Madeleine McCann Discussion

[rashomon]

I think it makes sense to create a separate thread for the Madeleine McCann case in view of the dramatic recent developments.
There seems to be as much chaos in the Madeleine McCann investigation as there was in the Ramsey case, which is interesting for comparison purposes.

The mother of Madeleine McCann, whose disappearance sparked a global search, was formally named as a suspect by Portuguese police Friday, Britain's Press Association news agency reported.

The time line is crucial, so if anyone knows more about it, TIA for posting it here.

The last picture taken of Madeleine was at 2.30 p.m.
Does anyone have info when exactly the McCanns arrived at the tapas bar?
If they have something to do with Madeleine's death, they must have hidden or disposed of the body between the time Maddie was last seen alive in public and their arrival at the bar.
But how could they possibly have done that, in broad daylight in a summer resort brimming with people? And then they sat down at the tapas bar with their friends, pulling off their deceptive scheme, playing the happy and carefree couple? All this sounds so incredible - I almost got sick to my stomach when hearing that the mother has been declared a suspect.

I still hope and pray that this case does NOT turn into another Ramsey case!!

[Athena]

There is a thread about Madeleine McCann:

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=8960785#post8960785

[Athena]

I'm not sure how I'd act if I were in PR and my daughter was missing and I as accused of her abduction/murder. I don't blame the Dad for storming off of the set, I'd do the same thing.

It's odd, but I just don't think the parents did this, yet, I'm finding myself blaming them for leaving their little girl alone.

I agree TD. I just posted something similar on the JBR board:

I do know that I am one of the critics as far as them leaving their children alone while they dined. I never left my children alone; not for a second unless I knew they were well-supervised. Whether they had anything to do with Madeleine's death remains to be seen but I don't take back my criticism. As a concerned parent, you just don't leave room for opportunity; it only takes a second........

The fact that one of the couples saw a man carrying a child an hour before the McCanns left the restaurant may help here if true and if it were Madeleine. JMO

[Solace]

I think it makes sense to create a separate thread for the Madeleine McCann case in view of the dramatic recent developments.
There seems to be as much chaos in the Madeleine McCann investigation as there was in the Ramsey case, which is interesting for comparison purposes.

The mother of Madeleine McCann, whose disappearance sparked a global search, was formally named as a suspect by Portuguese police Friday, Britain's Press Association news agency reported.

The time line is crucial, so if anyone knows more about it, TIA for posting it here.

The last picture taken of Madeleine was at 2.30 p.m.
Does anyone have info when exactly the McCanns arrived at the tapas bar?
If they have something to do with Madeleine's death, they must have hidden or disposed of the body between the time Maddie was last seen alive in public and their arrival at the bar.
But how could they possibly have done that, in broad daylight in a summer resort brimming with people? And then they sat down at the tapas bar with their friends, pulling off their deceptive scheme, playing the happy and carefree couple? All this sounds so incredible - I almost got sick to my stomach when hearing that the mother has been declared a suspect.

I still hope and pray that this case does NOT turn into another Ramsey case!!

Hey Rash,

I have a hard time believing that they are involved; but I do not have a hard time saying that they are responsible for the fact that she is missing. They left her and her twin siblings unattended while they went out to dinner. So at the very least they should be charged with reckless something. If she should be found dead (not by their hands), they should be charged with reckless homicide. That is the short of it..

We are supposed to take care of the children not leave them alone because we feel like going out to dinner. We are not talking about 9 and 10 year olds. They were 3 and 2. It is ludicrous to leave them alone.

The only one suffering the most here is the little girl because she was left alone.

mo

[Athena]

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/signs133.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

In pictures, the 120 metre route to check on Madeleine

Last updated at 12:21pm on 10th August 2007

These new photographs show the route the McCanns had to take to check on Madeleine on the night she disappeared.

It takes about a minute to walk from the tapas bar at the Ocean Club, where Kate and Gerry McCann were dining with friends, to the apartment from which their daughter vanished almost 100 days ago.

The pictures show the McCanns had to walk about 120 metres to get to the apartment where their children slept. .....

continued: In pictures, the 120 metre route to check on Madeleine

Click on "enlarge" for the top photo.

Thanks Odette. I've looked at this before and this is NOT even close to making me believe these children could be watched from where the parents dined. I'm not one to be the type to readily pass judgement .... but as a parent, this is totally unacceptable. JMO

[Athena]

Hey Rash,

I have a hard time believing that they are involved; but I do not have a hard time saying that they are responsible for the fact that she is missing. They left her and her twin siblings unattended while they went out to dinner. So at the very least they should be charged with reckless something. If she should be found dead (not by their hands), they should be charged with reckless homicide. That is the short of it..

We are supposed to take care of the children not leave them alone because we feel like going out to dinner. We are not talking about 9 and 10 year olds. They were 3 and 2. It is ludicrous to leave them alone.

The only one suffering the most here is the little girl because she was left alone.

mo

Solace -- I totally agree with you.

I hope you guys do check out the thread I linked to.

[Athena]

I hope noone minds but I copied all of the McCann posts into this thread.

I see that little Madeleine McCann's parents are "under the umbrella of suspicion" now that the results of the forensics tests have been returned to the Portuguese LE. it will be interesting to see how this now plays out.

For those who don't have access to this case, the parents of this 4-year-old who disappeared from her parents' hotel suite in a resort area of Portugal last May, are both physicians. The child was sleeping between her younger twin siblings while the parents dined in a restaurant within sight of the room. The parents returned periodically to check on the childen, and the last time they checked Madeleiine was missing, but the twins were still sleeping. She has not been seen since.

The family was on vacation from Leicestershire, England. The parents have returned to Portugal for questioning.

We'll see how this compares to the Ramsey case as time passes. Presumably, the parents are both educated and fairly well-off financially as were the Ramseys. Jay, what are you thinking about this case at this time?

I haven't kept up with this case....but I was always concerned that educated parents would leave their small child while dining, even if they were nearby...it's just too dangerous a thing to do anymore, with pedophiles and crazies out there! JMHO Hope they find the little girl! JMHO

I just happened to be vacationing in England when this crime occurred in early May and there was a lot of discussion about athe parents leaving the children while they were dining. They were heavily criticised on one hand, but lots of people took up for them as well. I don't know what to think. The resort was supposed to be a very safe, family-oriented place.

At one time they did have a suspect, a man who knew the family and worked as an interpreter. But he no longer seems to be of interest to police. The DNA tests on hair, and a spot pf blood found in the apartment have finally come back and CNN is reporting that the parents are now mo longer just witnesses. They have lawyered-up.

I hope this doesn't prove to be another case that cannot be solved, like the Ramsey case, and I am watching for parallels in the two cases. So far the only one is that neither set of parents seems to be the "type" and both are well-educated.

I have a really bad feeling about this case. I hope my feeling is wrong this time.

Me, too, andU! How old are these parents? jmho They seemed to have cooperated with LE in an attempt to find their daughter...and the Ramseys were accused of not cooperating after the discovery of JB's murder, which I think they were grieving and couldn't reconcile in their minds how someone could enter their own home and garrote their child to death! As I said, I know nothing about these other parents...but really don't think anyone educated, no matter where you are ...leaving their children unattended...as I said, in this day and age, we all know there can be nuts even in a resort area! JMHO I do hope the parents are not involved in M's disappearance!
I believe the parents are in their mid to late 30's.
JMHO
__________________
It's not looking good, and the parallels are growing as well. CNN.com is reporting that the mother has been accused of accidentally killing Maddy and disposing of her body. Seems they found a spot of the little girl's blood in a car the family rented 25 days after the child disappeared. That raises a lot of questions.

I guess this thread needs to be moved somewhere else, as it doesn't really fit here.

If the McCanns were involved in their daughter's death, then they sure were far better 'actors' on the public stage than the Ramseys.
Kate was questioned for 11 hours. If was that long, LE probably have additional evidence besides the blood in the car. But this case raises a thousand questions indeeed, so maybe we should create a separate thread for it.
But I hope and pray this does NOT turn into another Ramseys case!!

Not looking good for these parents as of now anyway. One thing I have to give the police in this case credit for is that they investigated leads received and WAITED for the forensic evidence tests to come back in this case before accusing the parents. The parents were at least given the benefit of the doubt and the presumption of innocence; not so in the Ramsey case.

I do know that I was one of the critics as far as them leaving their children alone while they dined. I never left my children alone; not for a second unless I knew they were well-supervised. Whether they had anything to do with Madeleine's death remains to be seen but I don't take back my criticism. As a concerned parent, you just don't leave room for opportunity; it only takes a second........ JMO

[TuscanDreams]

Ok, I get that parents kill their kids, even on accident. But, these were Doctors! If Kate killed Maddie, even during an accident, why didn't she at least try to save her life?

As things unfold, I'm slowly starting to consider that the mom could have done this act, but I want to hear more evidence before I'm convinced.

As for the blood on the wall, unless there were blood spatters found on Kate's clothing, it doesn't really link her to the crime.

I will say that I'm glad the Brits got involved in this case, otherwise it may never be solved.

Poor Maddie. Where is she? :rose:

If Kate killed her and Gerry helped rid of her little body, she should have turned up by now.

I have considered this possiblity: Maddie was dead before they left for the Tapas bar and that left them plenty of time to dispose of her. And, maybe Kate stayed on the island, IF she killed her, because she didn't want her daughter to not be found.

[rashomon]

Thanks Athena for copying it over here, and also for the link to the Madeleine board on CL.

[Mishell1383]

A thought... well question... Is it possible for the police to lie regarding blood and its location etc. to try and get a suspect or so-called witness to crack and admit something? Would they go as far as publicly announcing it, or would it be when they are interrogating, privately in a room?
Bump in case it was missed, really wondering this.

[rashomon]

Solace -- I totally agree with you.

I couldn't agree more, Solace and Athena. Leaving one's three small children alone in their room every night, not even within seeing and hearing range, not even closing the doors, is neglect, plain and simple.
I'm from Europe (Germany) and have been at this type of holiday resorts quite a few times. Many of them are not much guarded and visitors have free access - it's almost like in a hotel. While it is true that the crime and abduction rate in western Europe is low, crimes against children do happen, and the parents' irresponsible behavior was virtually inviting disaster.
Not only is kidnapping a danger - a child can wake up at any time during the night, panic because Mommy and Daddy aren't there, get up and wander around.

The Madeleine case is a nightmare. I just heard in the news that the police allegedly offered the mother a plea bargain if she admitted she accidentally killed Madeleine. There were rumors that the McCanns may have given their children sedatives so they could go out and party, but suppose Madeleine died from an accidental overdose, this would not explain her blood found.

jmo

[TuscanDreams]

Originally Posted by Mishell1383
A thought... well question... Is it possible for the police to lie regarding blood and its location etc. to try and get a suspect or so-called witness to crack and admit something? Would they go as far as publicly announcing it, or would it be when they are interrogating, privately in a room?

Bump in case it was missed, really wondering this.

Deception and Trickery is legal in LE in America, it's been tested numerous times in the Supreme Court and was affirmed. I don't know about Port. though, but they are similar to the Brits in law, aren't they?

[rashomon]

I agree TD. I just posted something similar on the JBR board:

I do know that I am one of the critics as far as them leaving their children alone while they dined. I never left my children alone; not for a second unless I knew they were well-supervised. Whether they had anything to do with Madeleine's death remains to be seen but I don't take back my criticism. As a concerned parent, you just don't leave room for opportunity; it only takes a second........

We never left our daughter alone either unsupervised.

Leaving one's three small children alone in their room every night, not even within seeing and hearing range, not even closing the doors, is neglect, plain and simple.
I'm from Europe (Germany) and have been at this type of holiday resorts quite a few times. Many of them are not much guarded and visitors have free access - it's almost like in a hotel. While it is true that the crime and abduction rate in western Europe is low, crimes against children do happen, and the parents' irresponsible behavior was virtually inviting disaster.
Not only is kidnapping a danger - a child can wake up at any time during the night, panic because Mommy and Daddy aren't there, get up and wander around.

The Madeleine case is a nightmare. I just heard in the news that the police allegedly offered the mother a plea bargain if she admitted she accidentally killed Madeleine. There were rumors that the McCanns may have given their children sedatives so they could go out and party, but suppose Madeleine died from an accidental overdose, imo this would not explain her blood found.

jmo

[odette]

Good thoughts TD. Reading the latest DAILY MAIL article, I am starting to wonder just what evidence they do have. It's known that telephone calls and emails between the McCann's and "friend's" back in Britain were 'tapped'.

The McCanns have been under round-the-clock surveillance by Portuguese police for more than a month, it emerged.

The covert operation was launched after suspicions grew that they could be linked to the disappearance of their daughter.

Intimate conversations between the pair have been secretly listened to and their movements tracked by investigators.

A British source added: "After a slow start, the police inquiry is a lot more focused and professional.

"There is a great deal of co-operation between the Portuguese and British police. There are likely to be further dramatic developments in the next few days.

"A lot of people will be surprised by what else is going to come out."

Dozens of British detectives have been drafted into the inquiry in recent weeks. Sources said 55 officers were now working on the case.

It is believed they are carrying out urgent inquiries on behalf of the Portuguese police into the background of the McCanns.

Investigators want to learn more about the state of their marriage, their relationship and whether either of them are prone to losing their temper.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480630&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

[rashomon]

Deception and Trickery is legal in LE in America, it's been tested numerous times in the Supreme Court and was affirmed. I don't know about Port. though, but they are similar to the Brits in law, aren't they?
I don't know about Portuguese law either, but it seems in most countries the police are allowed to lie under certain circumstances in an investigation.
But I don't think the police would dare to lie to Kate McCann in such a highly publicized case with all the media watching. I don't think they would have questioned her for eleven hours if the didn't actually have any possibly incriminating forensic evidence against her.

But suppose the McCanns have something to do with Madeleine's death, then how on earth could they have disposed of the body in the short time span between when Maddie was last seen alive and their arrival at the tapas bar? The short time span makes this almost impossible imo. Also, they would have have had to move the body from the apartment when it was still daylight, in a summer resort brimming with people.
On the other hand, if they hid the body until some days later, where on earth could they have hidden it? After the kidnapping alert, wouldn't a thorough search have been done in the whole resort, especially in their apartment?
And how could they, being under constant media surveilance, have disposed of the body in the days after Maddie's disppearance? My head is spinning!

Does anyone know at what time exactly Maddie was last seen alive in public?

jmo

[Athena]

I read that too. It does sound like the mom is going to be charged and her husband is vehemently denying that she had anything to do with it.



Kate McCann accused of killing Madeleine

By Caroline Gammell in Portimao and Gordon Rayner
Last Updated: 12:16am BST 08/09/2007

Kate McCann has been warned she could be charged with the "accidental" killing of her daughter Madeleine after Portuguese police directly asked her whether she was behind the toddler's disappearance.
# The claims and the case for the defence
# Shocked response from friends and family
# Full coverage: The search for Madeleine McCann

In an extraordinary twist, Mrs McCann's family said detectives now believed she caused the four-year-old's death in their holiday apartment, then hid the body before returning a month later to dispose of it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/07/nmaddy907.xml

The husband is supporting his wife:

http://www.findmadeleine.com

Rash -- have you seen where the parents were dining and where the children were. I'm sorry but this is totally unacceptable. Click on the map to enlarge. There is no way they could see the children's room from where they were. What were they thinking? I'm not jumping to any conclusions at this point on whether the parents had anything to do with her disappearance; I really hope not but I'm sorry but this is totally unacceptable.

http://tinyurl.com/3ayvwp

[odette]

I don't know about Portuguese law either, but it seems in most countries the police are allowed to lie under certain circumstances in an investigation.
But I don't think the police would dare to lie to Kate McCann in such a highly publicized case with all the media watching. I don't think they would have questioned her for eleven hours if the didn't actually have any possibly incriminating forensic evidence against her.

But suppose the McCanns have something to do with Madeleine's death, then how on earth could they have disposed of the body in the short time span between when Maddie was last seen alive and their arrival at the tapas bar? The short time span makes this almost impossible imo. Also, they would have have had to move the body from the apartment when it was still daylight, in a summer resort brimming with people.
On the other hand, if they hid the body until some days later, where on earth could they have hidden it? After the kidnapping alert, wouldn't a thorough search have been done in the whole resort, especially in their apartment?
And how could they, being under constant media surveilance, have disposed of the body in the days after Maddie's disppearance? My head is spinning!

Does anyone know at what time exactly Maddie was last seen alive in public?

jmo

This is an excerpt from the most recent Daily MAIL article.

It has never been established when Madeleine was last seen in public and it may even be the case that she was alone with her family from earlier than 5pm.

Madeleine was photographed at the poolside that day at 2.29pm but there is no evidence to suggest she was seen in public after that.

If a fatal accident had occurred some time that day, the McCanns could have had more than three hours to hide or move the body and to plan their actions.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480630&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

[rashomon]

Rash -- have you seen where the parents were dining and where the children were. I'm sorry but this is totally unacceptable. Click on the map to enlarge. There is no way they could see the children's room from where they were. What were they thinking? I'm not jumping to any conclusions at this point on whether the parents had anything to do with her disappearance; I really hope not but I'm sorry but this is totally unacceptable.

http://tinyurl.com/3ayvwp
Athena, yes I have seen it and ITA - it is totally unacceptable. What were they thinking, leaving their three small children alone at night in a room so far away from where they were dining? I'm not jumping to conclusions either, but this was totally irresponsible on their part.

jmo

[elvislives]

This case is now ALL OVER the US news. They are reporting that both parents have been officially classified as suspects.

There was one report that Maddie's parents intentionally drugged the children so that "they could go out and party". I have a hard time believing that for a number of reasons. For one thing, both of these parents are physicians and EVEN IF they made the horrid decision to sedate their children, they would surely know the appropriate dosages of meds to give. There was a case in Chicago a few years ago where the babysitter gave 3 children sleeping pills and accidentally OD'ed the infant. Certainly physicians would or should know how to give an appropriate dose based on the pts weight. So that theory just isnt adding up for me.

Also, Jay I agree with you WRT the alleged blood in the car that they rented 25 days AFTER Maddie went missing. Are they suggesting that Madeleine's parents stashed her body somewhere during that first 25 days when they were surrounded by media and police?? Why not just dump the body THEN call police? Where were they hiding the body? Something is amiss here. Things just aren;t adding up...

p.s. Hi AndU, nice to see you posting here!

[Devotion]

Sky News Video

Kate 'To Be Charged For Accidental Death'

Madeleine's Aunt, Philomena, says she understands Kate McCann will be charged with the four-year-old's 'accidental death' later today.

Gerry McCann is still considered a witness. Sky's Martin Brunt clarifies the developments with Jeremy Thompson.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1283234,.html

:shrug: Someone please explain HOW a DOCTOR accidentially kills a child?..imo

[LindaA]

For once it seems we are all in agreement. I'm also waiting to see what happens, but at the time this occurred I couldn't believe educated people would leave their small children alone in a condo sleeping or otherwise. There was quite a bit of discussion in the British media about how often they went to check on them. Reports varied from every half hour to every hour.

I also can't imagine what they did with the body for a month and how they would have been able to go back after it after all that time.

Another eerie resemblence to the Ramsey case: the mother is being criticised for whom she called when she discovered the child missing. She called the British Embassy and not LE. That doesn't seem to strange to me. I assume she didn't speak Portuguese and might have felt she wuld be needing a translator.

Anyway, thanks, Rash for starting this thread.

[Devotion]

MADDY: WE STILL DON'T KNOW
Friday September 7,2007
By Geoff Marsh

See: http://www.express.co.uk/blogs/post/147/Geoff%20Marsh/2007/09/07/18571/Maddy%3A+We+still+don%27t+know

Praying the truth will be known and justice will be served ~ FD


http://z.about.com/d/gardening/1/7/Z/A/Shahzad_Rose8.jpg

For Maddie.

:rose: I only hope, that whom ever hurt/killed this beautiful child, gets more than a "slap on the wrist"....jmo

[DigitalDreamKat]

I'm not quite sure why most people think the McCanns are innocent. I seriously believe that they know something, it's just a matter of what it is that they know.

[Luke Davis]

Deception and Trickery is legal in LE in America, it's been tested numerous times in the Supreme Court and was affirmed. I don't know about Port. though, but they are similar to the Brits in law, aren't they?I would bet a couple fingers the answer is yes.http://bestsmileys.com/cops/2.gif

[dallasvic]

How do they know it is Madelines blood in the car and in the room? I apologize if that has been answered somewhere. I am just familiarizing myself with this case. It is very perplexing. I feel terrible for these parents if they are not guilty of this. The only thing that could be worse than losing a child is being accused of being responsible for it if you were not.

Hi R,

During a search of the car and flat they lived in they found blood. It was sent off to be tested.The DNA results confirmed it was Maddie's blood.

[dallasvic]

MADDY: WE STILL DON'T KNOW
Friday September 7,2007
By Geoff Marsh

See: http://www.express.co.uk/blogs/post/147/Geoff%20Marsh/2007/09/07/18571/Maddy%3A+We+still+don%27t+know



Praying the truth will be known and justice will be served ~ FD


http://z.about.com/d/gardening/1/7/Z/A/Shahzad_Rose8.jpg

For Maddie.

