In Defense of Patsy & John Ramsey

[shill]

Originally posted by docg


The police arrived long before he expected them to. I think he broke the window as part of an intruder staging, but his staging wasn't yet complete. When the police noticed no prints outside he must have panicked and decided to unstage. Why panick and unstage the window when his whole ploy was based on an intruder? It seemed believable enough as is, and if he staged it, he knew they would find no prints on the window, or the house.

[shill]

Originally posted by docg


And you know he's a first time killer how? Because he was a "respectable businessman"? John Ramsey spent a great deal of his time away from home, on various "business trips." He even spent the best part of Xmas day away from home, at the airport. He was obviously NOT the type of dad he's been portrayed as, focused on home, wife, family and kids. We actually know very little about him, especially since he spent so much of his time abroad.

Far too many assumptions have been made regarding this family and this case. I prefer to stick with the evidence. Wow...take down John and who knows how many unsolved murders he'll confess to.

[shill]

Originally posted by rashomon

IDIs don't like to discuss the fiber evidence, for obvious reasons because it implicates both Ramseys.
But the fiber evidence is pivotal in this case. It is hard evidence whose significance can't be stressed enough.
The fiber evidence is just as much the 'big bugaboo' in this case as the pineapple, if not even more so. Yes, the fiber evidence that is claimed to exist would implicate the Ramseys.
IDI's don't argue that point. They argue it's existence.
If it exists, it would implicate the Ramseys, so why hasn't it?

[rashomon]

Originally posted by docg
If the call had never been made, it would have been easy for them to both dump the body and get rid of the note, after making a copy to give the authorities.


Are you kidding? What do you think the police would have told the Ramseys: "WHAT??? You haven't kept the original note?? You gave us only a copy of the note?? WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE ORIGINAL NOTE? ARE YOU GOING TO TELL US THAT YOUR DOG ATE IT AFTER YOU MADE A COPY?"

I thought you were familiar with my theory, Wally. If they didn't call the police, they could have cancelled their travel plans and would have had a full 24 hours to dump the body and get rid of all evidence, including the note itself. No need to call them at 5:45 AM on the 26th or at any time that day. The note gave them the perfect excuse, in case their car had been spotted near where the body would ultimately be found: they were delivering the ransom. Which is, IMO, what John was planning to do on his own before an obviously innocent Patsy called the police and shredded his plan.

Docg, it was John who told Patsy to call the police.

If he had planned to do as you said, he could easily have taken charge and manipulated Patsy into not calling the police. All he needed was to tell her: "OMG, look what it says here: They are going to behead JonBenet if we call the police or anyone else. These guys are serious, Patsy. You know how cruel and merciless these terrorists are."

And believe me, Docg, if the Ramseys had tried to transport JB's body in their car, the lab techs and later the prosecution would have had a field day with the forensic examination of that car. Traces of grass and pollen (which is there also in the winter) would have told the lab techs where exactly they had driven around, not to mention tyre traces from their car next to where they put JB's body.
And chances are that JB's dead body would have left trace evidence in the car trunk too. Remember that killer who was convicted because three incriminating carpet fibers were found in his car?
One fiber found in their trunk of the clothes JB was wearing and this would have been the end of the ball game for the Ramseys.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by shill
Yes, the fiber evidence that is claimed to exist would implicate the Ramseys.
IDI's don't argue that point. They argue it's existence.
If it exists, it would implicate the Ramseys, so why hasn't it?

Because no one in authority will treat the Rs as if they were average people. They've been getting the velvet glove treatment from the very people who should be prosecuting them. Sharing info, my foot. That was ridiculous. The Ramseys have never been treated as any other person in their situation would have been. Hunter and his protege Lacy have done everything they can to avoid holding the Rs responsible for anything. The GJ was a joke. People have been asking for this case to given to a special prosecuter and petitioned the governor to do something, and nothing has happened yet.

It isn't for lack of trying, shill. People have tried, but there's only so far you can get with a compromised crime scene and corrupt officials, not to mention an aggressive defense team backed by a big fat bank account.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by rashomon


Are you kidding? What do you think the police would have told the Ramseys: "WHAT??? You haven't kept the original note?? You gave us only a copy of the note?? WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE ORIGINAL NOTE? ARE YOU GOING TO TELL US THAT YOUR DOG ATE IT AFTER YOU MADE A COPY?"



Docg, it was John who told Patsy to call the police.

If he had planned to do as you said, he could easily have taken charge and manipulated Patsy into not calling the police. All he needed was to tell her: "OMG, look what it says here: They are going to behead JonBenet if we call the police or anyone else. These guys are serious, Patsy. You know how cruel and merciless these terrorists are."

And believe me, Docg, if the Ramseys had tried to transport JB's body in their car, the lab techs and later the prosecution would have had a field day with the forensic examination of that car. Traces of grass and pollen (which is there also in the winter) would have told the lab techs where exactly they had driven around, not to mention tyre traces from their car next to where they put JB's body.
And chances are that JB's dead body would have left trace evidence in the car trunk too. Remember that killer who was convicted because three incriminating carpet fibers were found in his car?
One fiber found in their trunk of the clothes JB was wearing and this would have been the end of the ball game for the Ramseys.

I have to agree. If Patsy really thought that RN was real, John could have stopped her from calling 911 or any friends in a heartbeat by pointing out the threats. He let her call, and if you believe what the Rs say, he told her to call. They both had to know that RN was fake or neither one of them would called 911, or called their friends to come over, and they certainly would not have allowed Burke to go anywhere. They both knew that RN was fake.

And fibers from both of them were on JonBenet and in the crime scene. They were both involved, or you wouldn't see fiber evidence from both of them in those places.

Patsy said she was never in the basement in the jacket, and she said she was never near the paint tote in it, either. I can believe maybe the fibers ended up on the tape due to transfer, maybe, but not tied into the knot. In order for Patsy's fibers to be in that knot, and on the tape, and in the paint tray, she had to have been involved.

As for John, the only way I could see his fibers being found on JonBenet's genitals and in her brand new unwashed undies is if he was there, or if the shirt he had worn was the item used to wipe her down. But not Patsy. The only way her fibers would end up in those very incriminating palces is she was the one who constructed the garotte, tied the knot, and taped her dead child's mouth.

As for the car, the risk was WAY too great, for all of the reasons we've already discussed, including car fiber evidence on JonBenet or JonBenet's clothing fiber evidence in the car.

[docg]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


A fair point, you must admit. Wouldn't want to take a chance on getting paint on good clothes.



I think he's got you there doc. If fibers transfer that easily, then it should be no problem for them to jump from JR's shirt, to PR's jacket to JB when PR wiped her after she went potty. And I think it was you who mentioned they probably stood close together for photos at the party.

I do think the IDIs have one valid question concerning the shrit fibers - are these supposed to be the same dark fibers originally thought to be blue, and from a washcloth?

My reason for believing Patsy innocent has nothing to do with the fiber evidence. If guilty she would not have called 911 when she did. Period. Could Patsy have innocently transferred John's fibers to JonBenet's crotch when getting her ready for bed? Possibly. What do we know about whether or not she changed her panties before putting her to bed? I suspect not. While I suppose any fibers from anyone living in the house could have innocently gotten anywhere else in the house, it's still much harder to explain John's fibers being where they were than to explain Patsy's. Does that make his fibers a smoking gun? No. It's just one more piece of evidence pointing in his direction.

[WallyCleaver]

Originally posted by docg


My reason for believing Patsy innocent has nothing to do with the fiber evidence. If guilty she would not have called 911 when she did. Period. ...



That's part of your theory that is simply mistaken. You have JR allowing PR to call, which isn't so very different than calling on himself.

As for the timing of the call, it all depends what they were planning to do with the body. If they were going to leave it in the basement, I see no reaon why they wouldn't call when they did.

[Athena]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


He's proven himself to be a liar. He's changed his story and contradicted himself more than once. He's the type of man who will cheat on his wife and sneak around behind her back until he gets caught.

Here is some insight into JR that doesn't come from the RST:

http://www.supportramseytruth.com/index2.htm

Still at work - so just peeking in --- :seeya:

Insight by anonymous sources? :shrug:

[shill]

Originally posted by rashomon



One fiber found in their trunk of the clothes JB was wearing and this would have been the end of the ball game for the Ramseys. If had put her in the suitcase, he could ditch the suitcase somewhere else,
or return it to the basement in storage where no one would think of checking it for evidence, and if there were trace fibers in the suitcase, they would not be able to link it to the removal of her body.

[shill]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


Sharing info, my foot. That was ridiculous. The Ramseys have never been treated as any other person in their situation would have been. It's allright to share info about the alleged fibers from Johns shirt in JB's crotch area, but sharing any other info was a mistake?

