Possible Murderer Profiles

[LadyFisher]

This perp was an angry impulsive young man...his family member had been hurt by John Ramsey...he personally couldn't stand John..he hated John's quiet controlled demeanor...who did John think he is...look at those Ramseys, how they entertain...how they traveled..and apparently had no worries in the world...oh, yes, he knew about Patsy's bout with cancer, but it even appeared to him they could control that situation...his life, on the otherhand wasn't going so well...his family was in debt up to their eyeballs and concerned how they would pay their bills...he had always gotten everything he wanted throughout his young life...and he was entitled to it..he had been in trouble with LE before, but nothing of any major consequence...he was caught as a teen doing drugs and was sent away for awhile either to a juvenile detention center or something equivalent....people liked his intelligent humor, he could spellbound some folks with his storytelling...but he still didn't have a job, and didn't really want one....things weren't looking too good for him...his parents just told him he would have to get a real job, they couldn't support him any longer...he was furious...he went back to his apartment he lived in alone or with a girlfriend...stewed about his situation...he would get even with John Ramsey...he would kill his daughter!.....................ok, I'm not done yet...but that's where I'm at with this perp....don't laugh too hard, Wally :) this is really the way I see this perp!........anyone else?

[docg]

Yes, this looks pretty close to the type of intruder constructed by the author of the "ransom note." Not someone out to kill JonBenet, however, but someone out to kidnap her -- and get the symbolically significant amount of $118,000 from John. As revenge by someone who hated John Ramsey, someone who either knew about his bonus or believed John owed him that amount.

We know, however, that there could not have been such an intruder. For one thing, there was no kidnapping, the body was found in the house. For another, no one with a connection to John Ramsey would have dared leave a hand printed note that could identify him. Someone out to "get" John by kidnapping his daughter would have had no reason to either molest her sexually or kill her so brutally. And if there had been a kidnapping gone wrong, there would have been no note at all -- why leave a possibly incriminating note for no reason?

There were also no signs of a breakin. Contrary to what John attempted to suggest later, he first reported to the police that he'd checked all the doors and found them locked. The police double checked -- and found no sign of forced entry anywhere -- including the basment window.

Also, there are signs of insider staging at that same window. And it seems clear that John and Patsy both lied about aspects of the case. Parts of their story either don't add up or are simply incredible -- and they have contradicted one another.

Bottom line: we can NOT take the note at face value since it is so clearly intended to deceive. Look straight at the person it points directly away from and you'll have your killer.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by docg
And if there had been a kidnapping gone wrong, there would have been no note at all -- why leave a possibly incriminating note for no reason?

Why would John/Patsy take the unnecessary chance of writing a 3 page fake ransom note, when they knew all the time that the body was still in the house and their handwriting would be the first checked for similarities?


There were also no signs of a breakin. Contrary to what John attempted to suggest later, he first reported to the police that he'd checked all the doors and found them locked. The police double checked -- and found no sign of forced entry anywhere -- including the basment window.

The purpose for breaking the window in the first place had been to gain access through a locked window from the outside. The still broken window provided that same opportunity on Dec. 25th whether the window was locked or not. The fact that it was broken was not visible from the outside, owing to the grate.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by docg
Yes, this looks pretty close to the type of intruder constructed by the author of the "ransom note." Not someone out to kill JonBenet, however, but someone out to kidnap her -- and get the symbolically significant amount of $118,000 from John. As revenge by someone who hated John Ramsey, someone who either knew about his bonus or believed John owed him that amount.

We know, however, that there could not have been such an intruder. For one thing, there was no kidnapping, the body was found in the house. For another, no one with a connection to John Ramsey would have dared leave a hand printed note that could identify him. Someone out to "get" John by kidnapping his daughter would have had no reason to either molest her sexually or kill her so brutally. And if there had been a kidnapping gone wrong, there would have been no note at all -- why leave a possibly incriminating note for no reason?

There were also no signs of a breakin. Contrary to what John attempted to suggest later, he first reported to the police that he'd checked all the doors and found them locked. The police double checked -- and found no sign of forced entry anywhere -- including the basment window.

Also, there are signs of insider staging at that same window. And it seems clear that John and Patsy both lied about aspects of the case. Parts of their story either don't add up or are simply incredible -- and they have contradicted one another.

Bottom line: we can NOT take the note at face value since it is so clearly intended to deceive. Look straight at the person it points directly away from and you'll have your killer. I have to take the note at face value, Doc.....I realize John is an intelligent man...but, I don't think he's quite that intelligent...this note reeks of a psychopathic young offender! imho

[MissOtisRegrets]

I think the perp was fairly young and highly intelligent. I think he was already a petty criminal. I think he had been in the basement since the window was broken and noticed it. I think he went through John's desk and saw the $118K deferred payment on the paystub. I think he was in the position of having to address the Ramseys as "Mr. and Mrs." to their face either because of age or because of position. I don't think he was in the first line of suspects or the ransom note wouldn't have been handwritten. I think he was fascinated with crime and with bondage and control. I think he was in his comfort zone when writing.

Was the basement painted after the window was broken? Were the painters given a key? Were they left alone in the house? Was the upstairs painted, as well? (All of my jewelry was stolen by the people who painted my house. This happens.) Were they checked out?

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I think the perp was fairly young and highly intelligent. I think he was already a petty criminal. I think he had been in the basement since the window was broken and noticed it. I think he went through John's desk and saw the $118K deferred payment on the paystub. I think he was in the position of having to address the Ramseys as "Mr. and Mrs." to their face either because of age or because of position. I don't think he was in the first line of suspects or the ransom note wouldn't have been handwritten. I think he was fascinated with crime and with bondage and control. I think he was in his comfort zone when writing.

Was the basement painted after the window was broken? Were the painters given a key? Were they left alone in the house? Was the upstairs painted, as well? (All of my jewelry was stolen by the people who painted my house. This happens.) Were they checked out? I agree, MissO, he was in his comfort zone....he was fascinated with bondage...I would like to know, too, if these folks were checked out! I think you could be onto something here...this perp had been in their home often...I think he felt like John was condescending to him, too! Sorry to hear all your jewelry was stolen! That's a bummer! :(

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Why would John/Patsy take the unnecessary chance of writing a 3 page fake ransom note, when they knew all the time that the body was still in the house and their handwriting would be the first checked for similarities?



It was very necessary. They had a dead child to explain.

I think they made a decission early on not to dispose of the body. It might have been better had they dispossed of her and written a short, believable, ransom note. But their decission was to stage a psycho sex killing.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I think the perp was fairly young and highly intelligent. I think he was already a petty criminal. I think he had been in the basement since the window was broken and noticed it. I think he went through John's desk and saw the $118K deferred payment on the paystub. I think he was in the position of having to address the Ramseys as "Mr. and Mrs." to their face either because of age or because of position. I don't think he was in the first line of suspects or the ransom note wouldn't have been handwritten. I think he was fascinated with crime and with bondage and control. I think he was in his comfort zone when writing.

Was the basement painted after the window was broken? Were the painters given a key? Were they left alone in the house? Was the upstairs painted, as well? (All of my jewelry was stolen by the people who painted my house. This happens.) Were they checked out?

I've always wondered how carefully the painters were checked. There was the flood caused by one of them and the Ramseys were upset with the damage that happened from that while they were away. I read somewhere it was settled without going to court.


22 JOHN RAMSEY: We took the screens off when we
23 painted the house and he would have cleaned the
24 windows after the paint was done.
25 LOU SMIT: When was the painting done?
0072
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was finished just before
2 that Boulder Home Tour, the Historic Home Tour,
3 which I think was in '94. And the painting went on
4 for years. Dominic thought the painter was -- well
5 she thought he was --
6 LOU SMIT: And who was the painter?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Jay Pedopiece. The reason
8 I remember is, when it was over with, he went into
9 the house just to finish up some last little
10 touches. We were going to be out of town. Patsy
11 told him please close the windows when you leave.
12 And he left the windows open in my bedroom and
13 bathroom. The wind blew hard, blew open the
14 shutters which turned on the faucet and flooded
15 the whole house. About two weeks before this home
16 tour. (INAUDIBLE) coming out the garage doors and
17 I said, (What in the world is that.Þ (INAUDIBLE).
18 So Patsy went crazy trying to put that back
19 together in two weeks.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I agree, MissO, he was in his comfort zone....he was fascinated with bondage...I would like to know, too, if these folks were checked out! I think you could be onto something here...this perp had been in their home often...I think he felt like John was condescending to him, too! Sorry to hear all your jewelry was stolen! That's a bummer! :(

A real bummer! :( But, things like this happen. My next door neighbors had a man repairing their roof. He had access to the house and unlatched the dog door before leaving one afternoon. Came back at night while they were out and pushed his young son through the dog door. My neighbors came home to find their stereo, tv, etc. gone.

A friend of mine's parents, who lived a block from me, were both murdered by the man who worked in their yard. He then stole her wedding ring, $83.00, and their car. For drugs.

I know that parents do kill their children all the time. By beatings, drownings, etc. But not by garrotte (not one case on file with the FBI). And completely out of the blue! And to then stage an abandoned kidnapping with their own pen, paper, and three pages of script to implicate themselves! It just doesn't fit or make sense imo. The Ramseys were wealthy. Their house was not well-protected at all and backed onto an alley where transients hung out and JonBenet and Burke both rode their bikes.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar


I've always wondered how carefully the painters were checked. There was the flood caused by one of them and the Ramseys were upset with the damage that happened from that while they were away. I read somewhere it was settled without going to court.


22 JOHN RAMSEY: We took the screens off when we
23 painted the house and he would have cleaned the
24 windows after the paint was done.
25 LOU SMIT: When was the painting done?
0072
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was finished just before
2 that Boulder Home Tour, the Historic Home Tour,
3 which I think was in '94. And the painting went on
4 for years. Dominic thought the painter was -- well
5 she thought he was --
6 LOU SMIT: And who was the painter?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Jay Pedopiece. The reason
8 I remember is, when it was over with, he went into
9 the house just to finish up some last little
10 touches. We were going to be out of town. Patsy
11 told him please close the windows when you leave.
12 And he left the windows open in my bedroom and
13 bathroom. The wind blew hard, blew open the
14 shutters which turned on the faucet and flooded
15 the whole house. About two weeks before this home
16 tour. (INAUDIBLE) coming out the garage doors and
17 I said, (What in the world is that.Þ (INAUDIBLE).
18 So Patsy went crazy trying to put that back
19 together in two weeks.
So the painter had to settled with John...I would love to know how much he had to pay? He could have been very angry over this situation! imho

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
This perp was an angry impulsive young man...his family member had been hurt by John Ramsey...he personally couldn't stand John..he hated John's quiet controlled demeanor...who did John think he is...look at those Ramseys, how they entertain...how they traveled..and apparently had no worries in the world...oh, yes, he knew about Patsy's bout with cancer, but it even appeared to him they could control that situation...his life, on the otherhand wasn't going so well...his family was in debt up to their eyeballs and concerned how they would pay their bills...he had always gotten everything he wanted throughout his young life...and he was entitled to it..he had been in trouble with LE before, but nothing of any major consequence...he was caught as a teen doing drugs and was sent away for awhile either to a juvenile detention center or something equivalent....people liked his intelligent humor, he could spellbound some folks with his storytelling...but he still didn't have a job, and didn't really want one....things weren't looking too good for him...his parents just told him he would have to get a real job, they couldn't support him any longer...he was furious...he went back to his apartment he lived in alone or with a girlfriend...stewed about his situation...he would get even with John Ramsey...he would kill his daughter!.....................ok, I'm not done yet...but that's where I'm at with this perp....don't laugh too hard, Wally :) this is really the way I see this perp!........anyone else?

Hmmm,

I see him as an Englishman with a penchant for nudist magazines. He lived with his mother in their London flat until he moved to the US to take a job working for a company that makes shoe lace aglets.

He's 6'4", was 36 years old at the time of the murder, and wears an eye patch on his left eye- to cover for the fact that he has one blue and one brown eye. He has a scar on his left cheek, the result of a boyhood archery accident.

He's addicted to gins and tonic and in fact only broke into the Ramsey's home because he figured they had a nicely equipped bar. When he discovered the Ramseys were light drinkers, and the best gin they had was Beefeater, he became enraged and planned to kidnap JB and hold her until the R's agreed to buy Tanqueray.

While waiting for the R's to return he had time to watch a few movies - specifically "Dirty Harry", "Ransom", and "Speed".

After watching the films, he wandered aimlesly through the house and happened upon a check stub showing the amount of JR's bonus. This caused him to tear up and eat the original ransom note which only demanded Tanqueray gin, and replace it with the one we are familiar with. He reasoned JR wouldn't miss 118K as it was bonus money, and that amount would keep him in Tanqueray for quite some time.

As the night wore on, he thought about his nudist magazines and became very aroused. When at last he could come out from under JB's bed and grab her, he was too aroused to go through with his kidnapping plan. He left the ransom note on the stairs, hoping he could regain his composure and follow through with his plan. But the blood flow to his brain had been diverted, and all he could think of was gratification. He took her to the basement and molested her, and then, realizing he didn't have enough money to stop off at the pub for a gin and tonic, he angrily garrotted the girl. As a precaution, he taped her mouth with a piece of duct tape that he'd been using to patch a hole in the sole of his shoe. Impatient for her to die, he clubed her with his walking stick.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar


I've always wondered how carefully the painters were checked. There was the flood caused by one of them and the Ramseys were upset with the damage that happened from that while they were away. I read somewhere it was settled without going to court.


22 JOHN RAMSEY: We took the screens off when we
23 painted the house and he would have cleaned the
24 windows after the paint was done.
25 LOU SMIT: When was the painting done?
0072
1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was finished just before
2 that Boulder Home Tour, the Historic Home Tour,
3 which I think was in '94. And the painting went on
4 for years. Dominic thought the painter was -- well
5 she thought he was --
6 LOU SMIT: And who was the painter?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Jay Pedopiece. The reason
8 I remember is, when it was over with, he went into
9 the house just to finish up some last little
10 touches. We were going to be out of town. Patsy
11 told him please close the windows when you leave.
12 And he left the windows open in my bedroom and
13 bathroom. The wind blew hard, blew open the
14 shutters which turned on the faucet and flooded
15 the whole house. About two weeks before this home
16 tour. (INAUDIBLE) coming out the garage doors and
17 I said, (What in the world is that.Þ (INAUDIBLE).
18 So Patsy went crazy trying to put that back
19 together in two weeks.


Wow. Thanks, Louisa. So there was bad feeling there. I had the impression that the basement had only recently been painted. After the trees that had been stored in the Access Graphics warehouse had been brought over and put in the wine cellar. Had the trees been in the wine cellar since '94 and just never been used before?

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


A real bummer! :( But, things like this happen. My next door neighbors had a man repairing their roof. He had access to the house and unlatched the dog door before leaving one afternoon. Came back at night while they were out and pushed his young son through the dog door. My neighbors came home to find their stereo, tv, etc. gone.

A friend of mine's parents, who lived a block from me, were both murdered by the man who worked in their yard. He then stole her wedding ring, $83.00, and their car. For drugs.

I know that parents do kill their children all the time. By beatings, drownings, etc. But not by garrotte (not one case on file with the FBI). And completely out of the blue! And to then stage an abandoned kidnapping with their own pen, paper, and three pages of script to implicate themselves! It just doesn't fit or make sense imo. The Ramseys were wealthy. Their house was not well-protected at all and backed onto an alley where transients hung out and JonBenet and Burke both rode their bikes. I just don't picture this guy as a transient though....I think he wanted revenge! He didn't even know JBs name or probably couldn't spell it....he intended on killing her imho He just played out some of his own sick fantasies while doing it! imho

[bullmoose]

You know, this got me thinking of personality types, LadyFisher; I have a brother-in-law that in some ways fits your profile: for instance he has always, since I've known him[35 years] , looked through peoples' mail, papers, savings and checking accounts when they were not there to see and stop him. He also would then complain bitterly about anybody that he had found to be wealthier than himself. He also worked for some years for acompany that goes in and cleans up flood and fire damage and I think after renovations in rich peoples homes; it would give him very good access to go through peoples' records. I even think he has master keys to all locks in N. America. He was given a great deal of money to start his own business by his parents some years back, he likes to live big so the money ran out; actually this b-i-l of mine sort of fits the profile you gave. We no longer see him, he moved to Colorado 15 years ago. He resents people much better off than him. I'm not making this up, there are people out there like this, my b-i-law is.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Wally, good theory but with one mistake. This Brit's addiction was to Pina Colada's (constantly reliving youth mispent in the Caribbean) and it was only after realizing that JonBenet had eaten all of the pineapple, that his thoughts turned to murder. The full bowl prominently displayed on the kitchen table the following morning was his attempt to cover his tracks.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I just don't picture this guy as a transient though....I think he wanted revenge! He didn't even know JBs name or probably couldn't spell it....he intended on killing her imho He just played out some of his own sick fantasies while doing it! imho

I don't think it was a transient, either.

[Coloradokares]

I won't dispute what happened to your friends. However the Ramseys did not report robbery. You note however the area. Specifically transients in the neighborhood back alley. I know the area very well. I would not describe it as transients hanging out in back where JonBenet and Burke rode their bikes. These were nearing million dollar homes. Not perhaps Boulders most exclusive but it is a desireable neighborhood even if its a bit busier traffic wise right where the Ramsey house is. That neighborhood was not horribly far from the Chataqua Park.....But transient I wouldn't describe it that way. Not at all. I no longer live in the immediate Boulder area but I still go to Boulder at least probably once every other week to each week.

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


A real bummer! :( But, things like this happen. My next door neighbors had a man repairing their roof. He had access to the house and unlatched the dog door before leaving one afternoon. Came back at night while they were out and pushed his young son through the dog door. My neighbors came home to find their stereo, tv, etc. gone.

A friend of mine's parents, who lived a block from me, were both murdered by the man who worked in their yard. He then stole her wedding ring, $83.00, and their car. For drugs.

I know that parents do kill their children all the time. By beatings, drownings, etc. But not by garrotte (not one case on file with the FBI). And completely out of the blue! And to then stage an abandoned kidnapping with their own pen, paper, and three pages of script to implicate themselves! It just doesn't fit or make sense imo. The Ramseys were wealthy. Their house was not well-protected at all and backed onto an alley where transients hung out and JonBenet and Burke both rode their bikes.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Wally, good theory but with one mistake. This Brit's addiction was to Pina Colada's (constantly reliving youth mispent in the Caribbean) and it was only after realizing that JonBenet had eaten all of the pineapple, that his thoughts turned to murder. The full bowl prominently displayed on the kitchen table the following morning was his attempt to cover his tracks.

Of course, how stupid of me.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Coloradokares
I won't dispute what happened to your friends. However the Ramseys did not report robbery. You note however the area. Specifically transients in the neighborhood back alley. I know the area very well. I would not describe it as transients hanging out in back where JonBenet and Burke rode their bikes. These were nearing million dollar homes. Not perhaps Boulders most exclusive but it is a desireable neighborhood even if its a bit busier traffic wise right where the Ramsey house is. That neighborhood was not horribly far from the Chataqua Park.....But transient I wouldn't describe it that way. Not at all. I no longer live in the immediate Boulder area but I still go to Boulder at least probably once every other week to each week.



I'll take your word for it, Coloradokares. I've never been to Boulder. I got that from either PMPT or TCTHU. I don't remember which. It bothered me that those kids were allowed to play in that alley, if it was like that.

[Coloradokares]

Sure anytime you need to know something about Colorado or Boulder just ask. I think some books throw in a little sensationalism .....it sells book. I will give you the political climate in Boulder is one of a kind. We jokingly call it the 23 square miles surrounded by the rest of reality......but transient
and that neighborhood isn't a fit. The downfall of that house was its proximity to busier streets. Get all the newcrews going Uffdah!!

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


I'll take your word for it, Coloradokares. I've never been to Boulder. I got that from either PMPT or TCTHU. I don't remember which. It bothered me that those kids were allowed to play in that alley, if it was like that.

[MaryD]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


Hmmm,

I see him as an Englishman with a penchant for nudist magazines. He lived with his mother in their London flat until he moved to the US to take a job working for a company that makes shoe lace aglets.

He's 6'4", was 36 years old at the time of the murder, and wears an eye patch on his left eye- to cover for the fact that he has one blue and one brown eye. He has a scar on his left cheek, the result of a boyhood archery accident.

He's addicted to gins and tonic and in fact only broke into the Ramsey's home because he figured they had a nicely equipped bar. When he discovered the Ramseys were light drinkers, and the best gin they had was Beefeater, he became enraged and planned to kidnap JB and hold her until the R's agreed to buy Tanqueray.

While waiting for the R's to return he had time to watch a few movies - specifically "Dirty Harry", "Ransom", and "Speed".

After watching the films, he wandered aimlesly through the house and happened upon a check stub showing the amount of JR's bonus. This caused him to tear up and eat the original ransom note which only demanded Tanqueray gin, and replace it with the one we are familiar with. He reasoned JR wouldn't miss 118K as it was bonus money, and that amount would keep him in Tanqueray for quite some time.

As the night wore on, he thought about his nudist magazines and became very aroused. When at last he could come out from under JB's bed and grab her, he was too aroused to go through with his kidnapping plan. He left the ransom note on the stairs, hoping he could regain his composure and follow through with his plan. But the blood flow to his brain had been diverted, and all he could think of was gratification. He took her to the basement and molested her, and then, realizing he didn't have enough money to stop off at the pub for a gin and tonic, he angrily garrotted the girl. As a precaution, he taped her mouth with a piece of duct tape that he'd been using to patch a hole in the sole of his shoe. Impatient for her to die, he clubed her with his walking stick.


:lol:

[Louisadelmar]

If the killer is someone who knew the Ramseys through being an employee or an employee's family member, I sometimes wonder if the original plan was to kidnap her, knock her out and leave her trussed up in the basement. When the money was delivered the kidnapper would tell them where she was. That eliminates having to take care of the kidnap victim until the money is delivered. Then something unknown happened. Perhaps they hit her too hard and she started convulsing and then appeared dead. They panicked and all the subsequent staging was to point away from themselves (a 'normal', heterosexual male) and make it look like a pedophile killed her. The sexual assault is not as bad as one might expect under the circumstances so I have my doubts about whether this was done for the gratification of a real pedophile. If they were jealous/angry at the Ramseys for their money and perceived power, it may never have occurred to them that the Ramseys would be suspects. Given this set-up one of my questions is whether they left the note on purpose or just forgot it cause they wanted to get out ASAP.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar
If the killer is someone who knew the Ramseys through being an employee or an employee's family member, I sometimes wonder if the original plan was to kidnap her, knock her out and leave her trussed up in the basement. When the money was delivered the kidnapper would tell them where she was. That eliminates having to take care of the kidnap victim until the money is delivered. Then something unknown happened. Perhaps they hit her too hard and she started convulsing and then appeared dead. They panicked and all the subsequent staging was to point away from themselves (a 'normal', heterosexual male) and make it look like a pedophile killed her. The sexual assault is not as bad as one might expect under the circumstances so I have my doubts about whether this was done for the gratification of a real pedophile. If they were jealous/angry at the Ramseys for their money and perceived power, it may never have occurred to them that the Ramseys would be suspects. Given this set-up one of my questions is whether they left the note on purpose or just forgot it cause they wanted to get out ASAP.

