Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 3)

[Luke Davis]

If I may please elaborate. The Kalpoe's US lawyers had to provide the documentation that was available to them for the defendants. That doesn't mean that the US lawyers could or had to provide all documentation and evidence regarding the ongoing investigation in Aruba. The US courts thankfully still have no rights to demand evidence or documentation from an ongoing investigation from another country. Not without military invasion that is.

Heck, that would be easy wouldn't it? Aruba is so much smaller and so much closer than Iraq. Besides, from what I've read on the boards here, life is like living in a third world country on Aruba. Must really suck for those poor US tourists who continue to insist on going there.

:shrug:

I think there is an additional burden compared to the average lawsuit. Once the documents are provided, they have to be translated.

[ortiga]

#545 in Books (Amazon)

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[HiLife]

You know, it's interesting, Choco. One gets the impression that some may feel, if you DON'T choose to read this book, you can have no insight as to this case. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Now .... if one wants to "critique" the book, then admittedly one has to read it. "Discussing" what's IN it though is another matter. Anyone who is even peripherally familiar with this case can discuss it.

JMO

IF the "discussing" involves asking questions and wanting to know what is in the book, then you are wrong. The person would need to read the book.

IF the "discussing" involves criticizing behaviors that are explained in the book. The person would need to read the book.

JMO

[No Nic]

#545 in Books (Amazon)

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#5 in Books > Parenting & Families > Family Relationships
#6 in Books > Nonfiction > True Accounts > True Crime
#29 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Spirituality

[HiLife]

Wow, what interesting conversations you guys have been having, sorry I missed so much. I have alot or reading to catch up on but from what you guys are saying, this book is like a bomb going off all over aruba!
Fantastic!
I can't wait to read all of the TRUTH about what Beth went through and what really happened. This mother has my complete admiration.
On another subject, while I'm here... How can you discuss the book intelligently without reading it??????:read:
IMO

Oh, this book does not make Aruba look good at all, Heyes, and certain people like the ALE, Det. Jacobs and Jan Van der Straten look like unfeeling, incompetent clods. They set up road blocks for the family the entire time. You cannot read this book without realizing it was an effort in futility trying to overcome their agenda.

Your last question has been exactly what I've been asking! lol!

jmo

[HiLife]

#5 in Books > Parenting & Families > Family Relationships
#6 in Books > Nonfiction > True Accounts > True Crime
#29 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Spirituality

Looks like the book is popular amongst several categories. Good. It matters not if it "falls" - it is now out there for all to read, especially by those in authority on Aruba. They should be ashamed of themselves!

jmo

[No Nic]

Looks like the book is popular amongst several categories. Good. It matters not if it "falls" - it is now out there for all to read, especially by those in authority on Aruba. They should be ashamed of themselves!

jmo

And let's not forget that many will pass this book on to others, as I am, I expect my copy to be well worn before I retire it to my bookshelf.

No need for everyone to buy the book, the important thing is reading the book and fully realizing just what those in Aruba did to Natalee Holloway and her family.

DISGUSTING and YES, they should be ashamed, but I believe you have to have a conscience, a soul and a heart to feel and those involved in Aruba have none of those attributes.

imo.

[fairmaiden]

IF the "discussing" involves asking questions and wanting to know what is in the book, then you are wrong. The person would need to read the book.

IF the "discussing" involves criticizing behaviors that are explained in the book. The person would need to read the book.

JMO

Well, as far as I know, HiLife, you seem to be the only one who doesn't want to answer questions, at least any questions I may have .... saying you will only answer them with your phrase .... "READ THE BOOK". I've had one principle question regarding this book, and it HAS been answered for me, at least to my satisfaction.

JMO

[ortiga]

Looks like the book is popular amongst several categories. Good. It matters not if it "falls" - it is now out there for all to read, especially by those in authority on Aruba. They should be ashamed of themselves!

jmo

Twitty has lied throughout the case, why should anyone believe her now?

We can't believe a word she says. Let's see....is she going to mention her new conquest with Ramsey, or will she leave her private life private....she does describe the Ramsey thing in several interviews, yet tells other reporters that it is her private business. Could it be that the discussion about her love with Ramsey comes only with a price being paid?

IMO

[ortiga]

#5 in Books > Parenting & Families > Family Relationships
#6 in Books > Nonfiction > True Accounts > True Crime
#29 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Spirituality


Those numbers are meaningless.

[ortiga]

Well, as far as I know, HiLife, you seem to be the only one who doesn't want to answer questions, at least any questions I may have .... saying you will only answer them with your phrase .... "READ THE BOOK". I've had one principle question regarding this book, and it HAS been answered for me, at least to my satisfaction.

JMO

Mine too. The subtitle of the book is a lie. As is much of what she has said all along. What is she hiding.

IMO

[fairmaiden]

Twitty has lied throughout the case, why should anyone believe her now?

We can't believe a word she says. Let's see....is she going to mention her new conquest with Ramsey, or will she leave her private life private....she does describe the Ramsey thing in several interviews, yet tells other reporters that it is her private business. Could it be that the discussion about her love with Ramsey comes only with a price being paid?

IMO

I can ask you this question, ortiga .... I know you don't mind answering . If you know .... does this book come from her "journal"??

JMO

[ortiga]

And let's not forget that many will pass this book on to others, as I am, I expect my copy to be well worn before I retire it to my bookshelf.

No need for everyone to buy the book, the important thing is reading the book and fully realizing just what those in Aruba did to Natalee Holloway and her family.

DISGUSTING and YES, they should be ashamed, but I believe you have to have a conscience, a soul and a heart to feel and those involved in Aruba have none of those attributes.

imo.

Maybe we'll have an aruban book. We've had a Dutch book, that is in it's 3rd printing, according to sources. We've had the "Beth's truth" book, which is sliding so fast they had to "better together" it with OJ, who is at #42 compared to Beth's declining over 500. Remember Beth's truth all about being led into the back of the restaurant and not knowing if they were going to take her life, etc...turns out that the fish tanks are in the front of the restaurant. Liar, again. It would be fun to detail ALL the lies in her book, but not worth the trouble. She will have karma to deal with eventually.

I'd love to hear the true story from the Aruban side. How much was comped, the photos of how the search teams spent their evenings, the stories Twitty told in Aruba compared to the stories she told on TV. The way she used people and later tried to discredit them, such as "Charles".

OMG, so many many contradictions. Whats a mother to do to keep all her stories straight!!

IMO

[fairmaiden]

Mine too. The subtitle of the book is a lie. As is much of what she has said all along. What is she hiding.

IMO

THAT was/is my question, ortiga. The subtitle of this book is very misleading. Also, the link you posted, a snippet of which I brought over here, contains that review, which points out the things which concern me. Also stating, there really were very few "surprises" in the book.

JMO

[ortiga]

I can ask you this question, ortiga .... I know you don't mind answering . If you know .... does this book come from her "journal"??

JMO

I really don't know. From the excerpts I've seen, my opinion would be that it came straight from the "journalists" at scared monkeys.

[HiLife]

Well, as far as I know, HiLife, you seem to be the only one who doesn't want to answer questions, at least any questions I may have .... saying you will only answer them with your phrase .... "READ THE BOOK". I've had one principle question regarding this book, and it HAS been answered for me, at least to my satisfaction.

JMO
The only burning question you had was a few days ago....about WHY it was about the truth about a "Kidnapping" in Aruba. I explained it in different ways, in different posts (and so did someone else) and you still insisted/claimed you didn't understand. (and I see you're STILL questioning the SAME thing two posts above)

It wasn't for lack of trying on my part. When met with this kind of resistance, why answer any more questions? :shrug:

jmo

[HiLife]

THAT was/is my question, ortiga. The subtitle of this book is very misleading. Also, the link you posted, a snippet of which I brought over here, contains that review, which points out the things which concern me. Also stating, there really were very few "surprises" in the book. JMO

This is patently false. If you haven't read the book, how can you claim this ???? If you had read the book, you'd see there is LOTS of new information/details, instead of posting false statements about the book.

:read:

jmo

[No Nic]

#545 in Books (Amazon)

<snipped>


Those numbers are meaningless.

Then your numbers are meaningless also, as they are from the same location....Amazon.com. Thanks for letting us know you post was meaningless. :D

imo

[ortiga]

THAT was/is my question, ortiga. The subtitle of this book is very misleading. Also, the link you posted, a snippet of which I brought over here, contains that review, which points out the things which concern me. Also stating, there really were very few "surprises" in the book.

JMO

The big surprise for me would have been if she had finally produced the smoking gun documents she said she had in her possession. You know, like the statement from Joran supposedly saying that he had sex with Natalee at his house at 1:40 am. She stated ad nauseum that she HAD the statement in her possession. Now, we see that she tells Greta that they should have searched the VDS house because you know, that Joran said he stopped in front of the house, and because he was in the "proximity" they should have searched PVDS home and not just Jorans living quarters. Kind of a big difference between saying she had a statement in her possession that incriminated him as to having sex with Natalee in the house......results as not having the document, and no proof the document ever existed, and changing her story completely.

I remember her saying that she didn't know who all sexually assaulted Natalee in the Paulus VDS house. Where the pre-teen brother slept, along with the father. She is despicable.

She is such a liar. No honor whatsoever, IMO.

IMO

[HiLife]

Then your numbers are meaningless also, as they are from the same location....Amazon.com. Thanks for letting us know you post was meaningless. :D

imo


LOL!! Yeah, I was like, if the numbers are "meaningless," then why did she post the numbers FIRST? LOL! ;)

[fairmaiden]

Ortiga .... I brought this over from the "LOVING NATALEE" thread. Even though I don't post on that thread, it's entertaining to visit sometimes.

I didn't read it all, but I did notice ONE review ((which I thought was a pretty fair one)), which pointed out something which I've wondered about. This person actually recommends the book, unless someone things I'm "cherry-picking" unfavorable reviews.

I actually thought, when I first heard/saw the title of this book, that some TRUTH was going to be revealed about what happened to Natalee. I think the title of the book is misleading. This person, when reviewing the book, pointed out what concerns me.

************************************************** ******

~~~Where the book fails miserably is that Beth doesn't recant her repeated earlier television broadcast accusations (or provide the proof) where she promised that she had evidence of admissions to rape and murder. You will keep wondering where those documents are that she said would "shock the world." Maybe she's planning a sequel. Nor does she apologize for her role in the now-exposed (by the Dutch NFI) Dr. Phil altered recording of one of the suspects. ~~~

************************************************** ******

ETA .... Another thing this reviewer says ....

~~~In fact, there are only a few surprises, because so much of this story has already been recited on endless television shows~~~

JMO

This is patently false. If you haven't read the book, how can you claim this ???? If you had read the book, you'd see there is LOTS of new information/details, instead of posting false statements about the book.

:read:

jmo

HiLife .... I'M not claiming anything. It was a quote from someone who reviewed the book. Please don't attribute things to me I didn't post.

JMO

[No Nic]

This is patently false. If you haven't read the book, how can you claim this ???? If you had read the book, you'd see there is LOTS of new information/details, instead of posting false statements about the book.

:read:

jmo

Well, you know, HL, since Fair won't read the book for herself, it looks like she has chosen a "review" to base her opinion on. lol

By the way, do you see the desperation that Beth's book has caused. LOL Per Julia Renfro the "rat" restaurant is looking for a US lawyer to sue Beth for what she wrote in her book about them. Julia/Glenda admittedly hasn't read the book, but is totally exagerating about what was written (anyone surprised at that.....NO). LOLOLOLOL Another pathetic attempt to blame the mother, will they ever learn??

imo

[HiLife]

#5 in Books > Parenting & Families > Family Relationships
#6 in Books > Nonfiction > True Accounts > True Crime
#29 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Spirituality

Another thing n the book that surprised me were how many regular and high profile people across America called and gave their support to the Twitty/Holloways. It's quite overwhelming!

Wonder if Joran has received his copy, yet? Wonder if any of the girls he's preying on will recognize his M.O.? Wonder if he's getting them drunk and drugging them, too?

Wonder what kind of job he'll look for when he graduates? Wonder what he'll put down on his resume when looking for a job: LIAR EXTRAORDINARE, Drinks like a fish and doesn't get drunk, many years of gambling experience. Murder suspect. Kidnap Suspect.

jmo

[HiLife]

Well, you know, HL, since Fair won't read the book for herself, it looks like she has chosen a "review" to base her opinion on. lol

By the way, do you see the desperation that Beth's book has caused. LOL Per Julia Renfro the "rat" restaurant is looking for a US lawyer to sue Beth for what she wrote in her book about them. Julia/Glenda admittedly hasn't read the book, but is totally exagerating about what was written (anyone surprised at that.....NO). LOLOLOLOL Another pathetic attempt to blame the mother, will they ever learn??

imo

LOL about the non-reader review of a book.