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by rashomon

I think we should look for someone truly crazy. The Mad Hatter comes to mind, the one from Wonderland. He probably was mad at Patsy because she didn't order her hats from him, which is why he took revenge and then framed her. Mimicked her handwriting, wrote with her pen and paper and placed her fibers in the garrote. :seeya: But that Mad Hatter wasn't the brightest bulb in the chandlier....he made some errors in his murder....DNA, STUN GUN, SHOE PRINT, pubic hair, and beaver hair (he adorned his own hat with it) :)

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by rashomon

I think we should look for someone truly crazy. The Mad Hatter comes to mind, the one from Wonderland. He probably was mad at Patsy because she didn't order her hats from him, which is why he took revenge and then framed her. Mimicked her handwriting, wrote with her pen and paper and placed her fibers in the garrote. :seeya: WHAT FIBERS? Was it the ones that was supposedly consistent with PRs jacket or sweater, it can't be both? Was it the mysterious ones from JRs blue or black shirt? Nobody seems to know! I've already explained why, if I was an RDI, that more than likely it would have been fibers from Patsy's sweater/blouse, not the jacket....all I've ever heard was about the fibers supposedly from her jacket...we all know if she was up to her elbows in a murder and cover-up all night long, she would have removed her jacket, all that scurrying around would have made her sweat! :)

[rashomon]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
WHAT FIBERS? Was it the ones that was supposedly consistent with PRs jacket or sweater, it can't be both? Was it the mysterious ones from JRs blue or black shirt? Nobody seems to know! I've already explained why, if I was an RDI, that more than likely it would have been fibers from Patsy's sweater/blouse, not the jacket....all I've ever heard was about the fibers supposedly from her jacket...we all know if she was up to her elbows in a murder and cover-up all night long, she would have removed her jacket, all that scurrying around would have made her sweat! :)
The fibers were fom Patsy's jacket she had been wearing on that night to the Whites' party. So I this was not an outdoors jacket, but a jacket which obvioulsy was part of a dress combination.

[Athena]

Originally posted by rashomon

The fibers were fom Patsy's jacket she had been wearing on that night to the Whites' party. So I this was not an outdoors jacket, but a jacket which obvioulsy was part of a dress combination.

Let's not forget that the fibers reported initially found on the duct tape were brown - still trying to figure out how they went from brown to red. Still sounds like a fishing expedition to me by BPD. JMO

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Athena


Let's not forget that the fibers reported initially found on the duct tape were brown - still trying to figure out how they went from brown to red. Still sounds like a fishing expedition to me by BPD. JMO

Athena I just wanted to say hi...call me :chicken: but till some of the others get here I'd just rather say a nice friendly hi and glad you made it. Seems ridiculous to post back and forth to a forum of not to exceed 3 that I know of.

[rashomon]

Originally posted by Athena


Let's not forget that the fibers reported initially found on the duct tape were brown - still trying to figure out how they went from brown to red. Still sounds like a fishing expedition to me by BPD. JMO
Could you please quote the (official, I hope !) source which lists the fibers found on the duct tape as brown.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


Athena I just wanted to say hi...call me :chicken: but till some of the others get here I'd just rather say a nice friendly hi and glad you made it. Seems ridiculous to post back and forth to a forum of not to exceed 3 that I know of.

No need to be :chicken:

I do hope that nothing I post you take personal. None of my posts are meant to be against a poster that I respond to just the content of their post.

So a friendly hi right backatcha. :seeya:

[Athena]

Originally posted by rashomon

Could you please quote the (official, I hope !) source which lists the fibers found on the duct tape as brown.

Hi rashomon,

It was back in August that I posted/found links re: the brown fibers and one where JR was questioned about them in one of his interviews. I did a search but can't find it so don't know if everything since August was moved over?? If I come across it again will post it.

The brown fibers were believed to come from some kind of work or gardening gloves and JR and I believe Patsy as well were questioned about owning any.

Also the "cloth" that was used to wipe JBR down was also stated as being blue and his bathrobe which was blue did not match the blue fibers found. JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by rashomon

The fibers were fom Patsy's jacket she had been wearing on that night to the Whites' party. So I this was not an outdoors jacket, but a jacket which obvioulsy was part of a dress combination.

Consistent with is not necessarily an identical match. I wonder just how many articles of clothing they tested from other suspects? I've also wondered if any of the Pugh's wore some type of red sweater when they moved those paint tools down to the basement. Those paint tools had been down there since the Thanksgiving holiday when the Pughs moved them. No telling how long those fibers had been in there or where they came from. JMO

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Athena


Consistent with is not necessarily an identical match. I wonder just how many articles of clothing they tested from other suspects? I've also wondered if any of the Pugh's wore some type of red sweater when they moved those paint tools down to the basement. Those paint tools had been down there since the Thanksgiving holiday when the Pughs moved them. No telling how long those fibers had been in there or where they came from. JMO

Not unless the Pughs had outfits of the same fabric. Chemically cosistent with. Which usually means same fabric.

[shill]

Originally posted by Athena


Consistent with is not necessarily an identical match. I wonder just how many articles of clothing they tested from other suspects? I've also wondered if any of the Pugh's wore some type of red sweater when they moved those paint tools down to the basement. Those paint tools had been down there since the Thanksgiving holiday when the Pughs moved them. No telling how long those fibers had been in there or where they came from. JMO Was Patsy wearing the same jacket on Thanksgiving?

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by shill
Was Patsy wearing the same jacket on Thanksgiving?

I doubt it. It had not been drycleaned or laundered and appreared in a brand new not previously worn state. That is all I have ever read. Now of course my personal observation is this. Patsy would never wear a Christmas Colors theme outfit on Thanksgiving either.

[shill]

It wasn't a green and red jacket was it?

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by shill
It wasn't a green and red jacket was it?

Thanksgiving dictates the use of fall colors. Or the time honored black. I suppose one could wear red....with flecks of grey and black.....but fall colors are golds browns rusts you know harvest colors. Not saying what Patsy wore for sure.....Just know that every year I try to make a definitive statement between the two holidays. Call it my retribution for Merchants trying to force Christmas down our necks by Halloween.

[Athena]

Originally posted by shill
It wasn't a green and red jacket was it?

It was red, black and gray checked.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


Not unless the Pughs had outfits of the same fabric. Chemically cosistent with. Which usually means same fabric.

It is very possible that anyone who entered the Ramsey home had clothing of the same fabric. Fiber evidence is not like a fingerprint or DNA. They should have collected the clothing of the Pughs since they came in direct cotact with the paint tools.

Also Patsy had been down there earlier wrapping gifts and taking gifts out of the basement. The paint tray was in the basement outside of the wine cellar. Whose to say it couldn't have been secondary transfer?

The question that was asked of her is whether or not she had ever painted with that jacket on. The question was very specific and as a result could easily be explained away if she had the jacket on at any time entering the basement. JMO

[nuisanceposter]

Thomas said the lab's findings were that the fibers were microscopically and chemically consistent with those of Patsy's jacket.

I'm pretty sure Patsy had said she hadn't been down in the basement with the jacket on. Even if she went down there that day, that doesn't mean she had that jacket on while she was down there. I would imagine that Patsy wasn't wearing the clothes she wore to the White's until right before they left for the White's. I doubt she was all dressed up all day long in it while JR was at the airport and the kids had friends over.

[shill]

Patsy's jacket fibers were all over JB. The killer most likely carried JB at some point, transfering fibers to his body and gloved hands. He picked the brush out of the paint tote, broke the bristle end off and tossed it back in the paint tote.
IMO there is a high chance of the fibers transfering from this action.

[bullmoose]

Good point,NP, she wouldn't have been grubbing around downstairs in her good clothes; of course I have a problem with almost anything Twisting Thomas might have to say. His book, which I just ordered so as to not wear out the library copy is not at all convincing, when compared to some of the others I've read. I do not doubt his sincerety; but I do doubt his objectivity and his experience in murder cases---0, before the Ramsey case, does not give me confidence in his deductive powers. His leaking info, like a dripping faucet, to his tabloid reporter buddy makes me look at anything he says with a jaundiced eye.

[rashomon]

Originally posted by shill
Patsy's jacket fibers were all over JB. The killer most likely carried JB at some point, transfering fibers to his body and gloved hands. He picked the brush out of the paint tote, broke the bristle end off and tossed it back in the paint tote.
IMO there is a high chance of the fibers transfering from this action.

Patsy's jacket fibers were found on the sticky side of the duct tape, in the wrappings of the garrote and in the paint tray. Is that what you mean by the fibers being "all over JB?"

