Anatomy of a Cold Case - CourtTV

[Athena]

I believe this aired in August 2006 but is being shown again tonight:

Tonight, 11pm Eastern Time, 10pm Central
Court TV

The crime that has captivated a nation for nearly a decade is once again in the headlines now that Patsy Ramsey, mother of the doomed child beauty queen JonBenet, has passed away. Court TV takes a closer look at the case in this hour-long special that includes an exclusive interview with a Grand Juror on the case, as well as other key players. We delve into the investigation in an effort to understand why the death of JonBenet, who was found murdered ten years ago this December (2006), has remained unsolved. An in-depth examination of the twists and turns of one of America's most baffling mysteries, this special takes a closer look at the evidence, the mistakes that were made and the media circus that has surrounded the case since JonBenet’s tiny body was discovered in the basement of her home in Colorado.

[concernedperson]

JMO, this is a cold case by design.

[thewhitewitch1]

Thanks for the heads-up, Athena!

[createthis]

Thanks for the post Athena, but I can't find it on. Is it possible the time is wrong? It's 10PM Central here and it's not on. Oh well, thanks anyway.

[KingCoyote]

Did anyone get a screen capture of the sleeve of JBR's shirt when the show first talked about DNA? My eyes may be playing tricks on me but I swear I saw red stains on the sleeve/cuff portion where the loose knot on her wrist was or maybe the other cuff/sleeve? Could it have been blood or some substance the lab applied?

KingCoyote

[thewhitewitch1]

I didn't learn much new from the show except that the pineapple/bowl and glass w/teabag wasn't noticed until later in the photos. If they had been noticed right after the murder, it would have been interesting to see if any DNA showed up on the spoon, as the guy on the show said.

[KingCoyote]

The Coyote is fuming...almost rabid:

In the show Cold Case the announcer mentioned that there was one fiber from the ligature cord found in JBR's bed therefore she was bound and killed in the bed. That is insane.

That fiber could have come from anywhere. Did anyone of the producers ever hear of transferance? That fiber in JBR's bed proves one thing and one thing only: that there was a fiber from the ligature rope in JBR's bed.

By the announcer's faulty logic, that means that since trace evidence of the rope sack in JAR's room was on JBR and in the body bag, she must have been killed in JAR's room. It is almost as ludicrous as saying that since JBR had pineapple in her system and the pineapple bowl was in the breakfast room she must have been killed in the breakfast room.

The ligature rope has not been sourced. The movements of the killer have not been established. The rope could have come from inside of the house and was the last of the rope. There isn't anymore of the rope to which you would source the ligature. JBR could have been playing with it in her room while she was playing with her bead making kit or her potholder making kit. The killer who used the rope could have come back to JBR's room after the killing and left the trace evidence or could have been in her room with the rope in his/her hands prior to the killing. Who knows?

This is a perfect example of how someone takes one or two pieces of evidence and arrives at the conclusion of whodunnit? Please don't fall into this trap.

I also noted that the show stated that the DNA from the blood stain in the panties was male, caucasian. I am aware of recent developments that DNA can possibly be linked to race but I was not aware that it been absolutely established as to this DNA. Any confirming source for the DNA being conclusively caucasian?

If anyone is interested in the loooooooong posts that I have been entering, get ready for a another one. I'm not saying I have discovered the killer; I have not but I am seeing something that I have not heard of being discussed before and just doesn't make sense nor does it "jibe" with the normally assumed information of the case. I could be wrong. Lets just see. The new thread should be up possibly today, January 6th.

Thank you for your patience.

KC :flamemad:

[LindaA]

KC, I'm sorry I can't give you a source, but I have read many times that the DNA has been sourced to a Caucasian male. I believe it has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

As for the lone fiber from the rope being in JBR's bed, I think it makes sense to conclude that the rope was in her bed at some point. I asuppose it is too much to ask if fibers fromthe rope were found elsewhere in the house.

I look forward to your post.

[LindaA]

I was interested to see that this was directed by Schiller and that the use of a stun gun was presented as fact. Schiller seems to lean more heavily on the side of the Ramseys' innocence these days.

[nuisanceposter]

KC, I'm sorry I can't give you a source, but I have read many times that the DNA has been sourced to a Caucasian male. I believe it has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/THRKQKGPI9231URL7

Fox News Exclusive, Carol McKinley on the unsourced DNA in JonBenet's panties:

www.foxnews.com

Carol McKinley: One piece of information which has been seen as a major clue, but which is wrong, is that the DNA which was in JonBenet's underwear came from a caucasian male. Truth is, it was never, ever tested for race. Because there's not enough, and it's tested, it will be used up. All we know is, it belongs to a male, we don't know what ethnicity it is.


http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Is-This-a-DNA-Case

Karr Arrest Warrant. Additionally, the arrest warrant (p. 82) in the John Mark Karr case did not state that the DNA was "caucasian" - merely that it contained a male fraction. This suggests that for whatever reason, BDA has not yet tested the JBR DNA for race.

[nuisanceposter]

I was interested to see that this was directed by Schiller and that the use of a stun gun was presented as fact. Schiller seems to lean more heavily on the side of the Ramseys' innocence these days.

I'm looking for it, but there was a thread about this program at FFJ when it came first out where a poster emailed Schiller and asked him about the program, to which Schiller replied that Court Tv had taken the liberty of editing his show and what we saw was not what he had originally intended to be seen. It's my understanding that Court Tv is known to be pro-Ramsey because they are afraid of being sued.

[nuisanceposter]

If anyone is interested in the loooooooong posts that I have been entering, get ready for a another one. I'm not saying I have discovered the killer; I have not but I am seeing something that I have not heard of being discussed before and just doesn't make sense nor does it "jibe" with the normally assumed information of the case. I could be wrong. Lets just see. The new thread should be up possibly today, January 6th.

Thank you for your patience.

KC :flamemad:

I'm definitely interested in your long posts, and am more than willing to reply with posts just as long. I look forward to hearing what you want to discuss, especially if it hasn't been discussed before.

[nuisanceposter]

I'm looking for it, but there was a thread about this program at FFJ when it came first out where a poster emailed Schiller and asked him about the program, to which Schiller replied that Court Tv had taken the liberty of editing his show and what we saw was not what he had originally intended to be seen. It's my understanding that Court Tv is known to be pro-Ramsey because they are afraid of being sued.

I found it - Tricia Griffith herself emailed Schiller. Here are her emails and his reply.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7038

[Athena]

King... I just played the tape back re: the fiber from the cord in JBRs bed. It doesn't say she was killed in her bed but that only it was possible she may have been "tied' to the bed.

[Athena]

I found it - Tricia Griffith herself emailed Schiller. Here are her emails and his reply.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7038

IMO his reply was a political one and I would not hold my breath. He doesn't say what was said was not true just that the show had been edited -- that could just mean the time frame of the show as well. :shrug;

[Louisadelmar]

I found it - Tricia Griffith herself emailed Schiller. Here are her emails and his reply.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7038

I couldn't find where he said "what we saw was not what he had originally intended to be seen.."

[Athena]

http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/THRKQKGPI9231URL7

Fox News Exclusive, Carol McKinley on the unsourced DNA in JonBenet's panties:

www.foxnews.com

Carol McKinley: One piece of information which has been seen as a major clue, but which is wrong, is that the DNA which was in JonBenet's underwear came from a caucasian male. Truth is, it was never, ever tested for race. Because there's not enough, and it's tested, it will be used up. All we know is, it belongs to a male, we don't know what ethnicity it is.


http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Is-This-a-DNA-Case

Karr Arrest Warrant. Additionally, the arrest warrant (p. 82) in the John Mark Karr case did not state that the DNA was "caucasian" - merely that it contained a male fraction. This suggests that for whatever reason, BDA has not yet tested the JBR DNA for race.

What makes what Carol McKinley said any more true than what Charlie Brennan said in this documentary? I don't know if and how race was identified but both are reporters and both are only repeating what someone else reported to them. Carol says it wasn't male caucasian and Charlie Brennan says it was. Unless we see the lab reports ourselves we just don't know.

I do know you don't need all of the markers to determine race. Just ask the forensic lab people from the World Trade Center. They were working with minute fragments of DNA and were able to ID people with 4 loci and that was in 2001. Scientists from around the world interjected their expertise at the time to enable IDs with a minute source of DNA.

[nuisanceposter]

I couldn't find where he said "what we saw was not what he had originally intended to be seen.."

That was not a direct quote, that was my paraphrase. I never meant to imply those were Schiller's words. If I wanted to quote him, you'd see quotation marks around the words I was quoting from him.

[Athena]

Synopsis of Documentary:

There was fiber from the cord used to tie JBR's hands found on HER bed which suggested that she had been tied to the bed which is believed to be more consistent with an intruder rather than a family member.

The isolated DNA WAS from a male Caucasian (Charlie Brennan) and was repeated by the narrator.

Michael Doberson was the one who did stun gun experiments with an anesthized pig and stated the stun gun marks were similar. He also cleared up the conflicting statements that I have read by RDIs re: his views on the use of the stun gun as he does believe the marks were consistent with a stun gun.

Tests done on that duct tape matched nothing found in the home, or used by the Ramseys or any friends. In addition to that no purchases of duct tape had been matched to this specific duct tape. There were NO matches to this duct tape found anywhere.

The shoe print did not match Burke’s and still remains unidentified.

The only so-called evidence the BPD had were:

That Patsy could not be excluded as the author of the note
That Patsy had on the same clothes
The odd amount of ransom asked for
No clear sign of forced entry
No disturbance caused to alert occupants of the house

Michael Kane himself said straight out that every imaginable piece of evidence of anything that could have been construed as evidence could not be definitively tied to the Ramseys as being the murderer.

Even though the BPD felt they had an air-tight case, Henry Lee admits here that after the huge conference where the presentations were made there were still more questions than answers.

I remember reading a post by an RDI that said the particular grand juror that was interviewed specfically said she did not believe parents could do this to their child and she said no such thing. She did say it was frustrating to them that the DNA results were not in. She said the most significant part of the case was the skull fracture.

It is believed blow had to be struck by a man because of the force and with a flashlight.. The breakage of the paintbrush Lee felt Patsy could not have done that.

Schiller did say that some of the grand jurors (plural) he spoke with did say that they believed the parents were incapable of killing their child because of no history of prior behavior, motive or definitive evidence.

Ed Gelb, Polygrapher says he believes there was no deception in any of the three tests administered and BOTH were asked questions about the note and knowledge of the killer. He also says JR was very angry and it was difficult to develop a rapport .

The pineapple/tea glass still remain a mystery:

In the portion of the interview with Patsy she claims she cleaned the breakfast table and the pineapple bowl and tea glass were not there. My question is could someone have placed it there the morning of with all the visitors there? Could someone have made tea and just placed the teabag in an empty glass? I never could understand why a drinking glass would have a teabag in it since it did not look like a hot/cold cup?

Guess I shouldn't be surprised -- but NO DNA testing was done on the spoon or the glass??? Totally incredible.

It appears the biggest question is about how the pineapple got into JBR?

[nuisanceposter]

What makes what Carol McKinley said any more true than what Charlie Brennan said in this documentary? I don't know if and how race was identified but both are reporters and both are only repeating what someone else reported to them. Carol says it wasn't male caucasian and Charlie Brennan says it was. Unless we see the lab reports ourselves we just don't know.

I do know you don't need all of the markers to determine race. Just ask the forensic lab people from the World Trade Center. They were working with minute fragments of DNA and were able to ID people with 4 loci and that was in 2001. Scientists from around the world interjected their expertise at the time to enable IDs with a minute source of DNA.

I think it's indicative that they don't know the race because it wasn't listed in Karr's arrest warrant. Not solid proof, but certainly indicative. AS KC pointed out, I have never heard anyone not associated with the RST (or a reporter repeating info from the RST) say that the race of the DNA was identified as Caucasian. If you can find someone impartial who would have seen the test reports and also has said that the DNA is definitely from a Caucasian, I'd reconsider.

In Tricia's email to Schiller, she notes that Wood said the DNA was sourced to saliva, and then she points out that she has contacted a criminologist who told her "If the DNA is from semen or saliva or blood, then the DNA would only be an accurate indicator of gender, and the race would basically be a big guess."

But personally I don't believe that fragmented, degraded sample of DNA has anything to do with JonBenet's murderer. I still have never heard an answer for how a sample of DNA that was deposited at the same as JonBenet's (when she was assaulted and killed) can be so degraded and fragmented while hers is fresh and complete. That does not make sense. What does make sense is that the DNA was already there prior to her being dressed in them, and that explains why it's not as fresh and complete.

[LindaA]

Thank you, Athena for that wonderful synopsis. You must have taken notes. What you reported is exactly what I recall being said.

[Louisadelmar]

That was not a direct quote, that was my paraphrase. I never meant to imply those were Schiller's words. If I wanted to quote him, you'd see quotation marks around the words I was quoting from him.

I was quoting you. I didn't see anything that suggested the results weren't what he intended. Nor did he suggest they took liberties. Merely that they had control over the final edit which, I believe, is SOP.

Thanks for keeping me up to speed.

I could have done a two hour show and included all these areas which are important, but Court TV decided what was important for their audience. They had control over the final edit of the show. Please keep in mind that Court TV has their own reasons for including and excluding and editing the show tight.

You’re a big help and I will adjust some of my information in the future.

Regards.

Larry

[Zoey]

Athena:

Good job. I was unable to watch the show, as it was on at 1:00 am here and it was way past my bed time!!

One thing that caught my eye and that I have always believed. The tea bag in the glass was perhaps indeed put in there by one of the many visitors. The advocates and many others brought food into the house, including fruit, sandwiches and drinks. Coffee was made as well. Perhaps hot tea was as well?? Just because something appears as it does, does not mean that it is the way it is.

[Athena]

I think it's indicative that they don't know the race because it wasn't listed in Karr's arrest warrant. Not solid proof, but certainly indicative. AS KC pointed out, I have never heard anyone not associated with the RST (or a reporter repeating info from the RST) say that the race of the DNA was identified as Caucasian. If you can find someone impartial who would have seen the test reports and also has said that the DNA is definitely from a Caucasian, I'd reconsider.

In Tricia's email to Schiller, she notes that Wood said the DNA was sourced to saliva, and then she points out that she has contacted a criminologist who told her "If the DNA is from semen or saliva or blood, then the DNA would only be an accurate indicator of gender, and the race would basically be a big guess."

