The Public Behavior of the Ramseys & Other Info About Them [Archive] - Page 2

Athena

10-13-2006, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1
BARBARA WALTERS Why wasn't the body exhumed?

JOHN RAMSEY (PAUSE) Don't know why the Police didn't consider that. Uh we were asked… when this theory first surfaced about a Stun gun that if the body were exhumed… it could be proved conclusively but it had to be done fairly quickly. This was… within months of when we'd just buried JonBenet. And I, as her father, could not bring myself to do that. I had laid my child to rest. She was at peace. And that was a that decision I couldn't make.

BARBARA WALTERS Even though it might have cleared you?

JOHN RAMSEY It wasn't… that was not the priority. The priority was my child was at rest.

So what was he trying to say? On the one hand he blames the police for "not having thought" to exhume her body, but in the same breath he says they were asked to do it and he said no.
Apparently the "priority" was not finding her murderer either. IMO

The police could have gotten a court order to have it exhumed. Why should JR do that? It was not a body to him; it was his baby daughter.

It is everyone's American rights to be proven guilty not for one to prove themselves innocent.

Ames

10-14-2006, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1
BARBARA WALTERS Why wasn't the body exhumed?

JOHN RAMSEY (PAUSE) Don't know why the Police didn't consider that. Uh we were asked… when this theory first surfaced about a Stun gun that if the body were exhumed… it could be proved conclusively but it had to be done fairly quickly. This was… within months of when we'd just buried JonBenet. And I, as her father, could not bring myself to do that. I had laid my child to rest. She was at peace. And that was a that decision I couldn't make.

BARBARA WALTERS Even though it might have cleared you?

JOHN RAMSEY It wasn't… that was not the priority. The priority was my child was at rest.

So what was he trying to say? On the one hand he blames the police for "not having thought" to exhume her body, but in the same breath he says they were asked to do it and he said no.
Apparently the "priority" was not finding her murderer either. IMO

Great post! The reason he didn't want the body exhumed is because he was afraid that examiners may find something that they missed the first time....including that scarf that JR put into her casket. IDI folks say that he just wanted his "baby to be at rest"....I say...BULL! IMO

thewhitewitch1

10-14-2006, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Athena

The police could have gotten a court order to have it exhumed. Why should JR do that? It was not a body to him; it was his baby daughter.

It is everyone's American rights to be proven guilty not for one to prove themselves innocent.

The point was, he was acting like the police never asked to have her exhumed in one breath and acted like it should have been done, and in the next he recants and says he didn't want her exhumed. I don't know why the police didn't get a court order. This whole case could have been solved right now if they had. JR probably would have fought it anyway.

Ames

10-14-2006, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1

The point was, he was acting like the police never asked to have her exhumed in one breath and acted like it should have been done, and in the next he recants and says he didn't want her exhumed. I don't know why the police didn't get a court order. This whole case could have been solved right now if they had. JR probably would have fought it anyway.

Money could have changed hands...thats why there was no court order. I agree, there should have been one...I bet a 2nd autopsy, and testing done on that scarf that JR thought should be with JB throughout eternity....would answer alot of questions...answers that were somehow missed the first time. Heck no, JR doesn't want her body exhumed....he is not crazy. The Ramsey's have pulled off the perfect crime, why would he want to ruin that, and risk going to jail?? IMO

Ames

10-14-2006, 08:44 PM

Is it just me...or has anyone else noticed that John Ramsey has never cried during not one of his interviews? Not even the first one, right after JB was murdered, and they were "looking" for her killer. He just sat there with a smirk on his face, looking like he was trying to stifle a laugh. (And he reminds me of Bill O'Reilly....)
He didn't look like the parent of a child that had just been murdered...there was absolutely NO emotion at all from him. IMO

thewhitewitch1

10-14-2006, 09:26 PM

Now, Ames...we are not supposed to judge a person on how they react. I'm sure he was crying on the inside. ;)

Ames

10-14-2006, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1
Now, Ames...we are not supposed to judge a person on how they react. I'm sure he was crying on the inside. ;)

HI there TWW...welcome to my thread!

Yes, I am sure that he was crying on the inside...LOL (thats funny). The first thing that I noticed when I watched their first interview, was the lack of emotion from John...he just sat there like a rock. And Patsy's caked on makeup...thats the second thing that I noticed...she looked like Tammy Faye Baker. I remembered thinking, that I would be such a basket case, that I wouldn't even put makeup on! WHO CARES what you look like....when your daughter was just murdered...and the killer is "still out there". (Guess she had to look nice for the cameras, though...afterall...the whole nation was watching). IMO

thewhitewitch1

10-14-2006, 09:48 PM

I agree, Ames. There was an ulterier motive for not wanting her body exhumed. For Gods sake, the Ramseys didn't have to be present for the exhumation. I don't understand why they didn't want it done if they really wanted to find this "killer". You would think that would be a bigger priority over "disturbing her peace". All Christians know that the body is just a shell anyway and they already "knew she was in Heaven". IMO

Ames

10-14-2006, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1
I agree, Ames. There was an ulterier motive for not wanting her body exhumed. For Gods sake, the Ramseys didn't have to be present for the exhumation. I don't understand why they didn't want it done if they really wanted to find this "killer". You would think that would be a bigger priority over "disturbing her peace". All Christians know that the body is just a shell anyway and they already "knew she was in Heaven". IMO

Exactly! When my cousin was murdered by her husband, he was convicted and thrown in prison. At the trial and the whole time that he was in jail, he tried to say that she had committed suicide..even though the evidence (including the fact that he had wrapped the gun in a towel to muffle the shot...(it was in a hotel room), and that the gun was found on her left side, and she was right handed...and her left hand was broken), said otherwise. The judge agreed with the evidence and sent him away, he wanted the body exhumed, and her parents were going to agree to it, but he was let out on parole. He served only ten years...they had a one year old and a two year old daughter. MY POINT IS...her parents are Christian's too...and had no problem with her body being exhumed...because it is only a shell...the spirit that made her who she was ....was in heaven. And, they knew that the 2nd autopsy would have only proven that he was a liar, and they had no problem with her body being exhumed...because they knew the truth. The Ramsey's knew the truth too...thats why they didn't want JB's body exhumed. Her body was just a shell....that was NOT JB in that grave...JB is in heaven....and sadly...I do not think that her mother is with her. Why wouldn't a parent do everything in their power, to see that justice is brought to their child's killer? Why not agree to an a 2nd autopsy that MAY shed some light on alot of things, that was missed the first time. The scarf? Why the h-ll would he put a scarf into the casket???? Now thats just weird....what attachment could she have possibly had to that stupid thing? She was SIX...not sixty. Something is rotten in Denmark....IMO

harz

10-14-2006, 10:09 PM

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09161997vanityfair.htm

A statement in that link said John was cold as ice, maybe an iceman, something like that. Interesting reading tho, even its long IMO

Ames

10-14-2006, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by harz
http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09161997vanityfair.htm

A statement in that link said John was cold as ice, maybe an iceman, something like that. Interesting reading tho, even its long IMO

"While John Ramsey, cool and collected, explained the sequence of events to him, Patsy Ramsey sat in an overstuffed chair in the sunroom, sobbing. Something seemed odd to French, and later he would recall how the grieving mother's eyes stayed riveted on him. He remembered her gaze, and her awkward attempt to conceal it- peering at him through splayed fingers held over her eyes."

Thats a quote from the link that you provided harz...btw..thanks. I had also forgotten about Patsy peering at him through splayed fingers held over her eyes. Why would she DO THAT? Reminds me of me, when I go to a scary movie....I put my hands over my face, because I don't want to see...but, then I really DO..so, I peer through my fingers. Sounds to me like she was just acting...if she was so distraught....why in the world was she peering at him, though her fingers??? Was she trying to make sure that he SAW her and how 'distraught" she was? What was the deal with that? IMO

thewhitewitch1

10-14-2006, 10:27 PM

I totally agree with you, Ames and I am very interested in that scarf also.

Ames

10-14-2006, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1
I totally agree with you, Ames and I am very interested in that scarf also.

I had heard at one time that John had recently bought the scarf for JB...if thats the case...then certainly she would not have been attached to it. If I bought my 5 year old....OR my 15 year old, for that matter....a scarf...they would laugh me out the door. Now...if I bought one for my grandmother....that would be a totally different story. I think that the scarf was used before the cords and garotte around her neck. I believe that the scarf and garotte was used to hide the fact that a scarf was used first. IMO

thewhitewitch1

10-14-2006, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by Ames

I had heard at one time that John had recently bought the scarf for JB...if thats the case...then certainly she would not have been attached to it. If I bought my 5 year old....OR my 15 year old, for that matter....a scarf...they would laugh me out the door. Now...if I bought one for my grandmother....that would be a totally different story. I think that the scarf was used before the cords and garotte around her neck. I believe that the scarf and garotte was used to hide the fact that a scarf was used first. IMO

I believe that the scarf was used first too. I read (Patsy said in DOI) that John had "recently bought a beautiful silk scarf" but she didn't say who it was for. I have always thought that burying her with that scarf was strange.
Another thing that just makes me cringe is when the Ramseys compare the media to a "lynch mob". Considering their daughter was strangled, that phrase seems so inappropriate.

Ames

10-15-2006, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1

I believe that the scarf was used first too. I read (Patsy said in DOI) that John had "recently bought a beautiful silk scarf" but she didn't say who it was for. I have always thought that burying her with that scarf was strange.
Another thing that just makes me cringe is when the Ramseys compare the media to a "lynch mob". Considering their daughter was strangled, that phrase seems so inappropriate.

Oh okay...I knew that he had recently bought one, I just thought that it was for JB, which I thought was an odd gift for a 6 year old! Yes, burying her with that scarf WAS strange...there had to be some reason for it, for him to bury it with JB. I think that it was a key piece of evidence....along with all of the other "things for the funeral", that the Ramsey's "needed". I would be SO interested in what else Pam took out of the house that night. How in the world would things to put in the coffin with JB, and the clothing that they needed to wear to the funeral, end up being a police car trunk AND a backseat full of stuff? Gee...just how many things were "needed" for the funeral"? Yes, and that is weird about them comparing the media to a "lynch mob", after JB was strangled. Just like, it was weird for Patsy to say that the MY TWINN doll, that she had ordered, looked like JB in a casket (referring to it still in the box). Now, THAT was weird, too...and the fact that she compared herself to Jackie Kennedy, when JFK died. J and P, both...have such a way with words, don't they? IMO

barbsthoughts

10-15-2006, 12:37 AM

It would be great if JR could elaborate on the significance of the scarf. Can anyone pose this question to him ? Has anyone attempted? There are 2 ways he could answer the question IMO---stonewall it, or give an answer. I put a personally significant item in my mother's coffin. My friends and family knew and recognized the significance. If anyone cared to ask me about it I could tell them. So let's ask him.

Ames

10-15-2006, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by barbsthoughts
It would be great if JR could elaborate on the significance of the scarf. Can anyone pose this question to him ? Has anyone attempted? There are 2 ways he could answer the question IMO---stonewall it, or give an answer. I put a personally significant item in my mother's coffin. My friends and family knew and recognized the significance. If anyone cared to ask me about it I could tell them. So let's ask him.

I am sure that nobody has even thought to ask him about the scarf. He is still living though...and someone needs to ask him now. Where is he, by the way...wasn't he going to leave the country when J. Karr was arrested, to avoid the limelight? IMO

Ames

10-15-2006, 01:59 AM

There are alot of pictures that I had not seen before, such as Patsy and John's wedding picture, etc. One of Patsy, wearing a Vegas Showgirl get up, like the one that JB wore in her pageant. Anyway, click on the link below to view the pictures, once you are there, and view them...you can click on the link below the pictures (www.maketoast.com) and view some of JB. One of them, she is lying on a rock, has her eyes closed like she is sleeping and looks just like an angel.

http://www.patsyramsey.com/pictures.htm

harz

10-15-2006, 02:13 AM

Cool, new pictures for me too, thanks for these links. What the story on John's cheek?
http://www.maketoast.com/scarclose.jpg

LindaA

10-15-2006, 08:32 AM

Very interesting. Don't know about the picture of John and the mark on his cheek. It's never been mentioned here that I'm aware of.

chatwuann

10-15-2006, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Ames
Is it just me...or has anyone else noticed that John Ramsey has never cried during not one of his interviews? Not even the first one, right after JB was murdered, and they were "looking" for her killer. He just sat there with a smirk on his face, looking like he was trying to stifle a laugh. (And he reminds me of Bill O'Reilly....)
He didn't look like the parent of a child that had just been murdered...there was absolutely NO emotion at all from him. IMO

Charles Lindberg didn't show any emotion either and the investigation proved he had nothing to do with the crime people thought he was guilty of. Susan Smith cried all the time in front of the cameras and it turned out she was guilty, so I really don't see what someone's crying or not crying in an interview has to do with guilt or innocence.

JMO

Athena

10-15-2006, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by chatwuann

Charles Lindberg didn't show any emotion either and the investigation proved he had nothing to do with the crime people thought he was guilty of. Susan Smith cried all the time in front of the cameras and it turned out she was guilty, so I really don't see what someone's crying or not crying in an interview has to do with guilt or innocence.

JMO

:beer: Exactly. One thing I know for sure that is absolutely no question in my mind is that you CANNOT judge people because of their behavior especially in situations like these which is why I have come to ignore posts re: the Ramseys' behavior. Waste of time IMO. My husband has had many close deaths in his family and the only time I have seen him cry was in the privacy of our home and I walked in on him. Men are taught from infants it is not proper to cry and make conscious efforts not to.

chatwuann

10-15-2006, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Ames

HI there TWW...welcome to my thread!

Yes, I am sure that he was crying on the inside...LOL (thats funny). The first thing that I noticed when I watched their first interview, was the lack of emotion from John...he just sat there like a rock. And Patsy's caked on makeup...thats the second thing that I noticed...she looked like Tammy Faye Baker. I remembered thinking, that I would be such a basket case, that I wouldn't even put makeup on! WHO CARES what you look like....when your daughter was just murdered...and the killer is "still out there". (Guess she had to look nice for the cameras, though...afterall...the whole nation was watching). IMO

Sure John was stoic in that interview but maybe that was his way of handling what had happened. Perhaps Patsy wore makeup to cover her red eyes or she just put it on because she wanted to maintain a sense of normalcy during this caotic time. Who knows. It doesn't add up to guilt for me.

JMO

chatwuann

10-15-2006, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Athena

:beer: Exactly. One thing I know for sure that is absolutely no question in my mind is that you CANNOT judge people because of their behavior especially in situations like these which is why I have come to ignore posts re: the Ramseys' behavior. Waste of time IMO. My husband has had many close deaths in his family and the only time I have seen him cry was in the privacy of our home and I walked in on him. Men are taught from infants it is not proper to cry and make conscious efforts not to. Thanks for responding to my post Athena. You're right it is a waste of time to respond to posts regarding behavior especially when it comes to the JBR case. JMO

Athena

10-15-2006, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by LindaA
Very interesting. Don't know about the picture of John and the mark on his cheek. It's never been mentioned here that I'm aware of.

Look at the picture more closely. There are several marks on his face -- looks like blotchy skin to me and yes perhaps even from cyring. I am sure that would have been mentioned in the police reports and/or interviews if they thought they were marks that could have been attributed to the crime. Don't forget Linda Arndt was in his face and didn't mention anything like that either. jmo

MyrDawn

10-15-2006, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Ames

Money could have changed hands...thats why there was no court order. I agree, there should have been one...I bet a 2nd autopsy, and testing done on that scarf that JR thought should be with JB throughout eternity....would answer alot of questions...answers that were somehow missed the first time. Heck no, JR doesn't want her body exhumed....he is not crazy. The Ramsey's have pulled off the perfect crime, why would he want to ruin that, and risk going to jail?? IMO

Money could have changed hands? :lol:

What scarf??? The one John put in with JonBenet when she was buried? It was NEW. What evidence could be found on it?

MOO

watson

10-15-2006, 11:29 AM

Can someone clarify this? In going back and looking at the original evidence it's striking how many times the Ramsey's are referred to and refer to themselves as 'southerners'. Even the ransom letter contains the phrase specifically to John....'use that good southern common sense of yours', but............John is from Michigan and Patsy from West Virginia, both NORTHERN states, and at the time of the crime the Ramsey's had been living in Boulder for 5 years, in a WESTERN state.
As I understand it, John didn't move to Atlanta until the 1980's in middle age. I don't know when Patsy got there from WV.
So, can someone clarify when did John a far northerner become a southerner, or in other words when did he move to the south, and when did Patsy?
Second can someone tell us, when the Ramsey's left Boulder for good, some weeks after the crime to move to Atlanta, did they already own a second house in Atlanta or did they have to buy one for the purpose?
The signifigance of this?........It may be nothing, but post offense behavior and the history of suspects is relevent, and whatever anyones personal opinions, the circumstances of the crime, place the Ramsey's as possible suspects so their behavior after the crime and their basic history IMO is fair game, as also does the letter's reference to 'southern common sense'.
Any help on the above 2 questions appreciated.

thewhitewitch1

10-15-2006, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

Money could have changed hands? :lol:

What scarf??? The one John put in with JonBenet when she was buried? It was NEW. What evidence could be found on it?

