View Full Version : Do you think there has been evidence that has been withheld?
LindaA
12-08-2006, 10:40 AM
We have never seen the pictures that were taken at the White's party on Christmas day which would show what the Ramsey family were wearing that day and also how JBR's hair was styled.
We've never seen autopsy photos of anything other than JBR's hands, neck and areas adjacent to them.
Parts of the autopsy have been redacted.
Do you feel these items have been purposely with held from the public? Are there other items that may also have been kept secret?
Yes, I know what DA Lacy said after the JMK episode, but I'm sure the items I mentioed do exist and are in LE custody. I'm wondering if there are other items as well.
We have never seen the pictures that were taken at the White's party on Christmas day which would show what the Ramsey family were wearing that day and also how JBR's hair was styled.
We've never seen autopsy photos of anything other than JBR's hands, neck and areas adjacent to them.
Parts of the autopsy have been redacted.
Do you feel these items have been purposely with held from the public? Are there other items that may also have been kept secret?
Yes, I know what DA Lacy said after the JMK episode, but I'm sure the items I mentioed do exist and are in LE custody. I'm wondering if there are other items as well.
If memory serves me right, there are over 3,000 items in a warehouse that have not been completely looked at by anyone. Seems like that would mean there are over 3,000 items that the DA knows about, but the list has not been released to the public.
Louisadelmar
12-08-2006, 01:12 PM
It would be interesting to know if the letter to the Westword editor was accurate and the DNA found in the underpants was 10 to 12 times the concentration of 'trace' DNA found in other packages.
Added: Tried to post the link but for some reason I keep getting "Http error" messages.
bullmoose
12-08-2006, 02:07 PM
In my opinion, there doubtless a great deal of evidence being withheld in this case; I think that what Karr was saying from Thailand matched what they knew, but had not ever released to the public, which is one of the reasons they wanted him back for DNA testing. Iwould love to see that link, Louisdelmar, if you can get it to post, it sounds fascinating.
If there weren't items kept from the public this case may as well be closed, there is no way it could be solved with what is known. I don't think the BPD has too many intelligent officers, but perhaps the DA, or one of them in the past ten years has shown enough 'kidneys' to hold back ... but, then the 'word' is that it hasn't even been tested or investigated... wish I could find that link where I read that, I'm sure it was a Boulder newspaper.
Louisadelmar
12-08-2006, 02:23 PM
Got this link from FFJ. There must be something hidden in the post that stops a direct transfer from Westword. Or maybe its just my computer ignorance. Scroll about halfway down. The section title is "Pucker Up"
http://www.westword.com/Issues/2006...ws/letters.html
We have never seen the pictures that were taken at the White's party on Christmas day which would show what the Ramsey family were wearing that day and also how JBR's hair was styled.
We've never seen autopsy photos of anything other than JBR's hands, neck and areas adjacent to them.
Parts of the autopsy have been redacted.
Do you feel these items have been purposely with held from the public? Are there other items that may also have been kept secret?
Yes, I know what DA Lacy said after the JMK episode, but I'm sure the items I mentioed do exist and are in LE custody. I'm wondering if there are other items as well.
Yep, I believe that alot of evidence has been withheld. Remember on the "48 Hours" Special with John Ramsey (the recent show, a couple of weeks ago), didn't they say that John Mark Karr was lured with a photo taken of JB and Patsy...and it was taken right before she died? It was mailed to Karr, by that guy, Tracey. I wonder when that picture was taken...and if it may have been one that was taken at the White's Christmas party. The voiceover said that it was the last photo taken of her. I just now thought about that...I didn't think much of it when I was watching the show. Anyway...I would LOVE to know where those pictures are...and how JB's hair was fixed at the party. That would answer alot of questions...(IMO)
Yep, I believe that alot of evidence has been withheld. Remember on the "48 Hours" Special with John Ramsey (the recent show, a couple of weeks ago), didn't they say that John Mark Karr was lured with a photo taken of JB and Patsy...and it was taken right before she died? It was mailed to Karr, by that guy, Tracey. I wonder when that picture was taken...and if it may have been one that was taken at the White's Christmas party. The voiceover said that it was the last photo taken of her. I just now thought about that...I didn't think much of it when I was watching the show. Anyway...I would LOVE to know where those pictures are...and how JB's hair was fixed at the party. That would answer alot of questions...(IMO)
They showed the photo that was sent to Karr. You might have blinked or something. It was the photo taken on Christmas morning. The last photo taken of JB and Patsy.
And just like everything else about the White's, the pictures and questioning seem to be hidden away, for no one's eyes. That is what I would like to know where that is. Why is everything that has to do with Fleet White a deep dark secret? What is he hiding?
They showed the photo that was sent to Karr. You might have blinked or something. It was the photo taken on Christmas morning. The last photo taken of JB and Patsy.
And just like everything else about the White's, the pictures and questioning seem to be hidden away, for no one's eyes. That is what I would like to know where that is. Why is everything that has to do with Fleet White a deep dark secret? What is he hiding?
Oh, I thought that they said that it was the LAST photo taken of her before she died. Fleet White has a roll that was taken at his party....of JB and Patsy....and THOSE would have been the last photos of her....not the Christmas morning ones. Maybe they didn't mean the VERY last one...who knows. I am sure that Fleet White turned those pictures over...because he gave one to investigators of JB and Patsy (to show what she was wearing at the party...I guess they used it as evidence to show to Patsy, and to ask her if thats what she remembered wearing to the party). Anyway...he has turned over the pictures....so, its not Fleet that is hiding evidence. (IMO)
Coloradokares
12-09-2006, 04:11 AM
They showed the photo that was sent to Karr. You might have blinked or something. It was the photo taken on Christmas morning. The last photo taken of JB and Patsy.
And just like everything else about the White's, the pictures and questioning seem to be hidden away, for no one's eyes. That is what I would like to know where that is. Why is everything that has to do with Fleet White a deep dark secret? What is he hiding?
I hope you understand that Fleet and Priscilla White befriended them invited them to social events and dinner. They have done more than perhaps any other in trying to see to it that JonBenet has justice. Its not a deep dark secret. To imply this is simply wrong. He has not hidden anything if anything he has been the most vocal. Fleet and Priscilla White have been cleared and are of no interest to the case except that as witnesses.
Coloradokares
12-09-2006, 04:21 AM
They showed the photo that was sent to Karr. You might have blinked or something. It was the photo taken on Christmas morning. The last photo taken of JB and Patsy.
And just like everything else about the White's, the pictures and questioning seem to be hidden away, for no one's eyes. That is what I would like to know where that is. Why is everything that has to do with Fleet White a deep dark secret? What is he hiding?
If the photo was taken on Christmas morning they were not at the Whites. They were at home. That picture has been seen many times nothing sinister about that. They did not go to the Whites till evening. Everyone would like to see any photos taken at the Whites. Perhaps that is evidence and sealed away? What I can tell you is this if the police or office of the DA wanted any such photos if indeed any were taken, they either have them or could obtain them without a problem. Respectfully my question is this if you befriended someone and their daughter ended up dead. Would you wish for your life to be smeared and thrown under a bus of suspicion by that set of friends without cause . Believe me the Whites were scrutinized. One day they may well get their chance in a court of law. I personally hope that they do. They have persued justice for JonBenet relentlessly . To this day.
shill
12-09-2006, 04:46 AM
I hope you understand that Fleet and Priscilla White befriended them invited them to social events and dinner. They have done more than perhaps any other in trying to see to it that JonBenet has justice. Its not a deep dark secret. To imply this is simply wrong. He has not hidden anything if anything he has been the most vocal. Fleet and Priscilla White have been cleared and are of no interest to the case except that as witnesses.
How were they cleared?
sweetcharlotte
12-09-2006, 07:28 AM
How were they cleared?
lol - DNA? They had an alibi - each other?? JMO
If the photo was taken on Christmas morning they were not at the Whites. They were at home. That picture has been seen many times nothing sinister about that. They did not go to the Whites till evening. Everyone would like to see any photos taken at the Whites. Perhaps that is evidence and sealed away? What I can tell you is this if the police or office of the DA wanted any such photos if indeed any were taken, they either have them or could obtain them without a problem. Respectfully my question is this if you befriended someone and their daughter ended up dead. Would you wish for your life to be smeared and thrown under a bus of suspicion by that set of friends without cause . Believe me the Whites were scrutinized. One day they may well get their chance in a court of law. I personally hope that they do. They have persued justice for JonBenet relentlessly . To this day.
