Troubling Details: garland, shoe laces, footprints, ponytails, barbie nightgown, etc

[Athena]

Crime Scene Inventory:

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-inventory.htm

[bullmoose]

Just think of why John Ramsey shut the window; how about because he had no idea it was part of a crime scene, that wasn't evident until later. That to me shows a lack of guilt, I would think him to have been dumfounded at what had happened. I know I would have been. bullmoose

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I agree that an intruder would have fled from a first floor door and left it unlocked.

I don't believe there was an intruder.

But, why would one (or both) of the Ramseys, in staging, not have unlocked/opened a door?

:shrug:

JMO

There was the broken window in the basement that I believe was staged to make it look as if that's how the intruder gained entrance or possibly left. Then, there would be no open door to be staged as JB was never removed from the home.

IMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


So many questions Sun; that's why I don't believe it to be the Ramseys. Too many vivid details left wide open that pointed to them rather than from them.

John finding JB, admitting he was in the basement earlier, closing the window (which indicates to me that he did not give it a second thought - other than he went in the basement , did not notice anything maybe thought it was cold), the flashlight in plain sight, the bowl of pineapple, the practice note, the brutal strangling, Patsy's art supplies, the white blanket, admitting there were no open doors or windows, their pad, their pen, the $118K, no duct tape and cord found and lack of motive (ok I ran out for now) - just does not make sense. :shrug:

Well, that's a lot, Athena. :) It's so puzzling. I would have thought the Ramseys (either or both) would have staged the scene to point away from them more.

But then I don't see how an intruder could have come through that window.

I admit, I'm very puzzled. Everything can be seen both ways in this case.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


There was the broken window in the basement that I believe was staged to make it look as if that's how the intruder gained entrance or possibly left. Then, there would be no open door to be staged as JB was never removed from the home.

IMO

But if someone were staging, don't you think an open door would have made more sense?

:shrug:

JMO

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


But if someone were staging, don't you think an open door would have made more sense?

:shrug:

JMO

No, I don't sun.

If JonBenet had actually been removed from the home, yes.

But, she wasen't.

IMO

[cantstandnuts]

Originally posted by harz
JonBenet was 6 yrs old, Bruke was 9-10, they wetted their bed at these ages? Its does makes me think something wrong was going on, especially during Xmas as if something fright them by going bathroom or something. I dont blame Thomas (the detective?) My daughter is age 7 now, and she hadnt wet her bed for years or I don't recall she ever does after she stopped wearing diappers around age 2. I remember my friend's son was molested at age 5 or 6, he wetted his pants. When he was temporary sent to foster home by CFS for a week then his real mother picked him up to bring him back home, she noticed his pants got wet. He was confused and frighten of everything happened to him. So I dont buy Ramsey's kids at their ages wetted their beds is a normal thing.

Bedwetting is not always indicative of something psychological. Sometimes, the bladder just isn't mature enough to go all night without emptying and since children tend to be heavy sleepers, they wet the bed.
You're right that sometimes the issue is psychologically related, but many times it isn't, so you can't automatically assume something is wrong in the home or that the children are frightened. Also, Burke was a young bedwetter, he wasn't still doing it at age 9.

[cantstandnuts]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


There was the broken window in the basement that I believe was staged to make it look as if that's how the intruder gained entrance or possibly left. Then, there would be no open door to be staged as JB was never removed from the home.

IMO

IIRC, that window was broken for some time before the crime, so it wouldn't be evidence of staging.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by cantstandnuts


IIRC, that window was broken for some time before the crime, so it wouldn't be evidence of staging.

Was it broken, or was it repaired?

In this 1997 interview with Patsy, in reading about the broken window something doesn't ring true. JR asks PR to come all the way back from out of town because he lost his key when there was other people that supposedly had keys to the home. Then, JR breaks the window and leaves all that glass on the floor waiting for PR to come home and clean it all up knowing his children play down there? No, I don't buy that.

Then in the very last line of the interview it sounds like she ALMOST remembers "yeah, uh, I can't remember".

I hope the BPD verified her story with Linda, and if that window was replaced by someone other than the Ramsey's.

IMO

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/35.html

TT: When did John break that window inthe basement?

PR: He, I don't know exactly when he did it, but I think it was last summer sometime when we, the kids and I, were at the lake.

TT: In Charlevoix?

PR: In Charlevoix and he told me to come back from out of town or whatever and he didn't have a key and the only way he could get in was to break the window.

TT: Okay

PR: The little, um, like door, little window to the basement there

TT: He had to lift the grate out of the way to, to get in there.

PR: Yeah, that's the one, um hum.

TT: Okay. Any reason why that one wasn't replaced or the pane wasn't fixed or anything?

PR: No, I don't know whether I fixed it or didn't fix it. I can't remember even trying to, remember that, um, I remember when I got back, uh, in the fall, you know...

TT: Um hum

PR: ... uh, went down there and cleaned up all the glass. TT: Okay

TT: I mean, I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean, I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there.

TT: Um hum

PR: And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and, uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere.

TT: Okay

PR: And I cleaned all that up and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there.

TT: To get all the glass

PR: In the fall, yeah, cause it was just little, you know, pieces, big pieces, everything.

TT: Do you ever recall getting that window replaced?

PR: Yeah, uh, I can't remember. I just can't remember whether I got it replaced or not.

[cantstandnuts]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


Was it broken, or was it repaired?

In this 1997 interview with Patsy, in reading about the broken window something doesn't ring true. JR asks PR to come all the way back from out of town because he lost his key when there was other people that supposedly had keys to the home. Then, JR breaks the window and leaves all that glass on the floor waiting for PR to come home and clean it all up knowing his children play down there? No, I don't buy that.

(snip)



I apologize in advance because I don't have a link, but I seem to recall the window was still broken, hadn't ever been repaired.
And I don't find it unusual that he left the glass there; they (Patsy and the kids) weren't coming home until the fall according to her that's when they came back, and this happened in the summer. He's a business man and I figure he probably was a physically lazy one at that, LOL. He had a maid, why would he clean up the mess?

[harz]

Originally posted by Hopeintown

TT: Do you ever recall getting that window replaced?

PR: Yeah, uh, I can't remember. I just can't remember whether I got it replaced or not.

Strange, I would remember and get window fixed right away to avoid leftover broken glasses spreading around, prevent bugs & animals coming in house, plus cold air pouring into. My grandparents had big house, when they had basement window broken, it was still very important to get it fix right away and clean up glasses.
PR's comments makes me feel sticky about it.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally posted by harz


Strange, I would remember and get window fixed right away to avoid leftover broken glasses spreading around, prevent bugs & animals coming in house, plus cold air pouring into. My grandparents had big house, when they had basement window broken, it was still very important to get it fix right away and clean up glasses.
PR's comments makes me feel sticky about it.

The basement was hot anyway and she'd gotten the broken glass up so I don't think there a pressing need. Also it was below ground and not visible from the street. I wonder if the Ramseys knew the grates weren't attached.

It's easy enough to test and see if the break was old or new so I assume BPD did that.

If it was an old break that happened under the circumstances described by the Ramseys I think all that tells us is they weren't big sticklers for detail work.

[harz]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar

The basement was hot anyway

whoa, whoa....wait a min. That would mean the spiders were active if the basement was hot on 25-26th right? That would support intruder theory right? Thats strange, someone else here, I don't recalled who, posted that it was too cold in basement that mooted intruder theory agruements because the detectives found spider webs by the broken window.... :shrug:

[bullmoose]

I have no idea of what kind of heating system the Ramsey house had, whether it be steam, hot water heat, or forced air, or whatever. Would the basement be heated to some extant no matter what system was use if the furnace was down there? Of course it would, otherwise the pipes conceivably could freeze, so there would have been some warmth down there. That heat would be going out the broken windowat a fair clip, which would also explain why the snow was melted by the window. It could also explain why a spider might be active spinning fresh webs on a cold day. As for not getting it fixed since the summer, I know people like that, they just forget what would drive me crazy to get fixed. bullmoose

[diplomat]

Originally posted by cantstandnuts


He had a maid, why would he clean up the mess?

Of course he wouldn't.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by harz


Strange, I would remember and get window fixed right away to avoid leftover broken glasses spreading around, prevent bugs & animals coming in house, plus cold air pouring into. My grandparents had big house, when they had basement window broken, it was still very important to get it fix right away and clean up glasses.
PR's comments makes me feel sticky about it.

Wasn't the broken window in Burke's train room, harz?

I would think Patsy and John would have had it fixed for Burke's safety, if nothing else.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by victims feel
It would have been easier but maybe they thought they police would have thought that is was too easy and bring suspicion back to you know whose it...

remember this is a crazed killing ped.....so smashing the window to randomly rape and kill a strange girl...

True, VF.

And, I just read in PM/PT that the doors in that house locked when they were closed. Presumably, the Ramseys didn't go to bed with their doors wide open in the middle of wintertime.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by victims feel
Great catch H

now who said that...was it Sun or Mimi.....sorry I cannot remember but it was a great point....

It wasn't me.

[harz]

More troubling details; hey its new to me, hopefully new to some.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0802rams1.shtml
Was this knife used to cut duct tape, cord, string, etc? What excatly this knife was used for during that night of murder beside a part of Ramsey's staging?

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by harz
More troubling details; hey its new to me, hopefully new to some.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0802rams1.shtml
Was this knife used to cut duct tape, cord, string, etc? What excatly this knife was used for during that night of murder beside a part of Ramsey's staging?

The red knife was Burke's Swiss Army knife, harz. The Ramseys bought it for him when they went to Switzerland. It was found near JB's body, but no one knows exactly what it was used for.

The reason the housekeeper, LHP thinks the Ramseys are guilty is because Patsy told her to take the knife away from Burke some weeks before the murder. LHP did, and she hid it in a cupboard in the second-floor laundry. She says that no one except herself, John, and Patsy knew where that knife was.

I got this from PM/PT. Hope this helps. :)

JMO

[cantaloupe]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


The red knife was Burke's Swiss Army knife, harz. The Ramseys bought it for him when they went to Switzerland. It was found near JB's body, but no one knows exactly what it was used for.

The reason the housekeeper, LHP thinks the Ramseys are guilty is because Patsy told her to take the knife away from Burke some weeks before the murder. LHP did, and she hid it in a cupboard in the second-floor laundry. She says that no one except herself, John, and Patsy knew where that knife was.

I got this from PM/PT. Hope this helps. :)

JMO

Well that housekeeper never met my son. He could find anything, anywhere, at any time when he was 9 years old. He was the snoopiest kid I've ever seen. He even found the Christmas presents we hid at our neighbor's house one year :D

I think it's entirely possible that more than those three people knew where that knife was. Burke could have gone hunting for it and found it, the older kids might have seen it when they did their laundry, even JBR might have open that cupboard and found it.

[harz]

Originally posted by cantaloupe

I think it's entirely possible that more than those three people knew where that knife was. Burke could have gone hunting for it and found it, the older kids might have seen it when they did their laundry, even JBR might have open that cupboard and found it.

It just odd to me that Ramsey's home in Boulder was around 6000 sq.ft. this 4 inch swiss knife happened to end up in wine cellar nearby the body of JonBenet's after the knife was hidden by housekeeper. IMO

[sunsplashed]

Good observation, harz! :)

Good reply, VF! :)

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by harz


It just odd to me that Ramsey's home in Boulder was around 6000 sq.ft. this 4 inch swiss knife happened to end up in wine cellar nearby the body of JonBenet's after the knife was hidden by housekeeper. IMO

I think this was just another "revelation" that came to light after the housekeeper saw an opporunity to be "compensated" for just the right story. And from what I've read the only person bothered by Burke's leaving shavings around the house was the housekeeper so maybe Patsy found the knife and gave it back to Burke. Who knows? JMO

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by harz


It just odd to me that Ramsey's home in Boulder was around 6000 sq.ft. this 4 inch swiss knife happened to end up in wine cellar nearby the body of JonBenet's after the knife was hidden by housekeeper. IMO

That's not where the knife ended up. Detective Kerry Yamaguchi discovered Burke's knife on a countertop near a sink down a corridor from the small basement room where JonBenet's body was found, not in the wine cellar with her body.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0802rams1.shtml

[harz]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


That's not where the knife ended up. Detective Kerry Yamaguchi discovered Burke's knife on a countertop near a sink down a corridor from the small basement room where JonBenet's body was found, not in the wine cellar with her body.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/0802rams1.shtml

Interesting, now two different verisons about where this knife ended up. thanks for this info, I'm going compare. :read:

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I still notice the "no footprints in the snow" comment...when it's been proven there wasn't hardly any snow on the ground around the home......I just don't buy the bedwetting theory....as Patsy stated in one of her interviews....she had been diagnosed with ovarian cancer....we all know how many people survive this type of cancel...almost zilch.......in the grand scheme of things..I think she knew what was important in life and what wasn't...and bedwetting wasn't! imho

The first officer on the scene said there was snow and frost around much of the house, but not footprints. We also know the front walk had no snow. So this idea that there was "hardly any snow" simply isn't the case. There was snow and frost around much of the house. There were also some spots w/o snow where and intruder could have entered.

One has to wonder why a police officer would bother commenting that there were no footprints in the snow if there was very little snow.

[WallyCleaver]

When was the basement window broken?

We have officers arriving around 6am (why can't we use 24 hour time instead of this stupid AM/PM nonsense?) and reporting there were no visible signs of forced entry.

Isn't a broken window evidence of forced entry?

So did the cops simply not see it at first, or was it really not broken until later? If later, how did someone break it without making a heck of a racket?

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by harz


Interesting, now two different verisons about where this knife ended up. thanks for this info, I'm going compare. :read:

Harz, I think the knife was found in the basement, but not in the wine cellar.

I made have unintentionally misled people when I said it was "found near the body." I meant in the basement as opposed to hidden in the second floor laundry, which is where LHP put it.

I'm sorry if it was me who was misleading. Did not mean to do that. :(

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


The first officer on the scene said there was snow and frost around much of the house, but not footprints. We also know the front walk had no snow. So this idea that there was "hardly any snow" simply isn't the case. There was snow and frost around much of the house. There were also some spots w/o snow where and intruder could have entered.

One has to wonder why a police officer would bother commenting that there were no footprints in the snow if there was very little snow.

Even John Fernie was distressed that the BPD had not checked out his shoes, I think, ten months after the murder. He said there was snow and frost on the ground when he arrived and he made footprints in the snow.

I'll have to check PM/PT to find the exact page number reference for you, but yes, there was snow on the ground in the morning.

JMO

[harz]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Harz, I think the knife was found in the basement, but not in the wine cellar.

I made have unintentionally misled people when I said it was "found near the body." I meant in the basement as opposed to hidden in the second floor laundry, which is where LHP put it.

I'm sorry if it was me who was misleading. Did not mean to do that. :(

JMO

I now remember the misinformed verison came from a poster in different forum a few days ago. No worries about misinformation, at least it was corrected.

I believe this knife is still an important evidence somehow. Because how come no one came forward and tell police or anyone about moving the knife from hidden spot placed by housekeeper to the basement? I think it is interesting to see such denial about the knife from Ramseys. How come Bruke hadn't said anything about it if its really that simple, just to clear the records with the police? IMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by harz


I now remember the misinformed verison came from a poster in different forum a few days ago. No worries about misinformation, at least it was corrected.

I believe this knife is still an important evidence somehow. Because how come no one came forward and tell police or anyone about moving the knife from hidden spot placed by housekeeper to the basement? I think it is interesting to see such denial about the knife from Ramseys. How come Bruke hadn't said anything about it if its really that simple, just to clear the records with the police? IMO

I agree with you, harz. I think it's a very important piece of evidence for the reasons you just stated.

If it was moved innocently, before the murder, someone should have spoken up.

JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Even John Fernie was distressed that the BPD had not checked out his shoes, I think, ten months after the murder. He said there was snow and frost on the ground when he arrived and he made footprints in the snow.

I'll have to check PM/PT to find the exact page number reference for you, but yes, there was snow on the ground in the morning.

JMO

Re: snow on the ground. I have a corner house - and I have no sense of direction so can't you N, E, W, S etc -- but when the sun comes out in the front of my house the snow disappears (talking about less than 2") but on the other side the snow stays there forever because of no direct sunlight. Because the front gets direct sunlight -- we don't have to remove the snow (unless of course it is very cold and alot of snow). But wasn't the weather there something like 40-50 degrees those couple of days -- and it hadn't snowed since the 16th or 18th (can't remember the exact date) and there was light snowfall the night before which could have melted during early hours if there was sunlight. :shrug:

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


Re: snow on the ground. I have a corner house - and I have no sense of direction so can't you N, E, W, S etc -- but when the sun comes out in the front of my house the snow disappears (talking about less than 2") but on the other side the snow stays there forever because of no direct sunlight. Because the front gets direct sunlight -- we don't have to remove the snow (unless of course it is very cold and alot of snow). But wasn't the weather there something like 40-50 degrees those couple of days -- and it hadn't snowed since the 16th or 18th (can't remember the exact date) and there was light snowfall the night before which could have melted during early hours if there was sunlight. :shrug:

I just don't know, Athena, and I don't think we'll ever really know.

There was a light snowfall on Christmas night (25/26), but it warmed up to 51 during the afteroon on the 26th.

I think, but I'm not positive, that the broken window was on the south side, however, there were a lot of pine trees shading it.

Just don't know. :shrug:

JMO

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I just don't know, Athena, and I don't think we'll ever really know.

There was a light snowfall on Christmas night (25/26), but it warmed up to 51 during the afteroon on the 26th.

I think, but I'm not positive, that the broken window was on the south side, however, there were a lot of pine trees shading it.

