What Really Happened That Night

[thewhitewitch1]

You know, it would explain why John Ramsey screamed and why Fleet bolted; the sheer horror of finding your daughter hanging.


Are you saying that the police interviews with JR are "doctored" in some way? He clearly describes finding her on the floor wrapped in the blanket. How do you explain that? It's been his story since day one.

[thewhitewitch1]

I'm not following here. Is the theory that she was hanging by her neck or by her hands?


Good question. I just assumed hanging by her neck.
If John Walsh had "inside information" on the murder, do you really think he would be stupid enough to let it out on television? He'd be crucified by "team Ramsey" for spilling that kind of information.
You all can assume he knows what he's talking about but I think he just screwed up his info.
If not, John Ramsey lied to everyone.

[shill]

Good question. I just assumed hanging by her neck.
If John Walsh had "inside information" on the murder, do you really think he would be stupid enough to let it out on television? He'd be crucified by "team Ramsey" for spilling that kind of information.
You all can assume he knows what he's talking about but I think he just screwed up his info.

She was hanging by her hands! This has been asked and answered in detail, but still RDIs don't want to believe it.
So other then John, who knows what JB looked like in the wine cellar?
Answer: The killer and LE.
How do you think they are going to verify the real killer from the John Mark Karrs? JMK probably told LE she was hanging by her hands and that hooked them.

So much evidence has not been released.
The evidence we have at are disposal was never suppose to have been released in the first place.
Now rumors and speculation fuel these blog sites.
If not, John Ramsey lied to everyone.Wow, you act surprised John lied. I thought RDIs thought the Ramseys were just big fat liars.
Seriously, he can't tell the truth to the public about this. If that was the case LE would just make this whole case an open book to the public, and they should.

[thewhitewitch1]

She was hanging by her hands! This has been asked and answered in detail, but still RDIs don't want to believe it.
So other then John, who knows what JB looked like in the wine cellar?
Answer: The killer and LE.
How do you think they are going to verify the real killer from the John Mark Karrs? JMK probably told LE she was hanging by her hands and that hooked them.

So much evidence has not been released.
The evidence we have at are disposal was never suppose to have been released in the first place.
Now rumors and speculation fuel these blog sites.
Wow, you act surprised John lied. I thought RDIs thought the Ramseys were just big fat liars.
Seriously, he can't tell the truth to the public about this. If that was the case LE would just make this whole case an open book to the public, and they should.


So you are saying that he lied in his police interviews TO the police. We have all read them and he clearly tells the police that she was lying on the floor wrapped in the blanket. Why is he going to lie in a police interview?
There is NO evidence that she was hanging by her wrists; physical or otherwise.
What do you mean he can't tell the truth to the public? The police interviews were made public! Are you saying they are bogus?
I'm sure there is evidence that hasn't been released but you can't expect me or anyone to believe her hanging is part of evidence that you have no proof of.

[Athena]

She was hanging by her hands! This has been asked and answered in detail, but still RDIs don't want to believe it.
So other then John, who knows what JB looked like in the wine cellar?
Answer: The killer and LE.
How do you think they are going to verify the real killer from the John Mark Karrs? JMK probably told LE she was hanging by her hands and that hooked them.
<snip>


The keen interest in Karr was because he knew more about the details than what was published. This supports Shill's statement that Karr hung JBR by her wrists. It is also in the warrant document (pdf file - 96 pages) for JMK's arrest which I copied before they removed it from the internet as the link that I had is now dead unless someone else has it.

BOULDER, Colo. - In year after year of e-mails, John Mark Karr described an aching love for JonBenet Ramsey and grisly details of how he killed her.

How the girl was hung by a rope, her wrists tied together, and how she was slowly strangled to put her in a “dream-like state” before he performed oral sex. How he was a “dashing prince” who loved the girl, tasted her blood after the sex went too far and how he tried to revive her when he realized she was dead.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14562438/

[shill]

So you are saying that he lied in his police interviews TO the police. We have all read them and he clearly tells the police that she was lying on the floor wrapped in the blanket. Why is he going to lie in a police interview?Lying on the floor with her hands tied above her head, maybe a 1-2 ft. above floor level. You can be lying on a bed with your hands tied above your head to the headboard. The same thing but in a basement.

What do you mean he can't tell the truth to the public?
The police interviews were made public! Are you saying they are bogus?

I'm saying they were edited, along with the autopsy. Otherwise they would have been sealed with the rest of the testimonies.

[Athena]

Lying on the floor with her hands tied above her head, maybe a 1-2 ft. above floor level. You can be lying on a bed with your hands tied above your head to the headboard. The same thing but in a basement.


I'm saying they were edited, along with the autopsy. Otherwise they would have been sealed with the rest of the testimonies.

You will often see the word "redacted" when references are made to the interviews and the autopsy report which means edited for publication. We only see what the "powers to be" choose to release to the public. Anyone that thinks that autopsy report is complete is probably because they've never seen a "real" one which can be volumes of pages.

[bullmoose]

Lying on the floor with her hands tied above her head, maybe a 1-2 ft. above floor level. You can be lying on a bed with your hands tied above your head to the headboard. The same thing but in a basement.


I'm saying they were edited, along with the autopsy. Otherwise they would have been sealed with the rest of the testimonies.I've said it before, but I'll do it again:Shill, This makes good sense to me, it really does. And Athena, that quote of Karr makes it obvious why they wanted him back to Colorado where they could compel him to submit to DNA testing; he knew details that were not public knowledge.

[andU]

Shill, Ahtena, Bullmoose: Great posts! Great debate! Shill, I believe you are right on!

[Athena]

I'm not following here. Is the theory that she was hanging by her neck or by her hands?

Reading other posts - I realize there may be some confusion re: hanging.

When I say hung -- I don't mean hung by the neck but hung by the wrists and the deviation upward towards the back of the neck was because she was being strangled while her wrists were bound and tied to something above. I don't necessarily think she was tied to something very high - possibly even standing on a chair therefore the pressure of the cords around her wrists would not have been too great to have cut into them. JMO

[nuisanceposter]

I've said it before, but I'll do it again:Shill, This makes good sense to me, it really does. And Athena, that quote of Karr makes it obvious why they wanted him back to Colorado where they could compel him to submit to DNA testing; he knew details that were not public knowledge.

Thank you, Athena. :)

And Michael Tracey spent four years talking to Karr through emails - I'm not convinced that Tracey didn't somehow feed Karr information. Four years. How is that Karr knew some details but had others extremely wrong? We here on the JBR boards knew more details of the overall crime than Karr did. It seems to me he must have gotten some pertinent information from an inside source...like Michael Tracey.

There's no evidence written in the autopsy or on the pics I've seen of JonBenet's hands or in any interview or book coming from the Rs or any investigator to indicate that JonBenet's hands were up like they were because they were suspended. John Walsh wasn't even part of the investigation, so I don't know he'd be privy to top-secret info like "she was hanging" and I certainly don't think he'd let something like that slip on national television.

I think he made a mistake and some of us want to run with it and turn this into something we don't even know it was. You can't hear something that one person who wasn't even part of the investigation said once and turn it into fact and make the other facts we know about the scene, such as JR screaming and FW running, fit in with the thing one person said once.

Again, I'll ask - if her hands were hanging, and JR had to cut her down, what did he use to cut her down with and where did he get it from?

