Two Ramsey Questions

[MissOtisRegrets]

I realize this is old business. TIA for answers.

1. Was it ever explained why John Ramsey would (pg.13 PMPT),
during his search of the basement for JonBenet, who was at this point (just before 10am) still thought to have been kidnapped, close a broken window he found open there?

2. Two days after Thanksgiving in 1996, the housekeeper's husband and son-in-law helped her carry full-sized artificial Christmas trees that were being stored in the room in the basement where JonBenet's body was later found upstairs and set them up in the bedrooms for Christmas (pg. 81 PMPT). The housekeeper was at the Ramsey's for the Christmas party on December 23rd. Were the husband and son-in-law helping out that night, as well?. Did either of them speak to JonBenet during the party? Were they investigated and cleared by any evidence other than DNA (possibly artifact) or handwriting?

TIA

:seeya:

[darjeeling]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I realize this is old business. TIA for answers.
...
2. Two days after Thanksgiving in 1996, the housekeeper's husband and son-in-law helped her carry full-sized artificial Christmas trees that were being stored in the room in the basement where JonBenet's body was later found upstairs and set them up in the bedrooms for Christmas (pg. 81 PMPT). The housekeeper was at the Ramsey's for the Christmas party on December 23rd. Were the husband and son-in-law helping out that night, as well?. Did either of them speak to JonBenet during the party? Were they investigated and cleared by any evidence other than DNA (possibly artifact) or handwriting?

TIA

:seeya:

I've always wondered about the HK angle given how personal the crime was but she seemed to have been cleared. Not sure how extensively they interrogated the people connected to her.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by darjeeling


I've always wondered about the HK angle given how personal the crime was but she seemed to have been cleared. Not sure how extensively they interrogated the people connected to her.

Thanks for answering, darjeeling. It made me wonder, when I read that. I have many times heard the argument on TV that few would have even known of the existence of that room in the basement and that the house has such a complicated floor plan, that finding JB's room, itself, would have been difficult for an outsider. But, here we have Linda Hoffmann-Pugh's husband and son-in-law going from that particular room in the basement directly to JB's room and back again several weeks before the murder.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by Bill Board
IMO...We will never know if the Ramseys are guilty or not.

I think this killer, who imo lives alone...sits back and laughs his diabolical head off at all of us...including John and before her death, Patsy.

He left them a riddle he knew they could never solve. IMO this was a very orchestrated long thoughtout processed crime. Highly critiqued way before he went in.

IMO

Ocean

[nutmeg22]

The housekeeper's husband and son in law should have been investigated..I wonder if they were. A good connection between them and that room is established. Would either of them have had a grudge against the Ramsey's?
As to why John shut the window...if it was winter and I found a window open, I would automatically shut it. But then it might hit me that an intruder could have come in if my daughter were at that moment, missing.
Then again, as jadedblueyes says...I still have a feeling this is an acquaintance of the Ramseys that killed JB. I think he has gotten away with it and probably won't be found. JMO

[nutmeg22]

Originally posted by Bill Board
IMO...We will never know if the Ramseys are guilty or not.

I have to agree with you Bill Board...I have a feeling we will never know who killed JB. Sad.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin
Hi MissO - do you know this CTV board is open re: the Ramsey case?

http://boards.courttv.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=305

Also, I am reading Dr. Lee's book "Cracking More Cases." It mentioned that John closed the window, but doesn't say why and so far I haven't read anything about the housekeeper being at the party of the 23rd.

I remember reading something about a housekeeper and her daughter attending a Christmas party. Patsy gave the child a Christmas vest to put on, and wrote something for Santa to read to the child during the party. This could have been the housekeeper in Atlanta. I think I read that in PM/PT.

Thanks, rosy. I didn't know about that board.

Linda Hoffmann-Pugh must have been at the party on the 23rd in Boulder, because, when John Ramsey gave a roll of undeveloped film from the party to the police, he told them they might find an image of her on it. I was assuming she was there because she was working that night and wondered if her husband or son-in-law was there, too, helping out. Or if they might have picked her up afterwards. I was thinking about JB's comment that Santa had been at the party and was going to pay her a surprise visit after Christmas and that it was a secret.

Linda Hoffmann-Pugh didn't know that that room was there until after Thanksgiving. She was looking for the six full-sized artificial trees that had been delivered from the Access Graphics storage hangar and were to be set up upstairs in the five bedrooms and playroom. She couldn't find them and finally gave up looking. She and her daughter washed the windows and, then, she began looking again and discovered this room that she didn't know was there and that the six trees were in it. Her husband and son-in-law came over and helped take the trees upstairs to all the rooms, including JonBenet's, in preparation for Christmas.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by nutmeg22
The housekeeper's husband and son in law should have been investigated..I wonder if they were. A good connection between them and that room is established. Would either of them have had a grudge against the Ramsey's?
As to why John shut the window...if it was winter and I found a window open, I would automatically shut it. But then it might hit me that an intruder could have come in if my daughter were at that moment, missing.
Then again, as jadedblueyes says...I still have a feeling this is an acquaintance of the Ramseys that killed JB. I think he has gotten away with it and probably won't be found. JMO

His daughter is missing from her bed, a ransom note has been found in the house, the police are now at the house, and, while looking for any clues of his daughter's kidnapping, he finds a broken window open in the basement and closes it and returns upstairs. Odd thing to do, rather than call upstairs to the police and tell them to come downstairs immediately that he might have found something.

[kitty1182]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


His daughter is missing from her bed, a ransom note has been found in the house, the police are now at the house, and, while looking for any clues of his daughter's kidnapping, he finds a broken window open in the basement and closes it and returns upstairs. Odd thing to do, rather than call upstairs to the police and tell them to come downstairs immediately that he might have found something.

I agree!!! ;)

[Tubaleer]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


I think this killer, who imo lives alone...sits back and laughs his diabolical head off at all of us...including John and before her death, Patsy.

He left them a riddle he knew they could never solve. IMO this was a very orchestrated long thoughtout processed crime. Highly critiqued way before he went in.

IMO

Ocean

KIlling a young girl wouldn't make much sense if he wanted ransom money. You'd think he'd write a ransom note beforehand, instead of first practicing on the Ramsey's notepad, and then writing an actual ransom note. Why wouldn't he take the poor girl's body along, after she was dead? The ransom note is useless, and incriminating evidence, since they're bound ot find her body in the basement, even if he killed her after writing the note. If he was a pedophile, why would he even kill her? Just tie and gag her, and take her along.

[candykisses]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


I think this killer, who imo lives alone...sits back and laughs his diabolical head off at all of us...including John and before her death, Patsy.

He left them a riddle he knew they could never solve. IMO this was a very orchestrated long thoughtout processed crime. Highly critiqued way before he went in.

IMO

Ocean

:( Me too my friend. We might not agree on all cases, but our passion and fire are one in the same and I know your heart hurts for that family as does mine. :rose:

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks for answering, darjeeling. It made me wonder, when I read that. I have many times heard the argument on TV that few would have even known of the existence of that room in the basement and that the house has such a complicated floor plan, that finding JB's room, itself, would have been difficult for an outsider. But, here we have Linda Hoffmann-Pugh's husband and son-in-law going from that particular room in the basement directly to JB's room and back again several weeks before the murder.

And they needed money very badly. It's certainly likely that Linda or her husband, by working around the house, would have seen a pay stub lying around (the Ramsey's weren't the neatest people).

[hohum]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


Unless he knew/thought the window had been open since he broke it some months earlier. He was probably preoccupied because it was shortly before 10:00 a.m. - didn't the note say something about the kidnapper calling at 10:00.m.

I would think preoccupation would be a good guess. Plus it was not odd to John that the window was open, that was the way he remembered it after he broke in the night he locked himself out. So that would not have been a red flag to John. Though that is not to say an intruder didn't come in that way either. How easy to "break in" when the window is already broken and possibly open? :shrug:

[hohum]

Originally posted by Tubaleer


KIlling a young girl wouldn't make much sense if he wanted ransom money.

Maybe that is why the killer only put the ransom amount at $118,000, he already planned on killing JB. And he wrote the note before the murder.

[hohum]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


I think this killer, who imo lives alone...sits back and laughs his diabolical head off at all of us...including John and before her death, Patsy.

He left them a riddle he knew they could never solve. IMO this was a very orchestrated long thoughtout processed crime. Highly critiqued way before he went in.

IMO

Ocean

I think you may be right and it makes me so mad. :flamemad:

So many brilliant minds in this world and the case is still a mystery. There are clues in there somewhere that no one has connected, I'm sure of it. There is no perfect crime. I'm still hoping for justice. Fingers crossed.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Notnathanhecht
I have believed that Patsy Ramsey did this since New Years Day when she appeared on CNN. I've never waivered from that belief either.

Why?

[hohum]

Originally posted by Notnathanhecht
I have believed that Patsy Ramsey did this since New Years Day when she appeared on CNN. I've never waivered from that belief either.

Back when the tabloids plastered their covers with pure garbage about Patsy, John, and even Burke I thought maybe the parents did have something to do with it. But once I got away from those glaring headlines based on absolutely nothing but innuendo and really read the facts and separated the two, I came to believe that neither parent could have been involved in any way. There is a dreadful, sinister, evil murderer out there roaming around this very day, unless they are dead. If you haven't already and are interested, I would recommend reading Perfect Murder Perfect Town because it's as factual a book as there is and impartial too. I really didn't start reading and researching until Patsy died and then for some reason I read everything I could find.

[hoopa7p@aol.com]

Originally posted by Tubaleer


KIlling a young girl wouldn't make much sense if he wanted ransom money. You'd think he'd write a ransom note beforehand, instead of first practicing on the Ramsey's notepad, and then writing an actual ransom note. Why wouldn't he take the poor girl's body along, after she was dead? The ransom note is useless, and incriminating evidence, since they're bound ot find her body in the basement, even if he killed her after writing the note. If he was a pedophile, why would he even kill her? Just tie and gag her, and take her along.



There is one possible answer for this. The person may have written the ransom note believing that this would only be a kidnapping. I believe that the ransom note was written first. Then when the person realized he or she had killed JonBenet that person may have panicked and left in a hurry forgetting the ransom note.

[hoopa7p@aol.com]

Originally posted by hohum


Maybe that is why the killer only put the ransom amount at $118,000, he already planned on killing JB. And he wrote the note before the murder.


The ransom note is the reason I believe that the murderer has to be an acquaintance of the Ramseys -- because of that $118,000 amount.

[hohum]

Originally posted by Notnathanhecht


Thanks. I read it when it came out. Still haven't changed my mind. My opinion was not influenced by any tabloids, just by reading about the case and observing Patsy very carefully.

I can't find any motive for Patsy to have murdered JB.

Anyway I bought a National Enquirer today since there was an article included on Karr. Have you ever seen one man wear so much makeup, other than The Lady Chablais from Savannah (Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil)? There was also included a pic of him with a Cabbage Patch Doll and one of him wearing a bra. That was attractive. :D

[hohum]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com



The ransom note is the reason I believe that the murderer has to be an acquaintance of the Ramseys -- because of that $118,000 amount.

I think the murderer used the amount of $118,000 solely for the purpose of casting suspicion on the Ramsey's and away from himself. Which is exactly what happened. Using that amount was no coincidence. They needed to narrow down the list of people who could have known about that bonus of John's. I imagine the killer is still getting a hearty hah hah out of confusing the note with that amount. :cuss:

[hohum]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com




There is one possible answer for this. The person may have written the ransom note believing that this would only be a kidnapping. I believe that the ransom note was written first. Then when the person realized he or she had killed JonBenet that person may have panicked and left in a hurry forgetting the ransom note.

If the killer knew about John's bonus and that is the reason they used that amount, I think if they had really intended to kidnap for ransom rather than murder JB they would have asked for much more money, say 1 million. Knowing they planned on killing JB then it didn't really matter how much they wanted the ransom to be other than to put suspicion on the parents. JMO.

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by Notnathanhecht


Thanks. I read it when it came out. Still haven't changed my mind. My opinion was not influenced by any tabloids, just by reading about the case and observing Patsy very carefully.

Patsy was her own worst enemy. She did not come accross as sincere or genuine. Sadly, that is what convicted her. They made mistakes, or their attorneys did.

But I am 100% convinced neither had anything to do with JB's murder. A mother with cancer tortures and (violently) murders her daughter?

No :no: I dont think so.....

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I realize this is old business. TIA for answers.

1. Was it ever explained why John Ramsey would (pg.13 PMPT),
during his search of the basement for JonBenet, who was at this point (just before 10am) still thought to have been kidnapped, close a broken window he found open there?

2. Two days after Thanksgiving in 1996, the housekeeper's husband and son-in-law helped her carry full-sized artificial Christmas trees that were being stored in the room in the basement where JonBenet's body was later found upstairs and set them up in the bedrooms for Christmas (pg. 81 PMPT). The housekeeper was at the Ramsey's for the Christmas party on December 23rd. Were the husband and son-in-law helping out that night, as well?. Did either of them speak to JonBenet during the party? Were they investigated and cleared by any evidence other than DNA (possibly artifact) or handwriting?

TIA

:seeya:

2) I did not know that the housekeeper had a son-in-law. I believe her daughter was only 12? I have read (can't find a link) that both her and her husband were investigated early on and cleared. I also believe that both of them testified at the Grand Jury. jmo

1) The window --

John Ramsey interview - June 1998

5 LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a

6 little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went

8 in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.

9 We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a

10 chair that was in front of the door. Some old

11 things. I moved the chair, went into this room,

12 went back in here. This window was open, maybe

13 that far.

14 LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far

15 were

16 you? An inch?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It

18 was cracked open.

19 LOU SMIT: Which window?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one.

21 There's three windows across here, as I recall. I

22 think it was the middle one. It was that was

23 broken. There was pane class broken out of it,

24 which I attributed to breaking myself.

25 LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?

0153

1 JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there

2 was

3 a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.

4 LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was

5 positioned?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think

7 the handle was on top. It was directly under the

8 window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I

9 don't know why, but I closed it. And then --

10 LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock

11 it or close it?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little

13 latch on it.

14 LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am

16 sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I

17 think at that point I still was trying to figure

18 out how they'd get in the house.

19 LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your

20 (INAUDIBLE).

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean,

24 part of what is going on you're in such a state of

25 disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know,

0154

1 the window had been broken out. And you say hah,

2 that's it. But it was a window that I had used to

3 get into the house before. It was cracked and open

4 a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.

5 Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in

6 because that basement could get real hot in

7 winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought

8 about it, I thought it was more of an alarming

9 situation how it struck me at the time. It was

10 still sort of explainable to me that it could have

11 been left open.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

[TaraCrazyHair]

The fact that the "kidnappers" used the term "beheaded" in reference to JonBenet has always convinced me this was a fake letter and the similarities to Patsy's handwriting analysis will forever cement it in my mind that she wrote it


Kidnappers will say "your daughter will die" -- they do not threaten to behead a hostage

Unless it is the year 2005 and they are extremists in Iraq

:shrug:

[sturetroll]

Exuse me. I have not read the whole thread.

I gave away all my JonBenet books to Community Service just about a month ago. What I remember though, is that Patsy didn't recognize the underwear Jb had on the night she was killed.. anybody remember this??

Could have been something she borrowed from a friend??

DNA could come from anywhere??

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by DixieChick


Patsy was her own worst enemy. She did not come accross as sincere or genuine. Sadly, that is what convicted her. They made mistakes, or their attorneys did.

But I am 100% convinced neither had anything to do with JB's murder. A mother with cancer tortures and (violently) murders her daughter?

No :no: I dont think so.....

Accidental death due to rage (or as the term these days -- "snapped") and a huge cover up

Not that far out of the realm of posibility

Not far at all

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by sturetroll
Exuse me. I have not read the whole thread.

I gave away all my JonBenet books to Community Service just about a month ago. What I remember though, is that Patsy didn't recognize the underwear Jb had on the night she was killed.. anybody remember this??

Could have been something she borrowed from a friend??

DNA could come from anywhere??

I thought the panties were a gift from the Aunt and that was why the size was larger than she normally wore?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Maybe the ransom note was just "fun" for whoever wrote it. In addition to the below, two of the lines were from "Dirty Harry" and one was from "Speed".

from "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town", pg. 294:

On the night JonBenet was murdered, the movie "Nick of Time" aired at 7:30 pm on a Boulder cable tv channel. The story centers around an unnamed political faction that kidnaps a six-year old girl. The victim is told, "Listen to me very carefully." [snip] The ransom note begins "Listen carefully."

[sturetroll]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


I thought the panties were a gift from the Aunt and that was why the size was larger than she normally wore? Typically aunts..

[hoopa7p@aol.com]

Originally posted by Athena


2) I did not know that the housekeeper had a son-in-law. I believe her daughter was only 12? I have read (can't find a link) that both her and her husband were investigated early on and cleared. I also believe that both of them testified at the Grand Jury. jmo

1) The window --

John Ramsey interview - June 1998

5 LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a

6 little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?

