday. It had apparently been dug up by wild animals. Von Aesch is thought to have shot a man who challenged him shortly after he buried the body, then turned the gun on himself. Police later discovered he had been on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared in May. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Note: I added the bolding in the quote.

This is very interesting.Good points

[Eagle1]

I am pretty sure that eagle1 mentioned this case connection before but this link was posted elsewhere and I thought it interesting and so I share this bit:

Here is another strange twilightzone twist to this case:
". . . The body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland. . ."

". . . It was uncovered by a passer-by between Oberbren and Niederwil on Saturday. It had apparently been dug up by wild animals. Von Aesch is thought to have shot a man who challenged him shortly after he buried the body, then turned the gun on himself.

Police later discovered he had been on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared in May. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Note: I added the bolding in the quote.

Bingo! There we go. DocWho found the guy's name and everything. My printouts were so microscopic I couldn't even find them to post links.

Everyone please note especially part [b], that Von Aesch was on holiday in the Algarve in May when Madeleine disappeared.

We don't yet know exactly how this was discovered. And if Von Aesch had any connection to the two guys in Kate's family snapshot in the little playground. Hopefully there will be a followup article explaining some of those details.

[Jayelles]

I thought that many of you might be unfamiliar with the British newspapers which are being quoted here and might appreciate a description!

"Serious" newspapers -
The Times
The Scotsman
The Independent
The Guardian

Middle Newspapers
The Mail
The Express
Daily Record

Down Market Tabloids
The Star
The Sport
News of the World
The Mirror

OddBods
The Sun

The Sun is an oddbod because "technically" it is a tabloid or red-top as they are often called. However, although it is full of pictures of topless models and tends to put a sleazy slant on a lot of its articles, it tends not to be dismissed outright because so many of it's sensational stories turn out to be right! It's the best selling newspaper so I guess Rupert Murdoch can afford to pay for exclusive stories.

[elvislives]

I still think there's too many coflicting reports coming out to determine anything. If you read on page 13 in the updates thread there are articles claiming the hair wasn't found in the boot of the car as previously claimed and they also don't have any roots to determine if the hair is Maddies.

This is all kinda driving me crazy. :confused:

Posted by Athena...

Interpretation of Hair evidence is flawed

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2007430135,00.html

AndU asked about whether a dead body would shed a lot of hair a while back and after typing up an answer I deleted it for fear it would offend some people. So if you're squeamish please skip to the next post NOW.

I will try and put this as delicately as possible since we are talking about a 4 year old child: A dead body WILL shed a lot of hair when it is in a state of advanced decomposition. When a body is in advanced decomp the tissues will begin to "liquify", the skin will literally fall off the corpse if disturbed. Hair will fall out in clumps and will contain not only the root but the surrounding tissue. If hair was found WITHOUT a root, then it was likely shed naturally during the telogen phase. Also during advanced decomp, the odor is indescribably horrendous. If the McCanns had a body in their car that was in advanced decomposition, it would not go unnoticed. Anyone who walked anywhere near the car would be alarmed at the putrid stench. And they apparently were shuttling friends and family back and forth to the airport in this vehicle. The theory that they transported her body in that car 25 days after they killed her is totally ridiculous. I could get even more graphic, but I think I'll stop here.

And O2S, you are absolutely right about all the conflicting reports. I've never seen such irresponsible journalism in my life. What a disgrace!

[elvislives]

Kate facing 'rap' over Bible

THE SUN - September 19, 2007

KATE McCann could face two years in jail simply for revealing cops checked her bible for clues, it emerged last night.

Portuguese lawyers say she broke strict “secret justice” laws banning any discussion of evidence — and could now be prosecuted regardless of any other charges.


This is an excerpt from one of Odettes updates posted today. I have to wonder if the police will lock themselves up in the cell right next to Kate for ALL OF THEIR LEAKS. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

If this case weren't so tragic, it could be a Saturday Night Live skit...

[andU]

AndU asked about whether a dead body would shed a lot of hair a while back and after typing up an answer I deleted it for fear it would offend some people. So if you're squeamish please skip to the next post NOW.

I will try and put this as delicately as possible since we are talking about a 4 year old child: A dead body WILL shed a lot of hair when it is in a state of advanced decomposition. When a body is in advanced decomp the tissues will begin to "liquify", the skin will literally fall off the corpse if disturbed. Hair will fall out in clumps and will contain not only the root but the surrounding tissue. If hair was found WITHOUT a root, then it was likely shed naturally during the telogen phase. Also during advanced decomp, the odor is indescribably horrendous. If the McCanns had a body in their car that was in advanced decomposition, it would not go unnoticed. Anyone who walked anywhere near the car would be alarmed at the putrid stench. And they apparently were shuttling friends and family back and forth to the airport in this vehicle. The theory that they transported her body in that car 25 days after they killed her is totally ridiculous. I could get even more graphic, but I think I'll stop here.

And O2S, you are absolutely right about all the conflicting reports. I've never seen such irresponsible journalism in my life. What a disgrace!

Thank you! I believe you stated your point very well and professionally. I so appreciate your input.

[andU]

Kate facing 'rap' over Bible

THE SUN - September 19, 2007

KATE McCann could face two years in jail simply for revealing cops checked her bible for clues, it emerged last night.

Portuguese lawyers say she broke strict “secret justice” laws banning any discussion of evidence — and could now be prosecuted regardless of any other charges.


This is an excerpt from one of Odettes updates posted today. I have to wonder if the police will lock themselves up in the cell right next to Kate for ALL OF THEIR LEAKS. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

If this case weren't so tragic, it could be a Saturday Night Live skit...

Reckon why they want to call such negative attention to themselves and their country? It sure won't help their tourism, IMO.

[Portabella]

That is a big, steaming load of Horse Pucky......It is making the Portuguese police look more crooked and sinister all the time. It really makes it look like they are out to destroy Kate. My Lord, so they cannot get a solid case on them so they will lock her up for the diary. I bet they are going to try and use that to weaken her in a cell so that they can get a confession out of her. They are getting dirtier, I at first looked at the McCann's negatively for fleeing and returning to Britain, I don't know if someone was advising them, but that was a smart move. People are now playing dirty and they don't even know if they are guilty, real third world police mentality. I hope somehow this is not allowed to happen, if they are innocent what a freaking tragedy to revictimize and revictimize them over and over. I am getting pissed.

Also, Elvis, you are absolutely correct, I don't know if anyone has ever smelled a pool of body fluid after a decomposing corpse had even done a "puddle" transfer to it. It is horrible.....I guarantee people would have been questioning and flies would have been all over that trunk, there is no containing that smell.....

[Louisadelmar]

AndU asked about whether a dead body would shed a lot of hair a while back and after typing up an answer I deleted it for fear it would offend some people. So if you're squeamish please skip to the next post NOW.

I will try and put this as delicately as possible since we are talking about a 4 year old child: A dead body WILL shed a lot of hair when it is in a state of advanced decomposition. When a body is in advanced decomp the tissues will begin to "liquify", the skin will literally fall off the corpse if disturbed. Hair will fall out in clumps and will contain not only the root but the surrounding tissue. If hair was found WITHOUT a root, then it was likely shed naturally during the telogen phase. Also during advanced decomp, the odor is indescribably horrendous. If the McCanns had a body in their car that was in advanced decomposition, it would not go unnoticed. Anyone who walked anywhere near the car would be alarmed at the putrid stench. And they apparently were shuttling friends and family back and forth to the airport in this vehicle. The theory that they transported her body in that car 25 days after they killed her is totally ridiculous. I could get even more graphic, but I think I'll stop here.

And O2S, you are absolutely right about all the conflicting reports. I've never seen such irresponsible journalism in my life. What a disgrace!

And that smell doesn't go away quickly either.

PS. It always amuses me that some people come here because an interest in crime, specifically murder and forensics, is their 'hobby.' But then when the reality of decomposing bodies etc is presented they get all "Oh, that's yucky, I don't want to hear/see anything like that."

[andU]

And that smell doesn't go away quickly either.

PS. It always amuses me that some people come here because an interest in crime, specifically murder and forensics, is their 'hobby.' But then when the reality of decomposing bodies etc is presented they get all "Oh, that's yucky, I don't want to hear/see anything like that."


You are right, Louisa... it is not a pleasant thing, but someone has to do it. I can only relate the smell to that of a family member back in the 60s who was in late stage of terminal cancer. A person never forgets that smell, ever. But, do you stop loving the person? Do you stop visiting? You forge on and pray for the fortitude to keep going.

[Eagle1]

With all due respect, when I posted that bit about the black market I wasn't even thinking about the parents having any involvement. IMO, I would find this highly unlikely on their part. The black market thing has been in the back of mind for awhile. I think Tuscan Dreams brought it up too.

I believe this bald guy in the pic and Murat need to be looked at a bit closer. IMO, JMO.

Haven't there been several tips about a slim man with dark hair lately, which just might be Murat, although nothing is ever said about baldness in front? Why did he just stand there when Kate was about to take his picture? Could he have been on drugs? The dark-haired guy, partly bald, is Murat, correct???

There's also this third guy, who killed the little Swiss girl and himself, severely wounded a witness who was going to tell on him, who's so critical right now police can't question him to see if he knows where Maddie is, or her body. Maybe in that same forest? We're not told yet, as far as I know, how they know Van Aesch was in the area when Maddie disappeared. If they know that much they should also know about some of his other whereabouts.

The other day I finally saw a picture of Kate in genuine-looking grief, and
another thing, if there had been any McCann fingerprints on the hyperdermic syringe, would LE have leaked that ? BYW, DocWho, do you remember where you heard about the hyperdermic? TIA.

Thanks, Jayelles, for the explanation that people carry them in Europe. They don't in America, unless they're diabetics. And for the explanation about your newspapers. What about "Mercury"?

Now if that hospitalized man who was shot by Von Aesch can just recover we might find out something. If Maddie's in that forrest, animals will uncover her body like the little Swiss girl's? Von Aesch's white van was also found in the forrest. Was he a longer who would not have been connected in any way to Murat?

[One2Snoop]

And that smell doesn't go away quickly either.

PS. It always amuses me that some people come here because an interest in crime, specifically murder and forensics, is their 'hobby.' But then when the reality of decomposing bodies etc is presented they get all "Oh, that's yucky, I don't want to hear/see anything like that."

Did someone say that regarding this case? I must of missed it. :confused: :shrug:

[One2Snoop]

Haven't there been several tips about a slim man with dark hair lately, which just might be Murat, although nothing is ever said about baldness in front? Why did he just stand there when Kate was about to take his picture? Could he have been on drugs? The dark-haired guy, partly bald, is Murat, correct???

