USES For a Celtic Harp

[Eagle1]

Happy 2007 in a couple of days, everyone.

So far, we haven't heard that McReynolds used his celtic harp when visiting children in pediatric wards, for instance terminal cancer ones. We haven't heard if he could even play that harp. Probably he could, or he wouldn't have had it, right?

If it's important that Patsy was still in the previous night's clothes, though, then it's gotta be equally important that the friends who were allegedly CALLED to come over got there so early, and probably were ALSO (?) in the previous night's clothes. Was that angle ever checked? Was there "any evidence of" the friends arriving that morning? Shouldn't there have been some?

For all we know, all of them may have been there all night. JR's "I'm so sorry" could have meant sorry that he let some kind of weird games go on, maybe combining the games of ancient cults like the Celts'.

How many men do you know who would keep a piece of furniture or anything with notches on it for dead little friends?

The group scattered, leaving the cornered R's to fend for themselves as best they could, which was in a way "mud-slinging", even before they could have heard that the R's had been asked by police who they'd suspect.

If they were true friends, that loyal, they should have understood the Rs' need to divert so much damming attention from themselves, that it was simply "self-defense" using them. They were all willing to put it all onto R's, but the "no evidence of" their arriving or leaving the night before or the morning after, may very well mean they were all there all night. Was it checked that they MAY have all been still wearing last night's clothes?

hey must have been "all in it together". As in "two heads are better than one", many heads removing the no "evidence of an intruder" would be better than one. They simply stayed on the dry concrete if they went outside at all, (no footprints that morning from their arriving?) and/or the light snow in the early morning covered their tracks from the night before.

Let's face it, one or more may even have been from BPD, had access to the crime scene and the police files, to dog-ear the dictionary, photograph it, and put it in the folder. Why else would ST and the other guy gasp and be so surprised, if not because it was so obviously planted? Pg 263 of the hardback ST book. I haven't found it yet in the paperback.

If we talk about "no evidence of an intruder", we're calling attention to and have to also acknowledge the many possible reasons why. I'm sure I haven't touched on them all. I believe I just posted something like this at Websleuths' "Coincidences Abount", where Rashomon and NuisancePoster are from. An oldbie with a new tentative theory, of many. I have no favorite theory except that there were others involved, and call myself unbiased, an FS, fence sitter.

[KingCoyote]

The reference to the Dictionary open to "Incest" is on Page 293 of the Paperback Edition of Steve Thomas' book.

Your theory of them possibly being there all night is interesting Eagle1. I have been working on a TimeLine concept and it sure seems like the Whites and the Fernies got to the Ramsey's house quickly, within maybe as short as 10 minutes after the 911 call and allegedly they were called after the 911 call. I have even speculated as to scenarios where they arrive before the Police. Just how close did all of them live? If I remember correctly Fleet White was living pretty close but I don't know about the Fernies?

Just a few thoughts and opinions.

KingCoyote

[Zoey]

I have always been curious about Fleet White and his note taking. What kinds of notes was he taking, and where are those notes now? Why would you walk around taking notes? Did he use a pad and felt pen from the Ramsey home?!

I wonder as well about the clothes the Fernies were wearing and the White's were wearing and if this was checked out as well. In their rush to get to the Ramsey home, did they throw on the first thing they could find, as in the clothes they wore the night before?

IIRC, The Whites lived approx. 10-12 miles from the Ramsey home. I am not sure about the Fernies, although I don't believe it was too far.

[nuisanceposter]

http://www.acandyrose.com/timeline-transcripts1996.htm


1996-12-26 Patsy Ramsey makes 911 call and the police arrive

1996-12-26 (--) 05:52am the 911 call is made my Patsy Ramsey to the police (DOI pg 12)
1996-12-26 (--) 05:52am 911 Call (Transcript)
1996-12-26 (--) Patsy Ramsey calls John/Barbara Fernie for them to come over (DOI pg 12)
1996-12-26 (--) Patsy Ramsey calls Fleet/Priscilla White for them to come over (DOI pg 12)
1996-12-26 (--) Officer French arrived at Ramseys house in marked car (ST pg 16)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French he saw no signs of forced entry or struggle (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French house was locked as it was the night before (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French the alarm system had not been set (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French the dog was at the neighbors (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) 06:00am Cliff Gaston answered the White's phone when Patsy called (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) Fleet and Priscilla White immediately went to the Ramsey house (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) Police were already at the Ramseys when Whites' arrived (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) John Fernie were already at the Ramseys when Whites' arrived (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) John Fernie said the Whites were at the Ramseys when he arrived (Miller trial)
1996-12-26 (--) 06:45am Priscilla White called home, told them JonBenet kidnapped (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) 07:00am Ramseys pastor, Rev. Rol Hoverstock arrived (PMPT pg 35)

[Zoey]

http://www.acandyrose.com/timeline-transcripts1996.htm


1996-12-26 Patsy Ramsey makes 911 call and the police arrive

1996-12-26 (--) 05:52am the 911 call is made my Patsy Ramsey to the police (DOI pg 12)
1996-12-26 (--) 05:52am 911 Call (Transcript)
1996-12-26 (--) Patsy Ramsey calls John/Barbara Fernie for them to come over (DOI pg 12)
1996-12-26 (--) Patsy Ramsey calls Fleet/Priscilla White for them to come over (DOI pg 12)
1996-12-26 (--) Officer French arrived at Ramseys house in marked car (ST pg 16)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French he saw no signs of forced entry or struggle (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French house was locked as it was the night before (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French the alarm system had not been set (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French the dog was at the neighbors (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) 06:00am Cliff Gaston answered the White's phone when Patsy called (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) Fleet and Priscilla White immediately went to the Ramsey house (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) Police were already at the Ramseys when Whites' arrived (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) John Fernie were already at the Ramseys when Whites' arrived (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) John Fernie said the Whites were at the Ramseys when he arrived (Miller trial)
1996-12-26 (--) 06:45am Priscilla White called home, told them JonBenet kidnapped (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) 07:00am Ramseys pastor, Rev. Rol Hoverstock arrived (PMPT pg 35)


Isn't there a contradiction in here? John Fernie was already at the Ramsey's when the White's came, yet the White's were already there when John Fernie came? Isn't something wrong here?

[Coloradokares]

Happy 2007 in a couple of days, everyone.

So far, we haven't heard that McReynolds used his celtic harp when visiting children in pediatric wards, for instance terminal cancer ones. We haven't heard if he could even play that harp. Probably he could, or he wouldn't have had it, right?

If it's important that Patsy was still in the previous night's clothes, though, then it's gotta be equally important that the friends who were allegedly CALLED to come over got there so early, and probably were ALSO (?) in the previous night's clothes. Was that angle ever checked? Was there "any evidence of" the friends arriving that morning? Shouldn't there have been some?

For all we know, all of them may have been there all night. JR's "I'm so sorry" could have meant sorry that he let some kind of weird games go on, maybe combining the games of ancient cults like the Celts'.

How many men do you know who would keep a piece of furniture or anything with notches on it for dead little friends?

The group scattered, leaving the cornered R's to fend for themselves as best they could, which was in a way "mud-slinging", even before they could have heard that the R's had been asked by police who they'd suspect.

If they were true friends, that loyal, they should have understood the Rs' need to divert so much damming attention from themselves, that it was simply "self-defense" using them. They were all willing to put it all onto R's, but the "no evidence of" their arriving or leaving the night before or the morning after, may very well mean they were all there all night. Was it checked that they MAY have all been still wearing last night's clothes?

hey must have been "all in it together". As in "two heads are better than one", many heads removing the no "evidence of an intruder" would be better than one. They simply stayed on the dry concrete if they went outside at all, (no footprints that morning from their arriving?) and/or the light snow in the early morning covered their tracks from the night before.

Let's face it, one or more may even have been from BPD, had access to the crime scene and the police files, to dog-ear the dictionary, photograph it, and put it in the folder. Why else would ST and the other guy gasp and be so surprised, if not because it was so obviously planted? Pg 263 of the hardback ST book. I haven't found it yet in the paperback.

If we talk about "no evidence of an intruder", we're calling attention to and have to also acknowledge the many possible reasons why. I'm sure I haven't touched on them all. I believe I just posted something like this at Websleuths' "Coincidences Abount", where Rashomon and NuisancePoster are from. An oldbie with a new tentative theory, of many. I have no favorite theory except that there were others involved, and call myself unbiased, an FS, fence sitter.

Whites or rather Fleet White for one was in bed when the phone rang. Fleet White was woken up by his visiting inlaws out of bed. His wife was chatting with her sister all night right on their family room sofa. How normal is that .... perfectly for family who had not seen each other in some time catching up. So maybe that does not speak to the Fernies but they also accounted for having to get out of bed and rush over. Not sure what all that does to your theory. Personally it is my honest humble opinion that no one was in a pedo ring or weird subculture onclave at the Ramsey residence that night up till all hours. You however can believe whatever it is that makes the most sense to you. Till its proven beyond reasonable doubt ....thats ok.

[Zoey]

Whites or rather Fleet White for one was in bed when the phone rang. Fleet White was woken up by his visiting inlaws out of bed. His wife was chatting with her sister all night right on their family room sofa. How normal is that .... perfectly for family who had not seen each other in some time catching up. So maybe that does not speak to the Fernies but they also accounted for having to get out of bed and rush over. Not sure what all that does to your theory. Personally it is my honest humble opinion that no one was in a pedo ring or weird subculture onclave at the Ramsey residence that night up till all hours. You however can believe whatever it is that makes the most sense to you. Till its proven beyond reasonable doubt ....thats ok.

How do you know he was in bed? Do you have a link to support this, otherwise you are just going by your feelings, which you do every time someone says anything about Fleet White. Unless you were there at their house, I don't know how you can say he was in bed, or that he was awakened by his visiting in-laws, or that Priscilla spent the night right there on their family room sofa.

[shill]

Whites or rather Fleet White for one was in bed when the phone rang. Fleet White was woken up by his visiting inlaws out of bed. His wife was chatting with her sister all night right on their family room sofa. How normal is that ....
John and Patsy were sleeping because they had had a long day and an early departure in the morning. The alarm clock went off and woke them up. How normal is that?

[Coloradokares]

John and Patsy were sleeping because they had had a long day and an early departure in the morning. The alarm clock went off and woke them up. How normal is that?

Yes that would appear to be very normal. For the sake though of those who believe that John and Patsy have been inconsistent more than once in their accounts and details surrounding the death of their daughter it would appear that not everyone would believe their accounting of rising that morning. That too is their perogative, as it is yours to believe that their accounting was without a doubt the truth. :shrug:

[Louisadelmar]

Yes that would appear to be very normal. For the sake though of those who believe that John and Patsy have been inconsistent more than once in their accounts and details surrounding the death of their daughter it would appear that not everyone would believe their accounting of rising that morning. That too is their perogative, as it is yours to believe that their accounting was without a doubt the truth. :shrug:

I think they told what they remember as best as they remember it. Time and again over the years I've posted articles about how fragile and changeable the memories are of people going through traumatic events. The RDI seem to want the Ramseys to have never-changing, identical recollections of what happened. If they had, I would see it as a sign of guilt.

[Coloradokares]

[QUOTE=Zoey;8794520]How do you know he was in bed? Do you have a link to support this, otherwise you are just going by your feelings, which you do every time someone says anything about Fleet White. Unless you were there at their house, I don't know how you can say he was in bed, or that he was awakened by his visiting in-laws, or that Priscilla spent the night right there on their family room sofa.[/QUOTE
]

I am not just going by my feelings Nor do I appreciate your saying so. or suggesting that is what it seems to you like I always do. Unless you were there you do not know that Fleet White was not in his bed to be awakened by his visiting inlaws. How do I know? Common knowledge to those who have read the books. It was in either Schillers Book or Thomases. Of course the possibility exists his relatives upon interview lied through their teeth. Or perhaps I have the right to believe they were telling the truth. Nor apparently did the author of the book question the truthfulness when they authored the book. I still have my notes packed away for now. When I get the page number I will furnish. Zoey how would you feel if someone questioned your personal accountibility each time you keyboarded a single word. Hopefully shortly someone who owes the books on this can prove to you what is known as common knowledge and written in a book on the subject. For you to question the information is one thing however perhaps in the interest of fairness you should have stopped at that and not put my personal integrity for scruitiny as well. CK

[shill]

CK,
You might think you've built up credibility here, but IMO you've done just the opposite. If anything, you've painted a picture of yourself as a Gossip Columnist with a Talking Head from the local news as your secret source.

[Louisadelmar]

I am not just going by my feelings Nor do I appreciate your saying so. or suggesting that is what it seems to you like I always do. Unless you were there you do not know that Fleet White was not in his bed to be awakened by his visiting inlaws. How do I know? Common knowledge to those who have read the books. It was in either Schillers Book or Thomases. Of course the possibility exists his relatives upon interview lied through their teeth. Or perhaps I have the right to believe they were telling the truth. Nor apparently did the author of the book question the truthfulness when they authored the book. I still have my notes packed away for now. When I get the page number I will furnish. Zoey how would you feel if someone questioned your personal accountibility each time you keyboarded a single word. Hopefully shortly someone who owes the books on this can prove to you what is known as common knowledge and written in a book on the subject. For you to question the information is one thing however perhaps in the interest of fairness you should have stopped at that and not put my personal integrity for scruitiny as well. CK

PMPT, ppbk, p43
Paraphrased: Fleet was in bed by 11. Priscilla and her sister talked until 2AM in the kitchen.

