Too much reasonable doubt

[LindaA]

See Shill's post just above yours.

[Tober]

Tober,
It wasn't a murder crime scene when all those people came over (including FW).
Actually, it was because JonBenet was already deceased at that point.

[Coloradokares]

Pretty amazing the BPD didn't immediately seal the basement off, let alone let FW go down there and rearrange the crime scene.
And what was FW thinking, going down there instead of staying with the Ramseys for emotional support.
The Ramseys and the Whites new each other less then 3 years. How well can you know someone in that time, or trust them?
IMO FW went on a defensive attack.

Most couples get engaged married and have a baby on the way in that amount of time... Not necessarily that they should, but do. .

[nuisanceposter]

The entire house was a crime scene even before JonBenet's body was found because supposedly a kidnapping took place there. And since it took place in the house, the whole house is the crime scene.

Let's not forget John Ramsey and all he did to compromise and contaminate the basement. Closing a window only he saw open, tampering with evidence on the body by pulling at the cord on the wrists, tearing the tape off her face, and the thing that really destroyed the crux of the crime scene beyond repair, picking up JonBenet's body and carrying her upstairs.

[Coloradokares]

Tober,
It wasn't a murder crime scene when all those people came over (including FW).
When JB was discovered, that area became one of the most important areas to protect. FW slipped away from everyone and went down there to poke around alone.
He should have been arrested for tampering with evidence.

If I am not mistaken John had been down there alone as well. Should the same apply? What should not have taken place was anyone being allowed to move out of the vision of the officers on the scene. They should have secured that crime scene. Kidnapping or murder....

[Louisadelmar]

Yes. I never understood why BPD considered her bedroom a crime scene but not the house through which the kidnapper had to pass to get to the bedroom. Perhaps Eller should have spent less time making fun of the FBI manual and more time reading it.

[shill]

Most couples get engaged married and have a baby on the way in that amount of time... Not necessarily that they should, but do. .

That's why there are so many divorces.

[shill]

If I am not mistaken John had been down there alone as well. Should the same apply? What should not have taken place was anyone being allowed to move out of the vision of the officers on the scene. They should have secured that crime scene. Kidnapping or murder....

Really? John went back down there alone after he found JB's body? You need a link for that one.

[shill]

The entire house was a crime scene even before JonBenet's body was found because supposedly a kidnapping took place there. And since it took place in the house, the whole house is the crime scene.

Let's not forget John Ramsey and all he did to compromise and contaminate the basement. Closing a window only he saw open, tampering with evidence on the body by pulling at the cord on the wrists, tearing the tape off her face, and the thing that really destroyed the crux of the crime scene beyond repair, picking up JonBenet's body and carrying her upstairs.
So FW didn't see the open window? And you agree the wrist cuffs were loosened? And it doesn't appear she was killed in the wine cellar and the positioning of her body didn't change because of the rigor mortis, only the location. And Fleet White was a witness to what John was doing.
Maybe FW was just trying to be a good friend by going back down there and compromising the crime scene further.

[shill]

Actually, it was because JonBenet was already deceased at that point.

No it wasn't.

[andU]

That's why there are so many divorces.

Amen.... and that isn't the type of relationship we are speaking of with the Whites and the Ramseys .... it would be interesting to know how often they spent time getting acquainted, not just socializing...

[sweetcharlotte]

<snip>

Maybe FW was just trying to be a good friend by going back down there and compromising the crime scene further.

You think?

[aussiesheila]

http://www.dna.gov/audiences/victim/know/interpreting

Interpreting DNA Test ResultsThree types of results can occur in DNA testing: inclusion, exclusion, and inconclusive. It is important that victim service providers understand the meaning of these terms and be able to explain their implications.

Inclusion. When the DNA profile of a victim or suspect is consistent with the DNA profile from the crime scene evidence, the individual is "included" as the possible source of that evidence. However, the strength of inclusion depends upon the number of loci (locations on the DNA strand) examined and how common or rare the resulting DNA profile is in the general population.

Exclusion. When the DNA profile from a victim or suspect is inconsistent with the DNA profile generated from the crime scene evidence, the individual is "excluded" as the donor of the evidence. However, exclusion does not imply innocence. In a rape case, for example, a perpetrator wearing a condom could be excluded as a suspect because no semen was found at the crime scene, but evidence found elsewhere at the crime scene may include that same person as a suspect.

Inconclusive. Inconclusive results indicate that DNA testing could neither include nor exclude an individual as the source of biological evidence. Inconclusive results can occur for many reasons: for example, the quality or quantity of DNA may be insufficient to produce interpretable results, or the evidentiary sample may containa mixture of DNA from several individuals (e.g., a sample taken from a victim of a gang rape).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks for the informative link elvis

aussie

[Athena]

I believe it was Fernie who wouldn't let him on the jet because of he seemed out of control.. As far as the rest I think it is more post-crime behavior that is far out of the norm and should have been heavily investigated, not rewarded by more 'Breakfasts with Steve.'

"Breakfasts with Steve" without notes taken by a law enforcement officer investigating a crime. I'll never understand that one.