But personally I don't believe that fragmented, degraded sample of DNA has anything to do with JonBenet's murderer. I still have never heard an answer for how a sample of DNA that was deposited at the same as JonBenet's (when she was assaulted and killed) can be so degraded and fragmented while hers is fresh and complete. That does not make sense. What does make sense is that the DNA was already there prior to her being dressed in them, and that explains why it's not as fresh and complete.

What I understood is that the DNA is good enough for exclusions and CAN provide a partial match which means at least the pool is narrowed down. You also have to remember this saliva was mixed in with her blood and had to be isolated. I would imagine something would be "lost" during this isolation process and it was determined to be useful. I would also think that hers would be easier to identify since they had something specific to match it to -- her. JMO

[Athena]

Thank you, Athena for that wonderful synopsis. You must have taken notes. What you reported is exactly what I recall being said.

Thanks Linda!

I actually taped it and watched it this morning as I fell asleep on it last night. Rough week. LOL

I wanted to add also if anyone sees anything incorrect -- please feel free to edit or of course point out discrepancies -- I was typing as I was watching it and also had to rewind it a couple of times.

[Athena]

Interesting article re: dna from saliva/ethnicity:

On Saturday, 65 people got some surprising answers using the latest DNA technology at a workshop at the College of Alameda.

Each participant gave a DNA sample -- a swab of saliva -- at an April 1 class. Their DNA was compared to a database of DNA from four bio-geographical population groups -- sub-Saharan African, European, East Asian and Native American -- to yield a percentage breakdown of ancestry.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/06/11/BAG14JCDI31.DTL&q=q

[nuisanceposter]

There's still no proof that the foreign DNA came from the killer or is in any way related to the crime, and with Dr Lee finding DNA in brand new packages of underwear, I'd say it's even more remote.

I'm not pinning the chances of solving this murder on the DNA. IMO, this not a DNA case.

And I'd say Steve Thomas found even more proof that there was indication of Ramsey involvement beyond that laughably small laundry list of evidence you said was in the doc. So did CASKU. I wonder why the presentation with them and their agreement that this crime reeks of accidental death being covered up with parental involvement wasn't covered.

You can only expect so much from a show that was as biased in Ramsey favor as that show was. I'd like to see someone present the case from the opposite point of view, but it seems everyone's too scared of big bad bully Lin Wood to do it.

I'm pretty sure that piece of duct tape came off of one of JonBenet's AG dolls, probably Molly. She was given the Molly doll by Nedra in Sept of 96, IIRC. The Pleasant Company, manufacturer of the AG dolls, suggests using duct tape to secure the tails of the string used to fasten the head of the doll to the body - the soft tan body which could very well be the source of the tan or brown fibers found on the tape. If that's the case, then no wonder no one has been able to locate the roll of tape - who knows if it got used up between Sept. and Dec. It's also suspicious that Pam Paugh specifically retrieved JB's AG dolls on Dec 28th when she allowed into the R house to get funeral clothes, and even more so that a Molly doll was ordered in JonBenet's name in January of 1997.

Check this out:

http://www.geocities.com/pinker44/

JonBenet was found dead with a decorative noose around her neck in the basement of her home the day after Christmas 1996. An autopsy revealed a mortal skull fracture yet there were no outward signs of this trauma. Her body was not battered as is sensationally claimed. She was wrapped in a white blanket with a piece of duct tape over her mouth. No one has ever been charged with the heinous crime. Mysterious dark blue fibers were found on her body, tan cotton fibers were found on the duct tape, and 'assorted hair' fibers were found littering the scene. No sources for the tape or fibers were found in the home and the crime remains unsolved and attributed to an intruder.

In an unprecedented move, Mrs. Ramsey's sister; Pam Paugh, was allowed into an active crime scene; still under investigation, with the pretense of getting clothing for the funeral. The list of things removed included far more than mourning attire. A friend in the DA's office; Pete Hofstrom, may have inapropriately influenced this decision. It went so far as the sister impersonating a police officer wearing a jacket and badge so as not to arouse suspicion. With multiple unfamiliar investigative agencies present, her actions would have appeared and been considered official.

Two years later it was published she had removed several dolls from the American Girls Collection. The dolls are 18" tall with a head and limbs of vinyl and a tan cotton body. The head is attached to the body with a string that is tied leaving a few inches dangling down the back. The cord can get in the way when the hair is brushed. In 1998 the company did train employees to suggest duct taping the string down as one of many ways to deal with the problem. The size of the tape from JonBenet matches if it had been on a doll. It was coated with tan cotton fibers descriptively matching the body of the doll.

One of the dolls, Molly, comes in an outfit of navy wool that visibly sheds, another descriptive match to fibers associated with the crime and the killer. A 'replacement' doll was delivered by UPS to John Ramsey's office within days of the funeral. It was paid for blindly with a money order. Why did the Ramseys specifically ask for those dolls to be removed? JonBenet only had them a few months. She had received a Samantha doll in August and Nedra purchased another in September.

[Athena]

This doll theory has been around for years. I don't believe for one second that it was not brought to the attention of the BPD and they could have been obtained/confiscated. As far as I am concerned it is not part of the evidence, has never been and therefore doesn't count at all. And if duct tape was used -- specifically what kind? Doesn't mean it matched the duct tape used during the murder nor does it prove there were in fact any duct tape on the dolls. As far as the "decorative" cord there is a difference in the cords and I saw them in pictures but don't remember where they are and they don't match. There's a difference between decorative cord and the cord used in the killing. Brown fibers were found on the duct tape not tan; presumed to have come from some kind of work gloves that also were never found. I also believe human hair and synthetic hair can easily be differentiated. JMO

I'd also like to know -- which is it? Black or blue fibers or any color that fits a speculation?

[shill]

Synopsis of Documentary:

There was fiber from the cord used to tie JBR's hands found on HER bed which suggested that she had been tied to the bed which is believed to be more consistent with an intruder rather than a family member.

The isolated DNA WAS from a male Caucasian (Charlie Brennan) and was repeated by the narrator.

Michael Doberson was the one who did stun gun experiments with an anesthized pig and stated the stun gun marks were similar. He also cleared up the conflicting statements that I have read by RDIs re: his views on the use of the stun gun as he does believe the marks were consistent with a stun gun.

Tests done on that duct tape matched nothing found in the home, or used by the Ramseys or any friends. In addition to that no purchases of duct tape had been matched to this specific duct tape. There were NO matches to this duct tape found anywhere.

The shoe print did not match Burke’s and still remains unidentified.

The only so-called evidence the BPD had were:

That Patsy could not be excluded as the author of the note
That Patsy had on the same clothes
The odd amount of ransom asked for
No clear sign of forced entry
No disturbance caused to alert occupants of the house

Michael Kane himself said straight out that every imaginable piece of evidence of anything that could have been construed as evidence could not be definitively tied to the Ramseys as being the murderer.

Even though the BPD felt they had an air-tight case, Henry Lee admits here that after the huge conference where the presentations were made there were still more questions than answers.

I remember reading a post by an RDI that said the particular grand juror that was interviewed specfically said she did not believe parents could do this to their child and she said no such thing. She did say it was frustrating to them that the DNA results were not in. She said the most significant part of the case was the skull fracture.

It is believed blow had to be struck by a man because of the force and with a flashlight.. The breakage of the paintbrush Lee felt Patsy could not have done that.

Schiller did say that some of the grand jurors (plural) he spoke with did say that they believed the parents were incapable of killing their child because of no history of prior behavior, motive or definitive evidence.

Ed Gelb, Polygrapher says he believes there was no deception in any of the three tests administered and BOTH were asked questions about the note and knowledge of the killer. He also says JR was very angry and it was difficult to develop a rapport .

The pineapple/tea glass still remain a mystery:

In the portion of the interview with Patsy she claims she cleaned the breakfast table and the pineapple bowl and tea glass were not there. My question is could someone have placed it there the morning of with all the visitors there? Could someone have made tea and just placed the teabag in an empty glass? I never could understand why a drinking glass would have a teabag in it since it did not look like a hot/cold cup?

Guess I shouldn't be surprised -- but NO DNA testing was done on the spoon or the glass??? Totally incredible.

It appears the biggest question is about how the pineapple got into JBR?

Nice wrap up, well done!

Pineapple is finger food. I still think JB got up in the middle of the night hungry and went to the fridge by herself and used her fingers to get a snack from the container of pineapple.

[thewhitewitch1]

Athena:

Good job. I was unable to watch the show, as it was on at 1:00 am here and it was way past my bed time!!

One thing that caught my eye and that I have always believed. The tea bag in the glass was perhaps indeed put in there by one of the many visitors. The advocates and many others brought food into the house, including fruit, sandwiches and drinks. Coffee was made as well. Perhaps hot tea was as well?? Just because something appears as it does, does not mean that it is the way it is.

Then why were there no other fingerprints on the glass besides Burkes? And none on the bowl besides Burkes and Patsys? Where were the pineapple "rinds" or containers that it came in? How do you know the advocates and others brought fruit, sandwiches and drinks in? Why was there only one bowl of pineapple and only one spoon? Why hasn't someone spoken up who was there that day and claimed knowledge of bringing the pineapple in? Or of having a glass of tea?
Just because something appears as it does, does not make it anything more than what it actually is.

[Zoey]

Then why were there no other fingerprints on the glass besides Burkes? And none on the bowl besides Burkes and Patsys? Where were the pineapple "rinds" or containers that it came in? How do you know the advocates and others brought fruit, sandwiches and drinks in? Why was there only one bowl of pineapple and only one spoon? Why hasn't someone spoken up who was there that day and claimed knowledge of bringing the pineapple in? Or of having a glass of tea?
Just because something appears as it does, does not make it anything more than what it actually is.


Early that morning, police had called in a team of victims' advocates, trained in helping families through traumatic situations, who arrived with bagels and coffee. After using the kitchen, the advocates began tidying it up, a law-enforcement official told NEWSWEEK. One friend helped clean the kitchen, wiping down the counters with a spray cleaner—and possibly wiping away important evidence.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14394982/site/newsweek/page/2/

I have another link that says sandwich and fruit was brought it. I am searching. Patience please.

[shill]

The spoon wasn't the proper serving spoon for that bowl and the glass was not the kind you serve tea in. It appears that someone, like a child maybe, who does not understand or care about etiquette, had gotten these items out.
With only Burkes fingerprints on both items, IMO it appears he would be most likely the person who got all of these items out.
So how has he hidden this big secret all this time?

[KingCoyote]

I think Shill is pretty close to nailing it with the idea that a child, like Burke probably got the bowl out the refrigerator and tried to make himself a glass of iced tea, which Patsy has stated he liked, and Burke having no idea how to make iced tea, just improvised. The question of how is it he has kept that to himself is a good one. The other question is where did the pineapple come from in the first place? I would speculate that a guest at the 12/23 party brought it in another container. It got transferred to the bowl that night very innocuously by someone at the serving/food table. Patsy may have unknowingly touched it moving things around in the refrigerator. Burke and a friend had a mid afternoon snack on Christmas Day after being told there would be no lunch due to the big Christmas breakfast and dinner would be at the Whites, so don't ruin your appetite and be a good guest. Burke probably just left the glass and bowl on the table due to short attention span of a 9 year old and didn't want to take the blame and get all mixed up in the JBR killing, so he figures he's kept his mouth shut for a few days, why not try a few weeks, then a few months....just forget about it....maybe he just blocked it out in order to stay completely on the sidelines in this matter. The flaw in this logic is that one would assume that the BPD talked to everyone at the 12/23 party and found out where the pineapple came from. My guess could be that by the time the BPD got around to everyone at the party, the evidence about the pineapple was public and whoever did bring it kept their mouth shut to stay out of this mess. How does that sound for an off the cuff guess?

[thewhitewitch1]

Nice wrap up, well done!

Pineapple is finger food. I still think JB got up in the middle of the night hungry and went to the fridge by herself and used her fingers to get a snack from the container of pineapple.

Then why does Patsy not even acknowledge having pineapple in the house?
And the pineapple was not in a "container". It was in a bowl. And the bowl was not in the fridge.

[thewhitewitch1]

Early that morning, police had called in a team of victims' advocates, trained in helping families through traumatic situations, who arrived with bagels and coffee. After using the kitchen, the advocates began tidying it up, a law-enforcement official told NEWSWEEK. One friend helped clean the kitchen, wiping down the counters with a spray cleaner—and possibly wiping away important evidence.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14394982/site/newsweek/page/2/

I have another link that says sandwich and fruit was brought it. I am searching. Patience please.

I'm not sure how "Newsweek" would know what food, if any, was brought in but thanks for the link.

[Zoey]

I'm not sure how "Newsweek" would know what food, if any, was brought in but thanks for the link.


I may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but doesn't the article say a law enforcement official told Newsweek? So I guess that is how they know, because they were told?

[thewhitewitch1]

I may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but doesn't the article say a law enforcement official told Newsweek? So I guess that is how they know, because they were told?

I guess so. Do you think it's some kind of coincidence that only Burke and Patsys prints were on the bowl and that JB had eaten pineapple shortly before her death? She certainly couldn't have eaten it if the advocates brought it in so where did she get it from? I'm sorry, but that's way beyond a coincidence to me.

[Zoey]

I guess so. Do you think it's some kind of coincidence that only Burke and Patsys prints were on the bowl and that JB had eaten pineapple shortly before her death? She certainly couldn't have eaten it if the advocates brought it in so where did she get it from? I'm sorry, but that's way beyond a coincidence to me.


I understand what you are saying, and I am still searching for the story about the sandwiches and the fruit, but please keep in mind, I never said they brought in pineapple. I just was answering your post about why the glass with the tea bag was there. I thought perhaps one of the many people who came and went out of that kitchen could have perhaps used it to put the tea bag in.

[aussiesheila]

There was fiber from the cord used to tie JBR's hands found on HER bed which suggested that she had been tied to the bed which is believed to be more consistent with an intruder rather than a family member.

Hi Athena, I have heard about the fibre on the bed before but have never been able to find out what original report that it came from.

I am an IDI and I am interested to know whether it has been established beyond doubt that there was a ligature fibre in the bed or not because it affects the kind of IDI scenario I envisage. Do you remember any more details about this? Thanks.

