Mercy Killing??

[Ames]

I was just wondering how many of you out there, (of course, it would have to be RDI's, or PDI's)...think that after Patsy delivered that fatal blow to JB's head, while in a rage, that she HAD to have heard JB's skull crack. In the autopsy photos, her skull was cracked open like an egg...that would have HAD to have made a horrible sound. Patsy could have heard the crack and JB started convulsing. Patsy knew that the blow was fatal. I don't think that she meant for it to be, but regardless...it was. Anyway, WHAT IF...the strangulation was part of a mercy killing, because Patsy (and maybe John) didn't want to see her suffer. And then the rest of it was a staged cover-up. Its just something that occurred to me, the other day. A mercy killing would make sense as to why they decided to finish her off. (Sorry to be so blunt).

[shill]

I was just wondering how many of you out there, (of course, it would have to be RDI's, or PDI's)...think that after Patsy delivered that fatal blow to JB's head, while in a rage, that she HAD to have heard JB's skull crack. In the autopsy photos, her skull was cracked open like an egg...that would have HAD to have made a horrible sound. Patsy could have heard the crack and JB started convulsing. Patsy knew that the blow was fatal. I don't think that she meant for it to be, but regardless...it was. Anyway, WHAT IF...the stherangulation was part of a mercy killing, because Patsy (and maybe John) didn't want to see her suffer. And then the rest of it was a staged cover-up. Its just something that occurred to me, the other day. A mercy killing would make sense as to why they decided to finish her off. (Sorry to be so blunt).

Well, since you have such a horrible opinion of the Ramseys, I guess this sounds like a caring thing to you for them to do, and therefore possible.
Picking up a phone and pushing 3 buttons would be what loving parents would do. And I believe the Ramseys are loving parents, not monsters.

[LindaA]

Personally I can't see strangling as a mercy killing. I think that if that is what happened initially then I think they would have given her another blow or staged an accidental death scene as I outlined on another thread. Much faster and less ...mmm.. unpleasant for the perps.

[bullmoose]

The garotte strangulation of Jonbenet was not in any way shape or form meant to be merciful, even if one accepts the theory of her skull being fractured first, which I do not. If she had been smothered with a pillow the scenario would be more believable; but she wasn't. Somebody took the time to construct the garotte, with line that has no match in the house and strangled her. If her hyoid bone had been broken it would indicated manual strangulation, but it wasn't broken; in my opinion someone took their time to strangle her just so, and then bashed her skull in to make sure she was dead. Her parents don't fit in anywhere in my theory, other than targeted victims.

[Ames]

Well, since you have such a horrible opinion of the

<snipped>
Picking up a phone and pushing 3 buttons would be what loving parents would do. And I believe the Ramseys are loving parents, not monsters.

Picking up the phone and pushing 3 buttons, would not be an option, if they were the reason that the call had to be made. What would they tell the 911 operator? "Um, yes...I just cracked my daughter's skull like an egg, in a fit of rage, could you please send an ambulance?" I do not think that would go over very well. So, she tried to disquise it, and hopefully stay out of jail...and it worked. Oh yeah, I also said in the first post of this thread...that this would only work in an RDI situation. I didn't expect YOU to go along with this scenario.

[Ames]

The garotte strangulation of Jonbenet was not in any way shape or form meant to be merciful, even if one accepts the theory of her skull being fractured first, which I do not. If she had been smothered with a pillow the scenario would be more believable; but she wasn't. Somebody took the time to construct the garotte, with line that has no match in the house and strangled her. If her hyoid bone had been broken it would indicated manual strangulation, but it wasn't broken; in my opinion someone took their time to strangle her just so, and then bashed her skull in to make sure she was dead. Her parents don't fit in anywhere in my theory, other than targeted victims.

I think that she could have possibly been strangled, first by hand..and then the garotte was used to cover up the marks.

[Ames]

Personally I can't see strangling as a mercy killing. I think that if that is what happened initially then I think they would have given her another blow or staged an accidental death scene as I outlined on another thread. Much faster and less ...mmm.. unpleasant for the perps.

I saw your post on staging an accidental death scene. And I posted back to you, on another thread, that Doctor's can usually figure out how a person got an injury. Like for example...someone bringing in a child with a broken arm, and telling the dr. that the child "fell". Or, shaken baby syndrome...the person that shook the baby is going to lie, so they don't go to jail....trying to come up with another scenario as to why the baby's brains are scrambled....but, the Doctors know that they are lying, because whatever scenario they give, it just doesn't jive or mesh with the injury. I am sure that the doctors would be able to look at JB's head injury, and for some reason, it wouldn't jive with her falling down the stairs. Maybe the skull is cracked in the wrong place, or whatever. The doctors can usually tell though. Ask elvislives...she is an ER doctor...she would know alot more about this than I would.

[shill]

Picking up the phone and pushing 3 buttons, would not be an option, if they were the reason that the call had to be made. What would they tell the 911 operator? "Um, yes...I just cracked my daughter's skull like an egg, in a fit of rage, could you please send an ambulance?" I do not think that would go over very well. So, she tried to disquise it, and hopefully stay out of jail...and it worked. Oh yeah, I also said in the first post of this thread...that this would only work in an RDI situation. I didn't expect YOU to go along with this scenario.

911 is an option.
All I can assume from your comment is that it is not an option for you and if you accidentally killed your child you would cover it up instead of getting help.
Some of us aren't as cold blooded as you are Ames.

[Louisadelmar]

I don't think Ames is coldblooded. She's really just giving us Thomas' theory. I wonder if anyone has asked him, now that he has a child, if he would consider killing his baby because he'd accidently injured her.

[Ames]

911 is an option.
All I can assume from your comment is that it is not an option for you and if you accidentally killed your child you would cover it up instead of getting help.
Some of us aren't as cold blooded as you are Ames.

How DARE you say that about me and my children. You have offended me to the point of no return. (And to think that I PM'd you not too long ago about how nice you have been being lately). I am NOT the one that had a dead daughter in my basement, and the killing happened under my, my husband and son's noses. NOR were the fibers of my jacket, found on the duct tape, entwined in the ligature, the paint tray, AND the blanket. NOR was a fake ransom note found in my house....I could go ON AND ON AND ON. IF all the above could be said of ME....THEN...and ONLY THEN would you have the right to call me cold blooded (and you could add the word killer).....because THATS what I would be. I cannot BELIEVE that you said that if I had accidently killed my child, I would cover it up instead of getting help. You are as wrong as hell about that....because, I would WANT to get help. Obviously....with all of that evidence....fibers...etc. Patsy chose not to. (If there were not so many things pointing toward Patsy's direction, I would say...sure, she would have called for help. But to me, the evidence points directly at Patsy lashing out in a rage, and trying to cover it up. BUT, that has nothing to do with me.

[Ames]

I don't think Ames is coldblooded. She's really just giving us Thomas' theory. I wonder if anyone has asked him, now that he has a child, if he would consider killing his baby because he'd accidently injured her.

Thanks for saying that you don't think that I am coldblooded. Geez...I am just looking at the evidence here. I believe that she injured her, with the head blow...and that JB was convulsing. Now I would have called 911, and risked going to jail....but, I think that Patsy didn't want to see JB suffer....AND she feared telling the truth of the rage filled head blow...and didn't want to go to prison. So, she thought that she would stage a cover up and hope for the best.

[Ames]

Bruce Levin: To Lin Wood – “We believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet’s neck, were found on the blanket that she as wrapped in, were found on the duct tape that was found on the mouth.”

To Patsy: “I have no evidence from any scientist that suggests that those fibers are from any source other than your red jacket."


http://www.jameson245.com/48hours2.htm

[Louisadelmar]

Thanks for saying that you don't think that I am coldblooded. Geez...I am just looking at the evidence here. I believe that she injured her, with the head blow...and that JB was convulsing. Now I would have called 911, and risked going to jail....but, I think that Patsy didn't want to see JB suffer....AND she feared telling the truth of the rage filled head blow...and didn't want to go to prison. So, she thought that she would stage a cover up and hope for the best.

Two unrelated things:

1. Who among us knows where our fibers are in our house? My assumption is mine are all over my stuff as well as my kids stuff.


2. I think people (and particularly people who have had a fairly comfortable childhood and life) nearly always assume bad things won't happen. Or if they do happen someone will be able to fix it. They or their sick or injured child will get better. Patsy survived cancer when the odds were against her. I just can't see Patsy taking it upon herself to decide JonBenet was going to die from an invisible head bash and then hurrying the process along.

Even if JonBenet had been pouring out blood or laying there with her head twisted off to the side from a broken neck, Patsy would still have believed that somehow the doctors (and prayer) could save her and make it all right. Therefore she wouldn't kill her.

[Ames]

Two unrelated things:

1. Who among us knows where our fibers are in our house? My assumption is mine are all over my stuff as well as my kids stuff.


2. I think people (and particularly people who have had a fairly comfortable childhood and life) nearly always assume bad things won't happen. Or if they do happen someone will be able to fix it. They or their sick or injured child will get better. Patsy survived cancer when the odds were against her. I just can't see Patsy taking it upon herself to decide JonBenet was going to die from an invisible head bash and then hurrying the process along.

Even if JonBenet had been pouring out blood or laying there with her head twisted off to the side from a broken neck, Patsy would still have believed that somehow the doctors (and prayer) could save her and make it all right. Therefore she wouldn't kill her.