There's also this third guy, who killed the little Swiss girl and himself, severely wounded a witness who was going to tell on him, who's so critical right now police can't question him to see if he knows where Maddie is, or her body. Maybe in that same forest? We're not told yet, as far as I know, how they know Van Aesch was in the area when Maddie disappeared. If they know that much they should also know about some of his other whereabouts.

The other day I finally saw a picture of Kate in genuine-looking grief, and
another thing, if there had been any McCann fingerprints on the hyperdermic syringe, would LE have leaked that ? BYW, DocWho, do you remember where you heard about the hyperdermic? TIA.

Thanks, Jayelles, for the explanation that people carry them in Europe. They don't in America, unless they're diabetics. And for the explanation about your newspapers. What about "Mercury"?

Now if that hospitalized man who was shot by Von Aesch can just recover we might find out something. If Maddie's in that forrest, animals will uncover her body like the little Swiss girl's? Von Aesch's white van was also found in the forrest. Was he a longer who would not have been connected in any way to Murat?

I hope they pursue this route with the swiss guy just as agressively as they've done with the McCann's.

There is an article IIRC from early on that talks about the hyperdermic needle. I'll see if I can find it for you.

[Eagle1]

I hope they pursue this route with the swiss guy just as agressively as they've done with the McCann's.

There is an article IIRC from early on that talks about the hyperdermic needle. I'll see if I can find it for you.

I'm sure a lot of us will be interested in any details about that. Bring it on. We're not wimps, are we? TIA

[One2Snoop]

Here you go Eagle - article about the needle. Now where does this paper rank on Jayelles list?

http://www2.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/17693/-Syringe-found-in-Madeleine-s-apartment-

'SYRINGE FOUND IN MADELEINE'S APARTMENT'

Thursday August 30,2007

[Eagle1]

Here you go Eagle - article about the needle. Now where does this paper rank on Jayelles list?

http://www2.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/17693/-Syringe-found-in-Madeleine-s-apartment-

'SYRINGE FOUND IN MADELEINE'S APARTMENT'

Thursday August 30,2007

Thanks, One. If Jay forgot one I'm sure she'll put it in. I don't see any mention of fingerprints but I think if there were any they would have mentioned it. Hm.....

I forgot to jot down the source where I just read that the shot guy has been discharged from the hospital, isn't a witness after all. Doesn't seem that long ago, just a few days, they were saying he wasn't well enough to even be questionned. Was shot with a different gun. Another dead end.

[TuscanDreams]

Kate facing 'rap' over Bible

THE SUN - September 19, 2007

KATE McCann could face two years in jail simply for revealing cops checked her bible for clues, it emerged last night.

Portuguese lawyers say she broke strict “secret justice” laws banning any discussion of evidence — and could now be prosecuted regardless of any other charges.


This is an excerpt from one of Odettes updates posted today. I have to wonder if the police will lock themselves up in the cell right next to Kate for ALL OF THEIR LEAKS. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

If this case weren't so tragic, it could be a Saturday Night Live skit...

:flamemad: What the fork is that about? She mentioned her bible and the doors are supposed to clink shut behind her? Maybe they will start to feed Christians to the lions like they did in Medievial times.

You are right, the PJ should be held accountable for leaking out info.

[docwho3]

If no one minds, to comment on this case a bit, I will post some further excerpts from some news reports and also post the actual link to the report or online article for source info. I just feel more comfortable when posting some case points to also post the link to the source info in the same post.

[docwho3]

". . .A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared. . ."

This about the white van is a new fact I had not heard before in the Madeleine case!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

Both girls were blond haired!
http://is.blick.ch/img/gen/g/P/HBgPH5PA_Pxgen_r_180xA.jpg

pic from this article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/artikel68560&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUrs%2BHans%2BVon%2BAesch%26num%3D20%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

The alleged killer of the 5 years old little blond girl looks like:
http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_urs_hans_von_aesch-2.png

I wonder how close is that description to the person seen in the mccann case.

Note: The above original source links to the news articles (although not the comments or exerpts) were posted first by a member on (another forum) who deserves the credit for the finds. Thanks.

**********
". . .The parents of Madeleine McCann have been told that police have no immediate plans to summon them for a fresh interview.

Gerry and Kate McCann were also informed by a prosecutor in Portugal that detectives could be following "other lines of inquiry" apart from them. . ."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20070919/tuk-mccanns-will-not-face-re-interview-6323e80_1.html

Sat Sep 15/2007
". . . Police believe Von Aesch committed suicide, after shooting another man, who survived. . ."

". . .Swiss authorities have also been in touch with police investigating the case of Briton four-year-old Madeleine McCann, who disappeared in May while on holiday with her family in a Portuguese resort . . ."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070915/ts_nm/swiss_missing_dc

Since this Von Aesch man lived in spain awhile I wonder if this might be partly why the mccanns were mentioning they think Madeleine is in spain?

Also I see this paragraph - probably what you have already seen:
". . . Witnesses have said a man matching Von Aesch’s description had been seen watching the little girl’s home and movements for at least 10 days. "

"Detectives in Portugal are working on the theory Madeleine’s abductors could have been spying on the family for several days, observing their daily routine. . ."

". . . .Madeleine’s parents have admitted they left their children alone every night for a week before their daughter was snatched.

Yesterday the Daily Express told how detectives believe Madeleine’s kidnapper was working with an accomplice.

Police have been covertly tailing and videoing the suspect who is believed to match the description of a man seen carrying a child wrapped in a blanket shortly after Madeleine disappeared . . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15806/Madeleine-lookalike-snatched-by-pervert

[dallasvic]

[quote=One2Snoop;8990590]I still think there's too many conflicting reports coming out to determine anything. If you read on page 13 in the updates thread there are articles claiming the hair wasn't found in the boot of the car as previously claimed and they also don't have any roots to determine if the hair is Maddies.

This is all kinda driving me crazy. :confused:

:seeya: Hi Everyone & O2S,

I still agree with this post to much of this and that it is ridicules and :confused:. I just do not believe that one hand know what the other one is doing. I me they are having a contest on who has the juicy HEADLINES.
Also I think these leaks are made up hog wash.:eek: And what REALLY REALLY gets me that during all this chaos they are doing this at this little ones expense.
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_03/maddyPA0605_468x599.jpg

They need to find Maddie and quit pointing fingers.:cuss:

[dallasvic]

Here you go Eagle - article about the needle. Now where does this paper rank on Jayelles list?

http://www2.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/17693/-Syringe-found-in-Madeleine-s-apartment-

'SYRINGE FOUND IN MADELEINE'S APARTMENT'

Thursday August 30,2007

This is totally absrud.They are doctors for GOD"S SAKE.They would not leave a syringe laying out. Another thing is a seditive does not have to be given by a needle.And since all kids hate needles do you really think they would use that and not take a easy route and give the a liquid,Just pour it in a cup.

[One2Snoop]

This is totally absrud.They are doctors for GOD"S SAKE.They would not leave a syringe laying out. Another thing is a seditive does not have to be given by a needle.And since all kids hate needles do you really think they would use that and not take a easy route and give the a liquid,Just pour it in a cup.

You make a very good point Dallasvic, I agree. :seeya:

[One2Snoop]

". . .A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared. . ."

This about the white van is a new fact I had not heard before in the Madeleine case!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

Both girls were blond haired!
http://is.blick.ch/img/gen/g/P/HBgPH5PA_Pxgen_r_180xA.jpg

pic from this article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/artikel68560&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUrs%2BHans%2BVon%2BAesch%26num%3D20%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

The alleged killer of the 5 years old little blond girl looks like:
http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_urs_hans_von_aesch-2.png

I wonder how close is that description to the person seen in the mccann case.

Note: The above original source links to the news articles (although not the comments or exerpts) were posted first by a member on (another forum) who deserves the credit for the finds. Thanks.

**********
". . .The parents of Madeleine McCann have been told that police have no immediate plans to summon them for a fresh interview.

Gerry and Kate McCann were also informed by a prosecutor in Portugal that detectives could be following "other lines of inquiry" apart from them. . ."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20070919/tuk-mccanns-will-not-face-re-interview-6323e80_1.html

Sat Sep 15/2007
". . . Police believe Von Aesch committed suicide, after shooting another man, who survived. . ."

". . .Swiss authorities have also been in touch with police investigating the case of Briton four-year-old Madeleine McCann, who disappeared in May while on holiday with her family in a Portuguese resort . . ."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070915/ts_nm/swiss_missing_dc

Since this Von Aesch man lived in spain awhile I wonder if this might be partly why the mccanns were mentioning they think Madeleine is in spain?

Also I see this paragraph - probably what you have already seen:
". . . Witnesses have said a man matching Von Aesch’s description had been seen watching the little girl’s home and movements for at least 10 days. "

"Detectives in Portugal are working on the theory Madeleine’s abductors could have been spying on the family for several days, observing their daily routine. . ."

". . . .Madeleine’s parents have admitted they left their children alone every night for a week before their daughter was snatched.

Yesterday the Daily Express told how detectives believe Madeleine’s kidnapper was working with an accomplice.

Police have been covertly tailing and videoing the suspect who is believed to match the description of a man seen carrying a child wrapped in a blanket shortly after Madeleine disappeared . . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15806/Madeleine-lookalike-snatched-by-pervert

thanks docwho3 - very interesting info. Like I said earlier I hope LE takes a closer look at these men. Surely LE still has the white van in their possesion and will check it for Maddies DNA, I hope.

[dallasvic]

thanks docwho3 - very interesting info. Like I said earlier I hope LE takes a closer look at these men. Surely LE still has the white van in their possesion and will check it for Maddies DNA, I hope.

Hi O2S & DW3,

That is excellent info:) As far as the DNA testing goes I really wish they would send it to TX. They know more IMO after the DNA they did which led them to believe it was the parents. They do not evidentially know much about forensics and transfers and trace evidence to know that ;that was Maddie's DNA transfered from her own things from the house and they would still be looking for the person that took Maddie and not wasting time.

[Eagle1]

". . .A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared. . ."

This about the white van is a new fact I had not heard before in the Madeleine case!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

Both girls were blond haired!
http://is.blick.ch/img/gen/g/P/HBgPH5PA_Pxgen_r_180xA.jpg

pic from this article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/artikel68560&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUrs%2BHans%2BVon%2BAesch%26num%3D20%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

The alleged killer of the 5 years old little blond girl looks like:
http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_urs_hans_von_aesch-2.png

I wonder how close is that description to the person seen in the mccann case.

Note: The above original source links to the news articles (although not the comments or exerpts) were posted first by a member on (another forum) who deserves the credit for the finds. Thanks.