[aussiesheila]

WALSH: You know, we were asked to do that case a year afterward to try to help the Boulder police, you know, get a couple tips on it. But I think everybody knows that the case was compromised by bad police work in the beginning. I'm not the first one to say that and I'm a great supporter of law enforcement.

I mean, you are a detective and you go to a kidnapping of a high -- prominent family in a very wealthy area, and then, you know, police work 101, you clear the house and you clear the crime scene. She allowed the father and his friend to search the house. So he cuts down JonBenet, who is hanging down there. He compromised the crime scene, whether he had anything to do with it or he had nothing to do with it, he cut down his daughter in the crime scene with the DNA.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0203/04/lkl.00.htmlI have always thought that prior to her murder JonBenet was standing on a stool with her arms extended up over her head while she was being sexually abused, and her arms were held in that position by the cord between her wrists being attached to some point overhead.

People have always criticised my theory on this point because they say there was no evidence of abrasions to her wrists, but as Zoey has kindly pointed out, we haven't seen all of the autopsy report and for all we know the coroner MIGHT have seen faint marks around her wrists underneath the sleeves of her top.

I think it is interesting that in the autopsy photograph of the wrist ligature, although we are told the length of cord between the wrists is 15.5 inches, we have not actually seen that in-between length because it has been cropped out in the published photograph which I find a little strange. Might it have been cropped out because it showed a knot or some fraying at the centre point where it was attached to a point overhead near the ceiling?

The reason I think she was standing on a stool was because it raised her body to a level convenient for the abusers. I also found it highly significant all that kerfuffle about the stool blocking the entrance to the train room. John was questioned about it in at least 2 of his interviews. There were huge arguments raging about the stool blocking the doorway at Websleuths when I was posting there and the way people were discussing it they had missed the whole significance of the stool being iin that position IMO. Most people thought that it was another example of John lying.

When John was questioned he said the stool was blocking the doorway to the train room and it should not have been there so he moved it aside. I think it had been moved there from the boiler room, where it had been used to stand JonBenet on. I think FW moved it into that doorway when he went down to the basement immediately upon arriving at the house at around 6.15 am. I think he went down there to make sure the last traces of what had happened there the night before were concealed. When John came down later he saw the stool in the doorway, knew it was not meant to be there, and shifted it aside. I think FW might have moved it again when he came down to the basement again before the crime scene photographs were taken, because John seemed very confused looking at those photographs and seemed to be thinking that it wasn't the way things were laid out when he was down there.

So yes, I think Walsh does know something. I think they HAVE found evidence she was strung up with her arms overhead. However IMO Walsh is wrong in saying that John cut her down, I think the pedophiles cut her down and hid her in the cellar before departing the scene.

[DolphinSpirit]

I've been searching and in the short amount of time I've got right now....here is what I found...concerning a knife in the basement, as well as one outside of JonBenet's door. http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TH0EFPALFP9SD73D1
Is it possible she was tied up by her wrists to the bedposts of her bed. One curtain behind her bedpost did look to be in disarray in one of the photos. Over at Jameson's forum, someone named Mikie has discussed and shown pics of where it looks like her wrists may have some markings on them, even if not severe or obvious.
http://www.webbsleuths.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=2522&forum=DCForumID61

[andU]

I've asked this before and didn't get an answer: Does anyone have access to the list of people who had a key to the Ramsey house?

[Athena]

Thank you, Athena. :)

And Michael Tracey spent four years talking to Karr through emails - I'm not convinced that Tracey didn't somehow feed Karr information. Four years. How is that Karr knew some details but had others extremely wrong? We here on the JBR boards knew more details of the overall crime than Karr did. It seems to me he must have gotten some pertinent information from an inside source...like Michael Tracey.

There's no evidence written in the autopsy or on the pics I've seen of JonBenet's hands or in any interview or book coming from the Rs or any investigator to indicate that JonBenet's hands were up like they were because they were suspended. John Walsh wasn't even part of the investigation, so I don't know he'd be privy to top-secret info like "she was hanging" and I certainly don't think he'd let something like that slip on national television.

I think he made a mistake and some of us want to run with it and turn this into something we don't even know it was. You can't hear something that one person who wasn't even part of the investigation said once and turn it into fact and make the other facts we know about the scene, such as JR screaming and FW running, fit in with the thing one person said once.

Again, I'll ask - if her hands were hanging, and JR had to cut her down, what did he use to cut her down with and where did he get it from?

John Walsh was consulted early on in the case. I'll see if I can find the passage but I'm sure I read that which is why I thought he may know something we don't but he is the only one that has made that comment. But isn't it strange he would say that especially to use your words on "national television"? I thought maybe it just slipped out. Also in the autopsy report it does say there was an upward deviation of the cord -- what could have caused that IYO? Her arms were also above her head in rigor mortis which means she had to be like that for some time???

Wasn't there a knife with a broken handle found in the basement?

[Athena]

I have always thought that prior to her murder JonBenet was standing on a stool with her arms extended up over her head while she was being sexually abused, and her arms were held in that position by the cord between her wrists being attached to some point overhead.

People have always criticised my theory on this point because they say there was no evidence of abrasions to her wrists, but as Zoey has kindly pointed out, we haven't seen all of the autopsy report and for all we know the coroner MIGHT have seen faint marks around her wrists underneath the sleeves of her top.

I think it is interesting that in the autopsy photograph of the wrist ligature, although we are told the length of cord between the wrists is 15.5 inches, we have not actually seen that in-between length because it has been cropped out in the published photograph which I find a little strange. Might it have been cropped out because it showed a knot or some fraying at the centre point where it was attached to a point overhead near the ceiling?

The reason I think she was standing on a stool was because it raised her body to a level convenient for the abusers. I also found it highly significant all that kerfuffle about the stool blocking the entrance to the train room. John was questioned about it in at least 2 of his interviews. There were huge arguments raging about the stool blocking the doorway at Websleuths when I was posting there and the way people were discussing it they had missed the whole significance of the stool being iin that position IMO. Most people thought that it was another example of John lying.

When John was questioned he said the stool was blocking the doorway to the train room and it should not have been there so he moved it aside. I think it had been moved there from the boiler room, where it had been used to stand JonBenet on. I think FW moved it into that doorway when he went down to the basement immediately upon arriving at the house at around 6.15 am. I think he went down there to make sure the last traces of what had happened there the night before were concealed. When John came down later he saw the stool in the doorway, knew it was not meant to be there, and shifted it aside. I think FW might have moved it again when he came down to the basement again before the crime scene photographs were taken, because John seemed very confused looking at those photographs and seemed to be thinking that it wasn't the way things were laid out when he was down there.

So yes, I think Walsh does know something. I think they HAVE found evidence she was strung up with her arms overhead. However IMO Walsh is wrong in saying that John cut her down, I think the pedophiles cut her down and hid her in the cellar before departing the scene.