I didn't say the photo was taken at the White's and I know they were at home. Nor did I say there was anything sinister about it. Ames asked what photo was sent to Karr. I was explaining to Ames that the one they showed on TV was the one of Patsy and JB on Christmas morning. They said it was the last picture taken of Patsy and JB together.
And most of what happened with Fleet White with the Ramseys was brought on by Fleet White himself. CK, I feel that you know them personally or you are related to the Whites somehow, and to be honest, I am tired of reading your posts about how great they are and about being thrown under the bus. IMO Fleet White has protested way too much. Fleet White is at the top of my suspect list. Has been for a long time, but this is JMO.
<snipped>
I was explaining to Ames that the one they showed on TV was the one of Patsy and JB on Christmas morning. They said it was the last picture taken of Patsy and JB together.
Fleet White supposedly took some of JB and Patsy together at his party. It was a picture of the both of them that he gave to investigators....for evidence as to what Patsy was wearing. (I am sure that Patsy didn't deny what she was wearing, but the investigators wanted a picture to show to her, just to make sure). So, the pictures that Fleet took, would be the last ones of them together. Too bad they haven't been released.
Coloradokares
12-10-2006, 12:52 AM
I didn't say the photo was taken at the White's and I know they were at home. Nor did I say there was anything sinister about it. Ames asked what photo was sent to Karr. I was explaining to Ames that the one they showed on TV was the one of Patsy and JB on Christmas morning. They said it was the last picture taken of Patsy and JB together.
And most of what happened with Fleet White with the Ramseys was brought on by Fleet White himself. CK, I feel that you know them personally or you are related to the Whites somehow, and to be honest, I am tired of reading your posts about how great they are and about being thrown under the bus. IMO Fleet White has protested way too much. Fleet White is at the top of my suspect list. Has been for a long time, but this is JMO.
I believe you said last photos which the ones that morning at home may not have been last photos. Pardon my misunderstanding as it is believed photos were taken at whites. I do NOT know the Whites. I am as equally tired of reading your posts about how awful the Whites were when you don't know them from ADAM!!. None of you do. I at least know people who are well acquainted with the Whites. You feel free to leave White at the the pinnacle of your suspect list. I don't know if we shall ever see this case concluded but if we do. Then and only then shall we see the Whites sealed testimony and evidence. Personally I think if it was prosecutable against the Whites they'd be serving time by now..... JMO
shill
12-10-2006, 05:55 AM
I believe you said last photos which the ones that morning at home may not have been last photos. Pardon my misunderstanding as it is believed photos were taken at whites. I do NOT know the Whites. I am as equally tired of reading your posts about how awful the Whites were when you don't know them from ADAM!!. None of you do. I at least know people who are well acquainted with the Whites. You feel free to leave White at the the pinnacle of your suspect list. I don't know if we shall ever see this case concluded but if we do. Then and only then shall we see the Whites sealed testimony and evidence. Personally I think if it was prosecutable against the Whites they'd be serving time by now..... JMO
So people who know the Whites say they are good people, so we can't bash them. But people who know the Ramseys say they are good people, and they're fair game.
You need to take your emotions out of your opinion to be taken seriously.
You seem to drift farther and farther from the truth even though you think you're closer to it then anyone posting here.
And I don't need to hear your tired story of how you are not RDI or IDI because no one is buying it.
Athena
12-10-2006, 12:49 PM
So people who know the Whites say they are good people, so we can't bash them. But people who know the Ramseys say they are good people, and they're fair game.
You need to take your emotions out of your opinion to be taken seriously.
You seem to drift farther and farther from the truth even though you think you're closer to it then anyone posting here.
And I don't need to hear your tired story of how you are not RDI or IDI because no one is buying it.
Exactly Shill. Those people who knew the Ramseys said nothing negative about them either. However, I have read excerpts from various people who described White's behavior as bizarre and totally irrational and this came from people who knew the Whites. It is possible FW had nothing to do with JBR's death and just as possible that he did. JMO
Athena
12-10-2006, 12:54 PM
Just so everyone is clear; this is the picture that is referred to the picture sent to JMK. It was taken Christmas morning while JBR was still in her pajamas and what was shown in the documentary:
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc250.jpg
Just so everyone is clear; this is the picture that is referred to the picture sent to JMK. It was taken Christmas morning while JBR was still in her pajamas and what was shown in the documentary:
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc250.jpg
Thank you Athena, for posting that. (I cried when I saw that picture again...thinking that JB had no idea that it would be her last morning alive!) She and Patsy look so happy!! HOW SAD!!! There are other pictures though, that were taken of Patsy with JB at Fleet's party....darn it...I just wished that they would be released. I am just curious as to JB's hairstyle at the party...I would be happy just to find that out. (Looks like the investigators would have thought to ask the other people that attended the party about JB's hair....they may have, and that could be just another piece of evidence that is being kept from the public....who knows). Thanks again!
Just so everyone is clear; this is the picture that is referred to the picture sent to JMK. It was taken Christmas morning while JBR was still in her pajamas and what was shown in the documentary:
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc250.jpg
Thank you Athena. That is the picture I was referring to, I just failed to follow through with a link. Will make sure I do so from now on, so there is no confusion.
So people who know the Whites say they are good people, so we can't bash them. But people who know the Ramseys say they are good people, and they're fair game.
You need to take your emotions out of your opinion to be taken seriously.
You seem to drift farther and farther from the truth even though you think you're closer to it then anyone posting here.
And I don't need to hear your tired story of how you are not RDI or IDI because no one is buying it.
I totally agree.
thewhitewitch1
12-10-2006, 11:38 PM
So people who know the Whites say they are good people, so we can't bash them. But people who know the Ramseys say they are good people, and they're fair game.
You need to take your emotions out of your opinion to be taken seriously.
You seem to drift farther and farther from the truth even though you think you're closer to it then anyone posting here.
And I don't need to hear your tired story of how you are not RDI or IDI because no one is buying it.
I don't know the Whites so I can't base my opinion on their innocence on whether they are good people or not. I can base it on the fact that there is no evidence of their involvement and no motive.
Whether the Ramseys are/were good people or not is a moot point. It was their home that their child was found dead in and there IS evidence that they may have killed her. That's the difference between the Whites and the Ramseys. IMO
I don't know the Whites so I can't base my opinion on their innocence on whether they are good people or not. I can base it on the fact that there is no evidence of their involvement and no motive.
Whether the Ramseys are/were good people or not is a moot point. It was their home that their child was found dead in and there IS evidence that they may have killed her. That's the difference between the Whites and the Ramseys. IMO
I second that....my thoughts exactly. If JB had been found dead in the White's home...then THAT would be a different story.
Coloradokares
12-11-2006, 01:05 AM
So people who know the Whites say they are good people, so we can't bash them. But people who know the Ramseys say they are good people, and they're fair game.
You need to take your emotions out of your opinion to be taken seriously.
You seem to drift farther and farther from the truth even though you think you're closer to it then anyone posting here.
And I don't need to hear your tired story of how you are not RDI or IDI because no one is buying it.
You can and do bash whomever you wish anytime you wish without any seeming hesitation. Why? Not that you will hear the truth in what I am saying but I'll tell it to you anyway. I base my opinions on what I have seen across the years . In addition to some of the opinions of those who I know. Do your friends opinions of others mean anything to you. Mine do to me as well. Its how life is. Its hard not to when you have sat down with a banana nut muffin and spice tea and helped them through grief. Yes grief. The murder was more than headlines to some out here. The fact is there is no evidence as far as I am concerned that would indicate to me that those who knew the Whites were wrong and they are killers. As to the Ramseys I am not going to repeat it Shill. Hold whatever opinion you wish. I mean you no disrespect at all. Its just I thought we were to repectfully present our opinions. Even when those opinions would disagree. I can live with those forum requirements. Would you be willing to do the same? I am not bashing you. You just don't see things from my perspective because you did not live here. Maybe no one can unless they do.
shill
12-11-2006, 01:59 AM
You just don't see things from my perspective because you did not live here. Maybe no one can unless they do.
You could never serve on a jury for this case because your point of view has been corrupted by hearsay and opinions. That's all I'm saying.
thewhitewitch1
12-11-2006, 02:29 AM
You could never serve on a jury for this case because your point of view has been corrupted by hearsay and opinions. That's all I'm saying.
None of us could serve on a jury for this case because we all have our own opinions; whether "corrupted by hearsay" or not. So why single CK out?