Just don't know. :shrug:

JMO

According to the floor plan of their house, it shows that broken window on the West (back) side of the house.

http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/floors.htm

Officer Paul Reichenback, who was the first on the scene, arrived at 6AM. According to the search warrant affidavit, he reported that he examined the exterior of the house and yard. He noted a very light dusting of snow and frost on the exposed grass in the yard. He reported that some of the grass and yard was covered with snow from a previous snowfall, one to two inches deep and crusty. He stated he observed no footprints in the snow on the grass. He mentioned nothing about the walkways, driveway or patio. I understand those were heated and didn't contain any snow or frost.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jonbenet/charlevoix3.html

[Louisadelmar]

I wonder if anyone told the spider experts that the basement was always warm and there was a broken window with a window well which would act like a chimney.

Personally I think it's more likely an intruder came through the door with a key.

[harz]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar
I wonder if anyone told the spider experts that the basement was always warm and there was a broken window with a window well which would act like a chimney.


I did thought the theory that basement was warm enough which made spider active. But the problem is, detectives said they found no sign of intruder using that window to get inside.

Image the basement was built up with dust and dirt, it would need a sign of a person that slide through recently, as the dust & dirt would be mess up in patterns and caught on intruder's clothes, from outside. If the intruder used that broken window to get in, did the detectives find the same dust & dirt from broken window area in other areas of the house, as the fibers, dust & dirt would had fall off from intruder's clothing all over in the house. JMO

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar
I wonder if anyone told the spider experts that the basement was always warm and there was a broken window with a window well which would act like a chimney.

Personally I think it's more likely an intruder came through the door with a key.

I wonder if anyone laid a thermometer on the grate to see what the temp would be. My guess is that the broken window didn't do much to raise the temp in the window well. The thermostat is typically in the living room. The basement could get pretty cold w/o the furnace kicking on as long as the living room was warm.

Of course, it's unlikely the window was broken for as long as JR says - so it's unlikely the spider came out of hibernation for a day or two. But who knows, it went from 10 to 51 F

[Athena]

Has anyone ever seen this past clip from Catherine Crier - Guest Erin Moriarity. It is stated that the DNA from JBR underwear and the degraded DNA under JBR's fingernails DID match. It is also mentioned that the DNA could not have been from a sneeze. The second half of the video talks about the other little girl that was molested that went to the same Dance School which many of us have discussed on this board previously. Interesting tidbit.

Does anyone know where Erin Moriarity's full report can be found. The video was just a preview. I am looking for it but in case anyone else finds it would appreciate it if you could post.

The video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nllcQW9QzC0

[Athena]

Video of Smit climbing into the grate and window:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KkcRBbTpmM&mode=related&search=

Interview with PIs/Gray & Augustin. They also were not paid which I was unaware of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-qRdur-iXY&mode=related&search=

[Athena]

Another video showing two footprints:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_3zf4XlhBU&mode=related&search=

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena
Video of Smit climbing into the grate and window:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KkcRBbTpmM&mode=related&search=

Interview with PIs/Gray & Augustin. They also were not paid which I was unaware of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-qRdur-iXY&mode=related&search=

I wanted to see him going THROUGH the window and the video left that out! :(

It showed him outside, then inside.

Darn! :(

[Athena]

Video of crime scene. Please note many grassy areas NOT covered in snow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs0CxEhDY_8&mode=related&search=

You can watch the rest of the videos on the site.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena
Video of crime scene. Please note many grassy areas NOT covered in snow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs0CxEhDY_8&mode=related&search=

You can watch the rest of the videos on the site.

But what time were the videos made? It was after the sun came out and melted the snow. It was after JB's body had been found. It was even being taken away in the one above.

I think everyone agrees that the snow, or at least most of it, melted when the sun came out that day.

JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I wanted to see him going THROUGH the window and the video left that out! :(

It showed him outside, then inside.

Darn! :(

Sun - watch it again -- it does show him going through the window. :confused:

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


Sun - watch it again -- it does show him going through the window. :confused:

Okay, yes, I did see it this time. It was fast, but it did show it. :)

Thanks for posting the links.

[harz]

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/ram1014k.htm

Wow over 1000 evidences, I only known maybe 10-20% of them. I wondered about this
"According to Det. Linda Arndt, who witnessed the autopsy, green Christmas garland, like the garland decorating the spiral staircase in the house, was tangled in her hair."
I thought if the killer was carry JonBenet as if JB's head was supposedly over the killer's shoulder downstairs, how did she got garland tangled in her hair? Or is this a possible evidence that she fell downstairs or the killer dragged her downstairs? Is that how she got bruises or marks on her legs from dragging or falling down? Sorry I dont have link about JB's bruise or marks on her legs.

MOO

[harz]

(Too late to edit)

I think this link is credible enough
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/autopsy.html

"V. Abrasions of left lower back and posterior left lower leg"

I wonder if she got the abrasions on her back and leg sametime she got garland tangled in her hair?

[diplomat]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I wanted to see him going THROUGH the window and the video left that out! :(

It showed him outside, then inside.

Darn! :(

It certainly did show him going through the window.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by diplomat


It certainly did show him going through the window.

Please don't choose JUST ONE of my posts to make a comment on and IGNORE the post in which I corrected myself, said I saw him go through the window, and thanked Athena for the link.

Now, I feel sure if you saw the one you chose to quote and attack, you saw the other one in which I corrected myself as well.

JMO

Don't you think we posters know and remember what we post?

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by diplomat


It certainly did show him going through the window.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Athena


Sun - watch it again -- it does show him going through the window.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Okay, yes, I did see it this time. It was fast, but it did show it.

Thanks for posting the links.

__________________________________________________ __

As you can see, I know it showed him going through the window. I've never doubted that Lou Smit went through that window. I just didn't see it the first time I watched the video because it glossed over that part.

[lucky13]

Lou Smit would have left prints & fibers going through the window the way that he did. So did he? Was that tested afterwards?
What about the Barbie nightgown that was found near JB's body...any theories as to why it was there? It's always puzzled me.(among other things of course)

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by lucky13
Lou Smit would have left prints & fibers going through the window the way that he did. So did he? Was that tested afterwards?
What about the Barbie nightgown that was found near JB's body...any theories as to why it was there? It's always puzzled me.(among other things of course)

If the white blanket and Barbie nightgown were both in the dryer the night of the 25th, the Barbie may have stuck to the blanket (static electricity) when it was taken from the dryer to go to the basement. In the dark, it wouldn't have been noticed. The blanket does not appear to have been taken from the bed.

MOO

[harz]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


If the white blanket and Barbie nightgown were both in the dryer the night of the 25th, the Barbie may have stuck to the blanket (static electricity) when it was taken from the dryer to go to the basement. In the dark, it wouldn't have been noticed. The blanket does not appear to have been taken from the bed.

MOO

Interesting, did BPD took fingerprints off the dryer door to see if was John Ramsey's. It would struck me odd if he went downstairs to get something out of dryer when housekeeper or Patsy normally do. Or he could had wore gloves. JMO.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by harz


Interesting, did BPD took fingerprints off the dryer door to see if was John Ramsey's. It would struck me odd if he went downstairs to get something out of dryer when housekeeper or Patsy normally do. Or he could had wore gloves. JMO.

Harz, there was a washer/dryer on the second floor outside of JonBenet's room. That is where Patsy would wash JB's sheets, blanket, and nightgown/pajamas, when JB wet the bed. LHP put on new sheets on the 23rd and the sheets that were on JB's bed after the murder were not the same ones. Also, the blanket had been on the bed, when LHP changed the sheets. The blanket went under the comforter which did not look disturbed in the photos taken after the murder. The night of the 24th, JB wore her Genie outfit to bed. The night of the 25th, the white shirt and long underwear. I am thinking JonBenet may have worn the Barbie to bed on the 23rd and wet the bed and the sheets, blanket, and Barbie were put in the washer/dryer. The sheets may have been put away, if they took up the first load. The Barbie and blanket may have been the second load and still in the dryer the night of the 25th. Just a guess. The Barbie may have clung to the blanket, when it went to the basement. An intruder would not have known where the blanket was, but it's not just her parents or the housekeeper, who would have known where to find it. JonBenet would have.

I don't know if they took fingerprints from the dryer.

[diplomat]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Please don't choose JUST ONE of my posts to make a comment on and IGNORE the post in which I corrected myself, said I saw him go through the window, and thanked Athena for the link.

Now, I feel sure if you saw the one you chose to quote and attack, you saw the other one in which I corrected myself as well.

JMO

Don't you think we posters know and remember what we post?

One poster in particular comes to mind. Whether it's selective memory or actual forgetfulness remains to be seen.

[harz]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Harz, there was a washer/dryer on the second floor outside of JonBenet's room. That is where Patsy would wash JB's sheets, blanket, and nightgown/pajamas, when JB wet the bed. LHP put on new sheets on the 23rd and the sheets that were on JB's bed after the murder were not the same ones. Also, the blanket had been on the bed, when LHP changed the sheets. The blanket went under the comforter which did not look disturbed in the photos taken after the murder. The night of the 24th, JB wore her Genie outfit to bed. The night of the 25th, the white shirt and long underwear. I am thinking JonBenet may have worn the Barbie to bed on the 23rd and wet the bed and the sheets, blanket, and Barbie were put in the washer/dryer. The sheets may have been put away, if they took up the first load. The Barbie and blanket may have been the second load and still in the dryer the night of the 25th. Just a guess. The Barbie may have clung to the blanket, when it went to the basement. An intruder would not have known where the blanket was, but it's not just her parents or the housekeeper, who would have known where to find it. JonBenet would have.

I don't know if they took fingerprints from the dryer.

Thanks for info. I misterstood about these loads were already in the basement as I thought the washer/dryer were in basement also. Then JB was covered with that blanket in wine cellar, and had barbie with her right? Interesting, I was confused if Ramsey had laundry chute where they throw dirty clothes down to basement, but they have laundary on second floor, now I understand, thanks.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by harz


Thanks for info. I misterstood about these loads were already in the basement as I thought the washer/dryer were in basement also. Then JB was covered with that blanket in wine cellar, and had barbie with her right? Interesting, I was confused if Ramsey had laundry chute where they throw dirty clothes down to basement, but they have laundary on second floor, now I understand, thanks.

I suppose the family's prints would be all over the second floor washer/dryer, harz. It was one of those little stackable ones and I assume the Ramseys used it a lot of the time. I think Patsy did, for sure.

I think the big question is: Were there any fingerprints found that could NOT be matched to known persons who came into the Ramsey house and touched the washer/dryer?

I do not know the answer to that question.

JMO

[Mimi428]

How many of y'all have read the duct tape & doll theory? Here is a link to another forum which discusses one person's theory that the duct tape could have been on something else first, then removed & placed on JonBenet.

http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t1672.html

The compelling part of this particular theory, is the reference to the American Girl dolls that JonBenet was known to possess. Did you know that these dolls have a permanent string attached around their necks? I sure didn't! So I looked on ebay to see what was available during that time period.

Take a look at this auction...

http://cgi.ebay.com/AMERICAN-GIRL-Doll-Molly-Brown-Hair-Blue-Gray-Grey-Eyes_W0QQitemZ320027710360QQihZ011QQcategoryZ95238 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

LOOK AT THAT STRING AROUND HER NECK!

This auction will be over tomorrow - but you can search for it using this listing number at ebay...

320027710360

Or - you can go to ebay & do some searches in the Doll category using the search terms "American Girl" - & narrowing your search to the dolls (not the accessories).

I don't know about y'all - but that just creeped me out! It's always been a mystery to me (& others, I am sure) why anyone would tie a rope around JonBenet's neck...now, I am not so sure the idea was so totally out of the blue.

Gads.

(more to come)

[Mimi428]

Pull out your copies of PM/PT - & help me verify this. According to this website - Pam Paugh, Patsy's sister - was reported as removing some dolls - including American Girls dolls, from the home.

http://www.geocities.com/pinker44/

According to this person - this quote is in the book, PM/PT

"The day before, one of Patsy Ramsey's sisters had gone into the house with police permission and taken out an oil painting, several American Girl dolls, a portfolio of JonBenet's pageant photographs, a pageant medal with a blue ribbon, graduation photos of the older children, and a Bible from John Ramsey's desk, but she had missed JonBenet's stuffed cat, which Patsy had wanted retrieved."

What I want to know is...were these dolls DRESSED - or undressed? If they were dressed, the strings around their necks would not be visible under their clothes, imo.

(still more to come)

[Mimi428]

Who has a copy of "Death of Innocence"? According to the website in the first thread - Patsy remarked that she had purchased a specific doll for JonBenet for Christmas - called "My Twinn". I recall reading an excerpt on acandyrose website of Patsy or John relating that they anticipated JonBenet would be quite excited with this particular doll - since it is custom made to resemble the specific child.

If anyone has DOI, can you check to see if the following is an accurate statement...? TIA

Page 254 DOI paperback

"I lifted the lid slowly. The doll lay silently in the long white box with her eyes closed. For a split second, I had a horrible feeling. The beautiful doll with golden hair looked like JonBenet lying in a coffin! I was so shocked that I caught my breath. I had to blink several times. It was a momentary, but horrible, feeling...."

The poster who wrote that pointed out one problem - the eyes on the My Twinn doll - DO NOT CLOSE!

The American Girl dolls DO have eyes that open & close, however.

And here is a link to another ebay auction for a My Twinn Doll - manufactured at the appropriate time that JonBenet received hers. (this is important, as the company has now changed hands). Look at the picture - it is OBVIOUS that the eyes on this doll will remain open...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&item=330029812211&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

This auction will be over in 5 1/2 days - here is the item # to search for it...

330029812211

Or - do an ebay search in the doll category using the search terms "My Twinn" Denver. You want to use the word Denver in your search to receive the older dolls - I am not certain that the newer ones are being manufactured in the same fashion as the old ones.

[Mimi428]

I do not know if Patsy did or did not secure the neck strings on the American Girl dolls that JonBenet owned. It's possible. They do need something to help keep the neck strings from being loose & getting tangled in the hair.

But my question is - did the BPD know that there were dolls in the house with strings around their necks? It appears they did not request them in any of the search warrants - if they had, Pam Paugh would not have been able to remove them from the premises.

And why did Patsy make the claim that the doll she saw in the box had it's eyes closed & looked like JonBenet lying in her coffin when the doll she referred to has eyes that are very wide open?
(from every photo I have seen of this type of doll).

Is this some kind of Freudian slip? Was Patsy's revealing a subconscious connection to the string around the neck of the American Girl dolls & the rope around her own daughter's neck?

What?

I don't know the answer, but I do know that finding out JonBenet had more than one American Girl doll - & then seeing the string tied around the neck of that doll - after viewing the autopsy photos - is REALLY creepy, imo.

[irishlady]

excellent post mimi...i remember reading about the doll and duct tape on another forum(probably the same one you got it from)but as i could'nt remember where it was i was reluctant to post on it.
i also felt a bit creeped out when i read it and i kept hoping that some other poster would offer a link so a discussion could get going on it but no one did so thank you for searching it out...can't wait to see what others think

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


But what time were the videos made? It was after the sun came out and melted the snow. It was after JB's body had been found. It was even being taken away in the one above.

I think everyone agrees that the snow, or at least most of it, melted when the sun came out that day.

JMO

Interersting piece by Katherine Rosman who debunks "No footprints in the snow" which is also supported to a link I supplied from the Weather site (which I have done before)


FOOTPRINTS IN WHAT SNOW?
Katherine Rosman

Excerpts from the article:

Brennan's scoop was as close to a smoking gun as anything publicly known at the time. Until that point, a broken basement window on the south side of their home meant an intruder could have gotten into the house and killed John and Patsy Ramsey's daughter. Now a lack of footprints in the snow indicated otherwise.

They started re-reporting Brennan's scoop. Glick says he found a meteorologist at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration who told him that there was little snowfall and that
the temperature had been mostly above freezing in the week prior to the murder. Glick says he then deduced that because there were no leaves on the trees to block the sunshine from reaching the flagstone patio outside the broken window, there probably wasn't any snow on the ground outside the broken window -- even though there were patches of snow on the lawn. To confirm, Glick says, he contacted a "frost expert" who told him that scientifically one couldn't even determine whether or when frost would have been on the ground outside the window. In other words, the police notation of "no footprints" was meaningless; it certainly did not rule out the entrance of an intruder.

http://www.acandyrose.com/02002000NEWS-jonbenet-inc.htm


Remember that initially one of the crucial points for the "parents did it" theorists was the supposed lack of footprints in the snow, betraying the parents as the only possible perpetrators. How could there be an intruder if the blanket of snow remained so smooth and pristine?

However, Ramsey apologists point out that crime scene photos show there was no snow on the area of the lawn that accessed the basement window through which an intruder might gain entry. Ramsey finger-pointers retort that the photos are not crisp enough to show a possible light dusting of snow on the paved grounds.

Whatever the case, a forensic meteorologist would need to look at data from several reporting sites and interpret it, as well. For example, one cooperative observer's record from Boulder shows that in the days that led up to the fateful night of the 25th of December 1996, the last time any appreciable snow fell was on the sixteenth until the early hours of the seventeenth, when about 5.9 inches was recorded. Then on the twenty-third, a few tenths of an inch fell. On the twenty-fifth, according to this observation site, a small amount of snow fell between 5-8 p.m. One might also note that with temperatures in the 50s and paved areas absorbing heat more efficiently, leftover snow could have easily melted on the walkways (or could have been removed). In fact, the column indicating present snow cover assumes undisturbed grassy surfaces in the sun. (Shaded areas might have had less melting.)

http://tinyurl.com/n2y3q

There had been no snow activity since December 16th - 18th in Boulder in 1996.

Unfortunately the link directly to the info did not work so scroll down on the page; type in Boulder, CO and then use drop down menu for December 1996 to see entire report.

Weather - December 1996 - Boulder CO

"Denver Monthly
Weather Summaries"
TOTAL MONTH: 1.8 INCHES
GRTST 24HR
GRTST DEPTH:2 ON 16-18

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/bou/?n=climo

[lucky13]

Mimi428, great posts!! I remember reading about the dolls & their strings on acandyrose website some time ago. Someone who worked for the co. also said that they recommended using duct tape to hold the string down. (same site) Coincidence?? One would think so- IF Pam hadn't removed those dolls right after the murder. I always thought it was a strange item to want right away. (That & the painting) (The painting with a 'sling'?) Weird.

