Are you pro or anti?

[Levi]

Hello everyone, I'd thought I'd stir up some discussion of whether you are pro DP or anti DP. Choose one & tell why. If there is a personal reason you don't mind sharing, please post.

[grandma]

I am a DP activist and a strong pro. I believe that the DP is appropriate punishment for aggravated murder.

[BabakinsNo1]

I am definately for the death penalty, I live in Scotland, UK, and think that we should have it here. Far too many criminals are getting a cushy life in prison in this country. :cuss: By the Way i'm new here, hi everyone

[prisonNurse]

I am against the DP.
To many convicted people have been exonerated using DNA testing that wasn't available when the crime was commited. The innocence project has had several people freed from jail. IMO spending LWOP is the better alternative. You will be judged when you meet your maker. JMO

[Levi]

Hello there!

In a way I feel like killers should spend the rest of their life in prison (it's more suffering then a needle in their arm). But then again, John Couey, BEGGED for the death sentence when he buried Jessica Lunsford alive. If I had one wish, it would be to bury Couey alive, just as he did Jessica. Same thing with the killers of Christopher Barrios. Words cannot express how I feel about them. I want them to die in the most brutal way imaginable. So to make a long story short: I think killers should die, but in a more violent way then a needle in their arm. Understand?

Hi BeautifulOne, I completely understand where you are coming from! Some of these murders in the news are so hateful, brutal & disgusting you just want to stick em all in the electric chair, bury them alive, or slit their throat. Unfortunately we have a little something that gets in the way: The constitution. So we have to make it where the death penalty isn't "cruel & unusual." A needle in the arm isn't cruel or unusual.

I think it is better than the alternative of life in prison, because often times life just doesn't mean life. I've researched the topic of the death penalty & learned there are so many loop holes. For instance in Oklahoma there is a little known provision that allows someone serving a LWOP sentence apply for early release after serving 15 yrs.

There are also many cases where killers have escaped. Where they get out & kill more.

Long story short if you are dead, you cannot murder or harm anyone else.

[Levi]

I am definately for the death penalty, I live in Scotland, UK, and think that we should have it here. Far too many criminals are getting a cushy life in prison in this country. :cuss: By the Way i'm new here, hi everyone
Welcome to the boards! :seeya:

[Athena]

I am against the DP.
To many convicted people have been exonerated using DNA testing that wasn't available when the crime was commited. The innocence project has had several people freed from jail. IMO spending LWOP is the better alternative. You will be judged when you meet your maker. JMO

I have to agree with this. It is too risky when later it is found out that the person put to death was innocent but then it is too late. I realize new strides are being made in DNA technology but there are careless mistakes made behind the scenes. Until there is a definitive fool-proof way to ensure that the person put to death is guilty, I will have to opt for LWOP.

I strongly believe that laws especially affecting child molesters, be tightened up so that these creep are kept in jail rather than released only to reoffend again. JMO

[Luke Davis]

I favor a death penalty that is fair and timely.

[Jadedblueeyes]

I believe in the death penalty in certain cases. I think it should be used sparingly and the evidence should be overwhelming.

I have never thought the death penalty was a deterrent or even meant to be one. It is the ultimate form of punishment for certain individuals in our justice system. While some may complain that their appeals take way too long I look at it differently than some others may. I dont care how long the appeals take. They certainly aren't going anywhere but what they will know is they are going to pay one day even though they dont know when exactly. Even that is more than they gave their victims. Everyday they get up they will know they are closer to that time.

There are such cases that are so egregious they cry out for more than LWOP where the inmate is being cared for the rest of their sorry pathetic life. Of course I think any case where a child is raped/tortured and murdered by a pedophile deserves nothing less than death but then we also have adult crimes that are just as appalling, like Laci Peterson or Channon and Christopher from TN and so many more like them.

I do believe that with the advancement of DNA there will be less and less innocent people in our prisons. Most all of these cases are older cases where DNA was not tested at the time. So if the evidence in a case is overwhelming then I think the death penalty should be given if the crime is so heinous and way beyond what society is unwilling to accept with a lessor punishment.

imoo

[Athena]

I believe in the death penalty in certain cases. I think it should be used sparingly and the evidence should be overwhelming.

I have never thought the death penalty was a deterrent or even meant to be one. It is the ultimate form of punishment for certain individuals in our justice system. While some may complain that their appeals take way too long I look at it differently than some others may. I dont care how long the appeals take. They certainly aren't going anywhere but what they will know is they are going to pay one day even though they dont know when exactly. Even that is more than they gave their victims. Everyday they get up they will know they are closer to that time.

There are such cases that are so egregious they cry out for more than LWOP where the inmate is being cared for the rest of their sorry pathetic life. Of course I think any case where a child is raped/tortured and murdered by a pedophile deserves nothing less than death but then we also have adult crimes that are just as appalling, like Laci Peterson or Channon and Christopher from TN and so many more like them.

I do believe that with the advancement of DNA there will be less and less innocent people in our prisons. Most all of these cases are older cases where DNA was not tested at the time. So if the evidence in a case is overwhelming then I think the death penalty should be given if the crime is so heinous and way beyond what society is unwilling to accept with a lessor punishment.

imoo

Excellent post Ocean!! :)

[Sharon]

There is so much to say because most legal systems are far from perfect. eg LWP should be no escape ever....but its not, whats up with that? All murderers should have LWP, what is this stupid figure of 10 or 15 years??? I cant get over how some murderers are out by 40yo and have even married and had a child while in prison!!!! (Todays story in Australia, the guy involved killed a mentally disabled woman and also tortured her by biting off her nose, gorging out her eyes and punching her in the throat after raping her. He says out loud that he is glad he did it as she was a nothing. While in prison he got remarried and was allowed a visit where he got his new wife pregnant! What is this, a dating service???? :flamemad: )

So a huge part of me wants the dp just to take away the lives of the evil amongst us...the ultimate punishment. I would even want torture involved for some, really bad torture!

To keep the argument simple I am going to assume no false guilty verdicts, as that complicates everything to a whole other degree.

Alternatively, I want to compare punishments of true lwp compared to dp. Would I rather a perp who killed someone in my family or a friend to be killed or have life in prison. I personally think the dp is a harsher penalty all things being equal. I think as long as there is life the inmate is eatting, having some entertainment, computer, tv etc.....where as death is the end of everything.

But, to my astonishment, I lately read that many inmates try to commit suicide and are on 24/7 guard to keep them alive!!! Even those who get into their suicide are rushed of to ER and brought back. Whats with that? Shouldnt we let the suckers die and save alot of $ in the deal too?

Well, apparantly in the case of one inmate who succeeded in killing himself, his victims family were upset that he got of so easily. It seems that some victims family`s are adement that the inmate will serve out the term in prison as this sentence is much harder than death.

So which is it......is life in prison too good for these murderers or is death the easy way out? Maybe it depends on the prison.

A very good suggestion is to put the child killers in the same cell as another inmate missing his own kids. That would ensure a true eye for an eye imo.

[Hey Paula]

I believe in the death penalty in certain cases. I think it should be used sparingly and the evidence should be overwhelming.

I have never thought the death penalty was a deterrent or even meant to be one. It is the ultimate form of punishment for certain individuals in our justice system. While some may complain that their appeals take way too long I look at it differently than some others may. I dont care how long the appeals take. They certainly aren't going anywhere but what they will know is they are going to pay one day even though they dont know when exactly. Even that is more than they gave their victims. Everyday they get up they will know they are closer to that time.

There are such cases that are so egregious they cry out for more than LWOP where the inmate is being cared for the rest of their sorry pathetic life. Of course I think any case where a child is raped/tortured and murdered by a pedophile deserves nothing less than death but then we also have adult crimes that are just as appalling, like Laci Peterson or Channon and Christopher from TN and so many more like them.

I do believe that with the advancement of DNA there will be less and less innocent people in our prisons. Most all of these cases are older cases where DNA was not tested at the time. So if the evidence in a case is overwhelming then I think the death penalty should be given if the crime is so heinous and way beyond what society is unwilling to accept with a lessor punishment.

imoo

Hi Ocean!

Great post!

You said exactly what I was about to say, including DNA technology having the ability to greatly reduce, if not eliminate, the number of those wrongly convicted in crimes where the perps's DNA is present.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

In California, we just had the fourteenth suicide on Death Row, compared to thirteen executions since the Death Penalty was reinstituted. That is proof to me that it doesn't work effectively.

At a cost of 15 million per execution, taxpayers are not getting a cost effective enforcement.

[Luke Davis]

I am against the DP.
To many convicted people have been exonerated using DNA testing that wasn't available when the crime was commited. The innocence project has had several people freed from jail. IMO spending LWOP is the better alternative. You will be judged when you meet your maker. JMODoesn't that prove it works?

[Sharon]

In California, we just had the fourteenth suicide on Death Row, compared to thirteen executions since the Death Penalty was reinstituted. That is proof to me that it doesn't work effectively.

At a cost of 15 million per execution, taxpayers are not getting a cost effective enforcement.

So in terms of punishment which do you think is a harsher, the ds or life in prison. In Aust. we seem to be getting alot of suicide attempts from prisoners also. Some lifers are fighting for the right to be able to end their life.

Do you think maybe the ds is a prefered sentence for the perp.? I wont to know which one would make them suffer more, or would that depend on the prison? imo

[Lili007]

I've always opposed the DP on principle. I still do. In my view, it's nothing more than killing someone because they killed someone else, so where does it end? An eye for an eye for an eye for an eye for an eye... I think you get the drift.

In cases of serial killers, though, it's different, IMO. It's a question of stopping the killing by stopping the killer, rather than a question of retribution. Though both are equally important, IMO.

I've just never felt that I was entitled to pass a "death" or execution verdict on another human being to punish them for taking another human being's life. I'd only be doing what they did in the first place, though I'd be doing it legally.

I know it's a poor argument, but there it is. I just don't believe in deliberately taking someone's life, for whatever reason. Murderers could serve their consecutive sentences in prison for the rest of their lives without a glimpse of blue sky or the feel of grass under their feet or smell of flowers in the spring. That's probably more cruel a sentence than death. But to deliberately and scientifically put them to death in this day and age? I just can't agree with that.

I know it costs taxpayers heaps of money to keep prisoners where they belong, and I'm not trying to take the high moral ground here - just saying that I'd rather pay my dues to keep murderers in jail for the rest of their ugly, horrible and miserable lives rather than have anything to do with their being executed at the expense of my conscience.

JMO

[Lili007]

So in terms of punishment which do you think is a harsher, the ds or life in prison. In Aust. we seem to be getting alot of suicide attempts from prisoners also. Some lifers are fighting for the right to be able to end their life.

Do you think maybe the ds is a prefered sentence for the perp.? I wont to know which one would make them suffer more, or would that depend on the prison? imo

I realise your question wasn't addressed to me, but I'd like to make a couple of comments, if I may.

I think it depends on the person, rather than the prison.

If the person feels that prison is worse than death, it pretty much equates to 'death is better than prison'. Most prison suicides in Australia are by Aboriginals in custody. Whether it be on minor matters or not, it's a question of culture and the Aboriginal culture and way of living dates back thousands of years before our own.

Their way of life is different, despite the civilsation that changed their world, for better or worse - that's history that neither I nor anyone else can change or re-write. I think being locked up in a cell is probably worse than death to a person who has some thousands of years of conditioning by heritage to be free to roam the outdoors and live with the elements in the brunt of nature.

But that's different from someone who knowingly and maliciously takes the life of another. They belong in jail, for the rest of their lives, though I can't bring myself to say they deserve to be legally killed for it.

JMO

[Sharon]

I realise your question wasn't addressed to me, but I'd like to make a couple of comments, if I may.

I think it depends on the person, rather than the prison.

If the person feels that prison is worse than death, it pretty much equates to 'death is better than prison'. Most prison suicides in Australia are by Aboriginals in custody. Whether it be on minor matters or not, it's a question of culture and the Aboriginal culture and way of living dates back thousands of years before our own.

Their way of life is different, despite the civilsation that changed their world, for better or worse - that's history that neither I nor anyone else can change or re-write. I think being locked up in a cell is probably worse than death to a person who has some thousands of years of conditioning by heritage to be free to roam the outdoors and live with the elements in the brunt of nature.

But that's different from someone who knowingly and maliciously takes the life of another. They belong in jail, for the rest of their lives, though I can't bring myself to say they deserve to be legally killed for it.

JMO
Thanks for replying. I welcome all opinions as being interesting and educational.

Just to add to what you have written, I agree 100% about the Aboriginals. And to be honest they get such a bad rap in prison that it is even dubious why they are so imprisioned as a people compared to the general population. There are problems with the A. community that are so rife it is like a haulocaust for many of them...drugs, alchohol, child rapings, no education due to parential neglect, poverty etc.

My post re. ds was more about lifers who have commited crimes to be in prison for their whole life. These are not usually A. but ordinary white people who have commited horrific acts of violence.

I was interested in how some of these prisinors are trying to commit suicide and much resourses are being spent to watch over them 24/7. It appears that the families of the victims want them alive to suffer. I would have thoughthe dp is the worst punishment, but to some life in prison is the worst.

I was interested in others opinions.

[Mojave]

I am actually opposed to the death penalty. Yes, I do believe that there are some people who are truly evil and deserve to die. Big time. However, I think it is a question of 'Should we be the ones doing the killing?' Here are my reasonings.

1) As much as we try, I do not think our justice system is fair yet. Maybe fair is an impossibility. The fact is, if you have more money, you can hire better representation and, therefore, have a better chance of avoiding death. Despite all of our efforts, status, race, age and gender still weigh heavily in or against a suspects favor.

2) I think of Ira Einhorn, the man who killed his girlfriend and then lived all of the good years of his life in luxury in France. The reason they wouldn't give him back to us? The death penalty. Other countries have done away with it as barbaric and, because we put people to death, those countries can refuse to extradite our criminals back to us. If you are a suspect who could face the death penalty, just go to France or Canada.

3) The morbid side of me thinks that tdeath just doesn't cut it for some crimes. I understant we have rules against cruel and inhumane punishments, but it seems the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Tell me if I'm wrong on this, but I understand that a death row inmate is taken out of the general populace, protected from violence by other prisoners, given a last meal, last rites and then euthanised. How does this stack against what they did to their victims? I think a life in the general prison population is much worse.

[Charon]

I am SO PRO-DP.

The current constitution of South Africa does not allow for the DP anymore since it was a feature of the old Apartheid system. Murder and general savagery does not observe concepts like Apartheid or Democracy and only florishes where the value of life deminishes.

Sounds strange comming from a guy who's pro-DP, doesn't it and yes some people view DP to be nothing more than state sanctioned murder. State sanctioned murder is in effect the exact oposite. Churchill, I think, once said that "for evil to truimph, you only need good people to stand by and do nothing" or something to that effect. My government is standing by and watching it's citizens being slaughtered by the thousands, something which rarely happened when our gallows were still in use.

Killers does not deserve the right to life. Neither does those who kill the souls of others i.e. rapists & child molestors. Frankly, do I also view abortionists in the same light. I do not mince words. Never learned to, I'm afraid, so look for your prozak.

When you start killing killers, the killing stops. Very simple and PROVEN.

[sarge204]

Hello out there.
I agree with the death penalty. I'm a cop in TX. and have seen some ugly things. i've been on the job for almost 30 years. Every time I think that I can't be suprised by the stuff people do to each other, I get shocked again. I think some of our criminals are just a waste of skin out here. Any way, thanks for the chance to reply.

[Sharon]

Hello out there.
I agree with the death penalty. I'm a cop in TX. and have seen some ugly things. i've been on the job for almost 30 years. Every time I think that I can't be suprised by the stuff people do to each other, I get shocked again. I think some of our criminals are just a waste of skin out here. Any way, thanks for the chance to reply.

Sarge that was well said. imo

[Lili007]

Thanks for replying. I welcome all opinions as being interesting and educational.

Just to add to what you have written, I agree 100% about the Aboriginals. And to be honest they get such a bad rap in prison that it is even dubious why they are so imprisioned as a people compared to the general population. There are problems with the A. community that are so rife it is like a haulocaust for many of them...drugs, alchohol, child rapings, no education due to parential neglect, poverty etc.

My post re. ds was more about lifers who have commited crimes to be in prison for their whole life. These are not usually A. but ordinary white people who have commited horrific acts of violence.

I was interested in how some of these prisinors are trying to commit suicide and much resourses are being spent to watch over them 24/7. It appears that the families of the victims want them alive to suffer. I would have thoughthe dp is the worst punishment, but to some life in prison is the worst.

I was interested in others opinions.

Well, you're getting at least one - probablyThis is where I can't draw the line. To me, a good, kind person is just that, whatever religion they follow or whatever their skin colour is. followed by another


Peace

[Lili007]

Thanks for replying. I welcome all opinions as being interesting and educational.

Just to add to what you have written, I agree 100% about the Aboriginals. And to be honest they get such a bad rap in prison that it is even dubious why they are so imprisioned as a people compared to the general population. There are problems with the A. community that are so rife it is like a haulocaust for many of them...drugs, alchohol, child rapings, no education due to parential neglect, poverty etc.

My post re. ds was more about lifers who have commited crimes to be in prison for their whole life. These are not usually A. but ordinary white people who have commited horrific acts of violence.

I was interested in how some of these prisinors are trying to commit suicide and much resourses are being spent to watch over them 24/7. It appears that the families of the victims want them alive to suffer. I would have thoughthe dp is the worst punishment, but to some life in prison is the worst.

I was interested in others opinions.

This is where I can't draw the line. To me, a good, kind person is just that, whatever religion they follow, or more importantly, believe in.


Peace

[diamond d]

At this point in time I am Against the death penalty, my reason being that it has been proven that it is not a deterrent to crime, so until a study can show that it is a deterrent my vote will be no to the death penalty.

[luciferos]

One must be careful when hunting monsters lest we become monsters ourselves.

I am against the death penalty. It is a barbaric practice of vengeance and nothing more. It is not a deterrent and too many have died while innocent (see: the West Memphis Three where Damien sits on death row without any sufficient evidence outside of metallica shirts and stephen king novels to this day). While hundreds have been freed from death row, showing the errors of the whole system, you have to wonder how many more have died who didn't get a chance to be freed. Surely if hundreds have been exonerated...the numbers who were not so fortunate must be much higher.

It's all much like the Salem witch trials. There is a reason most of the civilized world has abolished the death penalty. I think these days people want their vengeance, their witches. They're becoming the monsters they are destroying. That's all I see when I see families dancing and laughing after the execution of another human being who killed their own human being. Or, as it seems, probably had nothing to do with it at all as witnessed in many cases...

[sarge204]

Luci,
Youre right, you have to be careful when hunting monsters, But in some cases, I've become a believer that maybe it's worth becoming what you seek to a certain degree. I have worked cases of sexual assaults of kids and child murders and guess I've become jaded to the point that I sometimes think it's wortj the risk.
I'm at the point in my life that i can't remember all the dead people I've seen, I hope thats the risk of being a police officer for several years.
Sarge 204

[Levi]

I have never thought the death penalty was a deterrent or even meant to be one.
That is not true. The death penalty is a deterrent. Here is an interesting link which shows how the death penalty is a deterrent: http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/deterrence.htm

Also according to JFA (Justice For All) A Texas victims rights group. Since the resumption of executions in 1982, the annual number of murders has plummeted from 701 to 241, a 72 percent decrease. In Harris County.


While some may complain that their appeals take way too long I look at it differently than some others may. I dont care how long the appeals take. They certainly aren't going anywhere but what they will know is they are going to pay one day even though they dont know when exactly. Even that is more than they gave their victims. Everyday they get up they will know they are closer to that time.
What do you mean they aren't going anywhere? There is always a chance that they will escape. There is always a chance they will kill a prison guard or another inmate. We need to speed up the appeals. Ever heard of "swift justice"?

[Levi]

Hello out there.
I agree with the death penalty. I'm a cop in TX. and have seen some ugly things. i've been on the job for almost 30 years. Every time I think that I can't be suprised by the stuff people do to each other, I get shocked again. I think some of our criminals are just a waste of skin out here. Any way, thanks for the chance to reply.
Hi, welcome to the boards. And thank you for your service as a Cop. I've seen the show COPS and I honestly don't know how you guys do it, working with some of the low life trashy bum's that you do. I can understand why having a job in law enforcement when you are dealing with dirt bags would make you be pro death penalty.

[diamond d]

That is not true. The death penalty is a deterrent. Here is an interesting link which shows how the death penalty is a deterrent: http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/deterrence.htm

Also according to JFA (Justice For All) A Texas victims rights group. Since the resumption of executions in 1982, the annual number of murders has plummeted from 701 to 241, a 72 percent decrease. In Harris County.


What do you mean they aren't going anywhere? There is always a chance that they will escape. There is always a chance they will kill a prison guard or another inmate. We need to speed up the appeals. Ever heard of "swift justice"?

Levi I checked out your link and went over the stats, at first glance I can see how one could draw the conclusion that indeed the DP is a definite deterrent to homicide / murder, however we all know that it is a well known fact that all statistics can be manipulated and skewed to show any result the scientist wants to show. My vote at this point is still, no to the death penalty.

[mrs gates]

Before anyone can quote statistics, how many of you have actually worked in a prison with closed custody inmates? I have and as sarge204 knows by being a cop, the death penalty being enforced would actually deter people from committing a haenous crime. We have 19 people under the sentence of death-1 being a woman for killing her children and husband when she set a fire to her house with them inside. She has also been suspected of the deaths of two prior children and several attempts on family members and friends, but because she never stayed in 1 place too long, she made sure there was mostly circumstantial evidence and not enough trail to follow. (Deadly Confidante by Nancy Poore-great reading)

The longest running inmate has been serving his death sentence time being since 1981. We have only executed 1 person in January 1994 after he dropped all his appeals. Now, I understand that inmates are allowed a large amount of appeals when sentenced to death (this is what makes the bill so high, not the actual housing costs)(the price of the 3 drugs that are used costs right around 100.00 total), however, I believe that there will not be any DNA evidence to overturn these earlier crimes if it hasn't been found by now. And, lethal injection is very humane and it doesn't hurt. They are put to sleep before their heart is stopped and they don't feel it. And when people say that it hurts, has anyone ever lived through this process to tell us it hurts?

