Who Killed JonBenet ?

[bullmoose]

About the only thing the Yates case has in common with the Jonbenet case is that they both occurred in North America. Oh yes, the victims were all children. Nothing else comes to mind.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by Ames


You know...I never knew until I read your and Athena's posts that Rusty was such a jerk. I guess that I didn't follow that case as closely as I should have.

I hold him just as responsible - if not more - than Andrea. JMO

[Ames]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


I hold him just as responsible - if not more - than Andrea. JMO

Yeah, I never knew that he had practically forced her into homeschooling her kids, either. I agree...it sounds like he was a real jerk, and yes, I agree...I hold him responsible too. Sounds like he literally drove her crazy. imo

[Levi]

I think she was accidentally killed. I believe it was an accidental death @ the hands of John Ramsey, & the garrote used for sexual purposes, & he accidentally asphyxiated her and then the whack to the head was after she died. If this was an outsider coming in, you don't have to stage the scene to make it look like an intruder. The Ramseys on the morning JonBenet showed up murdered in the basement, hired the most high-powered defense team & they got on a jet, & fled the scene. They didn't cooperate. JonBenet had both old & new vaginal injuries, so whoever did this had ongoing access to her. It wasn't a stranger that broke in. How could anyone be able to stay inside the house for hours & hours? Writing the novel of a ransom note & not leave any evidence behind? Absurd. It is CLEAR there was no intruder.
All of that is IMO.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by LindaA


No, Ames, she didn't just snap one day. She had a long history of mental illness and was suddenly taken off the anti-depressants she had been taking -- something you are never supposed to do. She was coerced by her husband into having and homeschooling her children, something she was just not equipped to do. I'm not trying to excuse her, but her situation was far different from the Ramsey murder and it is not fair to say she just snapped.

I'd say IMO, but I believe these facts are well documented.

Andrea Yates was another. There was one lesser known case in Colorado. 2 children I think one a baby laid out neatly in bed after drowned. I can't get the name to pop up in my head. But in Andrea's case I agree signs were there. Not so in the case from Colorado. No one saw it coming.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


I hold him just as responsible - if not more - than Andrea. JMO

Please be seated. Seated yet? I totally agree with you on the Yates murder. And he is remarried....:eek:

[Athena]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


Andrea Yates was another. There was one lesser known case in Colorado. 2 children I think one a baby laid out neatly in bed after drowned. I can't get the name to pop up in my head. But in Andrea's case I agree signs were there. Not so in the case from Colorado. No one saw it coming.

I would really like to read the other Colorado killing. Ive done an exhaustive search and can find nothing on it.

The closest I came was to a case in Planto, TX where the mother was set free due to an insanity plea based on previous psychosis.

TIA

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Athena


I would really like to read the other Colorado killing. Ive done an exhaustive search and can find nothing on it.

The closest I came was to a case in Planto, TX where the mother was set free due to an insanity plea based on previous psychosis.

TIA

Let me talk to a personal friend of mine. She will know who I am talking about. Shes out of town till after thanksgiving sometime .....but I think it was south of here. I want to say South of Pueblo... I didn't pay enough attention. I am embarassed by that. Each life is precious. I am drawing a blank. I agree with everyone on Andrea Yates.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


Let me talk to a personal friend of mine. She will know who I am talking about. Shes out of town till after thanksgiving sometime .....but I think it was south of here. I want to say South of Pueblo... I didn't pay enough attention. I am embarassed by that. Each life is precious. I am drawing a blank. I agree with everyone on Andrea Yates.

Thanks CK.

"Each life is precious". Absolutely.

With that I would like to wish all of my faceless buddies a Happy and Wonderful Thanksgiving!!!! :)

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Athena


Thanks CK.

"Each life is precious". Absolutely.

With that I would like to wish all of my faceless buddies a Happy and Wonderful Thanksgiving!!!! :)

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well Athena, and to each poster on the forum. We all have more in common than we do that separates us in that we would not be here if we did not care about JonBenet.

