Can you say NO?

[TuscanDreams]

Please put yourself in this situation- based upon one of my cases:

You are a 14 year old African American male. You have 4 (different dads for each kid) younger siblings who you make sure get to school every morning and are tucked into bed at night. Your mom is rarely home, she's a prostitute and is addicted to crack cocaine. She's been in rehab numerous times and she can't kick the crack habit. You go through the trash cans at restaraunts to find food for your brothers and sisters. You have to work 20 hours a week at a fast food place so you can clothe them. You have to work really hard to make yourself get to school as well, because if you or your siblings miss school, Child Protective Services are notified and your family could fall apart. You sure wish you knew where your Dad is, but you haven't seem him in more than 11 months. Same with the other kids dads.

You are approached by a 17 year old African American male. He claims that if you sell his stuff for him, you won't have to work at the fast food joint and his friends will take care of you and your siblings. They will make sure you are all safe. The 'stuff' you sell is illegal, that's just because of the stupid government trying to get up in your business. Your new friend wants to take care of you and your siblings, he has a bunch of friends. They are called the 51st gang and that's nothing- it's just like a club.Sure, they carry guns, but they only use them if someone tries to kill their friends. Don't listen to the media, they are just trying to sell news and keep black people down. It's a safe group of people to hang out with, they'll love you like family. The new friend pulls out a wad of cash and hands it to you. "Here, you need a fresh start, let us help you. We care, screw those CPS people, forget the police. We have each other and that's all we need. Take the money, you deserve it."

Could you say no?

[WarmNCozy]

would they let it go at that and not bother him again?

[Charon]

What a terrible thing to ask.

I can not begin to describe just how much I hate drugs and those beasts who peddle them. IMO is drug dealers nothing more than spineless killers.

This scenario, however, puts a completely different spin on things. To be perfectly honest, and this really kills me to admit it, I would not be able to say no. Going through what this chap is going through, no, I would not say no if it could save the family I love and care for.

Sorry to disappoint or offend anyone.

[WarmNCozy]

What a terrible thing to ask.

I can not begin to describe just how much I hate drugs and those beasts who peddle them. IMO is drug dealers nothing more than spineless killers.

This scenario, however, puts a completely different spin on things. To be perfectly honest, and this really kills me to admit it, I would not be able to say no. Going through what this chap is going through, no, I would not say no if it could save the family I love and care for.

Sorry to disappoint or offend anyone.

CPS is on this case. What can they do to help this family?:confused:

[TuscanDreams]

CPS is on this case. What can they do to help this family?:confused:

As I worked for years and years in CPS, I can tell you that this is the type of case that is typically seen where I worked. The mom is addicted to drugs, hasn't been able to kick the habit and supports it with prostitution. Dad isn't in the picture. CPS can't really do anything but put these kids in a foster home and hope to find the mom, clean her up and put her kids with her again. It's called reunification and it's always the first goal before termination of parental rights. And remember, once these kids are removed, they probably won't be placed together. Rarely does a foster family have enough space to take on an additional 4 or 5 kids. So, the 14 year old in this case knows what is going on, he doesn't want the only family he knows to be broken apart.

Could you say no to this opportunity? I have to admit, I'd say yes. I'd have been sucked into gangs, drugs and violence if I were that in the 14 year old's position.

Gangs are seductive.

[Charon]

#1: FEED THEM.

This is gonna be the core of your problem. You exercise choices each day. You can decide if your gonna look presentable today or not, urinate in public or not, speak decently to people or not. But you have no choice when it comes to hunger. You ARE hungry or you're not.

This has now driven them to dumpster diving for food scraps and it has then driven, I assume, this kid into the welcoming arms of drug pushers. Hunger triggers a primitive switch called "Self Preservation" and will drive anyone to ANYTHING. You take care of their bellies and you've won 70% of that battle. In the very same process you have also stopped them from loosing what self dignity they have left. No one scrounging through waste in order to find food will have much of a self esteem left, and what better person to seduce with ANYTHING than a person who does not have dignity.

Good luck and thank you for your concern. Not only will you save that family but also those who might have bought drugs from that kid.

[TuscanDreams]

Charon, thank you for your comments! :seeya:

That was an actual case that happened about 5 years ago. In actuallity, the 14 year old joined a gang and sold drugs. He was arrested on trafficking drugs, second degree, when he was 15. His siblings have all gone into foster care and the last I'd heard was that they were looking for a permanent home for them.

While I think feeding them is a great idea- other issues have to be addressed as well. They had no adult supervision, the oldest kid was paying the electric bills and they had no phone. When the 14 (turned 15)year old African American Male- "DJ" was arrested, he had to tell the police that his little brothers and sisters were home, alone. That's when CPS stepped in.

