Are you pro or anti?

[The R]

Thanks. That's really kind of you. :) I read a lot more than write. Maybe because Betty Broderick came from a wealthy background she wasn't given the same treatment as Aileen Wuornos?

Thats very possible Parker. I think there is a disparity between the judgements of white collar people and blue collar people. That being said I really would like to see some of the laws made clearer so that we could have a more equal justice system. I also read here a lot but please jump in whenever you feel like it. You do bring some interesting points up.


I totally agree that class bias exists in the administration of the DP.

ALLMO,
R

[Parker]

I totally agree that class bias exists in the administration of the DP.

ALLMO,
R

Well then, why doesn't the justice system do something to change that bias?

Where you come from shouldn't make any difference.

[The R]

Well then, why doesn't the justice system do something to change that bias?

Where you come from shouldn't make any difference.

I think some would argue that it's not the role of the CJ system to mete out penalties in a uniform manner.

I agree that where you come from shouldn't make any difference but it clearly does. While each case is different, I believe the stats show that some that belong to certain ethnic and/or socioeconomic groups are clearly executed via the DP more than the affluent.

ALLMO,
R

[Parker]

I think some would argue that it's not the role of the CJ system to mete out penalties in a uniform manner.

I agree that where you come from shouldn't make any difference but it clearly does. While each case is different, I believe the stats show that some that belong to certain ethnic and/or socioeconomic groups are clearly executed via the DP more than the affluent.

ALLMO,
R

But it shouldn't be that way. I'm sure you agree. One rule of law for everyone. No matter what their color, race, religion.

[The R]

But it shouldn't be that way. I'm sure you agree. One rule of law for everyone. No matter what their color, race, religion.


When looking at the CJ system here, there are ideals and realities. I'm not sure I'd agree with one punishment for all. There are often extenuating circumstances and some crimes can be more heinous in nature although they might appear the same.

However, I do believe consideration should be given to not administering the DP - or even incarceration - to any one segment of society more than another, that's for sure.

Politics often plays a really big role in proceedings, just look at Butch Nifong and that mess he created just because he wanted to be re-elected. Of course, in the end, justice has been somewhat served in that situation. It's up to us to change what we see problems with. I for one am a proponent of reform in the way we elect prosecutors and feel we should look at changing how prosecutors come into office. There needs to be some oversight as well.

And I'd have to say that with its flaws that we in the US have one of the better CJ systems in the world, period. In some so called 'advanced' European countries defendants are presumed guilty until they prove otherwise.


ALLMO,
R

[avengingangel]

I'm pro - but what's known as a 'wowie' type in that I don't believe all intentional killing is murder and I don't believe all murders are equally heinous.

For the worst ones I'd definitely execute the offender!

Yes, I also have personal reasons for supporting it.

[CatsVa]

Im pro
i'm all for it

[Angeline]

In Mm country, such as all over Europe, the Commonealth, and any other places, DP had been abolished, and I think it is a good thing. Many things have been abolished as civilization advances : torture, drawing and quartering, hanging, burning alive, and other horrible things, then public executions, and then death penalty altogether.

the last man executed in France, that was in 1976, and his name was Christian Ranucci, a guy in his early 20's, accused of the rape and murder of a 9 years old girl. And after he was dead....journalists found out that the police had probably got the wrong guy! And he's far from being the onl one wrongly executed.

This caused such an uproar that DP was abolished in 1981. It already had been long before in Holland, Scandinavia, etc, countries which are not particularly known for violence.

To my opinion (but I want to be clear : I respect ALL opinions, except people who favor torture ad lynching, this is disgusting) DP is useless because it doesn't prevent further crime : it never stopped other criminals to kill and never anyone was prevented from killing for fear to be executed. In countries where DP still exists, serial killers, child abusers, and other evil people continue same as ever.

Ever since DP was abolished in France, there haven't been more criminals, and serial killers exist, but are not very numerous, and they existed before;

I think it would be more useful to keep the most evil of criminals locked up for life, never to be released, like the Australians do. I don't approve either of French law, who can't keep someone in jail for more than 30 years : imagine a mad killer who began at 20, at 50 he is set free, alive and well and ready to do it again.

I think what would be really useful is keep them in and never let them free : it is worse than death, in a way. But more to the point, psychiatrists could study their minds, maybe understand what makes a normal looking person kill, and hopefully find a cure, or at least an explanation, and save further lives in this way.