[Ames]

Originally posted by irishlady
excellent post mimi...i remember reading about the doll and duct tape on another forum(probably the same one you got it from)but as i could'nt remember where it was i was reluctant to post on it.
i also felt a bit creeped out when i read it and i kept hoping that some other poster would offer a link so a discussion could get going on it but no one did so thank you for searching it out...can't wait to see what others think


I too, have read this. Duct tape was used to hold the string in place, to keep it from getting caught in the brush, when a child brushed its hair. It was recommended by the manufactorer of the doll to do this. I have ALSO read that the duct tape that was used on JB wasn't sticky, and believed to have been stuck onto something else, before being used on her, and that the duct tape had some fibers from an American Girl doll, stuck to it. Don't know how true this is, but its something that I read. ALSO...there was an American Doll ordered, presumably by John Ramsey, and delivered to his place of work, to replace one of JB, right after her death.

[harz]

I thought about stun gun; I realized there may be no stun gun at all. If the marks on JB's body need to be explained. I am guessing it came from one of Christmas lights. I have seen some Christmas lights in triangle. Maybe one of the lights was broken, then splitted wire shocked at contact with JB's skin. Maybe she got tangled in wires with lights around her as some hot glass burnt on her or missing/broken glass got JB shocked when contact the devices on wire. Maybe John used it to make it look like its was stun gun as a part of staging. JMO.

[nuisanceposter]

I have DOI and I looked it up - the passage Mimi quoted reads exactly the same in the book, word for word. Patsy said the doll's eyes were closed.

[diplomat]

Originally posted by harz
I thought about stun gun; I realized there may be no stun gun at all. If the marks on JB's body need to be explained. I am guessing it came from one of Christmas lights. I have seen some Christmas lights in triangle. Maybe one of the lights was broken, then splitted wire shocked at contact with JB's skin. Maybe she got tangled in wires with lights around her as some hot glass burnt on her or missing/broken glass got JB shocked when contact the devices on wire. Maybe John used it to make it look like its was stun gun as a part of staging. JMO.

You certainly have a very vivid imagination. Assuming this theory is excactly what happened, how do you get two sets of marks on different places on JBs body this way? Wouldn't there be cuts from the broken glass, wouldn't BPD have found broken glass from the Christmas lights?

[harz]

Originally posted by diplomat


You certainly have a very vivid imagination. Assuming this theory is excactly what happened, how do you get two sets of marks on different places on JBs body this way? Wouldn't there be cuts from the broken glass, wouldn't BPD have found broken glass from the Christmas lights?

If there's no sign of cuts on JB's body from broken glasses, then the glasses was either entire broken off or removed from the twlight devices as they never noticed as it may happen long before JB's death. Or if there were some broken glasses on devices, the wires may still hanging out of devices, which make lights blinking, were touching JB lightly, as not pressed hard up on skin. Two marks on JB's body might meant she was tangled into the cords making her look like Christmas tree, some of lights touched JB's skin in result leaving marks from shock or burnt. Also the marks on JB's skin might be just burnt from glasses itself being too hot when touching JB's skin for a period of time and she didn't reacted to it because she was already knock out or dead. Maybe John Ramsey was just being clever using it to make it look like stun gun. Who knows. JMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
I have DOI and I looked it up - the passage Mimi quoted reads exactly the same in the book, word for word. Patsy said the doll's eyes were closed.

NP - thank you for the confirmation.

I am thoroughly confounded on this entire matter of dolls. I have (since yesterday) seen so many closeup photos of the My Twinn dolls - with big bright eyes that obviously stay open.

I cannot for the life of me imagine what Patsy was referring to when she wrote that passage.

This is another one of those subtle, subconscious clues, to me.

Just like the ransom note containing the unique, statistically improbable (& totally incorrect) phrase "and hence" - showing up in BOTH the ransom note - and the Christmas letter that was written one year AFTER JonBenet was killed.

It just defies coincidence, imnvho. But so many things in this case defy logic & coincidence, when it comes to rational explanation in regards to Ramsey speech, Ramsey words, Ramsey actions - Ramsey everything.

MOO

[bullmoose]

What kind of Christmas lights are you speaking of? The ones I'm familiar with don't get hot enough to leave marks on flesh; if broken off they instantly short out, again no marks possible. Your scenario is totally implausible, IMO. bullmoose

[harz]

Originally posted by bullmoose
What kind of Christmas lights are you speaking of? The ones I'm familiar with don't get hot enough to leave marks on flesh; if broken off they instantly short out, again no marks possible. Your scenario is totally implausible, IMO. bullmoose

Some Christmas lights do get hot, the one with bigger light blubs, I am not speaking of tiny lights. I have seen some Christmas lights still blinking with broken glasses before. JB might had tangled into cords sametime the devices got shorted onto her skin whether lightblubs are tiny or not. Try it on yourself for experiment with variety Christmas lights on cords. I think it would be worth it to find out the details about what kind of Christmas stuff did Ramsey had, when they purchased them. I remember some Christmas stuff were recalled by companies because of some dangers about their Christmas products in news many years ago. Today Christmas products are more safer than 1996 or older. JMO

[diplomat]

Originally posted by harz


Some Christmas lights do get hot, the one with bigger light blubs, I am not speaking of tiny lights. I have seen some Christmas lights still blinking with broken glasses before. JB might had tangled into cords sametime the devices got shorted onto her skin whether lightblubs are tiny or not. Try it on yourself for experiment with variety Christmas lights on cords. I think it would be worth it to find out the details about what kind of Christmas stuff did Ramsey had, when they purchased them. I remember some Christmas stuff were recalled by companies because of some dangers about their Christmas products in news many years ago. Today Christmas products are more safer than 1996 or older. JMO

You go ahead and test the Christmas lights on yourself, and if you survive the experiment do get a picture of the marks and we will compare yours to those on JB.

[harz]

Originally posted by diplomat


You go ahead and test the Christmas lights on yourself, and if you survive the experiment do get a picture of the marks and we will compare yours to those on JB.

Sure if you tell me their product brand name, model, and numbers of each Christmas stuff they had. :)

[diplomat]

Originally posted by harz


Sure if you tell me their product brand name, model, and numbers of each Christmas stuff they had. :)

I bet you can get that from the floral designer who decorated their house. Let us know how it turns out.

[samsong]

Good information Mimi.

There are so many strange aspects to this case.

[harz]

Originally posted by diplomat


I bet you can get that from the floral designer who decorated their house. Let us know how it turns out.

Lol, then I guess I have to take amount of time finding her/him. I wish that floral designer would come here on this forum to tell us instead. There's many different strong points about marks on JB's skin made by posters here, but came conflicted with each other. I am not saying Christmas lights are very likely, just possible if stun gun is still excluded, and worth to find out, which could be easily done by BPD or the investigators. IMO

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by Mimi428


NP - thank you for the confirmation.

I am thoroughly confounded on this entire matter of dolls. I have (since yesterday) seen so many closeup photos of the My Twinn dolls - with big bright eyes that obviously stay open.

I cannot for the life of me imagine what Patsy was referring to when she wrote that passage.

This is another one of those subtle, subconscious clues, to me.

Just like the ransom note containing the unique, statistically improbable (& totally incorrect) phrase "and hence" - showing up in BOTH the ransom note - and the Christmas letter that was written one year AFTER JonBenet was killed.

It just defies coincidence, imnvho. But so many things in this case defy logic & coincidence, when it comes to rational explanation in regards to Ramsey speech, Ramsey words, Ramsey actions - Ramsey everything.

MOO

I'm no Ramsey supporter but I don't think "and hence" is at all unusuall, and therefore not statistically improbable. Certainly not unique.

Many people say and hence. They simply don't know grammar well enough to know "and" isn't necessary.

[diplomat]

Originally posted by harz


Lol, then I guess I have to take amount of time finding her/him. I wish that floral designer would come here on this forum to tell us instead. There's many different strong points about marks on JB's skin made by posters here, but came conflicted with each other. I am not saying Christmas lights are very likely, just possible if stun gun is still excluded, and worth to find out, which could be easily done by BPD or the investigators. IMO

The stun gun theory has not been excluded. It is still a very viable reason for the marks on JB.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by harz


Some Christmas lights do get hot, the one with bigger light blubs, I am not speaking of tiny lights. I have seen some Christmas lights still blinking with broken glasses before. JB might had tangled into cords sametime the devices got shorted onto her skin whether lightblubs are tiny or not. Try it on yourself for experiment with variety Christmas lights on cords. I think it would be worth it to find out the details about what kind of Christmas stuff did Ramsey had, when they purchased them. I remember some Christmas stuff were recalled by companies because of some dangers about their Christmas products in news many years ago. Today Christmas products are more safer than 1996 or older. JMO

I know! LOL

I've gotten burned from some of the ones in Europe. The bigger bulbs.

I think the Ramseys did not want JB's body exhumed because they knew the marks would be proven to have NOT come from a stun gun. Lou Smit found one stun gun that had similar spacing, but not exact.

JMO

[harz]

Originally posted by diplomat


The stun gun theory has not been excluded. It is still a very viable reason for the marks on JB.

Sorry I shouldn't said "still", just "if is", my bad. Since they didn't find stun gun, what other possible could had caused that marks on JB's skin. I know some would say intruder had stun gun, but the intruder theory is still conflicting for me and some others. And some others said John probably had got rid of stun gun during his "45 minutes errands". IMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by harz


Sorry I shouldn't said "still", just "if is", my bad. Since they didn't find stun gun, what other possible could had caused that marks on JB's skin. I know some would say intruder had stun gun, but the intruder theory is still conflicting for me and some others. And some others said John probably had got rid of stun gun during his "45 minutes errands". IMO

And since not even Lou Smit could find a stun gun with the exact spacing, I do think they should have looked at other theories for how the marks got on JB.

JMO

[harz]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


And since not even Lou Smit could find a stun gun with the exact spacing, I do think they should have looked at other theories for how the marks got on JB.

JMO

Yes I wonder about that since I noticed two pictures about marks on her neck and back. I can't remember if it was back or ribside. Anyway, a picture show only one mark on her neck, another picture showing two marks, but both aren't equally the same. I agree, its too bad it wasn't fully investigated and BPD shouldn't have cooperate with John Ramsey and not to surrender JB's body. IMO

[harz]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I'm no Ramsey supporter but I don't think "and hence" is at all unusuall, and therefore not statistically improbable. Certainly not unique.

Many people say and hence. They simply don't know grammar well enough to know "and" isn't necessary.

I learned not to believe on coincides in the murder cases. Think about how much odds would every suspects on this case have the same tendency of using this phrase as John Ramsey? JMO

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by harz


I learned not to believe on coincides in the murder cases. Think about how much odds would every suspects on this case have the same tendency of using this phrase as John Ramsey? JMO

There have to be millions of people in the US using the word hence. And I'd bet half of them use it with "and".

It's not an everyday word, but it's not rare either.

It raises suspicion, but it's also easily explained.

[diplomat]

Originally posted by harz


Sorry I shouldn't said "still", just "if is", my bad. Since they didn't find stun gun, what other possible could had caused that marks on JB's skin. I know some would say intruder had stun gun, but the intruder theory is still conflicting for me and some others. And some others said John probably had got rid of stun gun during his "45 minutes errands". IMO

Interestingly those who think the Ramsey's killed JB are all over the place about what caused the marks. Christmas lights, hooks, rocks, pebbles. Funny no one has mentioned a cigarette.

[Ames]

Originally posted by Mimi428


<snipped>

Just like the ransom note containing the unique, statistically improbable (& totally incorrect) phrase "and hence" - showing up in BOTH the ransom note - and the Christmas letter that was written one year AFTER JonBenet was killed.

It just defies coincidence, imnvho. But so many things in this case defy logic & coincidence, when it comes to rational explanation in regards to Ramsey speech, Ramsey words, Ramsey actions - Ramsey everything.

MOO

Hi Mimi...could you provide a link to the Ramsey's Christmas letter written one year after JB death? I found the one written in 1996 before she died, but can't seem to find the one written after her death. I sure would love to read it!!! THANKS!

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by diplomat


Interestingly those who think the Ramsey's killed JB are all over the place about what caused the marks. Christmas lights, hooks, rocks, pebbles. Funny no one has mentioned a cigarette.

Why? John and Patsy didn't smoke, so those of us who think the Ramseys did it wouldn't suspect a cigarette. I doubt there were cigarettes in the house.

JMO

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by harz


<snip>

BPD shouldn't have cooperate with John Ramsey and not to surrender JB's body. IMO

The Boulder PD had no authority to hold JonBenet's body. Only the coroner could do that and he refused. As far as he was concerned, his work was complete. JMO

[sunsplashed]

I guess the discussion on this case has pretty much ended. No one seems to be offering anything new and most posters don't even come around anymore.

I have to admit, I'm losing interest. I had forgotten what a boring book PM/PT was. In his zeal to be exhaustive, Schiller put in far too much, IMO. I could well do without the conclusions of residents of Boulder who had nothing at all to do with the Ramseys and tabloid reporters, and the little "mini-biographies." I have to admit, I think I'm going to give up on my rereading at about halfway through.

JMO

[harz]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


There have to be millions of people in the US using the word hence. And I'd bet half of them use it with "and".

It's not an everyday word, but it's not rare either.

It raises suspicion, but it's also easily explained.

Yes but I am counting on suspects who were already involved in this case, not these millions people. I see the "link" in both ransom note and 1997 Christmas Message base on odds of whom (Suspects involved in this case) tend to use this phrase "and hence", it is not a just coincide to me. IMO

[harz]

Originally posted by diplomat


Interestingly those who think the Ramsey's killed JB are all over the place about what caused the marks. Christmas lights, hooks, rocks, pebbles. Funny no one has mentioned a cigarette.

Well, I learned recently about garland found tangled in JB's hair. The mark on JB's neck would have been noticed by people who saw her alive on 25th. So it means she got these marks that night she died. I was trying to figure out how she got garland tangled in her hair and how she got these marks, so I was trying to see the link about abrasions on her back and left lower leg to them. To see the whole picture, I was trying to see if Christmas lights was a missing puzzle to see if it helps on making sense to the whole picture. IMO

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by diplomat


Interestingly those who think the Ramsey's killed JB are all over the place about what caused the marks. Christmas lights, hooks, rocks, pebbles. Funny no one has mentioned a cigarette. I, too, wondered about cigarette burns....but surely the coroner would have realized what they were? :confused:

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I know! LOL

I've gotten burned from some of the ones in Europe. The bigger bulbs.

I think the Ramseys did not want JB's body exhumed because they knew the marks would be proven to have NOT come from a stun gun. Lou Smit found one stun gun that had similar spacing, but not exact.

JMO Good evening, sun...the Ramseys didn't want her body exhumed because they couldn't bear the thought of doing it! :seeya:

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Ames


Hi Mimi...could you provide a link to the Ramsey's Christmas letter written one year after JB death? I found the one written in 1996 before she died, but can't seem to find the one written after her death. I sure would love to read it!!! THANKS!

I will find it - but it may take a few minutes - got an IM going on with my mom right now - & you do not keep an octagenarian waiting ....

LOL

[harz]

Originally posted by sunsplashed
I guess the discussion on this case has pretty much ended. No one seems to be offering anything new and most posters don't even come around anymore.

I have to admit, I'm losing interest. I had forgotten what a boring book PM/PT was. In his zeal to be exhaustive, Schiller put in far too much, IMO. I could well do without the conclusions of residents of Boulder who had nothing at all to do with the Ramseys and tabloid reporters, and the little "mini-biographies." I have to admit, I think I'm going to give up on my rereading at about halfway through.

JMO

I can understand that. Curious, I noticed some locked topics discussion on front page of message board, such as John Couey case, I wonder if this JonBenet discussion board was locked before Karr appeared on this case? And I worry about this JonBenet discussion case will be locked again if it gets colder here like the case is.

It disappoints me to think the only thing that would keep this case hot if there would be other fruitcakes like Karr. Or John Ramsey to confess one of these days, which is very unlikely as it makes me felt ill to believe that he does appericate how mystery about this case is to everyone.

This case is really new to me, I never followed it in 1996 or after. Since I had plenty time now, I happened to follow up about it in August when Karr was arrested. Althrough, I hope this case will be kept hot forever until after the killer is caught at least in memory of JonBenet.

MOO

[harz]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I will find it - but it may take a few minutes - got an IM going on with my mom right now - & you do not keep an octagenarian waiting ....

LOL

http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/1997.htm

that link was under sundancekid site
http://realsundancekid.com/

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


There have to be millions of people in the US using the word hence. And I'd bet half of them use it with "and".

It's not an everyday word, but it's not rare either.

It raises suspicion, but it's also easily explained.

The things that pique my interest in the ransom note are not so much the comparisons to how letters are formed - I believe all but the most imbecilic of ransom note writers will make some effort to disguise their natural handwriting.

But phrasing & structure are much harder to disguise. Let's look at how in the case of the ransom note & the 1997 Christmas letter - not only do the two words "and hence" show up - but the sentences that include them are very uniquely constructed.

BTW - THANK YOU! Harz for finding the Christmas letter & posting that link.

Anyway...

Look at this sentence in the ransom note...

If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a (sic) earlier delivery pick-up of your daughter.

Do you see how the words earlier delivery are present just before AND just after the words "and hence"?

Now - let's look at the Christmas letter...

Had there been no birth of Christ, there would be no hope of eternal life, and, hence, no hope of ever being with our loved ones again.

Again - the writer first uses a phrase just BEFORE - & then repeats it just AFTER the two words "and hence".

THAT, imo - is absolutely improbable, statistically speaking. How many people not only use the redundant phrase "and, hence," - AND use repeated words in that 'before & after' style?

JMO

[Eagle1]

Originally posted by victims feel

WC while I agree hence is not rare it is hardly the word of a ped intruder...