[One2Snoop]

Charon, thank you for your comments! :seeya:

That was an actual case that happened about 5 years ago. In actuallity, the 14 year old joined a gang and sold drugs. He was arrested on trafficking drugs, second degree, when he was 15. His siblings have all gone into foster care and the last I'd heard was that they were looking for a permanent home for them.

While I think feeding them is a great idea- other issues have to be addressed as well. They had no adult supervision, the oldest kid was paying the electric bills and they had no phone. When the 14 (turned 15)year old African American Male- "DJ" was arrested, he had to tell the police that his little brothers and sisters were home, alone. That's when CPS stepped in.

Could you say NO?

I can't answer your question - I just don't know.
I'm sure you must encounter this alot. It's a terrible shame. If only there were measures that could be taken for kids in situations like this, but if they keep it hidden then I guess there's nothing anyone can do. Fortunately for him he got caught early. Hopefully when he's released he won't go back to the gang.
Has this kid been released from jail yet?

Your story brought back a memory for me. Back in the early 70's we lived in the 5700 block of Tracy. As houses went on the market, the city bought them and sold them to low-income families. An african american woman and her 5 kids moved in next door. Nice family. We never had an inkling any illegal activity was going on at this house until about 6 months after they moved in.
All of sudden a big huge cage went up around the entire house, wrought iron fencing as high as the roof of the house. How bizarre we thought. Turns out the lady was dealing drugs and prostituting to support her family. We moved shortly thereafter so I don't know what happened to them. This woman was certainly old enough to know better. Sad what people will do for money and they think its in the best interest of their family.

[WarmNCozy]

As I worked for years and years in CPS, I can tell you that this is the type of case that is typically seen where I worked. The mom is addicted to drugs, hasn't been able to kick the habit and supports it with prostitution. Dad isn't in the picture. CPS can't really do anything but put these kids in a foster home and hope to find the mom, clean her up and put her kids with her again. It's called reunification and it's always the first goal before termination of parental rights. And remember, once these kids are removed, they probably won't be placed together. Rarely does a foster family have enough space to take on an additional 4 or 5 kids. So, the 14 year old in this case knows what is going on, he doesn't want the only family he knows to be broken apart.

Could you say no to this opportunity? I have to admit, I'd say yes. I'd have been sucked into gangs, drugs and violence if I were that in the 14 year old's position.

Gangs are seductive.

Put them in Foster Homes? Who are these people who provide Foster Homes? Are their reasons monetary? How many other children do they have? Do they have an economic ability to give each child a decent education, college, and a loving home?

What exactly does CPS provide? More turmoil and pain and suffering?

I was hoping when I asked the question, what does CPS provide in my first post, money would have been the first answer I would want to hear.

This is sad!

[TuscanDreams]

Could you say NO?

I can't answer your question - I just don't know.
I'm sure you must encounter this alot. It's a terrible shame. If only there were measures that could be taken for kids in situations like this, but if they keep it hidden then I guess there's nothing anyone can do. Fortunately for him he got caught early. Hopefully when he's released he won't go back to the gang.
Has this kid been released from jail yet?

Your story brought back a memory for me. Back in the early 70's we lived in the 5700 block of Tracy. As houses went on the market, the city bought them and sold them to low-income families. An african american woman and her 5 kids moved in next door. Nice family. We never had an inkling any illegal activity was going on at this house until about 6 months after they moved in.
All of sudden a big huge cage went up around the entire house, wrought iron fencing as high as the roof of the house. How bizarre we thought. Turns out the lady was dealing drugs and prostituting to support her family. We moved shortly thereafter so I don't know what happened to them. This woman was certainly old enough to know better. Sad what people will do for money and they think its in the best interest of their family.

:eek: Thank God you don't live near the 5700 block of Tracy now- it's fairly close to the rolling gun battle that happened on Prospect a few weeks ago. I'm so glad I live far from there. Incidently, the police officer who was shot in the chest is doing much better. He's no longer critical. :rose:

[TuscanDreams]

Put them in Foster Homes? Who are these people who provide Foster Homes? Are their reasons monetary? How many other children do they have? Do they have an economic ability to give each child a decent education, college, and a loving home?

What exactly does CPS provide? More turmoil and pain and suffering?

I was hoping when I asked the question, what does CPS provide in my first post, money would have been the first answer I would want to hear.

This is sad!

WOW, you really don't know, do you? Most people don't realize how horrible a situation these kids have. I'll try to explain.