Actually, authorities believe there was no gratification for the killer...they believe the "sexual assult" was staged.

[Louisadelmar]

Missed the edit window... :-(

That might explain leaving her on the blanket, (because she was going to be lying there (alive) for several hours), using the paper/pen from the house (so it couldn't be traced back to them) but taking the tape and rope since they had been recently purchased and they felt the excess needed to be disposed of because it might have picked up trace evidence that could be linked to them.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


Actually, authorities believe there was no gratification for the killer...they believe the "sexual assult" was staged.

Yes. That was what I was saying.

[Athena]

Originally posted by bullmoose
You know, this got me thinking of personality types, LadyFisher; I have a brother-in-law that in some ways fits your profile: for instance he has always, since I've known him[35 years] , looked through peoples' mail, papers, savings and checking accounts when they were not there to see and stop him. He also would then complain bitterly about anybody that he had found to be wealthier than himself. He also worked for some years for acompany that goes in and cleans up flood and fire damage and I think after renovations in rich peoples homes; it would give him very good access to go through peoples' records. I even think he has master keys to all locks in N. America. He was given a great deal of money to start his own business by his parents some years back, he likes to live big so the money ran out; actually this b-i-l of mine sort of fits the profile you gave. We no longer see him, he moved to Colorado 15 years ago. He resents people much better off than him. I'm not making this up, there are people out there like this, my b-i-law is.

I think I know your BIL. :eek: Just kidding; but I know people like that as well including a cop who loves to pull over people in fancy cars just to get their goat. Can't stand the fact that they have more than he does. It's really sad but there are many like him. jmo

[Athena]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


Actually, authorities believe there was no gratification for the killer...they believe the "sexual assult" was staged.

I agree with that statement -- it was just a "gotcha". jmo

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by Athena


I agree with that statement -- it was just a "gotcha". jmo

I don't think it was a "gotcha". Just staging to look like it was a sexual predator.

[Athena]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


Of course, how stupid of me.

Thanks for the laughs Wally and MsO ... 'tis funny! LOL

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Coloradokares
Sure anytime you need to know something about Colorado or Boulder just ask. I think some books throw in a little sensationalism .....it sells book. I will give you the political climate in Boulder is one of a kind. We jokingly call it the 23 square miles surrounded by the rest of reality......but transient
and that neighborhood isn't a fit. The downfall of that house was its proximity to busier streets. Get all the newcrews going Uffdah!!



Thanks, CK. Were there a lot of college and grad school kids in the area the Ramseys lived in? Doing odd jobs for extra money?

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar
If the killer is someone who knew the Ramseys through being an employee or an employee's family member, I sometimes wonder if the original plan was to kidnap her, knock her out and leave her trussed up in the basement. When the money was delivered the kidnapper would tell them where she was. That eliminates having to take care of the kidnap victim until the money is delivered. Then something unknown happened. Perhaps they hit her too hard and she started convulsing and then appeared dead. They panicked and all the subsequent staging was to point away from themselves (a 'normal', heterosexual male) and make it look like a pedophile killed her. The sexual assault is not as bad as one might expect under the circumstances so I have my doubts about whether this was done for the gratification of a real pedophile. If they were jealous/angry at the Ramseys for their money and perceived power, it may never have occurred to them that the Ramseys would be suspects. Given this set-up one of my questions is whether they left the note on purpose or just forgot it cause they wanted to get out ASAP.

If I can paraphrase Mr. Spock- That's highly illogical.

Under that theory, the kidnapper would have to be counting on no one finding the body before the ransom was delivered. Had the Ramseys acted the way most people would, they'd have searched the whole house, including the wine cellar. Had the police been more than Keystone Kops, they'd have found the body by 6:15. There is simply no way a kidnapper could plan for an uninuisitive family and incompetent police.

IOW, a ransom note, and the body both in the house doesn't add up. It was never a real kidnapping.

[WallyCleaver]

uninquisitive is what I meant to write.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Warning: unpleasant post!

I think the person who made that garrotte had made one (many) before. He didn't just pull that thought/technique out of the air on the spur of the moment. He had practiced at home. I think he was fascinated by the idea of strangulation and beheading (both can be accomplished with a garrotte) and had visited websites. He had experimented on small animals. Seeing the paintbox gave him the idea. It wasn't necessary, but he was interested in what the experience was like. He broke one of the brushes and tied it onto the cord. After applying the garrotte and before abusing JB, he posed her arms above her head to give the impression she was both handcuffed and suspended (3 loops). (She was unconscious, so the loops served no real purpose and were loose. She had been zapped once in the bed and once in the basement before he left her alone to take the note upstairs.) He loved bondage. He loved ritual. He loved fantasy. He cleaned her afterwards to remove any traces of himself. The experience had drained him emotionally. He was crying. The kidnapping and the note were long forgotten. He just had to get out of there before he was sick. He hit her with his flashlight. Partly for her and partly for himself. He left through the window.

MOO

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Warning: unpleasant post!

I think the person who made that garrotte had made one (many) before. He didn't just pull that thought/technique out of the air on the spur of the moment. He had practiced at home. I think he was fascinated by the idea of strangulation and beheading (both can be accomplished with a garrotte) and had visited websites. He had experimented on small animals. Seeing the paintbox gave him the idea. It wasn't necessary, but he was interested in what the experience was like. He broke one of the brushes and tied it onto the cord. After applying the garrotte and before abusing JB, he posed her arms above her head to give the impression she was both handcuffed and suspended (3 loops). (She was unconscious, so the loops served no real purpose and were loose. She had been zapped once in the bed and once in the basement before he left her alone to take the note upstairs.) He loved bondage. He loved ritual. He loved fantasy. He cleaned her afterwards to remove any traces of himself. The experience had drained him emotionally. He was crying. The kidnapping and the note were long forgotten. He just had to get out of there before he was sick. He hit her with his flashlight. Partly for her and partly for himself. He left through the window.

MOO

I thought the flashlight ended up on the kitchen couner. Or did that one belong to the Rs? And if it belonged to the Rs, why did they wipe their prints off the batteries?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


IOW, a ransom note, and the body both in the house doesn't add up. It was never a real kidnapping.

But, Wally, that is precisely why the Ramseys would not have staged one. According to your theory, they knew the body was in the house.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I thought the flashlight ended up on the kitchen couner. Or did that one belong to the Rs? And if it belonged to the Rs, why did they wipe their prints off the batteries?

Why would they wipe their prints off their own flashlight? This cover-up is so elaborate, I'm surprised they were even finished by 6am.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


But, Wally, that is precisely why the Ramseys would not have staged one. According to your theory, they knew the body was in the house.

But they had to stage something. It wasn't the smartest choice, but they had to do something.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Why would they wipe their prints off their own flashlight? This cover-up is so elaborate, I'm surprised they were even finished by 6am.

If the flashlight somehow played a part in the murder, I can see why they would wipe their prints off of it. The ransom note should have had their prints on it but didn't. The tape removed from JBs mouth should have had JRs prints on it but didn't.
I don't think the staging was that elaborate. Also, the "garrote" wasn't really a garotte but merely a noose with the paintbrush handle tied to one end. The only thing that would have taken a lot of time was the note...and even that is questionable in regards to how long it took. The Ramseys (or whoever) had 7 hours to complete every aspect of the crime, including the staging. That seems like plenty of time for anyone to have done these things. Possibly, though, an intruder would not have that much time. They'd want to be out of there a.s.a.p. unless they also knew what time the Ramseys would be getting up. They wouldn't want to hang out too long in case one of the family got up at some point in the night too...or so you'd think.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


But they had to stage something. It wasn't the smartest choice, but they had to do something.

Did it ever occur to you that "and hence" was put in to mock Patsy?

O/T Somebody just held up a sign saying "Walk your dog. Not Pujols."

[Coloradokares]

Maybe some I believe the Ramseys even had one working as a gardner? It is a college town. I really think though that everyone they'd had working for them personally was cleared however. One think I have observed. Alot of College kids were more interested in partying or ** shock** obtaining an education. The area they lived in was most definitely upwardly mobile. The Ramseys lived in world surrounded by power influence and position. Access Graphics was well known Lockheed even more so....

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks, CK. Were there a lot of college and grad school kids in the area the Ramseys lived in? Doing odd jobs for extra money?

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Did it ever occur to you that "and hence" was put in to mock Patsy?

O/T Somebody just held up a sign saying "Walk your dog. Not Pujols."

No, because there is no reason at all to think it's a revenge killing. No reason really to think it's anything other than a family killing, staged to look like an intruder.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


If the flashlight somehow played a part in the murder, I can see why they would wipe their prints off of it. The ransom note should have had their prints on it but didn't. The tape removed from JBs mouth should have had JRs prints on it but didn't.
I don't think the staging was that elaborate. Also, the "garrote" wasn't really a garotte but merely a noose with the paintbrush handle tied to one end. The only thing that would have taken a lot of time was the note...and even that is questionable in regards to how long it took. The Ramseys (or whoever) had 7 hours to complete every aspect of the crime, including the staging. That seems like plenty of time for anyone to have done these things. Possibly, though, an intruder would not have that much time. They'd want to be out of there a.s.a.p. unless they also knew what time the Ramseys would be getting up. They wouldn't want to hang out too long in case one of the family got up at some point in the night too...or so you'd think.

Do you think John went back to the basement and wiped his prints from the tape after removing it from JB's mouth? He would have been smarter to leave them there, if he was the one who put the tape on in the first place. Fleet White touched that tape after John. Were his prints on it? Prints don't show up like they do on tv. Whoever changed the batteries may have been wearing gloves at the time. Or the prints may have faded. Most are smeared. Police are lucky to find prints. On anything.

If one of the Ramseys accidentally or on purpose hit JonBenet on the head with a flashlight, they might have put it away in a remote closet after carefully removing their prints, rather than leave it out on the kitchen counter.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Do you think John went back to the basement and wiped his prints from the tape after removing it from JB's mouth? He would have been smarter to leave them there, if he was the one who put the tape on in the first place. Fleet White touched that tape after John. Were his prints on it? Prints don't show up like they do on tv. Whoever changed the batteries may have been wearing gloves at the time. Or the prints may have faded. Most are smeared. Police are lucky to find prints. On anything.

If one of the Ramseys accidentally or on purpose hit JonBenet on the head with a flashlight, they might have put it away in a remote closet after carefully removing their prints, rather than leave it out on the kitchen counter. I agree, MissO, they would have hidden the flashlight! O/T How about that game tonight :) YIPPEE & WOOHOO!

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


No, because there is no reason at all to think it's a revenge killing. No reason really to think it's anything other than a family killing, staged to look like an intruder. Wally, there's no reason to believe this family murdered their daughter....they never were abusive parents in any way...it doesn't make sense! I think this was a premeditated murder...parents that kill their children accidentally do not cover up the crime in a manner like this! It doesn't add up! imho

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Coloradokares
Maybe some I believe the Ramseys even had one working as a gardner? It is a college town. I really think though that everyone they'd had working for them personally was cleared however. One think I have observed. Alot of College kids were more interested in partying or ** shock** obtaining an education. The area they lived in was most definitely upwardly mobile. The Ramseys lived in world surrounded by power influence and position. Access Graphics was well known Lockheed even more so....



Thanks! :seeya: Coloradokares!

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I agree, MissO, they would have hidden the flashlight! O/T How about that game tonight :) YIPPEE & WOOHOO!

:D

[docg]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Why would John/Patsy take the unnecessary chance of writing a 3 page fake ransom note, when they knew all the time that the body was still in the house and their handwriting would be the first checked for similarities?



Excellent question! Now we're getting somewhere. This is not just any other case, it's a truly intriguing mystery. No simple straightforward scenario is ever going to account for all the complications. None of the intruder scenarios bear scrutiny. It doesn't matter how you try to "profile" such a person, because NO intruder would have had a reason to do ALL that was done. Neither do any of the "accident" scenarios add up, and for the same reason. To understand this case we need to speculate a bit on what sort of complication entered into the case to make it so "impossible" to puzzle out.

As I see it, there is only one way through this convoluted maze. If we see the note as written by someone who never intended for it to be found by the police, then we will get somewhere. If we see the note as a FAILED attempt to stage a kidnapping, part of a plan involving getting the body out of the house BEFORE the police were called, then it DOES make sense. Something clearly went wrong with the note writer's plan. If we take it on face value, either as something written by an intruder, or deliberately handed to the police by the Ramseys to throw them off the scent, then IMO we will never get anywhere.


The purpose for breaking the window in the first place had been to gain access through a locked window from the outside. The still broken window provided that same opportunity on Dec. 25th whether the window was locked or not. The fact that it was broken was not visible from the outside, owing to the grate. [/QUOTE]

The police examined that window and saw NO sign anyone had broken in. A photo shows the window sill to be covered with a thick crust of UNDISTURBED dirt, dust and grime. As Lou Smit himself demonstrated, no one could have gone through that window without seriously smearing that crust and making his presence obvious. NO such disturbance was found. No one went through that window. IMO John made up the story about breaking in earlier because it provided him with an alibi. Without that story the staging would have been obvious to the police and both of them would have been arrested on the spot.

[thewhitewitch1]

I've had the same thoughts as Docg about the window never having been broken previously.
Did the housekeeper ever confirm that it indeed had been previously broken? She would have been one to help clean up the glass, wouldn't she? I thought I read somewhere that she thought the entire window had been replaced at one time...that it opened differently than the original window. :confused:

To whomever said it...I was not speculating that JR wiped his prints off of the tape. I was just commenting on his prints weren't on it. I don't know if Fleets were on it. Does anyone know?
I feel a lot of things were "forgotten" or not thought about doing...such as putting the flashlight away and getting rid of the bowl of pineapple. I do not think either Patsy or John were clear headed and calculating when doing the staging. The fact that anyone could see that the scene was staged says that it was a pretty poor job of staging, therefore, it is not surprising to me that they left a few "details" unattended to. IMO

[Louisadelmar]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


If I can paraphrase Mr. Spock- That's highly illogical.

Under that theory, the kidnapper would have to be counting on no one finding the body before the ransom was delivered. Had the Ramseys acted the way most people would, they'd have searched the whole house, including the wine cellar. Had the police been more than Keystone Kops, they'd have found the body by 6:15. There is simply no way a kidnapper could plan for an uninuisitive family and incompetent police.

IOW, a ransom note, and the body both in the house doesn't add up. It was never a real kidnapping.

Actually I think the note sounds pretty arrogant. Perhaps the writer was rather full of himself and based his 'expertise' on knowledge gleaned from movies and TV shows. How often do you see people in movies searching a house after they have found a ransom note? Not very. The focus is immediately turned outwards.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar


Actually I think the note sounds pretty arrogant. Perhaps the writer was rather full of himself and based his 'expertise' on knowledge gleaned from movies and TV shows. How often do you see people in movies searching a house after they have found a ransom note? Not very. The focus is immediately turned outwards.

IOW you think he Rs wrote the note.

[LindaA]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I thought the flashlight ended up on the kitchen couner. Or did that one belong to the Rs? And if it belonged to the Rs, why did they wipe their prints off the batteries?

Good question. If he had gone to the kitchen to retrieve or leave the note he might have left the flashlight at that point and then gone back to the basement to leave through the window. But then, why leave the note if he had killed JB? And if he had gone up to retrieve it why didn't he and then leave the flashlight? Could it have been as late as the tme the Rs were getting up and moving around upstairs, running water, flushing toilets that spooked him? I really don't know. Just a theory.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by bullmoose
You know, this got me thinking of personality types, LadyFisher; I have a brother-in-law that in some ways fits your profile: for instance he has always, since I've known him[35 years] , looked through peoples' mail, papers, savings and checking accounts when they were not there to see and stop him. He also would then complain bitterly about anybody that he had found to be wealthier than himself. He also worked for some years for acompany that goes in and cleans up flood and fire damage and I think after renovations in rich peoples homes; it would give him very good access to go through peoples' records. I even think he has master keys to all locks in N. America. He was given a great deal of money to start his own business by his parents some years back, he likes to live big so the money ran out; actually this b-i-l of mine sort of fits the profile you gave. We no longer see him, he moved to Colorado 15 years ago. He resents people much better off than him. I'm not making this up, there are people out there like this, my b-i-law is. :lol: I have a brother that almost fits my profile, too.....only he isn't a sexual pervert, or at least I hope he isn't! :)

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar


Actually I think the note sounds pretty arrogant. Perhaps the writer was rather full of himself and based his 'expertise' on knowledge gleaned from movies and TV shows. How often do you see people in movies searching a house after they have found a ransom note? Not very. The focus is immediately turned outwards. I think he was arrogant to, he has a grandoise sense of self worth! He imo did glean a lot of his thoughts from movies, he connected with the bad guys....he enjoyed the idea of putting that fear into others..but his insecurity imo also shows in the note...his only reason for writing it was to point away from himself...this was imo and JDs a personal cause crime...he wanted revenge...if he left a ransom note, folks would not be looking for someone with a grudge again John...the perp is intelligent, but still couldn't help leaving many clues about himself in that note! Have a great day folks! :seeya:

[cantaloupe]

Random Thoughts on the Murderer MOO

young, male, had some kind of relationship with mr. ramsey--either direct or through a third party who knew/worked for him--- where he felt ramsey was condescending, arrogant. Killer was jealous of ramsey, liked turning the tables on Ramsey "take that you fat cat" "how does it feel to be helpless" ("good evening Mr. Anderson" , from the matrix type of feeling).

Young man who played a lot of fantasy games on Sony or XBox or computer, watched violent movies, probably an underachiever,loser in real life. spurned by girls/women his own age. Fantasy life far more interesting than real life. Probably did not graduate from college, maybe not even high school. interested in bondage, may have tried it with a sex partner, may have scared a woman at some point with his weird sexual predilections.

Blue collar worker, if employed. had previous access to ramsey home. may have been recognizable to JBR, maybe not. has certainly been around ramsey's previously. JBR was not a random victim. length of ransom note suggests a younger killer---need to show off, to huff and puff, to build up his esteem. probably wishes he had the courage to have woken up ramsey and rubbed his nose in the situation, but was too much of a coward. He may be angry at himself for not doing this, and the note is his attempt to prove that he isn't afraid of ramsey (by making it so long and spending so much time writing it).

Some of the caring details (wrapping the body, etc) indicate that the crime wasn't against JBR personally, she was a tool to hurt somebody else. Killer may even have younger sister and he thought of her after killing JBR and felt sad. Killing may not have been "premeditated" but a response to killer seeing that he could not really pull off a kidnapping or a simple assault.

[MissOtisRegrets]

I've looked and can't find it now, but I am sure I read on this board very recently part of an interview with Steve Thomas in which he says he thinks one of the policemen/women left the flashlight and then became embarrassed to come forward and admit it.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by cantaloupe
Random Thoughts on the Murderer MOO

young, male, had some kind of relationship with mr. ramsey--either direct or through a third party who knew/worked for him--- where he felt ramsey was condescending, arrogant. Killer was jealous of ramsey, liked turning the tables on Ramsey "take that you fat cat" "how does it feel to be helpless" ("good evening Mr. Anderson" , from the matrix type of feeling).

Young man who played a lot of fantasy games on Sony or XBox or computer, watched violent movies, probably an underachiever,loser in real life. spurned by girls/women his own age. Fantasy life far more interesting than real life. Probably did not graduate from college, maybe not even high school. interested in bondage, may have tried it with a sex partner, may have scared a woman at some point with his weird sexual predilections.

Blue collar worker, if employed. had previous access to ramsey home. may have been recognizable to JBR, maybe not. has certainly been around ramsey's previously. JBR was not a random victim. length of ransom note suggests a younger killer---need to show off, to huff and puff, to build up his esteem. probably wishes he had the courage to have woken up ramsey and rubbed his nose in the situation, but was too much of a coward. He may be angry at himself for not doing this, and the note is his attempt to prove that he isn't afraid of ramsey (by making it so long and spending so much time writing it).

Some of the caring details (wrapping the body, etc) indicate that the crime wasn't against JBR personally, she was a tool to hurt somebody else. Killer may even have younger sister and he thought of her after killing JBR and felt sad. Killing may not have been "premeditated" but a response to killer seeing that he could not really pull off a kidnapping or a simple assault.

Great post, cantaloupe! Your point about the length of the note suggesting youth is very interesting.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by docg


As I see it, there is only one way through this convoluted maze. If we see the note as written by someone who never intended for it to be found by the police, then we will get somewhere. If we see the note as a FAILED attempt to stage a kidnapping, part of a plan involving getting the body out of the house BEFORE the police were called, then it DOES make sense. Something clearly went wrong with the note writer's plan. If we take it on face value, either as something written by an intruder, or deliberately handed to the police by the Ramseys to throw them off the scent, then IMO we will never get anywhere.

doc, if the Ramseys had either accidentally or intentionally killed their daughter and decided to stage a kidnapping, the first thing they would have done is get rid of the body. They never would have written any kind of note. Too risky. They would have called police in the a.m. and said, "Help! Our daughter is missing!" The police would then have found her body up the alley.

I think there are two reasonable explanations for the combination of a note and a body. One is that for some reason the kidnapping was called off after the note was left. I come here from a case in which one of the defendants was accused of having driven halfway across the country to plant cocaine in a woman's car at someone else's directive. Cocaine WAS found in the car but the police were never called on the woman. The defendant claimed he had driven there only to help her move (without her knowledge, apparently). When asked on the stand if he had actually helped her move or had even contacted her while there, he said, "No, the mission was aborted."

Another possible reason for the note was that it provided an opportunity for the perp to speak directly to John in a situation in which he (perp) was in a position of power over him. The note fed the ego of its author.



The police examined that window and saw NO sign anyone had broken in. A photo shows the window sill to be covered with a thick crust of UNDISTURBED dirt, dust and grime. As Lou Smit himself demonstrated, no one could have gone through that window without seriously smearing that crust and making his presence obvious. NO such disturbance was found. No one went through that window. IMO John made up the story about breaking in earlier because it provided him with an alibi. Without that story the staging would have been obvious to the police and both of them would have been arrested on the spot.