Hi Everyone,

This is beautiful FD. I seen it the first thing I logged on. After a stressful morning I had to get away for awhile. It just came to be to much for me to handle with so much happening so quick. Sorry I left yall here to go threw it alone :( Right now it seems that things are stabilizing. Maddies parents are staying strong and I do not think they did this.The evidence mush not be strong enough or they would have already been arrested. IMO The police want a confession from one or both of them.
In one of my earlier post I stated that there was a reason for them being interviewed separately, so they can put them under pressure by making them think that one is blaming the other. Pressure like this can sometime lead to a false confession.
The way it sounds to me is that the evidence they received back did not lead to any suspect and the police are under pressure to find this suspect. I believe they do not have the evidence they say they have to lead them to a suspect, so they have hit a dead end. Also they have said that the man that lives in the same complex is no longer a suspect. IMO They have nothing:shrug:

[dallasvic]

I don't think they are being framed. Britian brought in their dogs and tried there best to help solve this case and with these dogs the DNA was found and sent to Britian. Britian has supported the McCann's 100% from everything I have read. DNA doesn't lie and these results are coming back from another country so who would be able to set them up? There are 2 countries working together in trying to find out what happened to Maddie and to try to find out where she is. I don't get the frame thing. JMHO
\
Hi Results,

:rose: Thank You for the reply. So many things have happened so quickly this morning I was getting :confused:. Being FRAMED does not make since to me either. At this point I am thinking they are trying to get they to confess by putting them under pressure which could cause a FALSE, but it is not working IMO:shrug:

[shill]

Hey Rash,

I have a hard time believing that they are involved; but I do not have a hard time saying that they are responsible for the fact that she is missing. They left her and her twin siblings unattended while they went out to dinner. So at the very least they should be charged with reckless something. If she should be found dead (not by their hands), they should be charged with reckless homicide. That is the short of it..

We are supposed to take care of the children not leave them alone because we feel like going out to dinner. We are not talking about 9 and 10 year olds. They were 3 and 2. It is ludicrous to leave them alone.

The only one suffering the most here is the little girl because she was left alone.

moI agree,
I believe there are laws in the USA against that. At least I remember something about it in Michigan. You couldn't leave a child home alone under the age of 12 or 14, something like that, and then they were old enough to be home alone watching younger children.

[shill]

The last picture taken of Madeleine was at 2.30 p.m.
Does anyone have info when exactly the McCanns arrived at the tapas bar?
Wasn't it around 3pm?

It doesn't matter what time they arrived at the bar, it's the proof that the photo was actually taken at 2:30 pm.

When was the last time somebody actually saw her other then the parents and why did they take a photo of her(I assume alive) just before they left for the bar ?

[chatwuann]

I agree that it was not a wise decision for the McCann's to leave their children alone while they went out at night and I bet they regret that they did and probably wouldn't do so again. But look at the other parents who had children taken from their homes. These parents thought their children were perfectly safe because they were in their home which they thought was safe. Stepanie Crowe was stabbed to death by an intruder when her parents were home reading in bed. No matter how careful you are these days if someone wants to get to your child they can. You can even have a sophisticated security system but unless your home is protected like Fort Knox someone can still get in. It might be more difficult but if they are determined enough they can and will. My mom didn't think it was dangerous at the time and used to oil paint in the furnace room of the home I grew up in. The furnace guy told her she could blow the house up. Luckily that didn't happen. The world we live in is a dangerous place you cant always stop the bad guys from getting your kids. IMO

[dallasvic]

Are they kidding? :eek: So what if the neighbor heard Maddie screaming two nights before the disappearance. Kids have temper tantrums all the time, particularly if they don't want to go to bed.

LE is taking the word of this 70 year old woman who "probably" doubts the McCann's story they visited the flat thruout the night. Did she actually witness no activity? And just because her statement doesn't coincide with the MCCann's doesn't mean her's is right.

And then the conversation about when the police where called. So what if it was 40 minutes later, maybe Kate actually thought someone had already called the police.

OMG! This so isn't right. :no:

Hi O2S,

I totally agree with you. How would this lady know that it was Maddie that screamed ? They have 2 more children. It could have been one of them.
And about no activity, does this lady set her chair in front of her window and watch who comes and goes all day and night with out moving. If this is so she should have seen the person who took Maddie:shrug:

[One2Snoop]

Hi R,

During a search of the car and flat they lived in they found blood. It was sent off to be tested.The DNA results confirmed it was Maddie's blood.

I'm sorry dallasvic and readmylips but I don't believe this report is true.
Portugese police obviously have different rules. I'd certainly like to see more info regarding these supposed reports linking Kate and Gerry/via the DNA. I have to admit, I'm exremely frightened for these parents.

[One2Snoop]

Hi O2S,

I totally agree with you. How would this lady know that it was Maddie that screamed ? They have 2 more children. It could have been one of them.
And about no activity, does this lady set her chair in front of her window and watch who comes and goes all day and night with out moving. If this is so she should have seen the person who took Maddie:shrug:

Precisely dallasvic. It appears Portugese LE don't think that way. Apparently they believe what they're told, by senior citizens who actually witnesed "zip" in this case. How frightening is that? Makes me not want to ever travel abroad. Actually, I could tell you a few horror stories involving travel abroad/family members, but this isn't the place or time.

For Maddie. :rose:

[dallasvic]

A thought... well question... Is it possible for the police to lie regarding blood and its location etc. to try and get a suspect or so-called witness to crack and admit something? Would they go as far as publicly announcing it, or would it be when they are interrogating, privately in a room?


Hi Mishell

The police can lie all they want to get a confession. Another thing they do is question someone for many hours. Sometimes asking the same things over and over til the person confesses even if they did not do it. This is why there has been alot of false confessions. The person will say anything just to get them to stop.

[dallasvic]

Ok, I get that parents kill their kids, even on accident. But, these were Doctors! If Kate killed Maddie, even during an accident, why didn't she at least try to save her life?

As things unfold, I'm slowly starting to consider that the mom could have done this act, but I want to hear more evidence before I'm convinced.

As for the blood on the wall, unless there were blood spatters found on Kate's clothing, it doesn't really link her to the crime.

I will say that I'm glad the Brits got involved in this case, otherwise it may never be solved.

Poor Maddie. Where is she? :rose:

If Kate killed her and Gerry helped rid of her little body, she should have turned up by now.

I have considered this possibility: Maddie was dead before they left for the Tapas bar and that left them plenty of time to dispose of her. And, maybe Kate stayed on the island, IF she killed her, because she didn't want her daughter to not be found.


Hi TD,

I feel the same. I don't want it to be the parents and even since I joined this thread I have been in support of the parents. Nothings pointed in their direction and so much has happened over night that just does not feel right to me.

I do not want to past judgment on them. I need more evidence that proves with out a doubt they did such a senseless act. Why would they want to kill their child ?
I have stated before on a post way back. They are doctor and the overdose by accident does not fly with me. Doctors know how much of meds to give a child or person. This is what they spend their lives doing:shrug: Their Oath Is : (Do No Harm ) :rose:

[Athena]

A thought... well question... Is it possible for the police to lie regarding blood and its location etc. to try and get a suspect or so-called witness to crack and admit something? Would they go as far as publicly announcing it, or would it be when they are interrogating, privately in a room?

Answer to your question #1: Yes it is very possible Mishell and is allowed.
#2: Yes -- unless they are under oath in a court of law (at least in the US) it is still permissible in both instances and more likely than not, would go unpunished. The justification is to get a suspect to confess and unless they are beaten up or a videotape actually proves a suspect is coerced into confession it will stand up in court; that goes for both the police and the prosecutors. The only prosecutor that has been punished to my recollection has been Nifong because he actually withheld exculpatory evidence that was proven. JMO

[dallasvic]

I'm sorry dallasvic and readmylips but I don't believe this report is true.
Portugese police obviously have different rules. I'd certainly like to see more info regarding these supposed reports linking Kate and Gerry/via the DNA. I have to admit, I'm exremely frightened for these parents.

Hi O2S,

Here is part of the article and I have included the link to it. Please read this and let me know how it reads to you O.K ?
I feel the same as you do. I fear for her parent also:rose: I value you opinion greatly.
The tests center on new DNA evidence that could have come from a number of sources.


They include the flat where Madeleine disappeared, cars used by the McCanns and their friends - as well as the flat and cars of Robert Murat, the first arguido in the case.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?

[rashomon]

I agree that it was not a wise decision for the McCann's to leave their children alone while they went out at night and I bet they regret that they did and probably wouldn't do so again. But look at the other parents who had children taken from their homes. These parents thought their children were perfectly safe because they were in their home which they thought was safe. Stepanie Crowe was stabbed to death by an intruder when her parents were home reading in bed. No matter how careful you are these days if someone wants to get to your child they can. You can even have a sophisticated security system but unless your home is protected like Fort Knox someone can still get in. It might be more difficult but if they are determined enough they can and will. My mom didn't think it was dangerous at the time and used to oil paint in the furnace room of the home I grew up in. The furnace guy told her she could blow the house up. Luckily that didn't happen. The world we live in is a dangerous place you cant always stop the bad guys from getting your kids. IMO
It is true that there exists no guranteed security in life, no matter how many precautions we take. But I think it the McCann case is different from cases like e. g. the Crowe case, since the parents deliberately left their three small children alone who then were neither within hearing nor seeing range.
Now and then one can read in the papers of such tragic cases where parents put their kids to bed, went to a disco, and when they come back the apartment has burned down and their kids are dead because they woke up, found matches and lit them. These are just things which are prone to happen when you leave such small children back unsurpervised, and in case of a tragic accident occurring, the parents can be charged with neglect.
But here in Europe, the parents are often not charged, since LE seems to think they are already being punished enough by the death of their child.

jmo

[dallasvic]

Hi O2S,
Here is another article :
EXCERPT
The officers questioning of Mrs McCann focused on forensic tests that suggest Madeleine’s blood was found in the car the couple hired 25 days after the child disappeared from the resort of Praia da Luz in May.

The vehicle was seized a month ago and examined before being reassembled and returned to the couple. Local newspapers claimed the child’s bloodstains had been found in the boot and on the key fob, although police refused to confirm this.

The couple hired the Renault Scenic just days before embarking on their high profile tour of Europe including a trip to meet the Pope at the Vatican.

Detectives have also received results from forensic tests on samples, believed to include traces of blood, found in the holiday apartment.

Other reports claim police discovered a syringe in the apartment raising the suggestion that Madeleine had been sedated.

Mrs McCann’s lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, has advised her there is “a possibility” she may be charged in connection with her daughter’s death, a friend of the family said.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2405209.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2405209.ece)

[rashomon]

Wasn't it around 3pm?

It doesn't matter what time they arrived at the bar, it's the proof that the photo was actually taken at 2:30 pm.

When was the last time somebody actually saw her other then the parents and why did they take a photo of her(I assume alive) just before they left for the bar ?
I think it does matter when they arrived at the bar to get the time span between Maddie last being seen alive and their arrival at the bar. For if they are involved, Maddie must have died within that time frame.

It seems the only proof of Maddie last seen alive is the picture taken at 2.30 pm.

jmo

[dallasvic]

It's stunning to me that the papers say that NOW that Kate McC is a Formal Suspect that the case is being treated like an accidental killing rather than a murder.

They must have some very solid reasons for that.


imo

Hi M,

I would be inclined to say the same , but since they have not been arrested I am wondering if they are doing this as a tactic to get them to confess:eek:




http://www.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/27/285x214/18571_1.jpg The real victim: Maddy :rose:

[shill]

I think it does matter when they arrived at the bar to get the time span between Maddie last being seen alive and their arrival at the bar. For if they are involved, Maddie must have died within that time frame.

It seems the only proof of Maddie last seen alive is the picture taken at 2.30 pm.

jmoSorry, let me try and clarify. What I meant is that what ever time they were at the bar as a time alibi, the photo could be faked and the camera set for a time so that it appears they left her alone for just a little while.

EXAMPLE: If premeditated, you set your cameras clock ahead a few hours, you take her photo at 1pm and then kill her. The time stamped photo file says you took it at 3pm. two hours later your at the bar and you have correct the clock on the camera. At the bar at 3:10 pm and snap a couple of pictures with the correct time to verify your alibi.
Photos show you where away for 10 minutes, not 2 hours and 10 minutes.

[dallasvic]

I'm not quite sure why most people think the McCanns are innocent. I seriously believe that they know something, it's just a matter of what it is that they know.


Hi DDK,

I want to believe they are innocent because being a parent myself and they are doctors that took a oath. If they do know something I am sure we will find out soon. So much has happened just in a short time, I think it will be sooner than later.

[rashomon]

Sorry, let me try and clarify. What I meant is that what ever time they were at the bar as a time alibi, the photo could be faked and the camera set for a time so that it appears they left her alone for just a little while.

EXAMPLE: If premeditated, you set your cameras clock ahead a few hours, you take her photo at 1pm and then kill her. The time stamped photo file says you took it at 3pm. two hours later your at the bar and you have correct the clock on the camera. At the bar at 3:10 pm and snap a couple of pictures with the correct time to verify your alibi.
Photos show you where away for 10 minutes, not 2 hours and 10 minutes.
I hadn't thought of that. So theroetically, even the date on the picture could have been manipulated. But suppose it was not, then there is a time span between 2.30 pm and 7.30 pm when the arrived at the bar.
From a Sept 8 article:

"It has never been established when Madeleine was last seen in public and it may even be the case that she was alone with her family from earlier than 5pm.

Madeleine was photographed at the poolside that day at 2.29 pm but there is no evidence to suggest she was seen in public after that."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480630&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

[dallasvic]

I agree TD. I just posted something similar on the JBR board:

I do know that I am one of the critics as far as them leaving their children alone while they dined. I never left my children alone; not for a second unless I knew they were well-supervised. Whether they had anything to do with Madeleine's death remains to be seen but I don't take back my criticism. As a concerned parent, you just don't leave room for opportunity; it only takes a second........

The fact that one of the couples saw a man carrying a child an hour before the McCanns left the restaurant may help here if true and if it were Madeleine. JMO


Hi A,

I do agree with you on them leaving the kids while they went out with friends. At that age I still call them babies. You don't leave babies alone. These days there is so much EVIL in the world.
One thing they are guilty of and that is leaving those babies alone.
This was proble the worst MISTAKE they ever made. Maddie might still be with them if they had not made such a grave MISTAKE.:shrug:

[dallasvic]

:shrug: Someone please explain HOW a DOCTOR accidentially kills a child?..imo

:seeya: Hi D,

Go Figure:shrug: Doctors don't accidentally kill kids. How about 2 doctors in the house ?:eek: I say NO WAY!!! and surely not a overdose since this is what they do everyday. They are trained to know how much of some thing to prescribe for adults and children.:shrug:

[dallasvic]

We never left our daughter alone either unsupervised.

Leaving one's three small children alone in their room every night, not even within seeing and hearing range, not even closing the doors, is neglect, plain and simple.
I'm from Europe (Germany) and have been at this type of holiday resorts quite a few times. Many of them are not much guarded and visitors have free access - it's almost like in a hotel. While it is true that the crime and abduction rate in western Europe is low, crimes against children do happen, and the parents' irresponsible behavior was virtually inviting disaster.
Not only is kidnapping a danger - a child can wake up at any time during the night, panic because Mommy and Daddy aren't there, get up and wander around.

The Madeleine case is a nightmare. I just heard in the news that the police allegedly offered the mother a plea bargain if she admitted she accidentally killed Madeleine. There were rumors that the McCanns may have given their children sedatives so they could go out and party, but suppose Madeleine died from an accidental overdose, imo this would not explain her blood found.

jmo

:seeya: Hi R,

Thank for the info. Its nice to be able to have someone that can give us insight on these resorts and also the country they are in compared to the US.
I agree with you whole hearted. Children should not be left like that. A fire could break out , they could wake up and be scared and wonder off. Just to many things could happen.:shrug:

[bullmoose]

I hadn't thought of that. So theroetically, even the date on the picture could have been manipulated. But suppose it was not, then there is a time span between 2.30 pm and 7.30 pm when the arrived at the bar.
From a Sept 8 article:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480630&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

All the actions of the Portugese authorities make me suspicious that a certain former tabloid detective from Boulder may have hired on for the Portugese cops; does anybody know for sure where ST is lately? 11hour questioning[confessionsessions] just doesn't sound right for the same authorities that let the rooms that the McCann's had been in be cleaned and rented out shortly after they left; OH! OH! I smell do-nuts and coffee again, come on, doesn't anyone know if ST has left Australia to go help his beleagured buddies? JMHO:biggrin:

[Mishell1383]

Found the parents statements when she was found missing interesting, Gerry claims she was abducted, why would he automatically assume that she was kidnapped before thinking she could have ran off? Could not copy and paste, site wouldn't allow it.

Last updated Sept. 7, 2007
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/missing/mccann.asp

[DigitalDreamKat]

Hi DDK,

I want to believe they are innocent because being a parent myself and they are doctors that took a oath. If they do know something I am sure we will find out soon. So much has happened just in a short time, I think it will be sooner than later.

Oh I agree with the sentiment, especially as the parent of a 7 year old, but we have all seen the horrible things that parents can do to their children :(

I'm sincerely hoping that the McCanns are innocent, but .... I just don't know.

[rashomon]

All the actions of the Portugese authorities make me suspicious that a certain former tabloid detective from Boulder may have hired on for the Portugese cops; does anybody know for sure where ST is lately? 11hour questioning[confessionsessions] just doesn't sound right for the same authorities that let the rooms that the McCann's had been in be cleaned and rented out shortly after they left; OH! OH! I smell do-nuts and coffee again, come on, doesn't anyone know if ST has left Australia to go help his beleagured buddies? JMHO:biggrin:
We shouldn't jump to any premature conclusions either way, Bullmoose.

jmo

[TuscanDreams]

Oh I agree with the sentiment, especially as the parent of a 7 year old, but we have all seen the horrible things that parents can do to their children :(

I'm sincerely hoping that the McCanns are innocent, but .... I just don't know.

As a former child abuse investigator, I've seen first hand what parents can do to their kids. I've had cases in which kids were hung, beaten, raped, etc. That said, my career path has always been in the violent core of a large inner city- no doctors reside there.

I'm not letting the parents off the hook because they are doctors, I just want more evidence before I decide for myself their cupablity in their daughter's case. If an accident happened, Kate must have known that the damage she inflicted on her daughter caused death, because she didn't call for help.

Things just don't make sense- why wait 25 days to discover Maddie's blood in a room?

As a person who always considers people guilty, this is one of the first times I've thought a suspect could be innocent. I'm cynical by nature and I just don't see it, yet. Keeping in mind that my opinion could change in a second with more information- at this point, I see them as innocent.

[Mishell1383]

If they are guilty they are pretty smart, and ballsy may I add. To be in the news and to have a campaign for Maddie the way they do. By being in the public eye, nothing could make them "look" less guilty. An example of the opposite with how the Ramsey's looked guilty hiding behind lawyers and not campaigning for the search of their daughter's killer. Being in the spotlight and fighting for finding Maddie is the best move. I hope they are innocent. I really do. :shrug: I just don't know. :confused:

[Athena]

I am wondering if this is true, but we'll find out soon enough. According to this article once someone is considered a suspect they must be charged within 10 days. What I do find strange is that if they are considered primary suspects why haven't their passports been taken or told that they cannot leave Portugal?

This article says they admitted to giving the Madeleine and the twins sedatives?

Meanwhile, Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias said Saturday that Kate and Gerry McCann had admitted having given Madeleine, and her twin siblings, two-year-olds Sean and Amelie, sedatives on the night of May 3.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/225572/ROUNDUP_Madeleine_McCann_s_parents_now_suspects_to _fight_on_

[Luke Davis]

Hi Mishell

The police can lie all they want to get a confession. Another thing they do is question someone for many hours. Sometimes asking the same things over and over til the person confesses even if they did not do it. This is why there has been alot of false confessions. The person will say anything just to get them to stop.

The case was discussed last night on On The Record. It was mentioned that many prosecuters will offer a plea bargain, then leave people under observation to discuss the deal. Or they will offer a plea bargain to both people individually and tap their phones.


Explanation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG7BWnIH0sI)

[TuscanDreams]

PRAIA DA LUZ, Portugal (AP) — The parents of missing 4-year-old Madeleine McCann are keen to leave Portugal as soon as possible and return to Britain to clear their names after Portuguese police named them as suspects in their daughter's disappearance, a family friend said Saturday.
Clarence Mitchell said father Gerry McCann told him that he and his wife expected clarification of their legal status within 48 hours. Their lawyer said late Friday that police had declared the parents suspects in the May 3 disappearance.

"They are in broad agreement that they should get out as soon as they can," Mitchell told the Associated Press by telephone from Britain. Whether Portuguese police will allow them to leave is unclear, though their passports are not believed to have been seized up until now.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-09-07-missing-mccann_N.htm?csp=34

I snipped the above quote from the USA Today article. One of my questions was answered- their passports weren't seized until recently, accoording to the article.

Also, in the article from Athena:

Meanwhile, Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias said Saturday that Kate and Gerry McCann had admitted having given Madeleine, and her twin siblings, two-year-olds Sean and Amelie, sedatives on the night of May 3.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/articl...to _fight_on_

I want to know what type of sedatives and if they were really admistered via hypodermic needle.

[dallasvic]

I am very :confused: . They denied in the beginning of ever giving their children sedatives.

Meanwhile, Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias said Saturday that Kate and Gerry McCann had admitted having given Madeleine, and her twin siblings, two-year-olds Sean and Amelie, sedatives on the night of May 3.
I would like to know the purpose for them doing such a thing to babies ? Surely not so they could go out with friends:eek: What if a fire had started in the room with the little one ? They could be burned alive.
This whole case is just confusing.

[Devotion]

:seeya: Hi D,

Go Figure:shrug: Doctors don't accidentally kill kids.
How about 2 doctors in the house ?:eek: I say NO WAY!!! and surely not a overdose since this is what they do everyday.
They are trained to know how much of some thing to prescribe for adults and children.:shrug:

:seeya: Excellent points....
Another thing, I have read of young, single mothers leaving their children alone, because they had to go to work, and was ARRESTED for child endangerment..
What's with this same thing being overlooked when 2 wealthy, doctors leave 2 & 4 yr. old children alone in a strange country, just to have dinner with friends?...a crime is a crime, in my book..:read: ..JMO

[Devotion]

Found the parents statements when she was found missing interesting, Gerry claims she was abducted,
why would he automatically assume that she was kidnapped before thinking she could have ran off?
Could not copy and paste, site wouldn't allow it.

Last updated Sept. 7, 2007
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/missing/mccann.asp

:rolleyes: SO DID I.
It reminded me of other past cases...they all seem to have a simular ring..