Regarding the new suit, sleazy people always look for a way to make a fast buck off victims.

The "Rat" restaurant can thank Julia/Glenda for bringing their rat infestation problem to light. If they hadn't pulled that bizarre stunt with Beth, it would never have been exposed. All the tourists could continue merrily along, having potential iguana/rat tainted food.

JMO

[fairmaiden]

Well, you know, HL, since Fair won't read the book for herself, it looks like she has chosen a "review" to base her opinion on. lol

By the way, do you see the desperation that Beth's book has caused. LOL Per Julia Renfro the "rat" restaurant is looking for a US lawyer to sue Beth for what she wrote in her book about them. Julia/Glenda admittedly hasn't read the book, but is totally exagerating about what was written (anyone surprised at that.....NO). LOLOLOLOL Another pathetic attempt to blame the mother, will they ever learn??

imo

No Nic .... I clearly stated when I posted my OP, that it was a review from someone who RECOMMENDED the book. I said, I thought it was a fair review. I think if you're going to give a "fair review" about something you read, it's permissable to point out the things YOU feel were MISSING from the book .... things which weren't answered to your satisfaction.

Incidentally, No Nic .... I have no opinion about the book .... incase I haven't been clear, I haven't read it.

From the question people have consented to answer for me .... those who HAVE read the book .... indicated that the TRUTH about the Kidnapping in Aruba wasn't revealed in the book. I was legitimately curious about that title when I first saw it. I actually thought ((naive as I am)) that some revelation was going to be made .... we were possibly going to find out what happened to Natalee. Beth HAD that information which was going to "shock the world"!! That wasn't in the book.

JMO

JMO

[ortiga]

Then your numbers are meaningless also, as they are from the same location....Amazon.com. Thanks for letting us know you post was meaningless. :D

imo

Well you missed the point and I will briefly try to explain it to you...just because one number comes from Amazon, and another "number" comes from Amazon does not mean they are equally meaningful, it depends on their context. They are not equally meaningful just because they are "numbers".

Oh, nevermind.

[HiLife]

Hahahaha! Sounds familiar......"it depends on what the meaning of meaningless IS..." Good one, but it doesn't fly. Especially when it's from the same source.!!

:biggrin:

jmo

[ortiga]

LOL!! Yeah, I was like, if the numbers are "meaningless," then why did she post the numbers FIRST? LOL! ;)


First of all you don't know if I am a "she".

Secondly I did not post the same numbers, therefore I did not post them "first". I posted the overall position in book sales. Not the position within a category.

Actually even being at 545 is pretty good, it's the sudden drop that is startling, because the first few stats come from dealers, ie how many books they initially ordered, judging the anticipated sales. Then, after that the same thing happens...how many books are the dealers re-ordering, based on initial sales. In this case it looks pretty dismal for BRHTH.

IMO

[ortiga]

Hahahaha! Sounds familiar......"it depends on what the meaning of meaningless IS..." Good one, but it doesn't fly. Especially when it's from the same source.!!

:biggrin:

jmo

Just because a number comes from the same website does not mean that it reflects the same concept. All numbers are not the same, but it's hard to explain.

[No Nic]

No Nic .... I clearly stated when I posted my OP, that it was a review from someone who RECOMMENDED the book. I said, I thought it was a fair review. I think if you're going to give a "fair review" about something you read, it's permissable to point out the things YOU feel were MISSING from the book .... things which weren't answered to your satisfaction.

Incidentally, No Nic .... I have no opinion about the book .... incase I haven't been clear, I haven't read it.

From the question people have consented to answer for me .... those who HAVE read the book .... indicated that the TRUTH about the Kidnapping in Aruba wasn't revealed in the book. I was legitimately curious about that title when I first saw it. I actually thought ((naive as I am)) that some revelation was going to be made .... we were possibly going to find out what happened to Natalee. Beth HAD that information which was going to "shock the world"!! That wasn't in the book.

JMO

JMO

How could you possibley think "it was a fair review" when you have not read the book?? That is absurd.

imo

[HiLife]

How could you possibley think "it was a fair review" when you have not read the book?? That is absurd.

imo
Thank you!! I'd like to know, too. :confused:

[fairmaiden]

<<snip>>
LOL about the non-reader review of a book.


JMO

Hopefully, you will check out my response to No Nic. It WASN'T a statement I made, which you originally accused me of. It was also NOT a "review" of the book by THIS non-reader !!!

JMO

[HiLife]

Hopefully, you will check out my response to No Nic. It WASN'T a statement I made, which you originally accused me of. It was also NOT a "review" of the book by THIS non-reader !!!

JMO

You said it was "a fair review" - how can you know that if you haven't read the book? :confused:

[Luke Davis]

Last I heard she was living in Hoover, AL.

He lives in Charlevoix, Mich. and she lives in Atlanta, and they are seen in Atlanta at the symphony, restaurants and galleries. What attracted her to Ramsey? “The sparkle in his eyes,” Holloway tells People.

Denver Post (http://blogs.denverpost.com/husted/2007/10/08/holloway-and-ramsey-an-item/)

[HiLife]

Last I heard she was living in Hoover, AL.
Denver Post (http://blogs.denverpost.com/husted/2007/10/08/holloway-and-ramsey-an-item/)

Hi Luke - I saw you had started a Boook thread on the CTV Weekend Board about Beth's book. Have you read the book?

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Hi Luke - I saw you had started a Boook thread on the CTV Weekend Board about Beth's book. Have you read the book?

jmoNo, I haven't HiLife. I am enjoying reading the comments by you and others.

[HiLife]

No, I haven't HiLife. I am enjoying reading the comments by you and others.

Too bad, we could benefit from your point of view and your always thought-provoking questions, as you woud get a deeper understanding of Beth and her experiences, background, motives, etc. :)

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Too bad, we could benefit from your point of view and your always thought-provoking questions, as you woud get a deeper understanding of Beth and her experiences, background motives, etc. :)

jmo

I read the People Magazine article and posted it in the Off Topic thread. It is tiny print on the screen. Nice photos though.:hat:

[HiLife]

I read the People Magazine article and posted it in the Off Topic thread. It is tiny print on the screen. Nice photos though.:hat:
Oh, didn't know - I'll go read it now.

[fairmaiden]

How could you possibley think "it was a fair review" when you have not read the book?? That is absurd.

imo

Thank you!! I'd like to know, too. :confused:

You said it was "a fair review" - how can you know that if you haven't read the book? :confused:

I'm beginning to believe you both have been promised commissions for every sale you make of this book. I have never seen anything so blatantly pushed down anyone's throat as I have with this Book of TRUTH.

I shall try to explain to you, what I think a "fair review" is, of ANYTHING, since both of you really seem to be making an issue of it. In THIS particular case, it was a review by someone who has read the book, and gave their opinion as to the pros and cons. I'm suspicious of a review, again of anything, that's totally POSITIVE, or totally NEGATIVE.

I was interested in having a question answered in this particular book, which was the only reason I referenced this review to begin with. This particular reviewer pointed to the issues I was concerned with, primarily, which were NOT answered.

Beth lost her credibility with me a long time ago .... why should I buy something she has written, and is selling, with a misleading ((IMO)) subtitle on the cover ??

JMO

[Heyes]

I guess in lawsuits lawyers don't always agree. The Kalpoe brothers lawyers are saying they provided everything. Dr. Phil's lawyers are checking everything. It takes awhile to check thousands of pages. There will be a hearing in Novemeber.


Ah, Nov. Thanks Luke!

[Chocoholic]

I'm beginning to believe you both have been promised commissions for every sale you make of this book. I have never seen anything so blatantly pushed down anyone's throat as I have with this Book of TRUTH.

I shall try to explain to you, what I think a "fair review" is, of ANYTHING, since both of you really seem to be making an issue of it. In THIS particular case, it was a review by someone who has read the book, and gave their opinion as to the pros and cons. I'm suspicious of a review, again of anything, that's totally POSITIVE, or totally NEGATIVE.

I was interested in having a question answered in this particular book, which was the only reason I referenced this review to begin with. This particular reviewer pointed to the issues I was concerned with, primarily, which were NOT answered.

Beth lost her credibility with me a long time ago .... why should I buy something she has written, and is selling, with a misleading ((IMO)) subtitle on the cover ??

JMO
Amen FM!! Very well said indeed.

[Heyes]

Same way you can intelligently discuss Joran's book which was published in a different language, same way you can discuss supposed "confessions" in a different language. But then bht and her hangers-on are, from what I have come to believe, the great founders of babelfish. The Oracle has spoken.

The book is going off like a bomb on Aruba? Well that will certainly cook their goose and resolve finding Nat. Good on bht huh? :patriot:

Do you think because of this book the ale will stop looking for Natalee in aruba?
Huh, I thought they stopped looking when the little southern woman started "controlling the investigation.", wasn't that the threat?
aruba can not dig themselves out of this one. The book is out. No matter how many times someone on a message board comments about Beths looks or who she's dating will not take the sting out of the truth that Beth has described to us.
How long until anita finds someone that might listen to her BS? We have been made aware that she is itching to get her big fat mug back on tv again. Oh we can hardly wait to hear more lies about her murder suspect son.
IMO
Give it up anita.....word to the wise, you'll only embarrass yourself at this point. But I'm sure your lawyer has informed you of that.
Your son is a lying murder suspect and your husband obviously knows what happened. See what happens when you go on your little vacations? Your men look for young tourist girls. Uh how creepy. No, we will not believe a word out of your mouth.
IMO!

[Chocoholic]

Do you think because of this book the ale will stop looking for Natalee in aruba?
Huh, I thought they stopped looking when the little southern woman started "controlling the investigation.", wasn't that the threat?
aruba can not dig themselves out of this one. The book is out. No matter how many times someone on a message board comments about Beths looks or who she's dating will not take the sting out of the truth that Beth has described to us.
How long until anita finds someone that might listen to her BS? We have been made aware that she is itching to get her big fat mug back on tv again. Oh we can hardly wait to hear more lies about her murder suspect son.
IMO
Give it up anita.....word to the wise, you'll only embarrass yourself at this point. But I'm sure your lawyer has informed you of that.
Your son is a lying murder suspect and your husband obviously knows what happened. See what happens when you go on your little vacations? Your men look for young tourist girls. Uh how creepy. No, we will not believe a word out of your mouth.
IMO!

I was always taught not to bite the hand that feeds you. brhtr may want answers and cooperation she would be wise to be a little more syrupy. Who would want to help that lying mother?

Uhm do you think that Anita reads here? I doubt she cares to visit a site which shows such vile hatred as yours. She has the loving support of her husband, children, family and friends.

What's her face uh brhtr has the support of Jossy, countertossing Joe and a few other reputable characters. With that kind of support, who needs enemies LMAO.

IMO

[Heyes]

I was always taught not to bite the hand that feeds you. brhtr may want answers and cooperation she would be wise to be a little more syrupy. Who would want to help that lying mother?

Uhm do you think that Anita reads here? I doubt she cares to visit a site which shows such vile hatred as yours. She has the loving support of her husband, children, family and friends.

What's her face uh brhtr has the support of Jossy, countertossing Joe and a few other reputable characters. With that kind of support, who needs enemies LMAO.

IMO

Are you saying that the ALE is actually still trying to help Beth? LOL LOL LOL
They didn't help from day one.
You really should get more informed regarding who is supporting Natalee's family.
I would hope anita has support from her husband. I would think he would be kissing up to her big time for the rest of his life. I read early in the investigation it was rumored by those on the island that paulus was not the most faithful. From the looks of things he's up to his neck in Natalee's disappearance. so I would think since she's one of his few believers he would be nice and supportive to her. LMAO!
IMO

[Chocoholic]

Are you saying that the ALE is actually still trying to help Beth? LOL LOL LOL
They didn't help from day one.
You really should get more informed regarding who is supporting Natalee's family.
I would hope anita has support from her husband. I would think he would be kissing up to her big time for the rest of his life. I read early in the investigation it was rumored by those on the island that paulus was not the most faithful. From the looks of things he's up to his neck in Natalee's disappearance. so I would think since she's one of his few believers he would be nice and supportive to her. LMAO!
IMO
Unlike one of the SGs Paul was cleared of any suspicion in this case :D

I'm sure that there are plenty of rumors, but Paul and Anita are still married, unlike multiple marriage brhtr.