The kids have to be placed in foster care, because the courts won't allow a 14 year old to be the "parent". They won't give the family money, they only want to put services in place to find the 'mom' and offer her treatment so she can get her kids back. Sadly, in this case, the mom had gone through every community treatment program and did one stint in a prison treatment program and nothing worked. In my opinion, you have to want to be sober to do this and she only went through the programs to avoid jail.

As for foster homes- most foster parents are loving, kind and would do anything to help a child. They only get paid 200 dollars a month for each child, that's it. There are bad foster parents, but they are rare, thank God!

When foster kids turn 15 or 16 (depending on their permanency situation) they begin a program called Independent Living. All states in America have this program, some states have a different name. These kids are taught how to manage money, pay bills and eventually, when they turn 18, they move into their own apartments. The state pays for college, etc.

When I worked for CPS, we passed around a plastic bucket about once a week for a needy foster child. Most foster kids can't even afford to go to Prom, so we made sure they got to go by using our own moolah to send them. It's worth it.

In answer to your question: What exactly does CPS provide? More turmoil and pain and suffering? The answer depends on who you ask. The 15 year old would tell you the state ripped his family apart. The little 4 and 5 year old girls would tell you that they love their new family, but they wish they would see their brothers more often.

[WarmNCozy]

WOW, you really don't know, do you? Most people don't realize how horrible a situation these kids have. I'll try to explain.

The kids have to be placed in foster care, because the courts won't allow a 14 year old to be the "parent". They won't give the family money, they only want to put services in place to find the 'mom' and offer her treatment so she can get her kids back. Sadly, in this case, the mom had gone through every community treatment program and did one stint in a prison treatment program and nothing worked. In my opinion, you have to want to be sober to do this and she only went through the programs to avoid jail.

As for foster homes- most foster parents are loving, kind and would do anything to help a child. They only get paid 200 dollars a month for each child, that's it. There are bad foster parents, but they are rare, thank God!

When foster kids turn 15 or 16 (depending on their permanency situation) they begin a program called Independent Living. All states in America have this program, some states have a different name. These kids are taught how to manage money, pay bills and eventually, when they turn 18, they move into their own apartments. The state pays for college, etc.

When I worked for CPS, we passed around a plastic bucket about once a week for a needy foster child. Most foster kids can't even afford to go to Prom, so we made sure they got to go by using our own moolah to send them. It's worth it.

In answer to your question: What exactly does CPS provide? More turmoil and pain and suffering? The answer depends on who you ask. The 15 year old would tell you the state ripped his family apart. The little 4 and 5 year old girls would tell you that they love their new family, but they wish they would see their brothers more often.

I don't think I could do what you do. I'd be heartbroken every day for those families. Thank God for people like you that do this on a day to day basis!:rose:

[TuscanDreams]

I don't think I could do what you do. I'd be heartbroken every day for those families. Thank God for people like you that do this on a day to day basis!:rose:

Thank you for the kudos, but I don't work in that department any longer. I am in law enforcement, where it is equally discouraging.

WNC- Just remember the "Power of One" is under estimated. One person can change the lives of others, you could be one of those people. Vote, educate and inform people of positive changes and they will happen. :) :seeya:

[WarmNCozy]

Thank you for the kudos, but I don't work in that department any longer. I am in law enforcement, where it is equally discouraging.

WNC- Just remember the "Power of One" is under estimated. One person can change the lives of others, you could be one of those people. Vote, educate and inform people of positive changes and they will happen. :) :seeya:

I will do all those things and more! But you do it personally, which must be so heart wrenching! God Bless!

[Atok]

Until our country and it's citizens change their priorities, these overwhelmingly horrendous situations will not be effectively corrected. It's not all about throwing money at the problem, it's also about management of resources and having the general public realize that it's not a problem they can turn a blind eye to.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard shock come out of people's mouths when they learn that the 'systems' to 'take care of all those issues' are really skeletal at best. As long as the tragedy is not affecting them personally they don't learn how poorly supported those 'systems' are or in actuality how little they are funded, what the limits are on what can be done for intervening; how easy it is to lose 1000's of children to the worldly outside. To crime, despair, poverty, drugs... in AMERICA. When people learn that the support systems are so overburdened, mismanged, buerocratic or simply non-existant they sigh and maybe say a prayer, but they just go along on their day. Stuff it back behind all the other dark thoughts of "Wish we could do something about this, but we can't." They pop their heads up again after a tragedy. "Oh my what a shame, how did this happen?"

NEGLECT. It happens through NEGLECT.

In the previous example we read exactly why gangs can better lure our youth than the CPS support network in place to help struggling situations. The gang spoke about compassion and family and on the spot handed over money.

