Two Ramsey Questions [Archive] - Page 2 - Crime Library Message Boards

Hopeintown

09-04-2006, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by hohum

Remember she was shot twice with the stun gun.

That's only your opinion of course, it has not been proven.

What I found interesting in reading back a few posts, is the transcript about the Barbie nightgown.

Why would JB have had a nightgown under her pillow (line 10)? It seems odd to me. Was she hiding it for some reason?

IMO

21 TOM HANEY: This is the pink -- excuse me --

22 the pink item that again is in a plastic bag where the

23 photo was taken.

24 PATSY RAMSEY: That is her (inaudible). Why

25 was that there?

0383

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

13 TOM HANEY: Where would this particular --

14 well, let me back up.

15 Does this item have some particular

16 significance?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.

18 TOM HANEY: How many nightgowns did she have?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: A lot.

20 TOM HANEY: Twenty, 30?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 10 or so.

22 TOM HANEY: Did this one have some particular

23 significance?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember who gave it to

0384

1 her?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

3 TOM HANEY: Do you remember whether you got

4 it for her? Was it a gift.

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God, it might --

6 TOM HANEY: Take some time because this is --

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Is this the only

8 picture we have of this?

9 TOM HANEY: Correct. The only one here

10 today.

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm thinking of a Barbie

12 nightgown that had a big face of Barbie.

13 TRIP DEMUTH: It has a plastic over it, so

14 there is some glare there. You see the plastic.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah; right. What I'm saying,

16 I'm -- I remember a Barbie nightgown with a picture,

17 big picture of the head of Barbie on it. So I am not

18 quite sure this is her -- you know, one that she had.

19 TOM HANEY: Okay. You know, it appears --

20 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under

21 there.

22 TOM HANEY: It appears from the waist down

23 you can see that much, but from the waist up, because

24 of the plastic, there is a flash and the reflection

25 that is washed out.

0385

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The nightgowns were

2 kept in the bathroom, in her bathroom in the side

3 drawer there. Her pajamas were there.

4 TOM HANEY: All of them?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Unless they were in the dirty

6 clothes.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htm

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by Pruddennce

no problem! I did find this:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Legal%20Documents

12/26/06 search warrant

not sure how valid this document is (linked from boulder news archives) but if it is, this is Det Arndt's first mistake:

"At approximately 1300 hours Detective Arndt asked John Ramsey, Fleet (friend of the family, and John Fernie to check the interior of the residence for any sign of JonBenet"

she did not assign someone from LE to go around with JR....she allowed him and family friends to 'search' unescorted? thats not securing 'the scene' IMO...

ps...the affidavit refers to Det A's observation of the garland in her hair...but that never makes it to the official autopsy findings.

best regards,
Pru

Thank you. :)

The BPD seems to have made many, many mistakes. I think their first mistake was to "assume" the note was correct and that it was a kidnapping. They should have known someone (either in the family or an intruder, doesn't matter from the standpoint of how the police should have acted) could have killed JB and left her in the house or was even still in the house himself with her.

Doesn't matter. Whether JB was there or not, the house was still a crime scene and should have been secured immediately.

I found this:

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/35.html

It clears up three things:

1. Patsy says John picked up the note.

2. Patsy says she only read the first few lines of the note before calling 911.

3. She says JB usually wore her hair in a ponytail to bed, but she doesn't say whether or not she put it in one that night (not that I saw).

I can believe the BPD didn't test the note properly for fingerprints, but it bothers me that Patsy said she didn't read the note through, yet when the 911 operator asked her if it was signed, she replied that it was, with "S.B.T.C. Victory."

Of course, she could have been reading from the note at that point, but in that case, why not say, "Victory! S.B.T.C.," since that's what the note said? She says John did not read the rest of the note until the police arrived (or at least after the 911 call - she's not specific).

Okay, reading a little further, she does say that John was reading the note when she made the 911 call. But still, if you've listened to the 911 call, she doesn't have to ask John if it's signed. She answers immediately.

I just find that odd. Might mean something. Might not mean anything. I just find it odd she didn't have to ask John, but answered the 911 operator immediately.

Well, near the end of the interview, she says she looked to see who signed the note before the first police officer arrived, but she doesn't say she did it before the 911 call.

I also find it odd that a poster said there were twenty-two keys to the house "out there" but John had to break a window to get in when he lost his key. I don't understand why he didn't call someone with a key. Instead, according to Patsy, he called her in Michigan to come home to Boulder.

Reading the interview, I felt sorry for Patsy.

All that isn't verified in her interview is...

JMO

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

I've heard it suggested (TV again) that one of the friends who came over may have gotten the pineapple out.

Their fingerprints would have most likely been on the bowl. Only Burke's and Patsy's were on the bowl.

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Very interesting, Angelina. Thanks for posting this. I am reading PMPT at the moment. It states that the FBI, also, thought the sexual aspects of this crime were staged.

If you read the police interview with Patsy (I posted the link a post or two up), they also tell her that the FBI says the sexual aspects of the crime were staged.

Here's the link again:

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/35.html

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

I haven't a clue on this. Not a clue. lol

Regarding the stun gun, I know this source is "just another message board," but they are posting something from Stephen Tuttle, a representative of Air Taser, a maker of stun guns.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/35.html

You have to scroll down a little to find it.

According to Tuttle, a stun gun (in 1996) was very loud, it never left the kind of marks found on JB that Air Taser saw (I suppose in autopsy photos), stun guns in 1996 were only seven watts and the person could still scream, kick, squirm, etc., there would have been indentations in the skin, the use of the stun gun would have caused so much pain the person would have screamed.

Now, when I posted this before, one poster told me that NO stun gun mfg. would say a stun gun could be responsible, but I think Air Taser is being truthful. What purpose would it serve them to lie? They didn't commit the murder and independent evaluations of stun guns could be conducted very easily. I hope they were.

Hopeintown

09-04-2006, 02:32 AM

In reading the transcripts, I questioned why PR said JB had a nightgown under her pillow. If I am understanding the transcripts correctly, PR is saying the nightgown that was found under the pillow was the one JB wore from the night of the 24th (Christmas Eve) However, when reading another transcript PR says JB was wearing something totally different Christmas morning.

IMO

PR: Well, we went down the stairs and passed out Christmas presents.

TT: About how long did it take you to pass out Christmas presents? I know you talked about how you did it kind of slowly...

PR: Yeah

TT: (inaudible)

PR: Right

TT: About how long did that take?

PR: I don't know. An hour, maybe.

TT: Okay, um...

PR: I mean to pass them out and opening them. I try to get every boy to take turns, you know. Of course their piles are bigger than my pile so...

TT: Um hum

PR: ... they open two or three and then I open one.

TT: Okay

PR: ... just, you know

TT: Okay

PR: cause I take so long to open mine.

TT: You want to savor the moment for a little bit.

PR: Right. Um hum

TT: What was John wearing when you guys came downstairs that day? What kind of clothing was he wearing?

PR: His pajamas and his robe, probably.

TT: Okay. What were you wearing that day?

PR: Pajamas and my robe.

TT: Didn't get cleaned up or showered or anything like that?

PR: No, no, no, no, kids won't let you do that.

TT: Alrighty. Um, what, what are the kids wearing?

PR: Pajamas

TT: OK. What kind of pajamas does Burke normally wear to bed?

PR: Oh, you know, cotton shirt and pants.

TT: Okay

PR: knit kind of stuff

TT: Okay. Do you remember what color pajamas he was wearing that day?

PR: That he was wearing?

TT: Um hum

PR: No, not exactly

TT: Okay. How about JonBenét? What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink, little kind of insulated underwear, sort of...

TT: tops and bottoms?

PR tops and bottoms, you know.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/35.html

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htm

candykisses

09-04-2006, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin
Just think - your baby girl is dead - and you have to answer questions like the ones above. I don't think some people have ever tried to put themselves in Patsy's & John's place. JMO

I am blown away by some of this and pray I never have to remember what everyone in my house had on in the AM. WOW.

I have seen posters give another mother of a missing young woman so MUCH LEEWAY in her RECENT MEMORY, but yet they are so DEMANDING of PATSY and JOHN.

There is only one thing I am comfortable with in this case and that is now that mother and child have sadly been reuinited in a better place where there is no pain and ugliness like this.

RIP PATSY AND JON BENET.:rose:

aproudmom

09-04-2006, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by hohum

I think you may be right and it makes me so mad. :flamemad:

So many brilliant minds in this world and the case is still a mystery. There are clues in there somewhere that no one has connected, I'm sure of it. There is no perfect crime. I'm still hoping for justice. Fingers crossed.

I totally agree with you. I just hope the LE has not screwed this up so bad that it will never be solved.
I have read so many interviews of the Ramseys and the one time Steve Thomas and I have to say IMO the Ramseys did not do it. Steve Thomas refussed to look into any other leads unless it had to do with Patsy.

I encourage everyone to read the depositions of

Steve Thomas Lead Det. who resigned when if found out he was getting ready to be caught for leaking info about the case to 2or 3 tabloids...He is nothing but a liar..and makes me sick.

Patsy Ramsy

John Ramsy

I really learned alot about how the family was treated.
This case was messed up from day one
I don't care if there is a ransom note the cops should have kept everyone out of that house and they should have done all the searches instead of asking John to go look thru the house...please.
This was a crime that happened in the home and they allowed people to come in and out and possibly ruining evidence.

I pray they find the person who did this but I think it may be to long and after this Karr thing the DA won't want to mess up again..

JMO

froggy

09-04-2006, 09:04 AM

:rolleyes:

Isn't it time everybody went back to sleep over the Ramsey case. Give us a break :shrug: Move on until next time!!!

candykisses

09-04-2006, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

I agree with what you said. With regard to Mary Lacy - IMO she did what she thought she should do. I don't have a problem with that - and I hope it doesn't stop her from looking at any other leads that come in. I think Ms. Lacy was in a catch 22 situation - she would have received criticism regardless of the decision she made. JMO

Really, can you even begin to imagine what would have happened had Dan Abrams uncovered a confession and no action?????

She would have been crucified IMO. :(

aproudmom

09-04-2006, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Notnathanhecht

Thanks. I read it when it came out. Still haven't changed my mind. My opinion was not influenced by any tabloids, just by reading about the case and observing Patsy very carefully.

May I ask what you have read..because there is alot of lies that were given to the American people by the BPD and Lead Det. Steve Thomas to newspapers and tabloids. Thomas did not resign because of the case he resigned because they were getting ready to find out he was a secret source leaking information to Tabloids. And that came out of his mouth under oath in a deposition. He also copied over 200 pages of stuff about the murder BEFORE by law he had to turn everything in to the BPD. And once again that is his words. He knew he was writing a book and he made money off of little JonBenet's murder. He sickens me.

I am not even trying to change your opinion or anyone elses I just find it sad that some judge people before they even investigate the truth thereself first. I just hope those who have only looked at the Ramsey's and Burke have really looked into all the public documents and all the misconduct of the BPD..This happens everyday in America when young cops and Det just want to solve a case so they put on blinders and deny to look at anyone else. And I am saying only a few I totally support our Police and the danger they are in everytime they go to work.

BUT it is JMO You have yours and I have mine.

aproudmom

09-04-2006, 09:35 AM

To those of you who wish to hear some of the truth you may want to read this. It cleared alot up for me.
Dep. of Steve Thomas. It is very long but you can see that they did not test everyone or check into all the leads..He refussed to. He screwed this case up.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin
Just think - your baby girl is dead - and you have to answer questions like the ones above. I don't think some people have ever tried to put themselves in Patsy's & John's place. JMO

Hi roseyredrobin,
I began reading PMPT this weekend and I can only do so in increments because for me, the beginning is pretty hard to take. I realize I may be getting overly emotional about it but I have 3 little granddaughters and the parts where people descibe JonBenet just get right to my heart. I love reading books like this, that are a very in-depth description of what took place and putting myself in Patsy's place is easy,intellectually..yet excrutiatingly difficult emotionally! I will contain myself and read on before I can comment on the detectives and the DA's office, etc.

hohum

09-04-2006, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by aproudmom

I am not even trying to change your opinion or anyone elses I just find it sad that some judge people before they even investigate the truth thereself first.

Kind of like Steve Thomas.

hohum

09-04-2006, 10:19 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sunsplashed
[B]

Now, when I posted this before, one poster told me that NO stun gun mfg. would say a stun gun could be responsible [B]

Kudos to that poster. The association with the Ramsey case would be terrible publicity for Air Taser so they were going to do everything possible to separate themselves from the stun gun theory.

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 10:27 AM

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

I agree. Anyone (well, most anyone) who has every had children/grandchildren can put themselves in Patsy's place. I think the fact that her son Burke nor her step-children have ever said anything unkind about Patsy says a lot for the kind of mother she was. JMO

I was looking at some of the message boards devoted to this case last night. People have really done some fantastic research over the years. I do find some of the Ramsey's behavior and statements after the fact odd. It does appear that something happened in that house between the time JB went to bed and the crime in the basement. But it always, for me, comes back to the garrotte. It is a long way from knocking a child across the room in a rage to a garrotte. I just can't see it. People try to disguise these things by staging a fall. They don't put a garrotte around their child's throat. And JonBenet was alive when that garrotte was put on.

MOO

hohum

09-04-2006, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin
I seem to be experiencing mental-pause this morning, but wasn't it stated that the person who used the garrote had to be looking in JonBenet's face as they did it?

Yes. Staring right into her face. Cruel and unusual punishment for a bed wetting, as some like to put forth.

Athena

09-04-2006, 10:59 AM

Athena

09-04-2006, 11:07 AM

What the heck???? I have no idea how those posts were duplicated. And I just posted under the post referencing the garrote and it's not there???? Strange.

Athena

09-04-2006, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

Duplication is ok - especially when you're making a very valid point. :)

I managed to delete most of them but timed out on the last one. :shrug:

Kind of annoyed because I have to repost my response to the garrote point. LOL

Athena

09-04-2006, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by aproudmom
To those of you who wish to hear some of the truth you may want to read this. It cleared alot up for me.
Dep. of Steve Thomas. It is very long but you can see that they did not test everyone or check into all the leads..He refussed to. He screwed this case up.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm

It is an eye-opener. I actually stayed late at work Wed night to print out all 262 pages so I could really read it. Incredible! jmo

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Athena

LOL -- So there was pineapple in the bowl or was it empty? I don't know.

This case has so many twists and turns. :confused:

Yeah, there's pics of it on the net. There was pineapple in the bowl.

Here's a scenario I'm just throwing in here. A horrible crime has happened. Your child is dead. And then you have detectives questioning you about anything and EVERYTHING.

What if the Ramsey's simply didn't remember anything about the pineapple and maybe later on they did, but would never bring it up because they were already under suspicion?:shrug:

Athena

09-04-2006, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

I was looking at some of the message boards devoted to this case last night. People have really done some fantastic research over the years. I do find some of the Ramsey's behavior and statements after the fact odd. It does appear that something happened in that house between the time JB went to bed and the crime in the basement. But it always, for me, comes back to the garrotte. It is a long way from knocking a child across the room in a rage to a garrotte. I just can't see it. People try to disguise these things by staging a fall. They don't put a garrotte around their child's throat. And JonBenet was alive when that garrotte was put on.

MOO

That is one of the huge pieces of evidence that led me to believe the Ramseys did not have anything to do with this. Although I realize parents do kill their children -- none that I'm aware of has been this horrific. This, IMO, was cold, calculated and had to be committed by a sick, perverted person. This was NOT a rage killing such as in the MacDonald case. There is nothing in the Ramsey's history that could lead me to believe they could torture, strangle and crack her skull open. The other thing that bothered me were the words in the message such as "beheaded" and "execution". I cannot imagine a parent writing that after just killing their child. No way!! jmo

Athena

09-04-2006, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer

Yeah, there's pics of it on the net. There was pineapple in the bowl.

