Two Ramsey Questions

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


Here is the autopsy report.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet1.html

This is what I was reading. I'm sorry. I'm just not getting this entirely. So she did die or almost died from strangulation from the cord around her neck, but it was made to look a lot more exotic than it actually was?

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...read.php?t=6751

[Athena]

jerzeegirl: that's what I get for not continuing to read.

But it is not true to say that he did not turn on the light if he could not recall after the fact. I can only imagine the shock he would have been in. But just the fact that he said it was dark and must have turned on the light; he says he doesn't remember but it could have been just an automatic reaction - not something to think about so wouldn't stand out in his mind???

My basement is dark - and I turn the light on without even thinking "oh I have to turn on the light"????

And I would think even in the dark you would see something if it is white? (the white blanket?) and know it is not supposed to be there?

But I wasn't there.

So many twists and turns. Oh my!!!

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


i remember patsy stating in her interview that because fleet wasnt really working, he had both her children quite often. But that she trusted him and he was a great father.

Patsy said they called Fleet, "Mr. Mom."

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by DixieChick


White's accusation is very bothersome. Why would a friend even doubt you?

How do we know John is telling the truth? We don't.

If he had something to do with JB's murder or coverup he has a powerful reason to lie and claim Fleet's lying. If he's angry at Fleet he also has a pretty good reason to make the police believe Fleet's lying.

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


But, that's not really fair to say in this case is it?

After all, we were not there, the White's were. They are the one's who were present on Christmas Eve, they saw JonBenet then, their memories were fresh the next day when JonBenet was found murdered in her own home.

The White's were cleared, and became witnesses.

IMO

Well the White's are suspects imo. Alex Hunter was bothered by their behavior too. They got eliminated as suspects because they sided with LE.

[hohum]

Originally posted by DixieChick


Thanks Athena! I hadn't seen the room. So he was far enough into the room to turn on the lite and see something on the floor. White's accusation is very bothersome. Why would a friend even doubt you?

They wouldn't. Fleet proved that he was not a real friend.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Athena
jerzeegirl: that's what I get for not continuing to read.

But it is not true to say that he did not turn on the light if he could not recall after the fact. I can only imagine the shock he would have been in. But just the fact that he said it was dark and must have turned on the light; he says he doesn't remember but it could have been just an automatic reaction - not something to think about so wouldn't stand out in his mind???

My basement is dark - and I turn the light on without even thinking "oh I have to turn on the light"????

And I would think even in the dark you would see something if it is white? (the white blanket?) and know it is not supposed to be there?

But I wasn't there.

So many twists and turns. Oh my!!!

i agree, i think it is second nature to just turn on a light before walking into a dark room. But that statement that JR made did stick out in my mind, he couldnt remember. In all honesty, i didnt see your edit to your own post before i posted that lol, otherwise i wouldnt have bothered.

[Athena]

Originally posted by DixieChick


Thanks Athena! I hadn't seen the room. So he was far enough into the room to turn on the lite and see something on the floor. White's accusation is very bothersome. Why would a friend even doubt you?

I'm looking at the various pictures on that site and it looks like you have to go around a corner??? Am I not seeing this correctly?

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by hohum


LOL what will people think of next........

Did the ransom note say I hate you JB? My gosh the killer did not know or could not even spell her name and referred to her as "your daughter."

How could you possibly know that the "kidnapper" didn't know JB's name, or how to spell it? If that person had spent all that time in the home preparing that ransom letter, casing the home on how to get in, studying the family on when they would be gone, then how could they NOT know the name of John Ramsey's daughter? I mean, if this person had so much hatred for John Ramsey surely they knew everything about him, right?

See, I have another angle on why the "kidnapper" didn't use JB's name. I think it was someone extremely close to her, and after realizing what they had done and while writing that staged ransom letter they couldn't bring themselves to write her name.

Also, I see that you are still thinking a stun gun was used, but if that's the case, do you have a theory on when JB might have ate the pineapple?

IMO

[hohum]

Originally posted by DixieChick


Well the White's are suspects imo. Alex Hunter was bothered by their behavior too. They got eliminated as suspects because they sided with LE.

Pretty smart of Fleet to have done that. Then LE wouldn't be looking at him.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Athena


I'm looking at the various pictures on that site and it looks like you have to go around a corner??? Am I not seeing this correctly?

has it ever been stated exactly where in that room she was laying? ive been trying to figure that out

[Athena]

Originally posted by DixieChick


Well the White's are suspects imo. Alex Hunter was bothered by their behavior too. They got eliminated as suspects because they sided with LE.

Which would not have been a hard thing to do because the LE as far as they were concerned already had their killer and White just added credence to what they were already thinking anyway. IMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


has it ever been stated exactly where in that room she was laying? ive been trying to figure that out

If you go to the pictures on the link I provided above - it shows different angles and it doesn't look like it was just a walk-in room and it shows where JBRs body was.

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Hmmm. So the garrotte is bs, too? She died from the blow to the head?

No, she died from being strangled. And it's evident in the photo's that a rope was used to do that in some manner. But, the garrotte has always been BS, because it wasn't a true garrotte.

And all the ropes were staged in some manner. They gave the visual impression that JB had been restrained and her neck garrotted. But when you really look at the knots, ropes, paint brush, all the 'torture' looking things, they were not capable of doing what the maker was trying show.

The posters opinion that I linked gives a really good, indepth look into the staging. It's explained really well.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Do you all find it suspicious that John tried to fly his family to Atlanta on the 26th? His reason given at the time was that he had something important to do. Later he said that he had been afraid for his family.

[Athena]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


That's how I feel also.

If my child had problems getting clean, maybe I'd send them over with some wipes to make it easier to clean up & hope for the best.

But since Fleet was taking back soiled panties, it's logical that HE was NOT helping her wipe. He or his wife, probably just told her to borrow a pair of Daphne's panties and change.

:shrug:

It was Fleet's wife however that told the BPD that Fleet changed JBR's underwear. (see previous posts)

[hohum]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


How could you possibly know that the "kidnapper" didn't know JB's name, or how to spell it? If that person had spent all that time in the home preparing that ransom letter, casing the home on how to get in, studying the family on when they would be gone, then how could they NOT know the name of John Ramsey's daughter? I mean, if this person had so much hatred for John Ramsey surely they knew everything about him, right?

See, I have another angle on why the "kidnapper" didn't use JB's name. I think it was someone extremely close to her, and after realizing what they had done and while writing that staged ransom letter they couldn't bring themselves to write her name.

Also, I see that you are still thinking a stun gun was used, but if that's the case, do you have a theory on when JB might have ate the pineapple?

IMO

It seems a little odd that the killer didn't mention JB by name. After all, he used John and Mr. Ramsey. I don't believe that the killer's hatred was directed at JB so it's probable he might not have known her name or more especially how to spell it. It was an unusual name. I really believe that pineapple was put out at the Ramsey house in the afternoon before the White's party. And that it might have been left over from the Ramsey Christmas party on the 23rd, which was probably catered. Other than that I have no clue as to the pineapple. Why would Patsy have lied about the pineapple if she gave it to JB? What purpose would that have served? :shrug:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


No, she died from being strangled. And it's evident in the photo's that a rope was used to do that in some manner. But, the garrotte has always been BS, because it wasn't a true garrotte.

And all the ropes were staged in some manner. They gave the visual impression that JB had been restrained and her neck garrotted. But when you really look at the knots, ropes, paint brush, all the 'torture' looking things, they were not capable of doing what the maker was trying show.

The posters opinion that I linked gives a really good, indepth look into the staging. It's explained really well.

It was that rope that strangled her, but that rope is not a garrotte. Is that right?

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


has it ever been stated exactly where in that room she was laying? ive been trying to figure that out

Scroll down:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer2/primer10_blue.html

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


It was that rope that strangled her, but that rope is not a garrotte. Is that right?

You pm box is full.:seeya:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


No, she died from being strangled. And it's evident in the photo's that a rope was used to do that in some manner. But, the garrotte has always been BS, because it wasn't a true garrotte.

And all the ropes were staged in some manner. They gave the visual impression that JB had been restrained and her neck garrotted. But when you really look at the knots, ropes, paint brush, all the 'torture' looking things, they were not capable of doing what the maker was trying show.

The posters opinion that I linked gives a really good, indepth look into the staging. It's explained really well.

Does this sound like something someone young would do? It's very pretentious imo. I have always thought the ransom note sounded young. By young I mean under 30.

[Athena]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


I haven't read your post above but FYI here is the layout of the house - it shows where JonBenet was found.

http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/floors.htm

Great diagram. So he did have to pass the light switch and "turn" slightly before he could see JBR's body.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by hohum


It seems a little odd that the killer didn't mention JB by name. After all, he used John and Mr. Ramsey. I don't believe that the killer's hatred was directed at JB so it's probable he might not have known her name or more especially how to spell it. It was an unusual name. I really believe that pineapple was put out at the Ramsey house in the afternoon before the White's party. And that it might have been left over from the Ramsey Christmas party on the 23rd, which was probably catered. Other than that I have no clue as to the pineapple. Why would Patsy have lied about the pineapple if she gave it to JB? What purpose would that have served? :shrug:

Lie about the pineapple to help bolster your 'intruder theory.'

If they staged the crime scene, they needed some proof a stranger was in their house.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


I haven't read your post above but FYI here is the layout of the house - it shows where JonBenet was found.

http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/floors.htm

so she was kinda around the corner, and the lightswitch is inside the room not outside according to the diagram.

http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/floors.htm

[samsong]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


Lie about the pineapple to help bolster your 'intruder theory.'

If they staged the crime scene, they needed some proof a stranger was in their house.

The pineapple would also change the story that she was sleeping and was carried to bed.

[Athena]

Well have to go finish my laundry - can't go to work naked.

MsGator and MsOtis -- great having you join the discussion -- now even more twists and turns to this case you have bought. LOL

Goodnight all!!!! :seeya:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


You pm box is full.:seeya:

I emptied it about an hour ago when I read your other post, msgator. There's nothing in it. Does it still say it's full?

:seeya:

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Do you all find it suspicious that John tried to fly his family to Atlanta on the 26th? His reason given at the time was that he had something important to do. Later he said that he had been afraid for his family.

If I remember, John wanted to be his near his family, his brother, and Patsy's family, sisters, mother and father. Also JB was to be buried in Georgia. Might as well go on down since they were not going back to their house.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer
Very interesting. This is the most well written post I have seen in reference to the staging of the cords. Kudos to the writer for explaining it so well.

Worth the read, IMO

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6751

That's excellent. Thanks for posting it.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena
Well have to go finish my laundry - can't go to work naked.

MsGator and MsOtis -- great having you join the discussion -- now even more twists and turns to this case you have bought. LOL

Goodnight all!!!! :seeya:

Thanks for all the great posts and links, Athena!

