DISCUSSION THREAD WEEK OF 8/14

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by redjetta


Oh yeah didnt you hear anyone who questions his guilt is in love with him & is a very sick sick person?

Why is it that when some have differing opinions they have to classify you in these ways?

red .... I have no idea. It's insulting though.

JMO

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by No Nic


Until started posting on this board, yes Heyes, I DID expect more. I did not know how hateful people could be towards someone they have never met, someone who has lost her only daughter. Disagree with her if you want, but these people go WAY over the top with it.

IMO, MOO IMOO, IMHO, etc etc

You see, No Nic .... you often talk about a "double standard". I feel it's hateful to accuse someone of kidnapping, raping and murdering Natalee, when there is no evidence of it. Is that justified?? I believe that's absolutely going over the top.

JMO

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

You are aware the Urban Dictionary is as much a dictionary as Wikpedia is an encyclopedia, aren't you?

Let's face it. You took a shot at embarrassing nascarmom, and it backfired. Why don't you just apologize to her?

Sheesh Gregor. Why are you being so paranoid?:confused:

I did not mean to criticize or embarrass anybody. When's the last time you saw the word "raper.?" It is rarely used and is considered slang.

IMO

[redjetta]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


red .... I have no idea. It's insulting though.

JMO

I find it very insulting also!

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by No Nic


That's your answer?

It's okay, because, IMO, you DO know that in the REAL WORLD, Beth is very respected and much in demand for the knowledge she was forced to learn while in Aruba watching the farce of an investigation of her disappeared (Aruban word) daughter.

imo

No Nic .... It doesn't matter a hill of beans, but Beth doesn't have MY respect for doing that. She has no respect from me at all traveling around the country telling her "story", which is absolutely unproven!!! I would imagine there are others who feel the same way I do. When Beth is traveling around the country, she is a "sympathy seeker" .... lining her pockets as she goes.

JMO

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


Sheesh Gregor. Why are you being so paranoid?:confused:

I did not mean to criticize or embarrass anybody. When's the last time you saw the word "raper.?" It is rarely used and is considered slang.

IMO
If you knew it's rarely used and considered slang why did you question it?

[No Nic]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


No Nic .... It doesn't matter a hill of beans, but Beth doesn't have MY respect for doing that. She has no respect from me at all traveling around the country telling her "story", which is absolutely unproven!!! I would imagine there are others who feel the same way I do. When Beth is traveling around the country, she is a "sympathy seeker" .... lining her pockets as she goes.

JMO

As you well know by now, I agree with none of that.

I am sure, given the choice, she would have gladly chosen a different path for her life 14+ months ago.

imo

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


They believe the moderator condones it, simply because FW said Beth's statements can be discussed.

IMO, boundaries need to be set on this board. Rarely is Natalee discussed here, and only then in the context of blaming her mother for her own daughter's demise, as if Beth, a normal mother, doesn't regret letting Natalee go to Aruba, despite the fact that the more than 100 other MB students arrived home safely.

Moms blame themselves for taking their little ones to the park when they get injured. Can you imagne how Beth feels? I've never witnesed such cruelty towards a victim's mother, although Sharon Rocha and Ron Grantski came mighty close, and by many of the same posters too.

IMO

Paula .... I believe boundaries ARE set on the board. I have asked many times .... no one has answered me .... what can we discuss about Natalee??

Sharon Rocha was the epitome of class to me. There is no comparison between the 2 mothers.

I have a problem the way you discuss the VDS's .... I don't whine about it. THAT is your opinion. I don't see you holding back.

Comparing cases and how people POSTED in any particular case, is unfair, at best. One case has nothing to do with the other. I've noticed you post on other boards, where I've agreed with you. On this one I don't.

JMO

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

If you knew it's rarely used and considered slang why did you question it?

What is this - NYPD Blue? Why are you interrogating me? Are you a retired cop or something?


moo

[redjetta]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


What is this - NYPD Blue? Why are you interrogating me? Are you a retired cop or something?


moo

LOL :D

[redjetta]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Paula .... I believe boundaries ARE set on the board. I have asked many times .... no one has answered me .... what can we discuss about Natalee??

Sharon Rocha was the epitome of class to me. There is no comparison between the 2 mothers.

I have a problem the way you discuss the VDS's .... I don't whine about it. THAT is your opinion. I don't see you holding back.

Comparing cases and how people POSTED in any particular case, is unfair, at best. One case has nothing to do with the other. I've noticed you post on other boards, where I've agreed with you. On this one I don't.

JMO

Perfectly said Fair!

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by Helping Hand


How is this kind of exchange helpful? Helpful? How can any of us be helpful?

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


What is this - NYPD Blue? Why are you interrogating me? Are you a retired cop or something?

moo
As Freshwater asked, I'm trying to help maintain a level of civility.

I don't think trying to demean or belittle a poster is civil.

I think you should apologize.

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by Helping Hand


Yup. I recall that. But just because we can discuss something doesn't mean we should. Why the desire to talk endless about the mother of a missing girl? How is this helpful or informative? How can any of us be helpful or informative? We know very little and even if we discovered something, I'm sure someone knew it before us.

We come from different backgrounds which gives us a different perspective or perspectives. I don't see the group as two sides but many views which some try to put into two boxes.

We each pick and choose bits of information and run it through the grinder that is our feelings and perceptions.


MOO

[No Nic]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

As Freshwater asked, I'm trying to help maintain a level of civility.

I don't think trying to demean or belittle a poster is civil.

I think you should apologize.


:rolleyes:

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Paula .... I believe boundaries ARE set on the board. I have asked many times .... no one has answered me .... what can we discuss about Natalee??