Here's a scenario I'm just throwing in here. A horrible crime has happened. Your child is dead. And then you have detectives questioning you about anything and EVERYTHING.

What if the Ramsey's simply didn't remember anything about the pineapple and maybe later on they did, but would never bring it up because they were already under suspicion?:shrug:

Quite possible. I imagine being under shock and stress you don't even remember what you said and knowing they were the ONLY suspects. How traumatic!

Not that this is any way parallell, but I do not remember everything I did and said the day I saw the second plane hit the WTC and just stood there in shock until someone from my office saw me and pulled me away and hugged me. I could not move and just started crying hysterically.

I have never done anything like that before in my life but I had never been as scared as that moment in my life before either. I really thought I was never going to see my family again. I cannot even imagine what I would be like if something happened to one of my children. :(

Hopeintown

09-04-2006, 11:25 AM

I'm really sorry, but this case has absolutely nothing to do with any other case that I have posted about in the past. It has always bothered me that this case remains unsolved as I do believe JonBenet has a right to justice just as any other victim of crime does.

The question I posed had nothing to do with anything Steve Thomas may have written either, as I have never read his book. I was simply reading a portion of a transcript another poster had posted and thought it odd that JonBenet would have a nightgown under her pillow.

As Far as Patsy Ramsey's "memory" goes, why would she not remember what pajamas her children had on Christmas morning? after all, during the interview she did say she likes to delay time when the children open their presents. I can relate to that. You don't want it all over in 5 minutes. Also, they had breakfast before getting dressed sometime that morning.

I just questioned why JonBenet had a nightgown under her pillow, and why Patsy Ramsey says in one interview JonBenet was wearing a nightgown on the 24th, and in another she says she wore two piece insulated underwear.

IMO

PR: Well, we went down the stairs and passed out Christmas presents.

TT: About how long did it take you to pass out Christmas presents? I know you talked about how you did it kind of slowly...

PR: Yeah

TT: (inaudible)

PR: Right

TT: About how long did that take?

PR: I don't know. An hour, maybe.

TT: Okay, um...

PR: I mean to pass them out and opening them. I try to get every boy to take turns, you know. Of course their piles are bigger than my pile so...

TT: Um hum

PR: ... they open two or three and then I open one.

TT: Okay

PR: ... just, you know

TT: Okay

PR: cause I take so long to open mine.

TT: You want to savor the moment for a little bit.

PR: Right. Um hum

TT: What was John wearing when you guys came downstairs that day? What kind of clothing was he wearing?

PR: His pajamas and his robe, probably.

TT: Okay. What were you wearing that day?

PR: Pajamas and my robe.

TT: Didn't get cleaned up or showered or anything like that?

PR: No, no, no, no, kids won't let you do that.

TT: Alrighty. Um, what, what are the kids wearing?

PR: Pajamas

TT: OK. What kind of pajamas does Burke normally wear to bed?

PR: Oh, you know, cotton shirt and pants.

TT: Okay

PR: knit kind of stuff

TT: Okay. Do you remember what color pajamas he was wearing that day?

PR: That he was wearing?

TT: Um hum

PR: No, not exactly

TT: Okay. How about JonBenét? What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink, little kind of insulated underwear, sort of...

TT: tops and bottoms?

PR tops and bottoms, you know.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/35.html

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htm

hohum

09-04-2006, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

'morning, hohum :seeya:

And a good morning to you. :seeya:

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by Athena

That is one of the huge pieces of evidence that led me to believe the Ramseys did not have anything to do with this. Although I realize parents do kill their children -- none that I'm aware of has been this horrific. This, IMO, was cold, calculated and had to be committed by a sick, perverted person. This was NOT a rage killing such as in the MacDonald case. There is nothing in the Ramsey's history that could lead me to believe they could torture, strangle and crack her skull open. The other thing that bothered me were the words in the message such as "beheaded" and "execution". I cannot imagine a parent writing that after just killing their child. No way!! jmo

It is one of many things that point me away from the Ramseys. Even the experts say this is not the way parents murder their children. As you said it is usually done in a fit of rage and if there is any coverup it is said the parents are claiming the child fell and had an accident.

If the ransom note was written by the Ramseys then imo they would have seen to it that she had been removed from the home far away before calling the police. It makes no logical sense they take all that time to write this novelish note and leave the victim in the home. (Imo the killer knew it would not make sense, a riddle no one could figure out)

There is nothing at all that I can see that shows me that the Ramseys ever harmed their daughter before or when this happened.

Whomever this was ...imo, was in no hurry, just methodically completing his planned crime and it worked. Not only did it take their precious daughter away from them.......it brought down John Ramsey and all of his other dreams. IMO that is what this killer wanted..........full lasting revenge. This killer wanted to change ever facet of JRs life and did he ever.

I think he is very intelligent and diabolical and put much aforethought into his crime.

IMO

Ocean

Athena

09-04-2006, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Hopeintown
I'm really sorry, but this case has absolutely nothing to do with any other case that I have posted about in the past. It has always bothered me that this case remains unsolved as I do believe JonBenet has a right to justice just as any other victim of crime does.

The question I posed had nothing to do with anything Steve Thomas may have written either, as I have never read his book. I was simply reading a portion of a transcript another poster had posted and thought it odd that JonBenet would have a nightgown under her pillow.

As Far as Patsy Ramsey's "memory" goes, why would she not remember what pajamas her children had on Christmas morning? after all, during the interview she did say she likes to delay time when the children open their presents. I can relate to that. You don't want it all over in 5 minutes. Also, they had breakfast before getting dressed sometime that morning.

I just questioned why JonBenet had a nightgown under her pillow, and why Patsy Ramsey says in one interview JonBenet was wearing a nightgown on the 24th, and in another she says she wore two piece insulated underwear.

IMO

<snip>

She was talking about two different nights. The first night was Christmas EVE and here is the next few lines from the transcript and the night she was killed was Christmas NIGHT. This is exactly the reason posts should not be copied from other forums. JMHO

TT: Okay, how about JonBenet. What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear sort of . . .

TT: Tops and bottoms.

PR: Tops and bottoms, you know.

TT: Okay. Take you back how to open presents between seven, 7:30, what did you guys do after you open the presents up.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

Cont'd

19 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not wear it

20 Christmas night, you know.

21 THOMAS HANEY: So when you put her

22 to bed, on Christmas night, do you recall, would

23 that or could that have been in the bed?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: It could have been

25 under the pillow or something, you know.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

hohum

09-04-2006, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer

What if the Ramsey's simply didn't remember anything about the pineapple and maybe later on they did, but would never bring it up because they were already under suspicion?:shrug:

I don't think my memory would be very good about much of anything after the trauma of having my child murdered. Yet people continue to pound home the point that Patsy should have remembered every detail. :shrug:

chambord

09-04-2006, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

It is one of many things that point me away from the Ramseys. Even the experts say this is not the way parents murder their children. As you said it is usually done in a fit of rage and if there is any coverup it is said the parents are claiming the child fell and had an accident.

If the ransom note was written by the Ramseys then imo they would have seen to it that she had been removed from the home far away before calling the police. It makes no logical sense they take all that time to write this novelish note and leave the victim in the home. (Imo the killer knew it would not make sense, a riddle no one could figure out)

There is nothing at all that I can see that shows me that the Ramseys ever harmed their daughter before or when this happened.

Whomever this was ...imo, was in no hurry, just methodically completing his planned crime and it worked. Not only did it take their precious daughter away from them.......it brought down John Ramsey and all of his other dreams. IMO that is what this killer wanted..........full lasting revenge. This killer wanted to change ever facet of JRs life and did he ever.

I think he is very intelligent and diabolical and put much aforethought into his crime.

IMO

Ocean

Interesting point Ocean, one that never occured to me before, "revenge on John Ramsey". Hmm, I wonder if he has given this any thought, who were his enemies, who hated him so horribly.

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by hohum

I don't think my memory would be very good about much of anything after the trauma of having my child murdered. Yet people continue to pound home the point that Patsy should have remembered every detail. :shrug:

Precisely...no wonder John seemed "in a daze"...for Pete's sake! I think the shock of such a tragedy sort of brings one close to temporary insanity in my book.

Athena

09-04-2006, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by hohum

Yes. Staring right into her face. Cruel and unusual punishment for a bed wetting, as some like to put forth.

Bed-wetting? Another innuendo/falsehood spread by ST. What I found fascinating as well was the depo by Steve Thomas -- I printed out all 262 pages -- the sheets were not even collected until 7-10 days later; there is no evidence that they were ever tested; the alleged "creantine" found on the sheets were "rumor" and Steve Thomas had no first-hand knowledge of the sheets because was not assigned to the case until two days later :shrug:

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 11:47 AM

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by chambord

Interesting point Ocean, one that never occurred to me before, "revenge on John Ramsey". Hmm, I wonder if he has given this any thought, who were his enemies, who hated him so horribly.

I think this person has crossed paths with John and is in his league or status. He is not some seedy bum sitting somewhere. I am sure in the corporate world many things really turn into personal vendettas and when that happens sometimes......vengence can turn into evil.

See even the ransom note left behind was another way of twisting the Ramseys in the wind. For fleeting moments which turned into hours they could have hope that she was just taken not dead somewhere but he (the killer) knew that and felt such control that he knew that was going to change right in front of their eyes and they would have to live with those haunting memories of what he had done to their little girl and how they had seen their little girl.

I think he is highly educated, very unassuming, going about his daily routine. Imo he is a loner probably not married. To me he is a guy that "nobody notices" and he likes it that way.

IMO

Ocean

Hopeintown

09-04-2006, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Athena

She was talking about two different nights. The first night was Christmas EVE and here is the next few lines from the transcript and the night she was killed was Christmas NIGHT. This is exactly the reason posts should not be copied from other forums. JMHO

TT: Okay, how about JonBenet. What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear sort of . . .

TT: Tops and bottoms.

PR: Tops and bottoms, you know.

TT: Okay. Take you back how to open presents between seven, 7:30, what did you guys do after you open the presents up.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

Cont'd

19 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not wear it

20 Christmas night, you know.

21 THOMAS HANEY: So when you put her

22 to bed, on Christmas night, do you recall, would

23 that or could that have been in the bed?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: It could have been

25 under the pillow or something, you know.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

I don't understand Athena, are you not copying transcripts from another site? I understand that JonBenet was murdered on the night of the 25th, or the morning of the 26th (nobody knows for sure). But I am talking about Christmas Eve, and I do believe that both of the transcripts I copied are too.

IMO

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 12:07 PM

If someone wanted to make JR look bad, there are a lot of better things to do.

I could buy a credible intruder theory, but I can't buy that a business associate of John's (or someone simply jealous of him) would ALSO be a murderer (most insanely jealous people aren't capable of murder of an innocent child) and ALSO be a sexual sadist and ALSO know the family home and habits well enough to know the basement window was open and would likely remain open, that the family would return on Christmas night, that the family was in the habit of using the back staircase, etc., and ALSO that JBR would go quietly to the basement with him. (A stun gun could not have been used without attracting a lot of attention - I posted the link to that yesterday.)

That's just too many "also's" for me and I've just started to list them.

JMO

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed
If someone wanted to make JR look bad, there are a lot of better things to do.

I could buy a credible intruder theory, but I can't buy that a business associate of John's (or someone simply jealous of him) would ALSO be a murderer (most insanely jealous people aren't capable of murder of an innocent child) and ALSO be a sexual sadist and ALSO know the family home and habits well enough to know the basement window was open and would likely remain open, that the family would return on Christmas night, that the family was in the habit of using the back staircase, etc., and ALSO that JBR would go quietly to the basement with him. (A stun gun could not have been used without attracting a lot of attention - I posted the link to that yesterday.)

That's just too many "also's" for me and I've just started to list them.

JMO

Jealousy and hatred causes murders to happen all the time. So I don't understand your point.

Oh really you think this killer has not accomplished destroying JRs life forever? How do you figure that? What other plan would have worked as well as this one?

No there is just as much evidence or more so per a Federal Judge that an intruder came into that home. Saying it couldn't have happened has no factual support to it. It does happen...homes are entered into illegally all the time and the homeowners are not even aware that the perps are on the place.

Are you now saying that some other influential people of John's caliber are immured to murder. I thought you have been trying to say that John himself is a murderer, so your stance doesn't make sense to me.

IMO

Ocean

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 12:18 PM

sunsplashed, so it is someone who knew all these habits of the Ramseys, yet also was a sadistic child molester...also a pretty intelligent person who would use satire to get his point across, whatever point his sick mind was trying to make....someone who was pretty familiar with their house inside and out. Or was it someone who just happened to break into this house after casing the joint from the outside and he found JB upstairs and thought he would just kill her. I am not trying to start a fight..I know you know alot more about the case than I, so who do you think did it? I am sorry if you have posted your theory previously and I missed it.

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 12:33 PM

jmgos1

09-04-2006, 12:34 PM

Why a hate for John, maybe someone hated Patsy? Why does JonBenet's killer have to be a man? jmo

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

Jealousy and hatred causes murders to happen all the time. So I don't understand your point.

Snipped for bandwidth only.

Tell me one case where jealousy and hatred of a grown man resulted in the brutal, sadistic murder of his young, innocent daughter.

Yes, murder motivated by jealousy and hatred happens often, but not the sadistic murder of a young child by someone who knew them well enough to know their intimate daily habits.

JMO

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by jmgos1
Why a hate for John, maybe someone hated Patsy? Why does JonBenet's killer have to be a man? jmo

if an intruder......my guess would be a hate for john, the ransome note was directed towards him (my only clue to thinking that).

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by jmgos1
Why a hate for John, maybe someone hated Patsy? Why does JonBenet's killer have to be a man? jmo

I suppose most who think the killer was a man is those who believe that it was directed at JR. He had much more high visibility than Patsy and in the high echelon of the corporate world he would come into contact with loads of people.

John may have not ever known of this deep seeded resentment. It is like someone that cant stand their boss........they usually don't go up and tell the boss that to their face.

IMO

Ocean

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by nutmeg22
sunsplashed, so it is someone who knew all these habits of the Ramseys, yet also was a sadistic child molester...also a pretty intelligent person who would use satire to get his point across, whatever point his sick mind was trying to make....someone who was pretty familiar with their house inside and out. Or was it someone who just happened to break into this house after casing the joint from the outside and he found JB upstairs and thought he would just kill her. I am not trying to start a fight..I know you know alot more about the case than I, so who do you think did it? I am sorry if you have posted your theory previously and I missed it.

Hi Nutmeg

I hope you're having a nice Labor Day.

I think, if someone broke into the Ramsey home, he would have to know the habits of the family. To leave the note of the back staircase rather than on the kitchen counter or on JB's bed, to know the Ramseys were even coming home on Christmas evening and not going away, to know about the open window, to get JB to follow him to the basement without a fuss, etc.

I don't think I know more about the case than you do. I'm still learning things about it. Just yesterday, I learned that Patsy said she only changed JB's black velvet jeans and put on the long underwear:

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/35.html

...yet when JB was found, her hair was in ponytails like she usually wore it for bed (autopsy report). That, combined with the pineapple, tells me that JB was awake after coming home and that Patsy was involved (her fingerprints are on the bowl of pineapple, along with Burke's).

I was starting to believe an intruder did kill JB, but that led me back to Patsy again.

I do believe someone in the home had to have been involved in this.

JMO

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes thought "ah ha, I fooled you in many ways... "I" am out there somewhere now but I have left you with your daughter's body" Catch me if you can....I fooled you on many things I can fool you again.

IMO

Ocean:seeya: [/B]

Thank you, ocean, I appreciate your answer. I agree that I don't think it was just some vagrant happening along. I am baffled.
The killer knew the Ramseys, that's clear to me, but that's about all.