But, the window WAS broken.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by docg



The police examined that window and saw NO sign anyone had broken in. A photo shows the window sill to be covered with a thick crust of UNDISTURBED dirt, dust and grime. As Lou Smit himself demonstrated, no one could have gone through that window without seriously smearing that crust and making his presence obvious. NO such disturbance was found. No one went through that window. IMO John made up the story about breaking in earlier because it provided him with an alibi. Without that story the staging would have been obvious to the police and both of them would have been arrested on the spot.


doc, I know you've seen this photos many times before, but here they are again:

http://www.lousmit.com/intrudertheory.htm

I don't understand why it is thought not possible, or even probable, that the perp entered and left by that window.

[LindaA]

Those photos certainly look as if something had passed through there not too long before the photos were taken. I don't see how people can say any different.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by cantaloupe
Random Thoughts on the Murderer MOO

young, male, had some kind of relationship with mr. ramsey--either direct or through a third party who knew/worked for him--- where he felt ramsey was condescending, arrogant. Killer was jealous of ramsey, liked turning the tables on Ramsey "take that you fat cat" "how does it feel to be helpless" ("good evening Mr. Anderson" , from the matrix type of feeling).

Young man who played a lot of fantasy games on Sony or XBox or computer, watched violent movies, probably an underachiever,loser in real life. spurned by girls/women his own age. Fantasy life far more interesting than real life. Probably did not graduate from college, maybe not even high school. interested in bondage, may have tried it with a sex partner, may have scared a woman at some point with his weird sexual predilections.

Blue collar worker, if employed. had previous access to ramsey home. may have been recognizable to JBR, maybe not. has certainly been around ramsey's previously. JBR was not a random victim. length of ransom note suggests a younger killer---need to show off, to huff and puff, to build up his esteem. probably wishes he had the courage to have woken up ramsey and rubbed his nose in the situation, but was too much of a coward. He may be angry at himself for not doing this, and the note is his attempt to prove that he isn't afraid of ramsey (by making it so long and spending so much time writing it).

Some of the caring details (wrapping the body, etc) indicate that the crime wasn't against JBR personally, she was a tool to hurt somebody else. Killer may even have younger sister and he thought of her after killing JBR and felt sad. Killing may not have been "premeditated" but a response to killer seeing that he could not really pull off a kidnapping or a simple assault. Thank you for your post and for having the nerve to post your profile....so many RDIs haven't even given us their scenario of the murder......I agree with the majority of your post, cantalope....the only thing I disagree with is...I think this guy is educated......he is above average intelligence! Probably does work a blue collar job when he wants to work! :seeya:

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by docg


Excellent question! Now we're getting somewhere. This is not just any other case, it's a truly intriguing mystery. No simple straightforward scenario is ever going to account for all the complications. None of the intruder scenarios bear scrutiny. It doesn't matter how you try to "profile" such a person, because NO intruder would have had a reason to do ALL that was done. Neither do any of the "accident" scenarios add up, and for the same reason. To understand this case we need to speculate a bit on what sort of complication entered into the case to make it so "impossible" to puzzle out.

As I see it, there is only one way through this convoluted maze. If we see the note as written by someone who never intended for it to be found by the police, then we will get somewhere. If we see the note as a FAILED attempt to stage a kidnapping, part of a plan involving getting the body out of the house BEFORE the police were called, then it DOES make sense. Something clearly went wrong with the note writer's plan. If we take it on face value, either as something written by an intruder, or deliberately handed to the police by the Ramseys to throw them off the scent, then IMO we will never get anywhere.


The purpose for breaking the window in the first place had been to gain access through a locked window from the outside. The still broken window provided that same opportunity on Dec. 25th whether the window was locked or not. The fact that it was broken was not visible from the outside, owing to the grate.

The police examined that window and saw NO sign anyone had broken in. A photo shows the window sill to be covered with a thick crust of UNDISTURBED dirt, dust and grime. As Lou Smit himself demonstrated, no one could have gone through that window without seriously smearing that crust and making his presence obvious. NO such disturbance was found. No one went through that window. IMO John made up the story about breaking in earlier because it provided him with an alibi. Without that story the staging would have been obvious to the police and both of them would have been arrested on the spot. [/B][/QUOTE]

You are forgetting something that could be a plausable RDI theory and the only one that would actually make sense to me. Only one parent was responsible and the extreme staging was not for the police, it was for the other parent. IMOO

[cantaloupe]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Thank you for your post and for having the nerve to post your profile....so many RDIs haven't even given us their scenario of the murder......I agree with the majority of your post, cantalope....the only thing I disagree with is...I think this guy is educated......he is above average intelligence! Probably does work a blue collar job when he wants to work! :seeya:

Thanks. I agree with the above average intelligence, but I think he has underachieved.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by cantaloupe
Random Thoughts on the Murderer MOO

young, male, had some kind of relationship with mr. ramsey--either direct or through a third party who knew/worked for him--- where he felt ramsey was condescending, arrogant. Killer was jealous of ramsey, liked turning the tables on Ramsey "take that you fat cat" "how does it feel to be helpless" ("good evening Mr. Anderson" , from the matrix type of feeling).

Young man who played a lot of fantasy games on Sony or XBox or computer, watched violent movies, probably an underachiever,loser in real life. spurned by girls/women his own age. Fantasy life far more interesting than real life. Probably did not graduate from college, maybe not even high school. interested in bondage, may have tried it with a sex partner, may have scared a woman at some point with his weird sexual predilections.

Blue collar worker, if employed. had previous access to ramsey home. may have been recognizable to JBR, maybe not. has certainly been around ramsey's previously. JBR was not a random victim. length of ransom note suggests a younger killer---need to show off, to huff and puff, to build up his esteem. probably wishes he had the courage to have woken up ramsey and rubbed his nose in the situation, but was too much of a coward. He may be angry at himself for not doing this, and the note is his attempt to prove that he isn't afraid of ramsey (by making it so long and spending so much time writing it).

Some of the caring details (wrapping the body, etc) indicate that the crime wasn't against JBR personally, she was a tool to hurt somebody else. Killer may even have younger sister and he thought of her after killing JBR and felt sad. Killing may not have been "premeditated" but a response to killer seeing that he could not really pull off a kidnapping or a simple assault.

It's interesting that people come up with these profiles but may I ask on what basis you've determined any of this?

The text analysis I've read suggests the writer is 40ish.

I don't think Xbox was in existance in '96 (I could be wrong)

On what basis do you deduce he's an underachiever?

Spurned by girls his own age? What in the note indicates this?

Fantasy life more interesting that real life. I have to give you that one, but isn't that true for most of us ?

Not college grad? Maybe not even HS? The note doesn't seem to have been written by a HS drop out. It indicates a high level of education.

Blue collar, if employed? What in the note, or about the crime indicates his profession?

Length of note indicates a younger man? Why?

He had abducted her from her room but before he got out the door realized he couldn't pull off the kidnapping? What's left to do but put her in his car and drive off?

If we're going to make profiles, sholdn't there be at least a wee bit of basis for them?

[LindaA]

Wally, I think you're right about xbox; it is only a few years old. But there were devices like that just not so sophisticatead, so I guess we can assume that's what she was saying.

Evidence to back up what these profilers are saying would be interesting.

[Athena]

OK I'm at work and sneaking in here.

I see alot of people seem to believe that ransom note was written by someone of high intelligence and honestly I don't see that at all. (I'm even disagreeing with some of my IDIs here). The vocabulary used in that ransom note including the references from the movies could have been written by anyone from the 6th grade up. JMO

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by Athena
OK I'm at work and sneaking in here.

I see alot of people seem to believe that ransom note was written by someone of high intelligence and honestly I don't see that at all. (I'm even disagreeing with some of my IDIs here). The vocabulary used in that ransom note including the references from the movies could have been written by anyone from the 6th grade up. JMO

The movie lines yes. "and hence" even though it's an unnecessary redundancy, indicates someone with some learning. How many HS dropouts use the word hence, correctly or incorrectly? How many use the word attache? (I don't know what key to use to make the accent mark - but the RN author did put in the accent mark) The only two spelling mistakes appear to be intentional. That's only three examples, but IMO it's clear the writter had some education.

[MissOtisRegrets]

I think that thought went into both the planning of the crime and the writing of the letter. The perp did his homework. He knew how to get in and out of the house without activating the alarm, whether the system was turned on or not. In the end, he chose to abandon his plan rather than risk setting off the alarm. Intelligent. He knew the house ahead of time. He knew that John could get a cash credit from his retirement account for $118K with little trouble. While the rest of the money in the account may have been untouchable, the deferred payment could provide a quick bank "loan". The $118K may have had a personal significance for the perp, but it definitely served the purpose of unsettling John further and putting him at the author's mercy as it had a personal significance for him that $100K would not have had. As well, the amount of $118K was easily available and so insignificant in relation to the Ramseys' wealth, that there was the possibility that John would pay it without contacting the police in the hopes of getting his daughter back safe. The letter is well-organized. It's a business letter. The author lets John know what he wants and that he knows John can get it. The apparent rambling is to create a character imo, but it allows the author to vent his anger while hiding behind the words of others so as not to expose himself. The spelling is excellent. "Bussiness" may be intentional to hide the connection. Backed up by "posession" would be clever. These are the only misspelled words in the note, but they may actually be misspellings. The perp brought only what he had to to the crime scene. I do think he was intelligent.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I think that thought went into both the planning of the crime and the writing of the letter. The perp did his homework. He knew how to get in and out of the house without activating the alarm, whether the system was turned on or not. In the end, he chose to abandon his plan rather than risk setting off the alarm. Intelligent. He knew the house ahead of time. He knew that John could get a cash credit from his retirement account for $118K with little trouble. While the rest of the money in the account may have been untouchable, the deferred payment could provide a quick bank "loan". The $118K may have had a personal significance for the perp, but it definitely served the purpose of unsettling John further and putting him at the author's mercy as it had a personal significance for him that $100K would not have had. As well, the amount of $118K was easily available and so insignificant in relation to the Ramseys' wealth, that there was the possibility that John would pay it without contacting the police in the hopes of getting his daughter back safe. The letter is well-organized. It's a business letter. The author lets John know what he wants and that he knows John can get it. The apparent rambling is to create a character imo, but it allows the author to vent his anger while hiding behind the words of others so as not to expose himself. The spelling is excellent. "Bussiness" may be intentional to hide the connection. Backed up by "posession" would be clever. These are the only misspelled words in the note, but they may actually be misspellings. The perp brought only what he had to to the crime scene. I do think he was intelligent. Excellent post, MissO! Have a great night everyone! :seeya:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Excellent post, MissO! Have a great night everyone! :seeya:

Thank you, LadyFisher! I really do think a lot of thought went into this. And Christmas night was a good choice. People are bone tired, full of Christmas dinner and cheer, and just crash. No one would be expecting anything like this. Their defenses would be down. And a child who still believes in Santa would be more manipulable on Christmas than on any other day of the year.

(Rain delay :mad: )

[MaryD]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


The movie lines yes. "and hence" even though it's an unnecessary redundancy, indicates someone with some learning. How many HS dropouts use the word hence, correctly or incorrectly? How many use the word attache? (I don't know what key to use to make the accent mark - but the RN author did put in the accent mark) The only two spelling mistakes appear to be intentional. That's only three examples, but IMO it's clear the writter had some education.

Wally

You are beating a dead horse. One of the main reasons people get away with horrible crimes is because too many folks are in DENIAL. They want to believe the lies of others and find reality too difficult to deal with.

The evidence is pointing in one direction and being selectively acknowledged here.

The window had a spider web still intact and no noticeable disturbance.

The letter was written in a block style business format.

It was 9 degrees outside with frost all over and no signs of footsteps.

The Ramseys would not be able to take JB out in the car in the dead quite neighborhood without someone possibly hearing it and or leaving tire tracks.

Jonbenet was cleaned up and redressed.

The stories the R's gave had inconsistencies and were altered to fit the need.

So unless everything we know to be true with the evidence is not, than I personally cannot reason an intruder being involved. I also cannot deny the parents involvement just because I can't imagine them doing such a horrible thing. To me teaching a 4, 5 or 6 year old to go on stage and act seductively while dressed like an adult show girl, wearing high heels, bleached blonde hair, makeup, jewelry, arm bands, etc. is very inappropriate. Not to mention her being allowed to ask other adults to wipe her in the bathroom, very wrong, very weird!

IMO

[thewhitewitch1]

Got to agree with everything you said, MaryD.

[MaryD]

Just wanted to add. Maybe JB was being sexually abused by someone and tried to tell her mother. Maybe her mother who liked to live in a fantasy world would not listen to her, or got angry with her for rocking the boat. Maybe JB decided to call 911 the night of the party and was yelled at or hit for her effort. Maybe that is why JB cried saying she wasn't pretty. Maybe she just didn't want to be pretty anymore if being pretty can bring such ugly results. Some children blame themselves for the things others do to them. I think her disgust or dislike of her twin doll could be an indication of her self reproach or distorted guilt.

I have no proof of the above but when I correlate it to the information I have read it is a potential senario. JMO

[Coloradokares]

I had a friend who was I would think the term was molested by a close relative. The Mom wouldn't listen to her cries for help. I think she told me she was even blamed for what happened because she was a forward and friendly little girl . That was right up until she finally couldn't take it any more and killed herself a few years ago now. Your post brought all this tumbling back. Can you even fathom being blamed for getting molested as a pre kindergarten child. Unfathomable!!
QUOTE]Originally posted by MaryD
Just wanted to add. Maybe JB was being sexually abused by someone and tried to tell her mother. Maybe her mother who liked to live in a fantasy world would not listen to her, or got angry with her for rocking the boat. Maybe JB decided to call 911 the night of the party and was yelled at or hit for her effort. Maybe that is why JB cried saying she wasn't pretty. Maybe she just didn't want to be pretty anymore if being pretty can bring such ugly results. Some children blame themselves for the things others do to them. I think her disgust or dislike of her twin doll could be an indication of her self reproach or distorted guilt.

I have no proof of the above but when I correlate it to the information I have read it is a potential senario. JMO [/QUOTE]

[Athena]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


The movie lines yes. "and hence" even though it's an unnecessary redundancy, indicates someone with some learning. How many HS dropouts use the word hence, correctly or incorrectly? How many use the word attache? (I don't know what key to use to make the accent mark - but the RN author did put in the accent mark) The only two spelling mistakes appear to be intentional. That's only three examples, but IMO it's clear the writter had some education.

I did not say it had to be a HS dropout but I also don't know many sixth graders who would not be familiar with the words hence and attache. BTW -- there was no accent mark on attache -- if you look at it you will notice that the y from the word above appears above it and look at the other y's as well and you will see the end of downward slant appears to have a little hook at the end of them (I'm assuming from the felt pen). jmo

This is the readability score the "ransom note" received in MS Word:

Words 353
Characters 1582
Paragraphs 8
Sentences 29

Sentences Per Paragraph 4.1
Words per Sentence 12.1
Characters per Word 4.3

Passive sentences 13
Flesch Reading Ease 67.3%
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 6.8

[docg]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets



doc, I know you've seen this photos many times before, but here they are again:

http://www.lousmit.com/intrudertheory.htm

I don't understand why it is thought not possible, or even probable, that the perp entered and left by that window.

Look closely at the photo titled "Middle window." Smit points to the central area in the window well which does look relatively clean. However, if an intruder climbed down into that well from above, what we'd expect to see would be CRUSHED debris rather than an area relatively clear of debris. The look of the well is far more consistent with someone from the INSIDE scooping debris up from the well. And debris from the well WAS found under the window, which tells me someone scooped the debris from the well and dropped it on the floor as part of a crude staging effort.

The most telling evidence is not what we see in the well, but what we see on the window sill next to it. The thick layer of dust and grime is clearly undisturbed, no sign of smearing, crushing, nothing. While there are some channels in the dirt, they were probably caused by raindrops. Clearly anyone squeezing through that very narrow window would have smeared the dirt on the sill, but there is no sign of that.

The police examined that window carefully and ruled out any sign of a breakin. Smit was NOT on the scene and worked only from photos. This ain't rocket science. If someone had passed through that window the police would have seen signs of that all over the well, the sill and the frame. And we'd see signs of that in the photos. We don't. No one went through that window!

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by docg


Look closely at the photo titled "Middle window." Smit points to the central area in the window well which does look relatively clean. However, if an intruder climbed down into that well from above, what we'd expect to see would be CRUSHED debris rather than an area relatively clear of debris. The look of the well is far more consistent with someone from the INSIDE scooping debris up from the well. And debris from the well WAS found under the window, which tells me someone scooped the debris from the well and dropped it on the floor as part of a crude staging effort.

The most telling evidence is not what we see in the well, but what we see on the window sill next to it. The thick layer of dust and grime is clearly undisturbed, no sign of smearing, crushing, nothing. While there are some channels in the dirt, they were probably caused by raindrops. Clearly anyone squeezing through that very narrow window would have smeared the dirt on the sill, but there is no sign of that.

The police examined that window carefully and ruled out any sign of a breakin. Smit was NOT on the scene and worked only from photos. This ain't rocket science. If someone had passed through that window the police would have seen signs of that all over the well, the sill and the frame. And we'd see signs of that in the photos. We don't. No one went through that window!

That's about as solid a fact as we have in this case - no one went through that window.

When you look at Smit's whole presentation, it's difficult to resist the thought that he's been paid off.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by Athena


I did not say it had to be a HS dropout but I also don't know many sixth graders who would not be familiar with the words hence and attache. BTW -- there was no accent mark on attache -- if you look at it you will notice that the y from the word above appears above it and look at the other y's as well and you will see the end of downward slant appears to have a little hook at the end of them (I'm assuming from the felt pen). jmo

This is the readability score the "ransom note" received in MS Word:

Words 353
Characters 1582
Paragraphs 8
Sentences 29

Sentences Per Paragraph 4.1
Words per Sentence 12.1
Characters per Word 4.3

Passive sentences 13
Flesch Reading Ease 67.3%
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 6.8

I still have to disagree. I don't know many adults who use "hence" let alone 6th graders. A poorly educated adult would probably say brief case, rather than attache. It's not a question of knowing the words, but of using them. Most people know what hence means, and know what an attache is, but most people don't use those words.

The business style of letter also indicates someone with education. The indentations indicate someone who learned to write in the pen and ink days rather than the computer age, where indenting is done away with.

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thank you, LadyFisher! I really do think a lot of thought went into this. And Christmas night was a good choice. People are bone tired, full of Christmas dinner and cheer, and just crash. No one would be expecting anything like this. Their defenses would be down. And a child who still believes in Santa would be more manipulable on Christmas than on any other day of the year.

(Rain delay :mad: )

I agree, that was a great post, MissO! One thing I'd like to add about Christmas night being a good choice fpr the crime...most police departments are running on a skeleton crew then because so many of their personnel get Christmas off. They have FAR fewerer patrol cars on the streets then than at most any other time.

MOO

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I still have to disagree. I don't know many adults who use "hence" let alone 6th graders. A poorly educated adult would probably say brief case, rather than attache. It's not a question of knowing the words, but of using them. Most people know what hence means, and know what an attache is, but most people don't use those words.

The business style of letter also indicates someone with education. The indentations indicate someone who learned to write in the pen and ink days rather than the computer age, where indenting is done away with.

IMO, that note was very well planned out and structured with a lot of thought. Not something a parent could do right after murdering their child. To me, it looks like it was written by someone trying to "sound" well educated, but not necessarily all that well educated, therefore using the words "attache" and "hence" to "show" how smart they are. The "and" in front of "hence" is incorrect, which shows their command of the language might not be as perfect as they wanted it to appear.

PS, kids are still taught in school to write by hand with pen/pencil and paper.

MOO

[Athena]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I still have to disagree. I don't know many adults who use "hence" let alone 6th graders. A poorly educated adult would probably say brief case, rather than attache. It's not a question of knowing the words, but of using them. Most people know what hence means, and know what an attache is, but most people don't use those words.

The business style of letter also indicates someone with education. The indentations indicate someone who learned to write in the pen and ink days rather than the computer age, where indenting is done away with.

The written word is different from the spoken word. Many people use vocabulary in their writings that they don't use in their everyday speech. The author of that note also could have been around someone however who did refer to their breifcase as an attache case and around someone who spoke the word hence. Doesn't mean the person is highly educated - the whole note is fake and is meant to appear as something it is not, so why wouldn't the use of those two words be as well? JMO

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by Athena


The written word is different from the spoken word. Many people use vocabulary in their writings that they don't use in their everyday speech. The author of that note also could have been around someone however who did refer to their breifcase as an attache case and around someone who spoke the word hence. Doesn't mean the person is highly educated - the whole note is fake and is meant to appear as something it is not, so why wouldn't the use of those two words be as well? JMO

That is so true! Many times when I read emails I've written to friends and family before I send them, I'm surprised by how stilted they sound, then I go back and rewrite them, talking out loud while I do it, so they come out "sounding" more like I'm talking instead of writing a "business letter" to someone I love.

[Athena]

Yep: thank goodness for little smilie faces you can insert into emails. They help with what the "tone" is supposed to be like as the written word can be so seemingly cold or to use your word "businesslike".

Good morning Myr. :seeya:

Off to work soon. ugh

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by Athena
Yep: thank goodness for little smilie faces you can insert into emails. They help with what the "tone" is supposed to be like as the written word can be so seemingly cold or to use your word "businesslike".

Good morning Myr. :seeya:

Off to work soon. ugh

Hi Athena! Don't work too hard! :seeya:

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1
Got to agree with everything you said, MaryD.

I don't. The lack of footprints and the undisturbed spider web have been "disproven." JMO

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


I don't. The lack of footprints and the undisturbed spider web have been "disproven." JMO

I will go with the footprints but not the spiderweb. I have read a few things about that, including the type of spider it was and its habits and it would not have "rewoven" a web in that weather.
Also, as far as the foliage being under the grate, it looked to me like it was growing there in a crevice, not like it had been mashed down by the grate. Lou Smit shows up to the crime scene 3 months after the fact and thinks he can find things exactly the same and use it as "evidence" of an intruder? Come on.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


I don't. The lack of footprints and the undisturbed spider web have been "disproven." JMO

Where was the undisturbed spider web disproven?

That was a web from species Agelenidae, the funnel web spider - a known hibernator. He hibernates over the winter because his food supply is absent in winter weather. Sergeant Reichenbach noted it was 10 degrees at 6 a.m. the morning of 12/26/96, far too cold for him to awaken and see his web needed to be rebuilt. Even if the basement offered a window area with more warmth than the general outside area, he still would not have come out of hibernation until spring.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


I agree, that was a great post, MissO! One thing I'd like to add about Christmas night being a good choice fpr the crime...most police departments are running on a skeleton crew then because so many of their personnel get Christmas off. They have FAR fewerer patrol cars on the streets then than at most any other time.