7 JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went

8 in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.

9 We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a

10 chair that was in front of the door. Some old

11 things. I moved the chair, went into this room,

12 went back in here. This window was open, maybe

13 that far.

14 LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far

15 were

16 you? An inch?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It

18 was cracked open.

19 LOU SMIT: Which window?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one.

21 There's three windows across here, as I recall. I

22 think it was the middle one. It was that was

23 broken. There was pane class broken out of it,

24 which I attributed to breaking myself.

25 LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?

0153

1 JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there

2 was

3 a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.

4 LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was

5 positioned?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think

7 the handle was on top. It was directly under the

8 window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I

9 don't know why, but I closed it. And then --

10 LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock

11 it or close it?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little

13 latch on it.

14 LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am

16 sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I

17 think at that point I still was trying to figure

18 out how they'd get in the house.

19 LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your

20 (INAUDIBLE).

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean,

24 part of what is going on you're in such a state of

25 disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know,

0154

1 the window had been broken out. And you say hah,

2 that's it. But it was a window that I had used to

3 get into the house before. It was cracked and open

4 a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.

5 Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in

6 because that basement could get real hot in

7 winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought

8 about it, I thought it was more of an alarming

9 situation how it struck me at the time. It was

10 still sort of explainable to me that it could have

11 been left open.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm


Ok. I am new to this case and these questions may have been answered previously. Was the suitcase ever tested for fingerprints and footprints? Obviously the murderer may have used it to escape through the window. Also, what condition was the suitcase in when it was found? Were they any dents in the suitcase at all?

The suitcase near the window is suspicious to me. I have tried to stand on hard suitcases before and they have always fallen over. I would think that if a person had just committed a murder and was trying to leave in a hurry might use the suitcase to get through the window, but it most likely would have fallen over. I seem to remember seeing it standing upright.

Wasn't there fresh snow on the ground? If a person had used the basement window as an escape then the snow outside the window would have been disturbed quite a bit from the murderers body. Was the snow outside that basement window disturbed?

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Maybe the ransom note was just "fun" for whoever wrote it. In addition to the below, two of the lines were from "Dirty Harry" and one was from "Speed".

from "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town", pg. 294:

On the night JonBenet was murdered, the movie "Nick of Time" aired at 7:30 pm on a Boulder cable tv channel. The story centers around an unnamed political faction that kidnaps a six-year old girl. The victim is told, "Listen to me very carefully." [snip] The ransom note begins "Listen carefully."

And Patsy was a movie buff -- correct?

I swore I read that someplace

:shrug:

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


I think this killer, who imo lives alone...sits back and laughs his diabolical head off at all of us...including John and before her death, Patsy.

He left them a riddle he knew they could never solve. IMO this was a very orchestrated long thoughtout processed crime. Highly critiqued way before he went in.

IMO

Ocean

Do you know of any other instances in which a person committed this kind of unbelievably vile crime out of sheer hatred for another person(s) was actually able to be satisfied with what they had done - & leave it at that?

I can't recall any person or case like that. Even the Unabomber, who was 'dormant' for many years, could not be satisfied with the havoc he had previously wreaked. He had to start it up again.

If some intruder had so much hatred boiling up inside of him that he did this out of motivation to ruin the Ramsey parents, I just do not believe he would have forever after been satisfied. He would have contacted them again, I think. To rub it in. To gloat. To say "see, you aren't such a hot shot, such a big guy, such a wonderful family man".

And on the infinitely tiny chance that the murder & the resulting focus on the Ramsey family satisfied him, a person with that mindset would have found another person somewhere down the line who ALSO irritated them beyond reason.

Show me a case - ANY case - where another person has been so obsessed that they would murder someone close to the target of their hatred - & then not be caught, not gloat, not find a new target. IOW, after the deed is done, they don't get the satisfaction they thought they would. The hatred would still seethe, the jealousy (or whatever) would still burn.

MOO

[Athena]

Originally posted by sturetroll
Typically aunts..

Patsy bought the underwear at Bloomingdales in NY as a gift for her niece who was older than JonBenet but never gave them to her. Patsy did not put on JonBenet's underwear -- she did. They were in her underwear drawer and they said Wednesday on them and Christmas 1996 was a Wed.

[TGCJ]

...one thing is for sure, the killer didnt leave the house through the open window.
in one of the interviews that was replayed after the arrest of jmk there was a statement by john ramsey that he had to unlock a slider bolt that was on the outside of the door that jbr was in.

i had never heard this before these recent replays and that, i find to be quite curious.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Do you know of any other instances in which a person committed this kind of unbelievably vile crime out of sheer hatred for another person(s) was actually able to be satisfied with what they had done - & leave it at that?

I can't recall any person or case like that. Even the Unabomber, who was 'dormant' for many years, could not be satisfied with the havoc he had previously wreaked. He had to start it up again.

If some intruder had so much hatred boiling up inside of him that he did this out of motivation to ruin the Ramsey parents, I just do not believe he would have forever after been satisfied. He would have contacted them again, I think. To rub it in. To gloat. To say "see, you aren't such a hot shot, such a big guy, such a wonderful family man".

And on the infinitely tiny chance that the murder & the resulting focus on the Ramsey family satisfied him, a person with that mindset would have found another person somewhere down the line who ALSO irritated them beyond reason.

Show me a case - ANY case - where another person has been so obsessed that they would murder someone close to the target of their hatred - & then not be caught, not gloat, not find a new target. IOW, after the deed is done, they don't get the satisfaction they thought they would. The hatred would still seethe, the jealousy (or whatever) would still burn.

MOO

This case is not like any other case. JMHO

http://boards.courttv.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=306

[Athena]

Originally posted by Notnathanhecht


Thanks. I read it when it came out. Still haven't changed my mind. My opinion was not influenced by any tabloids, just by reading about the case and observing Patsy very carefully.

Don't get me started - LOL. Just how is one supposed to act when they are grieving? I've never read the manual. :rolleyes:

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by Athena


Patsy bought the underwear at Bloomingdales in NY as a gift for her niece who was older than JonBenet but never gave them to her. Patsy did not put on JonBenet's underwear -- she did. They were in her underwear drawer and they said Wednesday on them and Christmas 1996 was a Wed.

Thanks for clearing that up for me (A gift but not for Christmas?) .. I thought it was stated differently but this case changes with the wind over the past ten years

Another thing that always bothered me about the "ransom note" .. the non-use of JonBenet's name

Calculated move

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena


2) I did not know that the housekeeper had a son-in-law. I believe her daughter was only 12? I have read (can't find a link) that both her and her husband were investigated early on and cleared. I also believe that both of them testified at the Grand Jury. jmo



Thanks for posting that about the window, Athena. I never followed this case, except a little on TV. I thought the Ramseys did it (no footprints in the snow, etc.) but then I became a believer in the intruder theory because I didn't believe it was a cover-up. I know little about the case. Rosy has been recommending PMPT, so I ordered it when Karr was arrested and decided to learn something. It only arrived two days ago and I'm not even halfway through it, so everything is new for me.

from pg. 81:

The next day the housekeeper had her older daughter, Tina, her son-in-law, Mike, and her husband, Merv, take all the trees upstairs and place them in their proper rooms.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by TGCJ
...one thing is for sure, the killer didnt leave the house through the open window.
in one of the interviews that was replayed after the arrest of jmk there was a statement by john ramsey that he had to unlock a slider bolt that was on the outside of the door that jbr was in.

i had never heard this before these recent replays and that, i find to be quite curious.

I believe the broken window was in Burke's train room and the room in which the body was found was off the boiler room.

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks for posting that about the window, Athena. I never followed this case, except a little on TV. I thought the Ramseys did it (no footprints in the snow, etc.) but then I became a believer in the intruder theory because I didn't believe it was a cover-up. I know little about the case. Rosy has been recommending PMPT, so I ordered it when Karr was arrested and decided to learn something. It only arrived two days ago and I'm not even halfway through it, so everything is new for me.

from pg. 81:

The next day the housekeeper had her older daughter, Tina, her son-in-law, Mike, and her husband, Merv, take all the trees upstairs and place them in their proper rooms.

Thanks for letting me know that. I did not realize she had an older daughter. I knew about the 12 year old. I have been following the case but never read anything about the son-in-law.

There are so many conflicting books on this case -- don't know what to read. The only one I do know I would steer clear of is the Steve Thomas book. There are so many things in his book that have been totally discredited including the footprints in the snow. There was NO snow to make footprints in. I also understand (according to Linda Arndt's depo) that he also was a source for Schiller's book among others including the Vanity Fair article. :shrug:

Lots of info with supporting links on the JonBenet board too.

[hoopa7p@aol.com]

There is another question that has been bothering me since this case has come into the media again. In recent weeks, I saw a picture taken in JonBenet's bedroom. The picture was allegedly taken on the morning of December 26th. The bed was made.
If the picture was taken on the morning of the 26th, then who made the bed? Didn't Patsy Ramsey say that JonBenet had gone to bed as soon as they got home? Who would think of making a bed when a family member had been murdered during the night?

[Athena]

This is also a good site for the interviews. Just scroll down.

http://www.acandyrose.com/

[Athena]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com
There is another question that has been bothering me since this case has come into the media again. In recent weeks, I saw a picture taken in JonBenet's bedroom. The picture was allegedly taken on the morning of December 26th. The bed was made.
If the picture was taken on the morning of the 26th, then who made the bed? Didn't Patsy Ramsey say that JonBenet had gone to bed as soon as they got home? Who would think of making a bed when a family member had been murdered during the night?

The bed was NOT made. There were two twin beds in the room.

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by hohum


I think the murderer used the amount of $118,000 solely for the purpose of casting suspicion on the Ramsey's and away from himself. Which is exactly what happened. Using that amount was no coincidence. They needed to narrow down the list of people who could have known about that bonus of John's. I imagine the killer is still getting a hearty hah hah out of confusing the note with that amount. :cuss:
Oh... I totally agree. Another reason it was not the Ramsey's....
they would have NEVER cast suspicion upon themselves. with that $118K figure.
It was someone with a grudge against them or John. imo

[sturetroll]

Originally posted by Athena


Patsy bought the underwear at Bloomingdales in NY as a gift for her niece who was older than JonBenet but never gave them to her. Patsy did not put on JonBenet's underwear -- she did. They were in her underwear drawer and they said Wednesday on them and Christmas 1996 was a Wed. ONKY..

[TGCJ]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


I believe the broken window was in Burke's train room and the room in which the body was found was off the boiler room.

...i see. ive always heard the room where the body was referrd to as patsys art room but no matter. i still got a chill when i heard john say to detective schmitz that he had to disengae the bolt on the outside of the door to get in and discover the body, especially since schmitz did a video and explained that the suitcase below the window was probably used as a step up for the killer to get out.

if john had to unbolt the $.99 throw bolt on the door to get in, that means the killer was the one to engage the bolt when he left the room and then had to leave the house be another means....or maybe not at all.

[hoopa7p@aol.com]

Originally posted by Athena


The bed was NOT made. There were two twin beds in the room.


Thanks, Athena. I followed the case when it first happened through television reports and the newspapers. I didn't have a computer back then. Then I stopped following it until the most recent events. I have tried to catch up as much as possible recently but have missed a lot of information.

[Athena]

Originally posted by DixieChick

Oh... I totally agree. Another reason it was not the Ramsey's....
they would have NEVER cast suspicion upon themselves. with that $118K figure.
It was someone with a grudge against them or John. imo

I don't even believe the note was a "ransom" note. I believe it was more a message from someone who hated John and only the killer can decipher what it means. I agree with Ocean's comments -- the killer(s) and writer of that note are are sitting back laughing. jmo

[Athena]

Originally posted by TGCJ


...i see. ive always heard the room where the body was referrd to as patsys art room but no matter. i still got a chill when i heard john say to detective schmitz that he had to disengae the bolt on the outside of the door to get in and discover the body, especially since schmitz did a video and explained that the suitcase below the window was probably used as a step up for the killer to get out.

if john had to unbolt the $.99 throw bolt on the door to get in, that means the killer was the one to engage the bolt when he left the room and then had to leave the house be another means....or maybe not at all.

Patsy's "art room" was not in the basement. She had her art supplies carried to the basement from a room in which she used for coats, etc. during the holiday by the housekeeper.

[cinderella1008]

recently..think on Nancy Grace, she got the person she was interviewing to say that the amount 118,000 was NOT the amount of Mr. Ramsey's bonus,,, DId not give the amount he received but said that it was never said that the figure matched his bonus. That was the first and only time I ever heard anything to the contrary about the amount.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by DixieChick

Oh... I totally agree. Another reason it was not the Ramsey's....
they would have NEVER cast suspicion upon themselves. with that $118K figure.
It was someone with a grudge against them or John. imo

Or make a garrotte out of Patsy's paintbrush? Or write a note on their own pad? With their own pen? These aren't stupid people. Neither the duct tape nor the cord has ever been able to be linked to the Ramseys. They managed to dispose of the remains of those. Yet they made a garrotte out of Patsy's paintbrush to steer suspicion away from themselves!

How can the garrotte and the blow to the head be a cover-up, if those are the wounds she died from? She was alive, when she was murdered!

MOO

[TGCJ]

Originally posted by Athena


Patsy's "art room" was not in the basement. She had her art supplies carried to the basement from a room in which she used for coats, etc. during the holiday by the housekeeper.

....thats nice.
and how do you feel about john saying he had to unlock the door to get in to find the body after lou schmitz gave a demonstration on how the killer stepped up on the suitcase to get out?

[Athena]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


Accidental death due to rage (or as the term these days -- "snapped") and a huge cover up

Not that far out of the realm of posibility

Not far at all

Torturing and strangling a child with a garrote is not an accidental death and personally I do not believe the Ramseys had anything to do with JonBenet's death. jmho

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by Athena


I don't even believe the note was a "ransom" note. I believe it was more a message from someone who hated John and only the killer can decipher what it means. I agree with Ocean's comments -- the killer(s) and writer of that note are are sitting back laughing. jmo

Yes, I agree with that also. A very intelligent and sick person did this. Why? we may never know, because of the incompetent BPD.

:rose: for the Ramsey's

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by Athena


Torturing and strangling a child with a garrote is not an accidental death and personally I do not believe the Ramseys had anything to do with JonBenet's death. jmho

The torturing and strangling occurred before JonBenet was struck with great force in the head, which makes it unlikely that Patsy Ramsey snapped, as has been suggested. If that was the case, the blow to JBR's head would have come first.

IMO

[emmeblu]

Originally posted by cinderella1008
recently..think on Nancy Grace, she got the person she was interviewing to say that the amount 118,000 was NOT the amount of Mr. Ramsey's bonus,,, DId not give the amount he received but said that it was never said that the figure matched his bonus. That was the first and only time I ever heard anything to the contrary about the amount.

I heard this same thing on the Nancy Grace show. Glad someone else heard Nancy have that clarified as well. That odd amount of 118,000 has always bothered me.

IMO, I do not think we will ever know who killed little JBR.
For every argument, there is a counter-argument.

:rose:

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Or make a garrotte out of Patsy's paintbrush? Or write a note on their own pad? With their own pen? These aren't stupid people. Neither the duct tape nor the cord has ever been able to be linked to the Ramseys. They managed to dispose of the remains of those. Yet they made a garrotte out of Patsy's paintbrush to steer suspicion away from themselves!

How can the garrotte and the blow to the head be a cover-up, if those are the wounds she died from? She was alive, when she was murdered!

MOO
:beer: yes... common sense is all it takes to know it was not them.

[TGCJ]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


The torturing and strangling occurred before JonBenet was struck with great force in the head, which makes it unlikely that Patsy Ramsey snapped, as has been suggested. If that was the case, the blow to JBR's head would have come first.

IMO

...but what about burke. patsy did lie and told police that burke was asleep even though he could be heard in the background on the 911 tape. :shrug:

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Or make a garrotte out of Patsy's paintbrush? Or write a note on their own pad? With their own pen? These aren't stupid people. Neither the duct tape nor the cord has ever been able to be linked to the Ramseys. They managed to dispose of the remains of those. Yet they made a garrotte out of Patsy's paintbrush to steer suspicion away from themselves!

How can the garrotte and the blow to the head be a cover-up, if those are the wounds she died from? She was alive, when she was murdered!

MOO

Exactly MissOtis.... and this is the very "evidence" the BPD used to come to the conclusion they were the ONLY ones who could have killed JonBenet based on Steve Thomas' disproven theory of an "accidental death" and subsequent coverup. :shrug:

[Athena]

Originally posted by TGCJ


...but what about burke. patsy did lie and told police that burke was asleep even though he could be heard in the background on the 911 tape. :shrug:

I would really appreciate you reading the board if you get a chance. Burke's voice was NOT HEARD on the 911 tape and he was cleared. Another myth.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by emmeblu


I heard this same thing on the Nancy Grace show. Glad someone else heard Nancy have that clarified as well. That odd amount of 118,000 has always bothered me.

