View Full Version : John Planning To Put JB Body In Suitcase, And Dump It In Lake Michigan????
This is a gruesome thought...What if John had planned on putting JB's body in the suitcase (that was near the window), and taking it on the trip to Michigan..weighing it down and dumping it into Lake Michigan...(remember...they had a vacation home there..and were planning on going there the next day). Just a thought...(IMO)
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 03:29 PM
What is interesting about it is it starts out as an IDI theory, and now, like everything in the case, morphs into something that supports the opposite theory.
I think the blanket and book were in the suitcase because no one took them out after a previous trip. I don't think anyone was ever planning to put her in the suitcase.
But now that it supports an RDI theory, lets watch how fast the IDIs distance themselves from the idea.
Trying to multitask, and didn't make it back in time to edit...BUT..I wanted to add that if the body was inside of a weighted down suitcase, it would make it almost impossible for the body to ever be found.
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
What is interesting about it is it starts out as an IDI theory, and now, like everything in the case, morphs into something that supports the opposite theory.
I think the blanket and book were in the suitcase because no one took them out after a previous trip. I don't think anyone was ever planning to put her in the suitcase.
But now that it supports an RDI theory, lets watch how fast the IDIs distance themselves from the idea.
Yeah...you know...I had never before thought that anyone had ever planned on putting her in that suitcase...but, the more that I thought about it...I changed my mind. It COULD be possible...they did have a home on Lake Michigan that they were planning on going to that day. What if, at first, they had planned on still going on the trip...but, taking that suitcase with them with JB's body inside...and dumping it there in Lake Michigan. They may have AT FIRST was going to dump the body, come back to Boulder, and THEN call 911 and tell them about the ransom letter. But, for whatever reason...JB wouldn't fit, or they just were so much in a panic, that they changed their mind. Its just a THEORY...IMO
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Ames
Yeah...you know...I had never before thought that anyone had ever planned on putting her in that suitcase...but, the more that I thought about it...I changed my mind. It COULD be possible...they did have a home on Lake Michigan that they were planning on going to that day. What if, at first, they had planned on still going on the trip...but, taking that suitcase with them with JB's body inside...and dumping it there in Lake Michigan. They may have AT FIRST was going to dump the body, come back to Boulder, and THEN call 911 and tell them about the ransom letter. But, for whatever reason...JB wouldn't fit, or they just were so much in a panic, that they changed their mind. Its just a THEORY...IMO
Pretty bold to fly with their daughter in the suitcase. What if the odor was noticed?
Also they couldn't drop the suitcase from the plane, as they had a pilot on board. JR wasn't flying it himself. They'd have had to take a boat far out into the lake and drop her. They couldn't do it anywhere near shore for fear of the suitcase washing up on shore. Even with additional weight it might was up if too close to shore.
I presume they had a boat, though I don't know that to be a fact. They'd look quite suspicious carrying a suitcase on board a boat.
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
Pretty bold to fly with their daughter in the suitcase. What if the odor was noticed?
Also they couldn't drop the suitcase from the plane, as they had a pilot on board. JR wasn't flying it himself. They'd have had to take a boat far out into the lake and drop her. They couldn't do it anywhere near shore for fear of the suitcase washing up on shore. Even with additional weight it might was up if too close to shore.
I presume they had a boat, though I don't know that to be a fact. They'd look quite suspicious carrying a suitcase on board a boat.
Well, nobody spotted Scott Peterson, carrying out Laci's body. They did have a boat, they could have done it during the night, and nobody would have seen. As far as the odor goes...that may have been a reason for them to change their mind about it. Although, I think that if they had of put her in a garbage bag, and sealed it off...and THEN put her in the suitcase, it would have eliminated the smell. I used to do this with stinky diapers...and it works!!! Anyway, its just a theory...and there are alot of different reasons that they could have changed their mind about it. I am just saying that in the beginning....it COULD have been their plan. IMO
Athena
10-28-2006, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
What is interesting about it is it starts out as an IDI theory, and now, like everything in the case, morphs into something that supports the opposite theory.
I think the blanket and book were in the suitcase because no one took them out after a previous trip. I don't think anyone was ever planning to put her in the suitcase.
But now that it supports an RDI theory, lets watch how fast the IDIs distance themselves from the idea.
I agree with you re: the blanket and book having already been in the suitcase. How do you explain though that the blanket fibers were found on JBR?
Coloradokares
10-28-2006, 04:15 PM
They had a private plane and pilot at their 24 hour a day disposal really. John could have flown but used a pilot since the cataracts were affecting visual issues. He was an avid sailor of a sail boats and owned of course his own. Remember their private plane bore Beths name on it. As far out as it sounded at first I had shiver go through me as they had the means to do this. Not that this is more than speculation or theory. Just saying they did have the means.
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
Pretty bold to fly with their daughter in the suitcase. What if the odor was noticed?
Also they couldn't drop the suitcase from the plane, as they had a pilot on board. JR wasn't flying it himself. They'd have had to take a boat far out into the lake and drop her. They couldn't do it anywhere near shore for fear of the suitcase washing up on shore. Even with additional weight it might was up if too close to shore.
I presume they had a boat, though I don't know that to be a fact. They'd look quite suspicious carrying a suitcase on board a boat.
Originally posted by Athena
I agree with you re: the blanket and book having already been in the suitcase. How do you explain though that the blanket fibers were found on JBR?
Yep...I think that SOMEONE could have put her in that suitcase (RDI theory, JOHN....IDI theory, intruder)....she didn't fit, so they took her out...IMO
Originally posted by Ames
Yeah...you know...I had never before thought that anyone had ever planned on putting her in that suitcase...but, the more that I thought about it...I changed my mind. It COULD be possible...they did have a home on Lake Michigan that they were planning on going to that day. What if, at first, they had planned on still going on the trip...but, taking that suitcase with them with JB's body inside...and dumping it there in Lake Michigan. They may have AT FIRST was going to dump the body, come back to Boulder, and THEN call 911 and tell them about the ransom letter. But, for whatever reason...JB wouldn't fit, or they just were so much in a panic, that they changed their mind. Its just a THEORY...IMO
If Burke didn't know about the crime...then...thats another reason for them to have changed their minds. How would they explain JB's absence? The Ramsey's could have even had an argument about whether to tell him or not....(that could explain why they had no interaction (according to their friends), after they called their friends over after finding the ransom note. One of them could have had the idea to put her in the suitcase, and dump her in Michigan...and the other one may have not wanted to, because then they would have had to let Burke in on it. Just my opinion.
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Athena
I agree with you re: the blanket and book having already been in the suitcase. How do you explain though that the blanket fibers were found on JBR?
To use the favorite line of IDIs in answer - were they the exact same fibers, or fibers consistant with the blanket?
It could have been used earlier in the night, it might have been the spot on which she was molested. Putting it in the suitcase would have gotten it out of the way. It also plays into the notion of an intruder planning to take her out in the suitcase.