I read the note and the note is written by a highly educated person...although sociopaths have high IQ the note still reflects a superior attitude found among the hoity toity...to take that word out of context is dismissing the flow of someone who attempts to have correct enounciation and vocabulary...much like a lawyer or those who hang around with them...

I can think of at least one person who fits the two descriptions in the above paragraph, wonder if anyone else is thinking of the same bossy but mysterious person? If so, you name him first, okay? Just comparing our impressions.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Good evening, sun...the Ramseys didn't want her body exhumed because they couldn't bear the thought of doing it! :seeya:

Please...it's not like JonBenet cares if her body is exhumed, and if it will help LE get the focus off the Ramseys and will provide valuable clues to find the person who killed her, it's more than worth it.

That was what they wanted the most, right? - to get LE to realize their innocence and use any and all clues possible to track down the killer. John Ramsey said finding the killer was his goal for the rest of his life...well, I have yet to see him prove that in any way, shape, or form.

Exhuming JonBenet and determining if those marks were from a stun gun or not would definitely have helped this investigation.

They didn't want her exhumed because they knew those marks hadn't been made a stun gun and it benefitted them and their intruder theory not to have that proven.

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


Please...it's not like JonBenet cares if her body is exhumed, and if it will help LE get the focus off the Ramseys and will provide valuable clues to find the person who killed her, it's more than worth it.

That was what they wanted the most, right? - to get LE to realize their innocence and use any and all clues possible to track down the killer. John Ramsey said finding the killer was his goal for the rest of his life...well, I have yet to see him prove that in any way, shape, or form.

Exhuming JonBenet and determining if those marks were from a stun gun or not would definitely have helped this investigation.

They didn't want her exhumed because they knew those marks hadn't been made a stun gun and it benefitted them and their intruder theory not to have that proven.

The Ramseys knew the LE could get a court order to have JonBenet's body exhumed. Maybe they thought they would, and take the responsiblity for having it done off their own conscious, if they thought it would be desecrating her.

But, the LE started making preliminary arrangements to exhume her body, then suddenly decided to not to get a court order. If they had, those marks could have been studied more closely and maybe they'd know where they came from.

[La_Cavalière]

There are more than one million references to "and hence" on Google, minus the words Ramsey, code and network:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22and+hence%22+-Ramsey+-code+-network&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N

[diplomat]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I, too, wondered about cigarette burns....but surely the coroner would have realized what they were? :confused:

You would think so, but did the coroner even suspect a stun gun?

[diplomat]

Originally posted by harz


Well, I learned recently about garland found tangled in JB's hair. The mark on JB's neck would have been noticed by people who saw her alive on 25th. So it means she got these marks that night she died. I was trying to figure out how she got garland tangled in her hair and how she got these marks, so I was trying to see the link about abrasions on her back and left lower leg to them. To see the whole picture, I was trying to see if Christmas lights was a missing puzzle to see if it helps on making sense to the whole picture. IMO

With your new perspective perhaps you can continue to come up with some new theories. Keep posting, interesting reading!

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


The Ramseys knew the LE could get a court order to have JonBenet's body exhumed. Maybe they thought they would, and take the responsiblity for having it done off their own conscious, if they thought it would be desecrating her.

But, the LE started making preliminary arrangements to exhume her body, then suddenly decided to not to get a court order. If they had, those marks could have been studied more closely and maybe they'd know where they came from.

All the ME would have to do is take a skin sample and test it to see if it showed signs of electric shock (very easily done) to know if the marks had been made by a stun gun.

He should have done that at the autopsy.

I know it would have been traumatic to the Ramseys to have JB's body exhumed, be they guilty or innocent, but if the BPD had been serious about their search for her killer, they would have gotten a court order and had the body exhumed. Then the stun gun theory could have been proved or disproved.

JMO

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by diplomat


You would think so, but did the coroner even suspect a stun gun? But this was a murdered child....why wouldn't he have suspected a stun gun....maybe the ME was inexperienced, I don't know.....but there was a lot of things imo that should have been checked and wasn't! jmho

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


Please...it's not like JonBenet cares if her body is exhumed, and if it will help LE get the focus off the Ramseys and will provide valuable clues to find the person who killed her, it's more than worth it.

That was what they wanted the most, right? - to get LE to realize their innocence and use any and all clues possible to track down the killer. John Ramsey said finding the killer was his goal for the rest of his life...well, I have yet to see him prove that in any way, shape, or form.

Exhuming JonBenet and determining if those marks were from a stun gun or not would definitely have helped this investigation.

They didn't want her exhumed because they knew those marks hadn't been made a stun gun and it benefitted them and their intruder theory not to have that proven. I disagree....the Ramseys were not even able to grieve properly for their child...they were devastated..and then the accusations they had to face from the media and leaks from LE....how would you deal with it....it's easy for someone to say....just exhume the body...unless they have experienced the things they did....it's a whole different ballgame if it is your daughter in that grave! If LE was so concerned with finding her killer they could have forced the issue of exhumation...why didn't they....?I am not saying that John and Patsy made the right decision...I am saying there is nothing suspicious in it...it was a normal reaction of parents who have had a tragic loss!

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I disagree....the Ramseys were not even able to grieve properly for their child...they were devastated..and then the accusations they had to face from the media and leaks from LE....how would you deal with it....it's easy for someone to say....just exhume the body...unless they have experienced the things they did....it's a whole different ballgame if it is your daughter in that grave! If LE was so concerned with finding her killer they could have forced the issue of exhumation...why didn't they....?I am not saying that John and Patsy made the right decision...I am saying there is nothing suspicious in it...it was a normal reaction of parents who have had a tragic loss!

I don't see the same grieving from the Ramseys that you do. They say in DOI that the reason they installed a headstone on her grave when they did was not primarily to memorialize their daughter, but to avoid media censure over the fact that it had taken them an entire year to finally put up a stone for JonBenet. They even asked for a rush job to make sure their reputation didn't suffer from media noticing that so much time had gone by and they still hadn't set up a stone for her yet.

My father was killed in an auto accident several years ago. He and I were very close, and I mourned him deeply...and still do. However, if police came to me and said, "we think there was some foul play, we'd like to exhume your father and examine him again", I would have no problem telling them to go ahead and do whatever they needed to do to solve the issue...especailly if they thought I had been involved and evidence on his body would clear me and help them find the person who was responsible.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


I don't see the same grieving from the Ramseys that you do. They say in DOI that the reason they installed a headstone on her grave when they did was not primarily to memorialize their daughter, but to avoid media censure over the fact that it had taken them an entire year to finally put up a stone for JonBenet. They even asked for a rush job to make sure their reputation didn't suffer from media noticing that so much time had gone by and they still hadn't set up a stone for her yet.

My father was killed in an auto accident several years ago. He and I were very close, and I mourned him deeply...and still do. However, if police came to me and said, "we think there was some foul play, we'd like to exhume your father and examine him again", I would have no problem telling them to go ahead and do whatever they needed to do to solve the issue...especailly if they thought I had been involved and evidence on his body would clear me and help them find the person who was responsible. I am truly sorry for the loss of your father...I just lost my mother in March...she had been ill for nearly 5 years...but I have also lost a daughter unexpectedly....you just are not meant to bury your children...your mind just doesn't grasp it.....I can understand for many reasons why the Ramseys did not put a headstone on her grave....but no...I would not have allowed them to exhume my daughter either....it's as John stated on TV it was not just a body in that grave...it was his daughter...I am not saying it was the correct decision...but it was one from their hearts! imho

[nuisanceposter]

Thank you, and I'm just as sorry to hear of the loss of your mother and especially your daughter.

[Athena]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I am truly sorry for the loss of your father...I just lost my mother in March...she had been ill for nearly 5 years...but I have also lost a daughter unexpectedly....you just are not meant to bury your children...your mind just doesn't grasp it.....I can understand for many reasons why the Ramseys did not put a headstone on her grave....but no...I would not have allowed them to exhume my daughter either....it's as John stated on TV it was not just a body in that grave...it was his daughter...I am not saying it was the correct decision...but it was one from their hearts! imho

I agree LadyFisher. :rose:

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Why? John and Patsy didn't smoke, so those of us who think the Ramseys did it wouldn't suspect a cigarette. I doubt there were cigarettes in the house.

JMO

Appears there were cigarette butts found and picked up according to the search warrant:


December 26, 1996 Search Warrant Page 13:

Notepad with writing (37BAH)
One black pen (51BAH)
Girls underwear (56BAH)
Black Pen (57BAH)
Cigarette butts, leaves, bag (58BAH)

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-inventory.htm

[harz]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
I am truly sorry for the loss of your father...I just lost my mother in March...she had been ill for nearly 5 years...but I have also lost a daughter unexpectedly....you just are not meant to bury your children...your mind just doesn't grasp it.....I can understand for many reasons why the Ramseys did not put a headstone on her grave....but no...I would not have allowed them to exhume my daughter either....it's as John stated on TV it was not just a body in that grave...it was his daughter...I am not saying it was the correct decision...but it was one from their hearts! imho

I am sorry to both about your loss.

If I remember correctly, someone post here about Ramseys Christian beliefs that body becomes a shell once it died as the spirit retreat away from its host. I am not certain if that is correct, but I take whoever's words for it. But my question is, why not exhume that shell of JB's? I do believe that John won't permit body to be exhumed came out of his gulity conscience instead of his heart. Otherwise, John is the man of house, or head of his family, he made the decisions to basically everything. If he was man enough to want get this case solved, he would want the body (shell) to be exhumed. I am not trying make offense to religious, but its seems their beliefs about body being shell between treating the body the opposite are somewhat conflicted over having the body exhumed. :shrug: JMO

[Athena]

I believe the biggest point re: exhumation of the body has been missed. I can totally understand the Ramsey's not wanting to exhume the body of JonBenet.

The police should have obtained a court order. That is THEIR job. It is NOT the responsibility of the Ramsey's to prove themselves innocent - it IS the JOB of the DA/BPD to prove them guilty!

JMHO

[harz]

Found this link; more details about Ramsey's phrases

http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/

[sweetcharlotte]

I am of the opinion that JonBenet entered into eternal peace the day her soul left her body. She doesn't need a thing from anyone on this earth to make that journey complete for her. JMO

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by victims feel
As I am not a christian I prefer to deal with the realism of the horror of her death and there can be NO PEACE until there is JUSTICE!!!!!!

Her energy is disrupted as her life was distrupted in a horrible death... until it is restored with justice be it manmade or universal there will be no peace.

To each his/her own but I don't believe any of this matters in any way to JonBenet. JMO

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by victims feel
As I am not a christian I prefer to deal with the realism of the horror of her death and there can be NO PEACE until there is JUSTICE!!!!!!

Her energy is disrupted as her life was distrupted in a horrible death... until it is restored with justice be it manmade or universal there will be no peace.

I'm just curious - exactly what kind of justice do you think JonBenet is looking for?

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by victims feel
great link H!

6. In lines #13 - 16, the writer states, "If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier pickup of your daughter." The word "hence" is a formal way of saying "therefore." The writer starts out the ransom note misspelling words giving the appearance he is uneducated. However, his educational level begins to show when he uses words such as "hence."

The word "hence" is not a very common word. When was the last time you used that word in a sentence? Chances are you have not used it this week. We should look to see if this word appears in any writings of John or Patsy Ramsey. Well, it does. On December 14, 1997, the First United Methodist Church in Boulder, Colorado held a memorial service for JonBenet. In the program, there was "A Christmas Message from the Ramsey Family." This message was also posted on the Ramsey family's web site. In the message, we find the statement, "Had there been no birth of Christ, there would be no hope of eternal life, and, hence, no hope of ever being with our loved ones again."

in the link provided by H

The word hence isn't common, but it's not rare. I agree it raises suspicion, but a defense attorney would make mincemeat of this idea that PR wrote the RN because "and hence" is used in the X-mass letter.

Lot's of people use "hence" to try to sound more sophisticated than they are. Many use "and" with "hence" not realizing it's unnecessary.

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte
I am of the opinion that JonBenet entered into eternal peace the day her soul left her body. She doesn't need a thing from anyone on this earth to make that journey complete for her. JMO I, too, am of the belief that JB entered eternity when her soul left the body....the Bible does say.."to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"......but it still is painful for those left behind. They are the ones suffering, not JB! imho

[harz]

Originally posted by Athena


Appears there were cigarette butts found and picked up according to the search warrant:


December 26, 1996 Search Warrant Page 13:

Notepad with writing (37BAH)
One black pen (51BAH)
Girls underwear (56BAH)
Black Pen (57BAH)
Cigarette butts, leaves, bag (58BAH)

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-inventory.htm

Interesting, but it doesn't mean it the marks on JB's skin came from cigarette. If they were, then there should be residues of cigarette chemical, ashes, fibers, etc on her skins. Also BPD or whomever would have smell it. BPD would have told us that as they can tell the difference. I looked closer on one of her mark in blown up picture, it look like 1 or 2 small pen points were pressed onto the skin in center of the mark, still doesn't mean pens cause that. JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by harz


Interesting, but it doesn't mean it the marks on JB's skin came from cigarette. If they were, then there should be residues of cigarette chemical, ashes, fibers, etc on her skins. Also BPD or whomever would have smell it. BPD would have told us that as they can tell the difference. I looked closer on one of her mark in blown up picture, it look like 1 or 2 small pen points were pressed onto the skin in center of the mark, still doesn't mean pens cause that. JMO

And I did not say she was burned with a cigarette. I posted those items (cigarette butts) removed as a result of the search warrant in response to the statement that the Ramseys did not smoke. However, there were cigarette butts found -- so whose butts were they?

I believe if they were cigarette burns the coroner would probably have said that.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Good evening, sun...the Ramseys didn't want her body exhumed because they couldn't bear the thought of doing it! :seeya:

Hello, LadyFisher! :)

I can well understand anyone not wanting the body of a loved one exhumed, but I do think the police should have gotten a court order and had it exhumed since there were so many unanswered questions. Yes, it would have been painful for the Ramseys, but the decision would have been taken out of their hands and perhaps an exhumation could have helped to find JB's killer, be it the Ramseys or an intruder.

JMO

[diplomat]

Originally posted by victims feel
I did not know Jon Bonet but I would never be so naive or presumptious to assume that her murder is of no importance to 'her'.....

How could that be?

[Athena]

Pictures of stun gun/measurements/JBR marks:


An enlarged view of the marks on the back, with the centimeter measure cropped and moved closer to the marks in alignment. The marks appear to be approximately 3.5 cm apart.


Photo from Today Show/ The Intruder Theory, comparing the probes of an Air Taser stun gun

In the upper portion, the stun gun probe photo has been cropped and moved closer to the marks to compare.

The probes on this model Air Taser are 3.5 cm apart.


http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/stun_gun_measurements.html

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by victims feel
Because the exhumation would have lead to the killer is why it was not done.IMO

Of course, it would have, VF. And an examination of the skin under the so-called "stun marks" would have showed NO electrical shock.

JMO

[Ames]

Originally posted by Mimi428


I will find it - but it may take a few minutes - got an IM going on with my mom right now - & you do not keep an octagenarian waiting ....

LOL


LOL I understand...just when you get a chance. THANKS A BUNCH!!! :D

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by victims feel
Exactly Sun. And further examination of the body would have said_____________.


I know we all react differently to trauma and suffering however I cannot imagine letting any child I know to be buried without exhausting all chances of finding the violator.....I could not sleep until I knew before we laid the person to rest that all exams were thoroughly completed so we would not have to do the exhumation in the first place...

Sun, I have no doubt that had this been Modesto LE the R2 would have been charged. They had less on Scott P and more believable thoughts of an intruder....

I think they would have been indicted any place but Colorado. Boulder, Aspen, Telluride, all those places are notorious for not indicting. DAs offices have had a lot less on a lot of people serving life sentences in prison now.

JMO

Have a good Friday, VF! :)

[Ames]

Originally posted by harz


http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/1997.htm

that link was under sundancekid site
http://realsundancekid.com/


Thank you harz, for the link. I have to admit that I cried when I read the part about the Ramsey's missing JB presence among them as they saw the lights, heard the music and recalled Christmases of the past. POOR JB!!

On another note...the AND, HENCE, is too weird of a coincidence....IMO

[Ames]

Originally posted by Mimi428


The things that pique my interest in the ransom note are not so much the comparisons to how letters are formed - I believe all but the most imbecilic of ransom note writers will make some effort to disguise their natural handwriting.

But phrasing & structure are much harder to disguise. Let's look at how in the case of the ransom note & the 1997 Christmas letter - not only do the two words "and hence" show up - but the sentences that include them are very uniquely constructed.

BTW - THANK YOU! Harz for finding the Christmas letter & posting that link.

Anyway...

Look at this sentence in the ransom note...

If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a (sic) earlier delivery pick-up of your daughter.

Do you see how the words earlier delivery are present just before AND just after the words "and hence"?

Now - let's look at the Christmas letter...

Had there been no birth of Christ, there would be no hope of eternal life, and, hence, no hope of ever being with our loved ones again.

Again - the writer first uses a phrase just BEFORE - & then repeats it just AFTER the two words "and hence".

THAT, imo - is absolutely improbable, statistically speaking. How many people not only use the redundant phrase "and, hence," - AND use repeated words in that 'before & after' style?

JMO

WOW...great eyes you have there, Mimi. Too bad you are not part of the investigating team. Wonder if they take volunteers?? LOL You have made an EXCELLENT point, as you ALWAYS do in everyone of your posts. IMO

[harz]

Originally posted by Athena
Pictures of stun gun/measurements/JBR marks:


An enlarged view of the marks on the back, with the centimeter measure cropped and moved closer to the marks in alignment. The marks appear to be approximately 3.5 cm apart.


Photo from Today Show/ The Intruder Theory, comparing the probes of an Air Taser stun gun

In the upper portion, the stun gun probe photo has been cropped and moved closer to the marks to compare.

