Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 3)

[Riviera]

---->Natalee Holloway II The disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba

[Chocoholic]

Dang, my reply is going to have to wait until later, but I know how everybody looks forward to my POV. Hang in there :biggrin:

[fairmaiden]

Let's be clear

Calling Joran etc. murderers, rapists, criminals - It is very common for the last person to see a person who then goes missing to be considered a POI. That some have reached a conclusion of foul play by these POIs is fine. Just state it as YOUR OPINION. Whether you agree or not - it is equally logical to assume Natalee did not run away but meet with foul play. If she met with foul play it is logical to assume that those last in her company might well have done something to her. State opinions as such and there will be no issues here.

Talking about Natalee giving Joran a blow job - OK but so what? Even if I were to assume this is true it most certainly would not imply that if some thing tragic happened to Natalee (say rape) that even instigating a BJ would make raping her OK. Rape is an act of violence not sex and even if a woman is naked on a beach - no man has a right to rape her. period. Blaming the victim just doesn't fly - and no I am not saying that Natalee was a victim of foul play but if this is your position (no crime committed) then don't IMPLY that if there was a crime somehow she deserved it.

Natalee was secretly a prostitute - No way!!! Again this is baseless and victim bashing. I will not allow it.


Jug talking about Natalee's privates - OK let's say that Jug was sexually molesting his step daughter (this is a BIG IF by the way....) but so what... He wasn't in Aruba at the time of the disappearance. If you want to assume that an incestuous relationship existed and that Natalee planned to run away in Aruba because of it then I would think there would have been some planning on Natalee's part. Any additional evidence that she planned to leave? Do you all believe that Beth Twitty would not call JUG out in public if she even suspected any wrong doing on his part? For those that think BHT would go there with Joran et al. without "proof" you don't think she would go there with her ex husband if she even remotely suspected? How about Dave Holloway? Do you think he would remain silent if there was even a suspicion on his part? If you do then make your case and stated it as your opinion only.


Follow the Rules/Play Nice

Freshwater

Thank you for this, FW. I think it's unfortunate that every once in a while we "messageboard posters" need to be called upon to act like adults.

You are correct when you say the discussion becomes very unproductive. Those of us who have more or less followed this case from the beginning have formed opinions, and more or less stayed with them. This has been a long case, and because it happened in Aruba, we are not privy to a lot which might have taken place .... taking us to the point of so many unanswered questions. What we DO know however, is that we have a list of "suspects" ((POI's)) .... some of which have spent time in jail, presumably have been interrogated over a period of months .... then they were released. From what WE ((messageboard posters)) know, there is no evidence of any crimes. Again .... this could be something messageboard posters just don't know.

The problem I have is .... Beth became very involved in this case, from the beginning. Obviously, she WOULD, because her daughter is missing .... her involvement is understandable .... however, her ACTIONS are not, IMO .... for example, requesting a boycott of Aruba, being one . Calling people "criminals" before anything has been proven .... broadcasting to anyone who cares to listen that her daughter has been kidnapped, gangraped, and her life "taken" from her .... INVITES criticism, since NONE of that has been proven.

It's interesting to discuss that Natalee might have voluntarily left, and that she might have taken the opportunity to do so while she was in Aruba. IF this was being done very clandestinely on Natalee's part .... no one would really KNOW of any plans she might have made. She very well MAY have made them, and we just are not aware of them. After all, this could have been something she was going to do very secretly.

There is absolutely no doubt .... Joran et al seem to be the last KNOWN people Natalee was with. There is absolutely no doubt those three lied about the events of that night. There are approximately 6 - 7 other "suspects" though. Do we know that their statements are truthful ?? What has to be taken into consideration though, at least I think so, is that Natalee's mother has told different versions of the same occurrence. That, in itself, is odd to me. For the life of me, I can't understand why that would be necessary.

The latest venture of Beth's .... she has written a book, telling the "true story of the kidnapping in Aruba" ((may be para.)). My question is .... how does she KNOW the true story .... why hasn't she TOLD the "true story" until now .... who told HER the true story ?? We know she wasn't there. She has said, along with other members of her family, that they are not being filled in with every detail of the investigation .... how would she know the truth ??

Hopefully, come November .... this case will either be dropped, or brought to trial .

JMO

[HiLife]

I am sure Beth will NEVER allow this case "to be dropped, " just because some Aruban court thinks it should be dropped. No one would expect anything less from a mother who loves her child and wants those who disappeared her brought to justice.

The statements from J2K are a lesson in lying. Nothing is corroborated and there is STILL no final story as to how the main suspect, Joran, even arrived home. If the other suspects were dropped, then their statements must have rung true to both the ALE and KLPD (haven't they been lauded as a stellar police force?). IMO, it is not possible for so many others to achieve the level of lying produced by J2K.

J2K were last seen with Natalee. J2K derailed the investigation with their callous lies. How?

Who could be so cold-hearted as to send frantic parents on a wild goose chase to the Holiday Inn with their FIRST lie, thereby wasting what everyone knows are the most crucial opportunities to find any missing person?

Another huge product of their vile lying, was that precious time was lost, even to review film taken along Joran's supposed walking route home. It was noted that usually these places erase the tapes by the second day. Thanks to J2K lies, they ruined any chance of investigators conducting their investigation.

J2K's lying and several conflicting stories/statements/scenarios scream out that they are hiding something. Innocent people do not need to lie like this. Innocent people (or anyone with a conscience) do not purposefully hinder an investigation regarding a missing person. I can't even imagine what kind of black-hearted soul would do this.

It is my fervent wish that the monster(s) who harmed Natalee, whoever they may be, never know a moment of peace.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Fairmaiden, thank you for your delightful and insightful response. KUDOS to you girl!

"Vile" lies?

Hmm Let's start here.

J2K were called criminals. They aren't. Not by anybody's standards, unless one wishes to go so low as to stoop to bht's level and even she had to publicly apologize for that lie.

Natalee is virginal and doesn't drink. Oh oops she drinks responsibly. Oh oops she doesn't drink responsibly. She was carried into her hotel room in at least once by one of the MB male students.

Natalee drank so responsibly she just started first thing in the morning and her fellow students told her to slow down.

Natalee was so virginal that she had a bet going with her friends as to whom she was going to hook up with.

Dave says he has a life insurance policy on Natalee, bht says it doesn't exist. Who is lying?

An eight year full ride scholarship for a supposedly bright student for a four year course of pre-med?

I could go on, but continuing to talk about the endless vile ies that bht has told becomes boring.

Why would the mother of a missing woman lie?

Links available at scrux and other internet sources.

[HiLife]

Beth could bathe in ice cream, walk across America on her hands or sit on a rock gazing out at the sea from sunup to sundown. Point here is that Beth's actions have no bearing on Natalee's disappearance. It is a FACT that Beth, or any other Holloway/Twitty parental sphere, has nothing to do with Natalee's disappearance. The family know things and experienced things we messageboard posters cannot possibly know.

Accusations of Beth lying is a concerted attempt to deflect from the real issue and suspects. I'll go one further. Even if Beth were found to be a pathological liar (like Joran), it STILL wouldn't matter a whit. Has no bearing on this case. Beth, Jug, Dave, Robin, Marcia et al were not on Aruba. It is common knowledge that LE looks at the last person(s) seen with the victim.

It is THEIR actions that must be scrutinized, focused on and examined under a microscope. THEIR lies that must be parsed and questioned. Instead of focusing on such a non-issue, as Natalee's family who were in Alabama at the moment J2K left with Natalee, it would be much more productive (if indeed, the hope is to find Natalee) to focus and examine the actual suspects and their myriad, as of this day, unexplained lies.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Let's be clear

Calling Joran etc. murderers, rapists, criminals - It is very common for the last person to see a person who then goes missing to be considered a POI. That some have reached a conclusion of foul play by these POIs is fine. Just state it as YOUR OPINION. Whether you agree or not - it is equally logical to assume Natalee did not run away but meet with foul play. If she met with foul play it is logical to assume that those last in her company might well have done something to her. State opinions as such and there will be no issues here.

Talking about Natalee giving Joran a blow job - OK but so what? Even if I were to assume this is true it most certainly would not imply that if some thing tragic happened to Natalee (say rape) that even instigating a BJ would make raping her OK. Rape is an act of violence not sex and even if a woman is naked on a beach - no man has a right to rape her. period. Blaming the victim just doesn't fly - and no I am not saying that Natalee was a victim of foul play but if this is your position (no crime committed) then don't IMPLY that if there was a crime somehow she deserved it.

Natalee was secretly a prostitute - No way!!! Again this is baseless and victim bashing. I will not allow it.


Jug talking about Natalee's privates - OK let's say that Jug was sexually molesting his step daughter (this is a BIG IF by the way....) but so what... He wasn't in Aruba at the time of the disappearance. If you want to assume that an incestuous relationship existed and that Natalee planned to run away in Aruba because of it then I would think there would have been some planning on Natalee's part. Any additional evidence that she planned to leave? Do you all believe that Beth Twitty would not call JUG out in public if she even suspected any wrong doing on his part? For those that think BHT would go there with Joran et al. without "proof" you don't think she would go there with her ex husband if she even remotely suspected? How about Dave Holloway? Do you think he would remain silent if there was even a suspicion on his part? If you do then make your case and stated it as your opinion only.


Follow the Rules/Play Nice

Freshwater

Some good points and questions.

Although the point is often made that J2K lied, it doesn't make sense that they lied about everything and even ALE consent that since they were arrested, their stories have remained pretty much the same. Having seen people break under the pressure of only 12 hrs of interrogation, I state fairly confidently that Joran has said all that he could say about the case. I somebody lying? Yes but there are also a bunch of other suspects.

Since the comment about bht being HItler's sisters daughter, or whatever imagined relationship Natalee may have ascribed was told to more people than just Joran, it would make sense that apparently Nat wasn't that happy at home. This is normal for a teen. It is just as normal for said teen to have thoughts about running away or suicide. Since there is no evidence of a crime whatsoever, we can only go by what hasn't happened.

I doubt that three law enforcement agencies have conspired to cover up a crime/evidence just to protect a Dutch teen. It would mean that not only ALE, but also KLPD and the FBI are corrupt. Ok maybe that isn't a great leap of imagination. Where is Hoover?

I don't recall anybody calling Natalee a prostitute. I recall people stating that she was a normal teen and behaved in a fairly normal teenage way. She drank, she partied and whether or not she is a virgin IMO should have no impact on the case in as far as the investigation goes. The fact that it was stressed by bht that Natalee was a virgin, and is as naive as a small child flies directly in the face of Jug's statements of Natalee's rather personal grooming. It wasn't as though he was talking about Natalee shaving her legs.


Interesting question How about Dave Holloway? Do you think he would remain silent if there was even a suspicion on his part?

Dave has been out of the loop since Natalee left his home. They rarely saw each other. Natalee had to beg and borrow to find a ticket for her father to attend her graduation. Dave was not consulted regarding the Aruba trip, he was simply told Natalee was going, he found it extravagant but gave her money to cover some of the costs anyway.

Dave was informed by his son that his daughter was missing. Dave has received most of his information from his ex wife who is not just misinformed but is on a campaign to distribute false information (kidnapping, murder and rape).

Dave I'm sure loves his daughter but is rather clueless. I doubt that if Jug was molesting Natalee he would have been informed. bht would have ensured that that little secret would have been kept behind closed doors. Next to running away being daddy's precious little girl would not have made a good impression on the wealthy neighbors.

All IMO of course.

[Chocoholic]

Beth could bathe in ice cream, walk across America on her hands or sit on a rock gazing out at the sea from sunup to sundown. Point here is that Beth's actions have no bearing on Natalee's disappearance.

bht didn't bathe in ice cream, she got a facelift instead. My point is that bht may have had every bearing on Natalee's disappearance. The references to her mother being "hitler's sister's daughter" and not wishing to return to Alabama are enough cause for concern.

imo

[HiLife]

bht didn't bathe in ice cream, she got a facelift instead. My point is that bht may have had every bearing on Natalee's disappearance. The references to her mother being "hitler's sister's daughter" and not wishing to return to Alabama are enough cause for concern.

imo

Prove it.

jmo

[Heyes]

I felt that joran, deepak and satish were knee deep in Natalee's disappearance, but when this bit of news was released it removed all doubt in my mind. Clearly after hearing this I felt that paulus was involved and anita was working overtime at getting this covered up. IMO

Aruba's chief prosecutor Karin Janssen told CNN Wednesday the elder Van Der Sloot told his son that without a body police would have no case.

In addition, he and his wife, Anita, interfered in the case by asking a friend of their son what he had told police during questioning, Janssen said.

"That was not positive to the investigation," she said.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/30/aruba.missing/index.html?iref=newssearch

[Riviera]

Bumping Freshwater's message---->

Follow the Rules/Play Nice

Thank you
R

[Heyes]

When asked if Joran had ever been involved in drugs, Anita said: "A hundred percent, no.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160514,00.html




Jorans book transcripts
"August 11th 2005

Joran is woken at 7:00am for a drug test. He says, "Cell mates quickly provide me with a little bag of urine from someone who had never 'blowed' before. In front of the guard i need to pull the little bag out of my zipper and deposit the content into a small container. I'm very nervous, but i manage to do it. Results are negative. Only two people in the youth department of KIA recieved severe detention for the use of marihuana, the rest all tested negatively since they used the urine of the boy who had never 'blowed'."


Is anita a liar?????

[SukiJane]

When asked if Joran had ever been involved in drugs, Anita said: "A hundred percent, no.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160514,00.html




Jorans book transcripts
"August 11th 2005

Joran is woken at 7:00am for a drug test. He says, "Cell mates quickly provide me with a little bag of urine from someone who had never 'blowed' before. In front of the guard i need to pull the little bag out of my zipper and deposit the content into a small container. I'm very nervous, but i manage to do it. Results are negative. Only two people in the youth department of KIA recieved severe detention for the use of marihuana, the rest all tested negatively since they used the urine of the boy who had never 'blowed'."


Is anita a liar?????

Well Heyes, I suppose it can best be explained by saying suspects lie, and suspects mother cover for them, I guess...I don't know, but look at at what Anita says here, as the date on this article is June 24th 2005...

When asked if Joran had changed his initial story, she replied, "Joran changed his story only one time. I think he was scared because he sneaked out of the house that evening. I think he was scared and wanted to cover other people too. He changed his story once and added details."

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050624/suspect.shtml

[No Nic]

When asked if Joran had ever been involved in drugs, Anita said: "A hundred percent, no.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160514,00.html




Jorans book transcripts
"August 11th 2005

Joran is woken at 7:00am for a drug test. He says, "Cell mates quickly provide me with a little bag of urine from someone who had never 'blowed' before. In front of the guard i need to pull the little bag out of my zipper and deposit the content into a small container. I'm very nervous, but i manage to do it. Results are negative. Only two people in the youth department of KIA recieved severe detention for the use of marihuana, the rest all tested negatively since they used the urine of the boy who had never 'blowed'."


Is anita a liar?????

Such a "sporter".

Per Anita Van der Sloot:
Does Joran use drugs,, No (a lie)
Does Joran smoke, No (a lie)
Did Joran have anything to do with Natalee's disappearance, No (a lie)

Why would THIS mother LIE ? (oops....maybe she is just "covering-up a little bit :eek: )

ALL MY OPINION

[pnavas]

I felt that joran, deepak and satish were knee deep in Natalee's disappearance, but when this bit of news was released it removed all doubt in my mind. Clearly after hearing this I felt that paulus was involved and anita was working overtime at getting this covered up. IMO

Aruba's chief prosecutor Karin Janssen told CNN Wednesday the elder Van Der Sloot told his son that without a body police would have no case.

In addition, he and his wife, Anita, interfered in the case by asking a friend of their son what he had told police during questioning, Janssen said.

"That was not positive to the investigation," she said.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/30/aruba.missing/index.html?iref=newssearch

Anita asking the friend what he told police is proof of a coverup? That is a marvelous leap of logic that I am not willing to follow. What evidence did she coverup? What evidence did she destroy? The intention of asking questions, even inappropriate questions, is to uncover, to reveal, to shed light upon -- not to cover up.

As for the "no body, no case" statement. Big deal. That statement is not evidence of guilt, or evidence of a crime, or evidence of anything at all except a father who was applying his knowledge of the law to the situation at hand. Again, big deal.

JMO

[No Nic]

Anita asking the friend what he told police is proof of a coverup? That is a marvelous leap of logic that I am not willing to follow. What evidence did she coverup? What evidence did she destroy? The intention of asking questions, even inappropriate questions, is to uncover, to reveal, to shed light upon -- not to cover up. Every time Joran was caught in one of his lies, another was told. IMO, they needed to know what Joran's friend said in case they needed to change their current version of the lies. No leap there.

As for the "no body, no case" statement. Big deal. That statement is not evidence of guilt, or evidence of a crime, or evidence of anything at all except a father who was applying his knowledge of the law to the situation at hand. Again, big deal. It is big deal, why was Paulus even discussing a body, IIRC the day after Natalee was missing (girls go missing in Aruba ALL THE TIME and turn up, remember)? Again, IMO, because he knew there was a body and he knew where it was and that it would NEVER be found.

JMO

My OPINION in red.

[HiLife]

Well Heyes, I suppose it can best be explained by saying suspects lie, and suspects mother cover for them, I guess...I don't know, but look at at what Anita says here, as the date on this article is June 24th 2005...

When asked if Joran had changed his initial story, she replied, "Joran changed his story only one time. I think he was scared because he sneaked out of the house that evening. I think he was scared and wanted to cover other people too. He changed his story once and added details."

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050624/suspect.shtml

The thought of Joran selflessly "covering other people".......!

The thought of Joran being "scared"........!

The thought of Joran only changing his story "one" time......!

This can only come from a mother in deep denial, IMO.

jmo

[HiLife]

When asked if Joran had ever been involved in drugs, Anita said: "A hundred percent, no.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160514,00.html

Jorans book transcripts
"August 11th 2005

Joran is woken at 7:00am for a drug test. He says, "Cell mates quickly provide me with a little bag of urine from someone who had never 'blowed' before. In front of the guard i need to pull the little bag out of my zipper and deposit the content into a small container. I'm very nervous, but i manage to do it. Results are negative. Only two people in the youth department of KIA recieved severe detention for the use of marihuana, the rest all tested negatively since they used the urine of the boy who had never 'blowed'."

Is anita a liar?????

Wow. Isn't that the height of fearlessness? Doing drugs in prison??

Pardon me, but I thought prison time serves as a time for reflection, redemption, repentance, remorse.

Reality check.

jmo

[pnavas]

My OPINION in red.

I'm not sure how to re-quote your amendments to my original post, so I'll just say this about "no body, no case":

Thank goodness Paulus was able to insert some reason and clarity into a hysterical situation. With that one statement Paulus revealed himself to be both a good father and a good lawyer. Bravo.

JMO

[ortiga]

Wow. Isn't that the height of fearlessness? Doing drugs in prison??

Pardon me, but I thought prison time serves as a time for reflection, redemption, repentance, remorse.

Reality check.

jmo

Reality check: he was not, and still is not accused of a crime, and there was no crime even proven to have taken place, repeat: still there is no crime proven to have taken place. No indictment, no body, no proof of wrongdoing, no proof of sexual assault, and of course no proof of kidnapping, gang rape or murder despite the immoral and obscene (IMO) and baseless accusations by the mother. No proof that Natalee did not choose to leave the life she had been living in Alabama, and, of course no proof whatsoever that she did not take a late night swim, under the influence, which ended her life.

So why should he focus on reflection, redemption, repentance, and remorse for something he obviously was not charged for and says he is innocent of?

I know it is difficult to understand, Arlene tried to explain it to Americans many times:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8386278/
"ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Well, charge is the wrong legal term here.

In our system, we‘re dealing with reasonable suspicion of involvement in a criminal offense. And what makes this case difficult is because we are not knowing what the criminal offense is, that you just have a suspicion of a criminal offense. And then you have suspects to be suspected involved in a suspected criminal offense. So, it makes it very complicated, which makes your case hard against someone. And I think that is what makes it so difficult to understand here."

IMO

[HiLife]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnavas
Anita asking the friend what he told police is proof of a coverup? That is a marvelous leap of logic that I am not willing to follow. What evidence did she coverup? What evidence did she destroy? The intention of asking questions, even inappropriate questions, is to uncover, to reveal, to shed light upon -- not to cover up. Every time Joran was caught in one of his lies, another was told. IMO, they needed to know what Joran's friend said in case they needed to change their current version of the lies. No leap there.

As for the "no body, no case" statement. Big deal. That statement is not evidence of guilt, or evidence of a crime, or evidence of anything at all except a father who was applying his knowledge of the law to the situation at hand. Again, big deal. It is big deal, why was Paulus even discussing a body, IIRC the day after Natalee was missing (girls go missing in Aruba ALL THE TIME and turn up, remember)? Again, IMO, because he knew there was a body and he knew where it was and that it would NEVER be found.

JMO

My OPINION in red.

Excellent logic, NN! Paulus seemed to be jumping the gun there about the dead body scenario. Too bad Paulus decided to act as an enabling father and a lawyer for his son, instead of "applying his knowledge" in searching for the truth from his son.

jmo

[HiLife]

<snipped>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8386278/
"ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Well, charge is the wrong legal term here.