Instant crisis intervention. How does the legitimate world compete against that?

This is a topic of personal rage for me, so I'm going to stop venting atm. It falls under some of my other rants, like why don't we pay teachers like we pay sports stars? Why don't we build infrastructure to support and educate our citizens that WANT to be healthy? Why don't we treat those who have a chance to be healthy if they got meds or counselling? What do we do with those who do not wish to be well?

Wouldn't this change the levels of our prison/hospital/homeless populations? Right now workers in the field are doing all they can think of to change one life and can only cry when we fail. Eventually you just close the folder and say... I did my best.

It's a HUGE problem that is consistantly swept under the rug in America. I'd like to see a Presidential Candidate unveil a sweeping and fiscally responsible revamp of our nations programs for Social Services. It would touch on Health Care, Education, Criminal Justice, CPS, Law Enforcement, Drugs and Crime. It wouldn't change overnight, but it would start to change if we made it a focus and got it backed by Congress.

[TuscanDreams]

Great post, Atok. Once our government puts lives ahead of money, we could move forward into assisting families and victims. :rose:

[Wichita]

I agree, to a certain extent. I have a problem with the belief that government is the primary tool needed to fix this social and moral issue. My question is where are the churches in the communities where these things happen? Where are the secular,charitable institutions? I am criticizing myself here, so please don't perceive that I am criticizing others.

Churches oftentimes fail to help people who are not "members" of their particular faith. When they do, it's after a specific tragedy, such as Katrina, and then it is temporary because it is expensive and time consuming. Some churches are building larger sanctuaries, gymnasiums, bowling alleys, and mansions for their pastors. They are helping those in their congregations "separate" themselves from the world because of a narrow interpretation of scripture. The world is falling down around them, yet they don't intervene to any great extent.

The government cannot partner with churches because of the fear that it will create a state religion. Separation of church and state is a worthy ideal, but it hamstrings the ability of a team approach to social problems. I'm not saying that the fear is not justifiable, I'm just pointing out one of fundamental inadequacies of our society. The government cannot team up with secular charitable organizations to any great extent either. The Red Cross may be one of the few that benefits from any tax support. We all pay taxes, and as a result, we have less income to give to churches or human service organizations. Therefore, I think that the government has replaced our churches as the "religion" of our society. We expect the government, our church if you will, to provide for the poor, heal the sick, defend our nation from attack, etc. We forget that we are responsible for our communities. The best analogy I can think of is this: When a sports team, say football, is winning the game, all is well. As soon as the other team learns the winning team's strategy, it begins to change the way it attacks the winning team. The coach, as the head of the team, must find a way to thwart the new attack strategies. He tells his team to remember the fundamentals: Control the ball, block for the runners, and give superior pass protection. Listen to the captains, and do what they tell you. In other words, get back to the basics, and make sure you are taking care of those fundamental issues, then expand your attack as a team. As a nation, we have forgotten the fundamentals, and the other team, ie. poverty, crime, drugs, etc., are winning the game. Again, I realize this is a simplistic analogy, but I am not smart enough to be more complicated.

I get frustrated at international charities sometimes, because as much as I am moved by their commercials, I always wonder what, if anything they are doing to alleviate poverty and social injustice here. It is difficult for me to give to them, especially when I know that what you and TuscanDreams are saying is true. Our system is so broken, that if a local church tried to help the 14 year old described in this situation, eventually, CPS would find out and put a stop to the help. After all, no one outside of the government, can be trusted not to exploit the children. There is no trust, and without trust, there will be no progress. The recent sex scandals involving the clergy are one of the reasons that trust has eroded. At 14, I could not have said "No" to the temptation.

[Angie1960]

True - the system is broken. Yes, the kids join gangs to replace the broken families they come from - they get a feeling of belonging, worth, protection all the things they need. On top of drug addicted parents & poverty they have to worry about being killed - out there all on their own. This is the downside of capitalism - the system perpetuates the division of the classes. We tell them pull yourself up by your "bootstraps" - because we think everyone has "bootstraps" - but they don't.

I used to be a foster parent, and there are many good foster parents out there, but there are so many bad ones out for the money my God - did you see the story abouth the foster mopther who put hypodermic needles into her foster daughter's eyes?

Different states pay different amounts and different agencies within those states pay differently as well. I dealt with the most neglected and abused kids and got anywhere from $35 to $65 a day as a therapeutic foster parent.