[shill]

Originally posted by rashomon


Patsy's jacket fibers were found on the sticky side of the duct tape, in the wrappings of the garrote and in the paint tray. Is that what you mean by the fibers being "all over JB?" No!

[rashomon]

Originally posted by shill
No!
Then would you elaborate please and name an official source which states that Patsy's jacket fibers were 'all over JonBenet'.

[shill]

Originally posted by rashomon

Then would you elaborate please and name an official source which states that Patsy's jacket fibers were 'all over JonBenet'. Are you serious? You need a link?
I've got better things to do then to dig up a link to amuse you. Get a clue!

[Athena]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
Thomas said the lab's findings were that the fibers were microscopically and chemically consistent with those of Patsy's jacket.

I'm pretty sure Patsy had said she hadn't been down in the basement with the jacket on. Even if she went down there that day, that doesn't mean she had that jacket on while she was down there. I would imagine that Patsy wasn't wearing the clothes she wore to the White's until right before they left for the White's. I doubt she was all dressed up all day long in it while JR was at the airport and the kids had friends over.

Thomas said quite a few things that he embellished and/or did not have first-hand knowledge of either. He also never mentions the fibers on the handle or the paint tray either even though he was specifically asked about other fibers linking Patsy to JBR.

Sorry but I just don't give Thomas much credibility in this case at all. His book and depo differ:

The only fiber evidence Thomas admitted to was 4 fibers that allegedly came from Patsy's jacket on the duct tape:

4 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Did the fibers

5 that were found on the duct tape that were

6 covering JonBenet's mouth that were, quote, a

7 likely match for Patsy's blazer, did that

8 become an important piece of forensic evidence

9 in the investigation?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Do you know when or at what point

12 in the case the CBI made that report?

13 A. I think it was sometime before we

14 were told -- I think that information may

15 have been held by Wickman and Trujillo and

16 Beckner possibly.

17 Q. Do you know if there was any

18 forensic evidence of Patsy Ramsey's clothing

19 at all besides the duct tape area on

20 JonBenet?

21 A. As we sit here now, no, I don't

22 recollect any other fiber evidence, other than

23 what we have discussed linking the mother to

24 JonBenet.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm

[shill]

Woman: (unintelligible) : messages on the Ramsey’s status as far as whether you think they’re excluded or not. You say no-one’s excluded, yet you treat them more like victims. In the public, you went to Patsy Ramsey’s funeral. What is their status?

Mary Lacy: You know, I would like to comment on attending the funeral. You have to understand that they were co-operating with us very well in those few weeks and helping us in everyway they can. You know when you spend two days with someone who’s dying, who’s racking a brain that is savaged by cancer and still doing her best to give you names, to help you, to do whatever you ask of her, I felt that personally, I needed to go to the funeral and acknowledge that she had done that in her last days. Uhm… I’m not a personal friend of the Ramseys. You know maybe people think that, but that’s not true. Uhm… we have very little contact. We had limited contact during this investigation. Frankly if I have something I need from them, I usually go through their attorney, their local attorney. And that person makes that request. They’ve never said no. You know, it’s a separate issue from John Karr, the Ramsey’s situation. We don’t have any umbrella of suspicion. We don’t have you know 2 or 4 or 6 people who we think might have.. You know right now , no, we don’t have a suspect that we’re looking at as someone who committed this crime. Tomorrow or the next day, could something develop that causes us to believe someone’s a suspect? Absolutely. But right now, given the status of the case, we presume the Ramseys’ innocent at this point, and we are going forward and investigating it the best we can. I don’t think that’s a mixed message. When you say you’re giving them the rights of victims, you know under the Victims Rights Act, they do have those rights, mandatory , statutory and constitutional rights. Uh, she was and he is the parent of the victim of a homicide and so as long as they are presumed innocent, we are going to accord them the respect of the parents of a victim.

[bullmoose]

Here we have a combination of Twisting Thomas and more vampire threads; undead evidence that exists only in the books of Bram Stoker, oops, I mean Steve Thomas. Didn't he get sued successfully by the Ramseys? I mean, he settled, right? It doesn't seem like the Ramseys are considered suspects at the moment, does it shill?

[rashomon]

Originally posted by shill
Are you serious? You need a link?
I've got better things to do then to dig up a link to amuse you. Get a clue!
Pretty lame cop-out on your part. :D

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by Athena


Thomas said quite a few things that he embellished and/or did not have first-hand knowledge of either. He also never mentions the fibers on the handle or the paint tray either even though he was specifically asked about other fibers linking Patsy to JBR.

Sorry but I just don't give Thomas much credibility in this case at all. His book and depo differ:

<snip>

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm

You think Thomas is a liar, I think the Rs are liars. You dwell on Thomas being inconsistent, what about the Rs being inconsistent? They have a lot more to answer for and potentially cover up for than Thomas does, and a lot more reason to lie. How can you overlook or excuse their consistently inconsistent versions of events?

And whether Thomas was consistent or not doesn't change the fact that Patsy said she was never downstairs or near her paint tray in that jacket.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by rashomon

Pretty lame cop-out on your part. :D

It really is, shill, especially when you've asked people for links in the same manner before.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by bullmoose
Here we have a combination of Twisting Thomas and more vampire threads; undead evidence that exists only in the books of Bram Stoker, oops, I mean Steve Thomas. Didn't he get sued successfully by the Ramseys? I mean, he settled, right? It doesn't seem like the Ramseys are considered suspects at the moment, does it shill?

Yes, the Rs sued him, but they offered him a settlement. They didn't need to, but they chose to. The terms of the settlement are entirely in Thomas's favor. Really makes me wonder why they even bothered to sue him in the first place.

http://www.supportramseytruth.com/index2.htm


The Lawsuits

From: www.supportramsey.com

Beginning in 1999, the Ramsey family filed a number of slander and defamation suits in federal court, both in New York and Atlanta, against the most egregious of the media including The Globe, Star Magazine, TIME, New York Post, Court TV, and Steve Thomas/St. Martin Publishers, all of which have been settled in the family’s favor. A suit filed in December 2002 against Fox News for slander with malice remains outstanding and the family fully expects to prevail.


While it is true that all of the cases mentioned above ended in a settlement in the Ramsey family’s favor, an important part of the story has been omitted.

With the exception of the Steve Thomas/St. Martin Publishers suit, all of the lawsuits filed by the Ramseys were in the name of Burke Ramsey, JonBenet’s brother, who was nine at the time of her death.

In a sworn affidavit written October 12, 2000, then Boulder D.A. Alex Hunter stated that as of the time of the affidavit, Burke Ramsey was not a suspect.

<snip>

On an appearance on Larry King Live with Steve Thomas, John Ramsey (April 28th 2001) said he was going to sue Thomas for calling his wife a murderer.

The lawsuit was filed and later settled in the Ramseys’ favor.

However, as with other statements the Ramseys or their attorneys have made publicly, there is really more to the story.

In a letter released to the public, former Detective Steve Thomas said the following:

- He was not the one who sought the settlement.
- He did not admit to any wrongdoing.
- He did not personally pay one single penny to the Ramseys.
- The book can continue to be published as is with no corrections.
- He can continue to speak on the case if he so wishes.

To read the full letter please go here.

The owner of www.supportramseytruth.com is also the owner of http://www.forstevethomas.com.

Questions and Answers regarding the Steve Thomas case:

What has changed since the Larry King Live show on April 28th 2001?

Q: Can Steve Thomas still speak about the case?
A: Yes, Steve can still speak about the case.

Q: Can the book that claims, in the "author’s opinion," that Patsy Ramsey is a murderer still be sold in bookstores?
A: Yes, the book can still be sold.

Q: Did Steve Thomas have to admit any wrongdoing?
A: Steve Thomas has never admitted to any wrongdoing.

Q: Did Steve Thomas have to pay any money to the Ramseys?
A: Steve Thomas did not pay any money to the Ramseys.

The only thing that has changed is that the Ramseys and their attorney Lin Wood lined their pockets with money, but not money from Steve Thomas. The Ramseys did not need to settle but they did.

In fact, the Ramseys claimed it was not about the money, and, during a face-to-face confrontation with Steve Thomas on Larry King Live, John Ramsey vehemently declared that Steve would be spending “a lot of quality time with….Team Ramsey,” apparently referring to time spent in court defending himself against this lawsuit.

“KING: Are you suing Steve?

J. RAMSEY: Yes, you can count on that, Steve. You'll spend a lot of quality time with what you'd call "Team Ramsey."

THOMAS: We'll see you, John..”