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

Snipped for bandwidth only.

Tell me one case where jealousy and hatred of a grown man resulted in the brutal, sadistic murder of his young, innocent daughter.

Yes, murder motivated by jealousy and hatred happens often, but not the sadistic murder of a young child by someone who knew them well enough to know their intimate daily habits.

JMO

I will try to do some research on that this afternoon.

You are absolutely trying to put all murders in one tiny box Sun. There is no handbook or manual on what "this" murderer did or what the next murderer may do. They are individual crimes...to say oh its never happened before means what? That somehow that is a bullet proof vest that it cant happen at all?:confused:

To pretend that "this" killer has to be a clone is a foolish assumption imo. I think he is very, very, unique and that is why I believe this was a fined tuned plan for months before it happened. This was his kill and he wasn't going to be like everyone else.......he wanted it to be memorable and it it sure happened. He won because he had all the Aces and the Ramseys and Boulder PD had a dead man's hand.

IMO

Ocean

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by hohum
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sunsplashed
[B]

Now, when I posted this before, one poster told me that NO stun gun mfg. would say a stun gun could be responsible [B]

Kudos to that poster. The association with the Ramsey case would be terrible publicity for Air Taser so they were going to do everything possible to separate themselves from the stun gun theory.

It wouldn't be "terrible publicity" for Air Taser. Air Taser's customers weren't going to stop buying stun guns because someone MAY have used one in a murder.

And anyone could have done independent testing to see if Air Taser was truthful. A lie would hurt them more than being truthful.

Even Lou Smit dropped the stun gun theory.

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

I will try to do some research on that this afternoon.

You are absolutely trying to put all murders in one tiny box Sun. There is no handbook or manual on what "this" murderer did or what the next murderer may do. They are individual crimes...to say oh its never happened before means what? That somehow that is a bullet proof vest that it cant happen at all?:confused:

To pretend that "this" killer has to be a clone is a foolish assumption imo. I think he is very, very, unique and that is why I believe this was a fined tuned plan for months before it happened. This was his kill and he wasn't going to be like everyone else.......he wanted it to be memorable and it it sure happened. He won because he had all the Aces and the Ramseys and Boulder PD had a dead man's hand.

IMO

Ocean

Possibly. All murders have similar qualities and unique qualities.

I still don't think it was someone who resented John, though. I can't see someone who resented John killing JB in a sadistic manner.

If it wasn't one of the Ramseys, I'd be more inclined to go along with someone who wanted JB out of the pageant circuit (those pageant moms CAN get very brutal).

If it wasn't one of the Ramseys, I think it was someone who hated JB, not JR.

JMO

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by nutmeg22

Thank you, ocean, I appreciate your answer. I agree that I don't think it was just some vagrant happening along. I am baffled.
The killer knew the Ramseys, that's clear to me, but that's about all.

I think he is sitting right there at his computer at home thoroughly enjoying reading what people think they know about him. I think he has every news clipping, tv shows taped and oh yes, I believe his prized possession is his plan that he so diligently worked on. Wouldn't surprise me at all if there is a floor plan of the Ramsey home and notes written on the floor plan.

IMO

Ocean

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

Possibly. All murders have similar qualities and unique qualities.

I still don't think it was someone who resented John, though. I can't see someone who resented John killing JB in a sadistic manner.

If it wasn't one of the Ramseys, I'd be more inclined to go along with someone who wanted JB out of the pageant circuit (those pageant moms CAN get very brutal).

If it wasn't one of the Ramseys, I think it was someone who hated JB, not JR.

JMO

Sadly, I am no longer as naive as I was at one time. The glaring brutal truth is yes there are many that are very capable of doing sadistic and brutal crimes even against little children.

I just see a very diabolical person playing a very twisted game and he used JB to help seal that rage and vengeance. To me he may be as fanatical as Timothy McVeigh, who thought all the little children that were brutally murdered were merely "collateral damage".

We have some very creepy people in our scoiety........imo this killer is one of them.

IMO

Ocean

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 01:07 PM

I believe the scene of JB's body was staged. But not by a Ramsey. So I question why an intruder would stage it in that manner.

Real far fetched, but, there is no proof that JB was killed in the Ramsey home. There was no blood spatter from the head wound. No real evidence to say where the death took place, just that her body was found in the basement.

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer
I believe the scene of JB's body was staged. But not by a Ramsey. So I question why an intruder would stage it in that manner.

Real far fetched, but, there is no proof that JB was killed in the Ramsey home. There was no blood spatter from the head wound. No real evidence to say where the death took place, just that her body was found in the basement.

I think JB's head injury was more like a closed head injury. There didn't appear to be blood in her hair, the first people to see her didn't even realize she had a devastating head injury, so it stands to reason there would be no blood spatter. It just didn't bleed that much.

While there's no proof of anything in this case, except that JB was killed, I do think she was definitely killed in the home no matter who killed her or for what reason. There's really no evidence of an intruder let alone evidence that someone took JB out then brought her back again.

JMO

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by jmgos1
Why a hate for John, maybe someone hated Patsy? Why does JonBenet's killer have to be a man? jmo

That could be, someone could have hated Patsy..what better way to make a parent suffer?

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer
I believe the scene of JB's body was staged. But not by a Ramsey. So I question why an intruder would stage it in that manner.

Real far fetched, but, there is no proof that JB was killed in the Ramsey home. There was no blood spatter from the head wound. No real evidence to say where the death took place, just that her body was found in the basement.

Interesting.

Didn't they say though that her head wound caused very little outward bleeding. Wouldn't they be able to know amount of blood loss when doing the autopsy and if she had bled out a lot.

I think it was all preconceived to go down like it did except the six hour delay (that was just a happenstance he would never have thought would take so long).........he threw them for a loop ...he wanted them to believe she was alive and gone but he also knew what was coming.......that he had lied to them and she wasn't either alive or gone but there in her own home murdered.

What could be crueler? To give parents hope that they can get their loved one back and then find out the person had lied to them all along.

IMO

Ocean

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 01:30 PM

It's odd that the ransom note was started over and "Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey" changed to "Mr. Ramsey". Was that because the crime was directed at John? Was it changed to hide the fact that it was directed at Patsy? Was it because John was the one with the 118K in his account?

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

I think JB's head injury was more like a closed head injury. There didn't appear to be blood in her hair, the first people to see her didn't even realize she had a devastating head injury, so it stands to reason there would be no blood spatter. It just didn't bleed that much.

While there's no proof of anything in this case, except that JB was killed, I do think she was definitely killed in the home no matter who killed her or for what reason. There's really no evidence of an intruder let alone evidence that someone took JB out then brought her back again.

JMO

Right, Sun, I understand that the wound was closed and there wouldn't have been any blood splatter. But, in many cases there is blood splatter or other evidence that can lead LE to say that 'this is the crime scene' Any evidence like that is lacking in this case. All they have is her body, in her home, with her parents being the only one's there, along with a ransom note saying that the child was kidnapped. That gives LE reason to suspect that the basement was the crime scene.

What's most confusing about this case is that evidence can lead to either a Ramsey or an intruder. It goes both ways. People on both sides give good solid reasons for their opinoins.

Personally, no evidence of an intruder doesn't mean that there wasn't one. I base that mainly on the Couey case in which he didn't leave a trace of himself behind and the dog didn't bark.

This is a great case of 'who done it' and if LE didn't mess the thing up from the get go we might have already had the answer.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

Interesting.

Didn't they say though that her head wound caused very little outward bleeding. Wouldn't they be able to know amount of blood loss when doing the autopsy and if she had bled out a lot.

I think it was all preconceived to go down like it did except the six hour delay (that was just a happenstance he would never have thought would take so long).........he threw them for a loop ...he wanted them to believe she was alive and gone but he also knew what was coming.......that he had lied to them and she wasn't either alive or gone but there in her own home murdered.

What could be crueler? To give parents hope that they can get their loved one back and then find out the person had lied to them all along.

IMO

Ocean

And to cover her with a blanket, so that, at first glance, it would appear that she was sleeping.

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
It's odd that the ransom note was started over and "Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey" changed to "Mr. Ramsey". Was that because the crime was directed at John? Was it changed to hide the fact that it was directed at Patsy? Was it because John was the one with the 118K in his account?

Personally I think it is a male that most likely was talking directly at John.

I think the 118K was also part of the sick game. Imo somehow this killer knew that amount and he knew that John would think "thank god I just got paid for that amount, I'll call the bank" IMO he wanted John to feel comfortable that he could come up with the money he asked for . To me he wanted John to have so much hope then he wanted to see him dissolve into nothing. HIS (JR) money (118K) wouldn't get JB back again. To the killer he knew JRs money would be no good ...all the money in the world couldn't change what the killer had done.

IMO

Ocean

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

Personally I think it is a male that most likely was talking directly at John.

I think the 118K was also part of the sick game. Imo somehow this killer knew that amount and he knew that John would think "thank god I just got paid for that amount, I'll call the bank" IMO he wanted John to feel comfortable that he could come up with the money he asked for . To me he wanted John to have so much hope then he wanted to see him dissolve into nothing. HIS (JR) money (118K) wouldn't get JB back again. To the killer he knew JRs money would be no good ...all the money in the world couldn't change what the killer had done.

IMO

Ocean

This makes sense. What a cruel thing to do to a man who hadn't recovered from the loss of his other daughter. I wonder if the killer expected to be one of the people waiting with John for the kidnapper to call.

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

I've always wondered what "cleared" Ms. Santa. She had after all written the play that supposedly was loosely based on what happened to her own daughter. JMO

No, the play, "Hey Rube" was based on the 1965 torture and killing of a girl in Indiana named Silvia Likens, not on Mrs. McReynolds's daughter, though the McReynolds's daughter had been abducted and forced to watch her friend being tortured.

http://users.1st.net/mwells/JonBenet.htm

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

And to cover her with a blanket, so that, at first glance, it would appear that she was sleeping.

Yes it was all a preconceived plan imo........he set them up for the biggest heartbreak of their lives. He wanted them to see what he had done to their world and to the one they dearly loved.

No parent should have to find their little child this way. The images will forever haunt I am sure.

I think everything was done methodically. Taking time to do the ransom note even re-doing. Going through his ritual of garroting her.....then striking her ...then placing her down in the wine cellar, putting blanket over her and then he left. Just as planned imo. He came to make a statement and he did.

And I don't think he will ever be caught but I don't think he will kill again. He accomplished what he wanted to do and more so. Why mess with perfection.. I dont see him as careless at all.

I think I read here or maybe another site where JB was at the mall and she told a friend that a Santa had told her that he was making a special trip to come see her . The friend tried to tell her that Santa came on Christmas morning not that night. JB argued with her and said no he said then.

Have you heard that?

IMO

Ocean

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

This makes sense. What a cruel thing to do to a man who hadn't recovered from the loss of his other daughter. I wonder if the killer expected to be one of the people waiting with John for the kidnapper to call.

I have often thought about his other daughter.

Wasn't she killed in an automobile accident? Was it due to someone else's fault and if so did the Ramseys sue this individual and if at fault was he/she charged with vehicular homicide?

Thanks O.

I have just wondered about that from time to time.

IMO

Ocean

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 02:03 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes again. He accomplished what he wanted to do and more so.

I think I read here or maybe another site where JB was at the mall and she told a friend that a Santa had told her that he was making a special trip to come see her . The friend tried to tell her that Santa came on Christmas morning not that night. JB argued with her and said no he said then.

Have you heard that?

I just read the ransom note over again. It just reeks of a disgruntled person who is extremely unhappy with his own situation and is striking out. It is aimed at John. The sentence that John "isn't the only fat cat around"...speaks volumes.
Yes, the friend told JB that Santa comes on Christmas day and JB said that Santa had told her no he was making a special visti to her AFTER Christmas. I don't have a link, I just read that part in PMPT.

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by nutmeg22

Hi roseyredrobin,
I began reading PMPT this weekend and I can only do so in increments because for me, the beginning is pretty hard to take. I realize I may be getting overly emotional about it but I have 3 little granddaughters and the parts where people descibe JonBenet just get right to my heart. I love reading books like this, that are a very in-depth description of what took place and putting myself in Patsy's place is easy,intellectually..yet excrutiatingly difficult emotionally! I will contain myself and read on before I can comment on the detectives and the DA's office, etc.

Hi nutmeg... I also just began reading PM/PT and appreciate a fair and clear accounting of the events. It certainly has been distorted by the media. Also I had always thought Patsy was calm and aloof! NOT EVEN CLOSE!!! She was in shock, couldn't even walk without help.

Also in the book it says John opened the door and flipped on the light and found her body. He wasn't peering in the dark afterall. No wonder White didn't see her, he didn't turn on the light.

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 02:06 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes
[B]

I have often thought about his other daughter.

Wasn't she killed in an automobile accident? Was it due to someone else's fault and if so did the Ramseys sue this individual and if at fault was he/she charged with vehicular homicide?

Thanks O.

I have just wondered about that from time to time.

I have also wondered where the older children's mother was and I think she was in Atlanta. Was their divorce final a long time before he married Patsy? I know this is beside the point, but I was wondering if the daughter's death was during his first marriage or after his first marriage and if it perhaps caused a split..as sometimes does happen with the death of a child.

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

Hi nutmeg... I also just began reading PM/PT and appreciate a fair and clear accounting of the events. It certainly has been distorted by the media. Also I had always thought Patsy was calm and aloof! NOT EVEN CLOSE!!! She was in shock, couldn't even walk without help.

Also in the book it says John opened the door and flipped on the light and found her body. He wasn't peering in the dark afterall. No wonder White didn't see her, he didn't turn on the light.

Hi Dixie...yes this book is clearing up alot of what I had only seen or heard on these boards or on TV. You are so right, Patsy was in no shape to give a lucid interview or give a true sample of her handwriting as she was heavily sedated. I believe she probably was sedated for months, though not nearly as heavily as at the beginnning. John, too, probably had to take something I would believe.

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by nutmeg22
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes again. He accomplished what he wanted to do and more so.

I think I read here or maybe another site where JB was at the mall and she told a friend that a Santa had told her that he was making a special trip to come see her . The friend tried to tell her that Santa came on Christmas morning not that night. JB argued with her and said no he said then.

Have you heard that?

I just read the ransom note over again. It just reeks of a disgruntled person who is extremely unhappy with his own situation and is striking out. It is aimed at John. The sentence that John "isn't the only fat cat around"...speaks volumes.
Yes, the friend told JB that Santa comes on Christmas day and JB said that Santa had told her no he was making a special visit to her AFTER Christmas. I don't have a link, I just read that part in PMPT.

Thanks so much nutmeg! At least I didn't dream it. I have read sooooooooo much about this case it all becomes blurry at times.

I agree someone hates John Ramsey............and hates his power and money. Very very volatile imo he probably had been storing up all this negative energy and wrath for a while digesting it until it became toxic waste. This killer was going to show him what all his power and money could do! Not a da*n thing! This murder is a lot about control and power...... this was simply a "takeover" move on this guys part to him imo.

I find him to be probably be a sociopath........when they feel they are wounded they will go to extreme lengths to bannish anyone who does not conform to their way of thinking. I still say a loner.

IMO

Ocean

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by nutmeg22
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes
[B]

I have often thought about his other daughter.

Wasn't she killed in an automobile accident? Was it due to someone else's fault and if so did the Ramseys sue this individual and if at fault was he/she charged with vehicular homicide?

Thanks O.

I have just wondered about that from time to time.

I have also wondered where the older children's mother was and I think she was in Atlanta. Was their divorce final a long time before he married Patsy? I know this is beside the point, but I was wondering if the daughter's death was during his first marriage or after his first marriage and if it perhaps caused a split..as sometimes does happen with the death of a child.

I really dont know..