[aussiesheila]

According to your theory, a group of sexual sadists were having a orgy in the Ramsey basement with JB as their victim, at Christmas, with both parents being present in the home. And you wonder why people think your theory defies logic.
You are right rashomon, I do wonder, mainly because they have never bothered to set out their reasons why.
(Not to mention the ransom note which you would have to build into you theory too). But since you asked me, even when going along with your theory for the sake of argumentation, I would find it highly unlikely that 3 perps of that type would be working on the victim 'simultaneoulsy' , i. e. perp A was in the process of 'operating the garrote' while perp B shoved a sharp object up the child's vagina, and perp C was already getting his baseball bat ready to bash JB's head in in case she should scream. Sorry, but imo such a scenario borders on the comical.
Actually rashomon, while I think Perp A was 'operating the garrote', and perp B was simeltaneously using the stun gun, I don't think it was Perp C but Perp B, who picked up the sharp object with his free hand and shoved it up JonBenet's vagina and when she screamed he then picked up the baseball bat with both hands and swung it with all his strength at her head.

I think you mean the thought of someone believing such a scenario took place borders on the comical, but really, I think you are displaying your ignorance of what pedophiles can and do do, when you say that.

The autopsy evidence shows that this was a hideously gruesome crime indicating to me that this was no ordinary intra-family 'accidental' crime, but the result of something far more sinister. You can deny that a stun gun was used, you can insist that the garotte was just staging and that the head bash was the result of a badly aimed swipe with a flashlight if that's what it takes for you to continue to believe in your RDI, but please don't dismiss my theory on the basis that it is 'comical' or that my believing in it is 'comical' just because it is so very different from yours. I really think it deserves more considered criticism than that, it is after all, totally consistent with the evidence.

And yes, I have factored in the writing of the ransom note, IMO it was written by Patsy who was forced to do it by the pedophiles after the murder.

[sweetcharlotte]

<snip>

Let's not forget John Ramsey and all he did to compromise and contaminate the basement. Closing a window only he saw open, tampering with evidence on the body by pulling at the cord on the wrists, tearing the tape off her face, and the thing that really destroyed the crux of the crime scene beyond repair, picking up JonBenet's body and carrying her upstairs.

Let's not forget first of all that John Ramsey was the father - not a friend, not a neighbor, not LE. Let's not blame him for reacting the way a normal father would.

Want to place some blame? Let's look at the BPD who left Linda Arndt on her own for 2 1/2 hours - and the FBI who sat on their butts at the PD rather than going to the home and properly investigating.

JMO

[aussiesheila]

I'll be happy to tell you why I think it defies logic - I don't believe Patsy Ramsey would go out of her way to let some photographer in her house to take pictures of JonBenet after midnight when they have to be up very early the next morning.

Patsy had no need to put herself out like that - she already had portfolios full of pictures of JonBenet, quality photo studio portraits. JonBenet had already been featured on the cover of a magazine, and as journalism major, I'm sure Patsy Ramsey knew that magazines don't show up at your house after midnight on Christmas night to take shots for a layout featuring a 6 year old child.

She had no need whatsoever to lower herself and her child to being desperate enough to sit up late on Christmas night for some Santa photographer that didn't even have time to see them other than in the middle of the night, just to see JB on some magazine cover.

I also don't believe for a second that Patsy would just let some guy in, hand over her daughter, and then go lay down in another room and take a nap while some guy she didn't know that well was taking pictures of her. Patsy was a more diligent mother than that. When JonBenet had dance rehearsals, Patsy insisted on being present. I have no doubt that as a stage mom she would absolutely want to be present while someone photographed her daughter, especially in their house at that time of night.

I don't believe there is enough evidence of even one person that wasn't a Ramsey having been in that house, let alone three. There is no evidence whatsoever that JonBenet's hands were restrained above her head by a wire, and there is no forensic evidence whatsoever that she was ever standing on a chair for that, either. There's no evidence that a chair had been moved around. There's no evidence that three different people had been standing around molesting anyone. There's no evidence on JonBenet indicating that three different people were molesting her.

On top of that, I do not believe Patsy would be forced into writing that RN, and if she had, I seriously doubt that both her and JR would have been spending the past decade lying for and defending anyone who murdered their daughter like that.

I don't believe the people you implicate are still suspects. GM was cleared. Santa Bill was cleared. FW was cleared.