I also thought about her being placed on that chair which would have alleviated pressure around the wrists and also FW moving it. It still baffles me that FW moved a shard of glass found to the windowsill and the suitcase -- why not the chair? I'm convinced though that FW's depos have not been made public because there is information in them that noone else knows. JMO

[shill]

Red pocket knife w/broken ornament (41 KKY)

12/26/96 search warrent

[thewhitewitch1]

I also thought about her being placed on that chair which would have alleviated pressure around the wrists and also FW moving it. It still baffles me that FW moved a shard of glass found to the windowsill and the suitcase -- why not the chair? I'm convinced though that FW's depos have not been made public because there is information in them that noone else knows. JMO


JR also says in at least one of the interviews that he picked up a shard of glass and also moved the suitcase.
FW has (as far as we know) said nothing about the chair being in front of the door. I'd kind of like to know if he moved it also or if it was even there when he made his visit to the basement alone.
What could JB have been suspended from that would be low enough for her to be sitting(?) on with her arms over her head? Or do you think she was standing? If she had to be "cut down", as Walsh said, her body would have given evidence of it (lividity). Her blood would have pooled in her lower extremities.
Honestly, try as I may, I cannot for the life of me envision any intruder doing these "elaborate" things at his leisure while the family slept on. Even if the basement was so far away from the bedrooms, I just cannot imagine anyone feeling that comfortable and taking their sweet time doing these things to JB with absolutely no fear of being detected. All that would have had to have happened was for Patsy or John to get up in the middle of the night to check on the kids. Patsy could have gotten up to wake JB to use the bathroom, as was her habit. If this intruder knew so much about the family, surely they would have known that too.
JBs arms may have been over her head simply because that's how she was carried and put down...or maybe that is how the killer staged it to look.

[shill]

Even if the basement was so far away from the bedrooms, I just cannot imagine anyone feeling that comfortable and taking their sweet time doing these things to JB with absolutely no fear of being detected.
It's the fear of being detected that is exciting!
When I was younger I had a girlfriend who liked to do it with her parents in the other room, and it wasn't behind closed doors sometimes. At any time we could have been walked in on by her parents. It made me nervous but she got off on it. I've had affairs with women who find it exciting that they could get caught.
I think the excitement factor of doing it right under their noses was a big part of it.

He lays JB down on the white blanket and secures her hands to a pipe on the wall that leads into the boiler room. After he is done with her, he flips the edges of the blanket over her to hide her but her hands are sticking out.
Her hands are the first thing John sees.

[thewhitewitch1]

It's the fear of being detected that is exciting!
When I was younger I had a girlfriend who liked to do it with her parents in the other room, and it wasn't behind closed doors sometimes. At any time we could have been walked in on by her parents. It made me nervous but she got off on it. I've had affairs with women who find it exciting that they could get caught.
I think the excitement factor of doing it right under their noses was a big part of it.

He lays JB down on the white blanket and secures her hands to a pipe on the wall that leads into the boiler room. After he is done with her, he flips the edges of the blanket over her to hide her but her hands are sticking out.
Her hands are the first thing John sees.


The thrill of having sex and getting caught is a bit different than murder.
Why does this intruder even need the blanket? I thought the first thing JR saw was the blanket and that her feet were facing the door. Not sure about that, though.
Do you have proof that there even was a pipe to secure her to? Why would that even need to be done?
Is there evidence that the wrist ligatures were cut? We know there was a knife found (Burkes knife?). JR says he untied her wrist.
Why would this intruder have to tie her to anything? The only injury to her vagina was a jab with the paintbrush and that occured shortly before her death, so why the need to restrain her? She was not raped in the usual sense of the word.
I know some people "get off" on taking risks but the risk of getting caught for murder or pedophilia is to risk a life in prison or worse.
I just can't believe this intruder scenerio. Things don't add up.
Just for the record, it's hard for me to envision how and why the Ramseys did this too but to me, the evidence points straight at them. IMO

[shill]

IMO this is either a sex crime or a vengeance crime.

In the sex crime scenario, I believe the killing was premature. Had it not happen when it did we would have seen a different crime scene and possibly a kidnapping that would have led to more sex crimes before her death.

[Zoey]

IMO this is either a sex crime or a vengeance crime.

In the sex crime scenario, I believe the killing was premature. Had it not happen when it did we would have seen a different crime scene and possibly a kidnapping that would have led to more sex crimes before her death.


IMO, it didn't have anything to do with sex, it was all about vengeance.

[Sprocket]

IMO this is either a sex crime or a vengeance crime.

In the sex crime scenario, I believe the killing was premature. Had it not happen when it did we would have seen a different crime scene and possibly a kidnapping that would have led to more sex crimes before her death.

Can you reference any forensic expert (profiler or MD) that got to see the autopsy and crime scene photos and autopsy report who agrees with your theory? (Douglas doesn't count because.....dum-de-dum-dum....he did not see the case file.)

You know, experts who have seen this stuff in the field a gazillion times more than lay persons have?

[Athena]

Can you reference any forensic expert (profiler or MD) that got to see the autopsy and crime scene photos and autopsy report who agrees with your theory? (Douglas doesn't count because.....dum-de-dum-dum....he did not see the case file.)

You know, experts who have seen this stuff in the field a gazillion times more than lay persons have?

I haven't seen any motive proven by experts or not. JMO

[Sprocket]

I haven't seen any motive proven by experts or not. JMO

Why do you need motive? You don't always need motive to determine what happened. I agree that it's nice to know why; juries like to hear a motive but knowing a motive is not necessary to prove (or to speculate) how a particular event happened.

[aussiesheila]

Is it possible she was tied up by her wrists to the bedposts of her bed. One curtain behind her bedpost did look to be in disarray in one of the photos. Over at Jameson's forum, someone named Mikie has discussed and shown pics of where it looks like her wrists may have some markings on them, even if not severe or obvious.
http://www.webbsleuths.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=2522&forum=DCForumID61Thanks so much for this link DolphinSpirit. I have never seen that particular photo of her wrist before. My theory has always been that some pedophiles stood her on a chair with her hands outstretched above her head by the cord between the wrists being attached to some point overhead, that being the best position for them to perform their sexual acts on her. First I thought it was the doorjamb between the hallway and trainroom, but later I began thinking it was one of those overhead pipes in the boiler room. I think she was left hanging in that position for some time after they had killed her, maybe an hour, by which time rigor mortis had begun to set in, so that when she was cut down her arms remained fixed in that position above her head. I don't think it was John who cut her down (I think all his statements were the truth as he knew it), I think it was the pedophiles that had been abusing her, and they hid her body in the cellar, hoping it wouldn't be found and they could remove it later, when the coast was clear.

As soon as I ever posted stuff like this, people would immediately jump onto at me saying that if this had happened there would have been marks on her wrists and there were none. Well, you have just posted evidence that there were marks. Thank you.

There was a piece of wire found on the cellar floor, I think this is what was used to secure the wrist cord to the overhead pipe.

The centre part of the 15.5 inch length of cord between the wrist loops has been cropped out of the published autopsy photo. I think the original photo would have been of the wrist ligature in its entirety, and I think this part has been deliberately cropped out because they did not want the public to see it. I think the missing part would show a region of wear in the cord, or perhaps another knot where it was attached to the wire.

[aussiesheila]

I also thought about her being placed on that chair which would have alleviated pressure around the wrists and also FW moving it. It still baffles me that FW moved a shard of glass found to the windowsill and the suitcase -- why not the chair? I'm convinced though that FW's depos have not been made public because there is information in them that noone else knows. JMOYes, Athena, I think you are saying that because she was standing on the chair, her full body weight was not being taken by her wrists so that would have the effect of lessening any marks, right? I think so too. Also the fabric of the sleeve between the cord and her skin would have helped as well.