If fiber transfer is an issue...then how does fiber evidence hold up in court? I am telling ya...I don't want to believe that Patsy killed her own daughter...but, it happens every single day. I really think that she panicked....or else she probably would have thought that the doctors and prayer could have saved her...just like you said. I really don't think that she was in her right mind. Something else to keep in mind....in one of Patsy's interviews..she said (and I have posted this on another thread...but will find it again for you, if needed)....at one point that she didn't drink alchohol, because she was on chemo. at the time. In the SAME interview when asked about what she did at the White's party...she stated that they had some COCKTAILS. Does anyone out there know the effects of a mix of chemo and alchohol. I will have to look that one up.....that COULD possibly be the reason that she did something that was totally out of character for her. IMO

[Louisadelmar]

[...] Something else to keep in mind....in one of Patsy's interviews..she said (and I have posted this on another thread...but will find it again for you, if needed)....at one point that she didn't drink alchohol, because she was on chemo. at the time. In the SAME interview when asked about what she did at the White's party...she stated that they had some COCKTAILS. Does anyone out there know the effects of a mix of chemo and alchohol. I will have to look that one up.....that COULD possibly be the reason that she did something that was totally out of character for her. IMO

First, the perceived conflict on the drinking. In the first section he is asking about current alcohol use. Had she taken any alcohol prior to the interview? She says she doesn't drink since starting the Paxel (Paxil?) after JonBenet's death. In the second section she is talking about being light drinkers and not drinking much because of what the chemo did to her liver. She was no longer having chemo so a mix of chemo and alcohol doesn't really apply.
1997:
TT: Okay. Um, I all this, I know with the sinus infection your probably not even thinking about it, um, have you taken any alcohol? How much alcohol . . .
PR: No. I don’t drink alcohol.
TT: Okay. Uh, do you drink alcohol at all?
PR: No. Not since I’ve been on the Paxel at all.
TT: Okay. When did you start the Paxel?
PR: Uh, I don’t know. February maybe.
TT: Okay. Beg…towards the beginning or the end of February?
PR: I can’t remember exactly.
TT: Okay. And the Adavan, did you start that about the same time?
PR: Simultaneously.
TT: Okay.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ST: Patsy, in some ways I, I know more about your family than I know about my own, but uh, to the best of my knowledge and what everybody tells me neither you nor John are drinkers, your social drinkers as best. Did you have anything to drink on the night of the 25th at the Whites? A glass of wine.
PR: We may have had a glass of wine. I know John is very cautious about, I mean, knowing that he is going to fly the next, you know, does not, uh, you know, drink a lot.
ST: So certainly neither of you . . .
PR: I mean we may have had, and I’m very, I don’t drink a lot because my chemo did a number on my liver so I, I don’t, we just don’t drink a lot.



Fiber evidence from secondary transfer stands or falls on its own merits in court. Secondary transfer happens. Even LE can inadvertently cause it. Finding a fiber in a house where someone lives isn't very strong evidence. Also the fiber on the duct tape could have been picked up from the blanket.

[Louisadelmar]

Can't get it to save my edit.

If John's fibers are indeed, in JonBenet's crotch I would find that much more damning. Yet we are still talking about Patsy's fibers.

[shill]

How DARE you say that about me and my children. You have offended me to the point of no return. (And to think that I PM'd you not too long ago about how nice you have been being lately). I am NOT the one that had a dead daughter in my basement, and the killing happened under my, my husband and son's noses. NOR were the fibers of my jacket, found on the duct tape, entwined in the ligature, the paint tray, AND the blanket. NOR was a fake ransom note found in my house....I could go ON AND ON AND ON. IF all the above could be said of ME....THEN...and ONLY THEN would you have the right to call me cold blooded (and you could add the word killer).....because THATS what I would be. I cannot BELIEVE that you said that if I had accidently killed my child, I would cover it up instead of getting help. You are as wrong as hell about that....because, I would WANT to get help.

Now you know how Patsy felt.... all the time.

Why would Patsy behave any differently then you Ames?
If Patsy accidentally killed her daughter as you say, why would she react any differently then you?

I can judge you just as easily as you judge Patsy from what I've read about you.

I could be wrong.

I'll admit it when you do.
Obviously....with all of that evidence....fibers...etc. Patsy chose not to. (If there were not so many things pointing toward Patsy's direction, I would say...sure, she would have called for help. But to me, the evidence points directly at Patsy lashing out in a rage, and trying to cover it up. BUT, that has nothing to do with me.
Are you saying it was obvious to her that her daughter might be dying and she would rather let her die then get blamed for it?
How are you as a parent more concerned for your children then Patsy was for hers Aims?

[LindaA]

Game, point, and match to Shill.

But Ames, I read your response to my post about throwing JBR down the steps. You missed my point. I was not claiming that they would have gotten away with that, just that itsn't it more logical for a preson to try and cover up a head bashing that way than to garotte a person? How does that disguise the head wound? Why would anyone think it would?

And Elvislives did respond to mey post on the other thread. I don't believe she is as sure as you seem to be that it might not have worked. Shaken baby is one thing, a blow to the head is another. Seems to me that my scenario make much more sense than the RDI theory that PR garotted JBR to cover up the accidental head-bashing.

[bullmoose]

To Ames: I do not think that it possible that someone strangled Jonbenet by hand and then covered it up with the garotte; this is because the bruising on the neck would be much wider than the bruising from the garotte; also it is my belief that her hyoid bone would have been fractured if strangled by hand.

[Ames]

Now you know how Patsy felt.... all the time.

Why would Patsy behave any differently then you Ames?
If Patsy accidentally killed her daughter as you say, why would she react any differently then you?

I can judge you just as easily as you judge Patsy from what I've read about you.

I could be wrong.

I'll admit it when you do.

Are you saying it was obvious to her that her daughter might be dying and she would rather let her die then get blamed for it?
How are you as a parent more concerned for your children then Patsy was for hers Aims?


All you did was lashed out at me, for being RDI. You are not going to change my mind, so don't keep insulting me. I don't call you an idiot for being IDI, now do I? Because I don't think that you are. But, for you to call me cold blooded, when there is absolutely no reason to, is totally uncalled for. And to anyone that agrees with shill, that I am cold blooded, I am done posting with you. I thought that we were all friends on this board, simply posting our scenarios of what happened to JB. I guess that I was wrong. And, there is a BIG difference between Patsy and ME. My child is not dead, was not found in my basement, did not have my jacket fibers all over her, did not have a fake ransom note in my house, did not splay my fingers and glare at the investigators through splayed fingers. REGARDLESS....it doesn't matter HOW I feel about Patsy, and I COULD BE WRONG about my theory, we should quit bashing the other posters, because they have a different theory. You personally insulted me, and that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Patsy, except for the fact that you think that she is innocent...and you are trying to get back at me for being RDI. You judged me when you had no right to...NOW...if my child had died under the same circumstances, THEN you could judge me....because with all of that evidence pointing my way, I would probably be guilty. (IMO)

[Ames]

Game, point, and match to Shill.

But Ames, I read your response to my post about throwing JBR down the steps. You missed my point. I was not claiming that they would have gotten away with that, just that itsn't it more logical for a preson to try and cover up a head bashing that way than to garotte a person? How does that disguise the head wound? Why would anyone think it would?

And Elvislives did respond to mey post on the other thread. I don't believe she is as sure as you seem to be that it might not have worked. Shaken baby is one thing, a blow to the head is another. Seems to me that my scenario make much more sense than the RDI theory that PR garotted JBR to cover up the accidental head-bashing.

Okay, so you are agreeing with him that I am cold blooded, just because I am RDI....that's just not right. I am done posting on this board. It has been fun, and I seriously will miss you. :seeya:

[LindaA]

Ames, I know Shill's attack seems personal, but I really don't think it was. He was just trying to make a point about understanding how Patsy felt for the last 10 years of her life. We find it very easy to condemn Patsy when we are so sure she did it, but he was trying to say we would react in the same way if accused of doing harm to our children.

[Ames]

Ames, I know Shill's attack seems personal, but I really don't think it was. He was just trying to make a point about understanding how Patsy felt for the last 10 years of her life. We find it very easy to condemn Patsy when we are so sure she did it, but he was trying to say we would react in the same way if accused of doing harm to our children.


Thanks for trying to explain him to me, but I personally think he was attacking ME as a parent. Because he says that he thinks that he knows a little about me from my post. So, I guess that he thinks that gives him the right to call me cold blooded.

Shills comments to me...

"I can judge you just as easily as you judge Patsy from what I've read about you.
I could be wrong.

I'll admit it when you do."

[elvislives]

How DARE you say that about me and my children. You have offended me to the point of no return. (And to think that I PM'd you not too long ago about how nice you have been being lately). I am NOT the one that had a dead daughter in my basement, and the killing happened under my, my husband and son's noses. NOR were the fibers of my jacket, found on the duct tape, entwined in the ligature, the paint tray, AND the blanket. NOR was a fake ransom note found in my house....I could go ON AND ON AND ON. IF all the above could be said of ME....THEN...and ONLY THEN would you have the right to call me cold blooded (and you could add the word killer).....because THATS what I would be. I cannot BELIEVE that you said that if I had accidently killed my child, I would cover it up instead of getting help. You are as wrong as hell about that....because, I would WANT to get help. Obviously....with all of that evidence....fibers...etc. Patsy chose not to. (If there were not so many things pointing toward Patsy's direction, I would say...sure, she would have called for help. But to me, the evidence points directly at Patsy lashing out in a rage, and trying to cover it up. BUT, that has nothing to do with me.

Ames is certainly not coldblooded. I suspect that she is very passionate about this crime because her daughter (like mine) bears a striking resemblance to JB. Correct me if I'm wrong Ames, but I am assuming that the picture is of your daughter? In any case, I think she like the rest of us is just trying to figure out the truth. The only issue I have with Ames is her obsessive and compulsive use of the BOLD feature.;)

[LindaA]

Elvislives, she doesn't use bold that often -- just when she is really riled up. But be thankful that that's all she did this time. I've seen her -- let us say-- in a much worse mood over what someone said to her. She was showing remarkable restraint.

I think we all feel strongly about his case for whatever reason. I have a little 3 year old granddaughter who looks nothing like JBR, but when I think of someone doing what was done to JBR to my granddaughter, I wonder what I would do to them.

I still think Shill as rude as he/she sometimes may be, is trying to make a point to us all about how easily we judge the Ramseys -- every facet of their lives. It's almost as if they aren't real people with real feelings.

It may have been a low blow, but I think Shill was trying to make us all see that we would react in much the same way as the Ramseys did when accused of murdering our child. Obviously he made his point with you, Ames.

[elvislives]

I saw your post on staging an accidental death scene. And I posted back to you, on another thread, that Doctor's can usually figure out how a person got an injury. Like for example...someone bringing in a child with a broken arm, and telling the dr. that the child "fell". Or, shaken baby syndrome...the person that shook the baby is going to lie, so they don't go to jail....trying to come up with another scenario as to why the baby's brains are scrambled....but, the Doctors know that they are lying, because whatever scenario they give, it just doesn't jive or mesh with the injury. I am sure that the doctors would be able to look at JB's head injury, and for some reason, it wouldn't jive with her falling down the stairs. Maybe the skull is cracked in the wrong place, or whatever. The doctors can usually tell though. Ask elvislives...she is an ER doctor...she would know alot more about this than I would.