She is much closer to this case than we are and has heard and seen things that we have not. Living where she does, how could she not let what she has seen and heard help form the opinion that she has?
shill
12-11-2006, 03:52 AM
None of us could serve on a jury for this case because we all have our own opinions; whether "corrupted by hearsay" or not. So why single CK out?
She is much closer to this case than we are and has heard and seen things that we have not. Living where she does, how could she not let what she has seen and heard help form the opinion that she has?
You're exactly right. Apparently she has heard the Whites are to good to be suspects, so that's good enough for her.
Good thing you can't bring people to trial based on whether people like them or not.
Eagle1
12-11-2006, 06:07 AM
If memory serves me right, there are over 3,000 items in a warehouse that have not been completely looked at by anyone. Seems like that would mean there are over 3,000 items that the DA knows about, but the list has not been released to the public.
Wow, that's a lot of information. "All I want for Christmas" is just a little of that!
None of us could serve on a jury for this case because we all have our own opinions; whether "corrupted by hearsay" or not. So why single CK out?
She is much closer to this case than we are and has heard and seen things that we have not. Living where she does, how could she not let what she has seen and heard help form the opinion that she has?
Other than second person unproven as fact information, we all have access to the same information. I would prefer the official information to gossip or someone's opinion if it were to be considered fact. However, we are all here to share opinions and thoughts....CK has a right to hers, but she shouldn't get upset when someone else's doesn't agree with her. I have deep reservations regarding the innocence of the Whites, myself.
nuisanceposter
12-11-2006, 11:19 AM
Why do people suspect the Whites? They had the party that night, they had guests visiting from California, they came over when called by Patsy the next morning (invited over, not barged in), and they asked more than once for more investigation, including a special prosecutor. When did they have time to come kill JonBenet, why would they want her dead, and how did they do it without leaving forensic evidence of having been there?
Coloradokares
12-11-2006, 12:08 PM
Other than second person unproven as fact information, we all have access to the same information. I would prefer the official information to gossip or someone's opinion if it were to be considered fact. However, we are all here to share opinions and thoughts....CK has a right to hers, but she shouldn't get upset when someone else's doesn't agree with her. I have deep reservations regarding the innocence of the Whites, myself.
andu I would really like for you to please bring up and repost any posting that I made that were disrespectful. Where I called anyone a name or questioned their intelligence etc...for not agreeing with me. I totally respect that you have deep reservation regarding the innocence of the Whites. That is of course your right. However ask yourself this. Isn't it more like others getting upset at me because I have some opinions that are possibly affected by personal experience and what you call local gossip. Please also take your own advice regarding getting upset when someone does not agree with you. The reason I don't agree is 3 fold. Evidence... Reputation and personal Just living it is the short way of saying it.
Why do people suspect the Whites? They had the party that night, they had guests visiting from California, they came over when called by Patsy the next morning (invited over, not barged in), and they asked more than once for more investigation, including a special prosecutor. When did they have time to come kill JonBenet, why would they want her dead, and how did they do it without leaving forensic evidence of having been there?
The only thing I have to go on is my gut feeling and the lack of information or the information that hasn't been made public. It leaves room for qustions, ya know? I'm not pointing at them, by any means, but until more information is provided I will remain suspicious of them.
andu I would really like for you to please bring up and repost any posting that I made that were disrespectful. Where I called anyone a name or questioned their intelligence etc...for not agreeing with me. I totally respect that you have deep reservation regarding the innocence of the Whites. That is of course your right. However ask yourself this. Isn't it more like others getting upset at me because I have some opinions that are possibly affected by personal experience and what you call local gossip. Please also take your own advice regarding getting upset when someone does not agree with you. The reason I don't agree is 3 fold. Evidence... Reputation and personal Just living it is the short way of saying it.
No, I am not upset with you. You have just as much right to your opinion as I do mine. I would just like more information, that is not second or third person, that's all.
.......There are other pictures though, that were taken of Patsy with JB at Fleet's party....darn it...I just wished that they would be released. I am just curious as to JB's hairstyle at the party...I would be happy just to find that out.
I am very curious about why JB's hairstyle at the party is relevant to the case. Can you explain this...I'm just not following....
thanks.
I am very curious about why JB's hairstyle at the party is relevant to the case. Can you explain this...I'm just not following....
thanks.
Sure...because the Ramsey's claim that JB was asleep and carried straight to bed, and never woke up. When her body was found, it was in ponytails, and hair ties.....IF she didn't wear her hair like that to the White's party....then that makes the Ramsey's liars. (Because she would have had to have been awake at some point, for her hair to be fixed like that....in one of Patsy's interviews, she was asked how JB wore her hair to bed...Patsy answered..that she wore her hair in a ponytail). I will find that link if you need it.
Coloradokares
12-11-2006, 03:34 PM
No, I am not upset with you. You have just as much right to your opinion as I do mine. I would just like more information, that is not second or third person, that's all.
You and I have shared that information as well on this forum or others. Much is out on the public domain and or in books or articles. When we share links that is all your getting the same info round and round it goes. What I do have to offer is a unique perspective for those who choose to listen. People who knew them!! Grant I keep names private as you'd want yours held private in a public forum on the internet to in a public forum in a big case like this. That is why we use poster names versus our own in public forums. I can tell you what the air smelled like that night .... Like those across the nation that alone in Dallas can the day the president shot......This case was never small. Not from the moment it broke. It was also a feel in the air it was never a kidnapping.... All your going to get here is 10 years of rehash and more altering of the facts that has taken place in the last 10 years to support one side or the other.......that is not a disputed fact. Till there is a trial or indictment made you have access to all that is public. Unless your new to this murder ..... and your fascination is relatively new....nothing really new will surface after 10 years. Not till there is some move in Boulder to bring a suspect to trial. Or you have a JMK like advent.
shill
12-11-2006, 04:28 PM
Why do people suspect the Whites? They had the party that night, they had guests visiting from California, they came over when called by Patsy the next morning (invited over, not barged in), and they asked more than once for more investigation, including a special prosecutor. When did they have time to come kill JonBenet, why would they want her dead, and how did they do it without leaving forensic evidence of having been there?
Fleet went down in the basement before John that morning, didn't find JB. Fleet went back down in the basement by himself for several minutes after JB's body had been brought upstairs. Fleet had access to JB when she would stay at their house, which someone molesting her would need. Fleet new boat knots, which were used in the ligature. John said Fleet may have tape like the kind found on JB. Fleet lived close enough to pull off this crime. There is suspicion that alleges the White's drugged JB with a special treat. Fleet stood mute as they interrogated Burke at his house. He has steered the investigation towards the Ramseys. There are case histories of killers getting involved and pushing the investigation of their own crime. John was suspicious of Fleet.
Sure...because the Ramsey's claim that JB was asleep and carried straight to bed, and never woke up. When her body was found, it was in ponytails, and hair ties.....IF she didn't wear her hair like that to the White's party....then that makes the Ramsey's liars. (Because she would have had to have been awake at some point, for her hair to be fixed like that....in one of Patsy's interviews, she was asked how JB wore her hair to bed...Patsy answered..that she wore her hair in a ponytail). I will find that link if you need it.
Good point...I've never heard that before. Thanks for clearing it up.
Sure...because the Ramsey's claim that JB was asleep and carried straight to bed, and never woke up. When her body was found, it was in ponytails, and hair ties.....IF she didn't wear her hair like that to the White's party....then that makes the Ramsey's liars. (Because she would have had to have been awake at some point, for her hair to be fixed like that....in one of Patsy's interviews, she was asked how JB wore her hair to bed...Patsy answered..that she wore her hair in a ponytail). I will find that link if you need it.
How does it make the Ramseys liars? The last time they saw their daughter alive, her hair was in a ponytail. How is that a lie? There is nothing proven anywhere that says the killer did not fix her hair in the two ponytails and hair ties.
Louisadelmar
12-11-2006, 06:27 PM
Sure...because the Ramsey's claim that JB was asleep and carried straight to bed, and never woke up. When her body was found, it was in ponytails, and hair ties.....IF she didn't wear her hair like that to the White's party....then that makes the Ramsey's liars. (Because she would have had to have been awake at some point, for her hair to be fixed like that....in one of Patsy's interviews, she was asked how JB wore her hair to bed...Patsy answered..that she wore her hair in a ponytail). I will find that link if you need it.
http://www.bestfreeforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=829&highlight=&mforum=sanctuary2#829
[…]
At the party on the 23rd JonBenet had a sort of Alice in Wonderland hairstyle with the front and side pulled back and up. (Standard girls style). If she wore a similar style to the Whites, Patsy could have just gathered the rest of her hair in a low ponytail at the base of her head when she undressed her so there would be fewer tangles to deal with in the morning. Down low it wouldn't be uncomfortable to sleep on. That's what I would have done when my daughter was young and had long hair.