:seeya:

MissO

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Does this sound like something someone young would do? It's very pretentious imo. I have always thought the ransom note sounded young. By young I mean under 30.

That's also what the profiler John Douglas said. Someone young and educated. Male.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


so she was kinda around the corner, and the lightswitch is inside the room not outside according to the diagram.

http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/floors.htm

Yes, that's why Fleet couldn't find the light switch when he was down there earlier. It was not close to the doorway, like in a normal house.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


Are you two talking behind our backs? lol

We're trying, but not getting very far lol. My pm box is misbehaving.

:seeya:

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


Yes, that's why Fleet couldn't find the light switch when he was down there earlier. It was not close to the doorway, like in a normal house.

well according to that diagram, youd have to open the door to get to the lightswitch, if im seeing it correctly of course.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


That's also what the profiler John Douglas said. Someone young and educated. Male.

Thanks. :seeya:

Was the housekeeper's son-in-law ever suspected?

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


Yes, that's why Fleet couldn't find the light switch when he was down there earlier. It was not close to the doorway, like in a normal house.

Except John said he saw her right away.

JR: "Pull on the door, it was latched. I reach up and unlatched it, and then I saw the white blanket, (inaudible)."

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/36.html

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


We're trying, but not getting very far lol. My pm box is misbehaving.

:seeya:

I had the same problem until a poster told me I needed to delete my sent PMs as well as the ones I received.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Except John said he saw her right away.

JR: "Pull on the door, it was latched. I reach up and unlatched it, and then I saw the white blanket, (inaudible)."

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/36.html

Exactly!

John himself made it sound as if he "saw" her body before he even entered the room.

That's why it makes no sense to blame Fleet White for questions surrounding John Ramsey's actions (or inactions).

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


I had the same problem until a poster told me I needed to deleted my sent PMs as well as the ones I received.

That was the problem. Thanks.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


Do we know how JonBenet's hair was fixed when she went to the party? "Puppy dog ears" as they are called in the South are worn by many little girls her age throughout the day as well as when they sleep.:shrug:

IMO

Ocean

Except when she was found in the wine cellar, her hair wasn't in "puppy dog ears."

From the autopsy report: "...fixed in two ponytails, one on top of the head secured by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band, and one in the lower back of the head secured by a blue elastic band."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet4.html

I admit, I do not know how she wore her hair to the White's party, but I would bet $10,000 Patsy did not let her wear it that way. And, I'd bet an additional $20,000 that the killer (if it was not Patsy) did NOT rearrange JB's hair.

Last paragraph...

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


Exactly!

John himself made it sound as if he "saw" her body before he even entered the room.

That's why it makes no sense to blame Fleet White for questions surrounding John Ramsey's actions (or inactions).

Exactly. John later tries to say he "may" have turned on the light, that he "probably" did, but this is his first statement to the police in his April 30, 1997 interview about finding JB's body.

I think JR just wanted to case suspicion on an innocent Fleet White.

JMO

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks. :seeya:

Was the housekeeper's son-in-law ever suspected?

Mary Lacy said after the Karr arrest that 200 people had been looked at as serious suspects. I don't suppose there is a list of those investigated for public consumption? :shrug:

About the author of the ransom note. They were very familiar with current movies. And must have watched them often to offer so many quotes in the ransom note. The Ramsey's were not movie buffs. See the interrogation transcripts.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by hohum


That's also what the profiler John Douglas said. Someone young and educated. Male.

Not everyone agreed with John Douglas' profile.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9701/31/ramsey.murder/index.html


And John Douglas has made mistakes in the past, so we know he's not infallible.

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by Athena


I'm looking at the various pictures on that site and it looks like you have to go around a corner??? Am I not seeing this correctly?

It looks like the lite switch is well inside the room.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


Mary Lacy said after the Karr arrest that 200 people had been looked at as serious suspects. I don't suppose there is a list of those investigated for public consumption? :shrug:

About the author of the ransom note. They were very familiar with current movies. And must have watched them often to offer so many quotes in the ransom note. The Ramsey's were not movie buffs. See the interrogation transcripts.

Thanks. I would think those knots were not tied by John Ramsey.

[hohum]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


I think in PM/PT it says after he open the door he reached in and flipped the switch - and I'm "remembering" so don't hold me to it - but I think it said to his left. Looking at the diagram does that sound right? Didn't the door open out of the room?

I would think there was some light on in the basement hallway or other areas which offered some light into the little dark windowless room where JB lay. They weren't just feeling their way around the basement with no light on at all were they?

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


That's excellent. Thanks for posting it.

YW, Sun. It is very good.

What do you think about the suggestion that it wasn't even a lasso, loop type, pull chord that killed JB, but just a standard, double knot tied very tightly until it strangled her to death?

This would explain why JB's hair was in knot around her neck. And why the rope is still so tight around her neck at autopsy that the pathologist had to cut it off.

Food for thought. And something that I never noticed or thought about, even though I've been saying all along that all the ropes were staged.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


Not everyone agreed with John Douglas' profile.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9701/31/ramsey.murder/index.html


And John Douglas has made mistakes in the past, so we know he's not infallible.

You are right. No one's infallible and I include the ME, Meyer in the group. I believe the head wound could have come first, especially as there was extensive bruising of JB's brain.

Other, experienced experts believe the head wound came first:

http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1997/07/15-2.html

[hohum]

Originally posted by LI_Mom




And John Douglas has made mistakes in the past, so we know he's not infallible.

I suppose you know someone who is? :lol:

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Except when she was found in the wine cellar, her hair wasn't in "puppy dog ears."

From the autopsy report: "...fixed in two ponytails, one on top of the head secured by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band, and one in the lower back of the head secured by a blue elastic band."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet4.html

I admit, I do not know how she wore her hair to the White's party, but I would bet $10,000 Patsy did not let her wear it that way. And, I'd bet an additional $20,000 that the killer (if it was not Patsy) did NOT rearrange JB's hair.

Last paragraph...

JMO

thats how the artist drawing depicted her hair .....one on top and looks like one on bottom. Ill look for the artist picture.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


So how many suspect are on our list? I can name at least three "prime" suspects.......

Who are they? And why?

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


YW, Sun. It is very good.

What do you think about the suggestion that it wasn't even a lasso, loop type, pull chord that killed JB, but just a standard, double knot tied very tightly until it strangled her to death?

This would explain why JB's hair was in knot around her neck. And why the rope is still so tight around her neck at autopsy that the pathologist had to cut it off.

Food for thought. And something that I never noticed or thought about, even though I've been saying all along that all the ropes were staged.

i always thought the wrist ropes looked staged, never thought of the garrotte (which doesnt look like a garrotte to me now that ive researched what they really are) until that link. interesting.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


So how many suspect are on our list? I can name at least three "prime" suspects.......

I bet the real killer is not on our list and probably never has been.

IMO

Ocean

[hohum]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


You are right. No one's infallible and I include the ME, Meyer in the group. I believe the head wound could have come first, especially as there was extensive bruising of JB's brain.

Other, experienced experts believe the head wound came first:

http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1997/07/15-2.html

Why don't you ask Henry too much blood for a beating Lee. :lol:

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


YW, Sun. It is very good.

What do you think about the suggestion that it wasn't even a lasso, loop type, pull chord that killed JB, but just a standard, double knot tied very tightly until it strangled her to death?

This would explain why JB's hair was in knot around her neck. And why the rope is still so tight around her neck at autopsy that the pathologist had to cut it off.

Food for thought. And something that I never noticed or thought about, even though I've been saying all along that all the ropes were staged.

I've said all along the ropes were staged, too, and that the head wound came first. I don't care if it didn't bleed that much. There was extensive bruising of her brain and brusing requires bleeding which requires that she be alive when the wound is inflicted.

I agree with Dr. Kirschner, that the wound is consistent with striking her head against a hard, flat surface. No laceration to the scalp, but a huge contusion.

http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1997/07/15-2.html

Personally, I think the "garotte" was fashioned from rope that was used to carry Patsy's paintings to and from various places.

JMO

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


Yes, that's why Fleet couldn't find the light switch when he was down there earlier. It was not close to the doorway, like in a normal house.
Yes and that explains why John could see more, as he was well inside the room.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Exactly. John later tries to say he "may" have turned on the light, that he "probably" did, but this is his first statement to the police in his April 30, 1997 interview about finding JB's body.

I think JR just wanted to case suspicion on an innocent Fleet White.

JMO

Ya think? lol

I think the blow out in Ga, seriously pissed off the Ramseys AND their inner circle.

Maybe they were so angry they actually believed the Whites were guilty or maybe they merely thought they would pay them back for questioning their hiring lawyers?

I certainly wouldn't put revenge past the Ramseys.

Patsy tells us in DOI that she & Susan Stine had a grand old time evading the media in a high speed car chase.

John tells us that his co-workers enjoying pelting the media with snowballs to pay them back for bothering them.

Patsy tells us that John aimed a rifle at the media across the lake in Michigan and pretended to shoot them.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


Not everyone agreed with John Douglas' profile.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9701/31/ramsey.murder/index.html


And John Douglas has made mistakes in the past, so we know he's not infallible.

The day that everyone agrees I want to see it lol. It doesn't matter who they are...profilers or forensic experts they disagree all the time on the same subject.

I find Douglas to be pretty darned good and he has had an exceptional career.

IMO

Ocean

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by hohum


It seems a little odd that the killer didn't mention JB by name. After all, he used John and Mr. Ramsey. I don't believe that the killer's hatred was directed at JB so it's probable he might not have known her name or more especially how to spell it. It was an unusual name. I really believe that pineapple was put out at the Ramsey house in the afternoon before the White's party. And that it might have been left over from the Ramsey Christmas party on the 23rd, which was probably catered. Other than that I have no clue as to the pineapple. Why would Patsy have lied about the pineapple if she gave it to JB? What purpose would that have served? :shrug:

But, there was a substance found in JB's system that resembled pineapple. And, the bowl of pineapple on the counter had PR's and Burkes (if I recall) prints on it.

Like another poster already stated, if PR admitted that she gave pineapple to JB that night it would mean that she had lied, that JB had been awake sometime after they returned home.

IMO

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


The day that everyone agrees I want to see it lol. It doesn't matter who they are...profilers or forensic experts they disagree all the time on the same subject.

I find Douglas to be pretty darned good and he has had an exceptional career.

IMO

Ocean

Yeah, and that's the problem with this case. For every expert that points to a Ramsey there's someone else right behind saying it was an intruder.:shrug:

And I can see the views on both ends as being possible.:confused:

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


Ya think? lol

I think the blow out in Ga, seriously pissed off the Ramseys AND their inner circle.

Maybe they were so angry they actually believed the Whites were guilty or maybe they merely thought they would pay them back for questioning their hiring lawyers?

I certainly wouldn't put revenge past the Ramseys.