FW moving the shards of glass, yes, well I suppose you already know that I think he planned the whole kidnap coverup scenario after being phoned in the middle of the night by some panicked pedophile acquaintances of his. I think he already knew that CW had made a hurried escape from that window and left that mark on the wall and knocked some of the glass shards from the window sill onto the carpet. I think he figured that would just look like where the kidnapper entered so he just replaced the glass where he found it. Another thing I think he did was to move that chair/stool that the pedophiles had her standing on from the boiler room to the doorway of the trainroom door. I think he did this when he first arrived at the Ramsey house at about 6.15 am. Officer French had already looked through the basement 10 minutes earlier so the chair/stool would have still been in the boiler room, and he didn't pick up on the significance, not that you would expect him to since he was looking for evidence of kidnappers, not pedophiles. The chair/stool was then 'kind of blocking' the doorway when John came down later sometime between 8 and 10.

FW's depo would be a carefully crafted document, painstakingly composed with constant referencing back to the copious notes he was frantically writing on the 26th, to make sure the blend of truths and lies held together IMO.

It is my understanding that it was at FW's insistence that his depo and all of his statements have not been released. He wouldn't want any supersleuths scrutinising them, you never know what flaws they might find. The fewer people who know what his 'evidence' is the better is what he would be thinking, IMO.

[Athena]

Aussie,

Yes you are correct re: the chair. She was either sitting or standing. I also thought about overhead pipes as well. Were there any? I don't recall if I saw any in the photos. FW is definitely a strange character in this case and dang I wish his depo was released. Makes sense about what you said re: his note taking also. I remember how upset he got when he could not get a copy of his interviews for the grand jury. I would imagine it was because he wanted to refresh his memory about the lies he possibly told. I think people who believe she should have had strong marks on her wrists are because when they think of being suspended; they think of her being suspended above the floor not on a chair. JMO

[andU]

Great posts, Sheila... I agree with the majority of it. I would sure like to see the things that have not been available to us, especially FW depo.

[DolphinSpirit]

Thanks so much for this link DolphinSpirit. I have never seen that particular photo of her wrist before. My theory has always been that some pedophiles stood her on a chair with her hands outstretched above her head by the cord between the wrists being attached to some point overhead, that being the best position for them to perform their sexual acts on her. First I thought it was the doorjamb between the hallway and trainroom, but later I began thinking it was one of those overhead pipes in the boiler room. I think she was left hanging in that position for some time after they had killed her, maybe an hour, by which time rigor mortis had begun to set in, so that when she was cut down her arms remained fixed in that position above her head. I don't think it was John who cut her down (I think all his statements were the truth as he knew it), I think it was the pedophiles that had been abusing her, and they hid her body in the cellar, hoping it wouldn't be found and they could remove it later, when the coast was clear.

As soon as I ever posted stuff like this, people would immediately jump onto at me saying that if this had happened there would have been marks on her wrists and there were none. Well, you have just posted evidence that there were marks. Thank you.

There was a piece of wire found on the cellar floor, I think this is what was used to secure the wrist cord to the overhead pipe.

The centre part of the 15.5 inch length of cord between the wrist loops has been cropped out of the published autopsy photo. I think the original photo would have been of the wrist ligature in its entirety, and I think this part has been deliberately cropped out because they did not want the public to see it. I think the missing part would show a region of wear in the cord, or perhaps another knot where it was attached to the wire.

Your welcome aussiesheila. I really find it interesting. I wish we could see more of the photos. Not to be sick, but I would bet there is more to be told with the ones we haven't seen.

[thewhitewitch1]

Thanks so much for this link DolphinSpirit. I have never seen that particular photo of her wrist before. My theory has always been that some pedophiles stood her on a chair with her hands outstretched above her head by the cord between the wrists being attached to some point overhead, that being the best position for them to perform their sexual acts on her. First I thought it was the doorjamb between the hallway and trainroom, but later I began thinking it was one of those overhead pipes in the boiler room. I think she was left hanging in that position for some time after they had killed her, maybe an hour, by which time rigor mortis had begun to set in, so that when she was cut down her arms remained fixed in that position above her head. I don't think it was John who cut her down (I think all his statements were the truth as he knew it), I think it was the pedophiles that had been abusing her, and they hid her body in the cellar, hoping it wouldn't be found and they could remove it later, when the coast was clear.

As soon as I ever posted stuff like this, people would immediately jump onto at me saying that if this had happened there would have been marks on her wrists and there were none. Well, you have just posted evidence that there were marks. Thank you.

There was a piece of wire found on the cellar floor, I think this is what was used to secure the wrist cord to the overhead pipe.

The centre part of the 15.5 inch length of cord between the wrist loops has been cropped out of the published autopsy photo. I think the original photo would have been of the wrist ligature in its entirety, and I think this part has been deliberately cropped out because they did not want the public to see it. I think the missing part would show a region of wear in the cord, or perhaps another knot where it was attached to the wire.


She was wearing a bracelet when she was found. Better check to see which wrist she was wearing it on before jumping to conclusions that the marks seen on her wrist were from cords because she was "hanging". The marks shown in the photo look like links on a bracelet to me. IMO
The bracelet she was wearing was thick enough to have engraving on it.

[andU]

I think the bracelet was on the left hand, I'm still looking for the link with the photo... sorry.

[Athena]

She was wearing a bracelet when she was found. Better check to see which wrist she was wearing it on before jumping to conclusions that the marks seen on her wrist were from cords because she was "hanging". The marks shown in the photo look like links on a bracelet to me. IMO
The bracelet she was wearing was thick enough to have engraving on it.


I'm at work so no time to search - but I do believe you may be correct TWW. The bracelet was on the right wrist. I believe I recall that from the autopsy report.

[Louisadelmar]

. Around the right wrist is a yellow metal identification bracelet with the name "JonBenet" on one side and the date "12/25/96" on the other side. A red ink line drawing in the form of a heart is located on the palm of the left hand.

[DolphinSpirit]

The bracelet does make sense to have caused that mark. Thanks TWW....

[thewhitewitch1]

. Around the right wrist is a yellow metal identification bracelet with the name "JonBenet" on one side and the date "12/25/96" on the other side. A red ink line drawing in the form of a heart is located on the palm of the left hand.


Thanks, Louisa and Athena. I did a quick search this morning and couldn't find anything with the limited time I had.

[andU]

The one photo I kept coming up with was that artist sketch, which shows a bracelet on both wrists. I didn't want to link to that because I wasn't sure how true it was and since I was at work, I couldn't spend too much time searching.

[aussiesheila]

Aussie,

Yes you are correct re: the chair. She was either sitting or standing. I also thought about overhead pipes as well. Were there any? I don't recall if I saw any in the photos. FW is definitely a strange character in this case and dang I wish his depo was released. Makes sense about what you said re: his note taking also. I remember how upset he got when he could not get a copy of his interviews for the grand jury. I would imagine it was because he wanted to refresh his memory about the lies he possibly told. I think people who believe she should have had strong marks on her wrists are because when they think of being suspended; they think of her being suspended above the floor not on a chair. JMOYes there are overhead pipes, and there are photos of the rooms of the house out there somewhere and you can see the pipes clearly in the photos of the basement. Agree with all you say about FW. Yes, if all her bodyweight was taken on her legs while standing on the chair/stool (she had to be standing IMO) the wrists would not have taken any weight except when she was stungunned (which I believe she was, at least twice) and then I think all muscles go into spasms and the legs give way underneath. Then of course, if this is the way it was, then after she was killed I think she must have hung there long enough for her shoulder muscles to go into at least partial rigor.