[paralegallin]

My only thoughts are this...both parties who have written books have told untruths in the last 2 years. Both books are supposedly the truth as they see it.

How can we read either book and expect them to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? I do not think we can. They are both going to write them giving them a slant in their own direction. Making the other parties look bad and make the readers feel for them, hoping to convince them they are in the right.

I do not trust a word that comes out of Joran or Beth's mouth simply because they have both proven they are liars. Why on earth would I trust something they would write?

IMO

[Heyes]

Unlike one of the SGs Paul was cleared of any suspicion in this case :D

I'm sure that there are plenty of rumors, but Paul and Anita are still married, unlike multiple marriage brhtr.


After learning about the vandersloots, I can't imagine what kind of marriage "arrangement" they have worked out. :eek:
When the cats away, the mice will play. Only this time their victim died.
(((shiver))) maybe it just doesn't bother her. :shrug:
Now that I think about it I'm almost positive it doesn't bother her if blaming Beth and Natalee are her answers in this tragic story. Then I feel sorry for her. She doesn't even see (or want to), the truth of her own husband and son. She was on vacation, she didn't witness anything that night. She's only trying to keep her dignity, Well now that the truth is out and anita is scambling to get air time on tv,it's time she face it. It's over, joran may have gotten away with this, she should just be happy with that. Trying to make him and her husband out to be pillars of society and her comments about Natalee or Beth only makes her look pathetic, sad and a little bit scary.
I must of missed something, what is brhtr?
IMO

[fairmaiden]

My only thoughts are this...both parties who have written books have told untruths in the last 2 years. Both books are supposedly the truth as they see it.

How can we read either book and expect them to tell the truth and nothing but the truth? I do not think we can. They are both going to write them giving them a slant in their own direction. Making the other parties look bad and make the readers feel for them, hoping to convince them they are in the right.

I do not trust a word that comes out of Joran or Beth's mouth simply because they have both proven they are liars. Why on earth would I trust something they would write?

IMO

Hey para .... :seeya: Always good to "see" you.

You SAID it !!!

JMO

[fairmaiden]

<<SNIP>>
After learning about the vandersloots, I can't imagine what kind of marriage "arrangement" they have worked out. :eek:
IMO

HUH ???

ETA .... Could you elaborate on this please, Heyes .... What ARE you talking about ???

JMO

[Luke Davis]

Hey para .... :seeya: Always good to "see" you.

You SAID it !!!

JMO

http://refugeesunleashed.net/images/smiles/exactly.gif

[paralegallin]

Thanks FM and Luke, have just been lurking keeping up as of late on any possible new developments on the whole situation. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents worth in about my thoughts on the books that are out there published.

I would love to see a third party write a book, that was not directly involved in the situation, who could be impartial. Bring to the table the actual true documents that were truly signed, any learnings that are factual.

Then I would read that book and decide for myself what was truth and what was not.

I have my own theory of course on what happened in Aruba that night with Natalee, as we all do, so far, the evidence I have seen presented, or lack thereof, has kept my opinon the same since the very beginning.

MOO

[HiLife]

Thanks FM and Luke, have just been lurking keeping up as of late on any possible new developments on the whole situation. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents worth in about my thoughts on the books that are out there published.

I would love to see a third party write a book, that was not directly involved in the situation, who could be impartial. Bring to the table the actual true documents that were truly signed, any learnings that are factual.

Then I would read that book and decide for myself what was truth and what was not.

I have my own theory of course on what happened in Aruba that night with Natalee, as we all do, so far, the evidence I have seen presented, or lack thereof, has kept my opinon the same since the very beginning.

MOO
I don't think that when corruption, cover-up and bungling are involved, that there is going to be a whole lot of "proof" or "signed documentation." Common sense dictates that you hear all the stories and come to a reasonable conclusion.

For instance, many of the statements, both signed and unsigned are out on the internet - there is ONE missing. JORAN's 1st statement - a statement that even his father, Paulus, in his signed statement, says Joran made and signed. Where is it? It's probably been 86'd, just like probably many other things pertaining to this case.

As Beth says, it is too late for Natalee and too late for her family. She is right in bringing awareness when dealing with countries who do not respect human life.

jmo

[fairmaiden]

I don't think that when corruption, cover-up and bungling are involved, that there is going to be a whole lot of "proof" or "signed documentation." Common sense dictates that you hear all the stories and come to a reasonable conclusion.

For instance, many of the statements, both signed and unsigned are out on the internet - there is ONE missing. JORAN's 1st statement - a statement that even his father, Paulus, in his signed statement, says Joran made and signed. Where is it? It's probably been 86'd, just like probably many other things pertaining to this case.

As Beth says, it is too late for Natalee and too late for her family. She is right in bringing awareness when dealing with countries who do not respect human life.

jmo

It's been a long time, HiLife, but .... IIRC .... Beth said she HAD proof. She said she had news which would "shock the world".

JMO

[fairmaiden]

Very much O/T .... but GO BILLS !!!!!!!!! ;)

[HiLife]

It's been a long time, HiLife, but .... IIRC .... Beth said she HAD proof. She said she had news which would "shock the world".

JMO

I'll tell you, what this woman went though in the first week alone - it would have broken many people. Then it was continual jerking around and careening from tips of sightings, secrecy at the police station, witnesses not followed up, endangering lives, etc.

There were many times when Beth and the family had to make impromptu decisions without a script. Her goal was to find Natalee. She was desperate. She said things. Some things went over well, others didn't. The whole thing about her seeing things, hearing things, being advised of things must have become one big blur. To hold her to her every word, is not justified and has nothing to do with Natalee's disappearance.

Any parent who has had a trauma with a child can relate to her every word of pain, self-flagellation, fear and desperation.

I never hear you ask why did Joran say this or why did Joran say that? Never seen you say that Joran is not credible. I've never seen you question the suspect's lies (yes, yes, yes, you've said the lies were wrong, not of any importance to you, and were done with it), yet the mother, Beth, is held to every little thing she says and does.

jmo

[No Nic]

I'll tell you, what this woman went though in the first week alone - it would have broken many people. Then it was continual jerking around and careening from tips of sightings, secrecy at the police station, witnesses not followed up, endangering lives, etc.

There were many times when Beth and the family had to make impromptu decisions without a script. Her goal was to find Natalee. She was desperate. She said things. Some things went over well, others didn't. The whole thing about her seeing things, hearing things, being advised of things must have become one big blur. To hold her to her every word, is not justified and has nothing to do with Natalee's disappearance.

Any parent who has had a trauma with a child can relate to her every word of pain, self-flagellation, fear and desperation.

I never hear you ask why did Joran say this or why did Joran say that? Never seen you say that Joran is not credible. I've never seen you question the suspect's lies (yes, yes, yes, you've said the lies were wrong, not of any importance to you, and were done with it), yet the mother, Beth, is held to every little thing she says and does.

jmo

GREAT POST !!

I highlighted a VERY important part of your post, HiLife, because I KNOW that to be a FACT!!

[Heyes]

I'll tell you, what this woman went though in the first week alone - it would have broken many people. Then it was continual jerking around and careening from tips of sightings, secrecy at the police station, witnesses not followed up, endangering lives, etc.

There were many times when Beth and the family had to make impromptu decisions without a script. Her goal was to find Natalee. She was desperate. She said things. Some things went over well, others didn't. The whole thing about her seeing things, hearing things, being advised of things must have become one big blur. To hold her to her every word, is not justified and has nothing to do with Natalee's disappearance.

Any parent who has had a trauma with a child can relate to her every word of pain, self-flagellation, fear and desperation.

I never hear you ask why did Joran say this or why did Joran say that? Never seen you say that Joran is not credible. I've never seen you question the suspect's lies (yes, yes, yes, you've said the lies were wrong, not of any importance to you, and were done with it), yet the mother, Beth, is held to every little thing she says and does.

jmo

I find it amazing that joran does recieve a pass. We have read the translated versions or should I say stomach it to be informed of his side. We discussed it on here endlessly. When it's Beth's time to give her side, joran supporters mimic joran with their hands placed firmly over their ears and go la la la la la .
So how is it possible to have a conversation when the other side only wants to talk about her looks and ignore her very own words?
Your right about the trauma and how it must seem like a blur. If you've ever lost anyone that is that close to you whether in a sudden unexpected death or even if it's expected, the days following are a blur. The shock is mindboggling when you look back and you can't remember where you went or what you said. I think most of us have been through that in some form or another. Now couple that with watching the police who we all believe will help us bungle even the smallest detail. Arrest people that were only suspects because the actual suspects pointed fingers at these men. I would bet with paulus's help. ahum.
Can you imagine? Ugh.
I have come away from this feeling overall that the aruban authorities and many of the more privileged residents do not like Americans, they like our dollars of course but the anger and the bitterness towards a American woman vs the suspect that created this nightmare shows me that Beth was up against a prejudice from the get go. Look at the message boards...I'm glad greta at least pointed out that the majority of those posts seemed to be coming from aruba. Americans needed to be informed of that so as to not think this bashing of the victims mother comes from here. Thanks greta, that was needed. Keep shining that bright light on the lies and BS coming from that sick place.
IMO

[HiLife]

GREAT POST !!
I highlighted a VERY important part of your post, HiLife, because I KNOW that to be a FACT!!

At times, throughout the book, Beth would describe her pain, and with every word I found myself saying....."yes, yes, yes, exactly, omg, exactly"....It is difficult to find the proper adjectives to describe her descriptions of what she was feeling. It was as raw and personal and honest as anyone can ever put into words. To criticize her after reading these words of hers, is just plain callous.

jmo

[HiLife]

I find it amazing that joran does recieve a pass. We have read the translated versions or should I say stomach it to be informed of his side. We discussed it on here endlessly. When it's Beth's time to give her side, joran supporters mimic joran with their hands placed firmly over their ears and go la la la la la .
So how is it possible to have a conversation when the other side only wants to talk about her looks and ignore her very own words?
Your right about the trauma and how it must seem like a blur. If you've ever lost anyone that is that close to you whether in a sudden unexpected death or even if it's expected, the days following are a blur. The shock is mindboggling when you look back and you can't remember where you went or what you said. I think most of us have been through that in some form or another. Now couple that with watching the police who we all believe will help us bungle even the smallest detail. Arrest people that were only suspects because the actual suspects pointed fingers at these men. I would bet with paulus's help. ahum.
Can you imagine? Ugh.
I have come away from this feeling overall that the aruban authorities and many of the more privileged residents do not like Americans, they like our dollars of course but the anger and the bitterness towards a American woman vs the suspect that created this nightmare shows me that Beth was up against a prejudice from the get go. Look at the message boards...I'm glad greta at least pointed out that the majority of those posts seemed to be coming from aruba. Americans needed to be informed of that so as to not think this bashing of the victims mother comes from here. Thanks greta, that was needed. Keep shining that bright light on the lies and BS coming from that sick place.
IMO

LOL - nice visual about the fingers in the ear singing LALALALA! It's so much more entertaining to criticize Beth's actions, her face, her new life. Why talk about the truth?

Greta was so spot on when she described how the media had poured money into Aruba's tourism industries, paying top dollar for hotels, food, transportation, etc. and now they bite the hands that fed them.

There was a poster here a long time ago who liked to say that when you shine the light of truth, the rats all go scurrying away.

jmo

[HiLife]

Page 185

How's this for more deception? It is sickening. As Beth later says, who can they trust??? J2K is about to be released and Beth drives by the VDS house, curious to see if anything's happening:

"I drive by there, never in a million years expecting to see who is there. It's the U.S. Vice-consul. At the Van der Sloot's house. Why is she there? "

jmo

[No Nic]

At times, throughout the book, Beth would describe her pain, and with every word I found myself saying....."yes, yes, yes, exactly, omg, exactly"....It is difficult to find the proper adjectives to describe her descriptions of what she was feeling. It was as raw and personal and honest as anyone can ever put into words. To criticize her after reading these words of hers, is just plain callous.

jmo

Callous is a pretty mild way of putting it, imo. We see the families in tragedy viciously maligned and attacked daily, not just Beth, in every case on these message boards. I often ask myself, "What makes people like this?".I cannot begin to imagine.

imo

[Luke Davis]

Page 185

How's this for more deception? It is sickening. As Beth later says, who can they trust??? J2K is about to be released and Beth drives by the VDS house, curious to see if anything's happening:

"I drive by there, never in a million years expecting to see who is there. It's the U.S. Vice-consul. At the Van der Sloot's house. Why is she there? "

jmo

It's my bedtime and I have to wonder...