Patsy tells us in DOI that she & Susan Stine had a grand old time evading the media in a high speed car chase.

John tells us that his co-workers enjoying pelting the media with snowballs to pay them back for bothering them.

I wouldn't blame the Ramsey's for taking revenge either!

Patsy tells us that John aimed a rifle at the media across the lake in Michigan and pretended to shoot them.



I certainly wouldn't put revenge past the Ramseys.

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by DixieChick




I certainly wouldn't put revenge past the Ramseys.



Meant to say I wouldn't blame them!!!

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer
Very interesting. This is the most well written post I have seen in reference to the staging of the cords. Kudos to the writer for explaining it so well.

Worth the read, IMO

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6751

This was a VERY good.

Thanks.

IMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by DixieChick

Yes and that explains why John could see more, as he was well inside the room.

John should have been able to see LESS.

As one poster already pointed out, I think it was dcog, when Fleet went down it was still dark, or almost dark. At least the sun was not shining yet. Fleet eyes were already "dark adjusted," i.e., the pupils were enlarged to admit more light. He could have seen more easily in dim areas.

John went down to the wine cellar in the afternoon, from a sun-filled room. His eyes were not yet "dark adjusted," i.e., the pupils had not yet enlarged to admit the dim light. It would have been like walking from bright sunshine into a dark movie theatre. Worse, since movie theatres have a little light. His eyes would have needed time to adjust. Yet in his April 30, 1997 police interview, John claims to have seen the body of JB as soon as he unlatched the door.

(Link given in previous post.)

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


The day that everyone agrees I want to see it lol. It doesn't matter who they are...profilers or forensic experts they disagree all the time on the same subject.

I find Douglas to be pretty darned good and he has had an exceptional career.

IMO

Ocean

LOL! Good point, the day everyone agrees will probably be the day the world ends. lol

I generally like John Douglas also but I just don't think he did a good job on this case. He created his profile after only speaking to the Ramseys team, he would have gotten a better picture if he looked outside that small circle, I believe.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


This was a VERY good.

Thanks.

IMO

It explains a LOT, doesn't it? I'm glad msgatorslayer found it and the person who wrote it wrote it.

He's right: physics don't lie. There was no "garotte." It as all part of a staged scene.

JMO

[jerzeegirl]

i also often wondered......why would an intruder choose a windowless room, at night when noone can see into a dark basement from a window anyway. If anyone came down there, the intruder would have been cornered.....all the other rooms, there would have been an outlet. But heh, who is to say that intruders are smart.

[jmgos1]

I don't know if this was asked and answered, but why didn't John or Patsy wake burke and ask him if he knew what had happened to his sister? Instead they hustled him to the Whites home.
I know that if I thought one of my children were missing I would ask the others in the house first. jmo

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by DixieChick


Meant to say I wouldn't blame them!!!

No, I don't necessarily blame them either BUT I think it shows how they react to people/groups that they don't like or where they are not in control.

[samsong]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


You are right. No one's infallible and I include the ME, Meyer in the group. I believe the head wound could have come first, especially as there was extensive bruising of JB's brain.

Other, experienced experts believe the head wound came first:

http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1997/07/15-2.html

I have heard experts state that the head wound was first. If that were to be true, it changes everything.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by jmgos1
I don't know if this was asked and answered, but why didn't John or Patsy wake burke and ask him if he knew what had happened to his sister? Instead they hustled him to the Whites home.
I know that if I thought one of my children were missing I would ask the others in the house first. jmo

Very good question.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


The day that everyone agrees I want to see it lol. It doesn't matter who they are...profilers or forensic experts they disagree all the time on the same subject.

I find Douglas to be pretty darned good and he has had an exceptional career.

IMO

Ocean

No one has to agree. Total agreement makes discussion pretty bland and boring.

What I don't understand is why certain posters on this board have to pick at others and attempt to bait them and try to fight.

I'm not talking about you, Ocean, and I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about two in particular (you are NOT one) who seem to be here to bait anyone who doesn't agree with them.

And, while these posters have attempted to "bait" me (a hopeless task on their part), I've seen them bait a LOT of others as well.

Personally, I think it's demeaning to one's parents to either bait or accept bait. I would never disrespect my parents and the values they instilled in me by doing that.

I think people who believe the anonymity of a computer monitor gives them license to say anything they feel like saying have severe problems with self-esteem. (JMO, of course.)

Again, I don't mean you. I find you polite. I'm only replying to you because you made the post about agreement.

JMO

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


It explains a LOT, doesn't it? I'm glad msgatorslayer found it and the person who wrote it wrote it.

He's right: physics don't lie. There was no "garotte." It as all part of a staged scene.

JMO

Yes, it does explain a lot. Physics don't lie.

The scene was all staged.

IMO

[samsong]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl
i also often wondered......why would an intruder choose a windowless room, at night when noone can see into a dark basement from a window anyway. If anyone came down there, the intruder would have been cornered.....all the other rooms, there would have been an outlet. But heh, who is to say that intruders are smart.

I don't know. If we are to believe everything this intruder did, he/she was pretty smart.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


But, there was a substance found in JB's system that resembled pineapple. And, the bowl of pineapple on the counter had PR's and Burkes (if I recall) prints on it.

Like another poster already stated, if PR admitted that she gave pineapple to JB that night it would mean that she had lied, that JB had been awake sometime after they returned home.

IMO

I just don't get what the big deal is about the pineapple. If Patsy had given it to her then PATsy would certainly know it was going to show up. JonBenet sleeping or not sleeping at the time at 10pm when she came home is not the issue is it? Even if JB had woken up and wanted something to eat and Patsy gave her pineapple and then she went to bed doesn't change what happened after they all went to sleep and the killer came in and took JB from her bedroom, does it?

I just don't see why Patsy would deliberately lie about something when if she had done this (which imo she didn't) she simply would have told them ...yeah she woke up when John carried her in and wanted pineapple and then went to bed.

Sooo there is no fingerprints of JBs at all on the pineapple. Then imo there is the answer. JB did not eat the pineapple that was Burkes that probably Patsy had fixed early for him.


IMO

Ocean

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by jmgos1
I don't know if this was asked and answered, but why didn't John or Patsy wake burke and ask him if he knew what had happened to his sister? Instead they hustled him to the Whites home.
I know that if I thought one of my children were missing I would ask the others in the house first. jmo

I've wondered the same thing myself, jmgos. I'd think one of the first things they'd do when Patsy ran back upstairs would be to ask Burke if he saw or heard anything unusual.

John states that he hustled Burke off to Fleet White's because, under the circumstances, he thought it was the best place for him. I can't say I disagree with that, but I do find it extremely odd that they did not ask Burke if he heard JB up in the night.

JMO

[jerzeegirl]

i fall silent when certain posters are posting, i just read and hopefully remember things i want to post for later. Thats cuz im :chicken: Some get too nasty.

But i do love their :lol: 's

and :beer: 's

crack me up

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by jmgos1
I don't know if this was asked and answered, but why didn't John or Patsy wake burke and ask him if he knew what had happened to his sister? Instead they hustled him to the Whites home.
I know that if I thought one of my children were missing I would ask the others in the house first. jmo

I never understood that either. And I never WILL understand it, either.



DOI pg. 11 Patsy:

"Burke!" John yells. "What about Burke?"

Both of us race to B's room at the far end of the second floor & find him apparently still asleep. Best not to arouse him until we figure out what's happening here, I think. He's better off asleep for now. I step into the hall.

[MissOtisRegrets]

For the people who think the Ramseys killed their daughter: what do you think happened in that house?


TIA

:seeya:

MissO

[chambord]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Very good question.


*That* I would have to agree with. Was any thing every asked of Burke prior to his removal from the scene, does anyone know?

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


I just don't get what the big deal is about the pineapple. If Patsy had given it to her then PATsy would certainly know it was going to show up. JonBenet sleeping or not sleeping at the time at 10pm when she came home is not the issue is it? Even if JB had woken up and wanted something to eat and Patsy gave her pineapple and then she went to bed doesn't change what happened after they all went to sleep and the killer came in and took JB from her bedroom, does it?

I just don't see why Patsy would deliberately lie about something when if she had done this (which imo she didn't) she simply would have told them ...yeah she woke up when John carried her in and wanted pineapple and then went to bed.

Sooo there is no fingerprints of JBs at all on the pineapple. Then imo there is the answer. JB did not eat the pineapple that was Burkes that probably Patsy had fixed early for him.


IMO

Ocean

If Patsy were guilty, and I'm not saying she is, but if she were, and she made the mistake of telling the police JB slept through the night, she couldn't very well say she had had a snack of pineapple.

Regarding Patsy giving Burke a snack of pineapple, Patsy denies knowing anything about where the bowl of pineapple came from in her April 30, 1997 police interview.

(Link posted earlier by me.)

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes



I just don't see why Patsy would deliberately lie about something when if she had done this (which imo she didn't) she simply would have told them ...yeah she woke up when John carried her in and wanted pineapple and then went to bed.



If the parents staged the scene, they certainly needed SOME kind of 'evidence' that an intruder was in their home & killed their daughter.

Denying knowledge of the pineapple as well as other very 'innocent' things gives them something concrete to point to. If they did it, they already know there are no fingerprints or dna... they need something.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


I just don't get what the big deal is about the pineapple. If Patsy had given it to her then PATsy would certainly know it was going to show up. JonBenet sleeping or not sleeping at the time at 10pm when she came home is not the issue is it? Even if JB had woken up and wanted something to eat and Patsy gave her pineapple and then she went to bed doesn't change what happened after they all went to sleep and the killer came in and took JB from her bedroom, does it?

I just don't see why Patsy would deliberately lie about something when if she had done this (which imo she didn't) she simply would have told them ...yeah she woke up when John carried her in and wanted pineapple and then went to bed.

Sooo there is no fingerprints of JBs at all on the pineapple. Then imo there is the answer. JB did not eat the pineapple that was Burkes that probably Patsy had fixed early for him.


IMO

Ocean

thats one way to see it, another that ive thought of though is......

If patsy had already insisted with certainty that JB was asleep and never woke up as part of a story for covering herself ,......then she cant back out and say that she allowed her to have something to eat that night. She may have overlooked the bowl.

I dont know its just a thought here from the fence.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by samsong


I don't know. If we are to believe everything this intruder did, he/she was pretty smart.

He/she was extremely quiet as well.

JMO

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


I never understood that either. And I never WILL understand it, either.



DOI pg. 11 Patsy:

"Burke!" John yells. "What about Burke?"

Both of us race to B's room at the far end of the second floor & find him apparently still asleep. Best not to arouse him until we figure out what's happening here, I think. He's better off asleep for now. I step into the hall.

and she said in her first interview that she DIDNT go check on burke, John did.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by chambord



*That* I would have to agree with. Was any thing every asked of Burke prior to his removal from the scene, does anyone know?