[bullmoose]

To Levi: You are apparently new to this board; I think you will find the discussion here, both pro- Ramsey and anti-Ramsey illuminating and thought-provoking, I know that I have. But your post the other day shows a lack of some of the basic facts;you state that the morning Jonbenet was found, the Ramseys hired a high-powered defense team, got on a jet and fled the scene.Do you actually know that your statement is false, or are you quoting from something you've read? I'm curious to know.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


We have a saying in the midwest. I suppose it is considerable less genteel than down south. Or other areas of the country. Where some would say well bless their heart we say lets just shuck the corn on down to the cob. Handwriting analysis is considered more art than science but that does not mean it cannot be a very valid investigative tool. Every individual not only has their own handwriting. But their own style of writing. When you say experts basically ruled out Patsy. Please if you could disclose who those experts were and it'd be great to know who they were hired by and from who they drew their financial compensation for their professional opinion. That would also apply to random things such as lie detector tests....other matters as well. We all know the Ramseys formed and hired PR firms lawyers in multiplicity for each member of the family and an entire entourage of professional investigators and experts in any test they were informed were being conducted. Even to the point of requesting to be present at official testings. So at least to my mind. We are all entitled to our own litmus test of how we would tend to feel about the validity of random testing of the evidence. I suppose it might be picky of me but I tend to look at the results of the official investgation vs those who had financial ties back to the team Ramsey. I realize that is my humble opinion only but it just sets better with me. Its only a personal preference limited to me.

The Ramseys only paid two of six experts. The other four experts that would have been allowed to testify during a trial were hired by the BPD:

Six experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. Four of these experts were hired by the BPD and two were hired by defendants. None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. The experts' consensus was that she "probably did not" write the Ransom Note. On a scale of one to five, with five being total elimination, Patsy scored a 4.5

Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her. Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that Patsy was not the author of the Ransom Note. The two experts hired by defendants both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Mrs. Ramsey did not write the note.

[nuisanceposter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Athena


The Ramseys only paid two of six experts. The other four experts that would have been allowed to testify during a trial were hired by the BPD:

Six experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. Four of these experts were hired by the BPD and two were hired by defendants. None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. The experts' consensus was that she "probably did not" write the Ransom Note. On a scale of one to five, with five being total elimination, Patsy scored a 4.5

Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her. Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that Patsy was not the author of the Ransom Note. The two experts hired by defendants both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Mrs. Ramsey did not write the note. [/QUOTE

Please read post #5 of this thread:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7610

Ubowski was unable to exclude Patsy, wasn't he?

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer/primer3_pro.html


Lots of people were unable to eliminate Mrs. Ramsey as author of the note even if they weren't able to prove she did write it.

Here's more discussion of Patsy as author of the RN with credentials of experts listed.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Patsy%20Ramsey%20as%20RN%20Author

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Athena


The Ramseys only paid two of six experts. The other four experts that would have been allowed to testify during a trial were hired by the BPD:

Six experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. Four of these experts were hired by the BPD and two were hired by defendants. None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. The experts' consensus was that she "probably did not" write the Ransom Note. On a scale of one to five, with five being total elimination, Patsy scored a 4.5

Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her. Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that Patsy was not the author of the Ransom Note. The two experts hired by defendants both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Mrs. Ramsey did not write the note.

Why are you not enclosing the information that is much publicized in regards to the experts that were ready to name Patsy Ramsey as the author in JonBenet if the Grand Jury indicted. Investigation into the Murder of JonBent Ramsey Author Steve Thomas? spelled out that all very concisely. What about the lie detctor tests plural.

All I can say is there is as much inconsitency in information regarding this case as inconsistencies on behalf of the Ramseys or that of Steve Thomas. This is like reading double speak rewrite of history when through the years RMN or Boulder Daily Camera would name specific sources paid for by the Ramseys, their legal council or what became known as Team Ramsey which included all the former and hired PI's ....Lie detector tests for one it took at least 3 to get past inconclusive results. They celebrated for the world to see in front of the cameras when Patsy finally got one that said she passed. It makes a lie out of all the information Colorado has read or seen on TV all these years.

