The Pineapple Issue

[Tober]

I'm starting this thread so the pineapple can be discussed here, as it tends to be brought up in other threads, interrupting the thought and flow of discussion of those threads.

[Sprocket]

The undigested pineapple is clear evidence that contradicts information from "primary source" John & Patsy's statements that JonBenet went straight to bed when they got home. This is physical evidence, that has never been adequately explained by the Ramseys.

She didn't eat pineapple at the Whites; it's been shown to be the same pineapple that was in the bowl on the counter. Why would Patsy and John misrepresent the last hours of their daughter's life? Why would they lie about feeding her this pineapple?

[Tober]

IMO, the pineapple represents the first "problem issue" for the intruder theory. It calls into question John's and Patsy's claims that a sleeping JonBenet was put to bed when they arrived home.

[Zoey]

The undigested pineapple is clear evidence that contradicts information from "primary source" John & Patsy's statements that JonBenet went straight to bed when they got home. This is physical evidence, that has never been adequately explained by the Ramseys.

She didn't eat pineapple at the Whites; it's been shown to be the same pineapple that was in the bowl on the counter. Why would Patsy and John misrepresent the last hours of their daughter's life? Why would they lie about feeding her this pineapple?


Could you please provide the link that proves the pineapple in JB's intestine is the exact same pineapple found in the bowl at the Ramseys on the table. Thank you.

[bullmoose]

Sprocket: could you show me where the pineapple found in Jonbenet was decided to be the exact same pineapple as found in the bowl-link please?

[KingCoyote]

Well, I guess I will start sounding like a broken record but for the nth time. I will advance my theory about the pineapple again since we now have a thread specifically for it.

IMO...the pineapple was brought by a guest at the 12/23 party in the guest's container. At the end of the party, the guest transferred the pineapple to one of the Ramsey's bowls without touching the bowl, put plastic wrap on the bowl, put the bowl in the Ramsey's big refrigerator without touching the porcelain bowl itself thereby leaving no prints of the guest. On Christmas morning PR touches the sides of the porcelain when moving the bowl in the refrigerator to get the ingredients to make their usual Christmas breakfast which leaves her prints on it.

On Christmas afternoon Burke comes along looking for a snack because its a long time between Christmas breakfast and the Whites party, sees the bowl in the refrigerator, likes what he sees in it, takes it out, removes the plastic wrap and discards it because that darn plastic wrap clings to itself, pulls out a glass, makes him some makeshift iced tea, which PR has said he likes, leaves the bowl and the glass on the table and goes on to the FW party while nobody notices the bowl and glass since they aren't having meals in the breakfast room that evening or the next morning. This puts both PR and BR's prints on the items, accounts for the strange glass of tea and could account for the white stuff appearing in the bowl of fruit: it's mold that is forming after fruit sitting out in a warm house since Christmas afternoon until whenever the Crime Scene Photos are taken. (Or it could be just a funny reflection of the flash from the camera.)

Both Burke and the guest who brought the pineapple to the party simply remain quiet as they want to sit this one out and not get any more involved than they already are by being in the house on or close to those fateful days.

I am turning off the record player. :seeya: (at least for a while)

KingCoyote

[bullmoose]

To KingCoyote: I do not know if the scenario that you posted is correct or not, but I think it is a plausible one. I enjoy your ideas and posts.:seeya:

[Louisadelmar]

[...]
Both Burke and the guest who brought the pineapple to the party simply remain quiet as they want to sit this one out and not get any more involved than they already are by being in the house on or close to those fateful days.

I am turning off the record player. :seeya: (at least for a while)

KingCoyote


Based on Patsy's 1997 interview this appears to be who was at the party:

Fleet and Pricilla and their two children, her sister Allison and Allison's boyfriend, Allison’s daughter Heather. Glen and Susan Stine and their son Doug , Susan’s mother was there and Glen’s mother . Patsy’s father and the Fernies, Joe and Betty Barnhill & their boarder, Mr. & Mrs. Santa Claus, Linda Hoffman and her daughter.

23? people.

My biggest problem with your theory is the idea someone would deliberately withhold this information and/or it wouldn't have come out in interviews. At a minimum someone would have said "And so and so brought some pineapple."

[thewhitewitch1]

It may have happened like KC said or it may not.
His scenerio didn't include when JB ate the pineapple.
We do have an idea of the time frame of when she would have eaten it, which would have been some time Christmas night. I find it difficult to believe that Patsy or John would not have noticed that bowl sitting out all day. I also find it difficult to believe that neither of them would have noticed it during their party. Also, Burke was not especially fond of pineapple.
I had to laugh when the OP was asked to provide a link proving that the pineapple in JBs intestines was the same in the bowl. That was ridiculous.
The time frame for her to have eaten pineapple and her death very strongly indicates that she ate the pineapple in her own home and there she was, and there's the pineapple.
I don't see how there can be any dispute about it. IMO

[LindaA]

I'm so glad to see this thread as it was the first one I started when I first came to this board. It was combined with several other threads about other troublesome items of evidence, and I was always sorry the mods decided to do that as I think the pineapple need its own thread. Personally, for me, it has been the thing that kept me from being a true IDI for a long time. However, I am interested in some theories I have seen posted here which could account for it.

[Sprocket]

Sprocket: could you show me where the pineapple found in Jonbenet was decided to be the exact same pineapple as found in the bowl-link please?

This is common knowledge, a fact that should not be disputed at this late a date.

Page 192 ST book, hardback:

It was on that table that police had found the porcelain bowl containing fresh pineapple and bearing the fingerprints of Patsy and Burke. To me, that connected Patsy to the pineapple, and pineapple was found in JonBenet's stomach, and one plus one equals two. I came to believe Patsy had given JonBenet pineapple that night.

Our experts studied the pineapple in the stomach and reported that is was fresh-cut pineapple, consistent down to the rind with what had been found in the bowl. It was solid proof that it wasn't canned pineapple, and what were the chances that an intruder would have brought in a fresh pineapple to cut up for his victim?

Fact. Consistent, "down to the rind."

[Louisadelmar]

I'm so glad to see this thread as it was the first one I started when I first came to this board. It was combined with several other threads about other troublesome items of evidence, and I was always sorry the mods decided to do that as I think the pineapple need its own thread. Personally, for me, it has been the thing that kept me from being a true IDI for a long time. However, I am interested in some theories I have seen posted here which could account for it.

I was kind of hoping Elvislives would wade in on this issue but she hasn't been posting much lately.

[KingCoyote]

thewhitewitch1 and Louisadelmar:

Just a few more comments to tie up some loose ends. I don't think the pineapple was in one of the Ramsey bowls during the party. I hypothesize that it was put in their bowl as people cleaned up on their way home. Someone just didn't want to take it with them. It wouldn't have been particularly noticeable by anyone during the party, just another bowl of food.

From the food I saw on the table from the pictures of that party, I not sure anyone may have realized what was there and what was not or who did bring what. 23 people could bring 23 different things, at least, and some of those things could get overlooked. Every party I have been to like that has had more food than I could even look at much less eat and there would be no way I could remember all of what was brought specifically by whom. I see the point that someone surely could have said...."oh yeah....so and so brought that"...I just don't know. Maybe it was one of the first things brought and nobody asked about who brought it. Maybe it was brought at the same time as a lot of other stuff and nobody noticed.

As far as the Ramseys not seeing it during the morning of 12/26, I would be surprised if anyone specifically remembers anything about that madhouse. (Actually I don't think there are good "minutes" of that morning unless, of course FW has some.) There is a ton of controversy as to what all did happen. The bowl and glass, if they were in the same place during that day as they were in the picture and looking at the floor plan of the Ramsey house, leads me to believe that the breakfast room and table wasn't exactly "ground zero" for all of the activities.

As to Burke not being particularly fond of pineapple I cannot comment on his likes and dislikes but sometimes a child or anyone for that matter, if hungry enough, will eat the first thing he/she could find especially if pineapple is the quickest and maybe only option in the front of the refrigerator. Additionally, I see the Kleenex box as being something a child would use as a convenient napkin as opposed to getting a true napkin from whereever they are stored.

As to how JBR gets to it is the $64,000 question. If it was in the position as shown in the pictures, it looks like it would be accessible if she climbed up on a chair and further accessible for her to simply reach in and pluck a piece or two out without touching the bowl. Childern do have a tendency to eat with their fingers.

As to the series of events that leads JBR to the breakfast room is a whole 'nuther matter. First she has to eat the pineapple roughly 1 and 1/2 to 2 hours in advance of dying. We roughly know that. I am not a gastroenterologist so I have no real idea. So if she died at lets say, 2 AM which could corresponds to time frame of the alleged scream heard by Melody Stanton then she consumed the pineapple at Midnight to 12:30 AM. The question is: What is she doing up at that time? Could she have awakened on her own, gone downstairs for her "special Santa visit," played with some toys and encountered the killer an hour or two later? Could she have been awakened by PR, used the bathroom, then have gone downstairs, had the pineapple and encountered the killer an hour or two later. Could she have eaten the pineapple as a snack immediately upon arriving home, which contradicts everything the Rs say, and she dies at 11 PM or so. (That contradicts the "scream timeline" as well.) I just don't know. I could go on and on (like I sometimes do...lol) with alternatives.

Hope that makes it clearer.

KingCoyote

[Tober]

In addition to claiming she didn't feed JonBenet the pineapple and has no idea how the bowl of pineapple got there, Patsy states that JonBenet wouldn't have gotten a snack like that for herself. She also states that she had never known Burke to have gotten a snack like that for his sister in the middle of the night. Had he, Patsy stated, she would have heard the cupboards banging, etc. IMO, based on Patsy's own statements, the probability that JonBenet had gotten it for herself is very low, as is the probability that Burke got it for her. The probability that Burke got it for himself and JonBenet had some is somewhat low based on Patsy's statement that she would have heard the cupboards banging and her statement that Burke wouldn't have gotten a snack like that for himself, he had a sweet tooth, didn't care for pineapple that much, and would have went for chocolate. It can be reasonably inferred that someone had to have gotten the pineapple for JonBenet, as Patsy stated she'd be unable to reach that bowl on her own (which implies the pineapple wasn't in the bowl in the refrigerator). Therein lies the problem: Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl.

[thewhitewitch1]

In addition to claiming she didn't feed JonBenet the pineapple and has no idea how the bowl of pineapple got there, Patsy states that JonBenet wouldn't have gotten a snack like that for herself. She also states that she had never known Burke to have gotten a snack like that for his sister in the middle of the night. Had he, Patsy stated, she would have heard the cupboards banging, etc. IMO, based on Patsy's own statements, the probability that JonBenet had gotten it for herself is very low, as is the probability that Burke got it for her. The probability that Burke got it for himself and JonBenet had some is somewhat low based on Patsy's statement that she would have heard the cupboards banging and her statement that Burke wouldn't have gotten a snack like that for himself, he had a sweet tooth, didn't care for pineapple that much, and would have went for chocolate. It can be reasonably inferred that someone had to have gotten the pineapple for JonBenet, as Patsy stated she'd be unable to reach that bowl on her own (which implies the pineapple wasn't in the bowl in the refrigerator). Therein lies the problem: Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl.


Though I am an RDI and very much believe that Patsy was involved, to be fair, Patsy simply could have gone along with the suggestion that JB could have gotten up and got the pineapple for herself. She could have lied about it so it would enforce the "intruder" theory that perhaps JB ran into the killer, yet she didn't.

[Tober]

Though I am an RDI and very much believe that Patsy was involved, to be fair, Patsy simply could have gone along with the suggestion that JB could have gotten up and got the pineapple for herself.

It's also possible that by Patsy saying that she didn't give JonBenet the pineapple and that Burke and/or JonBenet wouldn't have gotten it, that she was attempting to imply/suggest that an intruder had to have gotten it for JonBenet.

[elvislives]

Hey all, I've been pretty swamped lately and haven't had much time , but thought I'd weigh in on the pineapple mystery.
First off, it IS possible to do a dna profile of the pineapple in the small intestine and compare it to that in the bowl and determine whether they came from the same plant. That said, I highly doubt this was done since it is almost assumed that they are from the same source. I dont think anyone believes that an intruder brought ANOTHER pineapple which he fed to JB, then took the leftovers with him when he left.
Secondly, I have a household that runs somewhat similar to the Ramseys....i.e. since my spouse and I both work full time, have children, and pets and travel a bit....we have a lot of outside help coming and going from our house. I also have a large refrigerator and often find things in there and have no idea where they came from. So when people say "how on earth could PR not know there was pineapple in her frig??....or how could she not notice a bowl of pineapple on her table?? That proves she is lying or covering up...I just don't agree with that. If PR lived in a very small house with little outside interference, that might be a logical line of reasoning, but under the circumstances I don't find her lack of knowledge at all unusual.
Also, I think PR is a bit of a kook---but I don't think she is stupid. Someone speculated that she denied any knowlege of the pineapple because she had already gone on the record saying that JB was asleep when they got home and therefore couldnt go back and change her story.If that were the case, then I think she would have lied and said, yes maybe JB woke up and fixed herself a snack. Or maybe Burke fixed her a snack. But she didn't...she said that neither of these possiblilites was likely...and she wasn;t questioned about these habits until after she knew about the pineapple.
Also, I think it would be VERY risky for her to lie about something that Burke could refute....THEN allow him to be interviewed by the BPD for 6 hours shortly after the crime. If she was going to lie about things that Burke could contradict, I don't think she would allow the police to interview him. And if she lied about JB being asleep, then realized she had been caught in a lie since they found pineapple in the intestine...I think she would lead the cops to believe that JB may indeed have fixed herself a snack. JMO

[Tober]

John and Patsy claim JonBenet was asleep and put to bed when they arrived home + Pineapple in JonBenet's upper intestine consumed after they arrived home but before she was killed + Bowl of pineapple on table with Patsy's fingerprints on bowl + Patsy denies giving JonBenet the pineapple and says someone would had to have gotten it for her = ?

[shill]

It can be reasonably inferred that someone had to have gotten the pineapple for JonBenet, as Patsy stated she'd be unable to reach that bowl on her own (which implies the pineapple wasn't in the bowl in the refrigerator). Therein lies the problem: Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl.It implies that if the bowl wasn't in the refrigerator, it would be stored some where out of reach of JB.

Therein lies the problem: Burke's fingerprints are on the bowl and glass.

[shill]

We do not know her time of death, hence we do not know when she ate pineapple.
End of story.
Are primary source tells us she ate pineapple after they put her to bed.

If Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl make her guilty of feeding JB pineapple, then Burke's fingerprints on the bowl and glass would make him a witness to Patsy feeding JB pineapple.

The miss matched spoon and bowl, mismatched glass for tea, and the Kleenex for napkins point to the work of a child. Again I argue that this scene was created by Burke. What would be important to know, is whose fingerprints are on the tea bag tag?

[Tober]

Burke's fingerprints are on the bowl and glass.

Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl too, but she denies getting the pineapple for JonBenet. She also says JonBenet wouldn't have gotten it for herself, but denies (based on her statements) that John or Burke would have gotten it for her.

[Louisadelmar]

Hey all, I've been pretty swamped lately and haven't had much time , but thought I'd weigh in on the pineapple mystery.
First off, it IS possible to do a dna profile of the pineapple in the small intestine and compare it to that in the bowl and determine whether they came from the same plant. That said, I highly doubt this was done since it is almost assumed that they are from the same source. I dont think anyone believes that an intruder brought ANOTHER pineapple which he fed to JB, then took the leftovers with him when he left.
Secondly, I have a household that runs somewhat similar to the Ramseys....i.e. since my spouse and I both work full time, have children, and pets and travel a bit....we have a lot of outside help coming and going from our house. I also have a large refrigerator and often find things in there and have no idea where they came from. So when people say "how on earth could PR not know there was pineapple in her frig??....or how could she not notice a bowl of pineapple on her table?? That proves she is lying or covering up...I just don't agree with that. [...]

Hi Elvislives -

Thanks for the info - I'm glad someone else thinks it's normal to be a bit vague about what's in the frig. :-)

Any thoughts on the time parameters for when JonBenet could have eaten the pineapple? Many people offer up the standard one to two hours. But then there is this from Lin Wood in ST's depo:

17 Q. You don't recall Dr. Michael
18 Graham taking the position that the pineapple
19 found in JonBenet's digestive system could
20 have been eaten the day before? Does that
21 refresh you in terms of Michael Graham's
22 involvement?

Furhman in his book on the Moxley case suggested 3 hours as a time for the stomach to empty. Could some foods (like the crab) be digested more easily (faster) than the fiber of the pineapple?

Questions, questions, questions...

[KingCoyote]

I am a little confused. Patsy has stated that JBR could not reach the bowls or glasses which would be stored in cabinets above the kitchen counters but I have never heard anyone say that JBR could not reach things in the refrigerator. Go back to my original hypothesis and change it as follows: Burke checks out what is in the bowl when he looks for an afternoon snack; sees that it is pineapple and puts it back in the refrigerator leaving his fingerprint on the porcelain but goes ahead and makes his improvised glass of tea and drinks it at the breakfast room table and leaves it there. That night:JBR got up on her own, went downstairs for a snack, got the bowl out of the refrigerator by herself without touching the porcelain due to the plastic wrap being on it, sat down with the bowl next to the glass Burke had used earlier in the day then she pulls off the plastic wrap, plucks a piece of two out for a snack, grabs a kleenex as a napkin, wads up the plastic wrap up with the napkin, throws them away, leaves the bowl on the table as she goes to her next venture and eventually is confronted by the killer some hour or two later. This eliminates the need for Burke to have a pineapple snack, since he doesn't like pineapple, puts his fingerprints on the bowl, keeps JBR's prints off the bowl and leaves both items on the breakfast room table. PR's prints were already on the bowl from moving the bowl when she made breakfast.

Who Knows? :shrug:

KC = :confused:

You know what?....I forgot the spoon.....oooops!

[Sprocket]

First off, it IS possible to do a dna profile of the pineapple in the small intestine and compare it to that in the bowl and determine whether they came from the same plant. That said, I highly doubt this was done since it is almost assumed that they are from the same source.

Of course they are from the same source. To conclude otherwise is not logical.

The lab determined that it was fresh pineapple, in the stomach and on the counter. It's a good logical conclusion that the pineapple that was found on the counter is the same one she ingested. It was in her home, in a bowl with Patsy's finger prints on the bowl. Child found in the home with undigested pineapple (fresh) in her intestines. Ergo, same pineapple. How difficult is that to "digest" people?

What reason in the world would the lab need, for them to go to the extent of doing a DNA match on a bowl of pineapple? Has it been found in a significant number of cases of child murders in the home that intruders bring fresh fruit/pineapple with them when they plan to kidnap?

It's logical that this is the pineapple that she ate. How could anyone ever possibly conclude that someone brought her some other pineapple that she ate, but it's not the same pineapple that was found on the counter. Sheesh!

There wasn't pineapple at the White's party. Patsy didn't have a party on Christmas day where a bunch of people brought fresh dishes to her house, and left them in the fridge. That idea is pure speculation. The Ramsey's didn't bring leftovers home from the Whites. If they did, they've never mentioned it, nor have the White's ever mentioned it.

[KingCoyote]

I know...maybe JBR grabbed a spoon by making a fist and never touched it with her fingers...then decided not to use it and just plucked a piece out with her fingers......how's that one?

Sprocket:

I don't know who said PR had a party on Christmas Day with people bringing fresh food over but she sure had one on 12/23 where people brought food over and might have left some.

KC

[shill]

Of course they are from the same source. To conclude otherwise is not logical.

The lab determined that it was fresh pineapple, in the stomach and on the counter. It's a good logical conclusion that the pineapple that was found on the counter is the same one she ingested. It was in her home, in a bowl with Patsy's finger prints on the bowl. Child found in the home with undigested pineapple (fresh) in her intestines. Ergo, same pineapple. How difficult is that to "digest" people?

What reason in the world would the lab need, for them to go to the extent of doing a DNA match on a bowl of pineapple? Has it been found in a significant number of cases of child murders in the home that intruders bring fresh fruit/pineapple with them when they plan to kidnap?

It's logical that this is the pineapple that she ate. How could anyone ever possibly conclude that someone brought her some other pineapple that she ate, but it's not the same pineapple that was found on the counter. Sheesh!