Another reason is that, if the killer is kept alive, his victim continues to live in his memory, and haunt him for the rest of his days, which I hope very long, so that he can understand and begin to feel some empathy.

Last but not least, I am not a particularly religious woman, but I know something ; God gives life, He only can take it back. It is not for us to decide.

Human Justice can NOT be fair. See for example, Eilene Wuornos, she was executed, but in her last videos, she was clealy insane, they killed a very, very sick woman. And killers who had done much worse than her were not sentenced to death, it all depends on human frailties, the judges, the jury's moods, the talent of the defense, etc...

Gertrude Banizewski, to my opinion, did much worse : she tortured and eventually killed 16 years old Sylvia Likens, lead a gang of teenagers, including her own kids, to torture and beat Sylvia in the most unspeakable manner. SHE got away with 20 years. Why? Why can simple humans decide who can live, who can die?

And believe me, I am talking as someone whose own daughter was killed on the road by a drunkard, so I know what it is to scream bloody murder. Yes, I wished the man dead! Yes, I could have killed him with my own hands!

But this would have been vengeance, not justice. And in our civilized world, Justice and vengeance are two different things.

Justice has to be done without passion, anger or hatred.

[RayStar]

Anti here. I will admit some cases have pushed me very close to the edge.

[Marian Paroo]

Anti here. I will admit some cases have pushed me very close to the edge.

With you on that. Both points.

[javahog]

I am pro, but gender, class and race issues do concern me.

I feel like there should be some system that oversees the DP, like a grand jury type of thing where a jury decides only if the guilty person merits the DP by looking over the evidence and testimony, never seeing or hearing from the defendant, and the evidence redacted as to gender. Blind justice.

I wonder if having a jury or a judge decide on death after having been locked in the room with the defendant for months is fair. If the defense attorney has bad taste in clothes for the client or the client is "cute", that should not affect the verdict on death or life without parole...imo.

I might add, by saying I am "Pro", I am not all for it. It is a very serious thing, to take a life...very sober. But I believe necessary and justified, in the right circumstances.

[wind149]

On NATGEO last night on their Explorer series, they featured the Huntsville TX prison on there which is where the death house is and it was about death row inmates that only had a matter of days or weeks before their executions and if this was meant to sway people away from the DP, it only bolstered my belief in the DP because the three losers they featured deserved to die for what they did and then some. The first whiner up at bat, along with two other scumbags, broke into a 85 year old woman's house with the intent to rob her and when they don't find much to steal, they decided to shoot her right between the eyes! And he had the balls to sit there and say that he was not the same guy that did that heinous crime as he has been on DR for 15 years and he has changed! He is 36 hours away from being executed and says that he does not deserve to die for what he did because he is not a babyraper or a drug dealer?? Apparently, shooting a terrified old woman between the eyes is not much of a crime to him??? His lawyer tried to get a stay, he even has a girlfriend who started out as a bleeding heart pen pal, but of course she FALLS IN LOVE WITH HIM and she is spending big bucks for the lawyer, but it is to no avail, and he is executed.


The next whiner is the worst of the lot! He stomps a woman to death, rapes her before and after she dies and get this, he is AFRAID THAT HE WILL FEEL PAIN WHEN THOSE NEEDLES KICK IN??? Sits right there and whines and snivels that he is afraid of pain, that the state of TX is MURDERING HIM???? He is afraid that they won't give him enough of the first drug, which is the one that makes sure they FEEL NOTHING and he will feel the pain of his body becoming paralyzed and will feel his heart stopping??? He is a huge black man, probably weighs 300 lbs and stomps to death a 90 lb woman who he thinks reneges on a deal, trading drugs for sex, and according to her friend, she never promised him anything, and he goes out looking for her, finds her, whereas he starts kicking her with a steel toed boot, rapes her, and then finishes stomping on her till her face is no longer recognizable and then this twisted f*ck rapes her corpse and he is worried about his own ass??? And sits there and sobs like a baby that he is does not deserve to die because he is mentally ill??? And he has two old ladies that give a crap about this POS, who come to comfort him in his last seconds on earth, one whose own son was executed too for murder and she has the gall to say that she does not believe in the DP and is a GOD FEARING WOMAN??? Her son murdered a child, but she feels he should have been able to be rehabilitated?? That all TX does is execute people??? Now the family of that girl comes in to see him die for what he did and they felt after watching him just appear to go to sleep, were not comforted by that and neither would I be. He got his wish, he died peacefully.