Even though I know that there are some good foster parents out there, sometimes I think professional well regulated group homes are better. I am now raising my granddaughter who is six (I've had her since she was one) because my daughter became addicted to Metamphetamine - the worst poison and plague on our children to date. We are losing almost a whole generation to this drug. We are going to see more and more kids go into the system because of this drug. I belong to a group called GAP Grandparents As Parents - mostly professional, educated people who tried to raise their children right but like myself, find themselves having to be a parent again because of this drug.

I would hate to see my granddaughter go into foster care.

CPS could do so much better but our president/government prefers funding wars than addresing the real #1 threat to our country: The demoralization of our children. :no:

[Wichita]

I will get back to you on this, Angie. It's late, and I have a busy day tomorrow. I play guitar in a bluegrass band, and I have two shows tomorrow. I would like to discuss this more.

[Angie1960]

I will get back to you on this, Angie. It's late, and I have a busy day tomorrow. I play guitar in a bluegrass band, and I have two shows tomorrow. I would like to discuss this more.

OK curious to hear what you have to say...

[Wichita]

I'm having some trouble understanding the correlation between capitalism and character building concepts like the bootstrap analogy. In a world like the one described by TuscanDreams, wrong is right, and right is wrong. The basic physiological needs of security: food, clothing, shelter, and love, etc., must be met before we can move to the next block in the hierarchy of needs. (See Maslow's Hierarchy on Wikipidea) There are other researchers who disagree with Maslow. However, imo, capitalism is not the culprit for the break down of our morality as a nation. All it takes for evil to prevail, is for "good" people to do nothing. It does not begin with the administration that declares war on terrorism for the sake of the safety of our nation as a whole. It began when we, as a nation, bought into Dr. Spock's theory of child rearing. When parents brought suit against school districts for administering corporal punishment, the line of demarcation between right and wrong became distorted. It moves around, and is applied differently depending the circumstances of each individual situation. It is known as situation ethics. Sometimes its right, and sometimes it isn't. What I'm saying is that the moral decay in our nation started in the home, was perpetuated in our schools, and is bearing fruit in our culture. We stepped away from the basics. When adultery was illegal, the divorce rate was low. After adultery was decriminalized, the divorce rate skyrocketed, and continues to climb. Who suffers the most from divorce? When there is no responsible adult to provide the basics of the hierarchy of needs, to whom do the children turn? If the churches are not actively involved in the community, who is picking up the responsibility? The government. Who is paying the tab? The taxpayer. If the job isn't done right, who cares? I am preaching to myself here, because I have been remiss, too.

I have often wondered why some children reared in families who seemingly have it all: nice home, clothes, parents who aren't fighting constantly, no drunken beatings, etc., turn out to be criminals, while children in poverty pick themselves up by the bootstraps, and become productive citizens. We, as a culture, want to allow excuses for the underdog. He was poor, he was black, he was abused. Maybe those circumstances have something to do with success, but I can only look at my own experience. Without going into detail, I went to 13 schools, was arrested for burglary at age 8. As a second grader, I sold Playboy magazines to other second graders that I had gotten out of dumpsters I dove into. I stole samples of cigarettes, the little packs with 4 cigarettes in them, from a neighbor who was a tobacco sales rep. I sold those to 2nd graders, too. I knew how to steal from vending machines, and I had a fight every day. When did I change, and what brought it about? My grandparents. They loved me and my brothers. They taught us where the "line" between right and wrong was, and if we stepped over it, we were disciplined. Sometimes with the belt, and sometimes with the shame, but always with love. We learned. They also took us to church, where we learned that all people are capable of all manner of wrongdoing, and that forgiveness is divine, even though accountability is the road to correction. We had to be held accountable, even though we would be forgiven. As a society, we don't seem to be passing those lessons along to our children today. If someone prays and asks for God's blessing, we are kooks. If we say "under God" in the pledge, we are creating a state sponsored religion. If we put to death the murderer of our six year old neighbor after she has been tortured and molested, then we are playing God. Shame on us! Someone asked recently, "If we can't protect the worst in our society, how can we protect the best?" I'm not interested, nor do I feel an obligation to protect the worst. We reward acceptable behavior, and sanction poor behavior. Why do we always have to find a reason why someone can't have a normal, healthy sexual relationship with an age appropriate partner? Isn't it enough to realize that something is wrong, and accept that the behavior is not acceptable, and deserving of appropriate punishment? There are mitigating circumstances that may be considered, but not to the detriment of society. The DP is no deterrent, but neither is prison. If it were, then why are our prisons bursting at that seams? Why are our county jails full? Why is community corrections overflowing? We are in deep, deep trouble, and the government is not going to be able to fix it. We simply have to change at the basic, fundamental building block or our culture: the family. There is a higher power, and making it illegal to acknowledge that power in our schools, town halls, assembly chambers, courts, prisons, and legislatures, in favor of a humanistic system is a four lane interstate highway to ruin.