In our system, we‘re dealing with reasonable suspicion of involvement in a criminal offense. And what makes this case difficult is because we are not knowing what the criminal offense is, that you just have a suspicion of a criminal offense. And then you have suspects to be suspected involved in a suspected criminal offense. So, it makes it very complicated, which makes your case hard against someone. And I think that is what makes it so difficult to understand here."

IMO

LOL! I think SHE'S difficult to understand here! LOL! Arlene Ellis-Schipper, the Aruba Spin-meister. Even the talking heads on a Nancy Grace show were mocking her and how she never answers a question. Her agenda was to protect Aruba at all costs.

Haven't I seen that somewhere? Oh yeah.......great sig line, NN! :)

jmo

[ortiga]

LOL! I think SHE'S difficult to understand here! LOL! Arlene Ellis-Schipper, the Aruba Spin-meister. Even the talking heads on a Nancy Grace show were mocking her and how she never answers a question. Her agenda was to protect Aruba at all costs.

Haven't I seen that somewhere? Oh yeah.......great sig line, NN! :)

jmo

Yes, sometimes it is difficult for professionals, both foreigners and from the US, to reduce complex ideas to the sound bites required by the tabloid shows. I guess that's why, 2 years later, so many Americans that follow this case seem to be oblivious to the differences in law between Aruba and the US.

IMO

[HiLife]

Yes, sometimes it is difficult for professionals, both foreigners and from the US, to reduce complex ideas to the sound bites required by the tabloid shows. I guess that's why, 2 years later, so many Americans that follow this case seem to be oblivious to the differences in law between Aruba and the US.

IMO

Actually, I think Arlene Schipper has an excellent grasp of the English language. It is her agenda that created the confusion.

I don't think any of us need to know Aruban law to understand that J2K are the main suspects because they were the last to be seen with the disappeared girl. This is a red flag for any LE, in any country. Oh, and they lied and lied and lied.

Nope, doesn't matter whether it happened in Aruba or Timbuktu.

jmo

[No Nic]

LOL! I think SHE'S difficult to understand here! LOL! Arlene Ellis-Schipper, the Aruba Spin-meister. Even the talking heads on a Nancy Grace show were mocking her and how she never answers a question. Her agenda was to protect Aruba at all costs.

Haven't I seen that somewhere? Oh yeah.......great sig line, NN! :)

jmo

Seems that I remember at one time she admitted that she was working for the tourism association (IIRC), nuff said.

imo

[pnavas]

LOL! I think SHE'S difficult to understand here! LOL! Arlene Ellis-Schipper, the Aruba Spin-meister. Even the talking heads on a Nancy Grace show were mocking her and how she never answers a question. Her agenda was to protect Aruba at all costs.

Haven't I seen that somewhere? Oh yeah.......great sig line, NN! :)

jmo

Is there something in her quote that is not true?

It makes complete sense that a case becomes entirely more difficult when we don't know the nature of the criminal offense. Sorry, I don't see evidence of the ever-elusive, ever-convenient "Agenda".

BTW I wonder if English is Arlene's first language. Imagine the difficulty of trying to explain the legalities of this complicated case using a language with which you are not entirely comfortable. Then imagine having to do it on TV. Then imagine being mocked because maybe you didn't use the proper word or craft the proper sentence. I feel for her.

JMO

[ortiga]

Is there something in her quote that is not true?

It makes complete sense that a case becomes entirely more difficult when we don't know the nature of the criminal offense. Sorry, I don't see evidence of the ever-elusive, ever-convenient "Agenda".

BTW I wonder if English is Arlene's first language. Imagine the difficulty of trying to explain the legalities of this complicated case using a language with which you are not entirely comfortable. Then imagine having to do it on TV. Then imagine being mocked because maybe you didn't use the proper word or craft the proper sentence. I feel for her.

JMO

"Agenda" is a very good example of a sound bite that results when complex, hard-to-understand concepts are brushed aside, or hastily summarized by those who have difficulty absorbing the details of any system they are not familiar with in America.

IMO

[HiLife]

Is there something in her quote that is not true?

It makes complete sense that a case becomes entirely more difficult when we don't know the nature of the criminal offense. Sorry, I don't see evidence of the ever-elusive, ever-convenient "Agenda".

BTW I wonder if English is Arlene's first language. Imagine the difficulty of trying to explain the legalities of this complicated case using a language with which you are not entirely comfortable. Then imagine having to do it on TV. Then imagine being mocked because maybe you didn't use the proper word or craft the proper sentence. I feel for her.

JMO

Sorry I didn't make myself clear. Arlene was not being mocked for her English (which is excellent). She was being mocked due to her inability to answer a question in a straightfoward manner. If Arlene was worried about "sound bites" - it didn't show.....because instead of giving a direct, simple answer, she chose the runaround route. No one appreciates a BSer in such a serious case.

Oh, as for me, I reserve my sympathy for the Holloway/Twitty family, who having lost a child on that island, still could not get a straight or direct answer from Arlene Schipper or anyone else. No need to be a lawyer or understand Aruban law to understand that!

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Seems that I remember at one time she admitted that she was working for the tourism association (IIRC), nuff said.

imo
Was she working with Natalee's aunt?

[pnavas]

"Agenda" is a very good example of a sound bite that results when complex, hard to understand concepts are brushed aside, or hastily summarized by those who have difficulty absorbing the details of any system they are not familiar with in America.

IMO

You know....you are right. It's so much easier to simply tag her as "suspicious" than it is to read through her quotes carefully and with an open mind.

JMO

[HiLife]

"Agenda" is a very good example of a sound bite that results when complex, hard-to-understand concepts are brushed aside, or hastily summarized by those who have difficulty absorbing the details of any system they are not familiar with in America.

IMO

Sorry if you misunderstood. See my post to pnavas. It is not about Law. It is about human nature. Trying to make it about "law" or "foreigners" is misconstruing the conversation.

imo

[HiLife]

Seems that I remember at one time she admitted that she was working for the tourism association (IIRC), nuff said.

imo

"Agenda" should be added to Arlene's, Jossy's, TiTo Lacle's, Steve Cohen's as a hyphenated last name. They were sent out nightly with one purpose - to protect Aruba's tourism industry (or in Jossy's case, protecting his self-interest). Laughable. That is, unless you're Natalee's family.

jmo

[ortiga]

"Agenda" should be added to Arlene's, Jossy's, TiTo Lacle's, Steve Cohen's as a hyphenated last name. They were sent out nightly with one purpose - to protect Aruba's tourism industry. Laughable. That is, unless you're Natalee's family.

jmo


Could you elaborate on the methodology used nightly by Jossy Mansur as he was sent out to protect Aruba's tourism industry? Who sent him out?

[HiLife]

Could you elaborate on the methodology used nightly by Jossy Mansur as he was sent out to protect Aruba's tourism industry? Who sent him out?

Anticipating this question (scary, huh?) I amended my post to read: Jossy's protecting his self-interest. :patriot:

jmo

[ortiga]

Anticipating this question (scary, huh?) I amended my post to read: Jossy's protecting his self-interest. :patriot:

jmo

Then feel free to elaborate on the methodology of Tito, Arlene, and Steve, as they were sent out nightly. For instance, please explain how Arlene's explanations about the differences in law between the 2 countries served an agenda? Steve Cohen made several quite serious accusatory statements about JK2, did you not approve of those?

I had the opposite impression, that the tabloid shows were soliciting their presence.

IMO

[HiLife]

Then feel free to elaborate on the methodology of Tito, Arlene, and Steve, as they were sent out nightly. For instance, please explain how Arlene's explanations about the differences in law between the 2 countries served an agenda?

I had the opposite impression, that the tabloid shows were soliciting their presence.

IMO

In that case, this may shock you: IMO, EVERYONE is usually out for their own self-interests. It's what makes the world go 'round (along with love sweet love). The library is filled with books regarding both these concepts.

We've been on this board long enough to know exactly what they did each night. There was a lot of blah, blah, blah, nightly with nothing to show for it. Talk is cheap.

jmo

eta - Answering your question about Arlene: Arlene's agenda was to go out and talk about LAW as to deflect from the tough questions about ALE and what was actually happening.

[ortiga]

In that case, this may shock you: IMO, EVERYONE is usually out for their own self-interests. It's what makes the world go 'round (along with love sweet love). The library is filled with books regarding both these concepts.

We've been on this board long enough to know exactly what they did each night. There was a lot of blah, blah, blah, nightly with nothing to show for it. Talk is cheap.

jmo

eta - Answering your question about Arlene: Arlene's agenda was to go out and talk about LAW as to deflect from the tough questions about ALE and what was actually happening.

If viewers had taken the time or used the mental power to try to understand her lessons on the differences in the legal systems then they would probably have understood why she was not able to answer tough questions about ALE and what was actually happening. That was the point.

IMO

[HiLife]

If viewers had taken the time or used the mental power to try to understand her lessons on the differences in the legal systems then they would probably have understood why she was not able to answer tough questions about ALE and what was actually happening. That was the point.

IMO

It is a simple case: Girl leaves with with J2K and is never seen again. J2K lie and lie and lie. It is not necessary to understand law, Aruban or any other. The posters here on CL are here because of their interest in criminal cases. Plenty of intelligence to go around here.

I think it unproductive to judge or underestimate "viewer's" "mental powers," or their "understanding" or all the other unhelpful words you are using in the past couple pages.

So I will take my leave for now. Later. :seeya:

jmo

[pnavas]

In that case, this may shock you: IMO, EVERYONE is usually out for their own self-interests. It's what makes the world go 'round (along with love sweet love). The library is filled with books regarding both these concepts.

We've been on this board long enough to know exactly what they did each night. There was a lot of blah, blah, blah, nightly with nothing to show for it. Talk is cheap.

jmo

eta - Answering your question about Arlene: Arlene's agenda was to go out and talk about LAW as to deflect from the tough questions about ALE and what was actually happening.

Self-interest makes the world go 'round. That's interesting and sad, even if we can find it in the library.

I was hoping you would give us the methodology used by those you accused
of having an agenda. You know, something somehow bordering on specific.

I believe Arlene spoke about the law becauae she was asked about the law.
Arlene could only speak the truth according to the law. I'm impressed that she stuck to the facts, even when our media wanted something more sensational. I suppose she could've spun a juicy tale of kidnap, rape, and murder....but wait, someone else thought of that first.

JMO

[pnavas]

It is a simple case: Girl leaves with with J2K and is never seen again. J2K lie and lie and lie. It is not necessary to understand law, Aruban or any other. The posters here on CL are here because of their interest in criminal cases. Plenty of intelligence to go around here.

I think it unproductive to judge or underestimate "viewer's" "mental powers," or their "understanding" or all the other unhelpful words you are using in the past couple pages.

So I will take my leave for now. Later. :seeya:

jmo

You just proved Ortiga's point.

JMO

[Heyes]

It is a simple case: Girl leaves with with J2K and is never seen again. J2K lie and lie and lie. It is not necessary to understand law, Aruban or any other. The posters here on CL are here because of their interest in criminal cases. Plenty of intelligence to go around here.

I think it unproductive to judge or underestimate "viewer's" "mental powers," or their "understanding" or all the other unhelpful words you are using in the past couple pages.

So I will take my leave for now. Later. :seeya:

jmo

This isn't a complicated case as some would have us believe. It is what it is.
Girl leaves with boys. boys return, girl doesn't. Boys lie about their alibi and change stories. girl missing. If they can't see the criminal nature of this scenario perhaps a word with their own ale will enlighten them. It wasn't an American that decided that they are suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of a young American tourist. Nope that came from aruba and even more recently, the dutch. Perhaps they need a refresher course on how their system works.
In aruba an American has no right to hold suspects or retain their suspect status.
Attempting to make us believe that aruba law so complicated that it's difficult for us Americans to understand is insulting and as tree used to say "a load". Trust me we can figure out law when it's in black and white. It's when it changes with the wind that it gets a little difficult for us Americans to grasp.
Aruba will have to suffer the consiquences for years to come, arlene couldn't help them.

[No Nic]

This isn't a complicated case as some would have us believe. It is what it is.
Girl leaves with boys. boys return, girl doesn't. Boys lie about their alibi and change stories. girl missing. If they can't see the criminal nature of this scenario perhaps a word with their own ale will enlighten them. It wasn't an American that decided that they are suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of a young American tourist. Nope that came from aruba and even more recently, the dutch. Perhaps they need a refresher course on how their system works.
In aruba an American has no right to hold suspects or retain their suspect status.
Attempting to make us believe that aruba law so complicated that it's difficult for us Americans to understand is insulting and as tree used to say "a load". Trust me we can figure out law when it's in black and white. It's when it changes with the wind that it gets a little difficult for us Americans to grasp. Aruba will have to suffer the consiquences for years to come, arlene couldn't help them.

That's it in a nutshell, Heyes.

imo

[ortiga]

This isn't a complicated case as some would have us believe. It is what it is.
Girl leaves with boys. boys return, girl doesn't. Boys lie about their alibi and change stories. girl missing. If they can't see the criminal nature of this scenario perhaps a word with their own ale will enlighten them. It wasn't an American that decided that they are suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of a young American tourist. Nope that came from aruba and even more recently, the dutch. Perhaps they need a refresher course on how their system works.
In aruba an American has no right to hold suspects or retain their suspect status.
Attempting to make us believe that aruba law so complicated that it's difficult for us Americans to understand is insulting and as tree used to say "a load". Trust me we can figure out law when it's in black and white. It's when it changes with the wind that it gets a little difficult for us Americans to grasp.
Aruba will have to suffer the consiquences for years to come, arlene couldn't help them.


I know it is very complex, but it was a suspected possible crime, and that crime has not been proven to ever have occurred.

It is more than likely, IMO, that she took her own life by misjudging the strength of the currents in an early morning swim.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

I know it is very complex, but it was a suspected possible crime, and that crime has not been proven to ever have occurred.

It is more than likely, IMO, that she took her own life by misjudging the strength of the currents in an early morning swim.

IMO

It's far more convoluted to believe that ALE, KLPD and the FBI are all involved in a coverup and corruption. But it really seems to tickle some people's fancy.

imo

[ortiga]

It's far more convoluted to believe that ALE, KLPD and the FBI are all involved in a coverup and corruption. But it really seems to tickle some people's fancy.

imo

I think that if a guy had asked a girl for a ride after the bar closed, and if the guy had wanted to stay on the beach and the girl went on home after a makeout session, and the guy disappeared, ie possibly went swimming or ran into trouble by staying alone on the beach, there would be little discussion about the case.

It would be too bizarre to accuse the girl and the woman driver and another woman passenger of kidnapping, gang rape, and murder, without any proof. Much less do it repeatedly on international TV without benefit of indictment or trial.

Sounds funny, but that's what it is, IMO, a gory lurid story serving the purpose of retaining the impeccable reputation of a woman by judging young man (young men, that is, if not a whole island) without a trial.

IMO

[Heyes]

It's far more convoluted to believe that ALE, KLPD and the FBI are all involved in a coverup and corruption. But it really seems to tickle some people's fancy.

imo

Who said the fbi are part of the cover up?

The FBI had jorans number from the get go. aruba put the Twittys/Holloways through he** when they got the word that there was a body and one of the suspects had confessed. The AP had word from authorities and they were reporting it as well. Then all the sudden it was a "misinformation campaign"?
From who? Why? What lunatic decided to spread this story to the point the Associated press reported it and Dave Holloway was getting ready to recover the body of his daughter? This is a sick, sick thing to do. So either satan himself is on that island or there was a cover up because one of the suspects indeed confessed and they had to do something quick! IMO
No Body, No Case, how charming. Anita must be proud of her husband to come up with that one within hours of Natalee not returning to her hotel. IMO - pvds is completely involved with the removal of Natalee Holloway so his son could "go on with his life".

[No Nic]

Who said the fbi are part of the cover up?

The FBI had jorans number from the get go. aruba put the Twittys/Holloways through he** when they got the word that there was a body and one of the suspects had confessed. The AP had word from authorities and they were reporting it as well. Then all the sudden it was a "misinformation campaign"?
From who? Why? What lunatic decided to spread this story to the point the Associated press reported it and Dave Holloway was getting ready to recover the body of his daughter? This is a sick, sick thing to do. So either satan himself is on that island or there was a cover up because one of the suspects indeed confessed and they had to do something quick! IMO
No Body, No Case, how charming. Anita must be proud of her husband to come up with that one within hours of Natalee not returning to her hotel. IMO - pvds is completely involved with the removal of Natalee Holloway so his son could "go on with his life".

The epitome of black hearted evil, imo.

[Chocoholic]

Who said the fbi are part of the cover up?

The FBI had jorans number from the get go. aruba put the Twittys/Holloways through he** when they got the word that there was a body and one of the suspects had confessed. The AP had word from authorities and they were reporting it as well. Then all the sudden it was a "misinformation campaign"?
From who? Why? What lunatic decided to spread this story to the point the Associated press reported it and Dave Holloway was getting ready to recover the body of his daughter? This is a sick, sick thing to do. So either satan himself is on that island or there was a cover up because one of the suspects indeed confessed and they had to do something quick! IMO
No Body, No Case, how charming. Anita must be proud of her husband to come up with that one within hours of Natalee not returning to her hotel. IMO - pvds is completely involved with the removal of Natalee Holloway so his son could "go on with his life".

Since there is no "imo" in your post can you please provide proof with credible links please for the bolded parts.?

The lunatic would be bht. IM of course.

[Heyes]

I think that if a guy had asked a girl for a ride after the bar closed, and if the guy had wanted to stay on the beach and the girl went on home after a makeout session, and the guy disappeared, ie possibly went swimming or ran into trouble by staying alone on the beach, there would be little discussion about the case.

It would be too bizarre to accuse the girl and the woman driver and another woman passenger of kidnapping, gang rape, and murder, without any proof. Much less do it repeatedly on international TV without benefit of indictment or trial.

Sounds funny, but that's what it is, IMO, a gory lurid story serving the purpose of retaining the impeccable reputation of a woman by judging young man (young men, that is, if not a whole island) without a trial.

IMO

LMAO, yeah it would be "too bizarre" !
Good try though.
However, IMO what joran and the kapoes did is not that bizarre, it's just that "something bad happened this time". Yeah, like Natalee's death. Of course IMO if paulus made sure her body is not found then no body, no case. joran gets to pack his toys and go home and be a smoking, drinking. drug taking, destructive sporter once again. IMO And life goes on for the vandersloots. All is good, they're not missing anyone. joran goes to college, of course not in the U.S., but he gets to do all the things that Natalee will never be able to do. So why all the bitterness, your boy is free!

Maybe there is still worry? No? He is still the prime suspect.

[Heyes]

The epitome of black hearted evil, imo.



Yup, you got that right.

[ortiga]

Who said the fbi are part of the cover up?

The FBI had jorans number from the get go. aruba put the Twittys/Holloways through he** when they got the word that there was a body and one of the suspects had confessed. The AP had word from authorities and they were reporting it as well. Then all the sudden it was a "misinformation campaign"?
From who? Why? What lunatic decided to spread this story to the point the Associated press reported it and Dave Holloway was getting ready to recover the body of his daughter? This is a sick, sick thing to do. So either satan himself is on that island or there was a cover up because one of the suspects indeed confessed and they had to do something quick! IMO
No Body, No Case, how charming. Anita must be proud of her husband to come up with that one within hours of Natalee not returning to her hotel. IMO - pvds is completely involved with the removal of Natalee Holloway so his son could "go on with his life".


ETA When did the FBI say that they had Joran's number?

As far as what "lunatic" decided to put out a story that someone had confessed could be the same type of "lunatic" or maybe even "satan himself" that told the miners' families that the miners were alive, when in fact they were dead. Remember that, it was in the US, same day as Beth's notebook was featured on Greta. What would be worse, telling a family that their loved one is alive, and then saying, oops, sorry they are dead, or telling a family that their loved one was dead and then saying it was a mistake. I'd take #2, thanks.

You have stated before that Paulus said "no body no case" within hours after Natalee did not return to the hotel. Technically you are correct, as days are made up of hours, but if you mean within a few hours after Natalee failed to return to her hotel, in the early morning hours of May 30, I ask you for proof of that, given our counseling from the moderators recently.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

This isn't a complicated case as some would have us believe. It is what it is.
<edited for clarity>.It seems very complicated to me. Perhaps not complicated, maybe confusing.

Joran hangs with the MB crowd all week and plays cards with them. Then he kidnaps, drugs, gang rapes, murders and buries one of them.

Joran says he is an exchange student staying at the HI but Natalee wants to see his big house.

When Beth arrives, Natalee is packed and ready to go. Or her roomies packed her things, took her stuff to the airport. The chaperone took it back, put it in the room and left her passport there.

Beth while driving home (or to the airport), from her mom's or a spa, with or without friends, gets a call from a chaperone, her son or Jody Bearman. Beth calls 911 because she immediately knows Natalee is kidnapped. In over two years, no one plays the 911 tape! :patriot:

Beth looks at casino tape and sees Joran and Paulus but doesn't notice Natalee drinking a Red Fire.:confused:

Marcia Twitty handles the PR from Mountain Brook but never mentions her sons were on the trip. Carla is spokesperson for the family in Aruba but also works for the Aruba tourism group.