The probes on this model Air Taser are 3.5 cm apart.


http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/stun_gun_measurements.html

Interesting, what about mark on her neck? It was only one compare to 2 on her ribside? If there actually was a stun gun used on JB, then it would either support intruder theory and Ramsey's plot. John can hide it with him as he disappeared during 10:40am to noon to get rid of it. Also he went to stun gun store sometime before, didn't he? IMO

[harz]

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/nebula/9337/jonbenet.html

"Why were photos of JonBenet found in the trash left at the Boulder house after the move to Atlanta?"

I came crossed this, I want to post about it before I go bed. It certain makes me felt ill about Ramseys threw the photos of JB after she was murdered that most vicitms families would do the opposite. I will look up google to find more details about it. How about anyone here know the details to it?

MOO

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by victims feel
Because the exhumation would have lead to the killer is why it was not done.IMO

How?

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by victims feel
Because the exhumation would have lead to the killer is why it was not done.IMO

Are you saying the LE didn't want to find out who her killer was, and that's why they didn't obtain a court order to exhume her body?

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Ames


WOW...great eyes you have there, Mimi. Too bad you are not part of the investigating team. Wonder if they take volunteers?? LOL You have made an EXCELLENT point, as you ALWAYS do in everyone of your posts. IMO

Aww shucks! Thank you for your kinds words, Ames.

But I cannot take any credit for noticing the before & after phrases - that was pointed out by someone who did a statement analysis (at the link that harz provided).

Nonetheless, the combined usage - of the "and hence" plus the before-and-after phrases result in a very unique situation, imo. While we can find many similar instances of people posting "and hence" by doing a Google search - if you look at the rest of the sentences in say the first 20 - 30 results - you do NOT find that those writers use a phrase before "and hence" - & then repeat the same phrase afterwards.

Except, of course, in the case of both the ransom note & the Ramsey 1997 Christmas message...

[Ames]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Aww shucks! Thank you for your kinds words, Ames.

But I cannot take any credit for noticing the before & after phrases - that was pointed out by someone who did a statement analysis (at the link that harz provided).

Nonetheless, the combined usage - of the "and hence" plus the before-and-after phrases result in a very unique situation, imo. While we can find many similar instances of people posting "and hence" by doing a Google search - if you look at the rest of the sentences in say the first 20 - 30 results - you do NOT find that those writers use a phrase before "and hence" - & then repeat the same phrase afterwards.

Except, of course, in the case of both the ransom note & the Ramsey 1997 Christmas message...


And, hence....the combined usage of those two words plus the before and after phrases, in both the ransom note, and Christmas letter, speaks volumes. IMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by harz
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/nebula/9337/jonbenet.html

"Why were photos of JonBenet found in the trash left at the Boulder house after the move to Atlanta?"

I came crossed this, I want to post about it before I go bed. It certain makes me felt ill about Ramseys threw the photos of JB after she was murdered that most vicitms families would do the opposite. I will look up google to find more details about it. How about anyone here know the details to it?

MOO

I don't know anything about that, harz. I'm sorry.

I do know Patsy said she was glad she had entered JB in pageants because the pictures were so beautiful and now that's all she had. The photos. (From PM/PT)

JMO

[sunsplashed]

In PM/PT, it says that Burke's and John's voices WERE heard on the enhanced 911 tape. I thought that was a myth. However, if it is a myth, then Schiller has some mistaken information in his book.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by sunsplashed
In PM/PT, it says that Burke's and John's voices WERE heard on the enhanced 911 tape. I thought that was a myth. However, if it is a myth, then Schiller has some mistaken information in his book.

I don't remember reading that in PM/PT.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


I don't remember reading that in PM/PT.

I often forget all the little details is a book, but it's there.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Ames



And, hence....the combined usage of those two words plus the before and after phrases, in both the ransom note, and Christmas letter, speaks volumes. IMO

Ted Kaczynski's writing eventually led to his arrest. Maybe some day, somewhere, a person in possession of other writing with the same idiosyncratic style, from someone who can reasonably be connected to the Ramsey house that night will come forward & show it.

We can hope, anyway.

JMO

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I often forget all the little details is a book, but it's there.

I don't think so. JMO

[diplomat]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


Are you saying the LE didn't want to find out who her killer was, and that's why they didn't obtain a court order to exhume her body?

Kind of makes it seem dangerous to live in Boulder.

[nuisanceposter]

Air Taser, the maker of the stun gun Smit is convinced was used in the JonBenet Ramsey case, says Smit’s theory is wrong.

From Boulder’s The Daily Camera, May 2, 2001 (Christopher Anderson)
“Air Taser representative Stephen Tuttle said he was contacted by an investigator early on in the case and provided Smit with the same model to conduct his experiments.
"I am bewildered. I don't know what to think about the theory," Tuttle said. "It defies the logic of what the weapon does."
Tuttle conceded that two marks are close to the width of the contacts of an Air Taser, but said that's where the similarities end.
"We have never seen those types of marks when you touch somebody with a stun gun," he said. "We are talking hundreds of people that have been touched with these devices. I can't replicate those marks."
Tuttle said it is uncommon for the stun gun to leave only two marks on the skin. The body moves away from the stun gun, causing multiple, erratic marks.
"How you can keep this thing perfectly still, not once, but twice on a squirming child? It doesn't make any sense," he said. "I hope that doesn't throw water on somebody's investigation."
He also said the Air Taser does not render people unconscious.
Nebraska Dr. Robert Stratbucker, who has conducted several experiments on stun guns and is considered a courtroom expert, said he takes "considerable issue" with Smit's stun gun theory.
Stratbucker said it is "pure nonsense" that the stun gun would leave a blue mark in between red marks on the skin as Smit claimed.
"I have not seen ever, ever any blue marks, and I don't know what the cause of any blue mark could be," he said.

During a May 2, 2003, phone conversation between Steve Tuttle, spokesperson for Air Taiser, and a representative of Forums for Justice.com, Mr. Tuttle stated the following.

“We are still as perplexed to this day as to why any investigator would think a stun gun, a Taser stun gun, was used in the JonBenet Ramsey case.

Several things would make a Taser gun extremely difficult to use as in the scenario presented by the investigator:

*Our company has never encountered those kinds of marks on humans. Humans instinctually respond to pain and move during stun applications.

*A stun gun is very LOUD.

*The technology at the time of the crime would only allow the user to keep a person at bay with the stun power of seven watts, not incapacitate him or stun him into unconsciousness. The person would still be able to scream, squirm, kick and yell.

*If a stun gun were used, in order to leave the type of marks made by the electrodes on a person, there would also have to be significant indentations in the skin, caused by the front of the stun gun. The electrodes do not protrude that much. To get marginal effect from the seven watt device, the user would have to aggressively drive in the stun gun on a pressure point , which would leave large indentations that would show up on a deceased person. They would be very noticeable. Once again this wouldn't stun the person into unconsciousness nor would it immobilize them. It would, however, cause a great deal of pain - so much so the person would be screaming.

*Taser contacted the police when they first heard their stun gun was being used to support a theory that a child was immobilized with the stun gun, leaving the marks that can be seen in the autopsy photos. Taser expressed, emphatically, that the theory of the stun gun is perplexing, as it doesn't make sense.”


http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4708

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


snipped...

*If a stun gun were used, in order to leave the type of marks made by the electrodes on a person, there would also have to be significant indentations in the skin, caused by the front of the stun gun. The electrodes do not protrude that much. To get marginal effect from the seven watt device, the user would have to aggressively drive in the stun gun on a pressure point , which would leave large indentations that would show up on a deceased person. They would be very noticeable. Once again this wouldn't stun the person into unconsciousness nor would it immobilize them. It would, however, cause a great deal of pain - so much so the person would be screaming.



OK, I'll bite. If a stun gun doesn't stun, what does a stun gun do?

And, why do PD's think they immobilized suspects?

Dictionary reference for STUN:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stun

1. to deprive of consciousness or strength by or as if by a blow, fall, etc.: The blow to his jaw stunned him for a moment.
2. to astonish; astound; amaze: Her wit stunned the audience.
3. to shock; overwhelm: The world was stunned by the attempted assassination.
4. to daze or bewilder by noise.
–noun 5. the act of stunning.
6. the condition of being stunned.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


I don't remember reading that in PM/PT.

If you look on page 372 of the paperback edition of PM/PT, you'll see that both Burke's and John's voices were heard on an enhanced tape of the 911 call. If the Ramseys are innocent of this crime, I don't see any reason for them to lie like they apparently did about Burke being asleep.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


I don't think so. JMO

I just posted the page number. It's in the paperback edition of PM/PT, page 372.

I'm sure it's not printed just in my edition and in no one else's.

I'm sure, if you have the paperback edition, it will be in yours, too.

The tape was enhanced by Aerospace Corporation of El Segundo, California, a company that possessed technology to enhance tapes that was even more sophisticated than was the technology of the government at the time. The voices are not garbled, but clear. The voices could not have come from any other source.

Burke's voice and John's voice are heard in the background during the 911 call.

Burke says: Please, what did I do?

John says: We're not speaking to you.

Burke says: What did you find?

From page 372 of the paperback version of PM/PT.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


OK, I'll bite. If a stun gun doesn't stun, what does a stun gun do?

And, why do PD's think they immobilized suspects?

Dictionary reference for STUN:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stun

1. to deprive of consciousness or strength by or as if by a blow, fall, etc.: The blow to his jaw stunned him for a moment.
2. to astonish; astound; amaze: Her wit stunned the audience.
3. to shock; overwhelm: The world was stunned by the attempted assassination.
4. to daze or bewilder by noise.
–noun 5. the act of stunning.
6. the condition of being stunned.

Way to just overlook all of the other information in the post - you know, the one that discounts the idea that the marks made on JonBenet were from a stun gun.

I'm not sure what your question is. If it isn't knocking people unconscious, it's not stunning them? Reread that definition you quoted. It does not say a person has to be unconscious to be stunned.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by sunsplashed

<snip>
If the Ramseys are innocent of this crime, I don't see any reason for them to lie like they apparently did about Burke being asleep.

JMO


Nor do I see any reason for them to lie about the other things that they've lied about - like whether the doors were locked or not, whether JonBenet was asleep or not, whether they gave her pineapple or not...

They even admitted after the enhanced tape results were made public that Burke had been awake that morning.

How many times do murder suspects get to change their story, and still be believed? If you're a Ramsey, as many times as you want.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter



Nor do I see any reason for them to lie about the other things that they've lied about - like whether the doors were locked or not, whether JonBenet was asleep or not, whether they gave her pineapple or not...

They even admitted after the enhanced tape results were made public that Burke had been awake that morning.

How many times do murder suspects get to change their story, and still be believed? If you're a Ramsey, as many times as you want.

Exactly!

If you're a Ramsey, living in Boulder, I guess you can change your story to "fit" whatever hard and fast evidence emerges.

Shame on Alex Hunter AND Mary Lacy (his protegee.)

I don't see how ANYONE can be on the side of the victim (JB) and defend all the lies the Ramseys told.

I discount their demeanor, but not their many lies and not the fact that there was zero evidence of an intruder.

JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed
In PM/PT, it says that Burke's and John's voices WERE heard on the enhanced 911 tape. I thought that was a myth. However, if it is a myth, then Schiller has some mistaken information in his book.

Hi Sun,

Sneaking in here from work - LOL

Schiller has a couple of things in his book that were written based on early police files and what he was told by LE. Since then some have been clarified and/or discredited. This was one of them -- just like JR is the one that contacted the hardware store and someone has been arrested since then for impersonating JR. And DNA was isolated after he wrote the book -- the book was written in 1999. jmo

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


Hi Sun,

Sneaking in here from work - LOL

Schiller has a couple of things in his book that were written based on early police files and what he was told by LE. Since then some have been clarified and/or discredited. This was one of them -- just like JR is the one that contacted the hardware store and someone has been arrested since then for impersonating JR. And DNA was isolated after he wrote the book -- the book was written in 1999. jmo

Hi Athena

I'm not disbelieving you, but Schiller makes it sound pretty definitive in his book and the Ramseys even changed their story and said Burke was awake.

When you get home, if you could find a link, about the enhanced tape being a myth, I'd like to read it.

Schiller never states definitively that the person who made the call to the hardware store was JR, only that he identified himself as JR. I can well believe it was a tabloid reporter, but I'm having more trouble dismissing the enhanced 911 tape.

If you have links, thanks! :)

JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Exactly!

If you're a Ramsey, living in Boulder, I guess you can change your story to "fit" whatever hard and fast evidence emerges.

Shame on Alex Hunter AND Mary Lacy (his protegee.)

I don't see how ANYONE can be on the side of the victim (JB) and defend all the lies the Ramseys told.

I discount their demeanor, but not their many lies and not the fact that there was zero evidence of an intruder.

JMO

You do realize there were other LEs that did not believe the Ramseys killed JBR??? Even the BPD Lawyer -- did not discount an intruder -- Steve Thomas was very upset with him for that and told him "you're supposed to be on our side" -- and the Lawyer explained that he went with the evidence.

The one who told the most lies or info based on innuendos and speculation were the BPD not the DA.

When you are doing research on this case, personally I would not believe anything said or written prior to 2000 with the exception of Schiller's book -- however being aware there have been updates to some of the info he presents. jmho

[MissOtisRegrets]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0307/11/lkl.00.html

KING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) who appeared on this show (UNINTELLIGIBLE) accused Patsy of being the murderer. He was the one that claimed JonBenet's brother, Burke, could be heard at the end of the 911 tape.

WOOD: Absolutely, and that information was leaked out from the Boulder Police Department in September of 1998. Again, allegedly the smoking gun, the objective proof that the Ramseys were lying.

Well, in fact, that conversation is not on that tape. It's been enhanced by the FBI, the Secret Service, they found nothing. I gave it to one of the rival networks, NBC News. They hired two independent experts. They tested it. There absolutely is no voice on there discernible that belongs to Burke or John or Patsy.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by Athena


You do realize there were other LEs that did not believe the Ramseys killed JBR??? Even the BPD Lawyer -- did not discount an intruder -- Steve Thomas was very upset with him for that and told him "you're supposed to be on our side" -- and the Lawyer explained that he went with the evidence.

The one who told the most lies or info based on innuendos and speculation were the BPD not the DA.

When you are doing research on this case, personally I would not believe anything said or written prior to 2000 with the exception of Schiller's book -- however being aware there have been updates to some of the info he presents. jmho

I'd like to see some proof that the BPD was telling more lies and going on more speculation than the DA's office.

BPD had FBI's CASKU unti backing their theory up. Those guys weren't going on speculation and lies. They were going on the evidence found in the crime scene and on the body.

The Ramseys contradicted their own stories repeatedly and there is just no solid evidence of an intruder...but there's plenty of evidence indicating a Ramsey was involved (specifically Patsy.)

I have to agree with you about using info from after 2000. A lot more information came out as the years went by.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0307/11/lkl.00.html

KING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) who appeared on this show (UNINTELLIGIBLE) accused Patsy of being the murderer. He was the one that claimed JonBenet's brother, Burke, could be heard at the end of the 911 tape.

WOOD: Absolutely, and that information was leaked out from the Boulder Police Department in September of 1998. Again, allegedly the smoking gun, the objective proof that the Ramseys were lying.

Well, in fact, that conversation is not on that tape. It's been enhanced by the FBI, the Secret Service, they found nothing. I gave it to one of the rival networks, NBC News. They hired two independent experts. They tested it. There absolutely is no voice on there discernible that belongs to Burke or John or Patsy.

Just like with the sexual abuse or head wound first vs strangulation first, there are experts who will back up either side.

Some experts say there is nothing else on the 911 tape, some say there is.

The fact that the Rs changed their story to Burke was awake after all after the enhanced tape results saying there is extra conversation involving Burke makes me think there is something to be heard, and the Rs know it.

Why else would they change their story after experts heard him on the tape?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


Just like with the sexual abuse or head wound first vs strangulation first, there are experts who will back up either side.

Some experts say there is nothing else on the 911 tape, some say there is.

The fact that the Rs changed their story to Burke was awake after all after the enhanced tape results saying there is extra conversation involving Burke makes me think there is something to be heard, and the Rs know it.

Why else would they change their story after experts heard him on the tape?

Nuisance, what did the Ramseys say when they changed their story? I'm not challenging you, I'm new to this case and am unaware of it. Thanks.

[Athena]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
Air Taser, the maker of the stun gun Smit is convinced was used in the JonBenet Ramsey case, says Smit’s theory is wrong.

From Boulder’s The Daily Camera, May 2, 2001 (Christopher Anderson)
“Air Taser representative Stephen Tuttle said he was contacted by an investigator early on in the case and provided Smit with the same model to conduct his experiments.
"I am bewildered. I don't know what to think about the theory," Tuttle said. "It defies the logic of what the weapon does."
Tuttle conceded that two marks are close to the width of the contacts of an Air Taser, but said that's where the similarities end.
"We have never seen those types of marks when you touch somebody with a stun gun," he said. "We are talking hundreds of people that have been touched with these devices. I can't replicate those marks."
Tuttle said it is uncommon for the stun gun to leave only two marks on the skin. The body moves away from the stun gun, causing multiple, erratic marks.
"How you can keep this thing perfectly still, not once, but twice on a squirming child? It doesn't make any sense," he said. "I hope that doesn't throw water on somebody's investigation."
He also said the Air Taser does not render people unconscious.
Nebraska Dr. Robert Stratbucker, who has conducted several experiments on stun guns and is considered a courtroom expert, said he takes "considerable issue" with Smit's stun gun theory.
Stratbucker said it is "pure nonsense" that the stun gun would leave a blue mark in between red marks on the skin as Smit claimed.
"I have not seen ever, ever any blue marks, and I don't know what the cause of any blue mark could be," he said.

During a May 2, 2003, phone conversation between Steve Tuttle, spokesperson for Air Taiser, and a representative of Forums for Justice.com, Mr. Tuttle stated the following.

“We are still as perplexed to this day as to why any investigator would think a stun gun, a Taser stun gun, was used in the JonBenet Ramsey case.