Wasnt she killed after? Didnt they say that John and Patsy had been married for 25 years?

IMO

Ocean

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 02:21 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes
[B]

Thanks so much nutmeg! At least I didn't dream it. I have read sooooooooo much about this case it all becomes blurry at times.

I agree someone hates John Ramsey............and hates his power and money. Very very volatile imo he probably had been storing up all this negative energy and wrath for a while digesting it until it became toxic waste. This killer was going to show him what all his power and money could do! Not a da*n thing! This murder is a lot about control and power...... this was simply a "takeover" move on this guys part to him imo.

I find him to be probably be a sociopath........when they feel they are wounded they will go to extreme lengths to bannish anyone who does not conform to their way of thinking. I still say a loner.

Yes, Ocean, I agree with your assessment. What is beginnning to baffle me even more is if I, a mere lay person, can read that note and come up with that conclusion, why on earth can't professionals do the same and base at least some of their search efforts in the direction of John's company . Perhaps they did do so, I don't know yet. Of course this person may only know of John through what he reads or sees in the media , I mean he may not be an ex employee or even know John personally. JMO of course. I am rambling...

Athena

09-04-2006, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

I think JB's head injury was more like a closed head injury. There didn't appear to be blood in her hair, the first people to see her didn't even realize she had a devastating head injury, so it stands to reason there would be no blood spatter. It just didn't bleed that much.

While there's no proof of anything in this case, except that JB was killed, I do think she was definitely killed in the home no matter who killed her or for what reason. There's really no evidence of an intruder let alone evidence that someone took JB out then brought her back again.

JMO

Closed head injury? OMG: It measured 7x4" and 8 1/2 L. If that head injury was inflicted before the strangulation you better believe there would have been a POOL of blood which is why they determined the head injury occurred at or near death. :rolleyes:

BTW Ocean -- your posts are articulated well and make alot of sense. JMO

This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization. At the superior extension of the is area of
hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which
extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area
forward tot he right frontal area across the parietal skull.
In the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly
rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one
and three-quarters by one-half inch. The hemorrhage and the
fracture extend posteriorly just past the midline of the
occipital area of the skull. This fracture measures
approximately 8.5 inches in length.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/ramsey.case/final.autopsy.html

cantstandnuts

09-04-2006, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

Thanks so much nutmeg! At least I didn't dream it. I have read sooooooooo much about this case it all becomes blurry at times.

I agree someone hates John Ramsey............and hates his power and money. Very very volatile imo he probably had been storing up all this negative energy and wrath for a while digesting it until it became toxic waste. This killer was going to show him what all his power and money could do! Not a da*n thing! This murder is a lot about control and power...... this was simply a "takeover" move on this guys part to him imo.

I find him to be probably be a sociopath........when they feel they are wounded they will go to extreme lengths to bannish anyone who does not conform to their way of thinking. I still say a loner.

IMO

Ocean

If you read and pay attention to the ransom note, what you believe, Ocean, is really the only thing that makes sense, given the note. The ransom note reeks of anger and hatred toward John and I have only been able to interpret it that way. I know the other theory out there is Patsy wrote it, but that note doesn't make any sense with her as the author.

I totally agree with you, someone hated him and planned this meticulously and could have been caught only if the BPD hadn't botched the investigation so thoroughly. Now, I fear we'll never know. Someone got away with this due to the incompetence of LE.

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Closed head injury? OMG: It measured 7x4" and 8 1/2 L. If that head injury was inflicted before the strangulation you better believe there would have been a POOL of blood which is why they determined the head injury occurred at or near death. :rolleyes:

BTW Ocean -- your posts are articulated well and make alot of sense. JMO

This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization. At the superior extension of the is area of
hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which
extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area
forward tot he right frontal area across the parietal skull.
In the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly
rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one
and three-quarters by one-half inch. The hemorrhage and the
fracture extend posteriorly just past the midline of the
occipital area of the skull. This fracture measures
approximately 8.5 inches in length.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/ramsey.case/final.autopsy.html

I did not say it WAS a closed head injury did I? I said it was LIKE a closed head injury in that it didn't bleed much. Her hair was not even bloody.

I actually made a post that SUPPORTED your intruder theory, in that the head injury came last. No need to roll your eyes like a kid in grade school.

I'll go back to my "the Ramseys are guilty" stance, which is what I believe and close my mind to other information. The "jealous of John intruder" is getting about as plausible as Martians abducting JBR and then returning her, IMO.

I get attacked for being on the fence. I get attacked for believing the Ramseys are guilty. I get attacked for saying it could have been an intruder. I get attacked for typos. I get attacked for grammar. I get the message that you want me to leave and not let the door hit me on the way out, but that isn't your decision to make.

It's a good thing for me cyberattacks are harmless or in this case I'd be dead.

JMO

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 02:47 PM

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 02:47 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sunsplashed
[B]

I get attacked for being on the fence. I get attacked for believing the Ramseys are guilty. I get attacked for saying it could have been an intruder. I get attacked for typos. I get attacked for grammar. I get the message that you want me to leave and not let the door hit me on the way out, but that isn't your decision to make.

It's a good thing for me cyberattacks are harmless or in this case I'd be dead.

Sunsplashed I knew what you meant when you said "closed head injury"...and I enjoy your posts, have for a long time. I don't want you to leave and hope you don't. I think the more variety of opinion we have the better the discussion. JMO

Athena

09-04-2006, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

I did not say it WAS a closed head injury did I? I said it was LIKE a closed head injury in that it didn't bleed much. Her hair was not even bloody.

I actually made a post that SUPPORTED your intruder theory, in that the head injury came last. No need to roll your eyes like a kid in grade school.

I'll go back to my "the Ramseys are guilty" stance, which is what I believe and close my mind to other information. The "jealous of John intruder" is getting about as plausible as Martians abducting JBR and then returning her, IMO.

I get attacked for being on the fence. I get attacked for believing the Ramseys are guilty. I get attacked for saying it could have been an intruder. I get attacked for typos. I get attacked for grammar. I get the message that you want me to leave and not let the door hit me on the way out, but that isn't your decision to make.

It's a good thing for me cyberattacks are harmless or in this case I'd be dead.

JMO

Sun -- that was immature on my part for the rolleyes bit and I apologize; my intention was not to attack you and apparently I read your post incorrectly. My sincere apology. :o

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

Better read that note again. Someone "respects" JR, yet brutally murders his daughter?

No, no way.

JMO
Ok, I am going to go read it again.

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 02:50 PM

You know sometimes especially people that may be loners and have little or no friends don't ever voice their displeasure verbally but it is deep down internally their dark mind that these thoughts start to grow and flourish. We don't know what sparked this but it may have been something that seems really insignificant to us but to him it was everything.

So if he sat there like a little unassuming guy........then no one would know what lurked in his mind.

If ever caught which I will always pray happens. I think he is going to be seen as the least likely one to have done this. I think he has fooled everyone. Even those who may come into contact with him.

I bet he is no JK and has not said one word about the Ramsey case or even lets on like he cares one way or the other.

IMO

Ocean

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 02:54 PM

sunsplashed, the note states "we respect your bussines but not the country it serves.." I think the killer is fed up with his station in life..he may not know John Ramsey as a personal friend, but it sure is aimed at men who are successful and wealthy and he picked John Ramsey's daughter for this. I don't know everything and I am sure not a professional so the killer doesn't make alot of sense to me, it just looks to me like the killer is in a way feeling sorry for himself, feeling trod upon by more successful men, feeling like a failure. Again, I am no professional.JMO

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

Better read that note again. Someone "respects" JR, yet brutally murders his daughter?

No, no way.

JMO

You expect a confirmed blatant liar not to lie where it behooves him?

So if that is in there then he is making sure that he is insinuating that he has respect for JR. Yes, what respect......nothing like paying your respects and leaving your daughter murdered in their own home.

IMO

Ocean

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes
You know sometimes especially people that may be loners and have little or no friends don't ever voice their displeasure verbally but it is deep down internally their dark mind that these thoughts start to grow and flourish. We don't know what sparked this but it may have been something that seems really insignificant to us but to him it was everything.

So if he sat there like a little unassuming guy........then no one would know what lurked in his mind.

If ever caught which I will always pray happens. I think he is going to be seen as the least likely one to have done this. I think he has fooled everyone. Even those who may come into contact with him.

I bet he is no JK and has not said one word about the Ramsey case or even lets on like he cares one way or the other.

I enjoy your posts, Ocean, along with alot of other posters you always have something interesting to say. I agree that when caught, people will say he is the least likely one to have done this. The force of the blow to JB's head had to be done in anger and frustration.JMO

IMO

Ocean

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

You expect a confirmed blatant liar not to lie where it behooves him?

So if that is in there then he is making sure that he is insinuating that he has respect for JR. Yes, what respect......nothing like paying your respects and leaving your daughter murdered in their own home.

IMO

Ocean

Who are you speaking of? Who is a confirmed, blatant liar?

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

It's a good thing for me cyberattacks are harmless or in this case I'd be dead.

JMO

SNIPPED

:lol: Not laughing at ya, sun, but that's funny. :biggrin:

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 03:33 PM

Barbara Kostanick - mother of JonBenet playmate

from PMPT pg. 50:

"The day before Christmas, JonBenet was at our house playing with Megan. The kids were talking about Santa, getting all excited. I asked JonBenet if she had visited Santa Claus yet. She said, "Oh, Santa was at our Christmas party the other night." Megan had seen Santa at the Pearl Street Mall, so we talked about that.

Then JonBenet said, "Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas."

I thought she was confused. "Christmas is tonight," I told her. "And Santa will be coming tonight."

"No, no," JonBenet insisted. "He said this would be after Christmas. And it's a secret." (Barbara Kostanick)

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

Who are you speaking of? Who is a confirmed, blatant liar?

The killer? Did he not say that JB had been kidnapped for money?

Did the note/letter writer infer if 118K was paid he would return her?

Was that true?

Did he lie? Yes.

IMO of course.

Ocean

samsong

09-04-2006, 03:37 PM

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 03:45 PM

non-family recently in basement:

1. the painters - door to wine cellar (room where JonBenet's body was found) painted but not the room, itself

2. whoever delivered the six trees from the Access Graphics storage hangar and stored them in the wine cellar

3. housekeeper, her husband, her daughter, and her daughter's husband, who carried the trees upstairs to the five bedrooms and playroom at the end of November

Hopeintown

09-04-2006, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Athena

She was talking about two different nights. The first night was Christmas EVE and here is the next few lines from the transcript and the night she was killed was Christmas NIGHT. This is exactly the reason posts should not be copied from other forums. JMHO

TT: Okay, how about JonBenet. What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear sort of . . .

TT: Tops and bottoms.

PR: Tops and bottoms, you know.

TT: Okay. Take you back how to open presents between seven, 7:30, what did you guys do after you open the presents up.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

Cont'd

19 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not wear it

20 Christmas night, you know.

21 THOMAS HANEY: So when you put her

22 to bed, on Christmas night, do you recall, would

23 that or could that have been in the bed?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: It could have been

25 under the pillow or something, you know.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

I'm sorry to bring this up again Athena, but when you say PR was talking about two different nights, what nights do you think she was talking about in the above transcripts?

I am trying to figure out what JB wore to bed on Christmas Eve, and why she would have had a nightgown under her pillow. In the transcripts I quoted it sounds to me as if PR gives two different answers as to what JB wore to bed on Christmas Eve.

When PR says "that day she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear", "tops and bottoms", I got the impression that was when JB came downstairs after she had awaken to open presents Christmas morning.

Do you have a different impression?

IMO

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 04:12 PM

What purpose did this cord serve?

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/ramsey.case/final.autopsy.html

Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white
cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in
length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5
inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord
is also frayed.

Athena

09-04-2006, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

I'm sorry to bring this up again Athena, but when you say PR was talking about two different nights, what nights do you think she was talking about in the above transcripts?

I am trying to figure out what JB wore to bed on Christmas Eve, and why she would have had a nightgown under her pillow. In the transcripts I quoted it sounds to me as if PR gives two different answers as to what JB wore to bed on Christmas Eve.

When PR says "that day she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear", "tops and bottoms", I got the impression that was when JB came downstairs after she had awaken to open presents Christmas morning.

Do you have a different impression?

IMO

This is only my interpretation -- and no need to be sorry. :)

My impression is that she wore the pink set (given to her by her Aunt) Christmas Eve into Christmas morning. The white top and bottoms she wore on the night she was killed; Christmas night.

The nightgown you are referring to was not under her pillow. From what I read it was either in a bathroom drawer adjacent to her room or in the "dirty clothes". Patsy wasn't sure. (I believe you are referring to the Barbie nightgown? If you are pull up the transcript and do a search for "Barbie" and you'll see they are actually three differerent situations. The Barbie nightgown was found next to her body in the wine cellar. jmo

Let me know if you think differently.

peachdaquari

09-04-2006, 04:20 PM

I dont know anything about a nightgown under her pillow but could it be a southern thing? Or an "old school" thing?? My mom
used to have us girls put our nightie under our pillow, I have no idea why as I must have been very young and didnt even remember that until I read that post:shrug:

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 04:24 PM

Athena

09-04-2006, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by peachdaquari
I dont know anything about a nightgown under her pillow but could it be a southern thing? Or an "old school" thing?? My mom
used to have us girls put our nightie under our pillow, I have no idea why as I must have been very young and didnt even remember that until I read that post:shrug:

LOL - never grew up in the South but there were six children in our family. My mom had enough laundry to do without us wearing a different pair of pajamas/nightgowns to bed each night so when we made our beds in the morning we'd put our nightclothes under the pillows to wear again.

The nightgown under the pillow became significant when trying to find out how her "Barbie" nightgown came to be beside her in the wine cellar and turned out she hadn't worn it for a few nights. It was another set under her pillow that she used to change into between costume changes at the pageants, according to the transcripts above. jmo

Athena

09-04-2006, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer

It served no purpose, IMO, it was intended to make it look like JB had been restrained but thats laughable when you look at it. JMO

Sounds like it was part of the "staging" by the killer. I do remember hearing that one of the ties even came right off so wasn't even a restraint. jmo

peachdaquari

09-04-2006, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Athena

LOL - never grew up in the South but there were six children in our family. My mom had enough laundry to do without us wearing a different pair of pajamas/nightgowns to bed each night so when we made our beds in the morning we'd put our nightclothes under the pillows to wear again.

The nightgown under the pillow became significant when trying to find out how her "Barbie" nightgown came to be beside her in the wine cellar and turned out she hadn't worn it for a few nights. It was another set under her pillow that she used to change into between costume changes at the pageants, according to the transcripts above. jmo oooooh ok, I bet your right, my mom had 5 kids so it probably was a laundry issue:lol:

thanks for the rest of the info too:seeya:

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer

It served no purpose, IMO, it was intended to make it look like JB had been restrained but thats laughable when you look at it. JMO

No bruising on right wrist. :shrug:

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Sounds like it was part of the "staging" by the killer. I do remember hearing that one of the ties even came right off so wasn't even a restraint. jmo

Disposing of leftover cord?

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Disposing of leftover cord?

I wonder if he still has the third piece of the paintbrush? His souvenir perhaps?

IMO

Ocean

Athena

09-04-2006, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Disposing of leftover cord?

Or staging it to make it look like a sex crime?

hohum

09-04-2006, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed
that the family was in the habit of using the back staircase, etc., and ALSO that JBR would go quietly to the basement with him. (A stun gun could not have been used without attracting a lot of attention - I posted the link to that yesterday.)

JMO

It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the back staircase since it goes between the bedrooms and the kitchen area. Do more research on the stun gun, preferably something other than the biased Air Taser response.

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 04:52 PM

hohum

09-04-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

It wouldn't be "terrible publicity" for Air Taser. Air Taser's customers weren't going to stop buying stun guns because someone MAY have used one in a murder.