[aussiesheila]

Brown fibers were found on the duct tape not tan; presumed to have come from some kind of work gloves that also were never found.

I'd also like to know -- which is it? Black or blue fibers or any color that fits a speculation?Athena, I believe there were photos taken outside the Ramsey house after the murder showing a brown coloured glove on the ground. I say this because I am sure I read about it in one of the later police interviews of either John or Patsy and the interviewers were asking questions about whether the glove belonged to them.

I too have noticed that the fibre colours keep changing. It would be great to have access to the original lab reports rather than having to rely on what the police say the lab reports said.

[aussiesheila]

I think Shill is pretty close to nailing it with the idea that a child, like Burke probably got the bowl out the refrigerator and tried to make himself a glass of iced tea, which Patsy has stated he liked, and Burke having no idea how to make iced tea, just improvised. The question of how is it he has kept that to himself is a good one. The other question is where did the pineapple come from in the first place? I would speculate that a guest at the 12/23 party brought it in another container. It got transferred to the bowl that night very innocuously by someone at the serving/food table. Patsy may have unknowingly touched it moving things around in the refrigerator. Burke and a friend had a mid afternoon snack on Christmas Day after being told there would be no lunch due to the big Christmas breakfast and dinner would be at the Whites, so don't ruin your appetite and be a good guest. Burke probably just left the glass and bowl on the table due to short attention span of a 9 year old and didn't want to take the blame and get all mixed up in the JBR killing, so he figures he's kept his mouth shut for a few days, why not try a few weeks, then a few months....just forget about it....maybe he just blocked it out in order to stay completely on the sidelines in this matter. The flaw in this logic is that one would assume that the BPD talked to everyone at the 12/23 party and found out where the pineapple came from. My guess could be that by the time the BPD got around to everyone at the party, the evidence about the pineapple was public and whoever did bring it kept their mouth shut to stay out of this mess. How does that sound for an off the cuff guess?I like the way you call this a guess KingCoyote. For your entertainment I will tell you what my guess is. I think the pineapple was brought to the house by Santa who had already made it his business to find out what JonBenet's favourite food was because he wanted something he could easily get her to eat a lot of. IMO he had laced the pineapple with a drug that would render her more amenable to the sexual abuse session he had planned he and his mates would indulge in with her once he had got Patsy out of the way.

[KingCoyote]

Aussiesheila:

My records indicate that the source for the ligature fiber in JBR's bed came from Judge Julie Carnes Summary Judgment Order in the Wolf vs. Ramsey Case Page 14.

If I can jump on the bandwagon of "Santa" being involved how's this for a guess?:

Santa Bill Took Child

Just a few guesses....

KingCoyote

[SnarkyCow]

Nice wrap up, well done!

Pineapple is finger food. I still think JB got up in the middle of the night hungry and went to the fridge by herself and used her fingers to get a snack from the container of pineapple.

Patsy, in her 1998 interview, directly states JB would not get up and fix herself a snack in the middle of the night. She also states she has never known Burke to get up and fix JB a snack:

PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, I would have heard
25 them. Burke would have gotten up and banged around
0486
1 getting cupboards open and getting stuff in the
2 refrigerator.
3 TOM HANEY: Well, if he banged around two
4 floors away, would you have heard that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: I hope I would have.
6 TOM HANEY: You wouldn't hear JonBenet's
7 toilet flush one floor away.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that was at the opposite
9 end of the house. The kitchen is down under my --
10 TOM HANEY: It is kind of central, is it?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I just -- he has -- I
12 have never known him to fix his sister, in the middle
13 of the night, something to eat. That would be unusual.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
16 TOM HANEY: Could it have happened?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Anything could have happened.
18 I mean, we know something strange happened that night,
19 but this looks weird to me. That is all I have. That
20 is all I know. That looks strange to me.
21 And if there was pineapple in her stomach and
22 that pineapple, that is -- I would like to know when
23 somebody first saw that there, you know, because there
24 were a lot of people floating around there.
25 PATRICK BURKE: Is this a good time for a
0487
1 break?
2 TOM HANEY: I have a couple of questions.
3 PATRICK BURKE: Before we get off of that,
4 just to finish, I think we have time left on the tape.
5 TOM HANEY: I am done talking, okay.
6 TRIP DEMUTH: Do I understand you to say that
7 JonBenet would not have fixed herself pineapple?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I very seriously doubt that.
9 TRIP DEMUTH: So if she had pineapple in her
10 system, someone had to serve that to her?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: That would be my guess.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. And we know that she did
13 have pineapple in her system.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
15 TRIP DEMUTH: Right.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: That is why I'm here.
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Someone would have had to serve
18 her pineapple.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems to me like that.
20 TRIP DEMUTH: The Whites have told us that
21 they did not serve her pineapple.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: We need to figure out when she
24 got pineapple.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Exactly.

[KingCoyote]

Let me toss out a few ideas about this pineapple "snack" JBR had in her system. I have tried to wind it into a whole sequence of events that may or may not make sense.

First, the pineapple arrives with a guest at the 12/23 party. Toward the end of the night the guest wants to leave the pineapple at the Ramseys. The guest sees the Ramseys bowl being washed and dried by another guest (leaving no fingerprints of the guest) and decides to pour the leftover pineapple into the Ramsey Bowl. The guest then takes some plastic wrap and puts it over the bowl and picks up the bowl in such a fashion as to not leave her prints on it and puts it in the huge refrigerator the R's have. (Later when the guests are questioned about that party they dummy up because they don't want to get anymore involved than they were by just being there.)

Christmas morning Patsy moves the bowl around in the refrigerator when she is making breakfast and leaves her fingerprints on the bowl. Christmas afternoon, "growing boy" Burke wants a snack because it is a long way from Christmas breakfast to the Whites party when he can eat again. He goes to the refrigerator, takes out the bowl, removes the plastic wrap which bunches up due to sticky pineapple juice on it, and he tosses the plastic wrap. He then grabs a glass which he can reach to make him some iced tea, which he likes according to PR's 1998 interview, but Burke has no idea how to make iced tea and improvises which makes the glass and teabag the evidence it is. Burke leaves the pineapple on the table on the afternoon of Christmas and it sits there unnoticed by all. Burke will claim no knowledge of the pineapple as well because he wants no involvement in the huge confusion going on that morning. He sticks to himself.

Ok...now it is about 10:30 PM. Patsy and John are nodding off.. or maybe not. Unusually (anything is possible in this case) JBR wakes up and remembers that tonight is the night of the Secret Santa Visit. This has been inadvertently planted in her mind by Patsy saying: 'This year you will get an extraspecial visit from Santa this Christmas.' Patsy is thinking of the My Twinn Doll she expects to be the hit of Christmas morning. JBR, being the six year old with the average six year old imagination, hears PR's statement this way: You will get a special, extra visit from Santa on Christmas (not Christmas Eve when most believe Santa comes, but Christmas.)

JBR now goes to the bathroom and forgets to flush.(SEE PR 98 Interview Page 273) (Also note that it is only 10:30 or so which leaves a couple of hours for urine to accumulate and be released when she is killed.) (Further note that PR has stated that she can't hear JBR's toilet flush because it is on the opposite side of the house. Sorry, can't find the cite right now....I am winging it.) Even JBR realizes her panties smell and need to be changed. She tosses the stained/soiled panties on the floor of the bathroom ( SEE PR 1998 Interview Page 456) When opening the panty drawer in the bathroom she decides she likes the new colored Bloomies which are the wrong size. But the Bloomies have a plastic loop which must be cut open to get into the package. (I found out about the plastic loop in Websleuths Forum Postings by Jayelle as to the "Big Bloomies which I consider recommended reading.) JBR needs a knife. She also sees her hair ties which are in the bathroom drawers and grabs a handful as she wants to pretty herself for Santa. (SEE discussion of hairties by LPH in PMPT727 and PR 98 Interview P.257-263. She needs a knife to cut the panty package open and she goes to where she knows someone left one. To the counter where the kitchen knife she may, herself, have used with her bead making kit or potholder loom set in her bedroom that she and friends may have been playing with that afternoon.(SEE PR 98 Interview 334 for Knife discussion.)

JBR ties an extra hairtie/ribbon or two or three into her hair and maybe even ties a scarf loosely around her neck to look pretty for Santa. Maybe she even puts on one of her Tiaras, I don't know...I am on a roll...

JBR goes down the front stairs as a direct path to the Living room where the tree is and she expects to get her special gift or whatever. She waits for a short while and gets bored. She wanders to the breakfast room and sees the bowl on the table. She gets up on a chair and reaches into the bowl when she realizes it is pineapple, one of her favorite food, plucks out one or two pieces without touching the bowl and goes back to the living room. She continues her vigil for the special visit by playing with toys from Christmas. She gets impatient and decides to go looking for the gifts. She knows that some gifts are hidden in the wine celllar. (PR 98 Interview 349/390) Kids just seem to know where gifts can be hidden.

She goes to the sink area drawers next to the spiral staircase where she knows a flashlight is kept. She will need it in a dark basement where the lights switches may be a little foreign to her since it is Burke who usually plays in the train room. As a child will do she leaves the drawer with the flashlight open. (See PR 98 Interview P 510) She proceeds down the basement steps, all adorned so pretty for Santa.

Unfortunately she will soon be confronted by.......drumroll please.....the Killer.... [the circumstances which led to the killer being in the basement is the subject of another post sequencing the events of the killer...coming soon to a thread near you]. The killer comes up from behind JBR and....

Oh....I'm sorry....I just wanted to explain the pineapple and got carried away to the point of explaining how all of this may, I repeat, may have happened when you actually sequence all evidence into logical database flows using Activities and Events which make up Phases and Stages of a Crime. I don't want to get off thread...

Yes I am beiing a snot right now.....sorry :tongue:

LOL

KingCoyote

[thewhitewitch1]

Patsy, in her 1998 interview, directly states JB would not get up and fix herself a snack in the middle of the night. She also states she has never known Burke to get up and fix JB a snack:


And to think that any intruder; be it a stranger or someone known to JB went about preparing her a bowl of pineapple that night goes absolutely beyond the realm of belief. IMO If you want to coax a kid out of bed with a goodie, you'd choose something that doesn't need to be "prepared" and if your intent is to kidnap or sexually assult her, you wouldn't make a timely stop in the kitchen to feed her a snack when anyone could have woken up and any time and caught you.

[SnarkyCow]

Let me toss out a few ideas about this pineapple "snack" JBR had in her system. I have tried to wind it into a whole sequence of events that may or may not make sense.

First, the pineapple arrives with a guest at the 12/23 party. Toward the end of the night the guest wants to leave the pineapple at the Ramseys. The guest sees the Ramseys bowl being washed and dried by another guest (leaving no fingerprints of the guest) and decides to pour the leftover pineapple into the Ramsey Bowl. The guest then takes some plastic wrap and puts it over the bowl and picks up the bowl in such a fashion as to not leave her prints on it and puts it in the huge refrigerator the R's have. (Later when the guests are questioned about that party they dummy up because they don't want to get anymore involved than they were by just being there.)

Christmas morning Patsy moves the bowl around in the refrigerator when she is making breakfast and leaves her fingerprints on the bowl. Christmas afternoon, "growing boy" Burke wants a snack because it is a long way from Christmas breakfast to the Whites party when he can eat again. He goes to the refrigerator, takes out the bowl, removes the plastic wrap which bunches up due to sticky pineapple juice on it, and he tosses the plastic wrap. He then grabs a glass which he can reach to make him some iced tea, which he likes according to PR's 1998 interview, but Burke has no idea how to make iced tea and improvises which makes the glass and teabag the evidence it is. Burke leaves the pineapple on the table on the afternoon of Christmas and it sits there unnoticed by all. Burke will claim no knowledge of the pineapple as well because he wants no involvement in the huge confusion going on that morning. He sticks to himself.

Ok...now it is about 10:30 PM. Patsy and John are nodding off.. or maybe not. Unusually (anything is possible in this case) JBR wakes up and remembers that tonight is the night of the Secret Santa Visit. This has been inadvertently planted in her mind by Patsy saying: 'This year you will get an extraspecial visit from Santa this Christmas.' Patsy is thinking of the My Twinn Doll she expects to be the hit of Christmas morning. JBR, being the six year old with the average six year old imagination, hears PR's statement this way: You will get a special, extra visit from Santa on Christmas (not Christmas Eve when most believe Santa comes, but Christmas.)

JBR now goes to the bathroom and forgets to flush.(SEE PR 98 Interview Page 273) (Also note that it is only 10:30 or so which leaves a couple of hours for urine to accumulate and be released when she is killed.) (Further note that PR has stated that she can't hear JBR's toilet flush because it is on the opposite side of the house. Sorry, can't find the cite right now....I am winging it.) Even JBR realizes her panties smell and need to be changed. She tosses the stained/soiled panties on the floor of the bathroom ( SEE PR 1998 Interview Page 456) When opening the panty drawer in the bathroom she decides she likes the new colored Bloomies which are the wrong size. But the Bloomies have a plastic loop which must be cut open to get into the package. (I found out about the plastic loop in Websleuths Forum Postings by Jayelle as to the "Big Bloomies which I consider recommended reading.) JBR needs a knife. She also sees her hair ties which are in the bathroom drawers and grabs a handful as she wants to pretty herself for Santa. (SEE discussion of hairties by LPH in PMPT727 and PR 98 Interview P.257-263. She needs a knife to cut the panty package open and she goes to where she knows someone left one. To the counter where the kitchen knife she may, herself, have used with her bead making kit or potholder loom set in her bedroom that she and friends may have been playing with that afternoon.(SEE PR 98 Interview 334 for Knife discussion.)

JBR ties an extra hairtie/ribbon or two or three into her hair and maybe even ties a scarf loosely around her neck to look pretty for Santa. Maybe she even puts on one of her Tiaras, I don't know...I am on a roll...

JBR goes down the front stairs as a direct path to the Living room where the tree is and she expects to get her special gift or whatever. She waits for a short while and gets bored. She wanders to the breakfast room and sees the bowl on the table. She gets up on a chair and reaches into the bowl when she realizes it is pineapple, one of her favorite food, plucks out one or two pieces without touching the bowl and goes back to the living room. She continues her vigil for the special visit by playing with toys from Christmas. She gets impatient and decides to go looking for the gifts. She knows that some gifts are hidden in the wine celllar. (PR 98 Interview 349/390) Kids just seem to know where gifts can be hidden.