There wasn't pineapple at the White's party. Patsy didn't have a party on Christmas day where a bunch of people brought fresh dishes to her house, and left them in the fridge. That idea is pure speculation. The Ramsey's didn't bring leftovers home from the Whites. If they did, they've never mentioned it, nor have the White's ever mentioned it.

I agree. (see signature for response)

[Sprocket]

I know...maybe JBR grabbed a spoon by making a fist and never touched it with her fingers...then decided not to use it and just plucked a piece out with her fingers......how's that one?

Sprocket:

I don't know who said PR had a party on Christmas Day with people bringing fresh food over but she sure had one on 12/23 where people brought food over and might have left some.

KC

Even if that were true, that people left this pineapple on 12/23 in her refrigerator, I find it hard to believe that she didn't know it was there, or didn't know that a guest she invited brought fresh pineapple to her house on 12/23. That would mean she didn't know what food was being served at her own party. Not Patsy.

Patsy herself said that JonBenet would not get this snack herself in the middle of the night and that Burke wouldn't help her get one either. Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl. The bowl was left on the counter, in the home. The pineapple helps to fix an approximate time of death. They can tell by WHERE the pineapple is in her small intestine that she had to have eaten it that evening, and AFTER the White's party.

Carbohydrates eaten by themselves move out of the stomach pretty quickly. Please don't make me "prove" this by digging out my college nutrition books.

[Louisadelmar]

Of course they are from the same source. To conclude otherwise is not logical.

The lab determined that it was fresh pineapple, in the stomach and on the counter. It's a good logical conclusion that the pineapple that was found on the counter is the same one she ingested. It was in her home, in a bowl with Patsy's finger prints on the bowl. Child found in the home with undigested pineapple (fresh) in her intestines. Ergo, same pineapple. How difficult is that to "digest" people?

What reason in the world would the lab need, for them to go to the extent of doing a DNA match on a bowl of pineapple? Has it been found in a significant number of cases of child murders in the home that intruders bring fresh fruit/pineapple with them when they plan to kidnap?

It's logical that this is the pineapple that she ate. How could anyone ever possibly conclude that someone brought her some other pineapple that she ate, but it's not the same pineapple that was found on the counter. Sheesh!

There wasn't pineapple at the White's party. Patsy didn't have a party on Christmas day where a bunch of people brought fresh dishes to her house, and left them in the fridge. That idea is pure speculation. The Ramsey's didn't bring leftovers home from the Whites. If they did, they've never mentioned it, nor have the White's ever mentioned it.

I think it is more likely than not that the pineapple is from the bowl.

On the other hand I would like to know, even if they weren't serving it, did the Whites have pineapple at their house? Did BPD ask? Or did they just ask what was served at the party?

[Louisadelmar]

I know...maybe JBR grabbed a spoon by making a fist and never touched it with her fingers...then decided not to use it and just plucked a piece out with her fingers......how's that one?

Sprocket:

I don't know who said PR had a party on Christmas Day with people bringing fresh food over but she sure had one on 12/23 where people brought food over and might have left some.

KC

Why do you think people brought food on the 23rd?

[KingCoyote]

Sprocket:

I suggest that you go back and read Post #17 by elvislives. I do not know whether you have seen pictures of the food table that was present at the 12/23 party but there appeared to be lots and lots of dishes. Patsy had at least 23 people over (See post # 8 by Louisadelmar) which may have produced 23 different dishes. I doubt Patsy, with her casual household management approach, had a clue what foods were being served. She was probably more interested in what people were wearing.

In reading her Interviews with Law Enforcement she couldn't remember much of what was served at the White's party other than the cracked crab. I also note that the Ramseys had a huge walk-in type refrigerator which was probably 35-45 cubic feet, far, far larger than the average individual owns. I must respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

My personal experience in having and attending parties with 20-30 guests also tells me that I have no way of keeping up with who brought what. I have found things and bowls in my refrigerator and cabinets after holidays that I have no clue where they came from and I am one of the most anal retentive, obsessive compulsive type persons you will ever meet. (Just go read all of my posts and that will tell you something about me.) I just went to a New Year's Eve Party with 30 or so people and I could not believe the different number of dishes we had available. I think someone of JR and PR's status would have had more than people of my status.

My attempts to speculate, as you call them, and hypothesize, as I call them are based on an attempt to follow the evidence. In order analyze the "pineapple" you must find a sequence of events that puts the glass, bowl and spoon as well as the kleenex box on the breakfast room table. The glass must have Burke's fingerprints on it, and have a reason for a tea bag in it. You must source the pineapple, or, in other words, figure out how it got in the Ramsey house. The bowl must have PR and BR's prints on it but not JBR's. JBR must have at least one piece of the pineapple without touching the bowl and more than likely, the spoon. Please give me your step by step analysis and sequence of events that produces the result we have to work with. I am willing to listen to anything that answers the questions about this case. I am sure, unless you were at the Ramsey's house that fateful evening, that you, too, will have to speculate as you call it and hypothesize as I call it.

KingCoyote

[Tober]

Patsy is trying to distance herself from the pineapple issue all together. She is acting as if the pineapple itself is foreign to the home. She even implies that JonBenet may have consumed it at the Whites. She won't even acknowledge that it came from the home. She contends that no one in the home got it for JonBenet and that JonBenet wouldn't have gotten it for herself. She's trying to avoid this pineapple issue as much as possible.

[KingCoyote]

Tober:

There is no question that Patsy is distancing herself from the pineapple. Whether she is lying or telling the truth in order to do that isn't the issue. I just want ideas as to the sequence of events that puts the glass, bowl, spoon and kleenex box on the breakfast room table with fingerprints of PR anf BR only on the bowl and fingerprints of BR only on the glass. How did all of that come about? When did it happen? Who participated in what activity to create the setting we have? Why did they get pineapple out? Why did they try to make tea? Why is it in the breakfast room instead of on the kitchen counter? How did the pineapple get into the house? etc., etc., etc., etc., I think if we can answer all of those questions we can get a little closer to what happened that night. I don't think that summarily dismissing other peoples ideas based on personal conclusions will get us there. If I have tried to establish anything by even participating in a forum it is an attitude of objectivity and neutrality based on the evidence we have.

KingCoyote

[Kor]

Since I don't know if it was the pineapple that was found in JB's digestive system or if BPD did examine it to confirm its a pineapple, but linking it to the parents as liar & murder, especially Patsy, is like beating a dead horse. Patsy would have already confessed about it long ago. I don't see why the pineapple issue would be a big deal to Patsy. There were other people than the parents would have given the pineapple as easily to JB, like Linda the housekeeper for example....

[KingCoyote]

Louisadelmar:

Thats a darn good question.

I looked at the number of food items on the table and I guess, assumed that it was a party similar to the parties I go to over the holidays where everyone brings something. I suppose Patsy could have put the whole spread on herself. The fact that she might have does kind of put a hole in my ideas....doesn't it. I guess I should have said she had a party on 12/23 where people could have brought food with them, shouldn't I? I should stay consistent when I hypothesize, shouldn't I. Thanks for pointing that out.

Do you think she put the whole spread on herself?

KC

[Louisadelmar]

She doesn't say anything in DOI pp. 99-101 ppbk about people bringing food. According to PMPT p.132 the party started at 5pm. According to DOI it ended at 8pm.

My guess is she ordered the food. McReynolds called her on the 20th so she had some warning. We know she bought the gingerbread houses, frosting and decorations. My sense is if this had been a pot-luck kind of party she would have mentioned it either in DOI or in the interviews when they were asking about having pineapple in the house.

p.s. DOI says 31 guests. Add Mr & Mrs Pinky Barber + children and assorted house-guests.

[Tober]

How did the pineapple get into the house?

IMO, we should always start with the most logical conclusion, and only when a less logical conclusion can be substantiated, do we stray from the more logical one. Patsy stated she would sometimes buy fresh pineapple in a bag with a resealable top from the grocery store. The pineapple was in a bowl owned by the Ramseys, on their table, in their home. Their spoon was in the bowl. JonBenet, who lived there, consumed the pineapple sometime after arriving home but prior to being killed. The pineapple was already in the Ramsey home, most likely purchased by them. Patsy's fingerprints were on the bowl, as were Burke's. Patsy says Burke wouldn't have gotten JonBenet the pineapple. The most logical scenario is that JonBenet was awake when they arrived home and given the pineapple by Patsy as a snack. IMO, anything beyond that is simply too much of a stretch.

[Tober]

Why did they try to make tea?

Burke liked tea. His fingerprints were on the glass. He felt like a glass of tea, so he made himself one, either before or after working on his model.

[KingCoyote]

Ok...now were getting somewhere...

Lets assume that PR did put on the whole spread and did have pineapple in the fridge and did provide a snack at about 9:15 - 9:30 PM. This means that she provided the snack in the breakfast room rather than the kitchen which would logically be the place for a quick snack as opposed to setting up in the breakfast room. This also means that she may have participated in making this makeshift glass of tea and had no fingerprints on the glass. It also means that she used an oversized serving spoon for the pineapple but no dishes or plates to put the pineapple on. It also means that she left both on the table for the evening as opposed to putting fruit back in the fridge. It also means that if we believe the most frequent stated digestive rate being 1 and 1/2 to two hours that JBR was killed by 11.30 to maybe 12:00 midnite which means we are getting close to dismissing any possible scream by JBR since Melody Stanton said she heard the scream between 12 and 2 by one source and at about 2 AM by another. I have some problems with Patsy being too involved with the pineapple "snack" upon arriving at home. Things don't add up as logical to me but lets keep kicking this one around until the pieces fit together.

If she doesn't give them a snack at 9:30 or so that means we have to create all of how the glass and bowl and spoon and kleenex got there.

Just a few thoughts and opinions.

KC

[KingCoyote]

Good Point Tober:

It is possible that the glass of tea and the bowl of pineapple did not arrive on the breakfast table at the same time.

KC

[Tober]

Why did they get pineapple out?

JonBenet liked pineapple. She was probably a little hungry, so Patsy got it out and gave some to her as a snack. Patsy probably left it out in case Burke wanted some when he was finished working on his model.

[KingCoyote]

Louisa and Tober;

Can we find evidence to shift the time line to a later arrival at home? That may address the timeline if you believe in the scream heard by Melody Stanton but will that help the issues of who made the glass of tea and why the big serving spoon and why in the breakfast room and why no plates and why leave fruit out on a table?

Boy this case has a roadblock everywhere you go...doesn't it?

KC

[KingCoyote]

That is possible Tober but someone has already pointed out to me in one of my hypotheses that Burke did not like pineapple. Hmmm....maybe she left it out for John?

KC

[Tober]

Patsy probably got the pineapple out for JonBenet as a snack. She probably left it out in case Burke wanted some after working on his model. Burke probably had the glass of tea. He may or may not have had some pineapple (that would explain his fingerprints on the bowl). Though he was pretty mature, he was still a typical kid. He was mature enough to make himself a glass of tea, but like a typical kid probably wouldn't clean up after himself. That would explain why the items were left out.

[shill]

JonBenet liked pineapple. She was probably a little hungry, so Patsy got it out and gave some to her as a snack. Patsy probably left it out in case Burke wanted some when he was finished working on his model.

JB couldn't have been that hungry. It was just a small piece of pineapple, of which she could have, and would have used her fingers instead of a bowl and spoon for the one piece.

[KingCoyote]

But wouldn't John have been up with Burke increasing the chances that the pineapple might be eaten by John but also increasing the chances that John would clean up afterwards....or do we assume John is the typical man who doesn't pick up after himself which I don't think is the case.

I think you are getting closer though....keep it up... I will just continue to play devil's advocate for a while.

KC

[KingCoyote]

Shill:

Do you really think Patsy got out the pineapple and a spoon and just let JBR grab a piece with her hands.....maybe she did....PR may have set it on the table and went back for a plate....JBR grabbed her fill and said thanks....but that means PR walked all the way to the breakfast room and then left the bowl there instead of in a more convenient place for a snack. Why go all the way to the breakfast room for a snack? Lets keep thinking.

[shill]

IMO, we should always start with the most logical conclusion, and only when a less logical conclusion can be substantiated, do we stray from the more logical one. Patsy stated she would sometimes buy fresh pineapple in a bag with a resealable top from the grocery store. The pineapple was in a bowl owned by the Ramseys, on their table, in their home. Their spoon was in the bowl. JonBenet, who lived there, consumed the pineapple sometime after arriving home but prior to being killed. The pineapple was already in the Ramsey home, most likely purchased by them. Patsy's fingerprints were on the bowl, as were Burke's. Patsy says Burke wouldn't have gotten JonBenet the pineapple. The most logical scenario is that JonBenet was awake when they arrived home and given the pineapple by Patsy as a snack. IMO, anything beyond that is simply too much of a stretch.

Logic is the science of reasoning.
Logic is not reasoning that fits opinions based on Patsy being guilty.

[Tober]

That is possible Tober but someone has already pointed out to me in one of my hypotheses that Burke did not like pineapple.

Actually, Patsy said Burke liked pineapple a little bit, and that he wouldn't have gotten himself a big bowl of it.

[KingCoyote]

Louisa; (and Tober and Shill)

If what you say is correct Louisa, and a caterer brought the food in for the 12/23 party, that is someone else bringing the food in, just not the guests. Couldn't the caterer have brought in a standard spread with some items that PR didn't know about and couldn't the caterer leave the leftovers with the customer? Aren't we now back to the problem of who brought in the pineapple and the fact that Patsy may not know what is in her refrigerator? Of course if that is the case why doesn't Patsy just say....hey I had a caterer and they left the extra food in my fridge...I didn't know anything about any pineapple...ask the caterer? I think that we may be back to the simplest and most logical answer: Patsy bought the pineapple and is "distancing herself" as Tober puts it.

I am going to bed...this case is making me lose sleep....lol....

KC

[shill]

Shill:

Do you really think Patsy got out the pineapple and a spoon and just let JBR grab a piece with her hands.....maybe she did....PR may have set it on the table and went back for a plate....JBR grabbed her fill and said thanks....but that means PR walked all the way to the breakfast room and then left the bowl there instead of in a more convenient place for a snack. Why go all the way to the breakfast room for a snack? Lets keep thinking.

I think we have to believe PR and JR.
There is no proof that Patsy served JB pineapple.
The setting of these items and the lack of Patsy's fingerprints on the glass do not indicate that she was involved.
The Ramseys could have said JB was up when they got home and they fed her pineapple instead of denying knowledge of a bowl of pineapple and a glass that clearly exists. It would do nothing but support a time of death.
Having no knowledge of it is just that, which means it got there without their knowledge. We don't have a copy of Burkes GJ testimony, and all the answers could be there.

John and people who know Patsy said she would not do what happened to JB. But people don't believe what they say.
But when Patsy says JB or Burke wouldn't have done that, people believe that if she said they wouldn't do it, they wouldn't do it.
There may be things that JB and Burke do that Patsy never knew about.
Patsy could have said, "sometimes they get up in the middle of the night to get something to eat", end of story.

[bullmoose]

Sprocket: That was on page 215 of the paperback edition; thanks, but it is still just Thomas' opinion that connected Patsy to the pineapple. He said "To me that connected Patsy" which is just his opinion just as "I came to believe" also is simply a statement of opinion. Her fingerprint/s on the bowl does not constitute proof she did anything more than wash it and put it away the last time it was used. We only have his word that the 'experts' matched the pineapple from the bowl to her stomach-did the diligent detective find the container that the pineapple came in and test it for prints? Did he go to the local supermarkets and attempt to find if there was fresh pineapple for sale and then try to find the sales receipts and credit card receipts to match the pineapple to Patsy? As he did so diligently try to match the duct tape and cord should he have done any less with the pineapple? Without better proof than the fact that the pineapple was there to be photographed I am underwhelmed by the opinion of Steve Thomas that the pineapple in the dish equals or proves Patsy fed it to Jonbenet.And totally unconvinced.:D

[bullmoose]

Tober: I find your familiarity with Burke Ramsey a bit unsettling; how could you possibly know him well enough to say he was mature enough to make himself a cup of tea, but typical enough not to clean up after?Am I missing something here? How do you know that Burke liked tea? I don't recall anything about his working on a model that night. :confused:

[KingCoyote]

Shill:

Somehow I think you and I are saying the same thing a different way...I am not convinced at all that PR had anything to do with serving pineapple to JBR. I will post a few more of my convoluted thoughts (about timelines and evidence) that seems to take PR completely out of the picture with the pineapple. That isn't to say PR still couldn't have done it...That is merely to say that I think we need a series of events that better explain the bowl, spoon, kleenex and glass than PR lied and served pineapple as a snack when they got home.

Oh me,

KC

[thewhitewitch1]

Tober: I find your familiarity with Burke Ramsey a bit unsettling; how could you possibly know him well enough to say he was mature enough to make himself a cup of tea, but typical enough not to clean up after?Am I missing something here? How do you know that Burke liked tea? I don't recall anything about his working on a model that night. :confused:


John and Burke finished assembling a "toy" on Christmas night after they got home from the Whites. It may have been a model.

[LindaA]

I really don't think the pineapple and the tea bag in the glass were placed there at the same time and by the same person. I think it's most likely that the tea bag was placed in the glass after someone made a cup of hot tea because they didn't know what to do with the dripping bag in an umfamiliar kitchen. I don't believe it was an intruder; IMO it was someone who was with the Ramseys the morning of the 26th

Couldn't the pineapple in the bowl be some leftover from a dish the caterers had to make on the spot? One often has to buy more of an ingredient than called for in a recipe.

[KingCoyote]

LindaA:

I am really starting to like your lines of thinking even more than before....they leave us with some possibilities...which are things I really like....

KC

[Zoey]

Sprocket: That was on page 215 of the paperback edition; thanks, but it is still just Thomas' opinion that connected Patsy to the pineapple. He said "To me that connected Patsy" which is just his opinion just as "I came to believe" also is simply a statement of opinion. Her fingerprint/s on the bowl does not constitute proof she did anything more than wash it and put it away the last time it was used. We only have his word that the 'experts' matched the pineapple from the bowl to her stomach-did the diligent detective find the container that the pineapple came in and test it for prints? Did he go to the local supermarkets and attempt to find if there was fresh pineapple for sale and then try to find the sales receipts and credit card receipts to match the pineapple to Patsy? As he did so diligently try to match the duct tape and cord should he have done any less with the pineapple? Without better proof than the fact that the pineapple was there to be photographed I am underwhelmed by the opinion of Steve Thomas that the pineapple in the dish equals or proves Patsy fed it to Jonbenet.And totally unconvinced.:D


Thank you Bullmoose for this post. After being told by thewhitewitch that it was ridiculous to ask for a link that someone stated as fact, it kind of deflated my desire to ask anymore questions. Someone then posts that Steve Thomas says his experts said it was so, only proved to me that there is no proof at the present time, links included, that prove the pineapple in the bowl is the pineapple in JB's intestine. I still, and call me ridiculous, think it is some kind of fruit salad in the bowl, IMO.

[LindaA]

John and Burke finished assembling a "toy" on Christmas night after they got home from the Whites. It may have been a model.

I believe I read this as well -- some time ago, but I don't have a source. Do you, TWW1?

[LindaA]

LindaA:

I am really starting to like your lines of thinking even more than before....they leave us with some possibilities...which are things I really like....

KC

Thank you. Many people here would disagree with you. ;)

[KingCoyote]

Let me toss out to the forum some of my methods to my madness. I am trying to be the ultimate FS and use a "median" approach to this pineapple thing.

I start with the statement of Melody Stanton and take it as true that a scream did occur. Then I look for the range of time when the scream occurred. ST says it was between 12-2 AM but Schiller says it was 2AM. (Somebody has already referenced that above.) OK...playing the centrist I choose the widest range of 12-2 and pick 1AM as the time of the scream. Leaning toward Schiller (since ST has been known to "fudge," shall we say) I then say the scream occurred between 1 and 2 AM. I stay with the median and pick 1:30 AM as the logical time using only a somewhat subjective median approach. (I use a median approach because I don't have any averages as to when things actually occur within a range given. I would need a whole bunch of events with screams and the actual proven time of the scream to calculate an average. But I do know, from years of statistical research that an average tends to be closer to a median than it does the extreme...but enough of the statistical gobbledegook.)