Several things would make a Taser gun extremely difficult to use as in the scenario presented by the investigator:

*Our company has never encountered those kinds of marks on humans. Humans instinctually respond to pain and move during stun applications.

*A stun gun is very LOUD.

*The technology at the time of the crime would only allow the user to keep a person at bay with the stun power of seven watts, not incapacitate him or stun him into unconsciousness. The person would still be able to scream, squirm, kick and yell.

*If a stun gun were used, in order to leave the type of marks made by the electrodes on a person, there would also have to be significant indentations in the skin, caused by the front of the stun gun. The electrodes do not protrude that much. To get marginal effect from the seven watt device, the user would have to aggressively drive in the stun gun on a pressure point , which would leave large indentations that would show up on a deceased person. They would be very noticeable. Once again this wouldn't stun the person into unconsciousness nor would it immobilize them. It would, however, cause a great deal of pain - so much so the person would be screaming.

*Taser contacted the police when they first heard their stun gun was being used to support a theory that a child was immobilized with the stun gun, leaving the marks that can be seen in the autopsy photos. Taser expressed, emphatically, that the theory of the stun gun is perplexing, as it doesn't make sense.”


http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4708

Ha! Ha! Did you know his whole testimony was thrown out and he was discredited as an expert witness? He was on Taser's payroll. It is in one of the interrogation interviews. People need to rethink what they post from other forums. They are all full of errors. jmo

[Athena]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


Just like with the sexual abuse or head wound first vs strangulation first, there are experts who will back up either side.

Some experts say there is nothing else on the 911 tape, some say there is.

The fact that the Rs changed their story to Burke was awake after all after the enhanced tape results saying there is extra conversation involving Burke makes me think there is something to be heard, and the Rs know it.

Why else would they change their story after experts heard him on the tape?

And exactly where is the legal document that says the Ramseys changed their answers. You post all of this stuff and I have yet to see a credible link from you other than from other forums of opionions of other posters. And all that stuff was written BEFORE the 911 tape was released to the public. Another one of Steve Thomas and his cronies' lies. :rolleyes:


In his book, “JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation,” Thomas claimed that by enhancing the tape you can hear John and Patsy talking to their son Burke. He claims that’s important because the Ramseys reportedly told police their son was asleep at the time of the call. If true, Thomas claims it suggests the family was altering their story right from the start.

But both the FBI and Secret Service — who examined the tapes — said such a conversation could not be heard.

NBC News had the tape tested by experts at two different labs that examine 911 tapes to see if there was any conversation after the hang up.

“I would say my findings are much more in parallel with the FBI’s findings. There’s not enough there to give any sort of conclusive, intelligible argument,” says Frank Piazza of Legal Audio in New York City.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3079093/

[Mimi428]

Here's one link which shows JonBenet on Christmas day, 1996. Note she is wearing her PJ's, opening her presents - & wearing lipstick.

Top photo here...

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-panic911.htm

So my question is - why would a 6 year old be wearing lipstick in this situation? This is not a pageant photo. It wasn't done for a portfolio. It's not a formal portrait - it's simply a family snapshot, taken in a casual setting, with just the family present.

Anybody else put lipstick on their PJ clad 6 year old before they open their Christmas presents?

Washed face, brushed teeth, combed hair - sure. But lipstick?? Why?

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by Athena

You post all of this stuff and I have yet to see a credible link from you other than from other forums of opionions of other posters.




You haven't been paying attention, then. I've been here for some time, before the Karr fiasco went down, and I can and have provided links to things I say.

Some of the links I post connect you to are from another forum, true, but just as many, if not more, aren't. And just because a link takes you to another forum does not mean the info provided is mere opinion. I follow a lot of JBR boards, and I don't copy other peoples' posts - if someone has done the work and finds a credible source backing info up, I link people into that post, as it is not mine to copy onto another board.


http://www.bouldernews.com/news/local/21ramsey.html

An audio-enhanced 911 tape reveals that JonBenét Ramsey's brother, Burke, was awake when his mother called police to report the little girl's kidnapping at 5:51 a.m.

That conflicts with the girl's parents' consistent statements to investigators that the boy was asleep until 7 a.m. — after police arrived at their home — sources close to the investigation said Thursday.

Those sources say enhancement of the tape reveals Burke's voice in the background, asking his parents "What did you find?" John Ramsey allegedly can be heard shouting to Burke, "We are not talking to you," and Patsy shouts "Oh my Jesus, oh my Jesus."

The statements were recorded after Patsy Ramsey mistakenly thought she had hung up the telephone after making the 911 call.

<snip>

The 911 tape reportedly was enhanced by Aerospace Corp., a southern California company that specializes in defense contracting but began doing work for law enforcement agencies in recent years.

Robert Pentz, director of the National Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology Center for the Western Region, operated by Aerospace Corp. for the National Institute of Justice, said the company had no comment on the tape.

"Even though we acknowledge the fact we do work for law enforcement agencies ... it is a matter of policy we don't comment on cases that are open without written permission of the affected law enforcement agency," Pentz said.

Since the El Segundo, Calif.-based National Law Enforcement & Corrections Technology Center was founded in 1994, it has worked on more than 500 forensic cases, including various types of video and audio exploitation, computer crime and other miscellaneous types of forensics work, Pentz said.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by Athena


Ha! Ha! Did you know his whole testimony was thrown out and he was discredited as an expert witness? He was on Taser's payroll. It is in one of the interrogation interviews. People need to rethink what they post from other forums. They are all full of errors. jmo

I haven't heard that. Are you saying everything he said should be excluded? He wasn't being entirely honest because he was an employee of Air Taser? May I ask for a link discrediting him and his information, please?

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by Mimi428
Here's one link which shows JonBenet on Christmas day, 1996. Note she is wearing her PJ's, opening her presents - & wearing lipstick.

Top photo here...

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-panic911.htm

So my question is - why would a 6 year old be wearing lipstick in this situation? This is not a pageant photo. It wasn't done for a portfolio. It's not a formal portrait - it's simply a family snapshot, taken in a casual setting, with just the family present.

Anybody else put lipstick on their PJ clad 6 year old before they open their Christmas presents?

Washed face, brushed teeth, combed hair - sure. But lipstick?? Why?

Doesn't look like she has lipstick on to me.:shrug:

[Mimi428]

Another photo of JonBenet - this is the one the family chose to appear on the "$100,000 reward" flyer.

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenet-foundations.htm#1997-reward1

Compare to the snapshot in the first thread...

[lucky13]

I wouldn't be surprised if she did have on lipstick, but honestly, I can't really tell.

[rashomon]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

Why else would they change their story after experts heard him on the tape?
Right on, Nuisanceposter. The Ramseys changed their story to make it fit the evidence - a typical behavior of suspects who are in fact guilty.

[rashomon]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

I haven't heard that. Are you saying everything he said should be excluded? He wasn't being entirely honest because he was an employee of Air Taser? May I ask for a link discrediting him and his information, please?
Yes, I'd be very interested in such a link too, Athena. :D

[Athena]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


I haven't heard that. Are you saying everything he said should be excluded? He wasn't being entirely honest because he was an employee of Air Taser? May I ask for a link discrediting him and his information, please?

If you type his last name into key word to search the link will come up. I posted it a couple of days ago.

I am at work right now -- and the bookmarks are on my home PC. If you search and can't find - let me know and I'll post later.

~A

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by Athena


And exactly where is the legal document that says the Ramseys changed their answers. You post all of this stuff and I have yet to see a credible link from you other than from other forums of opionions of other posters. And all that stuff was written BEFORE the 911 tape was released to the public. Another one of Steve Thomas and his cronies' lies. :rolleyes:


In his book, “JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation,” Thomas claimed that by enhancing the tape you can hear John and Patsy talking to their son Burke. He claims that’s important because the Ramseys reportedly told police their son was asleep at the time of the call. If true, Thomas claims it suggests the family was altering their story right from the start.

But both the FBI and Secret Service — who examined the tapes — said such a conversation could not be heard.

NBC News had the tape tested by experts at two different labs that examine 911 tapes to see if there was any conversation after the hang up.

“I would say my findings are much more in parallel with the FBI’s findings. There’s not enough there to give any sort of conclusive, intelligible argument,” says Frank Piazza of Legal Audio in New York City.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3079093/

True.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter



Nor do I see any reason for them to lie about the other things that they've lied about - like whether the doors were locked or not, whether JonBenet was asleep or not, whether they gave her pineapple or not...

They even admitted after the enhanced tape results were made public that Burke had been awake that morning.

How many times do murder suspects get to change their story, and still be believed? If you're a Ramsey, as many times as you want.

How far apart were the interviews and how many different ways did the Boulder PD ask the same question?

[MyrDawn]

I can't compare her lip color in a black and white photo with the color one. I can't tell if she has on lipstick or not. But, if she does, who said someone put it on her? Maybe she did it herself, playing around.

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


Way to just overlook all of the other information in the post - you know, the one that discounts the idea that the marks made on JonBenet were from a stun gun.

I'm not sure what your question is. If it isn't knocking people unconscious, it's not stunning them? Reread that definition you quoted. It does not say a person has to be unconscious to be stunned.

I didn't say they had to be unconcious to stun them, but to say it doesn't imobilze them is ridiculous. Read the ads for the Air Taser on the internet. Read what police department say about Air Tasers.

[harz]

Originally posted by MyrDawn
I can't compare her lip color in a black and white photo with the color one. I can't tell if she has on lipstick or not. But, if she does, who said someone put it on her? Maybe she did it herself, playing around.

I couldn't tell in black & white photo either lol. I think her lipsticks on Christmas day morning was to look pretty for the pictures. It all about looks to Ramseys I guess. I don't like my 7 yrs old daughter to wear make ups, except for her own fun once in awhile is ok with me. I don't know if Ramseys want her to wear lipstick and had her to do it for pictures, or JB had been under pressure to keep her looks pretty by Ramseys that she tend automatically pick up & do the lipstick like a woman daily. JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


You do realize there were other LEs that did not believe the Ramseys killed JBR??? Even the BPD Lawyer -- did not discount an intruder -- Steve Thomas was very upset with him for that and told him "you're supposed to be on our side" -- and the Lawyer explained that he went with the evidence.

The one who told the most lies or info based on innuendos and speculation were the BPD not the DA.

When you are doing research on this case, personally I would not believe anything said or written prior to 2000 with the exception of Schiller's book -- however being aware there have been updates to some of the info he presents. jmho

If I'm to believe Schiller's book, then I'd have to believe the Ramseys spent $150,000 building a "secret room" on the ground floor and that JB's blonde hair was found in the "dumbwaiter."

When I read that, I would have laughed out loud had the case not been so tragic and the information so pitiful. I don't believe a word of it. Or the many meanderings of Globe "reporter" Jeff Shapiro that fill the book.

I usually believe official documents only and even then, I take into consideration the fact that people lie.

I know some of the BPD did think there was a possibility of an intruder, but not many did, and no one was as intimately familiar with the case as Steve Thomas. I don't subscribe to his bedwetting theory, though. Patsy Ramsey had just not been one to get upset over bedwetting. And even Smit and Thomas agreed that the case hinged on the very same seven pieces of key evidence. They just saw that evidence in a different lights.

Still, I can come to no other conclusion than that the Ramseys are guilty.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0307/11/lkl.00.html

KING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) who appeared on this show (UNINTELLIGIBLE) accused Patsy of being the murderer. He was the one that claimed JonBenet's brother, Burke, could be heard at the end of the 911 tape.

WOOD: Absolutely, and that information was leaked out from the Boulder Police Department in September of 1998. Again, allegedly the smoking gun, the objective proof that the Ramseys were lying.

Well, in fact, that conversation is not on that tape. It's been enhanced by the FBI, the Secret Service, they found nothing. I gave it to one of the rival networks, NBC News. They hired two independent experts. They tested it. There absolutely is no voice on there discernible that belongs to Burke or John or Patsy.

I believe the FBI and Secret Service did not hear the voices of Burke and John on the tape, MissOtis.

In PM/PT, Schiller states that the tape had been sent to the Secret Service and they could not find anything on it, but when Det. Harmer took it to the place in California, Burke's and John's voices were clearly heard. This place (name of it is my post above) possessed technology that even the FBI and Secret Service did not possess at that time. (page 372 of the paperback edition of PM/PT)

So, since their technology was more advanced, and since the Ramseys subsequently changed their story to say Burke was awake, I believe the voices were on the tape and the Ramseys initially lied to the police.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


How far apart were the interviews and how many different ways did the Boulder PD ask the same question?

You can look that up on acandyrose. The police interviews are all there.

However, it shouldn't matter. The truth is the truth. A truthful answer doesn't change to suit the emerging evidence.

For example, if Burke didn't wake up until John woke him, then he wasn't awake at the time of the 911 call.

You can change your theory to fit the facts, but you can't change the facts to fit your theory.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


Ha! Ha! Did you know his whole testimony was thrown out and he was discredited as an expert witness? He was on Taser's payroll. It is in one of the interrogation interviews. People need to rethink what they post from other forums. They are all full of errors. jmo

Athena, Steve Tuttle was never called as an expert witness about Air Taser stun guns because he worked for Air Taser. That was Dr. Robert Stratbucker.

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/0123taser23.html

However, research shows that stun guns made in 1996 wouldn't render a parakeet unconscious.

On the last sentence no link right now, so...

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


I didn't say they had to be unconcious to stun them, but to say it doesn't imobilze them is ridiculous. Read the ads for the Air Taser on the internet. Read what police department say about Air Tasers.

It does no good to read the ads for Air Taser that appear on the Internet now. Stun guns in 2006 are vastly different than they were in 1996.

The best thing to do is to talk to a police officer who was using a stun gun in 1996. That's the way I did it. I don't take anyone's word unless I know they have firsthand knowledge.

JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


I'd like to see some proof that the BPD was telling more lies and going on more speculation than the DA's office.

BPD had FBI's CASKU unti backing their theory up. Those guys weren't going on speculation and lies. They were going on the evidence found in the crime scene and on the body.

The Ramseys contradicted their own stories repeatedly and there is just no solid evidence of an intruder...but there's plenty of evidence indicating a Ramsey was involved (specifically Patsy.)

I have to agree with you about using info from after 2000. A lot more information came out as the years went by.

To see the lies, innuendos and speculation of the BPD -- read Thomas' deposition. His answers clearly contradict what the wrote in his book. jmo

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I believe the FBI and Secret Service did not hear the voices of Burke and John on the tape, MissOtis.

In PM/PT, Schiller states that the tape had been sent to the Secret Service and they could not find anything on it, but when Det. Harmer took it to the place in California, Burke's and John's voices were clearly heard. This place (name of it is my post above) possessed technology that even the FBI and Secret Service did not possess at that time. (page 372 of the paperback edition of PM/PT)

So, since their technology was more advanced, and since the Ramseys subsequently changed their story to say Burke was awake, I believe the voices were on the tape and the Ramseys initially lied to the police.

JMO

Thanks, sun. Could you point me to a statement by the Ramseys saying that Burke was awake at the time of the 911 call?

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Athena, Steve Tuttle was never called as an expert witness about Air Taser stun guns because he worked for Air Taser. That was Dr. Robert Stratbucker.

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/0123taser23.html

However, research shows that stun guns made in 1996 wouldn't render a parakeet unconscious.

On the last sentence no link right now, so...

JMO

I was referring to Stratbucker in my post. Just did a search and found the reference. I had posted it originally on 9/4/06 in that Labor Day weekend thread we were all on that has since been closed:

Athena
Senior Member

Registered: May 2005
Location:
Posts: 3882

Just another interesting tidbit. According to the transcripts during the Wolf v Ramsey suit, Robert Stratbucker, the doctor testifying as an expert for the Air Taser Stun Gun was withdrawn as an expert after the depo:

12 MR. HOFFMAN: -- due to the

13 testimony of the deposition today and to

14 consider not only the witness but also the

15 testimony from the witness and looking at it in

16 relation to my theory of the case, I have

17 decided at this point to withdraw Dr. Robert

18 Stratbucker as an expert witness in this

19 particular case with the understanding, of

20 course, that this testimony, of course, can be

21 sealed if counsel for the defense would like

22 that and there will certainly be no either

23 public reference to any of Dr. Stratbucker's

24 theories to this Rule 26 report, to any of the

25 things that he stated today, any conversations

00082

1 he may have had with me formally or informally,

2 or any other communication involving his theory

3 of whether or not stun gun -- a stun gun was

4 used on JonBenet Ramsey.

5 MR. WOOD: Well, let me say this on

6 behalf of the Ramseys. We do not seek for

7 this testimony to be sealed. I mean, we don't

8 have any plans to use it.

9 I mean, the bottom line is with no

10 conditions whatsoever, do you formally and

11 unequivocally withdraw Dr. Stratbucker as an

12 expert witness in this case?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, I do, formally

14 and without any conditions.

15 MR. WOOD: And, likewise, will you

16 stipulate that under no circumstances will you

17 reengage him in any fashion with respect to the

18 Wolf v. Ramsey case in the future?

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely. I will

20 not reengage him in any way.

21 MR. WOOD: With that stipulation,

22 then there is obviously no reason for us to

23 continue the deposition today. So the

24 deposition is terminated in light of the

25 witness' withdrawal by counsel for plaintiff.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/0...ratbuckerMd.htm

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks, sun. Could you point me to a statement by the Ramseys saying that Burke was awake at the time of the 911 call?