IMO, I do not think we will ever know who killed little JBR.
For every argument, there is a counter-argument.

:rose:

I've, also, heard recently on TV that the 18K wasn't his bonus, it was his "deferred payment".

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by cinderella1008
recently..think on Nancy Grace, she got the person she was interviewing to say that the amount 118,000 was NOT the amount of Mr. Ramsey's bonus,,, DId not give the amount he received but said that it was never said that the figure matched his bonus. That was the first and only time I ever heard anything to the contrary about the amount.

The $118,000 figure is correct. But... it wasn't a Bonus... that is the mistake.

That amt. was on every paycheck stub for the year.

[Athena]

Originally posted by DixieChick


The $118,000 figure is correct. But... it wasn't a Bonus... that is the mistake.

That amt. was on every paycheck for the year.

I believe it was listed on a checkstub as "deferred compensation".

[sturetroll]

Originally posted by DixieChick

:beer: yes... common sense is all it takes to know it was not them. Paint-brush, Pad, pen.. No foeign DNA.. Nothing.. Does that tell a story or what...

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena


Exactly MissOtis.... and this is the very "evidence" the BPD used to come to the conclusion they were the ONLY ones who could have killed JonBenet based on Steve Thomas' disproven theory of an "accidental death" and subsequent coverup. :shrug:

It's just outrageous what that family has been put through to save the ***** of the BPD!

[Athena]

Originally posted by sturetroll
Paint-brush, Pad, pen.. No foeign DNA.. Nothing.. Does that tell a story or what...

There WAS/IS foreign DNA.

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by sturetroll
Paint-brush, Pad, pen.. No foeign DNA.. Nothing.. Does that tell a story or what...

Foreign DNA was found beneath JonBenet's fingernails and mixed with the blood spot on her panties. The donor of that DNA was a male, and the profile didn't match any male who was tested.

[TGCJ]

Originally posted by Athena


I would really appreciate you reading the board if you get a chance. Burke's voice was NOT HEARD on the 911 tape and he was cleared. Another myth.

...ive been reading this board since the binion case so id appreciate it if you didnt assume. now if there is some undisputed proof in a thread here that says burke was not in the background of the 911 tape please point me to it.

btw, you never answered about the door being locked according to john. is that because you never read it on this board before or you dont think it means anything?

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Athena


I don't even believe the note was a "ransom" note. I believe it was more a message from someone who hated John and only the killer can decipher what it means. I agree with Ocean's comments -- the killer(s) and writer of that note are are sitting back laughing. jmo

Why would such a person be doing that? Neither John nor Patsy were ever charged with the crime. What is the satisfaction in that?

If I were to buy such a theory - that the 'real' killer & writer of the note was an intruder - then I would certainly want to see something, somewhere, any kind of a case where an individual was so hellbent on causing another family to suffer that he would do the kinds of things that we have seen in this case. Murder someone in the family, during a time when the entire family was home. Write a note to implicate the family. Do ANYTHING to implicate the family. Then go off & be satisfied, even though no one in the family was arrested or had a trial.

That whole scenario defies logic, if for no other reason than we know, by the study of human nature & people who act out of revenge, jealousy & hatred that they are NOT SATISFIED - no matter what chaos they create for others. And certainly not satisfied when what they planned to do in the first place - cause the parents to be viewed as suspects - did not pan out at all.

If "person X" hated John Ramsey so much that "X" would break into his house, snatch his daughter out of her bed, take her to the basement, smash her head in, strangle her with a garrote, write 2 ransom notes & leave them in the house, hide the corpse, escape without a trace - all with the motive to ruin John Ramsey, it would have infuriated & galled "X" to NO END to realize that neither John nor Patsy was ever arrested. To realize that they had enough money to buy attorneys for each member of the family, to pay for private investigators, to win libel suits against the tabloids, etc.

MOO

[lucielle]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com



Ok. I am new to this case and these questions may have been answered previously. Was the suitcase ever tested for fingerprints and footprints? Obviously the murderer may have used it to escape through the window. Also, what condition was the suitcase in when it was found? Were they any dents in the suitcase at all?

The suitcase near the window is suspicious to me. I have tried to stand on hard suitcases before and they have always fallen over. I would think that if a person had just committed a murder and was trying to leave in a hurry might use the suitcase to get through the window, but it most likely would have fallen over. I seem to remember seeing it standing upright.

Wasn't there fresh snow on the ground? If a person had used the basement window as an escape then the snow outside the window would have been disturbed quite a bit from the murderers body. Was the snow outside that basement window disturbed?

All of that does not matter if the room with the window was blocked by stuff. How could someone go into the room, shut the door, block the other side of the door with boxes, chairs, etc, and then climb out the window?

That window is a red herring.

[hoopa7p@aol.com]

Originally posted by DixieChick


The $118,000 figure is correct. But... it wasn't a Bonus... that is the mistake.

That amt. was on every paycheck stub for the year.


So then anyone who had access to that house could have seen any one of the pay stubs with that amount on it. Unless the Ramsey's talked about it to people outside the immediate family.

[Athena]

Originally posted by TGCJ


...ive been reading this board since the binion case so id appreciate it if you didnt assume. now if there is some undisputed proof in a thread here that says burke was not in the background of the 911 tape please point me to it.

btw, you never answered about the door being locked according to john. is that because you never read it on this board before or you dont think it means anything?

Actually you can listen to the tape yourself

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/patsy911-FFJ.mp3

The door was latched - so what? The window was not in the same room as JBR. The door was locked upon the killer's exit.

[hoopa7p@aol.com]

Originally posted by lucielle


All of that does not matter if the room with the window was blocked by stuff. How could someone go into the room, shut the door, block the other side of the door with boxes, chairs, etc, and then climb out the window?

That window is a red herring.


Was the door blocked from the outside of the room or on the inside? Did John Ramsey have to remove boxes from the front of the door to get in the room?

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


It's just outrageous what that family has been put through to save the ***** of the BPD!

Totally outrageous!!! Sad, they were not given the presumption of innocence that every person deserves.

I would believe someone in the police dept did the crime before I would believe it was either John or Patsy!

[sturetroll]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Foreign DNA was found beneath JonBenet's fingernails and mixed with the blood spot on her panties. The donor of that DNA was a male, and the profile didn't match any male who was tested. Nothing on the pad, paint-brush, garrote, nothing. nothing, but the little spot in her pants.

Does man bleed a lot during rape??How come this guy just bled a little spot? Loose pimple?,with some spit?? Just don't get it... Little or none outside DNA... Could it be an inside crime??

[Athena]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com



Was the door blocked from the outside of the room or on the inside? Did John Ramsey have to remove boxes from the front of the door to get in the room?

no no and no

http://hellhole_photos.tripod.com/windowlessroom.htm

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by sturetroll
Nothing on the pad, paint-brush, garrote, nothing. nothing, but the little spot in her pants.

Does man bleed a lot during rape??How come this guy just bled a little spot? Loose pimple?,with some spit?? Just don't get it... Little or none outside DNA... Could it be an inside crime??

There was also a palm print on the door which led to JonBenet's body, and a boot print.

[hoopa7p@aol.com]

Originally posted by Athena


Actually you can listen to the tape yourself

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/patsy911-FFJ.mp3

The door was latched - so what? The window was not in the same room as JBR. The door was locked upon the killer's exit.


But the murderer would have had to unlatch the door in order to get JonBenet in there.

[Athena]

Originally posted by sturetroll
Nothing on the pad, paint-brush, garrote, nothing. nothing, but the little spot in her pants.

Does man bleed a lot during rape??How come this guy just bled a little spot? Loose pimple?,with some spit?? Just don't get it... Little or none outside DNA... Could it be an inside crime??

Maybe he cut himself with the garrote. It was made with a broken paintbrush broken into three pieces and there are unidentified prints that were found as well. The blood did not match any of the Ramseys and the only reason they have not been cleared is because the crime happened in their house. jmho

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Why would such a person be doing that? Neither John nor Patsy were ever charged with the crime. What is the satisfaction in that?

If I were to buy such a theory - that the 'real' killer & writer of the note was an intruder - then I would certainly want to see something, somewhere, any kind of a case where an individual was so hellbent on causing another family to suffer that he would do the kinds of things that we have seen in this case. Murder someone in the family, during a time when the entire family was home. Write a note to implicate the family. Do ANYTHING to implicate the family. Then go off & be satisfied, even though no one in the family was arrested or had a trial.

That whole scenario defies logic, if for no other reason than we know, by the study of human nature & people who act out of revenge, jealousy & hatred that they are NOT SATISFIED - no matter what chaos they create for others. And certainly not satisfied when what they planned to do in the first place - cause the parents to be viewed as suspects - did not pan out at all.

If "person X" hated John Ramsey so much that "X" would break into his house, snatch his daughter out of her bed, take her to the basement, smash her head in, strangle her with a garrote, write 2 ransom notes & leave them in the house, hide the corpse, escape without a trace - all with the motive to ruin John Ramsey, it would have infuriated & galled "X" to NO END to realize that neither John nor Patsy was ever arrested. To realize that they had enough money to buy attorneys for each member of the family, to pay for private investigators, to win libel suits against the tabloids, etc.

MOO

You dont think they are thrilled how it devestated them to loose the precious JB... and how it destroyed their lives????

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com
There is another question that has been bothering me since this case has come into the media again. In recent weeks, I saw a picture taken in JonBenet's bedroom. The picture was allegedly taken on the morning of December 26th. The bed was made.
If the picture was taken on the morning of the 26th, then who made the bed? Didn't Patsy Ramsey say that JonBenet had gone to bed as soon as they got home? Who would think of making a bed when a family member had been murdered during the night?

While there were two twin beds in the room, about three feet apart, and one was made and one was not, it seems strange to me that when she was found, JB's hair was done as she usually wore it for the night.

If her hair was in ponytails, as she usually wore then at night, then it would seem she was awake for at least a little while after arriving home.

How would an intruder know how JB wore her hair at night?

I don't think one would.

Just speculation on my part, and...

JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com



But the murderer would have had to unlatch the door in order to get JonBenet in there.

He opened it -- and? I'm sorry - don't mean to come across as being short -- but this is old news to me. I actually was looking forward to the weekend break from the case but just can't help myself. LOL

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


While there were two twin beds in the room, about three feet apart, and one was made and one was not, it seems strange to me that when she was found, JB's hair was done as she usually wore it for the night.

If her hair was in ponytails, as she usually wore then at night, then it would seem she was awake for at least a little while after arriving home.

How would an intruder know how JB wore her hair at night?

I don't think one would.

Just speculation on my part, and...

JMO

I'm not understanding your point?

[Athena]

Good night all! :seeya:

[hoopa7p@aol.com]

Originally posted by Athena


He opened it -- and? I'm sorry - don't mean to come across as being short -- but this is old news to me. I actually was looking forward to the weekend break from the case but just can't help myself. LOL


Yes he did open it to get her inside. But didn't John Ramsey say he had to unlatch the door to open it? If that is true, that means that someone latched the door after JonBenet was murdered.

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by Athena
Good night all! :seeya:

Yes I'm a little tired too... think I'll have a nitecap. lol...
Goodnite Athena. :seeya:

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Why would such a person be doing that? Neither John nor Patsy were ever charged with the crime. What is the satisfaction in that?

If I were to buy such a theory - that the 'real' killer & writer of the note was an intruder - then I would certainly want to see something, somewhere, any kind of a case where an individual was so hellbent on causing another family to suffer that he would do the kinds of things that we have seen in this case. Murder someone in the family, during a time when the entire family was home. Write a note to implicate the family. Do ANYTHING to implicate the family. Then go off & be satisfied, even though no one in the family was arrested or had a trial.

That whole scenario defies logic, if for no other reason than we know, by the study of human nature & people who act out of revenge, jealousy & hatred that they are NOT SATISFIED - no matter what chaos they create for others. And certainly not satisfied when what they planned to do in the first place - cause the parents to be viewed as suspects - did not pan out at all.

If "person X" hated John Ramsey so much that "X" would break into his house, snatch his daughter out of her bed, take her to the basement, smash her head in, strangle her with a garrote, write 2 ransom notes & leave them in the house, hide the corpse, escape without a trace - all with the motive to ruin John Ramsey, it would have infuriated & galled "X" to NO END to realize that neither John nor Patsy was ever arrested. To realize that they had enough money to buy attorneys for each member of the family, to pay for private investigators, to win libel suits against the tabloids, etc.

MOO

And, if the killer was an intruder and someone known to John Ramsey, why would he leave behind his "calling card," i.e., a sample of his handwriting?

I could accept an credible intruder scenario IF I ever heard one, but I haven't.

IMO a jealous business associate or friend would not commit overkill.

IMO, this was staged to cover up something that went terribly wrong in the house.

JMO

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com



Yes he did open it to get her inside. But didn't John Ramsey say he had to unlatch the door to open it? If that is true, that means that someone latched the door after JonBenet was murdered.

YES... as he exited out the window!

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by DixieChick


Totally outrageous!!! Sad, they were not given the presumption of innocence that every person deserves.


The only place "presumption of innocence" is granted is in a court of law. IOW, at a trial.

Were either of them arrested? Did either of them go to trial?

[TGCJ]

...ok, my fault and confusion on the room with the locked door...it is seperate from the room with the window and the suitcase.

i listened to the audio tape, i wonder why patsy took the time to tell the 911 operator "it says sctb and victory" (on the note).
then i looked for a link on the 911 tape and the allegation that burke was heard on it and i found this. so, is this untrue?

BOULDER, Colo. -- Burke Ramsey was awake and asking questions as his mother phoned police to report the disappearance of his 6-year-old sister, JonBenet, officials familiar with the murder investigation said Thursday.

A digitally enhanced tape recording of Patsy Ramsey's early morning 911 call -- which includes Burke's voice, according to the officials -- appears to contradict statements by the Ramseys that Burke was asleep in bed at the time

more
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0821jonn1.html

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com



Yes he did open it to get her inside. But didn't John Ramsey say he had to unlatch the door to open it? If that is true, that means that someone latched the door after JonBenet was murdered.

Fleet White had looked in that room earlier in the day. If he had found the door latched, he may have latched it again, when he closed it. He could not find the light switch and saw nothing in the room. The room with the body and the room with the broken window are two different rooms. It would be possible for the killer to latch the door of the room the body was left in and then leave the house by the open window in the other room. (Or even by a door, as the burglar alarm wasn't on.)

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by TGCJ


i listened to the audio tape, i wonder why patsy took the time to tell the 911 operator "it says sctb and victory" (on the note).



The operator asked her if the note said who took JB. The note was signed SBTC and Victory! Patsy is answering the operator's question.

[TuscanSun]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


I think this killer, who imo lives alone...sits back and laughs his diabolical head off at all of us...including John and before her death, Patsy.

He left them a riddle he knew they could never solve. IMO this was a very orchestrated long thoughtout processed crime. Highly critiqued way before he went in.

IMO

Ocean

I think the same thing.Except I think it was someone who knows them and they have never even thought of this person doing such a thing.MOO!:read:

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by TGCJ
...ok, my fault and confusion on the room with the locked door...it is seperate from the room with the window and the suitcase.

i listened to the audio tape, i wonder why patsy took the time to tell the 911 operator "it says sctb and victory" (on the note).
then i looked for a link on the 911 tape and the allegation that burke was heard on it and i found this. so, is this untrue?

BOULDER, Colo. -- Burke Ramsey was awake and asking questions as his mother phoned police to report the disappearance of his 6-year-old sister, JonBenet, officials familiar with the murder investigation said Thursday.

A digitally enhanced tape recording of Patsy Ramsey's early morning 911 call -- which includes Burke's voice, according to the officials -- appears to contradict statements by the Ramseys that Burke was asleep in bed at the time

more
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0821jonn1.html

Yes it IS untrue.

Just what happened after Patsy hung up the phone has been debated in law enforcement circles. One former Boulder police detective, Steve Thomas, believes after Patsy hung up, the phone didn’t really disconnect.

In his book, “JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation,” Thomas claimed that by enhancing the tape you can hear John and Patsy talking to their son Burke. He claims that’s important because the Ramseys reportedly told police their son was asleep at the time of the call. If true, Thomas claims it suggests the family was altering their story right from the start.

But both the FBI and Secret Service — who examined the tapes — said such a conversation could not be heard.

NBC News had the tape tested by experts at two different labs that examine 911 tapes to see if there was any conversation after the hang up.

“I would say my findings are much more in parallel with the FBI’s findings. There’s not enough there to give any sort of conclusive, intelligible argument,” says Frank Piazza of Legal Audio in New York City.

David Mariasy from Team Audio in Toledo, Ohio, agrees. “When it was suggested that we look for these other lines of dialogue and there’s two or three other people after the hang up, that didn’t happen,” he says.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3079093/

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


Here's the layout of the house including the basement.

http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/floors.htm

Thanks so much for posting this, rosy. I can see now why the police thought it odd that the note would be left on the spiral staircase. If he wanted the Ramseys to see it first thing in the morning, you would think he would leave it on the kitchen table. But, he seems to know that they will be taking the back stairs down. He had to have gone from one staircase to the other and back, just to leave the note in the right place. It does suggest knowledge of the Ramseys' habits in the house.