Yup, it would be hard to explain the hole in her skull from a fall down the stairs. It's possible she could have knocked her head against something on the way down that caused the hole, but that would definitely be a suspicious injury and would warrant an investigation by CPS.

[nuisanceposter]

Stop excusing Shill's unacceptable behavior. He's making personal attacks on other posters when that is completely unnecessary and uncalled for. I'm sure he's intelligent enough to come up with a way to make a point that doesn't leave someone feeling as bad as he's intentionally making Ames feel. He practically follows her around to badger her again and again because he knows he'll get a rise out of her - imo, that's cruel and immature. There's a better way to make a point that to leave someone feeling as thought they need to defend themselves against personal attacks - and what he's said to Ames *are* personal attacks.

[LindaA]

NP, excusing and explaining are two different things. I never said his/her behavior is acceptable. I do think he/she makes a very good point.

[nuisanceposter]

IMO, saying he's making good points while doing so in the form of a personal attack is excusing it and condoning it.

All I'm saying is, there's a better way to get your point across than sandwiching it in a post filled with thinly veiled (or outright) insults and mockery. I could be insulting him right now, but I can do better than that. I think he can too.

[rashomon]

Two unrelated things:

1. Who among us knows where our fibers are in our house? My assumption is mine are all over my stuff as well as my kids stuff.


2. I think people (and particularly people who have had a fairly comfortable childhood and life) nearly always assume bad things won't happen. Or if they do happen someone will be able to fix it. They or their sick or injured child will get better. Patsy survived cancer when the odds were against her. I just can't see Patsy taking it upon herself to decide JonBenet was going to die from an invisible head bash and then hurrying the process along.

Even if JonBenet had been pouring out blood or laying there with her head twisted off to the side from a broken neck, Patsy would still have believed that somehow the doctors (and prayer) could save her and make it all right. Therefore she wouldn't kill her.
For whatever reason(s), Patsy Ramsey did NOT consider calling the hospital an option, and nor did John.
And I can think of several reasons why they didn't call:

1) the ER staff may not have bought their story. ER staff are trained to take a very close look at parents who bring their severley injured child to the hospital. In addition, this would have been in the middle of the night - another red flag.
1) Can you imagine a type like Patsy Ramsey wanting to be saddled with a severely brain-injured child? Pushing around her former perfect little doll in a wheelchair in a 'vegetable' state? With people whispering behind her back: "Look, that's Patsy Ramsey over there. She says her daughter fell down the stairs, but who knows if that's true ...!"
3) Another possibility: since the Ramseys were no medical experts, there was no way for them to know if JB, maybe after weeks in a coma, would not have woken up one day and have told the truth: "Mommy hit me!"

[rashomon]

Can't get it to save my edit.

If John's fibers are indeed, in JonBenet's crotch I would find that much more damning. Yet we are still talking about Patsy's fibers.
Fibers from the shirt John Ramsey was wearing on that night were found in the crotch area of JB's oversized underpants.
And fibers from the jacket Patsy Ramsey was wearing on that night were found in incriminating locations too.

The fiber evidence implicates both Ramseys. Imo one can't downplay the fiber evidence aganst one Ramsey while stressing the fiber evidence against the other.

[LindaA]

Yup, it would be hard to explain the hole in her skull from a fall down the stairs. It's possible she could have knocked her head against something on the way down that caused the hole, but that would definitely be a suspicious injury and would warrant an investigation by CPS.

I agree. That's why I said leavae the flashlight or some other object near her at the bottom of the stairs. I think that's much more plausible a cover-eup than twhat actually happened.

[LindaA]

IMO, saying he's making good points while doing so in the form of a personal attack is excusing it and condoning it.

All I'm saying is, there's a better way to get your point across than sandwiching it in a post filled with thinly veiled (or outright) insults and mockery. I could be insulting him right now, but I can do better than that. I think he can too.


Whatever. :o

[LindaA]

For whatever reason(s), Patsy Ramsey did NOT consider calling the hospital an option, and nor did John.
And I can think of several reasons why they didn't call:

1) the ER staff may not have bought their story. ER staff are trained to take a very close look at parents who bring their severley injured child to the hospital. In addition, this would have been in the middle of the night - another red flag.
1) Can you imagine a type like Patsy Ramsey wanting to be saddled with a severely brain-injured child? Pushing around her former perfect little doll in a wheelchair in a 'vegetable' state? With people whispering behind her back: "Look, that's Patsy Ramsey over there. She says her daughter fell down the stairs, but who knows if that's true ...!"
3) Another possibility: since the Ramseys were no medical experts, there was no way for them to know if JB, maybe after weeks in a coma, would not have woken up one day and have told the truth: "Mommy hit me!"

And how is what you think they did better than any of those alternatives?

[shill]

All you did was lashed out at me, for being RDI. You are not going to change my mind, so don't keep insulting me. I don't call you an idiot for being IDI, now do I? Because I don't think that you are. But, for you to call me cold blooded, when there is absolutely no reason to, is totally uncalled for. And to anyone that agrees with shill, that I am cold blooded, I am done posting with you. I thought that we were all friends on this board, simply posting our scenarios of what happened to JB. I guess that I was wrong. And, there is a BIG difference between Patsy and ME. My child is not dead, was not found in my basement, did not have my jacket fibers all over her, did not have a fake ransom note in my house, did not splay my fingers and glare at the investigators through splayed fingers. REGARDLESS....it doesn't matter HOW I feel about Patsy, and I COULD BE WRONG about my theory, we should quit bashing the other posters, because they have a different theory. You personally insulted me, and that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Patsy, except for the fact that you think that she is innocent...and you are trying to get back at me for being RDI. You judged me when you had no right to...NOW...if my child had died under the same circumstances, THEN you could judge me....because with all of that evidence pointing my way, I would probably be guilty. (IMO)You're so wrong, I'm not trying to get back at you for anything and it's not because you're RDI.
You're no different then Patsy. Why should I think you are, just because you say you are.
And might I remind you that I don't think Patsy is a cold bloded killer, but I do think you and she are alike.
Patsy had a choice, and I don't think it was the same as yours.

[shill]

For whatever reason(s), Patsy Ramsey did NOT consider calling the hospital an option, and nor did John.
And I can think of several reasons why they didn't call:

1) the ER staff may not have bought their story. ER staff are trained to take a very close look at parents who bring their severley injured child to the hospital. In addition, this would have been in the middle of the night - another red flag.
1) Can you imagine a type like Patsy Ramsey wanting to be saddled with a severely brain-injured child? Pushing around her former perfect little doll in a wheelchair in a 'vegetable' state? With people whispering behind her back: "Look, that's Patsy Ramsey over there. She says her daughter fell down the stairs, but who knows if that's true ...!"
3) Another possibility: since the Ramseys were no medical experts, there was no way for them to know if JB, maybe after weeks in a coma, would not have woken up one day and have told the truth: "Mommy hit me!"

I can imagine Patsy would cherish JB now matter how she was as long as she was alive. And I think she would face whatever punishment she had to if it gave her a second chance with her daughter.
How can you imagine otherwise?
Are these the choices you would make over possibly saving your daughters life?
I guess I'm not cold-blooded enough to become a RDI.

[rashomon]

And how is what you think they did better than any of those alternatives?
I'm not sure at all that the Ramseys thought they would get away with the crime. But they took a 'wild shot' (I'm not sure if you call it like that in English) at it with that silly note and their staging, and - probably to their own surprise - it worked.
Investigative ineptness coupled with cowardice on the part of the DA staff played into the hands of the Ramseys - down to the present day.

[shill]

Stop excusing Shill's unacceptable behavior. He's making personal attacks on other posters when that is completely unnecessary and uncalled for. I'm sure he's intelligent enough to come up with a way to make a point that doesn't leave someone feeling as bad as he's intentionally making Ames feel. He practically follows her around to badger her again and again because he knows he'll get a rise out of her - imo, that's cruel and immature. There's a better way to make a point that to leave someone feeling as thought they need to defend themselves against personal attacks - and what he's said to Ames *are* personal attacks.
It's a public post. If Patsy and everyone in the investigation is fair game, then everyone else investigating and passing judgment is fair game.
If you’re going to say bad things about people, then you should expect the same.

Ames post everywhere all the time. No need to follow her around.

[rashomon]

I can imagine Patsy would cherish JB now matter how she was as long as she was alive. And I think she would face whatever punishment she had to if it gave her a second chance with her daughter.
How can you imagine otherwise?
Are these the choices you would make over possibly saving your daughters life?
I guess I'm not cold-blooded enough to become a RDI.
You are not 'cold-blooded' enough to take a good hard look
at the Ramseys which might burst your bubble, that's all.
What 'second chance', Shill? Do you think Patsy would have been able to attend to her severely brain-injured child day by day, knowing that she was responsible for it?
Answer yourself this question honestly, Shill: Could YOU live with that?
I can imagine that if there hadn't been Burke left to care for, Patsy would have committed suicide after realizing what she had done.

[LindaA]

You are not 'cold-blooded' enough to take a good hard look
at the Ramseys which might burst your bubble, that's all.
What 'second chance', Shill? Do you think Patsy would have been able to attend to her severely brain-injured child day by day, knowing that she was responsible for it?
Answer yourself this question honestly, Shill: Could YOU live with that?
I can imagine that if there hadn't been Burke left to care for, Patsy would have committed suicide after realizing what she had done.

Rash, you're going waaaay out on a limb here. This kind of speculation is not helpful or productive. How do you think you know Patsy well enough to know what she would do. Or Shill for that matter. No one knows what anyone would do -- ourselves included faced with that situation. And besides, if PR had done this to JBR, I don't know how she would have known what condition she was in.

[thewhitewitch1]

I agree. That's why I said leavae the flashlight or some other object near her at the bottom of the stairs. I think that's much more plausible a cover-eup than twhat actually happened.


What good would it do to leave a flashlight or whatever at the bottom of the stairs? I guess I don't understand your point.

I believe the Ramseys wanted their staging to point towards several different suspects; which they then tried to reinforce with "subtle" hints (LHP, the Whites, Jeff Merrick). Too bad none of these people were a "small foreign faction". I believe the "terrorist" angle was what they were going for originally; hence the garrote. The garrote certainly goes along with the RN. I believe this is why they chose that method. I also believe she was quite near death when the strangling occured, which had to make it only slightly more bearable to do. If you convince yourself that you are doing it for her own good...well...