I have talked to several people on our Idaho death row and several of them have told me that if there was an actual fear of being executed, they would have thought twice about committing the crimes. But, at the time, they had no place to go-many homeless or destitute and they knew they wouldn't be executed, they would get 3 squares a day, a bed to sleep in and cable on tv.

So, before saying that you are so humane that they should not pay for committing their crimes, or at least only pay to a lesser extent, go work in the prison system for a short time and you will discover that you may change your mind based upon what you see and hear.

[maryhaze]

i'm totally in the pro camp. i think it was John Douglas (profiler) who said & i'm paraphrasing this that he'd rather give an innocent victim-to-be a first chance than a convicted killer a 2nd chance. i agree & wonder if anyone else here has read his books?

[grandma]

Great quote Mary! I have to remember that :beer:

[Levi]

i'm totally in the pro camp. i think it was John Douglas (profiler) who said & i'm paraphrasing this that he'd rather give an innocent victim-to-be a first chance than a convicted killer a 2nd chance. i agree & wonder if anyone else here has read his books?
Yes, I like him. I just got done with Anatomy of Motive. And I picked up the book "The Cases that Haunt Us."

[Charon]

I'm once again voicing my 100% support for the DP.

Like SARGE204 have I, as police photographer, seen more than my share of people who died violently. It is incredibly difficult not to wish these perpetrators ill when you witness the monstrous deads most of them are capable of. I always prayed for the victims and their loved ones and I cried for mankind in general.

I have never been victim of violent crime personally. Been shot and shot at, yes, but never in a personal way. I got paid to endure that. What I have witness, however, made this subject very personal. I will die with all those images in my head. That is my sentence, while the perpetrators go on living their wicket lives. May they rot in hell and their way there hastened by the death penalty.

Have a nice day.

[Luke Davis]

So in terms of punishment which do you think is a harsher, the ds or life in prison. In Aust. we seem to be getting alot of suicide attempts from prisoners also. Some lifers are fighting for the right to be able to end their life.

Do you think maybe the ds is a prefered sentence for the perp.? I wont to know which one would make them suffer more, or would that depend on the prison? imo

I think in large part it depends on the person. Someone who is very social could have a difficult time in isolation, while a loner might prefer solitary to being in the genral population.

Speaking for myself, I would want the DS.

[diamond d]

The problem I have with the death penalty is this, the DP is all about revenge against a person who did something horrific to another person. This in itself is the problem, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that revenge is an act that can only be carried out AFTER an act has been committed, people, would it not be smarter to actually DETER the act from taking place in the first place and we all know by now the DP is not an effective deterrent, so once again my vote is NO to the DP...

[Sharon]

Before anyone can quote statistics, how many of you have actually worked in a prison with closed custody inmates? I have and as sarge204 knows by being a cop, the death penalty being enforced would actually deter people from committing a haenous crime. We have 19 people under the sentence of death-1 being a woman for killing her children and husband when she set a fire to her house with them inside. She has also been suspected of the deaths of two prior children and several attempts on family members and friends, but because she never stayed in 1 place too long, she made sure there was mostly circumstantial evidence and not enough trail to follow. (Deadly Confidante by Nancy Poore-great reading)

The longest running inmate has been serving his death sentence time being since 1981. We have only executed 1 person in January 1994 after he dropped all his appeals. Now, I understand that inmates are allowed a large amount of appeals when sentenced to death (this is what makes the bill so high, not the actual housing costs)(the price of the 3 drugs that are used costs right around 100.00 total), however, I believe that there will not be any DNA evidence to overturn these earlier crimes if it hasn't been found by now. And, lethal injection is very humane and it doesn't hurt. They are put to sleep before their heart is stopped and they don't feel it. And when people say that it hurts, has anyone ever lived through this process to tell us it hurts?

I have talked to several people on our Idaho death row and several of them have told me that if there was an actual fear of being executed, they would have thought twice about committing the crimes. But, at the time, they had no place to go-many homeless or destitute and they knew they wouldn't be executed, they would get 3 squares a day, a bed to sleep in and cable on tv.

So, before saying that you are so humane that they should not pay for committing their crimes, or at least only pay to a lesser extent, go work in the prison system for a short time and you will discover that you may change your mind based upon what you see and hear.

Im with you here all the way!!!!!!

[Sharon]

The problem I have with the death penalty is this, the DP is all about revenge against a person who did something horrific to another person. This in itself is the problem, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that revenge is an act that can only be carried out AFTER an act has been committed, people, would it not be smarter to actually DETER the act from taking place in the first place and we all know by now the DP is not an effective deterrent, so once again my vote is NO to the DP...

Of course a society must do its best to ensure that conditions are optimal for not creating monsters. We need to help with unwanted children, poverty, no education, hopelessness, drug abuse etc

But, there is an element in society that is born evil, they are just wired that way, there is nothing anyone can do to deter them. At the very least they should be given the death penalty because it will be the only deterence that will work for them. And this will deter them from hurting their next victim, which is inevitable as long as they are free to mingle in society. imo

[Sharon]

Levi I checked out your link and went over the stats, at first glance I can see how one could draw the conclusion that indeed the DP is a definite deterrent to homicide / murder, however we all know that it is a well known fact that all statistics can be manipulated and skewed to show any result the scientist wants to show. My vote at this point is still, no to the death penalty.

Well, the dp is definately a deterent to their next murder. I think society deserves to be protected from people who feel very entitled to kill for their own pleasure.

In Aust. this year I read of a monstrous crime where 2 brothers raped and killed a retarded woman. They tortured her by gauging out her eyes and biting off her nose. Well guess what, they are proud of what they did and openly say that the b1tch deserved what she got. Life in prison for them meant less than 20 years. One of them remarried and has a child waiting for him. He is getting out this year!!! He should be 6 foot under imo!

[Charon]

Well said, Sharon.

I, for one, absolutely HATE the idea that my tax money is feeding those very same creeps that I fear in prison. They are being fed and clothed with my money while their buddies are teaching them more and more ways of being effective criminals. They receive an education in crime on my expense.

Hell, I can rephrase the above from all directions and it'll come down to the same sick situation and guess what, ANTI-DP?: You are funding them too, and when they come out, not IF, they may be knocking on your doors... What are you gonna tell them?

"Please Mr. Rapest/child killer/serial murderer/pshyco, do not rape/murder/savage me! I actualy held your wretched life dear.I am all for you being alive and well. Now off you go, go sodomise my neighbour."

I will NOT face my fellow man knowing that I actually aproved of the very existance of these monsters. If I value law and order, I can not value the lives of those who do not value the lives of others. IMO AND PROUD OF IT!

[Sharon]

Well said, Sharon.

I, for one, absolutely HATE the idea that my tax money is feeding those very same creeps that I fear in prison. They are being fed and clothed with my money while their buddies are teaching them more and more ways of being effective criminals. They receive an education in crime on my expense.

Hell, I can rephrase the above from all directions and it'll come down to the same sick situation and guess what, ANTI-DP?: You are funding them too, and when they come out, not IF, they may be knocking on your doors... What are you gonna tell them?

"Please Mr. Rapest/child killer/serial murderer/pshyco, do not rape/murder/savage me! I actualy held your wretched life dear.I am all for you being alive and well. Now off you go, go sodomise my neighbour."

I will NOT face my fellow man knowing that I actually aproved of the very existance of these monsters. If I value law and order, I can not value the lives of those who do not value the lives of others. IMO AND PROUD OF IT!

And.....in addition to that, the thing that concerns me is that perps who get life in prison, dont actually spend their whole life behind bars. Depraved murderers, rapists and peds are getting out into society while they are relatively young. They are just ticking time bombs waiting to reoffend against some innocent victim.

So my concern is that life in prison doesnt exist. There seem to be therapists (more crazy than the inmates) missing the mark at every turn and giving the thumbs up on how these perps are so rehabilitated.

I have to laugh about how one perp. on parole had the head of his lattest victim in his car while he visited his therapist, who was very impressed with his progress!!!!

For me, I want these people destroyed. I dont want them near me or my family or my friends or near anyone. They have no conscience, no ability to change, they can only do harm and should be stopped. I dont think there is any alternative that is fair to society. imo

[maryhaze]

IIRC, that was Edmund Kemper who had the head of the 15yr old in his trunk.

[WarmNCozy]

I'm definitely for the DP. What disturbs me is these miserable excuses for a human being sit on Death Row for years and years on our tax dollars.

[Michelle fom Ma]

With DP, how do you reconize that the tons of people, literally, have been falsely executed by the DP already? Should the United States be a nation like Nancy Grace wants and decries that every non-convicted victim should be executed? Her record of incompetence should bre be evividence that persecuting innocent people does not result in any justice.

[Spanishlady]

I do not believe in the death penalty myself, even though there are crimes committed that are just heineous (sp), I still believe that it is best to lock them up and throw away the key. A kill for a kill is not the way to apply justice. Remember, that when you are dead, you are at peace, so why kill someone, so they can be at peace? No, I want them to live and suffer in prison. I want them to remember for the rest of their lives what they have done to their victims and the families on both sides.:mad:

[Levi]

Levi I checked out your link and went over the stats, at first glance I can see how one could draw the conclusion that indeed the DP is a definite deterrent to homicide / murder, however we all know that it is a well known fact that all statistics can be manipulated and skewed to show any result the scientist wants to show. My vote at this point is still, no to the death penalty.
By Your same argument than we cannot trust stats that say it is not a deterrent .

[Levi]

With DP, how do you reconize that the tons of people, literally, have been falsely executed by the DP already? Should the United States be a nation like Nancy Grace wants and decries that every non-convicted victim should be executed? Her record of incompetence should bre be evividence that persecuting innocent people does not result in any justice.
Name the "tons" of people that have been falsely executed by the death penalty?

Good Luck! :seeya:

[Levi]

I do not believe in the death penalty myself, even though there are crimes committed that are just heineous (sp), I still believe that it is best to lock them up and throw away the key. A kill for a kill is not the way to apply justice. Remember, that when you are dead, you are at peace, so why kill someone, so they can be at peace? No, I want them to live and suffer in prison. I want them to remember for the rest of their lives what they have done to their victims and the families on both sides.:mad:
I wouldn't have a problem with what you are saying if we just stuck the evil scum bags in a hole and gave them no contact with the outside world.

Not only can their family and attorney's visit them but they can also have pen pals sometimes deranged nut cases who like to write them and send them money and make fan clubs for the evil murderers on myspace and print out the comments other thug huggers write about them on myspace and send it to them in a letter.

There is even a website that reminds me of a fan club for death row inmates called CCADP (Canadian Coalition to Abolish the DP) Their logo is "death row ONLINE!" And it has the faces of the murderers in the back ground and the members of the site blow sunshine up the you know what of murderers.

Not to mention the MONEY it costs to keep them in jail, their life just isn't worth it. And don't get me started on their appeals!

[Dr. Ruth G.]

I believe in the death penalty in certain cases. I think it should be used sparingly and the evidence should be overwhelming.

I have never thought the death penalty was a deterrent or even meant to be one. It is the ultimate form of punishment for certain individuals in our justice system. While some may complain that their appeals take way too long I look at it differently than some others may. I dont care how long the appeals take. They certainly aren't going anywhere but what they will know is they are going to pay one day even though they dont know when exactly. Even that is more than they gave their victims. Everyday they get up they will know they are closer to that time.

There are such cases that are so egregious they cry out for more than LWOP where the inmate is being cared for the rest of their sorry pathetic life. Of course I think any case where a child is raped/tortured and murdered by a pedophile deserves nothing less than death but then we also have adult crimes that are just as appalling, like Laci Peterson or Channon and Christopher from TN and so many more like them.

I do believe that with the advancement of DNA there will be less and less innocent people in our prisons. Most all of these cases are older cases where DNA was not tested at the time. So if the evidence in a case is overwhelming then I think the death penalty should be given if the crime is so heinous and way beyond what society is unwilling to accept with a lessor punishment.
imoo

I have worked as a Medical Examiner now for years, and when the evidence confirms the guilt of the accused. I also agree that in the case of first degree murder or murder of a child or sexual molestation and murder of another individual (child or adult) then I do agree that the DEATH PENALTY is the appropriate sentence. After you have observed a few real Autopsies, and you begin to appreciate all of the work that goes into protecting the integrity of evidence collection from a victim. You also KNOW that the victim's remains is the silent witness to someone who performs these procedures. I know that some people are truly monsters who would be a danger to Correctional Officers if housed in Prison for the rest of their life, or allowed back into the public if they were to ever be allowed to be free again. I approve of the use of the Death Penalty for these people, and I have seen the real proof of their savagery, I do not believe it will simply stop or they can be cured of this kind of barbaric and cruel behavior.

This is a belief that I have developed from years of work with victims, of all ages, genders and ethnicities. There is no excuse for the behaviors of murderers or factors that would make them change, if allowed I believe most would murder again, and I believe very few of them feel on iota of remorse, the only way they feel sorry is feeling sorry for being caught or self-pity for having to face that date of execution! IMO :(

[certoceto]

I agree completetly with Dr Ruth G. After you have picked up a childs body parts from a terrorist scene or uncovered a child from a shallow grave then something does die inside a person, and the belief that that DEATH PENALTY is the right sentence is confirmed. I suggest to all the people that hold the LIFE SENTENCE belief to get a job in the emergency services, and see for themselves what a minority of people are capable of...You would not believe it!

[beaky]

Hi to all,
I am a new member and I think this is a great site...
I don't know what answer to give to the DP question but my jumbled thoughts are as follows...

There are two sides to this...or is it three..
One side says kill em..they are all bad

The other side says ..they have rights and are humans too...

If our nation is invaded ..our troops kill the attackers and lock up the rest until hostilities cease...we don't kill the prisoners of war.

If a Police officer comes accross a criminal Red Handed...the PO draws his gun to warn and control the suspect...if the suspect makes a threatening move the PO can shoot...

When a criminal is on DR can he still be said to be a threat...he is caged..
The criminal act is over...Past and cannot be changed....Their hostilities have ceased or are interupted at least.

So is the DP really peoples mis-placed vengeance or anger against what the criminal did....I dont think it is right to act on these emotions...If police acted on every emotion they felt there would be outcry...I expect many have to go somewhere quiet and punch a wall quite often...I know I would.

Then there is the third side...If we don't kill the criminal they get a sentence... then they are let out after having cable tv and healthcare and three squares a day etc...

Here is the real let down....The soft system...

why not make the prison sentence the punishment...no parole ever....chain gangs...basic food rations...we could study the cause of the criminals behaviour...

Instead of killing the person why not erase their rights ...but use them solely for societys benefit...I don't see the real use of the DP logically...it does not deter crime...or bring back a victim

I read somewhere that the mental health people will never fully agree with the Police authorities...Because each wants to have ownership of the theories
used to catch serious criminals...Each wants to be the specialist at catching....instead of looking at eliminating the original cause..

I am rambling a bit but my point is in here somewhere...

[maryhaze]

the "criminals are just misunderstood" crowd will never allow chain gangs, basic rations, no parole. it won't happen. not when there are lawyers out there who will sue because the poor criminal got a broken cookie or because they are allowed to get porn on cable in their cell. & the Dp won't bring back the victims or (maybe) deter crime. what the DP does is make damn sure that criminal never hurts another person & maybe bring closure to the families of victims. & thats good enough for me.

[beaky]

I see your point...
But doesn't it take years to get to an execution..Which is actually a homicide.
And arn't there other methods to render the criminal harmless...drugs...straight jackets etc.
I am not for or against DP yet but I would like to hear more views.

[kjb19500]

I have mixed feelings about the DP. In the case of especially heinous crimes (Manson murders), terrorist acts (McVey), first degree murder or cases involving torture and murder, especially against children, the elderly and others unable to protect themselves IF THERE IS ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT THE ACCUSED ACTUALLY COMMITTED THE CRIME. The last category of criminals I would use the DP against are public servants, especially elected, who violated the public trust and the integrity of their office for personal gain. IMO, these subhumans are as bad as any serial killer because their actions cause a lot more suffering on its victims and society in general.

[beaky]

That is another aspect of DP....

Can we trust ..absolute proof..
We are humans and fallible...we make mistakes...prosecutions can select certain evidence in order to sway juries thoughts..

At the end of the day a trial comes down to who made the jury believe them the most.

But there are appeals I suppose....

[accordn2me]

I have mixed feelings about the DP. In the case of especially heinous crimes (Manson murders), terrorist acts (McVey), first degree murder or cases involving torture and murder, especially against children, the elderly and others unable to protect themselves IF THERE IS ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT THE ACCUSED ACTUALLY COMMITTED THE CRIME. The last category of criminals I would use the DP against are public servants, especially elected, who violated the public trust and the integrity of their office for personal gain. IMO, these subhumans are as bad as any serial killer because their actions cause a lot more suffering on its victims and society in general.

I don't have mixed feelings about the DP. I like your idea about extending it to other crimes like the ones perpetrated knowingly and willingly by public servants. That would be just fine with me. I read a book.....a long, long time ago......I think the title was Swift and Sure. It was written by a judge, iirc. The point was that our justice system is failing because punishment is not swift, or certain. He said to be effective...whether you are dealing with children, criminals, animals....whatever.....the offender has to know that punishment will happen immediately after the offense (swiftly) and after every offense (for sure). I should also note one of the points made was that the punishment does not have to be severe, just swift and sure. Makes sense to me.

[beaky]

Perhaps we need the DP because we cannot trust the system not to keep the monsters caged...some idiot do-gooder or psychiatrist will see them in a new light and release them...I also don't agree with allowing the killers to become celebrities...does the money they make from books and film rights go to the victims...?

Also why is there an arguement about methods...why not just use a firing squad...Followed by a shot to the head...JMO

[The R]

well I don't have mixed feelings about it either but I can safely say I'm neither pro or anti. I prefer to look at the DP on a case-by-case basis....seems the reasonable thing to me anyway.

I do see validity in the APA recommendation to halt the DP temporarily, at least until some cases could be reviewed for the possibility of exonerating DNA evidence and/or late breaking relevant information such as a prosecutor withholding evidence.(Nifong ring a bell?)

ALLMO,
R

[The R]

I have mixed feelings about the DP. In the case of especially heinous crimes (Manson murders), terrorist acts (McVey), first degree murder or cases involving torture and murder, especially against children, the elderly and others unable to protect themselves IF THERE IS ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT THE ACCUSED ACTUALLY COMMITTED THE CRIME. The last category of criminals I would use the DP against are public servants, especially elected, who violated the public trust and the integrity of their office for personal gain. IMO, these subhumans are as bad as any serial killer because their actions cause a lot more suffering on its victims and society in general.


KJB,

I promise I'm not trying to offend you or bait you, but you do realize that you'd be killing off the vast majority of our government officials, right?

lol and ALLMO,
R

[accordn2me]

KJB,

I promise I'm not trying to offend you or bait you, but you do realize that you'd be killing off the vast majority of our government officials, right?

lol and ALLMO,
RIt would only take one round of executions, possibly two for some offices, and guaranteed, the next round of elected officials would tow the line. :patriot:

[wind149]

What bothers me about the death penalty is the amount of time they sit on death row! In CA, I can think of at least two scumbags who have not been executed yet and they committed their crimes in the 80's! Richard Ramirez, is one of them and it has been twenty years so far he has been on death row. Richard Allan Davis, that puke, is still rotting there too. I will never forget the day he was sentenced to death, he turns around and flips the bird at Mark Klaas! I would have gone over the podium and got one shot in at least. Tell me why these POs 's are still breathing??? If you have a solid case and only the one actor like that maggot, what is there to appeal? It is just more agony for the victim's families. Susan Schorpen said after Joseph Smith was sentenced to death for the horrific rape and murder of her daughter, "he is still breathing and my daughter isn't" I will never forget the look on her face. Yes, she was relieved to know he was going to death row, but at the same time, he wasn't being executed that night. She will have to wait at least 10 years before that fat disgusting piece of dog crap gets his. And with all the debate about lethal injection, how some of these bleeder groups who need to keep their mouths shut and stay out of executions claim it is inhumane, who gives a rat's ass if they feel pain? I would hope they feel lots of pain, what in hell did their victims feel? Can you imagine Jessie's Lunsford's pain with that pig violating her child body, and then imagine her horror when she realizes he has buried her in a hole from which she can't escape? It took 1-8 minutes for that sweet angel to suffocate to death and we have these tree huggers whining about how cruel it is to execute someone by putting a needle in their arm? How about burning them at the stake? How about letting 24 bikers and Mark go into the prison and pay him a visit? I would buy the pig and the beer!! My sister volunteered to buy the mops! These do gooders wave their propaganda in the faces of the families, screaming how cruel, how inhumane, the SOB who took the lives of their loved ones will have to face! None of these asswipes think of the victims first. I hate these people!! If anything, we need more painful methods not humane ones. Couey took the life of an angel, a daughter, a beloved grand daughter because of his twisted desires and we are supposed to give a crap if the drugs don't kill him fast enough??? They stayed an execution today because some lawyer is now whining about LI. and long it takes some of these scumbags to die. Diaz in FL, had Hep C, his liver was shot and the drugs took longer to kick in. Who gave a crap if he gasped for air? He wasn't being murdered! He was being put to death because he was a murderer!!! Fla stopped using Sparky because some real fat guy Allan Davis died painfully in the chair. Some Canadian group was screaming that Florida murdered him! Never mind the fact he killed a pregnant women and her two young daughters. He pistol whipped the woman to death and shot the kids point blank in the back of their heads! I saw the pictures of him and I say, way to go FLA! He bled out a little bit due to high blood pressure and had burns on his head, who cares??? This group whined that he was "butchered" So if the debate over LI is gonna persist, bring back the chair!

[beaky]

Wind149
I can see your point ...why fuss about the scumbags...
I think if we lived in a different kind of society ..one where people like the military were in charge then things would certainly happen more like you say..

Unfortunately we live in a society where so called qualified people seem to be able to start a rollercoaster moving and they all have a vested interest in maintaining the momentum...

I think society feels better if it can totally justify its actions to itself...right now it has started to fret about justifying the DP ....It may be something to do with not feeling at risk as a nation...If a nation is at war and resources are limited the public don't spend time fretting about things like the DP...But in peacetime in a wealthy society people look inwards and want to cause change....What if we left the sentencing to the Police to do.... and do away with judiciary and lawyers altogether.