She goes to the sink area drawers next to the spiral staircase where she knows a flashlight is kept. She will need it in a dark basement where the lights switches may be a little foreign to her since it is Burke who usually plays in the train room. As a child will do she leaves the drawer with the flashlight open. (See PR 98 Interview P 510) She proceeds down the basement steps, all adorned so pretty for Santa.

Unfortunately she will soon be confronted by.......drumroll please.....the Killer.... [the circumstances which led to the killer being in the basement is the subject of another post sequencing the events of the killer...coming soon to a thread near you]. The killer comes up from behind JBR and....

Oh....I'm sorry....I just wanted to explain the pineapple and got carried away to the point of explaining how all of this may, I repeat, may have happened when you actually sequence all evidence into logical database flows using Activities and Events which make up Phases and Stages of a Crime. I don't want to get off thread...

Yes I am beiing a snot right now.....sorry :tongue:

LOL

KingCoyote

Have you been drinking? (Just kidding - I swear, I just couldn't resist :D )

[shill]

Patsy, in her 1998 interview, directly states JB would not get up and fix herself a snack in the middle of the night. She also states she has never known Burke to get up and fix JB a snack:
So Patsy was always up in the middle of the night?
As far as Patsy knows, JB has never gotten up in the middle of the night for a snack, but if Patsy isn't up in the middle of the night, then she is just assuming.

[shill]

And to think that any intruder; be it a stranger or someone known to JB went about preparing her a bowl of pineapple that night goes absolutely beyond the realm of belief. IMO If you want to coax a kid out of bed with a goodie, you'd choose something that doesn't need to be "prepared" and if your intent is to kidnap or sexually assult her, you wouldn't make a timely stop in the kitchen to feed her a snack when anyone could have woken up and any time and caught you.
I have to agree with you on this one TWW.
It seems very much like the work of a child, most likely Burke.
I am assuming there is a chance that if Burke in fact did get the pineapple out, it may be known to the GJ and LE but not the public.
But it doesn't appear to have been left out by an adult, let alone an intruder.

[SnarkyCow]

So Patsy was always up in the middle of the night?
As far as Patsy knows, JB has never gotten up in the middle of the night for a snack, but if Patsy isn't up in the middle of the night, then she is just assuming.

I'm curious Shill, who will/do you believe? You won't/don't believe the child's mother, the woman you think is innocent? There aren't a lot of concrete facts to go on in this case so we have to use what we have. Transcripts (like the direct quote of an interview, from the mother, who would know her childrens' habits better than anyone) still aren't enough for you. You are quick to shoot down peoples' theories & ideas, but you don't back up your statements with anything of substance - I think you just like being contrary.

Cheers,

Snarky

[shill]

I'm curious Shill, who will/do you believe? You won't/don't believe the child's mother, the woman you think is innocent? There aren't a lot of concrete facts to go on in this case so we have to use what we have. Transcripts (like the direct quote of an interview, from the mother, who would know her childrens' habits better than anyone) still aren't enough for you. You are quick to shoot down peoples' theories & ideas, but you don't back up your statements with anything of substance - I think you just like being contrary.

Cheers,

Snarky

"As far as Patsy knows, JB has never gotten up in the middle of the night for a snack, but if Patsy isn't up in the middle of the night, then she is just assuming."

I do believe Patsy's testimony. Where and when did I ever say she was lying? Not in the statement above. I take it English isn't your first language?
I think you just like being contrary.

[SnarkyCow]

"As far as Patsy knows, JB has never gotten up in the middle of the night for a snack, but if Patsy isn't up in the middle of the night, then she is just assuming."

I do believe Patsy's testimony. Where and when did I ever say she was lying? Not in the statement above. I take it English isn't your first language?
I think you just like being contrary.

I never said you said she was lying. I asked who you'll believe regarding the Ramsey kids' night time habits if not Patsy. Certainly, if the children had gotten up in the past to fix a snack there would have been evidence of such an activity. Are we to believe a 9 year old and 6 year old would get up, get a snack, and clean up after themselves so that Patsy would never be able to tell they'd been eating in the middle of the night? According to her statement (and I'm paraphrasing here) they had never gotten up for a snack in the past and it's unlikely they did so on the evening in question.

As for English being my first language - you just can't post without a little jab here and there can you? FYI: It undermines your intelligence.

[shill]

I never said you said she was lying. I asked who you'll believe regarding the Ramsey kids' night time habits if not Patsy. Certainly, if the children had gotten up in the past to fix a snack there would have been evidence of such an activity. Are we to believe a 9 year old and 6 year old would get up, get a snack, and clean up after themselves so that Patsy would never be able to tell they'd been eating in the middle of the night? According to her statement (and I'm paraphrasing here) they had never gotten up for a snack in the past and it's unlikely they did so on the evening in question.

As for English being my first language - you just can't post without a little jab here and there can you? FYI: It undermines your intelligence.

Sneaking snacks is what kids do. The object is to not get caught. Kids do a lot of things that their parents don't think they do.
Yes, I think Burke and JonBenet could have helped themselves to snacks on several occasions without their parents knowing.

Thanks for the FYI, you should take some of your own advice.

[SnarkyCow]

Thanks for the FYI, you should take some of your own advice.

Eye Eye Captain :patriot: Although I'm not the one who got "talked to" about my posts and behavior am I? When have I ever been deliberately cruel or inflamatory to someone here? The answer: Never. I call them like I see them & I expect the same in return. I won't be bullied by your name-calling or below the belt comments - I'll call you on them everytime.

[nuisanceposter]

Sneaking snacks is what kids do. The object is to not get caught. Kids do a lot of things that their parents don't think they do.
Yes, I think Burke and JonBenet could have helped themselves to snacks on several occasions without their parents knowing.

And what's going to happen to Burke and JonBenet if their overindulgent mother finds out they're hungry during the night and had a snack? They're going to be spanked and deprived of food in the future? I think not. Patsy's not going to get angry at all - if she didn't care if Burke whittled and dropped shavings all over the house, she's not going to care if the kids get up and have a snack and don't leave the kitchen looking as if they'd never even been in it. There's no incentive for them to clean up after themselves - they never did, and Patsy never cared. She just hired someone to take care of it for her and went back to planning luncheons and pageants. It wouldn't have mattered if they'd gotten caught because they weren't made to be responsible for themselves in the first place.

And by the way, according to Patsy, it was her custom to get up every night around midnight and take JonBenet to the bathroom. That's in DOI. That means she was indeed up during the night every night (if she telling the truth about that) and would have noticed if the kids had been up snacking, especially when she said she was the first one up every morning, too.

[SnarkyCow]

And what's going to happen to Burke and JonBenet if their overindulgent mother finds out they're hungry during the night and had a snack? They're going to be spanked and deprived of food in the future? I think not. Patsy's not going to get angry at all - if she didn't care if Burke whittled and dropped shavings all over the house, she's not going to care if the kids get up and have a snack and don't leave the kitchen looking as if they'd never even been in it. There's no incentive for them to clean up after themselves - they never did, and Patsy never cared. She just hired someone to take care of it for her and went back to planning luncheons and pageants. It wouldn't have mattered if they'd gotten caught because they weren't made to be responsible for themselves in the first place.

And by the way, according to Patsy, it was her custom to get up every night around midnight and take JonBenet to the bathroom. That's in DOI. That means she was indeed up during the night every night (if she telling the truth about that) and would have noticed if the kids had been up snacking, especially when she said she was the first one up every morning, too.

All good points NP! http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/snarky44/avata2.gif

[shill]

And by the way, according to Patsy, it was her custom to get up every night around midnight and take JonBenet to the bathroom. That's in DOI. That means she was indeed up during the night every night (if she telling the truth about that) and would have noticed if the kids had been up snacking, especially when she said she was the first one up every morning, too.
Well she never said she was up at midnight that night. If it was a custom for the two of them, it would seem safe to say that JB got up at midnight that night and Patsy didn't.

[KingCoyote]

I get your drift SnarkyCow....sometimes we all have to step back and laugh at ourselves.....sometimes I think everybody is laughing at me :biggrin: but all kidding aside...I am going to stand by what I said in that long post as to how the pineapple got into JBR until I hear something better...I just want to sequence the events in some commonplace and logical fashion to match the evidence and that is all I ask of anyone else.

KC

[shill]

I'm curious Shill, who will/do you believe? You won't/don't believe the child's mother, the woman you think is innocent? There aren't a lot of concrete facts to go on in this case so we have to use what we have. Transcripts (like the direct quote of an interview, from the mother, who would know her childrens' habits better than anyone) still aren't enough for you. You are quick to shoot down peoples' theories & ideas, but you don't back up your statements with anything of substance - I think you just like being contrary.

Cheers,

SnarkyThis whole post is insulting and below the belt, with name calling at the end.
It as bad as anything I've ever posted.
I just don't tattletale on people like others do.

[SnarkyCow]

I get your drift SnarkyCow....sometimes we all have to step back and laugh at ourselves.....sometimes I think everybody is laughing at me :biggrin: but all kidding aside...I am going to stand by what I said in that long post as to how the pineapple got into JBR until I hear something better...I just want to sequence the events in some commonplace and logical fashion to match the evidence and that is all I ask of anyone else.

KC

I was truly kidding - and I agree about the sequence of events needing to follow a logic matching the evidence. :beer:

My thought on the pineapple logically? Patsy never thought feeding JB would come back to haunt her during the investigation - her feeding JB pineapple would completely undermine the Ramseys swearing JB was sound asleep and went straight from the car to bed that night. If they admitted to giving JB a snack it would prove right away that they lied about her being asleep. Best plan? Swear she was asleep and someone else, an intruder, had to feed her the pineapple.

I look at this case (and I've said it before) as the shortest way between two points is a straight line. That straight line being the Ramseys -------- to JonBenet.

I enjoy your posts KingCoyote!

[KingCoyote]

I know you were kidding.....you may be on to something with the straight line theory...I will have to seriously consider that idea...Thanks

KC

[SnarkyCow]

This whole post is insulting and below the belt, with name calling at the end.
It as bad as anything I've ever posted.
I just don't tattletale on people like others do.

Me asking you questions is below the belt? Okay, point taken, I won't do that again. Shill, you can dish it, but not take it. Chill, it's just a messageboard - don't get your panties wadded. I said I think you like being contrary - what is so insulting and below the belt about that? I thought you didn't like thin-skinned posters? I see you as a contrary poster - that is my opinion, which I'm allowed to have. I didn't call you a name (like I've seen you do to several posters you don't agree with) - I merely stated my opinion.

This is tired - we are never going to agree, so I'm bowing out gracefully. I'll even let you win. ;)

[createthis]

I was truly kidding - and I agree about the sequence of events needing to follow a logic matching the evidence. :beer:

My thought on the pineapple logically? Patsy never thought feeding JB would come back to haunt her during the investigation - her feeding JB pineapple would completely undermine the Ramseys swearing JB was sound asleep and went straight from the car to bed that night. If they admitted to giving JB a snack it would prove right away that they lied about her being asleep. Best plan? Swear she was asleep and someone else, an intruder, had to feed her the pineapple.

I look at this case (and I've said it before) as the shortest way between two points is a straight line. That straight line being the Ramseys -------- to JonBenet.

I enjoy your posts KingCoyote!
I agree that could have easily happened. It seemed so logical and peaceful...like that was right (but my emotions don't mean a thing to this case), I just had a feeling like "of course, that's how it was" when I read that Snarky. I have a six yr old daughter that asks for a snack every night before bed. She probably WAS asleep in the car but woke up when they went inside, JB whined for a snack, it was late, and Patsy being tired from the busy day grabbed for something quick and easy, the bowl of pineapple out of the fridge and fed her a few bites with the spoon and probably took a few bites herself...I've done that a thousand times with my daughter especially fruit before bed (it's quick and easy). As to what conspired after that...

[thewhitewitch1]

Well she never said she was up at midnight that night. If it was a custom for the two of them, it would seem safe to say that JB got up at midnight that night and Patsy didn't.

If we are going to assume, we could also assume that since Patsy didn't wake JB up at all to use the bathroom that night, JB very well could have wet her bed. Patsy had said herself that's what usually would happen if they didn't wake her up. If it was a "custom" for the two of them and JB was in the habit of getting up herself to use the bathroom, she wouldn't have needed Patsy to wake her up to go. (did that make sense?) Then you have the housekeeper stating that the sheets had been changed since she was last there 2 days ago, the barbie nightgown "stuck" to the blanket she was found in as if from static from the dryer, the bed looking like the blanket had not even been on it (comforter would have had to have been pulled off since the blanket would have been tucked in) and it certainly would seem from these facts that she did, indeed wet the bed that night. The sheets would have had to have been changed either Christmas Eve or Christmas night. If JB was still wearing same pink thermal pjs on Christmas morning that she went to bed in that night, she couldn't have wet the bed that night so that leaves only Christmas night.
An intruder would not wash sheets or know about the blanket in the dryer, let alone waste time and risk making the noise of retrieving it from the dryer.
KingCoyote, your scenerio is good but I still believe that Patsy was there with JB when the pineapple was eaten...and evidently, Burke must have been too.
I think that JB wet the bed and woke Patsy up. Maybe she was hungry and whiney so Patsy got the pineapple out for her to eat. What happened after that, I'm at a loss but we all know something did.
I don't believe JB would have taken a flashlight and gone into the basement at night for any reason at all. Basements scare kids and flashlights cause scarey shadows. I've read that JB was afraid of the basement.
There have been a couple of accounts of a neighbor seeing dim lights on in the kitchen around midnight at the Ramsey house so I think it's reasonable to assume that this is the time that JB sat in the kitchen eating the pineapple. Does anyone remember what time (approx) that Melody Stanton reported hearing the scream? I think I recall she said she didn't look at her clock but I bet it was shortly after midnight.
These are only some of the reasons why I believe there was no intruder and that the Ramseys had to have been involved.