**********
". . .The parents of Madeleine McCann have been told that police have no immediate plans to summon them for a fresh interview.

Gerry and Kate McCann were also informed by a prosecutor in Portugal that detectives could be following "other lines of inquiry" apart from them. . ."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20070919/tuk-mccanns-will-not-face-re-interview-6323e80_1.html

Sat Sep 15/2007
". . . Police believe Von Aesch committed suicide, after shooting another man, who survived. . ."

". . .Swiss authorities have also been in touch with police investigating the case of Briton four-year-old Madeleine McCann, who disappeared in May while on holiday with her family in a Portuguese resort . . ."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070915/ts_nm/swiss_missing_dc

Since this Von Aesch man lived in spain awhile I wonder if this might be partly why the mccanns were mentioning they think Madeleine is in spain?

Also I see this paragraph - probably what you have already seen:
". . . Witnesses have said a man matching Von Aesch’s description had been seen watching the little girl’s home and movements for at least 10 days. "

"Detectives in Portugal are working on the theory Madeleine’s abductors could have been spying on the family for several days, observing their daily routine. . ."

". . . .Madeleine’s parents have admitted they left their children alone every night for a week before their daughter was snatched.

Yesterday the Daily Express told how detectives believe Madeleine’s kidnapper was working with an accomplice.

Police have been covertly tailing and videoing the suspect who is believed to match the description of a man seen carrying a child wrapped in a blanket shortly after Madeleine disappeared . . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15806/Madeleine-lookalike-snatched-by-pervert

Great job, DocWho3! It took a few posts to finish everything else that had been on the tip of peoples' tongues and get right down to all this. That's about 8 missing children, at your link about the white van.

Re the syringe, apparently there were no fingerprints on it, as there would have been in the McCanns had carelessly left it behind.

[docwho3]

Great job, DocWho3! It took a few posts to finish everything else that had been on the tip of peoples' tongues and get right down to all this. That's about 8 missing children, at your link about the white van.

Re the syringe, apparently there were no fingerprints on it, as there would have been in the McCanns had carelessly left it behind. Thank you for the kind words.

Evidently one or two of the news reports had hinted at a second partner being present both in the 5 year olds case and in Madeleine's case.

In the Von Aesch case of the 5 years old they seem to think someone got rid of the different gun that was used on the man that was shot and injured.

And there have been reports of more than one man in the Madeleine case as well. I think one of the already linked news reports from my post comments on those things.

The possible second man makes me wonder if a vehicle other than the white van was used in the Madeleine case to transport her.

And then again I can't really conclude that the two cases were done by the same people in spite of all the news articles but it is a valid line of investigation that L.E. should be sure to follow before jumping to conclusions about anything else.

It is always still possible that the parents did the crime in some way but at least we have established that there are evidently multiple lines of investigation that still need to be followed to be thorough.

(Note to readers: I am always wiling to start the investigation of a missing child from the parents or caregivers and work the circle ever wider from there. I just also like to see all valid lines of investigation worked to a conclusion.)

:) And yes, to answer your earlier question eagle1: I do make notes when I read articles. I open up a notepad program on my computer. It is a simple text program and any bits that I find interesting I copy-N-paste article excerpts on to that notepad page and also copy-N-paste a web address link below it.

[Eagle1]

Thank you for the kind words.

Evidently one or two of the news reports had hinted at a second partner being present both in the 5 year olds case and in Madeleine's case.

In the Von Aesch case of the 5 years old they seem to think someone got rid of the different gun that was used on the man that was shot and injured.

.....................
:) And yes, to answer your earlier question eagle1: I do make notes when I read articles. I open up a notepad program on my computer. It is a simple text program and any bits that I find interesting I copy-N-paste article excerpts on to that notepad page and also copy-N-paste a web address link below it.

Thanks for that answer. I just clicked All Programs and found I do still have NotePad.

[Jayelles]

One2Snoop wrote:


This article contains some strange reasoning:



It could equally suggest the exact opposite: that the McCanns discovered that the sedation was not effective, and thus they increased the dosage, or switched medications.

The McCanns have admitted that they administered Calpol to all 3 children for sedation purposes. So it could be, for example, that they felt Calpol was not sufficient.

Source?

Those denying that a syringe was left behind by the McCanns are, I suppose, accusing the police of planting evidence?

Incidentally, it would be interesting to know the details of how long the girl cried ("for some time" is vague) and exactly when the McCanns "returned to the apartment after dinner." Remember, on the night of the girl's disappearance, the McCanns were still "at dinner" at 10 PM. In fact, the only thing that broke up the drinking dinner party at 10 PM was the discovered disappearance of the girl.

So when did the McCanns return to find their daughter crying out for Daddy?

Amazingly they still did not employ a babysitter, which the resort offers for exactly such purposes as dining. Presumably, they took other measures to deal with the problem. Such as a modification of their sedation routine. JMHO

You appear to be assuming that tabloid coverage of the case is accurate when in fact it transpires much of it is misreported and inaccurate.

Again, I would ask you to provide sources for your claims.

[elvislives]

:flamemad: What the fork is that about? She mentioned her bible and the doors are supposed to clink shut behind her? Maybe they will start to feed Christians to the lions like they did in Medievial times.

You are right, the PJ should be held accountable for leaking out info.

Note to self: Do not go to Portugal for vacation.

[elvislives]

This is totally absrud.They are doctors for GOD"S SAKE.They would not leave a syringe laying out. Another thing is a seditive does not have to be given by a needle.And since all kids hate needles do you really think they would use that and not take a easy route and give the a liquid,Just pour it in a cup.

ITA. And a 4 year old can talk. 'So how was your night last night, Maddie?" "It was fine, I took a bath, watched cartoons, then Mom and Dad stuck a needle in my arm and injected me with medithine before I went to bed"

[Charon]

Can't argue with your reasoning. In fact I agree with your angle, the "claims" being "sourced" or not.

Hang in there pal, you'll see this discussion swinging like a goddless couple from one point to the next. It all depends on which newspaper article makes the most convincing claims. Quite stupid realy.

[Jayelles]

But here is one source for the information that the McCanns were using Calpol to sedate their children:

David Connett and Amol Rajan in Praia da Luz
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/article2948184.ece?service=print

Under Portuguese secrecy laws police cannot comment on ongoing investigations but the Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias, citing informed investigation sources, said the couple had both admitted to giving Madeleine and their other two children a sedative on the night she vanished. Family sources said the couple had never hidden the fact they had given their children recommended doses of Calpol, a well-known, commercially available painkiller.


Also,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20765844/site/newsweek/page/3/
Madeleine’s grandfather did indeed tell reporters that the McCanns gave the children Calpol, but Calpol is nothing more than a solution of liquid paracetamol (known as acetaminophen in the United States), marketed specifically for the treatment of children with flu-like symptoms or teething problems.





Okay, so these are two references which confirm that the McCann's gave their children Calpol - a painkiller used for teething and colds. Where does it say they gave their children Calpol to sedate them (which is what you have repeatedly claimed)?

You can buy Calpol over the counter. In fact, you can buy it in a newspaper shop. You'd be hard pushed to find any British parents who had never given their child Calpol and I'd have been surprised if the McCanns hadn't used it. You get free samples of Calpol in your baby welcome pack from the maternity hospital.

An overdose of Calpol would cause liver damage because it's active ingredient is paracetemol. This is widely known. The maximum dose for a child of Madeleine's age is 10 mls (two teaspoonfuls). If she had been feverish or in pain, this would have settled her enough to allow her to get to sleep. However, it isn't a sedative per se.

[elvislives]

That is a big, steaming load of Horse Pucky......It is making the Portuguese police look more crooked and sinister all the time. It really makes it look like they are out to destroy Kate. My Lord, so they cannot get a solid case on them so they will lock her up for the diary. I bet they are going to try and use that to weaken her in a cell so that they can get a confession out of her. They are getting dirtier, I at first looked at the McCann's negatively for fleeing and returning to Britain, I don't know if someone was advising them, but that was a smart move. People are now playing dirty and they don't even know if they are guilty, real third world police mentality. I hope somehow this is not allowed to happen, if they are innocent what a freaking tragedy to revictimize and revictimize them over and over. I am getting pissed.

ITA. If I were the McCanns I would have fled Portugal like a bat out of hell. Especially after seeing the pictures of the mother of another murdered child who was falsely accused by them and beaten up so that she would make a confession (pictures of her bruised and battered face were on the news last night). It turned out this mother was innocent. I think it was an uncle who killed her daughter.

The assault against this innocent mother was at the hands of the same cop who was the lead investigator in the McCann case. Talk about corrupt. Hard to believe this is happening in first world countries in this day and age. :flamemad:

[elvislives]

Okay, so these are two references which confirm that the McCann's gave their children Calpol - a painkiller used for teething and colds. Where does it say they gave their children Calpol to sedate them (which is what you have repeatedly claimed)?

You can buy Calpol over the counter. In fact, you can buy it in a newspaper shop. You'd be hard pushed to find any British parents who had never given their child Calpol and I'd have been surprised if the McCanns hadn't used it. You get free samples of Calpol in your baby welcome pack from the maternity hospital.

An overdose of Calpol would cause liver damage because it's active ingredient is paracetemol. This is widely known. The maximum dose for a child of Madeleine's age is 10 mls (two teaspoonfuls). If she had been feverish or in pain, this would have settled her enough to allow her to get to sleep. However, it isn't a sedative per se.


Just some clarification for American readers: paractemol is equivalent to acetominophen. It does not cause drowsiness, but if pain or fever were keeping her awake, it would, as Jay suggested ,alleviate her symptoms and allow her to get to sleep.

But Calpol comes in several varieties (just like Tylenol). I assumed people were suggesting that M was given Calpol Night which contains diphenhydramine, which can cause drowsiness. But who knows since the news reports are all over the map...

But the bottom line: both drugs are safe and indicated for young children. And liver damage caused by aceteminophen/paracetemol is usually in conjunction with excessive dosages combined with cirrhotic liver from alcoholism (there is an infamous lawsuit by an alcoholic who sued Johnson & Johnson for liver damage he sustained while continually ODing on Tylenol and alcohol--Orange County, California if memory serves).

[Portabella]

Does anyone know, is Calpol acetominiphen? Is it the same as tylenol in the states? We have a Tylenol PM but that is only for adults, childrens tylenol and infants tylenol only have acetominiphen, not any other active ingredients when it comes to children.