MOO

It was not NEW. It was "recently purchased". It wasn't said how long ago. What evidence? Evidence that JB was stranged with that scarf first. Have you not seen the autopsy picture of the person that was strangled with a silk scarf and the comparison between that persons throat and JBs? That huge spot at the base of JBs throat is the same as the person strangled with the scarf.
At any rate, everyone except for John put something sentimental or meaningful into the casket. What possible sentimental meaning could a recently purchased scarf have?

Ames

10-15-2006, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1

It was not NEW. It was "recently purchased". It wasn't said how long ago. What evidence? Evidence that JB was stranged with that scarf first. Have you not seen the autopsy picture of the person that was strangled with a silk scarf and the comparison between that persons throat and JBs? That huge spot at the base of JBs throat is the same as the person strangled with the scarf.
At any rate, everyone except for John put something sentimental or meaningful into the casket. What possible sentimental meaning could a recently purchased scarf have?

Ditto!!

Ames

10-15-2006, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

Money could have changed hands? :lol:

What scarf??? The one John put in with JonBenet when she was buried? It was NEW. What evidence could be found on it?

MOO

Yeah, that scarf...and it was not new. The family put things that were sentimental in the casket with JB...IF the scarf was NEW...and had just been bought for the purpose of putting it into the casket, then HOW would it have a sentimental value?? I think that it was used around JB neck, before the garotte and cord, and JR placed it in the coffin, to be with JB thoughout eternity, thats why they did not want the body exhumed....ONE of the reasons. IMO

Ames

10-15-2006, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by harz
Cool, new pictures for me too, thanks for these links. What the story on John's cheek?
http://www.maketoast.com/scarclose.jpg

You are welcome! I thought that all of you guys would want to see these. I have NO clue what the story is on John's cheek.

Ames

10-15-2006, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by LindaA
Very interesting. Don't know about the picture of John and the mark on his cheek. It's never been mentioned here that I'm aware of.

You are welcome...I had never seen alot of these pictures before. I will do some research and see if I can find something about the mark on John's cheek. I think that if it had of been there the night of the murder, though...someone would have noticed it. Very strange.....IMO

Ames

10-15-2006, 12:14 PM

harz

10-15-2006, 01:41 PM

I am not sure his history details, but I know he was born in Michigan, this link didn't say he lived in south before JB's death, maybe he did for a short time, which hardly qualify him as southerner IMO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bennett_Ramsey

Athena

10-15-2006, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Ames

Then why did you respond???

I don't know Ames -- but why are you resorting to attacking the poster? She was responding to a post I made.

Ames

10-15-2006, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by chatwuann
Thanks for responding to my post Athena. You're right it is a waste of time to respond to posts regarding behavior especially when it comes to the JBR case. JMO

TO ATHENA...Yes, I know that she was just responding to something that you had said in a post...but, you guys agree that it is a waste of time to RESPOND to posts regarding the Ramsey's behavior....RIGHT? I was not attacking anyone...I was just simply asking...."Then why did you respond"? That is a simple question, not an attack. I mean, I certainly don't expect you to
"waste your time resonding" to one of my posts, just because you don't agree with it.. IMO

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 03:09 PM

I'm from Michigan and I can tell you most of us here would think of WV as a southern state. It did, after all, break off from VA, and we'd definitely think of VA as Southern.

What counts as Southern may often depend on where one is from, and one's own inclinations. Is MO southern? Or Western? Or midwestern? There are parts of OH, IN, and IL where people speak with a noticeable southern accent - at least noticeable to a Michigander. I think it's relative.

Ames

10-15-2006, 03:13 PM

Ames

10-15-2006, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
I'm from Michigan and I can tell you most of us here would think of WV as a southern state. It did, after all, break off from VA, and we'd definitely think of VA as Southern.

What counts as Southern may often depend on where one is from, and one's own inclinations. Is MO southern? Or Western? Or midwestern? There are parts of OH, IN, and IL where people speak with a noticeable southern accent - at least noticeable to a Michigander. I think it's relative.

I am originally from South Carolina...south of West Virginia...and we consider Virgina and West Virginia to be part of the south, too. IMO

sweetcharlotte

10-15-2006, 03:19 PM

John's career was outlined in "Perfect Murder/Perfect Town."

Ames

10-15-2006, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by harz
I am not sure his history details, but I know he was born in Michigan, this link didn't say he lived in south before JB's death, maybe he did for a short time, which hardly qualify him as southerner IMO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bennett_Ramsey

It looks like they were in Atlanta for at LEAST a year...probably even longer.

Obituary

JonBenet Patricia Ramsey of Boulder died Thursday, Dec. 26, 1996,
at home, the victim of a homicide. She was 6.
She was born Aug. 6, 1990, in Atlanta, the daughter of John Bennet Ramsey and Patricia Paugh Ramsey.
She attended High Peaks Elementary School and was a member of St. John's Episcopal Church of Boulder. She moved from Atlanta to Boulder in 1991.
The funeral service has been held on 30th December at the Peachtree Presbyterian Church in Atlanta. Interment has followed in St. James Episcopal Cemetery in Marietta.
Contributions may be made to St. John's Episcopal Church, 1419 Pine St., Boulder 80302
or to High Peaks Elementary School in care of Crist Mortuary, 3395 Penrose Place, Boulder 80301.

QUESTION...Why does JB obit. say that she died on Dec. 26th, but her gravestone says, Dec. 25th?? Anybody???

harz

10-15-2006, 03:24 PM

Does JR as southerner mostly has to do with his accents?

MissOtisRegrets

10-15-2006, 03:26 PM

I believe the Ramseys moved to Boulder from Atlanta in 1991 after John's business was made a subsidiary of Lockheed Martin (1989).

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by harz
Does JR as southerner mostly has to do with his accents?

Probably not. I've never heard JR speak, but if he grew up in Michigan, he wouldn't have a southern accent - unless perhaps his parents had moved to Michigan from the south. Even then, it's unlikely he'd have much of a southern accent.

I hate to say it but up here in Michigan there is quite a bit of prejudice against southern accents. Many southerners who move here take great trouble to loose the southern sound.

Ames

10-15-2006, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

Probably not. I've never heard JR speak, but if he grew up in Michigan, he wouldn't have a southern accent - unless perhaps his parents had moved to Michigan from the south. Even then, it's unlikely he'd have much of a southern accent.

I hate to say it but up here in Michigan there is quite a bit of prejudice against southern accents. Many southerners who move here take great trouble to loose the southern sound.

Oh is that so? I moved to Montana from SC...and the people hear just LOVE to hear me talk. I have tried to lose it, but my friends say..."NO...its so CUTE...keep it."...LOL

MissOtisRegrets

10-15-2006, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by harz
Does JR as southerner mostly has to do with his accents?

IMO it probably has to do with his business. The sarcasm in that line in the ransom note may indicate resentment stemming from the merger with Lockheed.

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Ames

Oh is that so? I moved to Montana from SC...and the people hear just LOVE to hear me talk. I have tried to lose it, but my friends say..."NO...its so CUTE...keep it."...LOL

Interesting. I think the prejudice up here is much less today than say 30 years ago. But when JR was a boy, beleive me, if he were picking up a southern accent at home he'd be loosing it whenenver he went outdoors.

One of my best friends moved up here from Ala. when he was 5 or 6. I couldn't understand anything he said in 1st grade. By third grade he'd lost most of the southren accent and picked up the Michigan accent.

OTOH I have an uncle who spent two years in the Army stationed in TX. 50 years later he still talks like a Texan.

Ames

10-15-2006, 03:38 PM

"Obituary

JonBenet Patricia Ramsey of Boulder died Thursday, Dec. 26, 1996,
at home, the victim of a homicide. She was 6.
She was born Aug. 6, 1990, in Atlanta, the daughter of John Bennet Ramsey and Patricia Paugh Ramsey.
She attended High Peaks Elementary School and was a member of St. John's Episcopal Church of Boulder. She moved from Atlanta to Boulder in 1991.
The funeral service has been held on 30th December at the Peachtree Presbyterian Church in Atlanta. Interment has followed in St. James Episcopal Cemetery in Marietta.
Contributions may be made to St. John's Episcopal Church, 1419 Pine St., Boulder 80302
or to High Peaks Elementary School in care of Crist Mortuary, 3395 Penrose Place, Boulder 80301."

JB's obit says that she died on December 26th, but her tombstone says December 25th...why is this? Maybe her parents know the REAL date that she died, and thats the one thats on her tombstone. IMO

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Ames
"Obituary

JonBenet Patricia Ramsey of Boulder died Thursday, Dec. 26, 1996,
at home, the victim of a homicide. She was 6.
She was born Aug. 6, 1990, in Atlanta, the daughter of John Bennet Ramsey and Patricia Paugh Ramsey.
She attended High Peaks Elementary School and was a member of St. John's Episcopal Church of Boulder. She moved from Atlanta to Boulder in 1991.
The funeral service has been held on 30th December at the Peachtree Presbyterian Church in Atlanta. Interment has followed in St. James Episcopal Cemetery in Marietta.
Contributions may be made to St. John's Episcopal Church, 1419 Pine St., Boulder 80302
or to High Peaks Elementary School in care of Crist Mortuary, 3395 Penrose Place, Boulder 80301."

JB's obit says that she died on December 26th, but her tombstone says December 25th...why is this? Maybe her parents know the REAL date that she died, and thats the one thats on her tombstone. IMO

Maybe, but why would they want to raise suspicion that way? Most people would go to some trouble to avoid having a death fall on Christmas. Given she was killed sometime between 10pm on Christmas and 5:45 am on the 26th, most people would opt to say the 26th so as not to taint Christmas.

thewhitewitch1

10-15-2006, 03:43 PM

I've thought that too, Ames. I believe the Ramseys offered an explanation for that somewhere. Don't have a link right off-hand.

MissOtisRegrets

10-15-2006, 03:44 PM

I lived in London for five years. The whole time I was there, I never heard the end of teasing about my American accent. People would cover their ears and cry, "Oh! You are SO American!" or would say, "Did you hear what I just said? I'm picking up so many horrible Yankee expressions from you!"

Then, when I came home, people here said, "Do you have to talk that way? You sound so affected!"

You can't win. I thought I always spoke the same way. :shrug:

:(

MissO

Ames

10-15-2006, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

<snipped>
OTOH I have an uncle who spent two years in the Army stationed in TX. 50 years later he still talks like a Texan.

LOL...thats funny! Yes, the southern accent is so thick, it is hard to lose. Trust me...I have TRIED! IMO

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 03:47 PM

Ames

10-15-2006, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I lived in London for five years. The whole time I was there, I never heard the end of teasing about my American accent. People would cover their ears and cry, "Oh! You are SO American!" or would say, "Did you hear what I just said? I'm picking up so many horrible Yankee expressions from you!"

Then, when I came home, people here said, "Do you have to talk that way? You sound so affected!"

You can't win. I thought I always spoke the same way. :shrug:

:(

MissO

As my dad used to say..."You can't win for losing". I guess that I am lucky that we moved to a north-western state where people like to hear my southern accent, and think that its "cute". I would have to punch somebody's lights out, if they made fun of me. I am very, VERY sensitive about my accent! IMO

MissOtisRegrets

10-15-2006, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

I'd love to live in the UK for a few years.

Aside from the coffee, I loved it.

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 03:51 PM

So what does all this mean in terms of who wrote the RN?

On the face of it, is seems as if the author didn't know JR was actually a "Yankee". It seems like a reference to his being from Atlanta - but many people living in Atlanta are not originally from the south.

(As an aside, I hate being called a Yankee. I'm from MI, not New England)

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Aside from the coffee, I loved it.

It's the beer I'd be interested in.

MissOtisRegrets

10-15-2006, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

It's the beer I'd be interested in.

Guiness. :D They swear if you drink a pint a day, you'll never get sick. B vitamins.

Ames

10-15-2006, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

Maybe, but why would they want to raise suspicion that way? Most people would go to some trouble to avoid having a death fall on Christmas. Given she was killed sometime between 10pm on Christmas and 5:45 am on the 26th, most people would opt to say the 26th so as not to taint Christmas.

Yeah, but I think that having the obit and the tombstone saying TWO different dates, looks REALLY suspicious. Why not have them both say the SAME thing??

MissOtisRegrets

10-15-2006, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
So what does all this mean in terms of who wrote the RN?

On the face of it, is seems as if the author didn't know JR was actually a "Yankee". It seems like a reference to his being from Atlanta - but many people living in Atlanta are not originally from the south.

(As an aside, I hate being called a Yankee. I'm from MI, not New England)

The author may not have known John's personal history but was aware that Access Graphics had come from Atlanta.

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Guiness. :D They swear if you drink a pint a day, you'll never get sick. B vitamins.

OK Doctor, I'm going to follow your advice :beer:

(((Guinness)))

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

The author may not have known John's personal history but was aware that Access Graphics had come from Atlanta.

Seems likely. On it's face, it seems to rule out PR because she'd know JR wasn't a Southerner. Of course, as an RDI, I'm required to see everything as possible staging, so she may have put that in to falsely indicate the note wasn't written by a Ramsey.

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Ames

Yeah, but I think that having the obit and the tombstone saying TWO different dates, looks REALLY suspicious. Why not have them both say the SAME thing??

Exactly what I was getting at. Of course you can always claim the paper got the date wrong.

The coroner couldn't give a time of death with any precission, so it could have been the 25th, but they didn't get home until nearly 10pm.

sweetcharlotte

10-15-2006, 04:12 PM

John picked the 25th to go on her marker and explained why in "The Death of Innocence."

Ames

10-15-2006, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

Exactly what I was getting at. Of course you can always claim the paper got the date wrong.

The coroner couldn't give a time of death with any precission, so it could have been the 25th, but they didn't get home until nearly 10pm.

So, are we to believe that since the tombstone says the 25th, that IT is the most accurate? I agree, if there wasn't any proof as to the date that she actually died...WHY put 25th on the tombstone?? If I had a doubt, I would have went with the 26th. OH WELL...I just thought that it was weird....and I have read other places where the date of her death is listed as the 26th, not just in the obit. IMO

Ames

10-15-2006, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte
John picked the 25th to go on her marker and explained why in "The Death of Innocence."

Haven't read DOI...what was his reasoning...can you remember?

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte
John picked the 25th to go on her marker and explained why in "The Death of Innocence."

Why then?

Or did you want us to run out and buy the book?

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Ames

So, are we to believe that since the tombstone says the 25th, that IT is the most accurate? I agree, if there wasn't any proof as to the date that she actually died...WHY put 25th on the tombstone?? If I had a doubt, I would have went with the 26th. OH WELL...I just thought that it was weird....and I have read other places where the date of her death is listed as the 26th, not just in the obit. IMO

Well, I'd never trust a paper very much. Even with things like dates. My hometown paper when it announced my birth (eons ago) got the day of the week wrong. The date was right, but they thought if fell on a Sat. In fact, it was Wed. This was reported only a week after the fact. You'd think someone could have looked at a Calendar on the wall. Yeah, I'd go with the stone.

sweetcharlotte

10-15-2006, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

Why then?

Or did you want us to run out and buy the book?

No, I want you to get it from the library and read it. Also read "Perfect Murder/Perfect Town" by Schiller, "The Cases That Haunt Us" by John Douglas, "Cracking More Cases" by Dr. Lee.
:)

O/T, but I just caught the ending on CTV of the Gary Gilmore story, "Executioner's Song", and was surprised that Lawrence Schiller was the one who bought Gilmore's story. I didn't know that.

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 04:32 PM

So you aren't going to tell us why JR chose the 25th?

sweetcharlotte

10-15-2006, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
So you aren't going to tell us why JR chose the 25th?

Would you believe I can't remember exactly what JR said in the book? It had to do with the 25th representing a day of peace and goodwill through the world - also the 25th was the last time they saw JonBenet alive.

Ames

10-15-2006, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte

No, I want you to get it from the library and read it. Also read "Perfect Murder/Perfect Town" by Schiller, "The Cases That Haunt Us" by John Douglas, "Cracking More Cases" by Dr. Lee.
:)

O/T, but I just caught the ending on CTV of the Gary Gilmore story, "Executioner's Song", and was surprised that Lawrence Schiller was the one who bought Gilmore's story. I didn't know that.

AWWW...come on Sweet....tell us why he chose the 25th for her tombstone. PLEASE...pretty please....with sugar on top. I am sick right now, and don't feel like running out to the library...besides..I think its closed right now anyway. We are counting on YOU sweet!!!

Ames

10-15-2006, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte

Would you believe I can't remember exactly what JR said in the book? It had to do with the 25th representing a day of peace and goodwill through the world - also the 25th was the last time they saw JonBenet alive.

Oh okay...thanks!

WallyCleaver

10-15-2006, 04:54 PM

Mimi428

10-15-2006, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

Seems likely. On it's face, it seems to rule out PR because she'd know JR wasn't a Southerner. Of course, as an RDI, I'm required to see everything as possible staging, so she may have put that in to falsely indicate the note wasn't written by a Ramsey.

There is also the theory that Patsy was referring to both her husband AND her father in the RN.