They never mention it in their book.

Around 7, John goes upstairs to wake Burke to send him over to Fleet's house. They DO mention that B carries his new video to play over there but not a word about asking him if he saw or heard anything.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by jmgos1
I don't know if this was asked and answered, but why didn't John or Patsy wake burke and ask him if he knew what had happened to his sister? Instead they hustled him to the Whites home.
I know that if I thought one of my children were missing I would ask the others in the house first. jmo

Wasn't he asleep in his own room which is on the opposite end even though on same floor? They had the ransom note didn't they? I think they instantly thought she was gone and Burke, like them had slept through it all.

I don't know if I would wake my 9 year old up with all of this happening. Frankly I hope and pray I never have to find out what I would do.....I am sure it wouldn't make a lick of sense.

Didn't he leave later with the Whites or immediately. To me that home was no place for a small child with all of this unfolding.

I thought the Whites stayed awhile?

IMO

Ocean

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


I just don't get what the big deal is about the pineapple. If Patsy had given it to her then PATsy would certainly know it was going to show up. JonBenet sleeping or not sleeping at the time at 10pm when she came home is not the issue is it? Even if JB had woken up and wanted something to eat and Patsy gave her pineapple and then she went to bed doesn't change what happened after they all went to sleep and the killer came in and took JB from her bedroom, does it?

I just don't see why Patsy would deliberately lie about something when if she had done this (which imo she didn't) she simply would have told them ...yeah she woke up when John carried her in and wanted pineapple and then went to bed.

Sooo there is no fingerprints of JBs at all on the pineapple. Then imo there is the answer. JB did not eat the pineapple that was Burkes that probably Patsy had fixed early for him.


IMO

Ocean

Yes, your right. Patsy would have mentioned she gave JB pineapple if she thought it would be detected, if she was thinking about such a thing, if something DID happen.

But, what if she forgot? what if PR forgot all about giving JB pineapple until AFTER it was detected in her system?and the pineapple was found on the counter. Then, she couldn't very well go back and say she had lied, could she?

And, If PR had given the pineapple to Burke, then why didn't she say so? instead, she says she didn't know where it came from.

IMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl
i fall silent when certain posters are posting, i just read and hopefully remember things i want to post for later. Thats cuz im :chicken: Some get too nasty.

But i do love their :lol: 's

and :beer: 's

crack me up

I just post around them, but their smilies are sort of amusing.

I'll glance at their posts if they're short and I don't have them on Ignore, but I don't read the longer posts. People with totally closed minds rarely post anything informative.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


and she said in her first interview that she DIDNT go check on burke, John did.

I always felt their book was 99% self-serving & not very big on facts. lol

[samsong]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


He/she was extremely quiet as well.

JMO

I know and practically "spirit like" since they left barely any trace of being there for hours.

[hohum]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


But, there was a substance found in JB's system that resembled pineapple. And, the bowl of pineapple on the counter had PR's and Burkes (if I recall) prints on it.

Like another poster already stated, if PR admitted that she gave pineapple to JB that night it would mean that she had lied, that JB had been awake sometime after they returned home.

IMO

That pineapple wasn't even noticed until a picture appeared. Patsy didn't run to the police officer when they arrived at the house saying my gosh check that strange bowl of pineapple on the table. A stranger must have been here. :lol:

And BTW, don't forget about the glass with the teabag in it sitting next to the pineapple.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


I never understood that either. And I never WILL understand it, either.



DOI pg. 11 Patsy:

"Burke!" John yells. "What about Burke?"

Both of us race to B's room at the far end of the second floor & find him apparently still asleep. Best not to arouse him until we figure out what's happening here, I think. He's better off asleep for now. I step into the hall.

I have three small children. I would have awakened him to see if he was really okay and to ask if he heard anything.

JMO

[chambord]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


They never mention it in their book.

Around 7, John goes upstairs to wake Burke to send him over to Fleet's house. They DO mention that B carries his new video to play over there but not a word about asking him if he saw or heard anything.

And I find that curious. Thinking back to when my kids were young uns, I would certainly ask, sleep or no sleep, if they knew anything. Not necessarily that Burke was in on anything nefarious, but perhaps, if Jon Benet had mentioned something *odd* to him during the day. My kids were the greatest source of info in those days when I wanted or needed inside info on what was going on in their every day little lives, lol.

[chambord]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


I bet the real killer is not on our list and probably never has been.

IMO

Ocean


That's where I sit, too!

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I have three small children. I would have awakened him to see if he was really okay and to ask if he heard anything.

JMO

I know that's what I would have done.

IMO

[hohum]

Originally posted by samsong


I know and practically "spirit like" since they left barely any trace of being there for hours.

What were they going to do, slam doors and drawers and ransack the house? Turn the TV on, music from the stereo, play the piano? This wasn't a robbery it was a kidnapping/murder. Methinks one wouldn't want to alert the rest of the household while one is strangling a victim. :confused:

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


They never mention it in their book.

Around 7, John goes upstairs to wake Burke to send him over to Fleet's house. They DO mention that B carries his new video to play over there but not a word about asking him if he saw or heard anything.

They may not have even explained it to him then.

I remember I had a burglary come into my home several years back...my brother thank goodness caught him when he was leaving for work. Anyway the guy had rummaged our stuff and then passed out on our couch. I told my brother to get the shotgun and he did but I did not go to my son's door. I didn't want him coming out or knowing what was going on and start panicking. He eventually cracked his door and I told him to shut it and not come out. My hubby wasn't here and yeah LE came and hauled him off. When my brother racked that 12 g. and nudged him in the gut.... he woke up and then froze completely still. LMAO! Funny now...scary then. My top concern was for my son and his safety. It scared him so much that my mom came and got him and took him to her house.

IMO

Ocean

[chambord]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


I know that's what I would have done.

IMO


:seeya: Me too, has I stated above, and its so *good* to see you again.

[LI_Mom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jerzeegirl
[B]i also often wondered......why would an intruder choose a windowless room, at night when noone can see into a dark basement from a window anyway. If anyone came down there, the intruder would have been cornered.....all the other rooms, there would have been an outlet.

IF the intent was kidnapping, why not grab the kid & use one of the back or side doors as soon as you come downstairs?

IF you wanted to kill her & then make it look like a sexual assault, WHY the long note?

IF the murder was just to hurt John, why waste time writing about a kidnapping instead of gloating about the murder? Why not kill BOTH kids?

None of it makes sense.

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by hohum


That pineapple wasn't even noticed until a picture appeared. Patsy didn't run to the police officer when they arrived at the house saying my gosh check that strange bowl of pineapple on the table. A stranger must have been here. :lol:

And BTW, don't forget about the glass with the teabag in it sitting next to the pineapple.

Wait a minute. I've heard this mentioned before. That the pineapple wasn't noticed until some time way later. I've even heard it was weeks.

Listed on the search warrant dated the 26th, at 8pm, is a bowl, spoon, and glass.

I would imagine that it was known then that there was pineapple in the bowl, no?'

Or is this a different bowl, spoon, and glass?

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by chambord



That's where I sit, too!

Yep, he has had his grandiose ego gorged for 10 years. I bet he sits back and laughs his evil head off.

IMO

Ocean

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by chambord



:seeya: Me too, has I stated above, and its so *good* to see you again.

You too chambord.

:D

[Hey Paula]

The more I think about this case, the more I've begun to think that the person who killed JonBenet might have been trying to frame Patsy. PR's paint brush was used to make the garrotte, her writing paper and pen to write the ransom letter, and the person even tried to write a little like PR. I recall it being mentioned that some expressions in the letter were one's that Patsy used, and some were contained in a book Patsy was reading. The ransom note was left on the back stairs - the same stairs Patsy used.

IMO

ETA: Hi Hope! :seeya:

Great to see you!

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
For the people who think the Ramseys killed their daughter: what do you think happened in that house?


TIA

:seeya:

MissO

It's so hard to speculate, MissOtis. It could be anything. I have tended not to believe the bedwetting theory, though.

I think some kind of argument, JB might have fallen and struck her head and in a panic, the Ramseys covered it up.

I know I keep coming back to the hair, but the way JB's hair was brushed and tied back when her body was discovered tells me that she WAS awake that night when she was put to bed. I just don't see a woman like Patsy letting JB go to the White's party with her hair styled in the style she wore to bed. I wish there were photos of JB at the White's party, but I've never seen any.

(See autopsy report for the way her hair was styled when found.)

I found Patsy Ramsey an unlikable person, so I try to bend over backward to accept an intruder theory and not let the fact that I found her abrasive and unlikable color my thinking.

I might be able to accept an intruder theory if it weren't for three things:

1. The placement of the ransom note and the fact that it was even written;

2. The bowl of pineapple bearing Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints;

3. The way JB's hair was brushed when she was found.

JMO

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Hey Paula
The more I think about this case, the more I've begun to think that the person who killed JonBenet might have been trying to frame Patsy. PR's paint brush was used to make the garrotte, her writing paper and pen to write the ransom letter, and the person even tried to write a little like PR. I recall it being mentioned that some expressions in the letter were one's that Patsy used, and some were contained in a book Patsy was reading. The ransom note was left on the back stairs - the same stairs Patsy used.

IMO

ETA: Hi Hope! :seeya:

Great to see you!

i have thought of the same thing......now someone just has to figure out.....who is it.lol

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


They may not have even explained it to him then.

I remember I had a burglary come into my home several years back...my brother thank goodness caught him when he was leaving for work. Anyway the guy had rummaged our stuff and then passed out on our couch. I told my brother to get the shotgun and he did but I did not go to my son's door. I didn't want him coming out or knowing what was going on and start panicking. He eventually cracked his door and I told him to shut it and not come out. My hubby wasn't here and yeah LE came and hauled him off. When my brother racked that 12 g. and nudged him in the gut.... he woke up and then froze completely still. LMAO! Funny now...scary then. My top concern was for my son and his safety. It scared him so much that my mom came and got him and took him to her house.

IMO

Ocean

Yikes! Glad nobody got hurt.

But in the Ramsey's case, they DID go to Burke's room and did nothing. And they KNEW their daughter was supposedly stolen in the middle of the night.

IF they think the kidnapper might still be in the house, why leave B upstairs alone?

IF they think the kidnapper is gone, the immediate danger has passed so why not ask him right away?

[hohum]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl
i also often wondered......why would an intruder choose a windowless room, at night when noone can see into a dark basement from a window anyway. If anyone came down there, the intruder would have been cornered.....all the other rooms, there would have been an outlet. But heh, who is to say that intruders are smart.