And anyone could have done independent testing to see if Air Taser was truthful. A lie would hurt them more than being truthful.

Even Lou Smit dropped the stun gun theory.

Oh do please give us that link where Lou Smit dropped the stun gun theory.

Of course Air Taser did not want to be associated with such a notorious crime. That kind of publicity is never good.

Hopeintown

09-04-2006, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Athena

This is only my interpretation -- and no need to be sorry. :)

My impression is that she wore the pink set (given to her by her Aunt) Christmas Eve into Christmas morning. The white top and bottoms she wore on the night she was killed; Christmas night.

The nightgown you are referring to was not under her pillow. From what I read it was either in a bathroom drawer adjacent to her room or in the "dirty clothes". Patsy wasn't sure. (I believe you are referring to the Barbie nightgown? If you are pull up the transcript and do a search for "Barbie" and you'll see they are actually three differerent situations. The Barbie nightgown was found next to her body in the wine cellar. jmo

Let me know if you think differently.

Thanks for the information. There are many things I had forgotten about pertaining to this case, and that Barbie nightgown is one of them. It's strange how it ended up in the cellar next to JB.

In reading the transcripts it just sounded odd to me that JB had a nightgown under her pillow, and if I remember correctly wasn't the underwear she was found in from a new package?

Anyway, it sounds to me as if PR is saying in one interview that JB had on a nightgown on Christmas Eve, and in another she said JB was wearing insulated two piece underwear. She also said that JB's pajamas were kept in the bathroom drawer unless they were in the dirty clothes.

IMO

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htm

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The nightgowns were

2 kept in the bathroom, in her bathroom in the side

3 drawer there. Her pajamas were there.

4 TOM HANEY: All of them?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Unless they were in the dirty

6 clothes.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htm

Christmas Morning

TT: Okay. How about JonBenét? What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink, little kind of insulated underwear, sort of...

TT: tops and bottoms?

PR tops and bottoms, you know.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/35.html

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Sounds like it was part of the "staging" by the killer. I do remember hearing that one of the ties even came right off so wasn't even a restraint. jmo

would make sense as part of staging ....especially if they used a stun gun, no need to restrain if jbr was unconscious.

hohum

09-04-2006, 04:55 PM

hohum

09-04-2006, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by jerzeegirl

would make sense as part of staging ....especially if they used a stun gun, no need to restrain if jbr was unconscious.

I think it's significant that JB had two sets of stun gun marks.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Sounds like it was part of the "staging" by the killer. I do remember hearing that one of the ties even came right off so wasn't even a restraint. jmo

Mr.Gator laughed when he saw it. Not only are the knots slip type and easy to move but there is to much cord left between the wrist holes to completely restrain someone.

hohum

09-04-2006, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

If it wasn't one of the Ramseys, I'd be more inclined to go along with someone who wanted JB out of the pageant circuit (those pageant moms CAN get very brutal).

If it wasn't one of the Ramseys, I think it was someone who hated JB, not JR.

JMO

LOL what will people think of next........

Did the ransom note say I hate you JB? My gosh the killer did not know or could not even spell her name and referred to her as "your daughter."

Gregor's Back

09-04-2006, 05:30 PM

All of you have followed this case much more closely than I have, so maybe someone can tell me why what I believe is implausible.

What struck me the first time I saw Brooke was that he seems to have been the complete opposite of JonBenet in looks, personality and talent.

He seems to truly have lived in her shadow.

Since the Ramseys have never been eliminated, and since there's no clear cut proof there was an intruder, and especially since there have been some experts who say Patsy wrote the note, I thought if Patsy found the body, and if she believed Brooke was responsible, whether he really was or not, I could imagine her writing the note and getting John to help stage the scene to look like an intruder had been in the house.

I don't think Patsy or John would have covered for each other, but I believe they would try to protect their only remaining child.

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by hohum

Oh do please give us that link where Lou Smit dropped the stun gun theory.

Of course Air Taser did not want to be associated with such a notorious crime. That kind of publicity is never good.

I can tell you're not in marketing. ANY publicity is GOOD publicity.

I asked you previously how this could possibly harm Air Taser and you didn't answer, so I assume, since you answer all questions, that you just missed it.

How could it possibly harm Air Taser? They weren't involved in the murder of JBR. They weren't a suspect. Their customers, which, for the most part involved law enforcement and private security firms, etc., weren't going to stop buying anything from them.

Independent tests were done which proved that Air Taser was quite truthful.

So, how could they be harmed?

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by hohum

LOL what will people think of next........

Did the ransom note say I hate you JB? My gosh the killer did not know or could not even spell her name and referred to her as "your daughter."

Too ridiculous to comment on that... but... reading PMPT... pg. 138
"police told her that there was an unidentified print on the ransom note"

Hadn't heard that before. Thought the only print was the palm print some say is Melinda's. (?) Still trying to get the facts straight.

Athena

09-04-2006, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
What purpose did this cord serve?

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/ramsey.case/final.autopsy.html

Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white
cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in
length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5
inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord
is also frayed.

I found this transcript sheerly by accident of an interview between Larry King and James Walsh. I found this statement to be interesting. Walsh was asked apparently to get involved with the case so may have known something about the "evidence" but I never heard/read this before (that JBR had been "cut down")?

I mean, you are a detective and you go to a kidnapping of a high -- prominent family in a very wealthy area, and then, you know, police work 101, you clear the house and you clear the crime scene. She allowed the father and his friend to search the house. So he cuts down JonBenet, who is hanging down there. He compromised the crime scene, whether he had anything to do with it or he had nothing to do with it, he cut down his daughter in the crime scene with the DNA.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0203/04/lkl.00.html

Mimi428

09-04-2006, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by hohum

I think it's significant that JB had two sets of stun gun marks.

You got a link to an official source for that? Something from the coroner who performed the autopsy, or the like?

Bet not.

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Athena

I found this transcript sheerly by accident of an interview between Larry King and James Walsh. I found this statement to be interesting. Walsh was asked apparently to get involved with the case so may have known something about the "evidence" but I never heard/read this before (that JBR had been "cut down")?

I mean, you are a detective and you go to a kidnapping of a high -- prominent family in a very wealthy area, and then, you know, police work 101, you clear the house and you clear the crime scene. She allowed the father and his friend to search the house. So he cuts down JonBenet, who is hanging down there. He compromised the crime scene, whether he had anything to do with it or he had nothing to do with it, he cut down his daughter in the crime scene with the DNA.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0203/04/lkl.00.html

whoah! thats the first time i ever heard of her hanging and JR cutting her down. That surely must be a mistake?

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back
All of you have followed this case much more closely than I have, so maybe someone can tell me why what I believe is implausible.

What struck me the first time I saw Brooke was that he seems to have been the complete opposite of JonBenet in looks, personality and talent.

He seems to truly have lived in her shadow.

Since the Ramseys have never been eliminated, and since there's no clear cut proof there was an intruder, and especially since there have been some experts who say Patsy wrote the note, I thought if Patsy found the body, and if she believed Brooke was responsible, whether he really was or not, I could imagine her writing the note and getting John to help stage the scene to look like an intruder had been in the house.

I don't think Patsy or John would have covered for each other, but I believe they would try to protect their only remaining child.

I think you mean Burke, not Brooke. I called him Blake a few times myself because I'm writing an article that features a man named Blake. LOL

I think Boulder LE cleared Burke, but I'm not sure how or why. If I find a link to a credible source, I'll post it for you or send it to you.

I do think Patsy and John would have covered for each other (of course, I don't know, maybe they wouldn't have). I think John loved Patsy more than he loved JB and I think Patsy would have covered for John simply to maintain the status quo as much as possible.

It's been theorized by some that Patsy and John would have covered for each other simply to keep Burke from being sent to live with someone else.

I don't know.

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 05:39 PM

and how do you cut down with dna?

is this some kinda figure of speech maybe?

Athena

09-04-2006, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

Thanks for the information. There are many things I had forgotten about pertaining to this case, and that Barbie nightgown is one of them. It's strange how it ended up in the cellar next to JB.

In reading the transcripts it just sounded odd to me that JB had a nightgown under her pillow, and if I remember correctly wasn't the underwear she was found in from a new package?

Anyway, it sounds to me as if PR is saying in one interview that JB had on a nightgown on Christmas Eve, and in another she said JB was wearing insulated two piece underwear. She also said that JB's pajamas were kept in the bathroom drawer unless they were in the dirty clothes.

IMO

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htm

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The nightgowns were

2 kept in the bathroom, in her bathroom in the side

3 drawer there. Her pajamas were there.

4 TOM HANEY: All of them?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Unless they were in the dirty

6 clothes.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htm

Christmas Morning

TT: Okay. How about JonBenét? What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink, little kind of insulated underwear, sort of...

TT: tops and bottoms?

PR tops and bottoms, you know.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/35.html

Sorry - I'm lost. Where does it say she was wearing a nightgown on Christmas Eve? In both quotes above one says pink little (inaudible) and in the next quote she says pink little again and the police officer adds the words tops and bottoms and she repeats them???

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by jerzeegirl

whoah! thats the first time i ever heard of her hanging and JR cutting her down. That surely must be a mistake?

I think it is a mistake, jerzeegirl.

You can read JR's police interview of April 30, 1997 here:

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/36.html

He talks about finding JB's body lying on the floor and is even questioned about which direction she was facing, etc.

Athena

09-04-2006, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by jerzeegirl
and how do you cut down with dna?

is this some kinda figure of speech maybe?

I interpreted that to mean by cutting her down he compromised the DNA??? What struck me was the description of the frayed cord in the post I was responding to and then James Walsh saying she was cut down which would explain the frayed cord.

I wonder if Walsh knew stuff that wasn't released since he was asked to get involved??? Again I hadn't seen this discussed anywhere so just throwing it out there.

Ocean, rosyred -- where are u??? LOL

Athena

09-04-2006, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

I think it is a mistake, jerzeegirl.

You can read JR's police interview of April 30, 1997 here:

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/36.html

He talks about finding JB's body lying on the floor and is even questioned about which direction she was facing, etc.

A mistake or a "slip of the tongue" by Walsh? We don't know for sure if these transcripts were altered to keep info out of the media? Why would Walsh say that? Just a thought.

Gregor's Back

09-04-2006, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

I think you mean Burke, not Brooke. I called him Blake a few times myself because I'm writing an article that features a man named Blake. LOL

I think Boulder LE cleared Burke, but I'm not sure how or why. If I find a link to a credible source, I'll post it for you or send it to you.

I do think Patsy and John would have covered for each other (of course, I don't know, maybe they wouldn't have). I think John loved Patsy more than he loved JB and I think Patsy would have covered for John simply to maintain the status quo as much as possible.

It's been theorized by some that Patsy and John would have covered for each other simply to keep Burke from being sent to live with someone else.

I don't know.
Sorry about the name.

I actually think John or Patsy might cover for each other, I just didn't want my post to be too outrageous. As far as I know, the Ramseys allowed Burke (had to correct that again) to be questioned several months after the murder.

There could be several reasons he could have withstood questioning.

I'm sure a lot of people will say a nine year old isn't capable of that kind of killing.

Burke was two weeks short of being 10. The only murder in 150 years in the hick town where I grew up was committed by a kid less than a week after his tenth birthday, and he managed to hide the body so well it wasn't discovered for three months.

The actual murder doesn't have to have been as gruesome as it appears to have been done.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 05:52 PM

Thanks for finding and posting the transcript link, Athena. I've heard other posters mention this about Walsh.

Odd slip of the tongue. Wonder what case he might have been thinking about that he confused with this one.

Either that or it is true and it's been something that was kept out of transcripts. :shrug: Don't know how though cause in everything I have read JR clearly says he found JB on the floor.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Athena

I interpreted that to mean by cutting her down he compromised the DNA??? What struck me was the description of the frayed cord in the post I was responding to and then James Walsh saying she was cut down which would explain the frayed cord.

I wonder if Walsh knew stuff that wasn't released since he was asked to get involved??? Again I hadn't seen this discussed anywhere so just throwing it out there.

Ocean, rosyred -- where are u??? LOL

The problem with that theory is that there is no bruising on her right wrist.

I agree with you about the frayed ends. It was the first thing I thought of, too.

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

You got a link to an official source for that? Something from the coroner who performed the autopsy, or the like?

Bet not.

No, but I have a link to an official statement from Air Taser, a maker of stun guns who said that NO stun gun could have made those marks in 1996:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-6013/t-4708

They even provided an Air Taser stun gun to Lou Smit, but Smit, desperate to find something on which to hang his flimsy evidence of an intruder, hung on to the flawed stun gun theory for as long as he could.

You'd think a homicide investigator with thirty years experience would know better, but some people think they can fool all the people, all the time, I guess.

JMO

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

I thought that might be the one piece of information that Karr would know. Apparently, not - must have been a mis-speak on John Walsh's part. One thing that puzzles me though is that her arms were above her head when John brought her upstairs....

The "frayed" cords have never been explained as far as I know. Plus, I don't think the exact kind of cord has ever been released, has it? It might be the kind of cord that unravels easily?

Hmmm, frayed cords. I need to go check the pics again. Is it visable in the crime scene photo's?

I do know a way of making, not a knot, but lets call it a handle, in which you weave the frayed rope strands like a braid.

Mr.Gator brought me home a piece of rope the other day that has this 'handle'.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer

Hmmm, frayed cords. I need to go check the pics again. Is it visable in the crime scene photo's?

I do know a way of making, not a knot, but lets call it a handle, in which you weave the frayed rope strands like a braid.

Mr.Gator brought me home a piece of rope the other day that has this 'handle'.

Do you have a link for a photo of the cord, msgator?

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Do you have a link for a photo of the cord, msgator?

Just found one, lol, after asking Mr.Gator what it was called.

It's a spliced rope, or rope splice.

Here's a pic. that shows how it's made.

http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/B_S_M/Images/022_Short_Splice_2nd.jpg

And here is one the way I have seen them.

http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2005/winch%20rope/splice14_.jpg

Athena

09-04-2006, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer
Thanks for finding and posting the transcript link, Athena. I've heard other posters mention this about Walsh.

Odd slip of the tongue. Wonder what case he might have been thinking about that he confused with this one.

Either that or it is true and it's been something that was kept out of transcripts. :shrug: Don't know how though cause in everything I have read JR clearly says he found JB on the floor.

Didn't Fleet White go into the basement earlier and claims he couldn't see -- I know my mind is whirling........

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:06 PM

So, she was posed (after unconsciousness/death) with her arms above her head as though she had been hanging?

Athena

09-04-2006, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

Burke was questioned by the police on the 26th for a hour without his parents knowledge. He was questioned again on January 8th and on two other occasions for appx. 6 hours.

IMO - he would have to be a exceptionally intelligent and crafty 9/10 year old to not let anything "slip" during that questioning.

I agree. If he had anything to do with JBR's death and was questioned without adults - cannot imagine him not breaking down. jmo

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Sorry about the name.

I actually think John or Patsy might cover for each other, I just didn't want my post to be too outrageous. As far as I know, the Ramseys allowed Burke (had to correct that again) to be questioned several months after the murder.

There could be several reasons he could have withstood questioning.

I'm sure a lot of people will say a nine year old isn't capable of that kind of killing.

Burke was two weeks short of being 10. The only murder in 150 years in the hick town where I grew up was committed by a kid less than a week after his tenth birthday, and he managed to hide the body so well it wasn't discovered for three months.

The actual murder doesn't have to have been as gruesome as it appears to have been done.

Don't worry about the name. Like I said, I called him Blake at first. I think all of us make typos here. No problem.

In Colorado, a nine-year-old couldn't even have been legally held responsible for a murder, but I'm sure there would have been consequences as well as a lot of negative publicity.