This same ole, same ole...immediately calling it a "kidnapping" and calling in all the friends to contaminate the crime scene , is getting a bit used.

Why didn't they think the child had gone down the street looking for the parents?
Possibly fell in the pool or in a neighbors apartment,
the door was left unlocked ??.....jmo

[Its just me]

I am very :confused: . They denied in the beginning of ever giving their children sedatives.

Meanwhile, Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias said Saturday that Kate and Gerry McCann had admitted having given Madeleine, and her twin siblings, two-year-olds Sean and Amelie, sedatives on the night of May 3.
I would like to know the purpose for them doing such a thing to babies ? Surely not so they could go out with friends:eek: What if a fire had started in the room with the little one ? They could be burned alive.
This whole case is just confusing.


I don't post on this board but have followed this case praying this little angel would be found. The parents admitting to giving their children sedatives is alarming but not surprising. One of the things wrong in our country today is how the children were raised and how they are being raised. Children need love, guidance and disclipline not a sedative or babysitters where the sitter is alive one or a dead one. DVD's and computers as an example.

Dallasvic, if it is fact the parents gave the children a sedative I strongly think it was the purpose be able to have a good time without the children. This news breaks my heart and makes me want to stand up and shout "When you bring children into this world it's not all about you anymore". IJM

[Athena]

I snipped the above quote from the USA Today article. One of my questions was answered- their passports weren't seized until recently, accoording to the article.

Also, in the article from Athena:



I want to know what type of sedatives and if they were really admistered via hypodermic needle.

Thanks TD -- then they did confiscate their passports. I thought it was strange that they wouldn't. I must have missed that. :o

I'm with you on the sedatives - and if true, why were sedatives given to such young children? Is it possible it was to keep them asleep while the parents were out? and if true..... is it possible they gave Madeleine too much? and they had to admit it because a syringe was found? Doesn't explain the blood though. Questions, questions.............

[FDInLaw]

I don't post on this board but have followed this case praying this little angel would be found. The parents admitting to giving their children sedatives is alarming but not surprising. One of the things wrong in our country today is how the children were raised and how they are being raised. Children need love, guidance and disclipline not a sedative or babysitters where the sitter is alive one or a dead one. DVD's and computers as an example.

Dallasvic, if it is fact the parents gave the children a sedative I strongly think it was the purpose be able to have a good time without the children. This news breaks my heart and makes me want to stand up and shout "When you bring children into this world it's not all about you anymore". IJMExcellent post! Love your last statement, it is so true. So many people have "trophy kids" these days and it's so sad.

[dallasvic]

I don't post on this board but have followed this case praying this little angel would be found. The parents admitting to giving their children sedatives is alarming but not surprising. One of the things wrong in our country today is how the children were raised and how they are being raised. Children need love, guidance and disclipline not a sedative or babysitters where the sitter is alive one or a dead one. DVD's and computers as an example.

Dallasvic, if it is fact the parents gave the children a sedative I strongly think it was the purpose be able to have a good time without the children. This news breaks my heart and makes me want to stand up and shout "When you bring children into this world it's not all about you anymore". IJM

Hi IJM,

You are totally right! To me there are two things that are the most precious things we have and they are babies and memories;) The babies should be more important than your husband.

[TuscanDreams]

I'm starting to slide off of the fence and think that Kate could have harmed Maddie. If she gave those children sedatives via a hypodermic needle, she's capable of anything, IMO. Like DallasVic stated, a fire could have broken out and killed all three of those children!

What doesn't add up is the fact that the family was monitored 24/7 by the media after they reported Maddie missing, so how'd Kate move her body?

[rashomon]

Former Scotland Yard Detective Chief Inspector Peter Kirkham looks at four possible scenarios:

THEORY ONE
Madeleine was killed, her body hidden before being moved in the boot of the McCanns' silver Renault Scenic

DCI Kirkham: This is what police will have been quizzing Kate about. You don't have some one in for 11 hours to check a few points. Portuguese police apparently believe Madeleine was killed by accident. That fits with the suggestion that her body could have been hidden for a while. If murder is pre-meditated, the killer has worked out what to do with the body. If it happens without planning, most people panic and either run, cover up how the death happened or hide the body. Small bodies can easily disappear down holes and even if you do not know the area you will not have to go far to find somewhere to dump it. Later, if you think you are getting away with it, there may be a temptation to return and dispose of the body before the search widens or somebody stumbles across it.

THEORY TWO
Kate and Gerry are being framed by the Portuguese police for the death, as several close relatives have claimed

DCI Kirkham: This is highly unlikely. Although Portuguese police made early mistakes, it is big leap to accuse them of fit ting up the McCanns. The crucial evidence is the DNA recovered by British police and tested in a British laboratory. If Madeleine's body had been found it would be possible for somebody to take her blood and plant traces to implicate somebody. But without a body where is the supply of blood cells from Madeleine?

THEORY THREE
The samples found in the Renault Scenic are from cross-contamination or accidental transfer, possibly from the McCanns' belongings

DCI Kirkham: This would be possible if the DNA samples were so small they could be identified as coming from a particular cell - blood, hair or sweat. A police officer could have picked up Madeleine's DNA on gloves during one search and not changed them immediately after placing the sample in the evidence bag. However there is a big "But" here. If the British scientists found blood cells and enough of them to know it was significant, it makes it very unlikely they are there by chance. Blood is very strong circumstantial evidence especially with a DNA match when it's found where it shouldn't be.

THEORY FOUR
Madeleine was abducted and her attacker used the same hire car which the McCanns later hired

DCI Kirkham: This is the million-to-one defence which someone who has all the evidence stacked against them would use. The Portuguese police should be checking who had that Scenic before, tracing them and inter viewing to make sure they had no explanation for having Madeleine's blood. If I was in charge of this investigation I would do it, but only to double and triple-check the case.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/08/maddy-the-possibilities-89520-19753205/

[rashomon]

I'm starting to slide off of the fence and think that Kate could have harmed Maddie. If she gave those children sedatives via a hypodermic needle, she's capable of anything, IMO. Like DallasVic stated, a fire could have broken out and killed all three of those children!

What doesn't add up is the fact that the family was monitored 24/7 by the media after they reported Maddie missing, so how'd Kate move her body?
Indeed, how could they have (re)moved the body (I'm using "they" on purpose for imo no way would the husband have not been aware of what happened, given the circumstances!) being under constant media surveiilance?

Also it would interest me immensely when the "sedative theory" first came up.
Imo the police would not to fasten on such a scenario without evidence to back it up.
So do there exist any prior statements by anyone that the McCanns had the habit of giving sedatives to their children?

For if not, then the police must have found circumstantial evidence pointing to sedatives having been administered:
Syringes, opened packages, or sedatives in Madeleine's blood which was found in incrminating locations.
And if is true that both parents admitted to having given sedatives to Madeleine on that fatal night, imo the two doctors must have been confronted with irrefutable scientific evidence to get them to admit to it.

jmo

[dallasvic]

I'm starting to slide off of the fence and think that Kate could have harmed Maddie. If she gave those children sedatives via a hypodermic needle, she's capable of anything, IMO. Like DallasVic stated, a fire could have broken out and killed all three of those children!

What doesn't add up is the fact that the family was monitored 24/7 by the media after they reported Maddie missing, so how'd Kate move her body?

Hi TD,

I agree. And remember we have the lady that watches comings and going 24/7 at the apartment :eek: HOW WOULD KATE GET BY HER ? :shrug:

I just found this : Kate was devastated when her lawyer said cops now have enough evidence to CHARGE her if they wish.

So he had to have seen the evendince to tell her that,

[Devotion]

I'm starting to slide off of the fence and think that Kate could have harmed Maddie. If she gave those children sedatives via a hypodermic needle, she's capable of anything, IMO.

Like DallasVic stated, a fire could have broken out and killed all three of those children!

What doesn't add up is the fact that the family was monitored 24/7 by the media after they reported Maddie missing, so how'd Kate move her body?
:read: Maybe the doctors outsmarted the LE...
Didn't K. have a KEY to the CHURCH??
Churches have many very cool hiding places in them...what IF that was where M. was hidden until she was buried there or moved????
Was the "sniffer dogs" ever taken to the church????..JMO

[DigitalDreamKat]

Well, well, well, all that time the McCanns denied vehemently giving sedatives to their children and now they admit that they did. Shame on them! It has certainly blown their credibility.

As to moving the body, Maddie was only a little girl, she could have been moved in a sports bag or one of those huge diaper bags - hmmm?

I'm really concerned about how Gerry is saying he backs his wife 100% - it sounds suspect, like he knows something.

All, my opinion of course :)

[dallasvic]

Hi R,

Here are somethings I have come up with. If they did do this the only way I see they could have moved a body is if they had a garage to pull the car in and shut the door.

Indeed, how could they have (re)moved the body (I'm using "they" on purpose for imo no way would the husband have not been aware of what happened, given the circumstances!) being under constant media surveillance?
\\
\


Also it would interest me immensely when the "sedative theory" first came up.
Imo the police would not to fasten on such a scenario without evidence to back it up.
So do there exist any prior statements by anyone that the McCanns had the habit of giving sedatives to their children?


For if not, then the police must have found circumstantial evidence pointing to sedatives having been administered:
Syringes, opened packages, or sedatives in Madeleine's blood which was found in incrminating locations.
And if is true that both parents admitted to having given sedatives to Madeleine on that fatal night, imo the two doctors must have been confronted with irrefutable scientific evidence to get them to admit to it.




(They did find a syringe. I think this is what lead them to the sedative theory.I am sure they would have had it tested.:shrug: They did admit giving all the kids one that night.


In the beginning they denied giving them anything , and now they have change that. They did give them all one.
Also they said Maddies blood was found in the car and on a wall in the flat.)
jmo

[dallasvic]

Madeleine's parents flying back to the UK from Portugal today

THIS IS LONDON
09.09.07

The parents of missing Madeleine McCann will return to Britain from Portugal today amid fears they could be charged over their daughter's disappearance.

Kate and Gerry McCann are worried they could be charged over Madeleine's 'death' after they were named as "arguidos", or official suspects.

They wanted to fly back to the UK as soon as possible, but were worried that it might appear they are "running scared", according to Mr McCann's sister Philomena.

The McCanns' spokesman, however, confirmed the plans in a statement, saying: "Kate and Gerry will be returning home to the UK this morning as originally planned. They will depart from Faro Airport. .....

EXCERPT
Family friends said yesterday the couple intended to remain in the Algarve for the time being to "help the police", but were taking legal advice on whether they could return to the UK.

Now in a sudden turnabout they have reinstated the original plans.

The surprise move comes after reports that the couple could this week face a judge who has the power to charge them in connection with the death of their daughter.

Portuguese police were expecting to receive new forensic evidence, gathered from the McCanns' holiday apartment - either tomorrow or Tuesday which they believe will clinch their case against the couple.

CONTINUED
Madeleine's parents flying back to the UK from Portugal today (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23411510-details/Madeleine's%20parents%20flying%20back%20to%20Brita in%20today/article.do)


GOOD for them. If they still have their passports after all this ? If they do not stop them at the airport they don't have anything on them.
Before I seen this i was going to post that if they have not arrested them yet they don't have anything. I just a holding that glimmer of hope that they did not do this.
Sounds to me that these police need to get back to looking for Maddie.

I am reading on cadavers dogs an will repost my findings and why I was looking into them :seeya:

[One2Snoop]

GOOD for them. If they still have their passports after all this ? If they do not stop them at the airport they don't have anything on them.
Before I seen this i was going to post that if they have not arrested them yet they don't have anything. I just a holding that glimmer of hope that they did not do this.
Sounds to me that these police need to get back to looking for Maddie.

I am reading on cadavers dogs an will repost my findings and why I was looking into them :seeya:

Good post dallasvic. ITA! :beer:

[sharlock]

In Australia they have reported that the blood found in the car appears to be the same as the blood located in the apartment. They said it is hard to confirm these facts because portugal police don't have to inform the public but they said a lot of leaks that can be shown to have come from the police (ever since the time when Gerry said he felt a change in the way the police were treating them ) have been supplied to the Portugese papers and that is the reason that the Portugese papers have reported much less sympathetically for the couple than other countries. They also mentioned that by declaring someone a suspect it gives that person a lot more rights for example not to answer questions and to hire a lawyer but Australias reporters are reminding everyone that the man who was declared a suspect in the beginning of the case is still a suspect as well and that the police can have many suspects at any time. So it seems that they are confirming there was blood found in the department and these allegations all started after the time that the results to dna testing was returned from England labs. The most strange thing is that Kate has reportedly told her freinds that she is frustrated because she is not allowed to speak out publicly under Portugese law to defend herself and that the police made an offer of a plea bargain to her saying they would reduce her sentence to 2 yrs if she would admit to having accidentally killing her daughter. Kate has told her freinds she is innocent and is worried about where this supposed blood in the car has come from but the Portugese people are saying Kate is lying about the plea bargain and that Portugese police don't make those kind of offers. This was on the Channel 10 News Report today in Australia, there seemed to be a lot of speculation in this report imo.

[One2Snoop]

I don't post on this board but have followed this case praying this little angel would be found. The parents admitting to giving their children sedatives is alarming but not surprising. One of the things wrong in our country today is how the children were raised and how they are being raised. Children need love, guidance and disclipline not a sedative or babysitters where the sitter is alive one or a dead one. DVD's and computers as an example.

Dallasvic, if it is fact the parents gave the children a sedative I strongly think it was the purpose be able to have a good time without the children. This news breaks my heart and makes me want to stand up and shout "When you bring children into this world it's not all about you anymore". IJM

Apparently from what I've read, it doesn't sound like the McCann's were the only ones who went off and left their children that night. :eek:

At 9.10pm Jane Tanner said she crossed Gerry's path on her way to check her own children.
(Taken from the article titled, "The Lost Half Hour")

[dallasvic]

Apparently from what I've read, it doesn't sound like the McCann's were the only ones who went off and left their children that night. :eek:


(Taken from the article titled, "The Lost Half Hour")


Hopefully they had babysitters but if not I surely hope they NEVER leave them alone again. If people take to heart what has happened here, then maybe somethings good will come out of this tragedy.

:rose: For Maddie & Family:rose:

[dallasvic]

I had looked up things about the cadavar dogs.
First I want too say this : Maddies parents are doctor and they would be some what fimarly with forincis and boold detection. \
Also know the smell of death that start to accure right after death. Some times it start before they die.
They should know all this and as for her washing the stuffed animal, the dog can sent from that still. They can detect death in water.
These police do not have anything on them.
Another thing when dogs are broght in it is to be video taped.

[dallasvic]

:rose: For Maddie:rose:

:rose: For Kate & Gerry:rose:

Have a safe trip home:seeya:

[One2Snoop]

Hopefully they had babysitters but if not I surely hope they NEVER leave them alone again. If people take to heart what has happened here, then maybe somethings good will come out of this tragedy.

:rose: For Maddie & Family:rose:

Thats just it dallas, I don't think they had babysitters either. How scary is that? :eek: I'd never leave my children alone, particularly in a foreign place. In all the places we have traveled over time, we've never ever left our children alone in the hotel room/flat/rented house, etc.. One of us always stayed.
Hindsights 20/20 and the McCann's made a serious mistake, but I don't think they murdered Maddie. Were they negligent? YES! Did they murder or accidently cause Maddie's death? IMO, the answer is no.
My biggest question is, "Why would Portugal let them leave if they thought the parents were responsible in her disappearance/death?" :shrug:

[dallasvic]

Thats just it dallas, I don't think they had babysitters either. How scary is that? :eek: I'd never leave my children alone, particularly in a foreign place. In all the places we have traveled over time, we've never ever left our children alone in the hotel room/flat/rented house, etc.. One of us always stayed.
Hindsights 20/20 and the McCann's made a serious mistake, but I don't think they murdered Maddie. Were they negligent? YES! Did they murder or accidently cause Maddie's death? IMO, the answer is no.
My biggest question is, "Why would Portugal let them leave if they thought the parents were responsible in her disappearance/death?" :shrug:

Lets see if they make it in the air. If they do we will be right ,they have nothing on them:eek:

[Eagle1]

I do hope they thoroughly check out this possibility, and it is a possibility, Theory 4 above.

Re the 2:30 pm picture, is it the one where her eyes look so SAD?
I think it's really really important to know which picture or pictures we're talking about, when all of them were taken and why. Evidently they weren't just taking pictures of her because she was so cute. Are there pictures of the twins too? Are they younger than Maddie? I was thinking there was still another child, too young to tell what happened. Never heard about the door being left open. Maddie could have wondered off and been taken, or, who knows, they could have had arrangements with someone to come take her. In which case she might still be alive somewhere, in spite of the blood? This would be still Theory 4, right? Did they have cell phones? Could it have been a hotel employee, who could maybe watch the hallways?

Just thought of something else, the dinner with the friends may have been planned just to provide an alibi. Did the parents initiate that? The children had already eaten and been put to bed? Anyone see AMW Saturday night? I missed the first half hour.

That's good, Shill, about changing the clock on the camera.

[rashomon]

In this article, it says Maddie was last seen alive at the Ocean Club creche at 6 pm.
The big problem in the McCann case is that virtually all info is offered through the media only, so there is no way to back up this info by official police statements.

The McCanns claim to have arrived at the tapas bar at 8.30, but some of their friends say it was 9 pm.
But whether it was two and half or three hours during which they were alone with their children - how on earth could they have killed Maddie and disposed of the body in such a short time, having to carry her through a summer resort brimming with people? In May, it is still broad daylight at that time.
But even if they 'only' hid the body somewhere - where would they have done that? Weren't the whole premises searched after the missing alert, especially the McCanns' apartment?
And later, being under constant media surveiilance, how could the McCanns have removed the body from its hiding place to dispose of it? The whole region was being searched at that time. Something just doesn't add up here imo.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/0909_maddie2.shtml

[Eagle1]

Some things I noticed, reading that thread that Athena linked to:

1. Apparently some of the friends the McCann's were meeting also left their own children unattended, and one of them named Jane said she saw a man carrying away a child in pink pj's, but no other witnesses confirmed that.

2. Apparently a hypodermic needle may have been planted in a cupboard to implicate the parents, who, even if they had some arrangement with whoever actually took Maddie away, certainly would have known not to leave a hypodermic needle in a cupboard! If they did "sell" Maddie, hard to imagine for a couple of doctors, seems to me the person double-crossed them and/or tried to protect himself by planting the needle. (I have to give credit to DocWho3 for being the first to articulate that opinion.) Which needle wouldn't cause a blood, right?

3. There was discrepancy about when the McCanns arrived for dinner and their friends seemed reluctant to talk. The McCanns said they arrived about 8:30, and were first to arrive, but one of the others said they were the first to arrive. I forget what time, 8:45? In Athena's link somewhere.

4. A very elderly woman in the apartment above said two nights earlier she's heard Maddie crying Daddy, Daddy, for quite a while, but that the couple apparently came back from dinner and all was quiet again. They regularly did this? Just in case they plotted this, the whole vacation thing and making "friends" there, the "friends" were possibly just for an alibi.

5. I'm sympathetic to the Ramseys, even tho' they had their alarm turned off and were too trusting with rather questionable "friends", but these doctors must have had plenty of money for babysitters, and someone said there were even free babysitters where they were staying. They even left the door open? There's just NO excuse for leaving children that young alone even if locked in. And that sad picture, was it the last one taken of Maddie? I'm dying to know that. Was it taken as part of a planned alibi, as I believe Shill has suggested above, the clock on the camera may have been re-set? The child looks like she already knows something very sad and frightening, doesn't she? Has it been established there was a time stamp on it?

And, just an opinion, the couple sure don't look like very good doctors, do they? Kate just works part-time. They must have married late, considering they're both going on 40 and the ages of their children. He's a cardiologist. I don't think I'd want him for mine! Let's face it, this really does all look very suspicious, that they involved someone else, who just maybe drove the car they later rented. Leaving a door open, as if they could hear their own children 75yds away? Come on!

[TuscanDreams]

The parents fully cooperated with the Portugal police, which again shows that they had nothing to hide. This case is maddening, I flip flop back and forth as to what happened to Maddie.

Now that the parents are back in England, I have to state that I don't blame them for leaving.

Nothing makes sense- so what if Maddie's DNA was found in the room, unless it was a massive amount or was pooled in one area. She could have stepped on something, punctured her foot and bled on the carpet.

The only thing I have a problem with is the sedatives, if they were administered through a hypodermic needle- I'll consider the parents as suspects. The reason for that is that small children who are administered a sedative in a hospital setting have to be closely monitored as their heart rate drops, along with breathing, due to the nature of the drugs.

[Its just me]

Thats just it dallas, I don't think they had babysitters either. How scary is that? :eek: I'd never leave my children alone, particularly in a foreign place. In all the places we have traveled over time, we've never ever left our children alone in the hotel room/flat/rented house, etc.. One of us always stayed.
Hindsights 20/20 and the McCann's made a serious mistake, but I don't think they murdered Maddie. Were they negligent? YES! Did they murder or accidently cause Maddie's death? IMO, the answer is no.
My biggest question is, "Why would Portugal let them leave if they thought the parents were responsible in her disappearance/death?" :shrug:

Snoop, Its possible they allowed them to leave beause the LE don't have any evidence that would convict the parents. If the parents are responsible I believe it was from a sedative and not intentional. I watch this on Fox news last night and missed it if any thing was said about a sedative. I missed portions but big issues were repeated throughout the shows.

The parents came into play as possible suspects right at the time (according to Fox) the parents lease was up. Time will tell but it's possible the parents will never be charged but will have to live with this dark cloud over them for the rest of their lives just to save face of the Port. LE who simply can not solve this case. I can't imagaine being responsible for my child's death but it's a horrible thought to be accused and be innocent of the actual crime. The parents are responsible for leaving the children alone whatever happened to Madeleine.
MHOO IJM

[rashomon]

I'm beginning to question whether the police really have irrefutable evidence to back their theory up.
It is a very risky thing to offer a suspect a plea deal if you don't have hard evidence to back up your case against them. For in case the suspect doesn't bite, the police may end up with nothing and look like fools.
The police tried to corner Kate McCann into accepting a plea bargain. She didn't take the bait, and now it's the police's turn to put their cards on the table. And it seems they have played with a far weaker hand than they pretended. For there obviously was not enough convincing evidence to warrant an immediate arrest.

jmo

[Solace]

In this article, it says Maddie was last seen alive at the Ocean Club creche at 6 pm.
The big problem in the McCann case is that virtually all info is offered through the media only, so there is no way to back up this info by official police statements.