First, I have to love others. Not the sticky, gooey, romance we may be thinking. Its loving someone else, stranger or not, enough to treat them the exact way I would want them to treat me. I will not curse them, steal from them, rape them, murder them, berate them because of envy, sabotage their character because they live differently than I do. But, if they do such things to me, I will hold them accountable morally, socially, and legally. I can forgive them, but they still must pay the price of their choices, whether its ostracizing him, or sending him to jail. This is the only kind of fear that will help us create a safe environment for our families, and thus, our culture. Fear equals respect. Respect equals making the right decisions, even when we are angry, or when we want something we cannot afford. Criminals only think of themselves, and could not care less about how their decisions erode our culture, one drip at a time in the flood of lawlessness. It does not start at the top, in our congress, or the White House. It starts in our poor neighborhoods, and rural communities as it:) makes its way toward the sea of humanity. I'll shut up, now. I hope I didn't offend you....I was talking to myself.

[Angie1960]

I'm having some trouble understanding the correlation between capitalism and character building concepts like the bootstrap analogy. In a world like the one described by TuscanDreams, wrong is right, and right is wrong. The basic physiological needs of security: food, clothing, shelter, and love, etc., must be met before we can move to the next block in the hierarchy of needs. (See Maslow's Hierarchy on Wikipidea) There are other researchers who disagree with Maslow. However, imo, capitalism is not the culprit for the break down of our morality as a nation. All it takes for evil to prevail, is for "good" people to do nothing. It does not begin with the administration that declares war on terrorism for the sake of the safety of our nation as a whole. It began when we, as a nation, bought into Dr. Spock's theory of child rearing. When parents brought suit against school districts for administering corporal punishment, the line of demarcation between right and wrong became distorted. It moves around, and is applied differently depending the circumstances of each individual situation. It is known as situation ethics. Sometimes its right, and sometimes it isn't. What I'm saying is that the moral decay in our nation started in the home, was perpetuated in our schools, and is bearing fruit in our culture. We stepped away from the basics. When adultery was illegal, the divorce rate was low. After adultery was decriminalized, the divorce rate skyrocketed, and continues to climb. Who suffers the most from divorce? When there is no responsible adult to provide the basics of the hierarchy of needs, to whom do the children turn? If the churches are not actively involved in the community, who is picking up the responsibility? The government. Who is paying the tab? The taxpayer. If the job isn't done right, who cares? I am preaching to myself here, because I have been remiss, too.

I have often wondered why some children reared in families who seemingly have it all: nice home, clothes, parents who aren't fighting constantly, no drunken beatings, etc., turn out to be criminals, while children in poverty pick themselves up by the bootstraps, and become productive citizens. We, as a culture, want to allow excuses for the underdog. He was poor, he was black, he was abused. Maybe those circumstances have something to do with success, but I can only look at my own experience. Without going into detail, I went to 13 schools, was arrested for burglary at age 8. As a second grader, I sold Playboy magazines to other second graders that I had gotten out of dumpsters I dove into. I stole samples of cigarettes, the little packs with 4 cigarettes in them, from a neighbor who was a tobacco sales rep. I sold those to 2nd graders, too. I knew how to steal from vending machines, and I had a fight every day. When did I change, and what brought it about? My grandparents. They loved me and my brothers. They taught us where the "line" between right and wrong was, and if we stepped over it, we were disciplined. Sometimes with the belt, and sometimes with the shame, but always with love. We learned. They also took us to church, where we learned that all people are capable of all manner of wrongdoing, and that forgiveness is divine, even though accountability is the road to correction. We had to be held accountable, even though we would be forgiven. As a society, we don't seem to be passing those lessons along to our children today. If someone prays and asks for God's blessing, we are kooks. If we say "under God" in the pledge, we are creating a state sponsored religion. If we put to death the murderer of our six year old neighbor after she has been tortured and molested, then we are playing God. Shame on us! Someone asked recently, "If we can't protect the worst in our society, how can we protect the best?" I'm not interested, nor do I feel an obligation to protect the worst. We reward acceptable behavior, and sanction poor behavior. Why do we always have to find a reason why someone can't have a normal, healthy sexual relationship with an age appropriate partner? Isn't it enough to realize that something is wrong, and accept that the behavior is not acceptable, and deserving of appropriate punishment? There are mitigating circumstances that may be considered, but not to the detriment of society. The DP is no deterrent, but neither is prison. If it were, then why are our prisons bursting at that seams? Why are our county jails full? Why is community corrections overflowing? We are in deep, deep trouble, and the government is not going to be able to fix it. We simply have to change at the basic, fundamental building block or our culture: the family. There is a higher power, and making it illegal to acknowledge that power in our schools, town halls, assembly chambers, courts, prisons, and legislatures, in favor of a humanistic system is a four lane interstate highway to ruin.