Why is she there? :seeya:

[HiLife]

It's my bedtime and I have to wonder...

Why is she there? :seeya:

That really made me curious, too. The U.S vice-consul......why??? Couldn't mean anything good for the Holloway family.

Nite, Luke - you're going to bed earlier these days! :seeya:

[HiLife]

Callous is a pretty mild way of putting it, imo. We see the families in tragedy viciously maligned and attacked daily, not just Beth, in every case on these message boards. I often ask myself, "What makes people like this?".I cannot begin to imagine.

imo

Page 192

NN, did you read how they interrogated Beth and seemed to be asking her EVERYTHING that has ever been posted on RU??? It was like they were quoting those hate-filled, foul, black-hearted posts. What a bunch of babbling bunglers ALE looked like!

jmo

[fairmaiden]

I'll tell you, what this woman went though in the first week alone - it would have broken many people. Then it was continual jerking around and careening from tips of sightings, secrecy at the police station, witnesses not followed up, endangering lives, etc.

There were many times when Beth and the family had to make impromptu decisions without a script. Her goal was to find Natalee. She was desperate. She said things. Some things went over well, others didn't. The whole thing about her seeing things, hearing things, being advised of things must have become one big blur. To hold her to her every word, is not justified and has nothing to do with Natalee's disappearance.

Any parent who has had a trauma with a child can relate to her every word of pain, self-flagellation, fear and desperation.

I never hear you ask why did Joran say this or why did Joran say that? Never seen you say that Joran is not credible. I've never seen you question the suspect's lies (yes, yes, yes, you've said the lies were wrong, not of any importance to you, and were done with it), yet the mother, Beth, is held to every little thing she says and does.

jmo

I might say the same I never hear you question Beth . That's really a silly argument though, I think. I have acknowledged Joran's lies. There is no doubt he lied. When there is no proof, that I know of, after more than 2 years, that he kidnapped, raped, or murdered Natalee .... it's a little difficult for me, at least, to accuse him of these heinous crimes.

When you make accusations against three individuals, and tell everyone you HAVE proof of certain things .... when you say you have something which is going to "shock the world .... and never produce that information, your credibility is going to be questioned. When did she make that statement about having something that was going to shock the world ?? I believe it was right BEFORE that infamous Dr. Phil tape surfaced. As Beth said shortly after that .... Deepak Kalpoe had admitted on international television that they all "raped" Natalee. Well, we all know about that infamous tape. There is a law suit going on right now about it.

Yes .... I question her credibility .... but I happen to think there is reason to.

JMO

[No Nic]

Page 192

NN, did you read how they interrogated Beth and seemed to be asking her EVERYTHING that has ever been posted on RU??? It was like they were quoting those hate-filled, foul, black-hearted posts. What a bunch of babbling bunglers ALE looked like!

jmo

Yeah, I just rolled my eyes :rolleyes: . But what do you expect ?? Julia Renfro, her mother and who knows what other Arubans post their vile there. I am sure they had no problem *helping* the ALE with their efforts of non-investigation of what those boys did to Natalee.

imo

[fairmaiden]

I find it amazing that joran does recieve a pass. We have read the translated versions or should I say stomach it to be informed of his side. We discussed it on here endlessly. When it's Beth's time to give her side, joran supporters mimic joran with their hands placed firmly over their ears and go la la la la la .
So how is it possible to have a conversation when the other side only wants to talk about her looks and ignore her very own words?
Your right about the trauma and how it must seem like a blur. If you've ever lost anyone that is that close to you whether in a sudden unexpected death or even if it's expected, the days following are a blur. The shock is mindboggling when you look back and you can't remember where you went or what you said. I think most of us have been through that in some form or another. Now couple that with watching the police who we all believe will help us bungle even the smallest detail. Arrest people that were only suspects because the actual suspects pointed fingers at these men. I would bet with paulus's help. ahum.
Can you imagine? Ugh.
I have come away from this feeling overall that the aruban authorities and many of the more privileged residents do not like Americans, they like our dollars of course but the anger and the bitterness towards a American woman vs the suspect that created this nightmare shows me that Beth was up against a prejudice from the get go. Look at the message boards...I'm glad greta at least pointed out that the majority of those posts seemed to be coming from aruba. Americans needed to be informed of that so as to not think this bashing of the victims mother comes from here. Thanks greta, that was needed. Keep shining that bright light on the lies and BS coming from that sick place.
IMO

You know, Heyes .... Beth has been right up front and center since the beginning. How can you possibly say she is just NOW "giving her side" ?? I've listened to Beth for what seems like an eternity. Are you saying you didn't know "Beth's side" until now ????

The point you're trying to make about posters talking about Beth's looks, doesn't wash with me, because I see exactly the same, only different posters posting very insulting posts about Anita. It accomplishes nothing, IMO., from EITHER side.

Just My Opinion

[Chocoholic]

You know, Heyes .... Beth has been right up front and center since the beginning. How can you possibly say she is just NOW "giving her side" ?? I've listened to Beth for what seems like an eternity. Are you saying you didn't know "Beth's side" until now ????

The point you're trying to make about posters talking about Beth's looks, doesn't wash with me, because I see exactly the same, only different posters posting very insulting posts about Anita. It accomplishes nothing, IMO., from EITHER side.

Just My Opinion

The reason brhtr is only now just giving her side is because when she was asked questions she refused to answer it was all just "irrelevant". Nobody asks brhtr any questions in her book LOL.

[Luke Davis]

That really made me curious, too. The U.S vice-consul......why??? Couldn't mean anything good for the Holloway family.

Nite, Luke - you're going to bed earlier these days! :seeya:
Last night I had a dream... she was passing out prayer cards.:hat:

[ortiga]

I'll tell you, what this woman went though in the first week alone - it would have broken many people. Then it was continual jerking around and careening from tips of sightings, secrecy at the police station, witnesses not followed up, endangering lives, etc.

There were many times when Beth and the family had to make impromptu decisions without a script. Her goal was to find Natalee. She was desperate. She said things. Some things went over well, others didn't. The whole thing about her seeing things, hearing things, being advised of things must have become one big blur. To hold her to her every word, is not justified and has nothing to do with Natalee's disappearance.

Any parent who has had a trauma with a child can relate to her every word of pain, self-flagellation, fear and desperation.

I never hear you ask why did Joran say this or why did Joran say that? Never seen you say that Joran is not credible. I've never seen you question the suspect's lies (yes, yes, yes, you've said the lies were wrong, not of any importance to you, and were done with it), yet the mother, Beth, is held to every little thing she says and does.

jmo


When was Beth's life in danger? I think it says that in one of the interviews, does it say that in the book? Was she risking her life when she went to the "back" of the coal black restaurant to end up seeing an aquarium that is really in the front of the restaurant? Was she risking her life when she crawled on her knees to each cross, oh but that was just for "hour of power", now it's "she walked" to the crosses. Oh those fundraisers....a little fib here and there, no biggie, she should not be held to the truth. So, which is it, she walked or she crawled on her knees?

She SAID THINGS? lol I guess so, trying to shift the focus from her own family dynamics that probably made Natalee run away, and from the MB monied crowd....she calls the Aruban teens gangrapers and kidnappers that took her daughters life. Oh yeah, in her grief and frustration she SAID SOME THINGS.

I sure missed the SELF-flagellation, when was that? All I ever saw in 2.5 years is that she blames everyone else, especially if they live in Aruba or Holland.

To HOLD HER TO HER WORD?? Yep, she's pushin 50 and "supposedly" a speech professional.

Joran was a 17 year old when Natalee gave him the jello shot and asked him for a ride. He made up some lies and apologized for it to the whole world on TV. When will BRHTH apologize for her disgusting behavior?

IMO

[ortiga]

snipped

What's her face

That's a good question. She should wear a more opaque or subtle kind of lipstick instead of the brilliant pink furniture polish kind. It would draw less attention to their weird shape and lack of mobility. Haven't see those wax lips since I was a kid at the corner store.

IMO

[ortiga]

It's been a long time, HiLife, but .... IIRC .... Beth said she HAD proof. She said she had news which would "shock the world".

JMO

Yes she said many times that she had the proof, HAD Joran's statement in her possession, wherein he says he had sex with Natalee in his house at 1:40 am. Not that that would prove any wrong doing, but it would have been interesting to read the statement she said she HAS.

What a liar. No excuse for her lies.

IMO

[ortiga]

Yeah, I just rolled my eyes :rolleyes: . But what do you expect ?? Julia Renfro, her mother and who knows what other Arubans post their vile there. I am sure they had no problem *helping* the ALE with their efforts of non-investigation of what those boys did to Natalee.

imo

Just for the record, neither you nor anyone else knows what "those boys did to Natalee". The date with Joran was Natalee's idea. Maybe she did something to Joran?

IMO

[ortiga]

The reason brhtr is only now just giving her side is because when she was asked questions she refused to answer it was all just "irrelevant". Nobody asks brhtr any questions in her book LOL.

They sure should now. Do you think she crawled on her knees to the crosses or walked? Where did she see her daughter last? Is the fish tank really in the darkened back of the building? Did she really risk her life? Did she ever ever actually search for her daughter or did she mostly put up posters and hand out prayer cards, like when she happened to find herself in front of the VDS house (imagine that). From whom did she really first hear of Natalee's disappearance and when? What happened to all the money? Etc, ad nauseum etc.

IMO

[ortiga]

Yeah, I just rolled my eyes :rolleyes: . But what do you expect ?? Julia Renfro, her mother and who knows what other Arubans post their vile there. I am sure they had no problem *helping* the ALE with their efforts of non-investigation of what those boys did to Natalee.

imo

Post their "vile".....that would be quite impossible since "vile" is not a noun.

Lol...so now you support Beth's pathetic excuses that all her detractors are Arubans posting from Aruba?

IMO

[SukiJane]

When was Beth's life in danger? I think it says that in one of the interviews, does it say that in the book? Was she risking her life when she went to the "back" of the coal black restaurant to end up seeing an aquarium that is really in the front of the restaurant?

(snipped)

IMO

LOL...according to some customer reviews regarding their experience at the Buccaneer, yeah, i'd say she was in danger...LOL

One customer writes they weren't able to sit in the room with the big aquarium, but was put in a room with smaller ones...

Another writes, that they were seated in a booth right next to a fish that had both eyes gouged out. (nothing like eyeless fish to work up the ole appetite...lol)

One customer calls it the bucket-o-puke.

One customer talks about how dirty the place was...

Of course there were good reviews too...some, I'm pretty sure were written by the owner/cook himself...



jmo

[ortiga]

LOL...according to some customer reviews regarding their experience at the Buccaneer, yeah, i'd say she was in danger...LOL

One customer writes they weren't able to sit in the room with the big aquarium, but was put in a room with smaller ones...

Another writes, that they were seated in a booth right next to a fish that had both eyes gouged out. (nothing like eyeless fish to work up the ole appetite...lol)

One customer calls it the bucket-o-puke.

One customer talks about how dirty the place was...

Of course there were good reviews too...some, I'm pretty sure were written by the owner/cook himself...



jmo

So is the fish tank in the back as Beth said in the book, or is it in the front?

Why would she lie about such a thing. Oh, I know.

[SukiJane]

So is the fish tank in the back as Beth said in the book, or is it in the front?

Why would she lie about such a thing. Oh, I know.

From the customer review I read that was upset about being seated in the room with the smaller aquariums, I'd say there is more than one room...

[terrysdoor]

Yeah, I just rolled my eyes :rolleyes: . But what do you expect ?? Julia Renfro, her mother and who knows what other Arubans post their vile there. I am sure they had no problem *helping* the ALE with their efforts of non-investigation of what those boys did to Natalee.

imo

"catching up"

i don`t remember what caused Beth and Julia to part ways was it because of the arguement Julia and Jug had?

do you really believe that is her posting vile on the internet? IMO

[ortiga]

"catching up"

i don`t remember what caused Beth and Julia to part ways was it because of the arguement Julia and Jug had?

do you really believe that is her posting vile on the internet? IMO

Julia was allowed to go on TV, but failed to toe the family "BHT" line. She said Joran was a nice kid that the local kids looked up to, paraphrased. Then, all hell broke loose and Julia from then on was a villain, and Jug ended up pushing her while she was holding her baby a day or 2 later.