[Zoey]

[QUOTE=Zoey;8794520]How do you know he was in bed? Do you have a link to support this, otherwise you are just going by your feelings, which you do every time someone says anything about Fleet White. Unless you were there at their house, I don't know how you can say he was in bed, or that he was awakened by his visiting in-laws, or that Priscilla spent the night right there on their family room sofa.[/QUOTE
]

I am not just going by my feelings Nor do I appreciate your saying so. or suggesting that is what it seems to you like I always do. Unless you were there you do not know that Fleet White was not in his bed to be awakened by his visiting inlaws. How do I know? Common knowledge to those who have read the books. It was in either Schillers Book or Thomases. Of course the possibility exists his relatives upon interview lied through their teeth. Or perhaps I have the right to believe they were telling the truth. Nor apparently did the author of the book question the truthfulness when they authored the book. I still have my notes packed away for now. When I get the page number I will furnish. Zoey how would you feel if someone questioned your personal accountibility each time you keyboarded a single word. Hopefully shortly someone who owes the books on this can prove to you what is known as common knowledge and written in a book on the subject. For you to question the information is one thing however perhaps in the interest of fairness you should have stopped at that and not put my personal integrity for scruitiny as well. CK


What??? You have two posters on this board who openly told you they were putting you on their ignore list, yet you say something to me about putting your personal integrity out there for scrutiny? You have had Schill climbing all over you for your postings, yet you say something to me? You posted what you did about me because I happen to not believe in the Whites and their story, and you always come unglued when anyone posts anything about the Whites that does not fit your perfect image of them. IMO, they are still high on the suspect list and because it is in a book does not make it fact, IMO.

[Louisadelmar]

PMPT, ppbk, p43
Paraphrased: Fleet was in bed by 11. Priscilla and her sister talked until 2AM in the kitchen.

Although he's not my first choice; it seems to me if we turn the same gimlet eye on Fleet White that was turned on the Ramseys, he has no alibi for 3 hours that night.

[Eagle1]

Although he's not my first choice; it seems to me if we turn the same gimlet eye on Fleet White that was turned on the Ramseys, he has no alibi for 3 hours that night.

Thanks for all the comments.

Amen, we can't take anyone's word for it that the friends were all in bed that morning. Q: WERE THERE A LOT OF FRESH TIRE TRACKS WHEN POLICE ARRIVED, TO PROVE THE FRIENDS HAD ARRIVED THAT MORNING, NOT PREVIOUS EVENING? There had been a light snow, which would have obliterated any footprints. Some bike tracks were probably by a paper boy.(?) There's not much if anything we can flatly state as fact.

I think it's very suspicious they could all :arrive" so early. And remember we can't take their word for it about what they were doing when, as some of the authors of books did when the case was fairly new, before they had a chance to do their own thinking about it very much.

And I should have pointed out that McReynolds isn't said to have visited any childrens' wards in hospitals. We aren't even told that he played his celtic harp anywhere. We could be surmising that he met children that way rather than by playing Santa in parades, but we really don't know. He didn't teach music. I forget what his teaching job's subject was.

Bog man and Landau man and other Celtic customs which could be googled suggest there may have also been sacrificing of children, although I can't at the moment think of any known example. I've read that they thanked a Christmas tree for sacrificing itself, as if it were a person, before cutting it down. Obviously I'm thinking there may have been some ceremony when JonBenet was killed, where the harp was used. Maybe even when the other children died. Anyone remember how manY?

Anyone know any USES for a Celtic (small) harp? A normal harp is too large to carry around, and has pedals for chord-changing. I forget what the smaller one has for that. A late friend of mine had one but never told me anything about it. She was Irish. Don't know if she got it over there.

[Eagle1]

Too late to edit the above post, I'd like to add another question. There have been threads on the forums about their allegedly calling the friends over.

Maybe they really didn't? I'd just like to know if anyone has any ideas about it, and would ST know if there were any fresh tire tracks that morning? It was said there were no footprints, but the concrete was dry.

That would put a different light on the whole story, all the staging, moving the suitcase to under the window, maybe because JR had broken it, if that's even true, and it might make a convincing break-in evidence?

Just wondering.

[Coloradokares]

Too late to edit the above post, I'd like to add another question. There have been threads on the forums about their allegedly calling the friends over.

Maybe they really didn't? I'd just like to know if anyone has any ideas about it, and would ST know if there were any fresh tire tracks that morning? It was said there were no footprints, but the concrete was dry.

That would put a different light on the whole story, all the staging, moving the suitcase to under the window, maybe because JR had broken it, if that's even true, and it might make a convincing break-in evidence?

Just wondering.

So now you doubt the Ramsey accounting in their book DOI?

[Eagle1]

So now you doubt the Ramsey accounting in their book DOI?

Yes, we can doubt everything they've said for all I care, told you I claim to be totally unbiased. We're seeking Truth, rather than one side or the other.

Thanks for the reply. I was wondering what my fellow WS'ers would say.

[KingCoyote]

I was just rereading some posts and am still curious if anyone knows where the Whites and Fernies lived in relation to the Ramseys. From what we seem to know, or at least assume, the Whites and the Fernies were there in about 10-15 minutes. Thats fine unless one of them does in fact live 10-12 miles away. Think about it for a minute. You get a phone call at 6:00 AM in the morning. In order to cover 12 miles in 12 minutes you have to average 60 MPH. Add in a couple of minutes here or there to get your car started, get out of the driveway, slow down a little at intersections that may have stoplights and then gun it, pull up to a parking place or in the back alley, get out of your car and approach the house and you have at least 15-20 minutes.

Zoey - I would love to know what is in Fleet White's notes and why he was even taking notes and where he got the pad and pen/pencil from but there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about Fleet White and his party and his note taking etc.

So to sum up again: Where did the Whites and Fernies live and how far away was each respective house from the Ramseys? Thanking you in advance because I am just too tired right now to do my own research. (The meal was tasty; the nap was needed and the football game was boring.)

KingCoyote

[Zoey]

I was just rereading some posts and am still curious if anyone knows where the Whites and Fernies lived in relation to the Ramseys. From what we seem to know, or at least assume, the Whites and the Fernies were there in about 10-15 minutes. Thats fine unless one of them does in fact live 10-12 miles away. Think about it for a minute. You get a phone call at 6:00 AM in the morning. In order to cover 12 miles in 12 minutes you have to average 60 MPH. Add in a couple of minutes here or there to get your car started, get out of the driveway, slow down a little at intersections that may have stoplights and then gun it, pull up to a parking place or in the back alley, get out of your car and approach the house and you have at least 15-20 minutes.

Zoey - I would love to know what is in Fleet White's notes and why he was even taking notes and where he got the pad and pen/pencil from but there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about Fleet White and his party and his note taking etc.

So to sum up again: Where did the Whites and Fernies live and how far away was each respective house from the Ramseys? Thanking you in advance because I am just too tired right now to do my own research. (The meal was tasty; the nap was needed and the football game was boring.)

KingCoyote


I copied this from www.acandyrose.com. This gives somewhat of a timeline of how long it took the night of the White's party to get from the White's home, to two other stops and then home, but I know I have other information that gives mileage. I am hunting for you.


Ramseys left the White's party about 8:30pm "or so" (DOI pg 8)
1996-12-25 (--) Fleet White told police Ramseys left his home around 9:30pm (PMPT pg 33)
1996-12-25 (--) Patsy Ramsey took gift basket to the Stuart/Roxy Walker house (DOI pg 8)
1996-12-25 (--) Patsy and Burke Ramsey took gift basket to the Glen/Susan Stine house (DOI pg 8)
1996-12-25 (--) Ramseys said it was too late to deliver gift basket to John/Barbara Fernie (DOI pg 8)
1996-12-25 (--) Third gift basket for the Fernie family remained in the trunk of the car (DOI pg 8)
1996-12-25 (--) John Ramsey told French they arrived home at 10:00pm from White (PMPT pg 58)

[Tober]

Where did the Whites and Fernies live and how far away was each respective house from the Ramseys?

The Whites lived at 743 on the same street as the Ramseys.

[Zoey]

The Whites lived at 743 on the same street as the Ramseys.


They had moved the summer before. They had rented out the house at 743 15th Street.

[Louisadelmar]

A poster on Topix lists the following as FW's address. About 4 minutes from the Ramsey house. I don't know the poster so can't vouch for his reliability.
749 15th St
Boulder CO 803 02
Drive: 1.2 mi (about 4 mins)
1. Head south on 15th St toward Baseline Rd - go 0.1 mi
2. Turn right at Baseline Rd - go 0.7 mi
3. Turn right at 6th St - go 0.3 mi
4. Turn left at Aurora Ave - go 0.2 mi
5. Turn right at Cleveland Pl - go 30 ft
To: 403 Cleveland Pl
Boulder CO 803 02

That time/distance fits with whatJohn Ramsey said in his 1998 interview:

8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we went from the Whites

9 to the Walkers to drop off a gift.

10 LOU SMIT: Were they labeled in this diagram?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.(INAUDIBLE).

12 LOU SMIT:(INAUDIBLE) would the drive have

13 been from the Whites there?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, six minutes, five minutes.

15 It's not really far.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay..........


6 LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.

7 LOU SMIT: So when you leave the Steins,

8 Patsy returns or whatever and that's just a short

9 distance to your house, I imagine. What? Just a

10 couple of minutes?

[KingCoyote]

Luisadelmar:

I continued with the reading of JR's 1998 Interview with LE and found P. 109 to be on topic. To summarize JR says that they debated going to the Fernies (from the Stines) but that it was probably 15 minutes away (I am assuming from the Stines). Again assuming an average MPH inside of the city of 30 MPH that would put the Fernie's house 7.5 miles away from the Stine house. If we can't find the exact address of the Fernie's house and calculate distance and time maybe we can "tack" some knowledge together and come up with a reasonable answer.

Let me reiterate that my posts in no way imply that any party, in any way, had anything to to with causing the death of JBR. I am just analyzing information. :read:

KingCoyote

[Eagle1]

............Think about it for a minute. You get a phone call at 6:00 AM in the morning. In order to cover 12 miles in 12 minutes you have to average 60 MPH. Add in a couple of minutes here or there to get your car started, get out of the driveway, slow down a little at intersections that may have stoplights and then gun it, pull up to a parking place or in the back alley, get out of your car and approach the house and you have at least 15-20 minutes. .....

Zoey - I would love to know what is in Fleet White's notes and why he was even taking notes and where he got the pad and pen/pencil from but there doesn't seem to be a lot of information about Fleet White and his party and his note taking etc. KingCoyote

I'd like to know that too. And don't forget, before even getting into cars, the friends had to get dressed, maybe have a cup of instant coffee, brush teeth, etc. The guys wouldn't have shaved that early, but no hair growth was noticeable? 15 min extra for all that? I've suggested a theory in the thread about the celtic harp that very possibly these friends were still in last night's clothes just like PR, had been there all night. There had been a light snow in the wee hours, so footprints from last night would have been covered. Were there fresh tire prints? We've heard there were no footprints and that the concrete was dry, leading to the house and garage. Also we have not been told if possibly the harp was there, which might mean some sort of cult ceremony. I need to see if there's anything about it at ACandyRose, I know, who first brought up the subject of the harp. McReynolds had received one of the gift ties besides his $25-$30 for playing Santa, I just read at another forum, no idea where they got that.

[LindaA]

I'm thinking that under the circumstances they skipped the coffee. The rest of your question, IMO, is very interesting.

[Zoey]

I'd like to know that too. And don't forget, before even getting into cars, the friends had to get dressed, maybe have a cup of instant coffee, brush teeth, etc. The guys wouldn't have shaved that early, but no hair growth was noticeable? 15 min extra for all that? I've suggested a theory in the thread about the celtic harp that very possibly these friends were still in last night's clothes just like PR, had been there all night. There had been a light snow in the wee hours, so footprints from last night would have been covered. Were there fresh tire prints? We've heard there were no footprints and that the concrete was dry, leading to the house and garage. Also we have not been told if possibly the harp was there, which might mean some sort of cult ceremony. I need to see if there's anything about it at ACandyRose, I know, who first brought up the subject of the harp. McReynolds had received one of the gift ties besides his $25-$30 for playing Santa, I just read at another forum, no idea where they got that.

IMO, I have always found it strange that when PR called the White's home, it was not Fleet or Priscilla that answered the phone; it was a guest at their home. Was this because Fleet was already on his way to the Ramsey home, knowing full well what had transpired at that home the night before, knowing that the Ramsey's had to get up early and would have found the note by the time he got there??? Of course, this is just my questioning and MOO.

[Coloradokares]

IMO, I have always found it strange that when PR called the White's home, it was not Fleet or Priscilla that answered the phone; it was a guest at their home. Was this because Fleet was already on his way to the Ramsey home, knowing full well what had transpired at that home the night before, knowing that the Ramsey's had to get up early and would have found the note by the time he got there??? Of course, this is just my questioning and MOO.


Fleet was woken up by those self same relatives. He was in Bed. Priscilla was on the sofa still chatting and catching up. He was NOT enroute to the Ramseys. This is the testimony of all who were at the house. I don't think they'd just make this up ......why would they.....

[Zoey]

Fleet was woken up by those self same relatives. He was in Bed. Priscilla was on the sofa still chatting and catching up. He was NOT enroute to the Ramseys. This is the testimony of all who were at the house. I don't think they'd just make this up ......why would they.....


Link please to this information. I would like to read this testimony, so please provide the link to this.

If you would read Louisadelmar's post #13, you will see that in PMPT, Priscilla was in the kitchen until 2:00 talking with her sister. Your information is incorrect to begin with. So again, please provide your link for your information.

[thewhitewitch1]

IMO, I have always found it strange that when PR called the White's home, it was not Fleet or Priscilla that answered the phone; it was a guest at their home. Was this because Fleet was already on his way to the Ramsey home, knowing full well what had transpired at that home the night before, knowing that the Ramsey's had to get up early and would have found the note by the time he got there??? Of course, this is just my questioning and MOO.