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Coloradokares
They had a private plane and pilot at their 24 hour a day disposal really. John could have flown but used a pilot since the cataracts were affecting visual issues. He was an avid sailor of a sail boats and owned of course his own. Remember their private plane bore Beths name on it. As far out as it sounded at first I had shiver go through me as they had the means to do this. Not that this is more than speculation or theory. Just saying they did have the means.
That's the thing, would they want to risk the pilot finding out ? What if her odor were noticed (a real possibility on a small private plane) what if bodily fluids leaked?
Possibly it was an original plan, put aside when they realized it was too risky.
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
To use the favorite line of IDIs in answer - were they the exact same fibers, or fibers consistant with the blanket?
It could have been used earlier in the night, it might have been the spot on which she was molested. Putting it in the suitcase would have gotten it out of the way. It also plays into the notion of an intruder planning to take her out in the suitcase.
You have confused me (which is not hard to do). Are you RDI or IDI?
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Ames
You have confused me (which is not hard to do). Are you RDI or IDI?
LOL!
I'm saying putting the blanket and Dr. Suess book in the suitcase could have been an element of staging. Look how many IDIs have proposed that the intruder planned to take her out in the suitcase.
As long as we're speculating, it could be FW didn't see JB's body in the wine cellar because at that time she was in the suitcase. When JR went down the basement alone he could have removed her, and placed her where she could be found. There would be no reasonable explanation for someone checking to see if she was in the suitcase.
I have to hand it to you Ames, you've turned one of the IDI's favorite theories into an RDI theory.
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
<snipped>
Possibly it was an original plan, put aside when they realized it was too risky.
Yeah, thats what I am thinking. It would have been the perfect way to get rid of the body, though. IMO But, Burke would have had to either have known about it in the beginning, or had to have been told about it later, for that scenerio to have worked. Because, he would have wondered where his sister was...when they left for Michigan. I am sure that the thought had crossed their mind in the beginning, though. Thats why that suitcase was there, IMO. Why was there only ONE suitcase? If the suitcases were stored there, then there should have been more than that one. Wonder where the rest of their luggage was kept? IMO
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Ames
Yeah, thats what I am thinking. It would have been the perfect way to get rid of the body, though. IMO But, Burke would have had to either have known about it in the beginning, or had to have been told about it later, for that scenerio to have worked. Because, he would have wondered where his sister was...when they left for Michigan. I am sure that the thought had crossed their mind in the beginning, though. Thats why that suitcase was there...why was it only ONE suitcase. If the suitcases were stored there, then there should have been more than that one. Wonder where the rest of their luggage was kept? IMO
They could have just put her disappearance down to kidnapping. No reason to let Burke in on it.
It makes sense that they were originally trying to figure some way to dump the body somewhere. The Ransom note just doesn't fit with the body in the house. It doesn't fit any intruder theory, but it does fit with the Rs originally planning to dump her.
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 05:21 PM
Does anyone know the dimensions of the suitcase?
From the pics I'd never immagine stuffing a 6 year old in it.
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
LOL!
I'm saying putting the blanket and Dr. Suess book in the suitcase could have been an element of staging. Look how many IDIs have proposed that the intruder planned to take her out in the suitcase.
As long as we're speculating, it could be FW didn't see JB's body in the wine cellar because at that time she was in the suitcase. When JR went down the basement alone he could have removed her, and placed her where she could be found. There would be no reasonable explanation for someone checking to see if she was in the suitcase.
I have to hand it to you Ames, you've turned one of the IDI's favorite theories into an RDI theory.
WOW...I didn't even THINK of that..yeah, maybe she was IN the suitcase in the beginning...and thats why Fleet didn't see her. When John went missing..he was down there taking her out and placing her on the floor. Maybe he had second thoughts about taking her on that trip to Michigan and dumping her..because of the reasons that we listed...the odor...the pilot noticing....Burke having to find out, etc. SOOOO...he takes her out of the suitcase and places her on the floor. Brilliant deduction my dear Wally!!! IMO
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
They could have just put her disappearance down to kidnapping. No reason to let Burke in on it.
It makes sense that they were originally trying to figure some way to dump the body somewhere. The Ransom note just doesn't fit with the body in the house. It doesn't fit any intruder theory, but it does fit with the Rs originally planning to dump her.
They would have had to let Burke in on it..if they were planning to take her to Michigan to dump her, though. Because if they had of left on the trip for Michigan, without JB....Burke would have wondered where his sister was...unless he knew that she was in the suitcase. They may have even planned on dumping her somewhere in Colorado...after deciding that taking the body to Michigan wouldn't work. IMO
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Ames
WOW...I didn't even THINK of that..yeah, maybe she was IN the suitcase in the beginning...and thats why Fleet didn't see her. When John went missing..he was down there taking her out and placing her on the floor. Maybe he had second thoughts about taking her on that trip to Michigan and dumping her..because of the reasons that we listed...the odor...the pilot noticing....Burke having to find out, etc. SOOOO...he takes her out of the suitcase and places her on the floor. Brilliant deduction my dear Wally!!! IMO
I'm not making this part of my theory of the case - just throwing out ideas here. If she were in the suitcase it would explain why FW didn't see her, and what JR was doing down there all that time.
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
I'm not making this part of my theory of the case - just throwing out ideas here. If she were in the suitcase it would explain why FW didn't see her, and what JR was doing down there all that time.
Excellent IDEA...then. I agree..her body being in the suitcase would explain why FW didn't see her, and explain what J was doing down there. I know its just speculation...but...I think it works. IMO
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Ames
They would have had to let Burke in on it..if they were planning to take her to Michigan to dump her, though. Because if they had of left on the trip for Michigan, without JB....Burke would have wondered where his sister was...unless he knew that she was in the suitcase. They may have even planned on dumping her somewhere in Colorado...after deciding that taking the body to Michigan wouldn't work. IMO
What I'm saying is they would have had to go ahead with the kidnapping farce anyway. Not only would Burke be asking where JB was - so would a lot of adults. They would have needed to maintain the kidnapping fiction as an answer and that answer would have served just as well for Burke.
It does make sense that there was initially a plan to dispose of the body "hence" the ransom note. The kidnapping was needed to explain her disappearance.
Athena
10-28-2006, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
To use the favorite line of IDIs in answer - were they the exact same fibers, or fibers consistant with the blanket?
It could have been used earlier in the night, it might have been the spot on which she was molested. Putting it in the suitcase would have gotten it out of the way. It also plays into the notion of an intruder planning to take her out in the suitcase.
I am really not convinced that those red fibers were from Patsy's jacket. I've posted the interview before so not posting again. But her jacket was red, black and gray checked. The fibers on the duct tape were first reported as being brown and then all of a sudden became red. The fibers in JBR's crotch area were originally reported as dark or blue fibers and then all of a sudden became black. Sorry but that is way to suspicous of someone fishing trying to make the evidence fit what they believed to be the crime and unfortunately not the first time it's ever been done.