First, I have to love others. Not the sticky, gooey, romance we may be thinking. Its loving someone else, stranger or not, enough to treat them the exact way I would want them to treat me. I will not curse them, steal from them, rape them, murder them, berate them because of envy, sabotage their character because they live differently than I do. But, if they do such things to me, I will hold them accountable morally, socially, and legally. I can forgive them, but they still must pay the price of their choices, whether its ostracizing him, or sending him to jail. This is the only kind of fear that will help us create a safe environment for our families, and thus, our culture. Fear equals respect. Respect equals making the right decisions, even when we are angry, or when we want something we cannot afford. Criminals only think of themselves, and could not care less about how their decisions erode our culture, one drip at a time in the flood of lawlessness. It does not start at the top, in our congress, or the White House. It starts in our poor neighborhoods, and rural communities as it:) makes its way toward the sea of humanity. I'll shut up, now. I hope I didn't offend you....I was talking to myself.

It does start at the top - congress IS TOTALLY CORRUPT. They are hypocritical, greedy and counter productive. The poor are a necessary class to be perpetuated by the upper class or else their way of living may be slightly upset & my God we couldn't have that. Education is a key factor in the rural & lower class that needs to be improved - our governmant actually caring about what happens to our children in these areas and providing programs for them because as you say AND YOU ARE RIGHT churches, and "good people" aren't making the grade - they are not helping enough and our children are suffering and growing up to be the criminals or drug addicts that plague our society - WE ARE CREATING THEM.

I for one don't feel we need to make excuses for people who can't have age appropriate relationships - as far as pedophiles go they can all rot and suffer. Granted there is probably a chemical reason that was created originally from abuse. I don't care, they are an unfixable curse that need to be put away for life or put to death.

As far as religion there are just too many different religions in this country and kids need to focus on learning the basics in schools - religion is best left to the family - personally I'm a Quaker but I respect all religions.

You mention Maslow - yes and many people/children don't get those needs met - this is the breakdown pure & simple.

Capitalism is not the culprit but lack of balance is. Our priority should be meeting the needs of our children by whatever means; government, churches, foundations, charities, etc is the cure.

The children are the future and what we have today is the consequence of not meeting those needs.

[Wichita]

We're close to a compromise, here, Angie. Congress is said to be the opposite of progress. I agree that there is corruption in the upper levels of government, but not all of them are corrupt. I agree that one of their responsibilities is to set an example of the ideals that we are interested in living by. I, personally, need to be careful not to consider all of congress as corrupt, based on the individual crimes committed by some. Get them out of office, and elect those who will live it correctly. I know, it's pie in the sky. But, where did it all start? At the top? No. It starts in the home. I realize that we can do everything right in our child rearing, and still some of the little darlings will become politicians, but then they ought be be held accountable. When Clinton left office, how many criminals did he pardon? Not too much was said about this from the liberal media. Yet, every day I hear reports regarding Bush's lying, murdering, ways. I promise you we are not getting the truth from the media, so I am skeptical enough not to blame everything on one administration, or session of congress. It is a cancer that has permeated our entire country, culture, or society, whatever we wish to call it. Bush is not the incarnation of evil that some think he is. These problems we are discussing have been around long before Bush came to office. Perhaps he isn't doing his job like you and millions of others think he should, but he is not responsible for the failure of our social justice system by virtue of the fact that he declared war on radical, Islamist, murdering scum who would murder us all in the blink of any eye if possible.

Because of the way our culture has turned, religious organizations cannot partner with government to alleviate the social problems we have created through the moral decline in our homes. It would violate the separation of church and state concept, which by the way is not in the constitution. I'm not advocating a theocracy, such as Islam. I am advocating a system where we should be taxed less, in order to give more to those local institutions that can make a difference in our communities, such as churches. Not too long ago, we were given a dollar for dollar deduction for charitable contributions. Now, its a percentage. Why the change? Socialists wanted more money for government programs that aren't working?

Our nation is divided into those who want more government, which must be supported by more taxes; and those who want less government to pump more money into the economy in the form of personal wealth. Personal wealth is taboo in socialism, therefore, capitalism is the booger man. Trust between government and the people must be established before any serious headway can be made. I don't think either of us will be putting "I trust the government" bumper stickers on our car this week. But, I digress. I didn't intend for this to become so political. Sorry about that....