The McCanns claim to have arrived at the tapas bar at 8.30, but some of their friends say it was 9 pm.
But whether it was two and half or three hours during which they were alone with their children - how on earth could they have killed Maddie and disposed of the body in such a short time, having to carry her through a summer resort brimming with people? In May, it is still broad daylight at that time.
But even if they 'only' hid the body somewhere - where would they have done that? Weren't the whole premises searched after the missing alert, especially the McCanns' apartment?
And later, being under constant media surveiilance, how could the McCanns have removed the body from its hiding place to dispose of it? The whole region was being searched at that time. Something just doesn't add up here imo.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/0909_maddie2.shtml

Hi Rash,

I was reading about the case this a.m. and one of the dinner friends said she went to check on her child around 9:30 (apparently everyone leaves their children like this- unbelievable) and she said that she saw a man carrying a child in a blanket. Maddie's mother went to check on the children for the second time and Maddie was gone and she started screaming. I just think someone would have noticed something about the parents and they did not. She went to check the first time and all was fine, the second time she was gone. No one is that cool. There is no reason to kill her and if it were an accident, it was unintentional and my point is NO ONE WOULD BE THAT COOL IF THEY HAD KILLED HER and was trying to hide it. There was no evidence at dinner that they were upset. I think she was kidnapped.

HOWEVER, she was kidnapped because of their reckless disregard for her well being and they should be charged with something. Maddie suffering because her parents were selfish.

[Solace]

I agree,
I believe there are laws in the USA against that. At least I remember something about it in Michigan. You couldn't leave a child home alone under the age of 12 or 14, something like that, and then they were old enough to be home alone watching younger children.

I knew it was just a matter of time before we started agreeing.:biggrin:

[rashomon]

Hi Rash,

I was reading about the case this a.m. and one of the dinner friends said she went to check on her child around 9:30 (apparently everyone leaves their children like this- unbelievable) and she said that she saw a man carrying a child in a blanket. Maddie's mother went to check on the children for the second time and Maddie was gone and she started screaming. I just think someone would have noticed something about the parents and they did not. She went to check the first time and all was fine, the second time she was gone. No one is that cool. There is no reason to kill her and if it were an accident, it was unintentional and my point is NO ONE WOULD BE THAT COOL IF THEY HAD KILLED HER and was trying to hide it. There was no evidence at dinner that they were upset. I think she was kidnapped.

HOWEVER, she was kidnapped because of their reckless disregard for her well being and they should be charged with something. Maddie suffering because her parents were selfish.
Solace, I too just can't imagine the McCanns playing the happy and carefree couple at the dinner table while knowing they had just killed their daughter, even if it was 'only' an accident. This is simply beyond imagination.

But the guilt of having left Maddie alone will haunt them for the rest of their lives - they themselves said so.

I'm getting the feeling that so many blunders have happened (and are still happening) during this investigation, that in comparison, the Ramsey investigation almost seems to have been a model of its kind.
For example, after collecting evidence from the McCanns' hired car, the police handed it right back to them instead of keeping it until the test results were back.

Or think of how the police shot themselves in the foot by offering Kate McCann a plea deal which she refused. I doubt whether the police really have irrefutable evidence to back their theory up.
It is a very risky thing to offer a suspect a plea deal if you don't have hard evidence to back up your case against them. For in case the suspect doesn't bite, the police may end up with nothing and look like fools.
The police tried to corner Kate McCann into accepting a plea bargain. She didn't take the bait, and now it's the police's turn to put their cards on the table. And it seems they have played with a far weaker hand than they pretended. For there obviously was not enough convincing evidence to warrant an immediate arrest.

I've read that the police are running out of budget, which is why they want to bring this case to a closure. So they may have felt pressure to finally come up with "suspects".

jmo

[Athena]

Police video clue to Madeleine mystery

The Sunday Times
Steve Swinford in Praia da Luz, Mark Macaskill and Jon Ungoed-Thomas
September 9, 2007

PORTUGUESE police tried to pressurise Kate McCann into admitting killing her daughter Madeleine by repeatedly showing her video footage of sniffer dogs allegedly finding the scent of a body in the family's hire car.

During 16 hours of interrogation she was shown the footage of the dogs clambering over the Renault ScŽnic car in the hope that she would break down and confess. She was yesterday said to be distraught and exhausted by the ordeal.

The dogs' reaction was a key reason why the police suspect her of killing Madeleine. Officers told Kate they had found her daughter's DNA in the car even though it was hired three weeks after her disappearance. ....

EXCERPT
Jon Corner, a friend of the family, said: "They kept coming back to the hire car and kept showing Kate the video of sniffer dogs. They also told her that Madeleine's DNA was found in the car."

CONTINUED
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2414735.ece

Finding Madeleine's DNA three weeks after they leased this car doesn't make sense. If they had killed Madeleine and transported her body wouldn't the blood have been dried on her and whatever she was wearing? :confused:

[Solace]

Solace, I too just can't imagine the McCanns playing the happy and carefree couple at the dinner table while knowing they had just killed their daughter, even if it was 'only' an accident. This is simply beyond imagination.

But the guilt of having left Maddie alone will haunt them for the rest of their lives - they themselves said so.

I'm getting the feeling that so many blunders have happened (and are still happening) during this investigation, that in comparison, the Ramsey investigation almost seems to have been a model of its kind.
For example, after collecting evidence from the McCanns' hired car, the police handed it right back to them instead of keeping it until the test results were back.

Or think of how the police shot themselves in the foot by offering Kate McCann a plea deal which she refused. I doubt whether the police really have irrefutable evidence to back their theory up.
It is a very risky thing to offer a suspect a plea deal if you don't have hard evidence to back up your case against them. For in case the suspect doesn't bite, the police may end up with nothing and look like fools.
The police tried to corner Kate McCann into accepting a plea bargain. She didn't take the bait, and now it's the police's turn to put their cards on the table. And it seems they have played with a far weaker hand than they pretended. For there obviously was not enough convincing evidence to warrant an immediate arrest.

I've read that the police are running out of budget, which is why they want to bring this case to a closure. So they may have felt pressure to finally come up with "suspects".

jmo

They had Maddie's height wrong by 3 inches I believe. They didn't even start looking for something like 15 hours and the list goes on and on.

They didn't do this thing. But every picture of her is absolutely adorable. Truly, this child would be noticed and more so should not be left alone. Incredibly, the parents did and as far as I am concerned, they are getting off easy. They are not in jail.

Not that that would do much good at this point, but it might instill in others if they do, they will be prosecuted.

Why should they go free when they abused their child by leaving her alone to be kidnapped. And I have no idea what is happening to her now and cannot even think about going there. They are getting off easy. It is atrocious that they left her alone. A gentlemen here in the states was just sentenced to 7 years in a federal prison for owning child porn that was considered so distasteful that two judges pointed it out. Children under 12 were being raped and by all appearances in the films "snuffed".

So for someone to leave a little girl alone in a hotel in Portugal is beyond reasoning. Total disregard. I just get angry thinking about it.

[Eagle1]

I think it does matter when they arrived at the bar to get the time span between Maddie last being seen alive and their arrival at the bar. For if they are involved, Maddie must have died within that time frame.

It seems the only proof of Maddie last seen alive is the picture taken at 2.30 pm.

jmo

I've cut an errand short to get back to my computer after church Never have posted a JonBenet theory, but this case seems so similar,
maybe they will shed light on each other.

Here goes. Far out? "What if" some international drug dealers the heart doctor got mixed up with and was trying to stop dealing with, were threatening the McCanns, if they didn't let them have Maddie as "collateral"?

Either drug dealers or powerful and fearful in some other way, so there's coverups like in the JonBenet case, bungling.

I'm online to see if I can tell what Maddie was wearing in that sad eyes picture, if it was her last pic, and one of the bad guys took the picture and her. That just might explain her expression. I sort of doubt the parents would have taken a picture of her looking so sad, because it would spread suspicion of abuse, but they may have left a camera lying around in plain sight. Like DocWho3, I don't think they'd be ignorant enough to leave a hypodermic needle in a cupboard. That seems like someone's staging to frame the Ramseys.

And if I'm still able to edit this in, it reminds me also of the Natalee Holloway case.

We didn't think the perp had struck again since JonBenet, but just maybe.

[Solace]

I've cut an errand short to get back to my computer after church Never have posted a JonBenet theory, but this case seems so similar,
maybe they will shed light on each other.

Here goes. Far out? "What if" some international drug dealers the heart doctor got mixed up with and was trying to stop dealing with, were threatening the McCanns, if they didn't let them have Maddie as "collateral"?

Either drug dealers or powerful and fearful in some other way, so there's coverups like in the JonBenet case, bungling.

I'm online to see if I can tell what Maddie was wearing in that sad eyes picture, if it was her last pic, and one of the bad guys took the picture and her. That just might explain her expression. I sort of doubt the parents would have taken a picture of her looking so sad, because it would spread suspicion of abuse, but they may have left a camera lying around in plain sight. Like DocWho3, I don't think they'd be ignorant enough to leave a hypodermic needle in a cupboard. That seems like someone's staging to frame the Ramseys.

And if I'm still able to edit this in, it reminds me also of the Natalee Holloway case.

We didn't think the perp had struck again since JonBenet, but just maybe.


Is it possible that Noriega is involved in this?:cool:

[LadyFisher]

Hi Rash,

I was reading about the case this a.m. and one of the dinner friends said she went to check on her child around 9:30 (apparently everyone leaves their children like this- unbelievable) and she said that she saw a man carrying a child in a blanket. Maddie's mother went to check on the children for the second time and Maddie was gone and she started screaming. I just think someone would have noticed something about the parents and they did not. She went to check the first time and all was fine, the second time she was gone. No one is that cool. There is no reason to kill her and if it were an accident, it was unintentional and my point is NO ONE WOULD BE THAT COOL IF THEY HAD KILLED HER and was trying to hide it. There was no evidence at dinner that they were upset. I think she was kidnapped.

HOWEVER, she was kidnapped because of their reckless disregard for her well being and they should be charged with something. Maddie suffering because her parents were selfish.

Solace, I just can't believe that I'm agreeing with you, but I am! I do think the child was kidnapped. I do think the parents were reckless.....but are paying dearly now for that....it would be horrible to be in their shoes....we can only imagine the guilt they feel! I hate to kick them when they are already down. :rose: For Maddie and her parents! jmho

[Solace]

Solace, I just can't believe that I'm agreeing with you, but I am! I do think the child was kidnapped. I do think the parents were reckless.....but are paying dearly now for that....it would be horrible to be in their shoes....we can only imagine the guilt they feel! I hate to kick them when they are already down. :rose: For Maddie and her parents! jmho

I know. I am as shocked as you are. First Shill, now you. What am I to think?

Lady,

I understand what you mean about kicking them when they are down,but apparently this is somewhat normal practice - a friend at the same dinner also left her child alone and did the same checking. What is everyone brain damaged? It should be explicitly clear to everyone, you leave your child alone and unattended and you will be prosecuted.

Because she is gone now and they get to live but she, if she is alive, and unless someone took her because she was adorable and wanted her for their own and was going to treat her well (WHICH I DOUBT) - it is more likely that it was for nefarious reasons - and when I start thinking about it, I have no problem kicking them when they are down.

Maddie is the one who is being hurt and possibly is dead. I don't feel sorry for them. Can't help it. One has to be totally stupid to leave a child like that alone. And since they did not take the other children, one of which was also a girl and blond, I think she is in serious harm and had to be terrifed.

I have to stop. I get that angry. I feel no compassion for that mother when I see her.

If I sound angry, I am. Because I believe at this moment, if she is not already dead, she is being abused. Maybe in ten years I will feel sorry for the mother. But I doubt it.

[rashomon]

Very interesting article:

http://www.people.co.uk/news/news/tm_method=full%26objectID=19758723%26siteID=93463-name_page.html

A dossier of covert electronic and physical evidence coupled with forensic reports led to the McCanns both being labelled suspects.
Maybe the police bugged the residence where they were staying after the crime?

[Solace]

Very interesting article:

http://www.people.co.uk/news/news/tm_method=full%26objectID=19758723%26siteID=93463-name_page.html


Maybe the police bugged the residence where they were staying after the crime?


But Rash,

She was last seen at 6:00 (or at least they have a picture of her at 2:30 p.m.). I don't care how cool you are, if you unintentionally kill your daughter, you are going to be upset and you are going to show it somehow, some way. They did not appear to be upset until 9:30 or so that night. How are they going to sit at dinner without letting something show.

I just don't think they did it. I think she was kidnapped and their friend actually saw the child be kidnapped but did not realize it.

I realize the techniques are excellent, but if you are in a foreign country and being interviewed by the morons who screwed up the investigation showing you over and over and over the cadavar dogs finding scents in the car, you are going to be a little ticked off to say the least.

I just think they did not do it. But thank you so much for the article.

[Mysteri]

Now that both parents are suspects, things will be heating up. Leaving Portugal at this point looks more fishy than ever.


imo

[dallasvic]

I'm beginning to question whether the police really have irrefutable evidence to back their theory up.
It is a very risky thing to offer a suspect a plea deal if you don't have hard evidence to back up your case against them. For in case the suspect doesn't bite, the police may end up with nothing and look like fools.
The police tried to corner Kate McCann into accepting a plea bargain. She didn't take the bait, and now it's the police's turn to put their cards on the table. And it seems they have played with a far weaker hand than they pretended. For there obviously was not enough convincing evidence to warrant an immediate arrest.

jmo

Hi R,

They knew they were going to be leaving so they tried the scare tactic and it did not work. They needed a escape goat they have nothing. They the let them leave; tell me they have nothing on them.

[dallasvic]

Snoop, Its possible they allowed them to leave beause the LE don't have any evidence that would convict the parents. If the parents are responsible I believe it was from a sedative and not intentional. I watch this on Fox news last night and missed it if any thing was said about a sedative. I missed portions but big issues were repeated throughout the shows.

The parents came into play as possible suspects right at the time (according to Fox) the parents lease was up. Time will tell but it's possible the parents will never be charged but will have to live with this dark cloud over them for the rest of their lives just to save face of the Port. LE who simply can not solve this case. I can't imagaine being responsible for my child's death but it's a horrible thought to be accused and be innocent of the actual crime. The parents are responsible for leaving the children alone whatever happened to Madeleine.
MHOO IJM


Hi IJM,

You have some excellent points. Thanks for the info on Fox i did not get to see it at all.:seeya:

[TuscanDreams]

Now that both parents are suspects, things will be heating up. Leaving Portugal at this point looks more fishy than ever.
imo

I have a different take on the McCann's leaving Portugal. They have 2 other children, who are only 2 years old and they need to care for them as well. Also, their lease on the flat they rented expired, so they'd have to find new housing.

[Eagle1]

Very interesting article:

http://www.people.co.uk/news/news/tm_method=full%26objectID=19758723%26siteID=93463-name_page.html


Maybe the police bugged the residence where they were staying after the crime?

Evidently if they got anything that way it wasn't enough.

About the newspaper link, the body wouldn't still bleed days after, if they moved it in a car, right?

Won't someone post that picture from Athena's link where Maddie looks so sad, maybe even horrified about something? My copy/paste attempt didn't work. Maybe Jane really did see a man, and he found the McCanns' camera lying around, took that picture to leave for them?

As someone already said at the other link, doctors would be too smart to leave a hypodermic needle in a cupboard, and I think they'd be too smart to leave their children alone in a strange place with the door open, their "friends" too, who supposedly went to check on their own kids.

It's too much like the Ramsey "friends" and the Ramseys seeming to know something. Seems like the McCanns do too, imho. Neither set of parents are that stupid. There's almost got to be something similar causing both this case and JonBenet. Both sets of parents being framed but also knowing something.

I'm thinking this hypothetical perp used to own that car, sold it to the rental company, and somehow made sure it was the one the McCanns were given as a rental, meaning more than just the one man would be involved. Similar in a way to most everyone's knowing JR's bonus amount and all that.

[dallasvic]

Finding Madeleine's DNA three weeks after they leased this car doesn't make sense. If they had killed Madeleine and transported her body wouldn't the blood have been dried on her and whatever she was wearing? :confused:


I agree I believe it would. Good point.:seeya:

[DigitalDreamKat]

Finding Madeleine's DNA three weeks after they leased this car doesn't make sense. If they had killed Madeleine and transported her body wouldn't the blood have been dried on her and whatever she was wearing? :confused:

Unless she was still alive while everyone was looking for her. The McCanns have admitted to giving their children sedatives already. Of course, where the live Maddie was hidden in the interim, I don't know. Or, the blood could have flaked off?

Gah, it just gets more and more confusing.

I'm concerned about the fact that Kate keeps saying - I'm being framed - it seems weird to me. I know that they have been under enormous pressure, but it's still weird to me. I'm not sure how, but I have this feeling.

[dallasvic]

MADELEINE: 'WE CAN PROVE PARENTS DID IT'

DAILY EXPRESS
By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz and Martin Evans in Rothley
Monday September 10, 2007

THE parents of Madeleine McCann flew back to Britain yesterday as Portuguese police said: “We have enough evidence to convict you.”

They made their confidence clear as Kate and Gerry McCann dramatically returned home with two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.

EXCERPT
A source close to the Policia Judiciaria said they were expecting the results from the latest batch of tests to clinch their case against the couple.

But he added: “Even if it doesn’t, we have enough already to go on.” The source said detectives decided to focus their investigation on the McCanns, rather than an unknown abductor, many weeks ago and were planning to name them as suspects as long as a month ago.

He added that the results of tests on samples given to the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham revealed the experts were 78.95 per cent sure that blood found in the McCanns’ hire care was Madeleine’s.

CONTINUED
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/18738


I do not agree with these so called test. :cuss:
Here in the US a DNA test is like one in one millon that that DNA came from that one person.:shrug:
I would like to see this DNA sent to the US for testing.:biggrin:

[Devotion]

I couldn't agree more, Solace and Athena.

Leaving one's three small children alone in their room every night, not even within seeing and hearing range, not even closing the doors, is neglect, plain and simple.

I'm from Europe (Germany) and have been at this type of holiday resorts quite a few times. Many of them are not much guarded and visitors have free access - it's almost like in a hotel. While it is true that the crime and abduction rate in western Europe is low, crimes against children do happen,

and the parents' irresponsible behavior was virtually inviting disaster.
Not only is kidnapping a danger - a child can wake up at any time during the night, panic because Mommy and Daddy aren't there, get up and wander around.

The Madeleine case is a nightmare.
I just heard in the news that the police allegedly offered the mother a plea bargain if she admitted she accidentally killed Madeleine.

There were rumors that the McCanns may have given their children sedatives so they could go out and party,

but suppose Madeleine died from an accidental overdose, this would not explain her blood found.

jmo

:mad: HOW SCARY...What IF: Both parents gave the children sedatives, that evening,
NOT realizing the other parent had already given the children a sedative, resulting in an overdose?...just guessing and IMO

[odette]

Finding Madeleine's DNA three weeks after they leased this car doesn't make sense. If they had killed Madeleine and transported her body wouldn't the blood have been dried on her and whatever she was wearing? :confused:

Athena, I don't know if this might help .. According to this excerpt, from an article which I posted ...

"It is possible to tell if the blood came from a living person or from a corpse, and even the time of death."

TIMES ONLINE - September 10, 2007
What is the most important new evidence?
It appears the FSS believes has discovered compelling new evidence, possibly from more than one source. Portuguese detectives repeatedly told Kate McCann that they found traces of Madeleine’s blood in a Renault Scenic hired three weeks after she disappeared, suggesting the missing girl’s parents used the vehicle to carry her body. It is possible to tell if the blood came from a living person or from a corpse, and even the time of death. However, some reports suggest that the quality of the blood sample was too poor to confirm the origin while others have denied any blood was found in the vehicle and claim it was other “bodily fluids”. Unless a body had been placed in a freezer, it would have badly decomposed during the warm weather; leaving a mass of traces invisible to the human eye.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2419511.ece

[dallasvic]

Unless she was still alive while everyone was looking for her. The McCanns have admitted to giving their children sedatives already. Of course, where the live Maddie was hidden in the interim, I don't know. Or, the blood could have flaked off?

Gah, it just gets more and more confusing.

I'm concerned about the fact that Kate keeps saying - I'm being framed - it seems weird to me. I know that they have been under enormous pressure, but it's still weird to me. I'm not sure how, but I have this feeling.

Hi DDK,

If they did do this and I do not think they did but, she would have had to be alive or the smell from the decaying body would have been noticable.
I think someone has her and if they will focus on someone else besides the parents they just might fine her.:shrug:

[Devotion]

I know. I am as shocked as you are. First Shill, now you. What am I to think?

Lady,

I understand what you mean about kicking them when they are down,but apparently this is somewhat normal practice - a friend at the same dinner also left her child alone and did the same checking.
What is everyone brains damaged?
It should be explicitly clear to everyone, you leave your child alone and unattended and you will be prosecuted.

Because she is gone now and they get to live but she, if she is alive, and unless someone took her because she was adorable and wanted her for their own and was going to treat her well (WHICH I DOUBT) - it is more likely that it was for nefarious reasons - and when I start thinking about it,
I have no problem kicking them when they are down.

Maddie is the one who is being hurt and possibly is dead. I don't feel sorry for them. Can't help it.

One has to be totally stupid to leave a child like that alone. And since they did not take the other children, one of which was also a girl and blond, I think she is in serious harm and had to be terrifed.

I have to stop. I get that angry. I feel no compassion for that mother when I see her.