After two years, who is absolutely sure who the chaperones were? Has anyone seen the agreement signed by the participants? Does anyone know how many there were from MB that were not with the group? :cool:

I have to agree that Beth knows many things we don't know. She knows what was in Natalee's camera. But ALE, J2K, the other suspects, Aruban authorities all know things we don't know. :shrug:

And it is possible no one knows the answer.

In some ways this case is backwards to me. In stead of looking at the evidence, studying the crime and coming up with a suspect. Many of us have arrived at a theory and evaluate evidence to fit the theory. If our theory is J2K murdered Natalee, then anything bad said about Natalee and her family is bashing the victim. But if our theory is Natalee went off on her own, there is no victim and things look very different. People might not want Beth to find Natalee.:patriot:

I see it not so much as studying evidence but taking things on faith based on each posters theory. If one believes Joran murdered Natalee, it is convenient to believe everything bad about Joran. But being bad doesn't equal being guilty. And acting like Hitler doesn't mean Natalee hates you.

Maybe what it comes down to is it is simple. J2K are guilty. Or it is complicated, something else happened.http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/dunesdig.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/15_2_1v1.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/char054.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/anxious/3.gif

Is it all about lies?http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/lienose.gif

[Heyes]

Since there is no "imo" in your post can you please provide proof with credible links please for the bolded parts.?

The lunatic would be bht. IM of course.

Paul Reynolds:
The FBI had even intimated to my sister that they thought Natalee was probably not alive based on what the boys were saying. So we're confident they were saying something. We don't know exactly what it was.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/15/lkl.01.html

Your right I should have said that I agree with the FBI that they had jorans number form the get go.

[fairmaiden]

Anita asking the friend what he told police is proof of a coverup? That is a marvelous leap of logic that I am not willing to follow. What evidence did she coverup? What evidence did she destroy? The intention of asking questions, even inappropriate questions, is to uncover, to reveal, to shed light upon -- not to cover up.

As for the "no body, no case" statement. Big deal. That statement is not evidence of guilt, or evidence of a crime, or evidence of anything at all except a father who was applying his knowledge of the law to the situation at hand. Again, big deal.

JMO

I couldn't agree with you more, pnavas .... on BOTH points.

I have yet to hear a direct quote from PVDS regarding the "no body, no case". The only time I've seen those words is from someone else QUOTING PVDS.

JMO

[Heyes]

When did the FBI get word that there was a body and one of the suspects had confessed? I don't recall that the FBI ever published that datum.

As far as what "lunatic" decided to put out a story that someone had confessed could be the same type of "lunatic" or maybe even "satan himself" that told the miners' families that the miners were alive, when in fact they were dead. Remember that, it was in the US, same day as Beth's notebook was featured on Greta. What would be worse, telling a family that their loved one is alive, and then saying, oops, sorry they are dead, or telling a family that their loved one was dead and then saying it was a mistake. I'd take #2, thanks.

You have stated before that Paulus said "no body no case" within hours after Natalee did not return to the hotel. Technically you are correct, as days are made up of hours, but if you mean within a few hours after Natalee failed to return to her hotel, in the early morning hours of May 30, I ask you for proof of that, given our counseling from the moderators recently.

IMO

24 hours? 48 hours? 12 hours? who knows, different reports, but it was such a wierd comment to make it ended up getting his tush thrown in the slammer.
imo
To me and I'm sure others it's a comment only a guilty person who thinks they will get away with murder would make. No matter how you spin it...
if your kid was missing and a day or so later one of the suspects is found to of said "no body, no case". Would you appreciate that comment?
Now tell the truth, looks pretty bad doesn't it, you'd be hard pressed finding a way to put in in context without it looking sinister.
IMOIMOIMOIMO
Nope looks like he's involved in Natalee's disappearance to me. IMO He was protecting his son. He went way too far, but he has a reputation to maintain. I also believe it is paulus in the picture in the casino. The hairline, shirt, slouch, arms,watch all look to me like paulus van der sloot. We haven't heard proof either way. But it sure looks just like him. And we know he was gambling with his underage son sooooooo....... great fatherly trait by the way, lol cough lol imo

[fairmaiden]

Excellent logic, NN! Paulus seemed to be jumping the gun there about the dead body scenario. Too bad Paulus decided to act as an enabling father and a lawyer for his son, instead of "applying his knowledge" in searching for the truth from his son.

jmo

How can you possibly know he WASN'T searching for the truth from his son ?? "Enabling"?? "Reassuring" perhaps ??

JMO

[HiLife]

I couldn't agree with you more, pnavas .... on BOTH points.

I have yet to hear a direct quote from PVDS regarding the "no body, no case". The only time I've seen those words is from someone else QUOTING PVDS.

JMO

Does Joran saying it/confirming it in the secretly recorded car conversation to Deepak count?

jmo

[ortiga]

BRAVO! <APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE> You nailed it!


I MISS TREE!!! :patriot:

jmo


Since you quoted Heyes, when Heyes said "Attempting to make us believe that aruba law so complicated that it's difficult for us Americans to understand is insulting"

I do wonder if you and Heyes realize that no one is saying that Aruba law is so complicated for us Americans to understand.

Actually I, at least, am saying that it seems difficult for some to understand that it is complicated.

Big difference.

IMO

[HiLife]

This isn't a complicated case as some would have us believe. It is what it is.

Girl leaves with boys. boys return, girl doesn't. Boys lie about their alibi and change stories. girl missing. If they can't see the criminal nature of this scenario perhaps a word with their own ale will enlighten them. It wasn't an American that decided that they are suspects in the kidnap, rape and murder of a young American tourist. Nope that came from aruba and even more recently, the dutch. Perhaps they need a refresher course on how their system works.

In aruba an American has no right to hold suspects or retain their suspect status.

Attempting to make us believe that aruba law so complicated that it's difficult for us Americans to understand is insulting and as tree used to say "a load".

Trust me we can figure out law when it's in black and white. It's when it changes with the wind that it gets a little difficult for us Americans to grasp.

Aruba will have to suffer the consiquences for years to come, arlene couldn't help them.

BRAVO! <APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE> You nailed it!


I MISS TREE!!! :patriot:

jmo

[Luke Davis]

<snip>
if your kid was missing and a day or so later one of the suspects is found to of said "no body, no case". Would you appreciate that comment?
<snip>imoI would rather hear the truth than what the talking heads were saying about how easy it would be to prosecute without a body. I think it was said on every show. Later we would find out it has NEVER been done in Aruba.

When a person goes missing, FBI statistics show they are murdered within the first two hours. Would you want the FBI to hide that from Beth?

[No Nic]

I couldn't agree with you more, pnavas .... on BOTH points.

I have yet to hear a direct quote from PVDS regarding the "no body, no case". The only time I've seen those words is from someone else QUOTING PVDS.

JMO

Welllllllllllllll..............he's never denied it, soooooooooo it must be true. (this *logic* is used with Beth, what's good for the goose........).

Oh, by the way, Joran, Deepak and Satish all ADMITTED Paulus said this....the supersecret polis car tapes, remember?

Paulus hasn't denied it.
Anita hasn't denied it.
Joran hasn't denied it.
Deepak hasn't denied it.
Dompig hasn't denied it.
Karin Jannsen hasn't denied it.
Arlene Shipper hasn't denied it.
Rudy Croes hasn't denied it.
AHATA hasn't denied it.
NO ONE has denied it. (except for some message board posters).

Paulus SAID it and as Luke says "He was right".

imo

[fairmaiden]

It is a simple case: Girl leaves with with J2K and is never seen again. J2K lie and lie and lie. It is not necessary to understand law, Aruban or any other. The posters here on CL are here because of their interest in criminal cases. Plenty of intelligence to go around here.

I think it unproductive to judge or underestimate "viewer's" "mental powers," or their "understanding" or all the other unhelpful words you are using in the past couple pages.

So I will take my leave for now. Later. :seeya:

jmo

Truthfully, HiLife .... I don't see anything "simple" about any of this, since there doesn't seem to be any evidence of heinous crimes. Are you saying, the premise that "J2K lie and lie and lie" is enough proof that there WERE heinous crimes committed .... by them ??

I don't mind admitting .... this case is a mystery to me, and I consider myself to be of average intelligence. It's NOT simple to me .... far from it.

JMO

[Heyes]

Thank you. Thank you very much. ***using my very best Elvis voice***
I miss tree too!
:beer: One for the tree!
I know I get tired of the, this is such a complicated case here in aruba that it's very difficult for the Americans to understand our laws and system.
I find it terribly insulting and arrogant. but that's just me.
This case is not complicated, I agree with Luke, confusing, but not complicated.
People are people,
crimes are crimes
hiding evidence happens everywhere, all the time.IMO
From the beginning and up to now the only thing that fits all the pieces and makes any sense to me is that the ale, FBI and the Dutch, and Beth, jug, Dave, numerous talking heads, lawyers, ex judges, ex police investigators. etc.. are right. Joran and the kalpoes and more than likely paulus are the ones that are responsible for Natalee's disappearance. I remember dompig saying somethng about complaints to him about tunnel-vision and he said something along the lines of no matter which direction we look, it all points back to j2k. I don't know who did what but when I see joran interviewed, he just comes off ....different...scary. too self assured, cocky, arrogant, cold. He would be the guy most likely to play a game on Natalee and have it go wrong. IMO
His fathers statement, "no body no case" screams, IMO, that he's the one who made sure of it, make sure Natalee would not be found. IMO Anita is overdramatic, I feel she's trying too hard to convince us and now we are aware of the other side of joran. Either she was trying to keep that part of jorans life ( the stories of his tendency to violence), under wraps and is a liar or joran has made his mother a fool. IMO She IIRC had to go on tv what two three times and say, well yes he lied, but I still believe him. How humiliating! imo

[Heyes]

I would rather hear the truth than what the talking heads were saying about how easy it would be to prosecute without a body. I think it was said on every show. Later we would find out it has NEVER been done in Aruba.

When a person goes missing, FBI statistics show they are murdered within the first two hours. Would you want the FBI to hide that from Beth?

So as the parent of a missing child you would rather hear from the main suspects father that he held a little pow wow with the 3 suspects and "informed them that when there is no body there is no case. :eek: Instead of a few talking heads trying to figure out the law on tv?
Um Luke, tv is for the most part is pretend,
Beth was living this....
When did I say I wanted the FBI to hide anything from Beth?

[Luke Davis]

<snip>



Paulus SAID it and as Luke says "He was right".

imoDoes anyone doubt Paulus is correct? If so, show me a case in Aruba with no body, please.

[Luke Davis]

Thank you. Thank you very much. ***using my very best Elvis voice***
I miss tree too!
:beer: One for the tree!
I know I get tired of the, this is such a complicated case here in aruba that it's very difficult for the Americans to understand our laws and system.
I find it terribly insulting and arrogant. but that's just me.
This case is not complicated, I agree with Luke, confusing, but not complicated.
People are people,
crimes are crimes
hiding evidence happens everywhere, all the time.IMO
From the beginning and up to now the only thing that fits all the pieces and makes any sense to me is that the ale, FBI and the Dutch, and Beth, jug, Dave, numerous talking heads, lawyers, ex judges, ex police investigators. etc.. are right. Joran and the kalpoes and more than likely paulus are the ones that are responsible for Natalee's disappearance. I remember dompig saying somethng about complaints to him about tunnel-vision and he said something along the lines of no matter which direction we look, it all points back to j2k. I don't know who did what but when I see joran interviewed, he just comes off ....different...scary. too self assured, cocky, arrogant, cold. He would be the guy most likely to play a game on Natalee and have it go wrong. IMO
His fathers statement, "no body no case" screams, IMO, that he's the one who made sure of it, make sure Natalee would not be found. IMO Anita is overdramatic, I feel she's trying too hard to convince us and now we are aware of the other side of joran. Either she was trying to keep that part of jorans life ( the stories of his tendency to violence), under wraps and is a liar or joran has made his mother a fool. IMO She IIRC had to go on tv what two three times and say, well yes he lied, but I still believe him. How humiliating! imo

Just one problem. No body.

[Luke Davis]

So as the parent of a missing child you would rather hear from the main suspects father that he held a little pow wow with the 3 suspects and "informed them that when there is no body there is no case. :eek: Instead of a few talking heads trying to figure out the law on tv?
Um Luke, tv is for the most part is pretend,
Beth was living this....
When did I say I wanted the FBI to hide anything from Beth?

The FBI indicated Natalee could be dead. It sounded to me like you did not want FBI to tell the family that.

Any parent would want to hear the truth. As far as I know, Paulus told the truth.

[No Nic]

We have heard much outrage about "making money off Natalee", outrage at her mother, even though the merchandise is NOT being offered nor sold by her mother. Joran initially LIED (surprise surprise) about being responsible for this photoshopped picture. Here he recounts his intent for the picture. I would like to hear the excuses for this vile act.

page 323 in Chapter 22 on 'Peter R. de Vries'.

Then there is the manipulated photo of me and Natalee. De Vries shows that there's a photo of Natalee together with a girlfriend at her home, which has been photoshopped into a photo of her and me. I asked to produce this fake photo to get back on the National Enquirer. However the quality was too poor to be able to sell it. It was residing on my computer. One way or the other, De Vries had gotten hold of it and was waving with it at my front door. He demanded an explanation.
http://www.scrux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=631&sid=de06619c06524ee6adbad682f43777df

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/fun-images/Natalee_Faux_JVDS.bmp

Lovely picture of Natalee, ruined by putting that mug in it, imo.

[Heyes]

We have heard much outrage about "making money off Natalee", outrage at her mother, even though the merchandise is NOT being offered nor sold by her mother. Joran initially LIED (surprise surprise) about being responsible for this photoshopped picture. Here he recounts his intent for the picture. I would like to hear the excuses for this vile act.

page 323 in Chapter 22 on 'Peter R. de Vries'.


http://www.scrux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=631&sid=de06619c06524ee6adbad682f43777df

http://www.scaredmonkeys.com/fun-images/Natalee_Faux_JVDS.bmp

Lovely picture of Natalee, ruined by putting that mug in it, imo.

OMG! How have I missed this little snippet of more sick joran behavior.
Sheeesh the guy needs help!
There's gonna be another victim if they don't do something with him soon. imo

[pnavas]

OMG! How have I missed this little snippet of more sick joran behavior.
Sheeesh the guy needs help!
There's gonna be another victim if they don't do something with him soon. imo

So...now photoshopping is an early warning sign of sociopathic behavior.

I wonder what is in Natalee's cup?

JMO

[Chocoholic]

OMG! How have I missed this little snippet of more sick joran behavior.
Sheeesh the guy needs help!
There's gonna be another victim if they don't do something with him soon. imo

If you think this is sick would you also condemn the photoshopped picture of the Kalpoe's body being hung?

I very much doubt it, and that is a whole lot sicker considering there is no evidence of a crime. imo

[Chocoholic]

So...now photoshopping is an early warning sign of sociopathic behavior.

I wonder what is in Natalee's cup?

JMO

Koolaid, definitely Koolaid.

[HiLife]

OMG! How have I missed this little snippet of more sick joran behavior.
Sheeesh the guy needs help!
There's gonna be another victim if they don't do something with him soon. imo

I completely agree. Who could be so cruel? The poor Holloway/Twittys :( Can you imagine the suspect accused of disappearing your daughter mocking your daughter in this despicable way?? Low, low, low.

IMO

[SukiJane]

Yes, sometimes it is difficult for professionals, both foreigners and from the US, to reduce complex ideas to the sound bites required by the tabloid shows. I guess that's why, 2 years later, so many Americans that follow this case seem to be oblivious to the differences in law between Aruba and the US.

IMO

Apparently Anita is oblivious to the difference between Aruban law, and American law when she said this...

"My husband is a man of integrity who has been working in the justice system 15 years and was taken without evidence," she said, describing him as "the most honest, beautiful man."

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050624/suspect.shtm

Anita questioning the arrest of her husband without evidence...wow! Does Aruba need evidence, or just reasonable suspicion...so what evidence did they have to arrest her son...hmmmmm, interesting.

Her son is a sweet boy, a sporter, and her husband is a honest, beautiful man.

jmo

[pnavas]

Koolaid, definitely Koolaid.

Koolaid without a doubt. After all, no one under the age of 18 in the state of Alabama is allowed to purchase, consume, posses, or transport alcohol. I wonder how old Natalee and her friends are in these pictures:


Seems like a lot of "consuming" goin' on.

JMO

[No Nic]

I completely agree. Who could be so cruel? The poor Holloway/Twittys :( Can you imagine the suspect accused of disappearing your daughter mocking your daughter in this despicable way?? Low, low, low.

IMO

Can you believe the silence on this subject? It is deafening!! IMO, it deserves a discussion.

Is Anita proud of her "sporter" doing this? Do her and Paulus support this behavior? Ooops, seems they have supported even worse than this, IMO.

[No Nic]

Apparently Anita is oblivious to the difference between Aruban law, and American law when she said this...

"My husband is a man of integrity who has been working in the justice system 15 years and was taken without evidence," she said, describing him as "the most honest, beautiful man."

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050624/suspect.shtm

Anita questioning the arrest of her husband without evidence...wow! Does Aruba need evidence, or just reasonable suspicion...so what evidence did they have to arrest her son...hmmmmm, interesting.

Her son is a sweet boy, a sporter, and her husband is a honest, beautiful man.

jmo

That made me throw up a little. :D

[SukiJane]

I completely agree. Who could be so cruel? The poor Holloway/Twittys :( Can you imagine the suspect accused of disappearing your daughter mocking your daughter in this despicable way?? Low, low, low.

IMO

I remember when this was first mentioned on this board, even I thought that Joran photoshopping a picture with him and Natalee was a rumor. Then he goes on to brag about this in his book? Lord have mercy, this kid is one strange individual.

What's interesting some try to rationalize his behavior as being normal. This photoshopping a picture sounds like something a serial killer would do...it's just spooky. This kid ain't normal, in my opinion.

jmo

[pnavas]

Can you believe the silence on this subject? It is deafening!! IMO, it deserves a discussion.

Is Anita proud of her "sporter" doing this? Do her and Paulus support this behavior? Ooops, seems they have supported even worse than this, IMO.

Personally, I am semi-silent because I cannot rise to your level of outrage over a photoshopped picture. IMO, it's another of those irrelevant bits of information that are desperately latched on to with the hope of reviving the frenzy surrounding a non-crime. The picture isn't evidence of anything, except maybe that Natalee was very thin, was wearing a cute top, and was almost ready for a refill.
JMO.

[Chocoholic]

Koolaid without a doubt. After all, no one under the age of 18 in the state of Alabama is allowed to purchase, consume, posses, or transport alcohol. I wonder how old Natalee and her friends are in these pictures:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4y5qqtw

Seems like a lot of "consuming" goin' on.

JMO

Actually it's under the age of 21. Considering some of the MB youths were 17 they broke both the law in Aruba and apparently do so with parental consent in the US.

No wonder bht felt she had to clear the name of her daughter the second she set foot on Aruba. bht herself might have been implicated charged in assisting getting her daughter and her friends drunk.

imo

[HiLife]

I remember when this was first mentioned on this board, even I thought that Joran photoshopping a picture with him and Natalee was a rumor. Then he goes on to brag about this in his book? Lord have mercy, this kid is one strange individual.

What's interesting some try to rationalize his behavior as being normal. This photoshopping a picture sounds like something a serial killer would do...it's just spooky. This kid ain't normal, in my opinion.

jmo

Exactly, Suki, I thought it was a rumor, too! Lo and behold. It really is a creepy thing to do when Joran is suspected of harming the girl he is photoshopping and then trying to PROFIT. Still shaking my head.

This is abnormal behavior, imo. Creepy at best and psychopathic at worst, imo. No excusing this despicable act.

imo

[Chocoholic]

Exactly, Suki, I thought it was a rumor, too! Lo and behold. It really is a creepy thing to do when Joran is suspected of harming the girl he is photoshopping and then trying to PROFIT. Still shaking my head.

This is abnormal behavior, imo. Creepy at best and psychopathic at worst, imo. No excusing this despicable act.

imo

So why would the mother of a missing woman lie about the circumstances of said disappearance, the character of the woman and about the investigation? Top that with some slander, throw in some lovebowls, take away a lifeinsurance policy and heap it on with the demand of a death certificate on day 10 of the investigation.

That to me is psychotic and despicable.

imo

[pnavas]

Actually it's under the age of 21. Considering some of the MB youths were 17 they broke both the law in Aruba and apparently do so with parental consent in the US.

No wonder bht felt she had to clear the name of her daughter the second she set foot on Aruba. bht herself might have been implicated charged in assisting getting her daughter and her friends drunk.

imo

I could only DREAM about such a well-stocked party when I was 17.:beer:

[HiLife]

Apparently Anita is oblivious to the difference between Aruban law, and American law when she said this...

"My husband is a man of integrity who has been working in the justice system 15 years and was taken without evidence," she said, describing him as "the most honest, beautiful man."