In addition to the fibers on the duct tape both JR and FW touched that duct tape. Both were in the basement prior to JBR's body being found. It could have been secondary transfer. When the body was moved -- no telling where fibers could have ended up. One of the sad points in this case was that the crime scene was totally contaminated. If the Ramseys committed this crime the BPD messed this case up and then in an attempt to recover from their f-up; they just made it worse.
What about the brown fibers and animal hairs found and not sourced? They were looking for brown cotton gloves -- they must have had a reason. JMO
PS: I have always believed OJ got away with murder because the LA Police tried to frame a guilty man and f'd up. JMO
nuisanceposter
10-28-2006, 05:52 PM
The state of the body in rigor mortis tells you JonBenet wasn't in the suitcase, guys, or else she'd have been in a different pose. Whenever she had been before JR found her, she had to have been laid out supine.
Athena
10-28-2006, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by nuisanceposter
The state of the body in rigor mortis tells you JonBenet wasn't in the suitcase, guys, or else she'd have been in a different pose. Whenever she had been before JR found her, she had to have been laid out supine.
Not true IMO. When they tried to put her in it she didn't fit and just didn't leave her or realized they could get in but couldn't get out with the suitcase with her body. It takes time for rigor mortis to set in and does not occur immediately. jmo
nuisanceposter
10-28-2006, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Athena
Not true IMO. When they tried to put her in it she didn't fit and just didn't leave her or realized they could get in but couldn't get out with the suitcase with her body. It takes time for rigor mortis to set in and does not occur immediately. jmo
There's no proof she was ever in the suitcase at all. Fibers that may have been from the duvet cover in the suitcase possibly being on JonBenet does not equal her having been in the suitcase and taken out. I think saying she had been in the suitcase (or they tried to put her in it) without more concrete proof is pushing it.
When do you think she was killed? When do you think she entered a state of rigor mortis? What time of day do you think she ended up frozen in that pose? I'm pretty sure that if she had been in that suitcase when FW looked in the room and JR moved her out of it at 10 a.m., then she would have been in rigor mortis in the fetal position.
I'll ask again - how do we know when the suitcase was put there? What proof is there that it was moved to where it was found on 12/26? How do we know that suitcase hadn't been sitting there for a good month or so before it was found where it was while searching for JonBenet?
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
What I'm saying is they would have had to go ahead with the kidnapping farce anyway. Not only would Burke be asking where JB was - so would a lot of adults. They would have needed to maintain the kidnapping fiction as an answer and that answer would have served just as well for Burke.
It does make sense that there was initially a plan to dispose of the body "hence" the ransom note. The kidnapping was needed to explain her disappearance.
I don't think that you get what I am saying...yes, I know that they had to make it look like a kidnapping...but, I am saying that IF John and Patsy had intended to take the suitcase with JB body in it to MICHIGAN...while on their "family vacation", then Burke would have had to have been giving a reason as to why JB wasn't with them. They couldn't have told him that she had been kidnapped...and that they had planned on going to Michigan anyway....even though she had been kidnapped. They would have had to make something up, or told him the truth...went to Michigan, dumped the body...came back to Colorado and then called 911 to tell about the ransom note that they had "found". BUT...if they had planned on disposing of the body in COLORADO..then Burke wouldn't have had to have known anything..except that it was a "kidnapping". IMO
Originally posted by nuisanceposter
There's no proof she was ever in the suitcase at all. Fibers that may have been from the duvet cover in the suitcase possibly being on JonBenet does not equal her having been in the suitcase and taken out. I think saying she had been in the suitcase (or they tried to put her in it) without more concrete proof is pushing it.
When do you think she was killed? When do you think she entered a state of rigor mortis? What time of day do you think she ended up frozen in that pose? I'm pretty sure that if she had been in that suitcase when FW looked in the room and JR moved her out of it at 10 a.m., then she would have been in rigor mortis in the fetal position.
I'll ask again - how do we know when the suitcase was put there? What proof is there that it was moved to where it was found on 12/26? How do we know that suitcase hadn't been sitting there for a good month or so before it was found where it was while searching for JonBenet?
This was just speculation of course. I would be interested to know where the rest of the luggage was kept. We always keep ours together, as I would imagine that everybody usually does. I can't imagine why that ONE suitcase would be in that room. Where was the REST of their luggage?...You know that they had to have more than ONE piece of luggage...with the four of them, and with all of Patsy and JB's clothes. IMO
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Ames
I don't think that you get what I am saying...yes, I know that they had to make it look like a kidnapping...but, I am saying that IF John and Patsy had intended to take the suitcase with JB body in it to MICHIGAN...while on their "family vacation", then Burke would have had to have been giving a reason as to why JB wasn't with them.
Because she was kidnapped.
They couldn't have told him that she had been kidnapped...and that they had planned on going to Michigan anyway....even though she had been kidnapped. They would have had to make something up, or told him the truth...went to Michigan, dumped the body...came back to Colorado and then called 911 to tell about the ransom note that they had "found". BUT...if they had planned on disposing of the body in COLORADO..then Burke wouldn't have had to have known anything..except that it was a "kidnapping". IMO
They wouldn't have gone to MI, and then come back to call 911. They'd have had to go through the kidnapping farce in CO first.
WallyCleaver
10-28-2006, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by nuisanceposter
There's no proof she was ever in the suitcase at all. Fibers that may have been from the duvet cover in the suitcase possibly being on JonBenet does not equal her having been in the suitcase and taken out. I think saying she had been in the suitcase (or they tried to put her in it) without more concrete proof is pushing it.
When do you think she was killed? When do you think she entered a state of rigor mortis? What time of day do you think she ended up frozen in that pose? I'm pretty sure that if she had been in that suitcase when FW looked in the room and JR moved her out of it at 10 a.m., then she would have been in rigor mortis in the fetal position.
I'll ask again - how do we know when the suitcase was put there? What proof is there that it was moved to where it was found on 12/26? How do we know that suitcase hadn't been sitting there for a good month or so before it was found where it was while searching for JonBenet?
No, we don't know she was in the suitcase. It's just speculation. If I had to guess, I'd say no.
Since time of death isn't determined with any precission, neither is the onset of rigormortis.
We don't know when the suitcase was put there.
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
Because she was kidnapped.
They wouldn't have gone to MI, and then come back to call 911. They'd have had to go through the kidnapping farce in CO first.