I have it somewhere here, MissOtis. I'll look for it and get back to you as soon as I can. I have too many things bookmarked. I'll have to clean them out some day. LOL

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


I was referring to Stratbucker in my post. Just did a search and found the reference. I had posted it originally on 9/4/06 in that Labor Day weekend thread we were all on that has since been closed:

Athena
Senior Member

Registered: May 2005
Location:
Posts: 3882

Just another interesting tidbit. According to the transcripts during the Wolf v Ramsey suit, Robert Stratbucker, the doctor testifying as an expert for the Air Taser Stun Gun was withdrawn as an expert after the depo:

12 MR. HOFFMAN: -- due to the

13 testimony of the deposition today and to

14 consider not only the witness but also the

15 testimony from the witness and looking at it in

16 relation to my theory of the case, I have

17 decided at this point to withdraw Dr. Robert

18 Stratbucker as an expert witness in this

19 particular case with the understanding, of

20 course, that this testimony, of course, can be

21 sealed if counsel for the defense would like

22 that and there will certainly be no either

23 public reference to any of Dr. Stratbucker's

24 theories to this Rule 26 report, to any of the

25 things that he stated today, any conversations

00082

1 he may have had with me formally or informally,

2 or any other communication involving his theory

3 of whether or not stun gun -- a stun gun was

4 used on JonBenet Ramsey.

5 MR. WOOD: Well, let me say this on

6 behalf of the Ramseys. We do not seek for

7 this testimony to be sealed. I mean, we don't

8 have any plans to use it.

9 I mean, the bottom line is with no

10 conditions whatsoever, do you formally and

11 unequivocally withdraw Dr. Stratbucker as an

12 expert witness in this case?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes, I do, formally

14 and without any conditions.

15 MR. WOOD: And, likewise, will you

16 stipulate that under no circumstances will you

17 reengage him in any fashion with respect to the

18 Wolf v. Ramsey case in the future?

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Absolutely. I will

20 not reengage him in any way.

21 MR. WOOD: With that stipulation,

22 then there is obviously no reason for us to

23 continue the deposition today. So the

24 deposition is terminated in light of the

25 witness' withdrawal by counsel for plaintiff.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/0...ratbuckerMd.htm

Thanks, Athena. I thought you were referring to him and not Steve Tuttle. Yes, Stratbucker was disqualified in Wolf vs. Ramsey. I agree.

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks, sun. Could you point me to a statement by the Ramseys saying that Burke was awake at the time of the 911 call?

Actually just the opposite: p 687 PMPT (Patsy Ramsey)

For the first time she (Patsy) was asked about the conversation with Burke that the police had discovered on the 911 enhanced tape. She knew nothing about it, she said. Her story remained the same: Burke was asleep.

p690 John Ramsey: He was sure Burke was in his room and asleep. There had been no conversation between them.

[harz]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks, sun. Could you point me to a statement by the Ramseys saying that Burke was awake at the time of the 911 call?

http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm

I thought Ramseys said Bruke was sleeping during 911 call. IMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


Actually just the opposite: p 687 PMPT (Patsy Ramsey)

For the first time she (Patsy) was asked about the conversation with Burke that the police had discovered on the 911 enhanced tape. She knew nothing about it, she said. Her story remained the same: Burke was asleep.

p690 John Ramsey: He was sure Burke was in his room and asleep. There had been no conversation between them.

But as you pointed out to me earlier today, the book can't be relied upon for everything.

I have the links about changing their story here somewhere, but it's going to take me awhile to find them among all my hundreds of links. And, I need to go out later tonight.

But I'll keep looking.

JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I believe the FBI and Secret Service did not hear the voices of Burke and John on the tape, MissOtis.

In PM/PT, Schiller states that the tape had been sent to the Secret Service and they could not find anything on it, but when Det. Harmer took it to the place in California, Burke's and John's voices were clearly heard. This place (name of it is my post above) possessed technology that even the FBI and Secret Service did not possess at that time. (page 372 of the paperback edition of PM/PT)

So, since their technology was more advanced, and since the Ramseys subsequently changed their story to say Burke was awake, I believe the voices were on the tape and the Ramseys initially lied to the police.

JMO

Here's my problem with what Schiller reports in his book -- the info came from the BPD specifically Thomas and Trujillo. jmo

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by Athena


Here's my problem with what Schiller reports in his book -- the info came from the BPD specifically Thomas and Trujillo. jmo

Actually, I've never heard/read where the Ramseys changed their story to say Burke was awake. I understand Burke told the PD in one of his interviews that he was awake but pretended to be asleep until they came to get him up to go to the Fernies. JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


Here's my problem with what Schiller reports in his book -- the info came from the BPD specifically Thomas and Trujillo. jmo

Actually, it came from Aerospace Corporation, Athena, and from Melissa Hickman.

Trujillo supplied the Secret Service report that said there were no other voices on the tape. Or none that could be detected.

(page 372, paperback edition PM/PT)

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Actually, I've never heard/read where the Ramseys changed their story to say Burke was awake. I understand Burke told the PD in one of his interviews that he was awake but pretended to be asleep until they came to get him up to go to the Fernies. JMO

That makes sense since you didn't know Melissa Hickman heard the voices of Burke and John on the enhanced tape of the 911 call, but it's on page 372 of PM/PT.

JMO

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


That makes sense since you didn't know Melissa Hickman heard the voices of Burke and John on the enhanced tape of the 911 call, but it's on page 372 of PM/PT.

JMO

Well, I'll admit it. I'm not like some people - I don't know everything.

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Actually, it came from Aerospace Corporation, Athena, and from Melissa Hickman.

Trujillo supplied the Secret Service report that said there were no other voices on the tape. Or none that could be detected.

(page 372, paperback edition PM/PT)

Schiller did not interview Hickman -- Thomas did and he is the one to tell Schiller. When the 911 tape was actually released to the public -- guess what? Aerospace had no comment -- interesting.

Just what happened after Patsy hung up the phone has been debated in law enforcement circles. One former Boulder police detective, Steve Thomas, believes after Patsy hung up, the phone didn’t really disconnect.

In his book, “JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation,” Thomas claimed that by enhancing the tape you can hear John and Patsy talking to their son Burke. He claims that’s important because the Ramseys reportedly told police their son was asleep at the time of the call. If true, Thomas claims it suggests the family was altering their story right from the start.

But both the FBI and Secret Service — who examined the tapes — said such a conversation could not be heard.

NBC News had the tape tested by experts at two different labs that examine 911 tapes to see if there was any conversation after the hang up.

“I would say my findings are much more in parallel with the FBI’s findings. There’s not enough there to give any sort of conclusive, intelligible argument,” says Frank Piazza of Legal Audio in New York City.

David Mariasy from Team Audio in Toledo, Ohio, agrees. “When it was suggested that we look for these other lines of dialogue and there’s two or three other people after the hang up, that didn’t happen,” he says.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3079093/

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by harz


http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm

I thought Ramseys said Bruke was sleeping during 911 call. IMO

Thanks, harz.

http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm

The National Enquirer Article - April 3, 2001

In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

"Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

"Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

Until being questioned by The ENQUIRER, the Ramseys had always insisted that Burke was still sleeping when police arrived at their home after Patsy's 911 call.

But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police."

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks, harz.

http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm

The National Enquirer Article - April 3, 2001

In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

"Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

"Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

Until being questioned by The ENQUIRER, the Ramseys had always insisted that Burke was still sleeping when police arrived at their home after Patsy's 911 call.

But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police."

I, too, have one here someplace, MissOtis and harz (a different one), but I'm still looking for mine. :(

[diplomat]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Well, I'll admit it. I'm not like some people - I don't know everything.

No one does. Some are just under the misguided notion that they do and that makes them feel important. The true historians of this case seem to be well read, researched, and open to new ideas, and well aware of the difference between facts and innuendo.

JMO.

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks, harz.

http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm

The National Enquirer Article - April 3, 2001

In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

"Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

"Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

Until being questioned by The ENQUIRER, the Ramseys had always insisted that Burke was still sleeping when police arrived at their home after Patsy's 911 call.

But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police."

OK -- but they did not find out he was awake until 2 1/2 years later. There still was no conversation with him DURING the 911 call. It just firms up what some people have said about him pretending to be asleep. I still do not believe his voice was heard on that 911 call. jmo

* Even though it's almost inconceivable that John and Patsy wouldn't talk to Burke about the murder, they say they didn't find out Burke was awake the morning of the tragedy until he testified before a grand jury nearly two and a half years later!"

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


Schiller did not interview Hickman -- Thomas did and he is the one to tell Schiller. When the 911 tape was actually released to the public -- guess what? Aerospace had no comment -- interesting.

Just what happened after Patsy hung up the phone has been debated in law enforcement circles. One former Boulder police detective, Steve Thomas, believes after Patsy hung up, the phone didn’t really disconnect.

In his book, “JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation,” Thomas claimed that by enhancing the tape you can hear John and Patsy talking to their son Burke. He claims that’s important because the Ramseys reportedly told police their son was asleep at the time of the call. If true, Thomas claims it suggests the family was altering their story right from the start.

But both the FBI and Secret Service — who examined the tapes — said such a conversation could not be heard.

NBC News had the tape tested by experts at two different labs that examine 911 tapes to see if there was any conversation after the hang up.

“I would say my findings are much more in parallel with the FBI’s findings. There’s not enough there to give any sort of conclusive, intelligible argument,” says Frank Piazza of Legal Audio in New York City.

David Mariasy from Team Audio in Toledo, Ohio, agrees. “When it was suggested that we look for these other lines of dialogue and there’s two or three other people after the hang up, that didn’t happen,” he says.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3079093/

In PM/PT, it says that the FBI and the Secret Service could not hear the voices on the audio tape. I don't think anyone is doubting that, not even those of us who believe the Ramseys guilty.

I have not read Steve Thomas' book, so I don't know what it says. I only know he thought Patsy killed JB after a bedwetting incident.

But the report of the enchanced call came from Melissa Hickman, not Thomas or Trujillo. It's right on page 372.

On April 23, Detective Melissa Hickman returned to Boulder from the Aerospace Corporation in El Segundo, California. In addition to its work for the government, the company did sound and photographic enhancement on a nonprofit basis for law enforcement agencies, using state-of-the-art technology. Hickman had taken the audio tape of Patsy Ramsey's 911 call to the Southern California firm. The tape included a few additional seconds of sound along with Patsy's frantic call for help, sounds that may have been recorded when she replaced the headset improperly. The police had been unable to decipher the additional sounds....Aerospace used a different technology, and voices in the background could now be heard more clearly.

(page 372, PM/PT)

No mention of Steve Thomas.

[diplomat]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks, harz.

http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm

The National Enquirer Article - April 3, 2001

In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

"Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

"Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

Until being questioned by The ENQUIRER, the Ramseys had always insisted that Burke was still sleeping when police arrived at their home after Patsy's 911 call.

But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police."

Burke had lived through the stress of Patsy's cancer scare. It's not surprising that he would pretend to be asleep when he heard the noise, is it? John found out that Burke was awake when Burke told them that fact. Not because he knew Burke was awake and lied about it. Two totally different things.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by diplomat


No one does. Some are just under the misguided notion that they do and that makes them feel important. The true historians of this case seem to be well read, researched, and open to new ideas, and well aware of the difference between facts and innuendo.

JMO.

That is correct. And I've noticed that the ones who think they know everything refuse to post links, refuse to look for them, refuse to look at anything that they are not emotionally invested in, and prefer, instead to simply attack other posters whose opinion differs from theirs. (I do not mean you.)

Childish and gets no one anywhere. Certainly doesn't advance their cause.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by diplomat


Burke had lived through the stress of Patsy's cancer scare. It's not surprising that he would pretend to be asleep when he heard the noise, is it? John found out that Burke was awake when Burke told them that fact. Not because he knew Burke was awake and lied about it. Two totally different things.

But this:

"But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police."

...is the important line. John admits that he lied to the police. That puts the Ramseys credibility about everything into question with most people.

JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


In PM/PT, it says that the FBI and the Secret Service could not hear the voices on the audio tape. I don't think anyone is doubting that, not even those of us who believe the Ramseys guilty.

I have not read Steve Thomas' book, so I don't know what it says. I only know he thought Patsy killed JB after a bedwetting incident.

But the report of the enchanced call came from Melissa Hickman, not Thomas or Trujillo. It's right on page 372.

On April 23, Detective Melissa Hickman returned to Boulder from the Aerospace Corporation in El Segundo, California. In addition to its work for the government, the company did sound and photographic enhancement on a nonprofit basis for law enforcement agencies, using state-of-the-art technology. Hickman had taken the audio tape of Patsy Ramsey's 911 call to the Southern California firm. The tape included a few additional seconds of sound along with Patsy's frantic call for help, sounds that may have been recorded when she replaced the headset improperly. The police had been unable to decipher the additional sounds....Aerospace used a different technology, and voices in the background could now be heard more clearly.

(page 372, PM/PT)

No mention of Steve Thomas.

Sun -- Melissa Hickman is a BPD Detective who was removed from the case along with Linda Arndt. She worked with Steve Thomas - just another cronie of his and they leaked the false info UNTIL the 911 tape was released to the public.

If I read something where an employee of Aerospace states that was the case - maybe then I will believe it. So far the only ones I can find that say this was heard on that tape was the early investigators of the BPD. When Aerospace was asked about this enhancement and what was heard - they said "no comment" and I believe that was so they would not embarrass the BPD. I am looking for a link to this statement because I know I read that so for now jmo

[sweetcharlotte]

Here's a link to a March 2000 transcript from LKL where John Ramsey and LKL discuss the PD's claim that Burke could be heard on the tape. Basically, John Ramsey's response was, "let's hear the tape."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0003/27/lkl.00.html

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


But this:

"But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police."

...is the important line. John admits that he lied to the police. That puts the Ramseys credibility about everything into question with most people.

JMO

He could not have lied about Burke being awake if he did not find out about it until 2 1/2 years later. Come on Sun :shrug:

[diplomat]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Actually, I've never heard/read where the Ramseys changed their story to say Burke was awake. I understand Burke told the PD in one of his interviews that he was awake but pretended to be asleep until they came to get him up to go to the Fernies. JMO

Exactly. John did not lie because he did think Burke was asleep that morning until Burke said he had actually been awake but pretended to be asleep.

[Athena]

Originally posted by diplomat


Exactly. John did not lie because he did think Burke was asleep that morning until Burke said he had actually been awake but pretended to be asleep.

And JR didn't find out about it until 2 1/2 years later when Burke testified in front of the Grand Jury. You can't lie if you didn't know!


"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
JFK

[sunsplashed]

Aerospace might have said "No comment" to some people, but not to all:

Aerospace made a statement to say that they stand by their work:

"We stand by our work," Linda Brill, spokesperson for The Aerospace Corporation of El Segundo, Calif., told the Enquirer.

The company maintains a division of a Department of Justice - funded institute that offers space-age expertise to police departments nationwide.

"We are top shelf," said Brill. The NE broke the story about the 911 call in a world exclusive published in our Sept.1, 1998, edition.

Many people heard the enhanced tape played on television and heard the voices.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


He could not have lied about Burke being awake if he did not find out about it until 2 1/2 years later. Come on Sun :shrug:

Not if he didn't find out until then, however, I believe the tape and I believe John and Burke spoke during the 911 call.

JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Not if he didn't find out until then, however, I believe the tape and I believe John and Burke spoke during the 911 call.

JMO

Hey Sun -- we will have to agree to disagree on this one!!! :)

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by diplomat


Burke had lived through the stress of Patsy's cancer scare. It's not surprising that he would pretend to be asleep when he heard the noise, is it? John found out that Burke was awake when Burke told them that fact. Not because he knew Burke was awake and lied about it. Two totally different things.

But, being the National Enquirer, they are interested only in giving the impression that Burke was up at the time of the 911 call and that they have uncovered a smoking gun. This quote from John is undoubtedly taken out of context:

"Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

:no:

[diplomat]

Originally posted by Athena


And JR didn't find out about it until 2 1/2 years later when Burke testified in front of the Grand Jury. You can't lie if you didn't know!


"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
JFK

Would you say then that a good portion of this board is mythological?

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


Hey Sun -- we will have to agree to disagree on this one!!! :)

That's fine. I don't mind if people disagree with me. :)

For anyone who's interested, here's a thread where people are discussing the tape. Granted, it's just another forum, but it has some good stuff on it, for both sides:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-7649

One of the posters even suggests that Mary Lacy, who was a friend of the Ramseys, removed John's and Burke's voices before releasing the tape.

I can see why Aerospace would eventually have "no comment."

JMO

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


But, being the National Enquirer, they are interested only in giving the impression that Burke was up at the time of the 911 call and that they have uncovered a smoking gun. This quote from John is undoubtedly taken out of context:

"Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

:no:

:lol: Actually, I can tell you that it WAS taken out of context, as can the other posters here from the Blake board. Shellie Samuels, Gerald Schwartzbach, and a reporter from the National Enquirer fought it out in the middle of Blake's criminal trial over the way the National Enquirer very carefully punctuates their stories.

[sunsplashed]

And, another lab, while not finding John's and Burke's voices, did hear typing at a keyboard at the end of the call, which proved Lin Wood was not being truthful:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4576

Scans of the actual documents can be found.

[Xainia]

The string around the dolls neck is to hold the head onto the cloth body.

My daughters makes Porcelain dolls and this is the method of attachment.

The heads have a groove that runs around the neck.
The cloth body has a draw string.
The body is placed over the neck and the draw string tightened.

If you magnify this image you can clearly see it is a cloth body.
http://i5.ebayimg.com/03/i/08/5a/af/64_12.JPG

Lots of dolls are made this way. The head, arms and legs are often solid while the body is soft fabric with a fill.

You should also do reseach on American Girl dolls as some do have eyes that open and close.

They also have eyes which open and close, and their faces are accented with ... That's right, American Girl dolls were actually a Gotz creation

and


Okay the American Girl is more of a playline but still why would they cost almost $90?
I was at the official website several times but could not find any justification for the price.
Yes these dolls close and open their eyes, yes they have nice looking outfits but why would moving eyes make the price so high?




http://www.epinions.com/content_4845838468

Xainia

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by treehouse
Thanks for that Xenia. I have made dollies, and stuffed animals and creatures myself. If I see some kind of strings hanging around I assume someone s*cks at sewing as bad as me.