Louisadelmar

10-15-2006, 11:23 PM

I would have to go look it up but my recollection is John was stoic about Beths death as well. It was in either PMPT or DOI.

Ames

10-15-2006, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Louisadelmar
I would have to go look it up but my recollection is John was stoic about Beths death as well. It was in either PMPT or DOI.

Well, all I can say...is that he must be a very cold hearted person...IMO

Louisadelmar

10-16-2006, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Ames

Well, all I can say...is that he must be a very cold hearted person...IMO

Not necessarily. He may simply grieve in private as many, including myself, do. What is relevant is his behavior was similar in both daughter's deaths.

nuisanceposter

10-16-2006, 10:30 AM

But his behavior wasn't similar in both daughter's deaths. I've remarked on this before. He was devastated by Beth's death - he never got over the loss, keeping pictures of her around and just look at the amount of DOI that's spent talking about Beth's death and John's grief over it. You'd think Beth was the one killed by the constant and repeated references made to Beth's death and JR's destitution over it - his grief over JonBenet's murder is a fraction, a shadow, of the grief over Beth's death in a car accident. I've always thought that very odd.

Louisadelmar

10-16-2006, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
But his behavior wasn't similar in both daughter's deaths. I've remarked on this before. He was devastated by Beth's death - he never got over the loss, keeping pictures of her around and just look at the amount of DOI that's spent talking about Beth's death and John's grief over it. You'd think Beth was the one killed by the constant and repeated references made to Beth's death and JR's destitution over it - his grief over JonBenet's murder is a fraction, a shadow, of the grief over Beth's death in a car accident. I've always thought that very odd.

They have also talked about what a comfort it is to have so many pictures of JonBenet and how they talk about her a lot at home. The OP's view was that John never cried during interviews and they found that suspicious. My recollection is he also only cried in private when Beth was killed. I think his history is he is generally private with his emotions, both good and bad.

harz

10-16-2006, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Louisadelmar

They have also talked about what a comfort it is to have so many pictures of JonBenet and how they talk about her a lot at home. The OP's view was that John never cried during interviews and they found that suspicious. My recollection is he also only cried in private when Beth was killed. I think his history is he is generally private with his emotions, both good and bad.

http://www.acandyrose.com/timeline-transcripts1996.htm

1996-12-25 (--) Home movies were 'not' filmed Christmas morning in Boulder (DOI pg 4)
1996-12-25 (--) John Ramsey forgot to charge movie camera batteries (DOI pg 4)
1996-12-25 (--) John Ramsey didn't want home movies after Beth died in 1992 (DOI pg 4)

I found it interesting about home video, also most pictures of JB seemed to be glamours, pageant thing including make up, modelling clothings. His felt for Beth was stronger over JB, that he was closer to Beth. How Patsy treated JB, not as her daughter, but as her doll. Why would JR care about this doll to show emotions for? I just thought it was something to consider, IMO.

thewhitewitch1

10-16-2006, 11:29 AM

MyrDawn

10-16-2006, 11:35 AM

Well, I guess y'all better damn me then. I didn't shed a tear for months after my Mother died, and when I finally did, it was in private.

I guess my not going out in public to show my grief proves I didn't love her and maybe even somehow magically gave her the aneurysm that killed her

Sheesh...what incredibly silly lengths some RDI's go to in an attempt to "prove" to IDI's that John's guilty of murder.

:rolleyes:

nuisanceposter

10-16-2006, 11:53 AM

Saying John didn't exhibit the same amount of grief over JonBenet's murder that he did for Beth's death isn't saying he's guilty. He spent an incredible amount of time going into detail just how deeply in mourning he was for Beth in a book that was written right after JonBenet was murdered. He didn't spend near the same amount of time talking about grieving for JonBenet - it was a constant refrain of agony over the loss of Beth and how it's affecting the rest of his life. Seriously, you'd think Beth was the one murdered and not JonBenet.

I didn't cry much at my father's funeral. I'd pretty much cried myself out by the time we sat down in the church to eulogize him and say a final goodbye. My aunt even told me it was okay to cry, letting me know she'd noticed I wasn't and expected me to. Afterwards I set aside time to cry - as a mother I didn't want my children to see me in tears during daily life. I'd go cry when I knew I had some private time.

John Ramsey talks of doing the same thing - setting aside time to cry when he can do so privately, and nurse his grief and pained emotions by himself. He just doesn't mention grieving for JonBenet in near the same terms or amount of time he did with Beth.

lucky13

10-16-2006, 12:08 PM

I agree with Ames.......I've always been disturbed by John's lack of emotion. No tears, no sad look on his face, no worry, no concern... Whether everyone grieves differently or not, that little SMIRK on his face in the first interview & at the funeral was just CREEPY! ( Of course the IDI's didn't see it, I'm sure. lol. I saw it from the very beginning though, before I ever 'became' a RDI.)

MyrDawn

10-16-2006, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Ames

AWWW...come on Sweet....tell us why he chose the 25th for her tombstone. PLEASE...pretty please....with sugar on top. I am sick right now, and don't feel like running out to the library...besides..I think its closed right now anyway. We are counting on YOU sweet!!!

Here's what John told ABC (I beleive it was Buck Wolf that reported it) when asked about the date on JonBenet's headstone:

"When I found JonBenet, her body was cool to the touch, so we didn't know for sure when she died. I didn't want the world to ever forget what it did to my daughter on Christmas night, and for that reason I specifically chose December 25th to put on her headstone. I knew we would be criticized for that by the skeptics, but I felt strongly that I didn't want the world to ever forget what a monster did to my child on Christmas night."

Louisadelmar

10-16-2006, 12:38 PM

I follow "Project Runway" on Televisionwithoutpity.com and so often posters there claim to have seen smirks and assorted negative expressions on the designers they don't like. Those poster who like the designers don't see the smirks etc. It's purely subjective depending on one's point of view.

If John was guilty of killing his daughter why would he be smirking? What would have been his gain even for a premeditated killing? If he helped cover up a killing by Patsy or Burke, why would he be smirking? It would still be the tragic death of his little girl. Unless you believe he got some sort of pleasure out of her death and its aftermath there is no reason for him to be smirking.

thewhitewitch1

10-16-2006, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

Here's what John told ABC (I beleive it was Buck Wolf that reported it) when asked about the date on JonBenet's headstone:

"When I found JonBenet, her body was cool to the touch, so we didn't know for sure when she died. I didn't want the world to ever forget what it did to my daughter on Christmas night, and for that reason I specifically chose December 25th to put on her headstone. I knew we would be criticized for that by the skeptics, but I felt strongly that I didn't want the world to ever forget what a monster did to my child on Christmas night."

"What the world did to my daughter??" Hey, I wasn't there. I have an airtight alibi.

harz

10-16-2006, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

I didn't want the world to ever forget what it did to my daughter [/I]"

What does he meant " it "? He said it killed JB? Does it mean accident, such as things, not person? IMO

harz

10-16-2006, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1

"What the world did to my daughter??" Hey, I wasn't there. I have an airtight alibi.

Yeah, I think he meant the world refering to "it". I am slow on language, but I can't remember where was I on the nite of 25th that year lol. IMO

watson

10-16-2006, 04:39 PM

Thanks for the input everyone. I did a little research, here's what I came up with, although it could be wrong.......John born Nebraska 1943, moved to Michigan c.1950 with parents. John's father a decorated Navy flyer from WWII passed on hobbies of flying, sailing, golf to John. John went to schoool, high school, college all in MI. Got married to first wife right after college 1966. Did his 2 years military service in Navy, then returned home to MI to get a masters degree. He first moved to south and Atlanta GA 1973 for his second job out of college with a 'computer company'. He divorced from first wife 1977, spent 3 years tooling around Atlanta as a single guy with a sports car, and married 2nd wife Patsy 1980 when he was 37, she 23. Around the same time John employment ended and he started his own business in the couples basement. John knew the sales reps of computer manufactuers that sold computers to his ex employer, the idea being, they would sell computers to John's business and he would re-sell them (at a profit) to his ex-company and other companies. The business didn't do well, John and Patsy struggled financially, and at one time were bailed out by her father (Mr Paugh), a retired Union Carbide engineer who paid the couples debts, and put money in the business, in return for a 1/2 share of it. This proved a good investment because in 1988 Johns struggling business merged with 2 other companies at the begining of the 'merger boom' to form Access Graphics, John became a traveling sales VP for the new entity, this too looked like it might be in trouble but then the company was bought 1991 by corporate giant Lockheed Martin and John was bumped from sales VP to president of the division, besides being paid hugely for his shares, and the Ramsey's moved to CO. So, John became a millionaire only 4-5 years prior to the crime.
Patsy lived her whole life in WV. A northern state geographically, but one where people ID themselves as 'southern' or 'northern', Patsy, her sisters and mom, cultivated themselves as southern. Patsy won Miss WV in college, went to Atlanta for her first job out of college and met and married John there within a year.
By my tally that puts John 30 years in NB and MI, 18 years GA, 5 years CO before the crime, Patsy 22 years WV, 11 years GA, 5 years CO before the crime.
Is it significant whoever wrote the ransom letter went out of the way to call John a southerner?
Is it significant the Ramsey's referred to themselves by this term so much?
Source...Who killed JB Ramsey, Cyril Wecht, C. Bosworth Onyx 1998.

thewhitewitch1

10-16-2006, 10:13 PM

You know I, for one, agree with you, Ames.
LE examine the behavior of people all the time to try to determine guilt. It's not the only thing they look at but it's part of it so I don't see why we should not be allowed to do the same.

Athena

10-16-2006, 11:42 PM

Grief and Loss

Coping involves usually dealing with a grief reaction that can be slow and painful, and varies from individual to individual. Grief brings with it feelings of sadness, anger, yearning, and confusion that can be overwhelming. People express and deal with feelings in very different ways. Some cry and talk about it; some hold it in; and some avoid these difficult emotions. Depending on how close we are with the individual, these feelings can be quite intense. All of these are normal reactions to an abnormal event.

http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/caps/selfhelpgriefandloss.htm

There is no grief like losing a child, especially by homicide. " I remember the phone call telling me that my son, my first born, had been murdered. There are no words to describe the pain you feel. No one can know the pain and sorrow that survivors experience unless they themselves have gone through the horror of losing someone they love at the hands of another human being."

In the beginning most people feel a profound numbness. Some say it is like “being in a fog.” It may be this fog that allows you to accomplish the necessary arrangements for the funeral and other duties.

Ames

10-16-2006, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Athena
Grief and Loss

Coping involves usually dealing with a grief reaction that can be slow and painful, and varies from individual to individual. Grief brings with it feelings of sadness, anger, yearning, and confusion that can be overwhelming. People express and deal with feelings in very different ways. Some cry and talk about it; some hold it in; and some avoid these difficult emotions. Depending on how close we are with the individual, these feelings can be quite intense. All of these are normal reactions to an abnormal event.

http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/caps/selfhelpgriefandloss.htm

There is no grief like losing a child, especially by homicide. " I remember the phone call telling me that my son, my first born, had been murdered. There are no words to describe the pain you feel. No one can know the pain and sorrow that survivors experience unless they themselves have gone through the horror of losing someone they love at the hands of another human being."

In the beginning most people feel a profound numbness. Some say it is like “being in a fog.” It may be this fog that allows you to accomplish the necessary arrangements for the funeral and other duties.

I appreciate your post...and also appreciate you NOT attacking me personally as one poster seems to like to do. I would like to thank you for that....you are one of my favorite posters that I like to joke around with and disagree with. I know what you are trying to say in your post to me...but, not only did he not cry...he was just plain emotionless (is THAT a word? The spelling looks funny). I thought that he acted a bit COLD...but...AS ALWAYS...that is ONLY MY OPINION.

Athena

10-16-2006, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Ames

I appreciate your post...and also appreciate you NOT attacking me personally as one poster seems to like to do. I would like to thank you for that....you are one of my favorite posters that I like to joke around with and disagree with. I know what you are trying to say in your post to me...but, not only did he not cry...he was just plain emotionless (is THAT a word? The spelling looks funny). I thought that he acted a bit COLD...but...AS ALWAYS...that is ONLY MY OPINION.

Ames -- there is no reason for any of us to "attack" another for their opinions. Plus I like doing research.

On a serious note: The way one expresses grief is personal and I truly do not believe that one's behavior can be interpreted as to how they are or are not feeling. I would imagine the ones that don't cry are being eaten away on the inside. I've seen what it does first-hand since it appears my husband shares some of the traits exhibited by JR. Peronally I'm a crier!

Ames

10-17-2006, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by Athena

Ames -- there is no reason for any of us to "attack" another for their opinions. Plus I like doing research.

On a serious note: The way one expresses grief is personal and I truly do not believe that one's behavior can be interpreted as to how they are or are not feeling. I would imagine the ones that don't cry are being eaten away on the inside. I've seen what it does first-hand since it appears my husband shares some of the traits exhibited by JR. Peronally I'm a crier!

And I want to make one thing clear...I don't think that John NOT crying makes him guilty. I just thought that it was odd....and you are right...alot of men do not cry. I just guess that I expected to see a little bit more emotion in his interviews...to me, he didn't even seem sad or upset. But...as always...that is only my opinion.

MaryD

10-17-2006, 12:56 AM

Holly

You seem so hung up on Scott Peterson, as you know he is a convicted double murderer now facing a death penalty. So he has been proven guilty in a court of law. Many people perceived his guilt by his behaviors and attitudes, and I guess many of those brainless people were right.

Perception is not something taught in school, like intuition it is an inner instinct. It is usually learned through experiences and can be a useful tool in making personal decisions. How many of us haven't trusted our instincts and wound up in very detrimental situations. Nothing is 100% foolproof including our courts of law. But we can compare notes and validate each others perceptions to form opinions, it's called reality testing. So lighten up.

LindaA

10-17-2006, 10:26 AM

You make some good points, Holly, but IMO in the SP case, it was true about the smirk. It seems the people who think the RDI see guilt in everything the Rs do. Also, people smirk for many reasons. We are imposing our own interpretation in both cases, which may or may not be correct.

I agree they would have accused JR of shedding crocodile tears if he had cried as they did with Peterson. (also true IMO.)

However, I think insulting posters defeats your purpose. They may deserve it, but it just ends up in a battle that wastes time and bandwidth and contributes nothing to the solving of this horrible murder. JMO

nuisanceposter

10-17-2006, 11:45 AM

Do you always trust the judicial body to make the right decision, and is their decision always right?

What about Louise Woodward, on trial for the murder of the baby who was injured in her care and died? The jury found her guilty and the judge overturned it. Who was right there?

What about Ed Post? He was on trial for his wife's murder three times, because of problems with the trials...on one of them, the decision was thrown out because the jury was found to have been acting inappropriately.

nuisanceposter

10-17-2006, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Holly
We have the justice system that we adopted from the English Common Law; it has served us well for over 200 years until instant communication world wide was invented.

Are you suggesting that we change this time honored system?

Not at all, I was just wondering if you believe the person or group of persons making a decision in a trial can always be trusted to be correct with their verdict.

bullmoose

10-17-2006, 02:02 PM

I just want to add my 2 cents worth: While I think our system of justice, by jury or judge is about as fair as anything else humanity has come up with; whenever there is a trial where the guilt or innocence of the defendent[s] is disputed, I can only pray that justice is done, I cannot be certain. It is a huge responsibility to sit in judgment of another human being, especially when the death penalty is on the table.

MissOtisRegrets

10-17-2006, 02:20 PM

John Douglas came to the opposite conclusion from observing John Ramsey's body language and facial expressions. One thing he cites is Ramsey's blinking (a sign that he is visualizing a memory), while he tells of carrying JonBenet up from the basement. His conclusion was that Ramsey was telling the truth.

(Those of us who watched the Blake trial remember Robert Blake blinking uncontrollably while Prosecutor Shellie Samuels described the murder.)

thewhitewitch1

10-17-2006, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
John Douglas came to the opposite conclusion from observing John Ramsey's body language and facial expressions. One thing he cites is Ramsey's blinking (a sign that he is visualizing a memory), while he tells of carrying JonBenet up from the basement. His conclusion was that Ramsey was telling the truth.

(Those of us who watched the Blake trial remember Robert Blake blinking uncontrollably while Prosecutor Shellie Samuels described the murder.)

Wellm, really, MIssO...of course he is telling the truth that he carried her up the stairs. No one can dispute that. What does his body language say about everything else, would be more to the point.

MissOtisRegrets

10-17-2006, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1

Wellm, really, MIssO...of course he is telling the truth that he carried her up the stairs. No one can dispute that. What does his body language say about everything else, would be more to the point.

Well, really, WW1. He was describing his feelings at the moment. He was observed by Douglas to actually be reliving it as he spoke.

LindaA

10-17-2006, 02:37 PM

I think what TWW1 was saying in her inimitable style was that we don't doubt that JR carried JBR up the stairs; what she would like to see is a desaription of his behavior during a discussion of some other part of the crime. Did Dougles say anything about what John was doing when he described finding the body?

thewhitewitch1

10-17-2006, 02:42 PM

sweetcharlotte

10-17-2006, 03:01 PM

I'm not MissO and I'm not trying to answer TWW's question but another observation by Douglas was, "If surface behavior were that easy to interpret, it would take little or no training and anyone could be a profiler." "The Cases That Haunt Us" page 263.

