First Hand Knowledge On How It Feels To Be Strangled!!

[aussiesheila]

Originally posted by elvislives
I am in the medical field and am certain that the head injury came last. The reason I believe this is that head injuries produce enormous amounts of blood and no blood was found in the house (they used Luminol everywhere just in case it was cleaned up-- no evidence of blood). The only way a head injury would not produce tons of blood is when the heart is no longer pumping or pumping very weakly. So Jonbenet would have to have been strangled first, then hit on the head. If she had no evidence of fingernail marks on her neck, then she must have been restrained or otherwise incapacited.
This IMO is the only evidence that supports the Ramseys defense--it is conceivable that a parent might lose it and hit their child on the head and "accidentally" kill her--then stage a botched kidnapping. It is pretty hard to believe however that a parent would GARROT their child as punishment for anything, unless of course they are completely psychotic. Actually elvislives, I don't think the skin on her skull was broken by the blow, so all the bleeding that took place remained below the surface. That said, I agree absolutely with you that the blood loss was very minimal. OK, so under the skull fracture there was 'an extensive area of scalp hemmorhage measuring 7 x 4 inches', 'a thin film of subdural hemmorhage of 7-8 cc' and 'a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere'. That might seem a lot to the layperson but for a head wound of that size it is really very little. As you say, head wounds bleed profusely and had JonBenet not had the ligature tightened around her neck at the time of the head blow, and had her heart not stopped beating shortly after the head blow, it is my opinion that the hemorrhaging would have been far more extensive.

I think the strangulation and head wound occurred more or less simeltaneously, one pedophile pulling the garotte too tightly to silence her scream and another bashing her over the head with a baseball bat.

[aussiesheila]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


Her brain was also swollen, and it caused the pooled blood to appear as less because it was flattened.



nuisanceposter, how do you reconcile this statement of yours about the condition of JonBenet's brain with the way coroner described it's condition in the autopsy report? I have quoted the relevant section below.

"The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture. Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen. No inflammation is identified."

He clearly states there was no inflammation yet you claim the brain was swollen. I just can't see how you come to this conclusion.

The only thing abnormal the coroner mentions is "mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri" which for all we non-medical people know might be the result of repeated episodes of hypoxia, which would be consistent with my belief that she was subjected to a number of episodes of unconciousness by the repeated tightening and releasing of the garotte for the pedophiles enjoyment.

[aussiesheila]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
Oh, I don't think she was dead from the head wound when she was strangled. I think she was unconscious from it, though, and I think it would have eventually killed her if the strangulation hadn't.

nuisanceposter, if she was only unconscious from the head wound, there would have been 50x the amount of bleeding even if the strangulation came a mere 60 seconds after. If the strangulation was 10 minutes or more after there would have been even more bleeding and evidence of clotting. Your scenario just doesn't stack up against the incontrovertible evidence revealed at the autopsy.

[Athena]

Originally posted by aussiesheila
nuisanceposter, if she was only unconscious from the head wound, there would have been 50x the amount of bleeding even if the strangulation came a mere 60 seconds after. If the strangulation was 10 minutes or more after there would have been even more bleeding and evidence of clotting. Your scenario just doesn't stack up against the incontrovertible evidence revealed at the autopsy.

I so agree aussie.... There was only 7-8 cc of blood found in her skull which only equates to less than two teaspoonsfuls. As you pointed out the autopsy report specifically says there was no organization and fresh hemorrhage indicating no evidence of clotting and which means the head injury was inflicted at or shortly before JBR's death. JMO

[elvislives]

Originally posted by aussiesheila
Actually elvislives, I don't think the skin on her skull was broken by the blow, so all the bleeding that took place remained below the surface. That said, I agree absolutely with you that the blood loss was very minimal. OK, so under the skull fracture there was 'an extensive area of scalp hemmorhage measuring 7 x 4 inches', 'a thin film of subdural hemmorhage of 7-8 cc' and 'a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere'. That might seem a lot to the layperson but for a head wound of that size it is really very little. As you say, head wounds bleed profusely and had JonBenet not had the ligature tightened around her neck at the time of the head blow, and had her heart not stopped beating shortly after the head blow, it is my opinion that the hemorrhaging would have been far more extensive.