I know....but, all I am saying is that it would have been a little suspicious, IF they had of went through the kidnapping farce in CO first....and THEN headed to Michigan. People would have said..."Gee..their child was just kidnapped..and they went ahead with their plans for a family vacation, anyway....how odd". So, you are saying that they would have gone through the kidnapping farce FIRST in CO....and THEN went on to Michigan to dispose of the body? I am on your side...I am just trying to figure out what you meant. IMO
breezy1234
10-28-2006, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Ames
WOW...I didn't even THINK of that..yeah, maybe she was IN the suitcase in the beginning...and thats why Fleet didn't see her. When John went missing..he was down there taking her out and placing her on the floor. Maybe he had second thoughts about taking her on that trip to Michigan and dumping her..because of the reasons that we listed...the odor...the pilot noticing....Burke having to find out, etc. SOOOO...he takes her out of the suitcase and places her on the floor. Brilliant deduction my dear Wally!!! IMO
:lol: I guess you are forgetting rigor mortis huh? Remember her body was found stretched out with arms above her head? It wasn't a trunk, it was a suitcase. Don't you think the pilot would have "noticed" JonBenet was not with the family as well? Please don't give up your day job to become a detective, you would starve.
Originally posted by breezy1234
:lol: I guess you are forgetting rigor mortis huh? Remember her body was found stretched out with arms above her head? It wasn't a trunk, it was a suitcase. Don't you think the pilot would have "noticed" JonBenet was not with the family as well? Please don't give up your day job to become a detective, you would starve.
Okay, first of all...you with your laughing smiley...the death of a little girl is FUNNY to you??? Well, it isn't to me. Second of all...I SAID that that scenerio is JUST a SPECULATION...do you know what that word means? Obviously not! John COULD have thought, in the beginning, that he could pull it off. He COULD have put her in the suitcase, and then taken her out, after having second thoughts.... before Fleet even came over to the house. Fleet not seeing her, because she was in the suitcase, the first time that he looked into the room, was NOT my speculation...it was someone elses. And if you are trying to act like a polite poster that doesn't use hateful comments....then don't quit YOUR day job. IMO
Athena
10-28-2006, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by nuisanceposter
There's no proof she was ever in the suitcase at all. Fibers that may have been from the duvet cover in the suitcase possibly being on JonBenet does not equal her having been in the suitcase and taken out. I think saying she had been in the suitcase (or they tried to put her in it) without more concrete proof is pushing it.
When do you think she was killed? When do you think she entered a state of rigor mortis? What time of day do you think she ended up frozen in that pose? I'm pretty sure that if she had been in that suitcase when FW looked in the room and JR moved her out of it at 10 a.m., then she would have been in rigor mortis in the fetal position.
I'll ask again - how do we know when the suitcase was put there? What proof is there that it was moved to where it was found on 12/26? How do we know that suitcase hadn't been sitting there for a good month or so before it was found where it was while searching for JonBenet?
Whoa - sorry nuisance. Didn't mean to be misleading. Putting JBR in the suitcase is purely speculation. When I talked about her being placed in the suitcase I meant it is possible someone tried to put her in there and she wouldn't fit or they couldn't figure a way to get her out so they removed her thus the fibers from the blanket -- not leave her in there for any length of time. I certainly did not mean to imply that she had been in there for longer than a few minutes and long before rigor mortis would have set in.
Re: when the suitcase was put there. According to the interview transcript, JR said that the suitcase belonged to his ex-wife and one of the older kids had brought it in on one of his visits and left in a hall upstairs and months before JR claims he took it downstairs and put it in the hall area.
12 And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have
13 been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I
14 remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all
15 the way back there and put it against the window.
16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's talk about suitcases a
17 little bit as long as your talking about it now.
18 It was right up against the wall?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
20 LOU SMIT: And you said you had taken that
21 down. When did you?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: Months before, probably, months
23 before, two months before. It was one of these big
24 Samsonite suitcases that, I don't know, the kids
25 used it to bring some clothes home, the older
0155
1 kids. Sometimes it ended up at our house. I don't
2 think it was our suitcase. It seemed to belong to
3 Cindy Johnson, my ex-wife.
4 But it was here for a while. It was up in the
5 laundry room. I remember taking it downstairs to
6 clean up. And I think I just kind of sat it in
7 this room here.
8 LOU SMIT: That would be in that hall?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in the landing in the hall
10 area.
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm
Originally posted by breezy1234
<snipped>
Don't you think the pilot would have "noticed" JonBenet was not with the family as well? Please don't give up your day job to become a detective, you would starve.
As I have said BEFORE...that John putting her in the suitcase is only speculation. He could have tried to put her in, and she didn't fit....so, he decided that it wasn't quite such a good idea afterall. As far as the pilot goes..and him noticing that JB was not with them...he may have been thinking of trying to pilot the plane himself....he had a pilots license...but BAD eyesight....thats the reason that he hired the other pilot in the first place. But, he may have thought that he could of piloted that plane, if it meant being able to dispose of JB's body, in Lake Michigan. Maybe his eyesight wasn't SO bad that he couldn't at least try to pilot the plane, he may have thought that he could do it. THIS IS PURELY SPECULATION! IMO
breezy1234
10-29-2006, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Ames
As I have said BEFORE...that John putting her in the suitcase is only speculation. He could have tried to put her in, and she didn't fit....so, he decided that it wasn't quite such a good idea afterall. As far as the pilot goes..and him noticing that JB was not with them...he may have been thinking of trying to pilot the plane himself....he had a pilots license...but BAD eyesight....thats the reason that he hired the other pilot in the first place. But, he may have thought that he could of piloted that plane, if it meant being able to dispose of JB's body, in Lake Michigan. Maybe his eyesight wasn't SO bad that he couldn't at least try to pilot the plane, he may have thought that he could do it. THIS IS PURELY SPECULATION! IMO
No I do NOT think the murder of a young child is funny but I sure do think the silly speculation by you IS funny. Yes I realize it is speculation but why on earth waste time on such silly thoughts? Like I said many times here. Could haves, maybes and possiblities are a waste of time and do nothing beside victimize the victims again. These people lost a very young daughter in the worst posssible way and many of you here are "speculating" with thoughts that make no sense IMO. Put yourself in their shoes and ask yourself how you would feel if people were "speculating" about YOU putting your daughter in a suitcase and dumping her in Lake Michigan after killing her based on NO evidence.
:rolleyes:
WallyCleaver
10-29-2006, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Ames
I know....but, all I am saying is that it would have been a little suspicious, IF they had of went through the kidnapping farce in CO first....and THEN headed to Michigan. People would have said..."Gee..their child was just kidnapped..and they went ahead with their plans for a family vacation, anyway....how odd". So, you are saying that they would have gone through the kidnapping farce FIRST in CO....and THEN went on to Michigan to dispose of the body? I am on your side...I am just trying to figure out what you meant. IMO
Yes, that's what I'm saying. If it was ever part of the plan to put her in the suitcase and take her to dump in lake MI, they'd pretty much have to go through the kidnapping farce in CO first.
JR was trying to arrange a flight to Atlanta on the 26th, so he might have -at some point during the night- thought of flying to MI after calling the police and waiting for the never to come ransom call. I'm not sure the R's realized at first that the police were going to hang around all day.