I definitely think Burke knows something, but I don't think he killed JB. I do know some kids do, though. They are capable of it.

I don't think the murder was as gruesome as it sometimes sounds. Some very prominent pathology experts even say the believe the head wound came first.

http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1997/07/15-2.html

I'm sure the Boulder ME isn't/wasn't infallible, especially given how inept the BPD was (still is, in my estimation, and I've lived in Boulder, don't now, though).

Anything not supported by the link is...

JMO

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Didn't Fleet White go into the basement earlier and claims he couldn't see -- I know my mind is whirling........

Yes. Said he couldn't find the light switch. Later accused Ramsey of haviing called out before he turned on the light.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer

Just found one, lol, after asking Mr.Gator what it was called.

It's a spliced rope, or rope splice.

Here's a pic. that shows how it's made.

http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/B_S_M/Images/022_Short_Splice_2nd.jpg

And here is one the way I have seen them.

http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2005/winch%20rope/splice14_.jpg

This one is better.

http://www.64thseascouts.org.uk/images/seamanship/knots/eye%20splice.jpg

But these are with actual rope. The cord on JB looks more like a nylon, thick shoe lace type material.

Mimi428

09-04-2006, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

The problem with that theory is that there is no bruising on her right wrist.

I agree with you about the frayed ends. It was the first thing I thought of, too.

Another problem is that in the autopsy photos you can clearly see the other wrist with the rope tied very loosely around the sleeve of the shirt she was wearing.

I believe Walsh mis-spoke.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

MsGator - is this kind of knot someone who sails would use?

The rope Mr.Gator brought me home came from the Marina. He's a Marina Mgr.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

Have you see any of the photos of JonBenet? I can probably find a link if you haven't.

Thanks, rosy. If you have pictures of both ropes, I would appreciate it.

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Yes. Said he couldn't find the light switch. Later accused Ramsey of haviing called out before he turned on the light.

MissOtis, you can read JR interview with the police about finding JB's body here:

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/36.html

They're very enlightening. In one of Patsy's she says all she did was remove JB's black velvet jeans and put her in the long underwear, yet JB's hair, when she was found was in ponytails like she always wore it for bed. (Autopsy report tells how her hair was tied.)

I find that odd. What killer is going to put her hair into ponytails like she wore for bed or even know how she wore it for bed?

JMO

Athena

09-04-2006, 06:14 PM

OK -- it was the first time I had seen this transcript and the comments Walsh made - so was curious. Oh well........

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

Do you know why I asked that question? Know a Ramsey friend who liked to sail? JMO

I know a Ramsey who liked to sail. It's in the 1996 Christmas letter.

JMO

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

Do you know why I asked that question? Know a Ramsey friend who liked to sail? JMO

Ramsey's a sailor. What about Fleet White?

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Didn't Fleet White go into the basement earlier and claims he couldn't see -- I know my mind is whirling........

I think he 'peeked' in, too dark to see and couldn't find the lite switch. The way I understand it, is John opened the door and flipped on the lite switch immediately.

Gregor's Back

09-04-2006, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

Burke was questioned by the police on the 26th for a hour without his parents knowledge. He was questioned again on January 8th and on two other occasions for appx. 6 hours.

IMO - he would have to be a exceptionally intelligent and crafty 9/10 year old to not let anything "slip" during that questioning.
I'm not locked into the theory that Burke killed his sister.

I said in my first post I thought Patsy would have written the note and got John help stage a scene if she thought Burke had done it.

If that's what happened they might have destroyed evidence that could have led to the killer.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

Do you know why I asked that question? Know a Ramsey friend who liked to sail? JMO

Yes, Rosy. I know why you asked.

It's common to use this type of handle on a dock cleat. A way of securing a boat to a dock.

Athena

09-04-2006, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

MissOtis, you can read JR interview with the police about finding JB's body here:

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/36.html

They're very enlightening. In one of Patsy's she says all she did was remove JB's black velvet jeans and put her in the long underwear, yet JB's hair, when she was found was in ponytails like she always wore it for bed. (Autopsy report tells how her hair was tied.)

I find that odd. What killer is going to put her hair into ponytails like she wore for bed or even know how she wore it for bed?

JMO

Sun you keep mentioning her hair. Not to be argumentative but where have you found that her hair was restyled?

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

I think he 'peeked' in, too dark to see and couldn't find the lite switch. The way I understand it, is John opened the door and flipped on the lite switch immediately.

John said he looked in and immediately saw JB, then flipped on the light switch. That's one of the reasons Fleet White became suspicious of him.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 06:18 PM

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Sun you keep mentioning her hair. Not to be argumentative but where have you found that her hair was restyled?

I don't know that it was restyled (one poster told me NOT to use the word "style" for bedtime styling, however).

I just said I didn't think Patsy would let JB go to the White's party with her hair styled the way she wore it for bed and with blue ties when she had on a white and black outfit. Innocent or guilty, Patsy was a perfectionist about dress.

There is more about the hair ties in one of Patsy's police interviews, but I'll have to go find that and get back to you with the link and page number. They are very long.

JMO

sunsplashed

09-04-2006, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Ramsey's a sailor. What about Fleet White?

Here is a link to the Ramseys's 1996 Christmas letter in which it's mentioned that John had been sailing a lot:

http://www.angelfire.com/amiga2/crimesolver/

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer

Yes, Rosy. I know why you asked.

It's common to use this type of handle on a dock cleat. A way of securing a boat to a dock.

What kind of investigation was done on these knots?

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 06:25 PM

The fraying on the ends of the cord look like they were cut with a knife, IMO

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

John said he looked in and immediately saw JB, then flipped on the light switch. That's one of the reasons Fleet White became suspicious of him.

I think it was within a split second of him turning on the lite. It's possible John saw something inordinary as soon as he glanced at the lite colored blanket on the floor, and knew instictively it was his baby.

I'm suspicious of White.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer
The fraying on the ends of the cord look like they were cut with a knife, IMO

What does mrgator say about the knots on the cords on JonBenet. They think the garrotte in this case worked by pulling, rather than rotating.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

What kind of investigation was done on these knots?

Not much, from what I've read.

I picked Mr.Gator's brain a few days ago about the ropes and garotte that were used on JB, and, well, he laughed. Said none of it made any sense.

He's far from an expert but he knows his knots and what they are normally used for.

Put it this way, after recreating the ropes that were used on JB wrists, I joked with him that I was gonna tie him up. He laughed, said if your gonna do that, don't use those. If I'm being tied up for that kind of fun, I don't want to be able to get out.

He said he'd show me how to use a rope to really restrain someone, lmao.

Pruddennce

09-04-2006, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

I can tell you're not in marketing. ANY publicity is GOOD publicity.

I asked you previously how this could possibly harm Air Taser and you didn't answer, so I assume, since you answer all questions, that you just missed it.

How could it possibly harm Air Taser? They weren't involved in the murder of JBR. They weren't a suspect. Their customers, which, for the most part involved law enforcement and private security firms, etc., weren't going to stop buying anything from them.

Independent tests were done which proved that Air Taser was quite truthful.

So, how could they be harmed?

Air Taser is NOT the only maker of stun guns....a simple google will advise...

secondly, it is a known fact that stun gun injuries can result in death....there are different voltages.

IMO, discussing the lead manufacturer and their 'response' regarding their product...well, the point is moot.

who said it was their product when it hasnt been established that it was in fact a stun gun injury (although I personally believe it was)....

there is even a combo stun gun/flashlight. which I believe there was discussion about a mag light being used to crush her skull.

best regards,
Pru

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

I'm suspicious of White.

That's why I asked earlier if the killer might be someone sitting with John, while he waited for the kidnapper to call.

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by sunsplashed

MissOtis, you can read JR interview with the police about finding JB's body here:

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/36.html

They're very enlightening. In one of Patsy's she says all she did was remove JB's black velvet jeans and put her in the long underwear, yet JB's hair, when she was found was in ponytails like she always wore it for bed. (Autopsy report tells how her hair was tied.)

I find that odd. What killer is going to put her hair into ponytails like she wore for bed or even know how she wore it for bed?

JMO

Do we know how JonBenet's hair was fixed when she went to the party? "Puppy dog ears" as they are called in the South are worn by many little girls her age throughout the day as well as when they sleep.:shrug:

IMO

Ocean

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

That's why I asked earlier if the killer might be someone sitting with John, while he waited for the kidnapper to call.

Very suspicious.... imo What kind of friend turns against you at a time like this???
something has always bothered me about that.

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

That's why I asked earlier if the killer might be someone sitting with John, while he waited for the kidnapper to call.

:chicken: :chicken: I have wondered about that many times.

IMO

Ocean

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer

Not much, from what I've read.

I picked Mr.Gator's brain a few days ago about the ropes and garotte that were used on JB, and, well, he laughed. Said none of it made any sense.

He's far from an expert but he knows his knots and what they are normally used for.

Put it this way, after recreating the ropes that were used on JB wrists, I joked with him that I was gonna tie him up. He laughed, said if your gonna do that, don't use those. If I'm being tied up for that kind of fun, I don't want to be able to get out.

He said he'd show me how to use a rope to really restrain someone, lmao.

I am reading my first book on this case (PMPT). I am on pg.496 and investigation of knots hasn't been mentioned yet. Lots of handwriting, though. :shrug:

So, according to mrgator, this is pretty amateur stuff. Not worthy of a sailor.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

:chicken: :chicken: I have wondered about that many times.

IMO

Ocean

If the crime was against John and not JonBenet, this would be where the enjoyment came for the perp.
MOO

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

Have you read anything much about White? Do you want to?
I don't have the links, but someone who posts here has lots of links re: White.

Yes.. I would. Thanks. oh sorry I thought you said you had a link.
anybody out there?

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 06:46 PM

i believe walsh made a mistake. I may not be a coroner or expert on autopsy photos but i think if she was hanging, the marks on her neck would have an upwards angle. I just looked at those awful photos, the marks seem to go straight around her neck.

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by jerzeegirl
i believe walsh made a mistake. I may not be a coroner or expert on autopsy photos but i think if she was hanging, the marks on her neck would have an upwards angle. I just looked at those awful photos, the marks seem to go straight around her neck.

I thought I heard she was hanging by her arms, and had been cut down. (this was years ago)

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

Have you read anything much about White? Do you want to?
I don't have the links, but someone who posts here has lots of links re: White.

Thanks, rosy. And thanks for the link with the photos of the knots.

Jadedblueeyes

09-04-2006, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by jerzeegirl
i believe walsh made a mistake. I may not be a coroner or expert on autopsy photos but i think if she was hanging, the marks on her neck would have an upwards angle. I just looked at those awful photos, the marks seem to go straight around her neck.

Right. I think John was mistaken. JB was never suspended at all imo. The marks would be upward if that were the case just like you said and it certainly is not.

IMO

Ocean

Athena

09-04-2006, 06:50 PM

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

I thought I heard she was hanging by her arms, and had been cut down. (this was years ago)

the rope around her wrists look way to loose to have held her while hanging. I believe she would have fell right away.

JMO

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes

Right. I think John was mistaken. JB was never suspended at all imo. The marks would be upward if that were the case just like you said and it certainly is not.

IMO

Ocean

and she couldnt have hung by her wrists, rope to loose and no marks around her wrist in the photo

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

What does mrgator say about the knots on the cords on JonBenet. They think the garrotte in this case worked by pulling, rather than rotating.

That is correct. The term 'garrotte' in this case is actually, really wrong. It's more like a lasso that was used on her neck, and then the handle was used for pulling. Really makes no sense.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

I am reading my first book on this case (PMPT). I am on pg.496 and investigation of knots hasn't been mentioned yet. Lots of handwriting, though. :shrug:

So, according to mrgator, this is pretty amateur stuff. Not worthy of a sailor.

Not exactly. Someone needs to have knowledge on how to make these types of knots. It's not something that everyone might know.

But he feels that they might be misleading in that they look like they do something that they don't. Restrain.

BUT, as for the knot type wrapping that was done on the rope around the paint stick, it was, in his opinoin, overly done.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:57 PM

Oh my.

http://www.acandyrose.com/08032000fleetwhite.htm

Ginja, from the Justice Watch forum best described the situation below,

"Fleet White asked for an investigation into criminal libel charges against the media. Included in his well-documented evidence of that libel were numerous threads on the topic from the Internet forums, proving his contention that the media's malicious defamatory coverage caused public ridicule and hatred."

"The police launched an investigation into his allegations and found they had merit. Their investigation, together with White's documentation, was submitted to the courts for independent prosecution (outside of the DA's office, due to conflicts of interests). The judge assigned the case ignored it. When White requested the case be taken away from him, Bailin simply closed it."

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer

Not exactly. Someone needs to have knowledge on how to make these types of knots. It's not something that everyone might know.

But he feels that they might be misleading in that they look like they do something that they don't. Restrain.

BUT, as for the knot type wrapping that was done on the rope around the paint stick, it was, in his opinoin, overly done.

So, this was "stagey". For effect more than anything else.

Athena

09-04-2006, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Pruddennce

Air Taser is NOT the only maker of stun guns....a simple google will advise...

secondly, it is a known fact that stun gun injuries can result in death....there are different voltages.

IMO, discussing the lead manufacturer and their 'response' regarding their product...well, the point is moot.

who said it was their product when it hasnt been established that it was in fact a stun gun injury (although I personally believe it was)....

there is even a combo stun gun/flashlight. which I believe there was discussion about a mag light being used to crush her skull.

best regards,
Pru

Yep - I would seriously doubt that a manufacturer of stun guns would want to be tied in any way to a murder of a six-year-old child either.

Athena

09-04-2006, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Oh my.

http://www.acandyrose.com/08032000fleetwhite.htm

Ginja, from the Justice Watch forum best described the situation below,

"Fleet White asked for an investigation into criminal libel charges against the media. Included in his well-documented evidence of that libel were numerous threads on the topic from the Internet forums, proving his contention that the media's malicious defamatory coverage caused public ridicule and hatred."

"The police launched an investigation into his allegations and found they had merit. Their investigation, together with White's documentation, was submitted to the courts for independent prosecution (outside of the DA's office, due to conflicts of interests). The judge assigned the case ignored it. When White requested the case be taken away from him, Bailin simply closed it."

Not for anything could have been just a diversionary tactic too! jmo

Hopeintown

09-04-2006, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Sorry - I'm lost. Where does it say she was wearing a nightgown on Christmas Eve? In both quotes above one says pink little (inaudible) and in the next quote she says pink little again and the police officer adds the words tops and bottoms and she repeats them???

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you.

In reading the transcript, PR doesn't specifically say JB was wearing a nightgown on Christmas Eve, but when she says (below) "And the night before on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that", why would JB put the top and bottoms of her pajamas under her pillow, if that's what was under there? I guess I find that odd.

PR had said JB had worn thermal like pajamas on Christmas morning with a top and bottom.

IMO

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htlm

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Oh my.

http://www.acandyrose.com/08032000fleetwhite.htm

Ginja, from the Justice Watch forum best described the situation below,

"Fleet White asked for an investigation into criminal libel charges against the media. Included in his well-documented evidence of that libel were numerous threads on the topic from the Internet forums, proving his contention that the media's malicious defamatory coverage caused public ridicule and hatred."

"The police launched an investigation into his allegations and found they had merit. Their investigation, together with White's documentation, was submitted to the courts for independent prosecution (outside of the DA's office, due to conflicts of interests). The judge assigned the case ignored it. When White requested the case be taken away from him, Bailin simply closed it."

THANK YOU... Miss O..... Ditto Oh MY. OMG!!! (the letter)
I want to know more about him. Did he take a polygraph test? DNA?

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 07:21 PM

what i got from that interview was,

Patsy was saying that Yes, jonbenet did have a barbie nightgown but she could not say definintely that was hers in the picture. But No, Jonbenet did not wear the barbie nightgown on christmas eve or christmas night. She even acted surprised that it was found by her body.