[Regina.Lampert]

I know that Patsy generously pointed the finger of blame towards the housekeeper as being the person who may have written the ransom note. Ironic, since Patsy turned out to be the person LE could NEVER rule out as having written it.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert
I know that Patsy generously pointed the finger of blame towards the housekeeper as being the person who may have written the ransom note. Ironic, since Patsy turned out to be the person LE could NEVER rule out as having written it.

And they couldn't say she wrote it either. jmo

[msgatorslayer]

I have a question, maybe other's can link me in the right direction because I haven't been able to find the information that I've seen mentioned on the boards.

Was Patsy right handed? And, is there a document anywhere on the net saying that IF Patsy wrote the note, she did it with her left hand? TIA

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


The conclusion was that there was a 4.5 out of 5 possibility that she DIDN'T write the note.

How convenient huh that they just squeezed her in as "possibly" being the one who wrote it. Just that tiny .5 was enough to throw her in the pot just like they wanted, imo.

IMO

Ocean

[Athena]

Let us not forget that it was Steve Thomas, one of the lead investigators who had that tunnel vision when it came to the guilt of Patsy Ramsey. He HEAVILY RELIED on Don Foster's handwriting analysis to leak information to the media and include it in his book yet he knew BEFORE he wrote that book that Don Foster had been discredited.

"linguistics scholar who told Boulder police that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note had first offered his services to the Ramseys because of his strong belief in her innocence.

"I know that you are innocent -- know it, absolutely and unequivocally," Donald Foster wrote in a June 18, 1997, letter to Patsy Ramsey, mother of the slain 6-year-old JonBenet.

"I would stake my professional reputation on it -- indeed, my faith in humanity."

Steve Thomas, a former lead detective in the case, cites Foster's analysis as key evidence in his claim that Patsy Ramsey wrote the three-page ransom note left in the Ramsey home on Dec. 26, 1996.

Thomas details his accusations against Patsy Ramsey in his book, JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, due out today.

"I finally heard the magic words while seated in the book-lined office of Don Foster, an Elizabethan scholar and professor at Vassar College in upstate New York, who just happened to be a hell of a linguistic detective," Thomas writes.

"'Steve,' said Foster, 'I believe I am going to conclude the ransom note was the work of a single individual: Patsy Ramsey."'

But in his 1997 letter to Patsy Ramsey, Foster told her, "I believe you were an ideal mother, wise, protective, caring and truly devoted." He goes on to offer his services to help prove Patsy Ramsey's innocence"

http://rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0411rams3.shtml

Thomas also could not come up with any identification of the 73 out of 73 that were allegedly ruled out and I do wonder how many of these so-called 73 people were actually tested:

18 A. On a particular date in January of

19 1997, shortly after Dilson's information, we

20 had Mr. Wolf brought into the police

21 department in which we had a rather

22 unpleasant exchange and little or no

23 information was obtained from him at that

24 time.

25 Q. Was his conduct at that time what

71

1 you would characterize as suspicious?

2 A. Everything depends on context but

3 he was not, certainly not cooperative.

4 Q. Well, didn't you ask him to write

5 certain words that were from the ransom note

6 found in the Ramsey house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And didn't he refuse to do so?

9 A. Yes.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


How convenient huh that they just squeezed her in as "possibly" being the one who wrote it. Just that tiny .5 was enough to throw her in the pot just like they wanted, imo.

IMO

Ocean

And if you convert that scale of 1-5 to 1-100 to be clearer it would mean that there was a 90% chance she did NOT write that note.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


While there were two twin beds in the room, about three feet apart, and one was made and one was not, it seems strange to me that when she was found, JB's hair was done as she usually wore it for the night.

If her hair was in ponytails, as she usually wore then at night, then it would seem she was awake for at least a little while after arriving home.

How would an intruder know how JB wore her hair at night?

I don't think one would.

Just speculation on my part, and...

JMO

I see what you mean sunplashed.

Are you saying that JonBenet's hair was restyled AFTER she returned from the party?

IMO

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by Athena


And if you convert that scale of 1-5 to 1-100 to be clearer it would mean that there was a 90% chance she did NOT write that note.

Exactly........they just put her over in the 10% group.

ETA: and imo they did that was to cover their own A**.

IMO

Ocean:seeya:

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


I see what you mean sunplashed.

Are you saying that JonBenet's hair was restyled AFTER she returned from the party?

IMO

Yes, Hopeintown, I am. Someone, restyled it. Either Patsy, or the killer, if the killer was not Patsy. I can't see Patsy letting JB go to the White's party with the ponytail style she wore to bed or with blue hair ties when her outfit was black and white. Patsy was too much of a perfectionist in how she and JB looked to do that. But Patsy says she only took off JB's velvet jeans, etc. and put her in the long underwear. So, either Patsy was not being truthful with the police, Patsy forgot, or the killer restyled JB's hair. I can't see someone jealous of John restyling JB's hair. (I can't see someone jealous of John killing JB, though. Jealousy and premeditated murder are two very different things.)

I don't know whether JB was a heavy sleeper or a light sleeper, but I can't see her sleeping through the changed of clothes and having her hair styled for bed both. Sleepy, yes. Going right back to sleep, yes. Staying asleep, no.

JMO

I hope you're having a good holiday weekend, Hopeintown. :)

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


I never quite believed that all of the people who were "ruled out" should have been..... which takes the discussion back to the police developing tunnel vision and the feud between the DA's office and the PD. JMO

If the DNA mixed with JB's blood is, in fact, an artifact (and I realize there is no way to tell whether or not it is), then it is worthless for the investigation in terms of ruling people out. Only a match would possibly lead to the killer.

And as far as giving any concrete value to handwriting analysis, we have just heard a number of specialists tell us that they believe Karr wrote the note. :shrug:

I don't honestly see how anyone can be ruled out except by a very strong alibi.

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Yes, Hopeintown, I am. Someone, restyled it. Either Patsy, or the killer, if the killer was not Patsy. I can't see Patsy letting JB go to the White's party with the ponytail style she wore to bed or with blue hair ties when her outfit was black and white. Patsy was too much of a perfectionist in how she and JB looked to do that. But Patsy says she only took off JB's velvet jeans, etc. and put her in the long underwear. So, either Patsy was not being truthful with the police, Patsy forgot, or the killer restyled JB's hair. I can't see someone jealous of John restyling JB's hair. (I can't see someone jealous of John killing JB, though. Jealousy and premeditated murder are two very different things.)

I don't know whether JB was a heavy sleeper or a light sleeper, but I can't see her sleeping through the changed of clothes and having her hair styled for bed both. Sleepy, yes. Going right back to sleep, yes. Staying asleep, no.

JMO

I hope you're having a good holiday weekend, Hopeintown. :)

Where did you read that her hair was restyled? How do you know the hair ties weren't something that JonBenet picked out to wear. I have a daughter and that is not one of the battles I would have had with her at age 6. She picked out what she wanted to wear. I just made sure her clothes were clean. jmo

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


If the DNA mixed with JB's blood is, in fact, an artifact (and I realize there is no way to tell whether or not it is), then it is worthless for the investigation in terms of ruling people out. Only a match would possibly lead to the killer.

And as far as giving any concrete value to handwriting analysis, we have just heard a number of specialists tell us that they believe Karr wrote the note. :shrug:

I don't honestly see how anyone can be ruled out except by a very strong alibi.

Actually the DNA would exclude someone but not necessarily be inclusive because of the lack of sufficient markers. jmo

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


And if you convert that scale of 1-5 to 1-100 to be clearer it would mean that there was a 90% chance she did NOT write that note.

Athena, I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I don't even put much stock in handwriting analysis, but I think someone who scored a 4.5 would have about a 12.5% chance of writing the note. Still low, of course.

If 1 is 100%, 2 is 75%, 3 is 50%, 4 is 25% and 5 is 0%, then 4.5 would be 12.5%.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


If the DNA mixed with JB's blood is, in fact, an artifact (and I realize there is no way to tell whether or not it is), then it is worthless for the investigation in terms of ruling people out. Only a match would possibly lead to the killer.

And as far as giving any concrete value to handwriting analysis, we have just heard a number of specialists tell us that they believe Karr wrote the note. :shrug:

I don't honestly see how anyone can be ruled out except by a very strong alibi.

I agree with you. I believe the DNA is only useful if it's a match to someone outside the family who should have had no personal contact with JBR. It's totally worthless otherwise.

I don't put much stock at all in handwriting analysis, either. As you stated, Karr was ruled in by some "experts." Where the note was found, its wording, and the fact that it was written at all means more to me than the actual handwriting.

I agree with you. I don't think anyone can be ruled out except with proof that they were somewhere else at the time. I'm not convinced the Ramseys were involved, but I haven't ruled them out in my own mind. Not completely.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Sorry, duplicate post.

Apologies.

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Athena, I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I don't even put much stock in handwriting analysis, but I think someone who scored a 4.5 would have about a 12.5% chance of writing the note. Still low, of course.

If 1 is 100%, 2 is 75%, 3 is 50%, 4 is 25% and 5 is 0%, then 4.5 would be 12.5%.

JMO

I'm not the greatest mathmetician LOL but 100/5 = 20

NO; 5 = 100 4=80 3=60 2=40 1=20 0=0

4.5 = 90 (80+10)

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by sturetroll
Nothing on the pad, paint-brush, garrote, nothing. nothing, but the little spot in her pants.

Does man bleed a lot during rape??How come this guy just bled a little spot? Loose pimple?,with some spit?? Just don't get it... Little or none outside DNA... Could it be an inside crime??

I've never heard anywhere that the foreign male DNA found under JonBenet's fingernails or mixed with JonBenet's blood on her underwear was DNA from someone else's blood. Have you see somewhere that it was blood?

[hohum]

Originally posted by TGCJ
...one thing is for sure, the killer didnt leave the house through the open window.
in one of the interviews that was replayed after the arrest of jmk there was a statement by john ramsey that he had to unlock a slider bolt that was on the outside of the door that jbr was in.

i had never heard this before these recent replays and that, i find to be quite curious.

You are confused. The door to the room where JB was found had a latch not the window. :no:

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Athena, I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I don't even put much stock in handwriting analysis, but I think someone who scored a 4.5 would have about a 12.5% chance of writing the note. Still low, of course.

If 1 is 100%, 2 is 75%, 3 is 50%, 4 is 25% and 5 is 0%, then 4.5 would be 12.5%.

JMO

Is that some kind of new math? :D

A 1 in 5 chance is 20% according to the math I was taught. So, a 4.5 out of 5 would be 10%.

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by Athena


I'm not the greatest mathmetician LOL but 100/5 = 20

NO; 5 = 100 4=80 3=60 2=40 1=20 0=0

4.5 = 90 (80+10)

Whew...you learned the same math I did! I never learned Sunsplashed's kind of math. :)

[Athena]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


Is that some kind of new math? :D

A 1 in 5 chance is 20% according to the math I was taught. So, a 4.5 out of 5 would be 10%.

HA HA!!! :lol:- I also wrote it backwards considering I was trying to demonstrate the 90% of exclusion. 1 should have been 1=100 -- however either way it is either 10% chance she wrote the note or 90% chance she did not. I did know that Sunsplashed's math was incorrect. Thanks.

[hohum]

Originally posted by Athena


but this is old news to me.

So much of it is. Heavy Sigh.

[hohum]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


Is that some kind of new math? :D



LOL

[hohum]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com



Was the door blocked from the outside of the room or on the inside? Did John Ramsey have to remove boxes from the front of the door to get in the room?

I don't understand at this late date all the confusion about latches and doors and windows. All that is described in books on the case as well as many TV shows made for TV such as 48 hours. Has anyone actually read any books on this case or watched any of the TV shows?

[hohum]

Originally posted by DixieChick

Oh... I totally agree. Another reason it was not the Ramsey's....
they would have NEVER cast suspicion upon themselves. with that $118K figure.
It was someone with a grudge against them or John. imo

John and/or Patsy would not be thinking about his bonus amount if they had killed JB. Isn't that the silliest think to think they would be? I think in cases like this, so much that is really very simple is confused by trying to analyze it. I agree it was definitely someone who knew John's bonus amount and had a problem with him.

[hohum]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


I think "Perfect Murder/Perfect Town" indicates the policeman who looked around the basement in the early a.m. didn't look in that room because it was latched.

He surely did not leave her body right out in the open basement area for some reason. The killer must have taken JB to a room where he could close the door to lessen any chance of the others in the house hearing any noise. No mystery there. Looks like John and Fleet were more thorough in their search of the house than the police.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Yes, Hopeintown, I am. Someone, restyled it. Either Patsy, or the killer, if the killer was not Patsy. I can't see Patsy letting JB go to the White's party with the ponytail style she wore to bed or with blue hair ties when her outfit was black and white. Patsy was too much of a perfectionist in how she and JB looked to do that. But Patsy says she only took off JB's velvet jeans, etc. and put her in the long underwear. So, either Patsy was not being truthful with the police, Patsy forgot, or the killer restyled JB's hair. I can't see someone jealous of John restyling JB's hair. (I can't see someone jealous of John killing JB, though. Jealousy and premeditated murder are two very different things.)

I don't know whether JB was a heavy sleeper or a light sleeper, but I can't see her sleeping through the changed of clothes and having her hair styled for bed both. Sleepy, yes. Going right back to sleep, yes. Staying asleep, no.

JMO

I hope you're having a good holiday weekend, Hopeintown. :)

Thanks for your reply.

I had not heard this about JB's hairstyle before. I agree with you, If JB's oufit was black and white for the party, I can't see PR letting JB wear blue hair ties. And if her hair was fixed a different way for the party than when she was found, I think that is huge, IMO.

The story was that JB fell asleep, was carried up to her bed where JR ONLY removed her shoes and PR prepared her for bed, and JB remained asleep.

To believe the intruder theory, the intruder would have had to hide in the home, somehow get JB from her bed with her blanket, take her down the winding back stairwell, feed her pineapple, wait up to 2 to 3 hours before murdering her, and somehow restyle her hair in the usual manner in which she slept. And, this was after the intruder led or carried her down the basement stairs, past a door that led directly outside in which there was no alarm set. Then, leave a ransom note on the stairway where it was SURE to be found (how, I don't know) while JB's body was in the basement.

I believe the ransom note was written afterwards, because it was placed on those winding stairs, and if it was there before, the intruder would have had to step OVER it while he was leading (or carrying) JB down those stairs. Either that, or the intruder wrote the letter while JB was sitting in the kitchen eating pineapple.

In MY opinion, this was not an intruder.

I am having a good holiday weekend even though it is rainy here and I vowed not to be on the boards. :)

I hope your weekend is going great too.

IMO

[hohum]

Originally posted by Athena


Maybe he cut himself with the garrote. It was made with a broken paintbrush broken into three pieces and there are unidentified prints that were found as well. The blood did not match any of the Ramseys and the only reason they have not been cleared is because the crime happened in their house. jmho

An excellent point. He probably left with a splinter in his finger.

[TGCJ]

Originally posted by hohum


You are confused. The door to the room where JB was found had a latch not the window. :no:

...yes youre right, i even said i confuse the issue a couple of pages back. guess you missed my confession. :no:

so athena
was there any dna taken from the glass of tea or the spoon from the pineapple? iirc wasnt patsys fingerprint on the pineapple bowl? obviously if patsy had put the pineapple bowl in the fridge before the night of the murder her print would be on it so that doesnt tell when the print was placed there.

same for the dna found on jbrs fingernails. if john carried her in the house and put her to bed because she was asleep how can anyone know that that dna didnt come from some contact at the party.

the palm print on the door could be old too.
seems that the killer didnt even lose a strand of hair also unless its a piece of evidence that has been kept from the public while LE waits for a hit on CODIS.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena


Actually the DNA would exclude someone but not necessarily be inclusive because of the lack of sufficient markers. jmo

But if it's an artifact (and it may be, according to DA Lacy, there's no way to tell) and was not put there at the time of the killing, then the killer would pass the DNA test (unless the killer coincidentally left the artifact).

[hohum]

Originally posted by Athena


Where did you read that her hair was restyled?

They didn't, they just made it up. Nothing like a little more innuendo to confuse the story. :lol:

[hohum]

Originally posted by TGCJ


...yes youre right, i even said i confuse the issue a couple of pages back. guess you missed my confession. :no:



I did miss it, sorry for doing that. :seeya:

[Quinton04]

I was so hoping that the crime had been solved because I always felt that the Ransey's had something to do with the death. I realize everyone has different reactions to a situation, but the Ramsey's seemed to do EVERYTHING wrong. I assume they are/were intelligent people and had, at least, some idea how to treat a crime scene and yet they destroyed evidence by what they did to contaminate it.