In short, no offense, aussiesheila, but your theory does not match up to the evidence. If you had some solid proof that people who knew the Rs were in a pedophile ring and had had orgies starring kids of people they knew, that would be one thing, but it seems to me as if you have a sick mind and dreamed this all up whether the evidence fits or not.So they had to be up early the next morning. Don't you think Patsy would have decided they could catch up on their sleep on the two flights they were going to be on the next day? Here I am and it's 1.49 am and I've just come across your post, I should go to bed, but I'm going on an 8 hour car trip tomorrow and as I'm not driving, the car is where I'll be getting my sleep for this 24 hour period. It might actually have seemed like a very good idea to Patsy that JonBenet might sleep on the flights, I'm sure she would rather that than have a bored JonBenet pestering her all the way. But let's say Patsy wasn't all that keen on the idea of letting a photographer come to photograph JonBenet at 11 pm. Don't you think Santa would have dredged up all his best persuasive powers to bend Patsy to his will? He was desperate to get JonBenet into his clutches IMO. His friend Charles Kuralt the highly regarded photographer was supposed to have come to an earlier function of the Ramseys', the one on the 23rd I think, but apparently couldn't come at the last minute, or so Santa told Patsy. Don't you think he could have convinced Patsy that Charles was just sooo.. disappointed he couldn't come on the 23rd and was really keen to get just one hour with JonBenet with Santa on Christmas night, so as not to miss some publishing deadline. I imagine Charles Kuralt was a freelance photographer, they work all hours. Patsy might have had the money to build up portfolios galore of JonBenet, but her money couldn't get JonBenet published in a magazine being photographed by Charles Kuralt could. I don't think Patsy went and laid down in another room and took a nap while some guy she didn't know that well was taking pictures of JonBenet at all. What I do think is that Patsy started falling asleep sitting up in the kitchen with JonBenet and Santa while they were WAITING for the photographer to arrive. Patsy knew Santa very well, he had been Santa at their Christmas party every year for the last 3 years, he was a member of their church. She TRUSTED him. She knew he 'adored' JonBenet, he carried the fairy dust she gave him in a little vial with him to surgery. So when Santa encouraged her to go and lie down on a sofa in the next room, yes I think she went, what is so unbelievable about that? Santa would have promised to wake her as soon as the photographer arrived.

There is evidence that her hands were restrained above her head - her wrists had cord looped and tied around them with 15 inches of cord between the 2 loops. I have provided an explanation for the existence of the 15 inches ie that it was hooked to a point overhead, probably the pipelines running beneath the ceiling in the basement. No other theory has done that so far. Her arms were outstretched above her head when her body was found. My explanation for this is that rigor mortis had already set in in her arms when they placed her body on the floor of the basement. The fact that they were outstretched above her head is an indication to me that she had been in that position at the time of her death and had been left in that position for up to an hour before they decided on what to do after they had accidentally killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

There is most certainly evidence that a chair had been moved around. There are photos of the trainroom doorway and the chair 'blocking' it that have John very confused in his two police interviews. IMO that chair was moved by FW the morning when he went down to the cellar on one of his visits, moved from it's position under the point of attachment of the wrist loop cord to the overhead pipe, moved because he was trying to eliminate all evidence of the pedophile activities the night before.

There is evidence that there was at least one intruder, foreign male DNA under her fingernails and on her underpants, animal fibres on her hands that matched nothing in the house, a brown glove that didn't belong to the Ramsey's found in the yard near a baseball bat, black fibres on JonBenet's crotch area that matched nothing in the house, a scuff mark on the wall under the window in the trainroom, a HiTec shoe print on the floor of the cellar, a non-Ramsey pubic hair on JonBenet's blanket.

IMO Patsy was aware or at the very lest suspected that both her father and FW were sexually abusing JonBenet and did nothing to stop it other than take her on numerous visits to Dr Beuf. If you know anything about manipulating controlling personalities you would know that they could take this fact, embellish it, distort it, to make Patsy look very bad indeed. The mastermind of the coverup would have made this very clear to Patsy and could have 'blackmailed' her into writing the note. The mastermind would have pointed out to Patsy that once John knew all about this, he would sue for divorce and get custody of Burke. I think this would have been enough of an incentive to 'force' Patsy into writing the note and to keep quiet about it to the day she died.

Those people might have been cleared, but whoever cleared them was incompetent at best, corrupt at worst IMO.

You could say I have a sick mind, you could, on the other hand, say I know what pedophiles get up to.

[Louisadelmar]

I think you should read up on what Charles Kuralt was famous for. He was a journalist who did commentary on America. He's not like Richard Avedon or Gilles Bensimon. More like Garrison Keillor with accompanying video (shot by a crew)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Kuralt

[thewhitewitch1]

Did he tell Arndt or anyone at the time that he'd taken it upon himself to rearrange a crime scene? All that note-taking for accuracy, one would think he'd have been aware enough to leave the physical evidence alone.

One could say the same for the Ramseys. Oh, I know it was their child and all that, but that doesn't account for JR closing the window, picking up glass, taking the tape off of JBs mouth, picking her up, covering her with yet another blanket etc etc.
Yes, I know what JR said about all that but you know, he had to have known she was dead and that picking her up, taking the tape off her mouth and removing one of the wrist ligatures was useless. I'd still like to know how he didn't see that ligature around her neck but had the presence of mind to see that her lips were blue and her eyes were closed.
Personally, I think he removed the ligature from her wrist because he knew it looked totally staged due to how loose it was and the length of cord, but he didn't want to remove the "garrote" because it was a more important part of the staging. IMO
Fleet did some dumb things but how does this make him look more guilty than JR? What JR did was far more damaging to the evidence and crime scene.

[Coloradokares]

That's why there are so many divorces.

Another thing we agree on. So far 38 years for me and my husband guess that gives me some knowledge to form opinions on that subject with. HA HA

[Coloradokares]

Really? John went back down there alone after he found JB's body? You need a link for that one.

Misunderstanding on my part. I thought you meant anytime alone. That would be in Johns case prior to body found. Did I misread your post. If so I am sorry I was mistaken and misunderstood what you said.