When I think of the comments that were made by Patsy only days after JBs death, it isn't hard to envision her trying to reason that it was for her own good. I'm sure Patsy, who had big plans and high hopes for her daughter, felt that death would be preferable to a life of being severely brain damaged. John mentioning how we all have "burdons" in this life and how JB had no burdons and Patsy lamenting on how she would never have to "face the loss of a child" among other things, seems to be a bit of self-justification.
You'd think a grieving parent would be more upset over their child never having a chance to go to a prom, or get married and have children etc and would be angry at the person who robbed her of these things. But no, the Ramseys felt that she was "better off".
You can bash me all you want for saying how a "grieving parent should act" but I find their comments to be very abnormal.

As for Shill bashing Ames...I see that you were trying to make a point but there is no comparison between Ames and Patsy Ramsey.
This is a crime forum and the Ramseys have cause to be suspicious of the murder of their child. We aren't here to have empathy for Patsy or John. We are here to discuss a crime and some of us firmly believe that the parents (one or both) are guilty. How the Ramseys reacted to being accused is irrelevant to anything and accusing Ames of being "cold blooded" and all of the other cracks you've made towards her is uncalled for. You served no purpose except to hurt someones feelings.
According to your logic, no RDI should have a right to post their theory at all because we are "hurting the Ramseys feelings" and "how would we like it?"
Some of you get a little too wrapped up in this, I think. None of us (as far as I know) knows the Ramseys personally; nor will we ever know them. That's the problem with IDIs. You are allowing personal feelings into your theories and not looking at things objectively. (Ok, not ALL IDIs) (covering my ass!).
If I allowed personal feelings to rule my opinion, I would say right here and now that the Ramseys are innocent because no loving parent could or would murder their own child. Case closed.
Too bad it isn't that black and white. IMO

[shill]

If I allowed personal feelings to rule my opinion, I would say right here and now that the Ramseys are innocent because no loving parent could or would murder their own child. Case closed.
Too bad it isn't that black and white. IMO

This discussion wasn't about loving parents murdering their child.
This discussion was about an accidental head blow and then a mercy killing that they tried to cover up. Lashing out and killing someone happens. Mercy killings happen after all attempts to save someone are exhausted. For all they know JB was alive. There was no blood gushing from her head. Little kids have fallen out of two story windows on their heads and live.
The accident part is plausible, the rest points to a cold-blooded killing.
No loving parents would think of finishing their daughter off after an accident when there could be a chance of saving her life.
Even cops that shoot to kill try and save the perps life.

There is nothing that has been presented that shows the Ramseys are any different then the rest of us. No skeletons have come out of the closets to say they were bad people and capable of this behavior.
You, Ames, and others make judgments based on your personal feelings all the time, more so then IDIs.

[Louisadelmar]

[...] That's the problem with IDIs. You are allowing personal feelings into your theories and not looking at things objectively. [...]
You mean we should strive to be objective and set aside personal feelings like these RDI's?

lol, I was going to use 'man boobs' as the caption under John's picture

Get a Job, You Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum.......

John is looking a bit porky, isn't he? I saw a picture of him and Baba Wawa somewhere, and I thought they looked very good together. Perhaps Baba could be the next Mrs. Ramsey...

There is one thing I've particularly noticed about John Ramsey. He likes to reinvent history and does it without batting an eye, although he does lick his lips a lot.

I'd say about a C-cup. Maybe we should all pitch in and send him a Wonder bra and a long-line body slimmer.

And you can even see the amazing lizard tongue from a distance!

Is John Ramsey entering pageants now? If so, he doesn't stand a chance--his pendulous breasts aren't pert enough--They look like deflated water balloons!

you pompous jerk.

According to what all the other posters are saying, Tea, sounds to me like he is preparing himself for a new trophy. Did you think he definitely had some plastic surgery to his face and eyes, in this 48 Hours session? His eyes matched his lizard tongue in Why_Nut's photo. Froggy type lids.

[LindaA]

[QUOTE=thewhitewitch1;8790796]What good would it do to leave a flashlight or whatever at the bottom of the stairs? I guess I don't understand your point." <sninp>

It's really not hard -- leave the flashlight or some other object that was presumably used to bash JBR in the head near her body at the bottom of a stairway and it will look as though she fell onto it at some point on her way down --- even landed on it. IMO it makes ore sense than the garotting/violating/etc the RDIs think the Ramseys did to cover up an accidental head bashing. IMO anyone trying to cover up the head bashing would have been more likely to have done it that way than the elaborate RDI theory put forth here.

[LindaA]

This discussion wasn't about loving parents murdering their child.
This discussion was about an accidental head blow and then a mercy killing that they tried to cover up. Lashing out and killing someone happens. Mercy killings happen after all attempts to save someone are exhausted. For all they know JB was alive. There was no blood gushing from her head. Little kids have fallen out of two story windows on their heads and live.
The accident part is plausible, the rest points to a cold-blooded killing.
No loving parents would think of finishing their daughter off after an accident when there could be a chance of saving her life.
Even cops that shoot to kill try and save the perps life.

There is nothing that has been presented that shows the Ramseys are any different then the rest of us. No skeletons have come out of the closets to say they were bad people and capable of this behavior.
You, Ames, and others make judgments based on your personal feelings all the time, more so then IDIs.


:beer: :beer: :beer: !!!

[thewhitewitch1]

You mean we should strive to be objective and set aside personal feelings like these RDI's?

lol, I was going to use 'man boobs' as the caption under John's picture

Get a Job, You Bum, Bum, Bum, Bum.......

John is looking a bit porky, isn't he? I saw a picture of him and Baba Wawa somewhere, and I thought they looked very good together. Perhaps Baba could be the next Mrs. Ramsey...

There is one thing I've particularly noticed about John Ramsey. He likes to reinvent history and does it without batting an eye, although he does lick his lips a lot.

I'd say about a C-cup. Maybe we should all pitch in and send him a Wonder bra and a long-line body slimmer.

And you can even see the amazing lizard tongue from a distance!

Is John Ramsey entering pageants now? If so, he doesn't stand a chance--his pendulous breasts aren't pert enough--They look like deflated water balloons!

you pompous jerk.

According to what all the other posters are saying, Tea, sounds to me like he is preparing himself for a new trophy. Did you think he definitely had some plastic surgery to his face and eyes, in this 48 Hours session? His eyes matched his lizard tongue in Why_Nut's photo. Froggy type lids.



Louisa, I have read those comments at FFJ and I find them most immature and am embarrassed for the people making them. I have never said anything like that about the Ramseys and would never stoop so low.
Not all RDIs are that insensitive and immature. Most RDIs here do not say things like that and I think you'd have to agree.

[thewhitewitch1]

[QUOTE=thewhitewitch1;8790796]What good would it do to leave a flashlight or whatever at the bottom of the stairs? I guess I don't understand your point." <sninp>

It's really not hard -- leave the flashlight or some other object that was presumably used to bash JBR in the head near her body at the bottom of a stairway and it will look as though she fell onto it at some point on her way down --- even landed on it. IMO it makes ore sense than the garotting/violating/etc the RDIs think the Ramseys did to cover up an accidental head bashing. IMO anyone trying to cover up the head bashing would have been more likely to have done it that way than the elaborate RDI theory put forth here.

Experts can pretty much put together the facts of how someone died if the death was suspicious and they need to investigate it. Nobody would believe that she "fell on a flashlight" at the bottom of the stairs. They can tell what angle she'd have had to have fallen from, how hard, how fast...etc etc.
Most RDIs are of the opinion that there had been previous sexual molestation of some sort, so the big elaborate staging also had to involve covering that up as well.
I think tossing your child down a flight of stairs is almost as horrifying as strangling her and just as cold-blooded. It also doesn't gaurantee that it is going to kill her immediately, if at all.

[Louisadelmar]

Louisa, I have read those comments at FFJ and I find them most immature and am embarrassed for the people making them. I have never said anything like that about the Ramseys and would never stoop so low.
Not all RDIs are that insensitive and immature. Most RDIs here do not say things like that and I think you'd have to agree.

I do agree and I'm glad to hear you find their behavior embarrassing. They don't. But there are those who are members here who are members there as well. And I don't see them, over there, speaking up against it. That whole forum weakens whatever points the RDI might have because thread after thread after thread is nothing but personal attacks. I think if the evidence existed to prove the Ramseys are guilty they would stay focused on it.

[LindaA]

[QUOTE=LindaA;8790840]

Experts can pretty much put together the facts of how someone died if the death was suspicious and they need to investigate it. Nobody would believe that she "fell on a flashlight" at the bottom of the stairs. They can tell what angle she'd have had to have fallen from, how hard, how fast...etc etc.
Most RDIs are of the opinion that there had been previous sexual molestation of some sort, so the big elaborate staging also had to involve covering that up as well.
I think tossing your child down a flight of stairs is almost as horrifying as strangling her and just as cold-blooded. It also doesn't gaurantee that it is going to kill her immediately, if at all.


Perhaps they can, but my point is not that they would have gotten away with it or even that it is more humane. It is simply that is is a more logical and simple way to try and cover up a head blow than they whole scenario that was played out in the Ramsey case. As for your last comment, if they thought she was already dead, it makes perfect sense. And one jab with a paintbrush handle -- broken or not -- isn't going to come anywhere near covering up habitual molestation. Why would anyone think it would? Why would anyone think a garotte would hide a head wound more than a fall down the steps? Why would a narrow garotte hide the marks from a hand strangulation? That makes no sense at all to me.

[Coloradokares]

For whatever reason(s), Patsy Ramsey did NOT consider calling the hospital an option, and nor did John.
And I can think of several reasons why they didn't call:

1) the ER staff may not have bought their story. ER staff are trained to take a very close look at parents who bring their severley injured child to the hospital. In addition, this would have been in the middle of the night - another red flag.
1) Can you imagine a type like Patsy Ramsey wanting to be saddled with a severely brain-injured child? Pushing around her former perfect little doll in a wheelchair in a 'vegetable' state? With people whispering behind her back: "Look, that's Patsy Ramsey over there. She says her daughter fell down the stairs, but who knows if that's true ...!"
3) Another possibility: since the Ramseys were no medical experts, there was no way for them to know if JB, maybe after weeks in a coma, would not have woken up one day and have told the truth: "Mommy hit me!"