When Greta said something nice about Joran, ie she was inclined to believe him (which she has still not recanted to this day), Beth "broke her leg" her own leg, that is, and miraculously it was healed a few days later for the interview with that model Tyra Banks. The interview where a picture speaks a thousand words....FEB and friends leaning away from BHT and BHT leaning towards them. lol

IMO

[Heyes]

The reason brhtr is only now just giving her side is because when she was asked questions she refused to answer it was all just "irrelevant". Nobody asks brhtr any questions in her book LOL.

Yeah nobody asked the murder suspect joran in his book either but unlike Beth who's book seems to be filling in the gaps and answering many questions. Jorans is about blaming Natalee and continuing his lies.

What was it anita said? maybe he was covering up a little? ha ha ha
She should have taken a few more drama classes I don't think many people bought her craziness. Obviously greta and her producers at Fox feel she isn't worth their time. The public doesn't care what this lying mother has to say to try to build up her suspect sons imagine.
By the response to Beths book it looks like the public have rallied and are very interested in what her experience down there was.
It's great to get Beths story without interruption or threats from some publicity seeking lawyer.

IMO

[Heyes]

From the customer review I read that was upset about being seated in the room with the smaller aquariums, I'd say there is more than one room...

Oh shucks Suki, you just blew the fun of blaming Beth regarding fishtank placement.

[terrysdoor]

Julia was allowed to go on TV, but failed to toe the family "BHT" line. She said Joran was a nice kid that the local kids looked up to, paraphrased. Then, all hell broke loose and Julia from then on was a villain, and Jug ended up pushing her while she was holding her baby a day or 2 later.

When Greta said something nice about Joran, ie she was inclined to believe him (which she has still not recanted to this day), Beth "broke her leg" her own leg, that is, and miraculously it was healed a few days later for the interview with that model Tyra Banks. The interview where a picture speaks a thousand words....FEB and friends leaning away from BHT and BHT leaning towards them. lol

IMO

Thank you ......... now i remember there has just been so much in this case no wonder it has not been solved IMO

[ortiga]

snipped
It's great to get Beths story without interruption or threats from some publicity seeking lawyer.

IMO


Do you think that's why she omits all the crap she said on TV about murder, kidnapping, gangrape and predatorship? Because of the publicity seeking lawyers? Why doesn't her book line up with what she said at her fund raisers?

IMO

So which is "Beth's story"....one of the several she told on TV and at the fundraisers or the new versions in the book?

[Heyes]

snipped

Lol...so now you support Beth's pathetic excuses that all her detractors are Arubans posting from Aruba?

IMO
well actually it was greta from fox that has noticed the pathetic murder suspect supporters post from aruba. Makes sense.
Glad she announced it on her program. Most of us figured it out anyway. Nice for others to have their feelings confirmed.
What does aruba do for the world anyways. what's their exports. What other countries do they help? I have only heard about what they take not what they give.
imo

[ortiga]

Thank you ......... now i remember there has just been so much in this case no wonder it has not been solved IMO

You're welcome. Do you mean that you didn't learn the truth of the Aruba "kidnapping" from the book with that sub title?

People should get their money back if the title is a lie, IMO

[terrysdoor]

You're welcome. Do you mean that you didn't learn the truth of the Aruba "kidnapping" from the book with that sub title?

People should get their money back if the title is a lie, IMO

Ortiga IMO the book revealed very little to me nothing really new well i had never heard the fish tank story IMO the name of the book is misleading to say the least....... IMO it is Beth`s story told in a totally different tone from the Beth we saw on tv IMO

[Heyes]

Do you think that's why she omits all the crap she said on TV about murder, kidnapping, gangrape and predatorship? Because of the publicity seeking lawyers? Why doesn't her book line up with what she said at her fund raisers?

IMO

So which is "Beth's story"....one of the several she told on TV and at the fundraisers or the new versions in the book?

It's in stone that joran, satish and deepak are suspects in a kidnapping rape and murder case.
Anyone of us have the right to feel and express that we agree with their suspect status. Well in American we can!
You can call Beth every name in the book it doesn't change that fact.
Beth and her supporters didn't just make this up
It on the books there, go look it up. Talk to your ale.
It must be hard to understand that for some reason. :shrug:
imo

[Luke Davis]

Julia was allowed to go on TV, but failed to toe the family "BHT" line. She said Joran was a nice kid that the local kids looked up to, paraphrased. Then, all hell broke loose and Julia from then on was a villain, and Jug ended up pushing her while she was holding her baby a day or 2 later.

When Greta said something nice about Joran, ie she was inclined to believe him (which she has still not recanted to this day), Beth "broke her leg" her own leg, that is, and miraculously it was healed a few days later for the interview with that model Tyra Banks. The interview where a picture speaks a thousand words....FEB and friends leaning away from BHT and BHT leaning towards them. lol

IMO

IIRC Beth was walking from cross to cross, fell broke her leg, then crawled cross to cross.:hat: She was talking on her cell to Greta and when she got to the last cross... a miracle! Her leg was healed. :read: Was that edited out of the book?

[ArubaSteve]

The Bucaneer has two rooms. Each room has fish tanks. Booths line the walls and each Booth has a fish tank built into the wall. Large tanks are in both the front and rear dining area. It is a dark restaurant with a lot of nautical ambiance. A favorite of mine.

[ortiga]

It's in stone that joran, satish and deepak are suspects in a kidnapping rape and murder case.
Anyone of us have the right to feel and express that we agree with their suspect status. Well in American we can!
You can call Beth every name in the book it doesn't change that fact.
Beth and her supporters didn't just make this up
It on the books there, go look it up. Talk to your ale.
It must be hard to understand that for some reason. :shrug:
imo

Not exactly. It is a suspected kidnapping rape and murder case. That means, as we all know, there is no proof of a crime. None. Rumors say that it will be over in 3 weeks and they will no longer be suspects, and no suspected crimes either. So what will you say then, they used to be suspects in a suspected crime that was never proven to have occurred? After all, that's going to be the truth, no matter whether or not you like it.

It must be hard to understand, although there has been no indictments, no accusations (except from Beth), nada.

Why did she change her story so drastically for her book?

Do you think she will discuss Ramsey, or keep her private life private?

IMO

[fairmaiden]

It's in stone that joran, satish and deepak are suspects in a kidnapping rape and murder case.
Anyone of us have the right to feel and express that we agree with their suspect status. Well in American we can!
You can call Beth every name in the book it doesn't change that fact.
Beth and her supporters didn't just make this up
It on the books there, go look it up. Talk to your ale.
It must be hard to understand that for some reason. :shrug:
imo

Heyes .... if you remember, it was "in stone" that the Duke Lacrosse players were actually CHARGED with rape .... nor just suspected, but CHARGED.

You are correct, any one of us has the right to our opinions.

Do you feel, because it's in stone that they are suspects in a kidnapping, rape and murder, that no evidence is needed ??

JMO

[fairmaiden]

IIRC Beth was walking from cross to cross, fell broke her leg, then crawled cross to cross.:hat: She was talking on her cell to Greta and when she got to the last cross... a miracle! Her leg was healed. :read: Was that edited out of the book?


Now, Luke .... THAT was clever .... :seeya:

JMO

[fairmaiden]

LOL...according to some customer reviews regarding their experience at the Buccaneer, yeah, i'd say she was in danger...LOL

One customer writes they weren't able to sit in the room with the big aquarium, but was put in a room with smaller ones...

Another writes, that they were seated in a booth right next to a fish that had both eyes gouged out. (nothing like eyeless fish to work up the ole appetite...lol)

One customer calls it the bucket-o-puke.

One customer talks about how dirty the place was...

Of course there were good reviews too...some, I'm pretty sure were written by the owner/cook himself...



jmo

The Bucaneer has two rooms. Each room has fish tanks. Booths line the walls and each Booth has a fish tank built into the wall. Large tanks are in both the front and rear dining area. It is a dark restaurant with a lot of nautical ambiance. A favorite of mine.

Hey Steve .... :seeya:

It's sometimes difficult to have confirmation of certain things you see in print, or hear someone say ....

Suki posted something in the first post I quoted about what customers had to say about this particular restaurant. Can you confirm any of it ??

JMO

[terrysdoor]

The Bucaneer has two rooms. Each room has fish tanks. Booths line the walls and each Booth has a fish tank built into the wall. Large tanks are in both the front and rear dining area. It is a dark restaurant with a lot of nautical ambiance. A favorite of mine.

Hello Arubasteve......... since you visit Aruba often do the local people think that their police force is covering for Joran and his Dad? IMO

[ArubaSteve]

I can only add that it is a good restaurant with decent food. It is clean and very good service. Kids like it because of all the fish and the pirate motiff. It is very popular and like many restaurants is located in a residential neighborhood (Noord). Taxis hang out there because it is not near any bus route. Always enjoyed my evening. But what do I know... I enjoy C&C.

[Luke Davis]

The Bucaneer has two rooms. Each room has fish tanks. Booths line the walls and each Booth has a fish tank built into the wall. Large tanks are in both the front and rear dining area. It is a dark restaurant with a lot of nautical ambiance. A favorite of mine.http://www.arubaluxurycondos.com/images/buccanneer.jpg

Photos (http://www.aruba.com/aga/slideshows/buccaneer.php)

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b214/arubalog/haai.jpg

[HiLife]

From the customer review I read that was upset about being seated in the room with the smaller aquariums, I'd say there is more than one room...

Oh shucks Suki, you just blew the fun of blaming Beth regarding fishtank placement.


BWAHAHA! The Great Fish Tank Debate. Parsing and looking for ways to call Beth a liar over "fish tank placement." Figures! :rolleyes:

jmo

[HiLife]

Hey Steve .... :seeya:

It's sometimes difficult to have confirmation of certain things you see in print, or hear someone say .... Suki posted something in the first post I quoted about what customers had to say about this particular restaurant. Can you confirm any of it ??

JMO


....but you have no problem praising a review as "a fair review" when you haven't even read the book. Everything is to everyone's convenience, it seems.

jmo

[HiLife]

LOL...according to some customer reviews regarding their experience at the Buccaneer, yeah, i'd say she was in danger...LOL

One customer writes they weren't able to sit in the room with the big aquarium, but was put in a room with smaller ones...

Another writes, that they were seated in a booth right next to a fish that had both eyes gouged out. (nothing like eyeless fish to work up the ole appetite...lol)

One customer calls it the bucket-o-puke.

One customer talks about how dirty the place was...

Of course there were good reviews too...some, I'm pretty sure were written by the owner/cook himself...



jmo

Good find, Suki! I can just picture the seedy placce in my mind - right up there with Beth and her friends having to step over the raw sewage and toilet paper flowing in front of the laundry mat.

<puke>

jmo

[SukiJane]

The Bucaneer has two rooms. Each room has fish tanks. Booths line the walls and each Booth has a fish tank built into the wall. Large tanks are in both the front and rear dining area. It is a dark restaurant with a lot of nautical ambiance. A favorite of mine.

The few pictures I've seen of the place look pretty cool, kinda eerie looking with the cave style walls and aquariums, but then I kinda like dark places. I would definitely go there if it wasn't in Aruba. I'd try their food even though there are lots of bad reviews on the internet.

[SukiJane]

Good find, Suki! I can just picture the seedy placce in my mind - right up there with Beth and her friends having to step over the raw sewage and toilet paper flowing in front of the laundry mat.

<puke>

jmo

Yes, can you imagine going to a place like this at 2:00 o'clock in the morning...You're trying to buy your daughter back from crack addicts that's being held somewhere according to a 'tip'. OMG...I would definitely be scared out of my wits...

jmo

[HiLife]

The reason brhtr is only now just giving her side is because when she was asked questions she refused to answer it was all just "irrelevant". Nobody asks brhtr any questions in her book LOL.


<snipped>

When will BRHTH apologize for her disgusting behavior?

IMO

IS this the new party line now? What do these initials "BRHTH" or "BRHTR" stand for when speaking of Beth? Does this mean we use "JAPVDS" in place of Joran now? Why start this again. Didn't Freshwater express her views on this already?

jmo

[ArubaSteve]

Wow... You guys really have some imagination. IMO (did I do that right?)