OK...with a hypothesized time of scream approximating the time of death (an assumption I make) I then look back to see when the pineapple could have been eaten. Drawing on many readings in forums and other internet locations I see that a range of digestive rates could be roughly 1-3 hours for the pineapple to have reached JBR's intestine. Also drawing from a range of readings it seems like the most frequently cited time for digestion is 1 and 1/2 to 2 hours. Ok...being a centrist and liking the more frequently cited time frame than the whole range, I choose 1 and 3/4 hours for the digestion to get the pineapple to the intestine. (Its my hypothesis...I can choose what I want...)

Now I just back up from 1:30 AM to 1 and 3/4 hours earlier and find the time of about 11:45 PM. Now I look to statements of what may have occurred around, say 11:45PM to midnight. I find that one neighbor saw a light on in the kitchen area at about midnight and I also find that Patsy sometimes got up at midnight to have JBR go to the bathroom. Now we have a possibility of movement in the house at about midnight.

OK...lets step down, according to my definitions, from hypothesis to speculation, which we have to do in this case, if for no other reason, but to brainstorm. Patsy could have awakened JBR at midnight or so; had JBR go to bathroom and PR went back to bed. JBR could have awakened on her own and under either scenario JBR could have remembered her Secret Santa visit and went downstairs and plucked a piece of pineapple from a bowl on the tableand waited for Santa but met a killer. Now I have to keep backing up to find a series of events that puts at least a bowl with pineapple in it in a location where JBR can reach it without leaving her fingerprints on it while PR and BR's prints are on it. I also have to put the "tea bag" glass at the same location but not necessarily put it there at the exact same time as I put the bowl there. I also have to consider the source of the pineapple, who put it in the bowl, why they (whoever they are) put it in the bowl.

Of course if I want to continue my hypothesis I have to put the series of killing events by whomever (?objective or subjective case?hmmmm...objective..and I will call "by" a preposition) at an hour and a half, or so, later which I have done. I am not at this point going to hypothesize just yet as to those killing events...I will work back to the series of events to put the bowl, etc. where they are first before I go forward.

Why say it in one paragraph when six will do?....:biggrin:

KingCoyote

[Louisadelmar]

John and Burke finished assembling a "toy" on Christmas night after they got home from the Whites. It may have been a model.

I think it was something to do with his train.

[Zoey]

DOI-Page 9

Burke stayed up late working on a model.

I do not have the book anymore, this was taken from acandyrose index of the book.

[Louisadelmar]

A parking garage.

I must have been picturing one of the buildings from my husband's boyhood train set.

[andU]

IMO, the pineapple represents the first "problem issue" for the intruder theory. It calls into question John's and Patsy's claims that a sleeping JonBenet was put to bed when they arrived home.

There have been times in all of our lives, those who are parents, when our child or children are not asleep when we would have thought them to be. I live with my grandchildren and I know for a fact that one of them gets up to eat a snack at least 3 times a week. She just helps herself, to a bowl of fruit, a bowl of cereal, or whatever. Her parents have no idea that she is up because she does not disturb them.

[andU]

There is no actual proof that it was actually pineapple that she ate, it can be assumed. The coroner's report says 'the consistancy of pineapple'....

[andU]

Louisadelmar:

Thats a darn good question.

I looked at the number of food items on the table and I guess, assumed that it was a party similar to the parties I go to over the holidays where everyone brings something. I suppose Patsy could have put the whole spread on herself. The fact that she might have does kind of put a hole in my ideas....doesn't it. I guess I should have said she had a party on 12/23 where people could have brought food with them, shouldn't I? I should stay consistent when I hypothesize, shouldn't I. Thanks for pointing that out.

Do you think she put the whole spread on herself?

KC

Or it could have been catered....

[Tober]

There is no actual proof that it was actually pineapple that she ate, it can be assumed. The coroner's report says 'the consistancy of pineapple'....

Most certainly there is proof. Pineapple in JonBenet's upper intestine + Bowl of pineapple on table + Patsy's fingerprints on bowl = JonBenet consumed the pineapple from the bowl sometime after arriving home but before being killed.

[sweetcharlotte]

There is no actual proof that it was actually pineapple that she ate, it can be assumed. The coroner's report says 'the consistancy of pineapple'....

I think it "became" pineapple after some police photos were developed and someone saw the bowl of pineapple in one of the pictures.

[KingCoyote]

Andu:

Louisa has brought up the possibility of caterer as well....it gives the possibility that the pineapple may have been in the catering menu or somehow added afterwards by the caterer with Patsy not knowing it and possibly that the caterer left some pineapple that PR didn't know about and JBR managed to find. Caterers add another party to the issue.

One would think that the BPD has figured this out...maybe they have and all they are concentrating on is how PR fed it to JBR but it seems like they are also trying to figure out where the pineapple originally came from.

KingCoyote

[Tober]

Some have this idea that JonBenet was "coerced" with the pineapple. JonBenet liked pineapple. Ask yourself, after that day's events, when is the most logical time JonBenet would have wanted a pineapple snack? She most likely wanted some as a snack upon arriving home as opposed to in the middle of the night.

[elvislives]

Louisa; (and Tober and Shill)

If what you say is correct Louisa, and a caterer brought the food in for the 12/23 party, that is someone else bringing the food in, just not the guests. Couldn't the caterer have brought in a standard spread with some items that PR didn't know about and couldn't the caterer leave the leftovers with the customer? Aren't we now back to the problem of who brought in the pineapple and the fact that Patsy may not know what is in her refrigerator? Of course if that is the case why doesn't Patsy just say....hey I had a caterer and they left the extra food in my fridge...I didn't know anything about any pineapple...ask the caterer? I think that we may be back to the simplest and most logical answer: Patsy bought the pineapple and is "distancing herself" as Tober puts it.

I am going to bed...this case is making me lose sleep....lol....

KC


I recently had a new years party catered and here's what happened in a nutshell: I ordered the basic meal (chicken, salad, potatoes, etc) and the caterer provided these items plus a whole slew of other foods. When the party was over, the caterers put away all the food in my refrigerator using my containers, bowls, tupperware, etc. After the party we had lots of leftovers and would often open a container and say 'did we serve green beans (or whatever) at the party?' I didnt notice or even eat about 70% of the foods served at my own party, but later discovered them in my frig.
So my conclusion is that either KC's theory is correct that someone (possibly the caterer) brought the pineapple into the house on the 23rd unbeknownst to Patsy....either that or Patsy bought it, served it to JB before bed, then killed her a few hours later. Just my 2 cents.

[elvislives]

Hi Elvislives -

Thanks for the info - I'm glad someone else thinks it's normal to be a bit vague about what's in the frig. :-)

Any thoughts on the time parameters for when JonBenet could have eaten the pineapple? Many people offer up the standard one to two hours. But then there is this from Lin Wood in ST's depo:

17 Q. You don't recall Dr. Michael
18 Graham taking the position that the pineapple
19 found in JonBenet's digestive system could
20 have been eaten the day before? Does that
21 refresh you in terms of Michael Graham's
22 involvement?

Furhman in his book on the Moxley case suggested 3 hours as a time for the stomach to empty. Could some foods (like the crab) be digested more easily (faster) than the fiber of the pineapple?

Questions, questions, questions...

Hi Louisadelmar, I should first remind you that I am not a pathologist, but I will gladly share my opinions and knowledge re digestion rates.
First off, there is tremendous individual variability with regards to digestion in general. The standard 1-3 hours for a meal to pass from the stomach to the small intestine is just the average.
There are also a number of factors that affect digestion--certain foods travel more quickly thru the system: drugs, physical activity, age, and fear can all affect the rate.
So on to JB: A couple points to consider:
1) She was 6 years old and children tend to metabolize faster than adults
2)Fiber rich foods, such as pineapple, tend to digest at a faster rate than say fatty or protein rich foods (such as crab)
3) the fruit fragments were found in the proximal portion of her small intestine (food travels from the stomach to the proximal SI onto the distal SI then on to the LI)
4) the autopsy states that there was no particulate matter in the stomach and nothing else in the small intestine.

My conclusions: she ate the pineapple within about 1-3 hours before her death.

I have heard the md you quoted as well as other mds claim that she may have eaten the pineapple the day before or even that morning, but I dont agree and here is why: if she had eaten the pineapple the day before (or even before the white's party)and for some reason was very slow to digest, then everything else she had eaten since then would also still be in her small intestine or stomach...but nothing else was found. All other particulate matter was found in the large intestine. So unless she ate the pineapple, then had nothing else to eat until her autopsy...and had an unusually slow metabolism...that would be the only way to explain that it was not eaten shortly before her death.

[Tober]

There is no actual proof that it was actually pineapple that she ate

When Lou Smit told John Ramsey that it was pineapple found in JonBenet's upper intestine, John asks "Are you sure?" to which Lou replied "Yes." John then asks "No question?" to which Lou replies "No question."

[elvislives]

When Lou Smit told John Ramsey that it was pineapple found in JonBenet's upper intestine, John asks "Are you sure?" to which Lou replied "Yes." John then asks "No question?" to which Lou replies "No question."

According to the autopsy, in the proximal portion of her si was yellow to light green tan fruit or vegetable matter that may represent fragments of pineapple

[Tober]

Patsy said that JonBenet liked pineapple and that she would sometimes buy fresh pineapple already prepared from Safeway. Prepared fresh pineapple was in a bowl owned by the Ramseys on their table with Burke's and Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl. A spoon owned by the Ramseys was in the bowl. JonBenet, who lived in the Ramsey home, had pineapple from that bowl in her upper intestine which she had to have consumed sometime after arriving home but prior to being killled. Why are some acting as if the pineapple being in the home is some big mystery and foreign to the home?

[thewhitewitch1]

Thank you Bullmoose for this post. After being told by thewhitewitch that it was ridiculous to ask for a link that someone stated as fact, it kind of deflated my desire to ask anymore questions. Someone then posts that Steve Thomas says his experts said it was so, only proved to me that there is no proof at the present time, links included, that prove the pineapple in the bowl is the pineapple in JB's intestine. I still, and call me ridiculous, think it is some kind of fruit salad in the bowl, IMO.


Zoey, you were not the only person who asked for a link proving the pineapple in the bowl was the same JB had eaten so don't think I was singling you out.
What I was trying to say, I guess, for those of you who refuse to believe the pineapple in the bowl is not the same pineapple she ate...well, that is ridiculous. IMO It's a matter of putting 2 and 2 together. What are the chances it isn't the same pineapple? How big of a coincidence is it for JB to have eaten pineapple and for the bowl of pineapple to be right in her own home? Too big for me. It does not prove that Patsy fed it to her, though.
I still think she did. I also do not believe there was anything in the bowl besides pineapple because nothing was ever mentioned anywhere about it being anything other than pineapple. Trying to say that it "looks like a fruit salad" is inserting a piece of evidence that you couldn't possibly prove to match your own opinion that the pineapple JB ate didn't come from that bowl.

LindaA....the Ramseys story has always been (found in any interview) that John stayed up for a little bit with Burke helping him assemble a toy after they came home from the Whites that night. I will get you a link, though, when I have a bit more time.

[Tober]

According to the autopsy, in the proximal portion of her si was yellow to light green tan fruit or vegetable matter that may represent fragments of pineapple

Detective Weinheimer employed the University of Colorado at Boulder to test the contents of JonBenet's upper intestine. It was determined to be identical to that which was in the bowl, right down to the rind, which was fresh pineapple. Therefore, fresh pineapple is what was in JonBenet's upper intestine.

[KingCoyote]

Tober;

First let me thank you for starting one of the best threads I have seen. People are trying to stay on this one particular subject which makes it easier to analyze.

I don't think there is any mystery as to pineapple being in the Ramsey house on occasion. I think there is just a strong desire to analyze exactly how this particular pineapple got into the Ramsey house. Maybe PR is just distancing herself from the pineapple by lying because she had no idea something like that could come back to be such an important piece of evidence. Maybe PR truly has no idea where this particular piece of pineapple came from because she truly didn't buy any pineapple recently. I just don't know. I think a lot of the discussion is based on the premise..."there are two sides to every story." But no matter which side you are on you still have to account for the pineapple.

KingCoyote

[Tober]

Like Patsy, John is distancing himself (and Burke and Patsy) from the pineapple issue. John tells Lou Smit that had the pineapple been in the refrigerator, JonBenet couldn't have gotten it for herself because she'd be unable to get the door open. When Lou asks "When did JonBenet eat pineapple?" John replies "I will guarantee you it was not after she came home. She was sound asleep. So it had to be at the Whites or prior to that." When Lou asks if someone could have gotten her up and fed her pineapple, John replies "I can't imagine that somebody could have gotten her up, fed her pineapple, and she wouldn't have screamed bloody murder." When Lou aks "What if it was a stranger?" Lou then says "Well, it was." to which John replies "Had to be." John is denying that anyone in the home could have gotten JonBenet the pineapple, and denying that she could have gotten it for herself, while at the same time implying that she ate it at the Whites and that a stranger (intruder) had to have given it to her.

[Zoey]

Detective Weinheimer employed the University of Colorado at Boulder to test the contents of JonBenet's upper intestine. It was determined to be identical to that which was in the bowl, right down to the rind, which was fresh pineapple. Therefore, fresh pineapple is what was in JonBenet's upper intestine.

Maybe I am not understanding what you are trying to get across, but are you trying to say that someone cut up a fresh pineapple and left the nasty, hard rind on the chunks and JB ate the chunks with the rind? I am sorry, but IMO, I cannot believe that anyone would eat the rind off of a pineapple, nor anyone would cut up a fresh pineapple and keep the rind on to begin with.

[Tober]

Maybe I am not understanding what you are trying to get across, but are you trying to say that someone cut up a fresh pineapple and left the nasty, hard rind on the chunks and JB ate the chunks with the rind?

No. When fresh pineapple is prepared it isn't uncommon for a very slight, but edible portion of the rind (as opposed to the majority of the rind which isn't edible) to remain on the prepared pieces.

[shill]

Some have this idea that JonBenet was "coerced" with the pineapple. JonBenet liked pineapple. Ask yourself, after that day's events, when is the most logical time JonBenet would have wanted a pineapple snack? She most likely wanted some as a snack upon arriving home as opposed to in the middle of the night.

The most logical time JonBenet would have wanted a pineapple snack is not upon arriving home because she was asleep.

The most logical time for her to be hungry would be if she got up in the middle of the night to pee, which she routinely did. She was asleep when she got home and had not peed, and would eventually need to.
It is quite common for people who wake up in the middle of the night to be hungry and head to the fridge for a snack.

[Tober]

John's interview with Lou Smit and Patsy's 1998 interrogation interview are quite similar regarding the pineapple issue. IMO, they are both practicing "hiding in plain sight distancing." The bowl of pineapple was there, it's obvious. JonBenet ate some of the pineapple that was in that bowl sometime after arriving home, etc. However, they both state/imply/suggest the following: They didn't give JonBenet the pineapple; they have no idea how the bowl of pineapple got there; they have no idea where the bowl of pineapple came from; the pineapple is mysterious and foreign to the home; JonBenet couldn't have gotten it for herself; no one in the home got/would have gotten it for her; she was asleep and couldn't have consumed it at home (John even says he guarantees it); she may have eaten it at the Whites; she couldn't have gotten it for herself so someone had to have gotten it for her but it wasn't anyone in the home; a stranger (intruder) must have gotten it for her.

[shill]

John and Patsy were asleep the whole night. They could not know what happened while they were asleep.

We do know for a fact that JB was up that night, unless she was killed in her sleep.

Tober you claim one must base things on evidence and yet you ignore the evidence when you choose.

[SnarkyCow]

No. When fresh pineapple is prepared it isn't uncommon for a very slight, but edible portion of the rind (as opposed to the majority of the rind which isn't edible) to remain on the prepared pieces.

This is completely true. I eat pineapple several times a week. I buy it fresh from the grocery store where it is cored & cut up. Some pieces have a more chewy consistancy on one side because the edible part of the rind is still attached.

[thewhitewitch1]

The most logical time JonBenet would have wanted a pineapple snack is not upon arriving home because she was asleep.

The most logical time for her to be hungry would be if she got up in the middle of the night to pee, which she routinely did. She was asleep when she got home and had not peed, and would eventually need to.
It is quite common for people who wake up in the middle of the night to be hungry and head to the fridge for a snack.

Shill, again you are ignoring the fact that JB did not "routinely get up to pee in the middle of the night". She had to be woken up by Patsy.
By Patsy's own admission, if she was not woken up by Patsy, she would wet the bed.
You only have the Ramseys word that JB was asleep when she got home. Their word is not good enough for me.

[SnarkyCow]

I'm adding parts of Patsy's 1998 interview regarding the pineapple. I have posted these quotes on other threads, but thought it would be good to post them again here due to their relevance to this thread's topic.

PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge, unless
17 she -- you know, I can't remember what was served over
18 at the White's. Does anybody know? Except there was
19 crab. I remember crab.
20 TOM HANEY: That seems to be the only thing
21 you recall that she ate.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
23 Did you fingerprint that?
24 TOM HANEY: Yes.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Did it show anything?
0480
1 TOM HANEY: Well, what would that tell you,
2 somebody's fingerprints were on it.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, if they weren't mine, if
4 they were not John's, maybe somebody fed her pineapple.
5 TOM HANEY: What if those fingerprints
6 belonged to one of the two of you?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.
8 TOM HANEY: Well, wait a minute. You started
9 that line.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't put the bowl there,
11 okay. I did not put the bowl there. I would not do
12 this, set it.
13 TOM HANEY: Let's go back to your line of
14 reasoning here. If they were not -- now talk to me.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
16 TOM HANEY: Look at me. If they are not
17 yours and they are not John's, then they would be
18 somebody else's.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
20 TOM HANEY: But now I am telling you they are
21 not somebody else's. Those prints belong to one of the
22 two of you.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: They do? You are sure? Well,
24 I don't know. I did not put that there. No.
25 TOM HANEY: Now, so could we just slough it
0481
1 off like that, because --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know how else to -- I
3 mean, I would not do this set like this. JonBenet
4 could not reach a bowl that size.
5 TOM HANEY: Wait. Talk to me. Your line of
6 reasoning, and this was your logic a couple sentences
7 ago, they are not yours, they are not John's, then they
8 are somebody else's, whoever put it there. I'm telling
9 you that it isn't somebody else's.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well --
11 TOM HANEY: You know sometimes the simplest,
12 most obscure little thing could be so significant.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I did not feed
14 JonBenet pineapple, so I don't know how it got in her
15 stomach. I don't know where this bowl of pineapple
16 came from. I can't recall putting that there. I can
17 never recall putting a tea bag like that in a cup, so I
18 don't know. I don't know the answer.

Also from Patsy's 1998 interview:

PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, I would have heard
25 them. Burke would have gotten up and banged around
0486
1 getting cupboards open and getting stuff in the
2 refrigerator.
3 TOM HANEY: Well, if he banged around two
4 floors away, would you have heard that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I hope I would have.
6 TOM HANEY: You wouldn't hear JonBenet's
7 toilet flush one floor away.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that was at the opposite
9 end of the house. The kitchen is down under my --
10 TOM HANEY: It is kind of central, is it?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I just -- he has -- I
12 have never known him to fix his sister, in the middle
13 of the night, something to eat. That would be unusual.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
16 TOM HANEY: Could it have happened?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Anything could have happened.
18 I mean, we know something strange happened that night,
19 but this looks weird to me. That is all I have. That
20 is all I know. That looks strange to me.
21 And if there was pineapple in her stomach and
22 that pineapple, that is -- I would like to know when
23 somebody first saw that there, you know, because there
24 were a lot of people floating around there.
25 PATRICK BURKE: Is this a good time for a
0487
1 break?
2 TOM HANEY: I have a couple of questions.
3 PATRICK BURKE: Before we get off of that,
4 just to finish, I think we have time left on the tape.
5 TOM HANEY: I am done talking, okay.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Do I understand you to say that
7 JonBenet would not have fixed herself pineapple?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I very seriously doubt that.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: So if she had pineapple in her
10 system, someone had to serve that to her?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That would be my guess.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. And we know that she did
13 have pineapple in her system.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Right.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: That is why I'm here.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Someone would have had to serve
18 her pineapple.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems to me like that.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: The Whites have told us that
21 they did not serve her pineapple.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: We need to figure out when she
24 got pineapple.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Exactly.