If I sound angry, I am. Because I believe at this moment, if she is not already dead, she is being abused. Maybe in ten years I will feel sorry for the mother. But I doubt it.

:shrug: I AGREE..
Notice the MARK in one of M's eyes, this is typical of a CHARGE child (coloboma), one more reason this child should not have been left alone anywhere, any time....IMO

[One2Snoop]

Athena, I don't know if this might help .. According to this excerpt, from an article which I posted ...

"It is possible to tell if the blood came from a living person or from a corpse, and even the time of death."

I certainly hope they ran tests to determine this.

I'm glad the McCanns made it home safely. :rose:

[dallasvic]

Athena, I don't know if this might help .. According to this excerpt, from an article which I posted ...

"It is possible to tell if the blood came from a living person or from a corpse, and even the time of death."


Hi Odette,

Great Post:seeya:

[Devotion]

Evidently if they got anything that way it wasn't enough.

About the newspaper link, the body wouldn't still bleed days after, if they moved it in a car, right?

Won't someone post that picture from Athena's link where Maddie looks so sad, maybe even horrified about something? My copy/paste attempt didn't work. Maybe Jane really did see a man, and he found the McCanns' camera lying around, took that picture to leave for them?

As someone already said at the other link, doctors would be too smart to leave a hypodermic needle in a cupboard,

and I think they'd be too smart to leave their children alone in a strange place with the door open,

their "friends" too, who supposedly went to check on their own kids.

It's too much like the Ramsey "friends" and the Ramseys seeming to know something. Seems like the McCanns do too, imho. Neither set of parents are that stupid.


:no: Doctors yes, SMART ????????????? JMO

[odette]

Hi Odette,

Great Post:seeya:

Hey dallasvic .. :seeya:

This case is getting more and more complicated by the day :confused:

[dallasvic]

Madeleine: Just how foolproof are the forensic tests?

DAILY MAIL
By MICHAEL HANION
Last updated at 00:01am on 10th September 2007

The stuff of life, the carrier of our genetic code, DNA has become one of the most powerful forensic tools in crime-fighting history. Its evidence is powerful, concrete and extraordinarily persuasive in a court of law. .....

CONTINUED
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480937&in_page_id=1770



These test are great when they are in the RIGHT HANDS. There are cases here in the US were test were falsified,but there was a whistle blower that brought them to light and since then I have not heard of another report. :seeya:

[dallasvic]

Hey dallasvic .. :seeya:

This case is getting more and more complicated by the day :confused:


Hi Odette,

I know I am going BONKERS:eek: Please send HELP:confused: I will be glad when Maddie is found:rose:

[Louisadelmar]

Interesting article:

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article2379833.ece

[dallasvic]

Madeleine: 'Parents should be charged with killing daughter' say police

DAILY MAIL
Last updated at 00:30am on 10th September 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann should be charged with killing their daughter Madeleine and covering up the evidence, Portuguese police insist.

Despite serious questions about the investigation and reliability of forensic evidence, the distraught couple fear their emotional return to Britain yesterday might be brief.

Detectives claim tests by forensic scientists in Birmingham support the theory that she came to harm in the couple's holiday apartment on the night of May 3.

They insist that samples taken from the flat - and from a car the couple hired weeks later - indicate that something terrible happened.

The detectives are determined to charge Mrs McCann with accidental homicide - the Portuguese equivalent of manslaughter - and her husband with helping to dispose of the body.

The bombshell development means the couple from Rothley, Leicestershire, could be forced to return to Portugal within weeks.

Last night it was revealed that they have consulted the British lawyer who represented Chilean dictator General Pinochet in his battle to avoid extradition to Chile on charges of torture and human rights abuses. .....

CONTINUED
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480931&in_page_id=1770&ct=5


The top line gets me:flamemad: If so they need to do it or shut up:cuss:

[Its just me]

The top line gets me:flamemad: If so they need to do it or shut up:cuss:

IMHOO this is a cop out by the police investigators etc of this case. They have no evidence to arrest this couple or they would NOT have been allowed to leave. Now the authorities are saying that the couple leaving will complicate/delay their investigation.. This stinks really bad to me.
Naming them as suspects with no evidence was not enough now they are going to try to blame them for the case not being solved.
The giving of a sedative is a question I don't have an answer for but I saw this mom on tv holding the twin daughter as they returned home and the love for this child on the mothers face was clear. If I'm wrong I'll just have to eat my words. I don't expect an arrest nor do I expect them to solve this case unless God answers our prayers for Maddie. IJM

[dallasvic]

IMHOO this is a cop out by the police investigators etc of this case. They have no evidence to arrest this couple or they would NOT have been allowed to leave. Now the authorities are saying that the couple leaving will complicate/delay their investigation.. This stinks really bad to me.
Naming them as suspects with no evidence was not enough now they are going to try to blame them for the case not being solved.
The giving of a sedative is a question I don't have an answer for but I saw this mom on tv holding the twin daughter as they returned home and the love for this child on the mothers face was clear. If I'm wrong I'll just have to eat my words. I don't expect an arrest nor do I expect them to solve this case unless God answers our prayers for Maddie. IJM


YOU ARE Awesome!!!!:rose:
Thank You:rose:
Thank You:rose:
Thank You:rose:
I could not have said that better myself.You are totally correct.

[dallasvic]

The only thing these parent did I believe was left their children alone:no: and now they are paying a huge price for making a MISTAKE, and last time I heard that was not asignist the law.:shrug:

:rose: For Maddie&Family:rose:

[TuscanDreams]

The only thing these parent did I believe was left their children alone:no: and now they are paying a huge price for making a MISTAKE, and last time I heard that was not asignist the law.:shrug:


I agree. The sedatives do bother me, however. I know I keep harping on this, but if they were given via a hypodermic needle, I could change my mind on this.

How many parents travel with a hypodermic needle to administer sedatives? How did they get through airport security, I know they are doctors by why take a hypodermic needle with you on vacation? At this time, I'm just going to consider their innocence, until I hear some real evidence.

This case is a mess and I agree with IJM. Unless God grants a miracle, this case will remain unsolved.

[dallasvic]

I agree. The sedatives do bother me, however. I know I keep harping on this, but if they were given via a hypodermic needle, I could change my mind on this.

How many parents travel with a hypodermic needle to administer sedatives? How did they get through airport security, I know they are doctors by why take a hypodermic needle with you on vacation? At this time, I'm just going to consider their innocence, until I hear some real evidence.

This case is a mess and I agree with IJM. Unless God grants a miracle, this case will remain unsolved.

Hi TD,

I agree with you on this. I do not think it will be solved. The police say they are guilty. why do they not just arrest them if this is so true. I don't think they have anything on them or they would have took their passports or even arrest them in the airport, but they did not so they have nothing on them. IMO

:rose: For Maddie & Family:rose:

[Jayelles]

I'm sickened by the way this case is going. One things is for sure - I won't be choosing Portugal anytime soon for a vacation!

The media here is reporting that Kate was threatened that if she didn't "confess" to killing Madeleine, then she and Gerry would both be charged and locked up without bail with no hope of a trial for at least a year.

[One2Snoop]

I was half watching TV last night (and my husband kept flipping the channels :punch:) they had something on about Maddies case. The part I heard talked about the Police and how they were small time there and have no experience in a case like this. I believe it with all the madness that has come out via the media. I think it was on Larry King Live. I'll see if I can find a source for this.

[FDInLaw]

I was half watching TV last night (and my husband kept flipping the channels :punch:) they had something on about Maddies case. The part I heard talked about the Police and how they were small time there and have no experience in a case like this. I believe it with all the madness that has come out via the media. I think it was on Larry King Live. I'll see if I can find a source for this.
Interesting. . . do post a link if you find one.

I have a sick feeling in my stomach that we may never know what happened to Maddie for sure. . . I sure hope this is not the case! :(

[One2Snoop]

Interesting. . . do post a link if you find one.

I have a sick feeling in my stomach that we may never know what happened to Maddie for sure. . . I sure hope this is not the case! :(

We must of had it saved on DVR because this is dated the 7th. This is the one I was watching last night, well part of it anyway.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0709/07/lkl.01.html

JOHN WALSH, "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED": This is a small police agency in Portugal that has never dealt with a case of a missing child, has very limited resources, is having all kinds of scrutiny from the media throughout the world. It's not unusual for them to focus back in on the family when they're frustrated and don't have any other suspects.

[rashomon]

:shrug: I AGREE..
Notice the MARK in one of M's eyes, this is typical of a CHARGE child (coloboma), one more reason this child should not have been left alone anywhere, any time....IMO
I think if Madeleine had suffered from CHARGE syndrome, it would be known.
Charge Syndrome:
Coloboma of the eye (a cleft or keyhole-shaped defect occurring in one or more areas of the eye including the iris, retina, or disc)
Heart defect
Atresia of the choanae (closure of the passages from the back of the nose to the throat which allow breathing through the nose)
Retardation of growth and/or development
Genital Hypoplasia (this can include in boys a small penis, undescended testicles, no urethral opening at the end of the penis and in girls in can include a small or absent labia)
Ear malformations

Madeleine and her siblings were conceived by in-vitro-fertilization, but from all we know, she was normally developed child.

jmo

[Mishell1383]

Unfortuanly I feel too as though we can just add this one to the number of unsolved crimes. And missing victims.

Madeline McCann :rose:

[Jayelles]

Madeleine McCann Q&A: what happened that night?

TIMES ONLINE
David Brown in Praia da Luz
September 9, 2007

Gerry McCann refused to answer 40 key questions about the disappearance of his daughter during a key interview by detectives after he was made an official suspect, it was reported today.

Friends of Mr McCann and his wife, Kate, believe that detectives are desperately trying to trick or bully the couple into confessing to accidentally killing their daughter and then disposing of her body.

The alleged discrepancies and contradictions of their account of Madeleine’s disappearance and their subsequent actions are seen as crucial by police.


Madeleine McCann Q&A: what happened that night?
What happened in the four hours before Madeleine was reported missing?
Why did Kate McCann cry out “They’ve taken her?” when she discovered Madeleine missing?
What were the movements of the McCann’s friends on the night Madeleine disappeared?
How much alcohol did the McCanns and their friends drink on the evening Madeleine disappeared?
Why was Madeleine’s bedroom window and shutter open?
Why did Madeleine’s sister and brother sleep through her “abduction”?

CONTINUED
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/global/article2418919.ece

My heart is breaking for the McCanns because I feel very strongly that the police are making a terrible mistake. At not point have I ever felt these parents harmed their daughter. I haven't really been getting involved in discussions about the parents because I've seen an awful lot of misinformation being posted and I just don't have the energy to participate in those discussions. However, I'd like to make a little point for the record.

Kate McCann has quite a broad dialect - i.e. she definitely doesn't sound "posh". (Gerry and his family actually sound "posher" than Kate - even although their Glasgow accents probably don't sound that way to Americans! They are well spoken Glaswegians who don't miss out syllables when they are speaking). I digress. It's quite common for people here to say "they" when they are referring to one person even although that's technically incorrect and he/she would be more correct.

For example:-

"Who was the last person to leave? Well, whoever it was....they left the door open".

I don't know if you would find this in America but if she said "THEY've taken her", she isn't necessarily referring to more than one person - just an unknown person or persons.

[Louisadelmar]

From the reading I don't think CHARGE and Coloboma are synonymous. Though ~80-90% of people with the CHARGE abnormalities have colobomas I don't believe the reverse is necessarily true. Some appear to simply be sensitive to light. If Madeleine hadn't yet started school any subtle learning problems might not have come out yet. Any gross learning problems would probably have been mentioned on the news.

[rashomon]

Interesting article:

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article2379833.ece
Thanks for the link, Louisa. Very interesting info, especially, the "questions about the case" section.

Quote from the article:
They met as junior doctors in Glasgow 12 years ago, got together as they travelled in New Zealand and she trained as an anaesthetist before retraining as a GP because, as two hospital doctors, they rarely saw each other.
Hard to imagine that Kate as a trained anesthesist would have overdosed Madeleine on sedatives. On the other hand, it is very strange that the twins slept through it all and didn't even wake up when the police and many other people were milling around in the apartment after the missing alert ...

jmo

[bullmoose]

Thanks for the link, Louisa. Very interesting info, especially, the "questions about the case" section.

Quote from the article:

Hard to imagine that Kate as a trained anesthesist would have overdosed Madeleine on sedatives. On the other hand, it is very strange that the twins slept through it all and didn't even wake up when the police and many other people were milling around in the apartment after the missing alert ...

jmo

It does seem a little odd, doesn't it? Careful Rashie, I can't find anything to dispute in your post. JMHO:biggrin:

[Solace]

It does seem a little odd, doesn't it? Careful Rashie, I can't find anything to dispute in your post. JMHO:biggrin:

I don't know I could see them sleeping especially if they had been playing at the beach all day in the hot son. My son once slept 12 hours straight and we were at a friends house in the throws of a party - he was not in the same room, but he was out. It is possible.:cool:

[Solace]

It does seem a little odd, doesn't it? Careful Rashie, I can't find anything to dispute in your post. JMHO:biggrin:

Not to worry Bull, I have no doubt that one of these days you will see the COMPLETE light. :punch: :patriot: :cool:

[Louisadelmar]

Thanks for the link, Louisa. Very interesting info, especially, the "questions about the case" section.

Quote from the article:

Hard to imagine that Kate as a trained anesthesist would have overdosed Madeleine on sedatives. On the other hand, it is very strange that the twins slept through it all and didn't even wake up when the police and many other people were milling around in the apartment after the missing alert ...

jmo

From the link:
And as they demonstrated last week with the announcement that they are to take legal action against the Portuguese newspaper Tal e Qual, for its allegation that they killed Madeleine with an overdose of sedatives, they will no longer tolerate lurid claims that defame them.

My kids used to be able to sleep on the floor while I vacuumed around them. It depends on how they were raised and how soundly they naturally sleep.

[dallasvic]

I was half watching TV last night (and my husband kept flipping the channels :punch:) they had something on about Maddies case. The part I heard talked about the Police and how they were small time there and have no experience in a case like this. I believe it with all the madness that has come out via the media. I think it was on Larry King Live. I'll see if I can find a source for this.

Hi O2S,

I believe they are small time. I beat they lose their jobs over this and are replaced soon:mad:
It was Larry King Live :D

[TuscanDreams]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283359,00.html

'Police Match Madeleine DNA To Hire Car'

Sky crime correspondent Martin Brunt, speaking from Portimao, said police were "adamant" they had found the most "damning" evidence yet implicating either one or both of the McCanns in their daughter's death.

The evidence came in blood samples returned from the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.

"Police say it is the most damning evidence that has been returned by the tests," Brunt said.

"It shows, as far as they are concerned, the presence of Madeleine's body in the car five weeks after she disappeared."

He continued: "The evidence suggests very strongly that it was not that her DNA had been transferred from clothing or from a cuddly toy.

"The allegation is that the DNA shows a full match of 99%. According to police, it shows the presence of Madeleine's body in the boot of the family's hire car five weeks after she disappeared."

He said the sample of blood sent to the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham carried three matches of Madeleine's DNA.

Two were partial matches that came from the car and the windowsill of the family's holiday apartment.

The third was the full match from the boot of the car.

Makes no sense to me. How'd they hide their daughters RIGID body in front of the media? We have to remember that her tiny body, after 5 weeks, would not have been in the best shape or easy to move. That makes me just sick to post that.

[FDInLaw]

Makes no sense to me. How'd they hide their daughters RIGID body in front of the media? We have to remember that her tiny body, after 5 weeks, would not have been in the best shape or easy to move. That makes me just sick to post that. Been wondering the same thing myself. . . how on earth could they hide her body for the long? It's not like vacation condos come equipped with deep freezers folks (at least not the ones I've seen!).

Thanks for the plethora of updates, Odette! :seeya:

[FDInLaw]

DAD: I'LL USE £1M MADDIE FUND TO CLEAR OUR NAMES

DAILY STAR
By Jerry Lawton
10th September 2007

MADELEINE McCann’s parents are set to use £1million donated by the public to find their child to fund their criminal defence.

Gerry and Kate McCann want to hire a team of top lawyers to fight police allegations they killed their daughter and hid her body.

And the couple plan to use Madeleine’s Fund to pay for it.

The move provoked outrage last night from people who donated cash before the parents were named official suspects.

In messages posted on internet websites many revealed that they planned to demand their donations back.

And some called for the fund to be frozen.

But legal experts said there was little that could be done to stop the McCanns – because the fund is a private business and not a charity. .....

CONTINUED
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/15130/Dad-I-ll-use-1m-Maddie-fund-to-clear-our-names/
I'm still sitting on the fence for the most part, but this does not sit well with me. "IF" the parents are not guilty, they should use the cash to find Maddie! :rose: Throwing in the towel and using it for their defense does not look good IMO. :(

[TuscanDreams]

Thank you so much for the updates, Odette. You rock!

Ok, according to the articles, there must have been a LOT of blood in the room that belonged to Maddie. How could an accident involve so much blood?

This is far too confusing for me. I'm on the fence, but I am with FDLaw- using the money collected to find Maddie, to fund a defense is just plain WRONG! :flamemad:

I'm not convinced that the McCanns are guilty of anything but stupidity.

[One2Snoop]

Ok, I'm not getting this at all. If the McCann's killed their daughter why would they discuss it with anyone via the phone or through emails? That makes no sense. :shrug:

[Devotion]

Hi R,

Here are somethings I have come up with.
If they did do this the only way I see they could have moved a body is if they had a garage to pull the car in and shut the door.

:read: What if:
A Very small body wrapped & tucked in a baby stroller..possible behind the twins & rolled to Church, (they had a key to the Church) and hid somewhere in the cool Church....:read:..jmo

[Devotion]

Ok, I'm not getting this at all.
If the McCann's killed their daughter why would they discuss it with anyone via the phone or through emails? That makes no sense. :shrug:

Let me count what they did that made sense....Hmmmm :shrug: I give up, what ?????...imo

[TuscanDreams]

I FINALLY figured out what's been driving me crazy about blood being found in the trunk of the car, 5 weeks after Maddie died.

Dead Bodies do not BLEED! I understand that the authorities are attempting to state that Maddie must have been wrapped in a blanket or something that transferred blood to the trunk~ but that means that whatever covered Maddie's body had to have blood on it. However, who wouldn't notice the parents carrying a bloody blanket or whatever to their car? I've read on the UK sites that people are accusing the parents of placing Maddie in a gym bag and then disposing of her body, yet, how can that happen 5 weeks later with the entire world watching??

I'm not saying that it's impossible for the McCann's to be guilty, I just don't see it.

[One2Snoop]

Hi R,

Here are somethings I have come up with. If they did do this the only way I see they could have moved a body is if they had a garage to pull the car in and shut the door.

:read: What if:
A Very small body wrapped & tucked in a baby stroller..possible behind the twins & rolled to Church, (they had a key to the Church) and hid somewhere in the cool Church....:read:..jmo


The only problem with that is the smell, unless like FDInlaw said, they kept her in a deep freeze for 5 weeks. :shrug:

[welshjohn369]

The evidence is pityful in terms of trying to place the mother (parents) as primary suspects in the murder of their daughter. Let us not forget:

1. No body had been found yet.

2. The hire vehicle in which the blood was found was not rented until some 3 weeks after Madeline went missing. So either Madeline was still alive then or dead? The parents or friends driving the vehicle would have had to smuggle a body into the vehicle under the noses of the world's media. In addition to this it was the parents who called in the police when tey found Madeline had gone missing. If they were something to do with the ??murder?? then wouldn't it have been more sensible to get rid of the evidence before reporting it to the police, and not after 3 weeks when it is IMO almost impossible to do so!

There are many other areas which should have been covered immediately the abduction was reported. Certainly I would like to think that a complete forensic examination of the room used by Madleline was carried out, including all bedding and even the floor scoured for such items as pubic hair, semen, and blood (more recent than that reported).

The reports now suggest that Madeline could have been abused/murdered in the apartment, so what are the police speculating here? Madleine killed acidentally by the parents (why? How?)? Had they groomed her for a Paedophile? Were they child abusers themselves? What other reason? NONE of the above make sense to me.

I am still studying the entire incident with what reports there are on the internet as until now this incident has been to upsetting. The abduction of one so young and innocent is heartbreaking, but the inadequate and ridiculous laws in Portugal and the ameteurishness of the Police leaves much to ponder.:shrug:

[Devotion]

I agree I believe it would. Good point.:seeya:

:read: The point IS, DNA can be gotten from old or new, wet or dried blood..
Don't forget, It only takes a Q-tip size amount of blood...imo

[Athena]

I suppose the good news is if they are going to be charged under Portugese law it has to be done within 10 days of being named a suspect.

This whole case is so confusing and the reports are conflicted.

Sorry for being so dumb but could someone tell me where the "boot" of a car is located?

[odette]

I suppose the good news is if they are going to be charged under Portugese law it has to be done within 10 days of being named a suspect.

This whole case is so confusing and the reports are conflicted.

Sorry for being so dumb but could someone tell me where the "boot" of a car is located?

US = Trunk
UK = Boot

[One2Snoop]

I suppose the good news is if they are going to be charged under Portugese law it has to be done within 10 days of being named a suspect.

This whole case is so confusing and the reports are conflicted.

Sorry for being so dumb but could someone tell me where the "boot" of a car is located?

It's the trunk, I believe.

[Devotion]

MADDY MUM: EVERY DAY IS A NIGHTMARE

Monday August 13,2007
By David Pilditch in Praia da Luz
Daily Express

BRITISH police have found a second trace of blood at the apartment where Madeleine McCann was snatched, it emerged yesterday.

The blood is alleged to have been discovered by sniffer dogs on a curtain in the bedroom of her parents, Kate and Gerry.