Not only did Steve not spend any time with “Team Ramsey,” the Ramseys settled out of court and the person with whom they were so angry paid no money to them and has never admitted wrongdoing, either before or after the lawsuit. It would appear that the Ramseys received money from the publisher but not the vindication they claimed they were after.

[bullmoose]

Yes, Twisting Thomas didn't personally pay one penny, his publisher did, whoa, big difference. Is his book still being published? If no printing of it is still occurring, then that clause is moot, at best. Steve Thomas can go on speaking on the case if he wants; again, so what? Who is he speaking to about the case, other than such high quality publishers like the Globe? He doesn't admit to any wrongdoing; people reading his book can make their own decision on whether he is truthful, an out and out liar; or just Twisting Thomas. You can probably guess what conclusion I came to. Vindication will never come for the Ramseys, in court or out, unless the real killer/s emerge. People are going to believe what they already believe about the case. I for one, do not believe that Steve Thomas has any more idea of who did it than I do.

[shill]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


It really is, shill, especially when you've asked people for links in the same manner before.
A) I don't have any links of any kind because the computor I was online with is trash. The hard drive stopped functioning and I have lost everything. I haven't even been able to get the computor fired up with a replacement hard drive. I'm back to ground zero with another computer.
B) I've asked for links of the people who demanded them from me first.
C) You don't need a link, unless you're mentally challenged. Grow a brain!

[Athena]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


Yes, the Rs sued him, but they offered him a settlement. They didn't need to, but they chose to. The terms of the settlement are entirely in Thomas's favor. Really makes me wonder why they even bothered to sue him in the first place.

http://www.supportramseytruth.com/index2.htm


The Lawsuits

From: www.supportramsey.com

Beginning in 1999, the Ramsey family filed a number of slander and defamation suits in federal court, both in New York and Atlanta, against the most egregious of the media including The Globe, Star Magazine, TIME, New York Post, Court TV, and Steve Thomas/St. Martin Publishers, all of which have been settled in the family’s favor. A suit filed in December 2002 against Fox News for slander with malice remains outstanding and the family fully expects to prevail.


While it is true that all of the cases mentioned above ended in a settlement in the Ramsey family’s favor, an important part of the story has been omitted.

With the exception of the Steve Thomas/St. Martin Publishers suit, all of the lawsuits filed by the Ramseys were in the name of Burke Ramsey, JonBenet’s brother, who was nine at the time of her death.

In a sworn affidavit written October 12, 2000, then Boulder D.A. Alex Hunter stated that as of the time of the affidavit, Burke Ramsey was not a suspect.

<snip>

On an appearance on Larry King Live with Steve Thomas, John Ramsey (April 28th 2001) said he was going to sue Thomas for calling his wife a murderer.

The lawsuit was filed and later settled in the Ramseys’ favor.

However, as with other statements the Ramseys or their attorneys have made publicly, there is really more to the story.

In a letter released to the public, former Detective Steve Thomas said the following:

- He was not the one who sought the settlement.
- He did not admit to any wrongdoing.
- He did not personally pay one single penny to the Ramseys.
- The book can continue to be published as is with no corrections.
- He can continue to speak on the case if he so wishes.

To read the full letter please go here.

The owner of www.supportramseytruth.com is also the owner of http://www.forstevethomas.com.

Questions and Answers regarding the Steve Thomas case:

What has changed since the Larry King Live show on April 28th 2001?

Q: Can Steve Thomas still speak about the case?
A: Yes, Steve can still speak about the case.

Q: Can the book that claims, in the "author’s opinion," that Patsy Ramsey is a murderer still be sold in bookstores?
A: Yes, the book can still be sold.

Q: Did Steve Thomas have to admit any wrongdoing?
A: Steve Thomas has never admitted to any wrongdoing.

Q: Did Steve Thomas have to pay any money to the Ramseys?
A: Steve Thomas did not pay any money to the Ramseys.

The only thing that has changed is that the Ramseys and their attorney Lin Wood lined their pockets with money, but not money from Steve Thomas. The Ramseys did not need to settle but they did.

In fact, the Ramseys claimed it was not about the money, and, during a face-to-face confrontation with Steve Thomas on Larry King Live, John Ramsey vehemently declared that Steve would be spending “a lot of quality time with….Team Ramsey,” apparently referring to time spent in court defending himself against this lawsuit.

“KING: Are you suing Steve?

J. RAMSEY: Yes, you can count on that, Steve. You'll spend a lot of quality time with what you'd call "Team Ramsey."

THOMAS: We'll see you, John..”

Not only did Steve not spend any time with “Team Ramsey,” the Ramseys settled out of court and the person with whom they were so angry paid no money to them and has never admitted wrongdoing, either before or after the lawsuit. It would appear that the Ramseys received money from the publisher but not the vindication they claimed they were after.

Keywords: The settlement was in the RAMSEY's favor. Of course Thomas did not pay any money out -- the publishing company did. Thomas' letter is just more spin.

He also wrote a letter stating that he resigned due to the JBR case when in fact he resigned due to an illness of which a medical disability was denied because it was not related to his work. Twisting Thomas spin -- again. JMO

[nuisanceposter]

How was that settlement in the R's favor? They sued him for slander with malice, and then gave him a settlement that allowed him to continue as he had been. It's not his fault he couldn't afford to keep up the lawsuit and accepted the offered settlement.

The Rs didn't have to offer Thomas a settlement, and they did, and they did so in such a manner that Thomas didn't have to change anything he was doing. He did not have to acknowledge doing anything wrong - the Ramseys accepted that and acknowledged it with this settlement.

Steve Thomas did more to give JonBenet justice than her own parents did. they focused on themselves, and he ran himself ragged trying to solve this case and honor her with the justice she deserves - while the Rs hired attys to keep them out of jail and not search for this killer. Thomas's book is still available for sale, and it's still written as it was when first published. He was speaking about this case just a few months ago, on television, during the KarrWreck scandal. He also speaks at functions, and works with Marc Klaas.

Once again, Athena, and I mean no disrespect to you...but how can you sit here and slam Thomas for anything he says and completely overlook all of the inconsistent and flat-out untrue statements coming from the Ramseys? What about their unending spin?

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
How was that settlement in the R's favor? They sued him for slander with malice, and then gave him a settlement that allowed him to continue as he had been. It's not his fault he couldn't afford to keep up the lawsuit and accepted the offered settlement.

The Rs didn't have to offer Thomas a settlement, and they did, and they did so in such a manner that Thomas didn't have to change anything he was doing. He did not have to acknowledge doing anything wrong - the Ramseys accepted that and acknowledged it with this settlement.

Steve Thomas did more to give JonBenet justice than her own parents did. they focused on themselves, and he ran himself ragged trying to solve this case and honor her with the justice she deserves - while the Rs hired attys to keep them out of jail and not search for this killer. Thomas's book is still available for sale, and it's still written as it was when first published. He was speaking about this case just a few months ago, on television, during the KarrWreck scandal. He also speaks at functions, and works with Marc Klaas.

Once again, Athena, and I mean no disrespect to you...but how can you sit here and slam Thomas for anything he says and completely overlook all of the inconsistent and flat-out untrue statements coming from the Ramseys? What about their unending spin?

I am standing ..... and clapping my hands. That is the TRUTH as Colorado knows it and witnessed it to be.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by bullmoose
Good point,NP, she wouldn't have been grubbing around downstairs in her good clothes; of course I have a problem with almost anything Twisting Thomas might have to say. His book, which I just ordered so as to not wear out the library copy is not at all convincing, when compared to some of the others I've read. I do not doubt his sincerety; but I do doubt his objectivity and his experience in murder cases---0, before the Ramsey case, does not give me confidence in his deductive powers. His leaking info, like a dripping faucet, to his tabloid reporter buddy makes me look at anything he says with a jaundiced eye.

You refer to Shapiro. Who also had an open door at the DA's office. Not just shared a beer with Thomas. Please remember there was some obvious naivety in LE. You can find that in a lot of towns and cities. However it was not the law enforcement that killed JonBent. Thomas busted his rear and ruined his health trying to bring this case to an arrest. In my opinion for what its worth. He never changed the facts in this case.

[shill]

Originally posted by rashomon

Then would you elaborate please and name an official source which states that Patsy's jacket fibers were 'all over JonBenet'. Have you figured out how dumb this request is yet? being you're an RDI.