If one is killing someone, what better place to be than the fartherest corner of the house. So as not to "disturb" the others who were sleeping. The stun gun allowed the killer to get JB downstairs.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by hohum


What were they going to do, slam doors and drawers and ransack the house? Turn the TV on, music from the stereo, play the piano? This wasn't a robbery it was a kidnapping/murder. Methinks one wouldn't want to alert the rest of the household while one is strangling a victim. :confused:

They might as well, if you believe they'd use a stun gun that was loud and didn't disable the victim, but made him/her scream very loudly.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by hohum


If one is killing someone, what better place to be than the fartherest corner of the house. So as not to "disturb" the others who were sleeping. The stun gun allowed the killer to get JB downstairs.

Outside the house where no one could see them.

I already posted about the stun gun.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


Yikes! Glad nobody got hurt.

But in the Ramsey's case, they DID go to Burke's room and did nothing. And they KNEW their daughter was supposedly stolen in the middle of the night.

IF they think the kidnapper might still be in the house, why leave B upstairs alone?

IF they think the kidnapper is gone, the immediate danger has passed so why not ask him right away?

That's too logical for a panic-stricken Ramsey.

It's what an innocent person would do.

JMO

[jmgos1]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
For the people who think the Ramseys killed their daughter: what do you think happened in that house?


TIA

:seeya:

MissO


Remember that this was Christmas day night and there are two children in the home, who really didn't have a whole lot of time to play with their presents. I know if it were my kids they would not have been so eager to go to bed even if a trip was planned for the early morning. When they got home from the Whites Burke went into the livingroom to finish putting together a toy.

Maybe JonBenet was asleep but woke up and went downstairs to see what Burke was doing and play with her presents. Also maybe she was hungry and Burke got the pineapple out for her. JonBenet got a spoon, and having a 6year old grandson, I know he wouldn't know the difference between spoons as long as it was a big one.

Now what happend next... some one upstairs heard them laughing and having a good time as kids will do. They comedown and shoo the kids back upstairs but one child just isn't that tired now because she had had a nap. Take it from there.... jmo

[hohum]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


Wait a minute. I've heard this mentioned before. That the pineapple wasn't noticed until some time way later. I've even heard it was weeks.

Listed on the search warrant dated the 26th, at 8pm, is a bowl, spoon, and glass.

I would imagine that it was known then that there was pineapple in the bowl, no?'

Or is this a different bowl, spoon, and glass?

I would think it's the same. I don't think much attention was paid until the picture was developed and then all of a sudden it was whoa, look at that on the table, a bowl of pineapple and a glass with a tea bag. It was like where did that come from?

[chambord]

Originally posted by Hey Paula
The more I think about this case, the more I've begun to think that the person who killed JonBenet might have been trying to frame Patsy. PR's paint brush was used to make the garrotte, her writing paper and pen to write the ransom letter, and the person even tried to write a little like PR. I recall it being mentioned that some expressions in the letter were one's that Patsy used, and some were contained in a book Patsy was reading. The ransom note was left on the back stairs - the same stairs Patsy used.

IMO

ETA: Hi Hope! :seeya:

Great to see you!


Paula..I am leaning towards a frame up also, but I agree with Ocean that it was directed at John Ramsey, and not Patsy. Who, in her little Boulder world would have felt the need for such revenge. This was a woman who was involved in her social strata, doing the Little Miss circuit, and playing the suburban housewife role. Whose toes could she have possibly stepped on to create such a horrible revenge? But ah, John was out there in the *real* corporate world, and from what I have read, he took no prisoners.

MOO

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Hey Paula
The more I think about this case, the more I've begun to think that the person who killed JonBenet might have been trying to frame Patsy. PR's paint brush was used to make the garrotte, her writing paper and pen to write the ransom letter, and the person even tried to write a little like PR. I recall it being mentioned that some expressions in the letter were one's that Patsy used, and some were contained in a book Patsy was reading. The ransom note was left on the back stairs - the same stairs Patsy used.

IMO

ETA: Hi Hope! :seeya:

Great to see you!

Hi Paula, it's good to see you!

What can I say, I have my theory about this case and yet I see other posters who are dear to me that seem to think differently. That's okay, it wouldn't be a discussion if we all agreed.

I hope you are having a great weekend!


:D

IMO

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I have three small children. I would have awakened him to see if he was really okay and to ask if he heard anything.

JMO

I agree. IIRC, someone checked on him in his bed after finding JB gone, but they just let him sleep? :shrug:

It's questionable.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by LI_Mom


Yikes! Glad nobody got hurt.

But in the Ramsey's case, they DID go to Burke's room and did nothing. And they KNEW their daughter was supposedly stolen in the middle of the night.

IF they think the kidnapper might still be in the house, why leave B upstairs alone?

IF they think the kidnapper is gone, the immediate danger has passed so why not ask him right away?

Thank you so much. Our home was new and we hadn't installed dead bolts but you betcha they were installed that day and I live in a very nice, no crime neighborhood.

Even my experience was terrifying. I knew my brother would never ever want to shoot someone and we had no idea how this man would react. I think the Ramseys just thought it was better not explain all that was happening. I guess they thought it would be just too much for him to understand. Panic makes people do unusual things because the mind just races.

IMO

Ocean

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by LI_Mom
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jerzeegirl
[B]i also often wondered......why would an intruder choose a windowless room, at night when noone can see into a dark basement from a window anyway. If anyone came down there, the intruder would have been cornered.....all the other rooms, there would have been an outlet.

IF the intent was kidnapping, why not grab the kid & use one of the back or side doors as soon as you come downstairs?

IF you wanted to kill her & then make it look like a sexual assault, WHY the long note?

IF the murder was just to hurt John, why waste time writing about a kidnapping instead of gloating about the murder? Why not kill BOTH kids?

None of it makes sense.

Right. None of it makes sense.

If it was kidnapping, the kidnapper would have used the door by the stairs and left a terse note that he brought with him, NOT in his own handwriting.

If it was a sexual sadist, JB would have been taken from the home and NO note would have been written.

If it was to hurt John, you're right, why not kill BOTH kids, especially Burke. John was closest to Burke, Patsy was closest to JB. And why not openly gloat? The person would have already left his calling card, i.e., his handwriting sample. And why not write the note BEFORE entering the house? Why count on finding pad and paper and the time to do it when three people were sleeping upstairs?

An intruder just makes NO sense at all. I agree.

JMO

[hohum]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


They might as well, if you believe they'd use a stun gun that was loud and didn't disable the victim, but made him/her scream very loudly.

JMO

You need to read some more about stun guns. Maybe something other than that Air Taser article you have worn out.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


I agree. IIRC, someone checked on him in his bed after finding JB gone, but they just let him sleep? :shrug:

It's questionable.

Yes, JR says they looked in his room, saw he was sleeping, and let him sleep.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/36.html

It doesn't make sense to me.

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


Wait a minute. I've heard this mentioned before. That the pineapple wasn't noticed until some time way later. I've even heard it was weeks.

Listed on the search warrant dated the 26th, at 8pm, is a bowl, spoon, and glass.

I would imagine that it was known then that there was pineapple in the bowl, no?'

Or is this a different bowl, spoon, and glass?

The police never really had much time to ask the Ramseys at the beginning. They probably were happy to get the dna samples and didn't have much hope of any in depth questions.

Remember, they left the house that afternoon & did not go in for a (somewhat) formal interview until 4 months later.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by hohum


You need to read some more about stun guns. Maybe something other than that Air Taser article you have worn out.

I have. I've written extensively on stun guns. The others did not leave marks even remotely close to the spacing found on JB's body. And, they ALL left indentations. Indentations were not found on JB's body.

The marks on JB's body are more consistent with the snaps on clothing.

No link right now, so...

JMO

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by chambord



Paula..I am leaning towards a frame up also, but I agree with Ocean that it was directed at John Ramsey, and not Patsy. Who, in her little Boulder world would have felt the need for such revenge. This was a woman who was involved in her social strata, doing the Little Miss circuit, and playing the suburban housewife role. Whose toes could she have possibly stepped on to create such a horrible revenge? But ah, John was out there in the *real* corporate world, and from what I have read, he took no prisoners.

MOO

And we all know how powerful the "real" coporate world can be.

IMO

Ocean

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by hohum


I would think it's the same. I don't think much attention was paid until the picture was developed and then all of a sudden it was whoa, look at that on the table, a bowl of pineapple and a glass with a tea bag. It was like where did that come from?

Ah, okay, thanks.

Hindsight at it's finest. Got it!

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I have. I've written extensively on stun guns. The others did not leave marks even remotely close to the spacing found on JB's body. And, they ALL left indentations. Indentations were not found on JB's body.

The marks on JB's body are more consistent with the snaps on clothing.

No link right now, so...

JMO

and how about the small circle mark on her face near her ear. Noone seems to mention how that could have gotten there.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


and how about the small circle mark on her face near her ear. Noone seems to mention how that could have gotten there.

I've read that some experts theorize that was a snap on clothing as well. If you look closely, you'll see there is a tiny mark inside the circle and snaps often have those.

No link now, so...

JMO

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by hohum


That pineapple wasn't even noticed until a picture appeared. Patsy didn't run to the police officer when they arrived at the house saying my gosh check that strange bowl of pineapple on the table. A stranger must have been here. :lol:

And BTW, don't forget about the glass with the teabag in it sitting next to the pineapple.

hohum,
I didn't say "when" the pineapple was noticed, or who noticed it.

I do wonder if that bowl of pineapple was more noticeable though after the autopsy was performed.

IMO

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Right. None of it makes sense.

If it was kidnapping, the kidnapper would have used the door by the stairs and left a terse note that he brought with him, NOT in his own handwriting.

If it was a sexual sadist, JB would have been taken from the home and NO note would have been written.

If it was to hurt John, you're right, why not kill BOTH kids, especially Burke. John was closest to Burke, Patsy was closest to JB. And why not openly gloat? The person would have already left his calling card, i.e., his handwriting sample. And why not write the note BEFORE entering the house? Why count on finding pad and paper and the time to do it when three people were sleeping upstairs?

An intruder just makes NO sense at all. I agree.

JMO

I have to agree with the Federal Judge, imo there is more that points to an intruder.

What we don't know is what his motivations were but he had them and he came calling that night and did it just like HE wanted to do whether it is ever figured out or not he doesnt care. In fact he may look at sites like this and amuse himself with our speculation.

Trying to guess why and how is a riddle that will never be solved unless he becomes like the BTK killer and starts communicating with someone which I highly doubt will happen.

I think he is one smart cookie.

That ransom note was a "catch me if you can" and they never could.

IMO

Ocean

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by chambord


And I find that curious. Thinking back to when my kids were young uns, I would certainly ask, sleep or no sleep, if they knew anything. Not necessarily that Burke was in on anything nefarious, but perhaps, if Jon Benet had mentioned something *odd* to him during the day. My kids were the greatest source of info in those days when I wanted or needed inside info on what was going on in their every day little lives, lol.

Like if she had told Burke she was meeting someone and it was a secret. Or that someone outside had been looking at her funny.