That was my interpretation of the interview about the nightgown.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

So, this was "stagey". For effect more than anything else.

In my uneducated opinoin, yes.

Here's a discussion link about knots and the garrotte, from the JBR thread.

http://boards.courttv.com/showthread.php?threadid=273368&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Edite to add, your box is full, MissOtis.:D

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 07:30 PM

"The police were told Fleet White sometimes changed JonBenet's panties"
PM/PT pg. 240

OMG...

hohum

09-04-2006, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Yes. Said he couldn't find the light switch. Later accused Ramsey of haviing called out before he turned on the light.

It is odd that Fleet didn't see the white blanket. Even in a darkened room white would still be visible.

Athena

09-04-2006, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you.

In reading the transcript, PR doesn't specifically say JB was wearing a nightgown on Christmas Eve, but when she says (below) "And the night before on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that", why would JB put the top and bottoms of her pajamas under her pillow, if that's what was under there? I guess I find that odd.

PR had said JB had worn thermal like pajamas on Christmas morning with a top and bottom.

IMO

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htlm

Oh OK. But the issue that the BPD was interested in was the Barbie nightgown not the pink whatever it was LOL under her pillow. Maybe she was going to wear them again the next night and decided not to? I don't know if you saw my post a couple of pages back but I used to put my pj's/nightgowns under my pillow to wear again so I personally don't find it odd. My son does that now -- due to laundry issues.

hohum

09-04-2006, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick
"The police were told Fleet White sometimes changed JonBenet's panties"
PM/PT pg. 240

OMG...

Now that is odd. I bet John Ramsey never did.

Athena

09-04-2006, 07:39 PM

Just another interesting tidbit. According to the transcripts during the Wolf v Ramsey suit, Robert Stratbucker, the doctor testifying as an expert for the Air Taser Stun Gun was withdrawn as an expert after the depo:

12 MR. HOFFMAN: -- due to the

13 testimony of the deposition today and to

14 consider not only the witness but also the

15 testimony from the witness and looking at it in

16 relation to my theory of the case, I have

17 decided at this point to withdraw Dr. Robert

18 Stratbucker as an expert witness in this

19 particular case with the understanding, of

20 course, that this testimony, of course, can be

21 sealed if counsel for the defense would like

22 that and there will certainly be no either

23 public reference to any of Dr. Stratbucker's

24 theories to this Rule 26 report, to any of the

25 things that he stated today, any conversations

00082

1 he may have had with me formally or informally,

2 or any other communication involving his theory

3 of whether or not stun gun -- a stun gun was

4 used on JonBenet Ramsey.

5 MR. WOOD: Well, let me say this on

6 behalf of the Ramseys. We do not seek for

7 this testimony to be sealed. I mean, we don't

8 have any plans to use it.

9 I mean, the bottom line is with no

10 conditions whatsoever, do you formally and

11 unequivocally withdraw Dr. Stratbucker as an

12 expert witness in this case?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, I do, formally

14 and without any conditions.

15 MR. WOOD: And, likewise, will you

16 stipulate that under no circumstances will you

17 reengage him in any fashion with respect to the

18 Wolf v. Ramsey case in the future?

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely. I will

20 not reengage him in any way.

21 MR. WOOD: With that stipulation,

22 then there is obviously no reason for us to

23 continue the deposition today. So the

24 deposition is terminated in light of the

25 witness' withdrawal by counsel for plaintiff.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/05302002Depo-RobertStratbuckerMd.htm

hohum

09-04-2006, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Sun you keep mentioning her hair. Not to be argumentative but where have you found that her hair was restyled?

There is a picture somewhere of JB riding her new bicycle on Christmas Day. If you can find it see how her hair is fixed in that picture though it doesn't mean a hill of beans either way. More twirling over nothing.

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Oh OK. But the issue that the BPD was interested in was the Barbie nightgown not the pink whatever it was LOL under her pillow. Maybe she was going to wear them again the next night and decided not to? I don't know if you saw my post a couple of pages back but I used to put my pj's/nightgowns under my pillow to wear again so I personally don't find it odd. My son does that now -- due to laundry issues.

Growing up, my sisters and I always put our pj's under our pillows and I am in my 50's . I bet it might be more common than one might think. Just an aside as to why they might have been under her pillow.

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by hohum

Now that is odd. I bet John Ramsey never did.

very odd. I cant think of time any male outside of family changed my daughters panties!

This guy is my #1 suspect. He had keys to the house too.

Athena

09-04-2006, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by jerzeegirl
what i got from that interview was,

Patsy was saying that Yes, jonbenet did have a barbie nightgown but she could not say definintely that was hers in the picture. But No, Jonbenet did not wear the barbie nightgown on christmas eve or christmas night. She even acted surprised that it was found by her body.

That was my interpretation of the interview about the nightgown.

Yes - she asked to see another photo because it wasn't that clear to her through a platic bag and the photo but they (BPD) did not have one.

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick
"The police were told Fleet White sometimes changed JonBenet's panties"
PM/PT pg. 240

OMG...

whoa, I find this extremely odd! wow is all I can say. I have daughters and I can tell you that male friends of ours have never, ever changed their panties. I need to read about this.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick
"The police were told Fleet White sometimes changed JonBenet's panties"
PM/PT pg. 240

OMG...

Very questionable, WOW.

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 07:51 PM

I read the page 240 in PM/PT and the statement that the blood stain in her panties was hers and "anothers". My question is and I might be reading it incorrectly, is can they say the stain is someone else's blood or just someone else's DNA...or can they separate the matter?

Pruddennce

09-04-2006, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Athena
Just another interesting tidbit. According to the transcripts during the Wolf v Ramsey suit, Robert Stratbucker, the doctor testifying as an expert for the Air Taser Stun Gun was withdrawn as an expert after the depo:

12 MR. HOFFMAN: -- due to the

13 testimony of the deposition today and to

14 consider not only the witness but also the

15 testimony from the witness and looking at it in

16 relation to my theory of the case, I have

17 decided at this point to withdraw Dr. Robert

18 Stratbucker as an expert witness in this

19 particular case with the understanding, of

20 course, that this testimony, of course, can be

21 sealed if counsel for the defense would like

22 that and there will certainly be no either

23 public reference to any of Dr. Stratbucker's

24 theories to this Rule 26 report, to any of the

25 things that he stated today, any conversations

00082

1 he may have had with me formally or informally,

2 or any other communication involving his theory

3 of whether or not stun gun -- a stun gun was

4 used on JonBenet Ramsey.

5 MR. WOOD: Well, let me say this on

6 behalf of the Ramseys. We do not seek for

7 this testimony to be sealed. I mean, we don't

8 have any plans to use it.

9 I mean, the bottom line is with no

10 conditions whatsoever, do you formally and

11 unequivocally withdraw Dr. Stratbucker as an

12 expert witness in this case?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, I do, formally

14 and without any conditions.

15 MR. WOOD: And, likewise, will you

16 stipulate that under no circumstances will you

17 reengage him in any fashion with respect to the

18 Wolf v. Ramsey case in the future?

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely. I will

20 not reengage him in any way.

21 MR. WOOD: With that stipulation,

22 then there is obviously no reason for us to

23 continue the deposition today. So the

24 deposition is terminated in light of the

25 witness' withdrawal by counsel for plaintiff.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/05302002Depo-RobertStratbuckerMd.htm

respectfully snipped....

I think the major blunder was the autopsy...the marks were simply noted....they were injuries but nothing further to identify how the injuries were caused.

then...everything is after the fact....she is buried--then it becomes important? it should have been important during her autopsy....I dont get it...

best regards,
Pru

Athena

09-04-2006, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

very odd. I cant think of time any male outside of family changed my daughters panties!

This guy is my #1 suspect. He had keys to the house too.

This bothers me also. I don't think the BPD throughly investigated him either because he appeared to be cooperative from the beginning -- this is JMO although here it does say he was cleared by an Internet poster? I'm looking for a link to the woman that brought him to the attention of the BPD as being involved in this "sex ring" also because her therapist was infuriated that they would not believe her. I also recall reading that although she named John Ramsey she recanted and said he looked like someone else:

"Friendly" Intruder Theories

Fleet White, Jr.

Incriminating Evidence
Nancy Krebs reported that as a child, she had been the victim of sexual abuse by distant relatives Fleet White, Jr. and his father (see family tree), but also by John Ramsey. She further reported being prostituted for pornography. Police took this story seriously enough to interview Nancy, but her story now generally has been widely discredited at least as it relates to John Ramsey's involvement. Internet poster The Punisher has done extensive research on Lee Hill and Ward Churchill and concluded that the Nancy Krebs story was a fabrication to discredit the FBI.

Transcripts of her February 22, 2000 interview are here: Part One; Part Two; Part Three; Part Four; Part Five; Part Six|. These are in pdf format. A version in html is here
Transcripts of her May 10, 2000 interview are here: Part One; Part Two
An interview conducted by Mary Suma (Mame) with Nancy Krebs on March 10, 2000 is here.
People disagree about whether she has provided credible evidence against Fleet White. But apart from the Krebs story, some focus on Fleet White as a suspect because:
He was in the house in the early morning of December 26 and was with John Ramsey when he found JBR's body, giving him the opportunity to possibly have moved or framed the body.
He became estranged from the Ramseys shortly after JBR's funeral.
In the opinion of some, his behavior following JBR's death has been "strange."

Exculpatory Evidence

On April 16, 1997, City of Boulder issued a press release stating: "In response to media inquiries and to clarify inaccurate statements, Boulder Police Chief Tom Koby has the following statement: “Mr. and Mrs. Fleet White, Jr. are not suspects in the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation. They are considered key witnesses. The Boulder Police Department appreciates the full cooperation they have received from the Whites since the beginning of their investigation. I feel this response is necessary due to the inaccurate portrayal of Mr. and Mrs. White in certain media publications.”
"Internet poster Jayelles has deduced from documents shown in the Tracey documentary that Fleet White and Priscilla White have been cleared on DNA."

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Intruder%20Theories

hohum

09-04-2006, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Mimi428

You got a link to an official source for that? Something from the coroner who performed the autopsy, or the like?

Bet not.

Look at the photos and use your good southern common sense. Those marks, two sets, same distance apart (3.5 centimeters) did not come from pebbles and/or hooks as people have fumbled around trying to explain them. They are the same set of marks, two different places, same distance apart. The police were obviously embarrassed that it took Lou Smit to figure out what the marks were. Steve Thomas sure didn't figure it out.

And BTW for the poster who keeps quoting someone from Air Taser, Lou Smit never said it was an Air Taser stun gun. But the rep from Air Taser didn't waste any time making an announcement to disassociate his company from the murder.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0105/28/lkl.00.html

Do you have any pics showing a hook that would have caused those marks. Any pics of pebbles that caused them. Bet not.

hohum

09-04-2006, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

very odd. I cant think of time any male outside of family changed my daughters panties!

This guy is my #1 suspect. He had keys to the house too.

And began acting very odd soon after the murder. I wonder if the White's still live in Boulder? You know Fleet was charged with contempt of court re this case.

Athena

09-04-2006, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

I think he 'peeked' in, too dark to see and couldn't find the lite switch. The way I understand it, is John opened the door and flipped on the lite switch immediately.

And White felt her foot and knew she was dead. Looking for a link for this too so for now jmo

nutmeg22

09-04-2006, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by hohum

And began acting very odd soon after the murder. I wonder if the White's still live in Boulder? You know Fleet was held in contempt of court re this case.

I have not read enough yet to know the answer to this question, but did LE take a long, hard look at Fleet White? I know someone asked about his DNA being taken. was it? Since he was all over the house, his fingerprints would naturally appear.

jmgos1

09-04-2006, 08:02 PM

Page 226---Perfect Murder Perfect Town

...... They soon discovered what the media did not know. The cord tied around JonBenet's neck was not a classical garrote in which both ends of the cord are attached to a turning device such as a stick. In this case, the cord had been placed around JonBenet's neck like a noose, the cord pulled through a knot, and a stick tied to the cord 17 inches from the knot.

jmgos1

09-04-2006, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick
"The police were told Fleet White sometimes changed JonBenet's panties"
PM/PT pg. 240

OMG...

And this didn't bother Patsy? Or she is casting suspicion?

hohum

09-04-2006, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by nutmeg22

I have not read enough yet to know the answer to this question, but did LE take a long, hard look at Fleet White? I know someone asked about his DNA being taken. was it? Since he was all over the house, his fingerprints would naturally appear.

"On October 26, 2001, Court TV news reported that Fleet White, the former Ramsey friend and neighbor who was present when John Ramsey found his daughter's body in the basement of their home in 1996, had ignored subpoenas to appear in court for a bribery case related to JonBenet's death. As a consequence, White was charged with contempt of court and given a 30-day jail sentence.

The subpoenas related to the trial of attorney Thomas Miller, who was charged with commercial bribery after one of his clients attempted to buy a copy of the JonBenet ransom note.

Miller was later acquitted.

In his defense, Fleet White told the court that he had "ignored subpoenas in the best interest of the unsolved murder investigation, the justice system and his family."

That last paragrah is total BS. What is the real reason White didn't respond to the subpoenas?

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Athena

And White felt her foot and knew she was dead. Looking for a link for this too so for now jmo
I read where Alex Hunter was curious about White's behavior... why he was so "f***in angry". (quote) PMPT
and the rumor even the Ramsey's suspected him.
I am getting the impression from the book that he went over board to get off the suspect list.

hohum

09-04-2006, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by jmgos1

And this didn't bother Patsy? Or she is casting suspicion?

Is Patsy the one who said Fleet changed JBs undies? I have loaned my books on the case out to a friend.

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 08:12 PM

she also has a similar mark on her face by her ear, there is only one circle. Its alot bigger than the set on her side. I wonder what this one is also.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by Pruddennce

respectfully snipped....

I think the major blunder was the autopsy...the marks were simply noted....they were injuries but nothing further to identify how the injuries were caused.

then...everything is after the fact....she is buried--then it becomes important? it should have been important during her autopsy....I dont get it...

best regards,
Pru

Yeah, woulda, shoulda, coulda.

Just like the fruit or vegetable that might be pineapple. What kind of training does a pathologist get on food content? Is that a special area of studying all kinds of varying foods, or is it just a guess on appearance alone.:shrug:

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 08:15 PM

More snippets about the case are on NG Headline news right now.

jmgos1

09-04-2006, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick
"The police were told Fleet White sometimes changed JonBenet's panties"
PM/PT pg. 240

OMG...

Page 240 in my copy of PM/PT talks about Home Depot

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by hohum

Is Patsy the one who said Fleet changed JBs undies? I have loaned my books on the case out to a friend.

No, Priscilla White.

Months later. Patsy's sister Pam told tv reporters she knew Fleet White had changed her neice's clothes. Weird.

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

No, Priscilla White.

Months later. Patsy's sister Pam told tv reporters she knew Fleet White had changed her neice's clothes. Weird.

i remember patsy stating in her interview that because fleet wasnt really working, he had both her children quite often. But that she trusted him and he was a great father.

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by jmgos1

Page 240 in my copy of PM/PT talks about Home Depot

p. 240...middle of the page... look again.

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by drip~drop1

Hi TCH! LTNS!:seeya:

After Patsy's death one of her sisters was on LKL (I think it was) and said that extra packages of undies in various sizes were kept at the house just in case a guest needed a pair.
Since I don't have a link, I'll just MOO it.

Extra panties for guests?

Patsy's explanation was that the size 12 were a gift for her niece. JB liked them so much, Patsy bought the same ones for JB in size 6.

Patsy said she put the panties upstairs in JB's drawer because she says she didn't get to send them to her niece & so they were "free game."