It would have looked worse to go to MI, then come back w/o JB. They could lie for a while and say she was staying with relatives in MI, but that will only work for so long.
Of course they may have thought of taking the rasnom note to MI too, and staging the whole kidnapping there. They might have realized that it was risky to carry the body in the plane, and that might have forced a change in plan.
It's useful to speculate beause it gets us looking at angles we weren't looking at before. Even when the speculation runs into logical problems, it's still a useful exercise - we see what could or couldn't (likely or unlikely) happen.
nuisanceposter makes a good point about rigor mortis. But because we don't know the time of death, we really don't know the onset of rigor mortis.
One thing your theory gets us thinking about is what plans the Rs might have had for getting rid of the body. If you recall docg's theory, he says JR was planning to dump it when he went to "deliver" the ransom. He thinks PR was ignorant of the killing and cover up, and it was a fluke that the police were called. That may or may not be the case, but it makes sense that if they wrote a fake RN they were planing to dump the body.
MyrDawn
10-29-2006, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by Ames
Yep...I think that SOMEONE could have put her in that suitcase (RDI theory, JOHN....IDI theory, intruder)....she didn't fit, so they took her out...IMO
That's what I think, too...in my case, the intruder.
MOO
MyrDawn
10-29-2006, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Ames
WOW...I didn't even THINK of that..yeah, maybe she was IN the suitcase in the beginning...and thats why Fleet didn't see her. When John went missing..he was down there taking her out and placing her on the floor. Maybe he had second thoughts about taking her on that trip to Michigan and dumping her..because of the reasons that we listed...the odor...the pilot noticing....Burke having to find out, etc. SOOOO...he takes her out of the suitcase and places her on the floor. Brilliant deduction my dear Wally!!! IMO
Fleet surely would have wondered about the heaviness of the suitcase when he moved it, and surely mentioned it when he came back upstairs, if JonBenet's 45 pound body was inside.
And, I don't think John would have taken her body out of the suitcase and moved it to the wine cellar with all those people, including the police in the house. He'd have had to walk right past the basement stairs to get her there. Why wouldn't he have just left her body in the suitcase and wait until every left to move it?
MOO
Originally posted by breezy1234
No I do NOT think the murder of a young child is funny but I sure do think the silly speculation by you IS funny. Yes I realize it is speculation but why on earth waste time on such silly thoughts? Like I said many times here. Could haves, maybes and possiblities are a waste of time and do nothing beside victimize the victims again. These people lost a very young daughter in the worst posssible way and many of you here are "speculating" with thoughts that make no sense IMO. Put yourself in their shoes and ask yourself how you would feel if people were "speculating" about YOU putting your daughter in a suitcase and dumping her in Lake Michigan after killing her based on NO evidence.
:rolleyes:
WHATEVER...I have just as much right to my opinion as YOU do. :rolleyes: If you don't like what I have to say...then stay off of my THREAD!!!
Originally posted by WallyCleaver
Yes, that's what I'm saying. If it was ever part of the plan to put her in the suitcase and take her to dump in lake MI, they'd pretty much have to go through the kidnapping farce in CO first.
JR was trying to arrange a flight to Atlanta on the 26th, so he might have -at some point during the night- thought of flying to MI after calling the police and waiting for the never to come ransom call. I'm not sure the R's realized at first that the police were going to hang around all day.
It would have looked worse to go to MI, then come back w/o JB. They could lie for a while and say she was staying with relatives in MI, but that will only work for so long.
Of course they may have thought of taking the rasnom note to MI too, and staging the whole kidnapping there. They might have realized that it was risky to carry the body in the plane, and that might have forced a change in plan.
It's useful to speculate beause it gets us looking at angles we weren't looking at before. Even when the speculation runs into logical problems, it's still a useful exercise - we see what could or couldn't (likely or unlikely) happen.
nuisanceposter makes a good point about rigor mortis. But because we don't know the time of death, we really don't know the onset of rigor mortis.
One thing your theory gets us thinking about is what plans the Rs might have had for getting rid of the body. If you recall docg's theory, he says JR was planning to dump it when he went to "deliver" the ransom. He thinks PR was ignorant of the killing and cover up, and it was a fluke that the police were called. That may or may not be the case, but it makes sense that if they wrote a fake RN they were planing to dump the body.
Thanks for coming to my defense in support of my SPECULATION. I see what you are saying about the kidnapping plot. Yeah, they could have planned, IN THE BEGINNING, to hatch the whole thing in Michigan. OR if not there, if Patsy didn't know about it, according to dogc....John could have planned on trying to put her in the suitcase and dumping it...so that Patsy wouldn't see the body. Why is it that everybody ELSE on these boards can speculate, but when I do it...I get bashed? OH WELL....I don't know these people, so I don't care. ANYWAY...I do believe that in the beginning John had thoughts about putting her in the suitcase and dumping it, whether in CO...or Michigan, and then abandoned his plans for whatver reason. IMO
Originally posted by breezy1234
<snipped>
Could haves, maybes and possiblities are a waste of time and do nothing beside victimize the victims again. These people lost a very young daughter in the worst posssible way and many of you here are "speculating" with thoughts that make no sense IMO. Put yourself in their shoes and ask yourself how you would feel if people were "speculating" about YOU putting your daughter in a suitcase and dumping her in Lake Michigan after killing her based on NO evidence.
:rolleyes:
I hate to be the one to break the news to you breezy...but, a huge percentage of these boards are nothing but speculation. NOBODY...and I mean NOBODY...except for MAYBE the Ramseys, an INTRUDER, or GOD...knows what happened that night. So, all we have to go on, is what little evidence there is, interviews...and a whole lot of speculation. IMO
Originally posted by MyrDawn
Fleet surely would have wondered about the heaviness of the suitcase when he moved it, and surely mentioned it when he came back upstairs, if JonBenet's 45 pound body was inside.
And, I don't think John would have taken her body out of the suitcase and moved it to the wine cellar with all those people, including the police in the house. He'd have had to walk right past the basement stairs to get her there. Why wouldn't he have just left her body in the suitcase and wait until every left to move it?
MOO
Refresh my memory, did Fleet move the suitcase the first time he went down to search (when he said that he didn't see JB's body)? Didn't he just peek into the room the first time around, didn't see anything...and left? I am not clear on that part. TIA..
rashomon
10-29-2006, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Ames
OR if not there, if Patsy didn't know about it, according to dogc....John could have planned on trying to put her in the suitcase and dumping it...so that Patsy wouldn't see the body. Why is it that everybody ELSE on these boards can speculate, but when I do it...I get bashed? OH WELL....I don't know these people, so I don't care. ANYWAY...I do believe that in the beginning John had thoughts about putting her in the suitcase and dumping it, whether in CO...or Michigan, and then abandoned his plans for whatver reason. IMO
But since Patsy obviously wrote the ransom note, how could she (according to poster dogc) not have known about it?