[thewhitewitch1]

I noticed she did not ask which of their prints were on the bowl but automatically assumed they were hers.
She wants to make it seem as though an intruder got the bowl out and put the pineapple in it, is the impression I got from the way she eliminated every other possibility. IMO

[KingCoyote]

John's interview with Lou Smit and Patsy's 1998 interrogation interview are quite similar regarding the pineapple issue. IMO, they are both practicing "hiding in plain sight distancing." The bowl of pineapple was there, it's obvious. JonBenet ate some of the pineapple that was in that bowl sometime after arriving home, etc. However, they both state/imply/suggest the following: They didn't give JonBenet the pineapple; they have no idea how the bowl of pineapple got there; they have no idea where the bowl of pineapple came from; the pineapple is mysterious and foreign to the home; JonBenet couldn't have gotten it for herself; no one in the home got/would have gotten it for her; she was asleep and couldn't have consumed it at home (John even says he guarantees it); she may have eaten it at the Whites; she couldn't have gotten it for herself so someone had to have gotten it for her but it wasn't anyone in the home; a stranger (intruder) must have gotten it for her.


Tober:

You state your case so well that I don't know exactly what to think. Maybe they realized the basement window/scuff mark evidence just ain't cuttin' it to prove an intruder and the stun gun theory ain't flyin' either so they have decided to hang their hat on the pineapple issue which MUST indicate an intruder because WE know nothing about it. Then again, despite all of their inconsistencies, and being as neutral as I try to be, maybe they are actually telling the truth.

If you believe that the Rs fed the pineapple to JBR when arriving home at about 9:15-9:30 PM and you assume that JBR's digestive tract was working at the slowest possible pace to where the pineapple left the stomach for the intestines in 3 hours or so which puts her time of death at about 12:15 - 12:30 AM then it coincides with the "scream" timeline Melody Stanton allegedly told police (Midnight- 2 AM) and that is assuming you even believe Stanton in the first place, you have a case that meets a timeline. But that is all it means.

That still doesn't mean the Rs killed her. It basically just means they lied about her being awake and feeding her pineapple. (Sooner or later you just prove the Rs to be liars.) Why lie about that, unless of course you have locked yourself into a story (she was asleep and was carried upstairs) and can't change without further incriminating yourself. That would be the best reason, IMO, to continue deny the pineapple (other than it might be the truth).

To try to configure a sequence of events to show how and when and by whom the pineapple got to where it was with a glass of "tea" is driving us all nuts. (Short drive...almost a putt for me) Even if you assume the Rs did feed her a snack of pineapple, why does PR or JR set up a snack in the breakfast room and not on the kitchen counter (where there are barstools or at least there was a reference to chairs at the kitchen counter in one of the Interviews that I vaguely remember...I think) which is all of three or four feet away from the refrigerator? That just doesn't seem logical. And to top that off it is only one or two pieces of pineapple. And you go all the way to the breakfast room for that. If you assume PR and JR do feed the kids a snack at 9:30PM why leave it out with a wierd glass of "tea" and a kleenex box in the breakfast room. Providing a snack to the kids is all of a sudden so tiring that they just can't lift this bowl and glass and put them in the sink or refrigerator???? Something is just amiss with this evidence being in the breakfast room next to some other unusual evidence.

I am trying as hard as I can to accept your statements but I am thoroughly confused....

Keep it up...I will work with anything you throw out here. But I can be the devil's advocate sometimes.

KingCoyote :confused: :shrug:

[Sprocket]

That still doesn't mean the Rs killed her. It basically just means they lied about her being awake and feeding her pineapple.

The question has to be, why lie, about something so mundane as whether or not JonBenet was awake when they arrived home, and whether or not they fed their child pineapple before put to bed?

Why lie, and continue to lie? Because it diverts attention away from their possible involvement.

[Louisadelmar]

Tober:

[...]

That still doesn't mean the Rs killed her. It basically just means they lied about her being awake and feeding her pineapple. (Sooner or later you just prove the Rs to be liars.) Why lie about that, unless of course you have locked yourself into a story (she was asleep and was carried upstairs) and can't change without further incriminating yourself. That would be the best reason, IMO, to continue deny the pineapple (other than it might be the truth).

[...]

But if you've locked yourself into a 'asleep when she got home lie'; wouldn't agreeing she must have gotten up in the night for a snack be the best way to wiggle out? Instead she seems pretty adamant.

1998:

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, we had so many other
11 things that she had for a snack first, you know, before
12 she got pineapple. But she wouldn't do this. She
13 would not have a bowl like this with a big huge spoon
14 like that.

[...]

16 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I mean, I
17 don't. I can't explain it.
18 TOM HANEY: Had JonBenet and Burke been up in
19 the night, would Burke have maybe fixed that for her
20 knowing she wanted something like that?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. That is
22 stretching it.
23 TOM HANEY: To what?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, I would have heard
25 them. Burke would have gotten up and banged around
0486
1 getting cupboards open and getting stuff in the
2 refrigerator.
3 TOM HANEY: Well, if he banged around two
4 floors away, would you have heard that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I hope I would have.
6 TOM HANEY: You wouldn't hear JonBenet's
7 toilet flush one floor away.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that was at the opposite
9 end of the house. The kitchen is down under my --
10 TOM HANEY: It is kind of central, is it?

[...]

6 TRIP DEMUTH: Do I understand you to say that
7 JonBenet would not have fixed herself pineapple?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I very seriously doubt that.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: So if she had pineapple in her
10 system, someone had to serve that to her?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That would be my guess.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. And we know that she did
13 have pineapple in her system.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Right.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: That is why I'm here.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Someone would have had to serve
18 her pineapple.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems to me like that.

[...]

15 TRIP DEMUTH: There was no one else during
16 that day that could have fed her?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: There, no. I mean, John was
18 in and out, but, you know, I don't remember pineapple.
19 TRIP DEMUTH: So you can understand why it is
20 important for us.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Of course.
22 TRIP DEMUTH: Can you also understand that
23 the only people that could have done it is yourself or
24 the Whites?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Or whoever killed JonBenet;
0489
1 right? I mean, there was somebody in our home that
2 night besides my husband, my son and my daughter and
3 myself that killed our daughter, you know.
4 Could they have fed JonBenet pineapple? That
5 is what I'm saying. This is weird. This is not like
6 something I would set up or that my children would set
7 up.

[...]

19 TRIP DEMUTH: Could you have fed them
20 pineapple with the pancakes?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I am aware. Not that
22 I can remember. They don't go together. You wouldn't
23 have pineapple with pancakes.

[...]

18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't where, somebody told
19 me they saw it on T.V. or, I don't know, but I
20 know there's been some discussion about
21 pineapple and I, you know, I just trying to
22 remember and remember that she had pineapple. I
23 can't remember.

[...]

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. You don't recall
14 putting pineapple in a Tupperware container and
15 putting it up in her room?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: And you would be the person
18 to do that if it were done, right?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Most likely, yes.

[thewhitewitch1]

It would appear that she/they want to distance themselves from the pineapple as far as possible.
I think that "wiggling out" by saying she could have gotten up in the night and got it herself would have brought on more questions that she/they couldn't answer. IMO

[shill]

Shill, again you are ignoring the fact that JB did not "routinely get up to pee in the middle of the night". She had to be woken up by Patsy.
By Patsy's own admission, if she was not woken up by Patsy, she would wet the bed.
You only have the Ramseys word that JB was asleep when she got home. Their word is not good enough for me.

Excuse me, but there is no need to correct what I said.
JB did "routinely get up to pee in the middle of the night".
I did not state it was routine for her to do it by herself.

Some people routinely get up a 6am every morning. They may use an alarm clock to do this. But if that alarm clock doesn't go off, they will get up anyways since it has become routine.

Patsy didn't wake JB up that night to pee. JB's toilet was full of JB's pee. JB was awake that night. And then JB died that night.

[KingCoyote]

Saying JBR must have gotten up and got a snack on her own seems like the best way to diffuse the issue. Adamantly denying JBR and BR wouldn't get a snack on their own seems to put her in the position of possibly having gotten up with them to get the snack for them....doesn't it? Or is she trying to imply that JBR would get up to get a snack with a friendly intruder who would feed her as opposed to PR feeding her. Maybe she is trying to imply a friendly intruder like LHP? I am starting to get confused.

Also, all I have ever heard is that JBR's toilet was not flushed...not that it was just full of urine...could it have had fecal matter in it as well?...Would that even make a difference?

I think I need some sleep...I am confusing myself with my own questions and answers...... Maybe I should take this up tomorrow.

KingCoyote

[Sprocket]

JB's toilet was full of JB's pee.

Source, for an unflushed toilet full of pee.

[Tober]

Saying JBR must have gotten up and got a snack on her own seems like the best way to diffuse the issue.

Saying that, though, would place JonBenet awake at a time when John and Patsy want her to have been asleep.

[KingCoyote]

I am so confused I am going to bed now.

Good night Mrs. Calabash, whereever you are.....

KingCoyote

[Tober]

If you assume PR and JR do feed the kids a snack at 9:30PM why leave it out with a wierd glass of "tea" and a kleenex box in the breakfast room.

Burke liked tea. The glass was at the seat position where Burke normally sat. Burke's fingerprints were on the glass. Burke was a smart kid. He probably wanted some tea, so he improvised. He puts a tea bag in the glass and probably just uses hot water right from the tap. If he drank the tea before working on his model, that would explain why he left it out, as he was probably anxious to work on his model. If he drank the tea after working on his model, that would explain why he left it out, as he was probably tired after a long day and after working on his model. I don't find the box of tissues being there unusual at all.

[Louisadelmar]

Burke liked sweet iced tea.

[shill]

Source, for an unflushed toilet full of pee.

Patsy's police interviews.

[shill]

Burke liked tea. The glass was at the seat position where Burke normally sat. Burke's fingerprints were on the glass. Burke was a smart kid. He probably wanted some tea, so he improvised. He puts a tea bag in the glass and probably just uses hot water right from the tap. If he drank the tea before working on his model, that would explain why he left it out, as he was probably anxious to work on his model. If he drank the tea after working on his model, that would explain why he left it out, as he was probably tired after a long day and after working on his model. I don't find the box of tissues being there unusual at all.So that would explain the bowl of fruit.

[shill]

From the food I saw on the table from the pictures of that party, I not sure anyone may have realized what was there and what was not or who did bring what. 23 people could bring 23 different things, at least, and some of those things could get overlooked.
KingCoyote

KC, I haven't seen these photos of the food at the party. Can you put up a link so I can see them?

[Tober]

So that would explain the bowl of fruit.

IMO, Patsy got the bowl of pineapple as a snack for the kids and assumed they would put it away when they were finished. They didn't, so that would explain why it was left out.

[bullmoose]

Sprocket: That was on page 215 of the paperback edition; thanks, but it is still just Thomas' opinion that connected Patsy to the pineapple. He said "To me that connected Patsy" which is just his opinion just as "I came to believe" also is simply a statement of opinion. Her fingerprint/s on the bowl does not constitute proof she did anything more than wash it and put it away the last time it was used. We only have his word that the 'experts' matched the pineapple from the bowl to her stomach-did the diligent detective find the container that the pineapple came in and test it for prints? Did he go to the local supermarkets and attempt to find if there was fresh pineapple for sale and then try to find the sales receipts and credit card receipts to match the pineapple to Patsy? As he did so diligently try to match the duct tape and cord should he have done any less with the pineapple? Without better proof than the fact that the pineapple was there to be photographed I am underwhelmed by the opinion of Steve Thomas that the pineapple in the dish equals or proves Patsy fed it to Jonbenet.And totally unconvinced.:DCat got your tongue,Tober? I still haven't figured out your close personal acquaintance with Burke, or where you get all your seemingly inside information without any links. Could it be that you are relying on notes?:rolleyes:

[Zoey]

Burke liked tea. The glass was at the seat position where Burke normally sat. Burke's fingerprints were on the glass. Burke was a smart kid. He probably wanted some tea, so he improvised. He puts a tea bag in the glass and probably just uses hot water right from the tap. If he drank the tea before working on his model, that would explain why he left it out, as he was probably anxious to work on his model. If he drank the tea after working on his model, that would explain why he left it out, as he was probably tired after a long day and after working on his model. I don't find the box of tissues being there unusual at all.


Tober, I have to ask. How do you know where Burke usually sat at that table?

[Zoey]

Burke liked tea. The glass was at the seat position where Burke normally sat. Burke's fingerprints were on the glass. Burke was a smart kid. He probably wanted some tea, so he improvised. He puts a tea bag in the glass and probably just uses hot water right from the tap. If he drank the tea before working on his model, that would explain why he left it out, as he was probably anxious to work on his model. If he drank the tea after working on his model, that would explain why he left it out, as he was probably tired after a long day and after working on his model. I don't find the box of tissues being there unusual at all.


Since John worked on the model with Burke before they retired to bed, IMO, he (John) would have noticed Burke making himself a glass of hot tea.



From the 1998 Interview of John Ramsey:

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I started to get Burke

22 into bed; get him ready. And he was sitting in the

23 living room working on a toy, an assembly little

24 toy he got for Christmas. And I could see that I

25 was going to get him to go easy. So I sat down and

0115

1 helped him put it together to try to expedite the

2 process. So we did that together and it took us

3 ten or twenty minutes, I guess. And then he went

4 up to bed. And then we went up to bed. And I think

5 we used the front stairs (INAUDIBLE).

6 LOU SMIT: And what time was it that you got

7 (INAUDIBLE)?

8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was probably nineish, 9:15

9 maybe. (INAUDIBLE).

10 LOU SMIT: So you looked for Burke?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Then I got Burke on his

12 way to bed. I guess I must have gotten him for

13 bed, but I don't remember now for sure. But he got

14 in bed, and by the time I got to bed I think Patsy

15 had already been.

16 LOU SMIT: You just go right directly from

17 Burke and came upstairs? Is that what your saying?

[shill]

IMO, Patsy got the bowl of pineapple as a snack for the kids and assumed they would put it away when they were finished. They didn't, so that would explain why it was left out.

So if she left it out and JB was asleep, then JB could have gotten up in the middle of the night and eaten a piece with her fingers.
But why didn't Patsy fix the tea for Burke if she was getting the fruit for him?

[shill]

I know when I was Burke's age, if I had stayed up to finish assembling a toy, I'd have a tuff time staying in bed and would certainly try to sneak out to play with the new virgin toy.

[Tober]

Since John worked on the model with Burke before they retired to bed, IMO, he (John) would have noticed Burke making himself a glass of hot tea.

It can be inferred that Burke made and drank the tea sometime after they arrived home but before going to bed.

[Tober]

But why didn't Patsy fix the tea for Burke if she was getting the fruit for him?

Patsy may have gotten the bowl of pineapple just for JonBenet, and JonBenet left it out after she ate what she wanted.

[packer48]

I know when I was Burke's age, if I had stayed up to finish assembling a toy, I'd have a tuff time staying in bed and would certainly try to sneak out to play with the new virgin toy.

Yes, I totally agree.

Kids can be VERY Quiet when up at night sneaking around the house.
No way would Burke be in the kitchen banging cupboards shut if he didn't want his folks to know he was up.

Here is what I think happened, this is my own opinion........

Burke and JB both got up in the night after they were sure both parents were asleep. They were excited about thier new toys and wanted to play with them somemore.

Burke got them both a snack...the big spoon fits right in with what a kid might grab. JB had pineapple and burke had tea, also fits in with how a child might make a glass of tea.

Back to playing and checking out the new loot. JB stars messing with Burkes toys, he gets mad, no he gets really angry because shes chiding him and won't stop messing with his things thats when he clobbers her knocking her out. Paniced because he thought he killed her he runs for mom and dad.

The rest is as we say is History!

packer

[KingCoyote]

Shill:

I will have to find that picture again...sorry....my notes are becoming a mountain that has aspirations of turning into an avalanche....

I have a tuff time not jumping out of bed to come back to the forum and post some brainstorm I have

KingCoyote

[KingCoyote]

Shill:

Here is one link to the pictures of the 12/23 food table. I have seen better and bigger pictures but I can't find them right now.

http://s79photobucket.com/albums/j149/whynut/?start=40

I hope that does the trick.

KingCoyote

[Louisadelmar]

Shill:

I will have to find that picture again...sorry....my notes are becoming a mountain that has aspirations of turning into an avalanche....

I have a tuff time not jumping out of bed to come back to the forum and post some brainstorm I have

KingCoyote

"It's the LaBrea tar pits. You get in it, you can't get out, and you die." PMPT, ppbk, p744.

[Zoey]

Shill:

Here is one link to the pictures of the 12/23 food table. I have seen better and bigger pictures but I can't find them right now.

http://s79photobucket.com/albums/j149/whynut/?start=40

I hope that does the trick.

KingCoyote

Hey KC, link doesn't work. Takes me to a site to get airline tickets, etc. Got a better one perhaps?

[andU]

Since John worked on the model with Burke before they retired to bed, IMO, he (John) would have noticed Burke making himself a glass of hot tea.

<Snip>



Men don't pay attention to details like that. If John was focused on the model, Burke could have left the area for a few minutes and John either thought he'd gone to the bathroom or didn't notice him gone at all.

[KingCoyote]

Shill: The only thing I can suggest is change the s79 to i79....I will keep looking for the right link

KC

[KingCoyote]

"It's the LaBrea tar pits. You get in it, you can't get out, and you die." PMPT, ppbk, p744.

:eek: but I am :lol:

KingCoyote

[bullmoose]

Yes, I totally agree.

Kids can be VERY Quiet when up at night sneaking around the house.
No way would Burke be in the kitchen banging cupboards shut if he didn't want his folks to know he was up.

Here is what I think happened, this is my own opinion........

Burke and JB both got up in the night after they were sure both parents were asleep. They were excited about thier new toys and wanted to play with them somemore.

Burke got them both a snack...the big spoon fits right in with what a kid might grab. JB had pineapple and burke had tea, also fits in with how a child might make a glass of tea.

Back to playing and checking out the new loot. JB stars messing with Burkes toys, he gets mad, no he gets really angry because shes chiding him and won't stop messing with his things thats when he clobbers her knocking her out. Paniced because he thought he killed her he runs for mom and dad.

The rest is as we say is History!

packerPacker: I will say this for your theory, that it makes as much or more sense than some I've seen here; however when you get to the part 'he clobbers her knocking her out. Panicked because he thought he killed her he runs for mom and dad. The rest is as we say is History!' How does your explanation figure in such a huge skull fracture. What do you propose he hit her with to do such a thing? And then when you say the rest is history- how do you figure that the cruel ligature garrotting of Jonbenet is history? The skull fracture is not readily visible, so there was no way to see how serious it was before the autopsy; anybody except a craven monster would have taken her to the hospital or just called 911. I would suggest reading the case more carefully before suggesting such a simplistic theory. Don't forget that Burke was questioned, illegally, at the White's house on 12/26 by the BPD, if anything as strange as what you are suggesting took place, even the BPD would have picked up on it. No, I just don't think it was a badly handled accident; it was a deliberate, coldhearted murder. The killer/s staged the scene to throw the suspicion onto the family.

[Tober]

Saying JBR must have gotten up and got a snack on her own seems like the best way to diffuse the issue.

IMO, the reason they wouldn't say JonBenet might have gotten up and gotten the pineapple on her own is because they are trying to avoid any opportunity at all for a confrontation/argument to have occurred between JonBenet and Patsy. By insisting she was asleep, put to bed, and didn't awake, it eliminates any possibility that such an incident took place.

[Tober]

Burke got them both a snack...the big spoon fits right in with what a kid might grab.

IMO, that photo can be tricky on the eye. At first glance the spoon appears to be overly large for the bowl. If one very carefully examines the spoon in context and comparison to the items around it, it isn't as large as it appears at first.

[LindaA]

No. When fresh pineapple is prepared it isn't uncommon for a very slight, but edible portion of the rind (as opposed to the majority of the rind which isn't edible) to remain on the prepared pieces.

Are you talking about the rind, the outermost layer which is brown and prickly, or the core, which is yellow and a bit harder than the edible portion? I wonder which one ST was referring to. The rind is completely unedible, but the core can be eaten if there's not too much of it.

[LindaA]

One other observation: one generally doesn't make iced tea by the cup. I don't how you could make such a small amount. Generally, one makes a quart or so by diluting the strong tea ( which has steeped for a time) made with boiling water with cold water, then adding ice cubes as you put it in glasses. Some people add ice to the pitcher as well.