[…]
If the child is a heavy sleeper, which apparently JonBenet was; it would be nothing to prop her up in bed with her head on your shoulder (still asleep) slip off the vest and grab the hair and put an elastic on with a couple twists. This action might account for jacket fibers in her hair. Alternatively - if she was on her side you could just put the ponytail in.
watson
12-11-2006, 07:29 PM
Among the evidence witheld from the public in this case (as far as I know),...the lab reports of the samples taken at autopsy.......forensic analysis of the coil of rope supposedly found in the bedroom next to JB's, forensic analysis of the knots used in the wrist and garrote, and neck ties, forensic analysis of composition of the lengths of white flat cord used in the crime, and whether or not they are a pair of shoelaces (as they appear to be), whether 1 of the blankets in the basement came from JB's bed, where the other blanket came from ( if there were 2 blankets). The full DNA report.
Forensic analysis report of the duct tape.
How does it make the Ramseys liars? The last time they saw their daughter alive, her hair was in a ponytail. How is that a lie? There is nothing proven anywhere that says the killer did not fix her hair in the two ponytails and hair ties.
Who says it was in a ponytail?? Thats what the pictures that were taken at the White's would prove...how was her hair fixed? I said that the Ramsey's would be liars....IF JB' hair was down at the party. BECAUSE...John claims that she was asleep in the car, so he brought her inside and carried her to bed. Patsy claims in one of her interviews that she kept the shirt on JB that she wore to the party, but changed her pants...and that JB never woke up. Patsy's words were that JB was "zonked"...so she never moved. IF her hair was down at the Whites...(we don't know, because we have never seen the pictures)....and she was found in two ponytails (which I highly doubt that Patsy would have fixed her hair like that for a party).....then the Ramsey's lied about her being asleep when she got home. You say that there is nothing proven anywhere that says the killer did not fix her hair in the two ponytails and hair ties. SURELY you MUST be kidding!!! I hope that you are an RDI...because that would ONLY make sense if the killer was PATSY. (IMO)
http://www.bestfreeforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=829&highlight=&mforum=sanctuary2#829
[…]
At the party on the 23rd JonBenet had a sort of Alice in Wonderland hairstyle with the front and side pulled back and up. (Standard girls style). If she wore a similar style to the Whites, Patsy could have just gathered the rest of her hair in a low ponytail at the base of her head when she undressed her so there would be fewer tangles to deal with in the morning. Down low it wouldn't be uncomfortable to sleep on. That's what I would have done when my daughter was young and had long hair.
[…]
If the child is a heavy sleeper, which apparently JonBenet was; it would be nothing to prop her up in bed with her head on your shoulder (still asleep) slip off the vest and grab the hair and put an elastic on with a couple twists. This action might account for jacket fibers in her hair. Alternatively - if she was on her side you could just put the ponytail in.
That poster was just guessing to what JB hairstyle was at the party. That theory just supports RDI...because, Patsy, nowhere, in any of her interviews, said anything about pulling her hair back in a low ponytail while she was sleeping. I certainly think that if this was the case, and the fibers were mentioned to Patsy..that she would have said..."Oh well...I can explain that...I pulled her hair up into a ponytail". Not once has she ever menioned putting JB's hair in a ponytail on that night.
Louisadelmar
12-11-2006, 11:00 PM
That poster was just guessing to what JB hairstyle was at the party. That theory just supports RDI...because, Patsy, nowhere, in any of her interviews, said anything about pulling her hair back in a low ponytail while she was sleeping. I certainly think that if this was the case, and the fibers were mentioned to Patsy..that she would have said..."Oh well...I can explain that...I pulled her hair up into a ponytail". Not once has she ever menioned putting JB's hair in a ponytail on that night.
I think she was guessing based on the hairstyle on the 23rd.
As near as I can find, other than the following exchange in 1997, they never asked her about what was done with her hair.
ST: Did JonBenet normally sleep in addition to her jewelry with any hair ties in her hair.
PR: Usually, uh, a rubberband.
ST: Pulled back into a single ponytail.
PR: Back, ponytail, yeah.
ST: When JonBenet would undress, uh, either pajamas or out of her normal clothes, uh, what would she do with those clothes? Would they be discarded on the floor where they hit . . .
PR: Um hum.
ST: . . .or go to a hamper? Just hit the floor.
PR: (Inaudible) hit the floor.
I think she was guessing based on the hairstyle on the 23rd.
As near as I can find, other than the following exchange in 1997, they never asked her about what was done with her hair.
ST: Did JonBenet normally sleep in addition to her jewelry with any hair ties in her hair.
PR: Usually, uh, a rubberband.
ST: Pulled back into a single ponytail.
PR: Back, ponytail, yeah.
ST: When JonBenet would undress, uh, either pajamas or out of her normal clothes, uh, what would she do with those clothes? Would they be discarded on the floor where they hit . . .
PR: Um hum.
ST: . . .or go to a hamper? Just hit the floor.
PR: (Inaudible) hit the floor.
THANK YOU so much for posting that part of Patsy's interview...I looked for TWO hours today and could not find it. Yep, its very possible that Patsy could have pulled her hair back in a ponytail (personally I wouldn't think that she would want to risk waking her up..thats why she didn't change her shirt), but...I would imagine that she would have told investigators about that, when she was telling them how she redressed her in the long john type pants...and about folding the sheets down for her. They wanted to know every move that Patsy made...I just think that IF she had of put her hair up in the ponytails...that she would have told them about it. (IMO) I cannot BELIEVE that they didn't ask her about that....geez. I think that would have been very important.
thewhitewitch1
12-11-2006, 11:36 PM
Fleet went down in the basement before John that morning, didn't find JB. Fleet went back down in the basement by himself for several minutes after JB's body had been brought upstairs. Fleet had access to JB when she would stay at their house, which someone molesting her would need. Fleet new boat knots, which were used in the ligature. John said Fleet may have tape like the kind found on JB. Fleet lived close enough to pull off this crime. There is suspicion that alleges the White's drugged JB with a special treat. Fleet stood mute as they interrogated Burke at his house. He has steered the investigation towards the Ramseys. There are case histories of killers getting involved and pushing the investigation of their own crime. John was suspicious of Fleet.
John went down the basement that morning and there is no proof that Fleet went down there before him.
John had access to JB and could have molested her.
John knew boat knots which were used in the ligature...or he should have. We have only his word that he didn't.
I've never read where John said Fleet had tape like the kind used. Why wouldn't John say anything to try to implicate Fleet? The first thing a murderer is going to do is try to point the LE in any direction except his own.
What "special treat?" Other guests at the party ate the cracked crab too. The autopsy report showed no drugs in her system.
Do you know for a fact that Fleet was even there when the police questioned Burke? Why would he try to stop them anyway? He had no authority to do so.
He probably steered the investigation towards the Ramseys because he thinks they killed her.
I don't think John was suspicious of Fleet. He was just trying to get the heat off of himself. IMO
I do not see any reason to believe that he had anything at all to do with the murder. If he acted eratically at times, I would imagine it would be pretty upsetting to realize that your friends murdered their own child.
At least there is one friend of the Ramseys who believes they did it and they were about as close of friends as you can get so that is not a belief that can easily be blown off. IMO
At any rate, your reasons for being suspicious of Fleet can easily be applied to John as well.
shill
12-12-2006, 01:50 AM
At any rate, your reasons for being suspicious of Fleet can easily be applied to John as well.
I have to agree.
John went down the basement that morning and there is no proof that Fleet went down there before him.
John had access to JB and could have molested her.
John knew boat knots which were used in the ligature...or he should have. We have only his word that he didn't.
I've never read where John said Fleet had tape like the kind used. Why wouldn't John say anything to try to implicate Fleet? The first thing a murderer is going to do is try to point the LE in any direction except his own.
What "special treat?" Other guests at the party ate the cracked crab too. The autopsy report showed no drugs in her system.
Do you know for a fact that Fleet was even there when the police questioned Burke? Why would he try to stop them anyway? He had no authority to do so.
He probably steered the investigation towards the Ramseys because he thinks they killed her.
I don't think John was suspicious of Fleet. He was just trying to get the heat off of himself. IMO
I do not see any reason to believe that he had anything at all to do with the murder. If he acted eratically at times, I would imagine it would be pretty upsetting to realize that your friends murdered their own child.