I think whoever inflicted that blow knew from the immediate physiological responses of JonBenet that she would not be waking up or even live in a vegetative state. I feel they knew with certainty a fatal blow had been delivered . The sound of the skull cracking like that had to be beyond words that I can put together in any forum post. I don't know if the strangulation occured pre head injury or post head injury. Personally I am thinking immediately or shortly following post head injury. But I am not a medical expert. What I know as a mother or a human being that had to be an indescribable sound for the skull to fracture like that. I don't believe JonBenet accidentally fell and acquired this headinjuryfrom a fall. IE from the spiral staircase. However if she had in theory she could have picked up the garland in that fall. But If that had occured there wouldn't their have been other body evidence JMHO. Broken arm leg black eye. Something? No I think this was a murder....accidental or not.

[LindaA]

I think whoever inflicted that blow knew from the immediate physiological responses of JonBenet that she would not be waking up or even live in a vegetative state. I feel they knew with certainty a fatal blow had been delivered . The sound of the skull cracking like that had to be beyond words that I can put together in any forum post. I don't know if the strangulation occured pre head injury or post head injury. Personally I am thinking immediately or shortly following post head injury. But I am not a medical expert. What I know as a mother or a human being that had to be an indescribable sound for the skull to fracture like that. I don't believe JonBenet accidentally fell and acquired this headinjuryfrom a fall. IE from the spiral staircase. However if she had in theory she could have picked up the garland in that fall. But If that had occured there wouldn't their have been other body evidence JMHO. Broken arm leg black eye. Something? No I think this was a murder....accidental or not.


I don't think anyone thinks the head wound was actually caused from an accidental fall. However, my point is that to cover up a head injury like that throwing her down the stairs would have caused injuries such as those you mention and would have provided a more believable -- albeit not foolproof-- cover-up than what was done to JBR.

[elvislives]

[QUOTE=thewhitewitch1;8790929]


Perhaps they can, but my point is not that they would have gotten away with it or even that it is more humane. It is simply that is is a more logical and simple way to try and cover up a head blow than they whole scenario that was played out in the Ramsey case. As for your last comment, if they thought she was already dead, it makes perfect sense. And one jab with a paintbrush handle -- broken or not -- isn't going to come anywhere near covering up habitual molestation. Why would anyone think it would? Why would anyone think a garotte would hide a head wound more than a fall down the steps? Why would a narrow garotte hide the marks from a hand strangulation? That makes no sense at all to me.

I hear what youre saying LindaA. I agree that IF the staging was a cover up for an "accidental" head bash, it's a pretty deranged plan.

[Coloradokares]

Ames I do hope you come back and continue to keep posting. You have been most insightful and enjoyable. I do not wish to jump into any fracas. However there is acceptable disagreement on the facts of the case. and that which gets way to personally directed has nothing to do with the murder or right or wrong. This is a very very sad day on this forum. I thought their were forum rules regarding the requirement for all posts regardless of opinion not to take a personal turn against any forum member or poster. This absolutely reeks.

[andU]

[QUOTE=LindaA;8790976]

I hear what youre saying LindaA. I agree that IF the staging was a cover up for an "accidental" head bash, it's a pretty deranged plan.


It is too far out there for me to believe. It just doesn't set right with me. It was either a murder, planned or a murder, accidental (I believe the latter). I don't think they intended to murder her, but one of them had pedofile tendacies and blew it for the orginal plan, they had to go with Plan B...

[andU]

Hmmm I don't know what happened to my previous post, which was in response to Elvislives, not Linda A... Sorry everyone...

[Coloradokares]

I don't think anyone thinks the head wound was actually caused from an accidental fall. However, my point is that to cover up a head injury like that throwing her down the stairs would have caused injuries such as those you mention and would have provided a more believable -- albeit not foolproof-- cover-up than what was done to JBR.

Oh ok....now I follow. My ony thought on that is something in the staging had to attempt at least to hope to cover sexual misconduct issues regarding JonBenet. I feel that way regardless of who you seriously consider as a suspect. Friend, associate, neighbor or family member. And a fall down the stairs would not explain that away. But I totally respect your thoughts on it. I understand you don't necessarily agree with the need for staging regarding that issue. I feel the evidence regarding that issue is one that will be more throughly explained should the matter ever go further legally.

[sweetcharlotte]

I do agree and I'm glad to hear you find their behavior embarrassing. They don't. But there are those who are members here who are members there as well. And I don't see them, over there, speaking up against it. That whole forum weakens whatever points the RDI might have because thread after thread after thread is nothing but personal attacks. I think if the evidence existed to prove the Ramseys are guilty they would stay focused on it.

:beer:


I agree.........."if the evidence existed to prove the Ramseys are guilty they would stay focused on it."

[thewhitewitch1]

[QUOTE=thewhitewitch1;8790929]


Perhaps they can, but my point is not that they would have gotten away with it or even that it is more humane. It is simply that is is a more logical and simple way to try and cover up a head blow than they whole scenario that was played out in the Ramsey case. As for your last comment, if they thought she was already dead, it makes perfect sense. And one jab with a paintbrush handle -- broken or not -- isn't going to come anywhere near covering up habitual molestation. Why would anyone think it would? Why would anyone think a garotte would hide a head wound more than a fall down the steps? Why would a narrow garotte hide the marks from a hand strangulation? That makes no sense at all to me.


How would the Ramseys know what the paintbrush would or would not cover up? They weren't medical experts.
No one said the garrote was going to cover up a head wound. It had to look like more than a head wound. I never claimed she was manually strangled first either. The RN was intended to sound like terrorists. The garrote goes along with that. They were not trying to cover up the head wound; they were trying to portray a scenerio where kidnappers/terrorists killed their daughter. The head wound alone would not support that scenerio.

[LindaA]

TWW1, why would anyone think that one poke with a paintbrush would cover up the results of digital penetration? It doesn't take a medical expert to think that. They weren't medical experts yet everyone seems to think they would know the degree of severity of the skull fracture. You may not have said she was manually strangled, but other RDIs have put forth that theory. NO one owuld think a garotte would cover a head wound. That is exactly my point. So why stage a garotting to cover a head wound? That seems to be a popular RDI theory -- that the garotting was all staged to cover the real cause of death. I don't think that theory makes any sense.

[sweetcharlotte]

Rash, you're going waaaay out on a limb here. This kind of speculation is not helpful or productive. How do you think you know Patsy well enough to know what she would do. Or Shill for that matter. No one knows what anyone would do -- ourselves included faced with that situation. And besides, if PR had done this to JBR, I don't know how she would have known what condition she was in.

And I certainly don't think Patsy would have been thinking into the future, i.e., wheelchairs and what people would be saying.

JMO

[andU]

TWW1, why would anyone think that one poke with a paintbrush would cover up the results of digital penetration? It doesn't take a medical expert to think that. They weren't medical experts yet everyone seems to think they would know the degree of severity of the skull fracture. You may not have said she was manually strangled, but other RDIs have put forth that theory. NO one owuld think a garotte would cover a head wound. That is exactly my point. So why stage a garotting to cover a head wound? That seems to be a popular RDI theory -- that the garotting was all staged to cover the real cause of death. I don't think that theory makes any sense.

Linda, I agree. Where is the logic to that? Nah..... (IMO)

[rashomon]

Rash, you're going waaaay out on a limb here. This kind of speculation is not helpful or productive. How do you think you know Patsy well enough to know what she would do. Or Shill for that matter. No one knows what anyone would do -- ourselves included faced with that situation. And besides, if PR had done this to JBR, I don't know how she would have known what condition she was in.

Linda, I can't understand why you are so squeamish. This is a true crime forum, and speculating about a perp's possible motive for doing (or not doing) certain things is part of the discussion. The Ramseys have never been cleared as suspects, and it is a fact that neither John nor Patsy took JB to the hospital after the head blow was delivered.
I believe that they were involved in JB's death, and therefore the question for me to ask is WHY did they not take their severely injured (or already dead) child to the hospital?
Obviously because whoever of the Ramseys did this to JB did not want take responsibility for her/his deed, and the other went along with it.

There's been a lot of talk by IDIs about how a loving mother like Patsy could never do certain things her child.
Well, it is a fact that this loving mother left her dead child lying there under the Christmas tree like a broken doll beyond repair, and more or less fled from the crime scene.

[sweetcharlotte]

"Fled the scene?" I don't think so. I think they were escorted out of their home by police officiers.

JMO

[bullmoose]

To rashoman: To me the question is who did it? IMO the reason they didn't take their child to the hospital was that she was already dead when John found her at 1PM in the company of Fleet White. Its no more complicated than that; and as for saying Patsy fled the crime scene, are you saying Jonbenet was murdered under the Christmas tree? That's the only way it was the crime scene. And I believe she was dragged away in hysterics by her friends; oh yeah thats cold and calculating. Be an RDI, but grow a heart.:no:

[Louisadelmar]

[...]
There's been a lot of talk by IDIs about how a loving mother like Patsy could never do certain things her child.
Well, it is a fact that this loving mother left her dead child lying there under the Christmas tree like a broken doll beyond repair, and more or less fled from the crime scene.

It is a fact that Dorthy Moxley sat in a chair for hours while her daughter lay dead under a tree in her yard. She never went out to see her. Do you also find guilt in that?

[rashomon]

It is a fact that Dorthy Moxley sat in a chair for hours while her daughter lay dead under a tree in her yard. She never went out to see her. Do you also find guilt in that?
These two cases can in no way be compared. For Patsy Ramsey actively went toward JB's body, giving her 'Lazarus' performance

Bullmoose: in such cases, as far as I'm informed, the whole house is declared as a crime scene.

[shill]

[QUOTE=LindaA;8790840]

Experts can pretty much put together the facts of how someone died if the death was suspicious and they need to investigate it. Nobody would believe that she "fell on a flashlight" at the bottom of the stairs. They can tell what angle she'd have had to have fallen from, how hard, how fast...etc etc.
Most RDIs are of the opinion that there had been previous sexual molestation of some sort, so the big elaborate staging also had to involve covering that up as well.
I think tossing your child down a flight of stairs is almost as horrifying as strangling her and just as cold-blooded. It also doesn't gaurantee that it is going to kill her immediately, if at all.So what caused the head wound and how exactly did she die? If the experts can tell these things as you state, then how come they don't have the answers?

If she was found at the bottom of the spiral staircase, it would appear to be an accident and not suspicious. There probably would be no investigation into it at all. And there would be no reason to check for sexual molestation.