There is also the input from huge religious institutions who might have an interest in helping either pro or anti DP groups
...All the above is JMO

[beaky]

Amazing article Eurydice...

It highlights the notion that
We only know what we know..for now..

Tomorrow something that we have been told is a godsend ...a breakthrough..
...could be shown ...given time...to not really be the answer we thought it was...

Do we put our faith and trust in science too quickly...?

Trust me I'm a scientist/lawyer/psychiatrist...it must be true...for now.

[dobbylupin]

One of my friends used to work as a prison guard on death row at Texas State Prison many years ago. One day, he was on duty with another guard in the genearal population area of the prison, when an inmate, who was serving out a life sentence for rape and murder, using a makeshift blade, shanked my friend's co-worker in the back of the neck.

The man cannot work anymore. He is a quadriplegic. At least he is able to breathe unassisted. I suppose that is something to be grateful for.

The inmate who assaulted him was charged with attempted murder and had a few more years tacked onto his sentence. Big bloody deal, boo hoo for him. He'd already taken a life, another life didn't matter squat to him.

I have always believed in the death penalty when there was no doubt of guilt. Fortunately, the advent of DNA will soon ensure that the correct people are arrested/convicted and that the innocent will be spared.

We have had our own notorious murder cases here in Australia where the killers deserve the ultimate punishment. Unfortunately the death penalty in thic country was abolished around four decades ago which is a real shame.

[Chocoholic]

<snip>Fortunately, the advent of DNA will soon ensure that the correct people are arrested/convicted and that the innocent will be spared.
<snip>.

"I am my own twin" shows that some people have dominant and regressive DNA. This throws the entire evidence of the "advent of DNA" some serious doubt.

It was shown that one woman couldn't possibly be the mother of her own children. Finally the father provided sperm, the mother was artificially inseminated and doctors proved that she was indeed the mother of all three, but the children were linked closer to the mother's brother than to herself (according to modern DNA testing methods).

Some Chimera children are born with a testicle on one side and half a vagina on the other side. The Discovery show also showed an infant born with an incredible checker pattern on it's tummy. Left lower portion light colored brown square, opposite dark brown square... etc, up to his neck.

As long as science isn't 100% exact we shouldn't be relying on it to sentence people to death.

[Joe Public]

"I am my own twin" shows that some people have dominant and regressive DNA. This throws the entire evidence of the "advent of DNA" some serious doubt.

It was shown that one woman couldn't possibly be the mother of her own children. Finally the father provided sperm, the mother was artificially inseminated and doctors proved that she was indeed the mother of all three, but the children were linked closer to the mother's brother than to herself (according to modern DNA testing methods).

Some Chimera children are born with a testicle on one side and half a vagina on the other side. The Discovery show also showed an infant born with an incredible checker pattern on it's tummy. Left lower portion light colored brown square, opposite dark brown square... etc, up to his neck.

As long as science isn't 100% exact we shouldn't be relying on it to sentence people to death.

But, the requirement by law state "beyond a reasonable doubt" and not "100% certain". This is a BIG difference. The law and therefore courts are fallible because human emotion is involved.

But if I have a scientific test that says this guy's blood matches semen on a rape/murder victim to 99.9999%, then that's good enough for me to vote yes to putting him to death. The test may not be 100% but they certainly are close enough to reduce the chances of an innocent person being convicted down to miniscule numbers (if any at all). And that's good enough for me.

All my own opinion,

[Chocoholic]

But, the requirement by law state "beyond a reasonable doubt" and not "100% certain". This is a BIG difference. The law and therefore courts are fallible because human emotion is involved.

But if I have a scientific test that says this guy's blood matches semen on a rape/murder victim to 99.9999%, then that's good enough for me to vote yes to putting him to death. The test may not be 100% but they certainly are close enough to reduce the chances of an innocent person being convicted down to miniscule numbers (if any at all). And that's good enough for me.

All my own opinion,
Although I respect your point of view, I cannot agree with it. Death is a little too final.

[Joe Public]

Although I respect your point of view, I cannot agree with it. Death is a little too final.

And I respect your pov as well. But I think that the victims fate is a little too final not to at least consider the DP.

[Chocoholic]

And I respect your pov as well. But I think that the victims fate is a little too final not to at least consider the DP.

And therefore we are afforded the right to mistakenly execute a possibly innocent person?

IMO it still reflects antiquated laws, not much different than stoning or witch hunts and cutting off limbs.

The act isn't undone. A victim remains a victim.

[Joe Public]

And therefore we are afforded the right to mistakenly execute a possibly innocent person?

IMO it still reflects antiquated laws, not much different than stoning or witch hunts and cutting off limbs.

The act isn't undone. A victim remains a victim.

But what makes the killer so much better that he gets to live while his victims have to pay the ultimate price?

He/she gets to live years longer than their victims anyway because of trials and appeals. And we as taxpayers are also victims because we have to pay their food, housing, medical and dental bills. And lord knows what else.

Is that really fair to the victims and their families?

[Chocoholic]

But what makes the killer so much better that he gets to live while his victims have to pay the ultimate price?

He/she gets to live years longer than their victims anyway because of trials and appeals. And we as taxpayers are also victims because we have to pay their food, housing, medical and dental bills. And lord knows what else.

Is that really fair to the victims and their families?

The DP costs a lot more than life in prison, and aside from that, what's wrong with making them work for a living?

[Wichita]

One must be careful what he allows, lest he become ambivalent to evil in his house, and become a victim of his intellect. (such as Nietzsche)

I realize that the "witch trials" are merely symbolic of what some consider the epitome of self righteousness, but it is a poor metaphor. There is simply no reasonable comparison between "trials" held under a monarchy at a time in history when a constitution was unheard of, and a system of presumed innocence with the benefit of the doubt built in. While thousands of convicts have been freed from prison, showing errors in the whole system, one must wonder how many more guilty have never spent a day in prison. Surely, if thousands have been released, their innocent victims must number in the hundreds of thousands. Are we guilty, as a society, for perpetuating this evil on our neighbors? "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." ( Edmund Burke, who unlike Nietzsche, never lost his mind.)

I agree there is a reason why much of the civilized world has abolished the DP, but it has little to do with civilization. It has to do with an elitist ideal. That ideal is best explained by the proposition that most of us are too ignorant to govern ourselves, and we need the enlightened to protect us from our ourselves. Right......

If, according to your thesis, vengeance is the motive for the DP, is vengeance wrong? Why is it wrong, and is it possible or feasible to "rehabilitate" the vengeful?

[Chocoholic]

One must be careful what he allows, lest he become ambivalent to evil in his house, and become a victim of his intellect. (such as Nietzsche)

I realize that the "witch trials" are merely symbolic of what some consider the epitome of self righteousness, but it is a poor metaphor. There is simply no reasonable comparison between "trials" held under a monarchy at a time in history when a constitution was unheard of, and a system of presumed innocence with the benefit of the doubt built in. While thousands of convicts have been freed from prison, showing errors in the whole system, one must wonder how many more guilty have never spent a day in prison. Surely, if thousands have been released, their innocent victims must number in the hundreds of thousands. Are we guilty, as a society, for perpetuating this evil on our neighbors? "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." ( Edmund Burke, who unlike Nietzsche, never lost his mind.)

I agree there is a reason why much of the civilized world has abolished the DP, but it has little to do with civilization. It has to do with an elitist ideal. That ideal is best explained by the proposition that most of us are too ignorant to govern ourselves, and we need the enlightened to protect us from our ourselves. Right......

If, according to your thesis, vengeance is the motive for the DP, is vengeance wrong? Why is it wrong, and is it possible or feasible to "rehabilitate" the vengeful?

IMO vengeance is wrong. It presumes that we as people have a right to make life and death decisions over others. If the DP is legal, which rarely has the agreement of the person being killed, euthanasia, suicide and abortion should be legal also.

If the crimes are so heinous that it's unlikely that rehabilitation is possible I vote for having the convict stay in prison and work for a living. What's wrong with making clothespins and license plates? How about cleaning up some of the disaster areas such as New Orleans or areas hit by tornadoes? I see nothing wrong with that.

[Wichita]

Abortion, within the legal boundaries, and unassisted suicide are legal. Euthanasia is the next hurdle on the horizon for the elitists.

If the death penalty is for revenge, then so is LWOP. If the LWOP sentence was adjudicated simply to avoid the moral conclusion that the DP wrong, then LWOP is not handed down with the proper motive, which makes it an injustice.

The argument then, is that death is irreversible while LWOP is less intrusive, and therefore less immoral. The lessor of 2 evils. It comes down then, to individual acceptance of the responsibility for the degree of immorality one can live with, although there is no personal accountability for a death sentence handed down by the court and carried out by the government.

[Joe Public]

IMO vengeance is wrong. It presumes that we as people have a right to make life and death decisions over others. If the DP is legal, which rarely has the agreement of the person being killed, euthanasia, suicide and abortion should be legal also.

If the crimes are so heinous that it's unlikely that rehabilitation is possible I vote for having the convict stay in prison and work for a living. What's wrong with making clothespins and license plates? How about cleaning up some of the disaster areas such as New Orleans or areas hit by tornadoes? I see nothing wrong with that.

Do you really want viscous killers, ones that have brutally killed one or more people riding around free in a bus going somewhere that they out number the guards with little or no restraints cleaning up disaster area? These are people with nothing left to lose. They will stick a knife, shank, or pitch fork in you, me, and the guards and won't give a moments thought. There is no way in he11 that I want them riding anywhere in anything other than a pine box. And the DP doesn't cost us taxpayers near the amount that LWOP will cost us. Sorry, the numbers just don't add up.

[Chocoholic]

Do you really want viscous killers, ones that have brutally killed one or more people riding around free in a bus going somewhere that they out number the guards with little or no restraints cleaning up disaster area? These are people with nothing left to lose. They will stick a knife, shank, or pitch fork in you, me, and the guards and won't give a moments thought. There is no way in he11 that I want them riding anywhere in anything other than a pine box. And the DP doesn't cost us taxpayers near the amount that LWOP will cost us. Sorry, the numbers just don't add up.

Who said anything about lack of restraints?

I'm sorry but the numbers repeatedly show that the DP cases run well into the multiple millions. LWOP doesn't. So you don't want them riding a bus... what's wrong with making clothespins or license plates?

[slynn14]

But what makes the killer so much better that he gets to live while his victims have to pay the ultimate price?

He/she gets to live years longer than their victims anyway because of trials and appeals. And we as taxpayers are also victims because we have to pay their food, housing, medical and dental bills. And lord knows what else.

Is that really fair to the victims and their families?



I agree, Ross was on death row for 16 years and he I remember watching some news show years ago about him in his cell on death row and he had books and liked to write, etc, it's like he was gloating because he was living like a so called king on death row and our money is watching this serail killer live better than us. What the hell is wrong with this picture? and yes it does effect the victims families, if our judical sytem wasn't so messed up Ross should have been executed years earlier then he did.

[Charon]

IMO vengeance is wrong. It presumes that we as people have a right to make life and death decisions over others. If the DP is legal, which rarely has the agreement of the person being killed, euthanasia, suicide and abortion should be legal also.

If the crimes are so heinous that it's unlikely that rehabilitation is possible I vote for having the convict stay in prison and work for a living. What's wrong with making clothespins and license plates? How about cleaning up some of the disaster areas such as New Orleans or areas hit by tornadoes? I see nothing wrong with that.

I see EVERYTHING wrong with it. What you see on TV and what is reality is 2 different worlds. Any idea how fast a convict can dissapear in such an environment? Any idea how many lethal objects and weapons are lying around? Can't imagine it? Doesn't surprise me.

Who's going to pay for their transport to such areas? Oh, yeah. the victims! Who's paying for the extra guards to make sure they don't run? Uhm? Yes us victims. Do wake up.

[Wichita]

I agree that vengeance is wrong. If it is just one's opinion that the motive for the DP is for revenge, then it is subjective. It is subjective, because there is no empirical data to show that revenge is a consideration when the DP is ordered. If it is subjective, how can we obtain objective data to prove the opinion that revenge is the motive? I am having a hard time supporting the abolishment of the DP based on a subjective thesis that it is for revenge. My other question is: How can we educate the public that vengeance is wrong, and therefore remove revenge from a consideration during the penalty phase of trial, when there is no data to support the theory of revenge? I still reason that if revenge is a motive for the DP, it is also a motive for any other sentence. If that is true, then all sentences are unjust, according to the argument. It would stand to reason, then, that we should abolish prison altogether? I agree that I am being absurd, but if revenge is wrong for one penalty, then it's wrong for them all. My thesis is that if the DP is totally abolished, LWOP is not far behind, because the same argument will be forthcoming from the same people who disagree with the DP. Spain has already abolished LWOP. The maximum amount of time to be imposed in Spain is 40 years. Is Spain more civilized than 34 states in our union? Is it more civilized than the ones who still sentence to LWOP? Not in my opinion.

[accordn2me]

<snipped> If the DP is legal, which rarely has the agreement of the person being killed, euthanasia, suicide and abortion should be legal also.

<snipped>The death penalty is legal. So is abortion. You are right. Euthanasia and suicide should be "legal" as well.

[Chocoholic]

The death penalty is legal. So is abortion. You are right. Euthanasia and suicide should be "legal" as well.

But who has a moral and ethical right to say what is legal or not? From where I sit man has assumed that right.

[Joe Public]

I see EVERYTHING wrong with it. What you see on TV and what is reality is 2 different worlds. Any idea how fast a convict can dissapear in such an environment? Any idea how many lethal objects and weapons are lying around? Can't imagine it? Doesn't surprise me.

Who's going to pay for their transport to such areas? Oh, yeah. the victims! Who's paying for the extra guards to make sure they don't run? Uhm? Yes us victims. Do wake up.

ITA, these guys have PhD's in how to make weapons. I mean they can kill you with a toothbush, and any lose metal that they can sharpen. In a disater area how much metal is just laying around.

And to answer Choc's question about the clothespins and such, there is a lot wrong with them making these items. The main reason is that they are alive and their victims are not. Their victims can't work while in the grave. Their victims can't see their family on Sundays and give them hugs and say how much they love and miss them. Once again Choc, what makes them so much better that they get to live and do all these things that their victims can not do? Please explain that to me because I just do get your logic.

[Joe Public]

But who has a moral and ethical right to say what is legal or not? From where I sit man has assumed that right.

Who else is going to if not man? God gave no comands on how to deal out JUSTICE in a situation like this. But at the sametime just because he didn't doesn't mean he didn't want us to do it. The lack of evidence is sometimes evidence. He did say to forgive, but forgiveness does not mean we can't punish the killer accordingly such as the DP. He gave us free will, the killers chose to kill and they must be punished in such a way that is fitting of the crime. We as humans have free will to determine what that punishment is.

[Wichita]

I'm not following the logic to the conclusion of the question. How are we to deal with wrong doing if we don't know what is wrong? Therefore, we, as a society or culture, must agree that certain behavior is outside the realm of "legal", and define what type of sanctions will be administered as a result of a proven accusation of wrongdoing.
If we, as human beings, don't have the "right" to determine the behavior we will accept, who does? If there is no law, how will we know if something is wrong? Incest, sodomy, rape, murder, theft, fraud, etc., are all examples of these behaviors that we, as a culture, have decided is not to be tolerated, sometimes punishing the behavior with the DP. If we don't have the right to have the DP, then we don't have the right to imprison either, under the theory that we have "assumed" that right. If we have assumed that right, from whom did we assume it? If from God, then you are denying His sovereign power to delegate that right to us. If not from God, then from one another, which would make your argument moot, because there is no higher authority than mankind. We all practice ethical or moral behavior, or not. If there is no higher authority, we obtained that power by osmosis, or perhaps evolution, from one another. I can't resolve the question to your satisfaction, because you don't believe we have the authority as individuals to cause the death of another. Neither do you believe that we have the authority as a corporate government to take life. Yet, those who also don't have that authority exercise that authority each time they commit a violation. It just never ends, this argument that we are not ethically or morally justified in punishing wrongful behavior is not viable. How can we resolve this dilemma?

[Chocoholic]

ITA, these guys have PhD's in how to make weapons. I mean they can kill you with a toothbush, and any lose metal that they can sharpen. In a disater area how much metal is just laying around.

And to answer Choc's question about the clothespins and such, there is a lot wrong with them making these items. The main reason is that they are alive and their victims are not. Their victims can't work while in the grave. Their victims can't see their family on Sundays and give them hugs and say how much they love and miss them. Once again Choc, what makes them so much better that they get to live and do all these things that their victims can not do? Please explain that to me because I just do get your logic.

It doesn't make them better for letting them live. It is my belief that we as humans don't have the right to kill a person out of what I see as revenge. This makes us no better than the perpetrator.

[Chocoholic]

Who else is going to if not man? God gave no comands on how to deal out JUSTICE in a situation like this. But at the sametime just because he didn't doesn't mean he didn't want us to do it. The lack of evidence is sometimes evidence. He did say to forgive, but forgiveness does not mean we can't punish the killer accordingly such as the DP. He gave us free will, the killers chose to kill and they must be punished in such a way that is fitting of the crime. We as humans have free will to determine what that punishment is.
We were given free will. We have many other options open to us, other than killing another person, especially if there is even the remotest chance that person is innocent.

[Chocoholic]

I'm not following the logic to the conclusion of the question. How are we to deal with wrong doing if we don't know what is wrong? Therefore, we, as a society or culture, must agree that certain behavior is outside the realm of "legal", and define what type of sanctions will be administered as a result of a proven accusation of wrongdoing.
If we, as human beings, don't have the "right" to determine the behavior we will accept, who does? If there is no law, how will we know if something is wrong? Incest, sodomy, rape, murder, theft, fraud, etc., are all examples of these behaviors that we, as a culture, have decided is not to be tolerated, sometimes punishing the behavior with the DP. If we don't have the right to have the DP, then we don't have the right to imprison either, under the theory that we have "assumed" that right. If we have assumed that right, from whom did we assume it? If from God, then you are denying His sovereign power to delegate that right to us. If not from God, then from one another, which would make your argument moot, because there is no higher authority than mankind. We all practice ethical or moral behavior, or not. If there is no higher authority, we obtained that power by osmosis, or perhaps evolution, from one another. I can't resolve the question to your satisfaction, because you don't believe we have the authority as individuals to cause the death of another. Neither do you believe that we have the authority as a corporate government to take life. Yet, those who also don't have that authority exercise that authority each time they commit a violation. It just never ends, this argument that we are not ethically or morally justified in punishing wrongful behavior is not viable. How can we resolve this dilemma?

I don't think it's a dilemma. We will simply have to agree to disagree. I'm just very happy that there is no DP where I live.

[Joe Public]

It doesn't make them better for letting them live. It is my belief that we as humans don't have the right to kill a person out of what I see as revenge. This makes us no better than the perpetrator.

But, allowing these killers to live while their victims are dead put more value on their lives than that of their victims. What does that say to the families of the victims? If someone killed my daughter then let them live I would want to know what gives him the right to live while my little girl is dead by his hands. And justice doesn't equal revenge.

[Rob.]

I'm against the DP. Sometimes people who have not commited the said acts are convicted of them. So it would be very unfair if they were sentenced to death and it later turned out they were completely innocent.

[Chocoholic]

But, allowing these killers to live while their victims are dead put more value on their lives than that of their victims. What does that say to the families of the victims? If someone killed my daughter then let them live I would want to know what gives him the right to live while my little girl is dead by his hands. And justice doesn't equal revenge.
That would depend a great deal on the circumstances.

By killing the convict, which may or may not actually be guilty of a crime, it shows that there is no respect for human life at all.

[Wichita]

I was just looking for an argument that is substantiated by something other than a subjective opinion. You are right. There is no dilemma, just an agreement to disagree. But, wait....we've already been there, done that. :D

[Chocoholic]

I was just looking for an argument that is substantiated by something other than a subjective opinion. You are right. There is no dilemma, just an agreement to disagree. But, wait....we've already been there, done that. :D

Yup :D and opinions are always subjective.

[accordn2me]

That would depend a great deal on the circumstances.

By killing the convict, which may or may not actually be guilty of a crime, it shows that there is no respect for human life at all.What does it show when we kill the convict that is for sure guilty of heinously murdering innocent victims?

What does it show when we do not kill the convict that is for sure guilty of heinously murdering innocent victims?

[Joe Public]

What does it show when we kill the convict that is for sure guilty of heinously murdering innocent victims?
To me, the answer is simple. It shows we will not stand by while someone takes the life of another for no other reason than they can do it.

What does it show when we do not kill the convict that is for sure guilty of heinously murdering innocent victims?
I believe that not executing the same killer shows a lack of importance to the victims of the hideous crimes.
IMO. FWIW.

[Chocoholic]

What does it show when we kill the convict that is for sure guilty of heinously murdering innocent victims?

What does it show when we do not kill the convict that is for sure guilty of heinously murdering innocent victims?

1. It shows a society that isn't stuck in the middle ages and can forgive and look for rehabilitation instead of looking for revenge which doesn't bring the victim back.

2. As above.

What does the same society show when it's willing to execute people who may not be guilty of a heinous crime? What if it were your brother, your father, your mother, sister? Would you be as trigger happy if you knew that your family member hadn't committed a crime but was convicted anyway?

[lexcat]

I am for the DP. I know that there are debates now, even in Kentucky, where inmates are saying that lethal injection is cruel and unusual. I'm sorry, but these are murders and rapists that we are talking about. I think a needle in the arm is easy compared to what these people have done to others. I don't understand why so many rights are given to inmate anymore. :shrug:

[accordn2me]

1. It shows a society that isn't stuck in the middle ages and can forgive and look for rehabilitation instead of looking for revenge which doesn't bring the victim back.

2. As above.

What does the same society show when it's willing to execute people who may not be guilty of a heinous crime? What if it were your brother, your father, your mother, sister? Would you be as trigger happy if you knew that your family member hadn't committed a crime but was convicted anyway?Forgiveness and retribution don't go hand-in-hand. You can forgive and still seek retribution. Just because I want someone to pay for their crimes, doesn't mean I haven't or can't forgive them.