Here is a link where Patsy's handwriting is compared to the rasnom note. The similarities are striking. If this doesn't do it, nothing will:
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
Re disposing of the body: I think the Ramseys indeed planned to dump JB's body somewhere outside, but taking her to Michigan would only have complicated things imo.
I believe they wanted to do it on that same night, which is why they wrote the ransom note.
But then they did not dare to do it, probably for fear of being seen, since many people stay up late at Christmas.
Originally posted by rashomon
But since Patsy obviously wrote the ransom note, how could she not have known about it.
Here is a link where patsy's handwriting is compared to the rasnom note. The similarities are striking : if tis doesn't do it,, nothing will:
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
Re disposing of the body: I think the Ramseys planned to dump JB's body somewhere outside, but taking her to Michigan would only have complicated things imo.
I believe they wanted to do it on that same night, which is why they wrote the ransom note.
But then they did not dare to do it, probably for fear of being seen, since many people stay up late at Christmas.
Yes, I too believe that Patsy wrote that ransom letter, and that she was part of the cover up. I was just stating that John putting JB in the suitcase, could have been a way to get rid of her without Patsy seeing the body....that would fit docg's theory. I agree with you ...I DO think that the thought had crossed their mind though, to try and get rid of the body in Michigan...but then they bypassed that thought...and thought about trying to get rid of the body there in CO somewhere. But, if they had of gotten the body somehow...and dumped it into lake Michigan...I do not believe that the body would have ever been found. Thats why, IN MY OPINION...that was probably their first thought. Maybe JB wouldn't fit into the suitcase, so they nixed that idea. WHO KNOWS!? IMO
Originally posted by rashomon
But since Patsy obviously wrote the ransom note, how could she (according to poster dogc) not have known about it?
Here is a link where Patsy's handwriting is compared to the rasnom note. The similarities are striking. If this doesn't do it, nothing will:
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
<snipped>
Hey, thanks for posting this...its the first time, believe it or not, that I have ever seen the comparisons between Patsy's handwriting and the ransom letter. I found it quite odd that in alot of Patsy's samples...she wrote the lower case a, like we were all taught in school..kind of a circle with a line on the right. I noticed that right off...when comparing the sample to the note. But, then she started writing the a's just like in the ransom letter....(a). Did you notice that? I don't know if the words that she had to write, went in the same order as the ransom note, do you? If so...I just thought that it was weird, that her lower case a's changed, about half way through. It was almost like, she KNEW that in the ransom letter...that the a's looked like this...a, and so she tried to disquise it at first, by writing the lower case a's, by drawing sort of a circle, with a line on the right side of it. Do you see what I am talking about? If not...go back and compare all of the a's in the ransom note, to Patsy's handwriting...you will notice about have way through...they change to a differernt STYLE of A. I know this is confusing...check it out, and you will see what I mean. IMO
Didn't make it in time to edit...darn it. I am WAY to slow at this. What I wanted to add is that, after going back and re-reading my post, OF COURSE Patsy knew that the lower case A's looked like this...(a)...in the ransom note, because she had it to go by when writing her sample. My question is, why did she start out with her lower case A's being a different style, and then half way though, change to using the (a) style....like on a computer or typewriter..not the style that we learned in school...(she started out with that style though....and then changed it). My thought is that, she was DELIBERATELY trying to disquise her lower case A's, to make the experts think that she couldn't have possibly have written the ransom note, because the way the author wrote their lower case A's, and the way that she wrote hers, were different, but then she slipped up...and started making the lower case A's the same way as in the ransom note...(a). At first, when I saw the comparisons...I thought that the writing looked very similiar, but then I thought...WELL...the style of lower case A's are different, though....why is that? But, then half way through the document... the style of her lower case A changed to the same as the ransom note (a). Wonder why she changed it?
Check it out again....
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
MyrDawn
10-29-2006, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Ames
Refresh my memory, did Fleet move the suitcase the first time he went down to search (when he said that he didn't see JB's body)? Didn't he just peek into the room the first time around, didn't see anything...and left? I am not clear on that part. TIA..
I've always heard he said he moved it the first time he was in the basement, a few minutes after he got to their house that morning, when he also put the piece of glass on top of it. That's what Steve Thomas said in the interview a few weeks ago with CC, too, although ST said he "may" moved it then in that interview.
Originally posted by MyrDawn
I've always heard he said he moved it the first time he was in the basement, a few minutes after he got to their house that morning, when he also put the piece of glass on top of it. That's what Steve Thomas said in the interview a few weeks ago with CC, too, although ST said he "may" moved it then in that interview.
There are just so many unanswered questions in this case, aren't there? So many inconsistancies....who knows WHAT to believe. IMO
MyrDawn
10-29-2006, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Ames
There are just so many unanswered questions in this case, aren't there? So many inconsistancies....who knows WHAT to believe. IMO
Boy, that's the truth!
Originally posted by MyrDawn
Boy, that's the truth!
I don't know about you...but, this case almost makes me bonkers trying to fit the puzzle pieces together. I spend WAY too much time on these message boards...my five year old has to beg me to get off of the computer, so that I can play with her. Now THATS sad!! This case needs to be solved, so that I can get back to my life, again. LOL
MyrDawn
10-29-2006, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Ames
I don't know about you...but, this case almost makes me bonkers trying to fit the puzzle pieces together. I spend WAY too much time on these message boards...my five year old has to beg me to get off of the computer, so that I can play with her. Now THATS sad!! This case needs to be solved, so that I can get back to my life, again. LOL
This case makes me bonkers, too. I'll admit, I waver a lot. Right now I'm about 80% sure an intruder killed JonBenet, but I've been 80% the other way, too. But, it seems the more I learn, the more I lean towards an intruder.
My daughter, who'll be 4 in December, loves to play with me, too. I use half the table this computer is on so we can play while I'm on the boards. Her tea set is here, and we color, and play lots of games. Then she wants to go outside...and I don't have a laptop. LOL
Athena
10-29-2006, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Ames
Refresh my memory, did Fleet move the suitcase the first time he went down to search (when he said that he didn't see JB's body)? Didn't he just peek into the room the first time around, didn't see anything...and left? I am not clear on that part. TIA..
Fleet went down into the basement 15 minutes after he arrived at the Ramseys (between 6:00 - 6:30AM). By his own admission, he moved the suitcase, picked up broken glass on the floor and placed it on the sill and looked in the wine cellar. Now 10 years later via interview with Greta, ST is now saying he may have even opened up the window and according to other posters said on CC FW DID open the window (didn't see CC). Will say JMO because I've posted this info with links before. JMO
Originally posted by MyrDawn
This case makes me bonkers, too. I'll admit, I waver a lot. Right now I'm about 80% sure an intruder killed JonBenet, but I've been 80% the other way, too. But, it seems the more I learn, the more I lean towards an intruder.