Sharon Rocha was the epitome of class to me. There is no comparison between the 2 mothers.

I have a problem the way you discuss the VDS's .... I don't whine about it. THAT is your opinion. I don't see you holding back.

Comparing cases and how people POSTED in any particular case, is unfair, at best. One case has nothing to do with the other. I've noticed you post on other boards, where I've agreed with you. On this one I don't.

JMO

Exactly what problem do you have with me re the VDS's?

I don't discuss them, other than my belief that Joran is guilty, and that I feel his father assisted him, as in "no body, no case".

I don't go on and on about them, although I should, just to keep things balanced on this board.

I don't talk about Anita. She has made statements I could pick apart, but I don't. So, again, what problem do you have with me re the VDS's?

[redjetta]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
How can any of us be helpful or informative? We know very little and even if we discovered something, I'm sure someone knew it before us.

We come from different backgrounds which gives us a different perspective or perspectives. I don't see the group as two sides but many views which some try to put into two boxes.

We each pick and choose bits of information and run it through the grinder that is our feelings and perceptions.


MOO

I have been very frustrated lately over this subject & I am glad you addressed it so perfectly. I think some posters forget that we are all different with different opinions. Just because we may agree on certain subjects doesnt mean that were a "team" "friends" "the other side" & whatever else some classify the poster who are exploring EVERY possiblilty.
imo

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Exactly what problem do you have with me re the VDS's?

I don't discuss them, other than my belief that Joran is guilty, and that I feel his father assisted him, as in "no body, no case".

I don't go on and on about them, although I should, just to keep things balanced on this board.

I don't talk about Anita. She has made statements I could pick apart, but I don't. So, again, what problem do you have with me re the VDS's?

Just what you said. You have no problem discussing their guilt, even though there isn't any evidence, according to the Prosecutor. Plus, PVDS has been released from suspect status. The only one, incidentally.

You have a problem with me because I disagree with Beth's actions. I disagree with almost everything she says or does. You have your opinion .... mine is different. That's the way it sometimes IS on messageboards .... especially THIS one. There IS diversity of opinions on this board. On some forums, every poster is of the same opinion. I prefer THIS one.

I have never had a problem saying IF .... IF .... they find evidence against Joran et al, regarding their responsibility for the disappearance of Natalee, I will have no problem with that.

JMO

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
How can any of us be helpful or informative? We know very little and even if we discovered something, I'm sure someone knew it before us.

We come from different backgrounds which gives us a different perspective or perspectives. I don't see the group as two sides but many views which some try to put into two boxes.

We each pick and choose bits of information and run it through the grinder that is our feelings and perceptions.


MOO

Very well said Luke! :seeya:

:)

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


They believe the moderator condones it, simply because FW said Beth's statements can be discussed.

IMO, boundaries need to be set on this board. Rarely is Natalee discussed here, and only then in the context of blaming her mother for her own daughter's demise, as if Beth, a normal mother, doesn't regret letting Natalee go to Aruba, despite the fact that the more than 100 other MB students arrived home safely.

Moms blame themselves for taking their little ones to the park when they get injured. Can you imagne how Beth feels? I've never witnesed such cruelty towards a victim's mother, although Sharon Rocha and Ron Grantski came mighty close, and by many of the same posters too.

IMO Bounds have been set by the Moderator. She specifically stated no wild speculations, base your theories on facts but that doesn't stop you from claiming Paulus, who was cleared of any involvement, helped his son depose of the dead body belonging to someone who hasn't even been declared or proven dead!

And then there was the wild speculation that Joran somehow knew in mid July that BFN would publish some 'statements' in August and thought well gee, they might be damaging to his image so he hired a PR rep and got a pretty girl to hang with him while another actress pretended to be a disgusted tourist ,snapping pictures for the US media.

Beth's lies have been proven.

J2K have not been proven to have caused the vanishing of Natalee Holloway and the Prosecutor in charge of the case declared there is no evidence, trace or otherwise, a crime was committed.

[Helping Hand]

Originally posted by No Nic


So, it's a pattern with them? This is my first case here on CTV so I have no history with the posters. If they are like this in every case, then it is even sadder and more distrubing than I thought.

imo

No it's not always like this. But in this case with so little evidence and the fact that Beth has been so vocal. But I figure you gotta respect a mom making such a fus - It's her child and I think most moms would die for their child. So even with all the lies and contridictions you have to give it up for Beth. She has kept this case in the spotlight. If Natalee was ever going to be found I think her mother would have found her by now.

Check out some other cases where there is more to go on and you'll see it's different. And despite how some people feel I think freshwater tries very hard to be fair to all. I don't envy his job.

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by No Nic


That's your answer?

It's okay, because, IMO, you DO know that in the REAL WORLD, Beth is very respected and much in demand for the knowledge she was forced to learn while in Aruba watching the farce of an investigation of her disappeared (Aruban word) daughter.

imo No she's not in 'high demand' in the 'real world'.

If it was such a farcce of an investigation, why does she want the investigation file bad enough that she filed a false tort claim in HOPES that she would get that file in discovery?

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Slang? :shrug:

[feelings]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

As Freshwater asked, I'm trying to help maintain a level of civility.

I don't think trying to demean or belittle a poster is civil.

I think you should apologize.
IMO you are only acting as if. I think you should apologize for your spitting contest, and admit that lawyers are not allowed to work for free in Aruba, that you have no link, otherwise you would have posted it.