John Walsh's comments - page 262 of same book - "Who are any of us to say how a person is supposed to react to something like this?"

JMO

bullmoose

10-17-2006, 03:54 PM

I have lived in N. Idaho for 30 years with my wife, who is from Oak Park, MI, and she still has a Detroit/Michigan accent; in the interviews of John Ramsey I've seen and heard, so does he. Even in Charlevoix, the accent is much the same; however when a troll[lower peninsula person] enters the UP, the accent is very different the furter west the stronger it gets,you bet, eh. I worked for ayear at a gold mine in Ishpeming; it took me three years[according to my wife] to get the yooper back out of my voice. IMO whoever wrote that note knew they had come to Boulder from Atlanta but nothing personal about John Ramsey. {GO TIGERS!}

bullmoose

10-17-2006, 04:41 PM

Elvis' tombstone at Graceland has his middle name misspelled. But I think he's inside nontheless; my point is I do not think that the fact that Jonbenet's tombstone says the 25th to be of too much significance to the case.

WallyCleaver

10-17-2006, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1

"What the world did to my daughter??" Hey, I wasn't there. I have an airtight alibi.

Hmmm, don't you own a pair of HITEC boots? :D

Ames

10-17-2006, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
John Douglas came to the opposite conclusion from observing John Ramsey's body language and facial expressions. One thing he cites is Ramsey's blinking (a sign that he is visualizing a memory), while he tells of carrying JonBenet up from the basement. His conclusion was that Ramsey was telling the truth.

(Those of us who watched the Blake trial remember Robert Blake blinking uncontrollably while Prosecutor Shellie Samuels described the murder.)

Really? I had always heard that blinking was a sign of lying...that AND not making eye contact. Not saying that John never made eye contact, though...but, remember Susan Smith...she NEVER would even look into the camera. I can ALWAYS tell if my husband is lying about something, because he blinks uncontrollably....and his MOM even said the same thing about him...LOL (Apparently he has done this since he was a kid!) IMO

MissOtisRegrets

10-17-2006, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by LindaA
I think what TWW1 was saying in her inimitable style was that we don't doubt that JR carried JBR up the stairs; what she would like to see is a desaription of his behavior during a discussion of some other part of the crime. Did Dougles say anything about what John was doing when he described finding the body?

He doesn't go into any other detail, Linda. Here is the passage:

"The Cases That Haunt Us" pg. 410-11:

I paid close attention to what he said, concentrating on his inflection, breathing, body language, word choice - matching him up against the experience I'd gained through thousands of interviews with both violent offenders and victims and their families. I took John through the entire morning and afternoon of December 26, up to when he said he discovered his daughter in the wine cellar. When he talked about carrying her upstairs, he started blinking, as if revisualizing the scene. Then he began to sob.

After I had spent about two hours with Ramsey, he excused himself to go to the washroom. I turned to Bryan Morgan, who'd been in the room the entire time, and said simply, "I believe him."

WallyCleaver

10-17-2006, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

He doesn't go into any other detail, Linda. Here is the passage:

"The Cases That Haunt Us" pg. 410-11:

I paid close attention to what he said, concentrating on his inflection, breathing, body language, word choice - matching him up against the experience I'd gained through thousands of interviews with both violent offenders and victims and their families. I took John through the entire morning and afternoon of December 26, up to when he said he discovered his daughter in the wine cellar. When he talked about carrying her upstairs, he started blinking, as if revisualizing the scene. Then he began to sob.

After I had spent about two hours with Ramsey, he excused himself to go to the washroom. I turned to Bryan Morgan, who'd been in the room the entire time, and said simply, "I believe him."

I'd believe JR too if he were paying me.

bullmoose

10-17-2006, 05:56 PM

wally, that is below you. You are saying that John Ramsey is paying off experts. Provide a link to show it before making such a pronouncement.

WallyCleaver

10-17-2006, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by bullmoose
wally, that is below you. You are saying that John Ramsey is paying off experts. Provide a link to show it before making such a pronouncement.

You think it's documented somewhere on the internet so that I can provide a link?

It's the nature of consultants that they give the client what he's paying for.

Even if Douglas genuinely believes JR - and he may- it does give one pause. The only profiler who thinks it wasn't a family job is the one paid by the family.

It's akin to shopping around for one's own polygraph examiner. It's just hard to put stock in it.

WallyCleaver

10-17-2006, 06:17 PM

I do generally respect Douglas, and I just purchased his book - the cases that haunt us. But, it's just hard to get past the idea that the man is being paid by the Rs. Not exactly the model of an independant analyst.

LadyFisher

10-17-2006, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
I do generally respect Douglas, and I just purchased his book - the cases that haunt us. But, it's just hard to get past the idea that the man is being paid by the Rs. Not exactly the model of an independant analyst. Have you read the book yet? I personally believe this guy really knows his stuff, Wally! There was no need for him to put a section concerning JB in his book, but he did....I think he truly doesn't believe it was a Ramsey! imho

WallyCleaver

10-17-2006, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Have you read the book yet? I personally believe this guy really knows his stuff, Wally! There was no need for him to put a section concerning JB in his book, but he did....I think he truly doesn't believe it was a Ramsey! imho

The book hasn't been delivered yet.

Athena

10-17-2006, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
I do generally respect Douglas, and I just purchased his book - the cases that haunt us. But, it's just hard to get past the idea that the man is being paid by the Rs. Not exactly the model of an independant analyst.

Douglas specifically stated "The important point I want to make here is that a criminal investigation is not a popularity contest. It is not, nor should it be directed or determined by public opinion or media influence".

Some have called me a "hired gun" in this case and it is true. I received a small fee early on, as I have in other cases in which I have consulted since leaving the Bureau. But I have never, ever offered an opinion that wasn't deeply felt and fully supported by my own belief and the facts as I saw them.

A criminal investigator has only one responsibility, and it is an extremely solemn one. It has to do neither with whom he or she works for, nor who is signing the paycheck. It should have nothing to do with personal glory or career advancement. It has only to do with the silent pledge made by the investigator to the VICTIM, who can no longer speak for herself, that he or she will do everything in his/her power to uncover the truth of what happened and bring the offender to the gates of earthly justice.

There is NOT enough money or fame in the entire world to lure me away from the enormity and seriousness of that pledge.

~John Douglas TCTHU ppgs 365-366

WallyCleaver

10-17-2006, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Douglas specifically stated "The important point I want to make here is that a criminal investigation is not a popularity contest. It is not, nor should it be directed or determined by public opinion or media influence".

Some have called me a "hired gun" in this case and it is true. I received a small fee early on, as I have in other cases in which I have consulted since leaving the Bureau. But I have never, ever offered an opinion that wasn't deeply felt and fully supported by my own belief and the facts as I saw them.

A criminal investigator has only one responsibility, and it is an extremely solemn one. It has to do neither with whom he or she works for, nor who is signing the paycheck. It should have nothing to do with personal glory or career advancement. It has only to do with the silent pledge made by the investigator to the VICTIM, who can no longer speak for herself, that he or she will do everything in his/her power to uncover the truth of what happened and bring the offender to the gates of earthly justice.

There is NOT enough money or fame in the entire world to lure me away from the enormity and seriousness of that pledge.

~John Douglas TCTHU ppgs 365-366

It's a wonderfully noble sounding statement, but IMO he is still tainted by having been paid by the Ramseys. This is why we generally have investigations done by the police, who are paid by the public, not the defendants.

I'm sorry, but I will always have reservations about Douglas' opinion in this case.

On other cases, such as the Black Dhalia, there would be no influence.

Louisadelmar

10-17-2006, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
I do generally respect Douglas, and I just purchased his book - the cases that haunt us. But, it's just hard to get past the idea that the man is being paid by the Rs. Not exactly the model of an independant analyst.

As pointed out by Athena he worked pro bono for the Ramseys (As he also does for other victims.) But my question is - Do you also have trouble getting passed the idea of experts being paid by the prosecution? Are they also not exactly models of independant analysis?

Athena

10-17-2006, 09:09 PM

WallyCleaver

10-17-2006, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Louisadelmar

As pointed out by Athena he worked pro bono for the Ramseys (As he also does for other victims.) But my question is - Do you also have trouble getting passed the idea of experts being paid by the prosecution? Are they also not exactly models of independant analysis?

Athena didn't point out that Douglas worked pro bono, she quoted him as saying he was a hired gun, and recieved a small fee. Whatever "small" is.

If you can tell me the size of the small fee, I'll tell you how far I think Douglas went in giving the Rs the answer they wanted.

Yes, I have a problem with experts paid by the prosecution. I have a problem with experts who aren't independant, and one can't really be independant of the hand that feeds.

WallyCleaver

10-17-2006, 09:52 PM

Before we get sidetracked on Mr. Douglas -

I'm not saying he's lying. I'm saying I'd feel better if he hadn't taken a fee from the Rs. As it is, I have to take his analysis with a grain of salt.

The CASKU unit of the FBI are essentially profilers too - experts in kidnapping. They think the probablility is the parents did it.

I'd also point out that profiling, like any human endeavor, can result in mistakes. Recall the highway shooters of a few years ago. The profilers had police looking for a white ex-military guy. Turned out to be two black guys.

So, w/o getting any further into whether or not Mr. Douglas was influenced by his fee, let's agree that Mr. Douglas, being human, could be wrong.

thewhitewitch1

10-17-2006, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

Hmmm, don't you own a pair of HITEC boots? :D

:eek: :lol:

Louisadelmar

10-17-2006, 10:13 PM

Ames

10-17-2006, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by bullmoose
Elvis' tombstone at Graceland has his middle name misspelled. But I think he's inside nontheless; my point is I do not think that the fact that Jonbenet's tombstone says the 25th to be of too much significance to the case.

Yep, I know...I was 12 when he died, but I heard about that from my cousin...(who is married to Elvis' cousin). And I have no doubt either that Elvis is in that grave....just as I have no doubt that JB is inside of her grave. Just thought it was odd that the 25th was put on the tombstone...considering nobody knows for sure the time of her death...and the fact that Christmas is such a special time for children. I would have put the 26th, on it ...just for THAT reason. I kinda, sorta understand JR reasoning behind it though..it was the last time that he says...that they saw JB alive. IMO

Athena

10-17-2006, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
Before we get sidetracked on Mr. Douglas -

I'm not saying he's lying. I'm saying I'd feel better if he hadn't taken a fee from the Rs. As it is, I have to take his analysis with a grain of salt.

The CASKU unit of the FBI are essentially profilers too - experts in kidnapping. They think the probablility is the parents did it.

I'd also point out that profiling, like any human endeavor, can result in mistakes. Recall the highway shooters of a few years ago. The profilers had police looking for a white ex-military guy. Turned out to be two black guys.

So, w/o getting any further into whether or not Mr. Douglas was influenced by his fee, let's agree that Mr. Douglas, being human, could be wrong.

The CASKU unit of the FBI did not interview the Ramseys either. I agree that anyone human can make errors -- however, even if JD is wrong; again I do not believe he would have jeopardized his integrity for deliberately siding with parents that may have killed their child.

O/T: I remember the case you are talking about above also. Although the guy was not a "white" man he was ex-military so that part they got right. Generally Black people are not serial killers.

I also remember the GA children that were killed and it turned out that it was a local Black guy although most authorities thought the killngs were racially motivated and possibly by the KKK. JD is the one that said it was a Black guy.

Hey - you win some; you lose some. But bottom line for me is that I truly believe JD believes what he says. He also basically got paid a consultation fee by the Ramsey lawyers; hired by the attorneys PI Armistead, paid for his airfare and put him up in a hotel. He doesn't state how much the consultation fee was. jmho

MissOtisRegrets

10-17-2006, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by Athena

The CASKU unit of the FBI did not interview the Ramseys either. I agree that anyone human can make errors -- however, even if JD is wrong; again I do not believe he would have jeopardized his integrity for deliberately siding with parents that may have killed their child.

O/T: I remember the case you are talking about above also. Although the guy was not a "white" man he was ex-military so that part they got right. Generally Black people are not serial killers.

I also remember the GA children that were killed and it turned out that it was a local Black guy although most authorities thought the killngs were racially motivated and possibly by the KKK. JD is the one that said it was a Black guy.

Hey - you win some; you lose some. But bottom line for me is that I truly believe JD believes what he says. He also basically got paid a consultation fee by the Ramsey lawyers; hired by the attorneys PI Armistead, paid for his airfare and put him up in a hotel. He doesn't state how much the consultation fee was. jmho

In TCTHU, Douglas seems to be of the opinion that he was being hired by the Ramsey attorneys because they wanted to know for themselves what he thought of John Ramsey, not because they wanted him to tell them what he thought they wanted to hear. I believe at this point it was still thought there was semen on the body.

LadyFisher

10-18-2006, 12:55 AM

WallyCleaver

10-18-2006, 04:30 AM

MyrDawn

10-18-2006, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by bullmoose
I have lived in N. Idaho for 30 years with my wife, who is from Oak Park, MI, and she still has a Detroit/Michigan accent; in the interviews of John Ramsey I've seen and heard, so does he. Even in Charlevoix, the accent is much the same; however when a troll[lower peninsula person] enters the UP, the accent is very different the furter west the stronger it gets,you bet, eh. I worked for ayear at a gold mine in Ishpeming; it took me three years[according to my wife] to get the yooper back out of my voice. IMO whoever wrote that note knew they had come to Boulder from Atlanta but nothing personal about John Ramsey. {GO TIGERS!}

I aggree, IMO the person that wrote the ransom note only knew that the Ramsey's had lived in Atlanta for several years before moving to Boulder. Considering John and Patsy met in Atlanta, got married there, and lived there for eleven years before moving to Boulder, it's not surprising that someone that didn't know them very well might have the impression they were both originally from the South, even though only Patsy was.

MOO

nuisanceposter

10-18-2006, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by LadyFisher
But Mimi told me awhile back that Chief Moose said in his book that the FBI never profiled a lone white male...I thought they had, but I was guilty of listening to the media hype....so which is it, did they or didn't they profile the DC sniper as a white male? :confused:

I have Moose's book, I'll go look and get back.

I live real close to DC, and those days were grim. I used to sit and wait for Police Chief Moose to come out and let us know what was going on. They had all the schools on lock-down for weeks, people were afraid to pump gas or even walk through parking lots, and those guys were caught just 40 miles from my house.

MyrDawn

10-18-2006, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
But his behavior wasn't similar in both daughter's deaths. I've remarked on this before. He was devastated by Beth's death - he never got over the loss, keeping pictures of her around and just look at the amount of DOI that's spent talking about Beth's death and John's grief over it. You'd think Beth was the one killed by the constant and repeated references made to Beth's death and JR's destitution over it - his grief over JonBenet's murder is a fraction, a shadow, of the grief over Beth's death in a car accident. I've always thought that very odd.

How can you say his grief over JonBenet's murder is "a fraction, a shadow", of the grief over Beth's death. You have no idea how much he grieved! All you've seen is how he acted in public!

Just because a person doesn't cry openly in public does NOT mean they are not grieving!

MOO

nuisanceposter

10-18-2006, 10:20 AM

I can't find the book right now (I have a lot of books), but I found this. It's quotes from former FBI profiler Clint van Zandt.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11481546/

It was the “why” relating to the Washington, D.C., sniper case that challenged authorities in a similar manner. Most remember the massive hunt for a lone white male in a white van, neither of which proved to be the case. Here’s the challenge for profilers. Most profiles are based on statistics. Most snipers are lone white males. As an analyst for television news, I offered that this was the normal profile for such an offender, but I further indicated that this was more likely a team vs. a lone sniper, further suggesting that this was a two-man team, one older with military experience, and one person somewhat younger. I also indicated that – even in the face of so-called eye witnesses—because every white van between Maryland and southern Virginia that was being driven by a lone white male had been stopped and checked out by troopers and FBI Agents, I felt that the shooters were neither white nor driving around in a white van.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/09/cnna.vanzandt/

That's like when we've been talking on your program, we've been very careful not to say well, this is a white male between 18 and 25 who's 6-foot-tall who dropped out of high school in the 11th grade, hypothetically.

You know, whether the FBI develops that specific profile or not, the last thing I would want to do, and I think anybody else would want to do, is say, "Wink, wink, nod, nod, let me tell you the secret profile that the bureau has." And therefore you, the public, can self-eliminate anyone else who doesn't fit that profile.

I remember Moose being vague as to who was being looked for. He mainly just reassured everyone that police were steady on the case, they wanted any tips and leads possible, and people should try to go about their normal everyday business, but with a close eye out.

The white box truck turned out to be a false start, but they were saying back then that darker-skinned men were seen around at the time of one of the shootings, possibly Hispanic. Part of the scariness of the whole DC sniper situation was that we had no idea who it was or what he looked like.

nuisanceposter

10-18-2006, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

How can you say his grief over JonBenet's murder is "a fraction, a shadow", of the grief over Beth's death. You have no idea how much he grieved! All you've seen is how he acted in public!

Just because a person doesn't cry openly in public does NOT mean they are not grieving!

MOO

Well, I'm not going on how I saw him act in public, I'm going on what he was saying in DOI.