Also, I know that Benadryl is reccommended by physicians when your child is restless due to sickness, it helps them sleep due to the antihystimine in it. If you look at the active ingredients in insomnia meds (OTC) like "Simply Sleep" and such you will see the only active ingredient is also Antihystamine. I still say if they sedated their daughter it was with dimetapp or benadryl or the european equivalent and how do we know that she was not upset or teething? JIMHO

[Jayelles]

Just some clarification for American readers: paractemol is equivalent to acetominophen. It does not cause drowsiness, but if pain or fever were keeping her awake, it would, as Jay suggested ,alleviate her symptoms and allow her to get to sleep.

But Calpol comes in several varieties (just like Tylenol). I assumed people were suggesting that M was given Calpol Night which contains diphenhydramine, which can cause drowsiness. But who knows since the news reports are all over the map...

But the bottom line: both drugs are safe and indicated for young children. And liver damage caused by aceteminophen/paracetemol is usually in conjunction with excessive dosages combined with cirrhotic liver from alcoholism (there is an infamous lawsuit by an alcoholic who sued Johnson & Johnson for liver damage he sustained while continually ODing on Tylenol and alcohol--Orange County, California if memory serves).

I've never used Calpol Night but I can say with absolute certainty that when the vast majority of parents speak about Calpol - they'll be referring to the simple painkiller. It's an absolutely staple of the medicine cabinet. It comes in two strengths - Calpol and Calpol 6+. It also comes in regular and sugar free flavours. Calpol Night and Calcough are fairly new products and I doubt many people would routinely have them in their medicine cupboard. Other cough medicines are more popular - such as Tixylix and Benylin (now if anything knocks you out it's Benylin!). Benylin comes in paed strength and you can get it for dry coughs and chesty coughs.

[Athena]

Hi all,

Haven't posted in this thread in a while mostly because can't add much to the conversation as I do not believe the McCann's had anything to do with Maddie's disappearance unless something else changes. Just wanted to say hi :seeya: and post this from today's news:

A source close to Mr Verao said the investigation was passing into a "waiting phase" as detectives examined the theories that Madeleine may have been kidnapped or killed by accident.

He told Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias that all lines of inquiry remained open.

Mr and Mrs McCann's official spokesman Clarence Mitchell said they were relieved when told they were not expected to be interrogated again.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/20/nmaddy1020.xml

[Jayelles]

OK. Re the distance between the tapas Bar and the McCann's apartment.

Varying distances have been reported in the media and on the forums ranging from 50m to 200m.

We can use common sense and an aerial photo to settle this. A football pitch is 100m long. A tennis court is between 75-100ft long depending on whether it is a standard size. Those of us who follow sport will be well aware that you can fit several tennis courts onto a football pitch!

There are two tennis courts near the apartments - I doubt they will be full-sized, but just for arguments' sake, we'll assume they are 100ft long.

100ft = 30.7m
If the 200m claim was correct, then we'd be able to fit almost 7 tennis court lengths between the Tapas Bar and the McCann apartment

I captured the following image from Google Earth. It isn't terrific quality and it lost a little more quality when I uploaded it to my webspace. However, it is still possible to see the two tennis courts. I have marked the position of the Tapas Bar and the McCann apartments with yellow squares. Then I marked a line length of one of the tennis courts and thickened it. Finally I copied and pasted this line twice - that was all I could fit in between the Tapas Bar and the McCann apartment.

That would make the distance between the Tapas Bar and the apartment no more than 200ft (as opposed to 200m) or 61m. In reality, the tennis courts are more likely to be 75ft in length which would make the claim of 50m more accurate.

I personally think that somewhere along the line, someone has mistakenly reported 200m instead of 200ft and this has become a "fact".

http://people.delphiforums.com/jayelles/ocean%20club.jpg

[Jayelles]

PS - note how sheltered the area at the back of the apartment is with trees. There are also two walls - an outer wall and an inner wall which provide considerable screening from the road for anyone who wanted to break into the apartment.

[andU]

OK. Re the distance between the tapas Bar and the McCann's apartment.

Varying distances have been reported in the media and on the forums ranging from 50m to 200m.

We can use common sense and an aerial photo to settle this. A football pitch is 100m long. A tennis court is between 75-100ft long depending on whether it is a standard size. Those of us who follow sport will be well aware that you can fit several tennis courts onto a football pitch!

There are two tennis courts near the apartments - I doubt they will be full-sized, but just for arguments' sake, we'll assume they are 100ft long.

100ft = 30.7m
If the 200m claim was correct, then we'd be able to fit almost 7 tennis court lengths between the Tapas Bar and the McCann apartment

I captured the following image from Google Earth. It isn't terrific quality and it lost a little more quality when I uploaded it to my webspace. However, it is still possible to see the two tennis courts. I have marked the position of the Tapas Bar and the McCann apartments with yellow squares. Then I marked a line length of one of the tennis courts and thickened it. Finally I copied and pasted this line twice - that was all I could fit in between the Tapas Bar and the McCann apartment.

That would make the distance between the Tapas Bar and the apartment no more than 200ft (as opposed to 200m) or 61m. In reality, the tennis courts are more likely to be 75ft in length which would make the claim of 50m more accurate.

I personally think that somewhere along the line, someone has mistakenly reported 200m instead of 200ft and this has become a "fact".



I would agree that is what has happened. Thanks for researching this for all of us, Jayelles!

[Jayelles]

I would agree that is what has happened. Thanks for researching this for all of us, Jayelles!

I actually didn't realise you could measure distances on Google Earth. I did this, and it says that the distance between the tapas bar and the apartment is 158ft which converts to 48 metres (allow for a couple of metres error and that would tend to corroborate my suggestion that the tennis courts are 75ft and not the 100ft full sized ones)

[Jayelles]

Whilst on Google Earth, I also scoured the coastline around Praia da Luz and the nearest marina is in Lagos.

I measured this out along the main route to Lagos and it's 4.64 miles. Without a car, that's a long walk with a body!

[Eagle1]

To answer Hidecki's question about the syringe, no, I don't think anyone has ever accused police of planting it, having wiped prints off of it.

More likely the kidnapper planted it. Police fingerprints were evidently not on it, nor the parents' prints.

If it's true that Von A.'s white van was parked in front of the McCanns' lodging for a few days, could have been him, and/or possibly some accomplices.

I have a question too. Would a man know not to park his vehicle in front of a crime-scene-to-be if not on drugs or something? Same question about the "bald" man in Kate's family playground snapshot. Would he have to be on drugs or just stupid, to just stand there and let someone take his picture?

[docwho3]

Jayelles, Wonderful work. Thank you. Please continue doing such good work.

[rashomon]

On what floor was the McCanns' holiday apartment? Was it on an upper floor? If yes, which?
Suppose an intruder snatched Madeleine from her bed - were there several ways he could have exited the apartment, or only one way?

[rashomon]

I personally think that somewhere along the line, someone has mistakenly reported 200m instead of 200ft and this has become a "fact".

http://people.delphiforums.com/jayelles/ocean%20club.jpg
In this timeline, it says the distance between the tapas bar and the apartment was 200 yards. One yard is a little less than a meter (= 91,44 cm).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/exclusions/madeleine/nosplit/timeline1.xml

[Louisadelmar]

In this timeline, it says the distance between the tapas bar and the apartment was 200 yards. One yard is a little less than a meter (= 91,44 cm).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/exclusions/madeleine/nosplit/timeline1.xml

Well, if newpapers are never wrong, and based on Jayelle's photo link - then Portuguese tennis courts must be 100 yards long.

[Charon]

Keep in mind that there's a diference between a syringe VOID of fingerprints and one WIPED of fingerprints. I dont think this was specified. A wiped surface is quite obvious during prints dusting and so are useless smudges should they be found.

[Jayelles]

Well, if newpapers are never wrong, and based on Jayelle's photo link - then Portuguese tennis courts must be 100 yards long.

Yep - tennis courts the size of football pitches :-)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/rules_and_equipment/4200666.stm

Did you know that not all pitches are the same size?

The length of a pitch must be between 100 yards (90m) and 130 yards (120m) and the width not less than 50 yards (45m) and not more than 100 yards (90m).



Of course, if anyone is in doubt about the dimensions of these tennis courts, all they have to do is look at the tennis courts in comparison to the sun beds which are also visible in the aerial photo (not my google photo which isn't clear). A sun bed is approximately 6 feet long - that's approximately 2 metres. If the tennis courts were 100metres long, then we'd be able to fit 50 sunbeds end to end - which we clearly could not (maybe a dozen).

Or - we could use the cars. How long is an average car? 4m? 5m? COuld we fit 20-25 cars end to end along the side of one of these tennis courts?

Or is more like 5-6?

http://bp1.blogger.com/_mXbRBcSh0gs/RlowOZfs4eI/AAAAAAAAAZw/NnmhuElEmVI/s1600-h/Aerial_Photo_Ocean_Club_Eng.gif

Common sense will provide the answer :-)

[Eagle1]

PS - note how sheltered the area at the back of the apartment is with trees. There are also two walls - an outer wall and an inner wall which provide considerable screening from the road for anyone who wanted to break into the apartment.

Yep, this is probably where they went in.

And another thing about my 2 or 3 hobby subjects in this case,

1) The needle, shows whoever planted it KNEW THEY WERE DOCTORS?

2) The two sad pics of Maddie from a home video, one will print. I keep it on my desk. It grabs me and bothers me all the time, her biting her lower lip, looks like she's been crying, something more serious than a simple playtime accident like a fall. http://edition.com.com/interactive/world/0705/gallery.missing.girl...

3) Baby Monitors, mentioned at another forum, usually are noticeable wherever you buy baby clothes and things. (Or maybe not in Europe? Would these parents have cared enough to buy one?) I think we have a DUTY to keep emphasizing what I think of as criminal negligence or negligent homicide, until they enact and well-publicize wome way-overdue laws, for present and FUTURE parents, who may not be paying much attention now. Sure we all make some mistakes as parents but that's no excuse. Do we want such doctors treating us when our lives might be at stake? A whole group of them? What does this say about the rest? Are any of us really in good hands?

[cat840]

Yep, this is probably where they went in.

And another thing about my 2 or 3 hobby subjects in this case,

1) The needle, shows whoever planted it KNEW THEY WERE DOCTORS?

2) The two sad pics of Maddie from a home video, one will print. I keep it on my desk. It grabs me and bothers me all the time, her biting her lower lip, looks like she's been crying, something more serious than a simple playtime accident like a fall. http://edition.com.com/interactive/world/0705/gallery.missing.girl...

3) Baby Monitors, mentioned at another forum, usually are noticeable wherever you buy baby clothes and things. (Or maybe not in Europe? Would these parents have cared enough to buy one?) I think we have a DUTY to keep emphasizing what I think of as criminal negligence or negligent homicide, until they enact and well-publicize wome way-overdue laws, for present and FUTURE parents, who may not be paying much attention now. Sure we all make some mistakes as parents but that's no excuse. Do we want such doctors treating us when our lives might be at stake? A whole group of them? What does this say about the rest? Are any of us really in good hands?