Continued at this link: MADDY MUM: EVERY DAY IS A NIGHTMARE (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/16319/Maddy-mum:-Every-day-is-a-nightmare)

[/B]

:read: childs blood on the bedroom curtains of the parents
what if:
1. the child was hurt & bleeding/ killed in the parents bedroom
2. one of the parents had blood on their hands and closed the curtains
3. the childs blood was somewhere on a parent and they looked out the bedroom window, to see if anyone heard anything, thus getting blood on the curtain.
4. the child was carried past the curtain.....jmo

[Devotion]

I agree FDInLaw.
The pictures certainly paint a different story.
I can't help but wonder why they didn't get a babysitter or hire a nanny?

:shrug: I just don't understand, WHY wasn't any of that group using the FREE babysitting service?
Being doctors, they could afford to pay a sitter, and this would NOT have happened...IMO

[Devotion]

Madeleine: Hunt for body moves to church where McCanns prayed[/

[B]The church which provided sanctuary for Kate and Gerry McCann is about to become the focus of the search for their daughter's body.

Police and forensic teams are preparing to go into Our Lady of the Light Roman Catholic church in Praia da Luz as part of a renewed attempt to find Madeleine - or any clues to her disappearance.

The McCanns were given keys to the small sandstone church soon after their daughter disappeared on May 3, and told they could visit whenever they wanted.

Now police are investigating whether the building and its Vaults could reveal any trace of the missing four-year-old.

Whether the McCanns hid anything in there is understood to have been one of the questions they were asked during hours of police interviews last week.

It was the local priest, Jose Manuel Pacheco, who gave the couple keys to the building.

He is reported to have asked for them to be returned before the McCanns left Portugal.

Police have also applied to dig up a large area near the church,

particularly a cobbled road that had deep excavations around it at the time Madeleine disappeared. .....

CONTINUED
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481124&in_page_id=1811

:rose: SMART LE, vaults have very cool temperatures...imo

[Devotion]

I suppose the good news is if they are going to be charged under Portugese law it has to be done within 10 days of being named a suspect.

Sorry for being so dumb but could someone tell me where the "boot" of a car is located?

:patriot: Could it possibly be the scouped out area, where the "Spare- tire" fits in the trunk?...jmo

[Athena]

It's the trunk, I believe.

Thanks One2. That was my guess as well but I just wasn't sure. Even did a search and all that came up were those contraptions they put on your car when towing it.

Devotion -- I guess that spot could be the "boot" too. Ok - so I guess we are all in agreement it's part of the trunk or the trunk. :)

BTW - love your avatar One2. :rose:

[Athena]

From the link:
And as they demonstrated last week with the announcement that they are to take legal action against the Portuguese newspaper Tal e Qual, for its allegation that they killed Madeleine with an overdose of sedatives, they will no longer tolerate lurid claims that defame them.

My kids used to be able to sleep on the floor while I vacuumed around them. It depends on how they were raised and how soundly they naturally sleep.

The sun can knock them out too and they were in a resort.

[Athena]

Controversial past of policeman leading the McCann investigation
By Amol Rajan in Praia da Luz
Published: 11 September 2007

As the Portuguese press continued to round on the McCanns yesterday, newspaper columns remained pointedly silent on a separate investigation into the police officer leading the hunt for Madeleine.

Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2950302.ece

[One2Snoop]

NY TIMES/UK:

The Key Questions:

~What happened in the four hours before Madeleine was reported missing?

~Why did Kate McCann cry out “They’ve taken her?” when she discovered Madeleine missing?

~What were the movements of the McCann’s friends on the night Madeleine disappeared?

~How much alcohol did the McCanns and their friends drink on the evening Madeleine disappeared?

~Why was Madeleine’s bedroom window and shutter open?

~Why did Madeleine’s sister and brother sleep through her “abduction”?

~Why were the McCanns allowed to leave Portugal if they are suspects?

~Why has it taken so long to find the evidence that could implicate Kate and Gerry McCann?

~What evidence were police looking for?

~What is the most important new evidence?

~Does any trace of Madeleine in the hire car prove she was killed?

~What about the discoveries of the “cadaver” sniffer dog?

~Any evidence of Madeleine’s death on Cuddle Cat?

~What evidence can be found in Mrs McCann’s Bible?

~Why are the McCanns suspects in their daughter’s killing?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2422967.ece?token=null&offset=24

I'd like to add a question or two of my own to this list....

~Were all employees of the resort thoroughly investigated, including maids, maintance workers, grounds keepers, etc....

~Did anyone who worked for the resort suddenly quit or disappear without notice?

[Charon]

There's a number of things that upped the red flag for me in this case:

1. Finding DNA of the victim(NO MATTER THE QUANTITY) in a vehicle, hired 25 days after the disappearance:

* Yes blood sollidifies post mortem but, stomach/intestine contents turns to soup and leaks profusely. This WILL contain DNA.
* Finding the evidence UNDER the carpet (upholstery) in the trunk (boot) is pretty indicative of an act of HIDING something. The only thing that will fit under that carpet, and only in the sparewheel cavity, will and should be a spare wheel.
*Transferring DNA by means off trace evidence on the child's clothing to the trunk of the car, begs explenations as to why they would drive around with her clothes/toys/personal artifacts in the boot of their car, hiding it where the spare wheel should be.

Finding the victim's DNA in that car is definitely a big question mark.

2. The police is pressing her (mother) to admit to ACCIDENTAL MANSLAUGHTER.

*Why that crime in particular? Because the cops are not disclosing strong evidence that this is the case. Somehow they found that to be true and thought that by confronting the mom with this, would have her cracking. She did however not, and they wasted their ACE. There are much more than meets the eye IMO.

3. The parents are now geared for DEFENCE. Their lost child does not anymore apear to be the main issue and self preservation has taken to the forefront. They are even prepared to use funds for recovery of the child, to keep their irrisposible buts out of jail.

4. You do NOT leave a country where your child went missing without that child or her remains. You have 1 million to your disposal to find her and to whether the storms. You stay put and do what it takes to recover her.

Sorry, but I smell a rat.

[docwho3]

I think we should be prepared for a suicide watch. One needs to be set in motion soon if not already in place. If the parents are guilty of some sort of wrongdoing the pressures are immense and one or more of them could crack under the strain. The remaining children may also be in danger.

[TuscanDreams]

Sources today told the Evening Standard Newspaper: "Some of the samples of DNA were taken from hair which match Madeleine's DNA. There was so much hair it could not be from DNA transference but from the body being in the boot."

The source said that DNA from bodily fluids also found in the boot of the Renault Scenic car, hired by Kate and Gerry McCann 25 days after her disappearance, was a "90 per cent match" rather than the 100 per cent being widely reported.

OK, now that we know her hair was in the trunk~ that's a problem for the parents. I don't think the bodily fluids are significant amounts- like I said, dead bodies don't bleed.

Years ago, when I was an EMT, calls were made to do standbys when police found a murder victim, sometimes the body had been there for quite some time. So, we did standbys, but it was in case family members or police officers on the scene needed assistance. Not that this is any bragging moment of any type, but I've seen my fair share of dead bodies and I'm here to tell ya that this scenario doesn't fly that is being released.

Tell me what you all think. Are the Portugese police trying to claim that the parents kept their daughter alive and hidden, then killed her and stuffed her body in a trunk? All this in full view of the media?

The hair is important, I'll give them that one.

[rashomon]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/10/40-questions-they-both-refused-to-answer-89520-19762031/

40 questions they both 'refused to answer'

By Ryan Parry And Lucy Thornton 10/09/2007
Gerry and Kate McCann refused to answer 40 questions when interrogated by detectives about Madeleine's disappearance, Portuguese media claimed yesterday.

Kate was said to have become "nervous" when told experts had discovered blood matching Madeleine's DNA profile.

Several Portuguese papers quoted unnamed police sources as saying Kate became "angry and upset" during her two days of questioning and said police were unhappy at the couple's refusal to reply.

When confronted about the discovery of blood in Madeleine's bedroom, it was claimed Kate gave "evasive replies" before stating "it could be from a wound or a nose".

They wrote: "Kate was informed the blood was Madeleine's - as a corpse. She insisted this was impossible and became nervous."

One paper claims the police "took advantage of the moment of weakness to confront her with the blood stains found in the car hired 25 days after Maddy's disappearance. Kate became upset and stated that she would not answer any more."

It was at this stage that officers said she had to answer their questions unless she asked to become "a suspect" in the case.

Under Portuguese law a "suspect" has the right to remain silent - but if they are a witness every question has to be answered.

It is claimed Kate said it was "absurd" to be named a suspect but after a dinner break and a phone call to Gerry, she agreed.

"When she came back the climate had gone cold," the Diario De Noticias newspaper said. Another paper wrote of the second session of questioning: "She again got irritated with the questions."

One paper wrote: "Investigators told her accidents happen and when they do they are very lenient. There were more questions about the blood in the car and at the stage Kate stopped answering anything at all."

Re-interviewed on Friday, she again refused to answer questions about the blood.

Gerry was interviewed straight after Kate in an even "harder" interrogation.

Inspectors asked him if he had hidden the body. Maddy's father answered almost nothing and was described as "very angry".

Sources claim "the greatest suspicion has fallen upon Maddy's mother".

"Officers said her replies left a lot to be desired," it was claimed.

Overall the detectives concluded they they did not have a "great response" during the interviews because of "the couple's silence during 40 questions".

It was also reported two British sniffer dogs, one trained to react to the smell of a corpse and the other to traces of blood, showed "excitement" at the same spot in the apartment.

I'm continually wavering back and forth in this case as to whether the parents were involved or not.
A big disadvantage is that all news are provided through the media only, and not through direct police statements.

jmo

[Tober]

Quote from the article:

Hard to imagine that Kate as a trained anesthesist would have overdosed Madeleine on sedatives.

Under "normal" circumstances, yes. However, they did lie about the amount of wine they had. IMO

[Louisadelmar]

Under "normal" circumstances, yes. However, they did lie about the amount of wine they had. IMO

What is the proof they lied?

[andU]

This case is now ALL OVER the US news. They are reporting that both parents have been officially classified as suspects.

There was one report that Maddie's parents intentionally drugged the children so that "they could go out and party". I have a hard time believing that for a number of reasons. For one thing, both of these parents are physicians and EVEN IF they made the horrid decision to sedate their children, they would surely know the appropriate dosages of meds to give. There was a case in Chicago a few years ago where the babysitter gave 3 children sleeping pills and accidentally OD'ed the infant. Certainly physicians would or should know how to give an appropriate dose based on the pts weight. So that theory just isnt adding up for me.

Also, Jay I agree with you WRT the alleged blood in the car that they rented 25 days AFTER Maddie went missing. Are they suggesting that Madeleine's parents stashed her body somewhere during that first 25 days when they were surrounded by media and police?? Why not just dump the body THEN call police? Where were they hiding the body? Something is amiss here. Things just aren;t adding up...

p.s. Hi AndU, nice to see you posting here!

Hi Elvis! So good to see you, too!

[andU]

I'm sickened by the way this case is going. One things is for sure - I won't be choosing Portugal anytime soon for a vacation!

The media here is reporting that Kate was threatened that if she didn't "confess" to killing Madeleine, then she and Gerry would both be charged and locked up without bail with no hope of a trial for at least a year.

I have the same sick, sinking feeling, Jayelles. I'm not going abroad anywhere!
I also heard last night (I think Nancy Grace (I don't normally watch her)) that because the parents are suspects they cannot access the monies that have been donated to the cause of finding Maddie.

[One2Snoop]

OK, now that we know her hair was in the trunk~ that's a problem for the parents. I don't think the bodily fluids are significant amounts- like I said, dead bodies don't bleed.

Years ago, when I was an EMT, calls were made to do standbys when police found a murder victim, sometimes the body had been there for quite some time. So, we did standbys, but it was in case family members or police officers on the scene needed assistance. Not that this is any bragging moment of any type, but I've seen my fair share of dead bodies and I'm here to tell ya that this scenario doesn't fly that is being released.

Tell me what you all think. Are the Portugese police trying to claim that the parents kept their daughter alive and hidden, then killed her and stuffed her body in a trunk? All this in full view of the media?

The hair is important, I'll give them that one.

Maybe the hair came from a hair brush? Or some of Maddie's hair stuck to the sides of their suitcases, it could've been hair that had fallen on the floor and transferrered to their belongings as they moved out of the flat or possibily it came from a blanket Maddie used. I can think of lots of ways the hair got there. I don't think its a red herring at all.
IMO, JMO.

Did they take hair samples from the twins to compare?

[One2Snoop]

Bodily Fluids - Not Blood - In McCann Car

SKY NEWS
Updated: 15:12, Tuesday September 11, 2007

Bodily fluids - not blood - matching Madeleine McCann's DNA have been found in the car hired by her parents, according to Sky sources.

The news comes as Portuguese prosecutors received all of the files of evidence on the McCanns from police investigating the four-year-old's disappearance. .....

CONTINUED
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283521,00.html

The sample was taken from the boot, where the spare tyre is kept.

It had an 88% match with the missing four-year-old's DNA, sources said.

88% is not 99.9% which was reported earlier. Secondly, was there no spare tire in vehicle?

[bullmoose]

What is the proof they lied?

I'm very certain that we will soon be titillated with inside details of the Portugese investigation by our peerless co-poster; all such details unknown to any verifiable source, of course. I been down this road before, we've been teased by our old pal again and again in the Jonbenet case; this case has eerie similarities in the way the the Portugese version of the BPD has reacted to their botching of the case. If I didn't know better, I would swear they were working from a script, one from ten years ago in Boulder. JMHO ;)

[Mysteri]

It's time the Mc Cann's confessed. LE has already said it was an accidental killing, not a murder. I am not personally convinced of that. I think they were anxious to get out of the flat and Maeleine wouldn't settle down . I think she was frightened of being left alone so much and made her parent(s) angry by refusing to cooperate for yet another night out.

The other two children need to be placed with family members as an extra precaution.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481028&in_page_id=1811&ct=5


imo

[rashomon]

Under "normal" circumstances, yes. However, they did lie about the amount of wine they had. IMO

The tapas bar staffs' receipts allegedly show the party of nine ordered 14 bottles of wine, but the McCanns claim it was only three bottles shared beween nine people.
If was actually 14 - that would be one a half bottle per person, downed in a short time. Under these circumstances, I doubt that the Tapas 9 had the discipline to check on their children as regularly as they claim to have, for they must have been pretty tipsy to downright drunk, depending on their individual tolerance to alcohol. And that does not count in possible afternoon cocktails the may have had before.
On the other hand, Gerry McCann, shortly after 9 pm, met another vacationer with whom he had played tennis and chatted a few words with him. It is not reported that Gerry appeared to be in any way intoxicated. Or Kate, when she reported Madeleine missing at 10 pm.
Also, they seem to have taken part in some kind of quiz on that evening, so they must have had their senses somewhat together.

jmo

[Mysteri]

Just to add from the Daily Mail report above:

"Although there was no official confirmation the police sources also alleged that the samples came directly from Madeleine's body and had not been passed on via her clothes or toys. The new reports follow yesterday's strong rebuttal of claims that test results sent to Portugal by forensics experts at Birmingham were flawed."

[Mishell1383]

But yet blood is taken off the curtains? So she either died of an accidental overdose or was killed in a bloody manner!? MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MINDS! :cuss:

[One2Snoop]

But yet blood is taken off the curtains? So she either died of an accidental overdose or was killed in a bloody manner!? MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MINDS! :cuss:

I know, it's frustrating isn't it? :mad:

I just thought of another question. The blanket this woman saw a young girl being carried away in, was it ever accounted for? Were there any missing blankets from the flat?

[rashomon]

I have read somewhere in the many media articles published on the forums that the police are convinced they have collected very incriminating material against the McCanns (e. g. tapped phone calls), and are now livid that the suspects haven't been arrested and charged, but were allowed to leave. They believe the McCanns' Portuguese lawyer struck some kind of deal with certain members of LE to make that possible.
The massive file has now been handed over to the DA's office (I don't know how the Portuguese word for it), and it seems to be in their power to decide on further proceedings.
If they feel that charges are warranted, they should go ahead, if not, everything should be done on LE's part to clear the McCanns a suspects. The worst which can happen is if they are neither cleared nor arrested. For then we will end up with yet another Ramsey-type case.

jmo

[Mysteri]

Yes, I think the police are sending out mixed signals. They don't want their quarry to go into hiding. They must know it wasn't an 'accident.' Surely the Mc Cann's aren't daft enough to try to cover an accident, no matter how terrible!

imo

[LindaA]

14 bottles of wine? A different number -- 10 I think -- was reported on Nancy Grace the other night. 1/2 a bottle per person doesn't seem like so much if drunk during a meal. I guess we may never know the truth about that little detail.

I'm waffling on this one at this point.

[Devotion]

It's time the Mc Cann's confessed.
LE has already said it was an accidental killing, not a murder.
I am not personally convinced of that.

I think they were anxious to get out of the flat and Maeleine wouldn't settle down .
I think she was frightened of being left alone so much and made her parent(s) angry by refusing to cooperate for yet another night out.

The other two children need to be placed with family members as an extra precaution.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481028&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

imo
:patriot: I AGREE...imo

[Devotion]

But yet blood is taken off the curtains?
So she either died of an accidental overdose or was killed in a bloody manner!?
MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MINDS! :cuss:

:shrug: WHY hide the child if it was an accident???
The only reason I can think of is, certain injuries LE will find on the child...imo

[Mysteri]

:shrug: WHY hide the child if it was an accident???
The only reason I can think of is, certain injuries LE will find on the child...imo

Exactly ! She has gone missing because her little body would speak volumes.:flamemad:


imo

[Jayelles]

I have the same sick, sinking feeling, Jayelles. I'm not going abroad anywhere!
I also heard last night (I think Nancy Grace (I don't normally watch her)) that because the parents are suspects they cannot access the monies that have been donated to the cause of finding Maddie.

Todays news is mixed. The Daily Mail is reporting that the DNA is 100% match. The BBC is reporting that the Portuguese police are backing off from saying that the DNA is a match at all. A British expert is saying that the sample is incomplete and could well belong to one of the twins.

Social Workers were also reported to be visiting the McCanns to review the situation. This is a routine thing and is always done if a child's parents are suspected of committing a serious crime. Three things could happen, 1) nothing 2) the twins could be placed on the "At Risk" register or 3) they could be taken away and placed in care.

The Daily Mail also reported that the McCanns have hired a couple of Big Gun lawyers with an impressive portfolio (Pinochet is one). They are apparently specialists in criminal law and in extradition cases.

Breaking news at tea time says that the case papers have been handed to a Portuguese judge and he has 10 days to make a decision.

[Its just me]

Large amount of Madeleine's hair 'found in tyre well in boot of parents' hire car'

DAILY MAIL
Last updated at 18:03pm on 11th September 2007

• Portuguese prosecutors pass case file onto senior judge
• Madeleine's body 'carried in car storage space'
• Bodily fluids found in tyre well were that of 'a decomposing corpse'
• Leicestershire's top detective visits McCanns' home

• Gerry's blog: last few days have been emotionally draining .....

CONTINUED
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481028&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

This is horrible just following. I pray I don't have to eat my previous words. A question if anyone can answer. Where did Maddie's DNA come from the police are using to match with the evidence IJM

[Athena]

Large amount of Madeleine's hair 'found in tyre well in boot of parents' hire car'

DAILY MAIL
Last updated at 18:03pm on 11th September 2007

• Portuguese prosecutors pass case file onto senior judge
• Madeleine's body 'carried in car storage space'
• Bodily fluids found in tyre well were that of 'a decomposing corpse'
• Leicestershire's top detective visits McCanns' home

• Gerry's blog: last few days have been emotionally draining .....

CONTINUED
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=481028&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

Wow - if this is true - not looking good. JMO :rose:

[Jayelles]

The tapas bar staffs' receipts allegedly show the party of nine ordered 14 bottles of wine, but the McCanns claim it was only three bottles shared beween nine people.
If was actually 14 - that would be one a half bottle per person, downed in a short time. Under these circumstances, I doubt that the Tapas 9 had the discipline to check on their children as regularly as they claim to have, for they must have been pretty tipsy to downright drunk, depending on their individual tolerance to alcohol. And that does not count in possible afternoon cocktails the may have had before.
On the other hand, Gerry McCann, shortly after 9 pm, met another vacationer with whom he had played tennis and chatted a few words with him. It is not reported that Gerry appeared to be in any way intoxicated. Or Kate, when she reported Madeleine missing at 10 pm.
Also, they seem to have taken part in some kind of quiz on that evening, so they must have had their senses somewhat together.

jmo


The newspapers did report this here but they said the receipts showed that 14 bottles of wine had been sold to the group between their lunch and dinner time meals at the pool bar. A bottle of wine is about 5 glasses (it's supposed to be 6 but they'd have to be awfy wee glasses).

[Its just me]

Sky News Video
Madeleine File Is Passed To Portuguese Judge
Portuguese prosecutors have handed a file on missing Madeleine McCann to a judge, meaning her parents could hear within 10 days whether they will face charges. Sky News Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt has the latest
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,91210-1283666,.html


Parents can hear within 10 days whether they will face charges. Included in an article provided by odette (Thanks sweetheart) it states the Judge has up to one year to file charges. So it can be a long wait.

A very sad situation whether innocent or guilty. IJM

[Louisadelmar]

The newspapers did report this here but they said the receipts showed that 14 bottles of wine had been sold to the group between their lunch and dinner time meals at the pool bar. A bottle of wine is about 5 glasses (it's supposed to be 6 but they'd have to be awfy wee glasses).

I wondered whether there was a time discrepancy for the counting. I hope the police aren't trying to build up a case against the parents in the eyes of the public through innuendo and tricky phrasing.

[Jayelles]

I wondered whether there was a time discrepancy for the counting. I hope the police aren't trying to build up a case against the parents in the eyes of the public through innuendo and tricky phrasing.

The problem is, that while we are waiting for news from Portugal, the papers start to speculate and report garbage. All cleverly phrased. Of course, the fact that this is a Portuguese case means that it's exempt from our pro-judice laws (I think) so there's more speculative garbage in the papers than we'd ever normally see.

I cannot begin to imagine what they must be going through.