I think the strangulation and head wound occurred more or less simeltaneously, one pedophile pulling the garotte too tightly to silence her scream and another bashing her over the head with a baseball bat.

You are correct that the skin was not broken so no blood escaped. I only covered that base because I was anticipating a response from someone to the effect of: 'well how do you know she DIDN"T bleed profusely? Maybe the blood escaped thru her ears, nose, mouth, etc and they cleaned it up. This could explain why there was so little blood on the brain at autopsy. Patsy bashed her in the head, she bled profusely, Patsy cleaned up the blood, then staged the botched kidnapping"
That's the only reason I pointed out that luminol was used thruout the house--it rules out the even remote possiblility that this was an accident, then a staging.

[elvislives]

Originally posted by Athena


I so agree aussie.... There was only 7-8 cc of blood found in her skull which only equates to less than two teaspoonsfuls. As you pointed out the autopsy report specifically says there was no organization and fresh hemorrhage indicating no evidence of clotting and which means the head injury was inflicted at or shortly before JBR's death. JMO

I couldn't agree more. My original theory was that Patsy killed her by mistake and both parents took part in the cover up. Once the autopsy report was released it became obvious that it could not have happened that way. IF one or both parents were involved, it was no accident.

[elvislives]

Originally posted by shill
Aussiesheile,
IMO it would do more damage then one would expect, and the killer did not relize the blow was fatal until later.

Makes sense especially when you consider that a six year old's skull is much "softer" than that of an adult. A blow that might just knock out an adult could in fact break the skull of a child, thus killing the kid.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by shill
Aussiesheile,
More specifically a "Wonder Bar", google it.
It's about a foot long and a 1-1/2" wide. It is flat, so that would explain the skin not being cut,and the 1-3/4" wide hole. It would also make an excellent B&E tool since it is concealable, and not a bad weapon.
It's a flat wide mini crowbar.

IMO it would do more damage then one would expect, and the killer did not relize the blow was fatal until later.

Shill so what you appear to be describing is something designed to break and enter. Ewww to know they actually even make such things. chilling. Thanks for the information on that, what your saying then is if there was an intruder he could have brought his own break and enter tool and weapon with him. Not the flashlight with the batteries print free. Or baseball bat. My question is this would this tool leave evidence behind if it had been used to do a break and enter ? Would it mar the door frames or locks it was used against or window.... just curious.

[Ames]

Check out this quote from Smit on LKL....and what the posters on FFJ had to say.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8062&page=1&pp=12

[Athena]

Originally posted by Ames
Check out this quote from Smit on LKL....and what the posters on FFJ had to say.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8062&page=1&pp=12


This mother also had psychiatric problems:

Lopez said Alvarez spent 12 days in a psychiatric hospital before she was released.

“I went to see her three, four, five times,” he said. “I took the kids so they could see her.”

Alvarez, 27, was arrested Thursday in connection with the deaths two days earlier of her four children: Jennifer Lopez, 8, Gonzalo Lopez, 6, Daniel Valdez, 4, and Jessica Valdez, 2.

Autopsies have shown the children died of asphyxia, but investigators have released no further details about their deaths.

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/16052999.htm

[shill]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


Shill so what you appear to be describing is something designed to break and enter. Ewww to know they actually even make such things. chilling. Thanks for the information on that, what your saying then is if there was an intruder he could have brought his own break and enter tool and weapon with him. Not the flashlight with the batteries print free. Or baseball bat. My question is this would this tool leave evidence behind if it had been used to do a break and enter ? Would it mar the door frames or locks it was used against or window.... just curious. It's a tool for prying things open and apart. It is not made for B&E, but is a good choice for prying open doors, windows, drawers, and it would leave a lot of damage. It would also be very good for hooking and lifting a grate, like in the window well. It was obviously not used for entry but would be brought along for that purpose if needed.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by aussiesheila
Nuisanceposter, I have done quite a few posts now on this thread explaining what I think of the wrist cord and the absence of marks on her wrists so if you want to argue about that evidence with me would you please relate it to the specific comment that I have posted.