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


Yes. Try the Urban Dictionary (Slang dictionary)

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=raper
Try a regular dictionary :read:

raper

n : someone who forces another to have sexual intercourse [syn: rapist]


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

rapist

n : someone who forces another to have sexual intercourse [syn: raper]


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/raper

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by Helping Hand


Yes but the inconsistancies in the story of the last known person to see Natalee alive are VERY RELEVANT to the case. Ranting "joran lies" is not. How is what Joran says, relevant?

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


raper?? :confused: raper
n : someone who forces another to have sexual intercourse [syn:
rapist]

raper (http://dict.die.net/raper/)

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by redjetta


FW is around alot if she/he has a problem then we will all be advised

imo Clear your PM box just in case.:biggrin:

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by redjetta


Perfectly said Fair! But there is still room for improvement.:biggrin:

MOO

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

As Freshwater asked, I'm trying to help maintain a level of civility.

I don't think trying to demean or belittle a poster is civil.

I think you should apologize. Thank you Gregor and I agree.

[feelings]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Bounds have been set by the Moderator. She specifically stated no wild speculations, base your theories on facts but that doesn't stop you from claiming Paulus, who was cleared of any involvement, helped his son depose of the dead body belonging to someone who hasn't even been declared or proven dead!
...

what you claim is false. Natalee was declared dead. One of the suspects was going to show the police where they buried her dead body. Then this declaration was retracted and explained away as a misinformation campaign (maybe that´s when it started). Paulus hasn´t been "cleared of any involvement". IMO

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by feelings

what you claim is false. Natalee was declared dead. One of the suspects was going to show the police where they buried her dead body. Then this declaration was retracted and explained away as a misinformation campaign (maybe that´s when it started). Paulus hasn´t been "cleared of any involvement". IMO What you claim is false.

The REPORT was retracted,not the declaration as there never was any such declaration.

Paulus has indeed been cleared of all involvement and was released from suspect status.

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by feelings

what you claim is false. Natalee was declared dead. One of the suspects was going to show the police where they buried her dead body. Then this declaration was retracted and explained away as a misinformation campaign (maybe that´s when it started). Paulus hasn´t been "cleared of any involvement". IMO

Feelings, it was a mistake. Natalee wasn't declared dead and no one was showing the police where she was buried. And Paulus has been cleared and is not a suspect.

:)

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Just what you said. You have no problem discussing their guilt, even though there isn't any evidence, according to the Prosecutor. Plus, PVDS has been released from suspect status. The only one, incidentally.

You have a problem with me because I disagree with Beth's actions. I disagree with almost everything she says or does. You have your opinion .... mine is different. That's the way it sometimes IS on messageboards .... especially THIS one. There IS diversity of opinions on this board. On some forums, every poster is of the same opinion. I prefer THIS one.

I have never had a problem saying IF .... IF .... they find evidence against Joran et al, regarding their responsibility for the disappearance of Natalee, I will have no problem with that.

JMO


Excellent post FM#1.

Not only was Paulus released but he was compensated for his wrongful arrest but that doesn't stop some from accusing him of disposing of Natalee's body (no one knows for fact that she is even dead) yet we are not supposed to discuss Beth's well known and documented lies. :shrug:

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Bounds have been set by the Moderator. She specifically stated no wild speculations, base your theories on facts but that doesn't stop you from claiming Paulus, who was cleared of any involvement, helped his son depose of the dead body belonging to someone who hasn't even been declared or proven dead!

And then there was the wild speculation that Joran somehow knew in mid July that BFN would publish some 'statements' in August and thought well gee, they might be damaging to his image so he hired a PR rep and got a pretty girl to hang with him while another actress pretended to be a disgusted tourist ,snapping pictures for the US media.

Beth's lies have been proven.

J2K have not been proven to have caused the vanishing of Natalee Holloway and the Prosecutor in charge of the case declared there is no evidence, trace or otherwise, a crime was committed.


Another excellent post.

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by feelings

what you claim is false. Natalee was declared dead. One of the suspects was going to show the police where they buried her dead body. Then this declaration was retracted and explained away as a misinformation campaign (maybe that´s when it started). Paulus hasn´t been "cleared of any involvement". IMO


Nov. 10, 2005

Paul van der Sloot wins unjust detention action against the Aruban government and, by with that court victory, is no longer legally a suspect.

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2005/06/08/in_depth_us/timeline700368_0_main.shtml


Paulus has been released as a suspect and awarded compensation for his wrongful detention.

[ebnrsg1]

Originally posted by treetime


the chances of any one donating funds to help K2 are about the same as JOE T sueing anyone


AINT gonna happen............................................ EVER
:D

Tree you are missing the perfect opportunity here. Why not donate the money for Deepak to sue. then when he loses you will have scored points for Beth. Much more helpful to the case than posting a reward for the shoes I think

[treetime]

Originally posted by ebnrsg1


Tree you are missing the perfect opportunity here. Why not donate the money for Deepak to sue. then when he loses you will have scored points for Beth. Much more helpful to the case than posting a reward for the shoes I think

thanks but no thanks

i will continue to send small amounts to Tim MILLER

he does good work

:)

[nascarmom]

The investigation is being conducted according to the rule of law. The legal system of Aruba is identical to that of the Netherlands, which receives the highest marks from the United States
Department of State. It differs from the US system but it is as effective.