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050624/suspect.shtml

Anita questioning the arrest of her husband without evidence...wow! Does Aruba need evidence, or just reasonable suspicion...so what evidence did they have to arrest her son...hmmmmm, interesting.

Her son is a sweet boy, a sporter, and her husband is a honest, beautiful man.

jmo

Poor, poor Anita. Denial must be a wonderful little town in which to reside. I wonder how many lies later, that she still believed what he said? lol! And how touching her faith in her husband. The US media is to blame. :rolleyes:

=====================
The teen's mother, meanwhile, told The Associated Press that her son had changed his story, admitting to her that he was alone with 18-year-old Natalee Holloway on a beach the night she vanished — and that he left her there, not at a Holiday Inn as he earlier stated. But Joran van der Sloot, 17, insisted that he did not hurt her, Anita van der Sloot said.


"How can this happen? This is not about Natalee anymore. It's about enormous pressure from the (United) States and the media," she said.


jmo

[pnavas]

Poor, poor Anita. Denial must be a wonderful little town in which to reside. I wonder how many lies later, that she still believed what he said? lol! And how touching her faith in her husband. The US media is to blame. :rolleyes:

=====================
The teen's mother, meanwhile, told The Associated Press that her son had changed his story, admitting to her that he was alone with 18-year-old Natalee Holloway on a beach the night she vanished — and that he left her there, not at a Holiday Inn as he earlier stated. But Joran van der Sloot, 17, insisted that he did not hurt her, Anita van der Sloot said.


"How can this happen? This is not about Natalee anymore. It's about enormous pressure from the (United) States and the media," she said.


jmo

Time has proven Anita to be absolutely correct.

Anita's faith in her husband is lovely. I wonder how long they have been married? Hopefully BHT will find that sort of thing with the husband or boyfriend du jour.

JMO

[HiLife]

Time has proven Anita to be absolutely correct.

Anita's faith in her husband is lovely. I wonder how long they have been married? Hopefully BHT will find that sort of thing with the husband or boyfriend du jour.

JMO

I don't know how long they've been married....do we count from when they began living together or do we start counting from when they married for the visa, as Joran explained in his book? Truly romantic.

jmo

[No Nic]

I don't know how long they've been married....do we count from when they began living together or do we start counting from when they married for the visa, as Joran explained in his book? Truly romantic.

jmo

Um...how old is Joran now ? 18 ? If so, Paulus and Anita have been married for less than 18 years, about 16, IIRC.

imo

[pnavas]

Um...how old is Joran now ? 18 ? If so, Paulus and Anita have been married for less than 18 years, about 16, IIRC.

imo

So Joran is officially a "love child". Sweet.

JMO

[No Nic]

So Joran is officially a "love child". Sweet.

JMO

Is that what they are called in Dutch? :shrug: Sweet.

imo

[Chocoholic]

So Joran is officially a "love child". Sweet.

JMO

Almost as sweet as bht having a romance out of wedlock with jug.

imo

[HiLife]

So Joran is officially a "love child". Sweet.

JMO

Sweet? I believe one of the official words would be "out of wedlock."

jmo

[No Nic]

Sweet? I believe one of the official words would be "out of wedlock."

jmo


It's that touch of "class", I do believe. :D

imo

[Chocoholic]

Sweet? I believe one of the official words would be "out of wedlock."

jmo

I don't see a problem with people having sex outside of marriage. It's been discussed on this board before. It would leave many of us with very short pregnancies and as many "premies". It's been a problem throughout the ages, to pretend it doesn't happen is as foolish as putting blinders on.

However, if those parents aren't committed to each other and find divorce the easy answer to life's issues, it's an entirely different matter. Often the children are used as pawns (think of Natalee having to beg and borrow for her father's ticket to her own graduation and Matt having to call his father to advise him of his sister's disappearance) bht musta been too darned busy getting the lovebowls filled.

To me it appears clear that Anita and Paul are a couple who love each other and care for their children with all their flaws.

The best bht can do is cover up her daughter's flaws and illegal behavior and blame others for her disappearance.

imo

[pnavas]

Sweet? I believe one of the official words would be "out of wedlock."

jmo



Wait, I can feel it coming.....Joran's "out of wedlock" status is yet another indicator of future violent tendencies.


JMO

[HiLife]

Wait, I can feel it coming.....Joran's "out of wedlock" status is yet another indicator of future violent tendencies.


JMO

If you say so.....:shrug:

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Wait, I can feel it coming.....Joran's "out of wedlock" status is yet another indicator of future violent tendencies.


JMO

Congratulations, you learnded quick-like! For the assistance of some you might wish to indicate you are being sarcastic though. :biggrin:

[pnavas]

I don't see a problem with people having sex outside of marriage. It's been discussed on this board before. It would leave many of us with very short pregnancies and as many "premies". It's been a problem throughout the ages, to pretend it doesn't happen is as foolish as putting blinders on.

However, if those parents aren't committed to each other and find divorce the easy answer to life's issues, it's an entirely different matter. Often the children are used as pawns (think of Natalee having to beg and borrow for her father's ticket to her own graduation and Matt having to call his father to advise him of his sister's disappearance) bht musta been too darned busy getting the lovebowls filled.

To me it appears clear that Anita and Paul are a couple who love each other and care for their children with all their flaws.

The best bht can do is cover up her daughter's flaws and illegal behavior and blame others for her disappearance.

imo

I agree.

When I give it the old "At whose home would I rather be a guest for dinner" test, the VDS's win every time. They seem like a warm, funny, and interesting family. I bet dinner at their house would be really enjoyable.
Dinner with Beth and....ahem...John Ramsay? Not so much.


JMO

[Chocoholic]

I agree.

When I give it the old "At whose home would I rather be a guest for dinner" test, the VDS's win every time. They seem like a warm, funny, and interesting family. I bet dinner at their house would be really enjoyable.
Dinner with Beth and....ahem...John Ramsay? Not so much.


JMO

Oh heck, bht could keep us all wondering who the new "beau" will be. When is Joe Mammana getting out of jail?

Yeah, it didn't give anybody (I think) that comfy feeling when it was announced that Natalee was allowed to stay at her stepfather's house. Didn't really have that gosh, welcoming touch did it?

imo

[ortiga]

I agree.

When I give it the old "At whose home would I rather be a guest for dinner" test, the VDS's win every time. They seem like a warm, funny, and interesting family. I bet dinner at their house would be really enjoyable.
Dinner with Beth and....ahem...John Ramsay? Not so much.


JMO

Update on the Nashville Speakers Bureau write up on Beth....Jug has disappeared!!! All she ever did marriage-wise is raise 2 children after marrying her college sweetheart. That is so touching.

"She was born and raised in Pine Bluff, Arkansas where her family still resides. After marrying her college sweetheart, she raised two children in Jackson, Mississippi. Beth taught Sunday school and Children’s Church in her hometown Methodist church for many years.

Earning her Bachelor’s of Science in Speech Pathology with a minor in Special Education from the University of Arkansas in Little Rock, Beth went on to get her Masters in Speech Pathology at Arkansas State University in Jonesboro. Professionally trained as a speech and language pathologist, Beth has taught special needs children in public schools in Mississippi, Arkansas, and now Birmingham, Alabama for 22 years. She is a member of the Speech and Hearing Association of Alabama.

Beth moved her daughter Natalee and son Matt to Mountain Brook, Alabama six years ago. She provides therapy and special diagnostics in the Special Opportunities Preschool Program in Mountain Brook City Schools.

By her own account Beth has lived a quiet, somewhat uneventful life. That all changed quite dramatically last summer when Natalee disappeared."
----
"Her message is powerful, informative and heart- wrencing [sic]"

"Her lectures [sic] is eye-opening, as none of us ever realize the dangers and lack of coopernation [sic] that we may encounter as we travel, especially......internationally."
-------------------------


IMO

http://www.nashspeakers.com/cgi-bin/speakers/display.pl?speaker=1005

[No Nic]

Seems the VDSs agree with a lot of us.

Joran's book, P222

Joran: "Afterwards back to the KIA. I lie down on my bed and wonder about how corrupt the legal system is at Aruba. Also my parents seem to have lost their trust in the constitutional state."

http://www.scrux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=650&sid=b514eea5e3c06ed1754f96934feb16d4

imo

[HiLife]

Seems the VDSs agree with a lot of us.

Joran's book, P222


Quote:
Joran: "Afterwards back to the KIA. I lie down on my bed and wonder about how corrupt the legal system is at Aruba. Also my parents seem to have lost their trust in the constitutional state."

http://www.scrux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=650&sid=b514eea5e3c06ed1754f96934feb16d4

imo

Interesting. And odd. Seeing how daddy VDS was a part of this "corrupt Aruban legal system," per Joran, what does that say about Paulus? lol!!!

jmo

[pnavas]

Update on the Nashville Speakers Bureau write up on Beth....Jug has disappeared!!! All she ever did marriage-wise is raise 2 children after marrying her college sweetheart. That is so touching.

"She was born and raised in Pine Bluff, Arkansas where her family still resides. After marrying her college sweetheart, she raised two children in Jackson, Mississippi. Beth taught Sunday school and Children’s Church in her hometown Methodist church for many years.

Earning her Bachelor’s of Science in Speech Pathology with a minor in Special Education from the University of Arkansas in Little Rock, Beth went on to get her Masters in Speech Pathology at Arkansas State University in Jonesboro. Professionally trained as a speech and language pathologist, Beth has taught special needs children in public schools in Mississippi, Arkansas, and now Birmingham, Alabama for 22 years. She is a member of the Speech and Hearing Association of Alabama.

Beth moved her daughter Natalee and son Matt to Mountain Brook, Alabama six years ago. She provides therapy and special diagnostics in the Special Opportunities Preschool Program in Mountain Brook City Schools.

By her own account Beth has lived a quiet, somewhat uneventful life. That all changed quite dramatically last summer when Natalee disappeared."
----
"Her message is powerful, informative and heart- wrencing [sic]"

"Her lectures [sic] is eye-opening, as none of us ever realize the dangers and lack of coopernation [sic] that we may encounter as we travel, especially......internationally."
-------------------------


IMO

http://www.nashspeakers.com/cgi-bin/speakers/display.pl?speaker=1005

Jug is probably breathing a huge sigh of relief. I can't imagine he would want to be tied to this book in any possible way.

If Beth were to mention Jug, she may have to explain how their relationship began, and that could be tricky. Her image might be tarnished just a bit.

We know the word "kidnapping" on the cover of the book was a real stretch of the truth, a total fabrication actually. Now we know that Jug has been eliminated from the book. It's unfortunate that anyone could still believe that this book is honest account of her life, or of anything at all.

JMO

[HiLife]

<snipped>

If Beth were to mention Jug, she may have to explain how their relationship began, and that could be tricky. Her image might be tarnished just a bit.

<snipped>

JMO

This is the second time this is mentioned on this thread. I believe this to be a scurrilous insinuation, but stand to be corrected.

Please share with us "how their relationship began." And please make sure you are careful to provide a link or statement as proof. TIA.

jmo

[pnavas]

Interesting. And odd. Seeing how daddy VDS was a part of this "corrupt Aruban legal system," per Joran, what does that say about Paulus? lol!!!

jmo

What's really interesting and really odd is how those with an anti-j2k POV believe Joran's statements to be true whenever those statements support their theories.


JMO

[ortiga]

Jug is probably breathing a huge sigh of relief. I can't imagine he would want to be tied to this book in any possible way.

If Beth were to mention Jug, she may have to explain how their relationship began, and that could be tricky. Her image might be tarnished just a bit.

We know the word "kidnapping" on the cover of the book was a real stretch of the truth, a total fabrication actually. Now we know that Jug has been eliminated from the book. It's unfortunate that anyone could still believe that this book is honest account of her life, or of anything at all.

JMO

That was off her bio sheet on the Nashville Speakers' Bureau on internet, I haven't seen the new book yet, I think it's coming out in October, the one that has the truth about the "kidnapping", so I don't know if Jug will be in the book or if she will just say she married her college sweetheart and then took the 2 kids to Alabama.

Actually, who knows what she will say, the sky is not the limit.

IMO

[ortiga]

What's really interesting and really odd is how those with an anti-j2k POV believe Joran's statements to be true whenever those statements support their theories.


JMO

I am wondering if it is now OK to put all parts of Joran's book here, despite that it was translated by who knows who.

There are many parts here that shed light on the behavior of the teens after they left the bar, quite personal details about what happened, and other parts that claim some conversation between Croes and Beth, which was very personal.

It would seem that if it is OK here on this board to pick out Joran's translated text as being the truth, then the whole book should be seen as the truth.

I don't have time right now, but if the moderator says it is OK to quote from this translation of Joran's book, that is OK for posters to pick things out of context to try to make Joran look bad, then I would ask the moderator if it is OK to pick out the things he says that are not flattering to other players.

Riviera??? OK to quote from the translation of Joran's book as published on Scrux.com? As No Nic and others are doing?

Always good to get an OK or not OK.

[pnavas]

This is the second time this is mentioned on this thread. I believe this to be a scurrilous insinuation, but stand to be corrected.

Please share with us "how their relationship began." And please make sure you are careful to provide a link or statement as proof. TIA.

jmo

I purposely left that statement vague so the readers of the post could interpret it in any way they choose. Since you chose to interpret it as "scurrilous", then the onus is on you to prove that the insinuation is scurrilous, not me. Why does the mere mention of the beginnings of the Beth & Jug relationship cause such discomfort? Do you know something we don't?

It might be tricky, and IMO tarnish Beth's image to have to describe a relationship with a husband who has been omitted from the book. How do you do that?

For all I know, Beth and Jug met in a field of flowers while riding unicorns.

JMO

[ortiga]

I could only DREAM about such a well-stocked party when I was 17.:beer:

I can only guffaw at what my parents would have said, and the look they would have had on their faces, if I had wanted to go on an all inclusive alcohol party for 5 days and 4 nights in a foreign country, without chaperones, only with passport holders, for my graduation party. And, then another hardy har har for thinking of them paying for any part of it.

Too bad Mom and Dad aren't here anymore to laugh about that one with me.

:(

[ortiga]

I completely agree. Who could be so cruel? The poor Holloway/Twittys :( Can you imagine the suspect accused of disappearing your daughter mocking your daughter in this despicable way?? Low, low, low.

IMO


Let's make a choice......which is REALLY despicable...

1) a kid photoshops a picture of himself fully clothed next to the disappeared woman who is also fully clothed, someone allegedly steals it off his computer and publishes it around the internet.

2) a grown woman in her 40's goes on TV in the US and Holland and calls foreign teenagers gang rapists, kidnappers, and said they took her daughters life, all without any indictment, any trial, and without the remotest proof.

IMO

[ortiga]

It seems very complicated to me. Perhaps not complicated, maybe confusing.

Joran hangs with the MB crowd all week and plays cards with them. Then he kidnaps, drugs, gang rapes, murders and buries one of them.

Joran says he is an exchange student staying at the HI but Natalee wants to see his big house.

When Beth arrives, Natalee is packed and ready to go. Or her roomies packed her things, took her stuff to the airport. The chaperone took it back, put it in the room and left her passport there.

Beth while driving home (or to the airport), from her mom's or a spa, with or without friends, gets a call from a chaperone, her son or Jody Bearman. Beth calls 911 because she immediately knows Natalee is kidnapped. In over two years, no one plays the 911 tape! :patriot:

Beth looks at casino tape and sees Joran and Paulus but doesn't notice Natalee drinking a Red Fire.:confused:

Marcia Twitty handles the PR from Mountain Brook but never mentions her sons were on the trip. Carla is spokesperson for the family in Aruba but also works for the Aruba tourism group.

After two years, who is absolutely sure who the chaperones were? Has anyone seen the agreement signed by the participants? Does anyone know how many there were from MB that were not with the group? :cool:

I have to agree that Beth knows many things we don't know. She knows what was in Natalee's camera. But ALE, J2K, the other suspects, Aruban authorities all know things we don't know. :shrug:

And it is possible no one knows the answer.

In some ways this case is backwards to me. In stead of looking at the evidence, studying the crime and coming up with a suspect. Many of us have arrived at a theory and evaluate evidence to fit the theory. If our theory is J2K murdered Natalee, then anything bad said about Natalee and her family is bashing the victim. But if our theory is Natalee went off on her own, there is no victim and things look very different. People might not want Beth to find Natalee.:patriot:

I see it not so much as studying evidence but taking things on faith based on each posters theory. If one believes Joran murdered Natalee, it is convenient to believe everything bad about Joran. But being bad doesn't equal being guilty. And acting like Hitler doesn't mean Natalee hates you.

Maybe what it comes down to is it is simple. J2K are guilty. Or it is complicated, something else happened.http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/dunesdig.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/15_2_1v1.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/char054.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/anxious/3.gif

Is it all about lies?http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/MoonChat2/lienose.gif

So true, so complicated when there are so many contradictions and people like Beth purposely obfuscating the facts. IMO.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/obfuscating

PS I love that little smiley with the shovel!!

[ortiga]

This is the second time this is mentioned on this thread. I believe this to be a scurrilous insinuation, but stand to be corrected.

Please share with us "how their relationship began." And please make sure you are careful to provide a link or statement as proof. TIA.

jmo

She doesn't even MENTION Jug in the Nashville Speakers' Bureau listing I just linked to.

Do you think that is honest? To mention only one of her marriages and not to mention the other marriage or either of the 2 divorces?

I don't think it is honest at all, expecially when one is trying to get business bookings for inspirational speaking (ie $$) based on that bio.

IMO

[ortiga]

I remember when this was first mentioned on this board, even I thought that Joran photoshopping a picture with him and Natalee was a rumor. Then he goes on to brag about this in his book? Lord have mercy, this kid is one strange individual.

What's interesting some try to rationalize his behavior as being normal. This photoshopping a picture sounds like something a serial killer would do...it's just spooky. This kid ain't normal, in my opinion.

jmo

This "photoshopping a picture sounds like something a serial killer would do"?

I'd like to see a reference to any case of a serial killer wherein that killer was found to be photoshopping 2 fully clothed kids together in a fake picture.

[No Nic]

I am wondering if it is now OK to put all parts of Joran's book here, despite that it was translated by who knows who.

There are many parts here that shed light on the behavior of the teens after they left the bar, quite personal details about what happened, and other parts that claim some conversation between Croes and Beth, which was very personal.

It would seem that if it is OK here on this board to pick out Joran's translated text as being the truth, then the whole book should be seen as the truth.

I don't have time right now, but if the moderator says it is OK to quote from this translation of Joran's book, that is OK for posters to pick things out of context to try to make Joran look bad, then I would ask the moderator if it is OK to pick out the things he says that are not flattering to other players.

Riviera??? OK to quote from the translation of Joran's book as published on Scrux.com? As No Nic and others are doing?

Always good to get an OK or not OK.

Have you changed your mind?

From the Natalee II thread (post # 9030):

Originally Posted by Ortiga
We all link to Scrux, or many of us do, because it has the transcripts, interviews, videos, and translations.

Please don't try to stop us from linking to this supportive material. I hope that FW does not pay any attention to you.

I don't understand your motives in this.

Why are you trying to make a big deal about linking to Scrux?

IMO

[ortiga]

Have you changed your mind?

From the Natalee II thread (post # 9030):

No, I have not changed my mind one iota. But, in the last few days different rules have been imposed on the board, IMO, and I want to make sure

with the moderator Riviera,

If it is OK to bring any portion over to this board from Scrux, re the translated chapters of Joran's book.

Yes, I absolutely do believe we should be able to speak about all the things he mentions in the book, no matter how they reflect on any of the principals in this case. I even suggested this to FW via PM a few weeks back, but still have not gotten the go ahead. Remember there are chapters that do comment on the behavior of the teens, the types of making out they were doing, the behavior of the mother, etc.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

She doesn't even MENTION Jug in the Nashville Speakers' Bureau listing I just linked to.

Do you think that is honest? To mention only one of her marriages and not to mention the other marriage or either of the 2 divorces?

I don't think it is honest at all, expecially when one is trying to get business bookings for inspirational speaking (ie $$) based on that bio.

IMO

It is interesting we never here from/about Jug's former spouse who works in the bank for Jar. For some reason there seems to be more than normal secrecy about everyone in the Twitty extended family. :shrug:

[No Nic]

It is interesting we never here from/about Jug's former spouse who works in the bank for Jar. For some reason there seems to be more than normal secrecy about everyone in the Twitty extended family. :shrug:

With all the attempts of hate site "internet investigators" desperately scrambling to find dirt on the extended family and friends of the Twitty's since the beginning, their efforts finding nothing of substance....maybe there is nothing to hear and no secrecy. :shrug:

imo

[HiLife]

No, I have not changed my mind one iota. But, in the last few days different rules have been imposed on the board, IMO, and I want to make sure

with the moderator Riviera,

If it is OK to bring any portion over to this board from Scrux, re the translated chapters of Joran's book.

Yes, I absolutely do believe we should be able to speak about all the things he mentions in the book, no matter how they reflect on any of the principals in this case. I even suggested this to FW via PM a few weeks back, but still have not gotten the go ahead. Remember there are chapters that do comment on the behavior of the teens, the types of making out they were doing, the behavior of the mother, etc.

IMO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ortiga
We all link to Scrux, or many of us do, because it has the transcripts, interviews, videos, and translations.