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by jmgos1

And this didn't bother Patsy? Or she is casting suspicion?
I think the Ramsey's did suspect Fleet White. But White was a Thomas supporter... got cleared. hummmmmmm...:confused:

Holly

09-04-2006, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

p. 240...middle of the page... look again. Hi, DixieChick!

I sent you a PM on how to use vB code but it doesn't seem to have been read.

Did you choose the option to be notified if you have a new message? If not, or if you have me on IGNORE, you probably haven't seen the message.

Maybe one of your friends will alert you.

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 08:34 PM

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by hohum

"On October 26, 2001, Court TV news reported that Fleet White, the former Ramsey friend and neighbor who was present when John Ramsey found his daughter's body in the basement of their home in 1996, had ignored subpoenas to appear in court for a bribery case related to JonBenet's death. As a consequence, White was charged with contempt of court and given a 30-day jail sentence.

The subpoenas related to the trial of attorney Thomas Miller, who was charged with commercial bribery after one of his clients attempted to buy a copy of the JonBenet ransom note.

Miller was later acquitted.

In his defense, Fleet White told the court that he had "ignored subpoenas in the best interest of the unsolved murder investigation, the justice system and his family."

That last paragrah is total BS. What is the real reason White didn't respond to the subpoenas?

Wasn't this 4 years after the case and he said he had no knowledge about what a crooked lawyer trying to buy the note & by this time he didn't want to be dragged into the Ramsey's problems unless it was a trial that was about JB's murder.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer

Edite to add, your box is full, MissOtis.:D

It isn't now, msgator. Thanks! :D

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by jmgos1

Page 240 in my copy of PM/PT talks about Home Depot
sorry... its the paper back issue.

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Holly
Hi, DixieChick!

I sent you a PM on how to use vB code but it doesn't seem to have been read.

Did you choose the option to be notified if you have a new message? If not, or if you have me on IGNORE, you probably haven't seen the message.

Maybe one of your friends will alert you.

Thanks Holly... sorry I didn't know anything about the PM's
no one is on ignore. I dont even know how. lol...

jmgos1

09-04-2006, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

I think the Ramsey's did suspect Fleet White. But White was a Thomas supporter... got cleared. hummmmmmm...:confused:

if my memory serves me the Whites were second on the Ramseys list of suspects after the housekeeper. jmo

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by hohum

Oh do please give us that link where Lou Smit dropped the stun gun theory.

Of course Air Taser did not want to be associated with such a notorious crime. That kind of publicity is never good.

Even IF a stun gun was used on JB, it wouldn't have left a fatal wound. It's unlikely that the type of person who would buy a stun gun would be reluctant to buy an Air Taser just because someone might have used one on JB.

If anything, Air Taser might have seen sales go up as Lou Smit gave them so much free publicity.

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

I think he 'peeked' in, too dark to see and couldn't find the lite switch. The way I understand it, is John opened the door and flipped on the lite switch immediately.

Many of the light switches in the house were in unusual places. Not right near the door where you would expect them, so you'd have to know where they were to turn them on without fumbling around.

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

Even IF a stun gun was used on JB, it wouldn't have left a fatal wound. It's unlikely that the type of person who would buy a stun gun would be reluctant to buy an Air Taser just because someone might have used one on JB.

If anything, Air Taser might have seen sales go up as Lou Smit gave them so much free publicity.

i agree, isnt that what stunguns and air tazers are suppose to do? Incapacitate? even If used on JB, it did what its made to do.

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

Many of the light switches in the house were in unusual places. Not right near the door where you would expect them, so you'd have to know where they were to turn them on without fumbling around.
That is totally understandable. What isn't imo, is accusing John because he did see something.... and flipped the switch immediately and started screaming. Perhaps John is more familiar with the room... and of course he is... or maybe White knew her body was there and ignored it, for John to find. jmo

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 09:02 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DixieChick
[B]"The police were told Fleet White sometimes changed JonBenet's panties"
PM/PT pg. 240

JB didn't wipe herself properly when she used the bathroom & used to call out for a grown up to come wipe her.

Sometimes when JB was over playing with Daphne, her underwear was dirty & she borrowed a pair of Daphne's & Fleet carried her dirty ones home in a bag.

msgatorslayer

09-04-2006, 09:03 PM

Very interesting. This is the most well written post I have seen in reference to the staging of the cords. Kudos to the writer for explaining it so well.

Worth the read, IMO

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6751

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by jmgos1

if my memory serves me the Whites were second on the Ramseys list of suspects after the housekeeper. jmo

After the White's behavior, I would be also!

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

That is totally understandable. What isn't imo, is accusing John because he did see something.... and flipped the switch immediately and started screaming. Perhaps John is more familiar with the room... and of course he is... or maybe White knew her body was there and ignored it, for John to find. jmo

I think the question is how far John was inside the room before he reacted.

There was a wall in the way & he had to take a couple of steps into the room before he could see the body.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 09:06 PM

I may regret posting this. I am sure I read this in PMPT, but I will never find it again now. Maybe someone else knows something about it. It is mentioned at least twice. JonBenet did not like to wipe herself after going to the bathroom. She demanded that someone else do it and would sit on the toilet and call for someone to come. Anyone. This alarmed me, when I read it.

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 09:12 PM

I think the break in the friendship came about down in Atlanta when the Ramseys still had not gone in for formal interviews. People chose sides & the Whites were ostracized from the Ramsey camp. And it went downhill from there.

I believe all the Ramsey friends & business associates fully cooperated from the very beginning & gave samples to police right away.

I don't even know that any friends called lawyers. Does anyone know if the Whites refused to speak to investigators or lawyered up? :shrug:

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

I think the question is how far John was inside the room before he reacted.

There was a wall in the way & he had to take a couple of steps into the room before he could see the body.

He was far enough to notice something that shouldn't be there!

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I may regret posting this. I am sure I read this in PMPT, but I will never find it again now. Maybe someone else knows something about it. It is mentioned at least twice. JonBenet did not like to wipe herself after going to the bathroom. She demanded that someone else do it and would sit on the toilet and call for someone to come. Anyone. This alarmed me, when I read it.

I just mentioned this also. lol I couldn't remember where I read it either.

Athena

09-04-2006, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DixieChick
[B]"The police were told Fleet White sometimes changed JonBenet's panties"
PM/PT pg. 240

JB didn't wipe herself properly when she used the bathroom & used to call out for a grown up to come wipe her.

Sometimes when JB was over playing with Daphne, her underwear was dirty & she borrowed a pair of Daphne's & Fleet carried her dirty ones home in a bag.

Honestly I have always had my children's playmates over and I never would never wipe a child. I don't know what anyone else would do but I would tell the child to do the best they could. Both of my children were taught NEVER to let anyone near their private parts no matter what. Rather wash dirty undies with "streaks" than give someone permission to touch them. jmo

hohum

09-04-2006, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

No, Priscilla White.

Months later. Patsy's sister Pam told tv reporters she knew Fleet White had changed her neice's clothes. Weird.

Thanks. Another poster just said that Patsy might be casting suspicion on Fleet. And it wasn't even Patsy. More innuendo fueling the gossip.

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom
I think the break in the friendship came about down in Atlanta when the Ramseys still had not gone in for formal interviews. People chose sides & the Whites were ostracized from the Ramsey camp. And it went downhill from there.

I believe all the Ramsey friends & business associates fully cooperated from the very beginning & gave samples to police right away.

I don't even know that any friends called lawyers. Does anyone know if the Whites refused to speak to investigators or lawyered up? :shrug:

The White's sided with the police in their suspects. interesting... not what friends do.

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

He was far enough to notice something that shouldn't be there!

But some people questioned whether he reacted BEFORE he was in far enough.

Of course, this all happens SO fast that people (Fleet White) really can't pinpoint the exact timing and exactly where the person was standing.

Fleet had checked that room earlier but couldn't find the light switch & left.

The police checked the room but didn't notice the little wooden latch on top that locked the door & never checked that room.

John unlocked the door, walked in & saw her.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by msgatorslayer
Very interesting. This is the most well written post I have seen in reference to the staging of the cords. Kudos to the writer for explaining it so well.

Worth the read, IMO

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6751

Hmmm. So the garrotte is bs, too? She died from the blow to the head?

karengary

09-04-2006, 09:21 PM

I dont find it curious that John Ramsey closed the window in the basement. I think we all lock doors and windows on instinct. After all not all of us know how we would react under such a crises. Unless you are a cop or lawyer, who knows that everything must be investigated, you react as best you can. His daughter was missing and his family was not safe.

hohum

09-04-2006, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

Wasn't this 4 years after the case and he said he had no knowledge about what a crooked lawyer trying to buy the note & by this time he didn't want to be dragged into the Ramsey's problems unless it was a trial that was about JB's murder.

The point is not all of Fleet's blah blah blahs, it's the fact that he chose to ignore a court subpoena. A violation of the law which he seems to think he is above. He has a nasty attitude as evidenced by his behavior in Atlanta. Most inappropriate.

hohum

09-04-2006, 09:24 PM

hohum

09-04-2006, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets

Hmmm. So the garrotte is bs, too? She died from the blow to the head?

No, she died from strangulation. The blow to the head came right as she took her last breath. A nasty finale by the killer to what had gone before.

Athena

09-04-2006, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

Extra panties for guests?

Patsy's explanation was that the size 12 were a gift for her niece. JB liked them so much, Patsy bought the same ones for JB in size 6.

Patsy said she put the panties upstairs in JB's drawer because she says she didn't get to send them to her niece & so they were "free game."

This is what I meant LI Mom re: statements without supporting links. I have yet to see one. Sorry but if you notice if someone makes a statement without one they ask or reference the pages in a book that they are taking them from.

Anyway there is a transcript on this thread re: the underwear that you are referring to and she did not believe she had bought a pack of these underwear for JBR. Patsy bought them for her niece and JBR picked them out as a gift.
2 Q. Which of those two trips did you

3 purchase the Bloomi's?

4 A. The first trip.

5 Q. Was it something that was selected

6 by JonBenet?

7 A. I believe so.

8 Q. Was it your intention, when you

9 purchased those, for those to be for her,

10 not for some third party as a gift?

11 A. I bought some things that were

12 gifts and some things for her. So I

13 don't --

14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is

15 your best recollection that the purchase of

16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the

17 week, was something that you bought for her,

18 whether it was just I am buying underwear

19 for my kids or these are special, here's a

20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your

21 intention that she would wear those?

22 A. Well, I think that I bought a

23 package of the -- they came in a package of

24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

25 I think I bought a package to give to my

00811 niece.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by hohum

The point is not all of Fleet's blah blah blahs, it's the fact that he chose to ignore a court subpoena. A violation of the law which he seems to think he is above. He has a nasty attitude as evidenced by his behavior in Atlanta. Most inappropriate.

Sounds like the Whites & the Ramseys were 2 peas in a pod.

Thinking he's above the law AND nasty when provoked.

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by karengary
I dont find it curious that John Ramsey closed the window in the basement. I think we all lock doors and windows on instinct. After all not all of us know how we would react under such a crises. Unless you are a cop or lawyer, who knows that everything must be investigated, you react as best you can. His daughter was missing and his family was not safe.

What makes the story suspicious is that Ramsey didn't mention until much later, when he and Patsy were being blamed, that he had found the window open. On the morning of the 26th, before Ramsey claimed to have closed the window, Sgt. Reichenbach looked at the house from the outside and so no signs of possible entry and Fleet White looked at that same window from the inside of the basement. White said he remembered it being unlatched but did not remember it being open.

Athena

09-04-2006, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

But some people questioned whether he reacted BEFORE he was in far enough.

Of course, this all happens SO fast that people (Fleet White) really can't pinpoint the exact timing and exactly where the person was standing.

Fleet had checked that room earlier but couldn't find the light switch & left.

The police checked the room but didn't notice the little wooden latch on top that locked the door & never checked that room.

John unlocked the door, walked in & saw her.

The light was on the right side of the wall and John turned it on as he entered the room. It was Fleet who said he did not.

Also who are "some people reacted"? The only one with him was Fleet.

http://hellhole_photos.tripod.com/windowlessroom.htm

Edited to add link to interview re: light

ST: And when you moved to that cellar room door to open the door, did you move the tag on the top of the door?

JR: Yeah.

ST: And did you open the door?

JR: Yeah.

ST: And did you open the door?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: And was the light on or off?

ST: I think it was off.

ST: And did you turn the light on?

JR: Probably, I don’t remember specifically turning it on, but probably would have, it’s a dark room.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

hohum

09-04-2006, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

Sounds like the Whites & the Ramseys were 2 peas in a pod.

Thinking he's above the law AND nasty when provoked.

I don't see the similarities. And I certainly would not want to be a pea in a pod with the White's. :flamemad:

MissOtisRegrets

09-04-2006, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by LI_Mom

I just mentioned this also. lol I couldn't remember where I read it either.

lol I saw your post after I had posted mine. The print in that book is too small for my eyes. I decided I'd rather apologize for not having a link than try to find it. It made my blood run cold, when I read that. Patsy should have put a stop to that practice right away.

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Athena

Honestly I have always had my children's playmates over and I never would never wipe a child. I don't know what anyone else would do but I would tell the child to do the best they could. Both of my children were taught NEVER to let anyone near their private parts no matter what. Rather wash dirty undies with "streaks" than give someone permission to touch them. jmo

That's how I feel also.

If my child had problems getting clean, maybe I'd send them over with some wipes to make it easier to clean up & hope for the best.

But since Fleet was taking back soiled panties, it's logical that HE was NOT helping her wipe. He or his wife, probably just told her to borrow a pair of Daphne's panties and change.

:shrug:

hohum

09-04-2006, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

The police did not check the room JonBenet was found in.

What a surprise. I guess they would still be looking for the body if not for John.

jerzeegirl

09-04-2006, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Athena

The light was on the right side of the wall and John turned it on as he entered the room. It was Fleet who said he did not.

Also who are "some people reacted"? The only one with him was Fleet.

http://hellhole_photos.tripod.com/windowlessroom.htm

Edited to add link to interview re: light

ST: And when you moved to that cellar room door to open the door, did you move the tag on the top of the door?

JR: Yeah.

ST: And did you open the door?

JR: Yeah.

ST: And did you open the door?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: And was the light on or off?

ST: I think it was off.

ST: And did you turn the light on?

JR: Probably, I don’t remember specifically turning it on, but probably would have, it’s a dark room.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

JR: Yeah.

ST: And did you open the door?

JR: Yeah.

ST: And did you open the door?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: And was the light on or off?

ST: I think it was off.

ST: And did you turn the light on?

JR: Probably, I don’t remember specifically turning it on, but probably would have, it’s a dark room.

ST: From the time you opened the door of the cellar room, when did you discovered your daughter, was this a fraction of a second or a matter of seconds, give me an idea.

JR: Instant. I mean, as soon as I opened the door I saw the white blanket. And I knew, I just saw a blanket, and I knew that was our, you know.

ST: and was it then you instantaneously opened the door, saw the blanket, you may or may not have turned the light on?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: You don’t know? In all fairness.

JR: In fact, I don’t remember.

LI_Mom

09-04-2006, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by rosyredrobin

The police did not check the room JonBenet was found in.

"The police checked the room but didn't notice the little wooden latch on top that locked the door & never checked that room."

I should have said 'the police checked the door' but I think my meaning was obvious when I ended with ""never checked that room."

Hopeintown

09-04-2006, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by DixieChick

The White's sided with the police in their suspects. interesting... not what friends do.

But, that's not really fair to say in this case is it?

After all, we were not there, the White's were. They are the one's who were present on Christmas Eve, they saw JonBenet then, their memories were fresh the next day when JonBenet was found murdered in her own home.

The White's were cleared, and became witnesses.

IMO

DixieChick

09-04-2006, 09:45 PM