But the garrote, the penetration, the ligature, and the ransom note with a body in the house screams for a full out investigation.

Now why would the Ramseys want to bring all that on themselves and risk getting caught in the many lies they would have to tell?

[LindaA]

Exactly my point, Shill.

Strange-- in your post it looks as if I was the one doubting that, when actually you quoted one of my posts in wich I was quoting TWW1's response to my previous post. I couldn't agree with you more, Shill.

[elvislives]

I think whoever inflicted that blow knew from the immediate physiological responses of JonBenet that she would not be waking up or even live in a vegetative state. I feel they knew with certainty a fatal blow had been delivered .

I have a hard time with this theory. One thing that has been consistent in my experience is that parents are eternally optimistic and hopeful when it comes to the health & survival of their children. We get patients who come in practically decapitated..dead on arrival..all resussitive efforts of EMS have failed...and the parents are pleading with us to make their child better, in spite of their obvious terminal state. I dont know if its a defense mechanism, denial, or what but parents are universally unwilling to accept that their child is gone. And the WORST cases are those whose children don't even appear to be injured (head trauma or internal bleeding). JB would have looked just like she was sleeping, plus she was breathing (hence the petechiae on the lungs). It's hard to believe that parents in that situation would just write her off so quickly.

[thewhitewitch1]

I have a hard time with this theory. One thing that has been consistent in my experience is that parents are eternally optimistic and hopeful when it comes to the health & survival of their children. We get patients who come in practically decapitated..dead on arrival..all resussitive efforts of EMS have failed...and the parents are pleading with us to make their child better, in spite of their obvious terminal state. I dont know if its a defense mechanism, denial, or what but parents are universally unwilling to accept that their child is gone. And the WORST cases are those whose children don't even appear to be injured (head trauma or internal bleeding). JB would have looked just like she was sleeping, plus she was breathing (hence the petechiae on the lungs). It's hard to believe that parents in that situation would just write her off so quickly.

If you were the person who inflicted the blow to the head, I don't see why you all find it so hard to believe why that person would not want their child to "recover". I also don't know why you all find it so hard to believe that JB may have exhibited signs that she was injured very badly. Maybe her breathing was so shallow that they thought she was dead. I'm sure they heard the sound of her skull cracking. She was probably convulsing.
RDI theories are just that. We may be all wrong about how or why it happened. The fact is, the Ramseys do not fit the category of "innocent parents". The things they've said and done; the fact that all of this happened right under their noses practically....
I'm sorry but I still can't get my mind around any intruder hiding out in their house and doing all of these things, leaving virtually nothing of himself behind while 3 other people could have gotten up at any point during the night and caught them. That is just too far out there for me. As far out there as you believe the Ramseys having done it...that's how far an intruder is out there for me.

[bullmoose]

Rashoman: It's okay with me that you want to consider the whole house a crime scene; it was, from top to bottom. Okay? I would just like you to explain to me how it is that you get off on saying Patsy left Jonbenet like a broken toy under the Christmas Tree and more or less fled the crime scene. If the house is the crime scene, what are you saying Patsy should have done? How do you get off saying Patsy more or less fled the crime scene[the house]? Have I missed something here? I do not recall any account, even by the the Twister, that says that Patsy went flying out of the house[ you know, the crime scene]. My recollection is that the police locked the place up, as a crime scene, and they left, hours later, for their friend's house. Nowhere did I read about Patsy fleeing her daughters body, broken like a toy under the Tree. Like I said, grow a heart.:flamemad:

[elvislives]

". As far out there as you believe the Ramseys having done it...that's how far an intruder is out there for me.

Sometimes I wonder if people on this board actually read what someone writes before responding. I have NEVER said or even implied that I think that the Rs having done it is an 'out there' theory. In fact I've said just the opposite...that they are the likely suspects which is why I was a staunch RDI for so long. What I am struggling with is the MOTIVE as to why these 2 parents would want to intentionally kill their daughter. Again, the idea that they wacked her in the head out of anger, then staged the rest is INCONSISTENT with the autopsy report imo, so that theory doesn't wash with me. If you want to believe that theory, knock yourself out, you are entitled to your viewpoint. My purpose in discussing this case with intelligent openminded people is to understand the whys of the case and determine if there are other possible theories .:shrug:

[thewhitewitch1]

Sometimes I wonder if people on this board actually read what someone writes before responding. I have NEVER said or even implied that I think that the Rs having done it is an 'out there' theory. In fact I've said just the opposite...that they are the likely suspects which is why I was a staunch RDI for so long. What I am struggling with is the MOTIVE as to why these 2 parents would want to intentionally kill their daughter. Again, the idea that they wacked her in the head out of anger, then staged the rest is INCONSISTENT with the autopsy report imo, so that theory doesn't wash with me. If you want to believe that theory, knock yourself out, you are entitled to your viewpoint. My purpose in discussing this case with intelligent openminded people is to understand the whys of the case and determine if there are other possible theories .:shrug:


I should not have quoted you because I didn't mean you specifically.
It's ok if my theory doesn't "wash" with you. I don't really even have a set theory. It is also only your opinion that the head injury came last. I've done some reading in the past on closed head injuries and have read that they can bleed very little.
I'm sorry if you don't find me "intellegent" enough for you to discuss this with. When an IDI comes up with a theory that makes sense and fits the evidence, I'd gladly consider it. So far...not. No matter what "side you're on", it all seems confusing and bizarre. I'm sure everyone will agree with that.
And...just so you know...I do read before posting. :eek:

[shill]

Exactly my point, Shill.

Strange-- in your post it looks as if I was the one doubting that, when actually you quoted one of my posts in wich I was quoting TWW1's response to my previous post. I couldn't agree with you more, Shill.

Sorry,
My bad, I missed deleting your name out of that quote of a quote.

[nuisanceposter]

When an IDI comes up with a theory that makes sense and fits the evidence, I'd gladly consider it.

Same here. People coming up with fanciful ideas of who this killer was such as "he must have been a drug addicted alcoholic with a penchant for porn" just don't cut it. There's no proof of that whatsoever. The scene and RN give no indication of that, other than the confusingly "gentle" vaginal injury, which really doesn't fit in with the standard for a sexual sadist who preys on children. Same with the pedo ring. No proof at all. We need to stay focused on the facts as we know them.

No matter what "side you're on", it all seems confusing and bizarre. I'm sure everyone will agree with that. I certainly agree with that. This case is just damn bizarre and does not make sense at all. That's part of the reson RDI suspect parental involvement and staging - the type of perp we're looking for in this crime is someone the likes of which we've never seen before. It's very likely this murder was a crime of passion covered up, and that's why it doesn't make sense compared to the standards of crime.

And...just so you know...I do read before posting. She really does. She's been here for a while, and I can say from posting with her that she takes the time to hit on detail when she replies, and can back her facts up.

[rashomon]

Be an RDI, but grow a heart.:no:
Bullmoose,
I can assure you I'm not a cold-hearted person at all.
For if I were, I'd certainly have chosen the wrong profession. I work with children of JB's age, and when I look in the trusting eyes of my little kindergartners, I always get the feeling that I want to protect them from all the evils of the world. I have a heart for little JonBenet, who deserved better than being discarded under the Christmas tree like a broken doll who no longer served her purpose.
Don't we owe it to that poor little girl that justice be served? Is it not with JonBenet where our heart should be? If we don't speak for JonBenet, who can no longer speak for herself, who else will? Do you think Mary Lacy and her minions will? I don't get this impression.
Or John Ramsey, who seems to be more interested in his golf playing than in finding JB's killer?

To get back to the topic of the thread: "mercy killing". Even if it was like that, and JB's parents killed her out of mercy, still they did not want to take responsibility for what they originally did to JB. A mercy killing does not change the fact that they wanted to escape justice.

[bullmoose]

To Rashoman: I do not doubt your sincerety concerning Jonbenet, I'll try not to be overly sensitive to your phraseology; I know you are an RDI, that's fine by me, I'm a IDI, but I don't come here to listen to the IDI theories exclusively; I like to read everybodies ideas and theories. Truthfully, I don't think John Ramseys' golfing habits have any effect on the case, IMO the case was unlikely to ever be solved by the time 1997 started. There is a TV show called 48 that I watch, its real murder investigations and the name stands for the time in which a murder case needs to be solved, or else it becomes much less likely to ever solve it. I think the BPD zeroed in on the Ramseys and missed the opportunity to catch the actual killer/s; however, in truth, if I'm right, I also suspect strongly that if the BPD had not zeroed in on the Ramseys, they still probably wouldn't have caught anyone. I believe they were completely out of their depth in this case. I agree with you that Jonbenet deserves justice, no matter if you are RDI and I am IDI, this was a monstrous crime. But I do not, will not ever believe this was a mercy killing. Whoever garotted Jonbenet was an inhuman monster, IMO.

[Ames]

Ames is certainly not coldblooded. I suspect that she is very passionate about this crime because her daughter (like mine) bears a striking resemblance to JB. Correct me if I'm wrong Ames, but I am assuming that the picture is of your daughter? In any case, I think she like the rest of us is just trying to figure out the truth. The only issue I have with Ames is her obsessive and compulsive use of the BOLD feature.;)

Thanks elvislives. Yes, you are right...the reason that I am so passionate about this case, is because my daughter bears a striking resemblance to JB. Yes, you are correct..that Avatar picture WAS of my daughter, but I took it off. I didn't want some sicko like JMK getting any ideas, and I never should have put it there in the first place. She gets told that, just about everywhere she goes. (And personally I find it eerie for my child to resemble a dead child....the autopsy photos of JB creep me out, because they look like my daughter. The first time that I saw them, I cried myself to sleep). LOL...so, you don't like my obsessive and compulsive use of the BOLD FEATURE, huh??

[Ames]

[QUOTE=LindaA;8790578]Elvislives, she doesn't use bold that often -- just when she is really riled up. But be thankful that that's all she did this time. I've seen her -- let us say-- in a much worse mood over what someone said to her. She was showing remarkable restraint.

QUOTE]

Oh good grief, LindaA...here we go again. You are bringing up something that happened ONE time, and happened MONTHS ago. As I stated when you mentioned this on another thread...(WHY do you insist on bringing this up over and over and over again?) I pm'd YOU and apologized to YOU for cussing out another poster that had personally attacked me. I was afraid that you were mad at me...so I pm'd you to ask YOUR forgiveness..and you said, "There's nothing to forgive". And now you are bringing this up YET again. I said this before in the other post, and I will say it again. I think that it says more about me as a person, that I would WANT YOUR forgiveness, than the fact that I used a couple of cuss words, in a post to a person that attacked me, MONTHS ago. Let it go....