[bullmoose]

Naivety? In a town with what, 100,000 people? Ck, I live in a town of less than 1000, what Twisting Thomas was doing during the investigation, leaking info to the Globe, which had already printed Jonbenet's autopsy pictures, showing what a shameless, sleazy rag that it was and is, was nothing less than shameful. How can you say he was naive? If a cop in Wallace, Idaho did what he did, he would be fired, for interfering in an investigation and probably run out of town. In CoeurD'Alene, his behavior would not be tolerated; it doesn't matter, his behavior was wrong, petulant, narcissistic by leaking false information to try to convict the Ramseys in the court of public opinion. The fact that Shapiro was talking to Hunter isn't the issue here, Hunter didn't resign in a theatrical manner, Hunter has not written a tell-all book to expose everybody like Steve Thomas did. I too read his book and read how a medical condition arose for him while he was still a cop, so what? That to me is just a ploy to try gain sympathy.I will agree with your statement that he never changed any facts in this case; how could he? facts are facts. But I do not think that a lot of his claims are factual. When I read his book I thought that a lot of his claims and justifications for his actions were self-serving and untrue. CK, you may admire Steve Thomas, but I do not.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by bullmoose
[B]
<snip>

I too read his book and read how a medical condition arose for him while he was still a cop, so what? That to me is just a ploy to try gain sympathy.
<snip>

B]

He had a thyroid condition. Very treatable.

[Zoey]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


He had a thyroid condition. Very treatable.

Agree.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


<snip>
Thomas busted his rear and ruined his health trying to bring this case to an arrest. In my opinion for what its worth. He never changed the facts in this case.

So he'd like you to believe. Thomas' health problems had NOTHING to do with JBR. He even applied for medical disability/leave and was denied because it was NOT work related. In his resignation letter he mentions the letter re: leave of absence but never states why he sought a leave. More spin to make it appear that his leave had something to do with JBR's case and apparently some people believed his spin. JMO

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by Athena


So he'd like you to believe. Thomas' health problems had NOTHING to do with JBR. He even applied for medical disability/leave and was denied because it was NOT work related. In his resignation letter he mentions the letter re: leave of absence but never states why he sought a leave. More spin to make it appear that his leave had something to do with JBR's case and apparently some people believed his spin. JMO

You do his schedule for the length of time he did.....See what you got left. Just because they denied him does not mean its so. My husband has Palendromic Rheumatoid Arthritis and confirmed Post Polio. Palendromic meaning it is not limited to small joints. Or hands.... He has had 2 joint replacements due the infection of the RA. He also has had 2 strokes. Yet he was denied.. According to them he's not disabled enough yet..... See what you get to look forward to as you get moderately advanced .......OY!!

[shill]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


You do his schedule for the length of time he did.....See what you got left. Just because they denied him does not mean its so. My husband has Palendromic Rheumatoid Arthritis and confirmed Post Polio. Palendromic meaning it is not limited to small joints. Or hands.... He has had 2 joint replacements due the infection of the RA. He also has had 2 strokes. Yet he was denied.. According to them he's not disabled enough yet..... See what you get to look forward to as you get moderately advanced .......OY!! Maybe you shouldn't be taking him hiking in the mountains then.

[rashomon]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


He had a thyroid condition. Very treatable.
ST's thyroid disease was not as easily treatable. for it was an autoimmune disease where thyroid tissue is attacked and finally destroyed by the body's own immune system. It is absolutely health-wrecking.

[rashomon]

Originally posted by rashomon

ST's thyroid disease was not as easily treatable. For it was an autoimmune disease where thyroid tissue is attacked and finally destroyed by the body's own immune system. It is absolutely health-wrecking.

[rashomon]

Originally posted by shill
Have you figured out how dumb this request is yet? being you're an RDI.
Don't draw conclusions from yourself to other people. For me, being an RDI dosn't mean I intend to shut my eyes to any evidence.
Therefore it is not a dumb request, but your not answering it is dumb, being you're an IDI.

It was you who brought it up, so again: where is the official source which states that Patsy's fibers were "all over Jon Benet?"

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by rashomon

ST's thyroid disease was not as easily treatable. for it was an autoimmune disease where thyroid tissue is attacked and finally destroyed by the body's own immune system. It is absolutely health-wrecking.

Page 490 - PMPT

"He learned that his body was producing antibodies that were attacking the thyroid.* He would have to take a thyroid-replacement medicine for the rest of his life."

"*The thyroid gland, situated in the neck, regulatles the body's metabolic rate. Thyroid tissue is made up of millions of tiny saclike follicles that store thyroid hormone in the form of thyroglobulin, a protein containing iodine. When secreted into the bloodstream, thyrogloboulin is converted to thyroxine and small amounts of other similar hormones. Sufficient dietary iodine and stimulation by the pituitary gland are necessary for proper thyroxine production. Metabolic disorders result from oversecretion or undersecretion by the thyroid gland."

Easily treatable. I pop a synthoid tablet every morning.


JMO

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte

<snip>

Easily treatable. I pop a synthoid tablet every morning.


JMO

Let me remind of the constant IDI refrain - you don't know how you would respond in the same situation until you're in it. You've never dealt with a thyroid condition in addition to being the main detective on an internationally infamous child murder case. That might have factored into his health, don't you think?

Just because you can deal with something easily doesn't mean someone else will as well. Maybe there's more to the situation than you're taking into account.

Not every word of PMPT is totally accurate and undisputable, and you know that. Maybe there's more to Thomas's condition than Schiller was privy to. Did he interview Thomas's doctor? Did he read through Thomas's medical records?

[sweetcharlotte]

I know enough to know that we all have stressors in our lives and your well-being can be impacted by how well you manage these stressors.

Thomas - IMO - was looking for "sympathy."

JMO

[nuisanceposter]

Exactly. Stress affects health. I'm willing to bet Thomas was under more stress than his health could tolerate. He made the right decision to lay down the badge and take up a job that suited him better, and he need not feel any shame about it. There's nothing wrong with deciding you can't take immoral people and the way they conduct themselves anymore and moving on to more honest work. Thomas can sleep comfy at night with a clear conscious - he did all he could for JonBenet, more than anyone else has done for her to this day...including her own parents.

IMO, if Thomas was looking for sympathy (and we don't know that he was), he deserved a bit. He worked as hard as any detective ever has to solve a child murder case, and it's hardly any wonder that his health would suffer under the stress of it all. I have to admire and respect a man who devoted himself so much to a child he had never met and wasn't even remotely related to (even if I don't completely agree with his theory.)

John and Patsy Ramsey themselves said that they believed Thomas was dedicated to JonBenet and was doing all he could to give her justice...they just thought he had the wrong guy.

[rashomon]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


Let me remind of the constant IDI refrain - you don't know how you would respond in the same situation until you're in it. You've never dealt with a thyroid condition in addition to being the main detective on an internationally infamous child murder case. That might have factored into his health, don't you think?

Just because you can deal with something easily doesn't mean someone else will as well. Maybe there's more to the situation than you're taking into account.

Not every word of PMPT is totally accurate and undisputable, and you know that. Maybe there's more to Thomas's condition than Schiller was privy to. Did he interview Thomas's doctor? Did he read through Thomas's medical records?
Very well said, NP.

Sweetcharlotte: thyroid hormones don't always help with the type of disease ST had. My sister has the same type of illness, and so far no treatment has been of help for her. Her whole thyroid will probably have to be removed.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

<snip>

Thomas can sleep comfy at night with a clear conscious - he did all he could for JonBenet
<snip>




:) And then there are those of us who think his tunnel vision may have hampered the investigation........ JMO

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


:) And then there are those of us who think his tunnel vision may have hampered the investigation........ JMO

And some of us have tunnel vision as to how much investigation Thomas really did in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. He wasn't spending all that time chasing down the Rs alone, SC.

He interviewed 590 people, consulted 64 outside experts, investigated and cleared more than 100 possible suspects, collected 1,058 pieces of evidence, tested over 500 items at federal, state, and private laboratories, gathered handwriting and nontestimonial evidence from 215 people, built a case that exceeded 30,000 pages, reviewed more than 3,400 letters and 700 telephone tips, and contacted 17 states and 2 foreign countries.

It isn't his fault the evidence kept indicating Ramsey involvement.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by rashomon

Very well said, NP.

Sweetcharlotte: thyroid hormones don't always help with the type of disease ST had. My sister has the same type of illness, and so far no treatment has been of help for her. Her whole thyroid will probably have to be removed.

What was ST's diagnosis? He looks fine to me when I see him on tv and if he is a carpenter he must have physical stamina. JMO

Sorry about your sister. There are a lot of different kinds of thyroid conditions - most treatable with meds and/or surgery followed by meds.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


And some of us have tunnel vision as to how much investigation Thomas really did in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. He wasn't spending all that time chasing down the Rs alone, SC.