[HiLife]

Yes, can you imagine going to a place like this at 2:00 o'clock in the morning...You're trying to buy your daughter back from crack addicts that's being held somewhere according to a 'tip'. OMG...I would definitely be scared out of my wits...

jmo

Given the above scenario, then Julia and her friend decide to pull a "come see my friends" stunt with the distraught out of her mind mother. Beth exposed Julia for the opportunist she is. Julia's behavior was despicable.

jmo

[SukiJane]

....but you have no problem praising a review as "a fair review" when you haven't even read the book. Everything is to everyone's convenience, it seems.

jmo

Even I will eat somewhere that has a few bad reviews, or see a movie that has bad reviews, but I would never tell someone oh, that place stinks I read the reviews...or that movie is awful because I read the reviews. I'm kinda hard headed that way...just need to check things out for myself, I guess.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Wow... You guys really have some imagination. IMO (did I do that right?)
I dub thee... OHIS.:hat:

[SukiJane]

Given the above scenario, then Julia and her friend decide to pull a "come see my friends" stunt with the distraught out of her mind mother. Beth exposed Julia for the opportunist she is. Julia's behavior was despicable.

jmo


I agree, Julia and Jacobs should be married. I think they'd make a perfect couple...The sea hag, Julia, and that fat slob that calls himself a detective, Jacobs. jmo

Beth describing giving her statement to Jacobs, was absolutely painful. I could just picture that obnoxious man hen pecking away on the typewriter translating Beth's statement from English to Dutch. Four hours....OMG.

Jacobs telling the family Natalee is probably being held in a crackhouse, and then later tells the family they shouldn't be desturbing their whorehouses or choller houses...Ugh

[HiLife]

Even I will eat somewhere that has a few bad reviews, or see a movie that has bad reviews, but I would never tell someone oh, that place stinks I read the reviews...or that movie is awful because I read the reviews. I'm kinda hard headed that way...just need to check things out for myself, I guess.

jmo

LOL - hard headed. But you've channeled that in such a good way! :tongue:

We're pretty hard headed ourselves. We're adventurous and personally, I believe it is the hole-in-the-wall places that have the best food!

jmo

[ortiga]

Good find, Suki! I can just picture the seedy placce in my mind - right up there with Beth and her friends having to step over the raw sewage and toilet paper flowing in front of the laundry mat.

<puke>

jmo

Her inlaws had been to Aruba before, she had a drink cozy from C&C in her own family cabin, (Jug took vacations with his own family and friends, so she can't blame him) she was briefed on Aruba and C&C by Jug's relatives, but still she sent her daughter there on a drinking vacation with all the booze paid for ahead of time.

Go figure. She must really have wanted Natalee to drink, enough to bypass the laws of Alabama and drink at what would have been underage at home. Like I mentioned before, seems kinda like throwing the baby into the deep end of the pool to learn to swim, a real big chance to take with a sheltered virgin, champion bible reciter.

What was Beth thinking? Does she explain in the book why she encouraged her daughter to go on a drinking vacation?

IMO

[HiLife]

<snipped>

What was Beth thinking? Does she explain in the book why she encouraged her daughter to go on a drinking vacation?

IMO

To all your posts: READ THE BOOK.

:patriot:

[HiLife]

I agree, Julia and Jacobs should be married. I think they'd make a perfect couple...The sea hag, Julia, and that fat slob that calls himself a detective, Jacobs. jmo

Beth describing giving her statement to Jacobs, was absolutely painful. I could just picture that obnoxious man hen pecking away on the typewriter translating Beth's statement from English to Dutch. Four hours....OMG.

Jacobs telling the family Natalee is probably being held in a crackhouse, and then later tells the family they shouldn't be desturbing their whorehouses or choller houses...Ugh

Your picture of him is so perfect! I can see Julia waddling in, breathless, with her latest piece of garbage she passes off as journalism. That passage in the book where he is described to run his hand over his fat belly.....protecting his government sanctioned crack and prostitute houses.

How about when the Kalpoes are there at the station while Beth is there, yet he never mentions this. Joran had been there earlier, too. Their disgusting, cold, cruel behavior is now out there for the world to read. To read how they couldn't be bothered to find a young woman with so much promise.

jmo

[ortiga]

To all your posts: READ THE BOOK.

:patriot:

lol, you'd say if she had, so I guess that means she doesn't explain why she chose a drinking vacation for her daughter.

[HiLife]

lol, you'd say if she had, so I guess that means she doesn't explain why she chose a drinking vacation for her daughter.

Stop putting words in my post.

READ THE BOOK.

:patriot:

[ortiga]

IS this the new party line now? What do these initials "BRHTH" or "BRHTR" stand for when speaking of Beth? Does this mean we use "JAPVDS" in place of Joran now? Why start this again. Didn't Freshwater express her views on this already?

jmo


Momento....you think that calling Beth BRHTH is disrespectful? She chose all those last names except Reynolds. IE in civil suits, fund raising appearances, and now as an "author" she is again "Holloway". If she wants to continually change her last name, it's not my fault. You think we should just call her Beth in case she changes it again this week? Look the other way, not notice what she is doing while she makes lemonade with her windfall of lemons?

As far as I know her names have been Elizabeth Ann 1) Reynolds 2) Holloway 3) Twitty 4) "Holloway-Twitty" 5) Holloway. I do believe the last of which was chosen for fund raising purposes. There already IS a REAL Mrs. Holloway, who, BTW, sure does seem more real.

IMO

[SukiJane]

IIRC Beth was walking from cross to cross, fell broke her leg, then crawled cross to cross.:hat: She was talking on her cell to Greta and when she got to the last cross... a miracle! Her leg was healed. :read: Was that edited out of the book?

Beth talks about visiting the Alto Vista Chapel every morning and every night...

There is an undercurrent of evil present elsewhere, but not here. Being here takes all the bad things away for a little while. I actually feel this relief beneath my feet from the moment I arrive. Taking refuge here now in the face of the devastating news from the FBI, I lie on the ground and beg, "God, please take me instead!" Death doesn't scare me. Nothing could be worse than this. I would gladly take Natalee's place.

This is one of many parts in the book that i found heartbreaking. It reminded me of my grandmother, when my father passed away suddenly, and she said...why couldn't it have been me...

jmo

[Heyes]

Momento....you think that calling Beth BRHTH is disrespectful? She chose all those last names except Reynolds. And we were treated to all these names at her choice. IE from civil suits, fund raising appearances, and now as an "author" she is again "Holloway". If she wants to continually change her last name, it's not my fault. You think we should just call her Beth in case she changes it again this week? As far as I know her names have been Elizabeth Ann 1) Reynolds 2) Holloway 3) Twitty 4) "Holloway-Twitty" 5) Holloway. I do believe the last of which was chosen for fund raising purposes. There already IS a REAL Mrs. Holloway, who, BTW, sure does seem more real.

IMO


Wow! You must keep files on this woman!
:eek: :chicken:

[ortiga]

Beth talks about visiting the Alto Vista Chapel every morning and every night...

There is an undercurrent of evil present elsewhere, but not here. Being here takes all the bad things away for a little while. I actually feel this relief beneath my feet from the moment I arrive. Taking refuge here now in the face of the devastating news from the FBI, I lie on the ground and beg, "God, please take me instead!" Death doesn't scare me. Nothing could be worse than this. I would gladly take Natalee's place.

snipped

jmo

Why did she say on hour of power that she crawled on her knees, and in the book she "walked"?

That makes me not believe the other parts either.

IMO

[HiLife]

Beth talks about visiting the Alto Vista Chapel every morning and every night...

There is an undercurrent of evil present elsewhere, but not here. Being here takes all the bad things away for a little while. I actually feel this relief beneath my feet from the moment I arrive. Taking refuge here now in the face of the devastating news from the FBI, I lie on the ground and beg, "God, please take me instead!" Death doesn't scare me. Nothing could be worse than this. I would gladly take Natalee's place.

This is one of many parts in the book that i found heartbreaking. It reminded me of my grandmother, when my father passed away suddenly, and she said...why couldn't it have been me...

jmo

Her pilgrimage to the chapel and visiting each cross was the most heartbreaking experience of the whole book, to me. Beth's love for her daughter is woven throughout this book, and it is the most evident here in this episode. I don't have all the proper adjectives to describe the deep, raw, painful, heartbreaking cries she lifts to God, wanting to know what has happened to her daughter.

Beth went through h3ll and back and now deserves the privacy necessary to heal.

jmo

[No Nic]

Her inlaws had been to Aruba before, she had a drink cozy from C&C in her own family cabin, (Jug took vacations with his own family and friends, so she can't blame him) she was briefed on Aruba and C&C by Jug's relatives, but still she sent her daughter there on a drinking vacation with all the booze paid for ahead of time.

Go figure. She must really have wanted Natalee to drink, enough to bypass the laws of Alabama and drink at what would have been underage at home. Like I mentioned before, seems kinda like throwing the baby into the deep end of the pool to learn to swim, a real big chance to take with a sheltered virgin, champion bible reciter.

What was Beth thinking? Does she explain in the book why she encouraged her daughter to go on a drinking vacation?

IMO


What happened to *how safe Aruba is*?

Beth is maligned for sending her daughter to this *safe* *crimefree* *beautiful* *happy* island, lol.

I agree Beth should not have sent/allowed Natalee to go because, IT IS NOT SAFE AND NO ONE SHOULD TRAVEL THERE??

imo

[HiLife]

LOL, now I am waiting for that poster to point out my CTV mistake.

And yes, I agree, the book does seem to have them in a tizzy, lol

imo

Beth's book, just like Joran's fiction, only shows how wrong Aruba, ALE and Joran all are and there is no defending them - so they attack us, instead.

jmo

[SukiJane]

Why did she say on hour of power that she crawled on her knees, and in the book she "walked"?

That makes me not believe the other parts either.

IMO

LOL...I purposely wrote it that way to see if you'd respond...well...and you did. So eager are you to find inconsistancies...LOL

This part of the book is after she found peace at the church and the stations of the cross.

[ortiga]

Her pilgrimage to the chapel and visiting each cross was the most heartbreaking experience of the whole book, to me. Beth's love for her daughter is woven throughout this book, and it is the most evident here in this episode. I don't have all the proper adjectives to describe the deep, raw, painful, heartbreaking cries she lifts to God, wanting to know what has happened to her daughter.

Beth went through h3ll and back and now deserves the privacy necessary to heal.

jmo


Huh? She deserves "privacy"? Did she tell that to Greta, Cuomo, BOR, etc?

[HiLife]

Momento....you think that calling Beth BRHTH is disrespectful? She chose all those last names except Reynolds. IE in civil suits, fund raising appearances, and now as an "author" she is again "Holloway". If she wants to continually change her last name, it's not my fault. You think we should just call her Beth in case she changes it again this week? Look the other way, not notice what she is doing while she makes lemonade with her windfall of lemons?

As far as I know her names have been Elizabeth Ann 1) Reynolds 2) Holloway 3) Twitty 4) "Holloway-Twitty" 5) Holloway. I do believe the last of which was chosen for fund raising purposes. There already IS a REAL Mrs. Holloway, who, BTW, sure does seem more real.

IMO

Again putting words in my post. I said nothing about "disrespectful." I just said that this has been brought to Freshwater and she said it was not to be done. IF you want to keep "initializing" Beth, then fine.

Fair is Fair and let it be known who started this. Joran will now be referred to as JAPVDS.

jmo

[HiLife]

LOL...I purposely wrote it that way to see if you'd respond...well...and you did. So eager are you to find inconsistancies...LOL

This part of the book is after she found peace at the church and the stations of the cross.

Too easy, isn't it? :biggrin:

Beth's faith is the anchor of this book. As in other situations, there is evil all around in the form of mockery, lies and ugly rumors....one cannot go around defending, trying to prove oneself against the lies.

The truth will win out, as I believe it already has with Beth and will continue - the majority of the people believe and respect her for what she has done in the name of her daughter. Anyone else or anything else, is just a distraction and testament to what kind of callous, cold-hearted people exist in the world.

jmo

[ortiga]

LOL...I purposely wrote it that way to see if you'd respond...well...and you did. So eager are you to find inconsistancies...LOL

This part of the book is after she found peace at the church and the stations of the cross.

I believed the part about your own family, (honestly) but I do not believe Beth's descriptions of her own actions, as she has told too many lies to make me suddenly fall for all the spiritual stages she went through. In a nutshell.....I don't believe one word she says. Spiritual IS as spiritual DOES. If, indeed, she was having all these spiritual insights then they would have influenced her while she was on TV, etc. It's too late. I saw who I believe the real Beth is, she was consistently this Beth for more than 2 years, and now, to sell a book she is "spiritual Beth on her JOURNEY". Kinda like buying a Barbie for all occasions. Here is screaming Beth on TV accusing teenagers of heinous crimes without proof;
here is snarling Beth when badmouthing about the people who helped her; here is lying Beth saying she was left to do her own investigation or that the family was; here is role model Beth going to public schools to say that her daughter was kidnapped and gangraped (without any proof); here is sob story Beth saying she crawled on her knees to the crosses; here is political Beth standing in her hiphuggers by the governor in approval of the boycott; here is OCT2007 Beth who says she never called for a boycott, just asked that people not go to Aruba; and now we are presented with "spiritual Beth". But somehow the "spiritual Beth" can't resist filthy stabs at the people who helped her in Aruba...can't resist that nasty little urge to try to destroy other people.