I would hate to see ANY innocent person executed. If said person was MY family member, I would do any and everything to save their life.....unless....I felt they deserved this fate for a different reason. For instance, we had a convict in Louisiana that was executed for a murder he probably did not commit. However, reading his rap sheet leaves me with the conclusion that had the state executed him for the first murder he was convicted...and undisputedly guilty of.....we wouldn't have had the issue of executing him for murder committed by one of his buddies.

[Chocoholic]

Forgiveness and retribution don't go hand-in-hand. You can forgive and still seek retribution. Just because I want someone to pay for their crimes, doesn't mean I haven't or can't forgive them.

I would hate to see ANY innocent person executed. If said person was MY family member, I would do any and everything to save their life.....unless....I felt they deserved this fate for a different reason. For instance, we had a convict in Louisiana that was executed for a murder he probably did not commit. However, reading his rap sheet leaves me with the conclusion that had the state executed him for the first murder he was convicted...and undisputedly guilty of.....we wouldn't have had the issue of executing him for murder committed by one of his buddies.

So it's alright then that he was executed for a murder he didn't commit, because of his rap sheet? WOW, takes a lot for me to be speechless, you managed, congratulations.

[Luke Davis]

I drop by every so often to read the interesting opinions. Rarely do I have anything to add, seems everything has been said. While I once voted for the DP, I can see problems in some cases. The moral grounds don't bother me as they do some of you. I am more concerned with equality and applying the law in an equitable way.

As I see it, the DP is not taking someone's life as much as it is shortening it. That is, everyone is going to die. The DP just sets a limit. In California since the DP was reinstated, more have died on death row from suicide than were executed.

But let's look at it a different way. Not shortening life but extending it! A good example might be Charles Manson, who some of you may be familiar with his case. He was convicted and sentenced to death but the law was found unconstitutional and he is eligible for parole.

Let's say he becomes ill and he needs a kidney transplant. Should the taxpayers of California pay for it or say it is God's will he dies? If humans don't have the right to end his life, by what right can they extend his life?

[accordn2me]

So it's alright then that he was executed for a murder he didn't commit, because of his rap sheet? WOW, takes a lot for me to be speechless, you managed, congratulations.You're not the first and probably not the last I'll render speechless with my extremist view on the DP.

Yes, it's alright that he was executed for a murder he didn't commit because he got off for a murder he should have been executed for. It balanced out. Some would call it karma.

[Wichita]

Great Post! The simple logic of the truth is in the question! :beer:

[Chocoholic]

You're not the first and probably not the last I'll render speechless with my extremist view on the DP.

Yes, it's alright that he was executed for a murder he didn't commit because he got off for a murder he should have been executed for. It balanced out. Some would call it karma.

Some seem to have the word Karma confused with revenge.

[accordn2me]

Some seem to have the word Karma confused with revenge.
Who? :shrug:

:no: not me!

[Chocoholic]

Who? :shrug:

:no: not me!

If you believe in Karma, I don't understand how you can incorporate it into your life or lives and agree with the DP

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/karma.html

[accordn2me]

If you believe in Karma, I don't understand how you can incorporate it into your life or lives and agree with the DP

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/karma.htmlDo you believe in karma? If you do, I don't understand how you can't see that the DP is karma.

[Chocoholic]

Do you believe in karma? If you do, I don't understand how you can't see that the DP is karma.

Perhaps if you read the link you might understand.

[lexcat]

If you were to look at it the other way around, lets say that someone raped and murdered someone in your family, would you want to see if he could be rehabilitated? would you want him paroled and back out on the streets? Or would you want to see him put to death?

[accordn2me]

Perhaps if you read the link you might understand.
I read most of it. Perhaps you could cut-n-paste some points that support your belief. I'll do the same.

[Chocoholic]

If you were to look at it the other way around, lets say that someone raped and murdered someone in your family, would you want to see if he could be rehabilitated? would you want him paroled and back out on the streets? Or would you want to see him put to death?

I never said that I would want the person paroled and back out on the street. I have stated that for heinous crimes I believe that a life sentence should be for life.

I don't need to go to "if" or hypotheses, the answer is no I don't want the rapist and murderer executed. I do want him in prison for life.

[Joe Public]

You're not the first and probably not the last I'll render speechless with my extremist view on the DP.

Yes, it's alright that he was executed for a murder he didn't commit because he got off for a murder he should have been executed for. It balanced out. Some would call it karma.

Hey, we can compare this to my childhood. When I was growing up I used to get in trouble ALL the time. I was constantly getting a spanking. And yes sometimes I didn't even do anything to earn that spanking. Or so I thought at the time. I never understood why my mother would tell after I protested the spanking that if I didn't do anything this time then the spanking was for something I did and got away with. I always thought that was a load of crap. Then I grew up and thought about how many spankings I earned and never got.

I realized that I had gotten away with murder(so to speak). Had I been spanked for everything I did I would still be standing up to this day. My point is if we/God didn't punish him then for what he did then, why not the next time do it for something he got away with.

I know that's not the law or even popular but I think that a killer/killers should be put to death one way or another. IMO, FWIW.

[Tap Dancer]

One must be careful when hunting monsters lest we become monsters ourselves.

I am against the death penalty. It is a barbaric practice of vengeance and nothing more. It is not a deterrent and too many have died while innocent (see: the West Memphis Three where Damien sits on death row without any sufficient evidence outside of metallica shirts and stephen king novels to this day). While hundreds have been freed from death row, showing the errors of the whole system, you have to wonder how many more have died who didn't get a chance to be freed. Surely if hundreds have been exonerated...the numbers who were not so fortunate must be much higher.

It's all much like the Salem witch trials. There is a reason most of the civilized world has abolished the death penalty. I think these days people want their vengeance, their witches. They're becoming the monsters they are destroying. That's all I see when I see families dancing and laughing after the execution of another human being who killed their own human being. Or, as it seems, probably had nothing to do with it at all as witnessed in many cases...

Very well said! I'm kind of wishy-washy, not really caring much either way. I think life in prison would be a better punishment for most people. Imagine being locked up until you die, having nothing to do to occupy your time and thoughts. My only problem is "soft prisons." I don't think people should be able to watch movies or have other luxuries there.

[lexcat]

So you think that for a heinous crime, instead of putting that person to death, they should be allowed to live in prison for the rest of their life with 3 meals a day, a weight room, computer room, library, basketball court, TV, a bed to sleep in, etc.? That person should be allowed to live in an environment better then our homeless vets on the street?

[Tap Dancer]

So you think that for a heinous crime, instead of putting that person to death, they should be allowed to live in prison for the rest of their life with 3 meals a day, a weight room, computer room, library, basketball court, TV, a bed to sleep in, etc.? That person should be allowed to live in an environment better then our homeless vets on the street?

I don't know if you're talking to me since you didn't quote anyone in your reply. But since I was the last person to post before you, I'll assume this is directed to me. I wrote and I quote: "I don't think people should be able to watch movies or have other luxuries there." So, no, I do not think those criminals should be given TV, libraries, computers, etc. I think they should sit in their cells alone until they die. I think it would drive me crazy.

[lexcat]

I don't know if you're talking to me since you didn't quote anyone in your reply. But since I was the last person to post before you, I'll assume this is directed to me. I wrote and I quote: "I don't think people should be able to watch movies or have other luxuries there." So, no, I do not think those criminals should be given TV, libraries, computers, etc. I think they should sit in their cells alone until they die. I think it would drive me crazy.
Sorry, it wasn't directed at you, i forgot to quote it. It was directed toward Chocoholic. I was trying to multi-task. :-) I agree with you completely when it comes to the "soft prisons"

[Tap Dancer]

Sorry, it wasn't directed at you, i forgot to quote it. It was directed toward Chocoholic. I was trying to multi-task. :-) I agree with you completely when it comes to the "soft prisons"

Cool. :)

I think about this subject sometimes and I don't know why I can't decide if I'm for it or against it. I see pros and cons of both sides. I don't feel bad for people who receive the death penalty as long as it's proven that they are guilty.

[lexcat]

Cool. :)

I think about this subject sometimes and I don't know why I can't decide if I'm for it or against it. I see pros and cons of both sides. I don't feel bad for people who receive the death penalty as long as it's proven that they are guilty.
I guess that is the main reason I am ok with the DP. I think if they have done something horrible they should not be allowed to live in such a soft place. Heck I don't have a weight room or even a computer at my house...and I haven't killed anyone! :shrug: Why should my tax dollars go to pay for them to have these things? It is a sad time when we have homeless people who are willing to commit crime, knowing they will go to prison, but knowing they will have a warm place to sleep and food to eat.

[Tap Dancer]

Some good points but unles you are in some jail in a third world country like Africa or South America, then the jail is a "paradise" for many murderers.
They get their toaster, their X box, their TV and newspapers. They also get served meals and also get paid wages.

I know. In a perfect world, there wouldn't be evil people. Which would cause someone to suffer more? Being put to death or stuck in prison until they die? It depends on the individual. If the person feels remorse, I think life in prison would be a better punishment because they'd have to suffer with their thoughts and memories until they die. A monster who doesn't care and would kill again if given the chance? Don't take a risk; destroy the monster.

[Tap Dancer]

This discussion has been good for me. Before yesterday I didn't know how I felt. And while I still see pros and cons, I'm now leaning more toward being for the death penalty. I just hate when someone sits on death row when there's not evidence that he or she is a murderer (example: Damien Echols).

I feel like this guy sometimes: :punch: LOL

[Joe Public]

If it was simply a LIFE sentence then Id be up for the life sentence in other words if the life sentence meant:

1. Its a LIFE sentence, not 15 not 20, not 35 years in jail...FOR LIFE... until the killer DIES. The only way for that murderer to get out of jail is in a coffin! No parole!!!

2. The jail must be JUST that... its a small, cold, cell, with not much moving space, poor lighting! No computers, no newspaper/magazines, no TV, prisoner gets fed twice a day with mere bread and water! No exercising in a gym! Can do push ups in the bloody cell, thats it!

3. The murderer must not have any access to the otuside world. Solicitors are banned from seeing the prisoner! No special favours, no ANYTHING!!

4. Prisoner gets NO wages and is forced to work for free, clean the cell every day, clean toilets under supervision and any other duties that may be expected from the prisoner.

5. The prisoner cant make money off his "story" his relatives and close friends can't make money of his story!


In sad reality, the above 5 points do not apply to 99% of the hard murderers.

Nor will they ever. There are too many people that just don't agree with the DP AND the LIFE term you are speaking of here. These conditions in a prison would cause the prison to be shuttered because these killers have more rights than we do and many more rights than their victims did. If you ask me a killer should feel greatful to live 20 minutes past his being given the DP. Much less life in prison.

We need to change the laws. If I went out a killed someone just to do it I would expect to get the DP and probably be P.O.ed if I didn't get it. I have lost a lot of respect for the CJ system and it's workings lately. I hope I can get it back.

[Lili007]

Thanks for replying. I welcome all opinions as being interesting and educational.

Just to add to what you have written, I agree 100% about the Aboriginals. And to be honest they get such a bad rap in prison that it is even dubious why they are so imprisioned as a people compared to the general population. There are problems with the A. community that are so rife it is like a haulocaust for many of them...drugs, alchohol, child rapings, no education due to parential neglect, poverty etc.

My post re. ds was more about lifers who have commited crimes to be in prison for their whole life. These are not usually A. but ordinary white people who have commited horrific acts of violence.

I was interested in how some of these prisinors are trying to commit suicide and much resourses are being spent to watch over them 24/7. It appears that the families of the victims want them alive to suffer. I would have thoughthe dp is the worst punishment, but to some life in prison is the worst.

I was interested in others opinions.

Hi Sharon,

I don't know which is worse. It's not a funny matter - just takes the edge off whether I should feel sorry for the prisoners sentenced to death or those sentenced to life WOP or neither or both.

I'm afraid I vascillate between them all. I don't hold with the DP, because, as I've said many times, it's just another repeat of a murder. On ther other hand, it sometimes means that that person can never commit another murder again. Weighing the two against each other, I would incline to the DP. But I still think that is so primitive and cruel and, most of all, deliberate. I would have hoped we'd have moved beyond that. But then again, I'd have hoped that people wouldn't be so cruel to each other, for nothing, or for so little.

JMO

[Wichita]

Choco, I hope this doesn't aggravate you too much, but who decides what's heinous, and whether they are guilty for sure? LWOP is a looooooong time for an innocent person to stay behind bars.....

[lexcat]

JACKSONVILLE, Florida (AP) -- The U.S. Supreme Court halted the execution of convicted child killer Mark Dean Schwab on Thursday, hours before he was scheduled to die.
Mark Dean Schwab is on death row for the murder of 11-year-old Junny Rios-Martinez.
The move by the high court was widely expected as it considers the appeals of two Kentucky inmates challenging the same lethal toxic three-drug combination used in Florida.
Schwab was sentenced to death for the murder of 11-year-old Junny Rios-Martinez.
In March 1991, the month Schwab was released from prison on a sexual assault sentence, a newspaper published a picture of Junny for winning a kite contest. Schwab gained the confidence of Junny's family, claiming he was with the newspaper and was writing an article on the boy.
On April 18, Schwab called Junny's school and pretended to be Junny's father and asked that the boy meet him after school. Two days later, Schwab called his aunt in Ohio and claimed that someone named Donald had made him kidnap and rape the boy.
He was later arrested and told police where he left Junny's body -- in a footlocker in a rural part of Brevard County.
Schwab's execution was to be the first in Florida since the botched execution of Angel Diaz on December 13. It took 34 minutes for Diaz to die -- twice as long as normal -- because the guards pushed the needles through his veins.

This is what i think is so wrong with our justice system, and this is why i am for the DP. This guy never should have been let out in March, and that little boy never would have died. As far as them saying that lethal injection is cruel...i thinks it's too easy.:flamemad:

[wind149]

The Supreme Court today halted the execution of Mark Schwab, a vicious child rapist and killer of a boy in Florida 16 years ago based on the blather from anti-death penalty terrorists that LI is cruel and inhumane. What is freaking inhumane is the parents of that poor child thought today, justice would be served when they watch this POS maggot puke breathe his last and instead, it might not happen now till summer of 2008! This is an outrage, this is a travesty of justice and these poor people now have to contend with this and that maggot is kicking back on his bunk laughing his sorry ***** off and flipping the bird at the family and the taxpayer's including this poor family have to keep this POS fed and housed for another year, 35 people advocating for him and not one soul including the SUPREME COURT are thinking about the agony that poor child went through at the hands of this rat puke. no instead it is all about him and how horrible it would be for him to go peacefully to sleep and if the drugs were to take awhile to kill him who gives a big crap??? Apparently more people than I thought and right now I am ashamed to be an American, I refuse to be part of a system that thinks more about the scum that rape and kill children and women than the victims and their pain. Instead this here court system apparently thinks his comfort level is more important than the boy or his family and how in hell do these freaks know how PAINFUL LI is? Has anyone came back from the dead to testify to that? WHO CARES HOW PAINFUL IT IS, THEY ARE BEING EXECUTED NOT AT A TEA PARTY!!! I hate those bleeding hearts, they teach their children that executions are murder instead of justice for the lives they took, they think these POS are just misunderstood, they can't help themselves, and yet? If one of these POS killed their kids, they would be the first at the window when they open the curtain or be one of those really disgusting tools that "forgive" the rat turd that raped and murdered their child because he is just misunderstood or they were abuse victims themselves, blah, blah, so therefore they should be given a break. Lots of people do not have ideal childhoods, mine despite my witch mother's efforts to keep up the appearance that we were the Cleever's, was not good, she abused me, but did I go on to harm children? And the addiction defense always makes me puke. Joseph Smith when he kidnaps, rapes, sodomizes, and then chokes to death Carlie Brucia claims he was so high on coke, he had no idea what he had done. Bullcrap! He knew what he did and along with him and that other POS babyraping maggot Couey should not be breathing just like this rat puke. So I am not a happy citizen right now and they keep this up I am moving to Canada.

[Chocoholic]

Choco, I hope this doesn't aggravate you too much, but who decides what's heinous, and whether they are guilty for sure? LWOP is a looooooong time for an innocent person to stay behind bars.....

In your system the jury decides what is heinous and whether the person is actually guilty or not. In other legal systems the persons making this decision might be a panel of professional judges who have studied this field for many years before they are even allowed to sit on the bench and make any decisions.

Yes LWOP is a long time. I didn't say that torture should be involved. I would hope that without making the prison stay a luxury resort, there are other opportunities to ensure that the person who was found guilty can be productive without being treated in a sub-human manner. Perhaps they can learn something. Perhaps they can't. At least it wouldn't be for lack of trying.

[Wichita]

Good argument....But; One of the basic tenets of your belief system is that no one man, or group of men, have the omniscient power of God to know what is in the heart. Consequently, any adjudication of guilt is therefore flawed, especially as it relates to the DP. Is your argument that we can justify prison for the innocent, but not death, based on the inherent fallibility of humanity? I can see where it would be easier to forgive oneself for false imprisonment than for euthanasia, but the immorality is the exact same. We are simply allowing our ethics to be compromised by degree. This is how we can relieve our vicarious responsibility, and consequently our guilt, by the degree of the punishment, or revenge that we allow as a culture.

[Chocoholic]

Good argument....But; One of the basic tenets of your belief system is that no one man, or group of men, have the omniscient power of God to know what is in the heart. Consequently, any adjudication of guilt is therefore flawed, especially as it relates to the DP. Is your argument that we can justify prison for the innocent, but not death, based on the inherent fallibility of humanity? I can see where it would be easier to forgive oneself for false imprisonment than for euthanasia, but the immorality is the exact same. We are simply allowing our ethics to be compromised by degree. This is how we can relieve our vicarious responsibility, and consequently our guilt, by the degree of the punishment, or revenge that we allow as a culture.


Euthenasia is done at the request of usually the patient. Execution not so much.

[Chocoholic]

Good argument....But; One of the basic tenets of your belief system is that no one man, or group of men, have the omniscient power of God to know what is in the heart. Consequently, any adjudication of guilt is therefore flawed, especially as it relates to the DP. Is your argument that we can justify prison for the innocent, but not death, based on the inherent fallibility of humanity? I can see where it would be easier to forgive oneself for false imprisonment than for euthanasia, but the immorality is the exact same. We are simply allowing our ethics to be compromised by degree. This is how we can relieve our vicarious responsibility, and consequently our guilt, by the degree of the punishment, or revenge that we allow as a culture.

I reread your post and it gave me more pause for thought. I do indeed believe that to kill somebody for a crime or crimes that may or may not have been committed is the ultimate act of "playing god". It's not for us to take a life as punishment/revenge. That would be making a judgment about whether a person is "good" or "evil" and no matter what, that decision isn't ours to make no matter how revolting the acts may have been.

I'm not well versed in the bible but isn't that part of the story about the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge? At least that's how I interpreted it. Some things are not for humans to judge.

[Wichita]

Euthanasia is "assisted suicide" by definition. My use of the term was wrong, but I was being sarcastic. I think a drug cocktail, and going to sleep is pretty civilized compared to the actions that cause the accused to become the condemned.

Your position is clear. I'm trying to get you to compare the logic for your stand to less stringent sentencing parameters. What I hear you say, time and again, is that we don't have the authority to take God's place. But, you are very law and order oriented, and want criminals held accountable, with up to LWOP if necessary. In my mind, if a man is convicted, though innocent, the moral and ethical principles violated to justify his incarceration are one and the same. In other words, if we don't have the authority to use the ultimate penalty of death, then we don't have the right to imprison them either. I know you won't agree, and I trying to get you to tell me the difference. It's not a trick question. If I my logic is flawed on this, I want to study it.

The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, if eaten, would have 'opened' the eyes so that the creation would become as gods, knowing the difference between good and evil. Therefore, by partaking, the ability to judge between the two was appropriated by men. The expulsion from the garden was not for partaking of the fruit, per se, but for disobedience of God's command not to partake. The inference is that sin is disobedience. Consequently, the law was later given, which was the "knowledge" of when disobedience occurs. Along with the disobedience, came the punishment, which is death. Since God is a trinity, and we are created in his image, we, too are a trinity. We are mind, body, spirit. Our body will die as a result of the curse of disobedience, sin. Our spirit, too, was sentenced to death because of sin. God instituted a blood sacrifice of a lamb, unspotted and without blemish, to be shed once per year for the atonement of disobedience.
Christ became the lamb, unspotted, and without blemish (sinless), and shed his blood for the sins of humanity, so that all who believe would not perish under the death penalty. This is our spiritual salvation, not physical salvation.
We are accountable to one another for the sins, or disobedience, we commit against one another. The right to determine the difference between good and evil came with the curse of sin, and therefore, we have the knowledge and the corporate right to punish, including with death. Of course, you disagree, but this is where I learned what I argue.

[Chocoholic]

But, IMO only the Supreme Creator can decide whether a soul is truly "good" or "evil" which is why it is forbidden to eat from the tree of knowledge.

Our bodies will die and our soul will have to learn more lessons in a new body until we learn the lessons the Supreme Creator has set out for us, or we have set out for ourselves. Not necessarily because of sin, but because we simply haven't learned all the lessons we need to learn. Just because we observe something as a sin doesn't necessarily make it so.

The discussion is indeed very interesting but I don't wish to go off topic. My hiney is already in a sling :D

[Wichita]

Mine must be in a sling, too then. But, I see now that you are referring to reincarnation. As such, the DP would be a violation of a religious principle that we would be interrupting God's plan for the condemned by putting him to death? Then we would become responsible under karma, and possibly be reincarnated as something less than what we were at physical death....

I think this is on topic, because we are trying to explain why we are pro or anti DP. Since our core beliefs are our only frame of reference, it seems relevant to me. But, I've been wrong before....

[Chocoholic]

Mine must be in a sling, too then. But, I see now that you are referring to reincarnation. As such, the DP would be a violation of a religious principle that we would be interrupting God's plan for the condemned by putting him to death? Then we would become responsible under karma, and possibly be reincarnated as something less than what we were at physical death....

I think this is on topic, because we are trying to explain why we are pro or anti DP. Since our core beliefs are our only frame of reference, it seems relevant to me. But, I've been wrong before....

Witchita you make for a valuable partner in a debate. I truly appreciate your input and have learned from you. My arrogant other half would deny that, but don't pay any attention to her.