[aussiesheila]

She was wearing a bracelet when she was found. Better check to see which wrist she was wearing it on before jumping to conclusions that the marks seen on her wrist were from cords because she was "hanging". The marks shown in the photo look like links on a bracelet to me. IMO
The bracelet she was wearing was thick enough to have engraving on it.So maybe she only has a mark on her right wrist and it was made by the bracelet around her right wrist as it was forced against her hand while she was in the hanging position.

[thewhitewitch1]

Yes there are overhead pipes, and there are photos of the rooms of the house out there somewhere and you can see the pipes clearly in the photos of the basement. Agree with all you say about FW. Yes, if all her bodyweight was taken on her legs while standing on the chair/stool (she had to be standing IMO) the wrists would not have taken any weight except when she was stungunned (which I believe she was, at least twice) and then I think all muscles go into spasms and the legs give way underneath. Then of course, if this is the way it was, then after she was killed I think she must have hung there long enough for her shoulder muscles to go into at least partial rigor.


The pipes seen in the photos are in the "boiler room", not in the wine cellar, if I am not mistaken.

[thewhitewitch1]

So maybe she only has a mark on her right wrist and it was made by the bracelet around her right wrist as it was forced against her hand while she was in the hanging position.

I can't help it. This calls for another "Help me, Jesus!" You will believe anything to make it fit into your theory. IMO

[Zoey]

The one photo I kept coming up with was that artist sketch, which shows a bracelet on both wrists. I didn't want to link to that because I wasn't sure how true it was and since I was at work, I couldn't spend too much time searching.

I believe this is the one you are referring to.

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetbody1.jpg

[andU]

I believe this is the one you are referring to.

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetbody1.jpg


Yeah, that's the one and as I stated because it is a sketch, I don't know how true it is. I have never seen any photos that showed below her neck, I don't think. I'm going to look again to see who sketched this one and from what original photo it was taken.

Ok, I see, it was created not from a photo, but from the coroner's report. I just didn't want to rely on its being accurate and I'm still not sure that it is.

[AmyW]

The killer would have had to wait two hours before killing her because of the pinapple evidence. She died face down because of the urine stain evidence. A shroud involves the folding of the hands/arms to the chest. This couldn't be done because she was in rigor. Rigor occurs at least 4 hours after death, so the shroud was done at least four hours after death. There were no claw marks on Jonbenets' neck. She was already unconscious. It wasn't a slip knot on her neck, it was a double knot. It wasn't shoe laces around her neck.

***I'm slowly trudging my way through these posts so bear with me as I state my opinion as I find the posts I feel the need to respond to!***

The usual way we determine whether a body has been disturbed after death is to look at whether the signs of death are in their natural position. That is, when we die, the body goes immediately into a gravitational position -- a position determined by gravity -- such as a standing body will fall to the ground, for example. The whole body collapses as a result of gravity and then, over a period of an hour or two, rigor mortis starts to become noticeable and the muscles and the arms and extremities start getting stiff. At the same time, after death, the red blood cells in all the blood vessels of the body start settling down to the lowest point, much as red cells settle in a plastic bag when one gives blood at the blood bank.

http://www.hbo.com/autopsy/baden/qa_8.html

***Just wanted to state that Rigor doesn't take 4 hours to set in.***

Rigor mortis can be used to help estimate time of death. The onset of rigor mortis may range from 10 minutes to several hours, depending on factors including temperature (rapid cooling of a body can inhibit rigor mortis, but it occurs upon thawing). Maximum stiffness is reached around 12-24 hours post mortem. Facial muscles are affected first, with the rigor then spreading to other parts of the body. The joints are stiff for 1-3 days, but after this time general tissue decay and leaking of lysosomal intracellular digestive enzymes will cause the muscles to relax. It is interesting to note that meat is generally considered to be more tender if it is eaten after rigor mortis has passed.



http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm

[AmyW]

An interesting analysis of the ransom note:

http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/


***Still reading posts!***

[aussiesheila]

The pipes seen in the photos are in the "boiler room", not in the wine cellar, if I am not mistaken.Yes, that is what I saw in the photo, pipes running under the ceiling of the boiler room in the basement. That is the room I think they abused her in. That is the room that had the open vent in facing the street through which, if you believe in that scream, the sound of it was supposed to have travelled through to Melody Stanton's window directly across the street. It wasn't until after the murder that I think her body was cut down and hidden in the wine cellar.

[aussiesheila]

I can't help it. This calls for another "Help me, Jesus!" You will believe anything to make it fit into your theory. IMOWell I hope He does help you whitewitch. Hey maybe you'd better change your name first before you ask.

[thewhitewitch1]

Yes, that is what I saw in the photo, pipes running under the ceiling of the boiler room in the basement. That is the room I think they abused her in. That is the room that had the open vent in facing the street through which, if you believe in that scream, the sound of it was supposed to have travelled through to Melody Stanton's window directly across the street. It wasn't until after the murder that I think her body was cut down and hidden in the wine cellar.


Why did her body have to be "cut down and hidden"? It wasn't hidden. It was right behind that door.
Your pedos are awfully gutsy to be doing all of this while the family was nearby and could have walked in at any moment.

[thewhitewitch1]

Well I hope He does help you whitewitch. Hey maybe you'd better change your name first before you ask.


Owwie. Was that supposed to be an insult? :lol:
He helps me every day, Thank you very much. :)
If you think my screen name implies anything about my personal life, then you are ASSuming too much.

[Zoey]

Why did her body have to be "cut down and hidden"? It wasn't hidden. It was right behind that door.
Your pedos are awfully gutsy to be doing all of this while the family was nearby and could have walked in at any moment.


Apparently it was well hidden. FW couldn't see it when he opened the door to the wine cellar. IMO.

[thewhitewitch1]

Apparently it was well hidden. FW couldn't see it when he opened the door to the wine cellar. IMO.


Well, that's because it was dark in that room and he didn't know where the light switch was. JR had no problem seeing her (even without the light). IMO

[Athena]

Well, that's because it was dark in that room and he didn't know where the light switch was. JR had no problem seeing her (even without the light). IMO


JR turned the light on first before he saw JBR and it was very dark in the morning when FW went down there at 6:15am.

[Zoey]

Well, that's because it was dark in that room and he didn't know where the light switch was. JR had no problem seeing her (even without the light). IMO


FW had been in that room before. IMO, he knew exactly where the light switch was.

I thought JR said he turned the lights on?

Thanks Athena...you just answered my questions!

[thewhitewitch1]

JR turned the light on first before he saw JBR and it was very dark in the morning when FW went down there at 6:15am.

Well, Athena...whether JR turned on the light before or after he saw her depends on which interview with him that you read.
It is one of his stories that seems to change.

[Athena]

Well, Athena...whether JR turned on the light before or after he saw her depends on which interview with him that you read.
It is one of his stories that seems to change.

It's in FW's depo TWW and I've posted it on numerous occasions. Again when you say he changes his story he doesn't recall. We just go round and round on what people who have just experienced trauma actually do recall.