Sorry, NO SALE.

IMO

[fairmaiden]

ITA

They are so upset that few are buying the book, or buying the "change" to her "new calm", how her "journey" is uplifting, etc. Or, reconstruction as the case may be. From the excerpts I've seen she is changing her stories again, so many times now that the lies themselves are dizzying.

If she wasn't constantly trying to make money off of Natalee's disappearance I might give her the benefit of the doubt...as to not remembering all her other versions. But there is a quite telling collection of her videos on youtube, I guess she thinks people won't notice the "inconsistencies".

Do you think she will keep her private life private, do you think she deserves "privacy", or do you think she will milk her relationship with Ramsey for all it's worth.

He must be absolutely cringing. He already once denied that they were dating.

IMO

As to your last questions, ortiga .... it seems, keeping her private life private, depends on the scenario. The People article, she seems to have no problem talking about her relationship with JR ((the twinkle in his eyes, etc.)).... yet other places, radio, TV interviews, etc., she seems to want to keep it private. Beth is NOTHING, if she's not inconsistent. I think that's a well-known fact.

JMO

[SukiJane]

I believed the part about your own family, (honestly) but I do not believe Beth's descriptions of her own actions, as she has told too many lies to make me suddenly fall for all the spiritual stages she went through. In a nutshell.....I don't believe one word she says. Spiritual IS as spiritual DOES. If, indeed, she was having all these spiritual insights then they would have influenced her while she was on TV, etc. It's too late. I saw who I believe the real Beth is, she was consistently this Beth for more than 2 years, and now, to sell a book she is "spiritual Beth on her JOURNEY". Kinda like buying a Barbie for all occasions. Here is screaming Beth on TV accusing teenagers of heinous crimes without proof;
here is snarling Beth when badmouthing about the people who helped her; here is lying Beth saying she was left to do her own investigation or that the family was; here is role model Beth going to public schools to say that her daughter was kidnapped and gangraped (without any proof); here is sob story Beth saying she crawled on her knees to the crosses; here is political Beth standing in her hiphuggers by the governor in approval of the boycott; here is OCT2007 Beth who says she never called for a boycott, just asked that people not go to Aruba; and now we are presented with "spiritual Beth". But somehow the "spiritual Beth" can't resist filthy stabs at the people who helped her in Aruba...can't resist that nasty little urge to try to destroy other people.

Sorry, NO SALE.

IMO


Believe what you want...matters not to me. I think what makes the book so real is that all mothers all over the world could relate to some degree her heartache, and the love that we all have for our own children, and what state of mind that we'd be in if, God forbid, our child suddenly disappeared. Compound our worst nightmare with an inadequate corrupt police department, tips that our loved one was being held in crackhouses all across the island, and a suspect that wouldn't tell police or the family the last place my daughter was seen alive, and it just becomes an unimaginable state of hell.

jmo

[ortiga]

As to your last questions, ortiga .... it seems, keeping her private life private, depends on the scenario. The People article, she seems to have no problem talking about her relationship with JR ((the twinkle in his eyes, etc.)).... yet other places, radio, TV interviews, etc., she seems to want to keep it private. Beth is NOTHING, if she's not inconsistent. I think that's a well-known fact.

JMO

IMO she was paid by PEOPLE to reveal certain things only to them. Maybe, as another poster alluded to, maybe it was that she wasn't supposed to reveal parts of the book BEFORE the people interview. She probably just got confused again and one day she revealed details of her private life, and the next day said her private life was private, the next day that sure she was seeing Ramsey, etc. That guy that did that radio interview seemed to be quite put out when she gave him that "keep my private life private" BS, he cut her right off in favor of Paul Harvey, lol.

Sometimes I think she is certifiably mentally ill, how can she not be embarrassed by her turnabouts, lies, and inconsistencies.

IMO

[ortiga]

"Quotation marks are used in the book for the purposes of readablity, not necessarily to indicate that the words in quotes are accurate."

Can you believe THAT!!!

:rolleyes:

[Luke Davis]

Never mind that cable television news programs lost interest in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. There’s reason to think the saga will spring back to life in Palm Beach County.

Politicos and tourism experts here are saying there may be yet another chapter to be written in the story of the Alabama teenager who went missing from a seven-night vacation to Aruba in 2005.

Palm Beach (http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/palm/blog/2007/10/from_natalee_holloway_to_palm.html)

[ortiga]

Never mind that cable television news programs lost interest in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. There’s reason to think the saga will spring back to life in Palm Beach County.

Politicos and tourism experts here are saying there may be yet another chapter to be written in the story of the Alabama teenager Natalee_Holloway_yearbook_photo.jpg who went missing from a seven-night vacation to Aruba in 2005.

Palm Beach (http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/palm/blog/2007/10/from_natalee_holloway_to_palm.html)


I missed what the next chapter may be. What does his new job have to do with Natalee Holloway?

[ortiga]

The plot thickened.

http://www.cspnv.com/archivo/pdf/Okt/9/A-9-10-07.pdf

:patriot:

Does that say what I think it says, lol?

[Heyes]

Believe what you want...matters not to me. I think what makes the book so real is that all mothers all over the world could relate to some degree her heartache, and the love that we all have for our own children, and what state of mind that we'd be in if, God forbid, our child suddenly disappeared. Compound our worst nightmare with an inadequate corrupt police department, tips that our loved one was being held in crackhouses all across the island, and a suspect that wouldn't tell police or the family the last place my daughter was seen alive, and it just becomes an unimaginable state of hell.

jmo

This sums it up perfectly!

[fairmaiden]

The plot thickened.

http://www.cspnv.com/archivo/pdf/Okt/9/A-9-10-07.pdf

:patriot:

Does that say what I think it says, lol?

LOL ortiga .... What am I looking for ??

[HiLife]

Believe what you want...matters not to me. I think what makes the book so real is that all mothers all over the world could relate to some degree her heartache, and the love that we all have for our own children, and what state of mind that we'd be in if, God forbid, our child suddenly disappeared. Compound our worst nightmare with an inadequate corrupt police department, tips that our loved one was being held in crackhouses all across the island, and a suspect that wouldn't tell police or the family the last place my daughter was seen alive, and it just becomes an unimaginable state of hell.

jmo

Excellent post, Suki!! You gone right to the heart of it! :)

[Luke Davis]

The plot thickened.

http://www.cspnv.com/archivo/pdf/Okt/9/A-9-10-07.pdf

:patriot:

Does that say what I think it says, lol?I'll watch it on C-SPAN! This could really be interesting.

[cassidy]

The plot thickened.

http://www.cspnv.com/archivo/pdf/Okt/9/A-9-10-07.pdf

:patriot:

Does that say what I think it says, lol?
Hmmmmmmmmm. Interesting ( at least from the few words I could pick up). Is there a translation anywhere?

Sidenote:
My daughter is getting married this weekend and they are going to Aruba on their honeymoon. The travel agent highly recommended it. She has received no negative comments from those who have asked where she is going. I think they will have a good time even if they are the only tourists there (which I doubt) LOL.

[ortiga]

Hmmmmmmmmm. Interesting ( at least from the few words I could pick up). Is there a translation anywhere?

Sidenote:
My daughter is getting married this weekend and they are going to Aruba on their honeymoon. The travel agent highly recommended it. She has received no negative comments from those who have asked where she is going. I think they will have a good time even if they are the only tourists there (which I doubt) LOL.

Congratulations on your daughters wedding. Have her stop by that web cam!!

[ortiga]

Guess people that were looking for the truth couldn't find it in Beth's book...

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #731 in Books

Gone down about 200 over night.

:(

[ortiga]

It's going to be a 2-fer with Dave's book soon.

imo.

They tried hooking it to OJ's "star" ....."better together".....when Rita's link didn't help Beth any.

The one real "book" star right now is the Eric Clapton autobiography...ranked #5 after yesterday's release.

Lol he said he had a ghostwriter but had to fire him/her because the ghost writer was making everything sound like it was someone else's fault.

I wonder if Sunny was the ghostwriter that he fired, lol

[HiLife]

Looks like Beth's book is still going strong. Doesn't matter if it falls, everyone who matters has read this book, and those in charge, will reap the repercussions of what they did not do to help a desperate mother find her daughter.


Amazon.com Sales Rank: #748 in Books (See Bestsellers in Books)
Popular in these categories: (What's this?)

#6 in Books > Nonfiction > True Accounts > True Crime
#11 in Books > Parenting & Families > Family Relationships
#33 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Spirituality


jmo

[No Nic]

I'll watch it on C-SPAN! This could really be interesting.

Luke, did you see anything reported on C-Span about this breaking news? :D

[HiLife]

Luke, did you see anything reported on C-Span about this breaking news? :D

Just some more CYA from Aruba. Nothing "breaking news" about that! jmo

[No Nic]

Just some more CYA from Aruba. Nothing "breaking news" about that! jmo

Oh, I know. From what I can tell, from reading other boards, this is all about that petition that was going around awhile back (has about 90 signatures). Seems that Aruban newspaper got wind of it and is reporting it like some investigation is happening. Yep, get 90 signatures on a petition and you can get the FBI investigated. LOL

imo

[ortiga]

Guess people that were looking for the truth couldn't find it in Beth's book...

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #731 in Books

Gone down about 200 over night.

:(

oops.....an hour later it says Amazon.com Sales Rank: #782

Who's taking bets on rank 1000 by the end of today?

I guess the word got out!

[No Nic]

oops.....an hour later it says Amazon.com Sales Rank: #782

Who's taking bets on rank 1000 by the end of today?

I guess the word got out!

You think this is the only venue for purchasing this book?

What Sales Rank Means

As an added service for customers, authors, publishers, artists, labels, and studios, we show how items in our catalog are selling. The lower the number, the higher the sales for that particular item. The calculation is based on Amazon.com sales and is updated each hour to reflect recent and historical sales of every item sold on Amazon.com. We hope you find the Amazon.com Sales Rank interesting!

Those numbers mean nothing, for overall sales.

imo

[ortiga]

You think this is the only venue for purchasing this book?



Those numbers mean nothing, for overall sales.

imo

Because they are irrelevant?

[Luke Davis]

Hmmmmmmmmm. Interesting ( at least from the few words I could pick up). Is there a translation anywhere?

Sidenote:
My daughter is getting married this weekend and they are going to Aruba on their honeymoon. The travel agent highly recommended it. She has received no negative comments from those who have asked where she is going. I think they will have a good time even if they are the only tourists there (which I doubt) LOL.

I ran it through my Papiamento translator which leaves much to be desired. Seems there was a petition and some congress people are calling for Patrick Leahy to have an investigation into the FBI conduct in Aruba regarding the Natalee Holloway case.

[No Nic]

I ran it through my Papiamento translator which leaves much to be desired. Seems there was a petition and some congress people are calling for Patrick Leahy to have an investigation into the FBI conduct in Aruba regarding the Natalee Holloway case.

Is this what you saw on C-Span, Luke ?

[Luke Davis]

Luke, did you see anything reported on C-Span about this breaking news? :DNo. But if there are hearings I hope they show it/them.

[ArubaSteve]

I did not buy the book, but from what I read about the book it is a very deceiving book. If I wanted a book on the "Five Easy Steps to Scuba Diving", I sure wouldn't want to read about the life of Jacques Cousteau. If BHT wrote a book on the "Truth About the Kidnapping", should she not be telling her readers what the truth is and backing it up with facts?

[HiLife]

I ran it through my Papiamento translator which leaves much to be desired. Seems there was a petition and some congress people are calling for Patrick Leahy to have an investigation into the FBI conduct in Aruba regarding the Natalee Holloway case.

There are translations of it on other boards, but you've got the basic premise. It has also been said on other boards (even boards that support Joran) that it is nothing but some more smoke coming out of Aruba....and funny....notice how it is coinciding with Beth's book. :read:

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Is this what you saw on C-Span, Luke ?No but they are the only one who would show it.

[HiLife]

<snipped>

At least the Mc Canns are people with whom one can sympathize, and have divulged how the money is being spent.