IMO it would be part of our own destiny to execute another person. Not that I necessarily believe that the soul would come back as a lesser being, but that that soul would need to re-learn and continue to learn what wasn't learned in the current life.

"We" as people won't achieve a higher level of consciousness until we learn those lessons. All entirely MO.

Hope it makes sense.

If it is off topic feel free to PM me.

[Wichita]

All righty, then. Now, I understand your position. In order for you to change your mind and agree with my argument, it would be necessary for you to cast off your current core belief system, and embrace the concept of "paradise" or heaven. In paradise, the souls of the departed do not have a memory of any evil doings during their temporal existence. If that were the case, how could it be paradise? It would be just like here, knowing the difference between good and evil. Those souls would be in torment, remembering the past, and seeing a future that we who are still here, cannot. This same argument applies to me. I would have to change my core belief system, to embrace yours, for similar reasons.

[sarge204]

W. this is not meant just for you, I see some valid points, however, I've noticed some talk of reform and rehab for murderers. I've spoken to several killers in my line of work and have noticed something. Once the DP is applied, theres no more need for rehab. Amazing, huh?! Killers arekinda like child molesters, the only known cure is death.
Thanks for allowing me to vent for a while, didn't mean to disturb your discussion.

[Wichita]

Sarge, I hope you read enough of the rest of the thread to understand that I don't agree with Choholic's stand on the DP. I support the DP, and I have been trying to understand other people's lack of support. It has taken me a long time to get Choholic to tell me why she takes the stand she does. Now, I understand from a "spiritual" perspective. That's not to say I agree with her, it just allows me to know why. Her position is that the bible is no more "holy" than any other book or story handed down through the centuries, so that my justification is no more relevant than hers. In the end, I justify the DP as the right thing to do, and Chocoholic disagrees. So, I wasn't offended by your comments. Quite the contrary, actually. Thanks for your comments.

[Joe Public]

W. this is not meant just for you, I see some valid points, however, I've noticed some talk of reform and rehab for murderers. I've spoken to several killers in my line of work and have noticed something. Once the DP is applied, theres no more need for rehab. Amazing, huh?! Killers arekinda like child molesters, the only known cure is death.
Thanks for allowing me to vent for a while, didn't mean to disturb your discussion.

Sarge, there are many here that agree with the DP. I myself am very in favor of it. Maybe too much so as I would certainly apply it to all child molesters. Even first offenders. But there are a few out there who disagree with it. Choc is one of the first that I can say that I truly understand WHY her opinion is against it.

95% of the others try to say the bible teaches forgiveness, or the priest says it's wrong. I'm not as versed in the bible as Witchita so I leave that part to him. Some try to quote stats from studies.

That's my area. They can show me any study supporting their stance to end the DP. And I will show ten in support. It doesn't and will never end. The best we can hope for is not to change others minds, but to understand why their minds are set on the side of the debate that they are.

In the end we all must agree to disagree....:beer:

[Chocoholic]

I appreciate that you can understand my point of view, I wasn't looking for agreement or to change anybody's stance on the DP. I am as much opposed to any crime, if not more so than the next person.

Thanks for the great debate! :seeya:

[kjb19500]

KJB,

I promise I'm not trying to offend you or bait you, but you do realize that you'd be killing off the vast majority of our government officials, right?

lol and ALLMO,
R

I'm not offended, I love the free expression of ideas here with a minimum of personal attacks.

I am dead serious about the dp being used against public officials, and might even extend it to major white collar criminals. The Enron scandal, for example, ruined the lives of thousands of people; is 5-10 years in prison enough to pay for this? I don't want it thought that I minimize the effect of a murder on the victim and his family/survivors, but imo this is just as serious. Perhaps the dp used on some of these rich, talented men who have everything but want more would make the next creative bookkeeper a little more circumspect.

As far as the government servants, China seemed to be a little peeved at that Food & Drug Agency administrator and made short work of him. I wouldn't mind seeing it done here a few times.

[kjb19500]

But, allowing these killers to live while their victims are dead put more value on their lives than that of their victims. What does that say to the families of the victims? If someone killed my daughter then let them live I would want to know what gives him the right to live while my little girl is dead by his hands. And justice doesn't equal revenge.


If the perp was given LWP without any chance of ever being released and would definitely be spending the rest of his/her life behind bars, do you think the victim's family/survivors would feel that justice had been served? I sometimes think it's the way that these people are sentenced to "life in prison" then are set free to walk 10-20 years later while still in the prime of their life that hurts them most.

[Chocoholic]

I'm not offended, I love the free expression of ideas here with a minimum of personal attacks.

I am dead serious about the dp being used against public officials, and might even extend it to major white collar criminals. The Enron scandal, for example, ruined the lives of thousands of people; is 5-10 years in prison enough to pay for this? I don't want it thought that I minimize the effect of a murder on the victim and his family/survivors, but imo this is just as serious. Perhaps the dp used on some of these rich, talented men who have everything but want more would make the next creative bookkeeper a little more circumspect.

As far as the government servants, China seemed to be a little peeved at that Food & Drug Agency administrator and made short work of him. I wouldn't mind seeing it done here a few times.

You would love North Korea. If you make a call to South Korea on your cellphone, you can be shot right where you stand, no trial required.

[skybludeb]

Hello everyone, I'd thought I'd stir up some discussion of whether you are pro DP or anti DP. Choose one & tell why. If there is a personal reason you don't mind sharing, please post.
I am for the DP. I think child murders and child rapist should suffer and die!

[smitti]

I have never, ever, seen someone who received the death penalty and actually got to EXPERIENCE it to the bitter end, ever re-offend.:) I just wish justice was swifter. Texas has it about as right as it gets.

[Joe Public]

If the perp was given LWP without any chance of ever being released and would definitely be spending the rest of his/her life behind bars, do you think the victim's family/survivors would feel that justice had been served? I sometimes think it's the way that these people are sentenced to "life in prison" then are set free to walk 10-20 years later while still in the prime of their life that hurts them most.

No matter how you look at it the killers life is given a higher priority than the victims life. Because he get so many appeals, food, tv, even work and earn money. When does the victims get to do these things? NEVER!!! The only complete comfort for the family of the victim is for the killer to be executed after the jury finds them guilty. Since that will never happen then we must use the DP as often as possible to show that the killers life doesn't have anymore meaning than the victims!! FWIW.

[Buzz]

i feel that in some cases there can be only one answer, so in that respect iam for the dp,









:patriot: anyone do one of these flags in the st george ?

[AlsoKnownAs]

I have to agree with Wichita & Joe Public. Life is a gift. I joke that where cruelty is involved Skin, Salt, Repeat! One appendage at a time, starting with their removal from the gene pool. I would rather be DP than LWPOP. I also believe life in prison is taking of a life. There are horrific bad animals out there. They will do more harm if given the chance. DP can give victims families some closure. Life by it's very nature is terminal. If lethal injection is so 'cruel' then how about giving them oxygen free air. AKA

[Bluefox]

We don't have DP in Britain, and the politicians won't allow us to vote on it, because they know the public would vote to bring it back. I for one back the DP and i make no apologies for it.

[Joe Public]

I have to agree with Wichita & Joe Public. Life is a gift. I joke that where cruelty is involved Skin, Salt, Repeat! One appendage at a time, starting with their removal from the gene pool. I would rather be DP than LWPOP. I also believe life in prison is taking of a life. There are horrific bad animals out there. They will do more harm if given the chance. DP can give victims families some closure. Life by it's very nature is terminal. If lethal injection is so 'cruel' then how about giving them oxygen free air. AKA

We don't have DP in Britain, and the politicians won't allow us to vote on it, because they know the public would vote to bring it back. I for one back the DP and i make no apologies for it.

Amen!!!:beer:

[Chocoholic]

I have to agree with Wichita & Joe Public. Life is a gift. I joke that where cruelty is involved Skin, Salt, Repeat! One appendage at a time, starting with their removal from the gene pool. I would rather be DP than LWPOP. I also believe life in prison is taking of a life. There are horrific bad animals out there. They will do more harm if given the chance. DP can give victims families some closure. Life by it's very nature is terminal. If lethal injection is so 'cruel' then how about giving them oxygen free air. AKA

Skin, Salt, Repeat? How does this attitude make a person any different from the likes of the Hannibal Lecter types? It gave pleasure to both types of people.

It's this exact attitude of revenge that I find horrific, immoral and unethical.

Hitler perfected the "art" of giving people who he thought were inferior and not up to his standards "oxygen free air".

[Wichita]

Hitler didn't hold any trials, and offer the opportunity to provide a defense. Neither did Stalin, or Lennin, or many others who have slaughtered millions. The difference here is that these convicts have been through a trial, appeals, etc. Now, I understand what AKA was saying. It would serve the guilty right if they were to be skinned, salted, etc., but our system will not allow it, for the very reasons you illustrated. Lethal injection is a far cry from Hitler's gas chambers.

As far as revenge is concerned, it's just a matter of degrees. If the motive for the DP is solely for vengeance on the part of the state, why wouldn't the state administer the ultimate vengeance on each conviction for murder? I argue that if it is vengeful to put them to death, it is also vengeful to imprison them. If revenge is wrong, then we can't incarcerate them either. Here's why: If I caught a man raping my wife or daughter, and instead of turning him in, I locked him in a secret place to mete out my own, personal justice, it would be for revenge.

I would be guilty of false imprisonment, and a become a law violator. My actions would be for revenge, even though I didn't kill him.
If I simply controlled him until police arrived, and he was ultimately sent to prison, and I jumped up and down in gleeful celebration at his life sentence, I would still be vengeful. Which one is the most correct, or conversely, the most immoral? There simply is no way to remove the concept of vengeance from the concept of justice handed down after due process of law. It doesn't matter whether it's for 5 years, or death. Someone is going to be happy at the conviction and consequent punishment.

[Chocoholic]

Hitler didn't hold any trials, and offer the opportunity to provide a defense. Neither did Stalin, or Lennin, or many others who have slaughtered millions. The difference here is that these convicts have been through a trial, appeals, etc. Now, I understand what AKA was saying. It would serve the guilty right if they were to be skinned, salted, etc., but our system will not allow it, for the very reasons you illustrated. Lethal injection is a far cry from Hitler's gas chambers.

As far as revenge is concerned, it's just a matter of degrees. If the motive for the DP is solely for vengeance on the part of the state, why wouldn't the state administer the ultimate vengeance on each conviction for murder? I argue that if it is vengeful to put them to death, it is also vengeful to imprison them. If revenge is wrong, then we can't incarcerate them either. Here's why: If I caught a man raping my wife or daughter, and instead of turning him in, I locked him in a secret place to mete out my own, personal justice, it would be for revenge.

I would be guilty of false imprisonment, and a become a law violator. My actions would be for revenge, even though I didn't kill him.
If I simply controlled him until police arrived, and he was ultimately sent to prison, and I jumped up and down in gleeful celebration at his life sentence, I would still be vengeful. Which one is the most correct, or conversely, the most immoral? There simply is no way to remove the concept of vengeance from the concept of justice handed down after due process of law. It doesn't matter whether it's for 5 years, or death. Someone is going to be happy at the conviction and consequent punishment.

Re Hitler:

http://www.channel3000.com/news/14600655/detail.html

As to the rest, I personally cannot agree to the revenge/vengeance and being happy about punishment whether or or not that results in death.

[Wichita]

That is my point, Choc. I know how strongly you feel about the vengeance emotion. I'm simply pointing out that since vengeance is apropos for an argument against the DP, it is for other sentences as well. Consequently, no penalty should be handed down for any crime, since vengeance "might" be a motive of any of the survivors, or even citizens at large? I think that would lead to total anarchy. By degrees, then, all of us compromise our principles for the greater good of all of society by allowing or disallowing certain sanctions. I disagree with parole, but it is still part of the system. I think pedophiles ought never to be released from prison if they didn't kill their victims. If they did, they should be executed. Not for revenge, not for deterrence, but for the concept of justice, and the prevention of crime. If the parent of a molested, murdered child takes some pleasure in the death of the killer, should that nullify the DP? In your opinion, yes. In mine, no. But, we are no more a Hitler than you who disagree are a Dalai Lama, or the Pope, because of the difference of opinion.

[Wichita]

REF: http://www.chanel3000.com/news/14600655/detail.html

Give me a break, Choc. Okay, so Hitler held a "trial" for this poor woman. Surely, you aren't suggesting that our system of justice, indeed our government, is similar to Nazi Germany 70 years ago, just because we use the DP? : )

[Robyn]

As for the death penalty, in my opinion I feel it is wrong. We all know that with new DNA testing that some prisoners have been released from death row after a new technique was discovered that cleared them.

I rather have the people on death row live than kill an innocent person that was wrongly convicted. I guess I am saying the old saying.... "two wrongs don't make a right". The only thing I know that makes a "right" is a "left-left-left". :)

[Joe Public]

As for the death penalty, in my opinion I feel it is wrong. We all know that with new DNA testing that some prisoners have been released from death row after a new technique was discovered that cleared them.

I rather have the people on death row live than kill an innocent person that was wrongly convicted. I guess I am saying the old saying.... "two wrongs don't make a right". The only thing I know that makes a "right" is a "left-left-left". :)

I understand your statement, but is putting the life of a killer/convicted person above that of the victims the right thing to do? I mean the victims don't get a say in what happens. They don't get to say "Yeah, that's the guy that killed me!!"

Allowing them to sit in prison and earn money, watch tv, earn a degree is doing nothing but telling the family that his/her life is more important than the life that was taken. That to me would be a wrong done to the victim and there family. If we can't punish the ultimate crime with the ultimate punishment then why punish anyone at all?

[Chocoholic]

REF: http://www.chanel3000.com/news/14600655/detail.html

Give me a break, Choc. Okay, so Hitler held a "trial" for this poor woman. Surely, you aren't suggesting that our system of justice, indeed our government, is similar to Nazi Germany 70 years ago, just because we use the DP? : )


I didn't suggest that the US justice system is similar to that of Nazi Germany. I countered your statement of Hitler not holding any trials. There are always more points of view to any issue than just one or even two. There are as many as there are people viewing or considering the issue, all having their own POV and input.

[Chocoholic]

That is my point, Choc. I know how strongly you feel about the vengeance emotion. I'm simply pointing out that since vengeance is apropos for an argument against the DP, it is for other sentences as well. Consequently, no penalty should be handed down for any crime, since vengeance "might" be a motive of any of the survivors, or even citizens at large? I think that would lead to total anarchy. By degrees, then, all of us compromise our principles for the greater good of all of society by allowing or disallowing certain sanctions. I disagree with parole, but it is still part of the system. I think pedophiles ought never to be released from prison if they didn't kill their victims. If they did, they should be executed. Not for revenge, not for deterrence, but for the concept of justice, and the prevention of crime. If the parent of a molested, murdered child takes some pleasure in the death of the killer, should that nullify the DP? In your opinion, yes. In mine, no. But, we are no more a Hitler than you who disagree are a Dalai Lama, or the Pope, because of the difference of opinion.

I feel that during the time of imprisonment all should be done to assist the prisoner with rehabilitation. I won't suggest that this is possible in all cases, but I believe it shows greater kindness and forgiveness which is what God supposedly teaches us, than the DP.

[Joe Public]

I feel that during the time of imprisonment all should be done to assist the prisoner with rehabilitation. I won't suggest that this is possible in all cases, but I believe it shows greater kindness and forgiveness which is what God supposedly teaches us, than the DP.

How about the victim? What do we do for them to show greater kindness? How about we let their killer better him/herself in prison by earning a Ph D. Or maybe let them write a book about "Life in Prison" since they can't profit from the crime story.

Do we tell the family we are a kinder gentler nation that puts the life first. Everyone is so concerned for the killers rights. What rights does the victim have? How about instead of a slap on the hand (like we do now) we put them in timeout instead? Would that make us a better, kinder, more civilized world? I think not, :no: that's handing the world to the ones that don't deserve it. Like handing a drunk keys to your car. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Family Snapshot]

On this topic there no statistic, no study, no biblical passage that proves which side is right. There can never be a truly logical debate about the death penalty because it can only be settled in the heart and mind of each individual. I respect both sides, but I don't think it is possible for any argument to change my feelings on this subject.

I consider myself to be a kind, good, and gentle person and I still strongly support the death penalty. I don't believe that it is a deterrent or that it makes the world safer in some way. It comes down to an atavistic urge -- revenge, pay-back, whatever you want to term it. Deep in my marrow, I want people who cause suffering to suffer in equal or greater portion. It isn't glamorous and definitely not noble, but it's undeniable. Regardless of circumstances every one of us is graced with free will. I don't believe that there are compulsions that over-ride free will and eliminate our responsibility for our behavior. Bad or good there are consequences for every action we take.

The ultimate consequence for murders, serial rapists, child molesters and the like would be to leave them to mob justice, just turn them over to the people who have lost because of their actions. Fortunately, my evolved self knows that this would probably plunge us into some kind of blood-frenzied, witch-hunting anarchy. So, I view the death penalty as a civilized alternative. (I know it's bizarre that one can call killing another person civilized under any circumstances, but remember this isn't a logical discussion.)

[Chocoholic]

How about the victim? What do we do for them to show greater kindness? How about we let their killer better him/herself in prison by earning a Ph D. Or maybe let them write a book about "Life in Prison" since they can't profit from the crime story.

Do we tell the family we are a kinder gentler nation that puts the life first. Everyone is so concerned for the killers rights. What rights does the victim have? How about instead of a slap on the hand (like we do now) we put them in timeout instead? Would that make us a better, kinder, more civilized world? I think not, :no: that's handing the world to the ones that don't deserve it. Like handing a drunk keys to your car. It just doesn't make any sense.

It appears that you believe that I feel that we should be soft on criminals. I have never stated any such thing. If you read my posts carefully you will read quite the opposite.

I stated that based on moral and ethical beliefs I am against the death penalty. Life imprisonment isn't going to bring any victim back from where they were before, neither will killing the (possibly innocent) convict.

[Joe Public]

It appears that you believe that I feel that we should be soft on criminals. I have never stated any such thing. If you read my posts carefully you will read quite the opposite.

I stated that based on moral and ethical beliefs I am against the death penalty. Life imprisonment isn't going to bring any victim back from where they were before, neither will killing the (possibly innocent) convict.

No, but it brings justice and closure to the victims family. Which lost a (certain) innocent person.

[Chocoholic]

No, but it brings justice and closure to the victims family. Which lost a (certain) innocent person.

I personally disagree. It just makes for more deaths which remains tragic, whether the person is a criminal or not.

[WarmNCozy]

I personally disagree. It just makes for more deaths which remains tragic, whether the person is a criminal or not.

The victim is not alive, eating three squares a day, watching TV, using computers, and the system to get an education. For the victim, life is over! I believe in an eye for an eye when it comes to murder!

And above all, why should my tax dollars give those who kill a safe and comfortable life!

[Joe Public]

The victim is not alive, eating three squares a day, watching TV, using computers, and the system to get an education. For the victim, life is over! I believe in an eye for an eye when it comes to murder!

And above all, why should my tax dollars give those who kill a safe and comfortable life!

All I can say is Amen!!!!!!!

[Chocoholic]

The victim is not alive, eating three squares a day, watching TV, using computers, and the system to get an education. For the victim, life is over! I believe in an eye for an eye when it comes to murder!

And above all, why should my tax dollars give those who kill a safe and comfortable life!

From what I have read of US prisons life is hardly safe and comfortable. Rape is an ever present danger, prisoners are killed on a fairly regular basis, and it's hardly unheard of that riots break out.

Three squares makes it sound as though they get steak and eggs for breakfast. Try it out for a week. Teevee? Perhaps, in some sections, but are teevees available in all cells with the channels they wish to watch.

Please don't make it sound like home sweet home when you know it isn't. If it were that comfy prisoners wouldn't try to escape.

The money wasted on appeals for a DP sentence often reaches into the multi-millions (links have been posted). Is it a matter of economics or vengeance?

[Joe Public]

From what I have read of US prisons life is hardly safe and comfortable. Rape is an ever present danger, prisoners are killed on a fairly regular basis, and it's hardly unheard of that riots break out.

Three squares makes it sound as though they get steak and eggs for breakfast. Try it out for a week. Teevee? Perhaps, in some sections, but are teevees available in all cells with the channels they wish to watch.

Please don't make it sound like home sweet home when you know it isn't. If it were that comfy prisoners wouldn't try to escape.

The money wasted on appeals for a DP sentence often reaches into the multi-millions (links have been posted). Is it a matter of economics or vengeance?

Everyone is screaming about the convicts rights. I don't give a damn about his rights. He/She killed an innocent person. Plain and simple. No where near as many people care about the victim. THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD!!!!!!!! :cuss: Why is no one rallying for them? :shrug: Because their are no headlines in it for them for the most part.

[Chocoholic]

Everyone is screaming about the convicts rights. I don't give a damn about his rights. He/She killed an innocent person. Plain and simple. No where near as many people care about the victim. THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD!!!!!!!! :cuss: Why is no one rallying for them? :shrug: Because their are no headlines in it for them for the most part.

I don't know who you mean by everyone, obviously it isn't you.

The issue I have is that people have been wrongly convicted and those people in turn become victims. It is morally and ethically wrong to kill a person. It is also against most nation's laws. Except when the law states that you can kill a person, even if wrongfully convicted.

If it were your brother or sister, mother or father, child, aunt, uncle who was wrongfully convicted and about to be executed, would you scream as loudly about victim's rights or would you prefer that the legal system better address the underlying issues?

A dead, wrongly convicted killer makes for 2 victims, not one.

[Therese]

The death penalty was never meant to be a deterrent. The death penalty is nothing more than JUSTICE. Innocent people die every day--they die in drive by shootings, they die in gas station robberies that go bad, they die in car accidents by drunk drivers, they die from disease and illness, and on and on the list goes. We can never justify killing an innocent person. But it happens all the time--not always due to the death penalty. I don't have the answers for some of these questions, but I do know one thing: we can't eliminate the ultimate punishment just because some people on death row might be innocent. As I said, lots of innocent people die every day. That may sound cruel and unfeeling, but I think about all those 3,000 innocent souls who went to their death in a most horrifying way on September 11, 2001 and I have no problem with the death penalty.