[Tober]

One other observation: one generally doesn't make iced tea by the cup.

Based on Burke's fingerprints on the glass, etc. we can infer that Burke made and drank the tea. He wanted a glass of tea so he improvises. He grabs a tea bag, puts it in the glass, fills the glass with water, and now he has tea. The tea wasn't necessarily iced. He may have used hot water from the tap and drank it warm.

[Zoey]

IMO, that photo can be tricky on the eye. At first glance the spoon appears to be overly large for the bowl. If one very carefully examines the spoon in context and comparison to the items around it, it isn't as large as it appears at first.


IIRC, the spoon was determined to be a serving spoon, which is, in comparison to say a tablespoon or a teaspoon, a large spoon, one in which a normal person would not grab; although a child very well may have. IMO, it looks like a very large spoon.

[Zoey]

Are you talking about the rind, the outermost layer which is brown and prickly, or the core, which is yellow and a bit harder than the edible portion? I wonder which one ST was referring to. The rind is completely unedible, but the core can be eaten if there's not too much of it.


Exactly my point, that is why I questioned it be consistent right down to the rind. You cannot eat the rind, and who would want to anyway?

[Zoey]

Based on Burke's fingerprints on the glass, etc. we can infer that Burke made and drank the tea. He wanted a glass of tea so he improvises. He grabs a tea bag, puts it in the glass, fills the glass with water, and now he has tea. The tea wasn't necessarily iced. He may have used hot water from the tap and drank it warm.

Based on Burke's fingerprints being on the glass, we can assume that at some point he touched the glass. We have seen no report that his prints were found on the tag or the teabag itself. In fact, there is no report that any residue of tea was in the glass, just a picture of a glass with a teabag in it.

What child would drink hot tea made from hot tap water in a glass to begin with? Normal tea has a somewhat bitter taste unless you add sugar or sweetener, and as with my own kids, they like sweet stuff. Was there any residue of this type found in the glass? Was the glass even tested for anything besides being dusted for prints?

And I know, I know, someone is going to post right back at me that they drink their hot tea without any sweetener. I am just stating, IMO, that most children, if they even like hot tea, would prefer it to be somewhat sweet.

[Tober]

IMO, it looks like a very large spoon.

Zoey, the following question isn't directed at you, I'm just asking it in general. Why are some acting as if a serving spoon in a bowl of pineapple is unusual? Based on Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl and her statements that Burke wouldn't have gotten it, it can be inferred that Patsy got the bowl of pineapple for JonBenet. She probably just took what she wanted and ate it with her fingers. She probably just left the bowl out in laziness or in case Burke wanted some. Patsy probably assumed JonBenet would put the bowl away when finished. She didn't, so that would explain why it was left out.

[LindaA]

Based on Burke's fingerprints on the glass, etc. we can infer that Burke made and drank the tea. He wanted a glass of tea so he improvises. He grabs a tea bag, puts it in the glass, fills the glass with water, and now he has tea. The tea wasn't necessarily iced. He may have used hot water from the tap and drank it warm.

But he wouldn't have had anything with just tap water unless it was one of those super-hot deals. It would be pretty undrinkable. Besides, I thought he liked iced tea, not hot tea. It would be possible for his fingerprints to have gotten on the glass at some other time.

[Tober]

Exactly my point, that is why I questioned it be consistent right down to the rind. You cannot eat the rind, and who would want to anyway?

See post #85 by SnarkyCow on page 3.

[Louisadelmar]

Are you talking about the rind, the outermost layer which is brown and prickly, or the core, which is yellow and a bit harder than the edible portion? I wonder which one ST was referring to. The rind is completely unedible, but the core can be eaten if there's not too much of it.

Sometimes the pineapple will have little brownish flecks where the rind wasn't completely removed. I assume its edible though I usually cut it off.

[User615]

But he wouldn't have had anything with just tap water unless it was one of those super-hot deals. It would be pretty undrinkable. Besides, I thought he liked iced tea, not hot tea. It would be possible for his fingerprints to have gotten on the glass at some other time.

I can't imagine a kid drinking tea like this. I am new to these threads on JBR, but after reading this one, there certainly are lots of questions. I hope I am not bringing things up that have already been discussed. Was it normal to give a child tea before going to bed, considering how much caffeine it has in it? If John was up helping him work on his toy, why didn't he help Burke make tea? Is it reasonable for a child as young as JBR to get up in the middle of the night and go down 3 flights of stairs to have a snack? Could she even open a refrigerator door like the one at the house?

[Tober]

What child would drink hot tea made from hot tap water in a glass to begin with?

A child would, that's my point. Especially a smart kid like Burke. His fingerprints were on the glass. He wanted tea, so he improvised, making it in a glass. He wasn't helpless and he was pretty mature. He could certainly make himself a glass of tea.

[Zoey]

See post #85 by SnarkyCow on page 3.


Tober, thank you, have read Snarky's post, but something else that can easily be argued about. I, too, eat pineapple on a regular basis, and do not, at any time eat the rind of the pineapple. I might get some of the softer core, but not the rind. So, it is Snarky saying he/she eats the rind and me saying I don't eat the rind. It is like everything else, he says/she says/they say.

If you go to any website for instructions on how to cut a freash pineapple, they explain thoroughly to cut the rind off of the pineapple, that this is not edible.

[Zoey]

A child would, that's my point. Especially a smart kid like Burke. His fingerprints were on the glass. He wanted tea, so he improvised, making it in a glass. He wasn't helpless and he was pretty mature. He could certainly make himself a glass of tea.

Again, I have kids. None of them would drink tap water hot tea. And my kids are just as smart as Burke. Yes, his prints were on the glass. This does not prove he drank tea. It proves at some point, he touched the glass. He may have had a glass of water and someone else in the house at some time put their used tea bag in the glass.

No offense to Burke by any means, by why do you continually post that he was a smart, mature kid? Seems to me he was a normal, 9 year old boy, from what I have read, but then, I didn't know him personally, did you?

[Tober]

I hope I am not bringing things up that have already been discussed. Was it normal to give a child tea before going to bed, considering how much caffeine it has in it?

Oh, no worry, discussion is good. Tea has a lot less caffeine than coffee. IMO, no one gave Burke the tea, he got it for himself. That would explain why it's in a glass, why it was at the seat position of the table where he normally sat, and why only his fingerprints were on the glass. That would also explain why it was left out. Though he was pretty mature, he was still a typical kid.

[Louisadelmar]

I can't imagine a kid drinking tea like this. I am new to these threads on JBR, but after reading this one, there certainly are lots of questions. I hope I am not bringing things up that have already been discussed. Was it normal to give a child tea before going to bed, considering how much caffeine it has in it? If John was up helping him work on his toy, why didn't he help Burke make tea? Is it reasonable for a child as young as JBR to get up in the middle of the night and go down 3 flights of stairs to have a snack? Could she even open a refrigerator door like the one at the house?

I agree about the caffeine. In the unlikely event Burke did make himself teaI doubt it was with adult approval.

JonBenet's bedroom was on the second floor so she'd only have to go down one flight.

[User615]

Oh, no worry, discussion is good. Tea has a lot less caffeine than coffee. IMO, no one gave Burke the tea, he got it for himself. That would explain why it's in a glass, why it was at the seat position of the table where he normally sat, and why only his fingerprints were on the glass. That would also explain why it was left out. Though he was pretty mature, he was still a typical kid.

When I said give I should have said "allow" a kid his age to have tea before going to bed. I can't figure a 9 year old trying to make sweat tea at that hour either. While it may have less caffeine than coffee (but what kid drinks coffee anyway...), it still has a lot. Again, where was John while he was doing this? Now I have about a 100 more questions, this thing can get addictive. Did the Ramseys always go to bed this early? 9:15 seems a little strange. Most adults don't sleep but 6-7 hours. Did they watch TV for hours (ignoring the obvious about sex)? If they were asleep at 10:00 did they normally get up at 5:00 or was this because of Xmas?

[Louisadelmar]

They were leaving for Michigan the next morning

[SnarkyCow]

Tober, thank you, have read Snarky's post, but something else that can easily be argued about. I, too, eat pineapple on a regular basis, and do not, at any time eat the rind of the pineapple. I might get some of the softer core, but not the rind. So, it is Snarky saying he/she eats the rind and me saying I don't eat the rind. It is like everything else, he says/she says/they say.

If you go to any website for instructions on how to cut a freash pineapple, they explain thoroughly to cut the rind off of the pineapple, that this is not edible.

I am not talking about the brown outside rind of the pineapple. It's just like when you cut up fresh melon, sometimes you leave a little bit of the inside of the rind on the fruit if you cut it too close to the outer rind. I am not saying I eat the hard, brown rind.

Edited to add: I know y'all don't know me from Eve, but I do not feel the need lie to make a point. You'll just have to take my word for it. And if you choose not to - that's fine too.

[Tober]

Besides, I thought he liked iced tea, not hot tea.
Maybe he drank it warm, maybe not. He may have made it with hot tap water, then put ice in it or let it cool down. He may have made it with hot tap water and drank it warm. If someone likes tea, they like tea. They may prefer iced over hot, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't occasionally have some warm tea. If someone likes cheeseburgers, they essentially like hamburgers. Though they prefer cheeseburgers, that doesn't mean they wouldn't occasionally have a hamburger.

[Louisadelmar]

I am not talking about the brown outside rind of the pineapple. It's just like when you cut up fresh melon, sometimes you leave a little bit of the inside of the rind on the fruit if you cut it too close to the outer rind. I am not saying I eat the hard, brown rind.

Edited to add: I know y'all don't know me from Eve, but I do not feel the need lie to make a point. You'll just have to take my word for it. And if you choose not to - that's fine too.

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/what/food_and_beverages/food/445538_preparing_pineapple.php?id=445538

At this link is a picture of the kind of spots that are sometimes left on prepared pineapple. It has more than what you find in most American markets but the principle is the same.

[User615]

They were leaving for Michigan the next morning

Thanks, I will try to get up to speed before asking more obvious questions.

[SnarkyCow]

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/what/food_and_beverages/food/445538_preparing_pineapple.php?id=445538

At this link is a picture of the kind of spots that are sometimes left on prepared pineapple. It has more than what you find in most American markets but the principle is the same.


Thanks for the picture! That is exactly what I am talking about! :)

[Louisadelmar]

Thanks, I will try to get up to speed before asking more obvious questions.

If you really want to join us in the tar pits read Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Lawrence Schiller, Death of Innocence by the Ramseys and JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas. You can get them 2nd hand from Amazon for almost nothing. Get the paperback versions as they are more up to date.

[bullmoose]

A teabag of herbal tea has no caffeine, a regular teabag will make a cup of tea that has about half the caffeine content of a similar sized cup of coffee. I typically drink my tea black, unsweetened, but I find it hard to believe a nine-year old would have, even a smart boy, like Burke. I find it very difficult to believe that a smart boy, like Burke would drink regular tea at 9PM or later; I won't unless I want to stay awake. Surely the BPD determined at some point what kind of teabag was in the glass, I wonder what kind it was?

[User615]

If you really want to join us in the tar pits read Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Lawrence Schiller, Death of Innocence by the Ramseys and JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas. You can get them 2nd hand from Amazon for almost nothing. Get the paperback versions as they are more up to date.

Thanks, I will start looking. Are any of those by the retired detective they brought in that quit in disgust over the incompetence of the investigation?

[User615]

A teabag of herbal tea has no caffeine, a regular teabag will make a cup of tea that has about half the caffeine content of a similar sized cup of coffee. I typically drink my tea black, unsweetened, but I find it hard to believe a nine-year old would have, even a smart boy, like Burke. I find it very difficult to believe that a smart boy, like Burke would drink regular tea at 9PM or later; I won't unless I want to stay awake. Surely the BPD determined at some point what kind of teabag was in the glass, I wonder what kind it was?

My thoughts too, and maybe Coyote can add that to his list of facts, if it is known. So many unanswered questions remain.

[Tober]

Could she even open a refrigerator door like the one at the house?

John told Lou Smit that he doesn't think JonBenet would have been able to.

[LindaA]

A child would, that's my point. Especially a smart kid like Burke. His fingerprints were on the glass. He wanted tea, so he improvised, making it in a glass. He wasn't helpless and he was pretty mature. He could certainly make himself a glass of tea.

But you can't make tea without boiling water. If he used tap water the resulting liquid would just be water with a little coloring. It would just taste like warm water. Herbal tea would be even worse. Besides, we know he liked iced tea -- not hot tea. I really think the tea bag came from the next day when there were people around fixing food and drink and not from the nigith of the 25th. It justm akes more sense to me.

[LindaA]

Let me add that if he added an ice cube -- that's all a glass like that would hold, it would melt almost instantly. I jsut don't see Burke drinking something like this -- it just doesn't work for me.

[Zoey]

But you can't make tea without boiling water. If he used tap water the resulting liquid would just be water with a little coloring. It would just taste like warm water. Herbal tea would be even worse. Besides, we know he liked iced tea -- not hot tea. I really think the tea bag came from the next day when there were people around fixing food and drink and not from the nigith of the 25th. It justm akes more sense to me.


This was driving me crazy, so I did an experiment. My hot water heater is set at 140 degrees (don't know if this is normal, but this is my setting). I got a Lipton 100% natural tea bag and one glass. Putting cold water in the glass, the tea would not seap at all. Just left with a used tea bag and a glass of water.

I then ran the hot water until it was hot to touch, filled the glass, and inserted the tea bag. After 5-6 minutes, it was nothing more than brownish colored water. I then had my 10 year old nephew take a drink. He loves sweet ice tea. He actually gagged. Said it tasted like dirty water. I then had my 8 year old niece take a drink. She spit it back in the sink. Said it was "awefully bad." I tasted it and decided no child or adult would even think about drinking this brown water. It was nasty.

[Tober]

But you can't make tea without boiling water.

You most certainly can. While making it with boiling water is the most efficient way, it can still be made with water that hasn't reached boiling temperature.

[Zoey]

I am not talking about the brown outside rind of the pineapple. It's just like when you cut up fresh melon, sometimes you leave a little bit of the inside of the rind on the fruit if you cut it too close to the outer rind. I am not saying I eat the hard, brown rind.

Edited to add: I know y'all don't know me from Eve, but I do not feel the need lie to make a point. You'll just have to take my word for it. And if you choose not to - that's fine too.


SnarkyCow, my apologies. I did not mean to implicate in anyway that you were lying. I was just stating the post from ST's book states the pineapple was the same right down to the rind, and I stated that the rind would not be something a person would eat. I was referring to the hard, outer part. I guess I did not make my posting clear. Again, my apologies to you.

[Tober]

I jsut don't see Burke drinking something like this -- it just doesn't work for me.

Burke liked tea. His fingerprints were the only ones on the glass. The glass was at the seat position of the table where he normally sat. It can be inferred that Burke made and drank the tea sometime after they arrived home but before going to bed.

[SnarkyCow]

SnarkyCow, my apologies. I did not mean to implicate in anyway that you were lying. I was just stating the post from ST's book states the pineapple was the same right down to the rind, and I stated that the rind would not be something a person would eat. I was referring to the hard, outer part. I guess I did not make my posting clear. Again, my apologies to you.

No problem at all - I apologize if I came across snappish - I didn't mean to. I just don't think I explained what I meant very well - Louisadelmar said it much better than I could and she backed it up with a pic. :)

I'm sorry for sounding defensive. You don't owe me an apology at all. :beer:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/snarky44/avata2.gif

[Zoey]

Burke liked tea. His fingerprints were the only ones on the glass. The glass was at the seat position of the table where he normally sat. It can be inferred that Burke made and drank the tea sometime after they arrived home but before going to bed.


Burke liked sweet iced tea. His fingerprints could have been on the glass from a glass of water. How do you know where Burke sat at the table? And there is nothing to prove he made and drank the tea sometime after they arrived home. IMO, you are trying to post facts that you have nothing to back them up with.

Tober, unless you were there or you know Burke personally, your continuous posting of the same thing over and over proves nothing. For every time you post this same thing, it can be disputed, as you have provided no proof.

[Zoey]

No problem at all - I apologize if I came across snappish - I didn't mean to. I just don't think I explained what I meant very well - Louisadelmar said it much better than I could and she backed it up with a pic. :)

I'm sorry for sounding defensive. You don't owe me an apology at all. :beer:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/snarky44/avata2.gif

Louisadelmar:

Thank you for the link. I truly did not mean to be snottish to Snarkycow, especially since I like his little dancing cow!

[Louisadelmar]

Not to worry. I think we were just all frustrated because we had no common word to describe the little brown flecks/bits/leftovers/etc :-)

[Tober]

I really don't think the pineapple and the tea bag in the glass were placed there at the same time and by the same person.

Excellent point. Many presume they were, but that isn't necessarily the case. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. Based on Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple, we can infer that one of them got it for JonBenet. Based on Patsy's and John's statements we can further infer that it wasn't Burke. That leaves us with Patsy getting the bowl of pineapple for JonBenet. Based on Burke's fingerprints being the only ones on the glass, etc. we can infer that he made the tea, drank it, and left the glass there. We can infer that JonBenet took what she wanted of the pineapple, probably eating it with her fingers, and left the bowl there.

[Kor]

I doubt the parents desperately tried to avoid pineapple issue or the pineapple was one of indications that had a part in with parents’ responsibility to JB’s death besides not turning on the house alarm, checking the house for any intruders including under beds, completely securing all the windows and doors before their bedtime, or have a guard dog which we can’t blame them for those. If JB was hungry, why she ate only one piece of pineapple? Did JB’s tragedy happened or started while she ate the pineapple? It is possible, but would it make more sense if either JB helped herself with pineapple somehow while others were asleep same time encountered an intruder or JB was given pineapples by an intruder, who familiar to JB, but JB ate only one piece maybe because she was uncomfortable or interrupted.

If all of Ramsey were awaked when JB ate the pineapple, how could one of them killed JB accidentally or not and to cover it up altogether when not one confession from any of them for a decade. If one of Ramsey did it while all others were asleep, still it would be very difficult for one of them to withhold the guilt by not confessing about it at all. Some or many of evidences may or may not be indicative to the killer’s comfortable being inside the house, but while some seemed were, there were other people with familiarity to Ramsey or the house could be as comfy sneaking around until after JB died. The killer may be too comfy, but a tea bag being in glass might be a sign of anxious or rushed included before Ramsey got home or after Ramsey went bed if an intruder was preparing that tea for him or herself. The more reasons I am being suspicions about Linda and Mervin, or their circle, but that’s just my opinion I reckon.

[Tober]

And there is nothing to prove he made and drank the tea sometime after they arrived home.

I'm a bit swamped right now. Give me some time, and I'll explain how it can be inferred that Burke made the tea, drank it, and left the glass there sometime after they arrived home but before he went to bed.

[LindaA]

You most certainly can. While making it with boiling water is the most efficient way, it can still be made with water that hasn't reached boiling temperature.
No, Tober, you can't make it with tap water unless you have one of those devices that instantly heats it super-hot.

[LindaA]

You most certainly can. While making it with boiling water is the most efficient way, it can still be made with water that hasn't reached boiling temperature.

I refer you to post #152. Believe it or not.

[Vanillyn]

I'm 51 years old and I've made tea in a glass as opposed to a cup all my life. I suppose I learned it from my parents. I make it from water boiled in a kettle from the stove or by using my single serve coffee maker.

However, I do use a conical shaped pilsner glass, which is considerably thicker glass than the one in this case.

For the record, I have never been in Boulder.

[thewhitewitch1]

Re: JB opening refridgerator door.



John told Lou Smit that he doesn't think JonBenet would have been able to.

Make of this what you will but I find it odd:

1998 interview/JR:

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I know I looked in the refrigerator.

17 We have this walk-in refrigerator. We always

18 worried about the kids getting in there.

19 LOU SMIT: Before or after the 911 call?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was after, probably.

21 You see, as I recall, that was pretty quick.


If you've got a kidnapping note, why on earth would you look for your kid in a walk-in refridgerator? I've got the pineapple on my brain and am wondering if there is any significance to this.
You have JR saying he doesn't think she can open the door to the fridge and then he says he worries about the kids getting in there....and then he checks in there almost immediately after the 911 call. Why would he do that?
Could mean something...could mean nothing. But if you've got a ransom note, I can't imagine why anyone would even think to look in a walk-in refridgerator for their kidnapped child. :shrug:
Thoughts, anyone?