Please don't try to stop us from linking to this supportive material. I hope that FW does not pay any attention to you.

I don't understand your motives in this.

Why are you trying to make a big deal about linking to Scrux?

IMO

Why in the world bother Riviera with something that has been fine? Or did you forget about the above post you previously posted, heavily in favor of Scrux, just because you don't agree with our posts today? lol!!!

jmo

[HiLife]

With all the attempts of hate site "internet investigators" desperately scrambling to find dirt on the extended family and friends of the Twitty's since the beginning, their efforts finding nothing of substance....maybe there is nothing to hear and no secrecy. :shrug:

imo

Yes, NN. There would be no reason for family and friends to expose themselves to the public and to the inevitable intrusion, criticisms and focus that the Holloway/Twitty family has had to endure.

Nothing sinister there. :shrug:

imo

[HiLife]

I purposely left that statement vague so the readers of the post could interpret it in any way they choose. Since you chose to interpret it as "scurrilous", then the onus is on you to prove that the insinuation is scurrilous, not me. Why does the mere mention of the beginnings of the Beth & Jug relationship cause such discomfort? Do you know something we don't?

It might be tricky, and IMO tarnish Beth's image to have to describe a relationship with a husband who has been omitted from the book. How do you do that?

For all I know, Beth and Jug met in a field of flowers while riding unicorns.

JMO

Jug is probably breathing a huge sigh of relief. I can't imagine he would want to be tied to this book in any possible way.

If Beth were to mention Jug, she may have to explain how their relationship began, and that could be tricky. Her image might be tarnished just a bit. We know the word "kidnapping" on the cover of the book was a real stretch of the truth, a total fabrication actually. Now we know that Jug has been eliminated from the book. It's unfortunate that anyone could still believe that this book is honest account of her life, or of anything at all.

JMO


Smooth. But I understand exactly what you insinuated here - scurrilous - about how they met.. Not their relationship now.

jmo

[ortiga]

Have you changed your mind?

From the Natalee II thread (post # 9030):

Why in the world bother Riviera with something that has been fine? Or did you forget about the above post you previously posted, heavily in favor of Scrux, just because you don't agree with our posts today? lol!!!

jmo

Please see my post # 116 above, I already answered the question. I asked FW once if it was OK quote any part of Joran's translated book that we wish to.

Now, I would like the moderator to give us the go ahead to quote from the translations of the book, as No Nic is doing.

It might not be pretty.

IMO

[HiLife]

Please see my post # 116 above, I already answered the question. I asked FW once if it was OK quote any part of Joran's translated book that we wish to.

Now, I would like the moderator to give us the go ahead to quote from the translations of the book, as No Nic is doing.

It might not be pretty.

IMO

Believe me, there is much more there about the author. Go for it. ;)

jmo

[ortiga]

Smooth. But I understand exactly what you insinuated here - scurrilous - about how they met.. Not their relationship now.

jmo

Why did Beth take Jug completely out of her bio page on the NS bureau, and present the image that she had not been married twice nor been divorced twice? This bureau arranges money making speech opportunities for Beth, don't you think it is very very dishonest to present oneself as an inspirational speaker with those, uh, omissions?

No important how they met, however that was, now people that want to hire her services for speaking engagements, for inspirational occasions won't even know that Jug ever existed in Beth's life!

IMO

[HiLife]

Why did Beth take Jug completely out of her bio page on the NS bureau, and present the image that she had not been married twice nor been divorced twice? This bureau arranges money making speech opportunities for Beth, don't you think it is very very dishonest to present oneself as an inspirational speaker with those, uh, omissions?

No important how they met, however that was, now people that want to hire her services for speaking engagements, for inspirational occasions won't even know that Jug ever existed in Beth's life!

IMO

First highlight: Who cares? What does her marital status have to do with anything? :shrug:

Second highlighted: If anyone knows how they met, I would love to hear the factual story - with proof. TIA.

jmo

[HiLife]

Please see my post # 116 above, I already answered the question. I asked FW once if it was OK quote any part of Joran's translated book that we wish to.

Now, I would like the moderator to give us the go ahead to quote from the translations of the book, as No Nic is doing.

It might not be pretty.

IMO

Just re-read your post and noticed this - You first said you wanted to know if parts of the translated book were ok. Now you want to know if we can quote from the "translations of the book"?

Isn't "translated book" the same as "translations from the book?" :confused:

jmo

[ortiga]

First highlight: Who cares? What does her marital status have to do with anything? :shrug:

Second highlighted: If anyone knows how they met, I would love to hear the factual story - with proof. TIA.

jmo

I don't know, nor do I care how they met.

But, if I was in charge of bookings for a religious or other organization, and I wanted to have a real inspirational speaker come to visit my group, I would want a speaker that presented their biographical details in an honest way.

Otherwise, how could they be inspirational if they were hiding that they had been married and divorced 2 times?

That is not "inspirational", IMO, and, given that the whole purpose is to make money off the speeches, quite disturbingly dishonest.

IMO

[ortiga]

Just re-read your post and noticed this - You first said you wanted to know if parts of the translated book were ok. Now you want to know if we can quote from the translations of the book"?

Isn't "translated book" the same as "translations from the book?" :confused:

jmo

I'm confused too, I don't know what you are talking about.

[HiLife]

I don't know, nor do I care how they met.

But, if I was in charge of bookings for a religious or other organization, and I wanted to have a real inspirational speaker come to visit my group, I would want a speaker that presented their biographical details in an honest way.

Otherwise, how could they be inspirational if they were hiding that they had been married and divorced 2 times?

That is not "inspirational", IMO, and, given that the whole purpose is to make money off the speeches, quite disturbingly dishonest.

IMO
Guess Beth is lucky it isn't you in charge of the bookings? :biggrin:

jmo

[HiLife]

I'm confused too, I don't know what you are talking about.

Somehow I doubt that. lol!

jmo

[ortiga]

Guess Beth is lucky it isn't you in charge of the bookings? :biggrin:

jmo

Beth is very lucky, IMO, because for a long time no one has asked her hard questions about the message she uses to raise funds.

Maybe one day someone will raise their hand and ask if she has any proof that her daughter was kidnapped, raped, and likely murdered in Aruba. And, why would she be allowed to bring this message to school children if she has no proof.

And, maybe someday someone will say, how can this woman give inspirational speeches?

She is the last woman I can think of that should be giving inspirational speeches and encouraging people to take her advice.

IMO

[HiLife]

Beth is very lucky, IMO, because for a long time no one has asked her hard questions about the message she uses to raise funds.

Maybe one day someone will raise their hand and ask if she has any proof that her daughter was kidnapped, raped, and likely murdered in Aruba. And, why would she be allowed to bring this message to school children if she has no proof.

And, maybe someday someone will say, how can this woman give inspirational speeches?

She is the last woman I can think of that should be giving inspirational speeches and encouraging people to take her advice.

IMO

Lucky for Beth that many do not seem to hold your opinion.

They have compassion for a mother who has lost her daughter and do not understand why the main suspects are free to write books, do interviews and mock the girl they are suspected of disappearing.

jmo

[SukiJane]

I agree.

When I give it the old "At whose home would I rather be a guest for dinner" test, the VDS's win every time. They seem like a warm, funny, and interesting family. I bet dinner at their house would be really enjoyable.
Dinner with Beth and....ahem...John Ramsay? Not so much.


JMO

All I can say is just be careful at that enjoyable dinner...oh, and you might want to leave your purse/wallet at home...Joran steals...oh, and try not to anger Joran, and stay away from windows and bridges while around him too. Oh, and don't drive your vehicle there, because you might have a smashed window when you return. That Joran, he's such a sweet boy.

jmo

[SukiJane]

Um...how old is Joran now ? 18 ? If so, Paulus and Anita have been married for less than 18 years, about 16, IIRC.

imo

That's kind of interesting, I wonder why they waited two years to get married after Joran was born. Seems like I remember Joran referring to his father by his first name. Did he know Paulus as his father for those first two years? ...weird!

jmo

[No Nic]

[QUOTE=SukiJane;8973605]All I can say is just be careful at that enjoyable dinner...oh, and you might want to leave your purse/wallet at home...Joran steals...oh, and try not to anger Joran, and stay away from windows and bridges while around him too. Oh, and don't drive your vehicle there, because you might have a smashed window when you return. That Joran, he's such a sweet boy.

jmo[/QUOTE


And most important of all don't get into a car with him or say you want to see sharks .

imo

[SukiJane]

This "photoshopping a picture sounds like something a serial killer would do"?

I'd like to see a reference to any case of a serial killer wherein that killer was found to be photoshopping 2 fully clothed kids together in a fake picture.

Why do you think he'd do such a thing...for sick fun? sick games?

Personally I think he would have been better off if he would have photoshopped 2 more heads on his body and sent the picture to Globe, as the world's only 3 headed liar.

jmo

[SukiJane]

All I can say is just be careful at that enjoyable dinner...oh, and you might want to leave your purse/wallet at home...Joran steals...oh, and try not to anger Joran, and stay away from windows and bridges while around him too. Oh, and don't drive your vehicle there, because you might have a smashed window when you return. That Joran, he's such a sweet boy.

jmo[/QUOTE


And most important of all don't get into a car with him or say you want to see sharks .

imo

Yes, and don't drink anything he offers you...it might make your lips go numb.:chicken:

imo

[HiLife]

All I can say is just be careful at that enjoyable dinner...oh, and you might want to leave your purse/wallet at home...Joran steals...oh, and try not to anger Joran, and stay away from windows and bridges while around him too. Oh, and don't drive your vehicle there, because you might have a smashed window when you return. That Joran, he's such a sweet boy.

jmo

Thanks for the heads up, Suki!

Also make sure, should an after dinner stroll occur, you go nowhere near a fire alarm. You know how that rascally Joran loves to pull them for no reason!

jmo

[SukiJane]

Thanks for the heads up, Suki!

Also make sure, should an after dinner stroll occur, you go nowhere near a fire alarm. You know how that rascally Joran loves to pull them for no reason!

jmo

You're most welcome.

That Joran, the little wascally wabbit...fire alarms too, huh? LOL

jmo

[HiLife]

You're most welcome.

That Joran, the little wascally wabbit...fire alarms too, huh? LOL

jmo

Info provided by 1K - Deepak Kalpoe- Joran's Book, Page 133, 135

If I knew I had the devil as a friend then I would not have let this happen. I have put my entire family under stress. I can give you a list of the problems that Joran has.

He himself has said he had stolen money from his mother. He also says
that if his brothers go into his room he beats them. Joran has completely
beaten up a guy at Bahia, because according to him the guy had told
something about him to the headmaster that was not true. Joran has destroyed more car front windows then any drug dealer on the island. Sometimes when we are out he says: Lets go! If we ask him what is going on he says he has smashed in a front window of a car.

P135

He also has admitted that he has stolen property from tourists several
times. He goes to the casino's since he was 16. Everywhere where he sees a
fire alarm he has to put it on. He has performed a lot of vandalism in
several hotels. That is what I know about Joran since I know him. By now I
also know he is a super liar.


jmo

[Chocoholic]

But but but, Joran lies, how can you believe anything he says?

[pnavas]

Beth is very lucky, IMO, because for a long time no one has asked her hard questions about the message she uses to raise funds.

Maybe one day someone will raise their hand and ask if she has any proof that her daughter was kidnapped, raped, and likely murdered in Aruba. And, why would she be allowed to bring this message to school children if she has no proof.

And, maybe someday someone will say, how can this woman give inspirational speeches?

She is the last woman I can think of that should be giving inspirational speeches and encouraging people to take her advice.

IMO

Well said. Unfortunately, I think many of the people who attend her lectures or will buy her book are so caught up in the fantasy that they would never, ever consider asking Beth a hard question. The new term for it is Grief Porn:

Grief Porn. (n). Gratification derived from a tenuous connection to the misfortunes of others; the gratuitous indulgence of tangential association with tragedy; getting off on really bad news.

If they asked Beth the hard questions, then the illusion of her as the suffering mother, Natalee as the raped and murdered virgin, Joran as the black-hearted villain, may all disappear. They would no longer be able to indulge their grief, indulge their self-righteous anger, or indulge their ethnocentricity. Some people, of course, not all.

Hopefully, though, someone will ask the questions that need to be asked.


JMO

[HiLife]

Well said. Unfortunately, I think many of the people who attend her lectures or will buy her book are so caught up in the fantasy that they would never, ever consider asking Beth a hard question. The new term for it is Grief Porn:

Grief Porn. (n). Gratification derived from a tenuous connection to the misfortunes of others; the gratuitous indulgence of tangential association with tragedy; getting off on really bad news.

If they asked Beth the hard questions, then the illusion of her as the suffering mother, Natalee as the raped and murdered virgin, Joran as the black-hearted villain, may all disappear. They would no longer be able to indulge their grief, indulge their self-righteous anger, or indulge their ethnocentricity. Some people, of course, not all.

Hopefully, though, someone will ask the questions that need to be asked.


JMO

Aaaah. So now, large portions of our population have a fear of their illusions disappearing? lolol! Gee, psychiatry sure has a bright future! lolol!

I say large portions of our population have compassion for a mother who has lost her daughter and can empathize with her feelings of grief and desire for justice against those who might have harmed her.

jmo

[ortiga]

Well said. Unfortunately, I think many of the people who attend her lectures or will buy her book are so caught up in the fantasy that they would never, ever consider asking Beth a hard question. The new term for it is Grief Porn:

Grief Porn. (n). Gratification derived from a tenuous connection to the misfortunes of others; the gratuitous indulgence of tangential association with tragedy; getting off on really bad news.

If they asked Beth the hard questions, then the illusion of her as the suffering mother, Natalee as the raped and murdered virgin, Joran as the black-hearted villain, may all disappear. They would no longer be able to indulge their grief, indulge their self-righteous anger, or indulge their ethnocentricity. Some people, of course, not all.

snipped


JMO

There is a market for everything. Just sad that Natalee's name is being used in this way. Beth couldn't just write a book on how she loved her daughter, and about her faith and hope.....she had to subtitle the book "the true story of the Aruba kidnapping and its aftermath". During her book launching appearances, I wonder if anyone will say....if you knew the truth why didn't you tell the FBI, the Dutch, or ALE? Why save the "truth" to market a book?

What a juxtaposition of inspiration and revenge. I guess there are markets for both, and a mixture guarantees a toehold into each market.

IMO

[No Nic]

Well said. Unfortunately, I think many of the people who attend her lectures or will buy her book are so caught up in the fantasy that they would never, ever consider asking Beth a hard question. The new term for it is Grief Porn:

Grief Porn. (n). Gratification derived from a tenuous connection to the misfortunes of others; the gratuitous indulgence of tangential association with tragedy; getting off on really bad news.

If they asked Beth the hard questions, then the illusion of her as the suffering mother, Natalee as the raped and murdered virgin, Joran as the black-hearted villain, may all disappear. They would no longer be able to indulge their grief, indulge their self-righteous anger, or indulge their ethnocentricity. Some people, of course, not all.

Hopefully, though, someone will ask the questions that need to be asked.


JMO

I have highlighted the only portion of your post that I believe to be truthful.

imo

[No Nic]

There is a market for everything. Just sad that Natalee's name is being used in this way. Beth couldn't just write a book on how she loved her daughter, and about her faith and hope.....she had to subtitle the book "the true story of the Aruba kidnapping and its aftermath". During her book launching appearances, I wonder if anyone will say....if you knew the truth why didn't you tell the FBI, the Dutch, or ALE? Why save the "truth" to market a book?

What a juxtaposition of inspiration and revenge. I guess there are markets for both, and a mixture guarantees a toehold into each market.

IMO

IMO, Beth does not need to tell the FBI, the Dutch or ALE the truth....they already know the truth and have for a very long time.

IMO

[Heyes]

I am wondering if it is now OK to put all parts of Joran's book here, despite that it was translated by who knows who.

There are many parts here that shed light on the behavior of the teens after they left the bar, quite personal details about what happened, and other parts that claim some conversation between Croes and Beth, which was very personal.

It would seem that if it is OK here on this board to pick out Joran's translated text as being the truth, then the whole book should be seen as the truth.

I don't have time right now, but if the moderator says it is OK to quote from this translation of Joran's book, that is OK for posters to pick things out of context to try to make Joran look bad, then I would ask the moderator if it is OK to pick out the things he says that are not flattering to other players.

Riviera??? OK to quote from the translation of Joran's book as published on Scrux.com? As No Nic and others are doing?

Always good to get an OK or not OK.

UM... we don't have to TRY to make joran look bad. He does this all on his own.

[Heyes]

Lucky for Beth that many do not seem to hold your opinion.

They have compassion for a mother who has lost her daughter and do not understand why the main suspects are free to write books, do interviews and mock the girl they are suspected of disappearing.

jmo

BUMP!

Beth has been very successful, People love her, and have compassion for her.
Looks like that just irks a handful of people to no end. GOOD~

[Heyes]

Info provided by 1K - Deepak Kalpoe- Joran's Book, Page 133, 135

If I knew I had the devil as a friend then I would not have let this happen. I have put my entire family under stress. I can give you a list of the problems that Joran has.

He himself has said he had stolen money from his mother. He also says
that if his brothers go into his room he beats them. Joran has completely
beaten up a guy at Bahia, because according to him the guy had told
something about him to the headmaster that was not true. Joran has destroyed more car front windows then any drug dealer on the island. Sometimes when we are out he says: Lets go! If we ask him what is going on he says he has smashed in a front window of a car.

P135

He also has admitted that he has stolen property from tourists several
times. He goes to the casino's since he was 16. Everywhere where he sees a
fire alarm he has to put it on. He has performed a lot of vandalism in
several hotels. That is what I know about Joran since I know him. By now I
also know he is a super liar.


jmo

And for punishment anita and paulus gave him his very own apt. Good going parents. That's teaching him. Bet the brothers relieved though.

[Heyes]

IMO, Beth does not need to tell the FBI, the Dutch or ALE the truth....they already know the truth and have for a very long time.

IMO


heh, yeah she got that one backwards, the ale, dutch and the FBI told Beth and just to make it stick j2k gets suspect status. It Wasn't Beth that had that power in aruba, nope but somehow this little aspect of everyone who's been on that island (law enforcement) believes j2k are reponsible gets overlooked. Blaming Beth for Natalee's disappearance makes no sense, IMO but maybe they think people will hear it enough and buy it. I don't think it's working but it does make the vds's feel better. IMO

[Heyes]

I believe that paulus and anita van der sloot are involved in this case up to their eyeballs. It's what I think and feel I have different reasons for why I think the Petersons are off their rocker as well. Just my opinion.
just thought I'd clear that up. No links obviously

[HiLife]

<respectfully snipped for emphasis>

To me it's like he wants to let the world know he got away with it,yet he can't because of his on going primary suspect status.

<snipped for emphasis>

He just can't help but want to smirk and put it in peoples faces. So what was enough money to sell his sick picture??? I wonder what he thought he'd get for that. I bet most people that he shopped it to were sickened and creeped out. I know I would be.

IMO

You've been right all along about this, Heyes, and I completely agree. It does seem Joran is splitting at the seams just dying for people to know what he did. He keeps circling and circling - with the TV interviews, magazine interviews, his (fiction) book, and whatever he has planned next up his sleeve to promote himself further.

I haven't gotten past the shock of a murder suspect photoshopping the person he is suspected of disappearing (at best) and planning to profit. Excellent observation.......... about prospective buyers being repulsed (and imagine the public's reaction!) at the thought of aiding such a blatant mockery of a young lady who is thought to be dead - by the man suspected of harming her. :flamemad: ( <----I've never used this icon -but this is the perfect moment!)

jmo

[No Nic]

You've been right all along about this, Heyes, and I completely agree. It does seem Joran is splitting at the seams just dying for people to know what he did. He keeps circling and circling - with the TV interviews, magazine interviews, his (fiction) book, and whatever he has planned next up his sleeve to promote himself further.

I haven't gotten past the shock of a murder suspect photoshopping the person he is suspected of disappearing (at best) and planning to profit. Excellent observation.......... about prospective buyers being repulsed (and imagine the public's reaction!) at the thought of aiding such a blatant mockery of a young lady who is thought to be dead - by the man suspected of harming her. :flamemad: ( <----I've never used this icon -but this is the perfect moment!)

jmo

I find it funny that Joran said the photoshopped pix was not good enough quality to sell to the National Enquirer. Now we all know that the NL is well know for their high quality photos (;) ). More likely....even that trash tabloid was not interested in this vile, black hearted act by the prime suspect in the kidnap, rape and murder of the girl he photoshopped himself into a picture of.
imo

[Riviera]

To All Members,

The constant bickering has made this discussion completely unproductive. All bickering, stating opinions as facts, sarcastic remarks etc... will be met with deletions and infractions so that those who persist with the hostile, unfriendly, and uncivil tone will be quickly sent on vaction so that the others can proceed with a civil discussion.

Freshwater

Bump for reminder.