[Coloradokares]

What was the deal with Fleet? Someone wouldn't let him fly to corporate jet to Atlanta for the funeral, then when he gets there John's brother wants him moved from his home to a motel, and then he has a hissy fit at Patsy's parents? Anyone know what all of that was about?

Fleets been clear on all that. He will be even more clear and specific if there is ever body of prosectors he respects or a trial. He was clear with them what he felt his concerns were.

[Louisadelmar]

Fleets been clear on all that. He will be even more clear and specific if there is ever body of prosectors he respects or a trial. He was clear with them what he felt his concerns were.

Actually I haven't heard a comment or explanation from Fleet on any of that.

[Coloradokares]

Amen.... and that isn't the type of relationship we are speaking of with the Whites and the Ramseys .... it would be interesting to know how often they spent time getting acquainted, not just socializing...


What I can offer you is this in the way of heresay. They were best friends. Perhaps even better friends between Patsy and Priscilla. They were back and forth and together and more than socially entertaining each other ALOT. They were not so much just social friends but really close personal friends. The kind of friendship that is cemented by kids the same age. Mutual recreational pursuits and interests as sailing for the men. They were really quite close and not in competition financially etc. They spent a good deal of time with the kids and the wives most especially coming and going ....Best friends were how both couples termed their former relationship. Fleet and Priscilla White were grief stricken beyond belief at what happened to JonBenet. To imply otherwise I find very upsetting. I truly believe they loved JonBenet and the entire family. It is my opinion they have done more to seek justice for her than anyone else . That is truly my opinion. Intruder or none... I'd feel the same way. I have to respect your opinions to lend a more sinister appearance to the Whites to clear the Ramseys. However I will be mortally shocked if that ever turns out to be the case. Remember they were cleared. Or as cleared as anyone has been in this matter. A statement was given out by Alex Hunter however no one has totally 200% been cleared. Not under suspicion at this time is as cleared as anyone has been. A position the Ramseys themselves have not to this time been given. Officially at least.

[Louisadelmar]

One could say the same for the Ramseys. Oh, I know it was their child and all that, but that doesn't account for JR closing the window, picking up glass, taking the tape off of JBs mouth, picking her up, covering her with yet another blanket etc etc.
Yes, I know what JR said about all that but you know, he had to have known she was dead and that picking her up, taking the tape off her mouth and removing one of the wrist ligatures was useless. I'd still like to know how he didn't see that ligature around her neck but had the presence of mind to see that her lips were blue and her eyes were closed.
Personally, I think he removed the ligature from her wrist because he knew it looked totally staged due to how loose it was and the length of cord, but he didn't want to remove the "garrote" because it was a more important part of the staging. IMO
Fleet did some dumb things but how does this make him look more guilty than JR? What JR did was far more damaging to the evidence and crime scene.

I'll refer you to this post by Elvislives who has more hands-on experience.

From the Mercy Killing thread:
I have a hard time with this theory. One thing that has been consistent in my experience is that parents are eternally optimistic and hopeful when it comes to the health & survival of their children. We get patients who come in practically decapitated..dead on arrival..all resussitive efforts of EMS have failed...and the parents are pleading with us to make their child better, in spite of their obvious terminal state. I dont know if its a defense mechanism, denial, or what but parents are universally unwilling to accept that their child is gone. And the WORST cases are those whose children don't even appear to be injured (head trauma or internal bleeding). JB would have looked just like she was sleeping, plus she was breathing (hence the petechiae on the lungs). It's hard to believe that parents in that situation would just write her off so quickly.

[Coloradokares]

Actually I haven't heard a comment or explanation from Fleet on any of that.

Then read the letters Fleet wrote....They are pretty explanatory. Fleet and Priscilla White have remained steadfastly supporting all efforts to seek justice for JonBenet in whatever way they can. What they did not support was the travesty of the way the prosecutorial bodies handled things. If you didn't see how the Whites handled things all above the pale then is it possible that you chose early on to buy into the way the Ramseys set out to discredit all their friends one by one. They did not go out and bad mouth the Ramseys ......but rather spoke about the way the case was being handled. They have steadfastly remained silent to the media . They have written no books. Or no dirty trickster emails like Susan Stine. But what they did do is voice their concerns right from the beginning that to not cooperate fully in the investigation into the murder of JonBenet was not right. You would be upset to in their shoes quite possibly. You have to realize that. If you lived and experienced for yourself the carbon copy you might be upset as well. Also who has more to gain by trying to defame the Whites than the Ramseys. Who else did the Ramseys point a finger to....everyone. How many murderers could JonBenet have had? JMO. I could be wrong but the Whites neither Priscilla nor Fleet had a thing to do with the murder of JonBenet. If they did I will never regain faith or trust in humanbeings again.

[Louisadelmar]

I don't think Fleet White killed her either.

But when the Ramseys keep being called out for their behavior, I think Fleet White gets brought up because his behavior was at least equally odd.

[shill]

It's statements like this that IMO make you look very bias. Fleet and Priscilla White were grief stricken beyond belief at what happened to JonBenet. To imply otherwise I find very upsetting.
How are they any more grief stricken then the Ramseys?
And yet you don't seem upset when people imply otherwise about the Ramseys.
And why didn't the Whites stand up and shout at the top of their lungs that they are best friends with the Ramseys and know them very well and there is no way they could possibly do this?