[KingCoyote]

I had forgotten about JR checking the refrigerator which was one of the many things he "checked" on that morning.

He checked down in the basement twice...once between 7 and 9 according to one interview. He went down between 10 and 11 and even stated to Stewart Long, Melinda's fiancee, that he found JBR at 11. We all know he went immediately to the basement to "check" at 1:00 PM

He checked on the mail thinking there might be a letter from the kidnappers. (I still think he could have gone outside to meet the mailman...just because they had a door slot for mail didn't mean he couldn't have gone out the Butler doors on the north side of the house for some reason.)

He used binoculars to check the alleys behind his house and across the street.

In my thread Did the Ransom Note Grow Legs I posted another similar phenomenon where a plastic garbage bag next to the stairwell moved between pictures. (Did a Garbage bag grow legs?) Was he also checking on plastic bags containing laundry?

I thinked he might have checked on PR once or twice as well (but I think she and Priscilla White were making several secret and quiet cell phone calls to Pam Griffin and were probably busy. [Shame on you KC for getting sarcastic])

His actions IMO are very, very puzzling that morning. He seemed manic. I am more than willing to allow a wide latitude to the parents of a child who just found their daughter missing with a ransom note but there has to be a limit to that allowance. I don't like to judge anyone especially not a parent in that situation and I try to stay as objective and neutral as possible but I have to wonder about some of his actions. He didn't seem all that communicative with his wife or the police regarding all of his actions either.

KingCoyote :confused:

[Tober]

Like the window issue with John, the pineapple is only mysterious and important when John and Patsy need it to be. When they looked around surely they noticed the bowl of pineapple. Had it been so out-of-place and not belonged there, surely they would have mentioned it to police saying something to the effect of "Hey, what's this odd set-up? We didn't put this here. How did this get here? This shouldn't be here." But no. It only becomes mysterious and important when it's convenient for them. The police questioned the victim advocates about the pineapple. Based on the police line of questioning to John and Patsy, we can infer that the victim advocates didn't bring in the pineapple. We can also infer based on their line of questioning that none of the guests brought in the pineapple or got it out while there. Further, pineapple from that bowl was found in JonBenet's upper intestine, so we can infer that the pineapple was left out after she consumed what she wanted of it. Notice what John and Patsy are doing with the pineapple issue. They are working it into their plan as they go along, while at the same time distancing themselves from any involvement in it.

[shill]

IMO, the reason they wouldn't say JonBenet might have gotten up and gotten the pineapple on her own is because they are trying to avoid any opportunity at all for a confrontation/argument to have occurred between JonBenet and Patsy. By insisting she was asleep, put to bed, and didn't awake, it eliminates any possibility that such an incident took place.

If Burke claims that JB was awake, and Patsy claims she would have heard Burke getting out the bowl and glass, wouldn't you think Burke would have heard the confrontation/argument they had and remembered it?

[shill]

Re: JB opening refridgerator door.





Make of this what you will but I find it odd:

1998 interview/JR:

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I know I looked in the refrigerator.

17 We have this walk-in refrigerator. We always

18 worried about the kids getting in there.

19 LOU SMIT: Before or after the 911 call?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was after, probably.

21 You see, as I recall, that was pretty quick.


If you've got a kidnapping note, why on earth would you look for your kid in a walk-in refridgerator? I've got the pineapple on my brain and am wondering if there is any significance to this.
You have JR saying he doesn't think she can open the door to the fridge and then he says he worries about the kids getting in there....and then he checks in there almost immediately after the 911 call. Why would he do that?
Could mean something...could mean nothing. But if you've got a ransom note, I can't imagine why anyone would even think to look in a walk-in refridgerator for their kidnapped child. :shrug:
Thoughts, anyone?

I thought the 911 operator asked them to, or if they had checked the house, but I could be imagining it.

But it does show that contrary to Patsy saying that JB couldn't get herself a snack from the refrigerator, they did believe it would be possible for her to get the refrigerator open.

[shill]

In my thread Did the Ransom Note Grow Legs I posted another similar phenomenon where a plastic garbage bag next to the stairwell moved between pictures. (Did a Garbage bag grow legs?) Was he also checking on plastic bags containing laundry?

In some of the pictures of the basement, it appears the box of cigars moves around in them. These were taken after the body was found, so it wasn't a case of before and after photos.

[shill]

Like the window issue with John, the pineapple is only mysterious and important when John and Patsy need it to be. When they looked around surely they noticed the bowl of pineapple. Had it been so out-of-place and not belonged there, surely they would have mentioned it to police saying something to the effect of "Hey, what's this odd set-up? We didn't put this here. How did this get here? This shouldn't be here." But no. It only becomes mysterious and important when it's convenient for them. The police questioned the victim advocates about the pineapple. Based on the police line of questioning to John and Patsy, we can infer that the victim advocates didn't bring in the pineapple. We can also infer based on their line of questioning that none of the guests brought in the pineapple or got it out while there. Further, pineapple from that bowl was found in JonBenet's upper intestine, so we can infer that the pineapple was left out after she consumed what she wanted of it. Notice what John and Patsy are doing with the pineapple issue. They are working it into their plan as they go along, while at the same time distancing themselves from any involvement in it.

If they had fed her the pineapple at 8pm at the party, then they would have reason to deny it or deny that anyone gave her pineapple at the party.
That is motivation to lie about it.

[shill]

Shill:

Here is one link to the pictures of the 12/23 food table. I have seen better and bigger pictures but I can't find them right now.

http://s79photobucket.com/albums/j149/whynut/?start=40

I hope that does the trick.

KingCoyote
Tried it, and with an i, no luck.:shrug:

[Athena]

If they had fed her the pineapple at 8pm at the party, then they would have reason to deny it or deny that anyone gave her pineapple at the party.
That is motivation to lie about it.

Figured I'd throw my two cents in by sharing the pictures of the bowl from the party of the 23rd. It is quite possible the 'bowl of pineapple' was leftovers:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc232.jpg

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc234.jpg

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc237.jpg

[LindaA]

I'm 51 years old and I've made tea in a glass as opposed to a cup all my life. I suppose I learned it from my parents. I make it from water boiled in a kettle from the stove or by using my single serve coffee maker.

However, I do use a conical shaped pilsner glass, which is considerably thicker glass than the one in this case.

For the record, I have never been in Boulder.

Sure, you can make one cup of hot tea, I never said you couldn't. But I don't think you can make one small glass of iced tea unless you had another container. You'd need more than that small glass to dilute the hot tea with cold water and accommodate ice cubes. Besides, as someone has already mentioned, that glass would have broken if someone had put boiling or nearly boiling water in it. You can also make one cup of hot tea in a microwave, but the water needs to come to a boil or pretty close to it.

Burke could have drunk out of the glass at any time before going to the Whites' and left it on the table. Someone later could have discarded a wet tea bag in the glass after making a cup of hot tea.

[thewhitewitch1]

I thought the 911 operator asked them to, or if they had checked the house, but I could be imagining it.

But it does show that contrary to Patsy saying that JB couldn't get herself a snack from the refrigerator, they did believe it would be possible for her to get the refrigerator open.


No, I don't believe the operator told them to check the house.
It does show it was possible for JB to get the fridge open but then JR tells Lou Smit that he doesn't think she can do it. Add to that that Patsy said the kids never got up and got themselves snacks in the night and my conclusion is that she didn't. But that's just MOO.
Rather morbid thought, but...wondering if JBs body had been placed in the walk-in fridge after her death and later moved. John looking in there and then telling this to LE may have been a freudian slip. We know that the temperature affects the death process (rigor mortis), and, while not saying either Ramsey had knowledge of this, if they did, it would have been an excellent way of disguising or confusing the actual time of death.
I saw a Foresnic Files case once where a man turned up the A/C in his apartment after killing his wife for just the same purpose.
Crazy idea, I'm sure but just thought I would throw it out there.

[andU]

No, I don't believe the operator told them to check the house.
It does show it was possible for JB to get the fridge open but then JR tells Lou Smit that he doesn't think she can do it. Add to that that Patsy said the kids never got up and got themselves snacks in the night and my conclusion is that she didn't. But that's just MOO.
Rather morbid thought, but...wondering if JBs body had been placed in the walk-in fridge after her death and later moved. John looking in there and then telling this to LE may have been a freudian slip. We know that the temperature affects the death process (rigor mortis), and, while not saying either Ramsey had knowledge of this, if they did, it would have been an excellent way of disguising or confusing the actual time of death.
I saw a Foresnic Files case once where a man turned up the A/C in his apartment after killing his wife for just the same purpose.
Crazy idea, I'm sure but just thought I would throw it out there.

Not such a crazy idea, it could work also for an intruder, kill her in her bedroom, put her in the fridge while the rn is written (as a ploy, to mess with minds, just as putting her body in the fridge would be) then stage the basement and move her there. The intruder, could then leave via the butler door. I don't think this person was concerned at all about being caught in the house, it was part of the excitement.

[thewhitewitch1]

Not such a crazy idea, it could work also for an intruder, kill her in her bedroom, put her in the fridge while the rn is written (as a ploy, to mess with minds, just as putting her body in the fridge would be) then stage the basement and move her there. The intruder, could then leave via the butler door. I don't think this person was concerned at all about being caught in the house, it was part of the excitement.


An intruder would have no reason to try to cover the time of death and would be taking a huge risk (along with all of the other huge risks he took) by putting her in the fridge. What if someone got up during the night for a snack? I think it's highly implausable to think that an intruder just putzed around that house dropping false clues hither and yon, taking all kinds of chances of getting caught. I can see no reason for an intruder to write a RN unless he intended on actually kidnapping JB. If that were the case, why didn't he take her body? If he wrote the RN as a false clue, why not make it shorter? Why take the time to ramble? Why write a practice note? Why put the pens and paper back exactly where they belonged? If you want to incriminate the Ramseys, why not strangle her with Beths scarf (which was right on the counter at the bottom of the spiral staircase)? Why not just put her back in her bed? Why hide the body at all?
If this intruder was known to the Ramseys (an "inside job" by someone who knows their habits and layout of their home), why hasn't this person been caught by now? Why isn't anyone within their close circle of friends at least high on the suspect list? Or anyone who knew the Ramseys well and knew their home well (workers, associates etc). I think we can conclude pretty safely that it wasn't a "random intruder".
Also, when John says he checked the walk-in fridge, how does that indicate an intruder? I was just pointing out how odd it seemed for him to check there and then came up with my wild idea of him (and Patsy) stashing her body there.

[Tober]

You have JR saying he doesn't think she can open the door to the fridge and then he says he worries about the kids getting in there....and then he checks in there almost immediately after the 911 call. Why would he do that?

I think the entire scope of case-related commentary by John and Patsy contains some of the most bizarre utterings I've ever heard. Certain things appear to be forthright in their minds and somehow interrelated. They both appear to be subconsciously dwelling on certain things.

[andU]

An intruder would have no reason to try to cover the time of death and would be taking a huge risk (along with all of the other huge risks he took) by putting her in the fridge. What if someone got up during the night for a snack? I think it's highly implausable to think that an intruder just putzed around that house dropping false clues hither and yon, taking all kinds of chances of getting caught. I can see no reason for an intruder to write a RN unless he intended on actually kidnapping JB. If that were the case, why didn't he take her body? If he wrote the RN as a false clue, why not make it shorter? Why take the time to ramble? Why write a practice note? Why put the pens and paper back exactly where they belonged? If you want to incriminate the Ramseys, why not strangle her with Beths scarf (which was right on the counter at the bottom of the spiral staircase)? Why not just put her back in her bed? Why hide the body at all?
If this intruder was known to the Ramseys (an "inside job" by someone who knows their habits and layout of their home), why hasn't this person been caught by now? Why isn't anyone within their close circle of friends at least high on the suspect list? Or anyone who knew the Ramseys well and knew their home well (workers, associates etc). I think we can conclude pretty safely that it wasn't a "random intruder".
Also, when John says he checked the walk-in fridge, how does that indicate an intruder? I was just pointing out how odd it seemed for him to check there and then came up with my wild idea of him (and Patsy) stashing her body there.

Needless to say, I don't have all the answers, just as you don't for the RDI theory. If any of us did have, there would be an arrest by now. This case has many quirks, I believe anything could have happened. I do believe it was an intruder (someone univited, although someone who may have been known by the Ramseys, but also someone who has a strong dislike for them) or even two intruders, one of which had pedofile fantacies.

[Tober]

But I don't think you can make one small glass of iced tea unless you had another container.

You most certainly can make one glass of iced tea. This is the problem with the intruder theory. It requires a logic-defying stretch on every point.

[Zoey]

You most certainly can make one glass of iced tea. This is the problem with the intruder theory. It requires a logic-defying stretch on every point.


Tober:

I don't think the issues regarding the hot tea, iced tea, any kind of tea in that one glass with Burke's prints on it have anything to do with whether you are IDI. I think you, as a PDI/RDI are defying logic just as much as anyone else.

There is a glass on a table with a used tea bag in it with a fingerprint of Burke. You are insisting repeatedly that you know he liked tea, therefore he made hot tea in this glass. And yes, it would have had to have been hot tea to begin with, which, please see my post 152, is not possible with normal hot tap water. It has to be boiling water.

As an IDI, I say Burke did not make himself a glass of tea of any kind. You as a PDI/RDI insists he did. We all can go round and round about this one subject until the cows come home (wish I had Snarky's cow smiley to insert here). I say, IMO, that unless the glass and tea bag were tested for DNA, unless Burke admitted he made himself tea (which there are no interviews we are privy to to get this information) or you personally know and spoke with Burke or you were in that house when Burke supposedly made himself a pee warm glass of brown water, there is no way to say that you know (or using your word - infer) that Burke had anything to do with that glass other than touch it at some point.

He could have very easily gotten it out of the dishwasher earlier in the day, sat it down, and one of the many people that were in and out of that kitchen could have put their used tea bag in the glass. There is absolutely nothing logic-defying about that.

Of course, this is just all my opinion, as there is no way to provide any links to anything regarding this, as Burke's files are all sealed.

[LindaA]

You most certainly can make one glass of iced tea. This is the problem with the intruder theory. It requires a logic-defying stretch on every point.

I'm thick; you're going to have to explain how a glass of potable iced tea could have been made in the little glass. Your saying so doesn't cut it with me. Sorry

[Tober]

IMO, the reason they wouldn't say JonBenet might have gotten up and gotten the pineapple on her own is because they are trying to avoid any opportunity at all for a confrontation/argument to have occurred between JonBenet and Patsy. By insisting she was asleep, put to bed, and didn't awake, it eliminates any possibility that such an incident took place.

To elaborate on my above opinion: Based on the severity of JonBenet's head injury, it can be inferred that the person who caused it was angry with her. Based on her being bludgeoned in the head once, as opposed to a second or multiple times, it can be inferred that she was bludgeoned in a moment of rage, after which her assailant immediately regained their composure. We know JonBenet absolutely consumed the pineapple (which belonged in the home and wasn't foreign to it or brought in) in the home, while awake (obviously), sometime after they arrived home. We can infer that a relatively short time after she consumed the pineapple, her assailant became angry with her. If Patsy is being untruthful about giving JonBenet the pineapple, that means John and Patsy are being untruthful about a sleeping JonBenet being put to bed and not awakening. The fair question then must be asked: What happened a relatively short time after JonBenet ate the pineapple (which she ate sometime after they arrived home) that caused the individual responsible for her head injury to become angry with her?

[Tober]

What happened a relatively short time after JonBenet ate the pineapple (which she ate sometime after they arrived home) that caused the individual responsible for her head injury to become angry with her?

A further question can be asked: Why are John and Patsy trying to hide this?

[LindaA]

A further question can be asked: Why are John and Patsy trying to hide this?

A further question can be asked: why have you not explained your method for brewing a single glass of iced tea, since you are so adamant that it can be done?

[thewhitewitch1]

Needless to say, I don't have all the answers, just as you don't for the RDI theory. If any of us did have, there would be an arrest by now. This case has many quirks, I believe anything could have happened. I do believe it was an intruder (someone univited, although someone who may have been known by the Ramseys, but also someone who has a strong dislike for them) or even two intruders, one of which had pedofile fantacies.

You are very right. I don't have all of the answers. I hope I never imply that I do. I believe the Ramseys are involved because that is where the evidence leads me and based on that evidence, I see nothing that indicates a pedophile was involved. A jab in the vagina with a paintbrush is not a sexual act, IMO. I find it hard to believe that a pedophile would "break into" a home with all of the occupants in it just to sexually molest a child. There are easier ways to get at your intended victim. If you want to kidnap her and then act out your fantasies, you do it. You don't play garrote games with her right there and take the risk of being caught. You don't write a ransom note and leave the body there. You don't feed the child pineapple (or anything) and you don't go looking around in the house for items to use in your crime - you bring them with you. If you want to strangle the child (for sex games or otherwise), you don't need to construct a "garrote". A lot of other items would have done just as well (such as the scarf). You wouldn't put a suitcase under a window to climb up when there was a chair right there in front of the trainroom door. You wouldn't do a lot of things this intruder did. Most of it makes no sense regarding the intruder theory and that is how I base my opinion that the Ramseys are involved.
BTW...I think the glass with the tea bag is irrelevant to this crime. It could have been put there at any time by anyone and the teabag could just have been dropped in it after tea was made in another cup. We all know the Ramseys never qualified for the "Good Housekeeping award".

[bullmoose]

Tober: Your posts are full of so many assumptions; which you then build upon to make your next assumptions and so on. Based on what you infer from your basic assumptions that John and Patsy are lying and responsible, your whole case rests. I find your logic underwhelming in its ability to convince me of their involvement in their daughter's gruesome murder.

[bullmoose]

To TWW: I respect your being a RDI, and your theories; but I disagree that anyone broke in with them there; IMO the intruder/s were waiting; I believe the 'ransom' note was written before they came home; I believe he/they brought what they wanted to the scene[duct tape, cord] and deliberately used the paintbrush, like the strange ransom note just to throw suspicion on the Ramseys. I do not believe the garrotte was anything but a cruel way to murder Jonbenet, I think the skull fracture was either to be sure she was dead or was done to keep her from struggling while being strangled; I also believe the killer/s walked out of one of the doors, not crawling back out the window. On the other hand, I sort of think that teabag was irrelevant, too, my guess is that the BPD left it there. I think, as I have all along that someone wanted to hurt and destroy the Ramseys for their own sick reason. JMHO

[Zoey]

I have a question that may or may not be something anyone cares to answer, but I hope someone will take the time to do so.

The pineapple issue is another thing that is driving me crazy, but I have no way of running my own little test on this one, so I have questions.

Let's say I consume a bite of an apple and three hours later I die. Sitting out on the table at my home are two apples, both with bites taken out of them. The autopsy report comes in, and the coronor finds a reddish, white substance that may be consistent with apple in my intestine.

Now, because the apples are out on the table, we can deduce that the apple in my system came from one of those apples.

Can you honestly tell, right down to the core, which apple I took a bite from, not based on fingerprints or mouth prints or saliva or anything like that? All you have is an apple, right?

What I am asking in a round about way is, how can they possible know that the pineapple in JB's intestine was the exact same pineapple that was supposedly in that bowl? Isn't pineapple, pineapple? Is each pineapple unique in its structure or something? How can someone tell that the pineapple she consumed was not consumed somewhere other than at home? Would pineapple served at the White's (and I am not saying it was, just asking questions) be different than pineapple served at the house down the street?

And could the coroner be wrong, although I don't think he is wrong in that he says it could be a vegetable or fruit, which may be pineapple?

Couldn't there be a, then again, it may be banana, or there again, it may be celery? Because Steve Thomas says it is pineapple, do we have to believe that it is? Is there somewhere else I should be looking for these answers?

[thewhitewitch1]

I have a question that may or may not be something anyone cares to answer, but I hope someone will take the time to do so.

The pineapple issue is another thing that is driving me crazy, but I have no way of running my own little test on this one, so I have questions.

Let's say I consume a bite of an apple and three hours later I die. Sitting out on the table at my home are two apples, both with bites taken out of them. The autopsy report comes in, and the coronor finds a reddish, white substance that may be consistent with apple in my intestine.

Now, because the apples are out on the table, we can deduce that the apple in my system came from one of those apples.