I have always felt that children's beauty pagents is child abuse. I feel that Patsy was so involved in making JonBennet into something that she never achieved (Miss America, Miss USA, etc.) that she did not see the consequences.

[Athena]

Originally posted by TGCJ


...yes youre right, i even said i confuse the issue a couple of pages back. guess you missed my confession. :no:

so athena
was there any dna taken from the glass of tea or the spoon from the pineapple? iirc wasnt patsys fingerprint on the pineapple bowl? obviously if patsy had put the pineapple bowl in the fridge before the night of the murder her print would be on it so that doesnt tell when the print was placed there.

same for the dna found on jbrs fingernails. if john carried her in the house and put her to bed because she was asleep how can anyone know that that dna didnt come from some contact at the party.

the palm print on the door could be old too.
seems that the killer didnt even lose a strand of hair also unless its a piece of evidence that has been kept from the public while LE waits for a hit on CODIS.

Good morning TGCJ:

Yes Patsy's fingerprints were found on the bowl but as you say it could have been placed there at any time. Heck if someone took fingerprints from any of my glassware, silverware, etc. I'm sure my fingerprints would be all over them as I am the one who does the dishes and puts them away.

The DNA under the fingerprints is degraded so I think it is a moot issue. And it is very possible that there is evidence that we are unaware of. If Mary Lacy was being truthful and I have no reason to believe she was not, according to her there are tidbits that have never been released to the public and I do hope that is true. jmo

[hohum]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


I believe the ransom note was written afterwards, because it was placed on those winding stairs, and if it was there before, the intruder would have had to step OVER it while he was leading (or carrying) JB down those stairs. Either that, or the intruder wrote the letter while JB was sitting in the kitchen eating pineapple.


Are you saying you think the ransom note was written after the murder? And you think that because the note was on the steps? Where exactly do you think JB was murdered in that house?

[La_Cavalière]

The DNA found in the blood stain on JonBenet's panties could be from saliva or blood.

The palm print came from Melinda, John's older daughter, who was not in Boulder that night.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I don't put much stock at all in handwriting analysis, either. As you stated, Karr was ruled in by some "experts." Where the note was found, its wording, and the fact that it was written at all means more to me than the actual handwriting.



I agree with you completely on this.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Quinton04
I was so hoping that the crime had been solved because I always felt that the Ransey's had something to do with the death. I realize everyone has different reactions to a situation, but the Ramsey's seemed to do EVERYTHING wrong. I assume they are/were intelligent people and had, at least, some idea how to treat a crime scene and yet they destroyed evidence by what they did to contaminate it.

I have always felt that children's beauty pagents is child abuse. I feel that Patsy was so involved in making JonBennet into something that she never achieved (Miss America, Miss USA, etc.) that she did not see the consequences.

They destroyed evidence? No I think it was the failure on the BPD's part that the home was not secured.

As far as the Beauty Pageants go Patsy was raised that way. She too was in beauty pageants when she was younger so she probably did not give them a second thought. Also Patsy Ramsey had cancer although it was in remission at the time of the murder. I would believe she thought she would never see JonBenet grow up so therefore would not see her achieve Miss America, Miss USA, etc. Maybe she did it to leave JonBenet fond memories of her. Whatever the reason there is no proof whatsoever that beauty pageants had anything to do with her death. JMO

[La_Cavalière]

Originally posted by Athena
*snip* If Mary Lacy was being truthful and I have no reason to believe she was not, according to her there are tidbits that have never been released to the public and I do hope that is true. jmo

I understood Mary Lacy to say the exact opposite: there is nothing that has not already been released to the public -- meaning that it will be difficult to test any confession, because all the info on JonBenet's murder is already out there.

[Athena]

I stand corrected. Mary Lacy did say every bit of evidence has been released to the public over the past 10 years. She did however make a conflicting statement in the beginning because she also said "much" of the evidence has been released which did not indicate "all" to me. :shrug:

[Athena]

Originally posted by DixieChick


Totally outrageous!!! Sad, they were not given the presumption of innocence that every person deserves.

I would believe someone in the police dept did the crime before I would believe it was either John or Patsy!

Funny you should say that about the Police. The author of this Behavioral Analysis believes the killer may have been someone in law enforcement. Of course any analysis is speculation but it is quite fascinating:

THE OFFENDER:

The offender , and human monster, is above all an individual who has a tremendous need for excitement, recognition and attention. It is an organized offender who is skilled, pays close attention to details, and is capable of meticulously carrying out a complex plan. The offender has the need and ability to control others, and is in some position of power or authority. Being of high intelligence, this individual would be employed as a professional, and simply could not tolerate a subservient job. An ability to communicate would be present, with reasonably good social skills, but only in their role as a professional. In everyday personal relationships they would come across as a very cold, distant and insensitive person. It is not likely that they would have a spouse, or many close , personal relationships. They would be totally wrapped up in their profession , and their life would be their job in Law Enforcement. This very knowledgeable offender knows about Police procedures, and as stated in the ransom note/letter, is "familiar with Law enforcement countermeasures, and tactics". This individual has also had extensive training, and probably did some extra studying, on matters involving child abduction and molestation.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/5046/behavior.html

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by hohum


Are you saying you think the ransom note was written after the murder? And you think that because the note was on the steps? Where exactly do you think JB was murdered in that house?

Yes, It is my belief that the ransom letter was written afterwards.

I have no idea "where" the tragedy took place, but I do not believe it was in the basement.

IMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


I'm not the greatest mathmetician LOL but 100/5 = 20

NO; 5 = 100 4=80 3=60 2=40 1=20 0=0

4.5 = 90 (80+10)

Then that's a 0-5 scale, not a 1-5 scale. On a 1-5 scale something has to be zero. That would be the number one. If five is 100%, then one has to be 0%. Now, if it's a 0-5 scale, you are correct.

It really doesn't matter. Ten percent, 12.5%, there's not much difference. It's still a low probability.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Someone (I think it may have been jmgos) posted the other day that, if the DNA under JonBenet's fingernails matches the DNA mixed with her blood in her panties, and, if the DNA in her panties is an artifact, that JB, herself, may have transferred it to her panties earlier in the day. I thought that was an interesting idea.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


Thanks for your reply.

I had not heard this about JB's hairstyle before. I agree with you, If JB's oufit was black and white for the party, I can't see PR letting JB wear blue hair ties. And if her hair was fixed a different way for the party than when she was found, I think that is huge, IMO.

The story was that JB fell asleep, was carried up to her bed where JR ONLY removed her shoes and PR prepared her for bed, and JB remained asleep.

To believe the intruder theory, the intruder would have had to hide in the home, somehow get JB from her bed with her blanket, take her down the winding back stairwell, feed her pineapple, wait up to 2 to 3 hours before murdering her, and somehow restyle her hair in the usual manner in which she slept. And, this was after the intruder led or carried her down the basement stairs, past a door that led directly outside in which there was no alarm set. Then, leave a ransom note on the stairway where it was SURE to be found (how, I don't know) while JB's body was in the basement.

I believe the ransom note was written afterwards, because it was placed on those winding stairs, and if it was there before, the intruder would have had to step OVER it while he was leading (or carrying) JB down those stairs. Either that, or the intruder wrote the letter while JB was sitting in the kitchen eating pineapple.

In MY opinion, this was not an intruder.

I am having a good holiday weekend even though it is rainy here and I vowed not to be on the boards. :)

I hope your weekend is going great too.

IMO

I don't know that JB's hair was restyled after she came home, but I can't see someone like Patsy letting her go to a Christmas party in the hairstyle that she usually wore for bed. Or with blue hair ties when she was wearing a black and white outfit. Now, I can see MOST parents allowing that, but not Patsy.

I believe the note was written afterwards, too. There was green garland found in JB's hair (stated in the autopsy report) and I think there was green garland on the back staircase at the time.

I don't see anything that points to an intruder, either. I try to give as much credence to an intruder theory as possible, but it's just not there for me.

JMO

It's been very rainy here, too, but it's getting better. Getting warmer, too. Dinner out tonight, barbecue tomorrow. :)

Glad to hear you're having a good weekend. :)

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Someone (I think it may have been jmgos) posted the other day that, if the DNA under JonBenet's fingernails matches the DNA mixed with her blood in her panties, that JB, herself, may have transferred it to her panties earlier in the day. I thought that was an interesting idea.

That is interesting. And it makes a lot of sense. I'm sure we've all done it. Transferred minute amounts of DNA.

[nutmeg22]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


If the DNA mixed with JB's blood is, in fact, an artifact (and I realize there is no way to tell whether or not it is), then it is worthless for the investigation in terms of ruling people out. Only a match would possibly lead to the killer.

And as far as giving any concrete value to handwriting analysis, we have just heard a number of specialists tell us that they believe Karr wrote the note. :shrug:

I don't honestly see how anyone can be ruled out except by a very strong alibi.


MissOtis, I have a question..what do you mean when you say "artifact"? I thought I knew the definition, but not in this case. Thanks!

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by nutmeg22



MissOtis, I have a question..what do you mean when you say "artifact"? I thought I knew the definition, but not in this case. Thanks!


That it was there before the crime took place. JB's blood and the white male DNA it was mixed with, may have been deposited in her panties at different times.

[jerzeegirl]

I think Mary Lacy was the one who used the word "artifact". I was confused too. But i now realize that it is a possibility.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I don't know that JB's hair was restyled after she came home, but I can't see someone like Patsy letting her go to a Christmas party in the hairstyle that she usually wore for bed. Or with blue hair ties when she was wearing a black and white outfit. Now, I can see MOST parents allowing that, but not Patsy.

I believe the note was written afterwards, too. There was green garland found in JB's hair (stated in the autopsy report) and I think there was green garland on the back staircase at the time.

I don't see anything that points to an intruder, either. I try to give as much credence to an intruder theory as possible, but it's just not there for me.

JMO

It's been very rainy here, too, but it's getting better. Getting warmer, too. Dinner out tonight, barbecue tomorrow. :)

Glad to hear you're having a good weekend. :)

Yes, I agree with you. I can see MOST parents allowing that, but not Patsy.

In regards to the hairstyle, I believe this is where the White's memory from the previous night of the party probably provided information to the BPD that we are not privy to.

I also remember there was green garland found in JB's hair, and there was green garland on the back stairwell. Which leads me to believe that this is the stairwell that JB was brought or led down, and the same stairwell that the note was found. So again, would an intruder have put the note on those stairs beforehand? In my opinion......no.

Okay, my cookout was suppose to be today and since it's raining I have to cook indoors, so I must go and prepare for my guests.

Have a good weekend.

IMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


Whew...you learned the same math I did! I never learned Sunsplashed's kind of math. :)

On a scale of 1-5, what number is assigned the value of zero?

[nutmeg22]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets



That it was there before the crime took place. JB's blood and the white male DNA it was mixed with, may have been deposited in her panties at different times.

thank you! I learn something new every day. I appreciate it.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


Whew...you learned the same math I did! I never learned Sunsplashed's kind of math. :)

Just put it down to the fact that I'm European. We concentrate more on math there. :)

Now, it only stands to reason that if the number one represented 100%, then SOME number has to represent 0%.

There is a difference between a one-in-five chance and a 1-5 scale, with one being 100% and five being 0%. If NO number is representing 0%, then no one could be excluded at all.

As I said, it's not really important. It's not important at all to me as I don't put stock in handwriting analysis. Several self-styled "experts" said it was certain Karr wrote the note. That speaks for the "science" of handwriting analysis, itself. It's just not important. As I said to MissOtisRegrets, I think the location of the note, what it says, and the fact that it was even written at all are FAR more important.

Much more important to me, right now, is the fact that I'm going to a lake then out to dinner with my husband. ;)

Have a good day. :)

[MissOtisRegrets]

I have always assumed the killer entered the house while the Ramseys were out, but I am wondering now if he/they came after the Ramseys were back. The film the premise of the ransom note is based on and the opening line taken from showed on cable tv in Boulder that night at 7:30 pm. Say it was over by 10. Maybe someone not too tightly wound (or too tightly wound) sat at home, after a bad/lonely Christmas and watched it. Ruminating the whole time on his hatred for John Ramsey. Suddenly, he was fantasizing, while caught up in the film. He may have just gotten up on impulse and gone out and did it. Knew the house. Knew the child. Knew the $18K. Dressed for the occasion bringing ski mask, gloves, duct tape, and cord. The ransom note is written almost satirically. The garrotte was improvised. Would it have been used, if the paint box hadn't been there? The crime has no obvious purpose. Maybe it had none.

MOO

[nutmeg22]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
[B]I have always assumed the killer entered the house while the Ramseys were out, but I am wondering now if he/they came after the Ramseys were back. The film the premise of the ransom note is based on and the opening line taken from showed on cable tv in Boulder that night at 7:30 pm. Say it was over by 10. Maybe someone not too tightly wound (or too tightly wound) sat at home, after a bad/lonely Christmas and watched it. Ruminating the whole time on his hatred for John Ramsey. Suddenly, he was fantasizing, while caught up in the film. He may have just gotten up on impulse and gone out and did it. Knew the house. Knew the child. Knew the $18K. Dressed for the occasion bringing ski mask, gloves, duct tape, and cord. The ransom note is written almost satirically. The garrotte was improvised. Would it have been used, if the paint box hadn't been there? The crime has no obvious purpose. Maybe it had none.

I think this scenario is plausible. I still think it is someone who knew the Ramseys and had been in their home...someone fairly intelligent who would use satire as a means of getting a point across. It could be that this crime had no purpose other than to assuge someone's anger/frustration at this very particular time in his life. JMO

[nutmeg22]

IN the above post, I meant assuage. typing too fast!

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Just put it down to the fact that I'm European. We concentrate more on math there. :)

Now, it only stands to reason that if the number one represented 100%, then SOME number has to represent 0%.
<snip>
There is a difference between a one-in-five chance and a 1-5 scale, with one being 100% and five being 0%. If NO number is representing 0%, then no one could be excluded at all.

Have a good day. :)

0=0, zero, nothing, nada, zilch you can't divide a number by 0

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I have always assumed the killer entered the house while the Ramseys were out, but I am wondering now if he/they came after the Ramseys were back. The film the premise of the ransom note is based on and the opening line taken from showed on cable tv in Boulder that night at 7:30 pm. Say it was over by 10. Maybe someone not too tightly wound (or too tightly wound) sat at home, after a bad/lonely Christmas and watched it. Ruminating the whole time on his hatred for John Ramsey. Suddenly, he was fantasizing, while caught up in the film. He may have just gotten up on impulse and gone out and did it. Knew the house. Knew the child. Knew the $18K. Dressed for the occasion bringing ski mask, gloves, duct tape, and cord. The ransom note is written almost satirically. The garrotte was improvised. Would it have been used, if the paint box hadn't been there? The crime has no obvious purpose. Maybe it had none.

MOO This to me is more believable than the theory presented by Det. Thomas...or whatever his name is!

[Pruddennce]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I don't know that JB's hair was restyled after she came home, but I can't see someone like Patsy letting her go to a Christmas party in the hairstyle that she usually wore for bed. Or with blue hair ties when she was wearing a black and white outfit. Now, I can see MOST parents allowing that, but not Patsy.

I believe the note was written afterwards, too. There was green garland found in JB's hair (stated in the autopsy report) and I think there was green garland on the back staircase at the time.

I don't see anything that points to an intruder, either. I try to give as much credence to an intruder theory as possible, but it's just not there for me.

JMO

It's been very rainy here, too, but it's getting better. Getting warmer, too. Dinner out tonight, barbecue tomorrow. :)

Glad to hear you're having a good weekend. :)

where is green garland stated in the autopsy report?

best regards,
Pru

[harz]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Someone (I think it may have been jmgos) posted the other day that, if the DNA under JonBenet's fingernails matches the DNA mixed with her blood in her panties, and, if the DNA in her panties is an artifact, that JB, herself, may have transferred it to her panties earlier in the day. I thought that was an interesting idea.

I thought JonBenet had bath that night, which it would likely wash away what was under fingernails, and she would have clean underpants afterward.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by Athena


Good morning TGCJ:

Yes Patsy's fingerprints were found on the bowl but as you say it could have been placed there at any time. Heck if someone took fingerprints from any of my glassware, silverware, etc. I'm sure my fingerprints would be all over them as I am the one who does the dishes and puts them away.

The DNA under the fingerprints is degraded so I think it is a moot issue. And it is very possible that there is evidence that we are unaware of. If Mary Lacy was being truthful and I have no reason to believe she was not, according to her there are tidbits that have never been released to the public and I do hope that is true. jmo I admit that I haven't had the time to read all of the info concerning the DNA...and what little I've read on the boards is just confusing me more....some say dna under her nails matched that in the pantys...some say it didn't....and some say there is a complete dna profile that belongs to an undetermined white male......sure LE must think they have the dna of the real killer of JB or why clear Karr only because the dna didn't match..........this is jus confusing................

[harz]

I think it would help ALOT if they cloned the DNA to find out his profile.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by harz


I thought JonBenet had bath that night, which it would likely wash away what was under fingernails, and she would have clean underpants afterward.