Of course, we are all working closely together. The Royal Netherlands Marines, the Joint Dutch Aruban Investigation Team, the Netherlands Forensic Institute, the Coast Guard for the
Netherlands Antilles and Aruba and Dutch legal experts are assisting the local authorities in Aruba together with US authorities, including the Department of State and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

Boudewijn van Eenennaam Ambassador Kingdom of the Netherlands (http://brochures.aruba.com/holloway/Dutch-Ambassador-Statement.pdf)

That's a whole lotta people to be involved in a coverup and conspiracy for the son of a Judge in Training in the name of tourism $$$$$$$

[feelings]

Originally posted by Watership Down



Nov. 10, 2005

Paul van der Sloot wins unjust detention action against the Aruban government and, by with that court victory, is no longer legally a suspect.

http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2005/06/08/in_depth_us/timeline700368_0_main.shtml


Paulus has been released as a suspect and awarded compensation for his wrongful detention.
were the security guards and others that were released as suspects awarded compensation for their wrongful detention? No? Anyway, I don´t think the fact that PVDS won in court means he is really cleared as a suspect. Just like I don´t believe those that didn´t get compensation for their detention were rightfully detained. I think PVDS probably just knows how the system works. Didn´t he work for the prosecution before? He knows how to play this game and win. How he coached his son and his friends is suspicious. IMO

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by feelings

were the security guards and others that were released as suspects awarded compensation for their wrongful detention? No? Anyway, I don´t think the fact that PVDS won in court means he is really cleared as a suspect. Just like I don´t believe those that didn´t get compensation for their detention were rightfully detained. I think PVDS probably just knows how the system works. Didn´t he work for the prosecution before? He knows how to play this game and win. How he coached his son and his friends is suspicious. IMO No one else has been released as a suspect.

He didn't coach anyone. He let them know what to expect if they went from witness to suspect. Judges from Curaco ruled he was unjustly detained because he was jailed simply to pressure Joran.

He has been totally cleared.

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by nascarmom
No one else has been released as a suspect.

He didn't coach anyone. He let them know what to expect if they went from witness to suspect. Judges from Curaco ruled he was unjustly detained because he was jailed simply to pressure Joran.

He has been totally cleared.

You sound as if it is a fact that "He didn't coach anyone." How do you know what he let them know?

Just because PVDS told that story doesn't mean that it's true.


moo

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


You sound as if it is a fact that "He didn't coach anyone." How do you know what he let them know?

Just because PVDS told that story doesn't mean that it's true.


moo If it weren't true, he would not have won his case.

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by nascarmom
If it weren't true, he would not have won his case.

There is absolutely no way to verify what Paulus meant when he met with the 3 suspects.



moo

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


There is absolutely no way to verify what Paulus meant when he met with the 3 suspects.



moo It's already been verified.

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by nascarmom
It's already been verified.

By whom? The 3 suspects? Anita? LMAO.

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


There is absolutely no way to verify what Paulus meant when he met with the 3 suspects.



moo

True, but we know that whatever he told them, it was too late to impact events on the night Natalee disappeared. And it was well after J2K learned that Natalee's family viewed them as suspects.

So the most obvious conclusion is that he was explaining how the legal system works in Aruba, which is what he said he was doing.

:)

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


By whom? The 3 suspects? Anita? LMAO. The judge who ruled on Paulus' case and then the 3 judges of appeal :read:

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


True, but we know that whatever he told them, it was too late to impact events on the night Natalee disappeared. And it was well after J2K learned that Natalee's family viewed them as suspects.

So the most obvious conclusion is that he was explaining how the legal system works in Aruba, which is what he said he was doing.

:)

I must respectfully disagree.

I believe he was telling them not to worry because without a body they will never be charged.

How did he know then that there would not be a body?


moo

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


I must respectfully disagree.

I believe he was telling them not to worry because without a body they will never be charged.

How did he know then that there would not be a body?


moo That's not what he said at all.

And cases can be prosecuted without a body, but there has to be evidence.

Who said he knew there wouldn't be a body :confused: where did that come from?

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


I must respectfully disagree.

I believe he was telling them not to worry because without a body they will never be charged.

How did he know then that there would not be a body?


moo

Exactly, he had no way of knowing. Which makes his explanation entirely plausible.

If he had make such a statement on the night Natalee disappeared it would be suspicious. But two or three days later was well past the time his advice could impact J2K’s actions on the night in question.



:)

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by feelings

were the security guards and others that were released as suspects awarded compensation for their wrongful detention? <snip> They were not released as suspects, they are still suspects. Their detention has not been ruled wrongful.

Or I may have missed something. Could you provide a link?

MOO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Exactly, he had no way of knowing. Which makes his explanation entirely plausible.

If he had make such a statement on the night Natalee disappeared it would be suspicious. But two or three days later was well past the time his advice could impact J2K’s actions on the night in question.



:)

Well, the way I see it is that we have no idea what happened to Natalee, now with that being said if Natalee died accidentally on the night in question and Joran somehow put her body in a temporary spot, possibly Paulus may have helped with a more permanent disposal later, whereas his words would definitely impact maybe not J2K's actions on the night in question, but others that may have helped later. JMO

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by nascarmom
That's not what he said at all.

And cases can be prosecuted without a body, but there has to be evidence.

Who said he knew there wouldn't be a body :confused: where did that come from?

HE knew there wouldn't be a body.

No Body - No Case
No Body - No Crime
Without a body there is no case

Take your pick.


moo

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


HE knew there wouldn't be a body.

No Body - No Case
No Body - No Crime
Without a body there is no case

Take your pick.


moo

But there have been cases in Aruba and the U.S. where there have been trials without bodies.......

so how does his statement in your context make any sense?

ETA....oh that's right.....he just knew that there would be no other evidence? :D

[Gregor's Back]

Here's something I think is interesting:

"Pietersz, John's lawyer, said she spoke to her client in jail Thursday.

"I have decided not to demand the immediate release of my client," she said. "We prefer to let the prosecution investigate, confident that my client will be released by Wednesday" when a judge will decide whether to extend his detention."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159006,00.html

Why would an attorney not ask for the release of her client if she had grounds to do so?