[Angie1960]

I agree we are close - And you have a very good point about the taxes. We should have some say where our tax dollars go - Instead of all the red tape leglistlative bull crap that we "vote for" - why don't we have x amt going to necessary items like road maintence, defense, education, etc then have categories that we can check off like elder programs, social services, specific children's programs, drug education, etc.. This is very simplified but then when Americans are paying into the system they can decide right then what programs they want to support.

[WarmNCozy]

Snip>Trust between government and the people must be established before any serious headway can be made...

Our forefathers feared Central Power of the Government over the States, and of the government of its people by the states. The individual was the decider of his fate! The main function of government was protection of life and property! The people elected a representative to speak for them, and they sent a Statesman to Washington, not a politician -- someone pure, idealistic, representing his constituents with a conscience for their good!

The government way back then was not in the business of charity! Charity was a community gift! Someone's house burnt to the ground, the community rebuilt it with charity!

Today's social programs are failing! I agree with Wichita, it has to start in the home, in the community, in the state, and then trickle down into the federal government!

We need more grass roots, community involvement, like the Amish! They take care of each other without thought for themselves!

I know it's a far different world than the writers of the Constitution could ever believe to be -- missiles, rockets, earth destroying nuclear weapons -- but their principles still carry true today.

The Government programs are not protecting those who most need it! It needs to return to the grass roots and a belief that the community will survive by getting involved, being close once again, and not so distant that we don't know what are neighbors are doing! I'd like to go back to the days of someone like "Molly Goldberg" (TV) knowing every single thing that went on in the building she lived in and shouting out to neighbors from her window!

Today, we are tucked into our "home cocoons" Plastered to the internet and HBO, sealing ourselves away from the world! We don't want to see what's happening in our own community much less get involved!

[Tangerine]

honestly, no i would not say no. at 14, with all that responsibility i would feel like i needed the support they were offering. could CPS really help this family. i dunno. they would probably be split up and tossed around from foster home to foster home. its a bad senario either way

[Angie1960]

http://www.knbc.com/politics/14259477/detail.html

Of course...

:shrug:

[Wichita]

The crime rate will increase now, for sure..... : )

[Angie1960]

The crime rate will increase now, for sure..... : )

:confused:

[Wichita]

I was being a smart ass again. I couldn't see the relationship between the veto of the insurance bill and the breakdown of the CPS system. It's probably because I don't have any experience with that end of the spectrum.

[Joe Public]

Please put yourself in this situation- based upon one of my cases:

You are a 14 year old African American male. You have 4 (different dads for each kid) younger siblings who you make sure get to school every morning and are tucked into bed at night. Your mom is rarely home, she's a prostitute and is addicted to crack cocaine. She's been in rehab numerous times and she can't kick the crack habit. You go through the trash cans at restaraunts to find food for your brothers and sisters. You have to work 20 hours a week at a fast food place so you can clothe them. You have to work really hard to make yourself get to school as well, because if you or your siblings miss school, Child Protective Services are notified and your family could fall apart. You sure wish you knew where your Dad is, but you haven't seem him in more than 11 months. Same with the other kids dads.

You are approached by a 17 year old African American male. He claims that if you sell his stuff for him, you won't have to work at the fast food joint and his friends will take care of you and your siblings. They will make sure you are all safe. The 'stuff' you sell is illegal, that's just because of the stupid government trying to get up in your business. Your new friend wants to take care of you and your siblings, he has a bunch of friends. They are called the 51st gang and that's nothing- it's just like a club.Sure, they carry guns, but they only use them if someone tries to kill their friends. Don't listen to the media, they are just trying to sell news and keep black people down. It's a safe group of people to hang out with, they'll love you like family. The new friend pulls out a wad of cash and hands it to you. "Here, you need a fresh start, let us help you. We care, screw those CPS people, forget the police. We have each other and that's all we need. Take the money, you deserve it."

Could you say no?

This is a horrible situation to be in. If what you described happened to me I would have to say that I would put my family first and do the same as that young man did. And I say man because aleast he was looking out for his family which is more than I could say for their fathers. But I have to say that I would have taken the money and sold the dope for these guys if it kept my family feed and clothed. And I hate to admit that because personally I can't stand drug dealers, but I also believe some case honestly can't be helped. Just like this one. I pray for this young man's safety from here on out. :rose:

[Rob.]

I was not too bright at 14 so I would probably say yes. As of now I would reject it, knowing that those types of people would in the long run be a danger for myself and my family.

[Luke Davis]

I was not too bright at 14 so I would probably say yes. As of now I would reject it, knowing that those types of people would in the long run be a danger for myself and my family.

DITTO