By "earlier in the day", I just meant "before the crime".

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by cinderella1008
recently..think on Nancy Grace, she got the person she was interviewing to say that the amount 118,000 was NOT the amount of Mr. Ramsey's bonus,,, DId not give the amount he received but said that it was never said that the figure matched his bonus. That was the first and only time I ever heard anything to the contrary about the amount.


2000 March 18 - John and Patsy Ramsey book, "Death of Innocence"

DOI (HB) Page 120:

"Patsy knew nothing about the amount of the bonus because I took care of the finances and we rarely talked about money. The 118,117.50 dollars I earned that year was deferred compensation, so there was no point discussing the matter with her.

Actually, a number of people had access to this figure. Since I was awarded the bonus in January 1996, the amount was printed on every pay stub I had received during 1996. Someone nosing through our house could have found a pay stub. Numerous workers at Access Graphics could have accessed the information as well. And I might have discussed the figure with anyone working with our taxes or investments."




I think John Ramsey knows better than Nancy Grace's guest. I'm very disturbed at the amount of innacurate info being spread by Court TV concerning this case, especially in the re-airing of their older shows.

And it doesn't matter whether the amount he received is called 'deferred compensation' or a 'bonus'.... the relevant fact is that this amount was printed on his pay stubs.


Not suprprisingly, the Pro-Ramsey people never seem to be bothered about 'rumors' or inaccuracies that are repeated as long as it's beneficial to the Ramseys.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


There was also a palm print on the door which led to JonBenet's body, and a boot print.

The palm print was indentified as belonging to Melinda Ramsey.

The boot print is now thought to have been left by Burke Ramsey.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_1342847,00.html

[jmgos1]

Originally posted by harz


I thought JonBenet had bath that night, which it would likely wash away what was under fingernails, and she would have clean underpants afterward.

I never read anything about JonBenet having a bath before or after the Ramsey attented the White party. Asked if JonBenet had washed her hands at the Whites Patsy had said something to the effect, you know how kids are. That I had read in the police interviews.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by jmgos1


I never read anything about JonBenet having a bath before or after the Ramsey attented the White party. Asked if JonBenet had washed her hands at the Whites Patsy had said something to the effect, you know how kids are. That I had read in the police interviews.

Patsy never mentioned bathing JB on Christmas day before the party.

The kids were outside playing before the party, and there was no mention that they really washed thoroughly before they went to the Whites'.

According to the Ramseys, JB was asleep when they got home.

They put her straight to bed & didn't even wash her hands, let alone bathe her.

[Athena]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


The palm print was indentified as belonging to Melinda Ramsey.

The boot print is now thought to have been left by Burke Ramsey.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_1342847,00.html

Interesting that it is ONLY the Rocky Mountain News that have said this and they DO NOT identify their source. Any article after that specifically refers back to Rocky Mountain as well. Sounds like another unfounded leak to me. When the BPD were asked about those prints when Karr was arrested they refused to say anything about either of them.

Also peculiar is that the palmprint did not match the first time but matched the second time? However Wood did not dispute that.

As far as the bootprint goes -- Burke was only 9 years old at the time. Doubt that this could not have been concluded from day one whether or not that print was a child's print or an adult print? JMHO

[jmgos1]

Originally posted by jmgos1


I never read anything about JonBenet having a bath before or after the Ramsey attented the White party. Asked if JonBenet had washed her hands at the Whites Patsy had said something to the effect, you know how kids are. That I had read in the police interviews.

from the police interview June 23

TH...Would she have washed her hands at a particular time?

PR: Well, at dinner, she rarely washed her hands.
TH: Would she, or perhaps she had been eating crab and you have all that slimy stuff all over?

PR: Yeah, I think she is going to wash her hands. But I didn't see her. I don't know.

TH:Getting her ready that early afternoon, four or five o'clock, did you give her a bath, did she take a bath?
PR: I don't think so.

TH: You don't think you gave her one?
PR: Huh uh.

TH: Do you think she took one?
PR: No, she didn't take one...

[Pruddennce]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


The palm print was indentified as belonging to Melinda Ramsey.

The boot print is now thought to have been left by Burke Ramsey.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_1342847,00.html

you posted a 2002 news report.

best regards,
Pru

[Arizona]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by LI_Mom


The palm print was indentified as belonging to Melinda Ramsey.

The boot print is now thought to have been left by Burke Ramsey.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/dr...1342847,00.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Originally posted by Pruddennce


you posted a 2002 news report.

best regards,
Pru







:lol: To think she just posted this...

"And it doesn't matter whether the amount he received is called 'deferred compensation' or a 'bonus'.... the relevant fact is that this amount was printed on his pay stubs."

"

[hohum]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


How many people do you know who "style" their children's hair for bed? lol

It is a silly idea and confuses the facts at hand.

[hohum]

Originally posted by harz


I thought JonBenet had bath that night, which it would likely wash away what was under fingernails, and she would have clean underpants afterward.

No bath that night or just before going to the White's. I don't know that it's been stated when JB last had her bath, maybe that morning or Christmas Eve?

[ferretplay]

Originally posted by Pruddennce


where is green garland stated in the autopsy report?

best regards,
Pru The green garland was strung on spiral staircase.:read:

[Pruddennce]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ferretplay
The green garland was strung on spiral staircase.:read: [/QUOTE

ok. in the autopsy report? am I missing what the poster stated as fact?

best regards,
Pru

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by nutmeg22

I think this scenario is plausible. I still think it is someone who knew the Ramseys and had been in their home...someone fairly intelligent who would use satire as a means of getting a point across. It could be that this crime had no purpose other than to assuge someone's anger/frustration at this very particular time in his life. JMO

Even someone who knew it had to be done that night, because the Ramseys were going to Charlevoix in the morning.

And everybody and their mother had a key to that house. (22 keys, six accounted for.)

MOO

[ferretplay]

I have PM/PT book.Pages 38-39 have Barbara Kostanick.Her daughter Megan was close friends with JonBenet.Quote from the book["The day before Christmas,Jonbenet was at our house playing with Megan.The kids were talking about Santa,getting all excited.I asked Jonbenet if she had visited Santa Claus yet.She said,"Oh,Santa was at our Christmas party the other night."Megan had seen Santa at the Pearl Street Mall,so we talked about that. Then Jonbenet said,"Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas." I thought she was confused."Christmas is tonight," I told her."And Santa will be coming tonight "No,no," Jonbenet insisted. "He said this would be after Christmas. And it's a secret."] I have followed this incident from the beginning & have never forgot this.I keep coming back to it.Seems like an important clue to me .Maybe it could have led somewhere. :rose:

[sunsplashed]

I think both Santa Bill McReynolds and his wife gave hair, blood, and handwriting samples and were cleared. Who knows what the police and he talked about. Perhaps he did mean to visit JB later on in a perfectly innocent manner.

I read that he had been cleared, but until I find the link again, I'll have to mark this...

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Sorry, double post.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Pruddennce
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ferretplay
The green garland was strung on spiral staircase.:read: [/QUOTE

ok. in the autopsy report? am I missing what the poster stated as fact?

best regards,
Pru

This says green garland, like the garland decorating the spiral staircase in the house, was found tangled in her hair.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/ram1014k.htm

It's not the autopsy report; the source is apparently Linda Arndt.

It also states the ME could not state with certainty whether JB died from the head injury or from strangulation.

It's a newspaper article, though. It's going to have some misinformation, IMO.

[Athena]

Originally posted by ferretplay
I have PM/PT book.Pages 38-39 have Barbara Kostanick.Her daughter Megan was close friends with JonBenet.Quote from the book["The day before Christmas,Jonbenet was at our house playing with Megan.The kids were talking about Santa,getting all excited.I asked Jonbenet if she had visited Santa Claus yet.She said,"Oh,Santa was at our Christmas party the other night."Megan had seen Santa at the Pearl Street Mall,so we talked about that. Then Jonbenet said,"Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas." I thought she was confused."Christmas is tonight," I told her."And Santa will be coming tonight "No,no," Jonbenet insisted. "He said this would be after Christmas. And it's a secret."] I have followed this incident from the beginning & have never forgot this.I keep coming back to it.Seems like an important clue to me .Maybe it could have led somewhere. :rose:

I do too but the BPD were too quick to clear them IMO. It is unforgiveable that the BPD did not consider that anyone else could have committed this crime. I always wondered why Janet McReynolds spoke about JonBenet's "torture" also and the fact that she was a movie critic.

Out of all the suspects I believed these two should have been investigated more thoroughly. They moved to Miss in 1998 and Bill McReynolds died in 2002.


"Janet McReynolds, for 10 years a drama and movie critic for the Boulder Daily Camera, placed little significance in the fact that JonBenet was assaulted and slain in a basement, just like the character in her 1976 play.
"I was surprised that the police wanted to talk to me about Hey Rube, because it never occurred to me that there was a possible connection,'' she said.
Her play is a fictionalized account of a real crime, the 1965 torture and murder of Sylvia Likens in Indiana.
The 16-year-old girl was brutalized by a gang of teen-agers and a woman who had agreed to board Likens in her home.
"She was a teen-ager, and the torture took place over a period of months, and the whole neighborhood was involved,'' Janet McReynolds said.
"In JonBenet's case, the torture was over a short period of time -- I hope.''


http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0302jonnn.htm

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by ferretplay
I have PM/PT book.Pages 38-39 have Barbara Kostanick.Her daughter Megan was close friends with JonBenet.Quote from the book["The day before Christmas,Jonbenet was at our house playing with Megan.The kids were talking about Santa,getting all excited.I asked Jonbenet if she had visited Santa Claus yet.She said,"Oh,Santa was at our Christmas party the other night."Megan had seen Santa at the Pearl Street Mall,so we talked about that. Then Jonbenet said,"Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas." I thought she was confused."Christmas is tonight," I told her."And Santa will be coming tonight "No,no," Jonbenet insisted. "He said this would be after Christmas. And it's a secret."] I have followed this incident from the beginning & have never forgot this.I keep coming back to it.Seems like an important clue to me .Maybe it could have led somewhere. :rose:

We know that the Ramseys were going to Michigan to celebrate Christmas there as well.

It's possible someone in her family told her that she would be seeing Santa after Christmas 12/25 was over & told her something about a surprise which she translated into 'secret.'

At 6 years old, children often confuse facts & wind up tell wild sounding stories.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by Athena


Interesting that it is ONLY the Rocky Mountain News that have said this and they DO NOT identify their source. Any article after that specifically refers back to Rocky Mountain as well. Sounds like another unfounded leak to me. When the BPD were asked about those prints when Karr was arrested they refused to say anything about either of them.

Also peculiar is that the palmprint did not match the first time but matched the second time? However Wood did not dispute that.

As far as the bootprint goes -- Burke was only 9 years old at the time. Doubt that this could not have been concluded from day one whether or not that print was a child's print or an adult print? JMHO





Updated Aug. 23, 2002, 3:02 p.m. ET

Evidence in JonBenet's slaying appears to discount intruder theory

BOULDER, Colo. (AP) — Investigators have concluded that both a palm print and a footprint found in the home of JonBenet Ramsey were actually made by family members, not an intruder as some have suggested, the Rocky Mountain News reported Friday.

Investigators believe the prints found in the basement of the home were not related to the unsolved killing of the 6-year-old beauty queen, whose body was found Dec. 26, 1996.

Investigators have known the answers for some time, the newspaper reported.

A footprint found in mold on the floor of the Ramseys' wine cellar, near where the girl's body was found, was linked by investigators to her then-9-year-old brother, Burke. Burke, now 15, has long since been cleared by authorities.

Investigators also said a long-unidentified palm print on the door leading to the wine cellar is that of Melinda Ramsey, JonBenet's adult half sister, who was in Georgia at the time of the girl's death. The technician who originally ruled her out as the source of the print had made an error, the newspaper said.

"They were certainly some things that had to be answered, one way or the other, and we feel satisfied that they are both answered," the newspaper quoted an unidentified source as saying.

Attorney Lin Wood of Atlanta, who represents JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, said his clients do not dispute the palm-print findings, but he said the family disagrees that the footprint came from Burke.

"Burke Ramsey does not and has never owned a pair of quote, unquote, trademarked Hi-Tec sneakers that the Ramseys are aware of," he said. "I would think they know what shoes he has owned."

He also said the investigators' conclusions regarding the two pieces of evidence do not eliminate the theory that an intruder killed the girl.

"Even if that explanation turns out to be true, but I have serious doubts, it certainly does not outweigh the overwhelming physical evidence and other evidence pointing to an intruder," Wood said.


http://www.courttv.com/archive/news/2002/0823/benet_ap.html

---


"And the mystery of the Hi-Tec boot imprint was solved in grand jury testimony. Prosecutors disclosed in the 2000 interviews of the Ramseys that Burke and one of his friends had told jurors that Burke owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots — something his parents said they somehow overlooked or forgot when they told authorities no one in the family owned such a boot, even though there is a distinctive compass on the boot."

http://www.crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-main.htm



Aug. 29, 2000

Atty. Bruce Levin & John Ramsey


Q. We have been provided, and again, one of the sources of this information is confidential grand jury material I can tell you in the question, but we have been provided information from two sources that your son Burke, prior to the murder of your daughter, owned and wore Hi-Tec boots that had a compass on them, which makes them distinctive. Do you recall -- if you don't recall that they actually were Hi-Tec, do you remember Burke having boots that had a compass on the laces?

A. Vaguely. I don't know if they were boots or tennis shoes. My memory is they were tennis shoes, but that is very vague. He had boots that had lights on them and all sorts of different things.

Q. But you do have some recollection that he had some type of footwear that had compasses attached to them?

A. I don't, I don't specifically remember them, but my impression is that he did, in my mind, yeah. But my impression was that they were tennis shoes.

Q. Sneakers?

A. Sneakers. Yeah. Ask Burke if he remembers it. I said, ask Burke, perhaps he -- well, we could certainly ask Burke.

http://www.webbsleuths.com/john2000.txt

[Athena]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


We know that the Ramseys were going to Michigan to celebrate Christmas there as well.

It's possible someone in her family told her that she would be seeing Santa after Christmas 12/25 was over & told her something about a surprise which she translated into 'secret.'

At 6 years old, children often confuse facts & wind up tell wild sounding stories.
(Added your quote from above to this post "Not suprprisingly, the Pro-Ramsey people never seem to be bothered about 'rumors' or inaccuracies that are repeated as long as it's beneficial to the Ramseys.") A

You know LI Mom I have never responded to a post made by you on a personal basis; have even supported you when I saw another poster unfairly attack you -- but I have to say now that you have repeatedly made blanket statements about pro-Ramsey people repeating rumors or inaccuracies - and I challenge you to show them.

Speaking for myself I support my statements with links, and updated ones I might add. You make statements with no supporting documentation, you make statements such as "I am sure, or even better that you could put yourself into the Ramseys' home and say what they did or did not do and other statements are just speculation. Also links from other forums IMO are not credible sources. They are posters just the same as we are offering their opinions.

This post you say 6 year olds confuse facts and wind up telling wild sounding stories which I suppose is a fair statement. But it is mere speculation on your part that JonBenet now confused the word "surprised" with secret although it was used in the content of "secret visit" - I wonder who is actually telling the wild sounding stories.

Before you make unfounded blanket statements about others I suggest you check out yours first. JMO

[ferretplay]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


This says green garland, like the garland decorating the spiral staircase in the house, was found tangled in her hair.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/ram1014k.htm

It's not the autopsy report; the source is apparently Linda Arndt.

It also states the ME could not state with certainty whether JB died from the head injury or from strangulation.

It's a newspaper article, though. It's going to have some misinformation, IMO. Thanks, I was looking for that.:read:

[Pruddennce]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


This says green garland, like the garland decorating the spiral staircase in the house, was found tangled in her hair.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/ram1014k.htm

It's not the autopsy report; the source is apparently Linda Arndt.

It also states the ME could not state with certainty whether JB died from the head injury or from strangulation.

It's a newspaper article, though. It's going to have some misinformation, IMO.

ok...thought I missed it....because you stated that garland was in her hair....your source/link: autopsy report.

I read the autopsy report: Cause of death of this six year old: 'asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma'.

newspaper articles are flawed.

best regards,
Pru

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Pruddennce


ok...thought I missed it....because you stated that garland was in her hair....your source/link: autopsy report.

I read the autopsy report: Cause of death of this six year old: 'asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma'.

newspaper articles are flawed.

best regards,
Pru

No, I was wrong. I apologize. You didn't miss it, I recalled incorrectly. The autopsy report does not state garland was in her hair, Linda Arndt stated it.

I, too, think newspaper articles are often flawed.

Even police reports are flawed at times.

There was a lot of garland in the house, judging by the photos I've seen. It makes sense to me that there would be garland in her hair. I don't see anything strange about that.

The autopsy report states the way her hair was tied in two ponytails and the blue ties used to tie it.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by Athena


You know LI Mom I have never responded to a post made by you on a personal basis; have even supported you when I saw another poster unfairly attack you -- but I have to say now that you have repeatedly made blanket statements about pro-Ramsey people repeating rumors or inaccuracies - and I challenge you to show them.