He interviewed 590 people, consulted 64 outside experts, investigated and cleared more than 100 possible suspects, collected 1,058 pieces of evidence, tested over 500 items at federal, state, and private laboratories, gathered handwriting and nontestimonial evidence from 215 people, built a case that exceeded 30,000 pages, reviewed more than 3,400 letters and 700 telephone tips, and contacted 17 states and 2 foreign countries.

It isn't his fault the evidence kept indicating Ramsey involvement.

And this all according to Steve, right?

[rashomon]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


And this all according to Steve, right?
SC: Steve wrote this in a published book, and you can bet that should he have put in false info there, every single bit of it would have been exposed.
But did for example the CBI lab come forward and say "oh no, ST lied, no fibers consistent with Patsy's sweater were ever found on the duct tape!"
No they didn't, and therefore you can assume that the info ST gave was correct.
Since the factual info ST mentions is listed in the documented record, there is no reason to disbelieve him.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by rashomon


<snip>

Since the factual info ST mentions is listed in the documented record, there is no reason to disbelieve him.

Strange that so many people do and post information to support why they don't believe him. JMO

[A_seeker]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


And some of us have tunnel vision as to how much investigation Thomas really did in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. He wasn't spending all that time chasing down the Rs alone, SC.

He interviewed 590 people, consulted 64 outside experts, investigated and cleared more than 100 possible suspects, collected 1,058 pieces of evidence, tested over 500 items at federal, state, and private laboratories, gathered handwriting and nontestimonial evidence from 215 people, built a case that exceeded 30,000 pages, reviewed more than 3,400 letters and 700 telephone tips, and contacted 17 states and 2 foreign countries.

It isn't his fault the evidence kept indicating Ramsey involvement.

Very well put!

[rashomon]

Sweetcharlotte: my sister has 'Hashimoto's Thyroiditis', an autoimmune disease. ST had an autoimmune thyroid disease too, and the symptoms he mentioned in his book were very much like my sister's. But I don't know if there also exist other thyroid autoimmune diseases aside from H.T.
Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Strange that so many people do and post information to support why they don't believe him. JMO

What info? They posted part of his depo, which is a good thing, for one can study how it is they who are twisting ST's words.
What I miss in these posters' approach: they attack ST's book, but not once have they been able to refute anything he wrote.
I always goes like that: "I have read ST's book and his book is trash." But this is a mere opinion.
They say it is trash because they don't like what ST has to say. Simple as that.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by rashomon
Sweetcharlotte: my sister has 'Hashimoto's Thyroiditis', an autoimmune disease. ST had an autoimmune thyroid disease too, and the symptoms he mentioned in his book were very much like my sister's. But I don't know if there also exist other thyroid autoimmune diseases aside from H.T.


What info? They posted part of his depo, which is a good thing, for one can study how it is they who are twisting ST's words.
What I miss in these posters' approach: they attack ST's book, but not once have they been able to refute anything he wrote.
I always goes like that: "I have read ST's book and his book is trash." But this is a mere opinion.
They say it is trash because they don't like what ST has to say. Simple as that.

Again, I hope for the best for your sister.

Re: Steve Thomas - I think a couple of posters here have posted extensively on the discrepancies in his book/deposition. We could talk about him all day and it's not going to change how you or I feel about him. So - truce? JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by rashomon

SC: Steve wrote this in a published book, and you can bet that should he have put in false info there, every single bit of it would have been exposed.
But did for example the CBI lab come forward and say "oh no, ST lied, no fibers consistent with Patsy's sweater were ever found on the duct tape!"
No they didn't, and therefore you can assume that the info ST gave was correct.
Since the factual info ST mentions is listed in the documented record, there is no reason to disbelieve him.

First just let me say that hopefully science will be able uncover a medication to treat your sister's thyroid disease successfully. Don't lose hope! :rose:

I haven't seen any comments by CBI either way so that is a misleading statement.

The one thing I will say positive about Thomas is that I do believe his intentions were good. However, he got caught up in his theory and tried to make the evidence fit his theory which good investigators just do not do. He lost all objectivity in this case.

Many of his statements were disproven which is why he fought so hard to keep his depo from being released to the public.

As sweet says we can talk about Thomas forever and we will never agree so I will agree to disagree. :) JMO

[shill]

If an intruder enters a house looking for a six year old, it is highly likely there is someone else home at the time.
If intruders waited until nobody but the child was home, you would just have to make sure you never left your child home alone, unless he's Macaullay Culkin.

Just because you're in the house, it doesn't make you guilty, unless maybe it's a one room house.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by shill
If an intruder enters a house looking for a six year old, it is highly likely there is someone else home at the time.
If intruders waited until nobody but the child was home, you would just have to make sure you never left your child home alone, unless he's Macaullay Culkin.

Just because you're in the house, it doesn't make you guilty, unless maybe it's a one room house.

If an intruder enters a house looking for a six year old, most likely he would not take the time to do all of the things that were done knowing that 3 other people were in that same house and could have woken up at any minute. He would have knocked the kid out and taken her.
Of course "just because you are in the house doesn't make you guilty" but it doesn't make you innocent either.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by shill
Maybe you shouldn't be taking him hiking in the mountains then.

Thank you anyway he is no longer able to Hike. Did you read the post polio part. If you knew anything at all you'd know that. We go to the mountains every chance we get. Hiking isn't possible.....
does not mean we still don't enjoy the mountains. Just because someone has problems does not make them unable to enjoy life at all.

[Coloradokares]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bullmoose
Naivety? In a town with what, 100,000 people? Ck, I live in a town of less than 1000, what Twisting Thomas was doing during the investigation, leaking info to the Globe, which had already printed Jonbenet's autopsy pictures, showing what a shameless, sleazy rag that it was and is, was nothing less than shameful. How can you say he was naive? If a cop in Wallace, Idaho did what he did, he would be fired, for interfering in an investigation and probably run out of town. In CoeurD'Alene, his behavior would not be tolerated; it doesn't matter, his behavior was wrong, petulant, narcissistic by leaking false information to try to convict the Ramseys in the court of public opinion. The fact that Shapiro was talking to Hunter isn't the issue here, Hunter didn't resign in a theatrical manner, Hunter has not written a tell-all book to expose everybody like Steve Thomas did. I too read his book and read how a medical condition arose for him while he was still a cop, so what? That to me is just a ploy to try gain sympathy.I will agree with your statement that he never changed any facts in this case; how could he? facts are facts. But I do not think that a lot of his claims are factual. When I read his book I thought that a lot of his claims and justifications for his actions were self-serving and untrue. CK, you may admire Steve Thomas, but I do not. [/QUOTE

That is totally your right....But the case didn't go south cause of Steve Thomas. It went south for two reasons mainly. The crime scene was not kept ......and The DA would not prosecute and he should have. And as for Shapiro he'll dance with who ever is providing the music...

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


He had a thyroid condition. Very treatable.

I just buried a friend not even a month ago...from complications of a thyroid condition that depleted the potassium caused irregular beating of the heart. She died. I mean unless your a doctor thats kind of bold statement regarding treatabliliy of disease processes.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by Coloradokares
[

<snip>
The DA would not prosecute and he should have
<snip>



Who should he have prosecuted?

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


I just buried a friend not even a month ago...from complications of a thyroid condition that depleted the potassium caused irregular beating of the heart. She died. I mean unless your a doctor thats kind of bold statement regarding treatabliliy of disease processes.

I am sorry about your friend. Was she under a doctor's care?

I have hypothyroidism. It is very treatable. I "ass-umed" that is what Steve Thomas has from what I have read.


JMO

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Who should he have prosecuted?

CK - still waiting for an answer on this........

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


I am sorry about your friend. Was she under a doctor's care?

I have hypothyroidism. It is very treatable. I "ass-umed" that is what Steve Thomas has from what I have read.


JMO

Just curious, CK. Have you found anything on the type of thyroid problems Steve has?

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter


And some of us have tunnel vision as to how much investigation Thomas really did in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. He wasn't spending all that time chasing down the Rs alone, SC.

He interviewed 590 people, consulted 64 outside experts, investigated and cleared more than 100 possible suspects, collected 1,058 pieces of evidence, tested over 500 items at federal, state, and private laboratories, gathered handwriting and nontestimonial evidence from 215 people, built a case that exceeded 30,000 pages, reviewed more than 3,400 letters and 700 telephone tips, and contacted 17 states and 2 foreign countries.

It isn't his fault the evidence kept indicating Ramsey involvement.

I went back and read this again. You don't really think he did all of this on his own, do you? lol

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


I am sorry about your friend. Was she under a doctor's care?

I have hypothyroidism. It is very treatable. I "ass-umed" that is what Steve Thomas has from what I have read.