[Athena]

It's statements like this that IMO make you look very bias.
How are they any more grief stricken then the Ramseys?
And yet you don't seem upset when people imply otherwise about the Ramseys.
And why didn't the Whites stand up and shout at the top of their lungs that they are best friends with the Ramseys and know them very well and there is no way they could possibly do this?

Whether they had anything to do with JBRs murder remains to be seen since the Whites' records are sealed but IMO they definitely had a case of "the man doth protest too much, methinks". Funny how FW wrote all of these letters and when it came time to appeal the decision he received re: Krebs' story, he let the time lapse.

I also believe ST persuaded FW during his "breakfast meetings" that were not documented, to write those letters and told FW lies about the false alleged accusations the Ramseys made.

I certainly would like to see the package that Wood received re: White's handwriting and comparison to those letters but it has never been released. Part of evidence that is being withheld as well. jmo

[Coloradokares]

It's statements like this that IMO make you look very bias.
How are they any more grief stricken then the Ramseys?
And yet you don't seem upset when people imply otherwise about the Ramseys.
And why didn't the Whites stand up and shout at the top of their lungs that they are best friends with the Ramseys and know them very well and there is no way they could possibly do this?

The only reason why Shill that I don't get outrageously upset if the Ramseys are implicated is the possibility exists that the statistics will prove out. Most times when a body is located of a child in the home 1. A parent will discover or find the body. 2. the parent or parents will have killed their own child. Statistically that is true. I used to get all kinds of upset that anyone could say the Ramseys could have done this to JonBenet. I do know friends who knew them very well and they do say to this day there is not a way they could have possible have done this. However it is apparent that the Whites for whatever their reasons are not totally convinced . Or so one would think from their letters and actions. I wil say this Shill I believe Ramseys knew something if not. Something so big they kept quiet and took the pressure and scorn rather than come forward with the truth of what they knew. We have discussed this before. Its the only two possibilities that exist that make sense in the light of evidence. A random intruder that just happened to stumble in and do this does have the same probability to me .

[shill]

The only reason why Shill that I don't get outrageously upset if the Ramseys are implicated is the possibility exists that the statistics will prove out. Most times when a body is located of a child in the home 1. A parent will discover or find the body. 2. the parent or parents will have killed their own child. Statistically that is true. I used to get all kinds of upset that anyone could say the Ramseys could have done this to JonBenet. I do know friends who knew them very well and they do say to this day there is not a way they could have possible have done this. However it is apparent that the Whites for whatever their reasons are not totally convinced . Or so one would think from their letters and actions. I wil say this Shill I believe Ramseys knew something if not. Something so big they kept quiet and took the pressure and scorn rather than come forward with the truth of what they knew. We have discussed this before. Its the only two possibilities that exist that make sense in the light of evidence. A random intruder that just happened to stumble in and do this does have the same probability to me .
Ramseys seem to think it's highly probable that the friends they didn't even now three years could have been the culprits.

[andU]

The only reason why Shill that I don't get outrageously upset if the Ramseys are implicated is the possibility exists that the statistics will prove out. Most times when a body is located of a child in the home 1. A parent will discover or find the body. 2. the parent or parents will have killed their own child. Statistically that is true. I used to get all kinds of upset that anyone could say the Ramseys could have done this to JonBenet. I do know friends who knew them very well and they do say to this day there is not a way they could have possible have done this. However it is apparent that the Whites for whatever their reasons are not totally convinced . Or so one would think from their letters and actions. I wil say this Shill I believe Ramseys knew something if not. Something so big they kept quiet and took the pressure and scorn rather than come forward with the truth of what they knew. We have discussed this before. Its the only two possibilities that exist that make sense in the light of evidence. A random intruder that just happened to stumble in and do this does have the same probability to me .

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that they believed it was an intruder that 'just stumbled in' ....

[thewhitewitch1]

I'll refer you to this post by Elvislives who has more hands-on experience.

From the Mercy Killing thread:

How many of those parents actually inflicted the injuries to their child, though? You can't use statistics with this case. Elvislives may have experience with some things but she cannot know what happened, or how said parents reacted with any real certainty. We don't know that JB was not convulsing; we don't know that they didn't hear her skull crack; we don't know what they were thinking at that time.
Regardless of what "most parents do", you can't dismiss that someone might do something different and consider them innocent just because of what "most parents do". Not even a good arguement.

[Coloradokares]

Ramseys seem to think it's highly probable that the friends they didn't even now three years could have been the culprits.

Shill respectfully the road traveled both ways. Unfortunately its that balance again. Ramseys thought everyone did it and tried to accuse most everyone at one point or another. Slowly but surely as all the inconsistencies and accusations surfaced the friends fell away false accused and confused and bewildered how that was. To be sure there are some who remain steadfastly loyal. Stines and other less known or publicized friends. If your implying the Whites. I don't see it . I truly don't But you have must have your own reasons for feeling Whites or any number of other possibilites exist. I would be sorely wrong if Whites were involved.

[Coloradokares]

I don't think Fleet White killed her either.

But when the Ramseys keep being called out for their behavior, I think Fleet White gets brought up because his behavior was at least equally odd.