Just a question how this forum works.

Does putting JMHO below a post allow you to make any statements you like inside the post as if they were facts?

I just noticed that you can even turn off signatures which means that not everyone will see the JMHO stuff.

[elvislives]

Keep in mind that there's a diference between a syringe VOID of fingerprints and one WIPED of fingerprints. I dont think this was specified. A wiped surface is quite obvious during prints dusting and so are useless smudges should they be found.

Syringes are individually packaged for sterility. Does anyone know if the alleged syringe was in fact out of its sterile package and whether or not it still contained the hypodermic needle? I would be very interested in the guage of needle that was found (if any) as that can be very indicative as to what type of drug it was intended to deliver.TIA

[Jayelles]

Syringes are individually packaged for sterility. Does anyone know if the alleged syringe was in fact out of its sterile package and whether or not it still contained the hypodermic needle? I would be very interested in the guage of needle that was found (if any) as that can be very indicative as to what type of drug it was intended to deliver.TIA

I'm not even certain that it's a fact a syringe was found. I once found a syringe in a public loo. At the time, I presumed it was left there by a diabetic or a druggie. Now I wonder if it was left by doctors sedating their unruly children? :eek:

[elvislives]

2) The two sad pics of Maddie from a home video, one will print. I keep it on my desk. It grabs me and bothers me all the time, her biting her lower lip, looks like she's been crying, something more serious than a simple playtime accident like a fall. http://edition.com.com/interactive/world/0705/gallery.missing.girl...



Eagle, I'll see if I can find a link to the home video where these still frames were taken from. I have seen the clips several times and they show a happy smiling Maddie playing with friends and at one point she turned her head and was not smiling which allowed a perfect view of the flash in her iris. That is why the family chose to publicize that particular frame.

On the one where she is biting her lip, it appears that the videographer had just asked her a question. IMS she smiled a little then seemed to ponder the question then bit her lip as if puzzled, then smiled again and skipped back to her friends. Again I will try to find the clip. I think you'll get a very different impression after seeing it. jmo

[andU]

I'm not even certain that it's a fact a syringe was found. I once found a syringe in a public loo. At the time, I presumed it was left there by a diabetic or a druggie. Now I wonder if it was left by doctors sedating their unruly children? :eek:

Bet you just passed it by, too... never once thinking it could be evidence of that sedating? :cool:

[Jayelles]

Bet you just passed it by, too... never once thinking it could be evidence of that sedating? :cool:

Intravenous calpol? Now there's a thought. The only thing that worries me about that though is the fact that Calpol is extremely thick (a spoon would stand up in it). I can't begin to imagine how hard it would be to administer it intravenously. Having said that, you can buy little syringe "spoons" for administering Calpol orally to babies who are too small to take it off a spoon.

[elvislives]

I'm not even certain that it's a fact a syringe was found. I once found a syringe in a public loo. At the time, I presumed it was left there by a diabetic or a druggie. Now I wonder if it was left by doctors sedating their unruly children? :eek:

Was this loo in Rothley?? IF so then I am sure the syringe belonged to the McCanns. You need to call the PJ immediately with this new and damning evidence!!! ;)

[Jayelles]

Was this loo in Rothley?? IF so then I am sure the syringe belonged to the McCanns. You need to call the PJ immediately with this new and damning evidence!!! ;)

It was actually in St Andrews and it was about ten years ago - but Gerry McCann is Scottish so there's defnitely a link ... :eek:

[rashomon]

Even if the distance between the Tapas bar and the apartment was 'only' 200 feet, the parents left their three small children alone in the apartment, neither within seeing nor hearing range. I don't believe they have anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance, but this was totally irresponsible on their part.

jmo

[Louisadelmar]

Even if the distance between the Tapas bar and the apartment was 'only' 200 feet, the parents left their three small children alone in the apartment, neither within seeing nor hearing range. I don't believe they have anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance, but this was totally irresponsible on their part.

jmo

I'm sure no one wishes more fervently than the McCanns that they hadn't left their children alone. So why keep harping on it? What is to be gained from adding to their guilt. If you were sitting in their living room would you keep going on about it?

[Jayelles]

Even if the distance between the Tapas bar and the apartment was 'only' 200 feet, the parents left their three small children alone in the apartment, neither within seeing nor hearing range. I don't believe they have anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance, but this was totally irresponsible on their part.

jmo

Rash, two of our bedrooms are out of sight and hearing range from two of our public rooms (including our sitting room). We're not going to agree on this - it's clearly a cultural issue. The points is, the McCann's will regret their arrangements for the rest of their lives but they genuinely thought their children were safe. It wasn't as if the kids were left to wander the streets or allowed to play near a main road. They were tucked up in bed, asleep in their apartment and their parents were checking on them at regular intervals.

OK, not everyone would do that but many HAVE done for years without incident. Children have been taken from their beds whilst the parents slept nearby.

If "baby listening" services weren't popular, they wouldn't be so extensively offered by hotels here.

[Jayelles]

I'm sure no one wishes more fervently than the McCanns that they hadn't left their children alone. So why keep harping on it? What is to be gained from adding to their guilt. If you were sitting in their living room would you keep going on about it?


Precisely. What's done is done and no-one is hurting more over it than the McCanns themselves.

[Mishell1383]

It always boggles my mind how a few mins, nevermind mins. seconds can change your entire life. This poor family. I really feel as though they had nothing to do with it, now. I was really leaning towards their guilt, but these past few news updates, thanks to Odette! have really shed some light into the desperation of the police force and the sick and twisted minds of the media.

[Mishell1383]

What I don't understand, is, why do the friends talk to the media? "a source close to the family," or "a family friend stated that" why do they leak information like that? Aren't they supposed to be loyal friends?

[andU]

Precisely. What's done is done and no-one is hurting more over it than the McCanns themselves.

I agree. Cultures are different. It isn't like they hung a sign out on the door saying that the kids were in there alone, inviting someone to help him/herself to take any or all of them and do to them whatever they wished.

[LindaA]

While we are on the subject of "hanging signs out" to advertise that children are left alone, you all do know, I hope, that you should remove any of those stickers from your bedroom windows meant to tell firefighters that that is a child's room. They are open invitations to pedaphiles and burglers.

[Results]

Does anyone have an idea why the last person at that table, IIRC, Ms Webster, left her purse at the bar and went to the apt where everyone was and then returned to the bar to retrieve those items? Your on vacation so you have your identification, your money, and your camera with vacation pictures and walk out of sight if those valuable items? Is this a cultural difference to to just leave your personal item and come back for them?

[elvislives]

Does anyone know, is Calpol acetominiphen? Is it the same as tylenol in the states? We have a Tylenol PM but that is only for adults, childrens tylenol and infants tylenol only have acetominiphen, not any other active ingredients when it comes to children.

Also, I know that Benadryl is reccommended by physicians when your child is restless due to sickness, it helps them sleep due to the antihystimine in it. If you look at the active ingredients in insomnia meds (OTC) like "Simply Sleep" and such you will see the only active ingredient is also Antihystamine. I still say if they sedated their daughter it was with dimetapp or benadryl or the european equivalent and how do we know that she was not upset or teething? JIMHO


Portabella

I am not sure you got a direct answer to this question but I will try and clarify so we are all on the same page.

Calpol= Children's Tylenol= Aceteminophen: It is an analgesic and has no sedative properties.

There IS a version of children's tylenol/calpol that contains diphenhydramine (the same active ingredient that is in benedryl):

Calpol Night= Children's Tylenol Cold & Allergy= Aceteminophen + diphenhydramine: Again aceteminophen is an analgesic and diphenhydramine is an antihistamine which may cause drowsiness.

Both drugs have been studied extensively. There are literally thousands of clinical studies involving both children and adults that have proven that both of these drugs are safe and effective (as is required by the US FDA in order to get approval and labeling). Due to the vast amounts of clinical data, the FDA has classified these as OTC drugs that are safe for children and adults.

These data can be found at the NIH, FDA or PubMed websites if anyone is interested in reading further(I believe you can only read the abstracts without being a registered member).

Also, there have been deaths, both intentional and unintentional, associated with overdoses of these meds--usually in combination with more lethal prescription drugs and/or alcohol and most involve chronic use and very high dosages.

However, death by overdose is NOT immediate but usually takes several days (usually in aceteminophen ODs the pt is already in renal or liver failure due to cirrhotic liver from alcololism, chemotherapy, or congenital abnormalities). Furthermore, there are ANTIDOTES to both of these medications that EVERY MD should be aware of. In other words, if a physician would for some reason OD a patient on these meds, distinctive symptoms would emerge over time and the physician would then administer an antidote to REVERSE the med, thus preventing morbidity or mortality.

I hope that is clear. Let me know if you have any questions.

[elvislives]

Intravenous calpol? Now there's a thought. The only thing that worries me about that though is the fact that Calpol is extremely thick (a spoon would stand up in it). I can't begin to imagine how hard it would be to administer it intravenously. Having said that, you can buy little syringe "spoons" for administering Calpol orally to babies who are too small to take it off a spoon.

Jay, you underestimate the craftiness of these diabolical doctors. Any physician knows that a viscous syrup can be made more fluid by diluting it or heating it up. This would make it easily possible to deliver via IV injection, hence the incriminating syringe...

[elvislives]

It was actually in St Andrews and it was about ten years ago - but Gerry McCann is Scottish so there's defnitely a link ... :eek:


Ten years ago, eh?? This would certainly prove advanced premeditation and malice aforethought which of course would elevate this crime from an accidental homocide to first degree murder. They sure are lucky they aren't being tried in one of the blood thirsty US states, such as Florida or Texas, where they might just end up on death row...


p.s. I hope no one is offended that some of us are interjecting sarcasm into this case. I realize we are discussing a missing child but sometimes I need some levity just to balance out the gravity of these horrific cases. Not to mention the news is reporting such ludicrous things and they are actually serious. Anyway I hope no offense is taken by anyone. :)

[andU]

Not at all offended, Elvislives... you go, girl. I understand.

[elvislives]

Precisely. What's done is done and no-one is hurting more over it than the McCanns themselves.

ITA. I also can't help wondering why the McCanns are being singled out with all this criticism. There are countless cases of child abductions/murders where the perpetrater was given the opportunity to snatch the child due to the actions of a naive parent, not realizing that they were placing their child in harms way.

The most infamous US case is Adam Walsh whose mother left him in an arcade so she could shop nearby and he was kidnapped and murdered by a pedophile. I've never heard anyone berate her for this fatal error and frankly would be disgusted with anyone who did.