The third whiner killed a man in a robbery and this one too snivels that he is a changed man, a man who does not deserve to die either and whines that he has not seen his daughter since she was three and he has the balls to blame it on the state of TX??? When he brutally killed the man he robbed for all of $60 dollars was he thinking about his daughter then??? His sister thinks that he should not die either because his daughter loves him and that she should be able to be in his life and you can tell that they too, are low lifes. He has some bleeder for a lawyer who is trying to get him clemency or a stay because he is borderline retarded???

Well the Gov of TX does not see it that way and he too is executed and what was interesting about this show, was after each execution, their bodies are on a gurney in a room and family and friends were allowed to go and cry over their corpses. And they all looked like they just laid down and went to sleep and I felt cheated, because I expected them to at least have somewhat of a grimace of pain on their faces and instead, they looked very peaceful and I am all for the chair coming back. In the 20's and 30's in Huntsville, the executions were carried out in a hallway next to the cells of the condemned and they had a full view of watching their fellow death row citizens dixie fry to the chair and to me this sounds awesome! Kinda like, your turn next pal!!!! Crime would go way down!!! LI is a joke and I think more so after watching that show last night. And at the last execution, there were a handful of protesters out in front of the prison, whining that executions are legal murders and one said something about the warden not liking the DP, well he would be wrong. The warden is a straight shooter, and it does not bother him a bit to execute someone as he has personally overseen over 300 executions in his 40 year career and he does indeed believe that the DP is warranted and is glad his state has it and if every state would only think like TX, the prisons would not be full of rapists and child rapists and murderers sitting on the taxpayer's, whining how innocent they all are, having legal counsel, medical and dental, cable TV and gym equipment, and visits and mail and phone.

DR inmates in TX do not have TV, or AC, they can have mail and canteen, one shower every other day, they can have lawyer visits, one hour out in a kennel and one approved visit approaching their die date, basically, they get nothing compared to IN, where DR inmates can have cats in their cells with them and I found this to be disgusting, allowed a pet on DR??? They also have cable TV and AC and a library cart is wheeled down the cell block, they can have canteen where they can buy sodas and candy, hell, this is better then some poor people who are not criminals get!! So if you all get a chance to see this, it will repeat again, and maybe some of you who are against the DP, will see for yourself why these scumbags are on death row and what put them there and listen to them whine and snivel as their date approaches and not a one of these dirtbags said they were sorry to the commentator, except while he was dying the one who robbed the old man said he was truly sorry, but the family did not buy it and neither did I. I felt gratification knowing that they are no longer sucking up precious tax dollars, TX has better plans for their money than letting these scumbags sit for decades and it was almost like watching them die right in front of me and I wish to God I could be sitting there the nights they execute Couey and that other scumbag Joseph Smith.

[Tazzyluv]

wind 149, those are good points you brought out.

I felt gratification knowing that they are no longer sucking up precious tax dollars, TX has better plans for their money than letting these scumbags sit for decades
And blood for blood is the only way to put a stop to murderers.

what about this; murderers are allowed to live in prision, and in there they murder more people, both prisoners and staff?

[Tazzyluv]

Many have asked about laws and God.

I believe that Christ is the New Testament...


:read: yes but many Old Testamnt laws still apply, such as no bestiality, no adultery, etc.

so G d's Law that says "Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." still applies.

and this law was given before there were any jews.

[Marian Paroo]

:read: yes but many Old Testamnt laws still apply, such as no bestiality, no adultery, etc.

so G d's Law that says "Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." still applies.

and this law was given before there were any jews.

??? But the OT was recorded by a Jew, and if there was no record of the law before Moses and Exodus it wasn't known.

There are far to many errors in verdicts to have a dp.

Some of those forensic programs have also give time to people released from jail after many years because of retesting of old evidence following DNA advances, never mind newer evidence.

And this is only science, not the prejudice that is part of the system.

[Tazzyluv]

There are far to many errors in verdicts to have a dp.

...DNA advances, ... newer evidence.



Yes but more accountability from the judicial community would reduce those errors. They are the source of that problem, not the death penalty.

making them accountable is what's needed, not eliminating the death penalty.