Come on! What evidence is there that FW was involved? What motive would he have had? Suspecting FW of anything is just grasping at straws because there is nothing to support a theory that he had anything to do with it. The same goes for all of the Ramseys friends who are "suspects". IMO

[Zoey]

Come on! What evidence is there that FW was involved? What motive would he have had? Suspecting FW of anything is just grasping at straws because there is nothing to support a theory that he had anything to do with it. The same goes for all of the Ramseys friends who are "suspects". IMO


Come on! What motive would the Ramseys have had? Yet you accuse them of this horrific crime, no problem. IMO.

[Tober]

What motive would the Ramseys have had?

Anger was most likely the motive for JonBenet's head injury (based on the severity of it). The motive for the staging and negligence (not calling an ambulance or taking her to the hospital) was most likely to cover-up the past sexual abuse that was determined to have occured.

[LindaA]

Anger was most likely the motive for JonBenet's head injury (based on the severity of it). The motive for the staging and negligence (not calling an ambulance or taking her to the hospital) was most likely to cover-up the past sexual abuse that was determined to have occured.

Who determined this and when?

[thewhitewitch1]

Come on! What motive would the Ramseys have had? Yet you accuse them of this horrific crime, no problem. IMO.


What's the difference between acusing the Ramseys of this "horrific" crime and anyone else? Because they were her parents they "couldn't have done it?"
In their case, maybe there was no "motive". An accident occured and they attempted to cover it up. Or, as someone said, perhaps there had been prior sexual abuse of some kind. The "experts" have different opinions on whether or not there had been previous sexual abuse.
Why do I accuse the Ramseys? Well, for one, I have a difficult time believing that anyone either just waltzed into their home while the entire family was present, or laid in wait until they were asleep and had the comfort and ease of doing all that was done right under their noses, so to speak. Then there are the lies and inconsistancies in their stories. There are too many unanswered questions NOT to suspect them. And the damn pineapple. Yes.
Fleet White disturbing the crime scene doesn't automatically make him a suspect. I'm sure I wouldn't think about a crime scene and not touching anything if I were in that position. If you're not a cop (or a crime buff :D ), you probably wouldn't even think about it.
As far as him "taking notes", who else claimed that he did that besides the Ramseys? It's not like their word is gold; especially when they are trying to implicate anyone and everyone besides themselves. Why would his taking notes indicate that he had anything to do with it anyway? They claimed he almost knew the ransom note "by heart". You would think the Ramseys would have read it and tried to figure out who may have written it. It should have been them who read it so much they knew it by heart. Not so.
Why is that? Just things that make me go...."Hmmmm".

[Louisadelmar]

I thought it was Schiller who said he was taking notes.

[thewhitewitch1]

I thought it was Schiller who said he was taking notes.


Not sure...but Schiller wasn't there so he must have gotten this information from someone. I don't have the books so I can't look it up. If I am not mistaken, though, it was one of the Ramseys who said it.

[Louisadelmar]

Not sure...but Schiller wasn't there so he must have gotten this information from someone. I don't have the books so I can't look it up. If I am not mistaken, though, it was one of the Ramseys who said it.

I'm not sure either. There is this from the 1998 interview:

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Fleet was taking frantic
22 notes, I remember that. I noticed that it was a
23 yellow note pad, and he was just writing; writing,
24 writing, writing.
25 MIKE KANE: Do you know what he was writing?
0179
1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No. No. I mean it
2 was like every little thing I had to do or should
3 do --
4 MIKE KANE: Did you find that odd?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess at the time I thought
6 he was just trying to do whatever he could to
7 help, was my impression. And at the time, I didn't
8 find it odd.
9 MIKE KANE: Was he talking to you and
10 comforting you?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that he
12 was. Comforting that I remember was coming from
13 Father Rol. That's all I really remember
14 specifically.

[thewhitewitch1]

I'm not sure either. There is this from the 1998 interview:

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Fleet was taking frantic
22 notes, I remember that. I noticed that it was a
23 yellow note pad, and he was just writing; writing,
24 writing, writing.
25 MIKE KANE: Do you know what he was writing?
0179
1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No. No. I mean it
2 was like every little thing I had to do or should
3 do --
4 MIKE KANE: Did you find that odd?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess at the time I thought
6 he was just trying to do whatever he could to
7 help, was my impression. And at the time, I didn't
8 find it odd.
9 MIKE KANE: Was he talking to you and
10 comforting you?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that he
12 was. Comforting that I remember was coming from
13 Father Rol. That's all I really remember
14 specifically.


What do you mean you're not sure? JR is the one that said it! You've just proven it. :shrug:

[Zoey]

What do you mean you're not sure? JR is the one that said it! You've just proven it. :shrug:


I think what she means is she is not sure if John was the only one that said it. I thought, and I am still searching, that Linda Arndt also mentions Fleet walking around taking notes. I am coming up blank on my searching though:shrug:

[Louisadelmar]

What do you mean you're not sure? JR is the one that said it! You've just proven it. :shrug:

I'm not sure whether Schiller said it too. I have read other references to FW taakiing notes.

[aussiesheila]

http://www.acandyrose.com/timeline-transcripts1996.htm


1996-12-26 Patsy Ramsey makes 911 call and the police arrive

1996-12-26 (--) 05:52am the 911 call is made my Patsy Ramsey to the police (DOI pg 12)
1996-12-26 (--) 05:52am 911 Call (Transcript)
1996-12-26 (--) Patsy Ramsey calls John/Barbara Fernie for them to come over (DOI pg 12)
1996-12-26 (--) Patsy Ramsey calls Fleet/Priscilla White for them to come over (DOI pg 12)
1996-12-26 (--) Officer French arrived at Ramseys house in marked car (ST pg 16)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French he saw no signs of forced entry or struggle (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French house was locked as it was the night before (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French the alarm system had not been set (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) John Ramsey told French the dog was at the neighbors (ST pg 18)
1996-12-26 (--) 06:00am Cliff Gaston answered the White's phone when Patsy called (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) Fleet and Priscilla White immediately went to the Ramsey house (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) Police were already at the Ramseys when Whites' arrived (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) John Fernie were already at the Ramseys when Whites' arrived (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) John Fernie said the Whites were at the Ramseys when he arrived (Miller trial)
1996-12-26 (--) 06:45am Priscilla White called home, told them JonBenet kidnapped (PMPT pg 34)
1996-12-26 (--) 07:00am Ramseys pastor, Rev. Rol Hoverstock arrived (PMPT pg 35)There is a discrepancy here wrt John Fernie's and the White's arrival times. I think it was stated in PMPT that John Fernie arrived first, which I think was incorrect as I read later that John Fernie stated under oath that the Whites were already there when he arrived.

I think I worked it out that the Whites arrived in under 10 minutes. Whatever the time was I had a hard time believing that there would have been sufficient time for Gaston to wake Fleet and Priscilla, for them both to get dressed and make sure arrangements were in place for their two young children's care that day and then still manage to arrive before John Fernie. Barbara Fernie did not arrive until 15 minutes after her husband, which sounded more natural to me - one of you (he) go immediately, the other (she) stay home and get things in order, shower and put makep on and then go. Did anyone check whether Priscilla had all her makeup on? I hope she didn't and I hope both she and Fleet were a bit smelly and dishevelled or that would make them look even more suspicious, almost as though the two of them had been sitting up showered and dressed, waiting for the call from Patsy.

[aussiesheila]

Fleet was woken up by those self same relatives. He was in Bed. Priscilla was on the sofa still chatting and catching up. He was NOT enroute to the Ramseys. This is the testimony of all who were at the house. I don't think they'd just make this up ......why would they.....I can't understand why you feel the need to ask such a question, Coloradokares. Surely it is just so obvious that if they or either one of them was involved in any way with what happened to JonBenet, they would make anything up in order to keep it from being found out.

[aussiesheila]

Anger was most likely the motive for JonBenet's head injury (based on the severity of it). The motive for the staging and negligence (not calling an ambulance or taking her to the hospital) was most likely to cover-up the past sexual abuse that was determined to have occured.Ah yes, to cover-up the past sexual abuse that was determined to have occured.

But perpetrated by whom?

THAT is the question.

[Eagle1]

Whites or rather Fleet White for one was in bed when the phone rang. Fleet White was woken up by his visiting inlaws out of bed. His wife was chatting with her sister all night right on their family room sofa. How normal is that .... perfectly for family who had not seen each other in some time catching up. So maybe that does not speak to the Fernies but they also accounted for having to get out of bed and rush over. Not sure what all that does to your theory. Personally it is my honest humble opinion that no one was in a pedo ring or weird subculture onclave at the Ramsey residence that night up till all hours. You however can believe whatever it is that makes the most sense to you. Till its proven beyond reasonable doubt ....thats ok.

I'm afraid I have to agree with the January 7 post by Aussieshiela. Most of us don't believe everything the R's say, or any of the other characters, necessarily. Circumstances were just entirely too strange no matter how you look at what we know.

There's a whole list of things he'd have to do, and would it immediately even sink in, if you just woke up, that a child you know has been found dead?

[LindaA]

But when FW first woke up JBR's body had not yet been found. He knew only that she was missing and presumed to have been kidnapped.

I can't think what FW would have to have done other than get dressed when he heard JBR was missing. Not that I believe in the pedo ring at the Ramseys'; there would have been evidence to prove its existence.

[Eagle1]

The reference to the Dictionary open to "Incest" is on Page 293 of the Paperback Edition of Steve Thomas' book.

Your theory of them possibly being there all night is interesting Eagle1. I have been working on a TimeLine concept and it sure seems like the Whites and the Fernies got to the Ramsey's house quickly, within maybe as short as 10 minutes after the 911 call and allegedly they were called after the 911 call. I have even speculated as to scenarios where they arrive before the Police. Just how close did all of them live? If I remember correctly Fleet White was living pretty close but I don't know about the Fernies?

Just a few thoughts and opinions.

KingCoyote

So sorry I didn't get back to this sooner, just now noticed your reply.

Great questions. I believe you're a member at WS, and there's a thread there which answers your question, has a detailed timeline. Title of the thread...hm....I forget, but Aussieshiela I think did the timeline.

I just said there's a whole list of things he'd have to do before even starting over to 15th St. How long does shaving take? A cup of coffee on the run? A shower? Getting dressed. For starters.

Oops, my mistake. That was here, not WS!

[Eagle1]

IMO, I have always found it strange that when PR called the White's home, it was not Fleet or Priscilla that answered the phone; it was a guest at their home. Was this because Fleet was already on his way to the Ramsey home, knowing full well what had transpired at that home the night before, knowing that the Ramsey's had to get up early and would have found the note by the time he got there??? Of course, this is just my questioning and MOO.

Good catch. I probably would never have thought of that possibility.

[elvislives]

Good catch. I probably would never have thought of that possibility.

Why does everyone keep suspecting that FW was involved in the murder? I haven't seen ANY evidence to suggest that. Am I missing something?

[KingCoyote]

I beleive that in earlier posts on Page 1 of this thread we have deduced as best is possible that FW/PW lived closer to the Ramseys than the Fernies did and that the Fernies lived maybe 8-9 miles from the Ramseys. I just wonder how the Fernies got there fast enough to read the RN on the floor next to the patio door before it was given to the police and according to some statements got there before the Whites who lived much closer. I would still be very interested in hearing comments about this. This is another one of those puzzles.

KingCoyote

[LindaA]

Elvislives, not to agree that FW was involved, but many here wonder why he wandered around the crime scene taking notes, why he moved items in the basement after JB was found, and mostly why he was so angry -- violent, even at the home of Patsy's parents at the time of the funeral. Many thought he and John would come to blows.

[Zoey]

Elvislives, not to agree that FW was involved, but many here wonder why he wandered around the crime scene taking notes, why he moved items in the basement after JB was found, and mostly why he was so angry -- violent, even at the home of Patsy's parents at the time of the funeral. Many thought he and John would come to blows.

Those are just some of the reasons that I have Fleet on the suspect list. There are just some things about him that don't seem right. Most would agree that he had nothing to do with this, and I have tried to follow that, but for me it was the many times down to the basement, the pictures that have been posted that showed the cellar where Fleet claims he couldn't see the body, how rapidly he got to the Ramsey home, how much trouble he caused in Atlanta at the Ramsey's relative's home.

[aussiesheila]

Elvislives, not to agree that FW was involved, but many here wonder why he wandered around the crime scene taking notes, why he moved items in the basement after JB was found, and mostly why he was so angry -- violent, even at the home of Patsy's parents at the time of the funeral. Many thought he and John would come to blows.LindaA, although you don't necessarily agree that FW was involved I have to say that I do. All those things you list about him make him highly suspicious to me. There are a few others also.

Apparently FW was jokingly referred to as "Mr Mom" by friends (I think I read this in PMPT) because he was the one who stayed home and looked after the children. Now I know there are many wonderful, admirable men who do this and I do not want to cast even a hint of a slur on them, but in a situation like this, IF the guy is a pedophile (and I know this would only be in a tiny, tiny minority of cases) it does open up opportunities for him to molest children in his care. Apparently FW took care of the Ramsey children alot of the time and I got the impression, again probably from PMPT, that he was always more than willing to do so.

The other thing that made me suspicious of him was those letters he wrote to the people of Boulder I think, angrily demanding that the governor (Bill Owens??) appoint an independent prosecutor. This was when the DA had some influence on the case and was interested in directing the investigation away from the Ramseys. IMO FW wanted to get the investigation back into the hands of someone who would redirect the investigation back towards finding evidence of Ramsy guilt, as BPD originally had it set up. Once the new governor (Roy Romer??) who was not a mate of his, had been installed in office FW didn't continue with his demand as far as I could see.

There were also those open letters, I think to the university about banning production of the pro-Ramsey documentary by whoever (sorry, I've been away from forums for a while and I'm rusty on details).

Why was the guy so angry. I mean so really, really angry for a guy who was just the former friend of someone whose child was murdered. If he was a close relative I could understand it, but he wasn't. I think his anger was driven by fear. Fear that he and his mates would be exposed as having indulged in activities they would rather not become publically known.