Why would she let him sit in jail for six more days?

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Well, the way I see it is that we have no idea what happened to Natalee, now with that being said if Natalee died accidentally on the night in question and Joran somehow put her body in a temporary spot, possibly Paulus may have helped with a more permanent disposal later, whereas his words would definitely impact maybe not J2K's actions on the night in question, but others that may have helped later. JMO

If Paulus had any knowledge that Joran was involved with Natalee's disappearence, he wouldn't have allowed Joran to be confronted and questioned by Natalee's family. IMO

:)

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


If Paulus had any knowledge that Joran was involved with Natalee's disappearence, he wouldn't have allowed Joran to be confronted and questioned by Natalee's family. IMO

:)

Nor would have give up his rights to even be questioned about his son....since that is a right under their system.

ETA....imagine if he would have used that RIGHT.....what these people would have said......oh see he's guilty...if he was innocent he would have gave up that right.....

[Narcissist15]

If Joran wouldn't have fought the civil suit.....oh see he is guilty because an innocent person would want to defend themself against those accusations.


Never ends.

[Narcissist15]

If he didn't go on Greta and do an interview.....oh see he is guilty because if I was innocent I would want to shout it from the mountain tops.

:D

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Narcissist15


Nor would have give up his rights to even be questioned about his son....since that is a right under their system.

ETA....imagine if he would have used that RIGHT.....what these people would have said......oh see he's guilty...if he was innocent he would have gave up that right.....

Many people seem to be trying to build a case around fours words, which may or may not be a direct quote. I find it better to look at the totality of his actions and words.

:)

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Well, the way I see it is that we have no idea what happened to Natalee, now with that being said if Natalee died accidentally on the night in question and Joran somehow put her body in a temporary spot, possibly Paulus may have helped with a more permanent disposal later, whereas his words would definitely impact maybe not J2K's actions on the night in question, but others that may have helped later. JMO That sounds like a good possibility. I also think something else might have happened. J2K could have thought Natalee was ok, when they realized she wasn't, then if there is no body nothing can be proven.


MOO

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Many people seem to be trying to build a case around fours words, which may or may not be a direct quote. I find it better to look at the totality of his actions and words.

:)

Unperson......that is a sound approach IMO

[Narcissist15]

They keep saying that Beth's comments are irrelevant.....

well yes they are irrelevant......

they have no relevance to what occurred to Natalee......they are not relevant to the facts of the case.....whether she believes J2K are guilty or not.....

I absolutely agree that what Beth says has no relevance.....no matter how many lies she may tell.

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


If Paulus had any knowledge that Joran was involved with Natalee's disappearence, he wouldn't have allowed Joran to be confronted and questioned by Natalee's family. IMO

:)

What makes you think that Paulus has any control over what Joran does or wants to do? I have also heard reports that Paulus told Joran he didn't have to talk to the family but it seems Joran chose to run his mouth spewing lies, sort of like when Joran decided to come to America and give his version of the truth against his lawyer and parent's wishes. JMO

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by SukiJane


What makes you think that Paulus has any control over what Joran does or wants to do? I have also heard reports that Paulus told Joran he didn't have to talk to the family but it seems Joran chose to run his mouth spewing lies, sort of like when Joran decided to come to America and give his version of the truth against his lawyer and parent's wishes. JMO

But if he hadn't you would claim how that was proof of guilt......

You know....if he was innocent he would want to address the issue.......yell from the mountain tops about his innocence.

So that doesn't fly....actually it flies in the face......of course then you have to claim something else......

Never ends as I stated.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by SukiJane


What makes you think that Paulus has any control over what Joran does or wants to do? I have also heard reports that Paulus told Joran he didn't have to talk to the family but it seems Joran chose to run his mouth spewing lies, sort of like when Joran decided to come to America and give his version of the truth against his lawyer and parent's wishes. JMO
Paulus told Joran he didn't have to answer any questions after some of the posse members became rowdy.

Please link to a credible source that says Joran "ran his mouth spewing lies."

[feelings]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
They were not released as suspects, they are still suspects. Their detention has not been ruled wrongful.

Or I may have missed something. Could you provide a link?

MOO
I think you missed the meaning of my post. That´s exactly what I said: They were not released as suspects. They are still suspects. Their detention has not been ruled wrongful. Does that mean it was rightful? IMO NOT.

[Narcissist15]

If I said well he didn't come because of the advice of his parents and his attorney.....


You would say that is a cop out......that the real reason is that he is guilty.


You know it and I know it.....that would be exactly what those that think he is guilty would say.

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
That sounds like a good possibility. I also think something else might have happened. J2K could have thought Natalee was ok, when they realized she wasn't, then if there is no body nothing can be proven.


MOO

Who knows, but in my opinion those words direct quote or not would not have sounded so bad had Joran just told the truth in the beginning. Joran's lies, and his father's supposed quote just are not actions of innocent people in my opinion. JMO

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by feelings

I think you missed the meaning of my post. That´s exactly what I said: They were not released as suspects. They are still suspects. Their detention has not been ruled wrongful. Does that mean it was rightful? IMO NOT.
Hopeintown posted a link, by mistake I'm sure, that said the ex-security guards were arrested on a tip.

Do you think ALE should have ignored tips?

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by SukiJane


What makes you think that Paulus has any control over what Joran does or wants to do? I have also heard reports that Paulus told Joran he didn't have to talk to the family but it seems Joran chose to run his mouth spewing lies, sort of like when Joran decided to come to America and give his version of the truth against his lawyer and parent's wishes. JMO

All parties agree that when Beth's group showed up at the VDS home, Paulus called Joran and facilitated the meeting between Joran and the family.