I truly don't understand the mentality of anyone who feels warranted to sadistically ridicule suffering parents in the depths of their despair.

I am sure the McCanns would do anything to turn back the clock and act differently, so lambasting them just seems incredibly cruel imo---esp. for members of CL who I would think would have some compassion for crime victims.

No doubt, the McCanns are paying the ultimate price and will regret their actions for the rest of their lives. That people are cruelly adding to their unbearable suffering is mindboggling to me. jmo

[Portabella]

Thank you Elvis for you patience in answering my question....:beer:
I just had never heard of it before obviously and needed something to compare it to.

I just hope that there is eventual closure to this and the parents can emotionally deal with the outcome. It is every parents worst nightmare.

[rashomon]

Rash, two of our bedrooms are out of sight and hearing range from two of our public rooms (including our sitting room). We're not going to agree on this - it's clearly a cultural issue. The points is, the McCann's will regret their arrangements for the rest of their lives but they genuinely thought their children were safe. It wasn't as if the kids were left to wander the streets or allowed to play near a main road. They were tucked up in bed, asleep in their apartment and their parents were checking on them at regular intervals.

OK, not everyone would do that but many HAVE done for years without incident. Children have been taken from their beds whilst the parents slept nearby.

If "baby listening" services weren't popular, they wouldn't be so extensively offered by hotels here.
I think it is less a cultural issue than a personal choice which the parents made.
The left the patio door open - what exactly is a patio door? Does this mean mean anyone could have entered the (unlocked?) room where the children were sleeping?

jmo

[docwho3]

I want to comment on something but before I do I would like to explain that the comment is not based on any desire to belittle the parents for not watching their children. I will leave such comments and possible judgements for after the case is solved. This comment of mine has to do with the case, as in what might have happened in a way.

Ok, my comment:
Someone posted saying ". . . It isn't like they hung a sign out on the door saying that the kids were in there alone, inviting someone to help him/herself to take any or all of them . . ." and although at first it might seem that is true, in fact they may have done just that very thing although possibly unintentionally.

One or more news reports stated they had left the children alone like that every night for about a week. If anyone was watching for such a pattern as an opportunity to get a child then this pattern of the mccanns was made to order for them. I wonder if this pattern figures in to what happened to Madeleine. Some burglars and some kidnappers case the area before doing their evil deed to learn when people are gone from home and to see if anyone has a trustworthy routine that sets a time they can depend on the adult people being gone from the home. And we know there has been one or more news articles that said someone was watching the place where the mccanns were vacationing. Is it possible that the mccann's routine being a sort of sale flag to a perp/s actions actually bolsters the theory of a kidnapping having taken place?

[Sharon]

I want to comment on something but before I do I would like to explain that the comment is not based on any desire to belittle the parents for not watching their children. I will leave such comments and possible judgements for after the case is solved. This comment of mine has to do with the case, as in what might have happened in a way.

Ok, my comment:
Someone posted saying ". . . It isn't like they hung a sign out on the door saying that the kids were in there alone, inviting someone to help him/herself to take any or all of them . . ." and although at first it might seem that is true, in fact they may have done just that very thing although possibly unintentionally.

One or more news reports stated they had left the children alone like that every night for about a week. If anyone was watching for such a pattern as an opportunity to get a child then this pattern of the mccanns was made to order for them. I wonder if this pattern figures in to what happened to Madeleine. Some burglars and some kidnappers case the area before doing their evil deed to learn when people are gone from home and to see if anyone has a trustworthy routine that sets a time they can depend on the adult people being gone from the home. And we know there has been one or more news articles that said someone was watching the place where the mccanns were vacationing. Is it possible that the mccann's routine being a sort of sale flag to a perp/s actions actually bolsters the theory of a kidnapping having taken place?

I actually agree with everything you have said.

As a side note, I have always believed that we are all pretty vulnerable even in our brick houses with high walls and alarms. Often the thought runs through my mind that if someone really wanted to `get` any of us, it is not so difficult. We all go about our lives completely oblivious to most risks, most of us have routines that we follow day in day out, you know, food shopping, school pick up, work etc. and we are all living on luck that some sick perp has not made us the object of their next target.

Seeing what happened to M. is evidence that the evil eye can be watching from anywhere, even a fun loving holiday resort. We as parents must be on our guard always......but it is not possible to watch 24/7. It definately feels better to think that if we do certain things, we can avoid harm to our loved ones, and I myself live with this as my goal as a parent. But the truth is, we have very little control over our fate at the hands of these sorts of perps.

Call me crazy, but I have often thought of the idea of micro chipping our kids. Well they do it for pets, and it means that the recipient can always be located. Any thoughts?????

[dallasvic]

Does anyone have an idea why the last person at that table, IIRC, Ms Webster, left her purse at the bar and went to the apt where everyone was and then returned to the bar to retrieve those items? Your on vacation so you have your identification, your money, and your camera with vacation pictures and walk out of sight if those valuable items? Is this a cultural difference to to just leave your personal item and come back for them?


Results,

That is a good question.When your on vacation that is something i would myself hang on too dearly. Traveler's checks, cash, credit card. Very good point.
You always come up with some thing to figure out. Really like posting with you :seeya:

[Eagle1]

Keep in mind that there's a diference between a syringe VOID of fingerprints and one WIPED of fingerprints. I dont think this was specified. A wiped surface is quite obvious during prints dusting and so are useless smudges should they be found.


Finally, somebody noticed the question. No, I don't think we've been told whether there were any prints, or whether it had been wiped. You're saying, I think, that it could have been someone wearing gloves. Okay.

If planted by an intruder, seems to me that might be an indication they knew the parents were doctors, a way of "rubbing it in" or implying they used drugs, something like that, and someone might have additional ideas about that. Thanks for the reply.

Editing to add an opinion that we're just asserting a valuable principle, that babies should never be left alone like that, rather than "judging" the parents, in case this hasn't been said before. Apologies if I'm repeating. Portugal and all other countries should have laws, and educate their young future parents well in advance about this part of parenting. It's not un-Christian to be emphasizing the point for future kids' protection, by any stretch.

[sharlock]

I actually agree with everything you have said.

As a side note, I have always believed that we are all pretty vulnerable even in our brick houses with high walls and alarms. Often the thought runs through my mind that if someone really wanted to `get` any of us, it is not so difficult. We all go about our lives completely oblivious to most risks, most of us have routines that we follow day in day out, you know, food shopping, school pick up, work etc. and we are all living on luck that some sick perp has not made us the object of their next target.

Seeing what happened to M. is evidence that the evil eye can be watching from anywhere, even a fun loving holiday resort. We as parents must be on our guard always......but it is not possible to watch 24/7. It definately feels better to think that if we do certain things, we can avoid harm to our loved ones, and I myself live with this as my goal as a parent. But the truth is, we have very little control over our fate at the hands of these sorts of perps.

Call me crazy, but I have often thought of the idea of micro chipping our kids. Well they do it for pets, and it means that the recipient can always be located. Any thoughts?????

Actually Sharon I think it is a good idea and would consider it if it were cheaper. Quite a few companies offer the service and I have linked one for everyone to look at.

Company Offers Microchips To Track Children (http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=357)

[Jayelles]

Does anyone have an idea why the last person at that table, IIRC, Ms Webster, left her purse at the bar and went to the apt where everyone was and then returned to the bar to retrieve those items? Your on vacation so you have your identification, your money, and your camera with vacation pictures and walk out of sight if those valuable items? Is this a cultural difference to to just leave your personal item and come back for them?

I can only speak from my own personal experience here, but the Med package holiday is a fairly standard part of life for many Brits and there's a kind of standard behaviour with regard to them. I know my own routines are typical and are in fact "learned" from friends and family.

First of all, I have a large holiday bag in which I store things like electrical items (travel kettle, travel hairdryer etc), insect kit, sun creams, bum bag (fanny pack?). Then I have certain items which I only ever use on a foreign vacation such as swimsuit, sarong, flip-flops (bear in mind out climate does not lend itself to using these items and they tend to be kept only for Med vacations). I also have certain vacation clothes like sun dresses, shorts and tops and these get packed away from vacation to vacation. So basically - there's a suitcase full of stuff which only gets used on beach vacations and this includes strappy shoes and handbags (purse). This is the important bit in addressing your question. We wouldn't typically use our normal handbag on vacation - it would be something light, maybe fabric or canvas - quite probably cheap and cheerful where my normal handbag at home would be a good leather one. I don't even take my normal handbag on vacation with me - or my money purse. They are too bulky to carry around in the sun.

Then - at the resort, you would typically put your valuables in the room safe and only carry around a little cash in this little handbag with maybe a small tube of sun cream and a lipstick. I don't know about Portugal, but in some countries, the hotel takes your passport from you on arrival and you get it back when you are departing. In Spain/Majorca, they take it from you and give it back to you the following day.

You might have a camera but bear in mind that these kinds of holidays are not really for sight-seeing but rather to escape the British weather and relax for a week in the sunshine - so not everyone would carry a camera around with them all the time anyway.

My guess would be that Diane Webster didn't have anything of value in her handbag and that when Kate McCann raised the alarm, it wasn't something she would have instinctively kept with her.

I don't know anyone who carries their travellers cheques and passport around with them on vacation. That would be considered foolish.

[Jayelles]

I think it is less a cultural issue than a personal choice which the parents made.
The left the patio door open - what exactly is a patio door? Does this mean mean anyone could have entered the (unlocked?) room where the children were sleeping?

jmo

Patio doors are sliding doors which lead to a patio. They are basically big sliding windows.

As I understand it, these doors were not literally left "open" but rather were unlocked. If you look at the photos of the apartment which are all over the web, you'll see that the patio faced the pool area where the bar and restaurant are located and would be visible to the guests who were sitting there.

I don't think anyone is suggesting the intruder entered by the patio door. The consensus seems to be that he entered by the rear window which was sheltered by an outer wall (which created a back yard effect). Then there is an inner wall behind the apartment which creates a sort of window well effect and would allow anyone crouching down to hide from passers by.

[Jayelles]

I believe the British Royal Family are micro-chipped.

[Eagle1]

Please, let's stop short of implanting anything! I believe it was just yesterday when there was a show on about microchips in animals causing a cancer risk. I don't have any animals right now so I did not really watch. "A hint to the sufficient is wise," someone I once knew used to say.

But "It's the principle of the thing," not the particular set of parents, that we need to emphasize for young future parents, and to urge Portugal and other countries to enact some overdue laws. It's a Christian principle that parents are responsible for their childrens' safety beyond a shadow of a doubt. We're not doing anything wrong. In fact, those who claim we've made mistakes just as bad are insulting us. It does make one angry if you allow yourself to think about it, that this group of "friends" doing this were all supposed to be doctors, would probably be just as negligent with us if we were their patients. I wonder how many they may have lost so far, and if they've been in practice very long, acting alone or with partners, etc. Just looking for Truth isn't un-Christian un-necessary judging.