Speaking for myself I support my statements with links, and updated ones I might add. You make statements with no supporting documentation, you make statements such as "I am sure, or even better that you could put yourself into the Ramseys' home and say what they did or did not do and other statements are just speculation. Also links from other forums IMO are not credible sources. They are posters just the same as we are offering their opinions.

This post you say 6 year olds confuse facts and wind up telling wild sounding stories which I suppose is a fair statement. But it is mere speculation on your part that JonBenet now confused the word "surprised" with secret although it was used in the content of "secret visit" - I wonder who is actually telling the wild sounding stories.

Before you make unfounded blanket statements about others I suggest you check out yours first. JMO

I made ONE POST today saying 'pro-Ramsey people repeat rumors or inaccuracies' & if I made that statement at another time, it was in response to a specific post or poster. And in particular, I was thinking of the insistence of the pro-Ramsey posters to continually repeat the most likely UNTRUE claim that the dna from the panties & nails came from one person. When asked to provide a link OTHER THAN the single cbsnews article, they never do.

I would think that most people understand that a link to other message forums are going to offer other people's opinions. If people take the time to follow the links, they'll see that they are also a good source of information because the posters THERE are providing links to back up what they are saying.

People who are interested in learning about the case, should be willing to read what people think and WHY they've come to their conclusions.

And of course, most of what people talk about can be called 'speculation.'

But that is not limited to fence sitters or people who already believe the Ramseys are guilty.

People who believe the Ramseys are innocent are posting as much speculation as anyone else. Until someone is tried AND convicted of killing JB... all we have are theories and speculations.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


There was a lot of garland in the house, judging by the photos I've seen. It makes sense to me that there would be garland in her hair. I don't see anything strange about that.



I never understood why the garland was important.

Couldn't she have easily gotten that in her hair when John carried her upstairs to bed?

Or maybe when Arndt laid down on the floor near the tree?

Or even at the party?

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


I never understood why the garland was important.

Couldn't she have easily gotten that in her hair when John carried her upstairs to bed?

Or maybe when Arndt laid down on the floor near the tree?

Or even at the party?

I don't see anything strange about the garland. There was probably garland all over the place, at the Ramseys and at the Whites.

What I find strange is the fact that her hair was in two ponytails, one on top of her head and one lower, and tied with blue ties (that IS in the autopsy report).

I honestly don't think Patsy would let JB wear her hair that way to the Whites. (I've never seen a photos of JB at the Whites, so don't know.)

According to books, that's the way Patsy brushed JB's hair for bed (the Ramseys book even). But other posters have said all Patsy said she did was take off her black velvet jeans and put on the long underwear. And I don't see how a killer would know how JB usually wore her hair when she went to bed. Certainly no one jealous of John or a pedophile or a kidnapper would know how Patsy usually brushed JB's hair for bed.

That, I find strange.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


I made ONE POST today saying 'pro-Ramsey people repeat rumors or inaccuracies' & if I made that statement at another time, it was in response to a specific post or poster. And in particular, I was thinking of the insistence of the pro-Ramsey posters to continually repeat the most likely UNTRUE claim that the dna from the panties & nails came from one person. When asked to provide a link OTHER THAN the single cbsnews article, they never do.

I would think that most people understand that a link to other message forums are going to offer other people's opinions. If people take the time to follow the links, they'll see that they are also a good source of information because the posters THERE are providing links to back up what they are saying.

People who are interested in learning about the case, should be willing to read what people think and WHY they've come to their conclusions.

And of course, most of what people talk about can be called 'speculation.'

But that is not limited to fence sitters or people who already believe the Ramseys are guilty.

People who believe the Ramseys are innocent are posting as much speculation as anyone else. Until someone is tried AND convicted of killing JB... all we have are theories and speculations.

I agree. I find a lot of interesting and thought-provoking things on other boards. Those ideas lead me to research to substantiate or debunk them. I lean much I didn't know before. Some of it leads me to believe the Ramseys are innocent and some of it leads me to believe the Ramseys are guilty.

I think people who aren't willing to read and absorb the thoughts of others have waaaaaay too much invested in this case emotionally and are unable to look at the facts objectively.

I even get Ramsey supporters jumping on me for my word choice. That seems a little "desperate" to me. I'm not out to win any popularity contest. LOL

JMO

[hohum]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


I never understood why the garland was important.

Or even at the party?

Who said there was any garland at the White's Christmas party? The garland in JBs hair matched what was on the Ramsey staircase. More confusion. :no:

[hohum]

Originally posted by Notnathanhecht
Patsy did it. It really is just that simple. The rest of the stuff is a bunch of red herrings.

And thank you for providing the motive and proof of that. :lol:

[Arizona]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


<snip>

I think people who aren't willing to read and absorb the thoughts of others have waaaaaay too much invested in this case emotionally and are unable to look at the facts objectively.

I even get Ramsey supporters jumping on me for my word choice. That seems a little "desperate" to me. I'm not out to win any popularity contest. LOL

JMO



It also can be said people who are willing to read and absorb people's thoughts have too much invested in this case emotionally and are unable to look at the facts objectively.

You dont think that some people who feel the Ramseys are guilty dont jump on others for their wording or posting?

I think it works all ways around. People need to quit nitpicking the spelling or the wording. Or anothers intelligence.
I could sit here and nitpick at how it appears some posters are on here 24/7. Many people, like me, do not have that kind of time to invest into this kind of thing.

My last paragraph is not directed at you. I guess I let more out then expected.

I read some posts where people try to act so much more educated and have made remarks on others grammar or spelling.
If these so-called educated people would stick with the topic of the discussion then I think there would be so much less rumor, confusion and argument.

:)

[Pruddennce]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


No, I was wrong. I apologize. You didn't miss it, I recalled incorrectly. The autopsy report does not state garland was in her hair, Linda Arndt stated it.

I, too, think newspaper articles are often flawed.

Even police reports are flawed at times.

There was a lot of garland in the house, judging by the photos I've seen. It makes sense to me that there would be garland in her hair. I don't see anything strange about that.

The autopsy report states the way her hair was tied in two ponytails and the blue ties used to tie it.

no problem! I did find this:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Legal%20Documents

12/26/06 search warrant

not sure how valid this document is (linked from boulder news archives) but if it is, this is Det Arndt's first mistake:

"At approximately 1300 hours Detective Arndt asked John Ramsey, Fleet (friend of the family, and John Fernie to check the interior of the residence for any sign of JonBenet"

she did not assign someone from LE to go around with JR....she allowed him and family friends to 'search' unescorted? thats not securing 'the scene' IMO...

ps...the affidavit refers to Det A's observation of the garland in her hair...but that never makes it to the official autopsy findings.

best regards,
Pru

[hohum]

Originally posted by Athena


You know LI Mom I have never responded to a post made by you on a personal basis; have even supported you when I saw another poster unfairly attack you -- but I have to say now that you have repeatedly made blanket statements about pro-Ramsey people repeating rumors or inaccuracies - and I challenge you to show them.

Speaking for myself I support my statements with links, and updated ones I might add. You make statements with no supporting documentation, you make statements such as "I am sure, or even better that you could put yourself into the Ramseys' home and say what they did or did not do and other statements are just speculation. Also links from other forums IMO are not credible sources. They are posters just the same as we are offering their opinions.

This post you say 6 year olds confuse facts and wind up telling wild sounding stories which I suppose is a fair statement. But it is mere speculation on your part that JonBenet now confused the word "surprised" with secret although it was used in the content of "secret visit" - I wonder who is actually telling the wild sounding stories.

Before you make unfounded blanket statements about others I suggest you check out yours first. JMO

Very typical of this poster and best just to IGNORE. I've never seen another poster on any message board so able to say what should have been done, could have been done, purely personal speculation without merit as supporting evidence in the case.

[hohum]

Originally posted by Arizona




It also can be said people who are willing to read.....

Here is something key to the case and something many posters have not done. Read any books about the case, read the interrogation transcripts, or done any research. They just hit the keyboard running depending on shows like NG and other message boards for their information. Hence much erroneous information keeps getting posted. Look how many pages of posts were devoted to the color of the shirt JB was wearing the night she was murdered. It shows a lack of real interest in the case not to be correctly informed on the basic facts of the case at the very least. This case is 10 years old and there has been ample time to absorb the facts.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Was there ever an explanation given for the Barbie nightgown that was next to JonBenet's body and had her blood on it?

TIA

[Pruddennce]

Originally posted by Pruddennce


no problem! I did find this:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Legal%20Documents

12/26/06 search warrant

not sure how valid this document is (linked from boulder news archives) but if it is, this is Det Arndt's first mistake:

"At approximately 1300 hours Detective Arndt asked John Ramsey, Fleet (friend of the family, and John Fernie to check the interior of the residence for any sign of JonBenet"

she did not assign someone from LE to go around with JR....she allowed him and family friends to 'search' unescorted? thats not securing 'the scene' IMO...

ps...the affidavit refers to Det A's observation of the garland in her hair...but that never makes it to the official autopsy findings.

best regards,
Pru

edited to reflect date of search warrant: '96 (my typo)

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by hohum


Here is something key to the case and something many posters have not done. Read any books about the case, read the interrogation transcripts, or done any research. They just hit the keyboard running depending on shows like NG and other message boards for their information. Hence much erroneous information keeps getting posted. Look how many pages of posts were devoted to the color of the shirt JB was wearing the night she was murdered. It shows a lack of real interest in the case not to be correctly informed on the basic facts of the case at the very least. This case is 10 years old and there has been ample time to absorb the facts.

Well thats pretty ignorant to give such a blanket statement. Probably a very few people here get there info about the case from NG and the others you spoke about. THose books written are just an opinion of the author, so please people, dont rely on books either. Look at the facts. Then use your own opinion, not any one elses, from the facts that you read.

[hohum]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


Probably a very few people here get there info about the case from NG and the others you spoke about. THose books written are just an opinion of the author, so please people, dont rely on books either.

Oh sure NG is hardly ever mentioned here.

What books have you read? There are many facts of the case not personal opinions in Perfect Murder Perfect Town. Have you read that book? Facts come from research and reading not message boards.:lol:

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Arizona




It also can be said people who are willing to read and absorb people's thoughts have too much invested in this case emotionally and are unable to look at the facts objectively.

You dont think that some people who feel the Ramseys are guilty dont jump on others for their wording or posting?

I think it works all ways around. People need to quit nitpicking the spelling or the wording. Or anothers intelligence.
I could sit here and nitpick at how it appears some posters are on here 24/7. Many people, like me, do not have that kind of time to invest into this kind of thing.

My last paragraph is not directed at you. I guess I let more out then expected.

I read some posts where people try to act so much more educated and have made remarks on others grammar or spelling.
If these so-called educated people would stick with the topic of the discussion then I think there would be so much less rumor, confusion and argument.

:)

Amen Arizona! The baiting is so childish here, nitpicking is pretty hysterical and the gang rushing is just bullyish.

[drip~drop1]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


I thought the panties were a gift from the Aunt and that was why the size was larger than she normally wore?

Hi TCH! LTNS!:seeya:

After Patsy's death one of her sisters was on LKL (I think it was) and said that extra packages of undies in various sizes were kept at the house just in case a guest needed a pair.
Since I don't have a link, I'll just MOO it.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Was a satisfactory explanation ever given for this?:


http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The%20Body

"A "Barbie" nightgown belonging to JonBenet was also found in the wine cellar near her body. (SMF P 149; PSMF P 149.) JonBenet's blood was found only on her body and the Barbie nightgown. (SMF P 150; PSMF P 150.)" (Carnes 2003:17).


TIA

[hohum]

Originally posted by drip~drop1


Hi TCH! LTNS!:seeya:

After Patsy's death one of her sisters was on LKL (I think it was) and said that extra packages of undies in various sizes were kept at the house just in case a guest needed a pair.
Since I don't have a link, I'll just MOO it.

Thanks for posting and resolving the undies mystery, not that someone won't ask about this at least 20 more times. A poster has even tried to make Patsy out as a bad mother for making JB wearing undies that were too large. :shrug:

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Was a satisfactory explanation ever given for this?:


http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The%20Body

"A "Barbie" nightgown belonging to JonBenet was also found in the wine cellar near her body. (SMF P 149; PSMF P 149.) JonBenet's blood was found only on her body and the Barbie nightgown. (SMF P 150; PSMF P 150.)" (Carnes 2003:17).


TIA

Not that I have read. It's not something that is even mentioned very often in discussions. I feel that speculation is just around the corner though. If you read anything about it please post! :seeya:

[TGCJ]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


Amen Arizona! The baiting is so childish here, nitpicking is pretty hysterical and the gang rushing is just bullyish.

...havent you heard, theres a big prize waiting for who can be the biggest bully and post the most finger wagging icons.

books, transcripts, interrogation videos can be used for either side of the fence to form an opinion. the bottom line is whether youre for or against the ramseys its still defies logic that the child was killed in the house, the perp left no evidence, and the parents just dont have a clue who would have done such a thing or why.

someone was chastized because they thought maybe the beauty pagents had something to do with jbr being killed. well why wouldnt a creep that likes little kids not focus on a beauty pagent. it was just another example of trying to defend patsy imo.
as far as spelling grammar and syntax, heres what a master story teller had to say about those things.

http://www.twainquotes.com/Spelling.html

i admit it makes me feel better when i see someones spelling thats worse than mine but it doesnt mean they dont have something worthwhile to say.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by hohum


Oh sure NG is hardly ever mentioned here.

What books have you read? There are many facts of the case not personal opinions in Perfect Murder Perfect Town. Have you read that book? Facts come from research and reading not message boards.:lol:

oh gee thanks for letting me know......so your assuming because we are all here, including you, that we only get our info from here. Please......like i said, blanket statements, some maybe, but not most. Most get their info from interviews, depositions, photos, then and only then do they make their own opinions. There are ALOT of intelligent people on both sides of this fence, and even the ones who sit right smack in the middle. Call the ones out that you want to, but dont dare say it is most people here, that is ignorant and arrogant.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


Not that I have read. It's not something that is even mentioned very often in discussions. I feel that speculation is just around the corner though. If you read anything about it please post! :seeya:

I know this will make you crazy but I saw a program on tv (I believe it was not too long before Patsy died, I have no idea what the show was or who was speaking, I was still following Blake) in which it was said that fibers consistent with those of the cord she was tied with were found in JonBenet's bed. Since the white blanket from the bed was taken to the basement, do you believe she was taken to the basement already bound/unconscious? Do you believe a stun gun was used?

TIA

:seeya:

[drip~drop1]

Originally posted by hohum


Thanks for posting and resolving the undies mystery, not that someone won't ask about this at least 20 more times. A poster has even tried to make Patsy out as a bad mother for making JB wearing undies that were too large. :shrug:

I hadn't read the whole thread so I didn't realize there was a dispute. I mostly wanted to give a shout out to tch. lol

But anyhoooo, I know lots of parents with young children that keep xtra packages of undies available for "just in case" emergencies. Heck, my parents did it too. Kept em in the guest room dressers.

[hohum]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


oh gee thanks for letting me know......so your assuming because we are all here, including you, that we only get our info from here.

You keep insinuating you don't get your info from here. Have you remembered what books you read yet, about the JB case?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


Not that I have read. It's not something that is even mentioned very often in discussions. I feel that speculation is just around the corner though. If you read anything about it please post! :seeya:

But, if she wasn't wearing it, why was it there? For clean up?

[hohum]

Originally posted by drip~drop1


I hadn't read the whole thread so I didn't realize there was a dispute. I mostly wanted to give a shout out to tch. lol

But anyhoooo, I know lots of parents with young children that keep xtra packages of undies available for "just in case" emergencies. Heck, my parents did it too. Kept em in the guest room dressers.

This would be found on the JB threads when they open again after the holiday. Maybe you would be so kind to post the answer to the undies mystery on that board if you have time. :seeya:

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


But, if she wasn't wearing it, why was it there? For clean up?

I don't know, but it's a good question. I have heard very little discussion of that Barbie nightgown. Just a mention here and there. One hears more about the blanket. And of course the never ending discussion of JBs top she was found in and what color was it.........:lol:

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by hohum


You keep insinuating you don't get your info from here. Have you remembered what books you read yet, about the JB case?

There are no facts on this forum, just opinions and nice people who can point you to the facts. The facts that are in the books are the same facts that are in the documents, autopsy, karrs arrest warrants, etc. The books are only the authors opinions based on the facts. So how would reading the books enlighten me even more than the facts that are at our fingertips?

Example: Coldwater can write a book tomorrow about this case, based on the facts and sway the readers opinion. Its truly the authors opinion based on the facts.


PS sorry CW .....just needed to use a neutral name

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


I know this will make you crazy but I saw a program on tv (I believe it was not too long before Patsy died, I have no idea what the show was or who was speaking, I was still following Blake) in which it was said that fibers consistent with those of the cord she was tied with were found in JonBenet's bed. Since the white blanket from the bed was taken to the basement, do you believe she was taken to the basement already bound/unconscious? Do you believe a stun gun was used?