PVDS didn't have any obligation to cooperate with Beth, he could have told her Joran was at a friends, he could have simply said he wasn't home, or he could have told her to go to hell, instead he responded to a desperate parent.

Those are not the actions of a father protecting a guilty son, they are the actions of a decent human being.

:)

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by feelings

I think you missed the meaning of my post. That´s exactly what I said: They were not released as suspects. They are still suspects. Their detention has not been ruled wrongful. Does that mean it was rightful? IMO NOT.

Do you know what evidence that there may have been to arrest (detain, just to be clear on suspicion) them?

I mean if they had property belonging to the MB students......would that be enough to rightfully detain them.......

That's quite a leap without knowing....but of course claiming someone is guilty without proof is a leap.....and that doesn't seem to be a problem.

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


All parties agree that when Beth's group showed up at the VDS home, Paulus called Joran and facilitated the meeting between Joran and the family.

PVDS didn't have any obligation to cooperate with Beth, he could have told her Joran was at a friends, he could have simply said he wasn't home, or he could have told her to go to hell, instead he responded to a desperate parent.

Those are not the actions of a father protecting a guilty son, they are the actions of a decent human being.

:)

Unperson....I agree.

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Paulus told Joran he didn't have to answer any questions after some of the posse members became rowdy.

Please link to a credible source that says Joran "ran his mouth spewing lies."

Do I really need to provide a link that Joran lied to the family and police about dropping Natalee off at the Holiday Inn?

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Do I really need to provide a link that Joran lied to the family and police about dropping Natalee off at the Holiday Inn?

Oh so Beth saying she didn't talk to Joran that first night is a lie?

:shrug:

ETA....she was just sitting in the car.

[Narcissist15]

Suki you can still link up if you like.....I suppose if Beth is the one claiming such you may not want to.....since she was sitting in the car and didn't hear anything.

[Narcissist15]

Suki....oh I am sorry....I am incorrect.....

she was sitting in the car and Joran approached her aggressively.....and said what do you want me to do.......


:)

[Narcissist15]

Can't wait for the FBI to release info........Unperson, I'm hoping that when the Arubans release their info that the FBI will release their info....

I see no reason for them not to.....and it will be a good day.

ETA....I think what Joe T. has said about focus on just the 3 will be correct......and that I agree that ALE handled the case much like it would have been handled in the U.S.

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Narcissist15
Can't wait for the FBI to release info........Unperson, I'm hoping that when the Arubans release their info that the FBI will release their info....

I see no reason for them not to.....and it will be a good day.

ETA....I think what Joe T. has said about focus on just the 3 will be correct......and that I agree that ALE handled the case much like it would have been handled in the U.S.

Actually I think Aruban LE had quite an advantage over the US. They were able to detain and question J2k on a daily basis, something that never would have happened here.

The net result was no evidence and nothing can change that fact.

:)

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Actually I think Aruban LE had quite an advantage over the US. They were able to detain and question J2k on a daily basis, something that never would have happened here.

The net result was no evidence and nothing can change that fact.

:)

That is correct....many believe that the LE in this country would be all for the power that police have in Aruba.

And there was no evidence.

But FBI releasing the info will affirm that. IMO

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Narcissist15


That is correct....many believe that the LE in this country would be all for the power that police have in Aruba.

And there was no evidence.

But FBI releasing the info will affirm that. IMO

I don't have high expectations that the FBI will release anything. It has been my experience that it's like pulling teeth to get investigative records from the FBI or the US Attorney's office.

On the other hand, their test results and interviews should be included in the Aruban files.

:)

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


I don't have high expectations that the FBI will release anything. It has been my experience that it's like pulling teeth to get investigative records from the FBI or the US Attorney's office.

On the other hand, their test results and interviews should be included in the Aruban files.

:)

Yep...like some of the interviews of MB students that were done by the FBI that were included in the files of the civil suit.

[paralegallin]

Originally posted by Narcissist15


It's quite "incredible" as Paula described it.

I wanna see too, can you send me the link by chance??

[paralegallin]

Originally posted by forensicpsy


raper?? :confused:

Oh please, like you didn't know they meant rapist. What a silly game to play.

[jantheman]

Originally posted by Helping Hand


True but again I ask: How are her words relevant to the case of the dissapearance of Natalee Holloway? hi..am intruding on this. for someone like me who DOES have sympathy for beth (and still believes joran is main suspect), her repetition of her beliefs that by now she knows are not fact..matter to me. In that, when she comes on as part of the coverage on greta ect...i tend to tune her out now. i understand her , and her anger and grief. But if i cannot trust what she has to say, i pay less attention to the case. and that seems counterproductive to what Beth wants, IE keeping her daughter's disappearance in the media...which keeps the pressure on.

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by Helping Hand


No it's not always like this. But in this case with so little evidence and the fact that Beth has been so vocal. But I figure you gotta respect a mom making such a fus - It's her child and I think most moms would die for their child. So even with all the lies and contridictions you have to give it up for Beth. She has kept this case in the spotlight. If Natalee was ever going to be found I think her mother would have found her by now.

Check out some other cases where there is more to go on and you'll see it's different. And despite how some people feel I think freshwater tries very hard to be fair to all. I don't envy his job.

When certain posters post on any board, it IS always like this.

I don't know if you were here when the Scott Peterson trial was going on, but although Sharon Rocha never spoke against her son-in-law, she was bashed everyday, as was her husband, who was accused of killing his stepdaughter. She was bashed for writing a book about her daughter, bashed for the the board she set up, and for which donations, which were collected, went to search and rescue funds, she was accused of lying, and not crying enough, etc, etc, etc. Read about Beth and you'll get some idea of what was said about Sharon Rocha.