But for the 100th time, here it is again and it also should clear up the fact that JR did not immediately go to the wine cellar as I have seen posted on several occasions:

Mr. White also opened the door to the wine cellar room, but he could not see anything inside because it was dark and he could not find the light switch. ( SMF 29 ; PSMF 29; White Dep. at 159-61.)

The men next searched a shower stall located in the basement. {SMF 34; PSMF 34.} Mr. Ramsey then noticed a heavy fireplace grate propped in front of a closet and Mr. White moved the grate so the closet could be searched. (SMF 35: PSMF 35.) Upon finding nothing unusual in the closet, the men proceeded to the wine cellar room. Mr. Ramsey entered the room first, turned on the light and, upon discovery of JonBenet's dead body, he exclaimed "Oh my God, my baby." (SMF 36, 37: PSMF 36, 37; White Dep. at 162-63, 193-93.)

[Miss Marple]

But for the 100th time, here it is again and it also should clear up the fact that JR did not immediately go to the wine cellar as I have seen posted on several occasions:



Thank you: this myth that John went "immediately" to the location of the body is akin to another widespread myth I've seen posted on discussion boards everywhere--that the $118,000 in the RN was the "exact" amount of John's salary bonus. Both factoids sound suspicious to the uninitiated until one realizes both are erroneous! John's actual bonus was $118,117.50. http://tinyurl.com/ynpsbx
Had that amount appeared in the RN, we could be far more certain that the requested ransom amount actually alluded to that very same figure. As it stands, the figure might well have had some completely different symbolic significance to the perp (or even none at all). Like so many aspects of the case, this bit of evidence is ambivalent. It MIGHT point to an individual with "insider" knowledge about John's bonus or it might have no connection whatsoever.

By conveniently flipping all such ambiguous evidence in the direction of one's favorite perp, it's pretty easy to make nearly any suspect appear to fit the evidence far better than is actually warranted.
Best wishes,
Miss Marple

[Athena]

Hi ya Miss Marple. Good to "see" you. :seeya:

Sneakin' in from work so can't stay long.

[Miss Marple]

Hi ya Miss Marple. Good to "see" you. :seeya:

Sneakin' in from work so can't stay long.

Ditto. The wiki's been sadly neglected for weeks due to all my work. Back to the grindstone: :read:
Best wishes,
Miss Marple

[thewhitewitch1]

I still think that JR didn't turn on the light until after he saw the blanket.

1997 depo:

ST: And did you open the door?

JR: Yeah.

ST: And did you open the door?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: And was the light on or off?

ST: I think it was off.

ST: And did you turn the light on?

JR: Probably, I don’t remember specifically turning it on, but probably would have, it’s a dark room.

ST: From the time you opened the door of the cellar room, when did you discovered your daughter, was this a fraction of a second or a matter of seconds, give me an idea.

JR: Instant. I mean, as soon as I opened the door I saw the white blanket. And I knew, I just saw a blanket, and I knew that was our, you know.

ST: and was it then you instantaneously opened the door, saw the blanket, you may or may not have turned the light on?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: You don’t know? In all fairness.

JR: In fact, I don’t remember.

How would FW know if JR saw the blanket or not before he turned on the light? He isn't a mind reader. The room was dark, no matter what time of day it was and the basement lights were on in the morning. So why did JR "immediately" see the blanket but FW didn't?
Of course JR "doesn't remember". It is just so amazing what he chooses to remember and what he doesn't. Funny how he says he "instantly" saw the blanket as soon as he opened the door and then when pressed further about the lights, he "doesn't remember". If the light switch was inside the room, he could not have turned on the light as soon as he opened the door, and yet he clearly says he saw the blanket instantly, as soon as he opened the door.

[AmyW]

Knowing his own house, and knowing the basement is dark, wouldn't it be common sense to turn on the light so he could search properly? :shrug:

[Athena]

TWW: It is a known fact that people do not recall a sequence of events accurately during and after a traumatic incident. You call JR a liar and I will stick to my beliefs that he truly does not recall. What he does recall is seeing the white blanket and realizing it was his daughter. I will guarantee that several people can witness an accident and you will get conflicting stories. Not because they are lying because it is as they recollect the events to be and attempting to fill in what they actually do not remember.

FW's depo clearly states that JR turned the lights on before entering the wine cellar and that is a court document and I see no reason why FW would lie about that even if JR doesn't remember.

As far as FW not seeing it and JR seeing it - they are referencing two different times. FW is talking about the wine cellar not having any light at all at 6AM in the morning and JR finding the body at 1:00PM. The wine cellar is a separate room within the basement. I have a basement with several rooms and if I turn on the main light in the basement I still can't see into my other rooms because of the location of the light especially when it is also dark outside.

[Miss Marple]

Knowing his own house, and knowing the basement is dark, wouldn't it be common sense to turn on the light so he could search properly? :shrug:

The lights were on in the basement, just not in the wine-cellar room in which the body was found; the light switch was inside that room, so John would have had to step into room and reach to turn it on. But because of the lighting at that time of day, he was able to see the white blanket against the dark floor. Not every finds this a satisfactory account, but here's the best scientific explanation I've seen for how this could have happened: http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The-Basement?doneSave=1#WhyFleetDidNotSeeBodyinEarlyMo rning
Best wishes,
Miss Marple

[Athena]

The lights were on in the basement, just not in the wine-cellar room in which the body was found; the light switch was inside that room, so John would have had to step into room and reach to turn it on. But because of the lighting at that time of day, he was able to see the white blanket against the dark floor. Not every finds this a satisfactory account, but here's the best scientific explanation I've seen for how this could have happened: http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The-Basement?doneSave=1#WhyFleetDidNotSeeBodyinEarlyMo rning
Best wishes,
Miss Marple

That explanation makes alot of sense and actually forgot that I have read that many times before; but FW does say JR turned the lights on first.

[AmyW]

The lights were on in the basement, just not in the wine-cellar room in which the body was found; the light switch was inside that room, so John would have had to step into room and reach to turn it on. But because of the lighting at that time of day, he was able to see the white blanket against the dark floor. Not every finds this a satisfactory account, but here's the best scientific explanation I've seen for how this could have happened: http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The-Basement?doneSave=1#WhyFleetDidNotSeeBodyinEarlyMo rning
Best wishes,
Miss Marple

Thanks for addressing my question and for the link. I will definately check it out. :)

[shill]

Turning a light on and off in a room is not something you think about, it's a reflex action that you do and it doesn't render a memory in your conscious mind.

How many people leave a house and wonder if they left a light on or not, or the stove on, or food for the dog and have to stop and check because they don't remember minutes after the fact?
And those are stress free situations.

[Sharon]

Turning a light on and off in a room is not something you think about, it's a reflex action that you do and it doesn't render a memory in your conscious mind.

How many people leave a house and wonder if they left a light on or not, or the stove on, or food for the dog and have to stop and check because they don't remember minutes after the fact?
And those are stress free situations.

Thanks Shill, sometimes I feel Im arguing too much and I am getting worn sown. What you just wrote gives me strength. Surely stuff like this does not have to be nutted out, surely this makes sence to everyone???

A simple experiment is to ask your partner what you both ate for dinner last night, what time, who put away the dishes, what time you each went to bed etc. You would be surprised at how poor our memory is at the best of times.

Thats why that puzzle where you look at a picture then you look at the same but with some things missing is hard to do!!!! We really arent wired to take in the little things. Even when we read we dont look at the whole word!