Can you honestly tell, right down to the core, which apple I took a bite from, not based on fingerprints or mouth prints or saliva or anything like that? All you have is an apple, right?

What I am asking in a round about way is, how can they possible know that the pineapple in JB's intestine was the exact same pineapple that was supposedly in that bowl? Isn't pineapple, pineapple? Is each pineapple unique in its structure or something? How can someone tell that the pineapple she consumed was not consumed somewhere other than at home? Would pineapple served at the White's (and I am not saying it was, just asking questions) be different than pineapple served at the house down the street?

And could the coroner be wrong, although I don't think he is wrong in that he says it could be a vegetable or fruit, which may be pineapple?

Couldn't there be a, then again, it may be banana, or there again, it may be celery? Because Steve Thomas says it is pineapple, do we have to believe that it is? Is there somewhere else I should be looking for these answers?

Zoey, I understand what you are asking and I don't know the answer to it. What I want to know from you is why do you insist on believing that the pineapple in the bowl is not the pineapple JB ate? What are the odds that it is not the same? There's a bowl of pineapple sitting out in her house and she ate pineapple shortly before she died.
It was determined that it was definately pineapple in JBs intestines. It wasn't just a guess. So again, I have to ask...why do you have such a hard time believing JB ate pineapple out of that bowl?

[Zoey]

Zoey, I understand what you are asking and I don't know the answer to it. What I want to know from you is why do you insist on believing that the pineapple in the bowl is not the pineapple JB ate? What are the odds that it is not the same? There's a bowl of pineapple sitting out in her house and she ate pineapple shortly before she died.
It was determined that it was definately pineapple in JBs intestines. It wasn't just a guess. So again, I have to ask...why do you have such a hard time believing JB ate pineapple out of that bowl?


I guess the reason I have such a hard time believing she ate the pineapple out of that bowl is because:

A. It looks nothing like pineapple to me, but that is just how I am looking at the picture. I showed the picture around my work, and asked people to tell me what was in that bowl. Not one person said it was pineapple. All told me I was mistaken about its contents when I said it was pineapple. I got two people saying it was fruit salad, one person said it looked like apple crisp, one person said it looked like bananas with cream and powdered sugar.

B. There are none of her fingerprints on anything around that bowl, as in, the bowl itself or the spoon.

C. The Ramseys claim they did not have pineapple, they did not feed her pineapple and they don't know how the bowl got there. I believe them.

I guess that is why I have such a hard time believing it is the source of the pineapple that JB had. I am not, on the other hand, so adamant about this that I would not be willing to change my mind if I had out and out proof. I can be persuaded!

[thewhitewitch1]

I guess the reason I have such a hard time believing she ate the pineapple out of that bowl is because:

A. It looks nothing like pineapple to me, but that is just how I am looking at the picture. I showed the picture around my work, and asked people to tell me what was in that bowl. Not one person said it was pineapple. All told me I was mistaken about its contents when I said it was pineapple. I got two people saying it was fruit salad, one person said it looked like apple crisp, one person said it looked like bananas with cream and powdered sugar.

B. There are none of her fingerprints on anything around that bowl, as in, the bowl itself or the spoon.

C. The Ramseys claim they did not have pineapple, they did not feed her pineapple and they don't know how the bowl got there. I believe them.

I guess that is why I have such a hard time believing it is the source of the pineapple that JB had. I am not, on the other hand, so adamant about this that I would not be willing to change my mind if I had out and out proof. I can be persuaded!

I don't know how to pursuade you. It's common knowledge that it was, for a fact, pineapple in that bowl. I believe I read somewhere that they took the bowl of it in for evidence (please don't ask me to find it cuz I don't have a clue where I read it!). No one involved with the crime has claimed for it to be anything BUT pineapple. Not pineapple salad or mixed fruit....just pineapple. Even Lou Smit. It is what it is.
As someone said, JB could have eaten some with her fingers; hence no fingerprints.
It's up to you whether you want to believe the Ramseys or not. I don't. The way my mind works, if JB had eaten pineapple 1 1/2 - 2 hours before her death, the pineapple had to have come from that bowl. That means that bowl would have had to have been in the house already (pineapple too). We already know the bowl belongs to the Ramseys. Spoon too. It would be ludacris (sp) to assume that an intruder served up a bowl of pineapple. You have to admit, that's really a stretch.
If JB had gotten up to eat something in the night and ran into an intruder, all that happened afterwards still doesn't fit. The intruder would have had his "game plan" in mind so running into her wouldn't have been random. He would have also had to have gone to her room and either taken the white blanket off of her bed and partially remade it, or found the blanket in the dryer. Both seem highly implausable.
To have one or both of the parents getting up at night and feeding her, or catching her feeding herself seems entirely more likely. Also, only they would know if the blanket was in the dryer...or even which dryer it was in. They would be the ones most likely to partially remake the bed if they had pulled the blanket off of it; though I don't believe the blanket was on the bed that night because I can't think of any reason why they would remake the bed.
Anyway, I could go on and on but I won't. (I know you're grateful :) )
Point being...it was pineapple in that bowl. Just pineapple.

[Tober]

Is each pineapple unique in its structure or something?

Pineapples Have Fingerprints, Too: www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2005/051003.htm

[Tober]

How can someone tell that the pineapple she consumed was not consumed somewhere other than at home?

Based on its position in her digestive tract. The pineapple was in the proximal portion of her small intestine. We can infer that the green fecal matter that was in her large intestine was the crab she ate at the White's.

[Zoey]

I don't know how to pursuade you. It's common knowledge that it was, for a fact, pineapple in that bowl. I believe I read somewhere that they took the bowl of it in for evidence (please don't ask me to find it cuz I don't have a clue where I read it!). No one involved with the crime has claimed for it to be anything BUT pineapple. Not pineapple salad or mixed fruit....just pineapple. Even Lou Smit. It is what it is.
As someone said, JB could have eaten some with her fingers; hence no fingerprints.
It's up to you whether you want to believe the Ramseys or not. I don't. The way my mind works, if JB had eaten pineapple 1 1/2 - 2 hours before her death, the pineapple had to have come from that bowl. That means that bowl would have had to have been in the house already (pineapple too). We already know the bowl belongs to the Ramseys. Spoon too. It would be ludacris (sp) to assume that an intruder served up a bowl of pineapple. You have to admit, that's really a stretch.
If JB had gotten up to eat something in the night and ran into an intruder, all that happened afterwards still doesn't fit. The intruder would have had his "game plan" in mind so running into her wouldn't have been random. He would have also had to have gone to her room and either taken the white blanket off of her bed and partially remade it, or found the blanket in the dryer. Both seem highly implausable.
To have one or both of the parents getting up at night and feeding her, or catching her feeding herself seems entirely more likely. Also, only they would know if the blanket was in the dryer...or even which dryer it was in. They would be the ones most likely to partially remake the bed if they had pulled the blanket off of it; though I don't believe the blanket was on the bed that night because I can't think of any reason why they would remake the bed.
Anyway, I could go on and on but I won't. (I know you're grateful :) )
Point being...it was pineapple in that bowl. Just pineapple.

Thank you for your feedback on this. I really do appreciate when other posters, whether they be IDI, RDI or fencesitters, takes the time to explain something in a way that helps another person without being condescending or rude.

I will have to do a lot more research on this matter, since it is not a test I can perform on my own children or relatives!!

[Zoey]

Pineapples Have Fingerprints, Too: www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2005/051003.htm


Thank you for this interesting article, although I would say that in 1996, this procedure was not used, as the gentlemen involved did not reveal their findings until 2004.

[Tober]

Thank you for this interesting article, although I would say that in 1996, this procedure was not used, as the gentlemen involved did not reveal their findings until 2004.

However, they've been doing isozyme analysis on pineapple since many years prior to the late 1990s.

[shill]

I saw a Foresnic Files case once where a man turned up the A/C in his apartment after killing his wife for just the same purpose.
Crazy idea, I'm sure but just thought I would throw it out there.

I heard they were keeping James Brown in an A/C living room until they figure out how to bury him.

[shill]

Also, when John says he checked the walk-in fridge, how does that indicate an intruder? I was just pointing out how odd it seemed for him to check there and then came up with my wild idea of him (and Patsy) stashing her body there.

How odd to check for her anywhere, even her bed. Unless you're thinking that it might be possible it's a practical joke, or you're just at such a loss that you are hoping for something, anything to find her.

[shill]

You most certainly can make one glass of iced tea. This is the problem with the intruder theory. It requires a logic-defying stretch on every point.

Burke tried to make a glass of tea. How is this a logic-defying stretch for an IDI theory?

[shill]

You are very right. I don't have all of the answers. I hope I never imply that I do. I believe the Ramseys are involved because that is where the evidence leads me and based on that evidence, I see nothing that indicates a pedophile was involved. A jab in the vagina with a paintbrush is not a sexual act, IMO. I find it hard to believe that a pedophile would "break into" a home with all of the occupants in it just to sexually molest a child. There are easier ways to get at your intended victim. If you want to kidnap her and then act out your fantasies, you do it. You don't play garrote games with her right there and take the risk of being caught. You don't write a ransom note and leave the body there. You don't feed the child pineapple (or anything) and you don't go looking around in the house for items to use in your crime - you bring them with you. If you want to strangle the child (for sex games or otherwise), you don't need to construct a "garrote". A lot of other items would have done just as well (such as the scarf). You wouldn't put a suitcase under a window to climb up when there was a chair right there in front of the trainroom door. You wouldn't do a lot of things this intruder did. Most of it makes no sense regarding the intruder theory and that is how I base my opinion that the Ramseys are involved.
BTW...I think the glass with the tea bag is irrelevant to this crime. It could have been put there at any time by anyone and the teabag could just have been dropped in it after tea was made in another cup. We all know the Ramseys never qualified for the "Good Housekeeping award".

Your description of an IDI theory sounds like Lou Smit's and I don't agree with hardly anything you state of how and why an IDI did it.
And to someone, there is a difference between just killing someone's daughter, and taking her virginity before killing her.

[shill]

Zoey, I understand what you are asking and I don't know the answer to it. What I want to know from you is why do you insist on believing that the pineapple in the bowl is not the pineapple JB ate? What are the odds that it is not the same? There's a bowl of pineapple sitting out in her house and she ate pineapple shortly before she died.
It was determined that it was definately pineapple in JBs intestines. It wasn't just a guess. So again, I have to ask...why do you have such a hard time believing JB ate pineapple out of that bowl?

Zoey,
You got to let this one go. It is highly likely that they are the same pineapple.

If she had eaten pineapple at the party, that would certainly make the Ramseys guilty because that would have put her time of death close to the time they got home.

[Tober]

Can the inference be made that the pineapple belonged to the Ramseys and wasn't brought into their home by any of their guests of Dec. 23? I submit that it can based on the following: 1) None of their Dec. 23 guests have come forward saying they brought in the pineapple; 2) During interrogation while being questioned about the pineapple, neither John nor Patsy mention that the pineapple could be leftover from Dec. 23. John and Patsy really only give us two options for it: JonBenet ate it at the White's or a stranger (intruder) gave it to her (neither of which is true); 3) It's the same type of pineapple Patsy would buy at Safeway; 4) The fingerprint evidence on the bowl containing the pineapple shows that it was only handled by Burke and Patsy. That doesn't necessarily mean they both handled it once the pineapple was in it. What it does mean though, is that one or both of them handled the bowl prior to the pineapple being placed into it, and one or both of them handled the bowl after the pineapple was placed into it.

[shill]

I would say another good question to ask is; for fresh packaged pineapple that they claim it is, how long of a shelf life does it have in the refrigerator if previously bought? If it was bought several weeks before, Patsy may have forgotten all about it.
I know the Hawaiians freeze it and eat it frozen.

IMO I still think it was served on the 23rd at the party. It was there at the party and where it came from is irrelevant.

I find things in my refrigerator that I don't remember buying, and it is smaller then most and never very full.

[bullmoose]

Can the inference be made that the pineapple belonged to the Ramseys and wasn't brought into their home by any of their guests of Dec. 23? I submit that it can based on the following: 1) None of their Dec. 23 guests have come forward saying they brought in the pineapple; 2) During interrogation while being questioned about the pineapple, neither John nor Patsy mention that the pineapple could be leftover from Dec. 23. John and Patsy really only give us two options for it: JonBenet ate it at the White's or a stranger (intruder) gave it to her (neither of which is true); 3) It's the same type of pineapple Patsy would buy at Safeway; 4) The fingerprint evidence on the bowl containing the pineapple shows that it was only handled by Burke and Patsy. That doesn't necessarily mean they both handled it once the pineapple was in it. What it does mean though, is that one or both of them handled the bowl prior to the pineapple being placed into it, and one or both of them handled the bowl after the pineapple was placed into it. If the pineapple belonged to the Ramseys; where are the itemized, dated receipts from Safeway, showing when Patsy purchased the pineapple. Surely,if Steve Thomas could go to such lengths to try to link Patsy to the duct tape and cord; which he couldn't do, then he should surely have been able to trace the route that the pineapple took to get into the house and Jonbenet, with itemized receipts and charge records from Safeway. But up until now I haven't heard of this happening. The basis of your connecting Patsy to the pineapple is your unsupported assumption that nobody else admitted to it, and neither Ramsey admitted to it, and it was the same kind as Patsy would buy at Safeway. I see no support for your pyramid of assumptions; I simply do not understand how you can state that Burke or Patsy handled the bowl before the pineapple was in it and that Burke or Patsy handled it after the pineapple was in it. All that I see from the fingerprints is that at some point after it was last washed Patsy's and Burke's print/s got on it, perhaps when being dried and put away.

[andU]

You are very right. I don't have all of the answers. I hope I never imply that I do. I believe the Ramseys are involved because that is where the evidence leads me and based on that evidence, I see nothing that indicates a pedophile was involved. A jab in the vagina with a paintbrush is not a sexual act, IMO. I find it hard to believe that a pedophile would "break into" a home with all of the occupants in it just to sexually molest a child. There are easier ways to get at your intended victim. If you want to kidnap her and then act out your fantasies, you do it. You don't play garrote games with her right there and take the risk of being caught. You don't write a ransom note and leave the body there. You don't feed the child pineapple (or anything) and you don't go looking around in the house for items to use in your crime - you bring them with you. If you want to strangle the child (for sex games or otherwise), you don't need to construct a "garrote". A lot of other items would have done just as well (such as the scarf). You wouldn't put a suitcase under a window to climb up when there was a chair right there in front of the trainroom door. You wouldn't do a lot of things this intruder did. Most of it makes no sense regarding the intruder theory and that is how I base my opinion that the Ramseys are involved.
BTW...I think the glass with the tea bag is irrelevant to this crime. It could have been put there at any time by anyone and the teabag could just have been dropped in it after tea was made in another cup. We all know the Ramseys never qualified for the "Good Housekeeping award".

Nor does it make sense for a parent to have gone through all of what you mentioned to kill their child. If they did it, it could have been simplified so much, and why would they point to themselves? Sorry, guess we will continue to agree to disagree....

[thewhitewitch1]

Nor does it make sense for a parent to have gone through all of what you mentioned to kill their child. If they did it, it could have been simplified so much, and why would they point to themselves? Sorry, guess we will continue to agree to disagree....


Zoey, what did they "go through" to kill her? I think the actual killing was an accident (head blow) and the rest was staged, though she may have been barely alive at the time of the strangling. I suspect the garrote was not the original instument used to strangle her.
The staging was most certainly necessary. How simplified would you have it be? I don't think they intended for it to point to themselves but if they couldn't use their own items for the staging, what else were they to use? The situation called for action right then and there. The RN was written to point away from them, not at them. There was only so much they could do since the murder happened in their own home with them there. I think they did indeed go overboard with the staging but that doesn't make them any less suspect to me. There are just as many questions about why an intruder did this or that as there are for the Ramseys.

[andU]

WhiteWitch, I think your last response was intended to me. If the parents killed her accidently, why on earth would they stage a murder scene? Why wouldn't they call 911 and get help? I don't think the kind of blow to her head was accidental, either. I just think that you and I have total different views of the same crime and I'm ok with that. You certainly have the right to what you believe took place, just as I do. Until proof is found to convince me otherwise, I believe an intruder did it and that the intruder could have been someone known to the family.

[thewhitewitch1]

WhiteWitch, I think your last response was intended to me. If the parents killed her accidently, why on earth would they stage a murder scene? Why wouldn't they call 911 and get help? I don't think the kind of blow to her head was accidental, either. I just think that you and I have total different views of the same crime and I'm ok with that. You certainly have the right to what you believe took place, just as I do. Until proof is found to convince me otherwise, I believe an intruder did it and that the intruder could have been someone known to the family.


Sorry, AndU...it was intended for you. Myself and others have also explained possible reasons why they didn't call 911 for help if the head blow was an accident so I won't go into that again. I'm ok with your views too. Probably neither of us will ever know the truth. :(

[andU]

We have HOPE, though, of it being resolved.

[Zoey]

I would say another good question to ask is; for fresh packaged pineapple that they claim it is, how long of a shelf life does it have in the refrigerator if previously bought? If it was bought several weeks before, Patsy may have forgotten all about it.
I know the Hawaiians freeze it and eat it frozen.

IMO I still think it was served on the 23rd at the party. It was there at the party and where it came from is irrelevant.

I find things in my refrigerator that I don't remember buying, and it is smaller then most and never very full.


Shill:

To perhaps answer your question about shelf life of fresh pineapple:


Storage:
Whole fresh pineapple can be stored at room temperature for 1 or 2 days but is very perishable so should be consumed as soon as possible. It can be placed in a perforated plastic bag and stored in the refrigerator for 4 to 5 days. It can be peeled and then sliced or cubed and stored in an airtight container in the refrigerator for 2 or 3 days. Sliced or cubed pineapple can be frozen if stored in an airtight, freezer bag in its own juice. When frozen, it has a tendency to loose some of its flavor.

[sweetcharlotte]

I know you are basing your post on credible information but I know from personal experience that fresh pineapple will last much longer in the refrig if kept in an airtight container. I prepared a fresh pineapple for a Christmas party on the 22nd. It was still good on the 31st. By the 31st there was lots of juice in the bottom of the container, but the pineapple was still edible.

[Zoey]

I know you are basing your post on credible information but I know from personal experience that fresh pineapple will last much longer in the refrig if kept in an airtight container. I prepared a fresh pineapple for a Christmas party on the 22nd. It was still good on the 31st. By the 31st there was lots of juice in the bottom of the container, but the pineapple was still edible.


I was thinking the same thing after I posted that!! I get fresh pineapple on a regular basis and it seemed to me we had it a lot longer than this site stated.

[Tober]

And there is nothing to prove he made and drank the tea sometime after they arrived home.

How can we infer that Burke made the tea, drank it, and left the glass there sometime after they arrived home but before he went to bed? 1) Patsy said she cleaned the table off after breakfast; 2) Patsy said they didn't eat lunch that day because they had a big breakfast and were going to the White's around 4 or 5 o'clock; 3) The victim advocates didn't place the tea bag there; 4) None of the Ramsey's guests of Dec. 26 have come forward saying they placed the tea bag there; 5) Burke liked tea; 6) The glass with the tea bag was at the seat position of the table where Burke normally sat; 7) Only Burke's fingerprints were on the glass with the tea bag; 8) The glass with the tea bag was in proximity to a bowl of pineapple that contained only Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints; 9) JonBenet ate some of the pineapple from the bowl sometime after they arrived home; 10) Both the bowl which contained only Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints and the glass which contained only Burke's fingerprints were left out after JonBenet consumed the pineapple; 11) The setting is typical of a before-bedtime children's snack; 12) Burke didn't have the tea in the morning because he was awoken and then taken to the White's; 13) It can be inferred that Burke made the tea and drank it after they arrived home either before, during, or after working on his model. It can be inferred that after Burke drank the tea he left the glass there and sometime after that he went to bed.

[nuisanceposter]

All a nine year old boy would need to make a glass of tea is water and a tea bag. I would hardly expect a nine year old boy to know about exactly how it's done, with boiling water and all, especially when his preference was for sweet iced tea Southern-style, and not a cup of hot, fresh-brewed tea.

No one even knows if that glass was the receptacle used to drink the tea or not. It's quite possible that the tea bag was in that glass as a place to drop a used tea bag and nothing more.

[Tober]

It's quite possible that the tea bag was in that glass as a place to drop a used tea bag and nothing more.