[Will]

Question for either side on the stun gun issue regarding the indentations. While there have been a few deaths related to stun guns, most of the data is from people who survived the experience. Thus, would the marks on JonBenet being post mortem in the pictures make any difference in the nature of those marks?

[samsong]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Right. None of it makes sense.

If it was kidnapping, the kidnapper would have used the door by the stairs and left a terse note that he brought with him, NOT in his own handwriting.

If it was a sexual sadist, JB would have been taken from the home and NO note would have been written.

If it was to hurt John, you're right, why not kill BOTH kids, especially Burke. John was closest to Burke, Patsy was closest to JB. And why not openly gloat? The person would have already left his calling card, i.e., his handwriting sample. And why not write the note BEFORE entering the house? Why count on finding pad and paper and the time to do it when three people were sleeping upstairs?

An intruder just makes NO sense at all. I agree.

JMO

I agree with both of you. That is what has kept this case alive. Each piece of evidence can cut both ways.

One doesn't want to think a family member would do this, but it has happened before. None of it really makes sense.

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by chambord



Paula..I am leaning towards a frame up also, but I agree with Ocean that it was directed at John Ramsey, and not Patsy. Who, in her little Boulder world would have felt the need for such revenge. This was a woman who was involved in her social strata, doing the Little Miss circuit, and playing the suburban housewife role. Whose toes could she have possibly stepped on to create such a horrible revenge? But ah, John was out there in the *real* corporate world, and from what I have read, he took no prisoners.

MOO

Awhile back I watched a movie on Lifetime (it was a true story) about a mother who either murdered, or attempted to murder, a cheerleader, who excelled at what she did, and perceived this girl as posing a threat to her cheerleader daughter. So, the mother acted to remove the competition forever.

We here, above all, know much about the evil some perpetrate upon their fellowmen for the most trivial, shallow and materialistic reasons.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by samsong


I know and practically "spirit like" since they left barely any trace of being there for hours.

Like in the Elizabeth Smart, Danielle van Damm, and Jessica Lunsford cases.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Right. None of it makes sense.

If it was kidnapping, the kidnapper would have used the door by the stairs and left a terse note that he brought with him, NOT in his own handwriting.

If it was a sexual sadist, JB would have been taken from the home and NO note would have been written.

If it was to hurt John, you're right, why not kill BOTH kids, especially Burke. John was closest to Burke, Patsy was closest to JB. And why not openly gloat? The person would have already left his calling card, i.e., his handwriting sample. And why not write the note BEFORE entering the house? Why count on finding pad and paper and the time to do it when three people were sleeping upstairs?

An intruder just makes NO sense at all. I agree.

JMO

What a great post. You touched on all the reasons why this case does not add up to an intruder.


IMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Like in the Elizabeth Smart, Danielle van Damm, and Jessica Lunsford cases.

But they weren't in the house for five, six, seven hours, were they?

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


What a great post. You touched on all the reasons why this case does not add up to an intruder.


IMO

Thanks, Hope. There's a LOT more that doesn't add up to an intruder, but I'll write that later.

I hope you have a great week! :)

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


It's so hard to speculate, MissOtis. It could be anything. I have tended not to believe the bedwetting theory, though.

I think some kind of argument, JB might have fallen and struck her head and in a panic, the Ramseys covered it up.



But, she would have still been alive at that point. They would have killed her to cover up an accident which hadn't killed her. Why not call 911 and say she fell?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


But they weren't in the house for five, six, seven hours, were they?

No, but they got in, found and took a child, and got out without leaving a trace.

[jerzeegirl]

and didnt commit the murder in the house. Those others.....got in and out, alot easier to NOT leave evidence.

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Like in the Elizabeth Smart, Danielle van Damm, and Jessica Lunsford cases.

Yeah, that's why I know it's possible for an intruder to come into a home and not leave a trace.

Only thing different though, is that if an intruder came into the Ramsey home, they would have been all over the place. Coming in from the basement, going upstairs to get JB, and then playing around in the kitchen writting a ransom letter.

I do look at it all from both sides, lol. That's why I'm not firm like some people are on stating 'who did it'.

I don't think it was a Ramsey, but then again, when I post stuff like this, I make myself wonder.:punch:

[TaraCrazyHair]

The simplest part of this case (to me) goes to the timeline

:shrug:

If that doesn't fit -- you question the why not's

And the timeline in this case never fit the story by the Ramsey's

Place the ranson note aside, the garotte aside, the pineapple aside .. etc..

And question the timeline

That is what keeps people (like me) who feel there was no intruder and there was no child molesting killer in the Ramsey home that night, focused on the parents

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Thanks, Hope. There's a LOT more that doesn't add up to an intruder, but I'll write that later.

I hope you have a great week! :)

I will look forward to it.

MissO, I am not avoiding your question regarding theories (well, maybe I am), but It is hard to say what exactly happened although I DO have a theory and hesitate to post it.

Have a nice evening everyone.

:seeya:

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


Hi Paula, it's good to see you!

What can I say, I have my theory about this case and yet I see other posters who are dear to me that seem to think differently. That's okay, it wouldn't be a discussion if we all agreed.

I hope you are having a great weekend!


:D

IMO

Even if we disagree on various cases, I know we will always hold each other in high regard, and respect each other, regardless of our differing opinions.

I hope you had a wonderful holiday weekend!

I've missed posting with you!

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


Yeah, that's why I know it's possible for an intruder to come into a home and not leave a trace.

Only thing different though, is that if an intruder came into the Ramsey home, they would have been all over the place. Coming in from the basement, going upstairs to get JB, and then playing around in the kitchen writting a ransom letter.

I do look at it all from both sides, lol. That's why I'm not firm like some people are on stating 'who did it'.

I don't think it was a Ramsey, but then again, when I post stuff like this, I make myself wonder.:punch:

i hear ya gator....i have these battles with myself all the time.....one minute, intruder....next a ramsey......driving me nutz

[chambord]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Like if she had told Burke she was meeting someone and it was a secret. Or that someone outside had been looking at her funny.


Exactly!! That's why I would have quizzed Burke.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


But, she would have still been alive at that point. They would have killed her to cover up an accident which hadn't killed her. Why not call 911 and say she fell?

If she was not dead after a blow to the head, at 6 years old -- she could say that Mommy hit her

Patsy charged with child abuse? Oh My

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


But, she would have still been alive at that point. They would have killed her to cover up an accident which hadn't killed her. Why not call 911 and say she fell?

Yeah, I don't understand why, if it was any kind of accident, they didn't call 911, even if they wanted to stage how the accident happened. Why go the direct opposite way of killing her, and then setting about to make it look like an intruder, thinking of the sexual torture methods to stage the crime, plus throw in a confusing ransom note.:confused:

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair
The simplest part of this case (to me) goes to the timeline

:shrug:

If that doesn't fit -- you question the why not's

And the timeline in this case never fit the story by the Ramsey's

Place the ranson note aside, the garotte aside, the pineapple aside .. etc..

And question the timeline

That is what keeps people (like me) who feel there was no intruder and there was no child molesting killer in the Ramsey home that night, focused on the parents

Just had to say :seeya: Tara.

Good to see you

:)

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


I will look forward to it.

MissO, I am not avoiding your question regarding theories (well, maybe I am), but It is hard to say what exactly happened although I DO have a theory and hesitate to post it.

Have a nice evening everyone.

:seeya:

Please post your theory, Hope -- I would love to hear it

(:

[chambord]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair
The simplest part of this case (to me) goes to the timeline

:shrug:

If that doesn't fit -- you question the why not's

And the timeline in this case never fit the story by the Ramsey's

Place the ranson note aside, the garotte aside, the pineapple aside .. etc..

And question the timeline

That is what keeps people (like me) who feel there was no intruder and there was no child molesting killer in the Ramsey home that night, focused on the parents


I have to say, coming from YOU< I find your comments intriquing.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by chambord



I have to say, coming from YOU< I find your comments intriquing.

Ummm -- I am almost afraid to ask -- but why does it intrigue you?

(I am a stickler for timelines)

(:

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Even if we disagree on various cases, I know we will always hold each other in high regard, and respect each other, regardless of our differing opinions.

I hope you had a wonderful holiday weekend!

I've missed posting with you!

You know that's true Paula. ;)

I've missed you too.

Nite......

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


Please post your theory, Hope -- I would love to hear it

(:

Yeah, come on, post it. Perfect timing actually, this weekend board will go poof tommorrow, lol. and it will be in the archive bin and forgotten about.:D

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


Yeah, that's why I know it's possible for an intruder to come into a home and not leave a trace.

Only thing different though, is that if an intruder came into the Ramsey home, they would have been all over the place. Coming in from the basement, going upstairs to get JB, and then playing around in the kitchen writing a ransom letter.

I do look at it all from both sides, lol. That's why I'm not firm like some people are on stating 'who did it'.

I don't think it was a Ramsey, but then again, when I post stuff like this, I make myself wonder.:punch:

I think maybe or maybe not, if this home had been much smaller say like a typical one floor dwelling someone "may" have heard something but that place was huge almost 7,000 sf. It leaves many places to not have to worry about running into things and he may have even had a small light that did not illuminate the room but just a tiny beam where he needed to go and who would really see it? They were all separated.

I think it was very doable and quite simple actually. Imo whomever it was already knew the basic layout.

IMO

Ocean

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair
The simplest part of this case (to me) goes to the timeline

:shrug:

If that doesn't fit -- you question the why not's

And the timeline in this case never fit the story by the Ramsey's

Place the ranson note aside, the garotte aside, the pineapple aside .. etc..

And question the timeline

That is what keeps people (like me) who feel there was no intruder and there was no child molesting killer in the Ramsey home that night, focused on the parents

What timeline are you referring to, Tara?

If an intruder/s did, in fact, enter the house through the broken window, while the Ramseys were out, that/those person/s would have had plenty of time to carry out their deed.

If Patsy had killed JonBenet in a fit of rage, the blow to JB's head would have preceeded the asphyxiation, not the other way around.

If Patsy had killed JonBenet, she would have kept the letter concise, as brevity makes it more difficult to detect someone's handwriting.

IMO

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


Just had to say :seeya: Tara.

Good to see you

:)


You as well

:seeya:

Now, about that theroy ................

(:

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


You know that's true Paula. ;)

I've missed you too.

Nite......

Goodnite, friend!

Sweet Dreams!

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


What timeline are you referring to, Tara?

If an intruder/s did, in fact, enter the house through the broken window, while the Ramseys were out, that/those person/s would have had plenty of time to carry out their deed.

If Patsy had killed JonBenet in a fit of rage, the blow to JB's head would have preceeded the asphyxiation, not the other way around.

If Patsy had killed JonBenet, she would have kept the letter concise, as brevity makes it more difficult to detect someone's handwriting.