My daughter, who'll be 4 in December, loves to play with me, too. I use half the table this computer is on so we can play while I'm on the boards. Her tea set is here, and we color, and play lots of games. Then she wants to go outside...and I don't have a laptop. LOL
I have never thought that an intruder did it, even ten years ago...I have always that a RDI. Which one? I have NO clue...
Thanks for the tip about playtime, while posting. I will give that one a try....thats a good idea. My five year old says..."MOM...I want to play with you...but noooooo....you are clacking away on that stupid computer". And then she goes into that whole spill about me not caring about her, trying to make me feel guilty. It works...and then I promise her and myself that I will not get back on...and low and behold...I get back on the next day. Its like an addiction or something. Maybe I need therapy. LOL
Originally posted by Athena
Fleet went down into the basement 15 minutes after he arrived at the Ramseys (between 6:00 - 6:30AM). By his own admission, he moved the suitcase, picked up broken glass on the floor and placed it on the sill and looked in the wine cellar. Now 10 years later via interview with Greta, ST is now saying he may have even opened up the window and according to other posters said on CC FW DID open the window (didn't see CC). Will say JMO because I've posted this info with links before. JMO
Thanks Athena...I'm sorry that you have already posted this. I am sure that I read it, but doggone it...I read so much about this case...that sometimes I can't keep things straight. Thanks again for posting it. I would like to know WHY Fleet felt the need to open that window....if he did. Thats pretty weird.
FurthurBB
11-01-2006, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Ames
As I have said BEFORE...that John putting her in the suitcase is only speculation. He could have tried to put her in, and she didn't fit....so, he decided that it wasn't quite such a good idea afterall. As far as the pilot goes..and him noticing that JB was not with them...he may have been thinking of trying to pilot the plane himself....he had a pilots license...but BAD eyesight....thats the reason that he hired the other pilot in the first place. But, he may have thought that he could of piloted that plane, if it meant being able to dispose of JB's body, in Lake Michigan. Maybe his eyesight wasn't SO bad that he couldn't at least try to pilot the plane, he may have thought that he could do it. THIS IS PURELY SPECULATION! IMO
I don't think so. Taking her to Michigan would have added all kind of risk to an already ricky situation. Not to mention, if her body had been found in Michigan, they would have definitely gone to jail. IMO
Originally posted by FurthurBB
I don't think so. Taking her to Michigan would have added all kind of risk to an already ricky situation. Not to mention, if her body had been found in Michigan, they would have definitely gone to jail. IMO
True...but, he could have been so frantic...that he wasn't thinking clearly. He could have put her in there, and either she didn't fit, or he thought that it was too risky, and he took her out. I came to this speculation when I read that some of the fibers from the blanket in the suitcase were found on her body....then again...I don't even know how TRUE that is. There is so much misinformation floating around about this case, that it is UNREAL.
IMO
FurthurBB
11-01-2006, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by rashomon
But since Patsy obviously wrote the ransom note, how could she (according to poster dogc) not have known about it?
Here is a link where Patsy's handwriting is compared to the rasnom note. The similarities are striking. If this doesn't do it, nothing will:
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
Re disposing of the body: I think the Ramseys indeed planned to dump JB's body somewhere outside, but taking her to Michigan would only have complicated things imo.
I believe they wanted to do it on that same night, which is why they wrote the ransom note.
But then they did not dare to do it, probably for fear of being seen, since many people stay up late at Christmas.
I do not like the analysis on that site. I have read ones that were written for trials and that one is not in even in the same ballpark. Also, if PR wrote the note then I believe she and she alone killed JBR and covered everything up herself. As I have said before if RDI is correct, only one parent was involved. When you bring both in is when nothing makes any sense anymore. IMO
FurthurBB
11-01-2006, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Ames
Didn't make it in time to edit...darn it. I am WAY to slow at this. What I wanted to add is that, after going back and re-reading my post, OF COURSE Patsy knew that the lower case A's looked like this...(a)...in the ransom note, because she had it to go by when writing her sample. My question is, why did she start out with her lower case A's being a different style, and then half way though, change to using the (a) style....like on a computer or typewriter..not the style that we learned in school...(she started out with that style though....and then changed it). My thought is that, she was DELIBERATELY trying to disquise her lower case A's, to make the experts think that she couldn't have possibly have written the ransom note, because the way the author wrote their lower case A's, and the way that she wrote hers, were different, but then she slipped up...and started making the lower case A's the same way as in the ransom note...(a). At first, when I saw the comparisons...I thought that the writing looked very similiar, but then I thought...WELL...the style of lower case A's are different, though....why is that? But, then half way through the document... the style of her lower case A changed to the same as the ransom note (a). Wonder why she changed it?
Check it out again....
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
They probably asked her to make an a that way. I am surprized there are no t's like the ransome not either. This is the first time I have actually seen this exact one. When I saw the post with this link earlier I thought it was to that stupid one that goes on and on and is obviously amatuer. Still there are only a couple of things that make me wonder. The line of the connecting N and the curvature to her lower case i's and upper case I's. Other than that, everytime I write by hand I write 1/2 print 1/2 cursive just like she does and I have noticed from teaching a class at the university that many other people do also.
Originally posted by FurthurBB
They probably asked her to make an a that way. I am surprized there are no t's like the ransome not either. This is the first time I have actually seen this exact one. When I saw the post with this link earlier I thought it was to that stupid one that goes on and on and is obviously amatuer. Still there are only a couple of things that make me wonder. The line of the connecting N and the curvature to her lower case i's and upper case I's. Other than that, everytime I write by hand I write 1/2 print 1/2 cursive just like she does and I have noticed from teaching a class at the university that many other people do also.
Maybe this is being petty...but, what about her comma's versus the ones in the ransom note...they don't curve to the left (,)...but, they BOTH curve to the right and then flip up. Go back to that site, and check it out....I thought that was odd too. And the way that she connects some letters, but doesn't connect others.
FurthurBB
11-01-2006, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Ames
Maybe this is being petty...but, what about her comma's versus the ones in the ransom note...they don't curve to the left (,)...but, they BOTH curve to the right and then flip up. Go back to that site, and check it out....I thought that was odd too. And the way that she connects some letters, but doesn't connect others.
I do not know about the comma. Mine does not cure at all. It is always straight. Like I said before ... I write 1/2 in cursive and 1/2 in print so I connect some letter sometimes and others other times. There is no rhyme or reason to it. The graduate students I teach at the university do it also. I was just looking at some tests I was grading to see how many do it. Almost every single female does it and the males run their letters together in general. The males also have a strange way of starting their letters with lines attached. I am not sure what that is. Like they are thinking with the pen down or something.
FurthurBB
11-01-2006, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Ames
Maybe this is being petty...but, what about her comma's versus the ones in the ransom note...they don't curve to the left (,)...but, they BOTH curve to the right and then flip up. Go back to that site, and check it out....I thought that was odd too. And the way that she connects some letters, but doesn't connect others.