[Ames]

IMO, saying he's making good points while doing so in the form of a personal attack is excusing it and condoning it.



Thank you...my thoughts exactly. I wasn't even going to get back on this board anymore. But, I was lurking...and saw my name menioned over and over on different threads...and so I couldn't help but post. Personally, time away from this board has given me more time to spend with my daughters. So, I will probably finished lurking tonight....and thats going to be it for me folks. I am getting just a little bit tired of the insults on this board, and would rather spend my time with my family...who appreciates me.

[Ames]

Ames post everywhere all the time. No need to follow her around.

Not after tonight, I won't be.

[Ames]

Patsy had a choice, and I don't think it was the same as yours.

And what is THAT supposed to mean??? Nevermind...don't bother explaining..because I am finished with you and this board anyway. I have better things to do with my time...like spend it with my family.

[sweetcharlotte]

Not after tonight, I won't be.

Take care.......

[Coloradokares]

Thank you...my thoughts exactly. I wasn't even going to get back on this board anymore. But, I was lurking...and saw my name menioned over and over on different threads...and so I couldn't help but post. Personally, time away from this board has given me more time to spend with my daughters. So, I will probably finished lurking tonight....and thats going to be it for me folks. I am getting just a little bit tired of the insults on this board, and would rather spend my time with my family...who appreciates me.


If I could change your mind I'd like to. If not come on long enough to PM some of us who do care. I do know what your saying. I can't think that I am long for the same old hash and rehash and never getting past that. My family is precious to me. Time is precious, far to precious to waste on those who are here to score points regardless of right or wrong. I am not here for the debate. The debate was over long ago. Now what do we do about getting the evidence heard in a format where justice can be served?

[Ames]

Take care.......

Thanks SC....you take care, too. Merry Christmas to you and your family!

[Ames]

If I could change your mind I'd like to. If not come on long enough to PM some of us who do care. I do know what your saying. I can't think that I am long for the same old hash and rehash and never getting past that. My family is precious to me. Time is precious, far to precious to waste on those who are here to score points regardless of right or wrong. I am not here for the debate. The debate was over long ago. Now what do we do about getting the evidence heard in a format where justice can be served?


Hey, thanks for the post. I am done with this board, I have had alot of fun..and have made quite a few friends, and for that...I will be forever grateful. My 15 year old came in, while I was reading the boards...and the first thing she said was "MOM...I thought you weren't getting back on there anymore". And, the second thing that she said, as she was reading some of the posts was "Why do the posters on there insult each other in one post after another?". Its really funny, I got riled up one time, a few months back...over a personal attack...and said a couple of cuss words (weird thing is...I NEVER cuss in person..and I actually go to church!!). I asked forgiveness of one of the posters, who was NOT the person that I had cussed out (I told them that I was sorry too), but I had offended with my words. I PM'd her, and told her that I was sorry, and to please forgive me. She wrote back in her pm, that there was nothing to forgive. BUT YET...she continues thread after thread, to bring it up...something that happened months ago. Anyway...its not only that...but, what shill said to me about being cold blooded, and that if I accidently killed my child, that I would stage a coverup. He, for some reason...was trying to compare me to Patsy....APPLES and ORANGES...IMO. He was trying to rile me up, so that I would see how Patsy feels about being accused of something that she didn't do. Problem with that is, I believe that Patsy DID DO it. I may decide to come back in the future, but my family means more to me than this board...and even though I have always known that, I was somewhat addicted to this board, and sometimes ignoring my children, to post back and forth to people that I don't really even know. I thank shill for snapping me back to reality, and to what is most important. He doesn't realize it...but actually he did me a huge favor. I am going to miss posting with each and every one of you (yes, including you...shill...;) ) I want to wish everyone (RDI's, IDI's, PDI's JDI's) a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Take Care!!!!

[Coloradokares]

Hey, thanks for the post. I am done with this board, I have had alot of fun..and have made quite a few friends, and for that...I will be forever grateful. My 15 year old came in, while I was reading the boards...and the first thing she said was "MOM...I thought you weren't getting back on there anymore". And, the second thing that she said, as she was reading some of the posts was "Why do the posters on there insult each other in one post after another?". Its really funny, I got riled up one time, a few months back...over a personal attack...and said a couple of cuss words (weird thing is...I NEVER cuss in person..and I actually go to church!!). I asked forgiveness of one of the posters, who was NOT the person that I had cussed out (I told them that I was sorry too), but I had offended with my words. I PM'd her, and told her that I was sorry, and to please forgive me. She wrote back in her pm, that there was nothing to forgive. BUT YET...she continues thread after thread, to bring it up...something that happened months ago. Anyway...its not only that...but, what shill said to me about being cold blooded, and that if I accidently killed my child, that I would stage a coverup. He, for some reason...was trying to compare me to Patsy....APPLES and ORANGES...IMO. He was trying to rile me up, so that I would see how Patsy feels about being accused of something that she didn't do. Problem with that is, I believe that Patsy DID DO it. I may decide to come back in the future, but my family means more to me than this board...and even though I have always known that, I was somewhat addicted to this board, and sometimes ignoring my children, to post back and forth to people that I don't really even know. I thank shill for snapping me back to reality, and to what is most important. He doesn't realize it...but actually he did me a huge favor. I am going to miss posting with each and every one of you (yes, including you...shill...;) ) I want to wish everyone (RDI's, IDI's, PDI's JDI's) a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Take Care!!!!

Take Care Ames

Posters you have just seen true CLASS in action....She is right the insults have to stop if they don't more posters who have more knowledge about this case will just continue to drop away. What does it prove to hurl insults you think it makes you right? Big....So smart....It makes you lack what Ames possessed. Shes a real class act. I am glad I got to know you Ames. CK

[shill]

Not after tonight, I won't be.

Good for you Ames. You were beating a dead horse. Even if Patsy did it, she's dead, there is no way to bring her to justice, and you were wasting your time that should be spent with your kids.
Any you PDI people are just in it so they can say, "I told you so" because there is no way to punish Patsy at this point. It's over for you.

However, if she didn't do it, the rest of us are continuing to pursue the person who did do it so you can sleep at night.

[andU]

Did anyone see Dateline last evening? It was about a cold case investigation regarding the murder of 4 people... the perp had an alibi, but the investigator felt suspicious about it. After years of searching and many interviews, he found what he was looking for. Although the alibi was that the perp had witnesses (and a video at a hotel) that he was in Atlanta, he had with the help of his nephew, flown to Fl. and commited the murders, with a time restriction... the airport parking ticket was the proof and the investigator finally found it with the help of airport officials... the guy was convicted and will be sentenced after the first of the year, the jury recommended the death penalty...
So, does this sound familiar? .... who has an 'alibi' and much more time to play with than the perp in Dateline did? Huh?

[sweetcharlotte]

Did anyone see Dateline last evening? It was about a cold case investigation regarding the murder of 4 people... the perp had an alibi, but the investigator felt suspicious about it. After years of searching and many interviews, he found what he was looking for. Although the alibi was that the perp had witnesses (and a video at a hotel) that he was in Atlanta, he had with the help of his nephew, flown to Fl. and commited the murders, with a time restriction... the airport parking ticket was the proof and the investigator finally found it with the help of airport officials... the guy was convicted and will be sentenced after the first of the year, the jury recommended the death penalty...
So, does this sound familiar? .... who has an 'alibi' and much more time to play with than the perp in Dateline did? Huh?

John Mark Karr or one of his friends? Did his wife ever find pictures of him during Christmas 1996? :shrug: (I'll bet that's not who you had in mind?)

[andU]

John Mark Karr or one of his friends? Did his wife ever find pictures of him during Christmas 1996? :shrug: (I'll bet that's not who you had in mind?)


No, Sweet, I was referring to JAR, actually.. but it could mean anyone with this type of alibi.... it sets up a scenario that no one can be eliminated by the word of another person regarding whereabouts.
Except for the Ramsey's .... maybe? .... joke, just a joke....

[sweetcharlotte]

No, Sweet, I was referring to JAR, actually.. but it could mean anyone with this type of alibi.... it sets up a scenario that no one can be eliminated by the word of another person regarding whereabouts.
Except for the Ramsey's .... maybe? .... joke, just a joke....

Oh, dear. That would open up a can of worms - Fleet, for example?

BTW - I knew who you were referring to. I've always throught about an acquaintance of JAR's, someone at school - blackballed from a fraternity, someone who had to work their way through school while JAR lived the good life..... but, I ramble.

[shill]

Did anyone see Dateline last evening? It was about a cold case investigation regarding the murder of 4 people... the perp had an alibi, but the investigator felt suspicious about it. After years of searching and many interviews, he found what he was looking for. Although the alibi was that the perp had witnesses (and a video at a hotel) that he was in Atlanta, he had with the help of his nephew, flown to Fl. and commited the murders, with a time restriction... the airport parking ticket was the proof and the investigator finally found it with the help of airport officials... the guy was convicted and will be sentenced after the first of the year, the jury recommended the death penalty...
So, does this sound familiar? .... who has an 'alibi' and much more time to play with than the perp in Dateline did? Huh?

Well there's proof that alibis can be an elaborate deception.
I guess there is no reason to be suspicious of JAR's alibi.

[andU]

Oh, dear. That would open up a can of worms - Fleet, for example?

BTW - I knew who you were referring to. I've always throught about an acquaintance of JAR's, someone at school - blackballed from a fraternity, someone who had to work their way through school while JAR lived the good life..... but, I ramble.

Ramble on ... we are here to sound our thoughts. Yes, this opens the door to many ....

[Coloradokares]

Good for you Ames. You were beating a dead horse. Even if Patsy did it, she's dead, there is no way to bring her to justice, and you were wasting your time that should be spent with your kids.
Any you PDI people are just in it so they can say, "I told you so" because there is no way to punish Patsy at this point. It's over for you.

However, if she didn't do it, the rest of us are continuing to pursue the person who did do it so you can sleep at night.