Thank you
R

[Heyes]

I find it funny that Joran said the photoshopped pix was not good enough quality to sell to the National Enquirer. Now we all know that the NL is well know for their high quality photos (;) ). More likely....even that trash tabloid was not interested in this vile, black hearted act by the prime suspect in the kidnap, rape and murder of the girl he photoshopped himself into a picture of.
imo

I think he thought he'd land a fat check with a little shock value, a sick and disturbed act. IMO
OR, is he lying again? How exactly did we all become aware of that picture?
Perhaps this isn't close to why he decided in that black heart to use this missing young lady in such a vulgar manner?

[No Nic]

I think he thought he'd land a fat check with a little shock value, a sick and disturbed act. IMO
OR, is he lying again? How exactly did we all become aware of that picture?
Perhaps this isn't close to why he decided in that black heart to use this missing young lady in such a vulgar manner?

The Dutch investigative reporter, DeVries was the 1st to report on this pix and how Joran had photoshopped it, IIRC. Joran initially denied he was responsible for the pix (surprise, surprise, Joran lies again).

imo

[Chocoholic]

I think he thought he'd land a fat check with a little shock value, a sick and disturbed act. IMO
OR, is he lying again? How exactly did we all become aware of that picture?
Perhaps this isn't close to why he decided in that black heart to use this missing young lady in such a vulgar manner?

More vulgar than for a stepfather to "coach" his daughter and to have intimate knowledge of her grooming habits and to then speak about it publicly?

More vulgar than to call people criminals who have never been convicted or charged of a crime?

More vulgar than calling these same people gangrapists, kidnappers and murderers?

IMO all far more vulgar than some photoshopping.

[No Nic]

More vulgar than for a stepfather to "coach" his daughter and to have intimate knowledge of her grooming habits and to then speak about it publicly?

More vulgar than to call people criminals who have never been convicted or charged of a crime?

More vulgar than calling these same people gangrapists, kidnappers and murderers?

IMO all far more vulgar than some photoshopping.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

imo

[fairmaiden]

More vulgar than for a stepfather to "coach" his daughter and to have intimate knowledge of her grooming habits and to then speak about it publicly?

More vulgar than to call people criminals who have never been convicted or charged of a crime?

More vulgar than calling these same people gangrapists, kidnappers and murderers?

IMO all far more vulgar than some photoshopping.

Well, Choco .... I suppose it depends on what "context" one is going to use the word "vulgar".

The photoshopped picture .... I can think of many things to say about that .... how about "stupid" .... "insensitive" .... "dumb", etc. Vulgar ?? That wouldn't be a classification I would use.

For a stepfather to talk about his stepdaughter's grooming habits is something entirely different. I haven't heard him do this. In fact, since the beginning of this saga, I haven't seen Jug much at all. The only time I've ever seen him contribute anything to a conversation, was probably the Nancy Grace interview way back in October, 2005, IIRC.

Why/when was he talking about Natalee's personal grooming habits ??

JMO

[HiLife]

Well, Choco .... I suppose it depends on what "context" one is going to use the word "vulgar".

The photoshopped picture .... I can think of many things to say about that .... how about "stupid" .... "insensitive" .... "dumb", etc. Vulgar ?? That wouldn't be a classification I would use.

For a stepfather to talk about his stepdaughter's grooming habits is something entirely different. I haven't heard him do this. In fact, since the beginning of this saga, I haven't seen Jug much at all. The only time I've ever seen him contribute anything to a conversation, was probably the Nancy Grace interview way back in October, 2005, IIRC.

Why/when was he talking about Natalee's personal grooming habits ??JMO

Thank you for asking this question, FM. Hopefully this transcript will resolve once and for all the sleazy rumors perpetuated about the actual conversation that happened.

I personally watched this Nancy Grace show when it aired and NOTHING has been "edited out." This is exactly how the conversation happened. To claim "editing" is just another way excuse the slinging of trashy rumors at the family.

Jug, by phone, was asked by Nancy Grace specifically regarding the undergarments. Jug's knowledge could easily have come from Beth about the underwear, as I'm sure they discussed this the minute they'd heard Joran talking about it. He did NOT have to personally know and IMO he did NOT know. Looking at Beth during the interview - she looked absolutely crushed, weak and in grief. Jug was obviously speaking as a team with her and was stronger to take the questions.

Please read this and I would be interested in your opinion of this conversation! :)

jmo

===============================

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/04/ng.01.html

GRACE: You know, another issue came up. I`m going to go out to Jug Twitty. He`s standing by in Birmingham, Alabama -- obviously, Beth`s husband, Natalee`s stepfather. Jug, was there a very detailed statement describing Natalee`s underwear?

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, MISSING GIRL`S STEPFATHER: Yes.

GRACE: What happened?

JUG TWITTY: Nancy, what happened -- well, I think it was probably about 30 days after, or so, maybe the 1st of July or something. I had a meeting with Van Der Straaten, who was the police chief in charge at that time. And I went in and sat down with him and told him and Officer Sanboe (ph), who was going to take over for Van Der Straaten. He was there, too.

You know, I asked a question about, I understand that there was a statement made by Joran, where he talks about what he had done to Natalee and he described in very graphic detail, like, the stitching and embroidery and everything on Natalee`s underwear. And he goes, Oh, no, no, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Well, little did he know I had just read the statements where Joran describes that to the "T," you know, two days before. But of course, I didn`t tell him that. But that`s just when I started to think something`s wrong here.

GRACE: And the reality is, how would Joran Van Der Sloot have known about embroidery and the design on her underwear if he hadn`t seen it? According to them, they were all in the back seat of the car. There had been no sex assault, nothing. How would he have known that?

[ortiga]

"Beth, you were just -- we were talking about the fact Joran Van Der Sloot, who swears now there was no sex between him and Natalee, gave a very detailed description of Natalee`s underwear, the embroidery on it and all that. But you just revealed a new fact to me I didn`t know.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, not only did he know specific details about her underclothing, but also just physical descriptions of her, so...

GRACE: Without her clothes on.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes.

GRACE: I`ll put it as gently as I possibly can.

(((something missing here....what did Grace put as gently as she could"????)))

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes."
---------------------------------------------------------------
There is something missing in the transcript right after Grace says "I'll put it as gently as I can".

What did she put "gently"????? It is not in the transcript, and that was where the "physical descriptions of her.......without her clothes on".....were mentioned.

The transcript was cut for either length or edited to remove the (IMO) prurient content of what was being discussed about Natalee's body, that Joran had reportedly mentioned in his statements. IMO

If someone has access to the statements of Joran, the description is included therein, IIRC.

IMO

Also, further in the same interview

"GRACE: You know, I want to go out very quickly to David Wohl, defense attorney. David, this is a guy that swears, on one hand, that he did not have sex with Natalee Holloway, which many people would have thought to be non-consensual, but yet has chosen to give police a description of her underwear and her private parts -- the girl`s private parts, all right?"

-------------------------------
This was discussed on the Grace show, and was right in that place that has been edited to omit what Grace was putting gently to Beth. Many people saw the show, and we know what was referred to on the show, what Nancy is referring to in the above quote.

I don't understand, since we are all adults on this forum, why we are not supposed to discuss this.

IMO

[No Nic]

"Beth, you were just -- we were talking about the fact Joran Van Der Sloot, who swears now there was no sex between him and Natalee, gave a very detailed description of Natalee`s underwear, the embroidery on it and all that. But you just revealed a new fact to me I didn`t know.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, not only did he know specific details about her underclothing, but also just physical descriptions of her, so...

GRACE: Without her clothes on.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes.

GRACE: I`ll put it as gently as I possibly can.

(((something missing here....what did Grace put as gently as she could"????)))

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes."
---------------------------------------------------------------
There is something missing in the transcript right after Grace says "I'll put it as gently as I can".

What did she put "gently"????? It is not in the transcript, and that was where the "physical descriptions of her.......without her clothes on".....were mentioned.

The transcript was cut for either length or edited to remove the (IMO) prurient content of what was being discussed about Natalee's body, that Joran had reportedly mentioned in his statements. IMO

If someone has access to the statements of Joran, the description is included therein, IIRC.

IMO

Hmmm...Beth and Nancy Grace. Still nothing to support what you have unjustly accused the step father. Thanks. Now I think I will step away from this conversation, before it becomes the same as the recently deleted disgusting posts. :seeya:

imo

[HiLife]

"Beth, you were just -- we were talking about the fact Joran Van Der Sloot, who swears now there was no sex between him and Natalee, gave a very detailed description of Natalee`s underwear, the embroidery on it and all that. But you just revealed a new fact to me I didn`t know.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, not only did he know specific details about her underclothing, but also just physical descriptions of her, so...

GRACE: Without her clothes on.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes.

GRACE: I`ll put it as gently as I possibly can.

(((something missing here....what did Grace put as gently as she could"????)))

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes."
---------------------------------------------------------------
There is something missing in the transcript right after Grace says "I'll put it as gently as I can".

What did she put "gently"????? It is not in the transcript, and that was where the "physical descriptions of her.......without her clothes on".....were mentioned.

The transcript was cut for either length or edited to remove the (IMO) prurient content of what was being discussed about Natalee's body, that Joran had reportedly mentioned in his statements. IMO

If someone has access to the statements of Joran, the description is included therein, IIRC.

IMO

I'm hoping we can have a productive discussion about this issue, without any rancor, or demeaning insinuations, in order to finally put this distasteful subject to rest. If there is further proof to back up the "personal grooming" statements, I would like to see it. Nothing to date has proven this.

I saw the interview personally and this was it. Nothing taken out. You've seen Beth's interviews - she interrupts before the interviewer is finished asking questions. THis is what explains the "gap" (though I don't see the "gap")

As far as further description posted above, Beth and Jug were SURE to have discussed Joran's statements and most assuredly, BETH would know what Natalee looked like and probably told Jug what was or wasn't true.

jmo

[ortiga]

Hmmm...Beth and Nancy Grace. Still nothing to support what you have unjustly accused the step father. Thanks. Now I think I will step away from this conversation, before it becomes the same as the recently deleted disgusting posts. :seeya:

imo

Before you step away, please link to what I have "unjustly accused the step father" of, and when I said that.

Link required for this accusation.

IMO

[SukiJane]

"Beth, you were just -- we were talking about the fact Joran Van Der Sloot, who swears now there was no sex between him and Natalee, gave a very detailed description of Natalee`s underwear, the embroidery on it and all that. But you just revealed a new fact to me I didn`t know.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, not only did he know specific details about her underclothing, but also just physical descriptions of her, so...

GRACE: Without her clothes on.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes.

GRACE: I`ll put it as gently as I possibly can.

(((something missing here....what did Grace put as gently as she could"????)))

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes."
---------------------------------------------------------------
There is something missing in the transcript right after Grace says "I'll put it as gently as I can".

What did she put "gently"????? It is not in the transcript, and that was where the "physical descriptions of her.......without her clothes on".....were mentioned.

The transcript was cut for either length or edited to remove the (IMO) prurient content of what was being discussed about Natalee's body, that Joran had reportedly mentioned in his statements. IMO

If someone has access to the statements of Joran, the description is included therein, IIRC.

IMO

Also, further in the same interview

"GRACE: You know, I want to go out very quickly to David Wohl, defense attorney. David, this is a guy that swears, on one hand, that he did not have sex with Natalee Holloway, which many people would have thought to be non-consensual, but yet has chosen to give police a description of her underwear and her private parts -- the girl`s private parts, all right?"

-------------------------------
This was discussed on the Grace show, and was right in that place that has been edited to omit what Grace was putting gently to Beth. Many people saw the show, and we know what was referred to on the show, what Nancy is referring to in the above quote.

I don't understand, since we are all adults on this forum, why we are not supposed to discuss this.

IMO

I remember watching this show, and I'll never forget the hurt look on Beth's face, crushed, almost to the point of tears when the camera was on her at that moment. Nancy noticed this, just like everybody else watching the show did, and said..."I'll put it as gently as I possibly can" and quickly turns to David Wohl.



IMO

[HiLife]

I remember watching this show, and I'll never forget the hurt look on Beth's face, crushed, almost to the point of tears when the camera was on her at that moment. Nancy noticed this, just like everybody else watching the show did, and said..."I'll put it as gently as I possibly can" and quickly turns to David Wohl.

IMO

Good memory, Suki. THis is exactly how it went down. Beth looked (the only word for it - CRUSHED). Nancy did look at her and trailed off.

Thanks for refreshing my recollection!

jmo

[ortiga]

"Beth, you were just -- we were talking about the fact Joran Van Der Sloot, who swears now there was no sex between him and Natalee, gave a very detailed description of Natalee`s underwear, the embroidery on it and all that. But you just revealed a new fact to me I didn`t know.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, not only did he know specific details about her underclothing, but also just physical descriptions of her, so...

GRACE: Without her clothes on.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes.

GRACE: I`ll put it as gently as I possibly can.

(((something missing here....what did Grace put as gently as she could"????)))

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes."
---------------------------------------------------------------
There is something missing in the transcript right after Grace says "I'll put it as gently as I can".

What did she put "gently"????? It is not in the transcript, and that was where the "physical descriptions of her.......without her clothes on".....were mentioned.

The transcript was cut for either length or edited to remove the (IMO) prurient content of what was being discussed about Natalee's body, that Joran had reportedly mentioned in his statements. IMO

If someone has access to the statements of Joran, the description is included therein, IIRC.

IMO

Also, further in the same interview

"GRACE: You know, I want to go out very quickly to David Wohl, defense attorney. David, this is a guy that swears, on one hand, that he did not have sex with Natalee Holloway, which many people would have thought to be non-consensual, but yet has chosen to give police a description of her underwear and her private parts -- the girl`s private parts, all right?"

-------------------------------
This was discussed on the Grace show, and was right in that place that has been edited to omit what Grace was putting gently to Beth. Many people saw the show, and we know what was referred to on the show, what Nancy is referring to in the above quote.

I don't understand, since we are all adults on this forum, why we are not supposed to discuss this.

IMO

Hmmm...Beth and Nancy Grace. Still nothing to support what you have unjustly accused the step father. Thanks. Now I think I will step away from this conversation, before it becomes the same as the recently deleted disgusting posts. :seeya:

imo


Please link to where I have "unjustly accused the step father".

[HiLife]

Please link to where I have "unjustly accused the step father".

C'mon, Ortiga. Let's have a nice discussion about this. Pretty, please?

jmo

eta - Where are you, Fairmaiden? I'd like to hear your thoughts as well. (I know the Spector Trial and Maddie McCann case are hopping right now!)

[SukiJane]

Good memory, Suki. THis is exactly how it went down. Beth looked (the only word for it - CRUSHED). Nancy did look at her and trailed off.

Thanks for refreshing my recollection!

jmo

Heck, if I had known this was the interview many posters making the claim of what the stepfather said about Natalee was based on, I would have said something a long time ago. I thought it was from some interview I had never seen.

So, I guess whenever we see a gap somewhere in a transcript, we should all feel free to insert whatever we want...lol

C'mon people, a little honesty on this message board would be nice!

jmo

[ortiga]

C'mon, Ortiga. Let's have a nice discussion about this. Pretty, please?

jmo

eta - Where are you, Fairmaiden? I'd like to hear your thoughts as well. (I know the Spector Trial and Maddie McCann case are hopping right now!)

Hi Life, you see what No Nic is doing, you want me to accept that she/he accuses me of saying something I never said, and then refers to "disgusting posts recently deleted" as though they were mine?

I'm sorry but this is the last straw from that poster, there was nothing in my post even mentioning Jug, and nothing in my previous posts about Jug and grooming.

I have reported No Nic, once more, to R and to FW, and I ask No Nic for a link to where I did what that poster accuses me of.

IMO

[HiLife]

Heck, if I had known this was the interview many posters making the claim of what the stepfather said about Natalee was based on, I would have said something a long time ago. I thought it was from some interview I had never seen.

So, I guess whenever we see a gap somewhere in a transcript, we should all feel free to insert whatever we want...lol

C'mon people, a little honesty on this message board would be nice!

jmo

Yes, this is the transcript from which all the innuendo derives from. In truth, to me, there are simple explanations based on what happened, such as Nancy realizing Beth was becoming emotional. The looks on everyone's faces explained the story. When reading a transcript, it is hard to know all the other physical activity that took place. So glad you remembered that bit and why Nancy trailed off.

jmo

[terrysdoor]

Thank you for asking this question, FM. Hopefully this transcript will resolve once and for all the sleazy rumors perpetuated about the actual conversation that happened.

I personally watched this Nancy Grace show when it aired and NOTHING has been "edited out." This is exactly how the conversation happened. To claim "editing" is just another way excuse the slinging of trashy rumors at the family.

Jug, by phone, was asked by Nancy Grace specifically regarding the undergarments. Jug's knowledge could easily have come from Beth about the underwear, as I'm sure they discussed this the minute they'd heard Joran talking about it. He did NOT have to personally know and IMO he did NOT know. Looking at Beth during the interview - she looked absolutely crushed, weak and in grief. Jug was obviously speaking as a team with her and was stronger to take the questions.

Please read this and I would be interested in your opinion of this conversation! :)

jmo

===============================

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/04/ng.01.html

GRACE: You know, another issue came up. I`m going to go out to Jug Twitty. He`s standing by in Birmingham, Alabama -- obviously, Beth`s husband, Natalee`s stepfather. Jug, was there a very detailed statement describing Natalee`s underwear?

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY, MISSING GIRL`S STEPFATHER: Yes.

GRACE: What happened?

JUG TWITTY: Nancy, what happened -- well, I think it was probably about 30 days after, or so, maybe the 1st of July or something. I had a meeting with Van Der Straaten, who was the police chief in charge at that time. And I went in and sat down with him and told him and Officer Sanboe (ph), who was going to take over for Van Der Straaten. He was there, too.

You know, I asked a question about, I understand that there was a statement made by Joran, where he talks about what he had done to Natalee and he described in very graphic detail, like, the stitching and embroidery and everything on Natalee`s underwear. And he goes, Oh, no, no, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Well, little did he know I had just read the statements where Joran describes that to the "T," you know, two days before. But of course, I didn`t tell him that. But that`s just when I started to think something`s wrong here.

GRACE: And the reality is, how would Joran Van Der Sloot have known about embroidery and the design on her underwear if he hadn`t seen it? According to them, they were all in the back seat of the car. There had been no sex assault, nothing. How would he have known that?

I wonder where Jug read the statement from Joran and why he did not want to tell he had read it IMO

[HiLife]

I wonder where Jug read the statement from Joran and why he did not want to tell he had read it IMO

That's the question I have, too, terry! WHERE? I can see Jug withholding the info that he'd read it, just to see what Joran would say.

Also, remember when Greta had a show saying that when she and Beth were at the VDS house, that AVDS repeated what Joran had told her regarding intimate things about Natalee, and Greta said she felt like crawling under the table (close paraphrase)?

What is your opinion on this transcript, though? Does it sound as ugly as has been rumored?

jmo

[SukiJane]

Yes, this is the transcript from which all the innuendo derives from. In truth, to me, there are simple explanations based on what happened, such as Nancy realizing Beth was becoming emotional. The looks on everyone's faces explained the story. When reading a transcript, it is hard to know all the other physical activity that took place. So glad you remembered that bit and why Nancy trailed off.

jmo

Many things I don't remember, but I certainly remember the look on Beth's face that night, Nancy noticed and the camera people noticed it too as the camera quickly turned away. A very weird moment, and it came across in the transcript as something weird as well.

Thanks for linking us all to that transcript!!

jmo

[ortiga]

That's the question I have, too, terry! WHERE? I can see Jug withholding the info that he'd read it, just to see what Joran would say.

Also, remember when Greta had a show saying that when she and Beth were at the VDS house, that AVDS repeated what Joran had told her regarding intimate things about Natalee, and Greta said she felt like crawling under the table (close paraphrase)?

What is your opinion on this transcript, though? Does it sound as ugly as has been rumored?

jmo

Nothing can be proven without the video, as people remember that interview, nearly 2 years ago, differently. And, IMO, it is obvious that something was edited out, which is not remarkable as those transcripts are frequently sanitized and/or shortened.

IMO

[HiLife]

Nothing can be proven without the video, as people remember that interview, nearly 2 years ago, differently. And, IMO, it is obvious that something was edited out, which is not remarkable as those transcripts are frequently sanitized and/or shortened.

IMO

So the dispute is what caused the gap? Because the words there alone, to me, refute the innuendo about Jug. Additionally, I watched that interview with great interest (many of us did and extensively discussed it the next day) and nothing has been edited out of the transcript posted.

Besides, can you imagine the outrage that would have ensued on the board if the interview had been edited out/doctored in any way?? It would have been blogged-about extensively if it had.

Wonder if Luke could find it!

Where are you, Luke of Links? :hat:

jmo

[terrysdoor]

That's the question I have, too, terry! WHERE? I can see Jug withholding the info that he'd read it, just to see what Joran would say.

Also, remember when Greta had a show saying that when she and Beth were at the VDS house, that AVDS repeated what Joran had told her regarding intimate things about Natalee, and Greta said she felt like crawling under the table (close paraphrase)?

What is your opinion on this transcript, though? Does it sound as ugly as has been rumored?

jmo

I really don`t know what to think of the interview i guess some find it odd that it was discussed on tv but what caught my attention was Jug saying he had read Joran`s statement IMO

[SukiJane]

Nothing can be proven without the video, as people remember that interview, nearly 2 years ago, differently. And, IMO, it is obvious that something was edited out, which is not remarkable as those transcripts are frequently sanitized and/or shortened.