[shill]

If we are going to assume, we could also assume that since Patsy didn't wake JB up at all to use the bathroom that night, JB very well could have wet her bed. Patsy had said herself that's what usually would happen if they didn't wake her up. If it was a "custom" for the two of them and JB was in the habit of getting up herself to use the bathroom, she wouldn't have needed Patsy to wake her up to go. (did that make sense?) Then you have the housekeeper stating that the sheets had been changed since she was last there 2 days ago, the barbie nightgown "stuck" to the blanket she was found in as if from static from the dryer, the bed looking like the blanket had not even been on it (comforter would have had to have been pulled off since the blanket would have been tucked in) and it certainly would seem from these facts that she did, indeed wet the bed that night. The sheets would have had to have been changed either Christmas Eve or Christmas night. If JB was still wearing same pink thermal pjs on Christmas morning that she went to bed in that night, she couldn't have wet the bed that night so that leaves only Christmas night.
An intruder would not wash sheets or know about the blanket in the dryer, let alone waste time and risk making the noise of retrieving it from the dryer.
KingCoyote, your scenerio is good but I still believe that Patsy was there with JB when the pineapple was eaten...and evidently, Burke must have been too.
I think that JB wet the bed and woke Patsy up. Maybe she was hungry and whiney so Patsy got the pineapple out for her to eat. What happened after that, I'm at a loss but we all know something did.
I don't believe JB would have taken a flashlight and gone into the basement at night for any reason at all. Basements scare kids and flashlights cause scarey shadows. I've read that JB was afraid of the basement.
There have been a couple of accounts of a neighbor seeing dim lights on in the kitchen around midnight at the Ramsey house so I think it's reasonable to assume that this is the time that JB sat in the kitchen eating the pineapple. Does anyone remember what time (approx) that Melody Stanton reported hearing the scream? I think I recall she said she didn't look at her clock but I bet it was shortly after midnight.
These are only some of the reasons why I believe there was no intruder and that the Ramseys had to have been involved.

I agree, JB probably did get up to go to the bathroom herself.
Wasn't the toilet still filled with her un-flushed urine?
IMO she most likely went to the bathroom by herself instead of wetting her bed around midnight. At this point she was hungry and since Patsy was asleep, she got herself a little pineapple.

[shill]

Me asking you questions is below the belt? Okay, point taken, I won't do that again. Shill, you can dish it, but not take it. Chill, it's just a messageboard - don't get your panties wadded. I said I think you like being contrary - what is so insulting and below the belt about that? I thought you didn't like thin-skinned posters? I see you as a contrary poster - that is my opinion, which I'm allowed to have. I didn't call you a name (like I've seen you do to several posters you don't agree with) - I merely stated my opinion.

This is tired - we are never going to agree, so I'm bowing out gracefully. I'll even let you win. ;)

All I've ever done is stated my opinion.
What you said doesn't bother me, I was merely pointing out what a hypocrite you are. I'll try and dumb it down for you next time so you get it.

[thewhitewitch1]

I agree, JB probably did get up to go to the bathroom herself.
Wasn't the toilet still filled with her un-flushed urine?
IMO she most likely went to the bathroom by herself instead of wetting her bed around midnight. At this point she was hungry and since Patsy was asleep, she got herself a little pineapple.


Huh? I didn't say I think she got up by herself. Quite the opposite!
I meant that if JB was accustomed to getting up in the middle of the night herself to use the bathroom, Patsy wouldn't have had to wake her up every night to go (and Patsy has said that she was in the habit of waking her up to go every night). Patsy didn't wake her up to go that night; therefore, she most likely wet the bed. Note the reasons I gave for believing this.

[shill]

Huh? I didn't say I think she got up by herself. Quite the opposite!
I meant that if JB was accustomed to getting up in the middle of the night herself to use the bathroom, Patsy wouldn't have had to wake her up every night to go (and Patsy has said that she was in the habit of waking her up to go every night). Patsy didn't wake her up to go that night; therefore, she most likely wet the bed. Note the reasons I gave for believing this.

Sorry, I guess I didn't make sense of it.
So I guess I don't agree with you on that.

[KingCoyote]

I am going to take a crack at listing the options about this bowl and tea glass and see which one fits the evidence without guessing why anyone got up.

1. JBR awake when arriving home. PR fixes snack for JBR and BR. This assumes PR uses oversized spoon and strange way of making tea for Burke.
PROBLEM: PR's fingerprints not on glass and it conflicts with JR/PR consistent statements but not with one of Burke's statements.

2. JBR gets up by herself and makes snack
PROBLEM: Improbable for JBR to awake on her own and how did glass get there?...she can't reach cabinets. No JBR prints on anything

3. JBR and BR both get up and go make snack
PROBLEM: highly improbable-no apparent past history of doing so

4. JBR and PR go down for snack.
PROBLEM: Doesn't account for BR's prints on bowl and BR's prints on glass much less the reason the glass is there.

5. Intruder prepares pineapple and tea for JBR
PROBLEM: Doesn't account for BR's prints on bowl and glass

6. Go back and read my looooong post about the sequence of events.

And we haven't even discussed the kleenex box being there...what is that?...a makeshift napkin box?

What other combinations of events are left????

If you use the Sherlock Holmes approach: "eliminate the impossible and whatever is left, however improbable, must be the answer." Just based on the 6 options above, it appears to me that only 3 and 6 are left. (Where is good ole Sherlock when we need him?)

KingCoyote :confused: :shrug:

[KingCoyote]

I just thought of another option:

7. JR gets up and makes the snack
PROBLEM: His prints are nowhere on bowl or glass

KC

[LindaA]

Just a question: why do we assume that both the pineapple bowl and the glass with the tea bag got there at the same time? Is it not possible that the tea bag was placed in the glass just as a way of disposing of it after someone -- maybe one of the victim's advocates on the morning of the 26th -- made a cup of hot tea and didn't bother to find the trash and just put the used tea bag in the glass? Fingerprints of any Ramsey could have been placed on the bowl and the cup at any time prior to the crime, so they don't mean a whole lot. If someone -- a VA, for example -- had been washing a lot of dishes that day it is possible that her fingerprints would not have been deposited on the glass. I've always thought that the use of plastic wrap could have prevented fingerprints from being deposited on the bowl, as KC mentioned in his long post.

And finally, I don't believe the pineapple had to be "prepared " in any way. Wasn't it packed in a vacuum bag? You just zip open the bag and place it in a bowl. No cutting or trimming necessary. Sorry, no link. So I'll add IMO.

[nuisanceposter]

I know the pineapple in the bowl was fresh cut pineapple and not the canned sort. That's in ST and PMPT. That means to me that it wasn't drippy with juice, as any fresh cut pineapple I have eaten wasn't drippy with juice like the canned stuff is. I don't think it would have dripped on the table or had juice running down JB's hands. I do believe she most likely picked the pineapple chunks up with her fingers.

Meyer notes the pineapple was poorly chewed, and that indicates to me that JonBenet was probably pretty hungry when she ate it and gulped it down...as if she hadn't bothered to eat much at the Whites due to being busy and came home and realized she was very hungry. My youngest does that all the time.

I don't have a link either, but I know I saw somewhere that the pineapple had come from a bag with a ziploc-type top that said Safeway on it, as if the person who bought it might have gotten it from a buffet-style serving center in the produce section, like where you can make your own salad. That makes me think there was no preparation necessary, just dump the fruit in the bowl and hand it to the kid.

I think LindaA is most likely right about the tea bag being in a drinking glass instead of in a coffee cup - someone dropped the tea bag in there after using it instead of putting it in the trash. I wonder if there could have been testing done to ascertain how long it had been since the tea bag had been used to make tea? Why wasn't testing done to find DNA on the bowl, spoon, and glass? So many things in this case just make me want to slap people and find out why they failed to do what seems like common sense to us.

A MOO for my speculation.

[LindaA]

No, NP, I'm not talking about canned pineapple either. I'm talking about the kind that is vacuum packed in a heavy plastic bag sold in the produce section of most markets. Quite different from canned -- just like fresh unless it's been around too long. And it could have been from a salad bar, as you say, so I think we are basically in agreement on this point, as well as the tea bag. It sounds to me like something someone unfamiliar with the kitchen (like a victim's advocate or a friend) would have done. And I also agree with you about who should have been slapped up side the head.

[nuisanceposter]

Oh, I see what you mean - the bags that are packaged for sale, vacuum-sealed. They're already ready to go.

I did a search for the pineapple and Safeway bag on Google using the words "Jonbenet pineapple Safeway bag" and all I found was an old quote at WS from Blue Crab, so there's still no "solid" link...and I'm still wondering where to find the source that originally said it was in a bag labeled Safeway in the first place. BC left WS, or else I'd PM him and ask if he knows.

I just can't imagine why else a spent tea bag would be in a drinking glass. You could use that glass the brew the tea, but it would be way too hot to pick up and drink for some time....but why was the glass there in the first place? Was it tested to see if it had contained tea? If it was just used as a place to dump a used tea bag, did someone get it out for that purpose? Burke, since his prints are on it? If he did that, did he use another cup to drink the tea from? And wasn't Burke's preference for iced tea, and not hot tea?

We could line up all the people who need slapping and just run down the line with our hands out, smacking each person one after another! (Sorry, lame joke.)

[Zoey]

Oh, I see what you mean - the bags that are packaged for sale, vacuum-sealed. They're already ready to go.

I did a search for the pineapple and Safeway bag on Google using the words "Jonbenet pineapple Safeway bag" and all I found was an old quote at WS from Blue Crab, so there's still no "solid" link...and I'm still wondering where to find the source that originally said it was in a bag labeled Safeway in the first place. BC left WS, or else I'd PM him and ask if he knows.

I just can't imagine why else a spent tea bag would be in a drinking glass. You could use that glass the brew the tea, but it would be way too hot to pick up and drink for some time....but why was the glass there in the first place? Was it tested to see if it had contained tea? If it was just used as a place to dump a used tea bag, did someone get it out for that purpose? Burke, since his prints are on it? If he did that, did he use another cup to drink the tea from? And wasn't Burke's preference for iced tea, and not hot tea?

We could line up all the people who need slapping and just run down the line with our hands out, smacking each person one after another! (Sorry, lame joke.)

When I first signed on to this forum, one of the first things I read was someone on this forum posting that the pineapple had been bought at Safeway, as there was a Safeway bag found in the garbage (?). I will do some back pedeling and see if I can find who and where it was posted.

[KingCoyote]

Great Idea Linda: There really isn't anything to indicate the bowl and the glass were put there at the same time other than the picture, after the fact, that they are in the same place at the same time. Good thinking.

KC

[LindaA]

I don't know where I first heard details about the pineapple either. And what, exactly was meant by a "Safeway bag"? Could it have been a regular bag in which all groceries are bagged or was it something especially for the salad bar? The salad bars I've seen furnish aluminum botttoms and clear plastics tops or those foam containers. I don't think I've seen plastic bags for that purpose, but I've never seen the salad bars in Boulder.

Since the question of the tea bag and the pineapple didn't come up for some time ( I heard this on Schilloer's program the other night) when someone noticed it in a picture, I have my doubts about any testing being done. I hope I'm wrong.

As for Burke, I guess he might have touched it before he was taken to the White's (?) house for the day. I seem to remember that he was taken straight from bed, where, he later admitted, he was playing 'possum. Anyone know?

NP, you stand on one side and I on the other and the offending parties could run the gauntlet between us. That way we can get them on both cheeks at one time. Even lamer joke.

[elvislives]

Let me toss out a few ideas about this pineapple "snack" JBR had in her system. I have tried to wind it into a whole sequence of events that may or may not make sense.

First, the pineapple arrives with a guest at the 12/23 party. Toward the end of the night the guest wants to leave the pineapple at the Ramseys. The guest sees the Ramseys bowl being washed and dried by another guest (leaving no fingerprints of the guest) and decides to pour the leftover pineapple into the Ramsey Bowl. The guest then takes some plastic wrap and puts it over the bowl and picks up the bowl in such a fashion as to not leave her prints on it and puts it in the huge refrigerator the R's have. (Later when the guests are questioned about that party they dummy up because they don't want to get anymore involved than they were by just being there.)

Christmas morning Patsy moves the bowl around in the refrigerator when she is making breakfast and leaves her fingerprints on the bowl. Christmas afternoon, "growing boy" Burke wants a snack because it is a long way from Christmas breakfast to the Whites party when he can eat again. He goes to the refrigerator, takes out the bowl, removes the plastic wrap which bunches up due to sticky pineapple juice on it, and he tosses the plastic wrap. He then grabs a glass which he can reach to make him some iced tea, which he likes according to PR's 1998 interview, but Burke has no idea how to make iced tea and improvises which makes the glass and teabag the evidence it is. Burke leaves the pineapple on the table on the afternoon of Christmas and it sits there unnoticed by all. Burke will claim no knowledge of the pineapple as well because he wants no involvement in the huge confusion going on that morning. He sticks to himself.

Ok...now it is about 10:30 PM. Patsy and John are nodding off.. or maybe not. Unusually (anything is possible in this case) JBR wakes up and remembers that tonight is the night of the Secret Santa Visit. This has been inadvertently planted in her mind by Patsy saying: 'This year you will get an extraspecial visit from Santa this Christmas.' Patsy is thinking of the My Twinn Doll she expects to be the hit of Christmas morning. JBR, being the six year old with the average six year old imagination, hears PR's statement this way: You will get a special, extra visit from Santa on Christmas (not Christmas Eve when most believe Santa comes, but Christmas.)

JBR now goes to the bathroom and forgets to flush.(SEE PR 98 Interview Page 273) (Also note that it is only 10:30 or so which leaves a couple of hours for urine to accumulate and be released when she is killed.) (Further note that PR has stated that she can't hear JBR's toilet flush because it is on the opposite side of the house. Sorry, can't find the cite right now....I am winging it.) Even JBR realizes her panties smell and need to be changed. She tosses the stained/soiled panties on the floor of the bathroom ( SEE PR 1998 Interview Page 456) When opening the panty drawer in the bathroom she decides she likes the new colored Bloomies which are the wrong size. But the Bloomies have a plastic loop which must be cut open to get into the package. (I found out about the plastic loop in Websleuths Forum Postings by Jayelle as to the "Big Bloomies which I consider recommended reading.) JBR needs a knife. She also sees her hair ties which are in the bathroom drawers and grabs a handful as she wants to pretty herself for Santa. (SEE discussion of hairties by LPH in PMPT727 and PR 98 Interview P.257-263. She needs a knife to cut the panty package open and she goes to where she knows someone left one. To the counter where the kitchen knife she may, herself, have used with her bead making kit or potholder loom set in her bedroom that she and friends may have been playing with that afternoon.(SEE PR 98 Interview 334 for Knife discussion.)