To whoever was wondering if I ever turn off my signature, instead of you trying to help find Maddie, most would probably ignore such a question. But you must be a new person unsure how to make an entrance. Be more specific, like everyone else, if you want to comment about something I posted !

[LindaA]

I can only speak from my own personal experience here, but the Med package holiday is a fairly standard part of life for many Brits and there's a kind of standard behaviour with regard to them. I know my own routines are typical and are in fact "learned" from friends and family.

First of all, I have a large holiday bag in which I store things like electrical items (travel kettle, travel hairdryer etc), insect kit, sun creams, bum bag (fanny pack?). Then I have certain items which I only ever use on a foreign vacation such as swimsuit, sarong, flip-flops (bear in mind out climate does not lend itself to using these items and they tend to be kept only for Med vacations). I also have certain vacation clothes like sun dresses, shorts and tops and these get packed away from vacation to vacation. So basically - there's a suitcase full of stuff which only gets used on beach vacations and this includes strappy shoes and handbags (purse). This is the important bit in addressing your question. We wouldn't typically use our normal handbag on vacation - it would be something light, maybe fabric or canvas - quite probably cheap and cheerful where my normal handbag at home would be a good leather one. I don't even take my normal handbag on vacation with me - or my money purse. They are too bulky to carry around in the sun.

Then - at the resort, you would typically put your valuables in the room safe and only carry around a little cash in this little handbag with maybe a small tube of sun cream and a lipstick. I don't know about Portugal, but in some countries, the hotel takes your passport from you on arrival and you get it back when you are departing. In Spain/Majorca, they take it from you and give it back to you the following day.

You might have a camera but bear in mind that these kinds of holidays are not really for sight-seeing but rather to escape the British weather and relax for a week in the sunshine - so not everyone would carry a camera around with them all the time anyway.

My guess would be that Diane Webster didn't have anything of value in her handbag and that when Kate McCann raised the alarm, it wasn't something she would have instinctively kept with her.

I don't know anyone who carries their travellers cheques and passport around with them on vacation. That would be considered foolish.

While I agree with most of this, I carry my passport with me at all times when traveling in foreign countries, but not in a purse. Just going a few steps to dinner, I'd probably have only a compact and a lipstick and a room key in my bag. Most cameras are tiny enough to fit in a small bag as well. That being said, I'm sure if someone I knew was yelling for help, I'd probably just as likely leave it where it was and run to see what was going on and what I could do as I would rememberto take it with me.

[andU]

Very good comments, everyone! I have nothing to add except: IMO, I would never use a microchip on a human (Revelations & the Number). But, to each his/her own. I understand the reasoning for the thought and I embrace anyone who feels it necessary to safeguard their loved ones in such a way. It is a sad fact that evil exists everywhere. Evil works never takes a vacation.

[Jayelles]

Here's an interesting article written by someone who as at the Ocean Club apartments around the same time as the McCanns:-

http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/2007/05/my_experience_o.html

[Athena]

Precisely. What's done is done and no-one is hurting more over it than the McCanns themselves.

ITA Jay. You were very clear in pointing out cultural differences and as a result most backed down (including me) from those claims. Once I became aware of that it is a moot issue and also believe the McCanns immensely regret it. Hindsight is 20/20. :rose: JMO

[Athena]

Here's an interesting article written by someone who as at the Ocean Club apartments around the same time as the McCanns:-

http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/2007/05/my_experience_o.html

Thanks Jay. It does just confirm what you have said before.
From your link:


I can imagine the McCanns’ dilemma. The ‘dining out club’ was more than a five-minute walk from where the McCanns stayed along cobbled streets or a winding pedestrian path through the apartments. It’s not far - it worked brilliantly for us on most nights - but it would have felt much further if you had to ferry thee children there and back (and hope they were still asleep after doing so). Plus parents were required to wait until children under two, which includes the McCanns’ twins, were asleep. We talked to parents who said this was enough to put them off the option.

The McCanns opted instead to eat 40-50m from their apartment, not much more than a pool’s width away. They hoped it would be just close enough to hear a crying baby but with bar music playing and restaurant hubbub, it wasn’t close enough to hear what happened to Madeleine that night.

I can't imagine what they're going through now. I, along with millions others, only hope they can find her soon and safe.

[cat840]

I believe the British Royal Family are micro-chipped.

In another context that statement would be just hilarious :)

Myself I woudn't mind an encyclopedia chip or maybe a good tip calculator.

[cat840]

I think the media are getting worse and worse in the way they report things like this.

Yes, it sure is hard to filter the good from the bad.


Alot of the infomation is from apparent leaks and rumors, which will not benifit maddie, at the end of the day they need to find her (dead or alive).

But we must not forget, generally the media helps in the end with regard to abduction cases.

"While at times the media seems to "get in the way," in the end they are much more likely to have a positive effect on the investigation (31% of cases) than a negative one (6% of cases). In short, the media are more likely to bring witnesses forward than to aid the killer in his escape. The media had no effect at all in 63% of the investigations."

Data from US but I think it is applicable for this case also.
source (http://www.kidsearchnetwork.org/research-statistics.html)

[Pelicanette]

Yes, doctors can do terrible things. But as with any other murder, the doctor has to have the time, the opportunity and the motive. The timeframe is very problematic in the McCann case because time to kill, clean up, cover up, enlist the help of friends, hide the body, etc., takes a lot of UNINTERRUPTED time. I do not see where the parents and their friends had that. There is ample proof that they were going back and forth from the table during the most critical portion of the timeframe.

Secondly, the opportunity to do any of the things described by their detractors is also problematic. If Madeleine died of an accident, such as fall, it would most likely have happened when her parents were not around, which means while they were at the restaurant, and that compresses the timeframe even more.

If one of the McCanns killed her in a fit of anger by accident, that would result in extreme remorse and anguish on the part of both parents, rendering them unable, IMO, to go back and forth to the table and cheerfully drink and eat and talk with their friends. Even OJ was upset and shaken and sweating profusely after he murdered Ron and Nicole and went to the dance performance. Several witnesses described him as not himself and unusually quiet and anti-social. Does anyone really think the parents, one or both, could witness the death of their child by an accident or over-discipline and simply go about their socializing as if nothing had happened?

How do you persuade a doctor or two doctors to help you cover up a death in a foreign country? Those doctors would have a lot to lose in terms of money, career, family, reputation. Most people who think they are guilty admit that they had to have help to do what was done. Who would be so ready, willing and able to help? I would not help even the best of friends in that situation. Would you?

If planned, what would the motive be? The parents wanted children enough to have IVF. They stuck with Madeleine through the first year when she was extremely colicky and difficult. They went on to have twins, in spite of that experience with a colicky baby. I have a friend who had a colicky baby who cried for months and she vowed never to have another!

The McCanns do not fit the profile of parents who kill, and it is not because they are well-off or attractive. The Ramseys were far richer and just as attractive and I suspected them. But Patsy was under tremendous pressure from her cancer struggles, her desire for perfection, being away from the friends and family in the south, and Patsy spending so much time with JonBenet, etc. I see no pressures on the McCanns. They seem to have had a good life, plenty of love and support from family and friends, help in the form of a nanny, etc. And they were on holiday, which is a relaxing time, not a stressful one.

Even those who suspect them cannot agree, it seems, on what happened or why it happened or how they could possibly pull off a cover up. By far, the most logical conclusion is that an abductor had been watching them for days and was aware of their comings and goings and took advantage of an opportunity to snatch Madeleine.

I also think the police botched the case almost immediately. You can disapprove of what the McCanns did, but my God, they are paying a terrible price. Neither country has prosecuted them for child abuse or neglect.

I just do not think they are guilty of murder, or of covering up an accidental death. I think Madeleine may still be alive.

[elvislives]

ITA Jay. You were very clear in pointing out cultural differences and as a result most backed down (including me) from those claims. Once I became aware of that it is a moot issue and also believe the McCanns immensely regret it. Hindsight is 20/20. :rose: JMO

Excellent post, Athena. I think as Americans we often take for granted that we are inundated with constant reminders of the dangers of child predators. I believe almost every state has enacted 'Three Strikes Laws" (Polly's Law) after the horrible murder of Polly Klass. We also have 'Adam Alerts', 'Jessica's Law', 'Amber Alerts', etc and of course the highly vocal John Walsh all to constantly remind us of these dangerous predators. We have a National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, groups called 'Parent's of Murdered Children', missing children pictured on our milk cartons, and hardly a week goes by without another horrid news story of an abducted or murdered child. But other countries are different, especially those with low crime rates.

I became aware of these cultural differences a few years ago. I live in a town where many Asian and Europeans come to vacation. A few years ago, a British woman was issued a citation for leaving her sleeping baby in a stroller outside a clothing store where she was shopping. Locals here thought this was horribly negligent, but after she was interviewed on the local news, I was left with a much different perspective. This woman was clearly educated, articulate and a loving mother. But she came from a rural part of England where the crime rate is very low. She explained that in her town, it would be considered quite rude and inconsiderate to other shoppers to push your pram into a small clothing store. SHe explained that this was done all the time where she lived and no one even considered it dangerous. This of course sounds naive to many Americans, but again it is a genuine cultural differnce.

There was another similar situation with a Japanese tourist. Again the crime rate in Japan is quite low so child abduction was the furthest thing from this woman's mind.

No doubt Brits are now acutely aware of these dangers after the abduction of Madeliene McCann and I'm sure these cultural practices will change. Just like they changed in the US over the past several decades as all of these hideous crimes against children came to light.

Just think of how negligent our own parents were compared to todays standards. I joke with my parents all the time that they would be in jail for the negligent manner in which they raised us: they didn't use car seats, didn't even always use seatbelts, allowed us to sell girl scout cookies door to door, ride bikes without helmets, and play outside unsupervised. As you say, hindsite is always 20/20.

[andU]

Here's an interesting article written by someone who as at the Ocean Club apartments around the same time as the McCanns:-

http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/2007/05/my_experience_o.html


Interesting article, giving more light and understanding to the situation. Thanks, Jayelles! You are ever the fact finding sleuth poster!

[cat840]

There is ample proof that they were going back and forth from the table during the most critical portion of the timeframe.


Which is the most critical portion of the timeframe?

[Jayelles]

This is just an "interest" point regarding one of Odette's updates. Apparently, the McCann's legal benefactor is the owner of the Everest double glazing company.