How odd would your behavior be if you saw inconsistencies and had stark concerns...Remember Fleet was there. What if you thought it was possible that your best friends in the world may have harmed their daughter in some inexplicable and bizzare way. If justification is being sought for odd behavior it'd seem that would qualify as well.

[Coloradokares]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that they believed it was an intruder that 'just stumbled in' ....

Then your saying it was a close friend again. I just don't think thats likely. Not 200% impossible but not surely not probable. But I respect your opinion

[sweetcharlotte]

I don't think that is what andU was saying. JMO

[Coloradokares]

I don't think that is what andU was saying. JMO

The please shed some light on what it is you think was said. Its not the Ramseys according to IDI's, if its not back to a close friend etc. Then are we not back to a random intruder? Because the other possibilities such as jeff merrick or other business enemy to this point are cast down. With the exception of a unknown enemy who I believe has to this point not been shared as yet with this board. I would like you to shed light on who what when why and where.

[LindaA]

Intruder, yes. Random, no. JMO.

[sweetcharlotte]

<snip>

Because the other possibilities such as jeff merrick or other business enemy to this point are cast down.

<snip>


Why is it so difficult to understand that even though a person may not be under active investigation if something arose that cast suspicion on them they could/would be looked at again?

[bullmoose]

I think almost from the time John Ramsey came screaming upstairs with Jonbenet's body that the BPD was focused on the Ramseys as their only suspects; I also think that the BPD went to everyone the Ramseys named as being close to them and told them that the Ramseys were blaming them or naming them as suspects; to get them to say bad things about the Ramseys. I think that Fleet White's behavior is understandable if he was being fed crap by the cops about his formerly good friends. Something was affecting him in a big way, almost from the start. In my own experience, this is SOP for cops to do, turn your closest friends against you by the use of lies. Thats how they get people to rat off on their friends; IMO they do not appeal to their consciounces, but to their need to save themselves from big trouble. Fleet was there with John, reportedly Fleet had looked in the room earlier and seen nothing, so Fleet was very possibly running scared of being blamed for the crime, and the cops probably told him John had fingered him as a likely suspect; IMO this would explain his bizarre behavior from early on. I also do not think Fleet White did it, but I do not think it was a random intruder. I do not have a concrete suspect to point at however.:shrug:

[Eagle1]

I think almost from the time John Ramsey came screaming upstairs with Jonbenet's body that the BPD was focused on the Ramseys as their only suspects; I also think that the BPD went to everyone the Ramseys named as being close to them and told them that the Ramseys were blaming them or naming them as suspects; to get them to say bad things about the Ramseys. I think that Fleet White's behavior is understandable if he was being fed crap by the cops about his formerly good friends. Something was affecting him in a big way, almost from the start.

In my own experience, this is SOP for cops to do, turn your closest friends against you by the use of lies. Thats how they get people to rat off on their friends; IMO they do not appeal to their consciounces, but to their need to save themselves from big trouble. Fleet was there with John, reportedly Fleet had looked in the room earlier and seen nothing, so Fleet was very possibly running scared of being blamed for the crime, and the cops probably told him John had fingered him as a likely suspect; IMO this would explain his bizarre behavior from early on. I also do not think Fleet White did it, but I do not think it was a random intruder. I do not have a concrete suspect to point at however.:shrug:

Exactly, they were playing the friends against each other with lies, very probably.

Another thing about FW, he said he put the suitcase under the window, and a piece of broken glass on it, which seems to me to be a rather odd thing to do. Any of us know not to touch possible evidence at a crime scene. You can't tell me FW didn't know that. Was he working on an alibi that someone came in thru the window, and why would he need an alibi, hadn't even been questionned.

He wouldn't have had access to the police files, to put the pic of the open dictionary into it, right? That was probably a cop?

[andU]

As I've stated before, I'd like to see a new investigation, every single person re-interviewed (except those who are deceased, of course) and see who comes out as Suspect #1.... without DNA being used.
As I probably have also stated, at this point, I'm leaving everyone under suspicion. At this point I lean toward believing that an intruder (someone not living in the house) who may have had access to a key and an axe to grind because of some conflicting interests with John Ramsey. It may be a total stranger or someone who knew the Ramseys quite well. I know, that is a wide range of suspects.

[aussiesheila]

Other than moving the suitcase and opening the window, going back to the room where JB was found, picking up the duct tape and dropping it back on the blanket, what else did Fleet "coincidentally" do? Busy little bee, wasn't he? JMOAnd the notes, don't forget the note taking, sweetcharlotte.

[Tober]

As I've stated before, I'd like to see a new investigation, every single person re-interviewed (except those who are deceased, of course) and see who comes out as Suspect #1.... without DNA being used.

The fiber evidence and handwriting evidence (in light of the totality of evidence) already indicate to us who "Suspect #1" is. It would be pointless to investigate again those who've been cleared. Remember too, the two prime suspects were both given opportunity to innocently explain away their fibers being found in incriminating places in direct association with the crime, and neither could do it. The fiber and handwriting evidence tell us who we should be scrutinizing more. Until these things can be soundly and innocently squared away, investigating others will simply prove to be a waste of time.