They believe Beth lies because they believe Joran, even though he stated that he doesn't even believe himself. Beth hasn't lied. She believe J2K know exactly what happened to her daughter, and so do most others, including criminal profilers, lawyers, Pros, retired FBI members and TH's. The signed and unsigned statements/confession, which have surfaced, affirm Beth's beliefs.

This bashing of victims and their families, is not allowed on most MB, except for the hate sites, which were formed for that purpose, and which many of the posters here are members of.

I would never come to this board, if not for Natalee, and her family. Victims and their families need a voice to counteract the lies and hate spewed about them.

Bashing Beth, and picking her apart for every single inconsistency in a frustrated grieving mother, will not accomplish what this board is supposed to be about, i.e., learning what happened to Natalee Holloway. It didn't find Laci Peterson either, even though Sharon Rocha was bashed daily.

As for evidence: The posters I'm referring to still don't believe Scott Peterson is guilty. They are convinced there is no evidence. So how can a reasonable discussion of CE take place on this board, with the same posters. They bashed the jury and Judge Delucchi, who has an impeccable reputation.

They can believe whatever they choose, if they debate respectfully, without attacking those who disagree with them, and without constantly bashing the victim and her family.

IMO

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Do I really need to provide a link that Joran lied to the family and police about dropping Natalee off at the Holiday Inn?
No, but I'd still like to see a link that says he "ran his mouth spewing lies."

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back
Here's something I think is interesting:

"Pietersz, John's lawyer, said she spoke to her client in jail Thursday.

"I have decided not to demand the immediate release of my client," she said. "We prefer to let the prosecution investigate, confident that my client will be released by Wednesday" when a judge will decide whether to extend his detention."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159006,00.html

Why would an attorney not ask for the release of her client if she had grounds to do so?

Why would she let him sit in jail for six more days?
Wait....I thought it was J2K who allowed an innocent person to sit in jail :confused:

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Many people seem to be trying to build a case around fours words, which may or may not be a direct quote. I find it better to look at the totality of his actions and words.

:)

This is true, Un. We DON'T know that PVDS said "no body, no case" .... that could very well be someone's "interpretation" of what he said. He could have said something like .... "don't worry, if they haven't found her, probably nothing has happened", and that was interpreted as those immortal words .... "no body, no case".

JMO

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Wait....I thought it was J2K who allowed an innocent person to sit in jail :confused:
Now that we know it wasn't J2K's fault, why would an attorney let her client sit in jail six more days than he had to?

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


When certain posters post on any board, it IS always like this.

<SNIP>

IMO
What is the point of your post? To bash other posters with a differing opinion or to bash the moderation of this board?



Enough of the off topic drama :rolleyes:

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Now that we know it wasn't J2K's fault, why would an attorney let her client sit in jail six more days than he had to?
That is just bizarre.

Well now we know why a claim of unjust detention hasn't been made and it's got nothing to do with favortism or Paulus playing the system.

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by jantheman
hi..am intruding on this. for someone like me who DOES have sympathy for beth (and still believes joran is main suspect), her repetition of her beliefs that by now she knows are not fact..matter to me. In that, when she comes on as part of the coverage on greta ect...i tend to tune her out now. i understand her , and her anger and grief. But if i cannot trust what she has to say, i pay less attention to the case. and that seems counterproductive to what Beth wants, IE keeping her daughter's disappearance in the media...which keeps the pressure on.

jan .... You NEVER intrude. It's always good to see you.

Your post makes a great deal of sense. I wonder how many others feel like you do?? I think some have visions of people being "enthralled" by Beth any time she appears anywhere. I wonder, if like you, they tend to "tune her out"??

JMO

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


This is true, Un. We DON'T know that PVDS said "no body, no case" .... that could very well be someone's "interpretation" of what he said. He could have said something like .... "don't worry, if they haven't found her, probably nothing has happened", and that was interpreted as those immortal words .... "no body, no case".

JMO The polis car recording and Paulus' interviews have cleared this up.

It's the biggest misquote of this case but since the media said it and spun it, it must be true.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by nascarmom

That is just bizarre.

Well now we know why a claim of unjust detention hasn't been made and it's got nothing to do with favortism or Paulus playing the system.
I don't think it's the least bit bizarre. I think it makes sense.

There's at least one report that the ex-security guards were arrested on a tip. The report doesn't say if the tip was about Natalee's disappearance or some minor crime.

The guards are questioned by police who find no evidence they were involved in Natalee's disappearance, but they agree to sit in jail an additional six days.

Three other suspects are arrested.

Against sound police procedure at least two suspects, Mickey John and Deepak, are placed in the same area where they can communicate freely.

Mickey John is released and claims Deepak confessed to him about Joran's father's giving them advice and telling the "no body, no crime" story, although Deepak never confesses to the police.

Nothing bizarre, unless you think a string of coincidences is bizarre.

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


When certain posters post on any board, it IS always like this.

I don't know if you were here when the Scott Peterson trial was going on, but although Sharon Rocha never spoke against her son-in-law, she was bashed everyday, as was her husband, who was accused of killing his stepdaughter. She was bashed for writing a book about her daughter, bashed for the the board she set up, and for which donations, which were collected, went to search and rescue funds, she was accused of lying, and not crying enough, etc, etc, etc. Read about Beth and you'll get some idea of what was said about Sharon Rocha.