[KingCoyote]

I have heard that FW picked up one of the Ramseys note pads to take notes with....Is that true....if so...wouldn't it have been a real mess if he had picked up the pad that was used for the Ransom Note and put his fingerprints all over it...or then again the "pad" might never have been discovered....just thinking

KC

[bullmoose]

Sheila:Good post; but consider this possibilty also: Maybe White is a nutter, or whacko thrown off-kilter by the BPD's statements to him about the Ramseys supposedly casting blame on him for the murder. Actually, though,I think your post makes more sense. He buddied up to that most perceptive of murder investigators--Synthroid Stevie, in a big way, becoming a breakfast buddy of his when he could spare the time from talking to tabloid reporters; that alone makes me suspicious of him. His behavior all along has been bizarre, to say the least.:( :(

[thewhitewitch1]

Elvislives, not to agree that FW was involved, but many here wonder why he wandered around the crime scene taking notes, why he moved items in the basement after JB was found, and mostly why he was so angry -- violent, even at the home of Patsy's parents at the time of the funeral. Many thought he and John would come to blows.

Interesting to note is that later JR denied there ever being a confrontation with FW.

[thewhitewitch1]

Those are just some of the reasons that I have Fleet on the suspect list. There are just some things about him that don't seem right. Most would agree that he had nothing to do with this, and I have tried to follow that, but for me it was the many times down to the basement, the pictures that have been posted that showed the cellar where Fleet claims he couldn't see the body, how rapidly he got to the Ramsey home, how much trouble he caused in Atlanta at the Ramsey's relative's home.

Maybe the reason FW got so upset is because he knew something was wrong when he looked in that wine cellar and didn't see JB because she wasn't there. At that point, he probably began to suspect the Ramseys had killed her. That would tend to make you a bit upset, don't you think?
As far as being "Mr Mom"...if he had been abusing JB, surely she would have shown some evidence of it. Fear of going to their home, for example. Acting out...something...anything. I'm sure he didn't mind watching the Ramsey kids because he had kids their own age and they were all friends. I don't see anything sinister in that.

[thewhitewitch1]

I have heard that FW picked up one of the Ramseys note pads to take notes with....Is that true....if so...wouldn't it have been a real mess if he had picked up the pad that was used for the Ransom Note and put his fingerprints all over it...or then again the "pad" might never have been discovered....just thinking

KC


KC, as far as I know, the only ones who have ever said that FW was "taking notes" were the Ramseys. Maybe he was taking notes about the Ramseys for all we know. Maybe he sensed something was not right from the start.
Maybe he wasn't taking notes at all. I guess I would believe it more if there was someone else to back up the Ramseys claim.
Also, JR was "taking notes" and put an asterick next to "ask to speak with JB".

[Louisadelmar]

KC, as far as I know, the only ones who have ever said that FW was "taking notes" were the Ramseys. Maybe he was taking notes about the Ramseys for all we know. Maybe he sensed something was not right from the start.
Maybe he wasn't taking notes at all. I guess I would believe it more if there was someone else to back up the Ramseys claim.
Also, JR was "taking notes" and put an asterick next to "ask to speak with JB".

I think Thomas mentioned it and just recently I was reading somewhere? that BPD had a question and White was able to answer it from his notes. I'll have to think for a while to see if I can remember where. Maybe PMPT.

[shill]

I have heard that FW picked up one of the Ramseys note pads to take notes with....Is that true....if so...wouldn't it have been a real mess if he had picked up the pad that was used for the Ransom
Maybe he picked up the pad to leave fingerprints as an excuse for why his fingerprints are on the pad or maybe he wanted LE to put 2+2 together when they saw the pad he was writing on and the ransom notepaper.
Maybe it's that he left his party that night with his son to go caroling, which is a great way to scout out someone's house and neighbors to see if they're home.
Or that he is into sailing and the wrist ligature used sailing knots common to mooring a line.
And as others stated he had private access to JB, and private info like the bonus and the dog not home.
He lived close enough to get there and back unnoticed.
Or that he made a 911 call on the 23rd that would be a great way to test how much time you have for the LE to arrive.

[Zoey]

Maybe the reason FW got so upset is because he knew something was wrong when he looked in that wine cellar and didn't see JB because she wasn't there. At that point, he probably began to suspect the Ramseys had killed her. That would tend to make you a bit upset, don't you think?
As far as being "Mr Mom"...if he had been abusing JB, surely she would have shown some evidence of it. Fear of going to their home, for example. Acting out...something...anything. I'm sure he didn't mind watching the Ramsey kids because he had kids their own age and they were all friends. I don't see anything sinister in that.


tww1, you have me confused. I am sure I am just reading this wrong, but if Fleet looked in the cellar and didn't see any body, that would not be any reason for him to suspect they killed her, unless he knew that she had/should have been in there because of something he did. When he looked in the cellar, all he knew was that she had been kidnapped. At that time, there was no indication she had been murdered. So why would he be upset if he didn't see her? You would think if he had nothing to do with the murder, he would be glad to have not found her body in there.

[aussiesheila]

Sheila:Good post; but consider this possibilty also: Maybe White is a nutter, or whacko thrown off-kilter by the BPD's statements to him about the Ramseys supposedly casting blame on him for the murder. Actually, though,I think your post makes more sense. He buddied up to that most perceptive of murder investigators--Synthroid Stevie, in a big way, becoming a breakfast buddy of his when he could spare the time from talking to tabloid reporters; that alone makes me suspicious of him. His behavior all along has been bizarre, to say the least.:( :(I don't like to be too harsh on ST, I do think he put a huge effort into his investigation and was dedicated to trying to find the killer of JonBenet. I just don't think he was a good homicide detective. He wasn't even homicide detective, for goodness sakes. So why was he on the homicide investigation team? My answer to that question is that he was "Eller's man" and by that I mean that he liked Eller and Eller liked him probably because they thought along similar lines, and Eller felt he could trust ST to investigate along the lines he directed him. And IMO Eller was being manipulated by FW who was organising the whole kidnapping scenario coverup to keep the fact that JonBenet had been killed by pedophiles from being discovered. All I have ever learned about Eller was what I have read in PMPT so I would be interested to know if anyone has done any research on him and found anything of interest.

[aussiesheila]

Maybe the reason FW got so upset is because he knew something was wrong when he looked in that wine cellar and didn't see JB because she wasn't there. At that point, he probably began to suspect the Ramseys had killed her. That would tend to make you a bit upset, don't you think?No I don't. I think his post murder behaviour was just far too extreme to be able to reasonably attribute it to his being upset because he suspected his best friends murdered their daughter. IMO he would have been shocked and disbelieving, not angry and agressive. Maybe if he was a relative I could believe his behaviour was out of concern for JonBenet and anger at the parents, but I can't believe just a friend, even a very good a friend would act the way he did.
As far as being "Mr Mom"...if he had been abusing JB, surely she would have shown some evidence of it. Fear of going to their home, for example. Acting out...something...anything. I'm sure he didn't mind watching the Ramsey kids because he had kids their own age and they were all friends. I don't see anything sinister in that.There is a lot of evidence to suggest that JonBenet was being sexually abused for some years prior to her death. For people like me, who think she WAS being abused, we have to ask - who do we think it was who was abusing her? It seems like it couldn't have been John because he was investigated for some 4 months to the nth degree by a police dept hell bent on finding even a smidgin of evidence that he was a pedophile and yet came up with absolutely nothing. I think there is evidence from Nedra's comments to suggest that her maternal grandfather was abusing her, and FW's behaviour after the murder suggests to me that the man has something he is trying to hide and IMO it is that he was abusing her as well. PW was also quoted as having made a rather cryptic comment to Patsy along the lines of "Well if you don't know what was going on I could tell you a few things" and Patsy, feigning complete innocence in DOI wondered what she could possibly have meant.

As far as JonBenet 'acting out', how do we know that she didn't? John was away on business trips alot and I suspect that was when most of the abuse took place anyway, so he wouldn't have been there to notice and I hardly think that Patsy would have done anything about it if she had noticed, if it was convenient for her that JonBenet went and played with Daphne, then I think that is what JonBenet would have had to do.

And what about the wetting and soiling of the panties, isn't that some kind of acting out? Patsy just took her to that pediatrician, who just made all those pathetic excuses and in doing so protected those pedophiles, IMO, intentionally. If he didn't think her complaints were due to sexual abuse he should have referred her on to urologists and respiratory specialists. They were certainly chronic complaints and as such warranted further investigation into their causes, IMO.

[andU]

Maybe he picked up the pad to leave fingerprints as an excuse for why his fingerprints are on the pad or maybe he wanted LE to put 2+2 together when they saw the pad he was writing on and the ransom notepaper.
Maybe it's that he left his party that night with his son to go caroling, which is a great way to scout out someone's house and neighbors to see if they're home.
Or that he is into sailing and the wrist ligature used sailing knots common to mooring a line.
And as others stated he had private access to JB, and private info like the bonus and the dog not home.
He lived close enough to get there and back unnoticed.
Or that he made a 911 call on the 23rd that would be a great way to test how much time you have for the LE to arrive.

... and he was unable to account for several hours that evening... (said to be sleeping) ... if a person believes that the Rs are not being truthful, why can it not be accepted that others are also not truthful? ... I have good neighbor Fleet and his wife on suspect list for a long time.

[thewhitewitch1]

tww1, you have me confused. I am sure I am just reading this wrong, but if Fleet looked in the cellar and didn't see any body, that would not be any reason for him to suspect they killed her, unless he knew that she had/should have been in there because of something he did. When he looked in the cellar, all he knew was that she had been kidnapped. At that time, there was no indication she had been murdered. So why would he be upset if he didn't see her? You would think if he had nothing to do with the murder, he would be glad to have not found her body in there.

FW looked in the wine cellar early that morning. He did not see JB there.
JR looks in the cellar later and finds her. Ok...you (as FW) know that she was not there earlier because you looked. Wouldn't that make you think that something was terribly wrong with this?
I don't know how this scenerio confused you.
If her body was not there when he looked, that could only mean that someone had moved her body there sometime that morning. That would indicate that the killer was still in the house and 1) already knew where her body was originally put and 2) had enough comfort in the home to risk moving her.
Why would an "outside" killer bother to move her body? I think it's safe to say that the "intruder" didn't make his escape while the LE and all of those people were in the house. So, who moved her body?
You could assume that the cellar was dark and that is why FW didn't see her, but the lights were on in the basement and JR saw her "immediately" before even turning on the lights. I think it's safe to assume that when FW looked, she just wasn't in there at that point in time. IMO

[rashomon]

You could assume that the cellar was dark and that is why FW didn't see her, but the lights were on in the basement and JR saw her "immediately" before even turning on the lights. I think it's safe to assume that when FW looked, she just wasn't in there at that point in time. IMO
Another possibility is that JB had in fact been in there (the body was not right in front of the open door but to the left of it), and FW could not see her. And when John later opened the door, shouting "Oh my God", he didn't "see" her either but simply knew the body was in there.

Steve Thomas and his colleagues later duplicated the scene under exactly the same lighting conditions. The windowless wine cellar was pitch-dark, and neither Gosage nor Thomas could see anything in there.

[Zoey]

FW looked in the wine cellar early that morning. He did not see JB there.
JR looks in the cellar later and finds her. Ok...you (as FW) know that she was not there earlier because you looked. Wouldn't that make you think that something was terribly wrong with this?
I don't know how this scenerio confused you.
If her body was not there when he looked, that could only mean that someone had moved her body there sometime that morning. That would indicate that the killer was still in the house and 1) already knew where her body was originally put and 2) had enough comfort in the home to risk moving her.
Why would an "outside" killer bother to move her body? I think it's safe to say that the "intruder" didn't make his escape while the LE and all of those people were in the house. So, who moved her body?
You could assume that the cellar was dark and that is why FW didn't see her, but the lights were on in the basement and JR saw her "immediately" before even turning on the lights. I think it's safe to assume that when FW looked, she just wasn't in there at that point in time. IMO

I believe, and this is just my opinion, that FW did see her in the cellar, because he knew that was where she was supposed to be. I believe that accounts for a lot of his bizarre behaviour afterwards. He enters the Ramsey home and immediately goes down to the basement, on the pretense that when his own daughter was playing hide and seek, the first place they looked was the basement. Of course, this is just my opinion.

And to be honest, I don't believe that FW murdered JB. I just think he knows an awful lot about what happened that night, and it does not include the Ramseys at all.

I totally respect a lot of what you say thewhitewitch1. I have always thought, that you have some very, good information and ways of looking at things. This is just one thing we don't agree on and that is okay.

[thewhitewitch1]

I believe, and this is just my opinion, that FW did see her in the cellar, because he knew that was where she was supposed to be. I believe that accounts for a lot of his bizarre behaviour afterwards. He enters the Ramsey home and immediately goes down to the basement, on the pretense that when his own daughter was playing hide and seek, the first place they looked was the basement. Of course, this is just my opinion.

And to be honest, I don't believe that FW murdered JB. I just think he knows an awful lot about what happened that night, and it does not include the Ramseys at all.

I totally respect a lot of what you say thewhitewitch1. I have always thought, that you have some very, good information and ways of looking at things. This is just one thing we don't agree on and that is okay.

Thanks, Zoey. I respect what you say too, even if I don't agree with it.

Let me ask you to put yourself in FW's shoes for a minute. If you suspected, with growing horror, that your friend(s) had murderered their own child, how would you react? I would say FW acted appropriately. Like everyone else, he could not prove that the Ramseys did it but I think every action they made confirmed his belief that they did. It is possible that the Whites know some things about the Ramseys that others don't. I believe that is why their deposition has not been made public.
I can think of no reason at all for FW to have been involved in this. There is no evidence and there is no motive.
Why did JR later deny that he and FW ever had a "confrontation" in Atlanta?
I will try to find a link to that for you.