JMO

Yes she was and in fact had seen her physcian the day she died and the blood test showing the depleted potassium was taken in the am she did by late afternoon.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Who should he have prosecuted?

The party that killed JonBenet. And any accomplice.

[LindaA]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


The party that killed JonBenet. And any accomplice.

Obviously. I think Sweet wanted to know who that would be... her point being that there isn't enough evidence to cponvict anyone. IMO.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by LindaA


Obviously. I think Sweet wanted to know who that would be... her point being that there isn't enough evidence to cponvict anyone. IMO.

ROFL....obviously, there wasn't enough evidence to even indict anyone!

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Just curious, CK. Have you found anything on the type of thyroid problems Steve has?

One of the other posters seemed to have more knowledge of it than I did. I never pursued to find out exactly what it was with Thomas I took it at face value since he lost a lot of weight and had dramatic health issues it was more on the semi serious side.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by LindaA


Obviously. I think Sweet wanted to know who that would be... her point being that there isn't enough evidence to cponvict anyone. IMO.

I know and I was being intentionally evasive and I admit that. While I respect each individuals right to form their own opinion based on what they believe to be the merits of the case. I know who I would think did it of course. But everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of their peers or is proved after confession to be guilty. Not all who confess to this crime have been the perpetrator of it. I would leave that up to prosecutorial branch of law. I believe there is more than adequate evidence to get a conviction. That is my own humble belief. I am not sure it would stick on murder one. I have stated also in the past why I felt it was not prosecuted by design of our DA at the time.....

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


One of the other posters seemed to have more knowledge of it than I did. I never pursued to find out exactly what it was with Thomas I took it at face value since he lost a lot of weight and had dramatic health issues it was more on the semi serious side.

Roshamon mentioned the type of disease his sister has, but I don't think even he knows what Thomas was diagnosed with.

To my knowledge no one has been able to say exactly what thyroid condition he had so I'll stick with what I read in PM/PT which implied that he had hypothyroidism - which is not an uncommon ailment.

JMO

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


<snip>
I believe there is more than adequate evidence to get a conviction. That is my own humble belief. I am not sure it would stick on murder one. I have stated also in the past why I felt it was not prosecuted by design of our DA at the time.....

What evidence to get a conviction if there wasn't enough presented to get an indictment? What do you mean DA didn't prosecute by design? If the GJ didn't find enough evidence to indict could the DA go forward?

[nuisanceposter]

Still maligning Thomas, SC? Let it go. It was his health or his job, and he chose his health. He made the right choice.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
Still maligning Thomas, SC? Let it go. It was his health or his job, and he chose his health. He made the right choice.

Ok - but just keep in mind he could not get benefits because his condition was not work related.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


What evidence to get a conviction if there wasn't enough presented to get an indictment? What do you mean DA didn't prosecute by design? If the GJ didn't find enough evidence to indict could the DA go forward?

You are entitled to your opinion. However I respectfully disagree. You totally discount the political influences that were at play out here and the DA statement he wanted a airtight case. There is no way to understand the Boulder factor if you choose not to take as truth the description of the politics and how things worked out here. But I will give you its your right to not acknowledge what you don't believe in. It is one of the basic difference between those who are IDI and RDI. I understand the Boulder factors because I am local. I know what the DA was saying out here. Its just that simple. Boulder is not typical. In Denver this case would have been prosecuted without need for a grand jury. You can take that to the bank.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Ok - but just keep in mind he could not get benefits because his condition was not work related.

That is hair splitting when he couldn't live up to the demands placed upon him and required of him to perform his job cause his health could not withstand the grueling hours. Was his thyroid problem created from the rigors of his job. I do not know I am not a doctor. However what we can say is its reasonable to assume his condition was greatly exacerbated by the Ramsey murder investigations. This was not a 9-5 what a way to make a living .....

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


That is hair splitting when he couldn't live up to the demands placed upon him and required of him to perform his job cause his health could not withstand the grueling hours. Was his thyroid problem created from the rigors of his job. I do not know I am not a doctor. However what we can say is its reasonable to assume his condition was greatly exacerbated by the Ramsey murder investigations. This was not a 9-5 what a way to make a living .....

We, I wasn't the one who split the hairs - that woud be BPD.
What point are we making here?

I worked in an organization that downsized over 10K people. Some with only a very short time before they were eligible for retirement. Kicked to the curb with very little to show for long term service - some suicides. Life is tough.

Obviously, Steve was predisposed to not functioning well under pressure perhaps in part due to lack of experience.

JMO

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


We, I wasn't the one who split the hairs - that woud be BPD.
What point are we making here?

I worked in an organization that downsized over 10K people. Some with only a very short time before they were eligible for retirement. Kicked to the curb with very little to show for long term service - some suicides. Life is tough.

Obviously, Steve was predisposed to not functioning well under pressure perhaps in part due to lack of experience.

JMO

I see nothing at all obvious in lack of experience as a contributing factor. It was a stressful case. No doubt. Worse than a pressure cooker by all accounts and not just Steve Thomas' You are the one who wants the distinction noted he was not rated for his loss regarding his income and ability to continue in his postion. But its subjective to feel it the decision rendered was biased or fair. Its a moot point in the discussion regarding the facts of the murder. The murder took place before his health issues or disability from it.

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


I see nothing at all obvious in lack of experience as a contributing factor. It was a stressful case. No doubt. Worse than a pressure cooker by all accounts and not just Steve Thomas' You are the one who wants the distinction noted he was not rated for his loss regarding his income and ability to continue in his postion. But its subjective to feel it the decision rendered was biased or fair. Its a moot point in the discussion regarding the facts of the murder. The murder took place before his health issues or disability from it.

Ever heard the expression "being in over your head?" That could add to the stress and if he hadn't been so headstrong and Elder so determined that they weren't going to accept help from other experienced sources prehaps it wouldn't have been such a pressure cooker.

Oh, and BTW - I'm not the only one who keeps bringing up his "health" issue, but I am willing to drop it as I indicated to nuisanceposter.



JMO

[Athena]

Interesting interview with Greta, Hunter, Dershowitz, Thomas, Thompson (who at the time was running for DA to take Hunter's spot). Just some excerpts but I do urge you to read the entire trranscript:

Alan, when should a prosecutor bring a case? ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, "THE GENESIS OF JUSTICE": A prosecutor should bring a case only when on the basis of admissible evidence the case would be proved to satisfaction of a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the constitutional standard. That's the standard we respect all through this country, and I think that Mr. Hunter was absolutely right in not bringing this country, and I think that Mr. Hunter was absolutely right in not bringing this case. I've looked at the Thomas book. It's full of speculation, theory, innuendo. He says his hypothesis is this. You know, that wouldn't even be a close case.

It would be unethical for a prosecutor to bring the case that is presented in this book to the -- to a jury. It would be wrong. It would be unethical. I think that Alex Hunter is, although he's become criticized, I think he's a constitutional hero. He's a man who has made a decision to take the barbs and the slings, and there are going to be many, because it's much easier to bring the case. It would take no courage to bring the prosecution, and then if the jury acquitted, blame it on the jury. But it takes a lot of courage for a district attorney to bite the bullet and take the hard decision, and say there was a murder, maybe it's even likely certain people did it, but likely isn't enough.

The case is not here beyond a reasonable doubt, and Alex Hunter is absolutely right in his decision.

HUNTER: You know, let's not be a couple of cats going around the perimeter of the property. Let me tell you why I am on this show tonight. I am on the show tonight because I think that the book you have published not only violates the 3.6 rules and 3.8 that applies to police officers, but your own department's regulations, and if this is going to be a model of what we want our detectives to be doing with cases that are still alive, where there's no statute of limitations, then I think the impact on American criminal justice is going to be extraordinary. That's why I'm on this program.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0005/04/lkl.00.html

[shill]

Originally posted by Coloradokares


It is one of the basic difference between those who are IDI and RDI. It's one of those basic differences between a Witch Hunt and Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by shill
It's one of those basic differences between a Witch Hunt and Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

How many times and in how many forums have you ever heard me say anything but lets get it into a court see if reasonable doubt can be made. Till its there its all speculation. Many will come to the forums Shill. Patsy did it and thats final or John did it anyone with a brain knows that. All I have ever asked is for a special prosecutor to be appointed. Wheres your hunt....I know who the witch is.... Glad this isn't Salem MASS.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by shill
It's one of those basic differences between a Witch Hunt and Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

I see. It's only a "witch hunt" if we think the Ramseys were involved. They alone stand "innocent until proven guilty." The rest of the persons discussed as being suspects don't have that same right. Alrighty then. :rolleyes:

[shill]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


I see. It's only a "witch hunt" if we think the Ramseys were involved. They alone stand "innocent until proven guilty." The rest of the persons discussed as being suspects don't have that same right. Alrighty then. :rolleyes: I don't know what you are trying to say.
It's a witch hunt anytime you take some one to trial on hearsay. That's why they have a Grand Jury.