MOO

Great point!!!

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


I will go with the footprints but not the spiderweb. I have read a few things about that, including the type of spider it was and its habits and it would not have "rewoven" a web in that weather.
Also, as far as the foliage being under the grate, it looked to me like it was growing there in a crevice, not like it had been mashed down by the grate. Lou Smit shows up to the crime scene 3 months after the fact and thinks he can find things exactly the same and use it as "evidence" of an intruder? Come on.

Two spider "experts" consulted with by the BPD said they could.

Also, did you see the foliage up close? Smit did.

JMO

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Two spider "experts" consulted with by the BPD said they could.

Also, did you see the foliage up close? Smit did.

JMO

Who are these experts? May I have a link, please? I'm going with the expert opinion of Dr Brent Opell, Professor of Biology at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University.

http://wwwa.accuweather.com/news-blogs.asp?partner=accuweather&blog=voss

Brent Opell, Professor of Biology at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, however, claimed that "the web was that of the Agelenidae, known as a funnel-web spider. The web was reasonably intact and extending through the grating, suggesting that the grating had not been disturbed since the spider constructed its web. According to Prof. Opell, these types of spiders would cease constructing webs no later than early November, thus indicating that no one had entered that window well past this early November deadline."


http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-5858

Det. Michael Everett, the Lead Crime Scene investigator Boulder police department, was also told to report to the Ramsey residence to assist in the crime scene search with Det. Sgt. Tom Wickman, the supervisor in charge of the crime scene. When they arrived they too inspected the outside of the residence. They discovered a basement level window with a broken pane. As they were inspecting the window well for any evidence of entry, they noticed that the grate placed over thee window well was covered with a spider web which appeared undisturbed, making it unlikely that anyone had entered through that window.


http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-5858

This grate was photographed and collected for evidence. Interior dusting of
the window for fingerprints was done by crime scene investigators and no
latent prints were found. In May, the photos were submitted to Brent Opell,
Professor of Biology at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State
University in Blacksbury, Virginia. Prof. Opell reported that the web was
that of the Agelenidae, known as a funnel-web spider. The web was
reasonably intact and extending through the grating, suggesting that the
grating had not been disturbed since the spider constructed its web.
According to Prof. Opell, these types of spiders would cease constructing
webs no later than early November, thus indicating that no one had entered
that window well past this early November deadline. The theory that anyone
could have entered the Ramsey residence through this broken window was
totally discounted by this simple evidence of nature.

[sweetcharlotte]

Spider experts hired by BPD - PM/PT - don't have the book - can't provide names. Posted previously. JMO

Foliage - JMO

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Two spider "experts" consulted with by the BPD said they could.

Also, did you see the foliage up close? Smit did.

JMO

Smit saw the foliage close up but 3 months after the fact. I watched "Who Killed the pageant Queen" the other night when they showed the grate close up and it still looked to me like the foliage was growing under the grate in a crevice. It doesn't really matter anyway...it was 3 months later.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


IMO, that note was very well planned out and structured with a lot of thought.

Therefore, not the work of someone with a poor education.


Not something a parent could do right after murdering their child.


Someone who was trained in journalism would write that way all the time - it becomes habit.


To me, it looks like it was written by someone trying to "sound" well educated, but not necessarily all that well educated, therefore using the words "attache" and "hence" to "show" how smart they are. The "and" in front of "hence" is incorrect, which shows their command of the language might not be as perfect as they wanted it to appear.


Most of the textual analysts seem to think just the opposite. It was written by someone who did have a decent education.

Yes, "and" is unnecessary in front of "hence". Yet, I'd wager half the people who use hence at all, use it with and in front. Many people, despite being well educated, pick up bad language habits. How many people in a President's cabinet -fairly well educated people - will say something such as "at this point in time" ? It's an unnecessary redundancy. How many well educated people will say "I myself have done that". Again, an unnecessary redundancy. How many people who you know for a fact have a college degree will use the word less in circumstances where they should use fewer?



PS, kids are still taught in school to write by hand with pen/pencil and paper.

MOO

If you'll look at young people's writing, you'll see indentation isn't the standard it used to be. It's the effect of the internet.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by Athena


The written word is different from the spoken word. Many people use vocabulary in their writings that they don't use in their everyday speech. The author of that note also could have been around someone however who did refer to their breifcase as an attache case and around someone who spoke the word hence. Doesn't mean the person is highly educated - the whole note is fake and is meant to appear as something it is not, so why wouldn't the use of those two words be as well? JMO

OK, that's possible. I'm giving concrete reasons for thinking the note was written by an educated person. IDI's are giving me their usual crystal ball "feelings" that it's someone poorly educated. I don't see anything in the note that indicates the writer was poorly educated.

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by Athena


I did not say it had to be a HS dropout but I also don't know many sixth graders who would not be familiar with the words hence and attache. BTW -- there was no accent mark on attache -- if you look at it you will notice that the y from the word above appears above it and look at the other y's as well and you will see the end of downward slant appears to have a little hook at the end of them (I'm assuming from the felt pen). jmo

This is the readability score the "ransom note" received in MS Word:

Words 353
Characters 1582
Paragraphs 8
Sentences 29

Sentences Per Paragraph 4.1
Words per Sentence 12.1
Characters per Word 4.3

Passive sentences 13
Flesch Reading Ease 67.3%
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 6.8


Excellent! Thanks for posting this.

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I still have to disagree. I don't know many adults who use "hence" let alone 6th graders. A poorly educated adult would probably say brief case, rather than attache. It's not a question of knowing the words, but of using them. Most people know what hence means, and know what an attache is, but most people don't use those words.

The business style of letter also indicates someone with education. The indentations indicate someone who learned to write in the pen and ink days rather than the computer age, where indenting is done away with.

Indenting is done away with? You had better tell my children because their teachers must be on crack expecting indentation in every written paper. We should sue.:shrug:

[cantaloupe]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


It's interesting that people come up with these profiles but may I ask on what basis you've determined any of this? ..............
If we're going to make profiles, sholdn't there be at least a wee bit of basis for them?

the basis is My Own Opinion. I am not representing it as anything else. You are welcome to disagree with it.;)

[Athena]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte
Spider experts hired by BPD - PM/PT - don't have the book - can't provide names. Posted previously. JMO

Foliage - JMO

Sweet I'm at work and don't have the book with me either -- but PMPT also pointed out that this "web" was ONLY FOUR (4) strands and also could have been elastic enough to withstand the opening of the grate because of its position. jmo

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


OK, that's possible. I'm giving concrete reasons for thinking the note was written by an educated person. IDI's are giving me their usual crystal ball "feelings" that it's someone poorly educated. I don't see anything in the note that indicates the writer was poorly educated. G'mornin, Wally.....AT THIS POINT IN TIME, I MYSELF feel this person was educated! :lol: AND HENCE....I notice a lot of educated folks use ALOT, too! :) No crystal ball for me, Wally, I don't believe in them......I see a somewhat educated writer in that note! I don't see Patsy...she would have known how to spell business!

[LadyFisher]

I see this perp as sexually inadequate....I agree with Cantalope, he had few if any relationships with women! I believe he was acquainted with Bondage, S & M from the internet......I do believe he had been inside that home many times...my favorite suspects are the painters, the housekeeper's sil (or whatever he is in relation to her), and a family member or an acquaintance of one of the babysitters (who probably had been in the home with them)! jmho AT THIS POINT IN TIME, that's my suspects, as always my opinions are subject to change! :)

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
G'mornin, Wally.....AT THIS POINT IN TIME, I MYSELF feel this person was educated! :lol: AND HENCE....I notice a lot of educated folks use ALOT, too! :) No crystal ball for me, Wally, I don't believe in them......I see a somewhat educated writer in that note! I don't see Patsy...she would have known how to spell business!

LOL!

[MissOtisRegrets]

Young. Acting alone. Had been successfully burglarizing homes in the area. Regularly watched the paper for funerals, travel plans, etc. Saw article on success of AG and John Ramsey on the 21st. Researched John on internet. Decided to kidnap his daughter and hold for ransom (actually to kill the same night and abandon body). May or may not have known the family and house ahead of time. Cased house. Discovered broken window. Entered home while Ramseys at the White's on Christmas. Good time. No one expecting. Thoughts elsewhere and everyone tired. Police only skeleton crew. Brought kit. Went through house, including John's desk. May have misunderstood and thought $118K deposited in cash account. He was a burglar, not an accountant. Rehearsed in his mind while walking the house. Decided to write note to focus anxiety. Worked it out while writing. "Mr. and Mrs.", no, just "Mr. Ramsey". More direct. Business-like. Serious. Used total of ten pages to write 3 page note.

Knocked JB unconscious in order to take her from house. Then, something went wrong. Couldn't get her out according to plan. Too practiced in burglary not to recognize and respect certain risks. Plan adjusted. JB killed and hidden in basement. Left alone by window.

MOO

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Young. Acting alone. Had been successfully burglarizing homes in the area. Regularly watched the paper for funerals, travel plans, etc. Saw article on success of AG and John Ramsey on the 21st. Researched John on internet. Decided to kidnap his daughter and hold for ransom (actually to kill the same night and abandon body). May or may not have known the family and house ahead of time. Cased house. Discovered broken window. Entered home while Ramseys at the White's on Christmas. Good time. No one expecting. Thoughts elsewhere and everyone tired. Police only skeleton crew. Brought kit. Went through house, including John's desk. May have misunderstood and thought $118K deposited in cash account. He was a burglar, not an accountant. Rehearsed in his mind while walking the house. Decided to write note to focus anxiety. Worked it out while writing. "Mr. and Mrs.", no, just "Mr. Ramsey". More direct. Business-like. Serious. Used total of ten pages to write 3 page note.

Knocked JB unconscious in order to take her from house. Then, something went wrong. Couldn't get her out according to plan. Too practiced in burglary not to recognize and respect certain risks. Plan adjusted. JB killed and hidden in basement. Left alone by window.

MOO O/T What did you think about that ballgame tonight! :lol: YIPPEE & WOOHOO!!! Cardinals are world champions! :)

[lucky13]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Young. Acting alone. Had been successfully burglarizing homes in the area. Regularly watched the paper for funerals, travel plans, etc. Saw article on success of AG and John Ramsey on the 21st. Researched John on internet. Decided to kidnap his daughter and hold for ransom (actually to kill the same night and abandon body). May or may not have known the family and house ahead of time. Cased house. Discovered broken window. Entered home while Ramseys at the White's on Christmas. Good time. No one expecting. Thoughts elsewhere and everyone tired. Police only skeleton crew. Brought kit. Went through house, including John's desk. May have misunderstood and thought $118K deposited in cash account. He was a burglar, not an accountant. Rehearsed in his mind while walking the house. Decided to write note to focus anxiety. Worked it out while writing. "Mr. and Mrs.", no, just "Mr. Ramsey". More direct. Business-like. Serious. Used total of ten pages to write 3 page note.

Knocked JB unconscious in order to take her from house. Then, something went wrong. Couldn't get her out according to plan. Too practiced in burglary not to recognize and respect certain risks. Plan adjusted. JB killed and hidden in basement. Left alone by window.

MOO
So you theorize that a burgler, who has been successfully robbing homes in the neighborhood, all of a sudden decides to become a kidnapper? He went through all of the trouble of carrying out the kidnap plan( brought 'kit', wrote note-using 10 pages, garrotted & killed JB, etc.), but then because he couldn't get her out of the house 'according to plan', he just blows it all off & leaves? And this is the same man who had successfully pulled off numerous burglaries? WHY didn't he at least STEAL SOMETHING- this BURGLAR??? I'm just asking. I try to understand the IDI theories, but as hard as I try to, I cannot.

[lucky13]

My murderer profile is....a very frantic, sad, & frightened parent who had to come up with a cover-up in a very short amount of time. They had to make it seem like someone who knew them came into their home & committed a brutal murder right under their noses. They decided, since they were wealthy, to make it seem like a 'kidnapping'. They quickly staged the scene in their panic. THEIR PLAN WORKED.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by lucky13
My murderer profile is....a very frantic, sad, & frightened parent who had to come up with a cover-up in a very short amount of time. They had to make it seem like someone who knew them came into their home & committed a brutal murder right under their noses. They decided, since they were wealthy, to make it seem like a 'kidnapping'. They quickly staged the scene in their panic. THEIR PLAN WORKED.

Their plan shouldn't have worked. BPD was incompetent and the prosecutor was a namby-pamby.


Congratulations to the Cardinals.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by lucky13
My murderer profile is....a very frantic, sad, & frightened parent who had to come up with a cover-up in a very short amount of time. They had to make it seem like someone who knew them came into their home & committed a brutal murder right under their noses. They decided, since they were wealthy, to make it seem like a 'kidnapping'. They quickly staged the scene in their panic. THEIR PLAN WORKED. Can you explain why there were so many ridiculous references to movie lines in that RN? To my knowledge there has never been another case which parents stated a horrific murder/sexual abuse scene as this one? Why not just pretend she had fallen down stairs and hit her head? This accidental murder of a child by parents just doesn't add up in this case....imho this was a planned premeditated murder! imho

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Young. Acting alone. Had been successfully burglarizing homes in the area. Regularly watched the paper for funerals, travel plans, etc. Saw article on success of AG and John Ramsey on the 21st. Researched John on internet. Decided to kidnap his daughter and hold for ransom (actually to kill the same night and abandon body). May or may not have known the family and house ahead of time. Cased house. Discovered broken window. Entered home while Ramseys at the White's on Christmas. Good time. No one expecting. Thoughts elsewhere and everyone tired. Police only skeleton crew. Brought kit. Went through house, including John's desk. May have misunderstood and thought $118K deposited in cash account. He was a burglar, not an accountant. Rehearsed in his mind while walking the house. Decided to write note to focus anxiety. Worked it out while writing. "Mr. and Mrs.", no, just "Mr. Ramsey". More direct. Business-like. Serious. Used total of ten pages to write 3 page note.

Knocked JB unconscious in order to take her from house. Then, something went wrong. Couldn't get her out according to plan. Too practiced in burglary not to recognize and respect certain risks. Plan adjusted. JB killed and hidden in basement. Left alone by window.

MOO MissO, I always respect your opinons even if I don't agree with them! :) I agree with JD on this one, I don't think this murder was a criminal enterprise...I think it was a personal cause crime....I think the ransom note was written after the perp was in the home while the Ramseys were out....it was to distract away from himself...he knew that hurting this little girl would hurt John badly...I think he had some sick fantasies in his head, too....I think the perp probably abuse drugs or alcohol and something triggered him the day of the murder....he might have already entertained the thought of killing JB, but something specific made him act that very night...imho

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
MissO, I always respect your opinons even if I don't agree with them! :) I agree with JD on this one, I don't think this murder was a criminal enterprise...I think it was a personal cause crime....I think the ransom note was written after the perp was in the home while the Ramseys were out....it was to distract away from himself...he knew that hurting this little girl would hurt John badly...I think he had some sick fantasies in his head, too....I think the perp probably abuse drugs or alcohol and something triggered him the day of the murder....he might have already entertained the thought of killing JB, but something specific made him act that very night...imho

LadyFisher, I always respect your opinions, as well.

I can't say I have anything more fixed than an opinion of the moment in this case. I can't really find any grounding in it at all. I do think it is unlikely, though possible, that the Ramseys were involved. Every time I look at the ransom note it appears different to me. Depending on how it's laid out on the particular page I'm looking at it on. Whether I'm looking at the handwritten or printed version. What side of the bed I got up on. How many cups of coffee I've had. Sometimes I see it as a straight ransom note written by someone with too much time on their hands. Sometimes I see anger and "Can you hear me NOW?" written in every line. Sometimes I see a joke written by a bunch of kids. I do realize that I am hoping for a crime based on nothing but money and that that may be affecting what I see. I am so worn out by the hatred in the background and motive of the other case that I would really like a rest from it in this one. This crime is so brutal and so horrific, it would somehow be easier for me to accept if it weren't personal.

I do think the perp probably self-medicated. Who could live inside such a mind without it? I have been thinking the crime was planned in advance, but maybe it was just triggered by something that did (or didn't) happen that day.

How about them Cards? :patriot: Who's laughing now?

[Athena]

MsO,

I understand your changes of feeling each time you read the ransom note. But you are looking at it from every possible angle and I believe that's a good thing.

The basic premise I have attempted to stick to is that:

1) I truly believe the strangulation took place first.

2) That an intruder wrote the ransom note to deter the Ramseys from calling 911 and receiving the money early.

3) That for whatever reason they were thwarted from removing her body from the basement and decided to leave it based on #2 above.

4) The ransom note was written in a way to render JR powerless and show control.

5) The plan almost worked considering JBR was not found until 1PM.

In between all of those points -- hard to fill in the details. JMO



Re: the Cardinals -- Congratulations!!!

We'll (the Mets) see you again next years. :)

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


LadyFisher, I always respect your opinions, as well.

I can't say I have anything more fixed than an opinion of the moment in this case. I can't really find any grounding in it at all. I do think it is unlikely, though possible, that the Ramseys were involved. Every time I look at the ransom note it appears different to me. Depending on how it's laid out on the particular page I'm looking at it on. Whether I'm looking at the handwritten or printed version. What side of the bed I got up on. How many cups of coffee I've had. Sometimes I see it as a straight ransom note written by someone with too much time on their hands. Sometimes I see anger and "Can you hear me NOW?" written in every line. Sometimes I see a joke written by a bunch of kids. I do realize that I am hoping for a crime based on nothing but money and that that may be affecting what I see. I am so worn out by the hatred in the background and motive of the other case that I would really like a rest from it in this one. This crime is so brutal and so horrific, it would somehow be easier for me to accept if it weren't personal.

I do think the perp probably self-medicated. Who could live inside such a mind without it? I have been thinking the crime was planned in advance, but maybe it was just triggered by something that did (or didn't) happen that day.

How about them Cards? :patriot: Who's laughing now? I hope you folks in St. Louis enjoyed the parade! I know we are so proud of our Cardinals!......................I understand where you are coming from...but I have to believe it was personal...imo it had to be someone "in the know" so to speak...the reference to the $118,000 imo wasn't a coincidence......I would love to know more about the housekeeper's family...I was reading a post on Jameson's board that someone actually contacted the Ramseys concerning Merv! They called him Merv the perv and accused him of child molestation...I was wondering if this man has ever done time for any crimes? What is actually known about him? He would have had access to a key, known about the cellar, & probably been aware of the $118,000, as well as the SIL...the housekeeper probably discussed the Ramseys often in her own home...there were financial problems...imho Others that had access to the home could have known these things, too! Someone said that Merv submitted to hair and Dna, are we certain he did? Did the SIL? imho HAPPY HALLOWEEN, everyone! :)

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by Athena
MsO,

I understand your changes of feeling each time you read the ransom note. But you are looking at it from every possible angle and I believe that's a good thing.

The basic premise I have attempted to stick to is that:

1) I truly believe the strangulation took place first.

2) That an intruder wrote the ransom note to deter the Ramseys from calling 911 and receiving the money early.

3) That for whatever reason they were thwarted from removing her body from the basement and decided to leave it based on #2 above.

4) The ransom note was written in a way to render JR powerless and show control.

5) The plan almost worked considering JBR was not found until 1PM.

In between all of those points -- hard to fill in the details. JMO



Re: the Cardinals -- Congratulations!!!

We'll (the Mets) see you again next years. :) Althena, I believe the strangulation took place first! I believe the perp was planning on removing the body from the home....that's why I think only the torso was wrapped in the blanket...it might have been easier for him to carry her, who knows! But do you think they were really expecting to get a ransom? I don't! I think the perp intended on killing JB from the very beginning and only wrote the ransom note to shed light away from himself...but in doing that he revealed imo much about himself. He was an avid movie watcher, someone with a lot of time on his hands..possibly laid off of work, or just completely dependent on others for his livelihood! jmho I believe there is powerful evidence of a stun gun used on JB! I saw a show the other day, and can't remember what channel...it showed a body that a stun gun had been used on, the marks were so comparable to the ones on JB, there's really no other explanation for them! imho

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I hope you folks in St. Louis enjoyed the parade! I know we are so proud of our Cardinals!......................I understand where you are coming from...but I have to believe it was personal...imo it had to be someone "in the know" so to speak...the reference to the $118,000 imo wasn't a coincidence......I would love to know more about the housekeeper's family...I was reading a post on Jameson's board that someone actually contacted the Ramseys concerning Merv! They called him Merv the perv and accused him of child molestation...I was wondering if this man has ever done time for any crimes? What is actually known about him? He would have had access to a key, known about the cellar, & probably been aware of the $118,000, as well as the SIL...the housekeeper probably discussed the Ramseys often in her own home...there were financial problems...imho Others that had access to the home could have known these things, too! Someone said that Merv submitted to hair and Dna, are we certain he did? Did the SIL? imho HAPPY HALLOWEEN, everyone! :)

Great post. Although a number of individuals in this case appear to fit the criteria for an intruder perfectly, these are certainly two of them.

Happy Halloween!

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Althena, I believe the strangulation took place first! I believe the perp was planning on removing the body from the home....that's why I think only the torso was wrapped in the blanket...it might have been easier for him to carry her, who knows! But do you think they were really expecting to get a ransom? I don't! I think the perp intended on killing JB from the very beginning and only wrote the ransom note to shed light away from himself...but in doing that he revealed imo much about himself. He was an avid movie watcher, someone with a lot of time on his hands..possibly laid off of work, or just completely dependent on others for his livelihood! jmho I believe there is powerful evidence of a stun gun used on JB! I saw a show the other day, and can't remember what channel...it showed a body that a stun gun had been used on, the marks were so comparable to the ones on JB, there's really no other explanation for them! imho

LadyFisher, I believe a stun gun was probably used on JonBenet but its effect would not have been longlasting enough for the perp to feel secure taking her from the house. I think she may have been struck on the head for that reason. Something then went wrong and it was decided to kill and leave her in the basement. I believe it was said that she died between 10 and 45 minutes after being hit on the head. I wonder if the garrotting, which cut off the flow of blood to the brain, helped to contain the bleeding in the head wound.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


LadyFisher, I believe a stun gun was probably used on JonBenet but its effect would not have been longlasting enough for the perp to feel secure taking her from the house. I think she may have been struck on the head for that reason. Something then went wrong and it was decided to kill and leave her in the basement. I believe it was said that she died between 10 and 45 minutes after being hit on the head. I wonder if the garrotting, which cut off the flow of blood to the brain, helped to contain the bleeding in the head wound. I am thinking she was probably stunned in her bed before the perp took her to the basement. Imo he attempted the garrotting first..(I remember reading somewhere that her own dna was found under her fingernail? :confused:) She possibly tried to fight it...the head wound might have come during this time? This is confusing...the whole case is confusing, MissO!