He wasn't talking about how devastated he was that JonBenet had been murdered, he was talking about how hunted and outraged he felt by the media hounding him and his family, and how he was upset with the police who suspected him and Patsy (but not so much the murderer.)

He wasn't talking about his grief over the loss of JonBenet, he was obsessively going on about his painful grief and mourning over the loss of Beth. That book is more about Beth and how crippled John was by her death than it is about JonBenet, his grief over losing her (I repeat, a shadow, a fraction of the loss he speaks of over Beth) and how John's working to find the real killer and give JB justice.

Beth's death and John's response to it gets way more mention than his grief over losing JonBenet.

MyrDawn

10-18-2006, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

You think it's documented somewhere on the internet so that I can provide a link?

It's the nature of consultants that they give the client what he's paying for.

Even if Douglas genuinely believes JR - and he may- it does give one pause. The only profiler who thinks it wasn't a family job is the one paid by the family.

It's akin to shopping around for one's own polygraph examiner. It's just hard to put stock in it.

If it's the nature of consultants that they give the client what he's paying for, then please explain why Lou Smit came to the conclusion the Ramsey's were innocent while he was being paid by the Boulder LE?

MyrDawn

10-18-2006, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

I don't know. I don't have much respect for the media, but one has to wonder where they got the idea.

From the tabloids, I'll bet. More and more the so called "legitimate" media is jumping on what the tabloids report, without checking it out for themselves. Not just the Ramsey case. It happens VERY frequently these days.

MOO

LadyFisher

10-18-2006, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

I have Moose's book, I'll go look and get back.

I live real close to DC, and those days were grim. I used to sit and wait for Police Chief Moose to come out and let us know what was going on. They had all the schools on lock-down for weeks, people were afraid to pump gas or even walk through parking lots, and those guys were caught just 40 miles from my house. It must have been terrible for you folks....I followed it closely on the news...my heart went out to you folks in that area! :seeya:

nuisanceposter

10-18-2006, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by LadyFisher
It must have been terrible for you folks....I followed it closely on the news...my heart went out to you folks in that area! :seeya:

Thank you. It was very surreal. It made you question something as simple as going to the grocery store to get milk and bread. I was so upset when the 13 yr old boy was shot, right out front of his school! Shooting adults is one thing, but kids! And his aunt had just dropped him off, and was still there in her car, just a few steps away from him when he was shot. Thank goodness he wasn't killed and came through surgery okay.

MyrDawn

10-18-2006, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

Thank you. It was very surreal. It made you question something as simple as going to the grocery store to get milk and bread. I was so upset when the 13 yr old boy was shot, right out front of his school! Shooting adults is one thing, but kids! And his aunt had just dropped him off, and was still there in her car, just a few steps away from him when he was shot. Thank goodness he wasn't killed and came through surgery okay.

That really shook me up! Not that the other snipings didn't shake me up, but a child!

My oldest daughter has lived in Hagerstown MD for the past 15 years, and she works on Fort Detrick in Frederick, so she travels the part of I-70 daily, (going right past that rest area near Myersville), where one of the shootings occured, both to and from work. She also has to go into DC several times a month. I was scared to death until they caught the snipers!

nuisanceposter

10-18-2006, 12:25 PM

Same here. It's bad enough that adults are being shot just going from store to car or mowing the lawn or pumping gas, but when children start becoming targets, at school no less, that's beyond too much. I was so worried an elementary school would be their next stop.

I love Hagerstown. I lived there a few years ago myself. Have you visited the city park? It's so beautiful, with walking paths and a huge pond with bridges and playgrounds and sit-down areas. Hagerstown has pretty good shopping as well, and the old downtown section is nice.

I live north of Frederick, but we're all familiar with Ft Detrick in this neck of the woods. Ugh, the anthrax in the mail scare...they closed off the back roads up in the watershed and drained the ponds looking for evidence. I drove up there to see what was going on and they had the main state park road shut down with black trucks and soldiers and guys in suits stationed at a table in the road.

I've been to that same rest area myself, and eaten at the McD's the MCPD set up shop in. It was weird to see tiny little Myersville make headlines, but I'm just glad they found those guys.

I bet you were scared. Thank goodness your daughter was never their target.

sweet diane

10-18-2006, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

...snipped for space..

I hate to say it but up here in Michigan there is quite a bit of prejudice against southern accents. Many southerners who move here take great trouble to loose the southern sound.

Yet Michigan's elderly come down here with their accents, en masse every winter! (and try and tell us how much better they do it up there and compliment our 'lovely southern accents'). lol):rolleyes:

Back on topic. I've never considered John Ramsey as southern, yet he did marry a southener. IMHO, living in Atlanta doesn't make him a southener any more that me moving to Michigan would make me a northener. Curious as to why the murderer put that in the 'ransom' note. A southener by proxy??

bookratt

10-18-2006, 12:29 PM

put that part in about Southern common sense specifically aimed at John. And the part about "don't grow a brain" was pretty specific, too.

They sound like Patys's own words, directed to her husband, with whom she was angry. Sarcasm rather than swearing, wordy, overly dramatic threats rather than direct, logical ones? Sounds like a woman and not one used to facing problems and conflicts head-on.

Don't flame me, I'm a woman, too. But younger than Patsy. Women of a certain age, especially those who think they are southern belles and want others to think of them as such, might resort to this type of language when swearing, name calling and direct accusations, otherwise they were not thought of as "nice".

More common then than now, when women (and men) preferred to think of women as nice, rather than mad or mean. Think of your grandma once upon a time. Sarcasm, grumbling, passive-aggressiveness, rather than direct attacks or swear words probably were more her word weapons of choice. Or perhaps fake happiness and smiles all around for people outside the family and a lot less "honey" in the voice directed, at times, at those who knew her best?

Sounds a lot like a female "voice" to me and the faux threats, weak words, etc---just do not sound mannish, for want of a better term.

Take, for example, the "bless your heart" or "bless her heart" passive aggressive comment many "southern belles" use when they want to express dismay or disagreement---or downright dislike---of another person and their behavior. They might not say "she's an idiot" or "wasn't that stupid of her", but they might say "And to think she thought that dress was appropriate for the Governor's Ball. Bless her heart." Meaning--- she's an idiot and everyone knows it.

That's kind of what the note sounds like to me. Someone angry but they won't admit why. Someone mad for a specific reason, but doesn't want to admit that either, so they backpedal with that contradictory and weird "we respect you but not your business" comment.

It's like what we used to call a backhanded compliment, intended to appear nice, but actually a slap in the face when the full import of the words were realized.

That note says a lot about who wrote it.

MyrDawn

10-18-2006, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

The book hasn't been delivered yet.

Please read the whole book. You'll see that he bases his belief on the Ramseys innocence by using the same deductive resoning that he reached his conclusions in the other cases. Very sensible deductions and reasons, based on his many years of experience, which he spells out very clearly.

If he'd drawn his concluclusions using different reasoning than he did the other cases, I'd be skeptical, too. But, he uses the same logic and deductive reasoning throughout the book.

MyrDawn

10-18-2006, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
Same here. It's bad enough that adults are being shot just going from store to car or mowing the lawn or pumping gas, but when children start becoming targets, at school no less, that's beyond too much. I was so worried an elementary school would be their next stop.

I love Hagerstown. I lived there a few years ago myself. Have you visited the city park? It's so beautiful, with walking paths and a huge pond with bridges and playgrounds and sit-down areas. Hagerstown has pretty good shopping as well, and the old downtown section is nice.

I live north of Frederick, but we're all familiar with Ft Detrick in this neck of the woods. Ugh, the anthrax in the mail scare...they closed off the back roads up in the watershed and drained the ponds looking for evidence. I drove up there to see what was going on and they had the main state park road shut down with black trucks and soldiers and guys in suits stationed at a table in the road.

I've been to that same rest area myself, and eaten at the McD's the MCPD set up shop in. It was weird to see tiny little Myersville make headlines, but I'm just glad they found those guys.

I bet you were scared. Thank goodness your daughter was never their target.

The Hagerstown city park is gorgeous! My daughter has shown me all over the area. Including antique shopping with I love. LOL

I'm a Civil War buff, so she's taken me to tour the battlefields at Antietam and Gettysburg, too.

She even was able to take me on a tour of Camp David, which was something I've never dreamed I'd be able to do. That was before the attack oh the towers, and the security was incredible, and I'm sure it would be impossile for a lowley person like me to get anywhere near Camp David now-a-days.

Not that I'm immune to the murders of adults, but like you, I feel it's beyond too much when children are targeted. That's why I feel so bad JonBenet's murderer has never been brought to justice, no matter who it was. Too bad Chief Moose wasn't heading the Boulder PD in 1996!

nuisanceposter

10-18-2006, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

The Hagerstown city park is gorgeous! My daughter has shown me all over the area. Including antique shopping with I love. LOL

I'm a Civil War buff, so she's taken me to tour the battlefields at Antietam and Gettysburg, too.

She even was able to take me on a tour of Camp David, which was something I've never dreamed I'd be able to do. That was before the attack oh the towers, and the security was incredible, and I'm sure it would be impossile for a lowley person like me to get anywhere near Camp David now-a-days.

Not that I'm immune to the murders of adults, but like you, I feel it's beyond too much when children are targeted. That's why I feel so bad JonBenet's murderer has never been brought to justice, no matter who it was. Too bad Chief Moose wasn't heading the Boulder PD in 1996!

The antique shopping is incredible, and I'm a bit of a Civil War enthusiast also. It's hard not to be with so much history right around you. The battlefields are always interesting.

Camp David, wow, you lucky! I always know when the prez is at Camp David - you see the helicopters fly overhead and hear the patrolling jets.

I know, I care about adult victims too, but how DARE anyone attack a child! My heart breaks for JonBenet and I'll never be able to forget her sweet little face. I ache for Shasta Groene too, that dear strong little girl. Yes, I'd like to see what Chief Moose would have done with the Ramsey case - I've always had a good opinion of him.

It's so nice to find I have unexpected things in common with those on the other side of the fence in the JBR case. Please know that even if I disagree with you and argue over points, it's never personal and I don't mean to be rude - I just like to debate. :)

MyrDawn

10-18-2006, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

The antique shopping is incredible, and I'm a bit of a Civil War enthusiast also. It's hard not to be with so much history right around you. The battlefields are always interesting.

Camp David, wow, you lucky! I always know when the prez is at Camp David - you see the helicopters fly overhead and hear the patrolling jets.

I know, I care about adult victims too, but how DARE anyone attack a child! My heart breaks for JonBenet and I'll never be able to forget her sweet little face. I ache for Shasta Groene too, that dear strong little girl. Yes, I'd like to see what Chief Moose would have done with the Ramsey case - I've always had a good opinion of him.

It's so nice to find I have unexpected things in common with those on the other side of the fence in the JBR case. Please know that even if I disagree with you and argue over points, it's never personal and I don't mean to be rude - I just like to debate. :)

I almost didn't get the tour of Camp David. My daughter had to put in for permission for me to go, and get my clearance, well ahead of time. A couple days before it was scheduled, the prez (Clinton) decided he wanted to go there, so they told her I couldn't go, but then he changed his mind, so they let me.

Oh, that poor Shasta Groene! And, I feel so awful about GirlX, the 9 year old, that was attacked so horribly in Cabrini Green only a couple weeks after JonBenet was murdered. Thank goodness she survived, but I imagine she'll have nightmares the rest of her life after what was done to her!

It is nice to find we have things in common! We both are after the same goal here, after all...justice for JonBenet, no matter who her killer is. I definitely respect you for that!

chatwuann

10-18-2006, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Ames

Then why did you respond???

The first time I responded before I read Athena's post and I had already responded to the other behavior comment. I just thought in the future that it was wise not to do so again.

LadyFisher

10-18-2006, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

I almost didn't get the tour of Camp David. My daughter had to put in for permission for me to go, and get my clearance, well ahead of time. A couple days before it was scheduled, the prez (Clinton) decided he wanted to go there, so they told her I couldn't go, but then he changed his mind, so they let me.

Oh, that poor Shasta Groene! And, I feel so awful about GirlX, the 9 year old, that was attacked so horribly in Cabrini Green only a couple weeks after JonBenet was murdered. Thank goodness she survived, but I imagine she'll have nightmares the rest of her life after what was done to her!

It is nice to find we have things in common! We both are after the same goal here, after all...justice for JonBenet, no matter who her killer is. I definitely respect you for that! :eek: Did I hear nuisance mention ANTIQUES? I love them! Yes, Myr, it's nice for us to realize that the person we're posting to is human and we're not just talking to a computer! :seeya:

Athena

10-18-2006, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

I have Moose's book, I'll go look and get back.

I live real close to DC, and those days were grim. I used to sit and wait for Police Chief Moose to come out and let us know what was going on. They had all the schools on lock-down for weeks, people were afraid to pump gas or even walk through parking lots, and those guys were caught just 40 miles from my house.

Wow nuisance..... I cannot even imagine what you and your family were going through. I was afraid for all of the residents down there. :rose:

Athena

10-18-2006, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by LadyFisher
:eek: Did I hear nuisance mention ANTIQUES? I love them! Yes, Myr, it's nice for us to realize that the person we're posting to is human and we're not just talking to a computer! :seeya:

Indeed!!! So funny after this is all over and we all meet somewhere else -- the ones that agree here may disagree and vice versa -- that's why it just doesn't make sense when people go in "personal attack" mode. It is a message board but behind these posts many are "faceless friends". I have "met" alot of people on CTV who I have vehemently disagreed and meet up with them elsewhere and we're old friends. :)

Athena

10-18-2006, 07:54 PM

Athena

10-18-2006, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

From the tabloids, I'll bet. More and more the so called "legitimate" media is jumping on what the tabloids report, without checking it out for themselves. Not just the Ramsey case. It happens VERY frequently these days.

MOO

The media has totally gotten out of control. Everytime I see a reporter stick their microphone in someone's face after something horrific has just happened to them and ask them how they feel -- I just jump up and want to answer for the person "how the f*** do you think I feel?" Ugh. :flamemad:

FurthurBB

10-18-2006, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by WallyCleaver

It's a wonderfully noble sounding statement, but IMO he is still tainted by having been paid by the Ramseys. This is why we generally have investigations done by the police, who are paid by the public, not the defendants.

I'm sorry, but I will always have reservations about Douglas' opinion in this case.

On other cases, such as the Black Dhalia, there would be no influence.

Police are often as tainted as anyone. IMOO

Ames

10-18-2006, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by bookratt
put that part in about Southern common sense specifically aimed at John. And the part about "don't grow a brain" was pretty specific, too.

They sound like Patys's own words, directed to her husband, with whom she was angry. Sarcasm rather than swearing, wordy, overly dramatic threats rather than direct, logical ones? Sounds like a woman and not one used to facing problems and conflicts head-on.

Don't flame me, I'm a woman, too. But younger than Patsy. Women of a certain age, especially those who think they are southern belles and want others to think of them as such, might resort to this type of language when swearing, name calling and direct accusations, otherwise they were not thought of as "nice".

More common then than now, when women (and men) preferred to think of women as nice, rather than mad or mean. Think of your grandma once upon a time. Sarcasm, grumbling, passive-aggressiveness, rather than direct attacks or swear words probably were more her word weapons of choice. Or perhaps fake happiness and smiles all around for people outside the family and a lot less "honey" in the voice directed, at times, at those who knew her best?

Sounds a lot like a female "voice" to me and the faux threats, weak words, etc---just do not sound mannish, for want of a better term.

Take, for example, the "bless your heart" or "bless her heart" passive aggressive comment many "southern belles" use when they want to express dismay or disagreement---or downright dislike---of another person and their behavior. They might not say "she's an idiot" or "wasn't that stupid of her", but they might say "And to think she thought that dress was appropriate for the Governor's Ball. Bless her heart." Meaning--- she's an idiot and everyone knows it.

That's kind of what the note sounds like to me. Someone angry but they won't admit why. Someone mad for a specific reason, but doesn't want to admit that either, so they backpedal with that contradictory and weird "we respect you but not your business" comment.

It's like what we used to call a backhanded compliment, intended to appear nice, but actually a slap in the face when the full import of the words were realized.

That note says a lot about who wrote it.

Being orginially from South Carolina...I have to say that you are absolutely right, about the use of "Bless her/his heart" intended as a backhanded compliment. I had never thought about that before, but that phrase is still used alot down south. I believe that Patsy was also mad at John...when she wrote the ransom letter...IMO. And I can't resist.....And to think, those IDI folks really think that their theory is the right one, well bless their hearts. ;)

humanpolygraph

10-18-2006, 11:36 PM

Dearest Burke,
You are in college now and I have a feeling you will be checking out these posts one day online and I feel you may greatly benefit all of these posters if you post under an anonymous name and somehow clue us in on what happened. All of the people on these boards love and care about your sister so much (at least I do) and really would love closure to this case. It affects us all, the people who believe your parents are innocent and the ones who think they are involved. We have stayed up (at least I certainly have) night after night over the last ten years trying to figure out what happened and what could have possibly gone wrong that night. I have cried many a nights for your poor little sis and I beleive that one day your confession, or lack thereof, could bring peace to some of us that have these long sleepless nights contemplating this situation. I hope you dont think it to forward of me to ask you to post on here, its just that maybe it will give you some verbal catharsis and resolution if you could post annonymously since no one would know it was you and you couldnt get in trouble from anyone, just a thought, I feel for you I really do. Im sorry youve had to go through this and maybe I shouldnt even be asking you this. You have been caught up in a whirlwind for something that you did not create and are stuck in a situation where you are not able to talk about anything. God bless you for staying strong and I hope life brings you great joy wherever you are. Thanks so much,

Poly~

humanpolygraph

10-18-2006, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Ames

HI there TWW...welcome to my thread!