I went back and looked at it. I will add the comma to my list of things that are similar. The curved i's & I's the n with a line that connects it to the next letter and the very strange comma.
Originally posted by FurthurBB
I do not know about the comma. Mine does not cure at all. It is always straight. Like I said before ... I write 1/2 in cursive and 1/2 in print so I connect some letter sometimes and others other times. There is no rhyme or reason to it. The graduate students I teach at the university do it also. I was just looking at some tests I was grading to see how many do it. Almost every single female does it and the males run their letters together in general. The males also have a strange way of starting their letters with lines attached. I am not sure what that is. Like they are thinking with the pen down or something.
Darn it...I posted this..but lost the post....this STUPID COMPUTER is driving me crazy.
OKAY...when Patsy was asked to give a handwriting sample...I assume that she didn't have the ransom note in front of her, because that would defeat the purpose. Because, IF she had of been the author of the note, and the note was in front of her...then of COURSE she would alter her handwriting. SO...it makes sense that the note was dictated to her and she re-wrote it. It is my understanding that this is the way that it is done...(which makes sense). Anyway..I ALSO write the same way that you described...half cursive and half print....BUT.....the letter's that connected in the ransom note...AND Patsy's example...were the SAME letters. What are the chances of that. AND you just said in your post that when you were grading your papers, that you noticed that almost ALL FEMALES do it....so...to me...thats just another reason to look at Patsy as the author of the ransom note...she IS FEMALE afterall. IMO I am anxious to see what you post regarding the fact that she probably wasn't even given the ransom note to look at when she gave her example...but STILL the same letters were connected...what do you make of that?
FurthurBB
11-01-2006, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Ames
Darn it...I posted this..but lost the post....this STUPID COMPUTER is driving me crazy.
OKAY...when Patsy was asked to give a handwriting sample...I assume that she didn't have the ransom note in front of her, because that would defeat the purpose. Because, IF she had of been the author of the note, and the note was in front of her...then of COURSE she would alter her handwriting. SO...it makes sense that the note was dictated to her and she re-wrote it. It is my understanding that this is the way that it is done...(which makes sense). Anyway..I ALSO write the same way that you described...half cursive and half print....BUT.....the letter's that connected in the ransom note...AND Patsy's example...were the SAME letters. What are the chances of that. AND you just said in your post that when you were grading your papers, that you noticed that almost ALL FEMALES do it....so...to me...thats just another reason to look at Patsy as the author of the ransom note...she IS FEMALE afterall. IMO I am anxious to see what you post regarding the fact that she probably wasn't even given the ransom note to look at when she gave her example...but STILL the same letters were connected...what do you make of that?
Well, in the sample I saw they only showed us that which is similar. Unless I am mistaken, they did not show us much of what was different. Except some of the words they were showing similarity with you could see a lot of differences also. I also said about the test that the males run their letters together in general and that kind of looked like the ransome not more than the 1/2 cursive 1/2 print style but, I am not sure.
Originally posted by FurthurBB
I went back and looked at it. I will add the comma to my list of things that are similar. The curved i's & I's the n with a line that connects it to the next letter and the very strange comma.
I am going to go back and look at the i's and I's....and the n with the side that connects to the next letter....I don't remember what they look like. Thanks!
Originally posted by FurthurBB
I went back and looked at it. I will add the comma to my list of things that are similar. The curved i's & I's the n with a line that connects it to the next letter and the very strange comma.
Look at how the lower case t's have a hook at the bottom on the left side. It looks almost like a v.....check it out....I know that there were alot of differences too...BUT...she WAS in the house when the murder took place...and if her handwriting even looks remotely similiar to the ransom note...she SHOULD have been arrested.
FurthurBB
11-01-2006, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Ames
Look at how the lower case t's have a hook at the bottom on the left side. It looks almost like a v.....check it out....I know that there were alot of differences too...BUT...she WAS in the house when the murder took place...and if her handwriting even looks remotely similiar to the ransom note...she SHOULD have been arrested.
I am not convinced on the one because her t with the hook is connecting and the t with the hook in the ransome note was begining. There are actually a lot of places just in the words they showed where the ransome note connects letters that she did not. She always seemed to connect r's, t' e's ... things like that. The ransome note words are jumbly and almost always angle upwards. Hers do not seem to.
FurthurBB
11-01-2006, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Ames
Look at how the lower case t's have a hook at the bottom on the left side. It looks almost like a v.....check it out....I know that there were alot of differences too...BUT...she WAS in the house when the murder took place...and if her handwriting even looks remotely similiar to the ransom note...she SHOULD have been arrested.
There are things missing from this analysis that I would like to know. When did the person in the ransome note dot their i's and cross their t's, before the word was complete or after? The same for Pasty. What kind of pressure was there on the paper for individual letters. Usually those things are included in analyses like these. IMO
Originally posted by FurthurBB
I went back and looked at it. I will add the comma to my list of things that are similar. The curved i's & I's the n with a line that connects it to the next letter and the very strange comma.
Check out the lower case k....and tell me what you think....
Originally posted by FurthurBB
There are things missing from this analysis that I would like to know. When did the person in the ransome note dot their i's and cross their t's, before the word was complete or after? The same for Pasty. What kind of pressure was there on the paper for individual letters. Usually those things are included in analyses like these. IMO
I also would like to know these things...they would be interesting to know.
WallyCleaver
11-01-2006, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by rashomon
But since Patsy obviously wrote the ransom note, how could she (according to poster dogc) not have known about it?
Here is a link where Patsy's handwriting is compared to the rasnom note. The similarities are striking. If this doesn't do it, nothing will:
http://www.acandyrose.com/02182003dh911motion.pdf
Re disposing of the body: I think the Ramseys indeed planned to dump JB's body somewhere outside, but taking her to Michigan would only have complicated things imo.
I believe they wanted to do it on that same night, which is why they wrote the ransom note.
But then they did not dare to do it, probably for fear of being seen, since many people stay up late at Christmas.
It's docg's theory that the note was written by JR. There is some reason to believe it -
http://web.tiscali.it/faustobrugnatelli/
I still lean towards the PR wrote it theory, because not only does some of her writting match (IMO) but some of her style of expression is evident.
antares
11-02-2006, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Ames
WHATEVER...I have just as much right to my opinion as YOU do. :rolleyes: If you don't like what I have to say...then stay off of my THREAD!!!
If the plan was to fly the body to Michigan and dump it there, why did they call 911?
Originally posted by antares
If the plan was to fly the body to Michigan and dump it there, why did they call 911?
No, I just meant WHAT IF...John had ORIGINALLY planned on dumping it in Lake Michigan....and then obviously changed his mind, for whatever reason...maybe it was too risky....maybe she wouldn't fit, so then they called 911. It was just a thought that had popped into my head. IMO
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