IMO

The biggest factor of the timeline that has always bothered me is the fact they had a flight to Michigan at 6:30 AM yet the day after Christmas with a 6 & 9 year old to wake up, feed, dress and get in the car .. there is no movement in the household until 5:42 AM

Impossible



:shrug:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by jmgos1



Remember that this was Christmas day night and there are two children in the home, who really didn't have a whole lot of time to play with their presents. I know if it were my kids they would not have been so eager to go to bed even if a trip was planned for the early morning. When they got home from the Whites Burke went into the livingroom to finish putting together a toy.

Maybe JonBenet was asleep but woke up and went downstairs to see what Burke was doing and play with her presents. Also maybe she was hungry and Burke got the pineapple out for her. JonBenet got a spoon, and having a 6year old grandson, I know he wouldn't know the difference between spoons as long as it was a big one.

Now what happend next... some one upstairs heard them laughing and having a good time as kids will do. They comedown and shoo the kids back upstairs but one child just isn't that tired now because she had had a nap. Take it from there.... jmo

I can take it from there. I can even take it through a cover-up. I just can't take it through THIS cover-up. If the cord is considered the cover-up, the cover-up is what ultimately killed JonBenet. Why make the decision to kill her, rather than call 911 and say she fell? And that wasn't sick enough, trouble was gone to to disguise the apparat as a garrotte! And then a ransom note with quotes about beheading. I just can't believe they would be capable of that. I believe they loved that child too much.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


Yeah, come on, post it. Perfect timing actually, this weekend board will go poof tommorrow, lol. and it will be in the archive bin and forgotten about.:D

Okay, if you promise I won't get beat up too much. :)

My theory goes something like this.

The Ramsey's arrive home, and as the other poster stated, the kids were up and about excited for Santa. Patsy was trying to get things ready for the trip, packages still wrapped.....

Burke did have pineapple, and gave JB some, after PR had put it in a bowl.

I see Burke as being the one that did something to JB, and I see Patsy as being in a panic through out the night to cover it up.

There is more, but that's the basics. The parents covered for their son.

IMO

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


I can take it from there. I can even take it through a cover-up. I just can't take it through THIS cover-up. If the cord is considered the cover-up, the cover-up is what ultimately killed JonBenet. Why make the decision to kill her, rather than call 911 and say she fell? And that wasn't sick enough, trouble was gone to to disguise the apparat as a garrotte! And then a ransom note with quotes about beheading. I just can't believe they would be capable of that. I believe they loved that child too much.

Interesting choice of words -- "that child"

Same wording Patsy used in interviews

"We loved that child"

I always found that so cold



:(

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


Okay, if you promise I won't get beat up too much. :)

My theory goes something like this.

The Ramsey's arrive home, and as the other poster stated, the kids were up and about excited for Santa. Patsy was trying to get things ready for the trip, packages still wrapped.....

Burke did have pineapple, and gave JB some, after PR had put it in a bowl.

I see Burke as being the one that did something to JB, and I see Patsy as being in a panic through out the night to cover it up.

There is more, but that's the basics. The parents covered for their son.

IMO

What did this 9 year old scrawny little child do?

IMO

Ocean

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


Ummm -- I am almost afraid to ask -- but why does it intrigue you?

(I am a stickler for timelines)

(:

What about the timeline? The intruder had between 11 pm and 5 am... 6 hrs. to accomplish it. or maybe longer if he was in the home while they were gone. In a regular size house I could understand questions of noise. But this was over 6,000. sq. ft. on 3 levels. The size of 3 homes. No question it could be done. The intruder may have had a key.

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


The biggest factor of the timeline that has always bothered me is the fact they had a flight to Michigan at 6:30 AM yet the day after Christmas with a 6 & 9 year old to wake up, feed, dress and get in the car .. there is no movement in the household until 5:42 AM

Impossible


:shrug:

Is the 5:42AM rise time factual?

There has been so much misinformation spoken and written about this case in the media.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


Okay, if you promise I won't get beat up too much. :)

My theory goes something like this.

The Ramsey's arrive home, and as the other poster stated, the kids were up and about excited for Santa. Patsy was trying to get things ready for the trip, packages still wrapped.....

Burke did have pineapple, and gave JB some, after PR had put it in a bowl.

I see Burke as being the one that did something to JB, and I see Patsy as being in a panic through out the night to cover it up.

There is more, but that's the basics. The parents covered for their son.

IMO

I used to think Burke did something and they covered it up but once he admitted he pretended to be asleep when he really wasn't I tossed it aside

Always figured that once he grew up and was out of the house on his own he would tell the truth as he knew it (if he knew anything)

Then Mom dies and I fear he will now forever hold his piece

[chambord]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


The biggest factor of the timeline that has always bothered me is the fact they had a flight to Michigan at 6:30 AM yet the day after Christmas with a 6 & 9 year old to wake up, feed, dress and get in the car .. there is no movement in the household until 5:42 AM

Impossible



:shrug:


There you go tara....you explained to me exactly what I was looking for as to your hesitation. Your posts during the Peterston case intriqued me as well, so I was curious as to your thoughts on this on as well.:)

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


If she was not dead after a blow to the head, at 6 years old -- she could say that Mommy hit her

Patsy charged with child abuse? Oh My

Hey Tara! :seeya: I just can't imagine her saying, "I know. I'll kill her. I'll strangle her with a cord. Then, I'll make it look like a garrotte. They'll blame it on John, because he once served in the Phillipines. Plus, the sight of it will upset him."

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


Interesting choice of words -- "that child"

Same wording Patsy used in interviews

"We loved that child"

I always found that so cold



:(

Well it is said often by Southerners and it is meant as an endearing word not cold. Through the years I guess we have picked it up from our grandmothers and mothers who do say it often.

IMO

Ocean

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Is the 5:42AM rise time factual?

There has been so much misinformation spoken and written about this case in the media.

The times were precise via the SW affidavits

:shrug:

And as far as I can recall -- never answered by the Ramsey's in interviews

I admitt I have gotten away from this case in the past years until John Karr reactivated my fascination

[chambord]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


Okay, if you promise I won't get beat up too much. :)

My theory goes something like this.

The Ramsey's arrive home, and as the other poster stated, the kids were up and about excited for Santa. Patsy was trying to get things ready for the trip, packages still wrapped.....

Burke did have pineapple, and gave JB some, after PR had put it in a bowl.

I see Burke as being the one that did something to JB, and I see Patsy as being in a panic through out the night to cover it up.

There is more, but that's the basics. The parents covered for their son.

IMO


I just can't go there Hope. IMO, Burke did not have the strength nor fortitude to carry this thru, although for a brief moment or two, I leaned toward him, until I learned of the absolute brutal manner of JB's death. My God, he was only nine years old.

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


Okay, if you promise I won't get beat up too much. :)

My theory goes something like this.

The Ramsey's arrive home, and as the other poster stated, the kids were up and about excited for Santa. Patsy was trying to get things ready for the trip, packages still wrapped.....

Burke did have pineapple, and gave JB some, after PR had put it in a bowl.

I see Burke as being the one that did something to JB, and I see Patsy as being in a panic through out the night to cover it up.

There is more, but that's the basics. The parents covered for their son.

IMO

I won't beat ya up. I'm just curious to what other's think as I have no real theory on what happened that night.

There was a IIRC, 8 year old in my area a while back who beat his little baby Sister to death. With a piece of wood, IIRC. Because she was crying.

So not unheard of, IMO.

But I would think that if Burke did do this, he would have problems as he grew up and tried to keep it a secret. He might have slipped by now and said something, or changed into a monster of a child with a host of problems.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by chambord



There you go tara....you explained to me exactly what I was looking for as to your hesitation. Your posts during the Peterston case intriqued me as well, so I was curious as to your thoughts on this on as well.:)

I will never understand how anyone with children could logically reason this timeline -- even before 9-11 made airports even slower

And I have a feeling that is what always bothered the Boulder PD as well

(Not to mention Mom in the same clothing as the night before although she claimed to go to bed)

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


The times were precise via the SW affidavits

:shrug:

And as far as I can recall -- never answered by the Ramsey's in interviews

I admitt I have gotten away from this case in the past years until John Karr reactivated my fascination

I thought that was around the time Patsy called the BPD. If so, Patsy had likely awoken before then, as she had discovered the note, read it, and probably looked around before calling LE.

IMO

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by chambord

I just can't go there Hope. IMO, Burke did not have the strength nor fortitude to carry this thru, although for a brief moment or two, I leaned toward him, until I learned of the absolute brutal manner of JB's death. My God, he was only nine years old.
Not a big difference, but I believe he was two weeks shy of being 10.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by DixieChick


What about the timeline? The intruder had between 11 pm and 5 am... 6 hrs. to accomplish it. or maybe longer if he was in the home while they were gone. In a regular size house I could understand questions of noise. But this was over 6,000. sq. ft. on 3 levels. The size of 3 homes. No question it could be done. The intruder may have had a key.

Didn't a neighbor say they saw crazy lights coming from the sun room area that night? That sounds like the lights were off and someone may have been using a small pen light.

Im with you to heck with the next morning time line, imo this happened around midnight and he was long gone by 5:42.


IMO

Ocean

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


Interesting choice of words -- "that child"

Same wording Patsy used in interviews

"We loved that child"

I always found that so cold



:(

I did steal it from Patsy. I find the whole pageant thing sickening. Really sickening. And I find Patsy self-centered and over-bearing. But, I think she loved JonBenet. I can't imagine her writing the word 'behead' right after JB had been killed.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


I will never understand how anyone with children could logically reason this timeline -- even before 9-11 made airports even slower

And I have a feeling that is what always bothered the Boulder PD as well

(Not to mention Mom in the same clothing as the night before although she claimed to go to bed)

Was this through a regular airline or were they flying on a corporate jet?

IMO

Ocean

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


Was this through a regular airline or were they flying on a corporate jet?

IMO

Ocean

The ramseys had a plane, they were flying that to their vacation home.

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


I thought that was around the time Patsy called the BPD. If so, Patsy had likely awoken before then, as she had discovered the note, read it, and probably looked around before calling LE.

IMO

Not according to the official documents

She awoke around 5:42, found the note and called the police at 5:52

Not a word about being up for an hour or so beforehand

Not to mention -- you have a 6:30 flight, wouldn't you be up and getting your children up long before then? 45 minutes does not cut it to wake up, clean up, load up and drive, check in and board

No way -- no how

Even if your OJ Simpson

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


The biggest factor of the timeline that has always bothered me is the fact they had a flight to Michigan at 6:30 AM yet the day after Christmas with a 6 & 9 year old to wake up, feed, dress and get in the car .. there is no movement in the household until 5:42 AM

Impossible



:shrug:

Interesting, Tara. As I was reading one of the Ramsey's depo's the other night, I was kinda wondering about the time myself.