IMO


It's not obvious to me something was edited out, because I watched the show.

jmo

[HiLife]

I really don`t know what to think of the interview i guess some find it odd that it was discussed on tv but what caught my attention was Jug saying he had read Joran`s statement IMO

How much information would anyone expect to have about any given case, outside the immediate family and principals involved? I believe this is a detail only the Twittys/Holloways can know. We'll probably never know!

jmo

[SukiJane]

I really don`t know what to think of the interview i guess some find it odd that it was discussed on tv but what caught my attention was Jug saying he had read Joran`s statement IMO

Looks like to me someone close to the investigation was leaking information to the family. If you notice many times when the family was talking about the case, they would mention someone close to the investigation. They had knowledge of things, yet ALE was not keeping them informed. It would be interesting to know who was leaking this information.

jmo

[No Nic]

Before you step away, please link to what I have "unjustly accused the step father" of, and when I said that.

Link required for this accusation.

IMO

I cannot link to the posts I was referring to (the moderator has deleted them) and many times when "you" is used it is a "general" you or a particular side of the fence.

The general "you" accused the step father of discussing things personal and private of the missing girl, with an obvious tone of impropriety, imo. I have yet to see any verification.

imo

[ortiga]

That's the question I have, too, terry! WHERE? I can see Jug withholding the info that he'd read it, just to see what Joran would say.

snipped

jmo

He wasn't wanting to see what Joran would say, he was waiting to see what Van Der Straaten would say...about statements that Joran had made in statements that Jug had already seen.

[terrysdoor]

How much information would anyone expect to have about any given case, outside the immediate family and principals involved? I believe this is a detail only the Twittys/Holloways can know. We'll probably never know!

jmo

I agree Hi sometimes i think we will never know what happend IMO too many people have said so many things i don`t know what to believe IMO

[terrysdoor]

Looks like to me someone close to the investigation was leaking information to the family. If you notice many times when the family was talking about the case, they would mention someone close to the investigation. They had knowledge of things, yet ALE was not keeping them informed. It would be interesting to know who was leaking this information.

jmo

Suki i believe Jossy had a lot to do with misinformation given to the family of course this is my opinion

[Riviera]

Let's be clear

Calling Joran etc. murderers, rapists, criminals - It is very common for the last person to see a person who then goes missing to be considered a POI. That some have reached a conclusion of foul play by these POIs is fine. Just state it as YOUR OPINION. Whether you agree or not - it is equally logical to assume Natalee did not run away but meet with foul play. If she met with foul play it is logical to assume that those last in her company might well have done something to her. State opinions as such and there will be no issues here.

Talking about Natalee giving Joran a blow job - OK but so what? Even if I were to assume this is true it most certainly would not imply that if some thing tragic happened to Natalee (say rape) that even instigating a BJ would make raping her OK. Rape is an act of violence not sex and even if a woman is naked on a beach - no man has a right to rape her. period. Blaming the victim just doesn't fly - and no I am not saying that Natalee was a victim of foul play but if this is your position (no crime committed) then don't IMPLY that if there was a crime somehow she deserved it.

Natalee was secretly a prostitute - No way!!! Again this is baseless and victim bashing. I will not allow it.


Jug talking about Natalee's privates - OK let's say that Jug was sexually molesting his step daughter (this is a BIG IF by the way....) but so what... He wasn't in Aruba at the time of the disappearance. If you want to assume that an incestuous relationship existed and that Natalee planned to run away in Aruba because of it then I would think there would have been some planning on Natalee's part. Any additional evidence that she planned to leave? Do you all believe that Beth Twitty would not call JUG out in public if she even suspected any wrong doing on his part? For those that think BHT would go there with Joran et al. without "proof" you don't think she would go there with her ex husband if she even remotely suspected? How about Dave Holloway? Do you think he would remain silent if there was even a suspicion on his part? If you do then make your case and stated it as your opinion only.


Follow the Rules/Play Nice

Freshwater

Bump as a reminder.

Thank you

R

[HiLife]

He wasn't wanting to see what Joran would say, he was waiting to see what Van Der Straaten would say...about statements that Joran had made in statements that Jug had already seen.

This is probably true.

From various statements on the internet regarding Van der Straaten, the Twittys were probably very wary/distrustful of him. In Joran's statements, Van der Straaten seems very sympathetic to Joran (remember how he offered Joran to place him in a pscyh ward instead of prison if he told the truth? - paraphrased) and the Holloway'Twittys probably picked up on that.

jmo

[ortiga]

So the dispute is what caused the gap? Because the words there alone, to me, refute the innuendo about Jug. Additionally, I watched that interview with great interest (many of us did and extensively discussed it the next day) and nothing has been edited out of the transcript posted.

Besides, can you imagine the outrage that would have ensued on the board if the interview had been edited out/doctored in any way?? It would have been blogged-about extensively if it had.

Wonder if Luke could find it!

Where are you, Luke of Links? :hat:

jmo

The interview HAS been blogged about extensively, referring to the gap. Many posters remember the discussion about what was referred to about Natalee's body without her clothes on.

This is pretty ridiculous that we can't say what the topic was....talking around the topic makes it sound terrible when in reality it was something commonly done for bathing suit wearers.

IMO

[HiLife]

I agree Hi sometimes i think we will never know what happend IMO too many people have said so many things i don`t know what to believe IMO

Good point. Everything in those early days was flying fast and furious. Too many people unnecessarily involved (yes, Jossy is one of them!), causing too much confusion and not to mention, causing so many wild goose chases.

jmo

[HiLife]

The interview HAS been blogged about extensively, referring to the gap. Many posters remember the discussion about what was referred to about Natalee's body without her clothes on.

This is pretty ridiculous that we can't say what the topic was....talking around the topic makes it sound terrible when in reality it was something commonly done for bathing suit wearers.

IMO
But.....the question is not if she did or didn't.

The question here is - Are the accusations of Jug's knowing these details actually true. Should it be perpetuated here?

jmo

[ortiga]

I cannot link to the posts I was referring to (the moderator has deleted them) and many times when "you" is used it is a "general" you or a particular side of the fence.

The general "you" accused the step father of discussing things personal and private of the missing girl, with an obvious tone of impropriety, imo. I have yet to see any verification.

imo

this is what you said, after quoting my post

"Originally Posted by No Nic
Hmmm...Beth and Nancy Grace. Still nothing to support what you have unjustly accused the step father. Thanks. Now I think I will step away from this conversation, before it becomes the same as the recently deleted disgusting posts."
-----------------------


Frankly I am getting very very tired of your accusations, that I say things I do not say. It makes no difference that posts were deleted because I never said anything about Jug and grooming. I did not "unjustly accuse" the step father.

Your excuse that "you" is general doesn't fly. It is absolutely clear that you were accusing ME.

Leave me alone, and if you quote me, quote ME and don't attribute other posters ideas to ME.

TIA

[ortiga]

This is probably true.

From various statements on the internet regarding Van der Straaten, the Twittys were probably very wary/distrustful of him. In Joran's statements, Van der Straaten seems very sympathetic to Joran (remember how he offered Joran to place him in a pscyh ward instead of prison if he told the truth? - paraphrased) and the Holloway'Twittys probably picked up on that.

jmo


I was referring to what Jug said on NG, as quoted above, that he asked VDStratten about certain things that he had seen on Joran's statements.

[terrysdoor]

Good point. Everything in those early days was flying fast and furious. Too many people unnecessarily involved (yes, Jossy is one of them!), causing too much confusion and not to mention, causing so many wild goose chases.

jmo

you are so right and the sad part about is noone has tried to corect anything even the news media IMO

[HiLife]

I was referring to what Jug said on NG, as quoted above, that he asked VDStratten about certain things that he had seen on Joran's statements.



JUG TWITTY: Nancy, what happened -- well, I think it was probably about 30 days after, or so, maybe the 1st of July or something. I had a meeting with Van Der Straaten, who was the police chief in charge at that time. And I went in and sat down with him and told him and Officer Sanboe (ph), who was going to take over for Van Der Straaten. He was there, too.

You know, I asked a question about, I understand that there was a statement made by Joran, where he talks about what he had done to Natalee and he described in very graphic detail, like, the stitching and embroidery and everything on Natalee`s underwear. And he goes, Oh, no, no, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Well, little did he know I had just read the statements where Joran describes that to the "T," you know, two days before. But of course, I didn`t tell him that. But that`s just when I started to think something`s wrong here.

Yes, you are correct.

Jug had asked Van Der Straaten about a statement he had read where Joran said those things and Van Der Straaten denied it, not knowing Jug had read a statement from Joran.

Also, "to a T" also means "with perfect details" - not that he knew. Beth could have confirmed this (the details) to him when Jug later told her what was contained in Joran's statement -

or who knows??? Maybe BOTH Beth and Jug read this statement from Joran?

We cannot know these details.

jmo

[SukiJane]

you are so right and the sad part about is noone has tried to corect anything even the news media IMO


The people that could have corrected many things, was ALE. They chose not to do so, they chose to let rumors run rampant, even with obvious leaks in their department, and hoards of people inserting themselves into the investigation.

Look at Julia Renfro, she claims she had information that Natalee was alive after meeting Joran, but then I don't think she reported this to the police, since searches were being conducted in the oceans and ponds were being drained.


jmo

[ortiga]

Yes, you are correct.

Jug had asked Van Der Straaten about a statement he had read where Joran said those things and Van Der Straaten denied it, not knowing Jug had read a statement from Joran.

Also, "to a T" also means "with perfect details" - not that he knew. Beth could have confirmed this (the details) to him when Jug later told her what was contained in Joran's statement -

or who knows??? Maybe BOTH Beth and Jug read this statement from Joran?

We cannot know these details.

jmo

I would assume they both read it, didn't he say that? But he didn't say with "perfect" details. He said Graphic. In normal conversation, I would never refer to embroidery, or description of embroidered flowers as "very graphic detail". That's just me, but IMO that is a very bizarre way of referring to embroidered flowers. IMO he was referring the same details that Grace was referring to when she said:

""GRACE: You know, I want to go out very quickly to David Wohl, defense attorney. David, this is a guy that swears, on one hand, that he did not have sex with Natalee Holloway, which many people would have thought to be non-consensual, but yet has chosen to give police a description of her underwear and her private parts -- the girl`s private parts, all right?"

IMO

[Luke Davis]

So the dispute is what caused the gap? Because the words there alone, to me, refute the innuendo about Jug. Additionally, I watched that interview with great interest (many of us did and extensively discussed it the next day) and nothing has been edited out of the transcript posted.

Besides, can you imagine the outrage that would have ensued on the board if the interview had been edited out/doctored in any way?? It would have been blogged-about extensively if it had.

Wonder if Luke could find it!

Where are you, Luke of Links? :hat:

jmo

It really doesn't interest me but you can order it here.

CNN (http://orders.voxant.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=3)

[HiLife]

It really doesn't interest me but you can order it here.

CNN (http://orders.voxant.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=3)

Fine, be that way! :tongue:

You have to pay??? Not that important to me either! I saw and heard the interview and know what happened.

jmo

[HiLife]

I would assume they both read it, didn't he say that? But he didn't say with "perfect" details. He said Graphic. In normal conversation, I would never refer to embroidery, or description of embroidered flowers as "very graphic detail". That's just me, but IMO that is a very bizarre way of referring to embroidered flowers. IMO he was referring the same details that Grace was referring to when she said:

""GRACE: You know, I want to go out very quickly to David Wohl, defense attorney. David, this is a guy that swears, on one hand, that he did not have sex with Natalee Holloway, which many people would have thought to be non-consensual, but yet has chosen to give police a description of her underwear and her private parts -- the girl`s private parts, all right?"

IMO

Just so we're clear - a few of the definitions are pertaining to giving a clear, detailed, express account - just like I explained to you. It doesn't have to do with any kind of sex or x-rated meaning. "Graphic" (as said by Nancy) does not just pertain to sex or sexual meaning. A "graphic account of an earthquake" as given in the below example certainly does not mean the earthquake's private parts were seen. Graphic also means "written" - as in a statement.

"To a T" (said by Jug) is also an expression meaning "perfect, expressed, accurate detail." These are common expressions.

JMO

====================


graph·ic /ˈgræfɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[graf-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective Also, graph·i·cal.

1. giving a clear and effective picture; vivid: a graphic account of an earthquake.
2. pertaining to the use of diagrams, graphs, mathematical curves, or the like; diagrammatic.
3. of, pertaining to, or expressed by writing: graphic symbols.
4. written, inscribed, or drawn.
5. depicted in a realistic or vivid manner: graphic sex and violence.
6. containing graphic descriptions: a graphic movie.

[SukiJane]

Fine, be that way! :tongue:

You have to pay??? Not that important to me either! I saw and heard the interview and know what happened.

jmo

The fact alone that someone could actually buy the dvd as proof of their accusations means there is nothing on that show as is being told on this message board! Because we all know there would be those, not on this board necessarily but on others that would pay for the proof.

Just more made up stuff coming out of Aruba to discredit the family. I'm glad it has finally been debunked.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Fine, be that way! :tongue:

You have to pay??? Not that important to me either! I saw and heard the interview and know what happened.

jmoI guess I am missing something but don't see what it has to do with anything.:shrug:

[HiLife]

The fact alone that someone could actually buy the dvd as proof of their accusations means there is nothing on that show as is being told on this message board! Because we all know there would be those, not on this board necessarily but on others that would pay for the proof.

Just more made up stuff coming out of Aruba to discredit the family. I'm glad it has finally been debunked.

jmo

I agree. Debunked. Imagine how this would endlessly be blogged about if it were true! It hasn't been.

jmo

[SukiJane]

I guess I am missing something but don't see what it has to do with anything.:shrug:

It has nothing to do with the case, but a lot to do with how rumors are started to discredit the family.

jmo

[SukiJane]

I agree. Debunked. Imagine how this would endlessly be blogged about if it were true! It hasn't been.

jmo


You're right, and hopefully we'll never have to hear again how some message board posters prepare for swimming season!!

jmo

[HiLife]

You're right, and hopefully we'll never have to hear again how some message board posters prepare for swimming season!!

jmo

Too much info for me! :chicken:

:D

[fairmaiden]

C'mon, Ortiga. Let's have a nice discussion about this. Pretty, please?

jmo

eta - Where are you, Fairmaiden? I'd like to hear your thoughts as well. (I know the Spector Trial and Maddie McCann case are hopping right now!)

LOL .... Here I am HiLife .... Funnily enough, "life" has called me today ((imagine that ??!!)).

I mentioned specifically the conversation where Jug was supposed to talk about Natalee's personal grooming habits .... not the conversation about her underwear. I hadn't heard that, but then, like Heyes so properly pointed out to me recently .... I have missed some things in this trial.

According to what ortiga posted .... what WAS Nancy Grace talking about ?? It looked like NG made that statement "Let me put it as delicately as I can" .... then nothing more was said. Except, when Beth answered "Yes". It's s fair question .... what was NG talking about ?? What did NG "put delicately"??

JMO

[ortiga]

LOL .... Here I am HiLife .... Funnily enough, "life" has called me today ((imagine that ??!!)).

I mentioned specifically the conversation where Jug was supposed to talk about Natalee's personal grooming habits .... not the conversation about her underwear. I hadn't heard that, but then, like Heyes so properly pointed out to me recently .... I have missed some things in this trial.

According to what ortiga posted .... what WAS Nancy Grace talking about ?? It looked like NG made that statement "Let me put it as delicately as I can" .... then nothing more was said. Except, when Beth answered "Yes". It's s fair question .... what was NG talking about ?? What did NG "put delicately"??

JMO

Hi FM

Besides the obvious missing line or two, I would have a very very hard time believing that NG would miss the chance to get something like that said aloud on her program. "Delicately" is not the MO of NG.

But, geez, if I really cared I would plunk down 29.00 plus shipping to see the program all over again, lol.

:seeya:

[HiLife]

LOL .... Here I am HiLife .... Funnily enough, "life" has called me today ((imagine that ??!!)).

I mentioned specifically the conversation where Jug was supposed to talk about Natalee's personal grooming habits .... not the conversation about her underwear. I hadn't heard that, but then, like Heyes so properly pointed out to me recently .... I have missed some things in this trial.

According to what ortiga posted .... what WAS Nancy Grace talking about ?? It looked like NG made that statement "Let me put it as delicately as I can" .... then nothing more was said. Except, when Beth answered "Yes". It's s fair question .... what was NG talking about ?? What did NG "put delicately"??

JMO

OK, "real life" is on the list of "approved absences." Your absence is excused :tongue:

In watching the program, Nancy came to a stop when she saw Beth's face. Beth was going to lose it. It was plain to see. As Suki mentioned, even the camerman moved the camera quickly from Beth. People can say whatever they want about Nancy Grace, but she is compassionate with true victims. (I won't say the same for people who come on her show and try to BS her - like Melinda Duckett)

The part you asked about (Chocoholic's claims) is all right there in that transcript. Or should I say NOT right there, because as you can read, there is NO MENTION of what Chocoholic posts. It was just a vicious rumor. Unless Chocoholic says otherwise, this is the only transcript where these rumors began. It is simply NOT there.

jmo

[Mishell1383]

HIIIIII I missed you guys!!!

[HiLife]

HIIIIII I missed you guys!!!

Nice to have you back, Mishell! Missed you, too! :seeya:

[Mishell1383]

Second body drowned but has been found and washed ashore. Why didn't Natalee?
Amigoe (http://www.amigoe.com/english/), Sept. 4, 2007: Missing man drowned: Rescue workers searching for the missing Gregory van der Biezenoccurred.
ORANJESTAD – The 35-year old man that was missing since Sunday after he went body boarding with his son near Boca Grandi has drowned. The body of Gregory van der Biezen was found on the beach near Grapefield yesterday morning.

After hurricane Felix passed over Aruba on Sunday, the sea was still pretty rough in the afternoon. Due to the heavy undertow, the swimmers got in trouble right from the beginning and decided to go back home. But Gregory van der Biezen didn’t manage to get back on the beach and disappeared in the water. The authorities were notified and the police and Warda nos Costa searched for the man. Also a helicopter was mobilized. But they had to quit the search, because it got too dark. The search action was resumed the next day and the police found the body of the man in the water. Gregory van der Biezen was a nurse on the medium care-department of the Horacio Oduber Hospital.

[HiLife]

Second body drowned but has been found and washed ashore. Why didn't Natalee?
Amigoe (http://www.amigoe.com/english/), Sept. 4, 2007: Missing man drowned: Rescue workers searching for the missing Gregory van der Biezenoccurred.
ORANJESTAD – The 35-year old man that was missing since Sunday after he went body boarding with his son near Boca Grandi has drowned. The body of Gregory van der Biezen was found on the beach near Grapefield yesterday morning.

After hurricane Felix passed over Aruba on Sunday, the sea was still pretty rough in the afternoon. Due to the heavy undertow, the swimmers got in trouble right from the beginning and decided to go back home. But Gregory van der Biezen didn’t manage to get back on the beach and disappeared in the water. The authorities were notified and the police and Warda nos Costa searched for the man. Also a helicopter was mobilized. But they had to quit the search, because it got too dark. The search action was resumed the next day and the police found the body of the man in the water. Gregory van der Biezen was a nurse on the medium care-department of the Horacio Oduber Hospital.

Good question. Even with a strong undertow and rough seas....his body still washed back to shore. Interesting.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Second body drowned but has been found and washed ashore. Why didn't Natalee?
Amigoe (http://www.amigoe.com/english/), Sept. 4, 2007: Missing man drowned: Rescue workers searching for the missing Gregory van der Biezenoccurred.
ORANJESTAD – The 35-year old man that was missing since Sunday after he went body boarding with his son near Boca Grandi has drowned. The body of Gregory van der Biezen was found on the beach near Grapefield yesterday morning.

After hurricane Felix passed over Aruba on Sunday, the sea was still pretty rough in the afternoon. Due to the heavy undertow, the swimmers got in trouble right from the beginning and decided to go back home. But Gregory van der Biezen didn’t manage to get back on the beach and disappeared in the water. The authorities were notified and the police and Warda nos Costa searched for the man. Also a helicopter was mobilized. But they had to quit the search, because it got too dark. The search action was resumed the next day and the police found the body of the man in the water. Gregory van der Biezen was a nurse on the medium care-department of the Horacio Oduber Hospital.

If you recall bht said that Aruba was an island surrounded by water (amazing huh?) and currents and winds don't come onshore around the island. There is always a windward and a leeward side on the island, ditto with currents. Google it.

[Mishell1383]

If you recall bht said that Aruba was an island surrounded by water (amazing huh?) and currents and winds don't come onshore around the island. There is always a windward and a leeward side on the island, ditto with currents. Google it.
I would never question your intelligence Choc, you have prove that you are wise, however, this was a hurricane with rough seas. How come he made it back and Natalee didn't? If she drowned. Which I don't think you believe your more on the runaway theory, right? I think? I'm not speaking for you at all!!! :)

[ortiga]

Second body drowned but has been found and washed ashore. Why didn't Natalee?
Amigoe (http://www.amigoe.com/english/), Sept. 4, 2007: Missing man drowned: Rescue workers searching for the missing Gregory van der Biezenoccurred.
ORANJESTAD – The 35-year old man that was missing since Sunday after he went body boarding with his son near Boca Grandi has drowned. The body of Gregory van der Biezen was found on the beach near Grapefield yesterday morning.