Little things like missing appointments, getting arrangements wrong, forgetting someones birthday, forgetting to take with you what you have just bought at a shop....does this make you a liar????

Please lets put into proper perpective what a normal mind can remember, and its not something as automatic as turning on a light switch.

Im not saying they didnt ever lie and whether the R. did lie is another issue, but not because they cant recall really mundaine stuff. imo
jmo

[AmyW]

Good points, Sharon.

[bullmoose]

Thanks Shill, sometimes I feel Im arguing too much and I am getting worn sown. What you just wrote gives me strength. Surely stuff like this does not have to be nutted out, surely this makes sence to everyone???

A simple experiment is to ask your partner what you both ate for dinner last night, what time, who put away the dishes, what time you each went to bed etc. You would be surprised at how poor our memory is at the best of times.

Thats why that puzzle where you look at a picture then you look at the same but with some things missing is hard to do!!!! We really arent wired to take in the little things. Even when we read we dont look at the whole word!

Little things like missing appointments, getting arrangements wrong, forgetting someones birthday, forgetting to take with you what you have just bought at a shop....does this make you a liar????

Please lets put into proper perpective what a normal mind can remember, and its not something as automatic as turning on a light switch.

Im not saying they didnt ever lie and whether the R. did lie is another issue, but not because they cant recall really mundaine stuff. imo
jmoI read a book a while back by a researcher at the U of Washington, her specialty is memory and how it gets stored in the brain; her point in the book was that memories are not stored in any one place in the brain, they are stored all over the brain. Memories are quite often garbled and in many cases simply cannot be trusted, because the brain tends to rearrange memories. Unless you have a written down account of events to keep you honest,your recollections of events, even traumatic ones, tend to change in various details over time. Whenever something happens to me that is what I consider to be important to recall accurately, I go write the whole incident down for any future questioning. Partly it is because of my experience with cops, if you vary in the sixteenth recounting of events, they call you a liar; but you can take notes just like they do and can use them. IMO

[Zoey]

I read a book a while back by a researcher at the U of Washington, her specialty is memory and how it gets stored in the brain; her point in the book was that memories are not stored in any one place in the brain, they are stored all over the brain. Memories are quite often garbled and in many cases simply cannot be trusted, because the brain tends to rearrange memories. Unless you have a written down account of events to keep you honest,your recollections of events, even traumatic ones, tend to change in various details over time. Whenever something happens to me that is what I consider to be important to recall accurately, I go write the whole incident down for any future questioning. Partly it is because of my experience with cops, if you vary in the sixteenth recounting of events, they call you a liar; but you can take notes just like they do and can use them. IMO


IMO, a traumatic situation would most definately make your memories very garbled. I know when my dad passed away, the stories that my mom and brothers were telling about how he died just didn't click with me, even though I was in the same room they were when he died.

[Sharon]

IMO, a traumatic situation would most definately make your memories very garbled. I know when my dad passed away, the stories that my mom and brothers were telling about how he died just didn't click with me, even though I was in the same room they were when he died.

Sorry to hear about your loss, and thanks for sharing your experience with a personal tragedy, the passing away of your dad.:rose:

[Jayelles]

I read a book a while back by a researcher at the U of Washington, her specialty is memory and how it gets stored in the brain; her point in the book was that memories are not stored in any one place in the brain, they are stored all over the brain. Memories are quite often garbled and in many cases simply cannot be trusted, because the brain tends to rearrange memories. Unless you have a written down account of events to keep you honest,your recollections of events, even traumatic ones, tend to change in various details over time. Whenever something happens to me that is what I consider to be important to recall accurately, I go write the whole incident down for any future questioning. Partly it is because of my experience with cops, if you vary in the sixteenth recounting of events, they call you a liar; but you can take notes just like they do and can use them. IMO

Just like Fleet White did?

[Zoey]

Sorry to hear about your loss, and thanks for sharing your experience with a personal tragedy, the passing away of your dad.:rose:


Thank you.

[thewhitewitch1]

TWW: It is a known fact that people do not recall a sequence of events accurately during and after a traumatic incident. You call JR a liar and I will stick to my beliefs that he truly does not recall. What he does recall is seeing the white blanket and realizing it was his daughter. I will guarantee that several people can witness an accident and you will get conflicting stories. Not because they are lying because it is as they recollect the events to be and attempting to fill in what they actually do not remember.

FW's depo clearly states that JR turned the lights on before entering the wine cellar and that is a court document and I see no reason why FW would lie about that even if JR doesn't remember.

As far as FW not seeing it and JR seeing it - they are referencing two different times. FW is talking about the wine cellar not having any light at all at 6AM in the morning and JR finding the body at 1:00PM. The wine cellar is a separate room within the basement. I have a basement with several rooms and if I turn on the main light in the basement I still can't see into my other rooms because of the location of the light especially when it is also dark outside.

Athena, JR could not have turned on the light before entering the wine cellar because the light switch was IN the wine cellar. I believe he had to actually walk into the room to get to it. He did clearly state that he saw the blanket as soon as he opened the door, which, of course would mean that he saw it before he turned on the light.
So again, why didn't FW also see the blanket when he opened the wine cellar door? I think you were agreeing that the time of day made no difference in the lighting of that room since it had no windows and was in a hallway.

[thewhitewitch1]

That explanation makes alot of sense and actually forgot that I have read that many times before; but FW does say JR turned the lights on first.

Maybe FW was also confused. I'm sure he was stressed as well. IMO

[thewhitewitch1]

The lights were on in the basement, just not in the wine-cellar room in which the body was found; the light switch was inside that room, so John would have had to step into room and reach to turn it on. But because of the lighting at that time of day, he was able to see the white blanket against the dark floor. Not every finds this a satisfactory account, but here's the best scientific explanation I've seen for how this could have happened: http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The-Basement?doneSave=1#WhyFleetDidNotSeeBodyinEarlyMo rning
Best wishes,
Miss Marple

Sorry for the multiple posts but you are right. I do not find that satisfactory but IDIs will, of course. IMO

[bullmoose]

Sorry for the multiple posts but you are right. I do not find that satisfactory but IDIs will, of course. IMO
Yup, we most assuredly do. JMHO:biggrin:

[aussiesheila]

Why did her body have to be "cut down and hidden"? It wasn't hidden. It was right behind that door.
Your pedos are awfully gutsy to be doing all of this while the family was nearby and could have walked in at any moment.I'm not sure we are on the same wavelength here whitewitch. I am suggesting JonBenet was abused in the bolier room while standing on a chair with her arms extended up over her head because the cord between the loops around her wrists was hooked up to a point on some pipes running below the ceiling. While there the body was not hidden because anyone could see into that room from the hallway. I am suggesting that it was after her death that they cut down her body and hid it in the cellar that opened off the boiler room and hoped no-one would look in there.

Yes, the pedos were gutsy. Mind you they didn't have a lot to fear from Patsy IMO, because I think Santa could have rushed out and stopped her from coming in the room if he'd heard her coming. John was another matter, and yes if what I theorise is correct, they were relying on him sleeping soundly right through the night three floors above as apparently he normally did, or Patsy reassuring him that any sound that might have woken him was just a squirrel or something. They were taking a big risk. But that isn't all that unusual for criminals is it? I think they got frightened after the hideous scream, though. I think one of them got so frightened he ran to the trainroom, grabbed a suitcase, put it in front of the window and made a hasty exit right then and there. I think one left through the kitchen door, one carrying the stungun I think was his, and the baseball bat I think he had hit her over the head with. So in my proposed scenario there was only FW's relative from Ca and Santa left, I think the former left soon after to get FW's help and I think Santa stayed to do the coverup, because he would have been the first to be picked up if there hadn't been one.