Shill I have thought re thought and thought again ... I agree with everything you said including pursuing the person who did do it so we can sleep at night. Especially in my neck of the woods so to speak. Thankyou. Only thing we wouldn't agree is if Patsy did it ...and at this point the only one who could know that for sure for fact is the one who did it if Patsy did not. But my gut says if she did the world should know that too so they can sleep at night. You know your post about let this be my wake up call. I have not had a good night sleeps since. I hear everything every little sound. Something about it left me paranoid here in Boulder Valley. I think I had the mistaken impression since we don't have many murders .... there was this false illusion of saftey. If you feel you must keep looking and pursuing its because you feel the murderer is still out there at large. Always go with your gut and your heart. But justice is about more than seeing someone go to trial. Its about closure and proper assignment of responsibility for the crime. Perhaps in the end that will be left for God in this case. I could live with that.

[Tober]

Oh, dear. That would open up a can of worms - Fleet, for example?
Fleet had nothing to do with the crime, nor does that open up a can of worms. The circumstantial evidence (behavioral and physical) points to a person or persons residing in the home as the offender. The forensic evidence substantiates this.

[rashomon]

Fleet had nothing to do with the crime, nor does that open up a can of worms. The circumstantial evidence (behavioral and physical) points to a person or persons residing in the home as the offender. The forensic evidence substantiates this.
Indeed it does.
But I do think that what the Whites have to say about then Ramsey case would indeed open up a can of worms - pointing to the Ramseys as the perps.
For example, the Whites simply KNEW which clothes JB had been wearing to their party, therefore they KNEW if Patsy's initial statement about JB wearing a turtleneck shirt to the party was right or wrong.
Or if Patsy's later statement where she claimed JB was wearing the sequined shirt to the party was right or wrong.

And isn't it strange that none of the Ramseys ever demanded that these pictures be released, since (suppose they were innocent) they could only bolster the truth of their statements?
But all we ever got was deafening silence on their part.

[sweetcharlotte]

Fleet had nothing to do with the crime, nor does that open up a can of worms. The circumstantial evidence (behavioral and physical) points to a person or persons residing in the home as the offender. The forensic evidence substantiates this.

Oh, I see.

[Louisadelmar]

snort.....

[sweetcharlotte]

Indeed it does.
But I do think that what the Whites have to say about then Ramsey case would indeed open up a can of worms - pointing to the Ramseys as the perps.
<snip>




Well, why don't they say what they have to say? Are they under a court order not to speak?

[shill]

For example, the Whites simply KNEW which clothes JB had been wearing to their party, therefore they KNEW if Patsy's initial statement about JB wearing a turtleneck shirt to the party was right or wrong.
Or if Patsy's later statement where she claimed JB was wearing the sequined shirt to the party was right or wrong.

And isn't it strange that none of the Ramseys ever demanded that these pictures be released, since (suppose they were innocent) they could only bolster the truth of their statements?
But all we ever got was deafening silence on their part.So why haven't the photos been released, regardless of what the Ramseys want or don't want?

You make it look like the Ramseys are keeping the photos from the public. Just more of your typical spin.

[TuscanDreams]

Well, why don't they say what they have to say? Are they under a court order not to speak?

The Ramseys, now John alone, claim that whatever they do/did is on the advice of their attorney. Who's going to know if that's true- attorney and client privilege means Lin Wood isn't going on LKL to state, "Hey, John, that's not really what I told you."

I ignore this case because it ticks me off to no end. A tiny little girl died and her parents were made into martyrs, instead of suspects as they remain.

[shill]

The Ramseys, now John alone, claim that whatever they do/did is on the advice of their attorney. Who's going to know if that's true- attorney and client privilege means Lin Wood isn't going on LKL to state, "Hey, John, that's not really what I told you."

I ignore this case because it ticks me off to no end. A tiny little girl died and her parents were made into martyrs, instead of suspects as they remain.

The Whites, not the Ramseys.
Why haven't the Whites spoken?

[Sprocket]

I think the Whites will speak if and when charges are ever filed.

[Coloradokares]

Well, why don't they say what they have to say? Are they under a court order not to speak?

There is little doubt here in Colorado that they shall. But it won't be to the media or to the tabloids. It will be in a formal setting under oath. You know of course how he felt about the GJ. Have you read Fleet Whites letters.They can be found at FFJ. I will provide the link if you request it. He is still active in seeking an Office of Special Prosecutor.

[rashomon]

So why haven't the photos been released, regardless of what the Ramseys want or don't want?

You make it look like the Ramseys are keeping the photos from the public. Just more of your typical spin.
Don't twist my words. I wrote that the Ramseys never asked that the photos be released. They don't have the pictures, I suppose the DA's office has them since they are in charge of the case.
You can ask Mary Lacy and her minions why the DA's office doesn't release the photos.
My guess is that Lacy (just like A. Hunter before her) wants to keep the Ramseys under the umbrella of "protection".

[shill]

Don't twist my words. I wrote that the Ramseys never asked that the photos be released. They don't have the pictures, I suppose the DA's office has them since they are in charge of the case.
You can ask Mary Lacy and her minions why the DA's office doesn't release the photos.
My guess is that Lacy (just like A. Hunter before her) wants to keep the Ramseys under the umbrella of "protection".
Your words are already twisted. Don't you mean, "don't untwist my words"?

[rashomon]

Shill: you seem to need a reminder that that name calling is against the TOS of this board.

[andU]

Fleet had nothing to do with the crime, nor does that open up a can of worms. The circumstantial evidence (behavioral and physical) points to a person or persons residing in the home as the offender. The forensic evidence substantiates this.

Really? Why then have there been charges filed? Forensic evidence would stand up in court to convict.... and that has happened so I doubt your statement.

[shill]

Shill: you seem to need a reminder that that name calling is against the TOS of this board.

You mean like calling someone ignorant?

[rashomon]

You mean like calling someone ignorant?
You know exactly what I mean. Just look up one of your posts where you called someone "Nonsenseposter".

[shill]

You know exactly what I mean. Just look up one of your posts where you called someone "Nonsenseposter".
Before or after she called me ignorant?

[Tober]

Why then have there been charges filed?

I assume you meant to ask "Why then haven't there been charges filed?" You'd have to ask Alex Hunter and Mary Lacy that question. If I answered I'd be speculating and I don't want to do that.

[sweetcharlotte]

I assume you meant to ask "Why then haven't there been charges filed?" You'd have to ask Alex Hunter and Mary Lacy that question. If I answered I'd be speculating and I don't want to do that.

Maybe you'll give us just a little hint about the "forensic evidence?"

[Louisadelmar]

I assume you meant to ask "Why then haven't there been charges filed?" You'd have to ask Alex Hunter and Mary Lacy that question. If I answered I'd be speculating and I don't want to do that.

Maybe Henry Lee can help you:

"Thirteen months later, when its deliberations were completed but before the panel had the chance to vote on indicting one or both Ramseys, I told the D.A. that the best course of action would be to not file charges...he knew I was right -- the case at that point was unwinnable."

Usually what makes a case unwinnable is a lack of evidence.

[nuisanceposter]

Before or after she called me ignorant?
Now be fair, that's not exactly what I said. I said Linda pats you and your ignorance on the back. That's not an insult. Ignorant means you don't know, and imo, Shill, you have demonstrated that there is a good bit you don't know about this case.

That's no reason to twist my name in attempt to insult me, but I don't expect any better behavior from you by this point.

[Tober]

Maybe Henry Lee can help you:

"Thirteen months later, when its deliberations were completed but before the panel had the chance to vote on indicting one or both Ramseys, I told the D.A. that the best course of action would be to not file charges...he knew I was right -- the case at that point was unwinnable."


I agree with Dr. Lee that at that point in time, the case was unwinnable. At this point in time, the case is absolutely winnable.

[LindaA]

Okay, Tober, I'll bite. Why is it winnable now? New evidence?

[Coloradokares]

Okay, Tober, I'll bite. Why is it winnable now? New evidence?


Let me take a stab at it. Because the laws that protect a man and wife from not having to testify against each other....end upon one of the spouses death? So John would if called have to testify against any participation on Patsy's part and plead the 5th regarding his own. If the evidence points squarely in that direction, and they got something irrefutable, he cannot plead or decline to answer the question. He could purjure himself but to what point.

[Tober]

Let me take a stab at it. Because the laws that protect a man and wife from not having to testify against each other....end upon one of the spouses death? So John would if called have to testify against any participation on Patsy's part and plead the 5th regarding his own. If the evidence points squarely in that direction, and they got something irrefutable, he cannot plead or decline to answer the question. He could purjure himself but to what point.

The evidentiary threshold has been met to warrant obstruction of justice charges.

[Coloradokares]

The evidentiary threshold has been met to warrant obstruction of justice charges.

But will anything ever be pursued along those lines. IS that the buzz you feel here now. Things are changing and you can feel it. I thought perhaps its was the JMK thing ....then maybe the anniversary. But its not simple to explain away. Call it a feeling.

[Tober]

But will anything ever be pursued along those lines. IS that the buzz you feel here now. Things are changing and you can feel it.

I don't like to go by feelings because they can be deceptive. Let's just say time is never on the side of a criminal.

[andU]

Really? Why then have there been charges filed? Forensic evidence would stand up in court to convict.... and that has happened so I doubt your statement.

Boy, I sure keyed this in hurriedly! Sorry, it was supposed to say "Why have there been no charges filed? ....and that has not happened...."
I'm sorry for the errors, guys and gals!

[nuisanceposter]

I have invested hundreds of hours of research in this case. I have a creative insight you totally lack and will you'll never understand. Your ignorance shows in your belief that you know it all, but you don't. That's not an insult, you just don't know how to form an original thought.

Judging who I am and how I think from hearing me talk about this case on a message board displays more than ignorance, Shill, almost as much as your unpleasant habit of intentionally insulting people who don't agree with you.

I don't know it all about this case, I never claimed to, but I've spent ten years talking about this - from the first time I ever heard JonBenet's unusual name and found out she was killed on Christmas til now - and at this point my creative insight in this particular case has been burnt out by all the evidence I see stacked up against the Rs.

This case has haunted me all these years, burning into obsession, inspiring me to find more and more information in an effort to find out exactly what happened to JonBenet and who did it to her. I was very pleased when my family got online and I found other people who were as interested as me and could present new information, and offer conversation that left me wondering and searching to find out more.

I haven't always been RDI, either, and there have been times when I have questioned RDI.

I don't know how to form an original thought? Hmmm, sounds like an insult. Exactly what I'd expect from you. You're incapable of any other behavior.