At least there is one friend of the Ramseys who believes they did it and they were about as close of friends as you can get so that is not a belief that can easily be blown off. IMO
At any rate, your reasons for being suspicious of Fleet can easily be applied to John as well.
JB had a 'special' treat in that a plate had been made up for her, not everyone ate off of that particular plate, did they? .... One could speculate about that, there is no proof either way about it...
I have to agree.
Yes, I agree, also... there are a list of people under my personal umbrella of suspicion... some of which do not have names, at this time.
Isn't it possible that her hair was put into ponytails after she wet her bed and Patsy changed her shirt/clothes? If so - the Ramseys may not necessarily be liars - maybe her hair was changed later. Read the following section from the attached link where it says the turtleneck was taken off after she wet the bed:
-------------
"Later JonBenet awakened after wetting her bed, as indicated by the plastic sheets, the urine stains, the pull-up diaper package hanging halfway out of a cabinet, and the balled-up turtleneck found in the bathroom. I concluded that the little girl had worn the red turtleneck to bed, as her mother originally said, and that it was stripped off when it got wet.
----------------
Also - the following (same link) states that John and Fleet went to the basement together:
At about 1 p.m., when no call had been received from a kidnapper, Det. Arndt asked John Ramsey, Fleet White and Fernie to go through the house to "check for any sign of JonBenet, or anything that might have been left or taken that belonged to JonBenet."
A search warrant affidavit tells the story adequately:
"John Ramsey immediately went to the basement of the house, followed by Fleet White and John Fernie. Within a few minutes, Fleet came running upstairs, grabbed the telephone in the back office located on the first floor, and yelled for someone to call for an ambulance.
http://www.crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm
Isn't it possible that her hair was put into ponytails after she wet her bed and Patsy changed her shirt/clothes? If so - the Ramseys may not necessarily be liars - maybe her hair was changed later. Read the following section from the attached link where it says the turtleneck was taken off after she wet the bed:
-------------
"Later JonBenet awakened after wetting her bed, as indicated by the plastic sheets, the urine stains, the pull-up diaper package hanging halfway out of a cabinet, and the balled-up turtleneck found in the bathroom. I concluded that the little girl had worn the red turtleneck to bed, as her mother originally said, and that it was stripped off when it got wet.
----------------
<snipped>
http://www.crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm
The problem with that is...Patsy said that JB didn't wet the bed that night...which I DO NOT believe. IMO
thewhitewitch1
12-12-2006, 10:57 AM
Isn't it possible that her hair was put into ponytails after she wet her bed and Patsy changed her shirt/clothes? If so - the Ramseys may not necessarily be liars - maybe her hair was changed later. Read the following section from the attached link where it says the turtleneck was taken off after she wet the bed:
-------------
"Later JonBenet awakened after wetting her bed, as indicated by the plastic sheets, the urine stains, the pull-up diaper package hanging halfway out of a cabinet, and the balled-up turtleneck found in the bathroom. I concluded that the little girl had worn the red turtleneck to bed, as her mother originally said, and that it was stripped off when it got wet.
----------------
Also - the following (same link) states that John and Fleet went to the basement together:
At about 1 p.m., when no call had been received from a kidnapper, Det. Arndt asked John Ramsey, Fleet White and Fernie to go through the house to "check for any sign of JonBenet, or anything that might have been left or taken that belonged to JonBenet."
A search warrant affidavit tells the story adequately:
"John Ramsey immediately went to the basement of the house, followed by Fleet White and John Fernie. Within a few minutes, Fleet came running upstairs, grabbed the telephone in the back office located on the first floor, and yelled for someone to call for an ambulance.
http://www.crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm
Fleet White and John Ramsey each went into the basement seperately on the morning of the murder. Your quote is from when they were asked by Det. Arndt to look for clues. That's when they went to the basement together and found her body.
nuisanceposter
12-12-2006, 11:01 AM
LHP said those weren't the same sheets she had seen on the bed, and CBI found traces of creatine on the sheets.
This hardly gets mentioned, but another poster at WS had said some time ago that there was a photo of a pair of JonBenet's pants on the floor with the undies still in them, with a visible Hershey stripe on them. It looked like the pants had been pulled down and stepped out of and left right where they were taken off. I always wonder about that. What pants were they, and when had they been worn last?
Fleet White and John Ramsey each went into the basement seperately on the morning of the murder. Your quote is from when they were asked by Det. Arndt to look for clues. That's when they went to the basement together and found her body.
Who went first? John? What is the source?
LHP said those weren't the same sheets she had seen on the bed, and CBI found traces of creatine on the sheets.
This hardly gets mentioned, but another poster at WS had said some time ago that there was a photo of a pair of JonBenet's pants on the floor with the undies still in them, with a visible Hershey stripe on them. It looked like the pants had been pulled down and stepped out of and left right where they were taken off. I always wonder about that. What pants were they, and when had they been worn last?
Yep, I think that Patsy is lying about that bedwetting incident. I think that was the source of the rage from Patsy....she was getting just a little bit sick and tired of having to change her six year old's clothes and bed sheets, every single night. She admitted in one of the interviews...I will see if I can find it, if needed....that they had a "few coctails" (did I spell that right?) at the party...so, she may have been a little bit tipsy....who knows? That could have something to do with the rage, too. People that drink get MEAN!! I SHOULD KNOW. Especially, if she wasn't used to it....one or two drinks could of pushed her over the edge...and she says that they had a "few". Wonder how many "a few" is? I had never heard that before about the pants on the floor with a visible Hershey stripe ....what color were they?? Did they look like pajama bottoms?
thewhitewitch1
12-12-2006, 03:58 PM
Who went first? John? What is the source?
Nobody seems to know who went first. I've read that FW went down 15 minutes after he arrived at the Ramseys. JR could have went down at any time. He says he did but but I believe he says it was later in the morning. He also claims he didn't know FW went down there. All we have is JRs word about anything and personally, I don't believe his word is worth much of anything. IMO
thewhitewitch1
12-12-2006, 04:00 PM
http://www.bestfreeforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=829&highlight=&mforum=sanctuary2#829
[…]
At the party on the 23rd JonBenet had a sort of Alice in Wonderland hairstyle with the front and side pulled back and up. (Standard girls style). If she wore a similar style to the Whites, Patsy could have just gathered the rest of her hair in a low ponytail at the base of her head when she undressed her so there would be fewer tangles to deal with in the morning. Down low it wouldn't be uncomfortable to sleep on. That's what I would have done when my daughter was young and had long hair.
[…]
If the child is a heavy sleeper, which apparently JonBenet was; it would be nothing to prop her up in bed with her head on your shoulder (still asleep) slip off the vest and grab the hair and put an elastic on with a couple twists. This action might account for jacket fibers in her hair. Alternatively - if she was on her side you could just put the ponytail in.
If you're not going to bother changing her shirt, why would you bother putting her hair in a ponytail? And if you did, why wouldn't you mention that little detail to the LE? She also never mentioned removing any vest.
Come on, she got quite detailed about other things and she was asked detailed questions.
If you're not going to bother changing her shirt, why would you bother putting her hair in a ponytail? And if you did, why wouldn't you mention that little detail to the LE? She also never mentioned removing any vest.
Come on, she got quite detailed about other things and she was asked detailed questions.
I agree with this. She didn't want to wake her up, thats why she just changed her pants. I would think that putting her hair up in a ponytail would wake her up, too. Somebody messing with my hair, brushing....putting rubberbands in...etc....would sure wake ME up. (IMO)
shill
12-12-2006, 05:44 PM
Some people become mean drunks. Some become very friendly and loving.
I think someone would have come forward by now and pointed out the Ramseys are mean drunks if they were.
To imply Patsy is a mean lying drunk to justify your point of view is just pure malicious slander.
Some people become mean drunks. Some become very friendly and loving.
I think someone would have come forward by now and pointed out the Ramseys are mean drunks if they were.
To imply Patsy is a mean lying drunk to justify your point of view is just pure malicious slander.
Nopey, nope, nope....I never said that Patsy WAS a mean drunk. If you are referring to my earlier post, I said that it was POSSIBLE (I didn't say that it happened for sure, because I don't know...I wasn't there) that she was a little TIPSY (she admitted to having a "few" drinks)...and therefore could have snapped a little easier at JB. ESPECIALLY if she usually wasn't a drinker. I STILL think that Patsy flew into a rage....whether she drank "a few" cocktails or not. So, I don't need for her to be a "lying drunk to justify my point of view". Its just a thought, that has never been brought up before...the fact that, in her own words....said that she had a "few cocktails" at the party. I would like to know just how many is a "few". (IMO)
Louisadelmar
12-12-2006, 06:02 PM
If you're not going to bother changing her shirt, why would you bother putting her hair in a ponytail? And if you did, why wouldn't you mention that little detail to the LE? She also never mentioned removing any vest.