[elvislives]

If I were the McCanns I would hire NecroSearch. They NEED to find the body if they are to be cleared imo.

It seems unbelievable to me that 2 mds would overdose their child. I also have a hard time believing that 2 mds EVEN IF they were disposing of a body would have been careless enough to leave traces of body fluids in the trunk. (BTW Jay, I am assuming the "boot' of a car is the same as the trunk. Please correct me if I am wrong). But every physician knows about universal precautions and cross contamination. Not to mention that they would be rather foolish to be transporting and dumping a body with the police and the press swirling all around.

Something is amiss in this case.

I'll never say never, but I have a VERY hard time believing that these parents killed their daughter. Jay, what is the consensus in the UK? Are people supporting them or turning on them?

[Louisadelmar]

They say they didn't give their children sedatives. If they had, wouldn't that show up in the hair that was supposedly found in the car?

[elvislives]

This is horrible just following. I pray I don't have to eat my previous words. A question if anyone can answer. Where did Maddie's DNA come from the police are using to match with the evidence IJM

I've wondered this myself. Usually when there is no body the police take dna from both parents to to compare to any sample found --they can then determine that the dna is from the child of these 2 parents.
E.G. in the Scott Peterson case, they had no reference sample of dna to compare to the baby. They could only conclude that the fetus that washed up was the offspring of Scott and Lacy Peterson.
But the McCanns have 3 children. It was reported that the body fluids tested were an 80% match to Madeleine. An 80% match could belong to one of her siblings. Does anyone know if dna was collected from the twins?

[elvislives]

They say they didn't give their children sedatives. If they had, wouldn't that show up in the hair that was supposedly found in the car?

Not necessarily. It would depend on a number of factors. If the McCanns had been chronically sedating their children for some length of time, then it would show up. But if this was a single isolated event where they drugged their children on the night in question, then it would not show up in the hair. It may show up in the hair follicle, but even that is unlikely if it was a single event.

It also would depend on the class of drugs that was used. I know for sure that opiates will show up in hair/hair follicles but if they used a more benign drug like diphenhydramine (Benadryl) I'm not so sure.

I also have a very hard time believing that 2 physicians would accidentally overdose their child. jmo

[TuscanDreams]

Not sure, but I know that in many DNA cases, the parents contribute blood samples and that is compared to the DNA of their missing child. That could be the case here, I really don't know.

It's looking bad for the McCann's, yet nothing stands out as screaming, "Oh yeah, they killed her."

The hair in the trunk is a problem, but aside from the sedatives and bad judgment on the part of the parents, I don't see them as culpable.

[TuscanDreams]

Maybe the hair came from a hair brush? Or some of Maddie's hair stuck to the sides of their suitcases, it could've been hair that had fallen on the floor and transferrered to their belongings as they moved out of the flat or possibily it came from a blanket Maddie used. I can think of lots of ways the hair got there. I don't think its a red herring at all.
IMO, JMO.

Did they take hair samples from the twins to compare?

I think that would depend on the volume of hair found. If it's as much as say a couple of handfuls, that's a problem. If it's just a number of strands, so what.

This case is so hard to follow, regarding the reliability of the information, maybe there was only 5 hair strands found and overblown to sell more news papers. :shrug:

[TuscanDreams]

Thanks for the link, Louisa. Very interesting info, especially, the "questions about the case" section.

Quote from the article:

Hard to imagine that Kate as a trained anesthesist would have overdosed Madeleine on sedatives. On the other hand, it is very strange that the twins slept through it all and didn't even wake up when the police and many other people were milling around in the apartment after the missing alert ...

jmo


In the other thread in this forum, there is an article posted by Odette (gotta love her hard work!) that reveals the parents admitted giving sedatives to their kids. I want to know if they were given via a hypodermic needle or orally.

[bullmoose]

I went to a wedding party once, where the groom had agreed to pay the club for the kegs of beer drank; oddly the club charged him for enough kegs to have floated a navy, approximately two gallons per man, woman and child. It was a good party, but we figured the bill was inflated by 100%, at least. I just wonder if something similar happened here. If the bottles of wine were 750ml bottles and nine people drank 14 bottles, there would have been a bunch of inebriated people there; which is not what was reported, a bunch of screaming drunks. 11 liters of wine is the eqivalant of a half a bottle of hard whiskey each. I just wonder if the wine tally, if as reported, was grossly inflated by the resort. Thats an awful lot of wine, IMHO.:eek:

[bullmoose]

In the other thread in this forum, there is an article posted by Odette (gotta love her hard work!) that reveals the parents admitted giving sedatives to their kids. I want to know if they were given via a hypodermic needle or orally.

Do you have a link for this admission by the parents? This is the first I've heard this. JMHO

[odette]

I think that would depend on the volume of hair found. If it's as much as say a couple of handfuls, that's a problem. If it's just a number of strands, so what.

This case is so hard to follow, regarding the reliability of the information, maybe there was only 5 hair strands found and overblown to sell more news papers. :shrug:

In the TELEGRAPH article which I posted earlier it mentions that there was quite a lot of hair found. One of the things that bothers me is that the hair was found "under the carpet" which covers the area where the spare tire is stored in the boot/trunk.

Q&A: The DNA evidence

TELEGRAPH
Last Updated: 8:50pm BST 11/09/2007

EXCERPT
"It was also claimed that large quantities of Madeleine's hair were in the car - so much, in fact, that it could only have come directly from her body, rather than being deposited by "secondary transfer" from her clothes or possessions."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/11/wmaddy1111.xml

[rashomon]

Not necessarily. It would depend on a number of factors. If the McCanns had been chronically sedating their children for some length of time, then it would show up. But if this was a single isolated event where they drugged their children on the night in question, then it would not show up in the hair. It may show up in the hair follicle, but even that is unlikely if it was a single event.

It also would depend on the class of drugs that was used. I know for sure that opiates will show up in hair/hair follicles but if they used a more benign drug like diphenhydramine (Benadryl) I'm not so sure.

I also have a very hard time believing that 2 physicians would accidentally overdose their child. jmo
I too am racking my brain as to how on earth the police got the idea that the McCanns sedated their children.

- Was it pure speculation on the part of the police because they thought it strange that the twins slept throught it all, even after the missing alert when many people were around?

- Were there traces of sedatives found in Maledeien's blood/body fluids allegedly retrieved both from the apartment scene and the boot of the car?
[BTW Elvislives: British English 'boot' = American English 'trunk']

- were there opened packages of sedatives found in the apartment?
Highly unlikely imo, for if the McCanns were that sophisticated to either hide or dispose of a body under such circumstances, then they sure would be sophisticated enough to flush down packages and their treacherous content down the toilet long before calling the police.

- did the police (who allegedly tapped their phone calls) get this evidence via the conversations overheard?

jmo

[bullmoose]

I think that would depend on the volume of hair found. If it's as much as say a couple of handfuls, that's a problem. If it's just a number of strands, so what.

This case is so hard to follow, regarding the reliability of the information, maybe there was only 5 hair strands found and overblown to sell more news papers. :shrug:

So far, I don't see any case to prosecute. Playing the case to the press seems more the work of a desperate bunch of cops trying to claim a solved case, rather than a solved case. JMHO

[Louisadelmar]

Do you have a link for this admission by the parents? This is the first I've heard this. JMHO

I'd like to see that too. What I've read is they denied it.

[Jayelles]

The reports I've read have all said they denied sedating their children.

Yes EL, boot = trunk. According to the BBC news, there is a majority of support here. Everyone is talking about it here and I've only encountered one person who hummed and aahhed about parental involvement. Having said this, the lady in quesiton is someone whom I try to avoid getting caught by because she can talk for Britain! So our discussion was extermely brief as I suddenly remembered a pressing need to do something (and escape!).

I don't believe for a minute that the McCanns sedated their children by injection. I've heard of people giving their children a couple of spoonfuls of Calpol to "sedate" them (i.e. settle them). Calpol is paracetemol - a painkiller. If a child is grizzly or a bit feverish and restless it can often do the trick.

The crunch about the syringe is that it was supposed to have been found in a wardrobe in the apartment just a few weeks ago. I'm pretty sure if the McCanns had been trying to hide a guilty secret they'd have gotten rid of the offending syringe! Hang of a lot easier to dispose of a syringe than a body :-(

[bullmoose]

I too am racking my brain as to how on earth the police got the idea that the McCanns sedated their children.

- Was it pure speculation on the part of the police because they thought it strange that the twins slept throught it all, even after the missing alert when many people were around?

- Were there traces of sedatives found in Maledeien's blood/body fluids allegedly retrieved both from the apartment scene and the boot of the car?
[BTW Elvislives: British English 'boot' = American English 'trunk']

- were there opened packages of sedatives found in the apartment?
Highly unlikely imo, for if the McCanns were that sophisticated to either hide or dispose of a body under such circumstances, then they sure would be sophisticated enough to flush down packages and their treacherous content down the toilet long before calling the police.

- did the police (who allegedly tapped their phone calls) get this evidence via the conversations overheard?

jmo

No doubt as the case is laid out against them, in the courts, not the press, much of what you wonder will become much clearer. Right now, to me it seems like a PR exercise by the Portugese police to try to spook the parents into some kind of a plea deal; but who knows? JMHO:shrug:

[rashomon]

If I were the McCanns I would hire NecroSearch. They NEED to find the body if they are to be cleared imo.
ITA. They absolutely need to find and examine the body. What special equipment does NecroSearch have as opposed to regular police searching for a body?
It seems unbelievable to me that 2 mds would overdose their child. I also have a hard time believing that 2 mds EVEN IF they were disposing of a body would have been careless enough to leave traces of body fluids in the trunk.
Elvislives: the traces could have been so minuscule that they may not have been visible to the naked eye (dried body fluid for example), especially if it was in the trunk (British English: 'boot') of the car where it is difficult to inspect every nook and cranny.
But every physician knows about universal precautions and cross contamination.
The possibility of cross contamination or secondary transfer could actually be used to exonerate the McCanns in a possible trial. For example, they could have transported Maddie's clothes in the trunk when moving out of the apartment, and if it was only dried bodily fluids which were found in the car, then the prosecution would have a very hard time in proving that they were the result of a crime.
But has been said that the police, when interviewing Kate McCann, showed her over and over again the pictures of the sniffer dogs having found cadaver scent in the hire car. If it actually was cadaver scent, this can't be explained away that easily.
What is also strange: didn't Gerry McCann's sister Philamena say the family hired the car immediatlely after their arrival in Portugal? I read this on another forum and will try to get the source if necessary.

Not to mention that they would be rather foolish to be transporting and dumping a body with the police and the press swirling all around.
I can't imagine them doing that either.
Something is amiss in this case.
ITA. The whole scenario just doesn't fit together. There are to many missing links, at least at this point of the investigation.
I'll never say never, but I have a VERY hard time believing that these parents killed their daughter.
I too have a very hard time believing that. Not because I think loving parents couldn't have done this (for enough loving parents have killed their children in criminal history, acidentally or on purpose), but because imo the time line (which involved incredible risks of being seen) would make it near-impossible for the McCanns to have carried it all out.

jmo

[bullmoose]

[QUOTE=rashomon;8980479][QUOTE=elvislives;8980348]If I were the McCanns I would hire NecroSearch. They NEED to find the body if they are to be cleared imo.


Evislives: the traces could have been so minuscule that they may not have been visible to the naked eye (dried body fluid for example), especially if it was in the trunk (British English: 'boot') of the car where it is difficult to inspect every nook and cranny.

The possibility of cross contamination or secondary transfer could actually be used to exonerate the McCanns in a possible trial (for example, they could have transported Maddie's clothes in the trunk when moving out of the apartment, and if it was only dried bodily fluids which were found in the car, then the prosecution would have a veryhard time in proving that they were the result of a crime.
It has been said that the police, when interviewing Kate McCann, showed her over and over again the pictures of the sniffer dogs having found cadaver scent in the hire car. If it actualy was cadaver scent, can't be explained away that easily.
What is also strange: didn't Gerry McCann's sister Philamena say the family hired the car immediatlely after their arrival in Portugal? I read this on another forum and will try to get the source if necesarry


I can't imagine them doing that either.

ITA. The whole scenario just doesn't fit together. There are to many missing links, at least at this point of the investigation.

I too have a very hard time believing that. Not because I think loving parents couldn't have done this (for enough loving parents have killed their children in criminal history), but because the time line imo would make it near-impossible for the McCanns to have carried it all out in such a short time span.

jmo[/QUOTE I could see the RDI case in the Jonbenet case as very convincing compared to what I'm seeing in the case of Madeline McCann so far; and you know how I feel on that one. :biggrin: JMHO

[Jayelles]

They hired the car 25 days after Madeleine went missing. Their holiday would have been for 7, 10, 11 or 14 nights (as per normal package holidays). By my reckoning, that means that they would not have arranged the car shortly after arriving since they wouldn't have expected to be there 25+ days later.

[Athena]

Judge Asked For Emergency Order

SKY NEWS
Updated: 22:40, Tuesday September 11, 2007

The public prosecutor in Portugal is reported to have asked the judge in the Madeleine McCann case to make an emergency order allowing him to seize a mystery object.

It is not known what or where the object is but the prosecutor has asked the judge to issue an order allowing him to have it within 24 hours.

Sky News crime correspondent Martin Brunt said: "The prosecution has asked the judge for an emergency order to give them permission to go and seize it.

"We do not know where or what it is, whether it is in this country or whether it is something perhaps the McCann family are refusing to hand over." .....

CONTINUED
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283521,00.html

Maybe it's Cuddly Cat?

[Athena]

Do you have a link for this admission by the parents? This is the first I've heard this. JMHO

Meanwhile, Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias said Saturday that Kate and Gerry McCann had admitted having given Madeleine, and her twin siblings, two-year-olds Sean and Amelie, sedatives on the night of May 3.


http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/225572/ROUNDUP_Madeleine_McCann_s_parents_now_suspects_to _fight_on_

[Athena]

Detectives are convinced that Mrs McCann was in some way linked to the accidental death of her daughter, and that she and her husband then disposed of the body.

Hair and bodily fluids have been found in the boot of the car the McCanns hired shortly before visiting the Pope at the Vatican. Police have said that the hair in the Renault Scenic is too much simply to have been transferred on Madeleine’s clothing and other belongings when the couple moved to a villa in the resort.

One trace of bodily fluids has an 88 per cent match with the child, rather than the 100 per cent match as earlier reported, detectives said in an off-the-record briefing on Monday night. They denied that blood traces had been found.

f the judge approves new searches they will focus on the streets around the church in Praia da Luz, the resort where Madeleine vanished shortly before her fourth birthday. Police sources told local newspapers that the child’s body could have been concealed in the area, where roadworks were being completed, in the days after her disappearance before being later moved.

The McCanns went to pray for their daughter after her disappearance in the village’s 18th-century church, Nossa Senhora da Luz. Within an hour of reporting the child missing they asked for the local Catholic priest and a few days later were given keys to the church so they could visit at any time.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2434668.ece

[Athena]

Ben Affleck has offered to withdraw his latest film amid concerns that the Disney production, about the abduction of a four-year old girl, could prove insensitive.

In Gone Baby Gone, Affleck’s directorial debut, the girl is snatched from her bed as her mother leaves her alone in the house. The child actress playing the role, Madeline O’Brien, is said to bear a similarity to Madeleine McCann. The film is due to open in Britain on November 23.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2434668.ece

[Athena]

From the same article above:

Ben Affleck has offered to withdraw his latest film amid concerns that the Disney production, about the abduction of a four-year old girl, could prove insensitive.

In Gone Baby Gone, Affleck’s directorial debut, the girl is snatched from her bed as her mother leaves her alone in the house. The child actress playing the role, Madeline O’Brien, is said to bear a similarity to Madeleine McCann. The film is due to open in Britain on November 23.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2434668.ece

[TuscanDreams]

Meanwhile, Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias said Saturday that Kate and Gerry McCann had admitted having given Madeleine, and her twin siblings, two-year-olds Sean and Amelie, sedatives on the night of May 3.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/articl...to _fight_on_

This is from an article Odette posted. The news isn't always reliable, so who knows if they said they gave them sedatives or not? :shrug:

[TuscanDreams]

In the TELEGRAPH article which I posted earlier it mentions that there was quite a lot of hair found. One of the things that bothers me is that the hair was found "under the carpet" which covers the area where the spare tire is stored in the boot/trunk.

That is troubling.

The things that point towards their innocence are that they totally cooperated with the authorities and the fact that the hair was found several weeks after Maddie disappeared. I just don't think the parents could have hidden a body and disposed of it while the world watched.

[Its just me]

In the TELEGRAPH article which I posted earlier it mentions that there was quite a lot of hair found. One of the things that bothers me is that the hair was found "under the carpet" which covers the area where the spare tire is stored in the boot/trunk.



I'm just a common minded person but that is the kind that sits on a jury.

Hair being under the carpet and boot area is a concern to me but maybe for different reasons that it just being there. The car was not rented until days after Maddie went missing. If Maddie was killed the night she went missing the body had to have been moved to the car later. Unless preserved it don't take long for a body to start to deteriorate. With that said I can't believe Maddie would have been transferred to the car unwrapped to allow a large amount of hair to get in the boot. JMOO and I just can’t grasp the parents doing this yet. IJM

[TuscanDreams]

During an 11-hour interrogation, Kate's Bible, for heaven's sake, was used as proof against her because one passage about a sick child was crumpled.

Since when in the Western world are devout Christians considered suspicious for reading the Bible?


As a Christian, I can attest that it is politically correct to bang up on us. :rolleyes:

[bullmoose]

Meanwhile, Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias said Saturday that Kate and Gerry McCann had admitted having given Madeleine, and her twin siblings, two-year-olds Sean and Amelie, sedatives on the night of May 3.


http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/225572/ROUNDUP_Madeleine_McCann_s_parents_now_suspects_to _fight_on_

The newspaper said they admitted giving sedatives; but to whom did they admit it to? Portugese police by law can't release evidence; is it just me or does all this sound very much like the crap the newspapers and tabloids were being leaked by the BPD and LE in Boulder? Lurid details sneakily leaked in what seems to be a Public Relations campaign does not impress me in the least. Give me facts, Diario de Noticias!!!, not crap!! JMHO, though.

[elvislives]

This is from an article Odette posted. The news isn't always reliable, so who knows if they said they gave them sedatives or not? :shrug:


Thats for sure. I am suspicious of some of the leaks in this case.
Shortly after Madeleine was reported missing, there was a leak from 'an official police source' that they had "clear and convincing evidence that she was abducted by a pedophile ring". I remember asking my husband, what kind of evidence would convince them she was abducted by a pedophile ring??
Apparently this was just a false report. Hard to tell what is reliable and what isn't in this case.

[TuscanDreams]

Meanwhile, Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias said Saturday that Kate and Gerry McCann had admitted having given Madeleine, and her twin siblings, two-year-olds Sean and Amelie, sedatives on the night of May 3.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/articl...to _fight_on_

This is from an article Odette posted. The news isn't always reliable, so who knows if they said they gave them sedatives or not?

As for the Ben Affleck movie, I hope it airs. It could bring more attention to this case- which sounds odd, I realize, but considering that most of the people who were in Portugal on vacation when Maddie vanished- maybe this will spark a memory of something.

[elvislives]

I'm just a common minded person but that is the kind that sits on a jury.

Hair being under the carpet and boot area is a concern to me but maybe for different reasons that it just being there. The car was not rented until days after Maddie went missing. If Maddie was killed the night she went missing the body had to have been moved to the car later. Unless preserved it don't take long for a body to start to deteriorate. With that said I can't believe Maddie would have been transferred to the car unwrapped to allow a large amount of hair to get in the boot. JMOO and I just can’t grasp the parents doing this yet. IJM

Exactly. These were parents who were educated about cross contam. Hard to believe they would transport her body without bagging it.

[TuscanDreams]

The newspaper said they admitted giving sedatives; but to whom did they admit it to? Portugese police by law can't release evidence; is it just me or does all this sound very much like the crap the newspapers and tabloids were being leaked by the BPD and LE in Boulder? Lurid details sneakily leaked in what seems to be a Public Relations campaign does not impress me in the least. Give me facts, Diario de Noticias!!!, not crap!! JMHO, though.

I stopped following the Ramsey case years ago, but I think that the BPD and Lou Smit can both thank themselves for letting a murderer go free.

It's my hope that the parents won't be charged if they are innocent, obviously. I do'nt see anything that stands out as the "aha" moment.

[bullmoose]

Exactly. These were parents who were educated about cross contam. Hard to believe they would transport her body without bagging it.

Its incomprehensible how the couple, if guilty of anything beyond leaving their children unattended; could have hidden the body so well so long but then would transport it from where to where without carefully bagging it to keep the odor of decomposition from permanently marking the car as unusable. This case, as its being presented in the press, stinks to high heaven, and not from a childs body. It smells of horseplop desperation by a frustrated police force unable to solve a strange case. JMHO:eek:

[Louisadelmar]

This is from an article Odette posted. The news isn't always reliable, so who knows if they said they gave them sedatives or not?

As for the Ben Affleck movie, I hope it airs. It could bring more attention to this case- which sounds odd, I realize, but considering that most of the people who were in Portugal on vacation when Maddie vanished- maybe this will spark a memory of something.

Unfortunately if it airs I think it is more likely to muddy people's memories.

Particularly if the two little girls look alike.

[elvislives]

[QUOTE=rashomon;8980479 ITA. They absolutely need to find and examine the body. What special equipment does NecroSearch have as opposed to regular police searching for a body? ]

I'm going off memory here, but I know they use highly trained bloodhounds. The 'sniffer' dogs I saw in this case appeared to be German Shepherds who have a less discriminating sense of smell than blood hounds. They also use specialized aircraft, geophysics, entymology, weather etc. They usually work in conjunction with LE to locate a body dump site, as finding dead bodies is their specialty.