If it's going to be a witch hunt, then bring the rest of the suspects to trial. Start with Fleet White and then the McReynolds, "The Prophet", ect.

[Athena]

I know JR does not remember if the light were on and under the circumstances it is understandable.

In Fleet White's depo (what little is available), he specifically says John DID turn on the light as he entered the room and BEFORE he saw JBR. In FW's depo he also says the wine cellar door was open when he went down there a bit after 6AM and also says he noticed the broken window.

The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF 23; PSMF 23.) Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF 25; PSMF 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.) He further testified that a window in the basement playroom was broken. (SMF 26; PSMF 26; White Dep. at 28, 152)

10 Although referred to as the "wine cellar," the room was actually used for storage and was "a dark, dirty area" with mold growing on the floor. (F. White Dep. at 228.)


Page 12

& 154.) Under the broken window, Mr. White states there was a suitcase, along with a broken shard of glass. (SMF 27; PSMF 27; White Dep. at 28-29, 156-59, & 265.) He does not, however, remember whether the window was opened or closed. 11 ( SMF 28 ; PSMF 28; White Dep. at 153.) Mr. White also opened the door to the wine cellar room, but he could not see anything inside because it was dark and he could not find the light switch. ( SMF 29 ; PSMF 29; White Dep. at 159-61.)

Later that afternoon, Mr. Ramsey and Mr. White together returned to the basement at the suggestion of the Boulder Police. (SMF 32; PSMF 32; White Dep. at 212-217; J. Ramsey Dep. at 17 20.) During this joint search of the basement, the men first

========================================

11 Mr. Ramsey testified that the window had been broken the previous summer. (SMF 30; PSMF 30; J. Ramsey Aff. , 30.)


Page 13

examined the playroom and observed the broken window. (SMF 33; PSMF 33.) The men next searched a shower stall located in the basement. {SMF 34; PSMF 34.} Mr. Ramsey then noticed a heavy fireplace grate propped in front of a closet and Mr. White moved the grate so the closet could be searched. (SMF 35: PSMF 35.) Upon finding nothing unusual in the closet, the men proceeded to the wine cellar room. Mr. Ramsey entered the room first, turned on the light and, upon discovery of JonBenet's dead body, he exclaimed "Oh my God, my baby." (SMF 36, 37: PSMF 36, 37; White Dep. at 162-63, 193-93.)

http://www.acandyrose.com/03312003carnes11-20.htm

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by Athena
I know JR does not remember if the light were on and under the circumstances it is understandable.

In Fleet White's depo (what little is available), he specifically says John DID turn on the light as he entered the room and BEFORE he saw JBR. In FW's depo he also says the wine cellar door was open when he went down there a bit after 6AM and also says he noticed the broken window.

The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF 23; PSMF 23.) Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF 25; PSMF 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.) He further testified that a window in the basement playroom was broken. (SMF 26; PSMF 26; White Dep. at 28, 152)

10 Although referred to as the "wine cellar," the room was actually used for storage and was "a dark, dirty area" with mold growing on the floor. (F. White Dep. at 228.)


Page 12

& 154.) Under the broken window, Mr. White states there was a suitcase, along with a broken shard of glass. (SMF 27; PSMF 27; White Dep. at 28-29, 156-59, & 265.) He does not, however, remember whether the window was opened or closed. 11 ( SMF 28 ; PSMF 28; White Dep. at 153.) Mr. White also opened the door to the wine cellar room, but he could not see anything inside because it was dark and he could not find the light switch. ( SMF 29 ; PSMF 29; White Dep. at 159-61.)

Later that afternoon, Mr. Ramsey and Mr. White together returned to the basement at the suggestion of the Boulder Police. (SMF 32; PSMF 32; White Dep. at 212-217; J. Ramsey Dep. at 17 20.) During this joint search of the basement, the men first

========================================

11 Mr. Ramsey testified that the window had been broken the previous summer. (SMF 30; PSMF 30; J. Ramsey Aff. , 30.)


Page 13

examined the playroom and observed the broken window. (SMF 33; PSMF 33.) The men next searched a shower stall located in the basement. {SMF 34; PSMF 34.} Mr. Ramsey then noticed a heavy fireplace grate propped in front of a closet and Mr. White moved the grate so the closet could be searched. (SMF 35: PSMF 35.) Upon finding nothing unusual in the closet, the men proceeded to the wine cellar room. Mr. Ramsey entered the room first, turned on the light and, upon discovery of JonBenet's dead body, he exclaimed "Oh my God, my baby." (SMF 36, 37: PSMF 36, 37; White Dep. at 162-63, 193-93.)

http://www.acandyrose.com/03312003carnes11-20.htm

Thanks Athena. I've never seen that before.
Ok....if FW says that the door to the wine cellar was open and the basement lights were on, who was in the basement before him? JR has stated over and over again that when he found JB, the wine cellar door was closed and he had to "unlatch" it.
If the suitcase was under the window when FW went in the basement, why didn't JR mention this to LE when he did his quick check of the basement? I am going on the assumption that JR was in the basement first. I wish that could be known for a fact. Officer French (?) stated that the cellar door was closed when he did his little search. So who closed that door? Why was it open when FW went down there? Does anyone know the sequence of who entered the basement?
JR has stated that the door to the train room was blocked by a chair and boxes, which he had to move in order to enter the room. If FW found a shard of glass, did he move those things to get into the room or had they already been moved?
This just gets more confusing by the moment.

[Athena]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


Thanks Athena. I've never seen that before.
Ok....if FW says that the door to the wine cellar was open and the basement lights were on, who was in the basement before him? JR has stated over and over again that when he found JB, the wine cellar door was closed and he had to "unlatch" it.
If the suitcase was under the window when FW went in the basement, why didn't JR mention this to LE when he did his quick check of the basement? I am going on the assumption that JR was in the basement first. I wish that could be known for a fact. Officer French (?) stated that the cellar door was closed when he did his little search. So who closed that door? Why was it open when FW went down there? Does anyone know the sequence of who entered the basement?
JR has stated that the door to the train room was blocked by a chair and boxes, which he had to move in order to enter the room. If FW found a shard of glass, did he move those things to get into the room or had they already been moved?
This just gets more confusing by the moment.

That is my fault TWW. In my preface to the transcript I said the door was open and meant to say Fleet White opened the door.

Mr. White also opened the door to the wine cellar room, but he could not see anything inside because it was dark and he could not find the light switch. ( SMF 29 ; PSMF 29; White Dep. at 159-61.)

The sequence of events from everything I've read says that French arrived at the Ramseys within 7 minutes of the 911 call. Shortly thereafter he searches the basement for entry points. Fleet White arrives at 6AM and searches the basement by 6:15AM and probably just closed the door. JR went down to the basement between 7 and 8AM prior to him waiting for the telephone call from the kidnapper between 8AM-10AM. French could not have been down there long since FW went down right after him and it doesn't appear they "bumped" into each other. If French saw a box and chair in front of a door he may have just bypassed it thus not seeing the broken window either and just thought there was no entry or exit if boxes and chair were in front of the door. Remember he specifically was looking for entry routes. There is no documentation either way how much of the basement French actually searched - only that in hindsight he wishes he had opened the door to the wine cellar. JMO

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by Athena


That is my fault TWW. In my preface to the transcript I said the door was open and meant to say Fleet White opened the door.

Mr. White also opened the door to the wine cellar room, but he could not see anything inside because it was dark and he could not find the light switch. ( SMF 29 ; PSMF 29; White Dep. at 159-61.)

The sequence of events from everything I've read says that French arrived at the Ramseys within 7 minutes of the 911 call. Shortly thereafter he searches the basement for entry points. Fleet White arrives at 6AM and searches the basement by 6:15AM and probably just closed the door. JR went down to the basement between 7 and 8AM prior to him waiting for the telephone call from the kidnapper between 8AM-10AM. French could not have been down there long since FW went down right after him and it doesn't appear they "bumped" into each other. If French saw a box and chair in front of a door he may have just bypassed it thus not seeing the broken window either and just thought there was no entry or exit if boxes and chair were in front of the door. Remember he specifically was looking for entry routes. There is no documentation either way how much of the basement French actually searched - only that in hindsight he wishes he had opened the door to the wine cellar. JMO

That's ok, Athena. I skimmed through the link you gave and I missed it too (about the door). Well, I guess it's back to square one, then. :(