[bullmoose]

I'll have to admit that Fleet White's notetaking is an odd point that sticks in my craw, that behavior is probably the one thing about Fleet that keeps him in the suspect list that I have on the case. Every other odd thing he did I can put off with one excuse or another. But not that. Why the notetaking?

[Louisadelmar]

The fiber evidence and handwriting evidence (in light of the totality of evidence) already indicate to us who "Suspect #1" is. It would be pointless to investigate again those who've been cleared. Remember too, the two prime suspects were both given opportunity to innocently explain away their fibers being found in incriminating places in direct association with the crime, and neither could do it. The fiber and handwriting evidence tell us who we should be scrutinizing more. Until these things can be soundly and innocently squared away, investigating others will simply prove to be a waste of time.

The 'innocent' explanation is they lived in the house. Henry Lee said the fibers could be simple transfers.

What would you consider a sufficient explanation?

[nuisanceposter]

Probably for the same reason JR gave for friends of his suggesting he acquire legal counsel - FW realized J&P were in over their heads, and didn't have the presence of mind needed to stay on top of every detail. I can't think of a more important time to take notes than when you're dealing with a kidnapping and may need to know later what was going on when. I'd love to know what FW wrote in his notes. I'm surprised the RST didn't find a way to subpoena them.

[sweetcharlotte]

I'll have to admit that Fleet White's notetaking is an odd point that sticks in my craw, that behavior is probably the one thing about Fleet that keeps him in the suspect list that I have on the case. Every other odd thing he did I can put off with one excuse or another. But not that. Why the notetaking?

Three other things bother me. What did he do prior to the funeral that caused Fernie to keep him off the corporate plane to Atlanta? Why did John's brother want him (Fleet) and his wife moved from his home in Atlanta to a motel? Why did Fleet get so upset (angry) when he found out that John and Patsy were going on CNN?

JMO

[nuisanceposter]

The 'innocent' explanation is they lived in the house. Henry Lee said the fibers could be simple transfers.

What would you consider a sufficient explanation?

And whose explanation was that? Not John Ramsey's. I need to refresh my memory about Patsy, but when JR was asked about the fibers, he responded with outrage. He did not provide an innocent explanation for how his clothing fibers would be in the underwear and on the pubic area of his daughter, after she had been wiped down by the person who redressed her after wiping her. He did not answer that question at all other than to question if the interviewer was trying to dishonor his relationship with his daughter.

I would have accepted his reply better if he had been able to give a reason for how his fibers could be there, but his outrage seems to be a method of distraction to me.

I just don't think random transfer fiber can explain JR's fibers in an area that had been wiped by the redresser, in underwear that she had never worn before and JR did not say he had seen her in that evening. Perhaps if he had said, "Yeah, I helped her use the potty" I could see it, but would still wonder how his fibers could be there when supposedly she had been wiped down by the person who redressed her after he sexually assaulted her.

[nuisanceposter]

Three other things bother me. What did he do prior to the funeral that caused Fernie to keep him off the corporate plane to Atlanta? Why did John's brother want him (Fleet) and his wife moved from his home in Atlanta to a motel? Why did Fleet get so upset (angry) when he found out that John and Patsy were going on CNN?

JMO

I can answer about CNN - on page 65, hb, PMPT, FW is telling JR to "go back to Boulder and help the police" and that JR's job was to "cooperate with police, not stonewall them." FW wondered how J&P could "could even think about going on CNN" because a television appearance was "unthinkable", "even if they wanted to respond to rumors going around."

There's an explanation in DOI why the Whites went from Jeff Ramsey's house to a motel, but I can't find it right now.

[bullmoose]

NP What are you refering to in regard to John Ramsey? Not the imaginary fibers he was asked about, are you? He didn't respond at all to the question when it was asked during questioning, his lawyer interceded and asked for proof of the veracity of the question before he would let JR reply in any way. Remember? What did they do when challenged? They dropped the question and moved on. Or are you referring to another line of questioning that I am unaware of? If so, I would appreciate a link to such aline of questioning that I was totally unaware of.:rolleyes:

[Zoey]

NP What are you refering to in regard to John Ramsey? Not the imaginary fibers he was asked about, are you? He didn't respond at all to the question when it was asked during questioning, his lawyer interceded and asked for proof of the veracity of the question before he would let JR reply in any way. Remember? What did they do when challenged? They dropped the question and moved on. Or are you referring to another line of questioning that I am unaware of? If so, I would appreciate a link to such aline of questioning that I was totally unaware of.:rolleyes:

Bullmoose...thank you, I was just signing in to reply to this and you beat me to it!!

To answer another question, could Fleet getting upset with the Ramseys going on CNN be due to the fact that Priscilla's niece, Heather Cox, was a reporter for CNN? She was a sports reporter at the time, but I believe I had read that she was going into investigative reporting. Was Fleet worried that his own niece would be investigating this crime??? Just a thought, and just my opinion.

[nuisanceposter]

This is what I'm referring to -

http://www.acandyrose.com/atl2000-interviews-john-ramsey.txt

21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is
22 our belief based on forensic evidence that
23 there are hairs that are associated, that the
24 source is the collared black shirt that you
25 sent us that are found in your daughter's
0058
1 underpants, and I wondered if you --
2 A. Bull****. I don't believe that.
3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
6 disgrace --
7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
8 think you are. That's disgusting.
9 MR. WOOD: I think you --
10 MR. LEVIN: I am not.
11 MR. WOOD: Yes, you are.