At first, I was thinking airport, which would be not nearly enough time, but then I remembered it was a private plane, but still, now that you mention it, that was a short amount of time to get everyone ready and out the door.

Do you know how far away from their house the airport was? I'm questioning it because my FIL is a pilot and the plane and run way is in his back yard, lol.

I know that isn't the case with the Ramsey's but was the plane only 5 minutes away?

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


The ramseys had a plane, they were flying that to their vacation home.


Well heck...........they would get there when they got there. I doubt the pilot would say anything to the CEO for being late.:D

My son is a corporate pilot.......believe me sometimes it is hurry up and wait on the executives to finally arrive and board.

Thanks.

Ocean

[chambord]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


I will never understand how anyone with children could logically reason this timeline -- even before 9-11 made airports even slower

And I have a feeling that is what always bothered the Boulder PD as well

(Not to mention Mom in the same clothing as the night before although she claimed to go to bed)


However IIRC, the Ramsey's were not flying on a commercial airline. The children could have just been transported in their pj's with breakfast served on board. Truthfully, that has happened to me in the past. No biggie.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes



Well heck...........they would get there when they got there. I doubt the pilot would say anything to the CEO for being late.:D

My son is a corporate pilot.......believe me sometimes it is hurry up and wait on the executives to finally arrive and board.

Thanks.

Ocean

john didnt have to answer to a pilot when he got there, he was the pilot.

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


Not according to the official documents

She awoke around 5:42, found the note and called the police at 5:52

Not a word about being up for an hour or so beforehand

Not to mention -- you have a 6:30 flight, wouldn't you be up and getting your children up long before then? 45 minutes does not cut it to wake up, clean up, load up and drive, check in and board

No way -- no how

Even if your OJ Simpson

Tara, timeline is everything in every case.

If the timeline was such that it was impossible, as you suggest, this would have been the core of the case against the Ramseys, and the GJ would have handed down an indictment.


IMO

[chambord]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Not a big difference, but I believe he was two weeks shy of being 10.


Hi Gregor!!:seeya: Join in the discussion.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


john didn't have to answer to a pilot when he got there, he was the pilot.

WOW! No wonder they didn't have to be there right on time. He was in the pilot seat. I didn't know he was a pilot too!

So Patsy knew the drill.......lol they would get there when they got there. Plane wasn't leaving without them but just sitting on the tarmac waiting.

IMO

Ocean

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


WOW! No wonder they didn't have to be there right on time. He was in the pilot seat. I didn't know he was a pilot too!

So Patsy knew the drill.......lol they would get there when they got there. Plane wasn't leaving without them but just sitting on the tarmac waiting.

IMO

Ocean

patsy was asked that question during her first interview, if the flight time was flexible, and she said yes it was. Ill find the link if you want (yes even though its 1am lol)

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Tara, timeline is everything in every case.

If the timeline was such that it was impossible, as you suggest, this would have been the core of the case against the Ramseys, and the GJ would have handed down an indictment.


IMO

How long did the GJ have this case? Did they take it to a GJ more than once?

Man when a GJ wont indict there simply is nothing and I mean nothing there imo.

Nice to see you Paula!

IMO

Ocean

[DixieChick]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


The biggest factor of the timeline that has always bothered me is the fact they had a flight to Michigan at 6:30 AM yet the day after Christmas with a 6 & 9 year old to wake up, feed, dress and get in the car .. there is no movement in the household until 5:42 AM

Impossible



:shrug:

They were up at 5:00. Taking their own chartered private plane.
It wouldn't take off until they arrived.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


patsy was asked that question during her first interview, if the flight time was flexible, and she said yes it was. Ill find the link if you want (yes even though its 1am lol)

No, I fully believe you as it makes very good sense too why the time line was really flexible.

Thank you for letting me know. It has been awhile since I have read up on the JBR case.

IMO

Ocean:seeya:

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


Interesting, Tara. As I was reading one of the Ramsey's depo's the other night, I was kinda wondering about the time myself.

At first, I was thinking airport, which would be not nearly enough time, but then I remembered it was a private plane, but still, now that you mention it, that was a short amount of time to get everyone ready and out the door.

Do you know how far away from their house the airport was? I'm questioning it because my FIL is a pilot and the plane and run way is in his back yard, lol.

I know that isn't the case with the Ramsey's but was the plane only 5 minutes away?

Jefferson County Airport was 20 minutes away

And Corporate or not -- there is a flight plan

Board is crawling for me tonight (seems typical since the update -- grrr) so will call it a night

Good to see old faces tonight!!


I will have to unlurk more often

:tongue:


:seeya:

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


How long did the GJ have this case? Did they take it to a GJ more than once?

Man when a GJ wont indict there simply is nothing and I mean nothing there imo.

Nice to see you Paula!

IMO

Ocean

Hi Ocean!

IIRC, the GJ had this case for a year, and couldn't bring forth an indictment against the Ramseys! That says a lot, as they didn't find probable cause to indict.

Nice to see you too. I hope you had a great holiday weekend!

[msgatorslayer]

Night sleuthers.

Getting late on the East coast.:seeya:

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


john didnt have to answer to a pilot when he got there, he was the pilot.

Mike Archuleta (sp) was the pilot I thought?

[TaraCrazyHair]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Hi Ocean!

IIRC, the GJ had this case for a year, and couldn't bring forth an indictment against the Ramseys! That says a lot, as they didn't find probable cause to indict.

Nice to see you too. I hope you had a great holiday weekend!

I will never understand how a GJ who can can indict a ham sandwich refused to indict a Dagwood

:shrug:

Night

(:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Good night, all! Happy Labor Day! Thanks for all the wonderful posts.

:seeya:

Miss Otis

[theal2]

I've always thought it curious that Patsy R had the same clothes on, she wore to the party the night before - party clothes, when they were going to take a plane trip the next morning.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Hi Ocean!

IIRC, the GJ had this case for a year, and couldn't bring forth an indictment against the Ramseys! That says a lot, as they didn't find probable cause to indict.

Nice to see you too. I hope you had a great holiday weekend!

I did thank you. Family reunions Saturday and Sunday so have pretty much chilled today! lol

Hope you have a lovely one too.

If a GJ wont indict then that says a lot right there, you are right and we are almost at 10 years and they still have no clue who murdered JB.

I think this guy has not even been under the radar.

Someone they would least suspect.

IMO

Ocean

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


Mike Archuleta (sp) was the pilot I thought?

In patsys interview, she says John was going to be flying, thats why he didnt want to drink really at the whites and get to sleep early. He even went to the plane on xmas day to checklist everything.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Good night, all! Happy Labor Day! Thanks for all the wonderful posts.

:seeya:

Miss Otis



Im turning in too.........see all of you tomorrow.

Ocean:seeya:

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


Jefferson County Airport was 20 minutes away

And Corporate or not -- there is a flight plan

Board is crawling for me tonight (seems typical since the update -- grrr) so will call it a night

Good to see old faces tonight!!


I will have to unlurk more often

:tongue:


:seeya:

Yes, my husband and I fly in a private plane quite often and you do have to file a flight plan and get clearance to take off at a certain time. You can't just leave whenever you feel like it.

Patsy even says she spent 20-30 minutes in the bathroom after she got up, making the timeline even more implusible.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

[Susan43]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


Not according to the official documents

She awoke around 5:42, found the note and called the police at 5:52

Not a word about being up for an hour or so beforehand

Not to mention -- you have a 6:30 flight, wouldn't you be up and getting your children up long before then? 45 minutes does not cut it to wake up, clean up, load up and drive, check in and board

No way -- no how

Even if your OJ Simpson

Just out of curiousity. Do you think that the CTV crime library has the facts wrong?

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


I will never understand how a GJ who can can indict a ham sandwich refused to indict a Dagwood

:shrug:

Night

(:

LOL!

Tara,

I think there was more evidence pointing to an intruder than there was pointing to the Ramseys. That's probably why they refused to indict the parents.

Goodnite!

It was nice to see you! I hope you post more often!

[sturetroll]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


LOL!

Tara,

I think there was more evidence pointing to an intruder than there was pointing to the Ramseys. That's probably why they refused to indict the parents.

Goodnite!

It was nice to see you! I hope you post more often! There is no intruder.. NONE...

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by sturetroll
There is no intruder.. NONE...

I agree. The more I read the official transcripts, the more I learn, the more I'm sure there was NO intruder...NONE.

You are exactly right.

JMO

[sturetroll]

One blood-spot in JonBenets underwear means nothing. Some guy bleed a little spot, supposed to be mingled with saliva: Look for a guy with bad, bleeding tooth. This guy must have sneezed.. Could be in the factory where this guy packed underwear.. God knows..

[Will]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Yes, my husband and I fly in a private plane quite often and you do have to file a flight plan and get clearance to take off at a certain time. You can't just leave whenever you feel like it.

Patsy even says she spent 20-30 minutes in the bathroom after she got up, making the timeline even more implusible.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm You are overlooking one detail. John Ramsay didn't fly in a bug smasher. He had a pilot, who would have been the person to file the flight plan and take care of the details.

[Regina.Lampert]

Originally posted by TaraCrazyHair


I will never understand how a GJ who can can indict a ham sandwich refused to indict a Dagwood

:shrug:

Night

(: Perhaps if you read up about the political implications swirling about this case and the fact that the DA did not want an indictment you'd understand better. IMO.

[MsSterious]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I agree. The more I read the official transcripts, the more I learn, the more I'm sure there was NO intruder...NONE.

You are exactly right.

JMO

I agree. The Ramsey's launched a major PR campaign, imo. But the evidence still points to them.

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by Regina.Lampert
Perhaps if you read up about the political implications swirling about this case and the fact that the DA did not want an indictment you'd understand better. IMO.

According to the gospel of Steve Thomas.:rolleyes:

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I agree. The more I read the official transcripts, the more I learn, the more I'm sure there was NO intruder...NONE.

You are exactly right.

JMO

What "official transcripts"?

[MsSterious]

Just the other way around. An intruder would have kept it brief, the bogus ransom note, while an insider would have all the time in the world. jmo

[MsSterious]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


There is no indication that there has ever been any abuse by either of the Ramseys - and there was a total of five children in that family. Why would Patsy revert to abuse on Christmas Day?


Motive isn't a necessary component of a crime. Who knows what sets people off. :shrug: She could have been completely stressed out and short tempered that day.

[MsSterious]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


Motive and historical behavior are two different things.

They had just had dinner with their friends and then dropped off baskets to two other friends. Doesn't sound like they were stressed to me. JMO

Holiday time is stressful for many people. You have no way of knowing whether Patsy was stressed or not. And there are many instances where one child is singled out. Who knows? You don't, your guess is as good as mine. jmo
Did the young women who drowned her two sons beat them before? abuse them? videos of a loving mom, so??
I think in Ramsey case, involuntary manslaughter, and a cover up. jmo