:lol:

You should see my sewing room! I have an emboirdery machine, and I have to clip a zillion little thread ends from all the "jump" stitches when I embroider something on it. Some of them are tiny, and I don't notice them falling, then they stick to my clothes and end up getting dragged around the house.

I'm puzzled about that doll... I don't see what the big deal is. It's an American Girl doll. They all have that string, don't they?

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by treehouse


Dolls are weird scary stuff. How dare you be so careless as to let threads and stuff...........can't finish just laughing......I have to brush myself off when wearing black........Why don't you......just kidding....Oh, I used to love all the fancy stitching features of sewing machines. ...Yeah, threads all over the place. But, the cats have fun with it. Oh, what the heck, I've gotten a little too chubby for the little black dress.

Now, about the doll, and cords, or threads, or whatever. Yeah, what? I don't get it. I just don't. ...don't see any link to the murder of little girl.

PM sent...

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by sunsplashed
And, another lab, while not finding John's and Burke's voices, did hear typing at a keyboard at the end of the call, which proved Lin Wood was not being truthful:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4576

Scans of the actual documents can be found.

Wasn't the line still open to the 911 operator?

[Athena]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


Wasn't the line still open to the 911 operator?

Personally I believe that is what some are missing. Although Patsy hung the phone up the 911 operator still had the line open - and the background noises heard on the tape were from the office of the 911 operator not the Ramsey residence. JMO

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by Athena


Personally I believe that is what some are missing. Although Patsy hung the phone up the 911 operator still had the line open - and the background noises heard on the tape were from the office of the 911 operator not the Ramsey residence. JMO

Yep. I don't see how they can have a recording of that part of the call if the line wasn't still open. And, what 911 operator doesn't have a computer system linked, or doesn't use type info on that keyboard when a call comes in? Even if there was only one 911 operator in the room, it could easily be the operator typing on that keyboard that was heard after Patsy ended the call. Voices, too, if there are any. The days they used pen and paper were long gone by 1996

[Athena]

Audio tape of 911 call:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/patsy911-FFJ.mp3

[Ames]

Originally posted by Xainia
The string around the dolls neck is to hold the head onto the cloth body.

My daughters makes Porcelain dolls and this is the method of attachment.

The heads have a groove that runs around the neck.
The cloth body has a draw string.
The body is placed over the neck and the draw string tightened.

If you magnify this image you can clearly see it is a cloth body.
http://i5.ebayimg.com/03/i/08/5a/af/64_12.JPG

Lots of dolls are made this way. The head, arms and legs are often solid while the body is soft fabric with a fill.

You should also do reseach on American Girl dolls as some do have eyes that open and close.



and





http://www.epinions.com/content_4845838468

Xainia

Hi, the doll that Patsy referred to, that looked like "JB in a coffin" (with its eyes closed) was the MY TWINN doll, not an American Girl doll. They are two different dolls altogether, and everyone of the MY TWINN (yes, its spelled with two N's), dolls that I have ever seen, doesn't have eyes that close. IMO

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by victims feel
Tree, it is the slip or subconscious slip that Patsey made reference to a doll with her eyes closed/open and the similarities to JB as she lay dead that is what is poignant here. OK..I hope this doesn't get me into trouble.....but...many christians that I know and have known are warned in dreams before they die...they do not always know how it is going to happen...but they know...and one thing that bothers me is..JB told someone that Santa was going to visit her again Christmas night...sometimes family members are warned, too..even though they don't always heed the warning and brush it off as a bad dream..maybe Patsy and JB both were warned of her coming death....a lady in my church who lost her 10 y/o son...told us she had scolded him for not getting his homework...he said "mom, I'm not going to need it"...while the parents were out..he and his small cousing got out his dad's gun to play with...he was killed in an accident from it...I could relate much more...but you` all get my point, I hope! :)

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by victims feel
You will have to ask Mimi for clarification, I didnot seem to have the same difficulty you are having on the same issue.

Then I read the rest of your post and realized you are just a troll like your pal here. Victim...that was unfair...I don't believe that Treehouse or Myr either one are trolls! :confused:

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by treehouse
The doll was crafted to ressemble JonBenet? The mother had a terrible glimpse of what her own child would look like in a coffin?

I don't see anything incriminating in her writing.

Now, if you don't stop grasping at straws, I'll keep telling my own personal tales. I got one bout pig slop you might like. Just kidding...You will turn me in. Sick of being in a treehouse anyway, lol.

MOO IMO some are just seeing shadows and believe it is ghosts!!! There is nothing incriminating imo!

[diplomat]

Originally posted by Athena


Personally I believe that is what some are missing. Although Patsy hung the phone up the 911 operator still had the line open - and the background noises heard on the tape were from the office of the 911 operator not the Ramsey residence. JMO

For anyone without a hearing problem there are clearly no voices other than Patsy and the 911 operator on the line. There is a little background noise which does not equate to a voice(s). I have listened to another 911 call where it is questionable whether there is another voice in the background and from that experience it becomes even clearer there are no background voices on the Ramsey/911 tape.

[diplomat]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


That makes sense since you didn't know Melissa Hickman heard the voices of Burke and John on the enhanced tape of the 911 call, but it's on page 372 of PM/PT.

JMO

If Melissa thinks she heard the voices of Burke and John on that tape, then she should consult an Ear, Nose and Throat doctor. That or a psychiatrist. Hearing voices that aren't there is not good.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by victims feel
You will have to ask Mimi for clarification, I didnot seem to have the same difficulty you are having on the same issue.

Then I read the rest of your post and realized you are just a troll like your pal here.

NO CHOCOLATES FOR YOU!!! :cuss:

Vf, MyrDawn is not a troll. I spent over three years on the Blake board with her. Her only problem is she wants evidence.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Victim...that was unfair...I don't believe that Treehouse or Myr either one are trolls! :confused:

I have come to realize that some people's definition of a troll is anyone who disagrees with them or asks questions they cannot answer. JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by diplomat


If Melissa thinks she heard the voices of Burke and John on that tape, then she should consult an Ear, Nose and Throat doctor. That or a psychiatrist. Hearing voices that aren't there is not good.

Maybe she did visit a psychiatrist. She was removed from the Ramsey case early on. :eek:

[Athena]

Originally posted by Ames


Hi, the doll that Patsy referred to, that looked like "JB in a coffin" (with its eyes closed) was the MY TWINN doll, not an American Girl doll. They are two different dolls altogether, and everyone of the MY TWINN (yes, its spelled with two N's), dolls that I have ever seen, doesn't have eyes that close. IMO

MY TWINN dolls are also CUSTOM MADE - how do you know her eyes did not close?

They also can be made poseable or non-poseable so which did Patsy order????? jmo

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Athena


MY TWINN dolls are also CUSTOM MADE - how do you know her eyes did not close?

They also can be made poseable or non-poseable so which did Patsy order????? jmo

The customizing is only in facial shape, hair color, clothing & such. Basic doll head, then add features. I have been looking at these dolls all week long on ebay. I can state I have seen not one with eyes that open & close that is stated to have been produced during the time that JonBenet was living. I included a link to an auction which is still running - go look for yourself.

If you want to do a search & find one with eyes that can close - be my guest.

[Athena]

Not that I believe the eyes open or closed make any difference -- geez Patsy made a comment about seeing this doll looking like her daughter in death -- what is the big deal if the eyes were open or closed?

Anyway I have looked at various MY TWINN dolls and on ebay and nothing is mentioned about whether or not the eyes open or close so how do you know if they do or not???

Basically it says everything on the face is painted except the eyes which probably because acrylic eyes are inserted into the face. So I'm not getting all the fuss. jmho

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by diplomat


For anyone without a hearing problem there are clearly no voices other than Patsy and the 911 operator on the line. There is a little background noise which does not equate to a voice(s). I have listened to another 911 call where it is questionable whether there is another voice in the background and from that experience it becomes even clearer there are no background voices on the Ramsey/911 tape.

People need to read and research and stop bending the truth.

None of the tapes available today have John's or Burke's voices on them. No one disputes that. Even the BPD and Melissa Hickman made it perfectly clear that NO VOICES could be heard on any tape but the original.

It's like all the people who complain because some who say Patsy wrote the ransom note are only looking at a COPY. The tapes on the Internet are COPIES, and copies that were released by Mary Keenan after she allegedly "doctored" it to suit her.

Of course you can't hear anything else on the copy, hearing problem or not.

JMO

[Ames]

Originally posted by Athena


MY TWINN dolls are also CUSTOM MADE - how do you know her eyes did not close?

They also can be made poseable or non-poseable so which did Patsy order????? jmo

Hi there...yes, I know that they are custom made. I was just stating that the ones that I have seen, do not have closable eyes. Maybe, JB's did, though. I don't know. IMO

[Ames]

Originally posted by Athena

<snipped>

Not that I believe the eyes open or closed make any difference -- geez Patsy made a comment about seeing this doll looking like her daughter in death -- what is the big deal if the eyes were open or closed?

So I'm not getting all the fuss. jmho

Probably because Patsy said that it looked like JB in a coffin...and I don't know about YOU, but personally....I have never seen a dead person in a coffin, with their eyes OPEN. IMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by Ames


Hi there...yes, I know that they are custom made. I was just stating that the ones that I have seen, do not have closable eyes. Maybe, JB's did, though. I don't know. IMO

Hi Ames,

Well I don't know either - guess I just don't understand all of the hoopla about the eyes being closed.

Another thought: just as some believe the eyes don't close -- could it be possible that she got that fact correct and mixed up the dolls. There are American Girl Twin Dolls and I know their eyes close. :shrug:

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


People need to read and research and stop bending the truth.

None of the tapes available today have John's or Burke's voices on them. No one disputes that. Even the BPD and Melissa Hickman made it perfectly clear that NO VOICES could be heard on any tape but the original.

It's like all the people who complain because some who say Patsy wrote the ransom note are only looking at a COPY. The tapes on the Internet are COPIES, and copies that were released by Mary Keenan after she allegedly "doctored" it to suit her.

Of course you can't hear anything else on the copy, hearing problem or not.

JMO

Sun - don't know who you are referring to re: bending the truth. But the only thing I've seen about this original 911 tape was that it WAS NOT released to the public and the only ones that heard them were those posters who you link to who can be bending the truth and we all know the BPD did. The media reports were just repeating BPD's leaks. So until I hear the original tape and can form a different opinion on my own -- there are no additional voices. JMO

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


Sun - don't know who you are referring to re: bending the truth. But the only thing I've seen about this original 911 tape was that it WAS NOT released to the public and the only ones that heard them were those posters who you link to who can be bending the truth and we all know the BPD did. The media reports were just repeating BPD's leaks. So until I hear the original tape and can form a different opinion on my own -- there are no additional voices. JMO

I was not referring to you bending the truth, Athena. I never see that in your posts even though we disagree. I just see two different conclusions.

No, I know the original 911 tape was not released to the public and I agree that the typing noises were probably coming from the 911 operator. That makes perfect sense to me.

I have never heard other voices on the tape because all I've heard is a copy, of course. And, none of us will ever hear the original tape.

However, if PM/PT is to be believed, Aerospace did hear Burke's and John's voices, so I'm not going to come to any conclusion about the tape.

And, I can't say the BPD lied or twisted the truth, either. I don't know the truth in this case. I only know what I think.

JMO

[Ames]

Originally posted by Athena


Hi Ames,

Well I don't know either - guess I just don't understand all of the hoopla about the eyes being closed.

Another thought: just as some believe the eyes don't close -- could it be possible that she got that fact correct and mixed up the dolls. There are American Girl Twin Dolls and I know their eyes close. :shrug:

I didn't know that there were American Girl Twin Dolls. Thanks for clarifying. imo

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Athena


Hi Ames,

Well I don't know either - guess I just don't understand all of the hoopla about the eyes being closed.

Another thought: just as some believe the eyes don't close -- could it be possible that she got that fact correct and mixed up the dolls. There are American Girl Twin Dolls and I know their eyes close. :shrug:

Are the American Girl twin dolls custom made to look like a living child?

Or are they simply two dolls - twins?

We know JonBenet had several American Girl dolls - each constructed with a string around the neck. Seeing that, after seeing the autopsy photos is rather unnerving, to ME. This is one issue.

Totally separate issue is Patsy claiming that she looked at a doll which was custom made to look like JonBenet. She relates that seeing the doll with closed eyes made her think of seeing JonBenet (with closed eyes) lying in her casket. We know the doll she was referring to could not have closed eyes in the first place.

Many dolls, but different issues.

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Ames


Probably because Patsy said that it looked like JB in a coffin...and I don't know about YOU, but personally....I have never seen a dead person in a coffin, with their eyes OPEN. IMO

I sure haven't either.

[rashomon]

I'm not sure if JB is wearing lipstick but I think she is wearing black mascara. The picture also shows that her hair was dyed blond. This can also be seen in the autopsy pictures (from the back of her neck), and the coroner mentioned it too.

[cantaloupe]

Well the lipstick I can understand---my kids drove me crazy playing dress up and putting on lipstick----but DYEING a kid's hair? Now that is werid.

[Ames]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Are the American Girl twin dolls custom made to look like a living child?

Or are they simply two dolls - twins?

We know JonBenet had several American Girl dolls - each constructed with a string around the neck. Seeing that, after seeing the autopsy photos is rather unnerving, to ME. This is one issue.

Totally separate issue is Patsy claiming that she looked at a doll which was custom made to look like JonBenet. She relates that seeing the doll with closed eyes made her think of seeing JonBenet (with closed eyes) lying in her casket. We know the doll she was referring to could not have closed eyes in the first place.

Many dolls, but different issues.

Well, personally...my daughter's get the American Girl magazine, and I have NEVER seen one in there that can be made to look like an actual child. The MY TWINN doll, is the ONLY one that I know of that you can do that with. So, she may have had an American Girl Doll that resembled her, somehow...but, with the MY TWINN doll, you can actually fill out a questionaire, and pick the eye color, hair color, freckles/no freckles, glasses/no glasses, etc...to personalize it. To my knowledge, there is NOT an American Girl doll, that you can do that with. IMO

[Mimi428]

Originally posted by Ames


Well, personally...my daughter's get the American Girl magazine, and I have NEVER seen one in there that can be made to look like an actual child. The MY TWINN doll, is the ONLY one that I know of that you can do that with. So, she may have had an American Girl Doll that resembled her, somehow...but, with the MY TWINN doll, you can actually fill out a questionaire, and pick the eye color, hair color, freckles/no freckles, glasses/no glasses, etc...to personalize it. To my knowledge, there is NOT an American Girl doll, that you can do that with. IMO

Your descriptions are exactly what I have found out this week, Ames. My own daughter was too old for the "doll stage" when the American Girl dolls were 'big stuff' back in the 90's, so I am was not entirely familiar with them. I do know that the line was expanded once Mattel took over ownership in the late 90's.

One thing that I find rather ironic & pretty humorous is that the "My Twinn" Dolls are being sold right & left on ebay. All day, every day, day after day. It appears that the finished product just wasn't quite as remarkable in resemblence to the recipient child - other than hair color, freckles, eye color, etc.

There is a great guide on ebay about American Doll production history. To me, the Felicity doll, who has long blonde hair & was produced beginning in 1991 could be said to resemble JonBenet.

JMO

[Ames]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Your descriptions are exactly what I have found out this week, Ames. My own daughter was too old for the "doll stage" when the American Girl dolls were 'big stuff' back in the 90's, so I am was not entirely familiar with them. I do know that the line was expanded once Mattel took over ownership in the late 90's.

One thing that I find rather ironic & pretty humorous is that the "My Twinn" Dolls are being sold right & left on ebay. All day, every day, day after day. It appears that the finished product just wasn't quite as remarkable in resemblence to the recipient child - other than hair color, freckles, eye color, etc.

There is a great guide on ebay about American Doll production history. To me, the Felicity doll, who has long blonde hair & was produced beginning in 1991 could be said to resemble JonBenet.

JMO

Well, I THINK that they use the SAME mold for the facial features (same size forehead, chin, cheeks, etc.) on all of them, just changing around the eye and hair color...adding a freckle or two etc. That, in my opinion, is why the doll doesn't look as much like the recipient child, as it could, if they could find a way to have an exact replica of the child's facial features (chin, cheeks..etc.) I BELIEVE that I have just stated the same exact thing that YOU did in your post, only mine is all drawn out, and rambling...LOL

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Victim...that was unfair...I don't believe that Treehouse or Myr either one are trolls! :confused:

We didn't agree with her, and we asked for proof when she said she has no doubt PR was a child victim of molestation.

That makes us trolls, you know. :rolleyes:

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by Mimi428


Are the American Girl twin dolls custom made to look like a living child?

Or are they simply two dolls - twins?

We know JonBenet had several American Girl dolls - each constructed with a string around the neck. Seeing that, after seeing the autopsy photos is rather unnerving, to ME. This is one issue.

Totally separate issue is Patsy claiming that she looked at a doll which was custom made to look like JonBenet. She relates that seeing the doll with closed eyes made her think of seeing JonBenet (with closed eyes) lying in her casket. We know the doll she was referring to could not have closed eyes in the first place.

Many dolls, but different issues.

Did Patsy or anyone say it was a My Twinn doll? Isn't it possible that custom made doll was an America Girl custom made doll? Since JonBenet collected American Girl dolls, it seems logical Patsy would order one of their cusom dolls instead of another brand, IMO.

American Girl has a line called "Just Like You", that is a custom made doll, where the purchaser selects skin tone, hair, and eye color, and clothing, just like the My Twinn doll. And, I don't know about the new ones, but back in the mid 90's, the American Girl dolls had what they called "sleep" eyes that opened and closed.

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by Ames


Hi, the doll that Patsy referred to, that looked like "JB in a coffin" (with its eyes closed) was the MY TWINN doll, not an American Girl doll. They are two different dolls altogether, and everyone of the MY TWINN (yes, its spelled with two N's), dolls that I have ever seen, doesn't have eyes that close. IMO

Ames, can you please show me where it says the one Patsy bought was a MY TWINN doll? I've looked everywhere, but can't find anything that says that. TIA