[Zoey]

Thanks, Zoey. I respect what you say too, even if I don't agree with it.

Let me ask you to put yourself in FW's shoes for a minute. If you suspected, with growing horror, that your friend(s) had murderered their own child, how would you react? I would say FW acted appropriately. Like everyone else, he could not prove that the Ramseys did it but I think every action they made confirmed his belief that they did. It is possible that the Whites know some things about the Ramseys that others don't. I believe that is why their deposition has not been made public.
I can think of no reason at all for FW to have been involved in this. There is no evidence and there is no motive.
Why did JR later deny that he and FW ever had a "confrontation" in Atlanta?
I will try to find a link to that for you.

That's okay, I have that link and have read that many a time. It is hard to say why John did not want to admit they had a confrontation, when others stated they had one. I just don't have anything even remotely logical to say about that at the moment.

I have thought about that as well, that maybe FW has stated something in his depositions, and that is why they are sealed. But I had read that FW had a case of "amnesia" when answering questions during one deposition (will find link when I have a minute), so that is another one of those things that make me go hmmmmm. I just don't know why so many things were done the way there were in this case. It is puzzling and frustrating to all of us airmchair detectives in that we don't have all the information that we so need to understand what exactly happened.

I feel the same way about the Ramsey's that you do FW. He acted in a very bizarre way, in my opinion, yet the RDI's claim it was his reaction that makes him seem so innocent. IMO, the Ramsey's acted in a very distraught, shaken, overwhelming manner (for lack of words at the moment), and yet, they are considered by the RDI's to have acted in a manner that shows they are guilty.

My reason for thinking FW may have been involved? Jealousy. It is a very evil emotion that can consume a person. IMO, FW was very jealous of the success that JR had.

[Eagle1]

....................
Why did JR later deny that he and FW ever had a "confrontation" in Atlanta?
I will try to find a link to that for you.

Maybe because people might be alerted that they were into something together and each trying to point the finger at the other? I haven't thought about it so it's not definitely an opinion.

Also I have to go along with whoever said if we're suspicious the R's are always lying, we need to be just as suspicious also of the others. Makes sense, works for me. I don't necessarily believe anything any of them said.
Including FW's claiming he didn't see the body. Maybe so, maybe not.

The whole list of things about his behavior, and the old saying "Where's there's smoke there's fire" about a woman whose psychiatrist had accused him of something before can't be just forgotten, even tho we're making no judgements about him. There they are and not going to go away.

Are some people saying Patsy could have been sort of a ****, at times, because John was away so much, and/or that Nedra may have been one too, "a little bit"? The psychiatrist's patient I believe said her mother had been one. I didn't say any of it, mind you, just asking.

Any "synthoid Steve"? Where's that from? He's a thyroid patient, hypo?

[rashomon]

Any "synthoid Steve"? Where's that from? He's a thyroid patient, hypo?
The poster who who created this inane name probably thinks he is very funny. Somewhat strange for a person (who says he has a chronically ill child at home) to make fun of other people's diseases.

[bullmoose]

Eagle1, the synthroid steve moniker is a nickname I gave Steve Thomas after reading his book; in it he infers that his overwork on the case may have caused his becoming ill with thyroid problems. While I would agree it couldn't have helped, I don't think it was the cause;people, including my wife, come down with thyroid conditions all the time. Thomas tried to get a police pension on that basis, but was turned down; he then wrote a long, snivelly resignation letter to the BPD that blamed everybody else for not seeing the case his way and thereby keeping the case from being solved. IMO, it was a very self-indulgent action; released to the press, it complicated the case for everybody else but him. I am a cranky retired miner, in the mines nicknames are common, so I gave him that one and another, the Twister based on the distortion of facts that IMO pervaded his book. Mind you, I have his book and have read it because he was there and has his opinions and recollections on the case; but I do not take what he writes as gospel truth. But that IMO, and I am an IDI.:biggrin:

[bullmoose]

The poster who who created this inane name probably thinks he is very funny. Somewhat strange for a person (who say he has a chronially ill child at home) to make fun of other people's diseases. Rashoman: I am a cranky retired miner with a miner's sense of humor; I myself have multiple sclerosis, thats why I'm retired. I am not politically correct in my attitudes; in my mind if Steve Thomas was going to make an issue of his thyroid in his Twisterpiece I will, too, but for a laugh. Just because I am dying slowly of MS or because my daughter was born with TEF syndrome and has had continued medical problems all of her twenty years means that I am going to be hypersensitive to the attitude you have towards diseases. I would much rather laugh than cry; IMO Steve Thomas thinks too highly of his abilities as a crimefighter. I am surprised he didn't wear a Superman outfit on the cover of his book; oops, there I go again, now the league of superheroes is going to take issue with me.:biggrin:

[thewhitewitch1]

That's okay, I have that link and have read that many a time. It is hard to say why John did not want to admit they had a confrontation, when others stated they had one. I just don't have anything even remotely logical to say about that at the moment.

I have thought about that as well, that maybe FW has stated something in his depositions, and that is why they are sealed. But I had read that FW had a case of "amnesia" when answering questions during one deposition (will find link when I have a minute), so that is another one of those things that make me go hmmmmm. I just don't know why so many things were done the way there were in this case. It is puzzling and frustrating to all of us airmchair detectives in that we don't have all the information that we so need to understand what exactly happened.

I feel the same way about the Ramsey's that you do FW. He acted in a very bizarre way, in my opinion, yet the RDI's claim it was his reaction that makes him seem so innocent. IMO, the Ramsey's acted in a very distraught, shaken, overwhelming manner (for lack of words at the moment), and yet, they are considered by the RDI's to have acted in a manner that shows they are guilty.

My reason for thinking FW may have been involved? Jealousy. It is a very evil emotion that can consume a person. IMO, FW was very jealous of the success that JR had.

Zoey, if FW was jealous of JR, (which I don't believe), why in the world would he take it out on JonBenet? Having young children of his own, do you really think he could and would have done such a thing? I have no way of knowing for certain but one would think that he would have been very fond of her.
A child killer is a "different kind of species" and I just can't fathom a father being that kind of cold blooded murderer. I suppose it's possible; as anything is possible but I personally doubt it.
How and why do you believe FW was jealous of JR? What indication of that has he ever given to make you think that?

[bullmoose]

FW looked in the wine cellar early that morning. He did not see JB there.
JR looks in the cellar later and finds her. Ok...you (as FW) know that she was not there earlier because you looked. Wouldn't that make you think that something was terribly wrong with this?
I don't know how this scenerio confused you.
If her body was not there when he looked, that could only mean that someone had moved her body there sometime that morning. That would indicate that the killer was still in the house and 1) already knew where her body was originally put and 2) had enough comfort in the home to risk moving her.
Why would an "outside" killer bother to move her body? I think it's safe to say that the "intruder" didn't make his escape while the LE and all of those people were in the house. So, who moved her body?
You could assume that the cellar was dark and that is why FW didn't see her, but the lights were on in the basement and JR saw her "immediately" before even turning on the lights. I think it's safe to assume that when FW looked, she just wasn't in there at that point in time. IMO If you read the account of John Ramsey, you would see that that the light switch for the winecellar was not in the place a person might expect a switch to be; it was eighteen inches further into the room. So John Ramsey, knowing where the switch was, went 11/2 feet further into the room than Fleet White. In my mind this explains why Fleet didn't find Jonbenet and why her father did.Nothing more sinister or complicated was involved, IMO:punch:

[packer48]

tww1, you have me confused. I am sure I am just reading this wrong, but if Fleet looked in the cellar and didn't see any body, that would not be any reason for him to suspect they killed her, unless he knew that she had/should have been in there because of something he did. When he looked in the cellar, all he knew was that she had been kidnapped. At that time, there was no indication she had been murdered. So why would he be upset if he didn't see her? You would think if he had nothing to do with the murder, he would be glad to have not found her body in there.

Zoey,

I think what tww1 is trying to say is that he did not see her in that room when he looked. Now.....all of a sudden John finds her in that room.

That would give me pause to maybe think John had returned to the basement at some point and put her in that room.

I think FW knows something happened that night amoung the Ramsey's and he is upset that they lied about it and didn't come clean.

FW knows something!

JMHO

packer

[bullmoose]

I do not agree with you; if he truly knew something that would help LE solve the case, why not share it with them? After all, justice for Jonbenet should come first; unless he is guilty of something equally bad that the Ramseys held over his head, why not spill the beans? To me, IMO, he was and is mentally unstable, and the fact that he didn't see Jonbenet in the room shook him up badly; then the BPD told him he was being fingered by the Ramseys to see what he would say about them; at that point I think he came unhinged, and has remained that way concerning the case until this day.But that's JMHO

[packer48]

Consider this:

FW looked in that room and apparently he was satified that he saw nothing unusual. If it was SO dark that he absolutely could not see anything why wouldn't he investigate further instead of saying nothing was in there?

Even looking into a dark room I would think you'd be able to see a white blanket on the floor, there was light flooding in from the hallway.

JMHO

packer

[thewhitewitch1]

If you read the account of John Ramsey, you would see that that the light switch for the winecellar was not in the place a person might expect a switch to be; it was eighteen inches further into the room. So John Ramsey, knowing where the switch was, went 11/2 feet further into the room than Fleet White. In my mind this explains why Fleet didn't find Jonbenet and why her father did.Nothing more sinister or complicated was involved, IMO:punch:


Except that JR saw her before he entered the room or turned on the light switch. :punch:

[Zoey]

Zoey, if FW was jealous of JR, (which I don't believe), why in the world would he take it out on JonBenet? Having young children of his own, do you really think he could and would have done such a thing? I have no way of knowing for certain but one would think that he would have been very fond of her.
A child killer is a "different kind of species" and I just can't fathom a father being that kind of cold blooded murderer. I suppose it's possible; as anything is possible but I personally doubt it.
How and why do you believe FW was jealous of JR? What indication of that has he ever given to make you think that?

Wait, you are an RDI, but you can't fathom a father being that kind of a cold blooded murderer because it is FW, but you can fathom JR doing this same thing to his daughter????? I can picture FW doing this to one that was not his daughter before I could ever believe JR did it to his own daughter.

FW's money was hand me down money, JR worked and created and built his money up. Perhaps Fleet was jealous of that. It is one of those things that I just have some feeling about as far as FW goes.

It is really hard for me to put in writing what I could talk to you hours about face to face. Never have been good with letter writing, so if things don't come out right, please, ask me to explain and I will do my best.

[bullmoose]

Except that JR saw her before he entered the room or turned on the light switch. :punch:In your opinion, not mine; are your glasses getting foggy?:punch:

[thewhitewitch1]

Wait, you are an RDI, but you can't fathom a father being that kind of a cold blooded murderer because it is FW, but you can fathom JR doing this same thing to his daughter????? I can picture FW doing this to one that was not his daughter before I could ever believe JR did it to his own daughter.

FW's money was hand me down money, JR worked and created and built his money up. Perhaps Fleet was jealous of that. It is one of those things that I just have some feeling about as far as FW goes.

It is really hard for me to put in writing what I could talk to you hours about face to face. Never have been good with letter writing, so if things don't come out right, please, ask me to explain and I will do my best.


It's not that I am saying that JR cold-bloodedly killed his own child. My theory has always been an accident happened. I think Patsy or Burke caused the accident (blow to the head). I think they may have thought she was already dead when she was strangled or maybe they did it to end her suffering because they believed she was near death. They believed just 4 or 5 days later (on CNN) that she was "in a better place". That may have been their self-justification immediately afterwards. Maybe that's how they dealt with it.
Don't feel bad. I don't articulate very well sometimes when I write either. (or talk, for that matter :D ).

[thewhitewitch1]

In your opinion, not mine; are your glasses getting foggy?:punch:

It's not my opinion. I'm sure you've read all of the interviews. Your little "joke" about the glasses is getting stale.

[Zoey]

It's not that I am saying that JR cold-bloodedly killed his own child. My theory has always been an accident happened. I think Patsy or Burke caused the accident (blow to the head). I think they may have thought she was already dead when she was strangled or maybe they did it to end her suffering because they believed she was near death. They believed just 4 or 5 days later (on CNN) that she was "in a better place". That may have been their self-justification immediately afterwards. Maybe that's how they dealt with it.
Don't feel bad. I don't articulate very well sometimes when I write either. (or talk, for that matter :D ).


I understand now. I guess I should have read your earlier posts to see where you sat as far as who did this and how it happened. I was just surprised by your post. Thanks for taking the time to clear that up for me!!

And me, I could talk you leg off and start on the other one. Just can't get those same things to come out through my fingers. Can type over a 100 words a minute, but still have trouble getting my thoughts across so others can understand. :)

[bullmoose]

It's not my opinion. I'm sure you've read all of the interviews. Your little "joke" about the glasses is getting stale.Are you saying that you don't hold that opinion? If not, then why repeat it? Yes, I have read the interviews, too, but I didn't come to the RDI interpretation; I have different lenses and a different viewpoint. How can the glasses joke be getting stale; its only a couple days now;? you've been repeating that smelly old chestnut about how you believe the Ramseys strangled their daughter for a lot longer, don't you agree?:lol:

[KingCoyote]

I tend to agree with Bullmoose...there must be something FW doesn't want known publicly...or could the Ramsey's have made it very clear to FW up front that if FW said anything derogatory against the Ramsey's that they would instantly file slander/libel lawsuits against any public statements he made and that is why everything is kept private? If what FW knew or knows was the truth he would have had some protection under the law unless he made the comments maliciously. I have to agree that FW came "unhinged" over something...I just don't know what. Another one of those puzzles.

Of course I still wonder how John Fernie got to the Ramseys house, possibly ahead of FW, so quickly at 6:00 AM or so when Fernies may have lived some 8-9 miles away or "15 minutes or so from the Stines house" as JR has stated before in his discussion of delivering presents that Christmas night. I am real perplexed at that.