The victim advocates didn't place the tea bag there. None of the Ramsey's guests of Dec. 26 have come forward saying they placed the tea bag there. No police officers or investigators have come forward saying they placed the tea bag there.

[nuisanceposter]

The victim advocates didn't place the tea bag there. None of the Ramsey's guests of Dec. 26 have come forward saying they placed the tea bag there. No police officers or investigators have come forward saying they placed the tea bag there.

I was thinking maybe Patsy made herself a cup of tea while she composed and wrote the ransom note. I don't dispute the idea that no one other than a Ramsey used that tea bag at all...I'm just not convinced it was Burke and Burke alone, even though I've also read that the glass was placed at his usual spot at the table. Maybe he drank a glass of iced tea, leaving the glass sitting there because the R children were not required to pick up after themselves, and then someone else made a cup of hot tea and just dropped the spent bag in that glass. MOO.

[Tober]

I don't dispute the idea that no one other than a Ramsey used that tea bag at all...I'm just not convinced it was Burke and Burke alone, even though I've also read that the glass was placed at his usual spot at the table.

Oh, I agree. I see no indication that anyone other than a Ramsey placed the glass, tea bag, and bowl of pineapple there.

[packer48]

Don't you think the experts could have determined what HAD been in the glass?

With tea wouldn't there be some kink of residue left in the glass?

We're just not getting all the facts here.

I would think there would be alot more out there with the anylisis of the glass, tea bag, spoon, bowl and pineapple.

If there is I haven't heard or read about it.

packer

[Louisadelmar]

And if it was sweet tea testing would have indicated sugar as well.

[shill]

How can we infer that Burke made the tea, drank it, and left the glass there sometime after they arrived home but before he went to bed? 1) Patsy said she cleaned the table off after breakfast; 2) Patsy said they didn't eat lunch that day because they had a big breakfast and were going to the White's around 4 or 5 o'clock; 3) The victim advocates didn't place the tea bag there; 4) None of the Ramsey's guests of Dec. 26 have come forward saying they placed the tea bag there; 5) Burke liked tea; 6) The glass with the tea bag was at the seat position of the table where Burke normally sat; 7) Only Burke's fingerprints were on the glass with the tea bag; 8) The glass with the tea bag was in proximity to a bowl of pineapple that contained only Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints; 9) JonBenet ate some of the pineapple from the bowl sometime after they arrived home; 10) Both the bowl which contained only Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints and the glass which contained only Burke's fingerprints were left out after JonBenet consumed the pineapple; 11) The setting is typical of a before-bedtime children's snack; 12) Burke didn't have the tea in the morning because he was awoken and then taken to the White's; 13) It can be inferred that Burke made the tea and drank it after they arrived home either before, during, or after working on his model. It can be inferred that after Burke drank the tea he left the glass there and sometime after that he went to bed.
Finally! Something I can agree on with you (exept for the -before bed- part).

They should also have saliva on the glass, which should be Burkes.
It would have been a huge mistake for an intruder to have drunk from that glass, even if he was wearing gloves to prevent fingerprints, because LE would obviously have a great DNA sample from him.

But what parent would knowingly allow their child to drink a caffeine beverage before bedtime?
I argue that Burke did this with out P or J knowing, so most likely after P and J were in bed. And Burke was most likely the one to get the bowl of pineapple
out after they went to bed, and that is why P and J never saw it.

[packer48]

Finally! Something I can agree on with you (exept for the -before bed- part).

They should also have saliva on the glass, which should be Burkes.
It would have been a huge mistake for an intruder to have drunk from that glass, even if he was wearing gloves to prevent fingerprints, because LE would obviously have a great DNA sample from him.

But what parent would knowingly allow their child to drink a caffeine beverage before bedtime?
I argue that Burke did this with out P or J knowing, so most likely after P and J were in bed. And Burke was most likely the one to get the bowl of pineapple
out after they went to bed, and that is why P and J never saw it.

Absolutly,

Kids can be VERY quit when they are sneaking around in the night.

For Patsy to say that she would have heard Burke slamming cupboards and such is absurd.

My kids are grown now and they tell me I didn't have a clue about what they did in the night. Egg on my face!!!!!!!

We laught about it now!

packer

[bullmoose]

Can we really infer anything about the teabag? In my opinion, no inference should be made about the teabag unless and until it is clearly established exactly what kind of teabag it was; how anyone can infer that it was Burke's teabag without knowing whether it was the kind of tea he custumarily drank is very strange to me. Unless that inference is backed up by the inferer's source of such inside knowledge as is claimed or inferred to; then the inference is merely speculative sophistry on a grand scale. JMHO, of course:biggrin:

[packer48]

Can we really infer anything about the teabag? In my opinion, no inference should be made about the teabag unless and until it is clearly established exactly what kind of teabag it was; how anyone can infer that it was Burke's teabag without knowing whether it was the kind of tea he custumarily drank is very strange to me. Unless that inference is backed up by the inferer's source of such inside knowledge as is claimed or inferred to; then the inference is merely speculative sophistry on a grand scale. JMHO, of course:biggrin:

Point well taken, only the LE and the forensic people are privy to that info it seems.

Were looking for details that are not just out there. Too bad huh!

I swear if some of the people who post here were able to examine the crime scene it would have been solved by now!

JMHO

packer

[bullmoose]

In truth, I do not know if the case would be solved even if the BPD had accepted the offered help of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies with far more experience at murder investigations. This case has so much about it that is baffling to me. I started off thinking that the Ramseys must have been responsible, based on the statistical likelihood of a family member having committed it. As I have studied the case over the years I have become an IDI, I really believe the Ramseys completely uninvolved past being Jonbenet's parents. So much of the evidence was, in my opinion, staged to throw suspician on John and Patsy Ramsey; nothing seems to fit as any 'normal crime' would, into one category or another. IMO, whoever did this is very clever, as well as evil; I think the BPD were in out of their depth, but I don't know if anyone else would have been able to make sense of it. There is that TV show--48 that has as its premise that a murder needs to be solved in that first 48 hours or the chances of it ever being solved drops off radically. This strange case wasn't helped by the BPD's tunnelvision at the outset, but I don't know if it mattered. JMO:shrug:

[packer48]

In truth, I do not know if the case would be solved even if the BPD had accepted the offered help of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies with far more experience at murder investigations. This case has so much about it that is baffling to me. I started off thinking that the Ramseys must have been responsible, based on the statistical likelihood of a family member having committed it. As I have studied the case over the years I have become an IDI, I really believe the Ramseys completely uninvolved past being Jonbenet's parents. So much of the evidence was, in my opinion, staged to throw suspician on John and Patsy Ramsey; nothing seems to fit as any 'normal crime' would, into one category or another. IMO, whoever did this is very clever, as well as evil; I think the BPD were in out of their depth, but I don't know if anyone else would have been able to make sense of it. There is that TV show--48 that has as its premise that a murder needs to be solved in that first 48 hours or the chances of it ever being solved drops off radically. This strange case wasn't helped by the BPD's tunnelvision at the outset, but I don't know if it mattered. JMO:shrug:


Well, IF an intruder did it then I have to believe that it was someone who new the family and were out for some kind of revenge.

If it was random act intruder don't you think that we would have seen more of the same elsewhere?

For goodness sakes, he got totally away with it.......what a rush......you know darn well the perp is going to want to do it again.

Just like the BTK killer.

As far as I know there has not been anymore such similar crimes reported.

JMHO

packer

[thewhitewitch1]

In truth, I do not know if the case would be solved even if the BPD had accepted the offered help of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies with far more experience at murder investigations. This case has so much about it that is baffling to me. I started off thinking that the Ramseys must have been responsible, based on the statistical likelihood of a family member having committed it. As I have studied the case over the years I have become an IDI, I really believe the Ramseys completely uninvolved past being Jonbenet's parents. So much of the evidence was, in my opinion, staged to throw suspician on John and Patsy Ramsey; nothing seems to fit as any 'normal crime' would, into one category or another. IMO, whoever did this is very clever, as well as evil; I think the BPD were in out of their depth, but I don't know if anyone else would have been able to make sense of it. There is that TV show--48 that has as its premise that a murder needs to be solved in that first 48 hours or the chances of it ever being solved drops off radically. This strange case wasn't helped by the BPD's tunnelvision at the outset, but I don't know if it mattered. JMO:shrug:

The evidence that you see as staged to make it look like John and Patsy did it may be the only part of the murder that wasn't staged. IMO
What you view as staged evidence, I see as absolute evidence of their involvement.
I also think the BPDs tunnelvision was necessary and the Ramseys did nothing to help expand that tunnelvision. All they had to do was co-operate and the case would have moved on....IF they were innocent. I blame the Ramseys as much as the BPD for letting that 48 hour critical time frame pass by.

[Zoey]

Well, IF an intruder did it then I have to believe that it was someone who new the family and were out for some kind of revenge.

If it was random act intruder don't you think that we would have seen more of the same elsewhere?

For goodness sakes, he got totally away with it.......what a rush......you know darn well the perp is going to want to do it again.

Just like the BTK killer.

As far as I know there has not been anymore such similar crimes reported.

JMHO

packer

That is why, IMO, this was a hate crime as such against John Ramsey himself. I believe someone did this to his daughter because they were jealous of John's wealth, his companies, his family, his home and everything else that had to do with JR.

Will there by another crime like this? I don't think so, because John doesn't have another little 6 year old daughter, unless they go after his older kids or grandkids as their next target. I am sure the hatred for John has not subsided in any way.

[KingCoyote]

JR reports a somewhat similar subsequent reported crime as far as the break in and attempted molestation in DOI Paperback - P 390.

KingCoyote

[elvislives]

Well, IF an intruder did it then I have to believe that it was someone who new the family and were out for some kind of revenge.

If it was random act intruder don't you think that we would have seen more of the same elsewhere?

For goodness sakes, he got totally away with it.......what a rush......you know darn well the perp is going to want to do it again.

Just like the BTK killer.

As far as I know there has not been anymore such similar crimes reported.

JMHO

packer


Actually there was a similar crime in the area. I can't remember all the details but I think it was about 6 months after the JBR murder, or maybe it was 6 months before. A woman was home with her young daughter...her husband was out of town and she neglected to turn on the alarm. Apparently she was a very light sleeper and heard "whispering" in her daughter's room. Turns out a man dressed in all black and a ski mask had broken into the home and was molesting her daughter in her bed with the mother in the next room. The mother interrupted the crime and the guy ran out and was never caught. The father of this girl has complained publicly that there was never any attempt by the BPD (in his opinion) to link the crimes.

[shill]

Well, IF an intruder did it then I have to believe that it was someone who new the family and were out for some kind of revenge.

If it was random act intruder don't you think that we would have seen more of the same elsewhere?

For goodness sakes, he got totally away with it.......what a rush......you know darn well the perp is going to want to do it again.

Just like the BTK killer.

As far as I know there has not been anymore such similar crimes reported.

JMHO

packer

There doesn't appear to be another case of this kind in the USA, but the world is a big place. The perp could be committing this sort of crime in another country, like Thailand, were little girls are sold for perverted pleasures.

[elvislives]

The evidence that you see as staged to make it look like John and Patsy did it may be the only part of the murder that wasn't staged. IMO
What you view as staged evidence, I see as absolute evidence of their involvement.
I also think the BPDs tunnelvision was necessary and the Ramseys did nothing to help expand that tunnelvision. All they had to do was co-operate and the case would have moved on....IF they were innocent. I blame the Ramseys as much as the BPD for letting that 48 hour critical time frame pass by.


I disagree. The Rs were either the victims of this crime or the perpetrators. It is not their responsibility to ensure that solving the murder gets off on the right foot. I agree they were lame to not cooperate, but that should not have stopped the BPD from running a solid investigation. It was blundered from the get-go, starting off with their failure to secure the crime scene. Who knows how much evidence may have been destroyed?

[thewhitewitch1]

I disagree. The Rs were either the victims of this crime or the perpetrators. It is not their responsibility to ensure that solving the murder gets off on the right foot. I agree they were lame to not cooperate, but that should not have stopped the BPD from running a solid investigation. It was blundered from the get-go, starting off with their failure to secure the crime scene. Who knows how much evidence may have been destroyed?


True. The Ramseys were treated "special". When you have big bucks, that happens.
The Ramseys did their fair share of destroying the crime scene whether intentional or not.

[shill]

True. The Ramseys were treated "special". When you have big bucks, that happens.
The Ramseys did their fair share of destroying the crime scene whether intentional or not.
Thank goodness Fleet White was there to help them.

[thewhitewitch1]

Thank goodness Fleet White was there to help them.


Thank goodness John and Barbara Fernie, and the Rev. were there to help them too. The more the merrier.
Nothing like having a bunch of people over after your daughter has been "kidnapped" to add to the confusion and mess up the crime scene; especially when you've been repeatedly warned not to tell anyone or your child will be beheaded. Whatever FW did, just remember....he was asked to be there. He did not come there on his own to "tamper with the crime scene."

[elvislives]

Zoey, what did they "go through" to kill her? I think the actual killing was an accident (head blow) and the rest was staged, though she may have been barely alive at the time of the strangling. .

I'll mention this one more time for good measure, then I'll stop beating the dead horse. But the MAJOR flaw with this theory is the time line. Even if you go with the far out professionals who say that it could have been as long as 20 minutes to 1 hour between injuries (and I'll refresh your memory that these statements were made BEFORE the complete autopsy had been released)..most MEs now that the full autopsy is available (actually EVERY ME and MD I have ever heard speak on this) believe the head wound and strangulation occurred very close together (either simultaneously or within a few minutes of each other).

But for kicks, lets just say it was 30 minutes. She gets bashed on the head and within 30 minutes her parents are strangling her to stage a murder??? Why not at least wait until she is dead from the head wound if they were convinced it was fatal??

And she could not have been "barely alive" at the time of the strangulation because she had petechial hemorhaging in her lungs.

So if the parents did it, that theory just does not work.

[elvislives]

True. The Ramseys were treated "special". When you have big bucks, that happens.
The Ramseys did their fair share of destroying the crime scene whether intentional or not.

And if they're guilty, the BPD ALLOWED the perpetrators to tamper with the crime scene, thus completely compromising the investigation to the point where it will probably never be solved. They should have followed police protocol regardless of how much money the Ramseys had.

[sweetcharlotte]

<snip>

They should have followed police protocol regardless of how much money the Ramseys had.

Exactly. Plus they should have accepted help from the FBI rather than keeping them down at BPD headquarters until after JB was found.

Think about it - Linda Arndt was left in that house alone for 2 1/2 hours which was absolutely ridiculous.

[elvislives]

You are very right. I don't have all of the answers. I hope I never imply that I do. I believe the Ramseys are involved because that is where the evidence leads me and based on that evidence, I see nothing that indicates a pedophile was involved. A jab in the vagina with a paintbrush is not a sexual act, IMO. I find it hard to believe that a pedophile would "break into" a home with all of the occupants in it just to sexually molest a child. .

There was very similar crime in the Ramsey neighborhood. I saw the father of the victim interviewed on some crime show. His wife and daughter were home alone (he was traveling for business) and someone broke into the house at night to molest the daughter. The mother basically caught him in the act and he fled. The victims father is angry at the BPD because he felt they didn't do too much to solve the crime. He was also pissed because he thought after the Ramsey murder the BPD should have re-interviewed his daughter to see if the crimes were related.

One thing that always puzzles me about kids and crime...why didn't this girl scream, knowing that her mother was in the next room? Same with Elizabeth Smart...why would she allow some intruder to take her out of the house without screaming bloody murder? Ditto for the kidnapped kid in Missouri...why not call out for help. I just don't understand that behaviour, but for some reason it happens all the time.

[KingCoyote]

Just a few more things about the similar subsequent crime that JR reports in DOI P390;

1. The perp waited for hours in the house until the family went to bed and went to sleep.

2. The perp knew the layout of the house well.

3. The police reported no sign of forced entry just as they had reported in JonBenet's case.

4. The young girl and JB both performed publicly in Boulder in the fall of 96 and both attended the same dance school.

Crime occurred in Sept. 1997. Girl attacked at 3 AM. Family had come home at 11 and set alarm. Perp allegedly began to molest girl, covered her mouth and threatened to knock her out if she screamed. Mother interrupted crime, sprayed perp with mace. Perp exited through French doors onto a lower roof and escaped. All within 2 miles of Ramsey house.

KingCoyote

[sweetcharlotte]

I realize you weren't posting to me but Elizabeth Smart and a least one of the MO boys were taken a gunpoint. Would you scream?

[elvislives]

Just a few more things about the similar subsequent crime that JR reports in DOI P390;

1. The perp waited for hours in the house until the family went to bed and went to sleep.

2. The perp knew the layout of the house well.

3. The police reported no sign of forced entry just as they had reported in JonBenet's case.

4. The young girl and JB both performed publicly in Boulder in the fall of 96 and both attended the same dance school.

Crime occurred in Sept. 1997. Girl attacked at 3 AM. Family had come home at 11 and set alarm. Perp allegedly began to molest girl, covered her mouth and threatened to knock her out if she screamed. Mother interrupted crime, sprayed perp with mace. Perp exited through French doors onto a lower roof and escaped. All within 2 miles of Ramsey house.

KingCoyote

I forgot about that detail that this girl and JB were in the same dance school. Where did you find info on this?
I only heard about it when I saw the victims father on some crime show (recently) complaining about the BPD. He, the father, seems to think that his daughters molestation and the murder of JB are related. He had a bunch of reasons for believing this...including the dance class association. Unfortunately I can't google him because he did not want the family last name publized since his daughter was a minor and was a victim of sexual assault.

[KingCoyote]

While I was posting the above characteristics of the similar subsequent crime I thought about the idea of a copycat crime. Lets face it, JMK may have been just an attention seeker. What is there to have stopped some true pedophile/kidnapper/murder from thinking: I don't want to get caught but if I copy the most talked about crime in recent history and do get caught, even though I didn't do the Ramsey crime, I will definitely be famous. There are nuts everywhere!

Just a few thoughts and opinions.

KingCoyote

[shill]

I forgot about that detail that this girl and JB were in the same dance school. Where did you find info on this?
I only heard about it when I saw the victims father on some crime show (recently) complaining about the BPD. He, the father, seems to think that his daughters molestation and the murder of JB are related. He had a bunch of reasons for believing this...including the dance class association. Unfortunately I can't google him because he did not want the family last name publized since his daughter was a minor and was a victim of sexual assault.

I think the BPD ruled out John Ramsey being the perp of this new crime so they didn't pursue it.:patriot:

[KingCoyote]

Elvislives;

I cited the source as DOI P. 390....paperback...

KC

[elvislives]

I realize you weren't posting to me but Elizabeth Smart and a least one of the MO boys were taken a gunpoint. Would you scream?

I would. However, I'm an adult and a true crime buff, so I am well aware of the danger of being taken to a "secondary crime scene". I would rather be shot in my house or in a parking lot etc than be taken away by some predator.
But again, kids are naive and probably feel they need to do whatever the perp asks just to survive.
Also though, JR mentioned that JB would scream bloody murder if some intruder showed up in her room. I'm sure he thinks that, but he may be wrong based on the reaction of other kids in similar circumstances.

[sweetcharlotte]

I agree with everything you said.

[Zoey]

Actually there was a similar crime in the area. I can't remember all the details but I think it was about 6 months after the JBR murder, or maybe it was 6 months before. A woman was home with her young daughter...her husband was out of town and she neglected to turn on the alarm. Apparently she was a very light sleeper and heard "whispering" in her daughter's room. Turns out a man dressed in all black and a ski mask had broken into the home and was molesting her daughter in her bed with the mother in the next room. The mother interrupted the crime and the guy ran out and was never caught. The father of this girl has complained publicly that there was never any attempt by the BPD (in his opinion) to link the crimes.

That was "Amy", the little girl that went to the same dance studio as JB. I believe she was 12 years old at the time. Her father was furious that the BPD investigated this crime the same way they investigated the Ramsey case.

This link has some of the story.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

[sweetcharlotte]

<snip>

Also though, JR mentioned that JB would scream bloody murder if some intruder showed up in her room. I'm sure he thinks that, but he may be wrong based on the reaction of other kids in similar circumstances.

I'm back-tracking just a little. Was it John or Patsy's mother than said JB would scream?