Yes, I am sure that he was crying on the inside...LOL (thats funny). The first thing that I noticed when I watched their first interview, was the lack of emotion from John...he just sat there like a rock. And Patsy's caked on makeup...thats the second thing that I noticed...she looked like Tammy Faye Baker. I remembered thinking, that I would be such a basket case, that I wouldn't even put makeup on! WHO CARES what you look like....when your daughter was just murdered...and the killer is "still out there". (Guess she had to look nice for the cameras, though...afterall...the whole nation was watching). IMO

Your right! hahaah John looks like BO and patsy looks like tammy fay heheheheahhaha thats not nice im sorry god, but its true. i just started reading your thread...im liking it allready rothf!

humanpolygraph

10-18-2006, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by Ames

Then why did you respond???

AMES MY GOD, IM NOT SUPPOSED TO LAUGH LIKETHIS ON A TOPIC THAT IS SO SERIOUS...STOP THIS LOLOLOLOL

humanpolygraph

10-19-2006, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by chatwuann
Thanks for responding to my post Athena. You're right it is a waste of time to respond to posts regarding behavior especially when it comes to the JBR case. JMO

I have to disagree with you both on this one, IMO (have to make sure i say that lol or some of you will freak) I tend to agree that not everyone cries or shows emotion some of the time, but to never show emotion is what makes me wonder. My theory is that it is the "collective" behavior that matters. When I studied Psychology we were taught that your personal beliefs propogate your behavior and vice versa, and that behavior is a key element to what is going on in your enviornment. To never show emotion of an outwardly display or to continuously never show behaviors that are consistant with someone who has lost someone so dear to them only leads one to think that this is not the case with these people. If every behavior shown is odd then obviously something is not right, but then again, who is telling us that the behavior is odd, the police? are they lieing? we dont know. I am about to read some more books as was suggested to me by athena and try to see what "behaviors" are truly the ones that were shown that day in question. But to say that behavior does not matter is simply untrue.

humanpolygraph

10-19-2006, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by Ames

I still cannot figure out why John put a SCARF into the casket with JB. What special meaning could that possibly have had to a six year old...(she wasn't 60)? I think that the scarf was connected to the murder in some way, and he wanted it GONE. I think that the reason for the quickie funeral(s), and the reason that they don't want the body exhumed....is the same. Shoot, when my mom passed away, with all of the preparations..it took us three days just to have the funeral. I had never thought about it before, but JB's funeral(s) was/were a rush job. IMO

That is odd! Why would he bury a scarf with her, it wasnt like it was her favorite teddy bear, butthat makes since, especially if that was the murder weapon, no one would ever find it now.

antares

10-19-2006, 02:09 AM

I don't think Burke owes any of us anything. I think quite a few of us are upset about what happened to the little girl. But, she was not our sister. This tragedy didn't befall our own families.

Maybe your intentions were good in writing this, but, it sounds as if you're begging Burke to satisfy your curiosity. We're all curious. Maybe Burke is even more curious than we can imagine? Whatever the case may be, he owes us nothing.

Sorry if this post sounds mean. But, this is not our life, it's his. He has probably been traumatized enough. Just let him live his life.

harz

10-19-2006, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by humanpolygraph

That is odd! Why would he bury a scarf with her, it wasnt like it was her favorite teddy bear, butthat makes since, especially if that was the murder weapon, no one would ever find it now.

The scarf is still in coffin at Atlanta, anyone can go there digging it out to examine the evidences if they want to. IMO

harz

10-19-2006, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by antares
I don't think Burke owes any of us anything. I think quite a few of us are upset about what happened to the little girl. But, she was not our sister. This tragedy didn't befall our own families.

Maybe your intentions were good in writing this, but, it sounds as if you're begging Burke to satisfy your curiosity. We're all curious. Maybe Burke is even more curious than we can imagine? Whatever the case may be, he owes us nothing.

Sorry if this post sounds mean. But, this is not our life, it's his. He has probably been traumatized enough. Just let him live his life.

Perhaps he owes us nothing, but what about JB? Her killer is still out there who ended 6 years of her life, even assaulted her with paintbrush stick & garrote, how does it honor her if key players on this case refuse to cooperate sharing their details or knowledge until this case is solved. If he was very curious, he would join here discussing, do anything to find the truth to the killer. I don’t think he was that traumatized, or still is, there no signs of that since. If JB was my sister, I would pursue the truth; even ask outside help for their perspectives. It makes me wonder if Burke was being blinded & oppressed by his parents when he grew up since JB’s murder. JMO

antares

10-19-2006, 02:38 AM

West Virginia is considered a southern state.

antares

10-19-2006, 02:43 AM

JonBenet certainly deserves justice. She was murdered. Whoever murdered her should pay for the evil crime. But, if Burke has nothing to tell that he has not already told, then he should be left alone.

To his sister and justice. Not to curious onlookers.

harz

10-19-2006, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by antares
JonBenet certainly deserves justice. She was murdered. Whoever murdered her should pay for the evil crime. But, if Burke has nothing to tell that he has not already told, then he should be left alone.

To his sister and justice. Not to curious onlookers.

True, many or all of us here on forum are curious onlookers, but Burke was lawyered up by his dad when he turned into 18 sametime BPD want Burke for questionings, not because BPD were curious, they want this case to be solved. I believe Burke doesn't want to share anything because he or his family doesn't want the public to learn the truth, but that's my opinion.

antares

10-19-2006, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by harz

True, many or all of us here on forum are curious onlookers, but Burke was lawyered up by his dad when he turned into 18 sametime BPD want Burke for questionings, not because BPD were curious, they want this case to be solved. I believe Burke doesn't want to share anything because he or his family doesn't want the public to learn the truth, but that's my opinion.

Harz, that is possible. If Burke does know something he should tell.

antares

10-19-2006, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

From the tabloids, I'll bet. More and more the so called "legitimate" media is jumping on what the tabloids report, without checking it out for themselves. Not just the Ramsey case. It happens VERY frequently these days.

MOO

MyrDawn you are committing the unforgiveable sin of making too much sense.

Read the tabloids. Go for sensational. Quit being so dang logical.

Logic can lead to weird stuff. Edison and Einstein had problems with it as well. Cure? Read the tabloids.

antares

10-19-2006, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by Ames

Being orginially from South Carolina...I have to say that you are absolutely right, about the use of "Bless her/his heart" intended as a backhanded compliment. I had never thought about that before, but that phrase is still used alot down south. I believe that Patsy was also mad at John...when she wrote the ransom letter...IMO. And I can't resist.....And to think, those IDI folks really think that their theory is the right one, well bless their hearts. ;)

Bless your heart, Ames. Northerners say it too, and for the same purposes. That phrase isn't regional.

Bless your heart, lol.

antares

10-19-2006, 03:43 AM

Originally posted by harz
Does JR as southerner mostly has to do with his accents?

Harz, North and South are more than just accents. It's a long story.....

What we're talking about here are phrases used in certain regions of the US. Some sayings are strictly regional. Others are mostly confined to certain areas, but have moved on to others. Some are universal (in the sense of being American)

For example, the phrase "y'all" has a southern origin but has loosely been adopted by northerners (especially on the internet, lol). Then there are other colloquialisms popularized through media. Such as...I don't know, I don't even watch much tv. lol.

In an earlier day and age, language differences could probably be more easily pinpointed. Media have made language more universal. No, dialects are not gone....accents, and sayings are not gone, they're just more blended now.

If you were confused before, you're probably more confused now. Sorry.

Maybe someone with better communication skills can explain.

sweetcharlotte

10-19-2006, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by bookratt
[B

<snp>

Take, for example, the "bless your heart" or "bless her heart" passive aggressive comment many "southern belles" use when they want to express dismay or disagreement---or downright dislike---of another person and their behavior. They might not say "she's an idiot" or "wasn't that stupid of her", but they might say "And to think she thought that dress was appropriate for the Governor's Ball. Bless her heart." Meaning--- she's an idiot and everyone knows it.

<snip>

[/B]

:o

antares

10-19-2006, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by bookratt
put that part in about Southern common sense specifically aimed at John. And the part about "don't grow a brain" was pretty specific, too.

They sound like Patys's own words, directed to her husband, with whom she was angry. Sarcasm rather than swearing, wordy, overly dramatic threats rather than direct, logical ones? Sounds like a woman and not one used to facing problems and conflicts head-on.

Don't flame me, I'm a woman, too. But younger than Patsy. Women of a certain age, especially those who think they are southern belles and want others to think of them as such, might resort to this type of language when swearing, name calling and direct accusations, otherwise they were not thought of as "nice".

More common then than now, when women (and men) preferred to think of women as nice, rather than mad or mean. Think of your grandma once upon a time. Sarcasm, grumbling, passive-aggressiveness, rather than direct attacks or swear words probably were more her word weapons of choice. Or perhaps fake happiness and smiles all around for people outside the family and a lot less "honey" in the voice directed, at times, at those who knew her best?

Sounds a lot like a female "voice" to me and the faux threats, weak words, etc---just do not sound mannish, for want of a better term.

Take, for example, the "bless your heart" or "bless her heart" passive aggressive comment many "southern belles" use when they want to express dismay or disagreement---or downright dislike---of another person and their behavior. They might not say "she's an idiot" or "wasn't that stupid of her", but they might say "And to think she thought that dress was appropriate for the Governor's Ball. Bless her heart." Meaning--- she's an idiot and everyone knows it.

That's kind of what the note sounds like to me. Someone angry but they won't admit why. Someone mad for a specific reason, but doesn't want to admit that either, so they backpedal with that contradictory and weird "we respect you but not your business" comment.

It's like what we used to call a backhanded compliment, intended to appear nice, but actually a slap in the face when the full import of the words were realized.

That note says a lot about who wrote it.

Patsy's own words directed at her husband at whom she was angry???? Sounds like a woman not meeting her problems head on? Oh Jeez. Couldn't we just do their horoscopes or something. No, Tarot. I'm an excellent Tarot reader.

Are you suggesting that one or the other parent killed their child to get back at the other? It can happen, if the perp is sociopathic. Neither Ramsey parent fits sociopathic profile, do they? Did she? Mrs. Ramsey is dead. Could you offer evidence to back up your opinion?

MyrDawn

10-19-2006, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

I'd really like to see her come up with something that proves that no fibers connecting the Rs to the murder were ever found and that Levin is lying about there being any...but that proof doesn't exist.

IDIs cling to this idea that Barry Levin was able to lie to the suspects during that interview...he wasn't. He's a licensed practicing attorney and not a cop, and he's bound by law not to lie. He could be disbarred for lying.

Say what you want but it doesn't change facts. He could be disbarred for lying in a court of law, or knowingly allowing a witness to lie in a court of law, but he was talking about the fibers in an interview, not a court of law. He was asking questions the police told him to ask. He could NOT be disbarred for that, and there's nothing in the attorney's code of ethics against lying in an interview.

MOO

MyrDawn

10-19-2006, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by antares

MyrDawn you are committing the unforgiveable sin of making too much sense.

Read the tabloids. Go for sensational. Quit being so dang logical.

Logic can lead to weird stuff. Edison and Einstein had problems with it as well. Cure? Read the tabloids.

LOL :beer:

I'm almost ashamed to admit I bought the book "JonBenet: The Police File" the other day. It's by the National Enquirer! I don't read the tabloids, but that book was only 30¢ at the used book store, and contains all the Ramseys interviews. I haven't started it yet, but I read a review that said at the end of the book, Patsy is blamed for JonBenet's murder due to her handwriting analysis.

Is it slanted? Ha! So slanted I'll be able to use the book for a laundry chute when I'm done reading it!

MyrDawn

10-19-2006, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by antares

Harz, North and South are more than just accents. It's a long story.....

What we're talking about here are phrases used in certain regions of the US. Some sayings are strictly regional. Others are mostly confined to certain areas, but have moved on to others. Some are universal (in the sense of being American)

For example, the phrase "y'all" has a southern origin but has loosely been adopted by northerners (especially on the internet, lol). Then there are other colloquialisms popularized through media. Such as...I don't know, I don't even watch much tv. lol.

In an earlier day and age, language differences could probably be more easily pinpointed. Media have made language more universal. No, dialects are not gone....accents, and sayings are not gone, they're just more blended now.

If you were confused before, you're probably more confused now. Sorry.

Maybe someone with better communication skills can explain.

Better communication skills? You explained it perfectly!

I've noticed even things such as certain cuts of meat go by different terms in different regions of the country, such as "minute steak" and "cube steak". They are identical cuts and preparations of beef, but depending on where you live, they are called by one or the other name, and a lot of people in that area won't have a clue what you mean if you call it by the "wrong" name. And, ask for a "Pork Tenderloin sandwich" in a restaurant here in Texas, and the waitress will look at you like your nuts. Ask for one in Iowa, and you'll get one of the best durned sandwiches you've ever eaten!

nuisanceposter

10-19-2006, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

<snip for space>

It is nice to find we have things in common! We both are after the same goal here, after all...justice for JonBenet, no matter who her killer is. I definitely respect you for that!

Same here, I respect you as well, and everyone else here who takes the time to find an answer to the JonBenet case. Hugs all around! It's really nice to stop and talk to each other as real people and not just another poster on an MB. Thanks, Athena, that's very kind of you. Yes, I love antique shops, the more cluttered with objects the better. I always get stuck on kitchen items and toiletries - oh, and records. I bought a new record player (they still make em!) because I can't let go of all my records. I just love the crackle of the needle on the vinyl. :D

MyrDawn

10-19-2006, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

Same here, I respect you as well, and everyone else here who takes the time to find an answer to the JonBenet case. Hugs all around! It's really nice to stop and talk to each other as real people and not just another poster on an MB. Thanks, Athena, that's very kind of you. Yes, I love antique shops, the more cluttered with objects the better. I always get stuck on kitchen items and toiletries - oh, and records. I bought a new record player (they still make em!) because I can't let go of all my records. I just love the crackle of the needle on the vinyl. :D

Ohhh, I love antique kitchen items, and sewing items, and majolica. The antique "malls" are great for those. Hundreds of dealers booths all under one huge roof!

Ames

10-19-2006, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by humanpolygraph

Your right! hahaah John looks like BO and patsy looks like tammy fay heheheheahhaha thats not nice im sorry god, but its true. i just started reading your thread...im liking it allready rothf!

HA HA...yeah, I should have refrained from the Tammy Faye comment...that really wasn't nice of me. But, its true...its one of the first things that I noticed. Her face looked like a mask...it was about three shades darker than her neck, and you could see her makeup line. I am sorry all you IDI believers..but, that IS what I thought. And I don't even know why it struck me as odd...I guess because if my child had died..the last thing on my mind would be my makeup, and she had on enough for three or four women. Her makeup and the fact that John showed NO emotion whatsoever, he didn't even look upset to me.....was two things that I thought was weird. IMO

Ames

10-19-2006, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by humanpolygraph

I have to disagree with you both on this one, IMO (have to make sure i say that lol or some of you will freak) I tend to agree that not everyone cries or shows emotion some of the time, but to never show emotion is what makes me wonder. My theory is that it is the "collective" behavior that matters. When I studied Psychology we were taught that your personal beliefs propogate your behavior and vice versa, and that behavior is a key element to what is going on in your enviornment. To never show emotion of an outwardly display or to continuously never show behaviors that are consistant with someone who has lost someone so dear to them only leads one to think that this is not the case with these people. If every behavior shown is odd then obviously something is not right, but then again, who is telling us that the behavior is odd, the police? are they lieing? we dont know. I am about to read some more books as was suggested to me by athena and try to see what "behaviors" are truly the ones that were shown that day in question. But to say that behavior does not matter is simply untrue.

Great post. I have been asked before, if I have studied Psychology...because some posters feel that I haven't ( since they KNOW me and everything about me...LOL), and that I shouldn't base my opinions on the way that someone acts. Well, NO ...I have never studied psychology before, but my husband has, AND my cousin is a Psychologist.....SO THERE...thats how I get my info, and what my opinions are based on. IMO

Ames

10-19-2006, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by antares
West Virginia is considered a southern state.

Yes it is..

Ames

10-19-2006, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by antares

Bless your heart, Ames. Northerners say it too, and for the same purposes. That phrase isn't regional.

Bless your heart, lol.

Really? Well, bless your heart too... I have been in alot of northern states...and I now have lived in one for Five years, and I have NEVER heard that phrase used by northern folk. IMO

Coloradokares

10-19-2006, 01:36 PM

I apologize for not being able to provide a link. Because what I will post is my own thoughts. The significance of a scarf actually started when his other daughter was killed. She had given JR a red and black scarf as a gift before her death. John loved it. Apparently John gave red scarfs out as gifts in 96. He placed one in the casket with JonBenet. my thought is this. It is quite possible that JonBenet was strangled before the garrote was in place. I can't help but speculate on what that all might suggest. Wouldn't that be a HORROR if ......?