We can all move pretty fast in an emergency but I will post the same thoughts I posted on another thread. Think about it. You get a call at 6:00 AM. Both you and your wife have to get up, get dressed, get your coats out because it is 9 degrees outside, maybe go the the bathroom, get the car started, cover 8-9 miles and get to the house before Officer French (who arrives at 5:59 AM) finishes his initial search and is shown the Ransom Note, go to the back alley, stop your car, get out and go to the patio door and read parts of the RN which is still on the floor maybe 3 feet away from the door. AVERAGING 60 MPH means it takes you 8-9 minutes driving time. AVERAGING 30 MPH means it takes you 16-18 minutes of driving time. I realize it is 6 AM without a lot of traffic but you still have to slow down for stoplights, stop signs, curves and intersections.

So you have a kidnapping, your primary evidence of a kidnapping is a Ransom Note and it isn't shown to the first officer arriving for roughly 15-20 minutes. Or you say that the Officer takes 15-20 minutes to do his first search and the search doesn't go near enough to the Ransom Note to warrant stopping and picking it up...even on the edges to read it?

People sure seem to be moving awfully, awfully fast if you ask me. It's possible but only if you are moving at full speed at all times.

Just a few thoughts and questions.

KingCoyote

[Zoey]

I tend to agree with Bullmoose...there must be something FW doesn't want known publicly...or could the Ramsey's have made it very clear to FW up front that if FW said anything derogatory against the Ramsey's that they would instantly file slander/libel lawsuits against any public statements he made and that is why everything is kept private? If what FW knew or knows was the truth he would have had some protection under the law unless he made the comments maliciously. I have to agree that FW came "unhinged" over something...I just don't know what. Another one of those puzzles.

Of course I still wonder how John Fernie got to the Ramseys house, possibly ahead of FW, so quickly at 6:00 AM or so when Fernies may have lived some 8-9 miles away or "15 minutes or so from the Stines house" as JR has stated before in his discussion of delivering presents that Christmas night. I am real perplexed at that.

We can all move pretty fast in an emergency but I will post the same thoughts I posted on another thread. Think about it. You get a call at 6:00 AM. Both you and your wife have to get up, get dressed, get your coats out because it is 9 degrees outside, maybe go the the bathroom, get the car started, cover 8-9 miles and get to the house before Officer French (who arrives at 5:59 AM) finishes his initial search and is shown the Ransom Note, go to the back alley, stop your car, get out and go to the patio door and read parts of the RN which is still on the floor maybe 3 feet away from the door. AVERAGING 60 MPH means it takes you 8-9 minutes driving time. AVERAGING 30 MPH means it takes you 16-18 minutes of driving time. I realize it is 6 AM without a lot of traffic but you still have to slow down for stoplights, stop signs, curves and intersections.

So you have a kidnapping, your primary evidence of a kidnapping is a Ransom Note and it isn't shown to the first officer arriving for roughly 15-20 minutes. Or you say that the Officer takes 15-20 minutes to do his first search and the search doesn't go near enough to the Ransom Note to warrant stopping and picking it up...even on the edges to read it?

People sure seem to be moving awfully, awfully fast if you ask me. It's possible but only if you are moving at full speed at all times.

Just a few thoughts and questions.

KingCoyote


KC, I like your thoughts here, as I have wondered the same thing for a very long time, but as of yet, have not been able to come up with anything even worth posting on how this could come to be.

[shill]

Zoey, if FW was jealous of JR, (which I don't believe), why in the world would he take it out on JonBenet? Having young children of his own, do you really think he could and would have done such a thing? I have no way of knowing for certain but one would think that he would have been very fond of her.
A child killer is a "different kind of species" and I just can't fathom a father being that kind of cold blooded murderer. I suppose it's possible; as anything is possible but I personally doubt it.
How and why do you believe FW was jealous of JR? What indication of that has he ever given to make you think that?

How do these rules apply to FW and not JR?

[shill]

FW stuffs her in the wine seller. He's doesn't want to be the one to find her so naturally he is going to say he didn't see her. No one cross examined him about this.
It was later in the day when JR found her and light coming in through the basement windows should be stronger and illluminate more then earlier.FW stuffs her in the wine seller. He's doesn't want to be the one to find her so naturally he is going to say he didn't see her. No one cross-examined him about this.
It was later in the day when JR found her and light coming in through the basement windows should be stronger and illuminate more then earlier.

[rashomon]

Wait, you are an RDI, but you can't fathom a father being that kind of a cold blooded murderer because it is FW, but you can fathom JR doing this same thing to his daughter????? I can picture FW doing this to one that was not his daughter before I could ever believe JR did it to his own daughter.

FW's money was hand me down money, JR worked and created and built his money up. Perhaps Fleet was jealous of that. It is one of those things that I just have some feeling about as far as FW goes.

It is really hard for me to put in writing what I could talk to you hours about face to face. Never have been good with letter writing, so if things don't come out right, please, ask me to explain and I will do my best.
This case is not about murder imo - it is about manslaughter (rage attack) followed by obstruction of justice.

[rashomon]

Rashoman: I am a cranky retired miner with a miner's sense of humor; I myself have multiple sclerosis, thats why I'm retired. I am not politically correct in my attitudes; in my mind if Steve Thomas was going to make an issue of his thyroid in his Twisterpiece I will, too, but for a laugh. Just because I am dying slowly of MS or because my daughter was born with TEF syndrome and has had continued medical problems all of her twenty years means that I am going to be hypersensitive to the attitude you have towards diseases. I would much rather laugh than cry;
Ah, I see clearer now. For laughing under adverse circumstances is a so-called defense mechanism which allows people to carry on. I can understand that miners have lot of nicknames and probably also joke a lot, for their job is a dangerous one. Very interesting from the psychological point of view.

I'm sorry to hear about your condition Bullmoose. We hardly ever agree in the discussion here, especially about Steve Thomas whom I see totally different than you see him, but debate is part of a discussion forum. I wish you all the best and that you may never lose your fighting spirit.

[thewhitewitch1]

FW stuffs her in the wine seller. He's doesn't want to be the one to find her so naturally he is going to say he didn't see her. No one cross examined him about this.
It was later in the day when JR found her and light coming in through the basement windows should be stronger and illluminate more then earlier.FW stuffs her in the wine seller. He's doesn't want to be the one to find her so naturally he is going to say he didn't see her. No one cross-examined him about this.
It was later in the day when JR found her and light coming in through the basement windows should be stronger and illuminate more then earlier.

Why would FW tell LE he even looked in the wine cellar if he put JB there?
He didn't even have to show up at the Ramseys when they called him. If I killed their kid, I'd want to be as far away from the scene as possible especially when the cops got there.
So you think that FW came into the Ramsey home after they went to bed, fed JB pineapple, took her downstairs and murderered her and then wrote the ransom note...all without fear of being detected?
Again, I don't understand what his motive would be. There is no indication that he was "jealous" of JR or that he hated him. That is no evidence to back that up.
Where is the physical evidence linking him to the crime?

[Zoey]

Why would FW tell LE he even looked in the wine cellar if he put JB there?
He didn't even have to show up at the Ramseys when they called him. If I killed their kid, I'd want to be as far away from the scene as possible especially when the cops got there.
So you think that FW came into the Ramsey home after they went to bed, fed JB pineapple, took her downstairs and murderered her and then wrote the ransom note...all without fear of being detected?
Again, I don't understand what his motive would be. There is no indication that he was "jealous" of JR or that he hated him. That is no evidence to back that up.
Where is the physical evidence linking him to the crime?

Killers sometime lead the search for the party they have killed. Remember Scott Peterson? He was right there, putting up flyers, talking on national TV, manning the tip lines.

My ex - BIL was shot to death on Father's Day setting up camp for his family to join him for a camping vacation. He truck was stolen, but found on the other side of the mountain out of gas. The man that shot him and stole his truck was the one that called 911 to report the murder, spent time at my ex-SIL's house consoling her and the family. Went on the local news and radio stations. The local hick town cops had no idea how to investigate this murder. When it was finally discovered that this guy had murdered my ex-BIL, the whole town was shocked that this guy had anything to do with it. He was shot to death over a $20.00 part that my ex-BIL had bought from a junk yard, and this guy claimed he had stolen it.

My point, FW very well could have killed JB, and wanted to be there to see how this whole investigation went. For some killers, it is the thrill of, will I be caught or won't I. But as I have said, I don't think FW killed little JB, but he may have been involved. IMO, there are two people involved in this murder, the mastermind behind it and the actual killer. But this is just my opinion.

[LindaA]

Ever hear the old saying, "The fox is often the finder"?

[Zoey]

Ever hear the old saying, "The fox is often the finder"?


Good saying.

[LindaA]

And, of course, it could also be applied to JR's finding of the body -- if you think he's guilty.

[rashomon]

I tend to agree with Bullmoose...there must be something FW doesn't want known publicly...or could the Ramsey's have made it very clear to FW up front that if FW said anything derogatory against the Ramsey's that they would instantly file slander/libel lawsuits against any public statements he made and that is why everything is kept private? If what FW knew or knows was the truth he would have had some protection under the law unless he made the comments maliciously. I have to agree that FW came "unhinged" over something...I just don't know what. Another one of those puzzles.

KingCoyote
I think the Whites have lost faith in the Boulder DA's office who let the Ramseys get away with it, and have the feeling that info provided by them which would incriminate the Ramseys might be purposely ignored by Mary Lacy, who is a Ramsey suppporter.
Which is also the reason why the Whites wrote their compelling letter in which they damanded that this case be handed over to an independent prosecutor.
And KingCoyote, the reason you mentioned may play a role too: The Whites don't want to be dragged into a lawsuit by the notoriously litigious Ramseys.

Why would Fleet White demand an independent prosecutor if the was guilty? If I was guilty, this would be the last thing I'd ask for.

[Zoey]

I think the Whites have lost faith in the Boulder DA's office who let the Ramseys get away with it, and have the feeling that info provided by them which would incriminate the Ramseys might be purposely ignored by Mary Lacy, who is a Ramsey suppporter.
Which is also the reason why the Whites wrote their compelling letter in which they damanded that this case be handed over to an independent prosecutor.
And KingCoyote, the reason you mentioned may play a role too: The Whites don't want to be dragged into a lawsuit by the notoriously litigious Ramseys.

Why would Fleet White demand an independent prosecutor if the was guilty? If I was guilty, this would be the last thing I'd ask for.


But didn't the Ramsey's demand a trial? In one of Patsy's interview did she not say, if you think we are guilty, then take us to trial? IMO, they would not have done this if they were guilty.

[rashomon]

But didn't the Ramsey's demand a trial? In one of Patsy's interview did she not say, if you think we are guilty, then take us to trial? IMO, they would not have done this if they were guilty.
Oh, I'd interpret that more as a "catch me if you can" kind of statement by Patsy, thumbing her nose at LE.

[KingCoyote]

Since this is a thread which seems to entertain discussions about people other than the Ramseys, I would like to know a little bit about Don Paugh, the father of PR. Anyone can feel free to correct me if I make a wrong assumption.

Apparently he and Nedra were at the 12/23 party but must have returned to Atlanta before the murder as I see no mention of them in Boulder on the 26th or the memorial service on the 29th. Pam and Polly, sisters, do come to Boulder on the 26th but not the parents, possibly because they just came back from Boulder and sent Pam/Polly as family.

I also find very little reference to Don Paugh, other than in connection with Access Graphics, and almost no familial references to Don Paugh by PR in her book. I do remember that there was some routine investigation of PR and her sisters possibly being victims of childhood abuse but that apparently turned up nothing.

Nedra seemed to have been the more vocal of the parents and Don may simply be an unassuming, quiet business type. Can anyone give me some info as to his personal relationships with PR and JBR, if any? Is there some discussions in the books written and I just missed it?

Thanks,

KingCoyote

[shill]

Why would FW tell LE he even looked in the wine cellar if he put JB there?
Maybe he was hoping for a chance to get rid of the body, second guessing himself about leaving it in the house knowing that they would find it and know it wasn't a kidnapping, which would have gone unsolved if he had buried the body.
Or it was another way of pointing suspicion on John.

He didn't even have to show up at the Ramseys when they called him. If I killed their kid, I'd want to be as far away from the scene as possible especially when the cops got there.
If your plan was to take her from the home originally, leaving the body would be a B-plan formed out of panic and that may mean he left some loose ends. This was an opportunity for him to double check everything and see what LE was thinking.

So you think that FW came into the Ramsey home after they went to bed, fed JB pineapple, took her downstairs and murderered her and then wrote the ransom note...all without fear of being detected?You've read my posts on the pineapple and you should know that in no way do I think the killer fed her pineapple, even if the killer is believed to be Patsy.
Why fear being detected, he knows how long LE takes to respond to a 911 call from the house, and he knows his way around the house and neighborhood.


Again, I don't understand what his motive would be. There is no indication that he was "jealous" of JR or that he hated him. That is no evidence to back that up.
Where is the physical evidence linking him to the crime?

I wrote Shapiro once and asked him some questions. He points to previous sexual molestation as the motive and that a suspect would be someone with access to alone time with JB.
IMO Fleet knowing where to find the note pad and the boating knots used for the ligature connects him to the evidence.

[thewhitewitch1]

Ever hear the old saying, "The fox is often the finder"?

I've never heard that saying...but who actually did "find" her? So I guess that could apply to JR as well, right?

Oops, LindaA...you've already said that.

[thewhitewitch1]

Maybe he was hoping for a chance to get rid of the body, second guessing himself about leaving it in the house knowing that they would find it and know it wasn't a kidnapping, which would have gone unsolved if he had buried the body.
Or it was another way of pointing suspicion on John.