Come on, she got quite detailed about other things and she was asked detailed questions.
1997 interview:
PR: And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and uh, went in the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants. . .
I would never try and remove a pullover top from a sleeping child. Also there is no need to brush her hair. You just grab what's hanging down and slip a rubberband on it.
1997 interview:
PR: And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and uh, went in the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants. . .
I would never try and remove a pullover top from a sleeping child. Also there is no need to brush her hair. You just grab what's hanging down and slip a rubberband on it.
But YET...she changed her pants...and put those tight long underwear (longjohns) on her. You would THINK that would have woke her up. WHY leave on the shirt...but change her pants anyway??? That really makes no sense to me. I could maybe understand it, if she put on a pair of loose pajama bottoms....but LONGJOHNS??? Especially if she was trying not to wake her up.
shill
12-12-2006, 06:14 PM
Nopey, nope, nope....I never said that Patsy WAS a mean drunk. If you are referring to my earlier post, I said that it was POSSIBLE (I didn't say that it happened for sure, because I don't know...I wasn't there) that she was a little TIPSY (she admitted to having a "few" drinks)...and therefore could have snapped a little easier at JB. ESPECIALLY if she usually wasn't a drinker. I STILL think that Patsy flew into a rage....whether she drank "a few" cocktails or not. So, I don't need for her to be a "lying drunk to justify my point of view". Its just a thought, that has never been brought up before...the fact that, in her own words....said that she had a "few cocktails" at the party. I would like to know just how many is a "few". (IMO)
Come on Aims, you implied she was a "mean lying drunk" by making all those statements, don't try and play innocent with me.
Come on Aims, you implied she was a "mean lying drunk" by making all those statements, don't try and play innocent with me.
Play innocent? Me? NO, never...LOL
No I didn't IMPLY that she was a "mean, lying, drunk"...its just another theory..just like all of the rest of the ones on this board. I KNOW that Patsy was not a drunk...just from what I have heard about her. When I think of someone that is DRUNK...I think of falling down, slurring....that sort of thing. I do not believe for ONE SKINNY second that Patsy was that sort of a person. I do, however, believe that she could have been a little bit "tipsy" not falling down drunk. I mean...she DID have a "few" drinks...according to her own admission. If she wasn't USED to drinking, then a "few" drinks....would be like drinking 10. IMO
Louisadelmar
12-12-2006, 07:21 PM
But YET...she changed her pants...and put those tight long underwear (longjohns) on her. You would THINK that would have woke her up. WHY leave on the shirt...but change her pants anyway??? That really makes no sense to me. I could maybe understand it, if she put on a pair of loose pajama bottoms....but LONGJOHNS??? Especially if she was trying not to wake her up.
Because the pants you can just slip down and off and then slip the longjohns back up and on while she's still laying down asleep. In my experience kid's longjohns are pretty stretchy and loose. The shirt you have to sit her up and thread her arms out and then pull the whole thing up over her head. Its all just more complicated.
Louisadelmar
12-12-2006, 07:23 PM
Yep, I think that Patsy is lying about that bedwetting incident. I think that was the source of the rage from Patsy....she was getting just a little bit sick and tired of having to change her six year old's clothes and bed sheets, every single night. She admitted in one of the interviews...I will see if I can find it, if needed....that they had a "few coctails" (did I spell that right?) at the party...so, she may have been a little bit tipsy....who knows? That could have something to do with the rage, too. People that drink get MEAN!! I SHOULD KNOW. Especially, if she wasn't used to it....one or two drinks could of pushed her over the edge...and she says that they had a "few". Wonder how many "a few" is? I had never heard that before about the pants on the floor with a visible Hershey stripe ....what color were they?? Did they look like pajama bottoms?
Where does she say they had a "few"?
1997:
ST: Patsy, in some ways I, I know more about your family than I know about my own, but uh, to the best of my knowledge and what everybody tells me neither you nor John are drinkers, your social drinkers as best. Did you have anything to drink on the night of the 25th at the Whites? A glass of wine.
PR: We may have had a glass of wine. I know John is very cautious about, I mean, knowing that he is going to fly the next, you know, does not, uh, you know, drink a lot.
ST: So certainly neither of you . . .
PR: I mean we may have had, and I’m very, I don’t drink a lot because my chemo did a number on my liver so I, I don’t, we just don’t drink a lot.
ST: So I’m assuming neither you nor John was intoxicated . . .
PR: No.
ST: . . .by any means that night.
PR: No, no, no.
thewhitewitch1
12-12-2006, 11:47 PM
Where does she say they had a "few"?
1997:
ST: Patsy, in some ways I, I know more about your family than I know about my own, but uh, to the best of my knowledge and what everybody tells me neither you nor John are drinkers, your social drinkers as best. Did you have anything to drink on the night of the 25th at the Whites? A glass of wine.
PR: We may have had a glass of wine. I know John is very cautious about, I mean, knowing that he is going to fly the next, you know, does not, uh, you know, drink a lot.
ST: So certainly neither of you . . .
PR: I mean we may have had, and I’m very, I don’t drink a lot because my chemo did a number on my liver so I, I don’t, we just don’t drink a lot.
ST: So I’m assuming neither you nor John was intoxicated . . .
PR: No.
ST: . . .by any means that night.
PR: No, no, no.
It's funny how John was so careful about how much he drank that night, and took a Melatonin tablet to sleep well because he was flying the plane the next morning when he was NOT going to be the one piloting the plane.
shill
12-13-2006, 02:21 AM
Play innocent? Me? NO, never...LOL
No I didn't IMPLY that she was a "mean, lying, drunk"...its just another theory..just like all of the rest of the ones on this board. I KNOW that Patsy was not a drunk...just from what I have heard about her. When I think of someone that is DRUNK...I think of falling down, slurring....that sort of thing. I do not believe for ONE SKINNY second that Patsy was that sort of a person. I do, however, believe that she could have been a little bit "tipsy" not falling down drunk. I mean...she DID have a "few" drinks...according to her own admission. If she wasn't USED to drinking, then a "few" drinks....would be like drinking 10. IMO
You're killing me Ames!
"FEW"=10="DRUNK"= You're still saying she is "A Mean Lying Drunk"
sweetcharlotte
12-13-2006, 01:31 PM
You're killing me Ames!
"FEW"=10="DRUNK"= You're still saying she is "A Mean Lying Drunk"
And yet she was still able to participate in a murder and staging well enough to stumped LE. Amazing...... JMO
bullmoose
12-13-2006, 02:14 PM
To TWW: What is so strange about having only a glass of wine when he would be flying the next morning. Wasn't he going to co-pilot the flight; if so then he wanted to be rested with a clear head for the flight; for commercial pilots a level of .02 is unacceptable; one glass of wine the nihjt before would easily metabilize by morning. They were flying into the Twin Cities, where air traffic was fairly heavy, so I think he was just being prudent to have an experienced pilot,when he was more of a hobbyist.
thewhitewitch1
12-13-2006, 03:18 PM
To TWW: What is so strange about having only a glass of wine when he would be flying the next morning. Wasn't he going to co-pilot the flight; if so then he wanted to be rested with a clear head for the flight; for commercial pilots a level of .02 is unacceptable; one glass of wine the nihjt before would easily metabilize by morning. They were flying into the Twin Cities, where air traffic was fairly heavy, so I think he was just being prudent to have an experienced pilot,when he was more of a hobbyist.
What is strange is the insinuation repeatedly made that he would be piloting the plane. Not co-piloting it but actually piloting it. Nowhere have I ever seen mention of him co-piloting. I can look for links and post them, if you'd like.
You're killing me Ames!
"FEW"=10="DRUNK"= You're still saying she is "A Mean Lying Drunk"
Okay, NOW you are putting words into my mouth...I didn't say that she had 10...she said that she had a few. And I see where theres another interview with ST, that she says that she didn't have ANY. I am going to find and post the interview where she says "A FEW". I NEVER EVER said that Patsy was a mean, lying drunk...you are putting words into my mouth. A little tipsy is NOT the same as drunk...IMO
TT: Okay. So give me kind of a step by step, get to the Whites 5:30, 6:00, 6:30 whatever, what time did you have dinner that night? What did you do before dinner after dinner?