After hurricane Felix passed over Aruba on Sunday, the sea was still pretty rough in the afternoon. Due to the heavy undertow, the swimmers got in trouble right from the beginning and decided to go back home. But Gregory van der Biezen didn’t manage to get back on the beach and disappeared in the water. The authorities were notified and the police and Warda nos Costa searched for the man. Also a helicopter was mobilized. But they had to quit the search, because it got too dark. The search action was resumed the next day and the police found the body of the man in the water. Gregory van der Biezen was a nurse on the medium care-department of the Horacio Oduber Hospital.

found on the beach
found the body of the man in the water

which was it? the story isn't on Amigoe anymore.

[ortiga]

If you recall bht said that Aruba was an island surrounded by water (amazing huh?) and currents and winds don't come onshore around the island. There is always a windward and a leeward side on the island, ditto with currents. Google it.

A hurricane would throw all the normal currents out of whack.

The comparison doesn't make sense...someone possibly swimming out on a calm ebb tide in the middle of the night...

someone overtaken in a storm surge or surf during a hurricane...

How can we logically compare the 2 situations.

[Mishell1383]

found on the beach
found the body of the man in the water

which was it? the story isn't on Amigoe anymore.
Its under search and if you type in drowning it comes up with a couple other news stories. Its from Sept 4th, I saved in my favorites until the other thread unlocked, I didn't know this III one was here

[SukiJane]

found on the beach
found the body of the man in the water

which was it? the story isn't on Amigoe anymore.

That would be about right for news coming out of Aruba, in the water out of the water, natalee is dead, natalee is not dead, something bad happened, nothing bad happened, etc etc etc....just another day in paradise, I suppose.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

That would be about right for news coming out of Aruba, in the water out of the water, natalee is dead, natalee is not dead, something bad happened, nothing bad happened, etc etc etc....just another day in paradise, I suppose.

jmo
Don't worry, be happy.

Look at me, I'm happy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nDClh9NpZw&mode=related&search=)

[SukiJane]

Don't worry, be happy.

Look at me, I'm happy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nDClh9NpZw&mode=related&search=)

Awwwww, too cute...gotta love the husky in the fridge, oh and the little ghost doggies, Thanks!

[Chocoholic]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/04/ng.01.html
.

You know, I asked a question about, I understand that there was a statement made by Joran, where he talks about what he had done to Natalee and ]he described in very graphic detail, like, the stitching and embroidery and everything on Natalee`s underwear. And he goes, Oh, no, no, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Well, little did he know I had just read the statements where Joran describes that to the "T," you know, two days before. But of course, I didn`t tell him that. But that`s just when I started to think something`s wrong here.


So how would jug know that Joran described Nat's bloomers to a "T"? Did Natalee show off her newly acquired underoos for the family?

[HiLife]

So how would jug know that Joran described Nat's bloomers to a "T"? Did Natalee show off her newly acquired underoos for the family?

Beth could easily and most likely have told him or confirmed that that description was to a "T," when they heard or read it, and then Jug relayed this when Nancy Grace asked him. You keep looking for the most debasing or corrupt explanation, when there is none.

Hopefully, by the posting of the link, you can see your accusations were unfounded and wrong.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Beth could easily and most likely have told him or confirmed that that description was to a "T," when they heard or read it, and then Jug relayed this when Nancy Grace asked him. You keep looking for the most debasing or corrupt explanation, when there is none.

Hopefully, by the posting of the link, you can see your accusations were unfounded and wrong.

jmo

As has been proven to you before, links have gone missing, are no longer available or one had to pay to view.

I remember this one being asked for though so here you are:

She called to Natalee and asked if she wanted to walk with them (I forget now if my daughter was headed to the hotel or the bar across the street; I think the latter). Natalee cheerfully said no, she would catch up to the group right ahead and walk with them (implying she would be along in a few moments). My daughter had no idea she would not see Natalee again. This part my daughter didn't see, but was told by her friends: That Natalie passed them on the road a short while later, and that she was a passenger in a taxi with another person. She clearly did not know she was in danger; she leaned out the window and shouted something like "Aruba!!! WOOHOO!" Still having a wonderful time.



Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Alabama

http://bb.visitaruba.com/showthread.php?t=2244

[Chocoholic]

Beth could easily and most likely have told him or confirmed that that description was to a "T," when they heard or read it, and then Jug relayed this when Nancy Grace asked him. You keep looking for the most debasing or corrupt explanation, when there is none.

Hopefully, by the posting of the link, you can see your accusations were unfounded and wrong.

jmo

Nah I'm still waiting for a darned good explanation for the daily coachings of an 18 year old stepdaughter.

[HiLife]

The "links gone missing" is BOGUS. I gave you the link the sleazy accusations were derived from and you still refuse tro acknowledge or own up to the facts. As Suki mentioned earlier, a little honesty would be refreshing.

WHAT does your second quote have to do with our conversation? An account by a mother of one of the MB kids on the trip? On an ANONYMOUS message board? How do we know who that really was?? Dave said, in his book, he spoke with MB kids and that did not happen.

Did you know that I am really Christina Onassis (thus my nic!)

:rolleyes:

I won't discuss this distasteful subject with you any longer. :seeya:

jmo

[Chocoholic]

The "links gone missing" is BOGUS. I gave you the link the sleazy accusations were derived from and you still refuse tro acknowledge or own up to the facts. As Suki mentioned earlier, a little honesty would be refreshing.

WHAT does your second quote have to do with our conversation? An account by a mother of one of the MB kids on the trip? On an ANONYMOUS message board? How do we know who that really was?? Dave said , in his book, he spoke with MD kids and that did not happen.

Did you know that I am really Christina Onassis (thus my nic!)

:rolleyes:

I won't discuss this distasteful subject with you any longer. :seeya:

jmo

Links going missing is not a bogus and it's been pointed out to you by Luke Davis.

I found a link to the WooHooo Aruba from Natalee which for a long time was said by bht supporters she never stated. Better late than never.

Don't worry, you've never discussed anything with me you've only argued and made vile and disgusting remarks about ALE, Aruba, J2K and Jorans parents. No discussion possible there.

I think you might wish to do a little more research on arbeej, her daughter and her trip with Natalee.

[No Nic]

The "links gone missing" is BOGUS. I gave you the link the sleazy accusations were derived from and you still refuse tro acknowledge or own up to the facts. As Suki mentioned earlier, a little honesty would be refreshing.

WHAT does your second quote have to do with our conversation? An account by a mother of one of the MB kids on the trip? On an ANONYMOUS message board? How do we know who that really was?? Dave said, in his book, he spoke with MB kids and that did not happen.

Did you know that I am really Christina Onassis (thus my nic!)

:rolleyes:

I won't discuss this distasteful subject with you any longer. :seeya:

jmo

Is it okay to use what an "anonymous" message boarder on another message board posts as a credible/verifiable link?? If so, it also says in that link that Natalee was in a taxi, guess Choco has proven the "taxi" theory also, LMAO. Or are we picking and choosing from this "link"??

Hi Mom, it's Athina....they told me you were dead ???



imo

[Chocoholic]

"What my parents don't know won't hurt them"

And other wisdom from students who were at the same places as Natalee only 2 weeks after she disappeared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npDvPCjIiGc&mode=related&search=

[WarmNCozy]

The "links gone missing" is BOGUS. I gave you the link the sleazy accusations were derived from and you still refuse tro acknowledge or own up to the facts. As Suki mentioned earlier, a little honesty would be refreshing.

WHAT does your second quote have to do with our conversation? An account by a mother of one of the MB kids on the trip? On an ANONYMOUS message board? How do we know who that really was?? Dave said, in his book, he spoke with MB kids and that did not happen.

Did you know that I am really Christina Onassis (thus my nic!)

:rolleyes:

I won't discuss this distasteful subject with you any longer. :seeya:

jmo

Christina Onassis died in 1988. You need to find another rich and famous person who is alive!:)

[HiLife]

Is it okay to use what an "anonymous" message boarder on another message board posts as a credible/verifiable link?? If so, it also says in that link that Natalee was in a taxi, guess Choco has proven the "taxi" theory also, LMAO. Or are we picking and choosing from this "link"??

Hi Mom, it's Athina....they told me you were dead ???

imo

LOL!! Well, Athina, it's like this - I faked my death and ran away and am in hiding, enjoying my hidden stash of millions, in anonymity. :cool:

Good point about the "taxi" theory by arbeej.

Not only that, the link says her daughter HEARD from OTHERS that it happened. :rolleyes: I've read many posts by arbeej and methinks she likes the attention.

jmo

[HiLife]

Christina Onassis died in 1988. You need to find another rich and famous person who is alive!:)

See post above! :D

[Chocoholic]

LOL!! Well, Athina, it's like this - I faked my death and ran away and am in hiding, enjoying my hidden stash of millions, in anonymity. :cool:

Good point about the "taxi" theory by arbeej.

Not only that, the link says her daughter HEARD from OTHERS that it happened. :rolleyes: I've read many posts by arbeej and methinks she likes the attention.

jmo

So she's just another MB liar on the internet? Good to know. Thanks!

[Sunset]

Here's what I know. I am Dutch (living in the USA since 2004) and Aruba is under Dutch law. I know for a fact (can't prove it) that the Aruban authorities wanted to do a search of Beth's house. They didn't have a search warrant, they asked her and she said "NO". Than the Dutch authorities came to the US and asked her the same thing and again she said:"NO". Now why would she say no??? Does she have something to hide????

[Chocoholic]

Here's what I know. I am Dutch (living in the USA since 2004) and Aruba is under Dutch law. I know for a fact (can't prove it) that the Aruban authorities wanted to do a search of Beth's house. They didn't have a search warrant, they asked her and she said "NO". Than the Dutch authorities came to the US and asked her the same thing and again she said:"NO". Now why would she say no??? Does she have something to hide????

It would appear so. But then bht doesn't understand the difference between stolen unsigned "confessions" and a confession. Heck she stood by the altered skeeter tape and vowed that it would be HUGE. LOL it was HUGE alright. A HUGE lie.

[ortiga]

Here's what I know. I am Dutch (living in the USA since 2004) and Aruba is under Dutch law. I know for a fact (can't prove it) that the Aruban authorities wanted to do a search of Beth's house. They didn't have a search warrant, they asked her and she said "NO". Than the Dutch authorities came to the US and asked her the same thing and again she said:"NO". Now why would she say no??? Does she have something to hide????


Recently the chief investigator for Aruba (at the time of the disappearance of Natalee) said that his efforts to investigate the family were stymied by the FBI regional in charge...stationed in Barbados IIRC. I do certainly believe that.

We can only guess what they would have found. Someone that lied as much as Beth Twitty lied can be assumed, IMO, to be hiding something huge.

Also, Jug's sudden divorce filing, IIRC only a few days after Beth filed her most recent suit to try to get money from Aruba citizens, this time from Deepak and Satish......this sudden divorce filing spoke volumes. IMO.

Also, Jug has been excised from Beth's bio on the Nashville Speakers' Bureau website....according to the most recent version all she ever did was marry her college sweetheart. No mention of divorce, remarriage, another divorce, etc. Something left out, I'd say.

We'll probably never know what happened on the MB front and their possible connection to the missing of Natalee. The wagons were circled in every which way, and a campaign against the Aruban teens, their families, and indeed the whole island and the whole Dutch kingdom was undertaken and succeeded at least in public branding, in the US, of the teens as gangrapists, kidnappers, and having "taken the life of Natalee", without an iota of proof. Of course now the media won't touch that gangrapers murderers theme with a 10 foot pole, after being reminded of slander laws. IMO

I can only hope that at least Deepak and Satish go home with a cool $2 million each and that Phil has to give a public apology.

IMO

[HiLife]

Here's what I know. I am Dutch (living in the USA since 2004) and Aruba is under Dutch law. I know for a fact (can't prove it) that the Aruban authorities wanted to do a search of Beth's house. They didn't have a search warrant, they asked her and she said "NO". Than the Dutch authorities came to the US and asked her the same thing and again she said:"NO". Now why would she say no??? Does she have something to hide????

Well, Sunset, welcome to this board. The thing is, though, we have certain guidelines for posting (you'll find them in the Adminstrative or House Rules threads on the front section of the Boards by Freshwater). One big one is that FACTS, as you state above, MUST be backed up by a link or some kind of proof. If you have no proof, then an IMO or JMO or anything reflecting that it is solely your opinion must be placed at the end of your post.

The Aruban authorities lack credibility, IMO, and this story is merely hearsay.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

Sunset you will find that almost everything can be posted on this board as long as you have an "IMO" on it. bht apparently isn't required to have an "IMO" to slander 3 people and unequivocally that they are guilty of kidnapping, brutal gangrape and murder. This is afforded those who apparently have ties to government officials and criminals.

imo

[Riviera]

Just a reminder ---->

You Are Responsible For What You Post

You are entirely responsible and liable for all activities conducted through your sessions. It is required that when making a factual statement you provide a source for that information otherwise you must use IMO IMHO etc.. to advise others that the post is your opinion only. Exceptions are made for common knowledge like definitions, etc...
Sharon, a CL member, explains the spirit and intent of IMO very well....

"When a forum is overwhelmingly on one side IMO doesn't really matter. You can all go and say anything, the more outlandish and entertaining the better! But, when you have 2 very distinct opinions and there is serious debate involved, it is a courtesy at the least to use IMO when you are saying something that is just that. We have found that it seems to appease both sides in a heated argument, and perhaps allows more to be said without offending anyone. If anything it gives the poster more liberty to say what is on their mind. IMO "

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=8907053#post8907053

[Mishell1383]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiVKwLpsza0

LMBO!!!! I love this, it is so true and speaks volumes!!

[No Nic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiVKwLpsza0

LMBO!!!! I love this, it is so true and speaks volumes!!

It's no wonder he did not pass to become a judge (thank God).

Guess Joran did not learn how to lie from PVDS (wait......maybe he did but PVDS doesn't "remember" how to lie). ROTF

imo

[No Nic]

Interesting comment from a family member of a missing woman.

A missing person's family has a lot to do with the level of media attention their case receives.

Missing people such as Natalee Holloway, an 18-year-old from Alabama who disappeared in 2005 in Aruba, and Laci Peterson, a pregnant California woman who disappeared in 2002 whose husband was later convicted of her murder, become household names in part because they have family members willing to speak out about their disappearances, Harris said.

"It is a family member that opens their heart to the public, through the national media," she said. "That's really the key."

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/news/393791,4_1_JO20_MISSING_S1.article

imo

[Mishell1383]

Interesting comment from a family member of a missing woman.



http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/news/393791,4_1_JO20_MISSING_S1.article

imo
I agree 100% with that quote. Madeline McCann is another one whose family wouldn't stop having press conferences, etc. Keep the face familiar so no one forgets and always has a vison of what the missing person looks like.

[Chocoholic]

I must be missing something. I don't know what Madeline McCann has to do with this case at all. A 4 yr old usually doesn't make the decision to run away, call parents what I can only compare to being evil and state that they don't want to go back home. A 7 yo, maybe. An 18 yo, yup for sure, but not at age 4.

To top that off, Madeline's parents have officially been named as suspects, I don't see bht, jug or dave having been named as suspects yet.

However this is the Natalee board and no doubt Riviera would consider this Madeline's disappearance off topic.

imo.

[Mishell1383]

I must be missing something. I don't know what Madeline McCann has to do with this case at all. A 4 yr old usually doesn't make the decision to run away, call parents what I can only compare to being evil and state that they don't want to go back home. A 7 yo, maybe. An 18 yo, yup for sure, but not at age 4.

To top that off, Madeline's parents have officially been named as suspects, I don't see bht, jug or dave having been named as suspects yet.

However this is the Natalee board and no doubt Riviera would consider this Madeline's disappearance off topic.

imo.
I apologise Choc, I was reiterating the fact that when families constantly have their child in the news it helps to not forget and may help with the search. I will ask Riviera to delete my post.

[Chocoholic]

I apologise Choc, I was reiterating the fact that when families constantly have their child in the news it helps to not forget and may help with the search. I will ask Riveria to delete my post.
So far it hasn't done much to find Natalee has it? When a person decides to remain missing it's easy to do so. As I've said before, even if the FBI knew at this stage where Natalee lives and she wishes to remain hidden from her parents, the FBI has an obligation to keep her that information secret. Natalee has a constitutional right to privacy.

[HiLife]

I agree 100% with that quote. Madeline McCann is another one whose family wouldn't stop having press conferences, etc. Keep the face familiar so no one forgets and always has a vison of what the missing person looks like.

You are absolutely right in this comparison, Mishell. Why delete? The McCanns are now feeling the backlash of the double-edged sword/fine line of making yourself a public figure in order to find your loved one. There are all kinds of people out there, ready to either praise or denigrate - just like in the Holloway case. (there are MANY other similarities to these cases but I won't go into the O/T)

Precious picture of Maddie, your avatar! :)

jmo

[Chocoholic]

You are absolutely right in this comparison, Mishell. Why delete? The McCanns are now feeling the backlash of the double-edged sword/fine line of making yourself a public figure in order to find your loved one. There are all kinds of people out there, ready to either praise or denigrate - just like in the Holloway case. (there are MANY other similarities to these cases but I won't go into the O/T)

Precious picture of Maddie, your avatar! :)

jmo

You did go O/T so where are the similarities?

Age? 12 years difference
Out partying and drinking? no Madeline wasn't out partying and drinking and swapping bedrooms
Drugs? again no, Madeline didn't have drugs
OK I got one! Irresponsible parents. I'll go with that.

IMO.

[Heyes]

I'm hoping we can have a productive discussion about this issue, without any rancor, or demeaning insinuations, in order to finally put this distasteful subject to rest. If there is further proof to back up the "personal grooming" statements, I would like to see it. Nothing to date has proven this.

I saw the interview personally and this was it. Nothing taken out. You've seen Beth's interviews - she interrupts before the interviewer is finished asking questions. THis is what explains the "gap" (though I don't see the "gap")

As far as further description posted above, Beth and Jug were SURE to have discussed Joran's statements and most assuredly, BETH would know what Natalee looked like and probably told Jug what was or wasn't true.

jmo

Good find Hi Life. Now that ugly insinuation regarding Jug has been debunked and put away for good.
Good job!

[Heyes]

I apologise Choc, I was reiterating the fact that when families constantly have their child in the news it helps to not forget and may help with the search. I will ask Riviera to delete my post.

No need to delete Mishell, your spot on.This isn't O/T to me. I think that how much the parents keep their missing child in the media is important. The parents that have been through this recommend this to all the parents of missing children. The Smarts, The Walsh's, M. Klass. etc... fits right in. Beth was correct in keeping her daughters picture and name out there.

[Chocoholic]

No need to delete Mishell, your spot on.This isn't O/T to me. I think that how much the parents keep their missing child in the media is important. The parents that have been through this recommend this to all the parents of missing children. The Smarts, The Walsh's, M. Klass. etc... fits right in. Beth was correct in keeping her daughters picture and name out there.

Uh huh, but if Nat has decided, all on her own, to remain missing, there isn't anything anybody can do about it and filling the lovebowls won't help anybody but bht's facial surgeries. Oops I mean to help her with the "rested look".

imo

[Heyes]

Uh huh, but if Nat has decided, all on her own, to remain missing, there isn't anything anybody can do about it and filling the lovebowls won't help anybody but bht's facial surgeries. Oops I mean to help her with the "rested look".

imo

IIRC joran had a love bowel going as well, Now the only link I could find is from another blog however I'm sure others here remember after JT was hired they were soliciting funds as well. Has anita put her donations to good use? She doesn't look terribly "refreshed" IMO. So what was that money (if even a dime was sent lol ), paid for hmmmmmm?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/joranvandersloot/110010235/
IMO

[No Nic]

IIRC joran had a love bowel going as well, Now the only link I could find is from another blog however I'm sure others here remember after JT was hired they were soliciting funds as well. Has anita put her donations to good use? She doesn't look terribly "refreshed" IMO. So what was that money (if even a dime was sent lol ), paid for hmmmmmm?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/joranvandersloot/110010235/
IMO

Where oh where did all those "millions" donated to Joran go? Has there been a public accounting for those donated funds? Were they spent for Joran's pleasure (drinking, gambling, etc.) We have the RIGHT to know, lol.

imo

[Chocoholic]

IIRC joran had a love bowel going as well, Now the only link I could find is from another blog however I'm sure others here remember after JT was hired they were soliciting funds as well. Has anita put her donations to good use? She doesn't look terribly "refreshed" IMO. So what was that money (if even a dime was sent lol ), paid for hmmmmmm?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/joranvandersloot/110010235/
IMO

I'm pretty sure that Joran did not have a love bowel going. His physician might know though.

I know, Anita looks like a mom, not like a pal to her sons. I admire that and, personally find that all that plastic surgery just makes for a lot of plastic people.

jmo.