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I am thinking she was probably stunned in her bed before the perp took her to the basement. Imo he attempted the garrotting first..(I remember reading somewhere that her own dna was found under her fingernail? :confused:) She possibly tried to fight it...the head wound might have come during this time? This is confusing...the whole case is confusing, MissO!

She could have her own DNA under her nails from something as simple as scratching an itch some time in the day.
I will agree that the case is very confusing. Now, thanks to you guys, I was up late last night reading about Darlie Routier and I have a feeling I am going to get very caught up in that one too! That one has the same mysterious elements that the Ramseys case does.

[LindaA]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


She could have her own DNA under her nails from something as simple as scratching an itch some time in the day.
I will agree that the case is very confusing. Now, thanks to you guys, I was up late last night reading about Darlie Routier and I have a feeling I am going to get very caught up in that one too! That one has the same mysterious elements that the Ramseys case does.

You're certainly right about both the Ramsey and the Routier cases. In both there are things that point to their guilt, but other things that point away. If DR is innocent she has certainly paid a heavy price.

[Athena]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


She could have her own DNA under her nails from something as simple as scratching an itch some time in the day.
I will agree that the case is very confusing. Now, thanks to you guys, I was up late last night reading about Darlie Routier and I have a feeling I am going to get very caught up in that one too! That one has the same mysterious elements that the Ramseys case does.

TWW: the DNA found under her fingernails was contanimated but there was foreign DNA found. From what I have read the foreign DNA under the fingernails because it was contanimated could only exclude someone but would not give a positive ID as there were not enough markers. JMO

[nuisanceposter]

There's no way to prove any foreign DNA under her nails came from the killer, either. It could have been the DNA of anyone she encountered that day, or possibly even the day before. Patsy didn't recall JB taking a bath that day, and she said JonBenet wasn't a dilligent hand-washer.

The fingernail DNA is more or less useless and barely worth discussing, as it was contaminated, cannot be dated, and has too few markers to truly be of use in finding the killer. If it was fresh and complete DNA, that would be a different story...but it isn't.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena


TWW: the DNA found under her fingernails was contanimated but there was foreign DNA found. From what I have read the foreign DNA under the fingernails because it was contanimated could only exclude someone but would not give a positive ID as there were not enough markers. JMO

Athena, was there a second drop of blood found in JB's panties? Did DNA from that drop of blood match the DNA thought to possibly be from saliva from an unidentified white male that was mixed in with the drop of JB's blood in her panties? Or was its existence a rumor resulting from confusion between the DNA under her fingernails and the DNA found in the spot of her blood? Even though the DNA found under her fingernails can only be used to exclude, does what they have match the DNA from the possible saliva, as far as it goes?

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Athena, was there a second drop of blood found in JB's panties? Did DNA from that drop of blood match the DNA thought to possibly be from saliva from an unidentified white male that was mixed in with the drop of JB's blood in her panties? Or was its existence a rumor resulting from confusion between the DNA under her fingernails and the DNA found in the spot of her blood? Even though the DNA found under her fingernails can only be used to exclude, does what they have match the DNA from the possible saliva, as far as it goes?

MsO ... Unfortunately most of the books were written prior to the new DNA evidence that was isolated so there are conflicting reports. I had posted a video to where there was a forensic scientist who also said the fingernail DNA matched that of the DNA that was isolated due to new technology. Because the DNA allegedly matched - that is where it is believed JBR might have fought back. The video was from You Tube but I don't have time to search for it right now. It is posted somewhere on the board:

The crime lab has two spots of JonBenet's blood found on the underwear she was wearing the night of the murder. Mixed in with that blood is the DNA of an unknown person. It has taken years to isolate, but forensic scientists in Colorado now have a complete DNA profile of the killer. They know the killer is a male. What they don't know is his name.

Augustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena


MsO ... Unfortunately most of the books were written prior to the new DNA evidence that was isolated so there are conflicting reports. I had posted a video to where there was a forensic scientist who also said the fingernail DNA matched that of the DNA that was isolated due to new technology. Because the DNA allegedly matched - that is where it is believed JBR might have fought back. The video was from You Tube but I don't have time to search for it right now. It is posted somewhere on the board:

The crime lab has two spots of JonBenet's blood found on the underwear she was wearing the night of the murder. Mixed in with that blood is the DNA of an unknown person. It has taken years to isolate, but forensic scientists in Colorado now have a complete DNA profile of the killer. They know the killer is a male. What they don't know is his name.

Augustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jonbenet+dna


Thanks!

:seeya:

MissO

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Athena


MsO ... Unfortunately most of the books were written prior to the new DNA evidence that was isolated so there are conflicting reports. I had posted a video to where there was a forensic scientist who also said the fingernail DNA matched that of the DNA that was isolated due to new technology. Because the DNA allegedly matched - that is where it is believed JBR might have fought back. The video was from You Tube but I don't have time to search for it right now. It is posted somewhere on the board:

The crime lab has two spots of JonBenet's blood found on the underwear she was wearing the night of the murder. Mixed in with that blood is the DNA of an unknown person. It has taken years to isolate, but forensic scientists in Colorado now have a complete DNA profile of the killer. They know the killer is a male. What they don't know is his name.

Augustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

It is also quite possible that it is artifact DNA and is not the killers at all. DA Lacy made that clear in the press conference following the announcement there would be no arrest warrant on John Mark Karr. Artifact means yes it is male most likely saliva. But as degraded as it was....it could have been from some source other than the killers and their prior to the blood of JonBenets. We don't know and won't know till there is a match if ever there is a match. 10 years no match yet. Does that make me sound like an RDI. Sorry. But what it should sound like is this may not be case at all for DNA to solve. Augustin and Grey work for Lou Schmit. Had worked for the Ramseys. Not exactly non biased. Time will tell. The DNA is with CODIS no one wants a match or a hit more than me. I lived less than 10 miles from there It is so devastating to have something like this happen in your own community area and never know the truth or see justice served.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jonbenet+dna


Thanks!

:seeya:

MissO To Althena & MissO, thank you both! How can anyone deny there was an intruder? This DNA didn't match the Ramseys! I would like to see this case solved by the upcoming 10th anniversary of her murder!

[MissOtisRegrets]

From the YouTube video of Lou Smit going through the window, it doesn't appear that an intruder would have had any trouble getting both JonBenet and himself out unless maybe she was in the suitcase. The suitcase may have been longer than the depth of the ledge onto which it would have been loaded and the window not wide enough to allow the suitcase to be loaded sideways or on the diagonal.


MOO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KkcRBbTpmM&mode=related&search=

[MissOtisRegrets]

I know I read somewhere on this board that a neighbor had heard metal clanging on concrete at some point during the night, but I don't remember who posted it or what their source was.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I know I read somewhere on this board that a neighbor had heard metal clanging on concrete at some point during the night, but I don't remember who posted it or what their source was.

I believe it was the husband of the woman who heard the "scream".

I say "scream" because she initially said it could have been JB's negative energy. Whatever that means.

[Ames]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I believe it was the husband of the woman who heard the "scream".

I say "scream" because she initially said it could have been JB's negative energy. Whatever that means.

I think that it means that she didn't hear anything afterall...and she was trying to backpedal....saying that it could "have been JB's negative energy". What a weird thing to say....

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I know I read somewhere on this board that a neighbor had heard metal clanging on concrete at some point during the night, but I don't remember who posted it or what their source was. I posted about it, MissO! I read it in DOI, but I forgot what page it was on!

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I posted about it, MissO! I read it in DOI, but I forgot what page it was on!

Thanks, LadyFisher! :seeya: The page number is not necessary.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I believe it was the husband of the woman who heard the "scream".

I say "scream" because she initially said it could have been JB's negative energy. Whatever that means.

Thanks, Wally! :seeya:

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks, LadyFisher! :seeya: The page number is not necessary. It's on pg. 369 in the HB Death of Innocence....."Our neighbor awakened her husband, who said a short time later he heard the sound of metal scraping against concrete." John speculates..."could this have been the grate over the basement window?"

[Ames]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
It's on pg. 369 in the HB Death of Innocence....."Our neighbor awakened her husband, who said a short time later he heard the sound of metal scraping against concrete." John speculates..."could this have been the grate over the basement window?"

What time of night did this supposedly happen? Does it say in the book? Did John think that maybe the intruder was removing the grate to get in...or was it later...when he supposedly was leaving the house? TIA

[WallyCleaver]

When I watch the video, I can hear some scraping sound, but one assumes the perp would be just a bit quiter than Lou was, under the circumstances. I really don't think the grate would have made much noise if lifted gently, and not banged into the brick. JMO

[Ames]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
When I watch the video, I can hear some scraping sound, but one assumes the perp would be just a bit quiter than Lou was, under the circumstances. I really don't think the grate would have made much noise if lifted gently, and not banged into the brick. JMO

That's what I thought, too. I am wondering if John went and LOUDLY removed the grate so that the neighbors WOULD hear..to fit his intruder theory. Why would a REAL intruder be THAT loud...so that neighbors could hear? That makes no sense...he would be so quiet...that it would be almost like he "wasn't even there"....as quiet as a mouse. Not trying to make as much noise as he possibly could. IMO....IF the neighbor DID actually hear that metal scraping sound....it was JOHN.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by Ames


What time of night did this supposedly happen? Does it say in the book? Did John think that maybe the intruder was removing the grate to get in...or was it later...when he supposedly was leaving the house? TIA Ames, the neighbor who claimed she heard a "bloodcurdling" scream awoke her husband, he heard the scraping shortly after he woke up! Wonder why these folks didn't get up and look out their window?

[Ames]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Ames, the neighbor who claimed she heard a "bloodcurdling" scream awoke her husband, he heard the scraping shortly after he woke up! Wonder why these folks didn't get up and look out their window?


Now THATS a good question. IMO...I don't believe that anybody heard JB scream...what do you think about it? He may have heard the scraping though....who knows. I think that the neighbor just threw the part in about the "bloodcurdling" scream just to make the story sound good. Some people like to embellish....it makes for a more interesting story. I think that IF SHE had of heard such a scream, she would have looked out the window....ohhhh...now HERES a thought....why didn't she CALL THE POLICE??? Geezzzz.....OH, and especially after her husband heard the scraping sound. And did SHE hear the scraping sound too...if not...then I wonder why? IMO STRANGE.....

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by Ames



Now THATS a good question. IMO...I don't believe that anybody heard JB scream...what do you think about it? He may have heard the scraping though....who knows. I think that the neighbor just threw the part in about the "bloodcurdling" scream just to make the story sound good. Some people like to embellish....it makes for a more interesting story. I think that IF SHE had of heard such a scream, she would have looked out the window....ohhhh...now HERES a thought....why didn't she CALL THE POLICE??? Geezzzz.....OH, and especially after her husband heard the scraping sound. And did SHE hear the scraping sound too...if not...then I wonder why? IMO STRANGE..... Yes, this whole case is strange....I was wondering about the lady, too! I think she must have heard something that scared her or she wouldn't have woke her husband.........I'm certain she didn't realize there was a murder happening next door, but when we hear scary or very unusual noises in our neighborhood we do get up and check! :confused: Did your little one have fun trick r treating last night? We had a little less than 50, usually we have more, hubby and I enjoy seeing some of the creative costumes! :)

[Ames]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Yes, this whole case is strange....I was wondering about the lady, too! I think she must have heard something that scared her or she wouldn't have woke her husband.........I'm certain she didn't realize there was a murder happening next door, but when we hear scary or very unusual noises in our neighborhood we do get up and check! :confused: Did your little one have fun trick r treating last night? We had a little less than 50, usually we have more, hubby and I enjoy seeing some of the creative costumes! :)

Boy...you can say THAT again...this is probably the strangest case in history. The scream...IF she heard one...could also fit the RDI theory...because it could have been Patsy, after realizing that she (or John) had knocked JB unconscious with the accidental blow to the head...and probably thought that she was dead. I am wondering though, if there really WAS a scream. Her not looking out the window to see what was going on, especially after her husband heard the scraping sound...is a bit weird. I would have called the police if I had of heard those sounds. But, thats just me. YES...thank you...my little girl had fun. She has a virus, and a 103 degree fever...BUT she wanted to go anyway...SO..we were only out about 15 min. she came home with a whopping...TEN pieces of candy...LOL Well...at least she got to go...my husband tried to talk me out letting her go because it was SOOO cold. She was just so excited...I just didn't have the heart to tell her that she couldn't go. I told her that she would get more candy next year. And she is ALREADY talking about it.....LOL

[LindaA]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Ames, the neighbor who claimed she heard a "bloodcurdling" scream awoke her husband, he heard the scraping shortly after he woke up! Wonder why these folks didn't get up and look out their window?

Do you folks remember the case in NYC about the young woman who was attacked on the street and left for dead? She managed to drag herself to the front door of an apartment building when the perp returned and finished her off while over 30 people peeked out their windows at it. Eventually one -- but only one-- called the police. If someone had called when this first happened, she could have been saved. I believe her name ws Kitty Genovese.

So if that is possible, then this couple not calling the police after hearing what they did is more understandable. I'm sure they thought there was a reasonable explanation.

[Ames]

Originally posted by LindaA


Do you folks remember the case in NYC about the young woman who was attacked on the street and left for dead? She managed to drag herself to the front door of an apartment building when the perp returned and finished her off while over 30 people peeked out their windows at it. Eventually one -- but only one-- called the police. If someone had called when this first happened, she could have been saved. I believe her name ws Kitty Genovese.

So if that is possible, then this couple not calling the police after hearing what they did is more understandable. I'm sure they thought there was a reasonable explanation.

I had never heard that story before. That is SO sad!!

You do have to remember that this was Boulder, Colorado where there was NO crime...so, hearing a blood curdling scream, and a scraping sound, would cause someone to look and see where it was coming from. In NYC...from what I hear....crime happens all the time, and thats why people are immuned to it, and turn a deaf ear..they do not want to get involved. IMO

[WallyCleaver]

The video was ineresting. The grate appears to be hinged. Maybe not, but Lou is lifting it as if it has a hinge on the side closest to the house.

I had always assumed it just lifted out.

[LindaA]

Ames, what you say about NYC is right. My daughter and son-in-law lived there for several years. One night someone was shot right outside their apt. building as my son-in-law was coming home.

However, where murder is not a routine thing, people might dismiss strange sounds as something else -- something less threatening. When you are awakened from a deep sleep you tend not to be sure if you really heard something or dreamed it.

[Ames]

Originally posted by LindaA
Ames, what you say about NYC is right. My daughter and son-in-law lived there for several years. One night someone was shot right outside their apt. building as my son-in-law was coming home.

However, where murder is not a routine thing, people might dismiss strange sounds as something else -- something less threatening. When you are awakened from a deep sleep you tend not to be sure if you really heard something or dreamed it.

Yeah, that is true about what you said about being awakened from a deep sleep after hearing a noise. I have done that before...heard something and just dismissed it as a dream. I was just thinking that if she heard a scream...and then she woke her husband, who said that he had heard a scraping sound....that with the BOTH of them hearing something, they had to have known that it wasn't a dream. IMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by Ames


I had never heard that story before. That is SO sad!!

You do have to remember that this was Boulder, Colorado where there was NO crime...so, hearing a blood curdling scream, and a scraping sound, would cause someone to look and see where it was coming from. In NYC...from what I hear....crime happens all the time, and thats why people are immuned to it, and turn a deaf ear..they do not want to get involved. IMO

Hey don't pick on NYC and crime doesn't happen as often as you think. Here's the ranking of the cities.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921299.html

Kitty Genovese's murder happened in 1964 and people did not intentionally turn away from the crime. Many didn't recognize that it was a cry for help.

Genovese had driven home in the early morning of March 13, 1964. Arriving home at about 3:15 a.m. and parking about 100 feet (30 m) from her apartment's door, she was approached by a man named Winston Moseley. Moseley ran after her and quickly overtook her, stabbing her twice in the back. When Genovese screamed out, her cries were heard by several neighbors; but on a cold night with the windows closed only a few of them recognized the sound as a cry for help. When one of the neighbors shouted at the attacker, "Let that girl alone!", Moseley ran away and Genovese slowly made her way towards her own apartment around the end of the building. She was seriously injured but now out of view of those few who may have had reason to believe she was in need of help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

[Athena]

Originally posted by LindaA
Ames, what you say about NYC is right. My daughter and son-in-law lived there for several years. One night someone was shot right outside their apt. building as my son-in-law was coming home.

However, where murder is not a routine thing, people might dismiss strange sounds as something else -- something less threatening. When you are awakened from a deep sleep you tend not to be sure if you really heard something or dreamed it.

Melanie Stanton was very clear about that scream even to the detail she believed it to be a young child during her initial interview and so was her husband about the metal scraping sound. I believe they did not want to get involved and then she said it was "negative energy" whatever the heck that is. JMO

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena


Hey don't pick on NYC and crime doesn't happen as often as you think. Here's the ranking of the cities.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921299.html

Kitty Genovese's murder happened in 1964 and people did not intentionally turn away from the crime. Many didn't recognize that it was a cry for help.

Genovese had driven home in the early morning of March 13, 1964. Arriving home at about 3:15 a.m. and parking about 100 feet (30 m) from her apartment's door, she was approached by a man named Winston Moseley. Moseley ran after her and quickly overtook her, stabbing her twice in the back. When Genovese screamed out, her cries were heard by several neighbors; but on a cold night with the windows closed only a few of them recognized the sound as a cry for help. When one of the neighbors shouted at the attacker, "Let that girl alone!", Moseley ran away and Genovese slowly made her way towards her own apartment around the end of the building. She was seriously injured but now out of view of those few who may have had reason to believe she was in need of help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

When the most dangerous cities ranking came out the other day, they talked about it on the local news. I'm in St. Louis. I believe we came in first in seven different catagories - murder, rape, etc. They interviewed people in the Central West End. They said they sleep on the floor to avoid being shot by a stray bullet through the window.

[LindaA]

I don't believe the point is arguable that Boulder is less used to murders that people in big cities. IIRC, the Ramsey murder was the first in that town in that whole year. Murder wouldn't be the first thing that occurred to people.

I read a book about the Genovese murder years ago, and it presented a slightly different picture. When they were interviewed by police afterwards many people said they just didn't want to get involved or feared the perp would come back after them or have someone else do so.

[LindaA]

If you are interested, check the Crime Library description of the Genovese murder, esp. Chapter 3. It gives much more detail.

[Athena]

Originally posted by LindaA
I don't believe the point is arguable that Boulder is less used to murders that people in big cities. IIRC, the Ramsey murder was the first in that town in that whole year. Murder wouldn't be the first thing that occurred to people.

I read a book about the Genovese murder years ago, and it presented a slightly different picture. When they were interviewed by police afterwards many people said they just didn't want to get involved or feared the perp would come back after them or have someone else do so.

Did you know that a murder was committed the beginning of December 1996 but did not get much publicity? This woman was apparently killed and dumped into a construction hole but her cause of death was listed as "exposure". Interesting video and newspaper article on the BPDs problems BEFORE JBR's death:

"There were two murders in Boulder in '96. One everyone knows about, and the other hardly anyone. This is about the other one."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVUvExx6SD8

And not according to the plan that allowed the early-December death of Lorraine Lawrence--her body found in a construction-site hole, under a lid of plywood--to be filed under natural causes ("exposure"), so as not blemish Boulder's then-perfect record.

http://www.westword.com/Issues/1997-06-19/news/columns.html

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by Athena

<snip>

Augustin and Gray are convinced that the DNA sample belongs to JonBenet's killer, because of a small amount of matching DNA that also was found under the 6-year-old murder victim's fingernails.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

And they are the only ones who have said the DNAs match. No one who is not associated with the Ramseys or repeating what was said by those associated with the Ramseys (in the case of Erin Moriarty) has ever said the fingernail and underwear DNA match.

There isn't enough markers of the fingernail DNA to be matched to anything. There's a reason there's a standard number of markers needed to make a conclusive match with DNA - and it's because DNA is similar enough to appear to be a match unless you have a certain number of markers. CODIS wants 13 loci to make conclusive matches.

I understand there were only 2 (though some have said 6) markers available with the fingernail DNA. That isn't enough to match it conclusively to anything, people.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Ames


I think that it means that she didn't hear anything afterall...and she was trying to backpedal....saying that it could "have been JB's negative energy". What a weird thing to say....

Yes weird but typical Boulderite. Very new age aromatherapy harmonic convergence hemp product promoting.... Boulderite.

:D

[Athena]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Ames, the neighbor who claimed she heard a "bloodcurdling" scream awoke her husband, he heard the scraping shortly after he woke up! Wonder why these folks didn't get up and look out their window?

What would they a have seen LadyFisher? The basement windows/grates were in the back of house.

[Athena]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


And they are the only ones who have said the DNAs match. No one who is not associated with the Ramseys or repeating what was said by those associated with the Ramseys (in the case of Erin Moriarty) has ever said the fingernail and underwear DNA match.

There isn't enough markers of the fingernail DNA to be matched to anything. There's a reason there's a standard number of markers needed to make a conclusive match with DNA - and it's because DNA is similar enough to appear to be a match unless you have a certain number of markers. CODIS wants 13 loci to make conclusive matches.

I understand there were only 2 (though some have said 6) markers available with the fingernail DNA. That isn't enough to match it conclusively to anything, people.

I'm not going to post another link but you don't need 13 markers for positive ID. You only need the full 13 markers for paternity testing. You can make a match with 10. JMO

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


And they are the only ones who have said the DNAs match. No one who is not associated with the Ramseys or repeating what was said by those associated with the Ramseys (in the case of Erin Moriarty) has ever said the fingernail and underwear DNA match.

There isn't enough markers of the fingernail DNA to be matched to anything. There's a reason there's a standard number of markers needed to make a conclusive match with DNA - and it's because DNA is similar enough to appear to be a match unless you have a certain number of markers. CODIS wants 13 loci to make conclusive matches.

I understand there were only 2 (though some have said 6) markers available with the fingernail DNA. That isn't enough to match it conclusively to anything, people.

Thankyou!! Its so important that this fact be established as it is the same info DA Lacy tried to explain at the press conference this may be artifact DNA nothing to do with the murder. Those who claim this were paid by the Ramseys. Including Lou Smit went over to working for them. Regardless of how you believe that is fact. If the DNA could solve it its hard to believe CODIS wouldn't have done it in 10 years. Unless the murderer of JonBenet killed once never to commit any other crime again murder or otherwise.

[MaryD]

Sorry to digress but I just found this interesting.