How do you propose we determine whether a person is innocent or guilty? That's what we have courts and jurys for. We have become a nation of liars. No one tells the truth anymore--and we lie about things that we don't even have to lie about!!! No one can trust anyone anymore! Even polygraph tests aren't 100% sure. So, what's your suggestion? Are we supposed to can all these repeat offenders in powder keg-houses so that when they get out (and many will without the DP) they have a doctorate in terrorizm??? How stupid!

~ Tessye

[intrigued]

Prison is hardly a rough place for criminals. The only element of their lives that they lack is the freedom to come and go as they please. I am definitely pro death penalty. So much so, that I once inquired as to how I could volunteer to be a member of the execution team. More guilty go free than innocent convicted!

[Chocoholic]

Prison is hardly a rough place for criminals. The only element of their lives that they lack is the freedom to come and go as they please. I am definitely pro death penalty. So much so, that I once inquired as to how I could volunteer to be a member of the execution team. More guilty go free than innocent convicted!

How much time have you spent in a prison? Through my studies I have found that being in a medium to high security prison is a nasty place. There is no privacy and unless you prefer to go to the bathroom in public, it would suit you. Ask any american how precious the right to privacy is.

Rape and other forms of violence are rampant in prisons.

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5254027,00.jpg

Drug use is extensive. Often enough we hear of lock downs of a prison. You think it's because they were have a good old party?

If prison wasn't hard on prisoners why would they wish to break out? If prison wasn't hard on prisoners why don't they come out rehabilitated instead of becoming a more hardened prisoner than when they went in?

Either way, this thread isn't about whether or not some innocent people may be convicted of a crime they didn't commit compared to the many who get off nearly scott free. This is about the death penalty. If an innocent person is convicted of a heinous crime and is convicted of it, the people who back the DP, including the state's constituents and the jury and the executioner are as guilty of murder as the person who committed the crime of murder.

That's just my opinion.

[intrigued]

I worked in a prison for 8 years. Believe me when I say that prisons are not what people think they are. I live in Colorado and Colorado has one of the most progressive prison systems. The shock value of your pics of weapons was wasted on me. I witenssed the violence first hand. However, you must be made aware of the facts. Most violence that occurs in prisons is gang related. Some would say that gang members are reaping what they sow. The second largest group of individuals involved in institutional violence are inmates in for certain crimes, like pedophilia or sexual assault on a child. Once again, Karma has a way of smacking people in the face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FYI............... as a taxpayer, you will absorb the costs for all medical, dental, and psychological treatment of the incarcerated individual who will sit for years on death row because of the long, drawn out appeals process. Not to mention the fact that we as taxpayers also pay for the legal processes involved in appealing a death sentence.

Now I ask you this: If it were your mother, son, brother, parent, child, or family raped, tortured or brutalized by a sadistic animal, would you still think that a prison is too hard and violent for a criminal to spend the rest of their life???? Would you still feel that we need to hand out hugs to the man who rapes and tortures children, and then murders them??????


I stand by what I said. Fry the *******s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[maryhaze]

& i agree with you 100%!

[intrigued]

From what I have read of US prisons life is hardly safe and comfortable. Rape is an ever present danger, prisoners are killed on a fairly regular basis, and it's hardly unheard of that riots break out.

Three squares makes it sound as though they get steak and eggs for breakfast. Try it out for a week. Teevee? Perhaps, in some sections, but are teevees available in all cells with the channels they wish to watch.

Please don't make it sound like home sweet home when you know it isn't. If it were that comfy prisoners wouldn't try to escape.

The money wasted on appeals for a DP sentence often reaches into the multi-millions (links have been posted). Is it a matter of economics or vengeance?


You repeatedly say that you have gotten your knowledge from what you have read or studied. You have no first hand knowledge of the topic that you have formed such strong opinions about. Ignorance is bliss and you must be walking around smiling!

[Chocoholic]

I worked in a prison for 8 years. Believe me when I say that prisons are not what people think they are. I live in Colorado and Colorado has one of the most progressive prison systems. The shock value of your pics of weapons was wasted on me. I witenssed the violence first hand. However, you must be made aware of the facts. Most violence that occurs in prisons is gang related. Some would say that gang members are reaping what they sow. The second largest group of individuals involved in institutional violence are inmates in for certain crimes, like pedophilia or sexual assault on a child. Once again, Karma has a way of smacking people in the face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FYI............... as a taxpayer, you will absorb the costs for all medical, dental, and psychological treatment of the incarcerated individual who will sit for years on death row because of the long, drawn out appeals process. Not to mention the fact that we as taxpayers also pay for the legal processes involved in appealing a death sentence.

Now I ask you this: If it were your mother, son, brother, parent, child, or family raped, tortured or brutalized by a sadistic animal, would you still think that a prison is too hard and violent for a criminal to spend the rest of their life???? Would you still feel that we need to hand out hugs to the man who rapes and tortures children, and then murders them??????


I stand by what I said. Fry the *******s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never said "hand out hugs". I would appreciate it if you at least presented my posts accurately. If you had paid attention to my posts you would have read that I have no problem with hard labor. Regardless of the crime, I find it immoral and unethical to kill another person who may not be guilty of said crime, yes even if it were a family member who was the victim of a heinous crime would I feel that way.

You have absolutely no information about my personal history you wouldn't know if this had occurred within my family or circle of friends.

Allow me to present this though. If it were your brother, sister, father, mother, closest friend who was wrongfully convicted of heinous crimes and executed, would you be just as much in favor of the DP?

Please learn something about Karma. TIA.

[Chocoholic]

You repeatedly say that you have gotten your knowledge from what you have read or studied. You have no first hand knowledge of the topic that you have formed such strong opinions about. Ignorance is bliss and you must be walking around smiling!

I'm a little surprised that you have a record to my completed studies. Care to share where you found them? I have no first hand knowledge? LOL ok then, in your opinion, if you don't mind.

[intrigued]

You mention them over and over. You seem to be very upset over my expression of my opinion. I worked in a correctional facility. I know FIRSTHAND
the way that criminals think and behave. I worked with numerous death row inmates who only showed remorse once they realized that they were going to be executed. I work too hard for my money to have it go to pay for medical and dental care for people who, IN MY OPINION, have absolutely nothing coming to them.

How about this, you stick to your "studies" and opinions and I will continue making a difference.

BTW................Have you ever published any of your wonderful studies? Or do you just sit around reading true crime novels and take psychology courses from your local community college?

[Chocoholic]

You mention them over and over. You seem to be very upset over my expression of my opinion. I worked in a correctional facility. I know FIRSTHAND
the way that criminals think and behave. I worked with numerous death row inmates who only showed remorse once they realized that they were going to be executed. I work too hard for my money to have it go to pay for medical and dental care for people who, IN MY OPINION, have absolutely nothing coming to them.

How about this, you stick to your "studies" and opinions and I will continue making a difference.

BTW................Have you ever published any of your wonderful studies? Or do you just sit around reading true crime novels and take psychology courses from your local community college?

I'm not upset by your expression of opinion, I'm more amused by it. It seems that it is a very emotional issue for you. For me it isn't. Ethically and morally killing is wrong, period.

I will not reveal where I have worked, what I have studied in order to satisfy your need to know what my background is. I don't owe you any answers. Trying to gather personal information on a message board I believe is against the rules, if it isn't it should be. You may be able to bully your way around other places this way but it doesn't work quite like that with me.

I see you weren't able to answer my question. If it were a member of your family or a friend who was wrongly convicted of a crime and executed, would you still feel this way? I'd really like an answer, since I answered your question.

[sarge204]

Hi, Sorry to get in between youall but, Damn, my pc is mnelting!! I like to fire ppl up sometimes but this is scary! I doubt you'll ever agree but , you know young eyes are lookin' here...like mine.
Can we agree to disagree?:beer:

[Chocoholic]

Hi, Sorry to get in between youall but, Damn, my pc is mnelting!! I like to fire ppl up sometimes but this is scary! I doubt you'll ever agree but , you know young eyes are lookin' here...like mine.
Can we agree to disagree?:beer:

Witchita and I agreed to disagree a long time ago. :D

[Crystal_Ann]

I'm all for it but only in cases where there's absoltuely no doubt that the person is guilty. I feel that it's only fair that murderers lose their life like the victim lost their's.

[Chocoholic]

I'm all for it but only in cases where there's absoltuely no doubt that the person is guilty. I feel that it's only fair that murderers lose their life like the victim lost their's.

Timothy McVeigh would leap to mind.

[SaraSidle]

We would have to figure out how sure is sure that a person is guilty. I cannot believe we keep letting people out of prison because of the wrong DNA. How many other people are in prison that are innocent? How many people could be on death row that are innocent? How may people have wasted their lives in prison due to bad evidence and a jury of their peers? Everyone will have their own opinion of course and this is why no one can really agree. No system is perfect obviously.

[RC30]

I am an Indian, fed up with the way the executive and judiciary function in my country. Criminals of all hues rule the roost here. One is not safe anywhere. Police are the protectors of outlaws. Lawyers skin alive their clients. Here exists a savage system beyond description. But I think the Western countries have effective judicial and executive system to deal with the crime. When I read some horifying stories on the crimelibrary website, I was shocked to know that many criminals who even don't deserve to be called humans are enjoying comfy lives in jails as death penalty has been abolished by the lawmakers. It is sheer injustice to the victims, their families and the mankind as a whole.

[SaraSidle]

I completely agree with you RC30 but I also worry about all the inmates who are jailed and found innocent 3 to 30 years later. What if one of them are in death row for false indentications or bad dna. That would be murder and not the death penalty. We have to come up with a foolproof plan of guilt before we can use the death penaly which I would wholeheartedly approve if the absolute proof was there.

[Rick57]

I understand the debate on DNA and people wrongly accused, but there are so many that are caught red handed, smoking gun, etc. There should be no question of guilt. Those I would have no issues with.

[MsPsycho]

I believe in the death penalty in certain cases. I think it should be used sparingly and the evidence should be overwhelming.



But even sometimes the evidence can be overwhelming...such as someone believing they saw the person commit the crime, but later find out they identified the wrong person. Death penalty should only be for those who have committed more than one murder and show no possibility of reform.

[zurichsl]

give death penalty unless you know all the deatalials about serius kriminal minds like on based on free dome can judge but still i would`nt do it .
it can fix but also can destroy everything one wrong judgement and everything is falling . and you can of course act like okey lets do it that way the way how it works it`s too many inocent poeple dies i would take a chanse of history of bloodline from serving to protecting and discassing .. to the final judgment
top of the civilation .
and just try to fix it . . . so it wont be too late and un take able for others .:read: not working after that , :punch: working affter that .

[ozgal08]

I live in Australia, and over here we don’t have DP. However, I wish we did. I’m a supporter of it. Of course, not for those who are innocent, but then with technology these days, how many innocent people are there on death row or in prison these days? I firstly, believe that if you take a life through murder or abuse, yours should be taken. I also think that the methods are far to easy! Some of these victims are tortured for hours on end, yet these murders get the easy way out. I believe their deaths should be just as torturous if not worse :flamemad:

It’s a widely debateable topic, like religion and racism. I’m sure there will be someone who doesn’t agree with DP commenting on my post.

[zurichsl]

who has an active investigation with a knoweledge of useing the others as a desktop and also giving them a hard time in an investigation while they serving there rights and also who actually commit the homocide can be judge after that
or the studiing is still countinues ....?
imagen it from this and don`t all you need just reported basicly no one does there job in any government correctly or just the few until every realize that what actually happened in the pass and every one staying near by there family tree and the wife wont go to the other and tast it so you would become one one of the others and the investigation continues ..... step over it ....
:seeya:

[kays4033]

It seems to me that if a death sentence can be commuted to life (with the possibility of parole to boot!) when the law changes, it should just as easily be re-instated when the law changes back. I completely support DNA testing in murder cases that did not have this available at the time of conviction to prove or disprove absolutely the guilt or innocence of the accused to be more than sure that an innocent person is not wrongfully put to death. However, when guilt is crystal clear (as in the Manson family murders for example) it should be open and shut as to the disposition of their fate. I am not impressed by any of the "good" the Manson women have done while incarcerated. In my opinion, their choices were limited at best. What are the possibilties that they would have done those "wonderful" things had they not been where they are? Rehabilitated? Again, only an opinion, none of them deserved that opportunity. What they did was unspeakable, let alone their actions throughout the trial. I don't buy into the misunderstood brain-washed young girls routine. I am not discounting Manson himself by any means--he should have been put out of his misery the afternoon the verdict was read. As far as "cruel and unusual" punishment---were any of these people mindful of the cruel and unusual acts they commited on other human beings? I guess "an eye for an eye" IS the way I see it.

[SimplySue]

I used to be against the DP for many of the same reasons many of you have mentioned. The fear of executing an innocent person was the main reason.

I changed my stance a few years ago when I was following the case in TX where the father had the mother of his girls phone and then shot them both and told the mother "Merry F'ing Christmas".

Today as I was reading at one of the forums I frequent about the Shanda Sharer case someone left this on the boards:

Warning
*This story is very graphic*

Tesslynn O'Cull had just turned 3 years old when her mutilated body was discovered in a shallow grave near her home. She had been literally tortured to death by her mother Stella Keizer and her live in boyfriend, Jesse Compton. Both habitual drug users, Keizer and Compton had buried Tesslyn in an attempt to cover the evidence and claim that Tesslynn had been kidnapped. Fortunately, police discovered Tesslynn's body after allegedly receiving a report from Compton's sister, Lacey. Tesslynn's tiny body was covered with the marks of abuse and torture. There were unhealed and infected blisters and burns on virtually every portion of her body, including her buttocks, rectum and vagina. There was an open gaping wound on her back that is believed to have been inflicted with a propane blow-torch that Compton used to smoke methamphetamine. Toxicology reports showed that Compton and Keizer had poured massive amounts of rubbing alcohol into the wound, causing excruciating pain. In fact, there was so much alcohol in Tesslynn's system that it may have actually been the cause of death. Besides the external injurys, Tesslynn had been violently raped. Her back had been broken approximately 3 weeks before her death, and there was evidence of internal damage that led investigators to believe that she had been either kicked or stomped in the abdominal area. Investigators also found numerous electrical burns on Tesslynn's body where reportedly, Keizer and Compton had bared the wires of a lamp and shocked her body in an attempt to revive her after they discovered that she was dead. It was reported that the medical examiner involved in the case broke down and cried during his testimony while describing Tesslynn's condition. The injuries were so numerous that it was impossible to say which one ultimately led to her death.


:no: It reaffirmed my belief that there is a need for the DP.

[lisaznola]

I am pro death penalty.
Not for revenge. There is no way a dead victim can get real revenge.
But there are reasons behind why I support it.
It is a punishment. It is the ultimate punishment and if you choose to brutally kill or rape someone and you have no remorse or if you have spent the majority of the time you have lived committing violent offenses then you choose that punishment.
Life Without Parole is an option for some, but not the option for all. It is not an option for people that enjoy inflicting suffering, pain, and torture on others. LWP comes with the risk of escape and it leaves room for re-offending within the prison system, it leaves the chance of some kind of possible release and it carries a risk to the general public due to those things.
LWP in a prison is not a horrible punishment to all.
People can and do 'get used to' living in prison, and although they would prefer to be outside doing whatever they want, they learn to make the best of it.
Richard Speck comes to mind. :flamemad:
Also, I have a friend who has been in prison. It isn't fun, but it is not exactly unbearable. Sometimes when I compare what he talked and complained about to what friends in the Armed Services talk and complain about, I think prison sometimes sounds a bit similar, just more boring, and no weekend passes. So, I don't see prison as a horrid punishment. It is a choice that the person made.
Also, while in prison for life the killers/rapists/serial offenders can not only still visit with friends and loved ones they can manipulate people on the outside into giving them money, or writing, or sending certain things, so on. This manipultion gives them the feeling of power, and can be compared to the feeling they would get comitting crimes before being locked up. They are allowed, in a much lesser way, to continue to rob and manipulate others.

The Death Penalty is not a great deterent. I will agree with people on that. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be utilized. LWP isn't a great deterent either. The only way it (DP) would be is if it was done, or at least widely reported on, in a very public way. I don't see this happening, so it won't be one. I am all for making 1st time offenders watch an execution. Example: If a person kills another in a car jacking or a robbery or a rape, and it is not the first offense, or it was a brutal killing, they get the death penalty take some of the younger offenders guilty of progressively violent crimes and let them watch. Once they see that there will be an end, then it MIGHT be a deterent to some. (Scared Straight type program, and that had mixed results, so this would as well.)

The Death Penalty is needed, imo,
so that tax payers do not have to pay medical, food, clothing, housing, so on for brutal people who choose to kill, rape and destroy others. I know, the current 'forever-lasting' appeals process hurts this argument, but that is a flaw in the appeals process specifically, not with Death Penalty in general. That does need to be dealt with.
For the safety of those that work at the prison. The guards, medics, transport people, lawyers and general maintence personel that have to intereact with those that qualify for the DP are at risk.
Other prisoners are at risk when housed with or around this type of person.
If you are in prison with no hope of any release, and you have the personality that makes the suffering of others enjoyable what is to stop you from killing or raping a guard, a medic, a driver or anyone who has to interact with you?
Then there are visitors to the prison. There are risks to them as well. I have been in visiting rooms at prisons and the guards can not control everything all the time, as much as try to.
The general public is at risk if this person should escape.
I see it this way. There is more of a risk in keeping this personality alive than there is with them dead. I don't mean kill 'em all, but not everyone can be or wants to be 'saved', or kept alive.
The people on death row made choices and worked to get there. They were not randomly picked off the streets, they committed horrible brutal crimes ahgainst others and usually by the time they are on Death Row they have done it repeatedly, maybe not the same crime, but they worked up and up the ladder becomming increasingly violent to get where they are.
From what I know about the cases of the people that were released from Death Rows, it isn't as cut and dry as it might seem. Many of the people released were not actually found innocent. In some cases people were released on technical issues that struck the whole case down.

"DPIC counts people as "innocent" when they were released from death row for reasons wholly unrelated to any belief that they did not commit the crime charged. A man could be convicted of murder and sentenced to death, have his conviction overturned because of a technicality, and then walk free because witnesses had died in the interim. According to DPIC, he would be an "innocent" who was "exonerated." Only a minority of the people on DPIC's list are innocent in any normal sense of the word. "
"consult the case of Jay Smith, one of DPIC's "innocents." Smith was convicted and sentenced to death for killing a woman and her two children for money. Because the prosecution failed to disclose the existence of two grains of sand that might have lent credence to a farfetched defense theory, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court overturned the sentence — and found that no retrial was permissible under state law. Smith then sued the state for wrongful imprisonment. The appeals court ruled against him: "Our confidence in Smith's convictions for the murder of Susan Reinert and her two children is not the least bit diminished. . ." Other DPIC "exonerees" have seen their lawsuits and financial claims against states treated similarly."
-Ramesh Ponnuru

Sorry this was so long.
Just My Opinion.....

[Catriana]

Hello everyone, I'd thought I'd stir up some discussion of whether you are pro DP or anti DP. Choose one & tell why. If there is a personal reason you don't mind sharing, please post.


I'm not PRO-the Death Penalty. I'm FOR people obeying the laws of the land. I'm FOR people allowing others their pursuit of happiness, as long as it does not infringe on others rights.

But, if a person makes the choice to take another person(s) out of this world, they deserve no less than their victim received from their hands.

There should not be a "Life in prision without the chance of parole". THAT is cruel and unusual punishment. We should have the death penalty for any criminal who is given LWOP. Why should the citizens have to pay for the upkeep of a person who will never leave prison? We shouldn't.

I think we can never lose sight of the fact that the individual who committed the crimes PUT him/herself in the position they are in.

How much mercy did the perpetrator show their victim(s)? In my opinion, the perpetrator deserves NO MORE mercy then they showed their victim.

I guess I am FOR the death penalty after all. I guess you could say I am FOR victims.

I like the comedian's comments regarding Texas and the death penalty, "If you kill someone, we will kill you back".

Moral of the story, DON'T KILL OTHER PEOPLE.

[Chocoholic]

I'm not PRO-the Death Penalty. I'm FOR people obeying the laws of the land. I'm FOR people allowing others their pursuit of happiness, as long as it does not infringe on others rights.

But, if a person makes the choice to take another person(s) out of this world, they deserve no less than their victim received from their hands.

There should not be a "Life in prision without the chance of parole". THAT is cruel and unusual punishment. We should have the death penalty for any criminal who is given LWOP. Why should the citizens have to pay for the upkeep of a person who will never leave prison? We shouldn't.

I think we can never lose sight of the fact that the individual who committed the crimes PUT him/herself in the position they are in.

How much mercy did the perpetrator show their victim(s)? In my opinion, the perpetrator deserves NO MORE mercy then they showed their victim.

I guess I am FOR the death penalty after all. I guess you could say I am FOR victims.

I like the comedian's comments regarding Texas and the death penalty, "If you kill someone, we will kill you back".

Moral of the story, DON'T KILL OTHER PEOPLE.

The DP does just that.

[grneyes]

In a definite choice of Pro or Con I would have to choose Pro BUT for me it depends on the circumstances.

I had a distant cousin that was killed by his "best friend". The shooter claimed self defense and even though my cousin wasn't armed, he was a mean violent person. The shooter got a 1 year sentence of which he spent 9 months locked up.

Should he have been put to death? No, I don't think so. The shooter was not a violent person and this was way out of character for him. I do think he should have gotten a slightly longer sentence but definitely not the DP.

As for people like Ramirez, Dahlmer, Manson, and the like, I'm all for it. I do feel that they evidence has to be very accurate and very strong against the accused/convicted before it is carried out. Technology has advanced dramatically and the chances of an innocent being convicted of a violent crime are less likely to happen.

There are many older cases that do need to be re-opened and evidence re-examined but event then I don't think there will be as many innocents behind bars as some people think.

The ones that sit and plan out how they will torture, rape, and kill, are the ones that deserve no mercy. If you are going to lock them up for life then don't make it easy on them. Don't give them luxuries like cable, computers, and what have you. Lock them up in their private cells all alone and let them rot like Canada has done with Paul Bernardo. (Though they weren't too smart on dealing with Karla for her part in it.)