I disagree with the idea that all murderers should enjoy a long life just bcz some are wrongfully convicted. where's the justice for the victims?

Many murderers continue murdering guards & others in prison, and they often have people on the outside murdered from prison. so that means that removing the dp from them has caused the deaths of even more ppl.

[Tazzyluv]

[B]??? But the OT was recorded by a Jew, and if there was no record of the law before Moses and Exodus it wasn't known.



yes, friend, the dp Law was known before Moses, as it says, G d spoke this command to Noah. laws were passed down verbally to successive generations, & they were most likely written, too.

[Marian Paroo]

Fine, but it was recorded by a Jew.

And if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody hears it...yada, yada.

Most Jews I know are anti DP, anyway.

[Tazzyluv]

Most Jews I know are anti DP, anyway.

They simply are in violation of these judgements of G d:

Lev 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

Ez 3:18 "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning [DP as deterrent], nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

Prov. 18:5 "It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment."

De 10:12 "And now, Israel, what doth the L rd thy God require of thee, but to fear the L rd thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of the L rd, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? "

what about this issue?
Many murderers continue murdering guards & others in prison, and they often have people on the outside murdered from prison. so that means that removing the dp from them has caused the deaths of even more ppl.

:rose:

[Marian Paroo]

They simply are in violation of these judgements of G d:



What can I tell you?

:shrug:

That's the crowd I run with.:D

They were also at the demo last night at Rabin Square in memory of the kids killed at the gay center last week, and nobody was calling for the DP for the killer.:cool:

[Tazzyluv]

i read about that. very sad.

"How far is Heaven?"
:shrug:

[Marian Paroo]

Not clear to me what you're finding sad. Sorry, I need another cuppa coffee.

It's Sunday, first day of the work week here.

[Tazzyluv]

Not clear to me what you're finding sad.

the teen murders

[Marian Paroo]

the teen murders

Okay, thanks.

I thought maybe you were upset that there were no calls for the dp at the gathering.

Weren't sure how gay friendly you are either, given your feelings about the OT.

[Tazzyluv]

Okay, thanks.

I thought maybe you were upset that there were no calls for the dp at the gathering.

Weren't sure how gay friendly you are either, given your feelings about the OT.

i'm friendly but i don't want to fail to show someone that they are turned aside from G d's Law. (no sodomy, etc.)
:punch: :beer:

[Marian Paroo]

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann

[taboo]

All life is precious and taken for granted . I dont think people have the right to decide when someone dies at all . I get very angry when I hear about these killers that go around killing innocent people because they cant handle who they themselves are or once were , ( mostly victims themselves or a product of their surroundings ) . I was so angry when I heard that case about the horrible mother and step father who abused " baby P " it was her responsibility to love that boy with all her heart and protect him . Over here we dont have death penalty . For people like that though they should so bring it back . Worthless scums of the earth !

On the other hand I think the death penalty doesnt solve anything keep them in prison lingering untill they die their in the old age . Maybe some way along the way they will actually begin to feel the strain of what they really did but then again some never do . Its a tough one !!!

[Marian Paroo]

Over here we dont have death penalty . For people like that though they should so bring it back . Worthless scums of the earth !



I know that in England the DP was dropped exactly because it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt, but only after the execution, that the last man executed in England did not commit the murder of which he was accussed.

The real murderer was a serial killer who lived next door. The names are on the tip of my tongue, and they made a movie about it, the title of the movie was the address where the serial killer lived, and where they found the bodies.

[taboo]

I know that in England the DP was dropped exactly because it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt, but only after the execution, that the last man executed in England did not commit the murder of which he was accussed.

The real murderer was a serial killer who lived next door. The names are on the tip of my tongue, and they made a movie about it, the title of the movie was the address where the serial killer lived, and where they found the bodies.



Do you mean Fred And Rosemary West ??

[Marian Paroo]

10 Rillington Place. The murderer was named Christie, the poor snook who was executed for one of the murders was named Evans. The Wests are a recent case, aren't they? After the DP was abolished in England?

[taboo]

Yes i did think it was too late by them execution was no more around . That couple was creepy as hell not to mention EVIL!

[SaraSidle]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2009/10/04/kaye.execution.coverup.cnn


Now here is an interesting video.