I know a lot of folks believe that S.B.T.C is a ludicrous acronym because there is no way to prove its significance. But I for one don’t believe it was written randomly. I think for someone to bother writing it there had to be some significance to the writer. In fact I find it odd that Patsy would tell the 911 operator that it was signed S.B.T.C when she herself claimed she didn’t read the note in it’s entirety. The other aspect I find curious is that it followed the word Victory. This leads me to believe the two must be associated in some way. I thought about the fact that a Victory would indicate that some battle had been won. When I applied that concept to Patsy what came to mind was her battle with cancer. JMO. So I looked up SBT and cancer and this is what I found. Just something to contemplate without any evidentiary relevance.

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/64/19/6915

Ovarian serous borderline tumors (SBTs), putative precursors of low-grade serous carcinomas, are among the few human neoplasms with a high frequency of activating mutations in BRAF and KRAS genes. However, it remains unclear as to how these mutations contribute to tumor progression. To address this issue, we compared the mutational status of BRAF and KRAS in both SBTs and the adjacent epithelium from cystadenomas, the presumed precursor of SBTs. We found that three of eight SBTs contained mutant BRAF, and four SBTs contained mutant KRAS. All specimens with mutant BRAF harbored wild-type KRAS and vice versa. Thus, seven (88%) of eight SBTs contained either BRAF or KRAS mutations. The same mutations detected in SBTs were also identified in the cystadenoma epithelium adjacent to the SBTs in six (86%) of seven informative cases. As compared to SBTs, the cystadenoma epithelium, like ovarian surface epithelium, lacks cytological atypia. Our findings provide cogent evidence that mutations of BRAF and KRAS occur in the epithelium of cystadenomas adjacent to SBTs and strongly suggest that they are very early events in tumorigenesis, preceding the development of SBT.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by MaryD
Sorry to digress but I just found this interesting.

I know a lot of folks believe that S.B.T.C is a ludicrous acronym because there is no way to prove its significance. But I for one don’t believe it was written randomly. I think for someone to bother writing it there had to be some significance to the writer. In fact I find it odd that Patsy would tell the 911 operator that it was signed S.B.T.C when she herself claimed she didn’t read the note in it’s entirety. The other aspect I find curious is that it followed the word Victory. This leads me to believe the two must be associated in some way. I thought about the fact that a Victory would indicate that some battle had been won. When I applied that concept to Patsy what came to mind was her battle with cancer. JMO. So I looked up SBT and cancer and this is what I found. Just something to contemplate without any evidentiary relevance.

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/64/19/6915

Ovarian serous borderline tumors (SBTs), putative precursors of low-grade serous carcinomas, are among the few human neoplasms with a high frequency of activating mutations in BRAF and KRAS genes. However, it remains unclear as to how these mutations contribute to tumor progression. To address this issue, we compared the mutational status of BRAF and KRAS in both SBTs and the adjacent epithelium from cystadenomas, the presumed precursor of SBTs. We found that three of eight SBTs contained mutant BRAF, and four SBTs contained mutant KRAS. All specimens with mutant BRAF harbored wild-type KRAS and vice versa. Thus, seven (88%) of eight SBTs contained either BRAF or KRAS mutations. The same mutations detected in SBTs were also identified in the cystadenoma epithelium adjacent to the SBTs in six (86%) of seven informative cases. As compared to SBTs, the cystadenoma epithelium, like ovarian surface epithelium, lacks cytological atypia. Our findings provide cogent evidence that mutations of BRAF and KRAS occur in the epithelium of cystadenomas adjacent to SBTs and strongly suggest that they are very early events in tumorigenesis, preceding the development of SBT.

Hi Mary. That's an interesting read but what would the "C" stand for? Not sure how or why killing JB would be a Victory against cancer or why she would chose to even think a thing like that at the moment but who's to say?

[Athena]

Originally posted by MaryD
Sorry to digress but I just found this interesting.

I know a lot of folks believe that S.B.T.C is a ludicrous acronym because there is no way to prove its significance. But I for one don’t believe it was written randomly. I think for someone to bother writing it there had to be some significance to the writer. In fact I find it odd that Patsy would tell the 911 operator that it was signed S.B.T.C when she herself claimed she didn’t read the note in it’s entirety. The other aspect I find curious is that it followed the word Victory. This leads me to believe the two must be associated in some way. I thought about the fact that a Victory would indicate that some battle had been won. When I applied that concept to Patsy what came to mind was her battle with cancer. JMO. So I looked up SBT and cancer and this is what I found. Just something to contemplate without any evidentiary relevance.

<snip> Noone's thoughts about what SBTC could represent I woud find ludicrous - including yours. I do however want to point out that Patsy did hesitate before answering the operator's question about who signed the note. It was not an automatic response. JMO

[MaryD]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


Hi Mary. That's an interesting read but what would the "C" stand for? Not sure how or why killing JB would be a Victory against cancer or why she would chose to even think a thing like that at the moment but who's to say?

Hi WW1.

To your first question: well maybe either carcinoma or cystadenomas. To your second question: if the R's were involved I can't imagine any of it being considered a Victory. But if it was written bogusly the writer could inadvertanly use words or phrases significant in their own minds. I think between all the pageants and the cancer "Victory" could be an important word in Patsys life. Of course this is all just a hypothesis.

[MaryD]

Originally posted by Athena


<snip> Noone's thoughts about what SBTC could represent I woud find ludicrous - including yours. I do however want to point out that Patsy did hesitate before answering the operator's question about who signed the note. It was not an automatic response. JMO


Hi Athena

I'm glad you feel that way cause I have many more SBTC's floating through my head. Here's another just for the heck of it.

SLOW BOAT TO CHINA

it was a song written first in 1948 the words are


Well there's no verse to this song
'Cause I don't want to wait a moment too long
To say that I'd love to get you on a slow boat to China
All by myself alone
To get you to keep you in my arms evermore
Leave all your lovers weeping on the far-away shore

Well out on the briny with a moon big and shiny
Melting your heart of stone
Well I'd love to get you on a slow boat to China
All to myself alone

Well I'd love to get you on a slow boat to China
All to myself alone
On a real slow boat
On a slow slow boat to China

[Athena]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


And they are the only ones who have said the DNAs match. No one who is not associated with the Ramseys or repeating what was said by those associated with the Ramseys (in the case of Erin Moriarty) has ever said the fingernail and underwear DNA match.

There isn't enough markers of the fingernail DNA to be matched to anything. There's a reason there's a standard number of markers needed to make a conclusive match with DNA - and it's because DNA is similar enough to appear to be a match unless you have a certain number of markers. CODIS wants 13 loci to make conclusive matches.

I understand there were only 2 (though some have said 6) markers available with the fingernail DNA. That isn't enough to match it conclusively to anything, people.

Maybe because I live in NY and am familiar with what had to be done to ID the WTC victims; I know that technology has improved immensely since 9/11/01 as a result of all the leading forensic scientists gathering in NY to figure out a way to ID body pieces that were severely contaminated and degraded - you do not need 13 loci to make a match and in NY the minimum loci required is 4 loci. I'll go look for a link but I watched many of these programs disussing what it took to ID the WTC victims and as a result it immensely upgraded DNA technology. If you are comparing a sample within a closed group (in this case scrapings from under the fingernails to a spot in JBRs underwear) maybe it can be matched.

I also have read that the contamination of the fingernail DNA was because of using clippers that were not sterile. So are they talking about bacterial contamination or cross-contamination? There is a difference as bacterial contamination can be isolated.

The fingernail DNA by itself would have probably been useless in 1996-1997 but I don't think that is the case now if it were in fact matched to the DNA in the underwear in 2003. I haven't seen the forensic reports on that -- have you? Maybe Lou Smit did. I'm not asking this question to be argumentative - just if you have links to the info you stated above.

In the meantime I will look for a link to the improved technology of DNA testing.

[Athena]

Originally posted by MaryD



Hi Athena

I'm glad you feel that way cause I have many more SBTC's floating through my head. Here's another just for the heck of it.

SLOW BOAT TO CHINA

it was a song written first in 1948 the words are


Well there's no verse to this song
'Cause I don't want to wait a moment too long
To say that I'd love to get you on a slow boat to China
All by myself alone
To get you to keep you in my arms evermore
Leave all your lovers weeping on the far-away shore

Well out on the briny with a moon big and shiny
Melting your heart of stone
Well I'd love to get you on a slow boat to China
All to myself alone

Well I'd love to get you on a slow boat to China
All to myself alone
On a real slow boat
On a slow slow boat to China

:lol: OK Mary - now wait a minute - guess I should change my opinion on what can be considered ludricous 'cause this is nuts but you did make me laugh!

[Athena]

Originally posted by Ames


What time of night did this supposedly happen? Does it say in the book? Did John think that maybe the intruder was removing the grate to get in...or was it later...when he supposedly was leaving the house? TIA

Approximately 2AM the metal grate and the scream was heard so it probably wouldn't have been when the perp was leaving. JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


And they are the only ones who have said the DNAs match. No one who is not associated with the Ramseys or repeating what was said by those associated with the Ramseys (in the case of Erin Moriarty) has ever said the fingernail and underwear DNA match.

There isn't enough markers of the fingernail DNA to be matched to anything. There's a reason there's a standard number of markers needed to make a conclusive match with DNA - and it's because DNA is similar enough to appear to be a match unless you have a certain number of markers. CODIS wants 13 loci to make conclusive matches.

I understand there were only 2 (though some have said 6) markers available with the fingernail DNA. That isn't enough to match it conclusively to anything, people.

PCR Analysis
PCR (polymerase chain reaction) is used to make millions of exact copies of DNA from a biological sample. DNA amplification with PCR allows DNA analysis on biological samples as small as a few skin cells. With RFLP, DNA samples would have to be about the size of a quarter. The ability of PCR to amplify such tiny quantities of DNA enables even highly degraded samples to be analyzed. Great care, however, must be taken to prevent contamination with other biological materials during the identifying, collecting, and preserving of a sample.

STR Analysis
Short tandem repeat (STR) technology is used to evaluate specific regions (loci) within nuclear DNA. Variability in STR regions can be used to distinguish one DNA profile from another. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) uses a standard set of 13 specific STR regions for CODIS. CODIS is a software program that operates local, state, and national databases of DNA profiles from convicted offenders, unsolved crime scene evidence, and missing persons. The odds that two individuals will have the same 13-loci DNA profile is about one in one billion.

Mitochondrial DNA Analysis
Mitochondrial DNA analysis (mtDNA) can be used to examine the DNA from samples that cannot be analyzed by RFLP or STR. Nuclear DNA must be extracted from samples for use in RFLP, PCR, and STR; however, mtDNA analysis uses DNA extracted from another cellular organelle called a mitochondrion. While older biological samples that lack nucleated cellular material, such as hair, bones, and teeth, cannot be analyzed with STR and RFLP, they can be analyzed with mtDNA. In the investigation of cases that have gone unsolved for many years, mtDNA is extremely valuable.

All mothers have the same mitochondrial DNA as their daughters. This is because the mitochondria of each new embryo comes from the mother's egg cell. The father's sperm contributes only nuclear DNA. Comparing the mtDNA profile of unidentified remains with the profile of a potential maternal relative can be an important technique in missing person investigations.

Y-Chromosome Analysis
The Y chromosome is passed directly from father to son, so the analysis of genetic markers on the Y chromosome is especially useful for tracing relationships among males or for analyzing biological evidence involving multiple male contributors.


http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/forensics.shtml

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


Hi Mary. That's an interesting read but what would the "C" stand for? Not sure how or why killing JB would be a Victory against cancer or why she would chose to even think a thing like that at the moment but who's to say?

c could stand for cancer or carcinoma....... This rather could blow your mind when put in context!!

[MaryD]

Originally posted by Athena


:lol: OK Mary - now wait a minute - guess I should change my opinion on what can be considered ludricous 'cause this is nuts but you did make me laugh!

S he B elieves T hats C omical!!! :shrug:

[Ames]

Originally posted by Athena


Hey don't pick on NYC and crime doesn't happen as often as you think.

<snipped>


I wasn't picking on NYC...I happen to like New York....I was just stating that there was more crime THERE than in Boulder...and with ONE crime happening in 1996....you can't argue with those statistics.

[Ames]

Originally posted by Athena


What would they a have seen LadyFisher? The basement windows/grates were in the back of house.

Hey, I know that this question isn't for me...but, even though they wouldn't have seen anything....they STILL should have looked anyway...because they had no idea WHERE the sounds were coming from. I really don't think that the neighbor heard a scream...especially since she talked about it being MAYBE JB's negative energy. Sounds like she is trying to backpedal. Was it a scream, or was it negative energy? I don't think that it was a scream, or she wouldn't have added that negative energy bull. IMO

[Ames]

Originally posted by Athena


Approximately 2AM the metal grate and the scream was heard so it probably wouldn't have been when the perp was leaving. JMO

Okay, so the scream and the metal grate were heard at 2AM...at the SAME time, and it wasn't the perp leaving? So what was it? It couldn't have been the perp entering...if it was at 2Am.. I am just trying to figure out WHY the grate would have been moved at 2am, if the perp was NOT leaving. And WHY the sound of the grate moving, and the scream happened at the same time. I thought that they happened separately. Athena...do you have the answer to my question??....TIA....

[MaryD]

Originally posted by Ames


Okay, so the scream and the metal grate were heard at 2AM...at the SAME time, and it wasn't the perp leaving? So what was it? It couldn't have been the perp entering...if it was at 2Am.. I am just trying to figure out WHY the grate would have been moved at 2am, if the perp was NOT leaving. And WHY the sound of the grate moving, and the scream happened at the same time. I thought that they happened separately. Athena...do you have the answer to my question??....TIA....

Sorry to interject, but I have read some theories that the metal on gravel or cement sounds could have been the paint cans in the basement being moved across the basement floor. I don't really know if the basement floors were bare or whether that noise could be loud enough to emit outdoors, but it's another theory.

[shill]

It could have been anything in the neighborhood making that noise. I don't think their testimony helps IDI or RDI.

[LindaA]

Originally posted by Ames


Okay, so the scream and the metal grate were heard at 2AM...at the SAME time, and it wasn't the perp leaving? So what was it? It couldn't have been the perp entering...if it was at 2Am.. I am just trying to figure out WHY the grate would have been moved at 2am, if the perp was NOT leaving. And WHY the sound of the grate moving, and the scream happened at the same time. I thought that they happened separately. Athena...do you have the answer to my question??....TIA....

Excellent point.

[lucky13]

Personally I don't believe that any neighbor heard ANYthing. ( I thought that I had read that the scream had been totally discounted? ) It's not like the houses were that close together. Did they all have paper-thin walls? Were their windows open on that freezing cold winter night? I could believe someone hearing something if it happened on the outside of the house, but not from the inside.
MOO

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by Athena


What would they a have seen LadyFisher? The basement windows/grates were in the back of house. Aw, heck, Althena..I don't know...I'm just a senile old woman that can't read and asks too many ?s! What can I say! :lol:

[Athena]

LadyFisher: Thought you might be interested in this - from another forum. Seems to match JD's profile:

The BPD failed to investigate, nor did they even know about, a Ramsey family friend who belonged to a suspicious foreign-oriented organization. The friend regularly provided care for JonBenet. The killer(s) of JonBenet had left behind a 3-page ransom note in which they identified themselves as representing "a small foreign faction".

Colorado University student Nathan Inouye, who was a member of what could be considered "a small foreign faction", regularly baby-sat and drove JonBenet to school in 1996. Inouye belonged to the 29-member Asian Pacific American Coalition, normally referred to as APAC, at the University.

APAC at Colorado was a politically liberal pro-active group of students who suddenly and suspiciously disbanded their organization just weeks after JonBenet was murdered. APAC's stated goals in its charter was to advance the social and political well-being of Asian Americans. However, among these goals was a perception that violence against Asian American women, including rape and murder, was going unsolved and unpunished in the U.S.

Nathan Inouye, who in 1996 lived at the home of Glen and Susan Stine, provided care for 9-year-old Doug while the parents worked at the University. Glen was vice president and Susan was a director. The Ramseys and the Stines were close friends and their sons, Burke and Doug, were best friends.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=203&forum=DCForumID61

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by Athena
LadyFisher: Thought you might be interested in this - from another forum. Seems to match JD's profile:

The BPD failed to investigate, nor did they even know about, a Ramsey family friend who belonged to a suspicious foreign-oriented organization. The friend regularly provided care for JonBenet. The killer(s) of JonBenet had left behind a 3-page ransom note in which they identified themselves as representing "a small foreign faction".

Colorado University student Nathan Inouye, who was a member of what could be considered "a small foreign faction", regularly baby-sat and drove JonBenet to school in 1996. Inouye belonged to the 29-member Asian Pacific American Coalition, normally referred to as APAC, at the University.

APAC at Colorado was a politically liberal pro-active group of students who suddenly and suspiciously disbanded their organization just weeks after JonBenet was murdered. APAC's stated goals in its charter was to advance the social and political well-being of Asian Americans. However, among these goals was a perception that violence against Asian American women, including rape and murder, was going unsolved and unpunished in the U.S.

Nathan Inouye, who in 1996 lived at the home of Glen and Susan Stine, provided care for 9-year-old Doug while the parents worked at the University. Glen was vice president and Susan was a director. The Ramseys and the Stines were close friends and their sons, Burke and Doug, were best friends.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=203&forum=DCForumID61

I'm sorry, but just how in the world is APAC, an organization of universtiy students, to be considered a foreign faction?

What precisely was suspicious about the disbanding of the group? -if in fact it actually was disbanded.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ro/www/AsianPacificAmericanCoalition/

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I'm sorry, but just how in the world is APAC, an organization of universtiy students, to be considered a foreign faction?

What precisely was suspicious about the disbanding of the group? -if in fact it actually was disbanded.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ro/www/AsianPacificAmericanCoalition/

Sorry they were at least to some extent investigated. Nothing was found to connect them to the crime. That was investigated as throughly as the Stines. :eek: Maybe they should reinvestigate though if the Stines were involved Susan was caught doing some email shenanigans etc. That is my opinion.

[LindaA]

Last time I checked, Wally, Asia was not part of the US. Students with Asian heritage who identify strongly with that heritage could consider themselves to be a small foreign faction.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by LindaA
Last time I checked, Wally, Asia was not part of the US. Students with Asian heritage who identify strongly with that heritage could consider themselves to be a small foreign faction.

Last time I checked Linda, people of Asian heritage born in the US are as American as anyone else. APAC doesn't limit it's memership to American born asians, so far as I know, but they are not excluded either. A name such as Nathan, strongly suggests to me that Mr. Inouye is an American by birth. Nathan is not a common first name in Japan.

You may as well try to claim that an association of Hispanic students is foreign, or that an African-American student association is foreign.

My wife is Asian, and naturally our son is half asian. My son belonged to some asian student groups while in college. I'm not aware they considered themselves to be a foreign faction.

Just silly.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


Sorry they were at least to some extent investigated. Nothing was found to connect them to the crime. That was investigated as throughly as the Stines. :eek: Maybe they should reinvestigate though if the Stines were involved Susan was caught doing some email shenanigans etc. That is my opinion.

Link please. You have yet to post one link since you have been on this board to my knowledge. To state something as fact and then add that it is your opinion is misleading. JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I'm sorry, but just how in the world is APAC, an organization of universtiy students, to be considered a foreign faction?

What precisely was suspicious about the disbanding of the group? -if in fact it actually was disbanded.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/ro/www/AsianPacificAmericanCoalition/

Unfortunately according to the poster's comments the website he was referring to was removed. Just to be clear, I just thought it interesting that he was not investigated not validating the content and he was a student as LadyFisher believes the killer may have been. JMO

[WallyCleaver]

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/index.html

The APAC link doesn't work, so apparently it was disbanded, or they didn't bother making their own website.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by Athena


Unfortunately according to the poster's comments the website he was referring to was removed. Just to be clear, I just thought it interesting that he was not investigated not validating the content and he was a student as LadyFisher believes the killer may have been. JMO

How do you know he wasn't investigated? Link?
(We are talking about Mr. Inouye right?)

He happened to be of asian ancestery and happened to belong to a then existing Asain student association. Doesn't seem like much to me. Certainly nothing about APAC qualifies it as a foreign faction.

[Athena]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


How do you know he wasn't investigated? Link?
(We are talking about Mr. Inouye right?)

He happened to be of asian ancestery and happened to belong to a then existing Asain student association. Doesn't seem like much to me. Certainly nothing about APAC qualifies it as a foreign faction.

Sorry Wally. He was a caretaker for Susan Stine's son and also drove JBR and Burke to school. I'm not accusing him of anything and certainly not because he's Asian (I am a mutt). Just seems strange that the BPD seemed to not know about him at all until after the Ramseys wrote their book:

19 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, your
20 wife told us that there was a college
21 student that was staying with the Steins, I
22 believe, named Nathan Inouwe?
23 MR. WOOD: It was a reference in
24 the book.
25 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Okay. Had you,
0090
1 prior to the murder of your daughter, had
2 you had any contact with him?
3 A. Yeah. We would see him at their
4 house. He would drive the kids to school
5 occasionally in a carpool, Patsy would take
6 them, sometimes, Susan would sometimes or
7 Nathan would take them.
8 Q. Was there anything unusual about
9 his conduct -- and I am asking for your
10 contemporaneous impression, and then I'm going
11 to ask you about the post-murder impression.
12 Your contemporaneous impression of Mr. Inouwe
13 I assume was favorable if you let him drive
14 your kids to school?
15 A. Yes. He was a very, very kind,
16 nice person.
17 Q. Keeping in mind that you told us
18 that you are suspicious of everyone, is there
19 anything in particular about Mr. Inouwe,
20 using the power of hindsight, that causes you
21 today to be particularly suspicious of him?
22 A. Nothing specifically in terms of
23 his actions or what he said. Have I
24 eliminated him? No, I haven't. I thought
25 about that from time to time, but I don't
0091
1 consider him of strong, strong interest.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-John-Interview-Complete.htm

[Athena]

Hmmm..... I also withdraw the comment that he was not investigated because here it seems the BPD do want to contact him and ask Patsy for info.