If your plan was to take her from the home originally, leaving the body would be a B-plan formed out of panic and that may mean he left some loose ends. This was an opportunity for him to double check everything and see what LE was thinking.
You've read my posts on the pineapple and you should know that in no way do I think the killer fed her pineapple, even if the killer is believed to be Patsy.
Why fear being detected, he knows how long LE takes to respond to a 911 call from the house, and he knows his way around the house and neighborhood.



I wrote Shapiro once and asked him some questions. He points to previous sexual molestation as the motive and that a suspect would be someone with access to alone time with JB.
IMO Fleet knowing where to find the note pad and the boating knots used for the ligature connects him to the evidence.


Ok...valid points but why would it make a difference what 911's response time is? You are thinking if the Ramseys heard him and called the police? What if they saw him? Then what?
I just don't think he would have taken that chance. I don't believe he would have risked everything to act out some jealousy motive by killing anyones kid.
That's too far fetched for me to imagine. He'd have to have a screw loose to do something like that. IMO
JR had more "alone time" with JB, knew where the note pad was and I am certain knew boating knots whether he claimed he didn't or not.
I would not call those things "evidence" against FW. I look at it as evidence against JR when I look at the bigger picture. IMO

[KingCoyote]

I've never heard that saying...but who actually did "find" her? So I guess that could apply to JR as well, right?

Oops, LindaA...you've already said that.

tww1:

When you put the word find in parentheses I got to thinking...which is somewhat dangerous but....there was a statement in ST paperback that said JR told Stewart Long, Melinda's fiancee as they were leaving the Ramsey house that he "found" her at 11:00AM. What if that is actually the truth...that JR was in the middle of a traumatic unfolding event and slipped and actually admitted he did "find" her because he had no idea where JBR was and all of his movements were truly looking for JBR because he is the most confused of all that morning because he hasn't got a clue what happened? Maybe he has nothing to do with this whole thing other than sensing that the BPD will very well be coming after both him and PR and all he has been doing is following PR's lead and/or trying to protect her.

You know, come to think of it, he has never made any statement that I am aware of as to the RN being on the stairs....maybe he never saw it there because it was never there...only PR really knew where the RN was and it wasn't on the stairs....(I know this sounds like I have totally become PDI but I am just thinking out loud with a new idea...not coming to absolute conclusions that PR did anything but actually I might be exculpating JR from any knowledge of or involvement in the crime.)

I am going to have to think about this one some more.... :confused:

Just some off the cuff ideas,

KingCoyote

[thewhitewitch1]

tww1:

When you put the word find in parentheses I got to thinking...which is somewhat dangerous but....there was a statement in ST paperback that said JR told Stewart Long, Melinda's fiancee as they were leaving the Ramsey house that he "found" her at 11:00AM. What if that is actually the truth...that JR was in the middle of a traumatic unfolding event and slipped and actually admitted he did "find" her because he had no idea where JBR was and all of his movements were truly looking for JBR because he is the most confused of all that morning because he hasn't got a clue what happened? Maybe he has nothing to do with this whole thing other than sensing that the BPD will very well be coming after both him and PR and all he has been doing is following PR's lead and/or trying to protect her.

You know, come to think of it, he has never made any statement that I am aware of as to the RN being on the stairs....maybe he never saw it there because it was never there...only PR really knew where the RN was and it wasn't on the stairs....(I know this sounds like I have totally become PDI but I am just thinking out loud with a new idea...not coming to absolute conclusions that PR did anything but actually I might be exculpating JR from any knowledge of or involvement in the crime.)

I am going to have to think about this one some more.... :confused:

Just some off the cuff ideas,

KingCoyote


Are you saying that maybe he found her at 11:00 a.m. and then "re-found" her again at 1:00? If so, why didn't he tell anyone when he first found her?
I believe you are right about the ransom note but that is a grey area because he consistantly changes his story about where it was when he first saw it. At times he says Patsy handed it to him and other times he has it spread out on the floor without ever saying how it got there to begin with.
I don't think even Patsy has kept her story straight on that one. :confused:

[Zoey]

tww1:

When you put the word find in parentheses I got to thinking...which is somewhat dangerous but....there was a statement in ST paperback that said JR told Stewart Long, Melinda's fiancee as they were leaving the Ramsey house that he "found" her at 11:00AM. What if that is actually the truth...that JR was in the middle of a traumatic unfolding event and slipped and actually admitted he did "find" her because he had no idea where JBR was and all of his movements were truly looking for JBR because he is the most confused of all that morning because he hasn't got a clue what happened? Maybe he has nothing to do with this whole thing other than sensing that the BPD will very well be coming after both him and PR and all he has been doing is following PR's lead and/or trying to protect her.

You know, come to think of it, he has never made any statement that I am aware of as to the RN being on the stairs....maybe he never saw it there because it was never there...only PR really knew where the RN was and it wasn't on the stairs....(I know this sounds like I have totally become PDI but I am just thinking out loud with a new idea...not coming to absolute conclusions that PR did anything but actually I might be exculpating JR from any knowledge of or involvement in the crime.)

I am going to have to think about this one some more.... :confused:

Just some off the cuff ideas,

KingCoyote

I always seriously wondered if JR actually did find JB at 11:00, and left her hoping someone else would find her so that the accusations would not fall on him. Perhaps his thought process was, with that many cops at his home, someone else would surely come down to the basement and find her. Just some thoughts I have had as well.

[thewhitewitch1]

I always seriously wondered if JR actually did find JB at 11:00, and left her hoping someone else would find her so that the accusations would not fall on him. Perhaps his thought process was, with that many cops at his home, someone else would surely come down to the basement and find her. Just some thoughts I have had as well.


If he had found her earlier and didn't say anything for the reason you gave, why would he pick her up and carry her upstairs when he "re-found" her later?
If he had found her earlier, he had to have known she was dead so why disturb the crime scene that way?

[Zoey]

If he had found her earlier and didn't say anything for the reason you gave, why would he pick her up and carry her upstairs when he "re-found" her later?
If he had found her earlier, he had to have known she was dead so why disturb the crime scene that way?


This is another one of those, hard for me to explain in writing, but my thoughts run along the lines of, when he went down to the basement, he found her. He was so shaken by what he had found, as this is what he had expected to find with all the clues that had been given in the ransom note.

He found her at 11:00. He then comes back upstairs and waits and waits for someone, anyone, to go back down there and find her. Finally, at 1:00 when Linda directs him and Fleet to go downstairs, he, as you call it, re-finds her, and takes her upstairs.

I am not saying this is at all probably or possibly. It is just my thoughts.

[KingCoyote]

Are you saying that maybe he found her at 11:00 a.m. and then "re-found" her again at 1:00? If so, why didn't he tell anyone when he first found her?
I believe you are right about the ransom note but that is a grey area because he consistantly changes his story about where it was when he first saw it. At times he says Patsy handed it to him and other times he has it spread out on the floor without ever saying how it got there to begin with.
I don't think even Patsy has kept her story straight on that one. :confused:

tww1:

I can only speculate that the reason he didn't tell anyone is because he just didn't know what the heck to do...maybe another earlier post is correct...he just thought...come on...somebody find her....and when he was forced to "find" her maybe he thought making a big production out of it would take thoughts away from him having any part of it....I really don't know...I am kind of winging it right now.

KC

[shill]

Ok...valid points but why would it make a difference what 911's response time is? You are thinking if the Ramseys heard him and called the police? What if they saw him? Then what?
I just don't think he would have taken that chance. I don't believe he would have risked everything to act out some jealousy motive by killing anyones kid.
That's too far fetched for me to imagine. He'd have to have a screw loose to do something like that. IMO
JR had more "alone time" with JB, knew where the note pad was and I am certain knew boating knots whether he claimed he didn't or not.
I would not call those things "evidence" against FW. I look at it as evidence against JR when I look at the bigger picture. IMO
How about the fact that FW's DNA match was inconclusive when everyone else’s DNA was not a match.
And FW comes from Old Oil Money. Old money always has more political clout then New Money. His father built the business and you need a lot of political ties to get permission for drilling rights and all the other things needed for big business in the oil industry. I'm looking to see if he has ties to the Bushes.
If anyone could pull off a cover up, it would be the Whites and their old wealth. Funny how so much of FW's statements and testimony are sealed. Someone pulled some strings.

[bullmoose]

tww1:

When you put the word find in parentheses I got to thinking...which is somewhat dangerous but....there was a statement in ST paperback that said JR told Stewart Long, Melinda's fiancee as they were leaving the Ramsey house that he "found" her at 11:00AM. What if that is actually the truth...that JR was in the middle of a traumatic unfolding event and slipped and actually admitted he did "find" her because he had no idea where JBR was and all of his movements were truly looking for JBR because he is the most confused of all that morning because he hasn't got a clue what happened? Maybe he has nothing to do with this whole thing other than sensing that the BPD will very well be coming after both him and PR and all he has been doing is following PR's lead and/or trying to protect her.

You know, come to think of it, he has never made any statement that I am aware of as to the RN being on the stairs....maybe he never saw it there because it was never there...only PR really knew where the RN was and it wasn't on the stairs....(I know this sounds like I have totally become PDI but I am just thinking out loud with a new idea...not coming to absolute conclusions that PR did anything but actually I might be exculpating JR from any knowledge of or involvement in the crime.)

I am going to have to think about this one some more.... :confused:

Just some off the cuff ideas,

KingCoyoteWhat page in Steve Thomas' paperback was that quote on? I have it and can find nothing of the sort anywhere I've looked; I don't recall ever having heard that one before, even in Thomas' book, which I do not hold in high regard. Please post the page you are talking of.

[Zoey]

What page in Steve Thomas' paperback was that quote on? I have it and can find nothing of the sort anywhere I've looked; I don't recall ever having heard that one before, even in Thomas' book, which I do not hold in high regard. Please post the page you are talking of.




Vanity Fair magazine told us this: "John Ramsey's children from his first marriage, Melinda, 25, and John Andrew, 21, along with Melinda's boyfriend, Stewart Long, arrived at the Ramsey house at 7:55 p.m. on December 26. Ramsey ran to the curb to meet them. Long, a medical school graduate, told police that Ramsey had said that "JonBenet had gone to heaven," and that he had found her body at 11 a.m."

Vanity Fair mentioned that John Andrew and Long refused to comment regarding the statement above.

[bullmoose]

Vanity Fair magazine told us this: "John Ramsey's children from his first marriage, Melinda, 25, and John Andrew, 21, along with Melinda's boyfriend, Stewart Long, arrived at the Ramsey house at 7:55 p.m. on December 26. Ramsey ran to the curb to meet them. Long, a medical school graduate, told police that Ramsey had said that "JonBenet had gone to heaven," and that he had found her body at 11 a.m."

Vanity Fair mentioned that John Andrew and Long refused to comment regarding the statement above.
Okay, now I know that not even Steve Thomas made such a claim; his version doesn't even hint at it ever happening. What Vanity Fair issue was it; and what pages was the article on? Who was the author? Do you know that Steve Thomas' version on page 35 of his book says that the Ramseys left the house at 2:15PM , moreover he says Melinda, John Andrew and Stewart Long
had already arrived from the Denver Airport by taxi. Steve Thomas says nothing of John Ramsey running to the curb to meet them. It sounds to me like Vanity Fair ran a tabloid article, but give me the dates and info and Ill read their whole article before I come out and call it journalistic fantasy writing.

[KingCoyote]

Bullmoose:

See ST Paperback Pages 156-157

KingCoyote

[Louisadelmar]

Okay, now I know that not even Steve Thomas made such a claim; his version doesn't even hint at it ever happening. What Vanity Fair issue was it; and what pages was the article on? Who was the author? Do you know that Steve Thomas' version on page 35 of his book says that the Ramseys left the house at 2:15PM , moreover he says Melinda, John Andrew and Stewart Long
had already arrived from the Denver Airport by taxi. Steve Thomas says nothing of John Ramsey running to the curb to meet them. It sounds to me like Vanity Fair ran a tabloid article, but give me the dates and info and Ill read their whole article before I come out and call it journalistic fantasy writing.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09161997vanityfair.htm

[nuisanceposter]

<snip>

I'm looking to see if he has ties to the Bushes.


I don't know about the Whites and the Bushes, but JR had ties to the Democrats and the Clintons. I've always found that to be suspicious. The Rs were very well-connected, and it has served them well for the past decade. Here's a great source for some info on who knew who, even the Whites.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/6d/6degsources.html

[rashomon]

Why would FW tell LE he even looked in the wine cellar if he put JB there?

Excellent question TWW!

[thewhitewitch1]

How about the fact that FW's DNA match was inconclusive when everyone else’s DNA was not a match.
And FW comes from Old Oil Money. Old money always has more political clout then New Money. His father built the business and you need a lot of political ties to get permission for drilling rights and all the other things needed for big business in the oil industry. I'm looking to see if he has ties to the Bushes.
If anyone could pull off a cover up, it would be the Whites and their old wealth. Funny how so much of FW's statements and testimony are sealed. Someone pulled some strings.


I know how you hate to provide links but I have never heard that FW's DNA was "inconclusive" and would like to read that for myself. How can DNA be inconclusive? It either matches or it doesn't, right? :confused:

[nuisanceposter]

I know how you hate to provide links but I have never heard that FW's DNA was "inconclusive" and would like to read that for myself. How can DNA be inconclusive? It either matches or it doesn't, right? :confused:

I've never heard that either and was wondering about it as well, so I'm glad you asked, TWW. The only way the DNA could be inconclusive, in my thinking, is if there isn't enough markers to make a conclusive match...in which case the foreign DNA found on JonBenet wouldn't be able to make a conclusive match to anyone, not just FW.

[elvislives]

This case is not about murder imo - it is about manslaughter (rage attack) followed by obstruction of justice.