PR: Well, we had um, I think we had cocktails, kind of, she had some cracked crab left over from their Christmas even dinner and we sampled some of that and I remember she kind of, for some reason, made a little plate for JonBenet or I remember her making a special plate for JonBenet for some reason so she would have some crab. . .
This is one of the interviews where she mentions cocktails....she "thinks" they had cocktails, KIND OF. What is THAT supposed to mean. How do you "kind of " have a cocktail???
And yet she was still able to participate in a murder and staging well enough to stumped LE. Amazing...... JMO
SC...please go back and read my post to shill....I NEVER said that Patsy was a drunk. I do not believe that she was...and he is putting words into my mouth. I said that she said that she had cocktails at the White's party...and in the earlier part of the interview, she stated that she didn't drink....SO...I am just a little bit confused on that. Could cocktails mean something else? I have always thought that it meant an alcoholic drink. Anyway, I NEVER EVER accused her of being a drunk. All that I said is that she may have been a little bit tipsy, after the party. That is hardly calling her a drunk. (IMO)
shill
12-14-2006, 05:45 AM
I mean...she DID have a "few" drinks...according to her own admission. If she wasn't USED to drinking, then a "few" drinks....would be like drinking 10. IMOIYO you believe her level of intoxication was equivalent to 10 drinks.
Few=10=Drunk
shill
12-14-2006, 05:54 AM
People that drink get MEAN!! I SHOULD KNOW. Especially, if she wasn't used to it.... one or two drinks could of pushed her over the edge...and she says that they had a "few". Wonder how many "a few" is?
I'm not putting words in your mouth. You just can't hear what you're saying.
LindaA
12-14-2006, 07:16 AM
I'm sorry, Shill, but a "few" does not mean ten. It means 3 or 4 to me, but that's just my opinion.
shill
12-14-2006, 08:26 AM
I'm sorry, Shill, but a "few" does not mean ten. It means 3 or 4 to me, but that's just my opinion.
Tell Ames that.
shill
12-14-2006, 08:27 AM
A single pubic hair, what aren't they telling us?
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/1005jon.htm
Coloradokares
12-14-2006, 12:54 PM
A single pubic hair, what aren't they telling us?
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/1005jon.htm
I think this must be a fairly dated article. That hair had been resolved quite some time ago. If you need a link on this can we do it tomorrow. I am baking cakes and lighting candles out here today.....
nuisanceposter
12-14-2006, 01:00 PM
Yeah, that article was from October of 97.
Oooh, cake! Yummy...and candles, a nice warm glow. I just love Christmas. Have fun, CK!
Coloradokares
12-14-2006, 01:57 PM
Yeah, that article was from October of 97.
Oooh, cake! Yummy...and candles, a nice warm glow. I just love Christmas. Have fun, CK!]
Thanks....next to decorate the cake.... lots to do today....I love Christmas and everything about it. Now if only we'd get some nice snow. Not just a dusting. A nice fluffy snow would be nice. Just in time for Christmas even better. Its greyish and overcast out here today. Yesterday the view of the FlatIrons were so incredible they were just so demensional standing out in the sunshine and "clear air" that I almost took a picture of them on my phone to send to you all, remembered we can't send attachements so didn't. Rare we have that kind of air clarity out here anymore. Smog. UG. I love everything about Colorado the snow the skiing the crisp air. The incredible warm days down here on the deck. I was born in Colorado....and yesterday was one of the days that reminded me of the views of the hills I had in my childhood. No smog. Today smog. Bound to have tons of fun thanks Nuisanceposter.
Tell Ames that.
OKAY, you got me...I was exaggerating just a bit ....but, IF you are not used to drinking....then a few....could probably feel like a few more than a few. There...is THAT better????:o
shill
12-15-2006, 04:28 AM
OKAY, you got me...I was exaggerating just a bit ....but, IF you are not used to drinking....then a few....could probably feel like a few more than a few. There...is THAT better????:o
I know what you were saying. You were saying she could be drunk even though she didn't drink that much. But your point was, she was drunk, hence you were calling her a drunk that night. And you explained that she was capable of doing what she did based on your knowledge of how mean some drunks can be.
Again, I proclaim you inadvertently called Patsy a Mean Drunk.
Athena
12-15-2006, 08:01 AM
]
Thanks....next to decorate the cake.... lots to do today....I love Christmas and everything about it. Now if only we'd get some nice snow. Not just a dusting. A nice fluffy snow would be nice. Just in time for Christmas even better. Its greyish and overcast out here today. Yesterday the view of the FlatIrons were so incredible they were just so demensional standing out in the sunshine and "clear air" that I almost took a picture of them on my phone to send to you all, remembered we can't send attachements so didn't. Rare we have that kind of air clarity out here anymore. Smog. UG. I love everything about Colorado the snow the skiing the crisp air. The incredible warm days down here on the deck. I was born in Colorado....and yesterday was one of the days that reminded me of the views of the hills I had in my childhood. No smog. Today smog. Bound to have tons of fun thanks Nuisanceposter.
Such a vivid description and I can actually see it. I so love Christmas too and everything associated with it. :)
Athena
12-15-2006, 08:06 AM
LHP said those weren't the same sheets she had seen on the bed, and CBI found traces of creatine on the sheets.
This hardly gets mentioned, but another poster at WS had said some time ago that there was a photo of a pair of JonBenet's pants on the floor with the undies still in them, with a visible Hershey stripe on them. It looked like the pants had been pulled down and stepped out of and left right where they were taken off. I always wonder about that. What pants were they, and when had they been worn last?
NP: Do you have a link to where it is stated that CBI tested those sheets?
From ST's depo:
24 Q. Did you ever see the written
25 report on that finding by CBI?
276
1 A. I don't know that CBI did a
2 report on whether or not the sheets were
3 urine stained.
4 Q. Surely you're not telling me that
5 the CBI's forensic testers performed, the only
6 test was to smell and look at the sheets?
7 A. As I said, I have been told that
8 there is not a presumptive test for urine.
9 Q. How about for the substances that
10 make up or are found in urine?
11 A. I have no training or knowledge of
12 that.
13 Q. How big was the area of the
14 sheets where they were urine stained or wet?
15 A. I don't know.
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm
It's funny how John was so careful about how much he drank that night, and took a Melatonin tablet to sleep well because he was flying the plane the next morning when he was NOT going to be the one piloting the plane.
If a person has a queazy stomach from alcohol consumption, they sure wouldn't want to fly, no matter who was piloting.
Louisadelmar
12-15-2006, 11:20 AM
It's funny how John was so careful about how much he drank that night, and took a Melatonin tablet to sleep well because he was flying the plane the next morning when he was NOT going to be the one piloting the plane.
Not funny at all. I would certainly expect the co-pilot to be as mentally alert as the pilot in the event he had to take over flying the plane.
Aside from that John loved flying. I think it's a safe bet he would have done some of the piloting on the trip.
LindaA
12-15-2006, 11:44 AM
Not funny at all. I would certainly expect the co-pilot to be as mentally alert as the pilot in the event he had to take over flying the plane.
Aside from that John loved flying. I think it's a safe bet he would have done some of the piloting on the trip.
Ya know what? Some people see guilt in the most innocent things. JR makes a responsible decision not to over-indulge and RDIs make an issue of it. If he had had one too many I'm sure that would also be an indication of his guilt.
LadyFisher
12-15-2006, 12:04 PM
LHP said those weren't the same sheets she had seen on the bed, and CBI found traces of creatine on the sheets.
This hardly gets mentioned, but another poster at WS had said some time ago that there was a photo of a pair of JonBenet's pants on the floor with the undies still in them, with a visible Hershey stripe on them. It looked like the pants had been pulled down and stepped out of and left right where they were taken off. I always wonder about that. What pants were they, and when had they been worn last?
Do you RDIs REALLY believe that this child was murdered by a sane mother nearly 40 y/o because of a bedwetting incident! I don't for a second believe that, it's nonsense! imho
I think this must be a fairly dated article. That hair had been resolved quite some time ago. If you need a link on this can we do it tomorrow. I am baking cakes and lighting candles out here today.....
I would like to see the link that gives information about the hair issue being resolved. Who's was it?
LadyFisher
12-15-2006, 12:12 PM
I would like to see the link that gives information about the hair issue being resolved. Who's was it?