Oops, sorry. Guess I got a bit long winded there. :o


grn

[Drumbum]

In a definite choice of Pro or Con I would have to choose Pro BUT for me it depends on the circumstances.

I had a distant cousin that was killed by his "best friend". The shooter claimed self defense and even though my cousin wasn't armed, he was a mean violent person. The shooter got a 1 year sentence of which he spent 9 months locked up.

Should he have been put to death? No, I don't think so. The shooter was not a violent person and this was way out of character for him. I do think he should have gotten a slightly longer sentence but definitely not the DP.

As for people like Ramirez, Dahlmer, Manson, and the like, I'm all for it. I do feel that they evidence has to be very accurate and very strong against the accused/convicted before it is carried out. Technology has advanced dramatically and the chances of an innocent being convicted of a violent crime are less likely to happen.

There are many older cases that do need to be re-opened and evidence re-examined but event then I don't think there will be as many innocents behind bars as some people think.

The ones that sit and plan out how they will torture, rape, and kill, are the ones that deserve no mercy. If you are going to lock them up for life then don't make it easy on them. Don't give them luxuries like cable, computers, and what have you. Lock them up in their private cells all alone and let them rot like Canada has done with Paul Bernardo. (Though they weren't too smart on dealing with Karla for her part in it.)

Oops, sorry. Guess I got a bit long winded there. :o


grn

I have to agree here. The Death Penalty serves it's purpose for the likes of the brutal,remorseless killers above.

[MistyMoppens]

I'm very much in favor of the Death Penalty. We ALL understand the consequences of our actions in advance. Behavior = consequences... For the most part - it keeps society in check. (It's not perfect but it's the best we have at this point.)

Individuals make that decision for themselves when they commit the act. It's that simple.

Looking forward to jury duty coming up soon. :patriot:

[Wandering]

I am against the DP.
To many convicted people have been exonerated using DNA testing that wasn't available when the crime was commited. The innocence project has had several people freed from jail. IMO spending LWOP is the better alternative. You will be judged when you meet your maker. JMOThe DNA testing is done now before trial, so I don't think that's a valid argument.
I'm for the DP. I don't like people like Susan Atkins and her ilk breathing the same air I do. John Couey should be buried alive.
Furthermore, the guards in prison have to look at these creeps every day. They get spit on, feces thrown in their faces, etc.
And how about that Scott Peterson? He gets to post on his own website. They should speed up the appeals process and eliminate these monsters from decent society.
We have our own laws here on earth.

[melmatts]

The DP was designed for criminals like John Couey.....100% guilty

Their is always room for improvements... Innocent people die everyday at the hands of guilty people.

[MistyMoppens]

The DP was designed for criminals like John Couey.....100% guilty

Their is always room for improvements... Innocent people die everyday at the hands of guilty people.

I completely agree, melmatts. But Couey should be placed in a plastic GARBAGE bag and tossed into his grave, while still alive, for his punishment. After all, he had no problem, whatsoever, in carrying out that fate for little Jessica Lunsford. And let's not forget letting him take his favorite stuffed animal with him "for comfort." Gosh.... whataguy.... So *thoughtful*... :cuss:

BTW - love, adore, admire & respect Nancy Grace! (aka "Lady Justice" by her fans..)

[f0revery0urs]

I am for the death penelty. People who murder others without mercy should be shown the same. Why do they get to live if they kill people? They shouldn't. People know the punishment and if they choose to still go about it, they deserve death.

[Notknowingall]

I am for the death penelty. People who murder others without mercy should be shown the same. Why do they get to live if they kill people? They shouldn't. People know the punishment and if they choose to still go about it, they deserve death.

ITA there ITA. And enough with the 15, 20, or more years of appeals too. With the advancement of DNA evidence there should be no more need for lengthy delays.

[Serial Killer X]

I am for the death penelty. People who murder others without mercy should be shown the same. Why do they get to live if they kill people? They shouldn't. People know the punishment and if they choose to still go about it, they deserve death.

Yer I Agree With You But It Depend's How Severe There Crimes Are!

[INGASON14]

My feelings on this is if you are convicted from DNA, witnesses or a combination of both then you should get the death penalty and I are talking about murder. No more appeals, no more wasting tax payers dollars on these appeals and no more sitting on death row for 10 plus years. I feel within 30 days of your conviction you should be put to death.


***This is my opinion

[f0revery0urs]

My feelings on this is if you are convicted from DNA, witnesses or a combination of both then you should get the death penalty and I are talking about murder. No more appeals, no more wasting tax payers dollars on these appeals and no more sitting on death row for 10 plus years. I feel within 30 days of your conviction you should be put to death.


***This is my opinion




I'm not saying that if you hit someone with your car and they die, you should die too, but if you kill in cold blood, you deserve to die the same way you killed them. I must agree with the appeals statement though. These people sit there and murder people and think they can just appeal their way through life. It's a waste of time and money. Appeal after Appeal. One appeal per person should be sufficent if the evidence can even prove innocence. If the evidence and witnesses are completely against the murderer, then there should be no right for an appeal. Appeals should only be granted if their is a chance of innocence, not just a time saver.

[INGASON14]

I'm not saying that if you hit someone with your car and they die, you should die too, but if you kill in cold blood, you deserve to die the same way you killed them. I must agree with the appeals statement though. These people sit there and murder people and think they can just appeal their way through life. It's a waste of time and money. Appeal after Appeal. One appeal per person should be sufficent if the evidence can even prove innocence. If the evidence and witnesses are completely against the murderer, then there should be no right for an appeal. Appeals should only be granted if their is a chance of innocence, not just a time saver.

I bolded what I am responding too. Now drunk drivers is another issue for me. To me that is murder. If you have an accident an hit someone no you should not get the death penalty. But drunk drivers burn my butt. One guy here was convicted of his 8th drunk driving charge. They take away their licence but these people still drink and drive. Hubby and I have a rule, if we go out we decide ahead of time who drinks and who stays sober per say. That way no one is drinking and driving. Have also taught my kids that rule and so far so good.

Murder and raping of a child in my eyes are the worst of the worst so death penalty should apply in these cases. Enough is enough.

***this is my opinion

[INGASON14]

I completely agree, melmatts. But Couey should be placed in a plastic GARBAGE bag and tossed into his grave, while still alive, for his punishment. After all, he had no problem, whatsoever, in carrying out that fate for little Jessica Lunsford. And let's not forget letting him take his favorite stuffed animal with him "for comfort." Gosh.... whataguy.... So *thoughtful*... :cuss:

BTW - love, adore, admire & respect Nancy Grace! (aka "Lady Justice" by her fans..)

Couey should have gone straight from the court to the seath chamber. Waste of -----. He should not be allowed to live in this world anymore. He and his family, I feel they knew that she was there and ignored it for whatever reason.

***this is my opinion

[SaraSidle]

Couey should have gone straight from the court to the seath chamber. Waste of -----. He should not be allowed to live in this world anymore. He and his family, I feel they knew that she was there and ignored it for whatever reason.

***this is my opinion

ITA with everything you have posted Inga.

[INGASON14]

ITA with everything you have posted Inga.

Thank you.

We will be paying for Couey for the next ten to twenty years and to the family of Jessica to me this is not fair. He killed their daughter and now they have to pay to house, feed and cloth him for the next several years while their precious daughter lies in a grave.

My opinion is the prisons are not prisons anymore but just a place that houses criminals. They have cable tv, three meals, a roof over their head, clothing, equipment to exercise with, and some of the prisoners get to work and earn privileges. I know that some prisons can be very rough but then again I know some people who will commit crimes just to get sent back to prison because they don't have to worry about anything.


***this is my opinion.

[SaraSidle]

Thank you.

We will be paying for Couey for the next ten to twenty years and to the family of Jessica to me this is not fair. He killed their daughter and now they have to pay to house, feed and cloth him for the next several years while their precious daughter lies in a grave.

My opinion is the prisons are not prisons anymore but just a place that houses criminals. They have cable tv, three meals, a roof over their head, clothing, equipment to exercise with, and some of the prisoners get to work and earn privileges. I know that some prisons can be very rough but then again I know some people who will commit crimes just to get sent back to prison because they don't have to worry about anything.


***this is my opinion.


I know this and it makes me angry. And then I read complaints in the media that our prisons are too full!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMO

[INGASON14]

I know this and it makes me angry. And then I read complaints in the media that our prisons are too full!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMO

Well in my opinion then lets line up our death row prisoners and start handing out their sentences one at a time. If all the states would get onboard, some of these death row prisoners will actually have their sentence carried out. I am so sick and tired of all these prisoners that whine their rights have been violated. What about their victims' rights? With DNA should be able to speed up the process and have a murderer dead to rights no more ten years on death row. 30 days maximum, then off to the death chamber.

***This is my opinion

[cta2rlm]

Many have asked about laws and God. I know there is a passage in the bible about man following man's laws while we are on earth, but we would have to deal with God's laws at our judgment.

I believe that Christ is the New Testament, I also believe that during this time those of us who are Christian understand this, we must follow man's laws. At this time man's law (depending on what state u live in, me TX) states that if you murder someone (premeditated) you might suffer death. I am not saying make it cruel, etc. The great thing about our justice system, which of course with the press I'm not sure it's so great now. We are assumed innocent until guilty. I don't think our fonding father's considered that all these advances in TV, etc, would happen. It does make it hard not form an opinion before a trial. I also think all people who are defendants at trial should be given the same access to whatever tests, representation regardless of wealth.

As has been asked, please provide a name of one innocent person who has been executed since the reinstatement of the DP?

[SaraSidle]

Well in my opinion then lets line up our death row prisoners and start handing out their sentences one at a time. If all the states would get onboard, some of these death row prisoners will actually have their sentence carried out. I am so sick and tired of all these prisoners that whine their rights have been violated. What about their victims' rights? With DNA should be able to speed up the process and have a murderer dead to rights no more ten years on death row. 30 days maximum, then off to the death chamber.

***This is my opinion

I sure do not know what is the holdup IMO

[INGASON14]

I sure do not know what is the holdup IMO

There is a fight over who will be first in line roflmoa. Sorry couldn't resist. The big hold up in my opinion is noone wants to take responsibilty for the executions. I say look over each death row inmate and if they are proven quilty without a doubt, walk then to the chamber and pull the switch or inject them and lets be done with this. Massive executions. Show these prisoners we mean business and we are not going to take this murdering, raping or anymore violent crimes they commit.


***This is my opinion

[SaraSidle]

There is a fight over who will be first in line roflmoa. Sorry couldn't resist. The big hold up in my opinion is noone wants to take responsibilty for the executions. I say look over each death row inmate and if they are proven quilty without a doubt, walk then to the chamber and pull the switch or inject them and lets be done with this. Massive executions. Show these prisoners we mean business and we are not going to take this murdering, raping or anymore violent crimes they commit.


***This is my opinion

ITA with you Inga. I cannot imagine what is taking so long now that it is legal.

[The R]

Many have asked about laws and God. I know there is a passage in the bible about man following man's laws while we are on earth, but we would have to deal with God's laws at our judgment.

I believe that Christ is the New Testament, I also believe that during this time those of us who are Christian understand this, we must follow man's laws. At this time man's law (depending on what state u live in, me TX) states that if you murder someone (premeditated) you might suffer death. I am not saying make it cruel, etc. The great thing about our justice system, which of course with the press I'm not sure it's so great now. We are assumed innocent until guilty. I don't think our fonding father's considered that all these advances in TV, etc, would happen. It does make it hard not form an opinion before a trial. I also think all people who are defendants at trial should be given the same access to whatever tests, representation regardless of wealth.

As has been asked, please provide a name of one innocent person who has been executed since the reinstatement of the DP?

You make some really good points IMO. There are some places that still have a CJ system in which you are considered guilty until you prove you are innocent....hard to believe really. I'm sure the media has made it a much harder job to find people to serve as jurors that haven't been influnced previously. And I like your comment about wealth and its affect on the process. It is widely known that the elite don't suffer the same severity in sentencing that the common do.

I would say about your last comment however that I don't think it's that important to name a person that had been illegally executed or murdered by the state since re-instatement. Most of the emphasis by the groups trying to save the wrongly convicted is placed on just that; trying to stop executions before they happen. I doubt you'll see many of these groups wasting precious resources on researching who had been wrongly executed once the execution has been carried out. IMO this type of organization would be the most likely to be in a position to know this info.

In short, if the state has ever executed an innocent person under a DP sentence, the practice should be called into question.

ALLMO,
R

[INGASON14]

You make some really good points IMO. There are some places that still have a CJ system in which you are considered guilty until you prove you are innocent....hard to believe really. I'm sure the media has made it a much harder job to find people to serve as jurors that haven't been influnced previously. And I like your comment about wealth and its affect on the process. It is widely known that the elite don't suffer the same severity in sentencing that the common do.

I would say about your last comment however that I don't think it's that important to name a person that had been illegally executed or murdered by the state since re-instatement. Most of the emphasis by the groups trying to save the wrongly convicted is placed on just that; trying to stop executions before they happen. I doubt you'll see many of these groups wasting precious resources on researching who had been wrongly executed once the execution has been carried out. IMO this type of organization would be the most likely to be in a position to know this info.

In short, if the state has ever executed an innocent person under a DP sentence, the practice should be called into question.

ALLMO,
R

I think with all these cases that are making headlines, the death penalty needs to come back in force. I am sick and my heart aches for these murdered children. I am not taking away from others that have been murdered but Couet is a perfect example. What he did to Jessica was unspeakable and he should not be sitting on death row for ten years, 30 days max and then to death.


***This is my opinion

[SaraSidle]

I think with all these cases that are making headlines, the death penalty needs to come back in force. I am sick and my heart aches for these murdered children. I am not taking away from others that have been murdered but Couet is a perfect example. What he did to Jessica was unspeakable and he should not be sitting on death row for ten years, 30 days max and then to death.


***This is my opinion

ITA Inga

[The R]

I think with all these cases that are making headlines, the death penalty needs to come back in force. I am sick and my heart aches for these murdered children. I am not taking away from others that have been murdered but Couet is a perfect example. What he did to Jessica was unspeakable and he should not be sitting on death row for ten years, 30 days max and then to death.


***This is my opinion


Ingason I sure understand what you're saying about Couey, acts like his should not be tolerated and I agree with the use of the DP in cases like his.
However I believe it should be used only in cases like his (the most grievous) but not for the less provable ones. I'd hate to think that an innocent person died for an act they didn't commit.

The problem is with the sorry state of some prosecutors like the ones that handled the Duke/stripper fiasco or the OJ trial, you have a chance of malfeasance on the side of the prosecution all too often. The system is far from perfect and I have to ask myself 'what if I was wrongly accused and sitting on death row?' Would I want the system to speed up the process and deny me rights to appeal?
But I do agree with you about Jessica and Couey. Creeps like Couey need to know that punishment will be swift and sure.

May be O/T but the case about to be tried in ATL, where the guy shot the judge, etc and then some LE after.....The public defender's ofc couldn't pay for this guys defense and there is a big stink about it and its costs right now. His attys intentionally wanted to 'break the bank' of the public defense fund evidently to slow his trial. Pretty amazing to me...you got this guy on tape doing what he did etc and all the witnesses. If there ever was a case for QUICK punishment it would be that one, yet I had a co-student in a Criminal Justice class recently say that she thinks there are extenuating circumstances; that he was falsely imprisoned and the guy may have had a justification.....kinda hard to believe someone would think that, but it does point to just how debatable the use of the DP can be.

ALLMO,
R

[f0revery0urs]

I actually brough this post up while talking to my mother the other day and she gave me her opinion so I thought I would post it.
My mother feels that a person who is given the death penalty should not be allowed more than 2 appeals. Her reason for 2 is because new technology and evidence could come into play within a couple years, but after that the case is dead. She also said that because people do appeal after appeal, they are just prolonging their life in prison. If the judges and the law allow it, why have the death penalty in the first place?

[INGASON14]

Unfortunately, where I live there is no death penalty.

I agree with the DP 100%. Not for revenge. The victim/s have no rights and can't speak for themselves.

For logic. The murderer/s won't ever do it again.

Good point. I don't believe in the death penalty as revenge either but as a form of punishment. With DNA, that would clinch it for me. I feel the death penalty should be used in these cases where there is DNA and can be proven without a doubt that they committed the crime.


***This is my opinion

[INGASON14]

Ingason I sure understand what you're saying about Couey, acts like his should not be tolerated and I agree with the use of the DP in cases like his.
However I believe it should be used only in cases like his (the most grievous) but not for the less provable ones. I'd hate to think that an innocent person died for an act they didn't commit.

The problem is with the sorry state of some prosecutors like the ones that handled the Duke/stripper fiasco or the OJ trial, you have a chance of malfeasance on the side of the prosecution all too often. The system is far from perfect and I have to ask myself 'what if I was wrongly accused and sitting on death row?' Would I want the system to speed up the process and deny me rights to appeal?
But I do agree with you about Jessica and Couey. Creeps like Couey need to know that punishment will be swift and sure.

May be O/T but the case about to be tried in ATL, where the guy shot the judge, etc and then some LE after.....The public defender's ofc couldn't pay for this guys defense and there is a big stink about it and its costs right now. His attys intentionally wanted to 'break the bank' of the public defense fund evidently to slow his trial. Pretty amazing to me...you got this guy on tape doing what he did etc and all the witnesses. If there ever was a case for QUICK punishment it would be that one, yet I had a co-student in a Criminal Justice class recently say that she thinks there are extenuating circumstances; that he was falsely imprisoned and the guy may have had a justification.....kinda hard to believe someone would think that, but it does point to just how debatable the use of the DP can be.

ALLMO,
R

I highlighted the sentence I am responding too. This is a clear cut case of murder:
a. caught on tape
b. witnesses
There is no justification, he could have filed a law suit if he felt he was wrongly accused-not murder the judge and law enforcement. I am so sick of I had a rough upbringing- So what, so did I. I chose to break the cycle and raise my kids with love and understanding. They were allowed to make mistakes and then learn from them. They were also taught that there is consequences for your actions.

***This is my opinion

[Drumbum]

Some good sources on the DP.

Death at Midnight- Don Cabana.
Death Row: Confidential- Bob Weinstein & Jim Bessent
Twenty-Thousand Years in Sing-Sing- Lewis E. Lawes
deathpenaltyinfo.org

[LtlMissSunshine]

Its horrific to think of, that country like US still has the deathpenalty. Just breathtaking. No one has the rigth to decide who lives or dies, either you are a killer or a judge. You can't teach people that is wrong to kill, by killing! Performing a deathpenalty, is just as much killing someone, that one person stabbing another in the local bar. Its taking someones life either way.

And what good comes out of it, if the criminal is locked up for life anyway? Does the victims families get their loved ones back? No. Does it makes the world a better place? No. If they're in jail, they don't walk the streets anymore. And everyone is sobbing about the victims families to get "closure" and that there is so many people that are suffering and became victims by a killers actions. Well, by killing a criminal, doesnt that just make one more family a victim? One more mother to cry for her child, one more sister to miss her brother. Finding out that a familymember commits murder is gruesom enough on a family, and then they get their loved one ripped away by judge that decide that the person is not worth living anymore. A mothers or fathers love to a child doesnt just go away because they have commited a crime.

It just doesnt make sense. An eye for an eye makes the world blind.

[Serial Killer X]

Unfortunately, where I live there is no death penalty.

I agree with the DP 100%. Not for revenge. The victim/s have no rights and can't speak for themselves.

For logic. The murderer/s won't ever do it again.

Yer I Agree Life Imprisonment Is The Most Severe Punishment In Australia.

-SKX

[Jules100]

I am anti DP

[Jules100]

I thought i'd add to my post as it was pretty basic - oops
The reason that i am anti DP, is 1- i dont think anyone has the right to take a life including the state and also there has been cases of men being released from death row after DNA testing has proven their innocence, this made me wonder how many people had been executed who were innocent it's a scary thought

[Belangalo]

I can't decide everyone wanted Lindy Chamberlain executed it took a while but her conviction was quashed what do you do then , on the other hand those pigs that murdered Anita Cobby they deserve to die for what they did to her i'd even do it myself.

[susie31023]

I am pro. If there is irrefutable evidence of guilt then in heinous crimes death should be given. We live in a political correct society which for anyone who doesn't understand means simply we are to feel sorry for the murderers. "They had a bad childhood", They were from a poor family", "Their parents didn't show them enough love","they didn't get the toy they wanted" etc.

America is by all means a great country, yet we have become a country who wavers in our own laws. Everyday we continually let murderers, rapists, and other violent offenders out of prison to continue their crimes. Most violent offenders have been in prison at least once in their lives, yet instead of keeping them where they are unable to hurt anyone, we are told they deserve a second,third or maybe a fourth chance.

The death penalty is there for the most violent acts against society. Why should the victims families have to pay to keep these people alive? Where is the justice in that? I agree the family of the offender will grieve for their loved one, but at least their loved one has a less violent death than their victims. The argument that it costs millions of dollars to put someone to death makes no sense. How much does it cost to keep them alive for 20,30,40 years? Also for those that say the DP isn't a deterrent, for that murderer it is very much a deterrent. I guarantee that person will not murder again.

Why do we continue to feed, clothe, provide medical care, and shelter to the most violent offenders, yet we have children who are without food, shelter, medical care? Where is the justice in that? How can you look at a hungry, homeless child and say that they deserve less than a killer? We do it everyday that death row inmates live. They are protected above all else.

Death row inmates are put on the waiting lists for organs. Think about this for a moment, you have a loved one who desperately needs an organ to live..Now what if that organ was taken and instead of being given to your loved one it is given to a murderer who has shown he can't live by society's rules. How can you look at your loved one and tell them in essence you put the killer above them?

When we as a society begin to put the criminals above the law abiding citizens, we become as bad as the criminal. For our laws are meant to protect not to allow the guilty to wreak havoc on law abiding citizens. People are afraid to leave their doors unlocked, they are afraid to let their children play without close supervision in their own yards! Criminals walk the streets without fear because they know how to work the system. The laws protect the guilty, not the innocent! I'm sorry if I have offended anyone but what I have stated are facts. We have become afraid to punish anyone for fear of being called inhumane, racist, or any one of the many names that the politically correct would have us believe that we are. I am not any of those names. What I am is a staunch believer in victims rights, and the rights of every law abiding citizen. There are some on DR that I would gladly pull the switch, insert the needle,etc. on.