JBR ties an extra hairtie/ribbon or two or three into her hair and maybe even ties a scarf loosely around her neck to look pretty for Santa. Maybe she even puts on one of her Tiaras, I don't know...I am on a roll...

JBR goes down the front stairs as a direct path to the Living room where the tree is and she expects to get her special gift or whatever. She waits for a short while and gets bored. She wanders to the breakfast room and sees the bowl on the table. She gets up on a chair and reaches into the bowl when she realizes it is pineapple, one of her favorite food, plucks out one or two pieces without touching the bowl and goes back to the living room. She continues her vigil for the special visit by playing with toys from Christmas. She gets impatient and decides to go looking for the gifts. She knows that some gifts are hidden in the wine celllar. (PR 98 Interview 349/390) Kids just seem to know where gifts can be hidden.

She goes to the sink area drawers next to the spiral staircase where she knows a flashlight is kept. She will need it in a dark basement where the lights switches may be a little foreign to her since it is Burke who usually plays in the train room. As a child will do she leaves the drawer with the flashlight open. (See PR 98 Interview P 510) She proceeds down the basement steps, all adorned so pretty for Santa.

Unfortunately she will soon be confronted by.......drumroll please.....the Killer.... [the circumstances which led to the killer being in the basement is the subject of another post sequencing the events of the killer...coming soon to a thread near you]. The killer comes up from behind JBR and....

Oh....I'm sorry....I just wanted to explain the pineapple and got carried away to the point of explaining how all of this may, I repeat, may have happened when you actually sequence all evidence into logical database flows using Activities and Events which make up Phases and Stages of a Crime. I don't want to get off thread...

Yes I am beiing a snot right now.....sorry :tongue:

LOL

KingCoyote

Okay I haven't had time to read many posts lately but this one definitely gets an enthusiastic thumbs up!!

[honibugs]

Can anyone advise me where the washer and dryer was located in the Ramsey home? I want to see whether the white blanket could have been taken from a dryer in the basement or whether the blanket was taken off of JonBenet's bed.

[Zoey]

Can anyone advise me where the washer and dryer was located in the Ramsey home? I want to see whether the white blanket could have been taken from a dryer in the basement or whether the blanket was taken off of JonBenet's bed.


Stackable washer and dryer located right outside JB's room. Larger washer and dryer located in the basement.


http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/floors.htm

[shill]

I was under the impression the tea bag was never used.
Regardless, there is the little paper tag with a string to the tea bag isn't there? That little tag should have fingerprints, unless a gloved hand was used.

I thought the photos of the PA bowl had liquid in it, but I don't know.

[LindaA]

Shill, the impression I had from the photo is that the tea bag had been used. JMO, though, as far as I know.

[KingCoyote]

Thanks elvis....

KC

[Zoey]

Shill, the impression I had from the photo is that the tea bag had been used. JMO, though, as far as I know.


I think this might be a pretty good picture of the bowl and glass for you Shill.

http://s79.photobucket.com/albums/j149/whynut/?action=view&current=bowl.jpg

[bullmoose]

Does anybody know what kind of teabag that was in the glass? Was it an herb tea or a regular, black or orange pekoe type of tea. The name is usually on the paper tag, but in the picture it is turned the other way. Does anybody got a clue?:confused:

[Zoey]

Does anybody know what kind of teabag that was in the glass? Was it an herb tea or a regular, black or orange pekoe type of tea. The name is usually on the paper tag, but in the picture it is turned the other way. Does anybody got a clue?:confused:

Let me look around. I think I may have a better picture of the glass and the tea bag. Seems like I remember one that shows the glass closer to the picture.

Good, I was able to edit before my time ran out! This is the picture I was thinking of, but this is of no help I don't think.

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j149/whynut/2006-06-29_schiller13.jpg

[LindaA]

The lst one youposted is the picture I saw. While I haven't a clue what kind of tea it is, I can see why I tihnk the bag had been used. Don't you guys think so?

[andU]

The lst one youposted is the picture I saw. While I haven't a clue what kind of tea it is, I can see why I tihnk the bag had been used. Don't you guys think so?

Yepper, it looks wet or like it had been wet. No tag apparent, though.

[LindaA]

Sorry for all the typos in my last. I should never post before breakfast!

I see the tag, but not what's printed on it.

[nuisanceposter]

I really wish they'd let us edit beyond a five minute window. Don't worry, Linda, we all make some typos here and there. It didn't affect the content of your post. And your joke about running the slapfest gauntlet was pretty funny.

I wonder if that label on the tea bag still looks the same today as it did ten years ago? Maybe we could find a match and determine what kind it is.

[KingCoyote]

NP:

I stopped posting to "Edit" stage so quickly and started scrolling back up in my original typings to give me more time to catch errors. That 5 minutes just isn't enough.

KC

[Louisadelmar]

[...]
Meyer notes the pineapple was poorly chewed, and that indicates to me that JonBenet was probably pretty hungry when she ate it and gulped it down...as if she hadn't bothered to eat much at the Whites due to being busy and came home and realized she was very hungry. My youngest does that all the time.

[...].

NP
Could you show me where Meyer says it was poorly chewed? Was it in an interview? I couldn't find it in the autopsy.
Thx

[nuisanceposter]

NP
Could you show me where Meyer says it was poorly chewed? Was it in an interview? I couldn't find it in the autopsy.
Thx

PMPT, hb, page 433, middle of the page:

"In the Ramseys' dining room, just steps away from the kitchen, the police had found a bowl with fresh pineapple in it. Meyer noted in his report that the pineapple in JonBenet's small intestine was in near-perfect condition - it had sharp edges and looked as if it had been recently eaten and poorly chewed."

[Louisadelmar]

PMPT, hb, page 433, middle of the page:

"In the Ramseys' dining room, just steps away from the kitchen, the police had found a bowl with fresh pineapple in it. Meyer noted in his report that the pineapple in JonBenet's small intestine was in near-perfect condition - it had sharp edges and looked as if it had been recently eaten and poorly chewed."

Thanks. So there is nothing actually from Meyer and we have an interesting conflict between your hb edition and my ppbk edition. Using the index for Meyer (unless I missed it) I can't find your quote. But I DID find on p 156 the following:

The small intestine contained fragments of a yellow to light-greenish-tan material, apparently remnants of a fruit or vegtable - possibly pineapple.

I wonder if this could be one of the corrections Schiller made when the ppbk edition came out.

Thomas says ppbk, p. 46: "Chunks of pineapple"

But Meyer says in the autopsy: (emphasis mine)
The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple.

Somewhere I remember reading it was Arndt who suggested pineapple at the autopsy. I'll have to look for it. Baden mentioned in an unrelated book that pineapple is one of the things that retains its smell and can sometimes be identified by smell during an autopsy. I have great respect for Arndt's nose.

I do wish Kane and Wood had gotten that GJ transcript released.

[Kor]

So did they threw away that “pineapple” without doing forensic on it to see if it actually a pineapple? Or they did, but haven’t announced what exactly it is to the public yet?

[bullmoose]

The reason I asked about the teabag is that if it was an herbal tea, it would be caffeine free, regular tea would have caffeine in it; IMO either one would be very poor-tasting to a child, tea is an acquired taste. The bag does look used; one way to make tea in a glass such as shown would be to use hot tapwater; it doesn't work like boiling water, but will make a quick cup. again, its not something a child would ordinarily do, especially with a fridge right there, it would be nearly tasteless.

[LindaA]

But wouldn't the glass be too hot to comfortably hold to drink out of?

[Louisadelmar]

Yes. Unless it was one of those Austrian teaglasses that has a little metal holder with a handle so you don't touch the glass itself.

[bullmoose]

You must have the thermostat on your hotwater heater set higher than mine; if you put the hot tap water in with the teabag-- about 140 degrees at most at my house, and let it steep for a couple of minutes, the temperature cools down sufficiently to hold the glass while drinking. In fact, if your fingers are cold, you can pretty much hold it immediately, or with a paper napkin.

[LindaA]

I never make tea with tapwater. To make it properly, the water must be boiling. I didn't realize people did it that way.

[Louisadelmar]

Not to get us too far off track but you should carry the kettle over to the pot so the water has a chance to get ever so slightly below boiling. Of course you have to have previously rinsed the pot out with hot water before you put the tea in so the water doesn't cool too quickly once you pour it in the pot.

I drink coffee myself. It's a lot easier.

[LindaA]

Louisa, you are absolutely right. My husband makes us a pot of tea every week-end morning and that's exactly what he does. I still think the glass would have been too hot to handle comfortably.

[Louisadelmar]

Louisa, you are absolutely right. My husband makes us a pot of tea every week-end morning and that's exactly what he does. I still think the glass would have been too hot to handle comfortably.

And as Patsy said in 1998
2 TRIP DeMUTH: You don't make tea in a
3 glass?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No, it would break the
5 glass.

[bullmoose]

Making a cup of tea with hot tapwater is the kind of thing a child would do; whose prints were on that cup? That is why I am curious what kind of tea it was. But it is also the way a person wanting to make tea without heating water properly would do it, such as an intruder might.

[thewhitewitch1]

Making a cup of tea with hot tapwater is the kind of thing a child would do; whose prints were on that cup? That is why I am curious what kind of tea it was. But it is also the way a person wanting to make tea without heating water properly would do it, such as an intruder might.


Burkes prints were on the glass. Why would an intruder want to make tea at all?? :shrug:

[bullmoose]

An intruder might make himself? a quick cup of tea for the caffeine, if the bag was for regular tea. The intruder would seemingly have to have wearing gloves to not leave aprint as a glass takes prints well. Thats why I am curious about the kind of teabag it was; a child, I would think, would be extremely unlikely to make a cup of regular tea in the middle of the night. But a cup of sleepytime herb tea? Much more likely. Just a thought.

[Zoey]

An intruder might make himself? a quick cup of tea for the caffeine, if the bag was for regular tea. The intruder would seemingly have to have wearing gloves to not leave aprint as a glass takes prints well. Thats why I am curious about the kind of teabag it was; a child, I would think, would be extremely unlikely to make a cup of regular tea in the middle of the night. But a cup of sleepytime herb tea? Much more likely. Just a thought.


I am not sure I go for Burke making himself hot tea. Him having come from a southern family, they would drink cold, sweet tea, not hot tea. Could Burke have gotten himself a drink of water before going to bed after coming home from the Whites and just set the glass down? When the LE and advocates were eating in the kitchen, someone had hot tea, and set the tea bag in the glass, which happened to be handy, thereby the only prints on the glass would be Burke's?

[bullmoose]

Along with that open door spotted by a neighbor at about 8AM, the explanation for the the teabag possibly being LE caused makes real sense to me as a good alternative explanation. If you make a cup of tea with a bag, you put it on the saucer before you drink the tea. If no saucer is handy, put in an empty cup or glass. It was too obvious for me to think of, but makes sense.

[shill]

I am not sure I go for Burke making himself hot tea. Him having come from a southern family, they would drink cold, sweet tea, not hot tea. Could Burke have gotten himself a drink of water before going to bed after coming home from the Whites and just set the glass down? When the LE and advocates were eating in the kitchen, someone had hot tea, and set the tea bag in the glass, which happened to be handy, thereby the only prints on the glass would be Burke's?

Thanks for the photos Zoey, and everyone’s inputs. I have become convinced that Burke is the one responsible for the tea, and probably the pineapple.
The glass is indeed the type of glass that you would choose for sweet tea. It was mentioned that Burke liked ice tea, I don't know if this is a fact, but I'm taking it as so. The tea bag does look used, and boiling hot water would be burning hot to the hand in a glass like the one used because it lacks insulation and a handle to hold on to.
The pineapple and tea setting lacks any etiquette of how these items would normally be served, but appear more like the work of a child who didn't have an understanding of etiquette or tea brewing. I would guess that Burke just added cold tap water to a glass and put the tea bag in and then drank it. This would account for a used tea bag in a glass more suited for pre-made ice tea.
With only Burkes fingerprints on that glass, I think that is strong evidence that he is the source of the glass and pineapple.
I would theorize that this may have been a big stumbling block for the Grand Jury.

[SnarkyCow]

Thanks for the photos Zoey, and everyone’s inputs. I have become convinced that Burke is the one responsible for the tea, and probably the pineapple.
The glass is indeed the type of glass that you would choose for sweet tea. It was mentioned that Burke liked ice tea, I don't know if this is a fact, but I'm taking it as so. The tea bag does look used, and boiling hot water would be burning hot to the hand in a glass like the one used because it lacks insulation and a handle to hold on to.
The pineapple and tea setting lacks any etiquette of how these items would normally be served, but appear more like the work of a child who didn't have an understanding of etiquette or tea brewing. I would guess that Burke just added cold tap water to a glass and put the tea bag in and then drank it. This would account for a used tea bag in a glass more suited for pre-made ice tea.
With only Burkes fingerprints on that glass, I think that is strong evidence that he is the source of the glass and pineapple.
I would theorize that this may have been a big stumbling block for the Grand Jury.

Good points, but I have to ask: If there was more info regarding the pineapple & tea bag - like an innocent explanation of Burke getting up and fixing it for himself & JB - wouldn't that info have been released? The only reason I ask is because the pineapple is incriminating to the Ramseys for a couple reasons:

1. Who would believe an intruder would take the time to feed JB pineapple and risk getting caught, making noise, etc.?

2. If the Ramseys fed her pineapple, after they arrived home from the Whites, it proves they lied about her being asleep (which would make everyone wonder what else they lied about).

I would think Team Ramsey would want the air cleared regarding the pineapple - especially if they could explain it away with proof that Burke is the one who fixed it & fed it to JB. Wouldn't they want it known that Patsy & John had no idea about the pineapple because Burke & JonBenet sneaked around at night quietly? I think that knowledge would only help the Ramseys' case. -- It is my opinion this has not been mentioned because it cannot be proven true.

Also, if Burke & JB were awake while their parents were asleep, fixed pineapple, ate it, and partially digested it before JonBenet's murder wouldn't that mean that the time frame in which the murder happened would be smaller - wouldn't an intruder feel rushed? Too rushed to write a note & to stage a crime so elaborately?

If this "Burke served the pineapple" theory is true, and at the same time it is true an intruder was waiting in the house, are we to believe the intruder would sit there, watch them eat pineapple, watch Burke drink tea and wait for them to go upstairs? Would an intruder be so confident as to believe that both Burke & JB fell asleep right away after their late-night snack so that he could safely carry out his plan without being caught?