[QUOTE=Elvislives: the traces could have been so minuscule that they may not have been visible to the naked eye (dried body fluid for example), especially if it was in the trunk (British English: 'boot') of the car where it is difficult to inspect every nook and cranny]

Exactly. The whole premise of universal precautions is that pathogens,etc are not visible to the naked eye. That is why physicians are trained to protect both themselves and the pt by wearing masks, gloves, caps, gowns, scrubs, shoe covers, etc. They KNOW that there will be cross contamination that they can't see. Thats why I find it so hard to believe some of these reports. Its inconcievable that they didn't bag the body.

[QUOTE=I too have a very hard time believing that. Not because I think loving parents couldn't have done this (for enough loving parents have killed their children in criminal history, acidentally or on purpose), but because imo the time line (which involved incredible risks of being seen) would make it near-impossible for the McCanns to have carried it all out. ]

A VERY narrow window of time, not to mention their post crime behavior. It can certainly be argued that the Ramseys acted suspiciously after the murder of JB but the McCanns were cooperating fully AND keeping focus and pressure on this investigation. Why not just keep a low profile and hope the whole thing blows over as an unsolved abduction? Doesn't make sense imo.

[elvislives]

I too am racking my brain as to how on earth the police got the idea that the McCanns sedated their children.

- Was it pure speculation on the part of the police because they thought it strange that the twins slept throught it all, even after the missing alert when many people were around?


jmo


If they suspected that the twins had been sedated, they could have taken blood samples from them to confirm it. This case is not adding up to me. It really looks like it may be turning into another JBR case.

[elvislives]

Here's some additional info: http://www.necrosearch.org/

[One2Snoop]

Its incomprehensible how the couple, if guilty of anything beyond leaving their children unattended; could have hidden the body so well so long but then would transport it from where to where without carefully bagging it to keep the odor of decomposition from permanently marking the car as unusable. This case, as its being presented in the press, stinks to high heaven, and not from a childs body. It smells of horseplop desperation by a frustrated police force unable to solve a strange case. JMHO:eek:

I totally agree bullmoose.

[Tober]

I too am racking my brain as to how on earth the police got the idea that the McCanns sedated their children.

- Was it pure speculation on the part of the police because they thought it strange that the twins slept throught it all, even after the missing alert when many people were around? jmo

Yes Rash, that was part of it. Also, when Kate allegedly discovered Maddy missing, she went back to the restaurant and said something to the effect of "They took her." What raised suspicion among LE is that this statement of hers indicates she thought Maddy had been kidnapped, yet she leaves the other children there while she goes back to the restaurant to tell the others. Did she not awaken them because she couldn't, due to the sedation? This is further supported by what you noted, they didn't awake even with all the comotion. Gerry has since admitted they sedated the kids. I also believe LE was tipped off to this, which is why Gerry later admitted it. IMO

[Devotion]

The newspapers did report this here but they said the receipts showed that 14 bottles of wine had been sold to the group between their lunch and dinner time meals at the pool bar.
A bottle of wine is about 5 glasses (it's supposed to be 6 but they'd have to be awfy wee glasses).

If the 9 people did not drink the 14 bottles of wine, what did they do with it?..moo

[Mishell1383]

none of this adds up, none of this makes sense. None of it :shrug:
Just not logical on most points

[DigitalDreamKat]

Exactly. These were parents who were educated about cross contam. Hard to believe they would transport her body without bagging it.

Assuming that they were in their right mind at the time. Not saying they are guilty, but I am saying just because they are doctors, it doesn't mean they have all their bases covered.

I doubt very much that Maddie was dead and put into the car. I was in Portugal at the end of May/beginning of June and it was hot! Not trying to be brutal, but the smell of decomposition would have been extremely obvious within a day or two.

All, as usual, JMO.

[DigitalDreamKat]

If the bottles of wine were 750ml bottles and nine people drank 14 bottles, there would have been a bunch of inebriated people there; which is not what was reported, a bunch of screaming drunks. 11 liters of wine is the eqivalant of a half a bottle of hard whiskey each. I just wonder if the wine tally, if as reported, was grossly inflated by the resort. Thats an awful lot of wine, IMHO.:eek:

One night, my DH and two of our friends went through TEN bottles of wine (and that was only four of us) (it was a heck of a night, I tell you!) Do I remember the evening? Clearly! The others don't :) Alcohol, as has been said, effects everyone differently. I actually have the ability to be able to largely negate the effects of alcohol, if I choose to do so.

Also, having been in Portugal (and, incidentally, close to the time of all of this happening), I can't see the scenario of the bill being grossly inflated.

I've said in the other thread on this case, there is just far too much of he said, she said, they said in this case.

All, as usual, JMO :)

[sharlock]

How do we get this thread moved so it can be over with the rest of the Maddie news? I thought we were the only ones interested in this case but I just discovered a whole Madeliene forum in the 'Missing Children' section.
You would need to request that from FreshWater Elvis.
The Australian news seems to be reporting on this without so much speculation at the moment. They are saying that sources say the evidence located in the rental car included a large amount of Maddies hair and that under the carpet in the boot of the car were body fluids. This source claims those fluids are the fluids you would find in a dead body not a live one and that the police are now searching the church where the Mcanns were frequenting everyday as there was construction being done at the church and they think it would be the most likely place where the childs body could have been hidden. They are quick to point out that there info has come from sources not the police and that makes reporting on the case very difficult.
In regards to those case papers they say that the portugal police could have held onto and poured over them for up to 8mths but by handing them over to the Judge as they did last night the Judge will have to make his decision within 10 days as stated in Portugese Law. At least this will mean an end to the speculation which will be best for everyone including Maddies parents.

[FDInLaw]

Will tests on hair be key clue?

DAILY MIRROR - From Ryan Parry in Praia da Luz - 12/09/2007

Tests on hair found in the boot of Kate and Gerry McCann’s hire car after daughter Madeleine vanished may hold the key to her disappearance.

The Mirror revealed on Monday that bodily fluid and hair belonging to the four-year-old were found in the Renault Scenic they rented 25 days after she disappeared.

Police told Portuguese media yesterday that substantial quantities of hair were found in the car boot – and toxicology tests had taken place to show if she had been given medication. It could also show if Madeleine was dead when the hair got there.

But police admitted last night that bloodstains in the car are NOT a match to Madeleine’s DNA.
Advertisement

It had been claimed that the samples had provided a “100 per cent” match.

But a senior police source linked to the investigation told Portuguese journalists that the samples were only 88 per cent similar.

And Alipio Ribeiro, head of Portugal’s Policia Judiciaria, said: “It is not true what has been said about some of the analyses ... that a 100 per cent or total DNA match has been obtained.

“None of the results we have received give that mathematical precision.”

Experts at the Forensic Science Service in Britain are understood

to have found partial matches with up to 15 of Madeleine’s 20 genetic markers. A partial match with 10 out of 20 markers has a 10,000 million to one chance of being somebody else’s DNA and a 250,000 to one chance of being a sibling.

Detectives were confident that the samples back their theory that Madeleine was killed accidentally and that her parents – who were declared suspects last week – used the car to move the body.

But they admitted they do not have enough evidence to bring a successful prosecution.

The bulk of the DNA evidence is now with the investigating judge and the results of tests on other samples are still expected.

But Mr Ribeiro added: “These results have to be analysed rigorously and with special care.”

Portuguese coroner Jose Pinto da Costa supported the police case by saying a 25-day-old corpse would be in reasonable enough condition to still bleed.

He said: “Putrification gases from inside the body would push up the diaphragm and blood can come out through the mouth and the nose.” The coroner said a forensic laboratory can just as easily analyse a dry blood sample, adding: “If mummies can be identified, why can’t they identify corpses?” .....

CONTINUED
Will tests on hair be key clue? (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2007/09/12/will-tests-on-hair-be-key-clue-89520-19779056/)

This sentence really struck me. The way LE interrogated Kate made me suspect that they really needed her to confess. :rose:

Thank you, once again, for all the updates Odette. You're a gem! :seeya:

[Its just me]

Prayers for these 2 people. Such a horrible position to in. I believe in innocent until proven guilty and my jury is waiting for the evidence.

In a report it states the investigators are confident the the evidence will prove their theory that this was an accidental death by the mother. Now isn't science a wonderful asset. Test now can determine accidental deaths from murder without a body. Am I missing something here or just plain dumb and have no knowledge of science. Can some kind person please explain. IJM

[Jayelles]

If the 9 people did not drink the 14 bottles of wine, what did they do with it?..moo

Who is saying they didn't drink the wine?:confused:

[FDInLaw]

MADELEINE: NEW ROADS TO BE DUG UP IN SEARCH

DAILY EXPRESS - By Martin Evans - Wednesday September 12,2007

DETECTIVES hunting for Madeleine McCann were last night preparing to excavate an area around the church in Praia da Luz where they believe the little girl could be buried. .....

CONTINUED
MADELEINE: NEW ROADS TO BE DUG UP IN SEARCH (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/18978/Madeleine-New-roads-to-be-dug-up-in-search)

http://i13.tinypic.com/5xt7x3r.jpg
HAVEN: Gerry and Kate at the church
where police will search for a bodyGosh, wouldn't it be something if Maddie was found at the church? Sorta like an Agatha Christie novel! I do hope Maddie is found and that there is some closure. I still don't know what to think about the parents being involved. Glad to hear that there will be more tests run on the car. Has anything been said about the McCanns continuing their search for Maddie? Are they just on the defensive now?

[rashomon]

[Bullmoose]
I could see the RDI case in the Jonbenet case as very convincing compared to what I'm seeing in the case of Madeline McCann so far; and you know how I feel on that one. JMHO
Do a little litmus test: what would your opinion on the McCann case be if Madeleine's dead body had been found in the holiday apartment together with a ransom note of which Mrs. McCann could not be excluded as the author?
The newspaper said they admitted giving sedatives; but to whom did they admit it to? Portugese police by law can't release evidence; is it just me or does all this sound very much like the crap the newspapers and tabloids were being leaked by the BPD and LE in Boulder? Lurid details sneakily leaked in what seems to be a Public Relations campaign does not impress me in the least. Give me facts, Diario de Noticias!!!, not crap!! JMHO, though.
Compared to the torrent of all kinds of 'info' leaked by Portuguese police sources (despite being prohibited by law to do so), the leaks from the Ramsey investigation appear almost harmless.

For in the McCann case, the public is constantly being served cocktails of "info", and the ingredients of the cocktails vary from day to day.
Typical example: this weekend, virtually every paper published the news: "DNA is not a conclusive match". Two days later: "DNA is a hundred per cent match!" Which is it now? What will they say tomorrow?

[Jayelles]

Gosh, wouldn't it be something if Maddie was found at the church? Sorta like an Agatha Christie novel! I do hope Maddie is found and that there is some closure. I still don't know what to think about the parents being involved. Glad to hear that there will be more tests run on the car. Has anything been said about the McCanns continuing their search for Maddie? Are they just on the defensive now?

No the've said they are keen to co-operate fully with the police investigation so that the focus can move back to finding Maddie asap. Gerry's sister Philomena has said that if they are charged then it will give them a chance to clear their names and resume the search for Maddie.

This was on the BBC radio news.

[rashomon]

A VERY narrow window of time, not to mention their post crime behavior. It can certainly be argued that the Ramseys acted suspiciously after the murder of JB but the McCanns were cooperating fully AND keeping focus and pressure on this investigation. Why not just keep a low profile and hope the whole thing blows over as an unsolved abduction? Doesn't make sense imo.
I'm just hypothesizing (I'm a fence-sitter in this case), but suppose they were involved, maybe they thought publicly pointing the finger in the "other direction" - an abduction - would work. Keep the whole world breathessly busy trying to find "a living" Madeleine, so no one would have the time to look at the parents.
It did strike me as a bit odd that they went from the shock of the abduction into high gear at once, perfectly organizing the search campaign. Most other parents in their situation would probably not have been able to do anything in those first few days and weeks, and would have needed psychologists to attend to them. But as doctors, they were probably used to dealing with extremely stressful situations. Also, they had their small twins to care for, so they could not allow themselves to be totally immersed in their grief.

I used to interpret the parents' hectic activity after Madeleine's disappearance in part as a subconscious psychological countermeasure which served the purpose of numbing their own feelings of guilt over having let their children unattended. I can't even begin to think that they may have hidden a far more sinister feeling of guilt with their activity ...

But as long as conclusive and officially confirmed evidence is not laid out in the open, I don't want to jump to any premature conclusion either way.

jmo

[elvislives]

Assuming that they were in their right mind at the time. Not saying they are guilty, but I am saying just because they are doctors, it doesn't mean they have all their bases covered.

I doubt very much that Maddie was dead and put into the car. I was in Portugal at the end of May/beginning of June and it was hot! Not trying to be brutal, but the smell of decomposition would have been extremely obvious within a day or two.

All, as usual, JMO.

True but all the while they were in and out of police interviews, holding press conferences, starting the 'Find Madeleine' campaign, visiting with the NCMEC, putting up posters, recieving friends and family at their villa, taking care of their twins, and all the while they were being followed around constantly by photographers and reporters.

If during all this, they were ALSO busy transporting and dumping an unwrapped dead body in the stifling heat, they are both deserving of Oscars imo.

[elvislives]

I'm just hypothesizing (I'm a fence-sitter in this case), but suppose they were involved, maybe they thought publicly pointing the finger in the "other direction" - an abduction - would work. Keep the whole world breathessly busy trying to find "a living" Madeleine, so no one would have the time to look at the parents.
It did strike me as a bit odd that they went from the shock of the abduction into high gear at once, perfectly organizing the search campaign. Most other parents in their situation would probably not have been able to do anything in those first few days and weeks, and would have needed psychologists to attend to them. But as doctors, they were probably used to dealing with extremely stressful situations. Also, they had their small twins to care for, so they could not allow themselves to be totally immersed in their grief.

I used to interpret the parents' hectic activity after Madeleine's disappearance in part as a subconscious psychological countermeasure which served the purpose of numbing their own feelings of guilt over having let their children unattended. I can't even begin to think that they may have hidden a far more sinister feeling of guilt with their activity ...

But as long as conclusive and officially confirmed evidence is not laid out in the open, I don't want to jump to any premature conclusion either way.

jmo
This is exactly the reason why I struggle with using behavior as a science. Personal experience plays a large part in interpreting or perhaps misinterpreting someone's behavior.

I didn't find this odd at all and would have done exactly the same thing. Many people, myself included, channel their feeling of stress, anxiety, grief, etc into action. That is how they deal with it. John Walsh reacted the same way when his son Adam was abducted.

[elvislives]

Prayers for these 2 people. Such a horrible position to in. I believe in innocent until proven guilty and my jury is waiting for the evidence.

In a report it states the investigators are confident the the evidence will prove their theory that this was an accidental death by the mother. Now isn't science a wonderful asset. Test now can determine accidental deaths from murder without a body. Am I missing something here or just plain dumb and have no knowledge of science. Can some kind person please explain. IJM

I can't think of any forensic test that could determine that a death was accidental without a body to examine.

I was presuming that the 'evidence' they have that the death was accidental was gleaned thru wiretapped phone conversations or something.

But again I think at this point and time you have to take all the news reports with a grain of salt. A LOT of misinformation is being reported.

[Devotion]

Madeleine's parents consider new fund for legal battle

Times Online - Adam Fresco and David Brown in Praia da Luz - September 12, 2007

The parents of Madeleine McCann may set up a separate fighting fund to pay mounting legal costs as they seek to defend themselves against accusations they were involved in her death.

Kate and Gerry McCann have appointed top lawyers in Portugal and Britain after being named as formal suspects in their daughter’s disappearance.

They have said that they will not use the fund set up to find Madeleine, which now has more than £1 million in it,

but a family source told Times Online today that setting up a new fund “was one of the options they may well look at”. .....

CONTINUED: Madeleine's parents consider new fund for legal battle (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2439634.ece)

:read: Question: If the LE find the childs body, can the 1 Million $$ go to the LE there to help pay their expenses in this case?....jmo

[andU]

I think we should be prepared for a suicide watch. One needs to be set in motion soon if not already in place. If the parents are guilty of some sort of wrongdoing the pressures are immense and one or more of them could crack under the strain. The remaining children may also be in danger.

I agree. Oh! I pray that these parents are not part of this child's demise!

[Jayelles]

Q&A session with a forensic expert:-

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/law_order/why+is+madeleines+hair+so+important+/792847

Q. Can they tell whether Madeleine was alive or dead?

A. The DNA samples themselves cannot tell us whether they came from a live or dead source - but they can be used to identify whether or not they came from Madeleine. Alan Baker, a forensic scientist who has given expert evidence on the subject of DNA in court cases said:

"DNA itself would not tell you if that person is dead or alive. If it was associated with bone fragments or a piece of tissue, that is another story."


This webpage also addresses the issue of whether they'd be able to detect the presence of sedative:-

Some experts argue that the state of decomposition of the hair samples themselves, could show whether they were taken from a living person or not. Hair taken from a deceased person decays in a different way to hair from a live person, but this could be affected by other factors - such as the temperature of the surrounding air.

Finally, the hair follicles themselves may also be able to identify whether or not any drugs were present in the body. It has been suggested that Madeleine was sedated, and if so evidence of the drugs may have transferred quickly to the roots of the hair.

[FDInLaw]

Madeleine campaign will not fund legal battle

(CNN) -- The parents of missing four-year-old Madeleine McCann will not use public donations raised to help find the little girl to fund their legal battle, a spokesman for the parents has said. .....

CONTINUED: Madeleine campaign will not fund legal battle - updated 52 minutes ago (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/12/madeleine.mccann/#cnnSTCText)

Good. That's the right thing to do. :beer:

[andU]

In the TELEGRAPH article which I posted earlier it mentions that there was quite a lot of hair found. One of the things that bothers me is that the hair was found "under the carpet" which covers the area where the spare tire is stored in the boot/trunk.

Sounds like a 'plant' or (and this is a shot in the dark) that the perp put her in that car and then made certain that when the parents rented a car that it was the very one used by the perp that they received. (Well, I said it was a long shot).

[Riviera]

Please take note---->

Changes have been made to the Madeliene McCann forum. This thread is to be used for discussion and the thread titled "CL:Madeliene McCann/News Updates Only" is for news updates.

The reason this change was made was due to discussion getting lost amongst all the updates being posted.

Thank you
R

[elvislives]

Sounds like a 'plant' or (and this is a shot in the dark) that the perp put her in that car and then made certain that when the parents rented a car that it was the very one used by the perp that they received. (Well, I said it was a long shot).

I can't understand why a dead body would be shedding so much hair.

Also, Jay asked this question before, but I don't recall reading an answer: Who had possession of that rental car on the day Maddie went missing? Does anyone know?

And fwiw, I think jumping to conclusions is a dangerous game. I've read and heard a lot of people condemning these parents based on what is being reported in the news. I remember when Mary Lacy announced that they were extradicting a suspect in the Jonbenet Ramsey case. I was sure that they MUST have some irrefutable evidence against JMK. I presumed they had a DNA match---that they surreptitiously obtained his dna thru a discarded cup or cigarette and it matched the sample from the crime scene. Surely they would not be so foolish as to make a public international spectacle unless they had damning evidence against him. But sure enough, they WERE that foolish. They were relying on the 'confession' of a total nutjob. Things arent' always what they appear to be.

[andU]

I can't understand why a dead body would be shedding so much hair.

Also, Jay asked this question before, but I don't recall reading an answer: Who had possession of that rental car on the day Maddie went missing? Does anyone know?

And fwiw, I think jumping to conclusions is a dangerous game. I've read and heard a lot of people condemning these parents based on what is being reported in the news. I remember when Mary Lacy announced that they were extradicting a suspect in the Jonbenet Ramsey case. I was sure that they MUST have some irrefutable evidence against JMK. I presumed they had a DNA match---that they surreptitiously obtained his dna thru a discarded cup or cigarette and it matched the sample from the crime scene. Surely they would not be so foolish as to make a public international spectacle unless they had damning evidence against him. But sure enough, they WERE that foolish. They were relying on the 'confession' of a total nutjob. Things arent' always what they appear to be.

I couldn't agree more, Elvis. I don't usually trust what I don't know and foreign laws differ much from ours here in the US, as I'm sure they do in UK. If LE have dug deep enough to find who had rented that car on the day of Maddie's dissapearance, they aren't saying so; or if they had even checked out the owner of the rental cars to see what type of background he/she/they have. I just don't trust anything anymore. ...nor can I understand why a body would shed hair. If the body had been deceased for a period of time (say three weeks), would the hair losen and shed?

[bullmoose]

I can't think of any forensic test that could determine that a death was accidental without a body to examine.

I was presuming that the 'evidence' they have that the death was accidental was gleaned thru wiretapped phone conversations or something.

But again I think at this point and time you have to take all the news reports with a grain of salt. A LOT of misinformation is being reported.
Out here in the great Northwest of the USA; 40 lb. blocks of salt are put out for elk, moose, deer, etc. in the woods; IMO the news reports deserve not a grain but a block of salt. So far, what I'm seeing smacks of desperation by the portugese police. Shades of Boulder, indeed, JMHO

[Jayelles]

I can't understand why a dead body would be shedding so much hair.

Also, Jay asked this question before, but I don't recall reading an answer: Who had possession of that rental car on the day Maddie went missing? Does anyone know?
And fwiw, I think jumping to conclusions is a dangerous game. I've read and heard a lot of people condemning these parents based on what is being reported in the news. I remember when Mary Lacy announced that they were extradicting a suspect in the Jonbenet Ramsey case. I was sure that they MUST have some irrefutable evidence against JMK. I presumed they had a DNA match---that they surreptitiously obtained his dna thru a discarded cup or cigarette and it matched the sample from the crime scene. Surely they would not be so foolish as to make a public international spectacle unless they had damning evidence against him. But sure enough, they WERE that foolish. They were relying on the 'confession' of a total nutjob. Things arent' always what they appear to be.


I haven't read anything about that. They must be able to tell from their records. These resorts tend to have numerous places from where you can rent a car but I don't know how big Praia da Luz is or how likely it is that the killer and her parents would end up with the same car on hire. Lots of Brits hire cars for a day or two on a package holiday in order to explore a bit.