Shame on me for not following my own rules to do the research first. :o

4 MS. HARMER: Mrs. Ramsey and Mr.
5 Wood, I am going to cite a page in the
6 book, 153.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) You mention a
9 kid by the name of Nathan that was living
10 with the Steins. Was he living with them
11 prior to December of '96?
12 A. Yes, he was.
13 Q. And at any time did he look after
14 Burke or JonBenet?
15 A. He would, on occasion, take them
16 to school in the morning.
17 Q. Do you know anything more about
18 him, his last name?
19 A. Inouwe, Nathan Inouwe.
20 Q. Do you know how to spell that?
21 A. I-n-o-u -- maybe y-e or -e.
22 Q. Is he a white male?
23 A. He is American, but of Japanese
24 descent, I believe.
25 Q. How old is he?
0317
1 A. He has graduated now and is doing
2 missionary work, I think. Susan would know
3 exactly where he is, but at that time he was
4 a college junior or senior?
5 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood, can you
6 facilitate getting the information to us so
7 we can contact him?
8 MR. WOOD: I think we said
9 yesterday, if you all make a hit list for
10 me, so to speak, point by point what you
11 want me to do, and we will do it.
12 MS. HARMER: That is it.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

[LindaA]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


Last time I checked Linda, people of Asian heritage born in the US are as American as anyone else. APAC doesn't limit it's memership to American born asians, so far as I know, but they are not excluded either. A name such as Nathan, strongly suggests to me that Mr. Inouye is an American by birth. Nathan is not a common first name in Japan.

You may as well try to claim that an association of Hispanic students is foreign, or that an African-American student association is foreign.

My wife is Asian, and naturally our son is half asian. My son belonged to some asian student groups while in college. I'm not aware they considered themselves to be a foreign faction.

Just silly.

Silly, again. Don't judge all people of foreign heritage by what your family feel and do. Talk about silly! Many feel strongly about their heritage. I believe the 9/11 terrorists lived among us for some time, but they obviously never lost their allegience to their heritage.

Many who become citizens do as well. Some second generation Americans identify very strongly with their heritage to the point that they are militant. Colleges are prime breeding grounds for this. Some organizations are pro-American in their outlook, but others are not. How could you believe they would all be the same? talk about tunnel vision!

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by LindaA


Silly, again. Don't judge all people of foreign heritage by what your family feel and do. Talk about silly! Many feel strongly about their heritage. I believe the 9/11 terrorists lived among us for some time, but they obviously never lost their allegience to their heritage.

Many who become citizens do as well. Some second generation Americans identify very strongly with their heritage to the point that they are militant. Colleges are prime breeding grounds for this. Some organizations are pro-American in their outlook, but others are not. How could you believe they would all be the same? talk about tunnel vision!

The silly refered to the idea of APAC as a foreign faction.

A group of asians from different countries are not going to think of themselves as a foreign faction because they don't really share an "Asian" identity - except to the extent that the larger American society lumps them together.

IOW, a Korean doesn't see himself as being similar to a Thai, nor does a Thai see herself as being in any way similar to a Pacific Islander.

And as for foreign, the APAC group isn't made up exclusively of foreign born asians. It's quite likely that Mr. Inouye's family has been in this country longer than yours or mine. Someone of Asian ancestory who's 3rd or 4th generation American doesn't think of themselves as foreign.

It has nothing to do with pride in one's heritage. I can be proud of Scots heritage, but I don't think belonging to a Scottish society in the US makes me a member of a foreign faction.

So you have a group composed of foreign born and native born asians, of different asian ancestory. Members of this group aren't going to think of themselves as a foreign faction hostile to the US.

Again, just silly.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Athena


Link please. You have yet to post one link since you have been on this board to my knowledge. To state something as fact and then add that it is your opinion is misleading. JMO

Well then you'd be wrong again Athena. I have posted several. Acandyrose the complete transcipt to the DA Lacy press conference one on DNA......lets see one more what was it.
It was transcript from Forumsforjustice. The only thing misleading in my opinion is your constantly saying there is never any links posted. You do post alot of informational links. nothing to do with the case much. Just subject matter. Nothing wrong with that as it all helps to understand how something might pertain. As to the one regarding the Asian thing was that on konformist...no .....mmmmmm I know I read something about Stines.....I'll have to hunt it down. I know that the context was the Stines had a student no come to think I think that was covered in Snclairs book. If you think for one minute I am searching links at after midnigt to please you ...you'll be waiting a while. I am not in a habit of posting a link regarding others information. Only my own if it warrants. This asian connection isn't mine I simply said I believe they were looked into along with the Stines in something had I read that pertained to investigation regarding the Stines. Are you denying Susan Stine played e mail shenanigans? Tsk.

[Coloradokares]

Since I am not sure where to start a new thread I'll just post a link here http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-7968

This is to a discussion of how Governor Elect Bill Ritters winning the election could impact the JonBenet murder investigation. For those of you who are not from Colorado you may recall Ritter's name in conjunction to assitance with the murder case. I think it might be a really good thing.

[Coloradokares]

JMHO. Links and general information are very easy to get. Google or hit the standard sites or just do a search. Right now I am going to have a more difficult time naming page numbers out of books till some of the standard fare for books makes it back into my local branch of the library. I want to let you know if I am putting forth something I'll provide the link. If I am responding right then and there to a post. A rubuttal if you will, like many of you I might post my thoughts right then and there with good intentions if you feel you need a link Seldom will I mind to go back through and provide one. However as far as I know you have to exit out of the ongoing response in order to bring up the site to copy and paste the link correct? Its not that I mind doing it. I am sure you all have this difficulty of knowing you have read something then going hmmmmmm was that in such and such a book. Or was that over on acandyrose or..... So you read your handwritten notes real quick then do cursory review of some links or newpaper articles whatever. I just want to say throwing out a tude just to throw a tude is very tiring. It does not get anyone anywhere . Its total negativity and not productive at all. Perhaps since this is not a new pastime for me.....and I have lived in the shadow of this since it was breaking local news I find a lot of posts that are put forth as fact that are so far from anything that Colorado locals know as the facts being reported on the case as it was on going I can't help but wonder if Orwells re write team satisfying Big Brothers doublespeak hasn't taken affect. All I ask is if you want a link let me know. If its fact youll get one. Most of what is getting posted is nothing more than debating various theories and expressing humble opinions. Sorry but those type of posts do not always have a link. If its opinion mine or someone elses if it applies I'll try real hard not to post till I get you a link. Even if the same o same o has been posted a hundred times before. I really think most forum posters should be up to date after 10 years of the facts. But if you still want the same ole links whatever. If its a book....I am not sure I consider any of the books to date Gospel regarding this matter. Still I am on the list to get alot of the books back to get page numbers to my notes. One thing I ask you to consider. Locally we lived this case. Not just read or viewed it. It was our first cup of coffee companion and our 10:00 pm news for years now. If you want some real solid info on this case. Julie Hayden is doing a special on Fox tomorrow night. It promises to be really good. Not sure what time slot its on. I'll check my local listings tomorrow evening. Julie Hayden was a local Investigative Reporter for ABC affliate at the time of the murder. Although she no longer works for that channel she is still to this day consulted regarding her work as an investigative reporter on the murder of JonBent. Still does a tremendous amount of work reporting on the murder of JonBenet. If you can its on the Fox channel. Not Fox News. FOX.

[LindaA]

Colorado,

I know I"m going to get bashed for this, but could you please use paragraphs in your longer posts? They are really hard to read and I know everyone is interested in what you are saying. Maybe no one else has this problem, but it would certainly help me. TIA.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by LindaA
Colorado,

I know I"m going to get bashed for this, but could you please use paragraphs in your longer posts? They are really hard to read and I know everyone is interested in what you are saying. Maybe no one else has this problem, but it would certainly help me. TIA.

Not a problem at all LindaA. Your right. It was late. I shouldn't even have gone to the puter that alone been cattle prodded into addressing yet again the link question. Please don't bash LindaA. She was right to bring it to my attention. Thanks LindaA.

Constructive criticism is always welcomed. Petty nitpicking is filed away in the file it belongs in. DELETE.

[shill]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

A group of asians from different countries are not going to think of themselves as a foreign faction because they don't really share an "Asian" identity - except to the extent that the larger American society lumps them together.


It has nothing to do with pride in one's heritage. I can be proud of Scots heritage, but I don't think belonging to a Scottish society in the US makes me a member of a foreign faction.

Since when has the U.S. gone to war with Scotland? No reason a Scottish heritage would leave you with resentment towards the U.S..
The U.S. has fought Korea, Japan, Vietnam, and many others.
We occupied the Philippines, and were apposed by guerilla groups there during the time of John Ramseys tour of duty there in Subic Bay. And the U.S. was asked to leave when the contract ran out, even at the loss of millions of dollars in revenue from the U.S. occupation. There seems to be some resentment from U.S. occupation there that could be handed down.
And the use of a garrote for execution is still legal in the Philippines. Subic Bay was also trying to promote itself as the next Silicon Valley.
IMO It could be someone from this APAC group.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by shill
Since when has the U.S. gone to war with Scotland? No reason a Scottish heritage would leave you with resentment towards the U.S..
The U.S. has fought Korea, Japan, Vietnam, and many others.
We occupied the Philippines, and were apposed by guerilla groups there during the time of John Ramseys tour of duty there in Subic Bay. And the U.S. was asked to leave when the contract ran out, even at the loss of millions of dollars in revenue from the U.S. occupation. There seems to be some resentment from U.S. occupation there that could be handed down.
And the use of a garrote for execution is still legal in the Philippines. Subic Bay was also trying to promote itself as the next Silicon Valley.
IMO It could be someone from this APAC group.

That comment was so foolish I don't even know where to begin. When have we ever fought all of Asia? And how many APAC members do you figure were from Asian countries hostile to the US?

We were not occupying the Philippines when JR was there. PI got it's independance in the late 1940s (1946 I believe) - on July 4th.

Again, APAC is merely a student group, basing membership on Asian heritage -whether foreign born or native born - and was also open to non-Asians who were interested in Asian culture. To call it a small foreign faction is stupid. One may as well call the association of Latino students a foreign faction - despite the fact that many of the members will be native born Americans.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by Athena
LadyFisher: Thought you might be interested in this - from another forum. Seems to match JD's profile:

The BPD failed to investigate, nor did they even know about, a Ramsey family friend who belonged to a suspicious foreign-oriented organization. The friend regularly provided care for JonBenet. The killer(s) of JonBenet had left behind a 3-page ransom note in which they identified themselves as representing "a small foreign faction".

Colorado University student Nathan Inouye, who was a member of what could be considered "a small foreign faction", regularly baby-sat and drove JonBenet to school in 1996. Inouye belonged to the 29-member Asian Pacific American Coalition, normally referred to as APAC, at the University.

APAC at Colorado was a politically liberal pro-active group of students who suddenly and suspiciously disbanded their organization just weeks after JonBenet was murdered. APAC's stated goals in its charter was to advance the social and political well-being of Asian Americans. However, among these goals was a perception that violence against Asian American women, including rape and murder, was going unsolved and unpunished in the U.S.

Nathan Inouye, who in 1996 lived at the home of Glen and Susan Stine, provided care for 9-year-old Doug while the parents worked at the University. Glen was vice president and Susan was a director. The Ramseys and the Stines were close friends and their sons, Burke and Doug, were best friends.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=203&forum=DCForumID61 Thank you, Althena...I see this post has caused quite a ruckus.......but, I don't believe that the perp probably was a foreigner or even had half foreign heritage....I think in the ransom note "the small foreign faction" was only put there by a single perp who was attempting to draw attention away from himself....there wasn't a small foreign faction imho, the perp watched too many movies.....the whole note was to draw attention from himself....but he gave away much of his own lifestyle and personality imo.....he was younger rather than older at the time of the murder, watched a lot of movies, identified with the villains, was a perverted psychopath! :seeya:

[bullmoose]

I agree,Ladyfisher, that whoever did the note and the murder was a perverted psychopath that knew exactly where the suspicion would fall. I just got done rereading Cornwall's Ripper book last night and it seems that human nature doesn't change much; in a number of the horrific murders she lists that were not attributed to the Ripper, it seems like whoever found the body was the person arrested and tried. Like the Ramseys, these unlucky men would be considered prime suspects since they were at the scene of the crime; therefore the reasoning went, they must have done it. I wonder if any of the English Constablary ever came to the US and got jobs as cops for the BPD? The pattern sure looks the same, to me, IMHO

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Thank you, Althena...I see this post has caused quite a ruckus.......but, I don't believe that the perp probably was a foreigner or even had half foreign heritage....I think in the ransom note "the small foreign faction" was only put there by a single perp who was attempting to draw attention away from himself....there wasn't a small foreign faction imho, the perp watched too many movies.....the whole note was to draw attention from himself....but he gave away much of his own lifestyle and personality imo.....he was younger rather than older at the time of the murder, watched a lot of movies, identified with the villains, was a perverted psychopath! :seeya:

Wow, we agree on some things. The author wasn't a member of a foreign faction, I agree with you about that. The author tried to point away from himself (or herself), I agree with that. Watched films - yes, likely, as the note paraphrases from a few films (The Rs watched films a lot). I'm not sure how you conclude that the author was young.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by bullmoose
I agree,Ladyfisher, that whoever did the note and the murder was a perverted psychopath that knew exactly where the suspicion would fall. I just got done rereading Cornwall's Ripper book last night and it seems that human nature doesn't change much; in a number of the horrific murders she lists that were not attributed to the Ripper, it seems like whoever found the body was the person arrested and tried. Like the Ramseys, these unlucky men would be considered prime suspects since they were at the scene of the crime; therefore the reasoning went, they must have done it. I wonder if any of the English Constablary ever came to the US and got jobs as cops for the BPD? The pattern sure looks the same, to me, IMHO I know exactly what you are saying, Bull! When I was a tiny tot....a young woman disappeared, her car left on a highway...folks searched all over the local hills looking for her....my uncle and aunt found her body in a culvert overgrown with weeds.....although totally cleared by LE, my uncle remained a suspect in the minds of locals to this day! The murder was never solved....back in those days there wasn't such a thing as forensic evidence....my dad was on the cororner's jury...there was red hair discovered under her nails, my uncle was blonde! If JR had murdered his daughter, he would have steered FW into that cellar to discover the body imho! :seeya:

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


Wow, we agree on some things. The author wasn't a member of a foreign faction, I agree with you about that. The author tried to point away from himself (or herself), I agree with that. Watched films - yes, likely, as the note paraphrases from a few films (The Rs watched films a lot). I'm not sure how you conclude that the author was young. Imho the author of that note had a lot of free time on his hands....he either didn't work or only worked part time...he imo was young, the movies he quoted would imo would only be remembered by someone who is idle and young, by young, I don't mean necessarily a teenager, he was probably in his twenties, lazy, angry at the world, had a computer, peeked into the porno world, maybe even overweight and not all that attractive to women his own age...abused drugs or alcohol or both! Could be in jail now for some other crime for all I know, that is all just my opinion, Wally!

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Imho the author of that note had a lot of free time on his hands....he either didn't work or only worked part time...he imo was young, the movies he quoted would imo would only be remembered by someone who is idle and young, by young, I don't mean necessarily a teenager, he was probably in his twenties, lazy, angry at the world, had a computer, peeked into the porno world, maybe even overweight and not all that attractive to women his own age...abused drugs or alcohol or both! Could be in jail now for some other crime for all I know, that is all just my opinion, Wally!

I don't know how you can see all that from the RN. Angry, yes, but lazy? Overweight? Porn? Drug and alcohol abuser? Where is the indication of any of that in the RN?

I think it sounds like it was written by a well-read older person who had a good vocabulary (right down to correct usage of accent marks and proper indentation and punctuation) but little experience with crime.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Imho the author of that note had a lot of free time on his hands....he either didn't work or only worked part time...he imo was young, the movies he quoted would imo would only be remembered by someone who is idle and young, by young, I don't mean necessarily a teenager, he was probably in his twenties, lazy, angry at the world, had a computer, peeked into the porno world, maybe even overweight and not all that attractive to women his own age...abused drugs or alcohol or both! Could be in jail now for some other crime for all I know, that is all just my opinion, Wally!

I'm 50 and I can remember movie lines. Mind you, I can't remember what I had for lunch.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I know exactly what you are saying, Bull! When I was a tiny tot....a young woman disappeared, her car left on a highway...folks searched all over the local hills looking for her....my uncle and aunt found her body in a culvert overgrown with weeds.....although totally cleared by LE, my uncle remained a suspect in the minds of locals to this day! The murder was never solved....back in those days there wasn't such a thing as forensic evidence....my dad was on the cororner's jury...there was red hair discovered under her nails, my uncle was blonde! If JR had murdered his daughter, he would have steered FW into that cellar to discover the body imho! :seeya:

Would have looked pretty suspicious of him to try to "steer Fleet into that room", wouldn't it? We all know anyway that Fleet had already looked in that room by that time and saw nothing. If JR had tried to steer him into it, don't you think he (Fleet) would have mentioned this little bit of info to him?
After being lectured on how not to judge people by their actions, it seems rather hypocritical for you to suggest that JR can't be guilty because he didn't try to con someone else into finding the body.
I think he wanted to find her himself. I think the things he did such as removing the tape and untying one wrist were done purposefully, as maybe he thought better of the way he had staged her to look and tried to undo those aspects of it. Much like the window and the suitcase deal. Maybe the tape wasn't sticky (pre-used) enough to look convincing; maybe he knew those wrist ligatures were too loose to look convincing. Yep, I think he had second thoughts on these things. After undoing his staging, all anyone had was his word on what he saw when he found her. IMO

[shill]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


That comment was so foolish I don't even know where to begin. When have we ever fought all of Asia? And how many APAC members do you figure were from Asian countries hostile to the US?

We were not occupying the Philippines when JR was there. PI got it's independance in the late 1940s (1946 I believe) - on July 4th.

Again, APAC is merely a student group, basing membership on Asian heritage -whether foreign born or native born - and was also open to non-Asians who were interested in Asian culture. To call it a small foreign faction is stupid. One may as well call the association of Latino students a foreign faction - despite the fact that many of the members will be native born Americans. I'm not saying it was a group of Asians, I'm saying it's a possibility that it could be someone from the APAC group, from one country.
Sorry, we technically weren't occupying but were stationed there, but they kicked us out first chance they got.
So a psychopath wouldn't see himself as part of a Small Foreign Faction? The killer couldn't be delusional? Wants to be associated with a group because he has problems in real life associating with people since he is a psychopath. Thinks he is just in his actions because he is a psychopath.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Athena
Hmmm..... I also withdraw the comment that he was not investigated because here it seems the BPD do want to contact him and ask Patsy for info.

Shame on me for not following my own rules to do the research first. :o

4 MS. HARMER: Mrs. Ramsey and Mr.
5 Wood, I am going to cite a page in the
6 book, 153.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) You mention a
9 kid by the name of Nathan that was living
10 with the Steins. Was he living with them
11 prior to December of '96?
12 A. Yes, he was.
13 Q. And at any time did he look after
14 Burke or JonBenet?
15 A. He would, on occasion, take them
16 to school in the morning.
17 Q. Do you know anything more about
18 him, his last name?
19 A. Inouwe, Nathan Inouwe.
20 Q. Do you know how to spell that?
21 A. I-n-o-u -- maybe y-e or -e.
22 Q. Is he a white male?
23 A. He is American, but of Japanese
24 descent, I believe.
25 Q. How old is he?
0317
1 A. He has graduated now and is doing
2 missionary work, I think. Susan would know
3 exactly where he is, but at that time he was
4 a college junior or senior?
5 MR. LEVIN: Mr. Wood, can you
6 facilitate getting the information to us so
7 we can contact him?
8 MR. WOOD: I think we said
9 yesterday, if you all make a hit list for
10 me, so to speak, point by point what you
11 want me to do, and we will do it.
12 MS. HARMER: That is it.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Thanks I knew the police had looked it to it and nothing came of
of that. I still was searching all my links in my favorites as I had time to find where I'd known that they had looked into him.

[shill]

I would guess that in this APAC group, Inouye might have talked about his work and relationship with the Ramseys, possibly unknowingly giving someone inside information.
He should at least be questioned if he had knowledge of the amount of the bonus.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by shill
I'm not saying it was a group of Asians, I'm saying it's a possibility that it could be someone from the APAC group, from one country.
Sorry, we technically weren't occupying but were stationed there, but they kicked us out first chance they got.
So a psychopath wouldn't see himself as part of a Small Foreign Faction? The killer couldn't be delusional? Wants to be associated with a group because he has problems in real life associating with people since he is a psychopath. Thinks he is just in his actions because he is a psychopath.

It wouldn't matter whether or not he was a psychopath - thinking of APAC as a foreign faction is just idiotic. Not even a psychopath would believe it.

We needn't speculate that it was "someone". A specific person was named in relation to this APAC theory - The Stine's babysitter, one Nathan Inouye. Since Inouye is a Japanese name, I think we can rule out his being a Philippino, though I suppose he could be of mixed ancestory. Since his first name is Nathan, I think we can safely assume he's a native born American.

APAC doesn't require it's members be foreign born. It doesn't even require they be Asian, though presumably most members are.

Neither the Philippines, nor Japan has been considered anything but an allied nation since the end of WWII. The Philippines didn't kick us out the first chance they got. It was debated for some time.

So, if you want to speculate that a native born American of Japanese ancestory saw himself as a member of a "small foreign faction" based on his membership in a university student club, then all I can say is - I'm not really suprised.

[shill]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

So, if you want to speculate that a native born American of Japanese ancestory saw himself as a member of a "small foreign faction" based on his membership in a university student club, then all I can say is - I'm not really suprised. That's not what I'm saying boy genius.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by shill
That's not what I'm saying boy genius.

Something even sillier?

[shill]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


Something even sillier? Yes, I'm trying to make you laugh.
I figure I owe you a bunch of good laughs for all the ones I've got from your posts.
Thanks Potterville boy.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


Would have looked pretty suspicious of him to try to "steer Fleet into that room", wouldn't it? We all know anyway that Fleet had already looked in that room by that time and saw nothing. If JR had tried to steer him into it, don't you think he (Fleet) would have mentioned this little bit of info to him?
After being lectured on how not to judge people by their actions, it seems rather hypocritical for you to suggest that JR can't be guilty because he didn't try to con someone else into finding the body.
I think he wanted to find her himself. I think the things he did such as removing the tape and untying one wrist were done purposefully, as maybe he thought better of the way he had staged her to look and tried to undo those aspects of it. Much like the window and the suitcase deal. Maybe the tape wasn't sticky (pre-used) enough to look convincing; maybe he knew those wrist ligatures were too loose to look convincing. Yep, I think he had second thoughts on these things. After undoing his staging, all anyone had was his word on what he saw when he found her. IMO You have no right to call me hypocritical! Usually a murderer will go to any length to prevent himself from finding the body of the person he murdered...even the FBI is aware of this fact! I was looking at the floor plan of the basement in TCTHU....it shows exactly where White was when he supposedly looked into that room, it shows where JBs body was, there's no way he would have seen it...but all JR would have had to do is tell him to search that room, tell him where the light switch was and say he was going to search another area in the basement! He didn't do that.....and to clarify, that's not the only reasons of my IDI stance, there's many...a biggie is the DNA evidence the RDIs are trying to discredit, another biggie is the probably use of a stun gun along with many other things! :seeya:

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by shill
Yes, I'm trying to make you laugh.
I figure I owe you a bunch of good laughs for all the ones I've got from your posts.
Thanks Potterville boy.