This pineapple thing doesn't add up to me. Shill, I do agree with your signature line The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. In my opinion the simplest explanation is that the Ramseys lied about JB being asleep when they got home. I believe Patsy fixed the pineapple as her prints were on the bowl. I do not believe an intruder would have taken the time to serve JonBenet pineapple before committing the crime.

As I've said before: In her 1998 interview Patsy seemed startled by the news of the pineapple - I don't think she ever gave it a thought before that time that it could come back and haunt her.

Cheers,

Snarky

PS. Forgive me if I went in circles there - I am thinking out loud & hope what I'm trying to say makes sense. :)

[Louisadelmar]

Could you show me where she seemed startled?


It seems to me BPD must have asked Burke about the pineapple and tea and not gotten an explanation that solved the question.

Regarding whether they would have eaten pineapple as a snack, Patsy said this in 1998:
7 TOM HANEY: Did she like pineapple?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: She liked it.
9 TOM HANEY: Did she eat it as a snack?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, we had so many other
11 things that she had for a snack first, you know, before
12 she got pineapple. But she wouldn't do this. She
13 would not have a bowl like this with a big huge spoon
14 like that.
15 TOM HANEY: Would you do that?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Would --
18 PATSY RAMSEY: That is weird.
19 TOM HANEY: Would John do that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TOM HANEY: How about Burke?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He has a sweet tooth. He
23 doesn't like fruit too much. He likes pineapple a
24 little bit, strawberries a little bit, but he would not
25 pour himself a big bowl of pineapple.
0478
1 TOM HANEY: If he got up in the middle of the
2 night would he eat something like that?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He would eat something
4 chocolate.

If they had guilty knowledge and/or wanted an easy out I would think Patsy would just say "It's possible Burke got up and ate pineapple with JonBenet."

[SnarkyCow]

Could you show me where she seemed startled?

That she seemed startled is, of course, my opinion. I didn't state it as fact, but here is the part of the interview I am basing my opinion on:

PATSY RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge, unless
17 she -- you know, I can't remember what was served over
18 at the White's. Does anybody know? Except there was
19 crab. I remember crab.
20 TOM HANEY: That seems to be the only thing
21 you recall that she ate.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
23 Did you fingerprint that?
24 TOM HANEY: Yes.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Did it show anything?
0480
1 TOM HANEY: Well, what would that tell you,
2 somebody's fingerprints were on it.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, if they weren't mine, if
4 they were not John's, maybe somebody fed her pineapple.
5 TOM HANEY: What if those fingerprints
6 belonged to one of the two of you?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know.
8 TOM HANEY: Well, wait a minute. You started
9 that line.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't put the bowl there,
11 okay. I did not put the bowl there. I would not do
12 this, set it.
13 TOM HANEY: Let's go back to your line of
14 reasoning here. If they were not -- now talk to me.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
16 TOM HANEY: Look at me. If they are not
17 yours and they are not John's, then they would be
18 somebody else's.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
20 TOM HANEY: But now I am telling you they are
21 not somebody else's. Those prints belong to one of the
22 two of you.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: They do? You are sure? Well,
24 I don't know. I did not put that there. No.
25 TOM HANEY: Now, so could we just slough it
0481
1 off like that, because --
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know how else to -- I
3 mean, I would not do this set like this. JonBenet
4 could not reach a bowl that size.
5 TOM HANEY: Wait. Talk to me. Your line of
6 reasoning, and this was your logic a couple sentences
7 ago, they are not yours, they are not John's, then they
8 are somebody else's, whoever put it there. I'm telling
9 you that it isn't somebody else's.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well --
11 TOM HANEY: You know sometimes the simplest,
12 most obscure little thing could be so significant.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I did not feed
14 JonBenet pineapple, so I don't know how it got in her
15 stomach. I don't know where this bowl of pineapple
16 came from. I can't recall putting that there. I can
17 never recall putting a tea bag like that in a cup, so I
18 don't know. I don't know the answer.


PS. Maybe "rattled" is a better word than "startled"

[LindaA]

Snarks, I really don't think we can draw any conclusion as to her state of mind without actually hearing this interview. In my "mind's eye" I see a kind of, "I don't know how it got there, so I can't explain it" attitude, but that's just my opinion. It would have ben so easy for her to say that Burke had probably fed it to JBR that afternoon and be done with it. I think she was telling the truth. IMO, JMO, IMHO.

[Zoey]

Was there not some kind of liquid in with the pineapple? I was thinking maybe cream, as this is what it looks like in the picture. Was there a can of cream or condensed milk in the Ramsey fridge? Could test not have been run on the liquid in the pineapple to see if it had begun to sour, and hence giving a timeframe on how long it may have been left out?

[andU]

if it was sour, it would also depend on how long it had been in the fridge... good point, though. Actually, I don't recall seeing any cream ... anyone?

[Zoey]

You know, I look and look and look some more at that picture of the bowl with the "pineapple" in it, and to be honest, I don't see pineapple. I see what looks like a fruit salad. Cream, bananas, oranges and what looks like maybe a blueberry. Perhaps I have not done enough reseach on this, but is there a report or something that says the contents of that bowl are most definately pineapple? Would someone be so kind as to steer me in the right direction?:confused:

[SnarkyCow]

Snarks, I really don't think we can draw any conclusion as to her state of mind without actually hearing this interview. In my "mind's eye" I see a kind of, "I don't know how it got there, so I can't explain it" attitude, but that's just my opinion. It would have ben so easy for her to say that Burke had probably fed it to JBR that afternoon and be done with it. I think she was telling the truth. IMO, JMO, IMHO.

We cannot draw firm conclusions, certainly. All of my posts are my opinion only. I believe, from her answers (and I know I can't tell tone of voice, etc. from reading a transcript) that this line of questioning rattled her. She seemed surprised to find out that her or John's prints are on the bowl:

20 TOM HANEY: But now I am telling you they are
21 not somebody else's. Those prints belong to one of the
22 two of you.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: They do? You are sure? Well,
24 I don't know. I did not put that there. No.

I would never say she was definitely startled or rattled or what-have-you, but it is how I read it. Just my opinion.

[bullmoose]

The word I would use to describe Patsy's reaction to her print being on the bowl, just reading the transcript, is bemused, although startled is okay with me. I get the impression that she was trying to imagine when she had last touched that bowl; that her fingerprint/s were on it is not hard to imagine, it being her kitchen. But she is definite that she did not put the pineapple in it or put it out. Again, if somebody else did, then the type of teabag might be significant; if an adult that night put it there.

[LindaA]

IF the bowl and the glass with the tea bag were placed that at the same time.

I could see the bowl being there all along, having been left out by the children before going to the White's party and the glass with the tea bag being left there by someone who was in the house the 26th who made a cup of tea and didn't know where to dispose of the tea bag.

I don't see an intruder making himself a cup of tea in the midst of murdering JBR.

[Louisadelmar]

You know, I look and look and look some more at that picture of the bowl with the "pineapple" in it, and to be honest, I don't see pineapple. I see what looks like a fruit salad. Cream, bananas, oranges and what looks like maybe a blueberry. Perhaps I have not done enough reseach on this, but is there a report or something that says the contents of that bowl are most definately pineapple? Would someone be so kind as to steer me in the right direction?:confused:

I agree it looks like some kind of fruit in cream. But since investigators on both sides agree it is pineapple I've always written my impression off. Perhaps because the picture is a screen capture of a photo and not the original photo the reflections etc give the impression of milk/cream

[LindaA]

If you had pineapple stored in a bowl along with cream, wouldn't the cream curdle or sour very quickly?

But, yes, it does look like a mixed fruit salad with some white liquid. I wonder how long the bowll had been sitting on the table when the pictures were taken.

[shill]

I think JB woke up at midnight to pee, as it had become routine, was hungry and remembered the bowl of pineapple Burke got out for her before they left for the party and went down stairs and grabbed a piece of pineapple with her fingers and ate it.
So she would have been killed around 2am or later.
The killer would have no knowledge of her eating pineapple or reason to feed her pineapple.
The killer may not have expected the Ramseys to be up that early, and the entire crime may have involved about an hours time to do everything.

[LindaA]

Sorry I somehow skipped over the posts discussing whether the cream would have soured.

Shill, your last post makes sense to me.

[thewhitewitch1]

I think JB woke up at midnight to pee, as it had become routine, was hungry and remembered the bowl of pineapple Burke got out for her before they left for the party and went down stairs and grabbed a piece of pineapple with her fingers and ate it.
So she would have been killed around 2am or later.
The killer would have no knowledge of her eating pineapple or reason to feed her pineapple.
The killer may not have expected the Ramseys to be up that early, and the entire crime may have involved about an hours time to do everything.


The flaw here is that JB did not have a "routine" to get up to pee. Patsy had to wake her up or else she would wet the bed. I guess you could assume that only on that one night she actually woke herself up to "pee", but I think that's stretching it. Patsy was even going to take some of those "Pull-ups" with her on the Big Red Boat so she wouldn't ruin the mattress if she had an accident. That should tell you how much of a "routine" JB had about getting herself up to "pee".
If Burke put the bowl of pineapple on the table prior to the Whites party, why didn't Patsy or John see it there? Why do they deny even having pineapple in the house? Why wouldn't Burke have just told them he put it there at that time when asked later? Why is the pineapple such a big secret if its presence is so "innocent"?

Also, if this intruder "didn't know" how early they were going to get up in the morning, how and why would he know about the alarm and the dog not being in the house. It appears that for everything else, he was "all knowing".

[shill]

The flaw here is that JB did not have a "routine" to get up to pee. Patsy had to wake her up or else she would wet the bed. I guess you could assume that only on that one night she actually woke herself up to "pee", but I think that's stretching it. Patsy was even going to take some of those "Pull-ups" with her on the Big Red Boat so she wouldn't ruin the mattress if she had an accident. That should tell you how much of a "routine" JB had about getting herself up to "pee".People get up by alarm clocks routinely everyday. Sometimes the alarm clock doesn't go off, but they still get up at almost the same time. Humans have a built in alarm clock. Patsy wakes JB, she gets up. This becomes a routine. Patsy doesn't wake JB, she will still get up. But first Patsy has to miss the wake up routine for this to be noted.

If Burke put the bowl of pineapple on the table prior to the Whites party, why didn't Patsy or John see it there? Why do they deny even having pineapple in the house? Why wouldn't Burke have just told them he put it there at that time when asked later? Why is the pineapple such a big secret if its presence is so "innocent"?They had gifts to get ready to hand out after they left the party. They had to get JB and Burke, along with themselves ready for the party. And they had to get set for the trip the next day. Busy, busy, busy. Burke could of said he was hungry and Patsy could have told him to, "just get yourself something to eat, I'm busy". Burke found the leftover fruit that someone left at the 23rd party that was stored in the fridge by the hired help. In a hurry, Patsy gathered the gifts and her family and out the door they went to the party without noticing the bowl.
Burke's testimony to the Grand Jury is sealed, it may not be a big secret to the GJ. But trying to sweat out a confession from the Ramseys, it helps if you put on the pressure. Pineapple, crotch fiber evidence, confess!

Also, if this intruder "didn't know" how early they were going to get up in the morning, how and why would he know about the alarm and the dog not being in the house. It appears that for everything else, he was "all knowing".Lot's of people knew about the alarm. And lots of people knew about the dog from the party on the 23rd.
Do the Ramseys get up at 5:30am everyday? If no, then few would know they were getting up at 5:30am, especially the day after Christmas.

[Athena]

Hi everyone. Hope the New Year is treating you all well. :)

Patsy claims the Ramseys did not feed JBR pineapple and she could not recall buying pineapple recently. In addition to this, according to the recent CTV documentary, Patsy had wiped the counter clean and did not see a bowl of pineapple.

On page 12 of PMPT, Schiller writes that the victims' advocates; Jedamus and Morlock left the house and came back with bagels and fruit. He does not elaborate any further. Is it possible these two women put pineapple in a bowl and pulled out the serving spoon and put it in the bowl? Is it also possible that their fingerprints were not found on the bowl because presumedly they would have washed their hands prior to serving food which would have eliminated any oils from their hands required to deposit fingerprints? To my recollection, I have never seen anything that indicates they were questioned as to what type of fruit they brought back.

Autopsy reports are done with input from facts of the crime scene. Is it also possible that Meyers knowing pineapple was found just linked it to the contents in JBR's stomach/intestines and that is why he used the words "which may represent fragments of pineapple." ?

[Athena]

I also cannot imagine anyone eating pineapple rind. Even accidentally placed in the mouth it has a bitter taste and most people would expel it rather than try to digest it. But anyway -- I also found this article which indicates to me that during the commission of crimes people are force-fed as part of framing and to appear in a forensics article and even though cited as rare -- it is possible:

The digestive system and gut contents of a victim can provide important clues to the time of death of a victim. Chewed food will firstly pass through the oesophagus and then down into the stomach within seconds of the initial swallowing. After 3 hours, the food then leaves the stomach and heads toward the small intestines. 6 hours after eating a meal, the food will have traveled half way through the small intestines and begin moving through the large intestine. Where the victim's small intestine is empty, it suggests that the victim ate his or her last meal approximately 8 hours before death. The digestive process usually takes a bit more than a day, but it can be affected by sickness, liquid intake, fear or drug intake.
Pathologists also briefly note that correct level of food digestion corresponds to its location in the digestive system. In the rare case that a clever murderer wishes to delude investigators by attempting to bring forward the time of the victim's last meal (giving them an explanation for where they were at the victim's time of death), he/she may manually feed processed food (resembling that of chewed food) into the victim's stomach. If this is so, the food collected in the stomach will be much less digested than normal, since the periodic motion of the stomach stops after death. The food may indeed appear slightly broken down, due to the presence of the stomach acids, but any abennormalities are otherwise detectable. In older people or in those affected by the effects mentioned earlier (sickness, fear, drug/liquid intake), the efficiency of food digestion alters and it is left to pathologists to determine if the extent of the undigested food is great enough to suggest the mentioned scenario.