Sorry for such a long post but I feel very strongly about this. There are too many children, men and women being murdered. Now let the bashing begin, LOL...Susie is stepping away from the keyboard...:D:D:D

[Super Volcano]

Unfortunately, where I live there is no death penalty.

I agree with the DP 100%. Not for revenge. The victim/s have no rights and can't speak for themselves.

For logic. The murderer/s won't ever do it again.

This is what I also believe, concerning this subject.

[SUSYDAHMER]

I believe that the DP is appropriate punishment for aggravated murder but only for these .

[Drumbum]

I am pro. If there is irrefutable evidence of guilt then in heinous crimes death should be given. We live in a political correct society which for anyone who doesn't understand means simply we are to feel sorry for the murderers. "They had a bad childhood", They were from a poor family", "Their parents didn't show them enough love","they didn't get the toy they wanted" etc.

America is by all means a great country, yet we have become a country who wavers in our own laws. Everyday we continually let murderers, rapists, and other violent offenders out of prison to continue their crimes. Most violent offenders have been in prison at least once in their lives, yet instead of keeping them where they are unable to hurt anyone, we are told they deserve a second,third or maybe a fourth chance.

The death penalty is there for the most violent acts against society. Why should the victims families have to pay to keep these people alive? Where is the justice in that? I agree the family of the offender will grieve for their loved one, but at least their loved one has a less violent death than their victims. The argument that it costs millions of dollars to put someone to death makes no sense. How much does it cost to keep them alive for 20,30,40 years? Also for those that say the DP isn't a deterrent, for that murderer it is very much a deterrent. I guarantee that person will not murder again.

Why do we continue to feed, clothe, provide medical care, and shelter to the most violent offenders, yet we have children who are without food, shelter, medical care? Where is the justice in that? How can you look at a hungry, homeless child and say that they deserve less than a killer? We do it everyday that death row inmates live. They are protected above all else.

Death row inmates are put on the waiting lists for organs. Think about this for a moment, you have a loved one who desperately needs an organ to live..Now what if that organ was taken and instead of being given to your loved one it is given to a murderer who has shown he can't live by society's rules. How can you look at your loved one and tell them in essence you put the killer above them?

When we as a society begin to put the criminals above the law abiding citizens, we become as bad as the criminal. For our laws are meant to protect not to allow the guilty to wreak havoc on law abiding citizens. People are afraid to leave their doors unlocked, they are afraid to let their children play without close supervision in their own yards! Criminals walk the streets without fear because they know how to work the system. The laws protect the guilty, not the innocent! I'm sorry if I have offended anyone but what I have stated are facts. We have become afraid to punish anyone for fear of being called inhumane, racist, or any one of the many names that the politically correct would have us believe that we are. I am not any of those names. What I am is a staunch believer in victims rights, and the rights of every law abiding citizen. There are some on DR that I would gladly pull the switch, insert the needle,etc. on.

Sorry for such a long post but I feel very strongly about this. There are too many children, men and women being murdered. Now let the bashing begin, LOL...Susie is stepping away from the keyboard...:D:D:D

Excellent post. :)

[susie31023]

Excellent post. :)


Thank you DB..I feel very strongly about the DP. It just boogles my mind that the evil amongst us are allowed to get away with murder over and over and the Laws of our country have come to protect them instead of what our forefathers intended~Susie

[Grave Chaser]

I am pro. If there is irrefutable evidence of guilt then in heinous crimes death should be given. We live in a political correct society which for anyone who doesn't understand means simply we are to feel sorry for the murderers. "They had a bad childhood", They were from a poor family", "Their parents didn't show them enough love","they didn't get the toy they wanted" etc.

America is by all means a great country, yet we have become a country who wavers in our own laws. Everyday we continually let murderers, rapists, and other violent offenders out of prison to continue their crimes. Most violent offenders have been in prison at least once in their lives, yet instead of keeping them where they are unable to hurt anyone, we are told they deserve a second,third or maybe a fourth chance.

The death penalty is there for the most violent acts against society. Why should the victims families have to pay to keep these people alive? Where is the justice in that? I agree the family of the offender will grieve for their loved one, but at least their loved one has a less violent death than their victims. The argument that it costs millions of dollars to put someone to death makes no sense. How much does it cost to keep them alive for 20,30,40 years? Also for those that say the DP isn't a deterrent, for that murderer it is very much a deterrent. I guarantee that person will not murder again.

Why do we continue to feed, clothe, provide medical care, and shelter to the most violent offenders, yet we have children who are without food, shelter, medical care? Where is the justice in that? How can you look at a hungry, homeless child and say that they deserve less than a killer? We do it everyday that death row inmates live. They are protected above all else.

Death row inmates are put on the waiting lists for organs. Think about this for a moment, you have a loved one who desperately needs an organ to live..Now what if that organ was taken and instead of being given to your loved one it is given to a murderer who has shown he can't live by society's rules. How can you look at your loved one and tell them in essence you put the killer above them?

When we as a society begin to put the criminals above the law abiding citizens, we become as bad as the criminal. For our laws are meant to protect not to allow the guilty to wreak havoc on law abiding citizens. People are afraid to leave their doors unlocked, they are afraid to let their children play without close supervision in their own yards! Criminals walk the streets without fear because they know how to work the system. The laws protect the guilty, not the innocent! I'm sorry if I have offended anyone but what I have stated are facts. We have become afraid to punish anyone for fear of being called inhumane, racist, or any one of the many names that the politically correct would have us believe that we are. I am not any of those names. What I am is a staunch believer in victims rights, and the rights of every law abiding citizen. There are some on DR that I would gladly pull the switch, insert the needle,etc. on.

Sorry for such a long post but I feel very strongly about this. There are too many children, men and women being murdered. Now let the bashing begin, LOL...Susie is stepping away from the keyboard...:D:D:D

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Amen sistah! I would also like the add, for those who say the DP is not a deterrant..... how about we just give it a try? If we as a country would actually ENFORCE the DP when there is iirrefutable PROOF and SWIFTLY carry out the penalty of death instead of letting them sit on death row for 20+ years in their cushey cots, cable tv, hot meals, pen pals/fan mail, congical (sp?) visits, medical care (none of which I have, and I'm a law abiding, tax paying, never had more than a speeding ticket citizen), I'm sure a vast majority of people would think twice about taking another life. And with the money saved on their $100 humane injection instead of a multi million dollar, multi year care program, we could set up some wonderful oranizations that could help many people work toward a different path than cold blooded murder. I would also like to see the sickos who like to torture, terrorize, rape, sodomize chidlren (or grown men and women for that matter) stand in that same line for a speedy death. They cannot be changed/rehabilitated. Lets just save ourselves ANOTHER victim and sad story to read about here.

[intrigued]

As you can see from my comments posted almost a year ago, I am an avid supporter of the death penalty. I have worked in corrections for almost 10 years and I have been exposed to every kind of inmate. Male, female, youth, mentally ill...........you name it. I have dealt them all. One thing that the majority of these inmates possess is the lack of genuine remorse. Most offenders regret getting caught and not the committing of the actual crime. One thing that I need to make clear is that I definitely feel that a lot of consideration needs to go into making the decision to impose the death penalty. It's not apunishment that needs to be thrown out without a great deal of thought and consideration of the "totality of circumstances" surrounding the crime. Some people are born broken and there is not a way to "fix" these individuals. When animals such as dogs are deemed to violent, they are euthanized in order to permanently remove the chance of them ever posing a threat. I feel that the same tactics shoud be used when dealing with some of the most violent, sociopathic, and delusional offenders.

[wind149]

Great post intrigued and as you can guess from my postings that I am for the DP and also worked in LE. I too, saw people that if it was up to me they would get the DP and those are the ones that rape and murder women and children and serial killers. No child rapist or murderer is remorseful, I remember reading a true crime novel about a serial child rapist. He proceeded to tell the arresting officer that he basically "could not wait to get him another" Thank God he will never see parole, but he should be sitting on death row. And don't get me started on those bleeding hearts who think more of these scumbags than they do their victims. "Oh it is so cruel to execute someone" No, what I think is cruel is when the victim should they have lived or their families is how long these POS sit on death row sucking up tax dollars, having people advocate for THEIR LIFE and spend thousands trying to do so.

Friday, VA executed a cop killer who, on his way down the green mile fought with the CO's trying to get him to the death chamber, still singing the I am innocent jazz, and now you know there is already people whining about this, they executed an innocent man. Well, I read the article and this loser had been gunning for the officer because he had busted him with guns. The officer was very popular and not one other soul had it in for him but this scum and I say kudos to VA for not backing down on executing him, one less piece of s**t on the planet. I think that every second conviction a SO gets the death penalty. They can never be cured, it is not an addiction, it is a sick urge and I am so tired of children being used as sex toys for these freaks and then murdered to cover up the crime. And of course, you look at their record and for at least three times, they got probation for raping a child, then maybe a year, empowering them to continue to harm children and then when using them is not enough to get them off, then they kill them.

So we should kill them back and carry out the sentence within 30 days not 20 years!!! I will never forget Susan Shorpen's response when asked by a reporter how she felt when her child's rapist and murderer was sentenced to death. She said, "He is still breathing, my child is not". I think we need to bring back the gas chamber and the chair. At least, the scumbags would feel some pain like they should, lethal injection is a joke. The first shot puts them to sleep, they don't feel a thing by the time the other two injections are given. I want to see them writhing in the chair as they fry, I want to see them choking as they inhale the gas. Other countries have the right idea. Burn them, whip them, castrate them, hang them, shoot them! I saw a show one night on corporal punishment and they showed a man being flogged for raping a child in India. He was strung up naked and they beat him all over, he was screaming in pain and agony and eventually he died, and all I kept thinking about, is I wish it was John Couey, Joesph Duncan, Joesph Smith, and instead these POS will just get the needle. Maybe if we did that here, the crime rate would go to an all time low.

[Parker]

Isn't lethal injection basically the only way crims are put to death now? Seems to me you do the crime you take the punishment.

[One2Snoop]

I could be pro if they would give it more often to women than they do. It's so hard to even get murder one for a woman when she murders and even tougher to get her death. I don't think that the DP is equal...therefore it should be abolished. imo

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[wind149]

Toskala, I agree with you, you won't get any argument from me there! I wanted Susan Smith to get the DP till I realized that is exactly what she wanted and then I was like give her LWPOP, but she did not even get that, she got life, but she can be up for parole when she turns 53, basically after serving 30 years. I also have seen crime shows where women like Lynn Turner who murdered two men in cold blood with glycol for the insurance money, She got a 10-20 for her husband and LWPOP for killing her boyfriend, so she is never getting out, but she should have gotten the DP. McGuire should also have gotten the DP. So I agree, women should not be given a pass because they are too pretty to execute!!

[Parker]

It doesn't matter whether the perp is male or female. Gender IMO doesn't matter.

[Parker]

What about Aileen Wuornos? She was convicted and executed. Betty Broderick. She was convicted and incarcerated. One killed total strangers, one killed her ex-husband and his new wife. Why should one die and one live?

[susie31023]

What about Aileen Wuornos? She was convicted and executed. Betty Broderick. She was convicted and incarcerated. One killed total strangers, one killed her ex-husband and his new wife. Why should one die and one live?

I agree Parker. Both should have been given the DP. Unfortunately they weren't and that is the problem I have with our justice in America[ not sure of other countries]. There should be a consensus on who gets the DP. I know there are guidelines but the prosecutors and judges use their own discretion to either put the DP on the table or not. I think it should be more clear cut. Shouldn't matter whether it's a male or female, or the color of their skin, if it meets the criteria then it should be imposed. By the way welcome to the boards:seeya:, sorry I haven't welcomed you sooner. Look forward to reading more of your opinions.~Suz

[Parker]

Thanks. That's really kind of you. :) I read a lot more than write. Maybe because Betty Broderick came from a wealthy background she wasn't given the same treatment as Aileen Wuornos?

[susie31023]

Thanks. That's really kind of you. :) I read a lot more than write. Maybe because Betty Broderick came from a wealthy background she wasn't given the same treatment as Aileen Wuornos?

Thats very possible Parker. I think there is a disparity between the judgements of white collar people and blue collar people. That being said I really would like to see some of the laws made clearer so that we could have a more equal justice system. I also read here a lot but please jump in whenever you feel like it. You do bring some interesting points up.

[wind149]

Parker, The difference between Betty Broderick is she was upper middle class, I am surprised she did not get probation for the murders and Alieen was white trash. The income bracket matters more than you know. And juries look at Aileen and they curl their nose up at her, uneducated, a prostitute, a lesbian who murdered 7 men, was not a stretch for them to give her the DP. Juries see Betty and they feel that she was scorned, a woman who worked to put him through school, bear and raise his children, clean and cook, a regular Mrs Cleaver, charity events, and he leaves her for his much younger secretary, the women on the jury relate, they feel for her, and the men think, that could be my sister so she gets a life sentence, I think if she had not shot them both, she might have been paroled by now. So if you are just plain gutter trash, been in trouble all your life, you will get a bigger and longer sentence. If you are born rich and get into trouble, Daddy cleans up your mess, you get a small sentence, or probation. is this fair? Not one bit, but this is reality.

[Parker]

OK. Here goes. What if Betty Broderick had been the lesbien serial killer and Aileen Wournos the one that shot her husband and wife. Would Broderick have gotten the DP and Wournos the life in jail?

[wind149]

Keeping in terms that BB had money, she probably would have gotten the life sentence and Aileen would still have gotten the DP. But the one I feel empathy for is Aileen. She never stood a chance in life, her mother foists her on to her parents where Granny is an alcoholic and Grandpa is a pedophile, she is beaten and raped and I suspect that Grandpa is probably the father of that baby, she never went much to school, she was living in the woods when those lovely people kicked her out at the age of 14, she had the baby and took off for FL. With no education, Aileen was not going to get a good enough job to support herself, so she does the one thing that women can do, turn to prostitution. And we all know she was abused by the Johns, and this is where Aileen's mental health really goes to hell, she is no longer lucid, she meets Tyria, falls in love and would have done anything to keep their relationship, Ty, was the only one who ever cared for her and she wasn't about to let her go so she started killing the men, and in her mind she is thinking about Grandpa, and to her, with her mind half gone, she is convinced that all these men were out to hurt her so she killed them in self defense, but she can't explain that she took their cars and money, I listened to her going off about these men, that taking their money and cash was payback for what she perceived was rape, clearly, Aileen was insane and I don't have a clue why her lawyer did not use that as a defense, if other women can do it, why was she not given the option??

Mary Winkler got away with murder. I think that Aileen shouldn't have been executed, if other slobs try the I was crazy and I have no clue what I did, and avoid the DP, Aileen was below the IQ of borderline retarded, her IQ was at best 69, and the retard level is 70, so the state of FL executed someone that they should not have because their laws state that you can't execute someone if they are deemed retarded. Couey tried, but even as brain dead as he is, he got a 90 and he thank God is sitting on death row. If BB had gotten a death sentence it would never hold up, she has enough money to keep the appeal process going on till the day she dies of natural causes, she would never see the inside of the death chamber. And she also had a very good childhood, parents had plenty of money, I suspect that the reason that BB killed her husband and Linda is, she had never heard the word no before and could not handle the fact that hubby did not want her anymore and kept lashing out hoping that he would give in and come back to her. So money does matter, but at least OJ is now behind bars for 15 years, might not have gotten the DP he clearly deserved for killing Ron and Nicole, but 15 years taken off his sorry ass life makes me happy!! I am sure his incarceration is not going to be fun, he is nothing more than a has-been dirtbag murderer, he is no longer the great football player or actor or pitch man, he is inmate #45673 and he gets no special attention, he has to eat the same slop, no steaks or Nate & Al's being sent in like when he was in the county jail in 1994-1995, he has to abide by all the rules, and he can't throw his weight around, not one CO is going to be impressed, to them he is just another loser in the flock.

[Mindy]

Hi, I'm Mindy,

I'm new here and this is my first "real" post besides on my introduction thread. It's such a tough issue, and therefore I have to play it safe and sit on the fence on this one.

Although even at that, I have to admit while I think some people are so sick and not worth the waste of space, something inside me cries out.... that two wrongs don't make a right.

[Parker]

I'm new here too but getting more confident. I don't have a problem with the death penalty. If there is an absolutely guilty person on the receiving end.

If there's any doubt about the person's guilt, I don't think DP should be available. Once they're dead, you can't bring them back.

[PhoenixTheory]

I would believe in the death penalty, I wish that I could. However, there are too many unethical police, states attorney's, and "credible witnesses" ( a term used for a police snitch as well)....that lie, fabricate evidence, twist evidence around, hide documentation which could help the defence, win in court when they battle at the side bar when they really should not have....and there are a ton of rules for court that aren't fair sometimes, because it could maybe clear a person that was innocent.

So, what do we do? Call the people executed unfairly a casualty of war? I find that hard to swallow, especialy if I was innocent behind bars in death row.

What is fair? What is not? No one can decide. Someone like Scott Peterson got the death penalty, yet everything that convicted him was circumstancial evidence. If you go on his web site, there are some really strong, and I mean STRONG things to indicate he might not have done this. Yet we never look past the girl friend issue. Scum bag...does not make murderer.
We think we know it all, were sure of it because such programs as Nancy Grace walk us thru their version. They nightly fill our heads. I'm ure Caylee Anthony is guilty because of tabloid shows. Yet I have to remind my self on occasion that I thought the same of Scott Peterson untill one day I investigated his web site by the familly. I am not so sure anymore. So much evidence failed to be told in court, so much evidence not yet found out during the trial. The time lines sort of blow you away....to his side. "This wasn't served properly, that wasn't said well enough, that was not allowed because of an objection...why should we not hear it all? Is this not someones life?" Some people can't afford expert witnesses, others can. Do they get freed, and the others get death?
Some have smart bright lawyers, highly experienced, others have lawyers we think are smart in appearance yet they are limited in experience and resources. Where do we draw the lines?

I'd like to put them all to death, yet what is fair, and what is not fair? Some do the same crime, and even worse on how they killed the person....they get life, and the other gets death?

It is also very easy to accidently kill a person in a fight, and heated moment. So many variables come into play. They can hit their head wrong, you can hold a gun on them yet not mean to kill them, yet somehow in the adrenaline rush one snaps. The police determine you premedatated it, because you tried to clean up the crime, or you maybe threatened them earlier on...yet in truth you were just spouting off at the mouth. Does that person deserve death, while the person who calculaed a deliberate trap to kill gets life?
What is premeditated in reality. women in Maryland got life, she told her husband that if he did this or that one more time...she'd kill him" Have we not all said that in the past? Even in front of people because we didn't mean it, just wanted to prove our point. Well, they got into a squable, he grabbed her arm, she pushed him away, he tripped, fell, had the barbeque pit fire catch his clothes on fire and he died from burns. Did she really mean to kill him? So, I don't believe we can really justify the death penalty.
Not in the type of society we have. Not when the rules are not the same for everyone, and not when we can't trust ALL of those asking for the death penalty involved in each case.:shrug:.

[INGASON14]

I would believe in the death penalty, I wish that I could. However, there are too many unethical police, states attorney's, and "credible witnesses" ( a term used for a police snitch as well)....that lie, fabricate evidence, twist evidence around, hide documentation which could help the defence, win in court when they battle at the side bar when they really should not have....and there are a ton of rules for court that aren't fair sometimes, because it could maybe clear a person that was innocent.

So, what do we do? Call the people executed unfairly a casualty of war? I find that hard to swallow, especialy if I was innocent behind bars in death row.

What is fair? What is not? No one can decide. Someone like Scott Peterson got the death penalty, yet everything that convicted him was circumstancial evidence. If you go on his web site, there are some really strong, and I mean STRONG things to indicate he might not have done this. Yet we never look past the girl friend issue. Scum bag...does not make murderer.
We think we know it all, were sure of it because such programs as Nancy Grace walk us thru their version. They nightly fill our heads. I'm ure Caylee Anthony is guilty because of tabloid shows. Yet I have to remind my self on occasion that I thought the same of Scott Peterson untill one day I investigated his web site by the familly. I am not so sure anymore. So much evidence failed to be told in court, so much evidence not yet found out during the trial. The time lines sort of blow you away....to his side. "This wasn't served properly, that wasn't said well enough, that was not allowed because of an objection...why should we not hear it all? Is this not someones life?" Some people can't afford expert witnesses, others can. Do they get freed, and the others get death?
Some have smart bright lawyers, highly experienced, others have lawyers we think are smart in appearance yet they are limited in experience and resources. Where do we draw the lines?

I'd like to put them all to death, yet what is fair, and what is not fair? Some do the same crime, and even worse on how they killed the person....they get life, and the other gets death?

It is also very easy to accidently kill a person in a fight, and heated moment. So many variables come into play. They can hit their head wrong, you can hold a gun on them yet not mean to kill them, yet somehow in the adrenaline rush one snaps. The police determine you premedatated it, because you tried to clean up the crime, or you maybe threatened them earlier on...yet in truth you were just spouting off at the mouth. Does that person deserve death, while the person who calculaed a deliberate trap to kill gets life?
What is premeditated in reality. women in Maryland got life, she told her husband that if he did this or that one more time...she'd kill him" Have we not all said that in the past? Even in front of people because we didn't mean it, just wanted to prove our point. Well, they got into a squable, he grabbed her arm, she pushed him away, he tripped, fell, had the barbeque pit fire catch his clothes on fire and he died from burns. Did she really mean to kill him? So, I don't believe we can really justify the death penalty.
Not in the type of society we have. Not when the rules are not the same for everyone, and not when we can't trust ALL of those asking for the death penalty involved in each case.:shrug:.



Excellent post Phoenix, I agree to an to a point. DNA has to come into play on death penalty cases. To me thought would be a convicting factor. Eye witnesses can be mistaken but DNA is harder to disprove. Our jails are getting over crowded with violent criminals and they are getting light sentences or they spend twenty years in jail and get out and commit another offense. When is enough enough. John Couey should not sit on death row for 20 years before he is put to death. Executions should be carried out quickly. If they have circumstantial evidence then the DP should not even be on the table. I do know thaat you can be convicted on CE alone and would not want the DP in these cases because then again an innocent person could be put to death and then the real killer found.