Potterville boy?

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
You have no right to call me hypocritical! Usually a murderer will go to any length to prevent himself from finding the body of the person he murdered...even the FBI is aware of this fact! I was looking at the floor plan of the basement in TCTHU....it shows exactly where White was when he supposedly looked into that room, it shows where JBs body was, there's no way he would have seen it...but all JR would have had to do is tell him to search that room, tell him where the light switch was and say he was going to search another area in the basement! He didn't do that.....and to clarify, that's not the only reasons of my IDI stance, there's many...a biggie is the DNA evidence the RDIs are trying to discredit, another biggie is the probably use of a stun gun along with many other things! :seeya:

Why do you say RDIs are trying to discredit the DNA evidence? Do you disagree that the panty DNA has fewer markers? Do you have some evidence that the panty and fingernail DNA match? Do feel Dr. Lee's expirement was bogus?
What exactly do you mean?

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
You have no right to call me hypocritical! Usually a murderer will go to any length to prevent himself from finding the body of the person he murdered...even the FBI is aware of this fact! I was looking at the floor plan of the basement in TCTHU....it shows exactly where White was when he supposedly looked into that room, it shows where JBs body was, there's no way he would have seen it...but all JR would have had to do is tell him to search that room, tell him where the light switch was and say he was going to search another area in the basement! He didn't do that.....and to clarify, that's not the only reasons of my IDI stance, there's many...a biggie is the DNA evidence the RDIs are trying to discredit, another biggie is the probably use of a stun gun along with many other things! :seeya:

By that token, usually the parents of a murdered child stick close by each other comforting each other. They usually co-operate with the police and grant formal interviews right away, NOT on their own terms 4 months later. They usually don't recite a dramatic structured sentence upon learning of their childs death. They usually don't read things standing up, bent over, or on their hands and knees. They usually don't invite a bunch of friends over when a kidnapper has threatened to behead their daughter if they tell anyone. They usually don't do a lot of things that the Ramseys did or do some things that the Ramseys didn't.
I think, as I said, that JR had second thoughts about what they'd staged and rather welcomed the opportunity to undo some of it.

There is nothing usual about this murder.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Apparently, this forum is going to be closed for several days.

Peace!

:seeya:

MissO

"We'll meet again, don't know how, don't know when...."

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
You have no right to call me hypocritical! Usually a murderer will go to any length to prevent himself from finding the body of the person he murdered...even the FBI is aware of this fact! I was looking at the floor plan of the basement in TCTHU....it shows exactly where White was when he supposedly looked into that room, it shows where JBs body was, there's no way he would have seen it...but all JR would have had to do is tell him to search that room, tell him where the light switch was and say he was going to search another area in the basement!

Great point imo, LadyFisher! There's a case now in NC, where a husband called his wife's sister to go to the house to retrieve a fax. She found her sister's body.

[Ames]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Great point imo, LadyFisher! There's a case now in NC, where a husband called his wife's sister to go to the house to retrieve a fax. She found her sister's body.

So, I am assuming that the husband did it?? Didn't he know that sending his wife's sister to the house to retrieve a fax and having the sister discover the body, would place suspicion on him? That's weird.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Ames


So, I am assuming that the husband did it?? Didn't he know that sending his wife's sister to the house to retrieve a fax and having the sister discover the body, would place suspicion on him? That's weird.

I'm sorry, Ames. I should have said that, in looking at this case on tonight's Nancy Grace, Dan Horowitz said that that is something LE notice in a case, because it happens so often. It does not mean the husband in this case is guilty. It is just something that is noted during an investigation.

[shill]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


By that token, usually the parents of a murdered child stick close by each other comforting each other. They usually co-operate with the police and grant formal interviews right away, NOT on their own terms 4 months later. They usually don't recite a dramatic structured sentence upon learning of their childs death. They usually don't read things standing up, bent over, or on their hands and knees. They usually don't invite a bunch of friends over when a kidnapper has threatened to behead their daughter if they tell anyone. They usually don't do a lot of things that the Ramseys did or do some things that the Ramseys didn't.


There is nothing usual about this murder. There is nothing usual about these parents.
Parents of a murdered child don't usually build billion dollar corporations or are x-beauty queens entering their daughter in beauty pageants.
If all parents behaved the same as the Ramseys, they'd be wealthy beauty pageant winners.

[shill]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


That comment was so foolish I don't even know where to begin. And how many APAC members do you figure were from Asian countries hostile to the US?

We were not occupying the Philippines when JR was there. PI got it's independance in the late 1940s (1946 I believe) - on July 4th.

The government has no business in business, yet, government is the biggest business on Guam since WWII.

GovGuam now owns the largest real estate dealership headed by a retired career politician. Similarly, the U.S. Navy lays claim to a very profitable McDonald's fast food restaurant, off-base, on land taken by force, not to mention without just compensation, taking business away from the private sector. These are the "Thank Yous" to our parents' sacrifice of life and property in the wars America was in.
http://www.the-catbird-seat.net/BrokenTrust.htm

[shill]

This is all evidence that federal and local governmental actions are fraudulent and particularly in dealing with the legacy of Guam's native people and with private property interests on Guam. We are well aware that since WWII, the people who are benefitting and prospering from the present U.S. status, are those in power.

[shill]

In fact, I heard the good Senator Dan Inouye from the State of Hawaii, after one of such meetings said, "Guam is crying out for justice."

[shill]

Vose’s agreement to transfer The Meadows and a smaller subdivision settles the state’s lawsuit against him, Eugene Sprague, an attorney in Denver representing the Hawaii Insurance Division, said today. . . . Neither Vose’s attorney nor Metcalf could be reached for comment, so it was not immediately clear what the value of the Colorado properties might be. Sprague said he could not go into details because of a confidentiality agreement....

[shill]

* * *

Honolulu Star-Bulletin, 10/28/96, by Ian Y. Lind: Isle Woman Part of Campaign Probe - Former resident Nora Lum figures in congressional investigation into ‘92 finances. Congressional investigators have renewed a probe of former Hawaii resident Nora T. Lum, and a 1992 campaign project which she headed, because of their links to Democratic National Committee fund-raiser John Huang and former DNC official Melinda Yee.

David Bossie, staff investigator for Rep. Dan Burton, said last week that investigators are “extremely interested” in Lum’s association with Huang and Yee in the Asian Pacific Advisory Council (APAC-Vote), a DNC project that operated out of offices in Torrance, Calif, during the fall of 1992.

Bossie said APAC-Vote is drawing new scrutiny because its “cast of characters” included Huang, then an officer of the Indonesian-owned Lippo Bank in Los Angeles; the late Secretary of Commerce, Ron Brown, then chairman of the DNC; and Melinda Yee, an assistant to Brown at the DNC and national director of Asian Pacific American affairs for the 1992 Clinton-Gore campaign.

Following the 1992 elections, Brown was appointed secretary of commerce and named Huang and Yee to key positions in the department....

Huang and Yee have been ordered to testify in a lawsuit by the conservative organization, Judicial Watch, which wants to know whether Commerce Dept trade missions were used to raise funds for the Democratic Party....

APAC-Vote officially opened its office on Sept 9, 1992, the same day then-candidate Bill Clinton announced the formation of the Asian Pacific American Committee for Clinton-Gore, whose roster included Sen. *Dan Inouye, Sen. Dan Akaka, Rep. Patsy Mink, and then-Gov. John Waihee....

[shill]

Hmmmm... Senator Dan Inouye of Hawaii, any relationship to Nathan Inouye?

[shill]

These companies are accused of violating federal law by engaging in a "racketeering conspiracy" using indentured labor -- predominantly young women from Asia -- to produce clothing on the island of Saipan. (Saipan is part of the Northern Mariana Islands, a U.S. Commonwealth in the South Pacific.)

Their foreign-owned garment contractors in Saipan are also charged with failing to pay overtime and ongoing intolerable work and living conditions. In the last five years, contractors in Saipan have received more than 1,000 citations for violating U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) standards, many of which characterized capable of causing death or serious injury.

Two federal class action lawsuits were filed on behalf of more than 50,000 workers from China, the Philippines, Bangladesh and Thailand. The workers were allegedly drawn to Saipan with the promises of high pay and quality work in the United States. Instead, they found themselves working up to 12-hour days, seven days a week, often "off the clock" without receiving any pay or overtime.

[shill]

Victory,
Saipan, Bangladesh, Thailand, China

JB's panties were made in Thailand. It would be interesting to see where a lot of her outfits and other pageant members outfits come from.:patriot:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by shill
Victory,
Saipan, Bangladesh, Thailand, China

JB's panties were made in Thailand. It would be interesting to see where a lot of her outfits and other pageant members outfits come from.:patriot:

The paintbrush was made in Korea.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


I don't know how you can see all that from the RN. Angry, yes, but lazy? Overweight? Porn? Drug and alcohol abuser? Where is the indication of any of that in the RN?

I think it sounds like it was written by a well-read older person who had a good vocabulary (right down to correct usage of accent marks and proper indentation and punctuation) but little experience with crime. I don't see all of it in the ransom note....I see it in the entire murder scene....the perp was filled with rage, look at the blunt force trauma to this child's head, he was too cowardly to vent it on someone his own size, he had to pick a little 45 lb. 6 y/o....look at the garrotte & vaginal penetration by the paintbrush, only a pervert sicko could do this....someone with a mind such as this one would have to be on drugs or alcohol! imho He was a psychopath! imho

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Great point imo, LadyFisher! There's a case now in NC, where a husband called his wife's sister to go to the house to retrieve a fax. She found her sister's body. Thank you, MissO! I will miss everyone during our vacation from the board, wishing everyone peace! :seeya:

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by shill
Victory,
Saipan, Bangladesh, Thailand, China

JB's panties were made in Thailand. It would be interesting to see where a lot of her outfits and other pageant members outfits come from.:patriot:

Pam Griffin made several of JonBenet's pageant outfits, didn't she? Patsy said they often got different things from different people and put them together. I don't know about the other kids in the pageants. Patsy also said they'd take along extra things, like tights or a skirt or something, in case there was another girl who needed something else for her costume.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I don't see all of it in the ransom note....I see it in the entire murder scene....the perp was filled with rage, look at the blunt force trauma to this child's head, he was too cowardly to vent it on someone his own size, he had to pick a little 45 lb. 6 y/o....look at the garrotte & vaginal penetration by the paintbrush, only a pervert sicko could do this....someone with a mind such as this one would have to be on drugs or alcohol! imho He was a psychopath! imho

I can see where you draw your conclusion...but I think you might be reading into it a bit.

Angry, yes - cowardly, absolutely. But there's no proof that this killer was a perv or a drug/alcohol abuser. Many have pointed out how little damage was done to JonBenet with the paintbrush. I realize any damage is too much, but usually when a perv gets his hands on a kid he tears them up. You'd see multiple stab wounds with the paintbrush and there would most likely be anal damage as well. The fact that the perp did not injure JB more is one of the things some experts think points to it not being a perv intruder.

[WallyCleaver]

Shill

The APAC were were talking about isn't the same one you've mentioned in you're recent posts. Still I suppose it doesn't really matter, as you have no real point anyway.

[LindaA]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
Shill

The APAC were were talking about isn't the same one you've mentioned in you're recent posts. Still I suppose it doesn't really matter, as you have no real point anyway.

He has a point. You just didn't get it.

[shill]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
Shill

The APAC were were talking about isn't the same one you've mentioned in you're recent posts. Still I suppose it doesn't really matter, as you have no real point anyway. Where do you think they got the idea to form a college APAC?
You're to much of an Okee to see my point.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by shill
Where do you think they got the idea to form a college APAC?
You're to much of an Okee to see my point.

Not from the Asian Pacific Advisory Council. The college APAC was the Asian Pacific American Coalition. Strange name for a foreign faction what with the word "American" in it.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


Why do you say RDIs are trying to discredit the DNA evidence? Do you disagree that the panty DNA has fewer markers? Do you have some evidence that the panty and fingernail DNA match? Do feel Dr. Lee's expirement was bogus?
What exactly do you mean? I believe there were 9 or 10 markers out of 13? Right? It's enough to rule someone out as a suspect, and enough to help in a conviction if the perp is caught....I do believe Dr. Lee's experiment was bogus, I have a lot of respect for him and his expertise in blood spatter....but I don't think he got this right. I don't know about the dna under the fingernails, in some books I've read, I thought it said it did match??? Was it the DOI or am I mistaken....wasn't the DNA contaminated under the fingernails, but was it too contaminated to get any markers that matched the panties? If there is no viable DNA, JMK would not have been released due to his not matching IMHO!

[Athena]

I think what some people are confusing with the DNA is that the FBI's stricter standards require 13 markers to get an unmistakable ID. However with the new advances in technology it is very possible to ID anyone with much less especially since 9/11/01. I've posted links to this before citing what happened during the WTC and identification of those people (up to 3000) with much less which is why although the DNA only had 10 markers it was permissible to enter into CODIS. tHE DNA was isolated during 2003 due to the technological advances since 1996. JMHO

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I believe there were 9 or 10 markers out of 13? Right? It's enough to rule someone out as a suspect, and enough to help in a conviction if the perp is caught....I do believe Dr. Lee's experiment was bogus, I have a lot of respect for him and his expertise in blood spatter....but I don't think he got this right. I don't know about the dna under the fingernails, in some books I've read, I thought it said it did match??? Was it the DOI or am I mistaken....wasn't the DNA contaminated under the fingernails, but was it too contaminated to get any markers that matched the panties? If there is no viable DNA, JMK would not have been released due to his not matching IMHO!

If is enough to rule out. If the 9 don't match not any chance the rest will. However If you had a match on the 10 exact match you might start getting hopeful at least. It is my understanding the question to ask would be to prove they have other markers. It'd be interesting to prove. No doubt some will try to claim it but that does not prove it so.

[shill]

Have the tried or found a DNA match for the cigarette butts they collected?

[rashomon]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I don't see all of it in the ransom note....I see it in the entire murder scene....the perp was filled with rage, look at the blunt force trauma to this child's head, he was too cowardly to vent it on someone his own size, he had to pick a little 45 lb. 6 y/o....look at the garrotte & vaginal penetration by the paintbrush, only a pervert sicko could do this....someone with a mind such as this one would have to be on drugs or alcohol! imho He was a psychopath! imho
The perp was filled with rage, I'm convinced of that too. Hence the head bash. Rage attacks by parents on their own children happen all the time.
I think Patsy, for whatever reason (I can think of quite a few) snapped and lost it on that fatal night.
All the following cover-up was done for staging purposes, with John helping her because he too had something to hide.
Once you accept that all that 'garrote' stuff was staged, the whole puzzle can be put together. No need to look for far-fetched explanations, like 'the perp mimicked Patsy's handwriting to perfection' etc. Keep it simple.

And yes, the perp was a psychopath, ITA. Aided by another psychopath in the staging of the scene - her husband.

[shill]

Originally posted by rashomon

The perp was filled with rage, I'm convinced of that too. Hence the head bash.

And yes, the perp was a psychopath, ITA. Aided by another psychopath in the staging of the scene - her husband. I'm not buying two psychopaths fell in love, got married, never showed their psychopath side until one lost it and struck in anger and killed.
And instead of facing a trial for this outburst, they go crazy with staging a bizaare crime scene, but don't get rid of the body.
But your theory makes for great Tabloid Trash.

[shill]

I think it's possible that John Karr may have learned something about the killer in Thailand.
The killer may not be a registered sex offender in the US, and if his home is in the Asian countries, he could stay off the radar by getting his kicks in Thailand. But someone might recognize his M.O., like JMK.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by shill
I'm not buying two psychopaths fell in love, got married, never showed their psychopath side until one lost it and struck in anger and killed.
And instead of facing a trial for this outburst, they go crazy with staging a bizaare crime scene, but don't get rid of the body.
But your theory makes for great Tabloid Trash.

History is full of just that though. Bonny and Clyde. Charles Starkweather and Carolanne Fugate....My list could go on and on. However what is most likely is Bipolars are quite frankly charming alluring and brilliant. Till the cycles reverse and all the associated personality disorders come on out . Trigger hair anger that can become suicidal and homicidal is just one of the factors that can be acted out.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


History is full of just that though. Bonny and Clyde. Charles Starkweather and Carolanne Fugate....My list could go on and on. However what is most likely is Bipolars are quite frankly charming alluring and brilliant. Till the cycles reverse and all the associated personality disorders come on out . Trigger hair anger that can become suicidal and homicidal is just one of the factors that can be acted out.

And yet none of their friends noticed any of this behavior? These people were put under scrutiny and there was no such behavior noted of course unless one decides to make it up. JMO

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by shill
I'm not buying two psychopaths fell in love, got married, never showed their psychopath side until one lost it and struck in anger and killed.
And instead of facing a trial for this outburst, they go crazy with staging a bizaare crime scene, but don't get rid of the body.
But your theory makes for great Tabloid Trash. I'm not buying this either, I don't believe JR or PR were psychopaths, bipolar or anything other mental disorder...if so, there would have been some history of it recorded by a psyhiatrist/psycologist or it would have been noted by someone throughout their lives, there is nothing, no evidence these two had anything close to these disorder.....we and the world would have known it by now! You don't just suddenly one Christmas night develope these either, to suggest two people did is preposterous! imho Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING, everyone! :seeya:

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Athena


And yet none of their friends noticed any of this behavior? These people were put under scrutiny and there was no such behavior noted of course unless one decides to make it up. JMO

That is not exactly so. Murderous behavior ...no .... You say there was no such behaviour yet when I was talking with a source out here that was in a postion to know the investigation details yes it was noted. Not sociopathic or psycopathic but behavioral things. Like for instance charming but could fire up quickly if she did not get her way. Needing to be in control... needing at all times to put forth the appearance of perfection. Her friends wanting to discuss the mega JonBenet thing with her. Believe it or not and I already presume you will not. However these things although small issues combined added up to a picture that was painted of not everything being as picture perfect as the image they tried to portray. Some I heard through people I have known who would know. Some I read. Like LHP accounts How do you think all this came out about the potty issues etc if people didn't talk and talk to investigators yet. I always held to the fact if something seems to perfect to be true. It often times is. These are things you hear when you live and know people in the community. Call them rumor some of these rumors did come out from neighbors and friends during the investigation.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I'm not buying this either, I don't believe JR or PR were psychopaths, bipolar or anything other mental disorder...if so, there would have been some history of it recorded by a psyhiatrist/psycologist or it would have been noted by someone throughout their lives, there is nothing, no evidence these two had anything close to these disorder.....we and the world would have known it by now! You don't just suddenly one Christmas night develope these either, to suggest two people did is preposterous! imho Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING, everyone! :seeya: Sorry it has been suggested out here by some early on long before the internet forums. I have no idea if it was diagnosed or treated. But the behaviors that could point to it were in books even. Charming as can be yet an instant firebrand..... Depression medications....and while I won't reveal my local sources for good reason...... it was said more than once. Your believing it or not your preference does not make it never spoken.

[rashomon]

Originally posted by shill
I'm not buying two psychopaths fell in love, got married, never showed their psychopath side until one lost it and struck in anger and killed.
And instead of facing a trial for this outburst, they go crazy with staging a bizaare crime scene, but don't get rid of the body.
But your theory makes for great Tabloid Trash.
Shill: what you call 'Tabloid Trash' is supported by pretty damaging forensic and other cirumstantial evidence. The fiber evidence and the ransom note handwriting implicating Patsy are a thorn in the side of the IDIs. This has been discussed here very often.

And parents who jab a paintbrush into their child's vagina even if it is 'only' done for staging purposes are certainly psychopaths, who chose their own self-survival over saving the life of their child.
And there is someting wrong with a mother who dresses both herself and her six-year-old daughter as Marilyn Monroe, the epitome of the sexually alluring woman.

[Ames]

Originally posted by rashomon



<snipped>
And there is someting wrong with a mother who dresses both herself and her six-year-old daughter as Marily Monroe, the epitome of the sexually alluring woman.

Don't know how true it is...but, I read that on Halloween one year, when JB was four, she was dressed as a witch. When the housekeeper made a comment about how cute she looked, JB replied.."I'm a sexy witch". Patsy came into the room, after overhearing JB, and said, "Yes, she is a sexy witch". Not sure how true this is, but why would the housekeeper go back two years, and make a story like this up? (IMO)

[bullmoose]

To rashoman: The fiber evidence and handwriting analysis that you speak of are just tabloid trash; I just finished rereading Twisting Thomas' deposition in the lawsuit that the Ramseys had brought against him after his book came out; his so-called handwriting expert had written a letter to the Ramseys a year before he came out with his "analysis" of the ransom note; in his letter he swore that he knew they were innocent and that he could prove it with his expetise at handwriting analysis. As for the fiber "evidence" that you mention; is that the vampire fibers that the cops questioned John Ramsey about but then dropped the question when Lin Wood asked to see whether there was any such evidence? I call the fibers in question vampire fibers because they keep arising from the casket of Dracula, undead and more importantly--unreal. I do agree that whoever jabbed a paintbrush into Jonbenet's vagina is a sexual psycopath, but I do not think that there is any evidence to point a finger at her parents for such a monstrous act. As for the housekeepers' recollection, whether accurate or not, I know of one very good reason for her to make something that that up: she was one of the first people suggested to the BPD as acting strange in the days before Jonbenet's murder. She had financial troubles and had asked Patsy for a $2500 loan which Patsy was going to leave for her when the Ramseys left for Michigan. I am quite sure that the BPD told her that the Ramseys had fingered her and did she have any information that would reflect badly on the Ramseys? This is standard police procedure in a murder case, to get all the suspects to make damaging statements about each other. And it quite often works to flush out the facts that suspects are concealing ffrom the cops; in this case it has only fed the tabloids. Of course, since Steve Thomas' 'special friend' was a tabloid reporter, the tabloids were feeding at the BPD's table, begging for and receiving all the tasty tidbits which of course were then printed as gospel truth.

[andU]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks, CK. Were there a lot of college and grad school kids in the area the Ramseys lived in? Doing odd jobs for extra money?

Don't college students refer to 'transients'? ... they aren't permanent residents ... one would think that any that had family would be with them during Christmas, though ... unless the family were Muslim
Student doing this doesn't feel right to me, though.... I'm thinking either a past employee or someone that John really humbled in some way, failed to acknowledge for his efforts on a committee served or something... I think the pay back was a long time coming and John had forgotten the person, until he read the rn... hints told John who the perp is/was...