Originally posted by Ames

Exactly! When my cousin was murdered by her husband, he was convicted and thrown in prison. At the trial and the whole time that he was in jail, he tried to say that she had committed suicide..even though the evidence (including the fact that he had wrapped the gun in a towel to muffle the shot...(it was in a hotel room), and that the gun was found on her left side, and she was right handed...and her left hand was broken), said otherwise. The judge agreed with the evidence and sent him away, he wanted the body exhumed, and her parents were going to agree to it, but he was let out on parole. He served only ten years...they had a one year old and a two year old daughter. MY POINT IS...her parents are Christian's too...and had no problem with her body being exhumed...because it is only a shell...the spirit that made her who she was ....was in heaven. And, they knew that the 2nd autopsy would have only proven that he was a liar, and they had no problem with her body being exhumed...because they knew the truth. The Ramsey's knew the truth too...thats why they didn't want JB's body exhumed. Her body was just a shell....that was NOT JB in that grave...JB is in heaven....and sadly...I do not think that her mother is with her. Why wouldn't a parent do everything in their power, to see that justice is brought to their child's killer? Why not agree to an a 2nd autopsy that MAY shed some light on alot of things, that was missed the first time. The scarf? Why the h-ll would he put a scarf into the casket???? Now thats just weird....what attachment could she have possibly had to that stupid thing? She was SIX...not sixty. Something is rotten in Denmark....IMO

Ames

10-19-2006, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by humanpolygraph

That is odd! Why would he bury a scarf with her, it wasnt like it was her favorite teddy bear, butthat makes since, especially if that was the murder weapon, no one would ever find it now.

Yeah, it is VERY odd. She was SIX...if I bought a scarf for my five year old OR 15 year old...they would laugh me out the door. LOL And then, it would get "lost", so that they would never have to wear it. If JB's body had of been exhumed...(if the Ramsey's had of consented to it), and a 2nd autopsy had of been performed, alot of our questions would be answered. I wonder if her body was exhumed tomorrow...if there would be anything left of it, to retest...or if the scarf would be too decayed. IMO

harz

10-19-2006, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Ames

Great post. I have been asked before, if I have studied Psychology...because some posters feel that I haven't ( since they KNOW me and everything about me...LOL), and that I shouldn't base my opinions on the way that someone acts. Well, NO ...I have never studied psychology before, but my husband has, AND my cousin is a Psychologist.....SO THERE...thats how I get my info, and what my opinions are based on. IMO

About America’s custom on free speech, would we expect the psychologists refuse to discuss about JR’s defensive behaviors publicly. Would they get into trouble if they do, as facing civil actions, or losing their jobs and licenses that JR’s attorneys would eat them alive unless JR confessed or indicted?

MyrDawn

10-19-2006, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Ames

Really? Well, bless your heart too... I have been in alot of northern states...and I now have lived in one for Five years, and I have NEVER heard that phrase used by northern folk. IMO

I have. My aunt, who was born in Illinois, and lived all her life there and in Iowa, used to say it a lot. I also heard other people say it when I lived in Iowa, although I admit, it was older people, close to my aunt's generation.

Louisadelmar

10-19-2006, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by harz

True, many or all of us here on forum are curious onlookers, but Burke was lawyered up by his dad when he turned into 18 sametime BPD want Burke for questionings, not because BPD were curious, they want this case to be solved. I believe Burke doesn't want to share anything because he or his family doesn't want the public to learn the truth, but that's my opinion.

You do know BPD is no longer handling this case? They turned it over to the DA's office some time ago.

bullmoose

10-19-2006, 04:46 PM

Even the BPD, after interviewing Burke on acouple of occasions with a child psychologist watching through a one-eay mirror, came to the conclusion that he knew nothing of his sisters' murder. I think John Ramsey may have gotten him a lawyer to deal with the tabloid harassment he was being subjected to when he went to college. And I think maybe it scared the maggots away enough so that he can concentrate on being a college student.

Athena

10-19-2006, 08:13 PM

I still do not believe that if a 9 year old knew anything he wouldn't have slipped at least once during those interviews. Personally I believe Burke has been a victim himself over the years during this chaos. I say left him live his life. If anything he might want to do imo would be to change his name. jmo

Athena

10-19-2006, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Ames

Really? Well, bless your heart too... I have been in alot of northern states...and I now have lived in one for Five years, and I have NEVER heard that phrase used by northern folk. IMO

Born and bred in NY but use "bless your heart", bless his heart, bless her heart very often. Don't know where I picked it up but have been using those phrases for years. I remember saying "honey chile" to someone and was asked what part of the south I was from. LOL

Athena

10-19-2006, 08:43 PM

Speaking of New York:

LETS GO METS!!

Ames

10-19-2006, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Born and bred in NY but use "bless your heart", bless his heart, bless her heart very often. Don't know where I picked it up but have been using those phrases for years. I remember saying "honey chile" to someone and was asked what part of the south I was from. LOL

A New Yorker saying "Honey Chile"...now THAT is way too funny! LOL

harz

10-20-2006, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by Athena
I still do not believe that if a 9 year old knew anything he wouldn't have slipped at least once during those interviews. Personally I believe Burke has been a victim himself over the years during this chaos. I say left him live his life. If anything he might want to do imo would be to change his name. jmo

I can accept if he actually slept through the night without being aware at what happened to JB. But I cannot accept he still doesn't know anything, he is a son to John & Patsy Ramsey, he used to live with them, and I guess he do still visiting his dad at least. How much amount of time he spent with his parents since? Surely he should ask his parents questions during many nights to learn as much details to this case. I won't be surprise if he knew any critical information that hasn’t been reveal to public or he knows more than us. He is not a retard, maybe ignoramus; even people whose mild retard are more productive at asking questions to learn about what happened to their siblings. Maybe Burke wasn’t really that close to his parents, that he doesn’t really communicate or have any depth in conversations with them at all since he afraid to learn the truth before judging his own parents. JMO

harz

10-20-2006, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by Ames

Yeah, it is VERY odd. She was SIX...if I bought a scarf for my five year old OR 15 year old...they would laugh me out the door. LOL And then, it would get "lost", so that they would never have to wear it. If JB's body had of been exhumed...(if the Ramsey's had of consented to it), and a 2nd autopsy had of been performed, alot of our questions would be answered. I wonder if her body was exhumed tomorrow...if there would be anything left of it, to retest...or if the scarf would be too decayed. IMO

I guess they could be decayed by now. I watched CSI recently about investigators dug up several years old corpse and were able to collect the evidences, maybe 10 years is too long. I wonder how long her coffin will lie in ground before her coffin & tombstone will be removed to replace another corpse in new coffin? JMO

bullmoose

10-20-2006, 02:01 AM

Since the Ramseys, John, Patsy and Burke all slept through Jonbenet's murder, I don't see what illumination they could have given Burke as to what happened. You are obviously working on the premise of the Ramseys being responsible for their daughter's murder, so in your mind Burke should have been filled in on the details of their crime; as you state even a retard would ask such questions. Since the Ramseys have maintained their innocence since the day of the finding of Jonbenet, even a genius would not get the details of their crime if they didn't do it, harz. DEEDEEDEE!!!!!!

harz

10-20-2006, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by Louisadelmar

You do know BPD is no longer handling this case? They turned it over to the DA's office some time ago.

I didn't know that. I watched a show after Larry King hour with Karr, they said this case is still under investigation or there are investigators going through this case today. I wasn't sure who they are, do you know? Is this case still under Boulder DA? I thought it was good news that they still haven't give up after Karr. I wonder how long those investigators, if they are new people, have been investigating on this case?

harz

10-20-2006, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by bullmoose
Since the Ramseys, John, Patsy and Burke all slept through Jonbenet's murder, I don't see what illumination they could have given Burke as to what happened. You are obviously working on the premise of the Ramseys being responsible for their daughter's murder, so in your mind Burke should have been filled in on the details of their crime; as you state even a retard would ask such questions. Since the Ramseys have maintained their innocence since the day of the finding of Jonbenet, even a genius would not get the details of their crime if they didn't do it, harz. DEEDEEDEE!!!!!!

That’s your perspective in believing Ramseys are innocent. This thread is about inviting Burke to answer what he knows even if his parents are really innocent, like what Melinda or Beth stood up for their parents in public. It doesn’t take genius to judge his parents to determine their accountable, I am questioning if he had any motivation for his sister’s sake. OJ, Scott Peterson, and David Westerfield had maintained their innocent, so does it means they all are innocent? Aren’t we glad Amber Frey was illuminated after she saw SP on national news about his pregnant wife went missing that she went to police? Sure I am on premise of Ramseys being responsible for JB’s murder; I am not only the RDI here, nor you are not only IDI here too. big fat hairy deal. JMO

humanpolygraph

10-20-2006, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by antares
I don't think Burke owes any of us anything. I think quite a few of us are upset about what happened to the little girl. But, she was not our sister. This tragedy didn't befall our own families.

Maybe your intentions were good in writing this, but, it sounds as if you're begging Burke to satisfy your curiosity. We're all curious. Maybe Burke is even more curious than we can imagine? Whatever the case may be, he owes us nothing.

Sorry if this post sounds mean. But, this is not our life, it's his. He has probably been traumatized enough. Just let him live his life.

I thought about that after the fact and i was like well its kind of selfish so if I offended burke or anyone else Im very sorry. I guess my curiosity is killing me and staying up night after night is getting to me...ive lost sleepbut not just due to this case, ive got little ones who are up all day and when the night comes im up all night having me time, and it makes me very tired and I dont always think completely rational....again Im sorry. I just wish I had all the answers and your right all of us do, And Burke does not owe anyone anything...:-)

Ames

10-20-2006, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by harz

I guess they could be decayed by now. I watched CSI recently about investigators dug up several years old corpse and were able to collect the evidences, maybe 10 years is too long. I wonder how long her coffin will lie in ground before her coffin & tombstone will be removed to replace another corpse in new coffin? JMO

What do you mean, how long her coffin will lie in the ground before it will be removed to replace it with another corpse in new coffin? Are you saying that some dead people are removed to make room for others? I will kick somebody's butt if they remove my mom's body and tombstone, to make room for someone else. GEEZ...certainly that is NOT what you meant. Because people pay for their burial plots...that would be like going to someone house and telling them to move, because you need the space. LOL

harz

10-20-2006, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Ames

What do you mean, how long her coffin will lie in the ground before it will be removed to replace it with another corpse in new coffin? Are you saying that some dead people are removed to make room for others? I will kick somebody's butt if they remove my mom's body and tombstone, to make room for someone else. GEEZ...certainly that is NOT what you meant. Because people pay for their burial plots...that would be like going to someone house and telling them to move, because you need the space. LOL

Oh sorry I wasn't clear, sometime during my stroll with my dog at graveyards, I noticed some burial areas with 100 years old tombstones, were cleared out and repaved with new grasses over. Few weeks later, I noticed a few new tombstones of recently deceased at beginning of some rows, there still plenty spaces for more new ones. I don't know what they did with old tombstones and coffins with corpses, do they cremate them? I am not familar with burial policy, my relatives who passed away usually choose cremate. So do they have to pay regularly for a space at graveyard?

IMO

harz

10-21-2006, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by humanpolygraph

I thought about that after the fact and i was like well its kind of selfish so if I offended burke or anyone else Im very sorry. I guess my curiosity is killing me and staying up night after night is getting to me...ive lost sleepbut not just due to this case, ive got little ones who are up all day and when the night comes im up all night having me time, and it makes me very tired and I dont always think completely rational....again Im sorry. I just wish I had all the answers and your right all of us do, And Burke does not owe anyone anything...:-)

I am curious about Burke too since I think he was a witness. The questions I like to know or ask; why were Burke’s fingerprints on bowl with pineapples? Did he eat pineapples at Ramseys after Fleet and what time? Did he notice JB woke up anytime since they left from Fleet to Burke's bedtime? Did he notice heart or V drawing from red ink on her palm anytime before he went to bed? I am sure we have many questions if he would be willing to answer. Since he's over 18 yrs old now, why not release transcripts of his questioning with psychologist, police, or Grand Jury? I thought it would be a lot easier to confess his experiences or knowledge publicly from his own words whether Ramseys are innocent or not to help dissolving the suspicions. JMO

Coloradokares

10-21-2006, 12:16 AM

Yes it is under the Bounder County District Attorneys jurisdiction. It would be a better thing for our esteemed Governor to appoint an Office of Special Prosecutor. But that is my humble opinion

Originally posted by harz

I didn't know that. I watched a show after Larry King hour with Karr, they said this case is still under investigation or there are investigators going through this case today. I wasn't sure who they are, do you know? Is this case still under Boulder DA? I thought it was good news that they still haven't give up after Karr. I wonder how long those investigators, if they are new people, have been investigating on this case?

Coloradokares

10-21-2006, 12:19 AM

Harz I believe you made an inadvertent error. Beth was dead when JonBenet died. She was killed in an Automobile accident.[

QUOTE]Originally posted by harz

That’s your perspective in believing Ramseys are innocent. This thread is about inviting Burke to answer what he knows even if his parents are really innocent, like what Melinda or Beth stood up for their parents in public. It doesn’t take genius to judge his parents to determine their accountable, I am questioning if he had any motivation for his sister’s sake. OJ, Scott Peterson, and David Westerfield had maintained their innocent, so does it means they all are innocent? Aren’t we glad Amber Frey was illuminated after she saw SP on national news about his pregnant wife went missing that she went to police? Sure I am on premise of Ramseys being responsible for JB’s murder; I am not only the RDI here, nor you are not only IDI here too. big fat hairy deal. JMO [/QUOTE]

harz

10-21-2006, 12:27 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coloradokares
[B]Harz I believe you made an inadvertent error. Beth was dead when JonBenet died. She was killed in an Automobile accident.[

QUOTE]Originally posted by harz
[B]

Then it must be Melinda, she made a statement about her parents or her dad specifically. I wasn't sure which one. At least to clear up the confusions, thanks. :)

Thinking

10-21-2006, 12:42 AM

Black socks proves guilt. They all wear black socks.

docg

10-21-2006, 12:54 AM

I find it remarkable that Burke has never once spoken publicly about this case, one way or another. Unlike other members of the family he has never publicly defended his parents. I wonder if he might actually to this day harbor some suspicions regarding their involvement. He has certainly never denied that.

When questioned regarding Burke, John and Patsy claimed they NEVER discussed the case with him at all, ever. Which seems very strange.

I wonder if Burke may have been awake at least part of that night and heard something that maybe he'd prefer to forget.

Ames

10-21-2006, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by harz

Oh sorry I wasn't clear, sometime during my stroll with my dog at graveyards, I noticed some burial areas with 100 years old tombstones, were cleared out and repaved with new grasses over. Few weeks later, I noticed a few new tombstones of recently deceased at beginning of some rows, there still plenty spaces for more new ones. I don't know what they did with old tombstones and coffins with corpses, do they cremate them? I am not familar with burial policy, my relatives who passed away usually choose cremate. So do they have to pay regularly for a space at graveyard?

IMO

Thats against the law to dig up dead people, and replace them with "newer" dead people. Unless the family ok'd it or something...but, if the ones that you saw were over 100 years old, I highly doubt that they have any close relatives living. No, you just buy a burial plot...its like 2,000 dollars or something like that. Some people buy family plots, that way everyone in the family can be buried beside of each other. Like my mom and dad bought a burial plot beside of each other...they have one big tombstone...her name, birthdate, and date of her death, is on one side...and the other already has my dad's name (he is still living...and its kind of eerie) and his date of birth only, since he isn't dead yet. ANYWAY...yes...you buy burial plots...and I would seriously hurt someone if they moved my moms body or so much as touched her tombstone. IMO

Ames

10-21-2006, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Thinking
Black socks proves guilt. They all wear black socks.

LOL...I will have to check out JR socks on his past interviews...

Athena

10-21-2006, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by humanpolygraph

I have to disagree with you both on this one, IMO (have to make sure i say that lol or some of you will freak) I tend to agree that not everyone cries or shows emotion some of the time, but to never show emotion is what makes me wonder. My theory is that it is the "collective" behavior that matters. When I studied Psychology we were taught that your personal beliefs propogate your behavior and vice versa, and that behavior is a key element to what is going on in your enviornment. To never show emotion of an outwardly display or to continuously never show behaviors that are consistant with someone who has lost someone so dear to them only leads one to think that this is not the case with these people. If every behavior shown is odd then obviously something is not right, but then again, who is telling us that the behavior is odd, the police? are they lieing? we dont know. I am about to read some more books as was suggested to me by athena and try to see what "behaviors" are truly the ones that were shown that day in question. But to say that behavior does not matter is simply untrue.