All I know is this. Until someone can place the intruder there garotte and flashlight in hand. I will believe that one of the Ramseys #1. Either killed their daughter (a) out of rage or (b) to protect their own reputation and prosecution from sexual abuse. OR #2 They know who killed thier daughter and to save their own life and the life of Burke from further retailiation, knowingly assisted in the staging that occured and hiding the idenity of this evil killer. And that is a possiblity that I am willing to consider is that they had no choice but lie and hide all these years what they knew because something so sinister occured they knew Burkes death would follow next and theirs shortly after. I am thinking in order for that to have been valid they knew they would see the total extinction of every living member of their immediate and extended family. That is the only thing after 10 years of day to day living it from either 9 or 17 miles from the scene, located in that 23 square miles that separates us from the rest of reality, that makes any sense.

I believe if the Ramseys were tried in a court of law they would not be found innocent of any wrongdoing in the death of their daughter. I do not see exoneration possible from what I have heard or seen. I will not name names however I do know and have spoken with more than one who was directly or more indirectly involved in some way with the case. Names you would recognize never having set foot in Colorado. ... Including those who interviewd personally Det Linda Arndt and others as immediately involved.

I am unconvinced the Ramseys could be convicted of 1st degree murder. Possible 2nd degree. I am not even sure if that would be possible as the evidence was so staged and convoluted and contaminated I am not sure any conviction could ever be reached at all. Contaminated enough to give an inkling of doubt. The evidence that would free the Ramseys would be turned to free also an intruder with reasonable doubt.

Whats sick is Scott Petersen sits on death row convicted with less evidence than existed in the Ramsey murder. Not that he shouldn't be right where he is. What is sick about this is JonBenet died a horrible horrible death....some sick twisted @@hole did this to her. It wasn't suicide and somehow she deserved alot better than this from her parents, Boulder police in the initial hours following the 911 call from the DA's Office, from the reporters... and any Law Enforcement or Prosecutorial branch from the State of Colorado. We let that little girl down and discarded her like a broken doll. Never let it be said though that the citizens of Colorado simply did not care.

[shill]

You don't need to know anything about science to be the Weather Girl
and you don't need to know anything about criminology to report crimes on the news.
You're giving your sources more credit then they deserve CK.

[bullmoose]

CK: While I can admire your passion in desiring justice for Jonbenet; I simply do not agree with your beliefs about the case. You , of course realize that someone as biased as you could never serve on the jury of the trial you so fervantly want. Your mind is made up, you live nearby, and for years you have been hearing what I would call"the inside scoop" from certain unnamed people in the 'know'. But none of what you have heard is evidence, IMO. Scuttlebutt or streettalk is very rarely useful as evidence; 18 years ago a woman was murdered here where I live in a very horrible way; everybody knew her son did it. The scuttlebutt was she was kicking him out of the house for his use of drugs, so he thumped her on the head with a large rock the morning of her death. He was eventually brought to trial, but was acquited because of a lack of evidence[IMO very poor police work]; the point is none of the scuttlebutt was admissable in court. That's why there was never even an indictment in this case: a lack of evidence pointing to a guilty party, evidence that would stand up in court. I too would like to see the person/s responsible for Jonbenet's murder face justice; however I think that unless somebody someday matches the DNA evidence that they have, they are going to escape human justice.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


Why are you not enclosing the information that is much publicized in regards to the experts that were ready to name Patsy Ramsey as the author in JonBenet if the Grand Jury indicted. Investigation into the Murder of JonBent Ramsey Author Steve Thomas? spelled out that all very concisely. What about the lie detctor tests plural.

<snip>

If you choose to dispute what I have posted then the onus is on you to link to these so-called experts that would be called to testify in a court of a law. In order to be called as an expert they would have had to review the ORIGINAL documents. The only ones that have done so were the previous six I mentioned in my post that your post is in response to.

The only expert that Thomas refers to Don Foster was totally discredited PRIOR to the publication of his book yet he proceeded with it. Thomas admitted he relied on Foster's opinion but did not state he was discredited.

What about the lie detector tests?? I'd also like you to link to these multi-polygraphs that the Ramseys allegedly took. The first one they took was inconclusive and the one after said they were telling the truth.

Again I am challenging you to links. You make these statements as "facts" yet have nothing to support what your claim other than you so-called "insider" information which is just a cop-out on your part IMO. moo