I disagree. If I were prosecuting the Ramseys, I would charge them with first degree murder (as well as obstruction of justice and a whole slew of other charges). She died of ligature strangulation and that was definitely premeditated...even if it was only a few minutes before. I would also argue that the blow to the head was delivered with such severe force, that it too rises to the level of premeditated murder. I am sure a defense attorney would argue that the head blow was "accidental" and the strangulation occurred after they thought she was dead, and since you cant kill a dead body, they are only guilty of staging. If I were sitting on a jury and the DA had irrefutable evidence of the Ramsey's guilt, I would convict them of First degree murder. JMO

[andU]

This case is not about murder imo - it is about manslaughter (rage attack) followed by obstruction of justice.

If you want to file obstruction of justice charges, IMO, a few PO should be charged, as well.

[andU]

Ok...valid points but why would it make a difference what 911's response time is? You are thinking if the Ramseys heard him and called the police? What if they saw him? Then what?
I just don't think he would have taken that chance. I don't believe he would have risked everything to act out some jealousy motive by killing anyones kid.
That's too far fetched for me to imagine. He'd have to have a screw loose to do something like that. IMO
JR had more "alone time" with JB, knew where the note pad was and I am certain knew boating knots whether he claimed he didn't or not.
I would not call those things "evidence" against FW. I look at it as evidence against JR when I look at the bigger picture. IMO

But, it isn't too far fetched to believe that a parent would leave their child the way JB was found?

[andU]

How about the fact that FW's DNA match was inconclusive when everyone else’s DNA was not a match.
And FW comes from Old Oil Money. Old money always has more political clout then New Money. His father built the business and you need a lot of political ties to get permission for drilling rights and all the other things needed for big business in the oil industry. I'm looking to see if he has ties to the Bushes.
If anyone could pull off a cover up, it would be the Whites and their old wealth. Funny how so much of FW's statements and testimony are sealed. Someone pulled some strings.

Amen! ...and not just the ones around JB's neck!

[andU]

Okay, now I know that not even Steve Thomas made such a claim; his version doesn't even hint at it ever happening. What Vanity Fair issue was it; and what pages was the article on? Who was the author? Do you know that Steve Thomas' version on page 35 of his book says that the Ramseys left the house at 2:15PM , moreover he says Melinda, John Andrew and Stewart Long
had already arrived from the Denver Airport by taxi. Steve Thomas says nothing of John Ramsey running to the curb to meet them. It sounds to me like Vanity Fair ran a tabloid article, but give me the dates and info and Ill read their whole article before I come out and call it journalistic fantasy writing.

Wonder if it could have bee simply a typo?

[bullmoose]

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09161997vanityfair.htmIs there a trick I'm missing? This link doesn't work.

[andU]

Is there a trick I'm missing? This link doesn't work.


Bullmoose, it worked for me.

[bullmoose]

Wonder if it could have bee simply a typo?Sure, a five hour typo boo-boo that no one caught before publication. All I 'm getting on the link is page wont' display; have to try later, I've got to read and compare the accounts.

[rashomon]

I am sure a defense attorney would argue that the head blow was "accidental" and the strangulation occurred after they thought she was dead, and since you cant kill a dead body, they are only guilty of staging. If I were sitting on a jury and the DA had irrefutable evidence of the Ramsey's guilt, I would convict them of First degree murder. JMO
But the problem is that the burden of proof rests with the prosecution, so you as a prosecutor would have to PROVE beyond reasonable doubt to the jury that the Ramseys either
KNEW JonBenet was still alive or
THOUGHT that JonBenet was still alive when they put the cord around her neck. For only then would it be first-degree murder.
And since no prosecutor in the world would be able to prove what the Ramseys were thinking, the jury would have to give the Ramseys the benefit of the doubt ("in dubio pro reo") here.

[Louisadelmar]

Is there a trick I'm missing? This link doesn't work.

It worked for me but try going in through here:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Sources%20Used%20at%20This%20Site

It's the first article listed.

[rashomon]

If you want to file obstruction of justice charges, IMO, a few PO should be charged, as well.
Criminal profiler Gregg McCrary said DA Alex Hunter should have been charged with prosecutorial malfeasance and obstruction of justice.

[elvislives]

But the problem is that the burden of proof rests with the prosecution, so you as a prosecutor would have to PROVE beyond reasonable doubt to the jury that the Ramseys either
KNEW JonBenet was still alive or
THOUGHT that JonBenet was still alive when they put the cord around her neck. For only then would it be first-degree murder.
And since no prosecutor in the world would be able to prove what the Ramseys were thinking, the jury would have to give the Ramseys the benefit of the doubt ("in dubio pro reo") here.

All good points, but if I were prosecuting the first thing I would argue is that the blow to the head was delivered with such extreme force to a six year old that intent was to kill. It is pretty obvious from the autopsy reports that the force was extreme.
Regarding the strangulation, if they claimed they thought she was alive, I would ask "did you take her pulse?" SHe clearly had a pulse at the time of strangulation, hence the petechial hemorrhaging. Maybe they would say, yes we took her pulse and didnt detect one. I would then ask, how long did you wait after the head blow before "staging' the strangulation. Perhaps they would reply 30 seconds, maybe 30 minutes. "And in that 30 minutes or whatever it didn't occur to you to call 911 to see if they could save her?"
All that said, however, I think if the Rs were charged, they would not try to plead to a lesser charge. I think they would plead not guilty and if there were evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of their guilt, I as a juror would convict of first degree murder.JMO although you would probably make a great defense attorney...;)

[bullmoose]

Criminal profiler Gregg McCrary said DA Alex Hunter should have been charged with prosecutorial malfeasance and obstruction of justice.Is Gregg McCrary on the Colorado Association of District Attorneys or perhaps he's on the review committee of the Colorado Bar? If not, then, in my opinion, he's just blowing out his opinion in a grand
gust of hot air. He, of course, is welcome to his opinion just as I am to disagree and to express my opinion of his opinion.:biggrin:

[Sprocket]

Originally Posted by shill
How about the fact that FW's DNA match was inconclusive when everyone else’s DNA was not a match.

Here's the problem with this post. You can't "match" to 9 degraded loci. It doesn't happen in DNA testing. As much as people would like this DNA to "match" to someone, it never will. The reason for this is because it requires 13 loci in CODIS to make a "match." All the degraded DNA can ever do (in reality) is exclude someone. It can never match completely. There is a reason CODIS requires 13 loci. Now "if" (And that's a really big "IF" for something that even DA Mary Lacy herself said could be an artifact~one of the very few intelligent statements she has made aobut this case.) this DNA was "matched" to someone it would never be a match like, oh say 1 in 500 million. Logic tells us it would most likely be a match of much, much lower numbers (For example 1 in 300.) because you have not matched with 13 loci.

I'd like to see a source for this, too, but I doubt one will be provided.

[LindaA]

Wonder if it could have bee simply a typo?

That was my first thought. The difference is very small and hard to see.

[shill]

I know how you hate to provide links but I have never heard that FW's DNA was "inconclusive" and would like to read that for myself. How can DNA be inconclusive? It either matches or it doesn't, right? :confused:

I think Tober has the link, let me check.

[bullmoose]

Is there a trick I'm missing? This link doesn't work.Finally, the link worked for me, it must have been my computer; still in a way its too bad I got to read it, it is a vicious hack job so filled with lies and fabrication, with our favorite unnamed source pouring little nasty jibes in. The writers in the Globe and the Enquirer would have been proud of such an effort, IMO.

[bullmoose]

Okay, now I know that not even Steve Thomas made such a claim; his version doesn't even hint at it ever happening. What Vanity Fair issue was it; and what pages was the article on? Who was the author? Do you know that Steve Thomas' version on page 35 of his book says that the Ramseys left the house at 2:15PM , moreover he says Melinda, John Andrew and Stewart Long
had already arrived from the Denver Airport by taxi. Steve Thomas says nothing of John Ramsey running to the curb to meet them. It sounds to me like Vanity Fair ran a tabloid article, but give me the dates and info and Ill read their whole article before I come out and call it journalistic fantasy writing. Now I've checked out the link that King Coyote gave me in the Steve Thomas' book on pages 156 and 157. At this place in his book, Steve Thomas claims that JAR and Melinda Ramsey and her boyfriend Stewart Long arrived back in Boulder at 1PM or shortly after.Moreover, Thomas claims that Long told him that John Ramsey got in a van with him and told him that Jonbenet was with Beth now. This is an astounding claim inasmuch as at that same time he was inside the house discovering Jonbenet's body; maybe its just another time typo or maybe its literary license. We are to believe that 'Long stepped foward with this information' as Thomas puts it' in an undated telephone interview that John told him at or right after 1PM MST that he found Jonbenet at 11AM MST, or so he assumed, since Boulder was on MST. Thomas says it blew him away; thats not hard to imagine, given that Long wasn't yet there and Jonbenet hadn't been found yet; at the very least it seems to be another case of nonexisting fact check on Steve's part.On page 35 it was 2:35PM when they got there and not a mention of what would be an astounding admission of JR, but on pages 156 and 157 the time shifts to 1PM which of course is impossible. I've read the Vanity Fare article now and I fail to see any reference in it stating that JR ran to the van at 7:55 to make an astounding admission contradicting himself as to when he found Jonbenet. The 11AM story, IMHO opinion is just a wishful fantasy to try to make a liar and murderer or conspirator out of John Ramsey. I don't believe it,at all.:rolleyes:

[elvislives]

I think the Whites have lost faith in the Boulder DA's office who let the Ramseys get away with it, and have the feeling that info provided by them which would incriminate the Ramseys might be purposely ignored by Mary Lacy, who is a Ramsey suppporter.
Which is also the reason why the Whites wrote their compelling letter in which they damanded that this case be handed over to an independent prosecutor.
And KingCoyote, the reason you mentioned may play a role too: The Whites don't want to be dragged into a lawsuit by the notoriously litigious Ramseys.

Why would Fleet White demand an independent prosecutor if the was guilty? If I was guilty, this would be the last thing I'd ask for.

I couldnt agree more. If FW is guilty, he should be happy with the status quo...no one has been charged, and most people think the Ramseys did it. All he'd have to do is lie low and get on with his life--he got away with murder. Why try and bring an independent prosecutor in to rock the boat? What if they figure out he did it? I know there are many people here who have FW high on their suspect list. I just dont agree.

[nuisanceposter]

I think Tober has the link, let me check.

Tober, do you have a link that states FW's DNA test result was inconclusive? Anyone? I did find this:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Intruder%20Theories

DNA Inconclusive. Internet poster Mame. claims to have sources who told her JW was NOT excluded based on DNA; instead the effort to match his DNA was "inconclusive."


It should be noted that other JBR enthusiasts feel that Mame is incorrect in general and has some long-standing grudge against FW, frequently accusing him of being the killer without solid proof. It does not appear that Mame has any proof other than claiming she was told by a source she does not divulge.

Just cause Mame said it don't make it so. I need more proof that her claim that FW's DNA test was inconclusive is indeed correct. Mame is known to buy into the Krebs theory that FW is a child molester...however, many IDI tend to conveniently overlook the fact that Krebs also said John Ramsey is a child molester as well.

Same link from Miss Marple's wiki -

Was Story Fabricated? Internet poster The Punisher has done extensive research on Lee Hill and Ward Churchill and concluded that the Nancy Krebs story was a fabrication to discredit the FBI.


I'm familiar with The Punisher, and have found his information to be solid and factual throughout my research on the JBR case.

[andU]

Sorry, I hit the enter key too soon

[Eagle1]

And me, I could talk you leg off and start on the other one. Just can't get those same things to come out through my fingers. Can type over a 100 words a minute, but still have trouble getting my thoughts across so others can understand. :) Me too sometimes. In youth, used to type 110 on those heavy old manual machines before electrics came out. Welcome to the club.

But what's this that AndU mentions, a few PO's? This time I'm the one not quite getting it and probably will be embarrassed to find it's something very simple. I'm reading pg 3 again to see if it's explained. Right after the PO's typo's are mentioned.

[Eagle1]

How about the fact that FW's DNA match was inconclusive when everyone else’s DNA was not a match.
And FW comes from Old Oil Money. Old money always has more political clout then New Money. His father built the business and you need a lot of political ties to get permission for drilling rights and all the other things needed for big business in the oil industry. ........
If anyone could pull off a cover up, it would be the Whites and their old wealth. Funny how so much of FW's statements and testimony are sealed. Someone pulled some strings.

Could be. Whenever I mention that one of those INTERNATIONAL rings was busted in Boulder before the Ramsey case, but they may not have gotten all of them, this is sort of what I'm thinking of too. Can anyone still find anything about that on the internet? I can't. Just some thoughts. Not stating a definite theory.

[Eagle1]

How about the fact that FW's DNA match was inconclusive when everyone else’s DNA was not a match.
And FW comes from Old Oil Money. Old money always has more political clout then New Money. His father built the business and you need a lot of political ties to get permission for drilling rights and all the other things needed for big business in the oil industry. ........
If anyone could pull off a cover up, it would be the Whites and their old wealth. Funny how so much of FW's statements and testimony are sealed. Someone pulled some strings.

Could be. Whenever I mention that one of those INTERNATIONAL rings was busted in Boulder before the Ramsey case, but they may not have gotten all of them, this is sort of what I'm thinking of too. Can anyone still find anything about that on the internet? I can't. Just some thoughts. Not stating a definite theory. I'd have many.

[Zoey]

Me too sometimes. In youth, used to type 110 on those heavy old manual machines before electrics came out. Welcome to the club.

But what's this that AndU mentions, a few PO's? This time I'm the one not quite getting it and probably will be embarrassed to find it's something very simple. I'm reading pg 3 again to see if it's explained. Right after the PO's typo's are mentioned.

I'm gonna guess and say PO=Police Officer. That is what we call them where I come from. It took me two months to figure out LE meant Law Enforcement as I had never heard them called that before!

[Eagle1]

I'm gonna guess and say PO=Police Officer. That is what we call them where I come from. It took me two months to figure out LE meant Law Enforcement as I had never heard them called that before!

Yes, that's probably it. Thanks.