When you read a couple of the books you will see another side of JR. Notice the topic of this thread is "John Ramsey never crying in interviews". Many people do not display their emotions in public, especially men. And just because he did not cry in front of the cameras doesn't mean he never showed emotion as your post suggests. You CANNOT judge someone's behavior in times of grief. Everyone is different and there is no manual on how someone should grieve. jmo

Athena

10-21-2006, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by Ames

Great post. I have been asked before, if I have studied Psychology...because some posters feel that I haven't ( since they KNOW me and everything about me...LOL), and that I shouldn't base my opinions on the way that someone acts. Well, NO ...I have never studied psychology before, but my husband has, AND my cousin is a Psychologist.....SO THERE...thats how I get my info, and what my opinions are based on. IMO

LOL -- Sorry but there is no manual on how someone should grieve and no medical textbook can teach you that. And especially studying psychology as you say -- then you should know that; and I broke my own rule. jmo

MyrDawn

10-21-2006, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by Athena

LOL -- Sorry but there is no manual on how someone should grieve and no medical textbook can teach you that. And especially studying psychology as you say -- then you should know that; and I broke my own rule. jmo

When Big Boys don't cry:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art27610.asp

snip..."You will find many grieving families in which only the wife and children are crying, and worried because Dad isn't crying. Yet if he does, they get upset. Although a wife may be relieved that her partner is able to grieve, she may fear that his tears somehow lessen him as the stalwart of strength she holds him to be. Thus, men are criticised when they don't grieve, and their masculinity is questioned when they do. Men have been taught to hide their tears, and to replace their sadness with anger. Women have been shamed out of their anger and use the strength of tears in grief, men must learn to use their strength of anger to move into their tears."

Ames

10-21-2006, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Athena

LOL -- Sorry but there is no manual on how someone should grieve and no medical textbook can teach you that. And especially studying psychology as you say -- then you should know that; and I broke my own rule. jmo

First of all, I had to name this thread something that wouldn't be either deleted or merged, because every other single thread that I have started..one with recent pictures of Burke...that actually got alot of views and replies, has been either deleted or merged. I had to come up with something that I thought would not be deleted. ANYWAY...its not just about JR not crying...he showed absolutely NO emotion whatsoever in his televised interviews....I am sorry...but, I find that a bit odd. IMO

Louisadelmar

10-21-2006, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Ames

First of all, I had to name this thread something that wouldn't be either deleted or merged, because every other single thread that I have started..one with recent pictures of Burke...that actually got alot of views and replies, has been either deleted or merged. I had to come up with something that I thought would not be deleted. ANYWAY...its not just about JR not crying...he showed absolutely NO emotion whatsoever in his televised interviews....I am sorry...but, I find that a bit odd. IMO

From everything I have read John Ramsey has always been a reserved, quiet person. I think part of his fascination with Patsy was her gregariousness. We know as far back as when he worked for AT&T he was seen as having trouble communicating because he was so quiet. His behavior seems totally congruent with how he was known to behave.

LadyFisher

10-21-2006, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

Same here, I respect you as well, and everyone else here who takes the time to find an answer to the JonBenet case. Hugs all around! It's really nice to stop and talk to each other as real people and not just another poster on an MB. Thanks, Athena, that's very kind of you. Yes, I love antique shops, the more cluttered with objects the better. I always get stuck on kitchen items and toiletries - oh, and records. I bought a new record player (they still make em!) because I can't let go of all my records. I just love the crackle of the needle on the vinyl. :D O/T I have the clutter, too..but imo it makes a home feel so comfy.....I have an old Victrola and a Daisy butter churn my dad gave me.......I have so many stories I could tell you about my "junkin" trips and finds...but will save them for another time! :seeya:

Louisadelmar

10-21-2006, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by docg
[...]
When questioned regarding Burke, John and Patsy claimed they NEVER discussed the case with him at all, ever. Which seems very strange.
[...]

Do you have that quote?

Louisadelmar

10-21-2006, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Louisadelmar

Do you have that quote?

Never mind. Found it in the 2001 interview

12 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Just simply, I am
13 going to hand you another copy, and I've
14 highlighted just statements that The National
15 Enquirer claimed you made just simply for the
16 purposes of asking you whether or not you made
17 that statement. I am not going to go beyond
18 that. I just want to see if the Enquirer
19 quotes are, in fact, accurate where you are
20 quoted.
21 If you will, look at the bottom of
22 the first page. You will see they, quote, have
23 you say, "He has never -- we have never talked
24 about anything."
25 Is that an accurate quote?
Page 114
1 A. Who is the "he" they are talking
2 about?
3 Q. Burke. I will read the paragraph
4 before.
5 The Ramseys were asked whether Burke,
6 now 14, ever asked for details of JonBenet's
7 death. Quote, He has never -- we have never
8 talked about anything, said Patsy, who wore a
9 purple suit and a white blouse.
10 MR. WOOD: What is the question?
11 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) The question is,
12 did you, in fact, say that, "He has never -- we
13 have never talked about anything"?
14 MR. LIN: In that context?
15 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Is this quote
16 accurate?
17 MR. WOOD: They may have spoken to
18 her in an interview and taken bits and pieces out
19 of context. I don't know --
20 Q. (By Mr. Hoffman) Is --
21 A. I don't remember whether I said that
22 in conjunction with having talked to Burke or
23 not.
24 Q. Substantively, is that accurate? Have
25 you ever talked to Burke about anything regarding
Page 115
1 the JonBenet murder as they have stated here? I
2 want to determine if that is accurate.
3 A. Yes, we talked about some things.
4 Q. So is the substance of that quote
5 accurate or inaccurate?
6 A. Well, I may have said that, but it
7 may not have been about talking to Burke or not.
8 I don't -- I would have to see -- they take
9 things out of context a lot.
10 Q. I just want to know what it is that
11 they are taking out of context here. So again,
12 I don't mean to belabor this. Did you or did
13 you not, in substance, say that you never talked
14 to Burke about anything to The National Enquirer?
15 A. I don't remember saying that.

Athena

10-21-2006, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Ames

First of all, I had to name this thread something that wouldn't be either deleted or merged, because every other single thread that I have started..one with recent pictures of Burke...that actually got alot of views and replies, has been either deleted or merged. I had to come up with something that I thought would not be deleted. ANYWAY...its not just about JR not crying...he showed absolutely NO emotion whatsoever in his televised interviews....I am sorry...but, I find that a bit odd. IMO

Do the men in your life cry???

Mine don't - maybe that's the difference in you finding it odd and me finding it very normal which is why the way people grieve is personal. :shrug: jmo

Ames

10-21-2006, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Do the men in your life cry???

Mine don't - maybe that's the difference in you finding it odd and me finding it very normal which is why the way people grieve is personal. :shrug: jmo

Yes, they do...especially my husband, like when both of my daughter's were born...and when my mom died, and when my 15 year old had surgery for scoliosis. I have no doubt that he would cry if one of our daughters were murdered, and wouldn't sit there stonefaced during the televised interviews, but then again...thats just him. IMO

thewhitewitch1

10-21-2006, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by antares

MyrDawn you are committing the unforgiveable sin of making too much sense.

Read the tabloids. Go for sensational. Quit being so dang logical.

Logic can lead to weird stuff. Edison and Einstein had problems with it as well. Cure? Read the tabloids.

I don't read tabloids as a rule and I rarely believe anything they say if I do happen to read one but you must admit, for all of their disdain for them, the Rameys DID do an interview with the National Enquirer.
They don't always write made-up crap (at least not the Enquirer). Back when I was pregnant many moons ago, I first read in the Enquirer that the drug I was prescribed for horrible non-stop morning sickness caused birth defects. I took it with enough seriousness to stop taking the medication and about a month later, the same report came out in the national news.
You just have to have common sense when you read from a source like that. IMO

MyrDawn

10-21-2006, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1

I don't read tabloids as a rule and I rarely believe anything they say if I do happen to read one but you must admit, for all of their disdain for them, the Rameys DID do an interview with the National Enquirer.
They don't always write made-up crap (at least not the Enquirer). Back when I was pregnant many moons ago, I first read in the Enquirer that the drug I was prescribed for horrible non-stop morning sickness caused birth defects. I took it with enough seriousness to stop taking the medication and about a month later, the same report came out in the national news.
You just have to have common sense when you read from a source like that. IMO

Believe it or not, TWW, I agree with your whole post about this!

thewhitewitch1

10-21-2006, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by MyrDawn

Believe it or not, TWW, I agree with your whole post about this!

Thanks, Myrdawn...I believe you. :)

As far as husbands crying....I have only seen my husband cry a handful of times. Sometimes he was drunk, though so I don't count those. ;)
Most notably was when our dog was put to sleep.
When his mother passed away, I had to relay the message to him. He was asleep so I had to wake him up. His reaction? He rolled over and went back to sleep! :shrug: Course, that was during his full blown alcoholic days but still....I was dumbfounded.

Ames

10-21-2006, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1

Thanks, Myrdawn...I believe you. :)

As far as husbands crying....I have only seen my husband cry a handful of times. Sometimes he was drunk, though so I don't count those. ;)
Most notably was when our dog was put to sleep.
When his mother passed away, I had to relay the message to him. He was asleep so I had to wake him up. His reaction? He rolled over and went back to sleep! :shrug: Course, that was during his full blown alcoholic days but still....I was dumbfounded.

Well, if he was a full blown alcoholic in those days, that explains why he rolled over and went back to sleep. My brother cried when my mom died (HE was 30 at the time), and my dad cries almost everytime I call him, he is 82 and lives 2,200 miles away. John Ramsey wasn't drunk (at least I don't think he was) during his interviews...wonder what HIS excuse is. And I am NOT just talking about not crying here...I am talking about the whole not being emotional thing. He didn't even look upset to me...Patsy on the other hand, was crying. Maybe there is nothing to it, but I just thought that there should have been as LEAST SOME emotion there, and there wasn't. IMO

sweetcharlotte

10-21-2006, 06:03 PM

It has been almost a week since you started this thread. Is it really that difficult to understand that not all people act/react the same way? Just curious.

Ames

10-21-2006, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte
It has been almost a week since you started this thread. Is it really that difficult to understand that not all people act/react the same way? Just curious.

LOL..not really. Its just that his lack of emotion, along with all of the other weird stuff...the three page ransom letter, etc...just makes him look more guilty. And I am not the only person replying to my own thread, and apparently have people that agree with me. Not trying to be mean, I promise....BUT..if you don't like my thread, don't click on it. IMO

sweetcharlotte

10-21-2006, 06:30 PM

By all means, carry on. :seeya:

Ames

10-21-2006, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte
By all means, carry on. :seeya:

:lol: LOL...thanks!

Ames

10-21-2006, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by docg
I find it remarkable that Burke has never once spoken publicly about this case, one way or another. Unlike other members of the family he has never publicly defended his parents. I wonder if he might actually to this day harbor some suspicions regarding their involvement. He has certainly never denied that.

When questioned regarding Burke, John and Patsy claimed they NEVER discussed the case with him at all, ever. Which seems very strange.

I wonder if Burke may have been awake at least part of that night and heard something that maybe he'd prefer to forget.

I wonder that too...and I wonder if he has anything to do with his dad, now?

Ames

10-21-2006, 06:45 PM

Athena

10-21-2006, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Ames

I wonder that too...and I wonder if he has anything to do with his dad, now?

Ames he was just with his dad the beginning of the school year when the Karr story broke. ???

Ames

10-21-2006, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Ames he was just with his dad the beginning of the school year when the Karr story broke. ???

Thanks, I was just wondering about that..I didn't know for sure.

humanpolygraph

10-21-2006, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Ames

There is no need to apologize...I personally do not see anything wrong with the letter to Burke, and I agree with you...IF he knows something..he needs to come forward. IMO

Im not sure if it is the RIGHT thing to do, but in this case who knows whats right or wrong. I just dont want to hurt Burke in anyway by trying to get him to come forward, hes still a kid and Im sure this is a very fragile part of his life, and he might not be ready to talk, I just wanted to open the door for him so to speak and give him the idea of posting anonymously, but then again, if he did how would we know it was him??? lol.

humanpolygraph

10-21-2006, 11:20 PM

IMO I believe that he slept through the night but then again, he did tell one interviewer that he heard something like rustling around or moving around during the night. He heard her scream but didnt get up because he thought maybe she was having a bad dream or he really slept through the night, after all it was a busy day for him, and woke up to much confusion (hence the enhanced 911 tape) and he told one interviewer that jon benet had walked in front of her mom into the house, maybe he knows somethings not right, but feels that he cant do anything about that now anyway. Many time when Ive read about cases (in psych class) with sons and fathers the son will always protect the father because that is the man he looks up to no matter what. I know Im prob going to sound like Freud for a minute, but sons want to make their fathers proud and strive to be like them even if unconsciously or consciously they know they are doing wrong. I remember reading about how a certain father abused his son repeatedly and the son swore to the psychologist that his father was the greatest man alive..the son was in complete DENIAL that his father was anything but good. It this father/son bond that keeps them from coming to terms with the truth, it hurts them too much to go against that. So Burke may never talk, asuming he thinks something is up anyway..

I just find all the mixed stories confusing and would like him to shed some light on what really happened. I do not wan t to do that at the expense of his emotional well being though, and that is why I stated that I appologized previously.

edna mode

10-22-2006, 11:23 PM

Whoever started this thread should be ashamed.

Leave the kid alone. He lost two sisters, his mother and has dealt with this kind of crap for most of his life.

He's still mourning his mom and starting college. Let the child live his life. If authorities want to talk to him about anything...GREAT...but, no one here should go near him.

He was fully cleared years ago.

Have a little respect.

Deepwater

10-22-2006, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by edna mode
Whoever started this thread should be ashamed.

Leave the kid alone. He lost two sisters, his mother and has dealt with this kind of crap for most of his life.

He's still mourning his mom and starting college. Let the child live his life. If authorities want to talk to him about anything...GREAT...but, no one here should go near him.

He was fully cleared years ago.

Have a little respect.

Hi Edna,

I know your posts from the flu boards. I fully agree with you. Let the poor guy alone.

edna mode

10-23-2006, 12:23 AM

What are the flu boards? Not sure thats me...but, appreciate your thoughts here.

Athena

10-23-2006, 09:23 PM

Ames -- Maybe this will make you feel better. Since I believe the one way shows grief is very personal I did not realize there were many references to JR actually expressing emotion in PMPT. Here's one of them (don't feel like typing them all)

p84 PMPT

Throughout the service, John stroked Patsy's back as they sat in the front row with Burke. Afterward, Patsy knelt and touched her face to the wooden casket. Just after noon, JonBenet was buried at the foot of a large dogwood tree in St. James Episcopal Cemetery in Marietta. John Ramsey cried, his grief as fresh as if he had just carried her lifeless body up the stairs from the basement.

Scully

10-24-2006, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Ames

A New Yorker saying "Honey Chile"...now THAT is way too funny! LOL

I live in Atlanta and it would be way funny to hear it here too! Maybe I live in a vacuum, but I think some people and their stereotypes of the south have watched waaaay too much television.

BTW, to the poster who said someone was trying to lose their Southern 'accent', LOL.

By the same token, does everyone 'up North' say, 'jew guys'? ('you guys' for all the Southern readers) I would be willing to bet they didn't.

BigDeal

10-24-2006, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by humanpolygraph
.... .. if you could post annonymously since no one would know it was you and you couldnt get in trouble from anyone, just a thought, I feel for you I really do.
Poly~

I'm trying to understand if he posted anonymously, how would you know it was him? And if you did know it was him, it wouldn't be anonymous anymore.

Ames

10-25-2006, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Scully

<snipped>
BTW, to the poster who said someone was trying to lose their Southern 'accent', LOL.

UHHH...yes...that would be ME....LOL I have tried and tried and tried to lose it...but it is staying with me apparently, until death do we part. I am originally from SC, but live in the Northwest, now...and don't get made fun of...at LEAST not to my face...but, people here think my accent is "cute". Just what I need...a Cute accent. LOL

Ames

10-25-2006, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Athena
Ames -- Maybe this will make you feel better. Since I believe the one way shows grief is very personal I did not realize there were many references to JR actually expressing emotion in PMPT. Here's one of them (don't feel like typing them all)

p84 PMPT

Throughout the service, John stroked Patsy's back as they sat in the front row with Burke. Afterward, Patsy knelt and touched her face to the wooden casket. Just after noon, JonBenet was buried at the foot of a large dogwood tree in St. James Episcopal Cemetery in Marietta. John Ramsey cried, his grief as fresh as if he had just carried her lifeless body up the stairs from the basement.

I have never seen emotion from him in any of his interviews...maybe he did cry when JB was buried....I don't know. But, it could have been from guilt....IMO. I know that we disagree on this matter. I do think that the RDI...but, that one of the parents lashed out in anger...and did NOT intentionally mean to hurt her. I do not think for one second, that they would intentionally harm their daughter...I know that there are some RDI's out there that disagree with me on that one. IMO

DolphinSpirit

10-26-2006, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by edna mode
Whoever started this thread should be ashamed.

Leave the kid alone. He lost two sisters, his mother and has dealt with this kind of crap for most of his life.

He's still mourning his mom and starting college. Let the child live his life. If authorities want to talk to him about anything...GREAT...but, no one here should go near him.

He was fully cleared years ago.

Have a little respect.
judgement and snidy opinions. What the world is all about. If we want to chat....let us do so.....