This is one of the longest established double glazing companies in the UK and their early advertising slogan was "Fit the best, Everest".

Now, I don't know about anyone else, but one of my bugbears is cold calling salesmen whether it be at the door or on the telephone. They usually call at teatime too when I'm either in the middle of making or eating my evening meal.

Anyway, I have never had a cold call from Everest. However, several years ago, I looked out of my window to see a man scrutinising my house. I opened the window and politely enquired if I could help him and he turned out to be an Everest salesman. He explained that he didn't like to bother people to ask them if they had double glazing or a conservatory when he could simply look and see for himself! I just wished more companies would do this instead of disturbing people in the middle of their evening meal. I don't know whether this is a company policy or whether it was simply the police of this individual salesman.

[dallasvic]

I thought this was very interesting: oddette posted it on updates :


Police here have given up looking for poor Maddie

EXCLUSIVE THE SEARCH FOR MADELEINE DAY 143

By Dai Davies Former Metropolitan Police Detective Superintendent 23/09/2007


In my 38 years of police and private security work all over the world I've never known anything like the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
To the outsider it has all the ingredients of a classic Agatha Christie-style whodunit - but in reality it's far more complex and heartbreaking, because it involves the disappearance of a little girl.
I spent a week in Praia da Luz where Madeleine went missing, "walking the shop floor" as I call it, going over the available evidence and unearthing some startling new information about the case. And in what will surely be another hammer-blow to the McCanns' hopes of finding their little daughter, I've discovered from lengthy talks with my barrister contact that Portuguese investigators have unofficially abandoned the hunt for Madeleine's alleged abductor.

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/09/23/police-here-have-given-up-looking-for-poor-maddie-98487-19833576/

[Eagle1]

Very good comments, everyone! I have nothing to add except: IMO, I would never use a microchip on a human (Revelations & the Number).
........... I understand the reasoning for the thought and I embrace anyone who feels it necessary to safeguard their loved ones in such a way. It is a sad fact that evil exists everywhere. Evil works never takes a vacation.

Not only that, but on TV the other day, about pet owners having microchips injected-implanted, they were saying it might cause CANCER!

(Re "the beast" person who's to eventually be revealed and come to his end,
he's surely against the privacy principle, because ancient Ezekiel says nobody can have any secrets from him. In the whole world? Sorry, I didn't jot down chapter and verse, was just reading because of my own curiosity and didn't know I'd be telling anyone else. He'd be a/k/a "the accuser of the brethren", "who opposes" the believers, covertly (?) acts like he's God, and one of the messengers of light, 2nd Corinthians 11.

[Eagle1]

From another forum, http://crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?n=35436#post35...

Two DIFFERENT people informed police as soon as they heard Maddie was missing, to state they'd seen a little girl with a man at a gas station, resembling pics of Maddie, and heard her ask the man if she would see Mommy soon. This was in Morocco, Marrahech, in N. Africa and the article from some Sunday Mirror says Kate had a gut feeling, an "instinct", earlier that Maddie had been taken to Africa. Why? The article doesn't say, as far as I can tell, why she thought Maddie had been taken to Africa. There's a very real thing called Womens' Intuition. Is that all this was?

One of the callers said Interpol only phoned her after the media got hold of this, and there's been no followup that she knows of, although they told her the info was very important. ("These things take time"?) The other caller was a man, who said the little girl was "lost-looking".

She was with a rather small man, dark haired, about 5'11". Is she maybe still alive? "Told ya." I've printed out the post, better read it again, think they said the gas station's surveillance tape had been erased when LE went there to investigate. Reused, I guess they mean. It's also a relief to me that the little girl asked about seeing Mommy, so she wasn't entirely just a Daddy's girl, knew Mommy's the one that mostly takes care of you and makes you feel safe. It it was Maddie, she and Kate evidently weren't estranged.

[docwho3]

. . .Call me crazy, but I have often thought of the idea of micro chipping our kids. Well they do it for pets, and it means that the recipient can always be located. Any thoughts????? Sorry I took so long to respond to your nice post. I post on other forums as well and have to do stuff and pay bills so sometimes it takes awhile for me to respond.

My thoughts on microchips being implanted is that it might lead to mutilation of kidnap victims as perps try to find and remove the chips in order to escape detection.

Having some sort of "always on" GPS devices in the clothing and/or cell phones of people is good. Even if perps would eventually begin making people give up their clothing and cell phones it makes them take that extra time consuming step and in any crime anything that slows up a criminal and adds even a little complexity to their crime routine is a good thing. Mistakes will happen and more people will be caught as a result.

It would be nice if such items came with easily downloadable and installable software for your PC that would enable you to track your own GPS devices in real time so if anything happened to you L.E. could easily have the needed software at hand to help locate you (or your kids.) Otherwise by the time they get legal papers to force a phone company to look in the system and find you, you could be dead and gone.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[docwho3]

Eagle1,sorry, I have not responded to your post about the syringe not having prints yet but I wanted to post and let you know I have not been ignoring the issue. I have been taking some time and thinking about it. I need to let some case points percolate in my mind for awhile before responding.

Knowing what, if any, substance had actually been found in the syringe might also prove helpful. So far all I have seen are news reports leaked by L.E. and which leaks I think were designed to put psych pressure on the parents to get them to break down. It would be nice to indeed know more facts about what, if anything, had been in that syringe and to perhaps have an indication if that substance was intended for the children or the parents.

[Eagle1]

Sorry I took so long to respond to your nice post. I post on other forums as well and have to do stuff and pay bills so sometimes it takes awhile for me to respond.

My thoughts on microchips being implanted is that it might lead to mutilation of kidnap victims as perps try to find and remove the chips in order to escape detection.

Having some sort of "always on" GPS devices in the clothing and/or cell phones of people is good. Even if perps would eventually begin making people give up their clothing and cell phones it makes them take that extra time consuming step and in any crime anything that slows up a criminal and adds even a little complexity to their crime routine is a good thing. Mistakes will happen and more people will be caught as a result.

It would be nice if such items came with easily downloadable and installable software for your PC that would enable you to track your own GPS devices in real time so if anything happened to you L.E. could easily have the needed software at hand to help locate you (or your kids.) Otherwise by the time they get legal papers to force a phone company to look in the system and find you, you could be dead and gone.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Glad you took the time to think about it all. These are some very good ideas. And as I've already posted before reading you, there may be a question about these things causing cancer.

About the syringe. Someone said maybe it was even still in its original package.

[Eagle1]

Probably there will be some interesting reading on Monday at the UK's Sunday Mirror forums.

Meanwhile, I noticed a post by Coldwater in the thread about "Something to Hide Under the Floor" which has a large picture of the car "boot". Looks like a station wagon to me, has the cover you can pull across the whole trunk area.

The Morocco sightings were early in the case, 5th or 6th day, so I'm probably wrong about her being there, don't mind admitting.

"Why didn't the McCanns go there?" was a frequent question at the forum. Seems they were on some world tour? Went later. Had they been there before, reason Kate had an "instinct" that Maddie might be there? And it turns out that the man witness who reported seeing Maddie at the gas station, already knew Gerry's brother. Don't ask me what that means. That he had extra reason to be interested and watching for her?

Someone in one of the threads points out that their PR team seems to want the world to blame the Police, the Pope, Bush, or a two-cities priest for the disappearance. The priest was only supposed to be there 3 days a wk when people said he was missing 4 days.

[Sharon]

Sorry I took so long to respond to your nice post. I post on other forums as well and have to do stuff and pay bills so sometimes it takes awhile for me to respond.

My thoughts on microchips being implanted is that it might lead to mutilation of kidnap victims as perps try to find and remove the chips in order to escape detection.

Having some sort of "always on" GPS devices in the clothing and/or cell phones of people is good. Even if perps would eventually begin making people give up their clothing and cell phones it makes them take that extra time consuming step and in any crime anything that slows up a criminal and adds even a little complexity to their crime routine is a good thing. Mistakes will happen and more people will be caught as a result.

It would be nice if such items came with easily downloadable and installable software for your PC that would enable you to track your own GPS devices in real time so if anything happened to you L.E. could easily have the needed software at hand to help locate you (or your kids.) Otherwise by the time they get legal papers to force a phone company to look in the system and find you, you could be dead and gone.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Many thanks for the feed back. I thought about the perps maybe trying to get the device out, but then wondered if they would even know it is in there???? I think that with todays technology, it would be easily trackable even from your home computer!!!! My main concern was that is sounded like an odd thing to do.....but if it was mainstream, like any new technology, it becomes a way of life.
Implants per say are very common for medical purposes these days.

The thing holding me back from doing this to my kids is that it feels `negative`. But if it was advetised and esily available, I could be easily swayed.

When I think of all the missing children (and adults) I think it could be a good thing, used correctly.

Even where I live in Australia it is reported that 100`s of people go missing every year.

[andU]

I thought this was very interesting: oddette posted it on updates :


Police here have given up looking for poor Maddie

EXCLUSIVE THE SEARCH FOR MADELEINE DAY 143

By Dai Davies Former Metropolitan Police Detective Superintendent 23/09/2007


In my 38 years of police and private security work all over the world I've never known anything like the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
To the outsider it has all the ingredients of a classic Agatha Christie-style whodunit - but in reality it's far more complex and heartbreaking, because it involves the disappearance of a little girl.
I spent a week in Praia da Luz where Madeleine went missing, "walking the shop floor" as I call it, going over the available evidence and unearthing some startling new information about the case. And in what will surely be another hammer-blow to the McCanns' hopes of finding their little daughter, I've discovered from lengthy talks with my barrister contact that Portuguese investigators have unofficially abandoned the hunt for Madeleine's alleged abductor.

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/09/23/police-here-have-given-up-looking-for-poor-maddie-98487-19833576/

Why am I not surprised at this?

[andU]

A device with tracking capabilities would be great to use in the clothing of Alzheimer's patients. There is a lady in the small town where I reside that has been missing for months, in spite of billboards and much publicity. She just walked away while her daughter was at work (it was a first time occurance of her wandering as she had recently been diagnosed).

[Sharon]

A device with tracking capabilities would be great to use in the clothing of Alzheimer's patients. There is a lady in the small town where I reside that has been missing for months, in spite of billboards and much publicity. She just walked away while her daughter was at work (it was a first time occurance of her wandering as she had recently been diagnosed).

Yes....sorry to be O/T. This will be my last interuption to Maddie. But need to say that many alzheimers patients go missing here to. Just wonder off even the ones loved and missed, often they never turn up.

I think the implant has a lot of potential. I dont believe these things cause canser. There are already many things that are implanted medically with no problems.eg cochlear hearing aids, contraceptive devices, heart pumps etc The devices are very small.