I don't believe the owner of the pubic hair or the DNA found on JB's body has ever been found....yes, I believe those belong to the murderer, and the pubic hair and dna doesn't belong to JR or PR! jmho
nuisanceposter
12-15-2006, 01:01 PM
Do you RDIs REALLY believe that this child was murdered by a sane mother nearly 40 y/o because of a bedwetting incident! I don't for a second believe that, it's nonsense! imho
Honestly, I don't know what happened that night or who caused JonBenet's death or why, but I do not believe the evidence indicates anyone other than John and Patsy Ramsey were involved.
I stated the comment about the picture with JonBenet's pants in it because I think this entire aspect with JonBenet's toileting issues is somehow tied into why she is now dead. I'm not saying it's the only cause, but that it may somehow have been a contributing factor.
I've heard several different things about the pubic hair. I've heard it was an ancillary hair and not pubic hair. I heard it was Patsy's. Or Patsy said that they had houseguests all the time - it could have come from any of them. There's no proof that either the hair or the DNA came from the killer and only the killer.
I don't believe the owner of the pubic hair or the DNA found on JB's body has ever been found....yes, I believe those belong to the murderer, and the pubic hair and dna doesn't belong to JR or PR! jmho
LadyFisher, that was my thought, but CK said it had been resolved and I thought I may have missed it.
Coloradokares
12-15-2006, 04:45 PM
I would like to see the link that gives information about the hair issue being resolved. Who's was it?
I will have to go back it was on a forum it was posted. That the hair was later found to be a body hair not a pubic hair after all and from Patsy Ramsey. I'll see if I can find that post again.
LadyFisher
12-15-2006, 08:07 PM
I will have to go back it was on a forum it was posted. That the hair was later found to be a body hair not a pubic hair after all and from Patsy Ramsey. I'll see if I can find that post again.
CK, in the book DOI John and Patsy mention having to give samples of their pubic hair. I forgot which one said, it was a very humiliating experience. If there was no pubic hair, why would they have to be tested? They willingly gave all DNA, all hair samples, and writing samples that was requested of them. imho
Coloradokares
12-15-2006, 11:45 PM
CK, in the book DOI John and Patsy mention having to give samples of their pubic hair. I forgot which one said, it was a very humiliating experience. If there was no pubic hair, why would they have to be tested? They willingly gave all DNA, all hair samples, and writing samples that was requested of them. imho
I have given you the information I had on it. It was posted on another forum with a link that the hair in question was on JonBenets bedding correct? That was an ancillary hair and from Patsy Ramsey. I do not know if why or how come Patsy details the humiliating experience she did. Perhaps they were tested before the match was made. You are certainly entitled to whatever belief you hold Lady Fisher. I am still looking back and back and back to find where it was posted. and if link was provided at that posting. Bear with me . Its the holidays and drat it all I have a life. Complete with family and grandchildren and you name it. None of whom are impressed in the least that I feel compelled to sit on a computer on the forums of JonBenet. If I come across that posting I'll get you the link. If not I read it but will not feel offended if you choose to discard it not having seen it for yourself. It was listed under some part of something that said facts not facts or something like that,
I know what you were saying. You were saying she could be drunk even though she didn't drink that much. But your point was, she was drunk, hence you were calling her a drunk that night. And you explained that she was capable of doing what she did based on your knowledge of how mean some drunks can be.
Again, I proclaim you inadvertently called Patsy a Mean Drunk.
I am beginning to think that you just LIKE to argue with me....:tongue:
Well, IF you are referring to that night...and IF she was tipsy....and IF she flew in a rage at JB....then, YES...I guess that night she WAS a mean drunk. I don't think that she was someone that drank all the time though...because of her chemo. (I just want to make that clear).
I don't believe the owner of the pubic hair or the DNA found on JB's body has ever been found....yes, I believe those belong to the murderer, and the pubic hair and dna doesn't belong to JR or PR! jmho
Okay, I read...and I have NO CLUE how true it is, or WHERE I read it...that the pubic hair was thought to be an underarm hair of Patsy. I swear...I read that. I am not stating this as fact...just something that I have read. Has anyone else heard that before...if so, please post a link. TIA
Louisadelmar
12-16-2006, 12:06 AM
I remember there was much ado about this some years ago. Don't have a link but my recollection is it came from an un-named source. Don't remember underarms being mentioned and Patsy doesn't strike me as the type to not shave her pits. There was discussion that Patsy's arm's must look like King Kong's if they can't tell the difference between her arm hairs and her pubic hairs. I don't recall there every being a named, reliable source.
Coloradokares
12-16-2006, 12:19 AM
I remember there was much ado about this some years ago. Don't have a link but my recollection is it came from an un-named source. Don't remember underarms being mentioned and Patsy doesn't strike me as the type to not shave her pits. There was discussion that Patsy's arm's must look like King Kong's if they can't tell the difference between her arm hairs and her pubic hairs. I don't recall there every being a named, reliable source.
I know I read it and unfortunately it was years ago for me too. I also saw it all posted and I believe with link on a forum I was a part of. I cannot get in to find it back. But at the time I believe what it was called was an ancilliary hair or something to that effect. Identified as Patsys Now I am not sure what an ancilliary hair is. I thought arm or underarm. There is no saying how big that hair would have been No one is saying Patsy would need to braid her pit hairs together into piggytails. I don't remember ever reading how long the hair was or was not. Just that due its dense structure was considered to be at first from a pubic area. I am going to try to research this and see what I can find. I won't get it done this weekend though. Its the holiday madness time to take over.
bullmoose
12-16-2006, 06:59 PM
I would like to see any link showing a match to Patsy or ?? of the hair that was found in the basement. To me its like the DNA evidence on Jonbenet, it matches someone, but not the Ramseys. If it did, the BPD would have whispered it to their pals at the Globe and we'd have pictures of it, X-rays alongside the CBI report right on the cover of that highclass tabloid. But we don't, so until I see a link, I'll just doubt it, I think.:biggrin:
sweetcharlotte
12-21-2006, 06:24 PM
Did we ever get the hair riddle solved? :shrug:
sweetcharlotte
12-21-2006, 06:27 PM
Speaking of evidence - from the LKL interview with John Ramsey on 12/20/06 -
JR said, "You know, they feel pretty strongly they have the killer's DNA now. And, they have other samples to be tested which they are going to test when DNA is advanced further in its capabilities.
LindaA
12-21-2006, 06:33 PM
Sweetcharlotte, I heard that and was very interested in what it actually means.
sweetcharlotte
12-21-2006, 06:41 PM
Sweetcharlotte, I heard that and was very interested in what it actually means.
The "other samples" part was extremely interesting.
Coloradokares
12-21-2006, 08:40 PM
I apologize that this is not the whole be all do all end all momentum in my life. I know I said I'd really search high and low for the ancillary hair info. I know it was reported to be Patsys. Now to find the report. I thought Nusianceposter also posted this as well. I got me a mess back here. I got a husband whose throwing everything including the kitchen sink into denial and refusal to accept the potential ruination of travel plans while I am trying to dig us out as quickly as I can so we can get gone should travel become possible once again. Maybe right after christmas. If that isn't satisfactory some google suggestions would be Ancillary hair Patsy Ramsey JonBenet Murder investgation. Once I get us repacked I'll see what I can find if its not to late. Merry Christmas. One thing is for sure. Its a Colorado Christmas in the Colorado Snow.....
Coloradokares
12-21-2006, 10:21 PM
Did we ever get the hair riddle solved? :shrug:
http://www.crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-main.htm
ok I dug out some of my notes on my notes I see that this link talks about this not being a pubic hair on the blanket. Not sure if it says its Patsys or not. I am out of time for this till later. Hope this is what I was looking for. If not bear with me. I am at least trying to resubstantiate this again. Along with nuisanceposter who said the same thing I did. :shrug:
Louisadelmar
12-21-2006, 11:18 PM
http://www.crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-main.htm
ok I dug out some of my notes on my notes I see that this link talks about this not being a pubic hair on the blanket. Not sure if it says its Patsys or not. I am out of time for this till later. Hope this is what I was looking for. If not bear with me. I am at least trying to resubstantiate this again. Along with nuisanceposter who said the same thing I did. :shrug:
A "source close to the investigation" was I think as specific as it ever got.
Coloradokares
12-22-2006, 12:48 AM
A "source close to the investigation" was I think as specific as it ever got.
I didn't re read this article. So you could be right. In all fairness I will keep up the search till I can find back what it is that convinced me that this matter of the pubic hair was an ancillary hair.....Patsy's. I know I didn't loose my noodle and just invent it. I got this information somewhere and I must have felt it credible. Groan...and to think I am going to have to go through the same old stuffs again...I hope to get this puter either critically upgraded or a new one very very soon.
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