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm

[thewhitewitch1]

I also cannot imagine anyone eating pineapple rind. Even accidentally placed in the mouth it has a bitter taste and most people would expel it rather than try to digest it. But anyway -- I also found this article which indicates to me that during the commission of crimes people are force-fed as part of framing and to appear in a forensics article and even though cited as rare -- it is possible:

The digestive system and gut contents of a victim can provide important clues to the time of death of a victim. Chewed food will firstly pass through the oesophagus and then down into the stomach within seconds of the initial swallowing. After 3 hours, the food then leaves the stomach and heads toward the small intestines. 6 hours after eating a meal, the food will have traveled half way through the small intestines and begin moving through the large intestine. Where the victim's small intestine is empty, it suggests that the victim ate his or her last meal approximately 8 hours before death. The digestive process usually takes a bit more than a day, but it can be affected by sickness, liquid intake, fear or drug intake.
Pathologists also briefly note that correct level of food digestion corresponds to its location in the digestive system. In the rare case that a clever murderer wishes to delude investigators by attempting to bring forward the time of the victim's last meal (giving them an explanation for where they were at the victim's time of death), he/she may manually feed processed food (resembling that of chewed food) into the victim's stomach. If this is so, the food collected in the stomach will be much less digested than normal, since the periodic motion of the stomach stops after death. The food may indeed appear slightly broken down, due to the presence of the stomach acids, but any abennormalities are otherwise detectable. In older people or in those affected by the effects mentioned earlier (sickness, fear, drug/liquid intake), the efficiency of food digestion alters and it is left to pathologists to determine if the extent of the undigested food is great enough to suggest the mentioned scenario.

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm

If someone was trying to force-feed pineapple to JB, you would think that would cause a struggle and make some noise. I don't think an "intruder" would risk that, do you?
I can't imagine that the victims advocates, as well as everyone at the Whites party and at the Ramseys party were not asked about the pineapple. I'm sure the LE tried to trace the source. Well, I would hope, anyway.

[Zoey]

If someone was trying to force-feed pineapple to JB, you would think that would cause a struggle and make some noise. I don't think an "intruder" would risk that, do you?
I can't imagine that the victims advocates, as well as everyone at the Whites party and at the Ramseys party were not asked about the pineapple. I'm sure the LE tried to trace the source. Well, I would hope, anyway.

Yes, you would hope they were asked, but I am willing to bet they did not. Why try to find the source when they already had in their minds who the killer (s) were? IMO, I don't think it mattered to them at all where it came from. The fact that it was there was all that was important to them.

[bullmoose]

:beer: I totally agree with you, Zoey. The BPD already had the case solved; everything else was just an unimportant detail. Again, the square peg in the round hole.:biggrin:

[Athena]

If someone was trying to force-feed pineapple to JB, you would think that would cause a struggle and make some noise. I don't think an "intruder" would risk that, do you?
I can't imagine that the victims advocates, as well as everyone at the Whites party and at the Ramseys party were not asked about the pineapple. I'm sure the LE tried to trace the source. Well, I would hope, anyway.

Hmmm -- cause a struggle and possibly get hit in the head as a result?

The BPD was incompetent in many areas -- would not be surprised if this weren't investigated further since they thought the pineapple was given to JBR by someone in the family -- considered slam, dunk. The only one I know for sure that was asked was FW and he said he did not recall. We just don't know and I can imagine not many people were asked. I would also imagine those that were wouldn't admit it anyway or say as FW did "I don't recall".

[Eagle1]

I noticed something white in the first picture of the pineapple and thought of powdered sugar, or that it was just light. When someone suggested cream, I didn't go back to the picture, but I think the white was on top of a chunk.

Another thing, didn't Smit say there was a tupperware container in JonBenet's room that had contained pineapple? (Probably they could tell by the smell?) He didn't mention cream or anything except plain pineapple.

I'll go along with the person suggesting Burke got out the pineapple that afternoon, leaving it out until after the Whites', and JonBenet had spoiled her appetite with it, didn't eat much if anything at the Whites', then ate some more some time that night which wasn't chewed. I forget the hat but this person writes well, a good story. I never heard of anyone putting either powdered sugar or cream on pineapple but it looks like something's on it.

[KingCoyote]

Eagle1:

My notes show a discussion in the 1998 Pasty Ramsey Interview that the "tupperware" container most likely held beads from a beadmaking kit that JBR owned. Some of them may have been yellow in color. I don't have a page number but the Crime Scene Photos were numbers JBR and JBR2. I also believe Crime Scene Photo 55 was involved in that discussion. Sorry that I don't have the exact page number.

That is the closest I can come to resolving the pineapple in the tupperware container. To be honest with you it sounds like the BPD did not even take the container into evidence or they would have known if it was pineapple or fuzzy yellow colored beads. I really get the feeling from the interviews and the search warrants that a lot of things that could have been taken into evidence were not. I have heard that there were 1058 pieces of evidence taken in and some 4000+ fibers to sort through.

KingCoyote

[Athena]

I noticed something white in the first picture of the pineapple and thought of powdered sugar, or that it was just light. When someone suggested cream, I didn't go back to the picture, but I think the white was on top of a chunk.

Another thing, didn't Smit say there was a tupperware container in JonBenet's room that had contained pineapple? (Probably they could tell by the smell?) He didn't mention cream or anything except plain pineapple.

I'll go along with the person suggesting Burke got out the pineapple that afternoon, leaving it out until after the Whites', and JonBenet had spoiled her appetite with it, didn't eat much if anything at the Whites', then ate some more some time that night which wasn't chewed. I forget the hat but this person writes well, a good story. I never heard of anyone putting either powdered sugar or cream on pineapple but it looks like something's on it.

There's a fruit salad called "ambrosia" that is made with marshmellow. This is what it looks like to me.

[Zoey]

There's a fruit salad called "ambrosia" that is made with marshmellow. This is what it looks like to me.


Doesn't ambrosia also have coconut? Wasn't coconut thought to have been in that same kind of bowl when the kids were decorating the gingerbread houses? Not that this makes any difference, just an observation.

I just don't think the infamous bowl of pineapple was a bowl of pineapple. I think it was some kind of fruit salad. Only my opinion, of course.

[LindaA]

The recipe for ambrosia I am familiar with called for mandarin orange sections, pineapple chunks, mminiature marshmallows, sour cream, and coconut. You can add maraschino cherries as well. The sour cream and fruit acid causes the marshmallows to liquify a bit. That could be what was in the bowl, but usually the ambrosia is more white because the fruit shows through less. Of course, that's just with my recipe.

[Eagle1]

KC, I'm sorry I can't give you a source, but I have read many times that the DNA has been sourced to a Caucasian male. I believe it has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

As for the lone fiber from the rope being in JBR's bed, I think it makes sense to conclude that the rope was in her bed at some point. I asuppose it is too much to ask if fibers fromthe rope were found elsewhere in the house.

I look forward to your post.

I think it's been said at other forums that there really isn't any way to tell for certain if the male was Caucasion?

Re the one rope fiber, maybe someone took the rope upstairs with him to get JonBenet, or, maybe it had been under the bed in the guest room where JAR usually slept, where I believe the bed's dust ruffle had been disturbed, and some other rope was found, not matching the fiber source rope.

[Zoey]

I think it's been said at other forums that there really isn't any way to tell for certain if the male was Caucasion?

Re the one rope fiber, maybe someone took the rope upstairs with him to get JonBenet, or, maybe it had been under the bed in the guest room where JAR usually slept, where I believe the bed's dust ruffle had been disturbed, and some other rope was found, not matching the fiber source rope.

I have read that in the Susannah Chase case (the young lady that was killed with the baseball bat in Boulder) that the lab in Florida has determined the DNA came from a Hispanic male or Native American Male, so I think it is possible to determine.

http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_020190649.html

[bullmoose]

There is a company that will take a sample of your DNA and run a profile to see what ethnic origins you have. I think I saw something on Oprah about it; I believe she found her DNA matched that of a tribe in Sierra Leone, also she found she had no caucasian ancestors. Yes I believe it is entirely possible to tell; moreover, in Oddnews on Yahoo today is a short piece about a white guy in Yorkshire that was tested and found to have African ancestry, five other men with the same last name out of fifteen tested round about also tested positive for the genetic marker. JMHO

[Eagle1]

Let me toss out a few ideas about this pineapple "snack" JBR had in her system. I have tried to wind it into a whole sequence of events that may or may not make sense.

First, the pineapple arrives with a guest at the 12/23 party. Toward the end of the night the guest wants to leave the pineapple at the Ramseys. The guest sees the Ramseys bowl being washed and dried by another guest (leaving no fingerprints of the guest) and decides to pour the leftover pineapple into the Ramsey Bowl. The guest then takes some plastic wrap and puts it over the bowl and picks up the bowl in such a fashion as to not leave her prints on it and puts it in the huge refrigerator the R's have. (Later when the guests are questioned about that party they dummy up because they don't want to get anymore involved than they were by just being there.)

Christmas morning Patsy moves the bowl around in the refrigerator when she is making breakfast and leaves her fingerprints on the bowl. Christmas afternoon, "growing boy" Burke wants a snack because it is a long way from Christmas breakfast to the Whites party when he can eat again. He goes to the refrigerator, takes out the bowl, removes the plastic wrap which bunches up due to sticky pineapple juice on it, and he tosses the plastic wrap. He then grabs a glass which he can reach to make him some iced tea, which he likes according to PR's 1998 interview, but Burke has no idea how to make iced tea and improvises which makes the glass and teabag the evidence it is. Burke leaves the pineapple on the table on the afternoon of Christmas and it sits there unnoticed by all. Burke will claim no knowledge of the pineapple as well because he wants no involvement in the huge confusion going on that morning. He sticks to himself.

Ok...now it is about 10:30 PM. Patsy and John are nodding off.. or maybe not. Unusually (anything is possible in this case) JBR wakes up and remembers that tonight is the night of the Secret Santa Visit. This has been inadvertently planted in her mind by Patsy saying: 'This year you will get an extraspecial visit from Santa this Christmas.' Patsy is thinking of the My Twinn Doll she expects to be the hit of Christmas morning. JBR, being the six year old with the average six year old imagination, hears PR's statement this way: You will get a special, extra visit from Santa on Christmas (not Christmas Eve when most believe Santa comes, but Christmas.)

JBR now goes to the bathroom and forgets to flush.(SEE PR 98 Interview Page 273) (Also note that it is only 10:30 or so which leaves a couple of hours for urine to accumulate and be released when she is killed.) (Further note that PR has stated that she can't hear JBR's toilet flush because it is on the opposite side of the house. Sorry, can't find the cite right now....I am winging it.) Even JBR realizes her panties smell and need to be changed. She tosses the stained/soiled panties on the floor of the bathroom ( SEE PR 1998 Interview Page 456) When opening the panty drawer in the bathroom she decides she likes the new colored Bloomies which are the wrong size. But the Bloomies have a plastic loop which must be cut open to get into the package. (I found out about the plastic loop in Websleuths Forum Postings by Jayelle as to the "Big Bloomies which I consider recommended reading.) JBR needs a knife. She also sees her hair ties which are in the bathroom drawers and grabs a handful as she wants to pretty herself for Santa. (SEE discussion of hairties by LPH in PMPT727 and PR 98 Interview P.257-263. She needs a knife to cut the panty package open and she goes to where she knows someone left one. To the counter where the kitchen knife she may, herself, have used with her bead making kit or potholder loom set in her bedroom that she and friends may have been playing with that afternoon.(SEE PR 98 Interview 334 for Knife discussion.)

JBR ties an extra hairtie/ribbon or two or three into her hair and maybe even ties a scarf loosely around her neck to look pretty for Santa. Maybe she even puts on one of her Tiaras, I don't know...I am on a roll...

JBR goes down the front stairs as a direct path to the Living room where the tree is and she expects to get her special gift or whatever. She waits for a short while and gets bored. She wanders to the breakfast room and sees the bowl on the table. She gets up on a chair and reaches into the bowl when she realizes it is pineapple, one of her favorite food, plucks out one or two pieces without touching the bowl and goes back to the living room. She continues her vigil for the special visit by playing with toys from Christmas. She gets impatient and decides to go looking for the gifts. She knows that some gifts are hidden in the wine celllar. (PR 98 Interview 349/390) Kids just seem to know where gifts can be hidden.

She goes to the sink area drawers next to the spiral staircase where she knows a flashlight is kept. She will need it in a dark basement where the lights switches may be a little foreign to her since it is Burke who usually plays in the train room. As a child will do she leaves the drawer with the flashlight open. (See PR 98 Interview P 510) She proceeds down the basement steps, all adorned so pretty for Santa.

Unfortunately she will soon be confronted by.......drumroll please.....the Killer.... [the circumstances which led to the killer being in the basement is the subject of another post sequencing the events of the killer...coming soon to a thread near you]. The killer comes up from behind JBR and....

Oh....I'm sorry....I just wanted to explain the pineapple and got carried away to the point of explaining how all of this may, I repeat, may have happened when you actually sequence all evidence into logical database flows using Activities and Events which make up Phases and Stages of a Crime. I don't want to get off thread...

Yes I am beiing a snot right now.....sorry :tongue:

LOL

KingCoyote

Great explanation about the pineapple bowl. Maybe it really did happen just that way.

It's such a good story all the way through. Now I'll be looking for the sequel.

[Eagle1]

I like the way you call this a guess KingCoyote. For your entertainment I will tell you what my guess is. I think the pineapple was brought to the house by Santa who had already made it his business to find out what JonBenet's favourite food was because he wanted something he could easily get her to eat a lot of. IMO he had laced the pineapple with a drug that would render her more amenable to the sexual abuse session he had planned he and his mates would indulge in with her once he had got Patsy out of the way.


Here's another good effort that I think needs to be bumped up. I read somewhere that McSanta was almost arrested TWICE, despite his heart trouble or whatever. So I have a question. If they were having some kind of celtic ritual, could/would he have brought the small harp, without any neighbors noticing people gathering and carrying that? Maybe it looked like another Christmas present?

[Eagle1]

There is a company that will take a sample of your DNA and run a profile to see what ethnic origins you have. I think I saw something on Oprah about it; I believe she found her DNA matched that of a tribe in Sierra Leone, also she found she had no caucasian ancestors. Yes I believe it is entirely possible to tell; moreover, in Oddnews on Yahoo today is a short piece about a white guy in Yorkshire that was tested and found to have African ancestry, five other men with the same last name out of fifteen tested round about also tested positive for the genetic marker. JMHO

Okay, thanks, guys. At another forum someone was asking for a source so I'll try to remember to refer them here.