Oh, I've just re-read your post, and I think you mean the body wasn't hidden when it was on the floor of the cellar room. I never said it was well hidden, I just said it was hidden, as in hidden as best they could manage at the time. I actually think FW had told them there was a cavity in the floor of the cellar room covered by a piece of sheet metal and a mat. I think he suggested they try to get the body in there. I think the sound of scraping metal heard by Mr Stanton sometime after the scream was Santa and Ca Man moving it to get to the cavity. I think that unfortunately for them it was too small for the body and they just has to leave the body on the floor. Still, as a hiding place it wasn't bad, the only three people to have gone down to the basement - Officer French, FW and John didn't find the body on their first trip down there, and FW even looked right into the cellar room itself !!!!

[aussiesheila]

That explanation makes alot of sense and actually forgot that I have read that many times before; but FW does say JR turned the lights on first.I'm quoting the lovely Mandy Rice-Davies here "Well 'e would wouldn't 'e".

No relevance at all to this case

But I couldn't resist slipping it in.

[Athena]

I'm quoting the lovely Mandy Rice-Davies here "Well 'e would wouldn't 'e".

No relevance at all to this case

But I couldn't resist slipping it in.

LMAO. Gosh I can't remember exactly where I have read this, but wasn't that some guy who denied having an affair and that's when she said "Well 'e would wouldn't 'e"?

[aussiesheila]

Sorry for the multiple posts but you are right. I do not find that satisfactory but IDIs will, of course. IMOI think it is irrelevant what order John turned on the light, saw the blanket, walked into the room. IMO he did all in rapid succession and it doesn't matter, it is of no consequence, it could have been any order, although if he had to step into the room in order to reach the light switch then I suppose the step had to come before the switching on.

The only thing I find interesting is FW saying he did not see the body when he first looked into the room. I think he was lying. I think he DID see the body. I think in fact, he was checking to see that it had been put there as he had instructed.

I know some RDIs think that it wasn't there when FW first looked and that John shifted it there later, but until an RDI such as this posts their theory we can't really discuss the likelihood of this.

[Eagle1]

I too suspect FW lied about not seeing the body, but why is another question. Was it to implicate JR, throw him under the bus, so to speak, and distance himself? Not saying he ran the whole thing, don't know.

Maybe someone can think of other possible reasons.

[thewhitewitch1]

I too suspect FW lied about not seeing the body, but why is another question. Was it to implicate JR, throw him under the bus, so to speak, and distance himself? Not saying he ran the whole thing, don't know.

Maybe someone can think of other possible reasons.


How about because he just couldn't/didn't see it?
It certainly IS relevant when JR turned on the light. He claims that as soon as he opened the door he saw the white blanket and "knew it was her" and then he turned on the light. He had to step inside the room to get to the light switch.
Since there were no windows in the wine celler or in the hall, the lighting would not have changed because of the time of day each looked in the room.
Personally, I think FW simply did not see the blanket or JB and neither did JR. JR already knew she was there because he was involved in her death. IMO

[Zoey]

How about because he just couldn't/didn't see it?
It certainly IS relevant when JR turned on the light. He claims that as soon as he opened the door he saw the white blanket and "knew it was her" and then he turned on the light. He had to step inside the room to get to the light switch.
Since there were no windows in the wine celler or in the hall, the lighting would not have changed because of the time of day each looked in the room.
Personally, I think FW simply did not see the blanket or JB and neither did JR. JR already knew she was there because he was involved in her death. IMO


I don't agree. I think the time of day would have made a difference in how much light came through the window in the boiler room and the other room and how much it would have lightened up the basement. IMO.

JR seeing the white blanket on the floor does not in any way show that he was involved in JB's murder. All it shows is he saw a white blanket in a room that he knew should not have had a white blanket in it. IMO.

[Athena]

I don't agree. I think the time of day would have made a difference in how much light came through the window in the boiler room and the other room and how much it would have lightened up the basement. IMO.

JR seeing the white blanket on the floor does not in any way show that he was involved in JB's murder. All it shows is he saw a white blanket in a room that he knew should not have had a white blanket in it. IMO.

JR turned on the light per FW's depo. What is interesting is that FW claims he could not find the light switch but LHP who had gone down there to retrieve Christmas trees who was not familiar with the room easily found the light switch on the right side wall as soon as she stepped into the room.

[Zoey]

JR turned on the light per FW's depo. What is interesting is that FW claims he could not find the light switch but LHP who had gone down there to retrieve Christmas trees who was not familiar with the room easily found the light switch on the right side wall as soon as she stepped into the room.


It is interesting that FW could not find the light switch on this occasion, but when sent to that very room on previous occasions as per Patsy's testimony, he had no problem finding the switch. IMO.

[thewhitewitch1]

It is interesting that FW could not find the light switch on this occasion, but when sent to that very room on previous occasions as per Patsy's testimony, he had no problem finding the switch. IMO.


"As per Patsys testimony"...what a joke. We have only her word on this and she and JR were already trying to implicate the Whites.
FW may have stated in his depo that JR turned on the light before he saw JB but unless he is a mind reader, how would he know if JR saw the blanket as soon as he opened the door? JR stated himself that he saw the blanket as soon as he opened the door".
I don't think the light coming in from the boiler room or any room would have made a difference as to the lighting in the wine cellar. The windows were nowhere near close enough to that room to make any difference. IMO

[Zoey]

"As per Patsys testimony"...what a joke. We have only her word on this and she and JR were already trying to implicate the Whites.
FW may have stated in his depo that JR turned on the light before he saw JB but unless he is a mind reader, how would he know if JR saw the blanket as soon as he opened the door? JR stated himself that he saw the blanket as soon as he opened the door".
I don't think the light coming in from the boiler room or any room would have made a difference as to the lighting in the wine cellar. The windows were nowhere near close enough to that room to make any difference. IMO


Patsy Ramey's testimony.....joke. FW testimony...perhaps mistaken. Just how exactly does that always work??

[Athena]

I recall reading in PMPT that a couple of reporters had done an experimental search through the house to determine what could be possible. The reporters said contrary to reports they had read, the wine cellar was not hard to find, that it was possible to see a white blanket in the room without a light during hours that there was sunlight but would be difficult to see without the natural light. I believe Diane Sawyer also toured the basement but I do not believe she was the one to make these statements. I am getting ready for work but when I get home later tonight I will try to find the names and pages.

[Jayelles]

I recall reading in PMPT that a couple of reporters had done an experimental search through the house to determine what could be possible. The reporters said contrary to reports they had read, the wine cellar was not hard to find, that it was possible to see a white blanket in the room without a light during hours that there was sunlight but would be difficult to see without the natural light. I believe Diane Sawyer also toured the basement but I do not believe she was the one to make these statements. I am getting ready for work but when I get home later tonight I will try to find the names and pages.

The corridors certainly didn't look too complicated from the maps and videos that I've seen but there seemed to be a lot of doors along the basement corridor - I guess some would be rooms and some might be cupboards.