<snip>

23 MR. LEVIN: This is a murder
24 investigation, and I am trying to get an
25 explanation, which can be an innocent
0060
1 explanation.



But John Ramsey doesn't have an explanation, innocent or otherwise. He responds to the question by displaying outrage, which I see as an attempt to divert and distract as well as being counter-productive to solving the murder.

And as I have stated before, Levin was not required to show all evidence and reports to the Ramseys and their attorneys, and being under no such obligation, entirely within his right to end the line of questioning rather than give out more information to a prime suspect in a murder investigation.

[bullmoose]

Thank-you NP for the link of John Ramseys questioning; but you didn't include the rest of the story, did you? On the following two pages of transcript it is clear that the question was asked so that it would go on the record to be quoted about in places like here, when Levin would not, and in my opinion, could not prove the veracity of the basis of his question. If the fibers from JR's shirt had actually been found in Jonbenet's genital area, there would have been an arrest and trial, the evidence would have so rivetting. But there never was because there never was any match. If a person takes the time to read the transcript before and after page 57 and 58 it is clear that it was a trick question, and a dirty one at that.:flamemad:

[nuisanceposter]

Gosh, I just don't share your view...

[bullmoose]

NP: That's okay, I don't come here just to read posts by people who agree with me, I enjoy your posts.:biggrin:

[Louisadelmar]

[...]
24 source is the collared black shirt that you
25 sent us that are found in your daughter's
0058
1 underpants, and I wondered if you --
2 A. Bull****. I don't believe that.
3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
6 disgrace --
7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
8 think you are. That's disgusting.
[...]
But John Ramsey doesn't have an explanation, innocent or otherwise. He responds to the question by displaying outrage, which I see as an attempt to divert and distract as well as being counter-productive to solving the murder.

And as I have stated before, Levin was not required to show all evidence and reports to the Ramseys and their attorneys, and being under no such obligation, entirely within his right to end the line of questioning rather than give out more information to a prime suspect in a murder investigation.

Maybe he doesn't have an explanation because the fibers aren't his. Maybe he has no idea why they think they are his fibers. But, for sure, if he'd calmly and rationally started offering suggestions he'd be seen as guilty for not feeliing outraged by the suggestion.

I think any father would be outraged by the suggestion he was molesting his daughter. Unless of course he was. Then he might start offering explanations as to innocent reasons for his fibers being there.

I'd like to know how they differentiated between John's shirt fibers andher blackpants fibers.

[LindaA]

Maybe he doesn't have an explanation because the fibers aren't his. Maybe he has no idea why they think they are his fibers. But, for sure, if he'd calmly and rationally started offering suggestions he'd be seen as guilty for not feeliing outraged by the suggestion.

I think any father would be outraged by the suggestion he was molesting his daughter. Unless of course he was.

Absolutely! :beer:

[bullmoose]

It was an obvious trick question like the one" Have you stopped beating your wife?". Any attempt at an answer would look guilty, and the fact that they asked it gives many on this board and others license to claim that there was a factual basis to it, when there was no basis in reality at all.

[shill]

But John Ramsey doesn't have an explanation, innocent or otherwise. He responds to the question by displaying outrage, which I see as an attempt to divert and distract as well as being counter-productive to solving the murder.He answered it exactly how he needed to answer it.
He called their bluff, and they folded!

And as I have stated before, Levin was not required to show all evidence and reports to the Ramseys and their attorneys, and being under no such obligation, entirely within his right to end the line of questioning rather than give out more information to a prime suspect in a murder investigation.
They said they had the evidence, so they made that information known. Showing proof of it would give out no more information then saying they had it. So there is no excuse for not proving it exists, if it was true.

We all know John would be in jail if it was true, and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. You should spend your time on more constructive debates then this dead horse NP.

[bullmoose]

I remember a term not much used anymore-flogging a dead horse- which means carrying on pointless debate; it seems appropriate here to let NP fly away on the magic carpet of imaginary fibers while astride the dead horse that she has been flogging so hard, yet sadly to no effect that anybody can see.:biggrin:

[sweetcharlotte]

I can answer about CNN - on page 65, hb, PMPT, FW is telling JR to "go back to Boulder and help the police" and that JR's job was to "cooperate with police, not stonewall them." FW wondered how J&P could "could even think about going on CNN" because a television appearance was "unthinkable", "even if they wanted to respond to rumors going around."

There's an explanation in DOI why the Whites went from Jeff Ramsey's house to a motel, but I can't find it right now.


What made Fleet an expert on what J&P should do? No, there's more to the "Fleet" story than that. You don't get upset with your friend at his child's funeral and act in such a way that alienates that friend for life. I'm not saying I think Fleet White had anything to do with the murder of JonBenet, but I would like to know what caused him to behave in such a matter that it was noticed by more than one individual and is still talked about today.

JMO

[sweetcharlotte]

I have always believed the questioning by Levin regarding the black fibers was a very short fishing trip. :)