<snipped>


Since you've brought the McCanns here.......The McCanns have NOT divulged anything about where their fund is going. They have not divulged. They have a slick PR man and high powered legal team (Pinochet's extradition lawyer, for one), online store and have done several european tours. Wonder what people would say if the Holloways surrounded themselves with such a defense team (and others paying for it). Jug had to go back to work after 3 months. Both McCanns are doctors and neither one is working, at least part time, living off the fund - been 6 months now.

Notice how Beth is being used as the example of how to grieve and react and accomplish to many posters (as opposed to the McCanns) on the McCann CTV board.

I won't further explain because this isn't the McCann board, but there is one in CL.

jmo

[fairmaiden]

I did not buy the book, but from what I read about the book it is a very deceiving book. If I wanted a book on the "Five Easy Steps to Scuba Diving", I sure wouldn't want to read about the life of Jacques Cousteau. If BHT wrote a book on the "Truth About the Kidnapping", should she not be telling her readers what the truth is and backing it up with facts?

Steve .... You are exactly right !!! This is a great post. To mislead people with the title of her book .... is just wrong !!

JMO

[ArubaSteve]

I don't see why people cannot tell that this book is not about the "truth" but simply about a business venture and money. IMO

[Luke Davis]

I notice the "For Natalee" thread has been closed. Are we not supposed to talk about the book?:shrug:

Beth Holloway Tour (http://www.harpercollins.com/Author/Tour.aspx?authorID=33337)

[fairmaiden]

I don't see why people cannot tell that this book is not about the "truth" but simply about a business venture and money. IMO

I believe you're correct, Steve. You can't say it much plainer than you did. If the "truth" was being revealed here, it would be accompanied by FACTS. The "TRUTH about the Kidnapping", I mean ....

As another poster told me recently .... "Beth is successful". I asked what was meant by that, but I didn't see any response. Like you, I believe she is trying to be a success in her "business venture".

JMO

[Luke Davis]

There are translations of it on other boards, but you've got the basic premise. It has also been said on other boards (even boards that support Joran) that it is nothing but some more smoke coming out of Aruba....and funny....notice how it is coinciding with Beth's book. :read:

jmoI see the Kalpoe videos are getting some attention also. I guess those lawyers will be going for their 15 minutes of fame soon.

[No Nic]

I don't see why people cannot tell that this book is not about the "truth" but simply about a business venture and money. IMO

Do you think Aruba is about the "truth" or is it simply about a "business venture and money (tourism)?

[ArubaSteve]

Tourism is what they do. It used to be gold mining. It used to be oil refining. Today it's tourism. What is Puerto Rico about? Anguilla or hundreds of other places? Is there something wrong with that? Is tourism a bad word?

[HiLife]

Tourism is what they do. It used to be gold mining. It used to be oil refining. Today it's tourism. What is Puerto Rico about? Anguilla or hundreds of other places? Is there something wrong with that? Is tourism a bad word?

Exactly so. I agree. In relation to this case, if this (tourism) is Aruba's main source of income, doesn't it stand to reason they would do everything in their power to protect it?

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Exactly so. I agree. In relation to this case, if this (tourism) is Aruba's main source of income, doesn't it stand to reason they would do everything in their power to protect it?

jmoReminds me of the mayor in JAWS. News of a shark might keep the tourists away.

http://bestsmileys.com/anxious/3.gif

[terrysdoor]

Exactly so. I agree. In relation to this case, if this (tourism) is Aruba's main source of income, doesn't it stand to reason they would do everything in their power to protect it?

jmo

Hello All.......... to me it would seem Aruba would want the case solved not hide it IMO that is why i don`t understand that people would think Joran and his family are so important IMO

[Heyes]

Reminds me of the mayor in JAWS. News of a shark might keep the tourists away.

http://bestsmileys.com/anxious/3.gif

LOL
Now everytime I see joran I'm going to have the theme music from JAWS running through my head!
Actually, it's perfect.
:seeya:

[No Nic]

Tourism is what they do. It used to be gold mining. It used to be oil refining. Today it's tourism. What is Puerto Rico about? Anguilla or hundreds of other places? Is there something wrong with that? Is tourism a bad word?

Didn't say it was a bad word. Was just asking if you thought Aruba is about the "truth" (at least in this case/investigation) or are they protecting "what they do"?

[HiLife]

Hello All.......... to me it would seem Aruba would want the case solved not hide it IMO that is why i don`t understand that people would think Joran and his family are so important IMO

No one here is saying Joran's family is important enough to be covered for. No one is saying they are covering for Paulus, but covering to protect the Aruba tourism all-mighty dollar. Paulus just happened to become a part of the overall big picture.

Paulus was very well connected, that is a given, given his profession and the relatively small l population of the island. It was established he was good friends with Jan Van der Straten, etc. This cannot be denied. ALE were not granted a search warrant for Paulus, whose son was the last seen with Natalee, when days later, they'd obtained it for the innocent SGs. How about the High ranking friend who greeted the ALE at the door and kept them from executing certain parts of their search warrant that was finally obtained sometime later? Examples like this and more.

Yes, you would think people would learn by now that "drip drip disclosure" is not the best way to solve a problem.

It reminds me of Watergate and Nixon (where this term originated from) and then what do you know - there was Bill Clinton with the Monica Lewinsky debacle, doing the same "drip drip disclosure" instead of coming right out with the truth. At the time, IIRC, many commentators were discussing about Clinton not learning the "drip drip disclosure" example from Nixon.

So here is Aruba looking like they are doing the same thing, not learning from others' past mistakes (who ever really does?). Hide and deflect. It is not looking good on them.

jmo

[ortiga]

I did not buy the book, but from what I read about the book it is a very deceiving book. If I wanted a book on the "Five Easy Steps to Scuba Diving", I sure wouldn't want to read about the life of Jacques Cousteau. If BHT wrote a book on the "Truth About the Kidnapping", should she not be telling her readers what the truth is and backing it up with facts?

Other sites are posting large sections of her book, and so far the only reference to "kidnapping" that I have seen is on the cover of the book. I guess that was so that it would show up in the "crime" category, as well as "inspiration". Inspiration sells, but crime and inspiration, hope, faith together? wow!

Of course we all know there was no crime ever proven to have occurred!

IMO

[ortiga]

No one here is saying Joran's family is important enough to be covered for. No one is saying they are covering for Paulus, but covering to protect the Aruba tourism all-mighty dollar. Paulus just happened to become a part of the overall big picture.

Paulus was very well connected, that is a given, given his profession and the relatively small l population of the island. It was established he was good friends with Jan Van der Straten, etc. This cannot be denied.

Yes, you would think people would learn by now that "drip drip disclosure" is not the best way to solve a problem.

It reminds me of Watergate and Nixon (where this term originated from) and then what do you know - there was Bill Clinton with the Monica Lewinsky debacle, doing the same "drip drip disclosure" instead of coming right out with the truth. At the time, IIRC, many commentators were discussing about Clinton not learning the "drip drip disclosure" example from Nixon.

So here is Aruba looking like they are doing the same thing, not learning from others' past mistakes (who ever really does?). Hide and deflect. It is not looking good on them.

jmo

What, exactly, is the TRUTH that Aruba is hiding and deflecting attention from?

[ArubaSteve]

Do you guys really think that Aruba is going through this hell just to protect the Van de Sloots? Why would they not want to be the big hero and send them all to jail for kidnap, rape, and murder. I say we arrest them all, send them to prison for life and if we never find hard evidence too bad on them. Does that make any sense?

[HiLife]

Reminds me of the mayor in JAWS. News of a shark might keep the tourists away.

http://bestsmileys.com/anxious/3.gif

I agree with you and Heyes. It is the perfect description! But of course, as with all cover ups, it comes back to bite everyone in the tushy! :D

(in the case of JAWS, it was literally! lol!)

jmo

[HiLife]

Do you guys really think that Aruba is going through this hell just to protect the Van de Sloots? Why would they not want to be the big hero and send them all to jail for kidnap, rape, and murder. I say we arrest them all, send them to prison for life and if we never find hard evidence too bad on them. Does that make any sense?

See my post above. Not about the VDS. But about protecting Aruba's Tourism industry.....and the VDS were caught up in it - luckily for them.

jmo

[ArubaSteve]

Then throw them all to the wolves and save Aruba.

[HiLife]

Then throw them all to the wolves and save Aruba.

Exactly. But they decided to protect everyone and everything and went with the "drip-drip disclosure" method. Never does anyone any good.

jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

Then throw them all to the wolves and save Aruba.

I doubt the power-elite is willing to expose their corrupt members, JMO. It wouldn't have been politically expedient ( and there was an impending election) and an actual investigation of the investigation could have exposed much more truth to prospective tourists and potential investors about how corrupt Aruba actually is, IMO.

[ArubaSteve]

Protect everyone.....from a 17 year old nobody all the way up to Dutch officials and those in Holland. All because of a missing person.

[ArubaSteve]

Do we also include the pilots of the jet aircraft searching the waters? Are they in on this huge conspiracy?

[ArubaSteve]

I was searching with others too. Am I in on the conspiracy?

[HiLife]

I doubt the power-elite is willing to expose their corrupt members, JMO. It wouldn't have been politically expedient ( and there was an impending election) and an actual investigation of the investigation could have exposed much more truth to prospective tourists and potential investors about how corrupt Aruba actually is, IMO.

You're a sight for sore eyes, JMO! Nice to see you and well said, as usual! :seeya:

jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

Do we also include the pilots of the jet aircraft searching the waters? Are they in on this huge conspiracy?

I doubt it was a "huge conspiracy" or that pilots of jet aircraft did anything other than perform the job they were asked to do.

[ArubaSteve]

My opinion..... Police in Aruba are not as savvy as New York Police when it comes to murder, or kidnappings. Mistakes may have been made at the onset. Not anything that would completely derail this investigation but errors. No coverup. BHT ran the show. Aruba tried to comply with her requests. Big mistake. They also need to learn the phrase "no comment". IMO.

[fairmaiden]

Do you guys really think that Aruba is going through this hell just to protect the Van de Sloots? Why would they not want to be the big hero and send them all to jail for kidnap, rape, and murder. I say we arrest them all, send them to prison for life and if we never find hard evidence too bad on them. Does that make any sense?

It makes no sense, Steve. I've been asked by posters if I need a "video" of Joran et al kidnapping, raping, and murdering Natalee ((which I think is bad taste in itself))

I keep asking for someone to point out some proof of heinous crimes to me. I'm told ALE "covered it up", and many other excuses for why there appears to be no evidence.

JMO

[Luke Davis]

Other sites are posting large sections of her book, and so far the only reference to "kidnapping" that I have seen is on the cover of the book. I guess that was so that it would show up in the "crime" category, as well as "inspiration". Inspiration sells, but crime and inspiration, hope, faith together? wow!

Of course we all know there was no crime ever proven to have occurred!

IMO

With the North Korea/Aruba money laundering connection, it could be a top selling book in the finanatial category!:hat:

[Luke Davis]

I agree with you and Heyes. It is the perfect description! But of course, as with all cover ups, it comes back to bite everyone in the tushy! :D

(in the case of JAWS, it was literally! lol!)

jmo
This brings to mind a wild fantasy! What if Natalee overdosed on crack and alcohol? Joran calls ALE and reports an emergency. By time they arrive Natalee is dead. Calls are made to higher-ups who decide a tourist dying of crack isn't good.

Paulus is contacted and told to keep the boys in line. No body, no case. ALE takes the body way out and dumps it.

There is some confusion because some top officials didn't realize the body was dumped and announce Natalee is dead and they have the body. OOPS! No we don't.:shrug:

[ArubaSteve]

Question... In Beth's book, does she mention anything in regard to the FBI and what they may believe happened. With all the leaks that have occurred in two and a half years has anything come out of the FBI?

[JustMyOpinion]

My opinion..... Police in Aruba are not as savvy as New York Police when it comes to murder, or kidnappings. Mistakes may have been made at the onset. Not anything that would completely derail this investigation but errors. No coverup. BHT ran the show. Aruba tried to comply with her requests. Big mistake. They also need to learn the phrase "no comment". IMO.

Beth did not run the show, she had no power in Aruba and didn't even speak the official or native language. People like van der Straaten, DeWitt, King, van der Sloot, Croes, & Janssen ran it, IMO.

[JustMyOpinion]

Question... In Beth's book, does she mention anything in regard to the FBI and what they may believe happened. ?

Bill O'Reilly claims he has FBI sources, and he recently stated the FBI believes she died from an overdose and her body was disposed of at sea. ( but of course, Bill isn't naming his source for this information).

[Riviera]

Locking this and starting part 4.

Thank you
R