TIA

:seeya:

I did hear about the fibers from the cord. I have never realized a theory of the night JB died. I absolutely do believe the stun gun theory and there is proof--the two sets of marks, identical and the same distance apart. There are many good shows on this case, for instance the 48 Hours show and others. If you see any that are coming to TV please let us know. :seeya:

[hohum]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


So how would reading the books enlighten me even more than the facts that are at our fingertips?



Then are you saying you haven't read any books about the JB case?

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by hohum


Then are you saying you haven't read any books about the JB case?

Did you read my last post? I said i dont have to.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


I did hear about the fibers from the cord. I have never realized a theory of the night JB died. I absolutely do believe the stun gun theory and there is proof--the two sets of marks, identical and the same distance apart. There are many good shows on this case, for instance the 48 Hours show and others. If you see any that are coming to TV please let us know. :seeya:

I was just starting to write you a post about it being odd that the perp would bring a blanket to protect her from the cold, if it was intended to keep her in the house or kill her, and risk getting fibers all over himself for nothing, when I thought, "She was soaked with urine! He was protecting himself from the urine!" That might, also, explain the nightgown that was kept under the pillow being brought to the basement.

[drip~drop1]

Originally posted by hohum


This would be found on the JB threads when they open again after the holiday. Maybe you would be so kind to post the answer to the undies mystery on that board if you have time. :seeya:

I will if you remind me. lol
I've barely been to the JBR board since I realized JMK nutzy nutz.

I think I'm back on the fence again.

>
>
>
>
If CW writes a book do we get autographed copies?:cool:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by drip~drop1


If CW writes a book do we get autographed copies?:cool:

Yes. We get free autographed copies.


Hey drip!

:seeya:

house

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Yes. We get free autographed copies.


Hey drip!

:seeya:

house


geez i bet she could write a book about all these boards, now THAT would be interesting.

I would love to know her opinion on some of these cases. I remember her having a few comments during the SP trial. But not for either side. Very neutral

[Athena]

Hey jerzeegirl
I was wondering where u were. I had left you a message on the board where we were discussing the storm (I think it was the Introductions thread) and asked you to check in. The last I saw a message from you it sounded like you were worried about flooding and I thought you may have lost your connection.

Anyway good to see you are safe and hopefully dry!! :)

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Athena
Hey jerzeegirl
I was wondering where u were. I had left you a message on the board where we were discussing the storm (I think it was the Introductions thread) and asked you to check in. The last I saw a message from you it sounded like you were worried about flooding and I thought you may have lost your connection.

Anyway good to see you are safe and hopefully dry!! :)

Thanks athena, i did lose power, on and off yesterday. The lagoons flooded us out and my neighbors tree split in half, landed on my jeep in the driveway. Still there pending insurance companies next week. Could be a while. Noone hurt thank god. The water went back out today with low tide....phew!

Im in ocean county NJ. If youve ever heard of Point Pleasant or Tomsriver (seaside), im right smack between those two towns.

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Was a satisfactory explanation ever given for this?:


http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The%20Body

"A "Barbie" nightgown belonging to JonBenet was also found in the wine cellar near her body. (SMF P 149; PSMF P 149.) JonBenet's blood was found only on her body and the Barbie nightgown. (SMF P 150; PSMF P 150.)" (Carnes 2003:17).


TIA

Hiya MissOtis....

I have searched and searched and cannot find any info on this nightgown. The only thing I could find was the interview with Patsy Ramsey where she was questioned about it and in reading it now realize that the Barbie nightgown was not the nightgown under JBR's pillow. It was another one-piece described as a Genie outfit.

But anyway the transcript:

21 TOM HANEY: This is the pink -- excuse me --

22 the pink item that again is in a plastic bag where the

23 photo was taken.

24 PATSY RAMSEY: That is her (inaudible). Why

25 was that there?

0383

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

13 TOM HANEY: Where would this particular --

14 well, let me back up.

15 Does this item have some particular

16 significance?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.

18 TOM HANEY: How many nightgowns did she have?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: A lot.

20 TOM HANEY: Twenty, 30?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 10 or so.

22 TOM HANEY: Did this one have some particular

23 significance?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember who gave it to

0384

1 her?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

3 TOM HANEY: Do you remember whether you got

4 it for her? Was it a gift.

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God, it might --

6 TOM HANEY: Take some time because this is --

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Is this the only

8 picture we have of this?

9 TOM HANEY: Correct. The only one here

10 today.

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm thinking of a Barbie

12 nightgown that had a big face of Barbie.

13 TRIP DEMUTH: It has a plastic over it, so

14 there is some glare there. You see the plastic.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah; right. What I'm saying,

16 I'm -- I remember a Barbie nightgown with a picture,

17 big picture of the head of Barbie on it. So I am not

18 quite sure this is her -- you know, one that she had.

19 TOM HANEY: Okay. You know, it appears --

20 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under

21 there.

22 TOM HANEY: It appears from the waist down

23 you can see that much, but from the waist up, because

24 of the plastic, there is a flash and the reflection

25 that is washed out.

0385

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The nightgowns were

2 kept in the bathroom, in her bathroom in the side

3 drawer there. Her pajamas were there.

4 TOM HANEY: All of them?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Unless they were in the dirty

6 clothes.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

[Athena]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


Thanks athena, i did lose power, on and off yesterday. The lagoons flooded us out and my neighbors tree split in half, landed on my jeep in the driveway. Still there pending insurance companies next week. Could be a while. Noone hurt thank god. The water went back out today with low tide....phew!

Im in ocean county NJ. If youve ever heard of Point Pleasant or Tomsriver (seaside), im right smack between those two towns.

Just glad you are OK. That is what is important. :)
Actually I have heard of those towns -- is Wayne anywhere near you??

[jerzeegirl]

maybe the killer was going to change her into the nightgown, just in case his/her fibers, hairs were left on her clothes that she was wearing. Confusing.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Athena


Just glad you are OK. That is what is important. :)
Actually I have heard of those towns -- is Wayne anywhere near you??

no, wayne is more north Jersey. Probably parallel to NYC, a little further west. Very nice town though, thats bergen county, big money there, alot of commuters from NYC live there.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Thanks Athena! Am I understanding this correctly that Patsy doesn't even think that is JonBenet's gown?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Glad you are OK, jerzeegirl. The pictures on tv are horrific.

Take good care,

:seeya:

house

[Angelina]

Here is theory that I think is very probable. It makes sense, I will remain a fencesitter, though.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/5046/behavior.html

[hohum]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


Did you read my last post? I said i dont have to.

That explains a lot.

[Athena]

Originally posted by drip~drop1


I hadn't read the whole thread so I didn't realize there was a dispute. I mostly wanted to give a shout out to tch. lol

But anyhoooo, I know lots of parents with young children that keep xtra packages of undies available for "just in case" emergencies. Heck, my parents did it too. Kept em in the guest room dressers.

Patsy bought the underwear at Bloomingdales in NY as a gift for her niece who was older than JonBenet but never gave them to her. Patsy did not put on JonBenet's underwear -- she did. They were in her underwear drawer and they said Wednesday on them and Christmas 1996 was a Wed.

Link to transcript:
18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start
19 with what - I will make it very simple for
20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you
21 in possession of or what do you know about
22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing
23 at the time she was found murdered?
24 A. I have heard that she had on a
25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.
0078
1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?
5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many
12 trips did you make to New York?
13 A. Two, I believe.
14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the
15 same, same qualification I gave you when we
16 started, which is, I understand that you are
17 not going to give me exact dates, but the
18 two trips you made, did you make those with
19 different groups of people?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip
22 with?
23 A. The first trip was a
24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra
25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan
0079
1 Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her
2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.
3 Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her
4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.
5 Q. And the second trip you made was?
6 A. The second trip we made was with
7 Glen and Susan Stein.
8 Q. Is that the trip -- which trip
9 was the November trip?
10 A. With the children.
11 Q. Was that -- that is the first
12 trip?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the second trip that you and
15 your husband and the Steins took, was that
16 also November, but later in the month, or
17 was that a December trip?
18 A. I think it was December.
19 Q. And maybe this will help jog your
20 memory as to time. I believe that was the
21 time of the Christmas parade in Boulder.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you out of town?
0080
1 A. I remember that.
2 Q. Which of those two trips did you
3 purchase the Bloomi's?
4 A. The first trip.
5 Q. Was it something that was selected
6 by JonBenet?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. Was it your intention, when you
9 purchased those, for those to be for her,
10 not for some third party as a gift?
11 A. I bought some things that were
12 gifts and some things for her. So I
13 don't --
14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is
15 your best recollection that the purchase of
16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the
17 week, was something that you bought for her,
18 whether it was just I am buying underwear
19 for my kids or these are special, here's a
20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your
21 intention that she would wear those?
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
0081
1 niece.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Glad you are OK, jerzeegirl. The pictures on tv are horrific.

Take good care,

:seeya:

house

thanks MsO........

:)

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl
maybe the killer was going to change her into the nightgown, just in case his/her fibers, hairs were left on her clothes that she was wearing. Confusing.

And there was blood on the nightgown. Hard to understand what was going through the perp's mind, when he took her downstairs. I think it's more likely she was carried, incapacitated or bound or both, because the blanket from the bed was brought. Why would it have been brought, if she was walking?

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Thanks Athena! Am I understanding this correctly that Patsy doesn't even think that is JonBenet's gown?

Hmm . the way I read it is that she knew she had a Barbie nightgown she was sure she had not worn it in the past couple of days. I don't think it was clear in the photo shown her. I think if you read further in the transcript she does ask if there was another photo of it. imo

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


And there was blood on the nightgown. Hard to understand what was going through the perp's mind, when he took her downstairs. I think it's more likely she was carried, incapacitated or bound or both, because the blanket from the bed was brought. Why would it have been brought, if she was walking?

But then when did she eat the pineapple?

[Athena]

Originally posted by hohum


But then when did she eat the pineapple?

I'll probably get "beat up". Are we sure it was pineapple? I don't say too much about it cause everyone seems to be sure it was. But when I read the autopsy report I can't get the description out of my head that says, brownish, greenish substance consistent with pineapple. Maybe not the exact words -- how do we know it wasn't a vegetable or something she ate at the party? That keeps bugging me. Were they sure it was pineapple in the bowl or even if she definitely at out of that bowl? I recall reading somewhere they did not even notice the bowl until hours later?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Angelina
Here is theory that I think is very probable. It makes sense, I will remain a fencesitter, though.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/5046/behavior.html

Very interesting, Angelina. Thanks for posting this. I am reading PMPT at the moment. It states that the FBI, also, thought the sexual aspects of this crime were staged.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena


Hmm . the way I read it is that she knew she had a Barbie nightgown she was sure she had not worn it in the past couple of days. I don't think it was clear in the photo shown her. I think if you read further in the transcript she does ask if there was another photo of it. imo



Thanks. I had trouble understanding what she was saying and thought she was saying the picture on JB's only had Barbie's head on it. At any rate, it was not the nightgown under her pillow. It would have come from a drawer in the bathroom. Right? How would a perp know that?

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Athena


I'll probably get "beat up". Are we sure it was pineapple? I don't say too much about it cause everyone seems to be sure it was. But when I read the autopsy report I can't get the description out of my head that says, brownish, greenish substance consistent with pineapple. Maybe not the exact words -- how do we know it wasn't a vegetable or something she ate at the party? That keeps bugging me. Were they sure it was pineapple in the bowl or even if she definitely at out of that bowl? I recall reading somewhere they did not even notice the bowl until hours later?

ok lets assume its not pineapple in her intestine. Still.....how did the bowl of pineapple get on the counter?

was the intruder comfortable enough to sit and eat fruit before they got home? Remember hes prolly crazy anyway....why not?

[Athena]

Originally posted by Angelina
Here is theory that I think is very probable. It makes sense, I will remain a fencesitter, though.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/5046/behavior.html

Hi Angelina,

I actually responded to a post that DixieChick made a couple of pages back with the same link (below). l had also posted it on the regular forum but did not get many responses. Do you know if the Ramseys knew any friends/associates in law enforcement?

Originally posted by DixieChick


Totally outrageous!!! Sad, they were not given the presumption of innocence that every person deserves.

I would believe someone in the police dept did the crime before I would believe it was either John or Patsy!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Athena


Funny you should say that about the Police. The author of this Behavioral Analysis believes the killer may have been someone in law enforcement. Of course any analysis is speculation but it is quite fascinating:

THE OFFENDER:

The offender , and human monster, is above all an individual who has a tremendous need for excitement, recognition and attention. It is an organized offender who is skilled, pays close attention to details, and is capable of meticulously carrying out a complex plan. The offender has the need and ability to control others, and is in some position of power or authority. Being of high intelligence, this individual would be employed as a professional, and simply could not tolerate a subservient job. An ability to communicate would be present, with reasonably good social skills, but only in their role as a professional. In everyday personal relationships they would come across as a very cold, distant and insensitive person. It is not likely that they would have a spouse, or many close , personal relationships. They would be totally wrapped up in their profession , and their life would be their job in Law Enforcement. This very knowledgeable offender knows about Police procedures, and as stated in the ransom note/letter, is "familiar with Law enforcement countermeasures, and tactics". This individual has also had extensive training, and probably did some extra studying, on matters involving child abduction and molestation.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/...6/behavior.html

[hohum]

Originally posted by Athena


I'll probably get "beat up". Are we sure it was pineapple? I don't say too much about it cause everyone seems to be sure it was. But when I read the autopsy report I can't get the description out of my head that says, brownish, greenish substance consistent with pineapple. Maybe not the exact words -- how do we know it wasn't a vegetable or something she ate at the party? That keeps bugging me. Were they sure it was pineapple in the bowl or even if she definitely at out of that bowl? I recall reading somewhere they did not even notice the bowl until hours later?

Pineapple seems like something that would have been at the White's party but I am thinking, no link, that Priscilla said no pineapple was there? To be sure LE investigated all that JB would have eaten the last 24 hours. Didn't they?

[Athena]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


ok lets assume its not pineapple in her intestine. Still.....how did the bowl of pineapple get on the counter?

was the intruder comfortable enough to sit and eat fruit before they got home? Remember hes prolly crazy anyway....why not?

LOL -- So there was pineapple in the bowl or was it empty? I don't know.

This case has so many twists and turns. :confused:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


But then when did she eat the pineapple?

This I have no idea about. Did the perp get the pineapple out? Was she fed in the basement? The stun gun would only have a temporary effect.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Athena


LOL -- So there was pineapple in the bowl or was it empty? I don't know.

This case has so many twists and turns. :confused:

lol ill go check on that

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


ok lets assume its not pineapple in her intestine. Still.....how did the bowl of pineapple get on the counter?

was the intruder comfortable enough to sit and eat fruit before they got home? Remember hes prolly crazy anyway....why not?

I've heard it suggested (TV again) that one of the friends who came over may have gotten the pineapple out.

[Athena]

I was trying to think of a vegetable that may look like pineapple after being digested and I thought of cauliflower that is why I asked if it was definitely pineapple? Also wouldn't fresh pineapple be strange in December in CO?

Here's the exact wording from the Autopsy Report re: the contents:

The yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/ramsey.case/final.autopsy.html

[MissOtisRegrets]

This makes no sense. How would the perp know where her clean nightgowns were kept? Maybe she was up, getting the nightgown out, herself, when he came upstairs. Maybe he brought it with him (if it's not hers). Why was there blood on it? We've heard in the last couple of weeks that it is common for pedophiles to have an obsession with Barbie.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm


1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The nightgowns were

2 kept in the bathroom, in her bathroom in the side

3 drawer there. Her pajamas were there.

4 TOM HANEY: All of them?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Unless they were in the dirty

6 clothes.

[Athena]

Didn't it say one of the drawers were open?

I went and looked again:

17 TRIP DEMUTH: This is her bathroom, her sink.

18 Which drawer would the Barbie doll nightgown have been

19 kept in?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably that one or the one

21 below it.

22 TRIP DEMUTH: The one that is opened or below

23 it right there in photo 18?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.

25 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

[Athena]

Time for bed.

Goodnight all! :seeya:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena
Didn't it say one of the drawers were open?

I went and looked again:

17 TRIP DEMUTH: This is her bathroom, her sink.

18 Which drawer would the Barbie doll nightgown have been

19 kept in?

20 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably that one or the one

21 below it.

22 TRIP DEMUTH: The one that is opened or below

23 it right there in photo 18?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.

25 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

Thanks, Athena. So she might have been surprised in the bathroom?

Good night!

:seeya:

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


This I have no idea about. Did the perp get the pineapple out? Was she fed in the basement? The stun gun would only have a temporary effect.

Remember she was shot twice with the stun gun.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


Remember she was shot twice with the stun gun.

I haven't a clue on this. Not a clue. lol