I have also posted on this thread about why I think the drugs that I believe were in her system were not detected by the tests the coroner performed. I believe I have clearly shown why you cannot conclude there were no drugs in her system just because the coroner did not detect any.

If you choose to go into denial about evidence that exists for a group of pedophiles having been in the basement that is your choice. I say there is plenty of evidence of a number of intruders that I believe were pedophiles, this is what immediately comes to mind:

the Santa bear in her bedroom

the pineapple in the bowl

a functional garotte around her neck

wrist ties of an unusual and complicated design, not at all like what would have been constructed by a kidnapper who would have been intent only on restraining her in the quickest possible way while abducting her or by someone attempting a kidnapping staging

arms set in rigor mortis outstretched and over her head in a position likely to have been the result of her having been killed in while her arms were in that unusual postion

a head wound that to all appearances could have only been inflicted intentionally and by an exceptionally violent and strong male person

black fibres found on her body and shirt

the footprint in the cellar room

marks on her body, most believably explained as having been made by a stungun

a scuff mark on the train room wall

the suitcase pushed up against the window in the trainroom

the pieces of broken glass dislodged from the window ledge on the top of the suitcase

the baseball bat outside in the yard where children do not normally play

animal hair under her fingernails

non-Ramsey DNA on her panties and under her fingernails

vaginal injuries caused by insertion of a foreign object

the disturbance of the garden bed in the area outside the basement toilet window




Also could you please provide the link to where I have said that Patsy "opened the door for the pedo ring and let them in and handed her daughter over". It's just that I have never said that so I would be very interested to know where you got the idea that is what I think happened. Thanks.

I have never heard that the "garden bed" outside the 'basement toilet window" was disturbed.
The "Santa Bear" came from a pageant JB was in.
The pedophile brought his own pineapple?
The only thing convincing to me in your arguement of evidence of an intruder is the DNA and even that can be explained away.
The rest could have all been staged. IMO

[shill]

I think the garrote and the ligature are the real deal. And that would only point to an intruder.
So as along as people believe that those items are staged, I can't imagine changing their opinion.

And once again, the simplest explanation is usually the correct explanation.

[andU]

Originally posted by aussiesheila
I have to agree that is one very likely possibility as to why no drugs were found in her system. Does the date-rape drug leave no trace because it is so rapidly metabolised? I don't know.

I am no expert, but as far as I know, what you are describing is what happens in erotic asphyxiation and auto-erotic asphyxiation. But I don't think this was the purpose of the semi-strangulations that were perfomed on JonBenet were for, if indeed they were performed, this is only a theory after all. I first read about what pedophiles apparently do at Websleuths, which is to do the semi-strangulations because as the girl they do it to returns to consciouness her muscles spasm and maybe she groans and gasps a bit and to the onlookers it approximates the appearance of female orgasm. So it is done entirely for the observers' pleasure and not the person experiencing it.

I know I have asked this before, but no one responded with thoughts: What about an herb or supplemental to a substance that is produced by the body itself? Such as: seratonin or melatonin? What about the OTC herb of Kava-kava, verilyn (I think that's the name), or some other herb/root that could intoxicate or induce sleepiness?

[elvislives]

I know I have asked this before, but no one responded with thoughts: What about an herb or supplemental to a substance that is produced by the body itself? Such as: seratonin or melatonin? What about the OTC herb of Kava-kava, verilyn (I think that's the name), or some other herb/root that could intoxicate or induce sleepiness?

I don't think the toxicology report was ever released, at least I have never seen it. But usually at autopsy they test the blood to make sure all the "substances that are produced by the body itself" are within certain parameters. For example, insulin has been used as a murder weapon in the past and insulin is produced naturally by the body. The way they determine if there was foul play is to analyze the blood and determine whether or not the insulin present is within the normal parameters. If it's way off the charts, that is a sign that something is amiss. I am speculating here, but I would assume that in a high profile case like this they would have done basic blood analysis.