They believe Beth lies because they believe Joran, even though he stated that he doesn't even believe himself. Beth hasn't lied. She believe J2K know exactly what happened to her daughter, and so do most others, including criminal profilers, lawyers, Pros, retired FBI members and TH's. The signed and unsigned statements/confession, which have surfaced, affirm Beth's beliefs.

This bashing of victims and their families, is not allowed on most MB, except for the hate sites, which were formed for that purpose, and which many of the posters here are members of.

I would never come to this board, if not for Natalee, and her family. Victims and their families need a voice to counteract the lies and hate spewed about them.

Bashing Beth, and picking her apart for every single inconsistency in a frustrated grieving mother, will not accomplish what this board is supposed to be about, i.e., learning what happened to Natalee Holloway. It didn't find Laci Peterson either, even though Sharon Rocha was bashed daily.

As for evidence: The posters I'm referring to still don't believe Scott Peterson is guilty. They are convinced there is no evidence. So how can a reasonable discussion of CE take place on this board, with the same posters. They bashed the jury and Judge Delucchi, who has an impeccable reputation.

They can believe whatever they choose, if they debate respectfully, without attacking those who disagree with them, and without constantly bashing the victim and her family.

IMO

Paula ....

You started out by talking about the SP trial, and how certain posters would "bash" Sharon Rocha. Just FYI, as I said in another post, Sharon Rocha was the epitome of class to me .... and AGAIN, FYI, I think SP is exactly where he belongs. Sharon Rocha was NEVER "bashed" by me. Hopefully, you don't make the mistake, which others seem to do, by deducing that because I question the guilt of Joran et al, I thought SP was innocent. That would be far from the truth. I have the wherewithall to judge each case on its own merits.

I have acknowledged the fact that Joran et al lied. I have no problem at all with Beth THINKING whatever she wants to think. Where I begin to have problems with Beth, is her directly ACCUSING Joran et al of heinous crimes. I have a problem when she tells her "story" before thousands of kids in schools. NOTHING in that "story" of hers has been proven. I believe that's valid "criticism". You prefer to call it "bashing".

You talk about "hate sites", and you don't fail to point out that posters on THIS board, post on them also. I always think posters who REFER to these sites constantly, spend just as much time, if not more there. I've visited OTHER sites which I think are "hate sites". THAT, I believe, is in the eyes of the beholder.

Beth, UNLIKE Sharon Rocha, continues to place herself in the public eye. Not ALL people are going to endorse her .... not ALL people are going to agree with her .... SOME will criticize her. I believe that applies to everyone who places themselves in the public eye.

JMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

No, but I'd still like to see a link that says he "ran his mouth spewing lies."

Do you want me to link my original post, because I was the one who said Joran was spewing lies, based on the fact that he lied about not knowing Natalee, as if some other American family, besides the family of the American girl he left passed out on the beach, according to him, would show up at his house in the wee hours of the morning.

The fact that according to Charles Croes and Deepak, Joran wanted to help, wanted to know what he could do to help, which is another lie, because he couldn't even tell anyone the last place he had seen Natalee alive.

Oh, and of course, the elaborate lie of Natalee falling out of the car, refusing Joran's help, and was last seen being escorted by a man dressed in black with a walkie talkie at the Holiday Inn. JMO

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

I don't think it's the least bit bizarre. I think it makes sense.

There's at least one report that the ex-security guards were arrested on a tip. The report doesn't say if the tip was about Natalee's disappearance or some minor crime.

The guards are questioned by police who find no evidence they were involved in Natalee's disappearance, but they agree to sit in jail an additional six days.

Three other suspects are arrested.

Against sound police procedure at least two suspects, Mickey John and Deepak, are placed in the same area where they can communicate freely.

Mickey John is released and claims Deepak confessed to him about Joran's father's giving them advice and telling the "no body, no crime" story, although Deepak never confesses to the police.

Nothing bizarre, unless you think a string of coincidences is bizarre. :eek:

Jail house snitch. Wow Gregor, great find.

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Do you want me to link my original post, because I was the one who said Joran was spewing lies, based on the fact that he lied about not knowing Natalee, as if some other American family, besides the family of the American girl he left passed out on the beach, according to him, would show up at his house in the wee hours of the morning.

The fact that according to Charles Croes and Deepak, Joran wanted to help, wanted to know what he could do to help, which is another lie, because he couldn't even tell anyone the last place he had seen Natalee alive.

Oh, and of course, the elaborate lie of Natalee falling out of the car, refusing Joran's help, and was last seen being escorted by a man dressed in black with a walkie talkie at the Holiday Inn. JMO According to Charles Croes, Joran described knowing Natalee as the one he won money for at the casino.

That was not Natalee.

And the HI dropoff lie was the story the boys all agreed to, it wasn't just Joran.

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom
According to Charles Croes, Joran described knowing Natalee as the one he won money for at the casino.

That was not Natalee.

And the HI dropoff lie was the story the boys all agreed to, it wasn't just Joran.

Well because Charles Croes and Deepak seem to say the same thing about Joran wanting to help, there might be some credibility to that part of their story.

Doesn't matter if it was just Joran's lie or not. When he went along with the charade, it became his lie. JMO

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Well because Charles Croes and Deepak seem to say the same thing about Joran wanting to help, there might be some credibility to that part of their story.

Doesn't matter if it was just Joran's lie or not. When he went along with the charade, it became his lie. JMO
Deepak and Charles don't describe any chest pounding and arrogant attitude by Joran either.

They don't lend any credibility to Beth's story.

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Deepak and Charles don't describe any chest pounding and arrogant attitude by Joran either.

They don't lend any credibility to Beth's story.


I didn't realize we were talking about Beth's story. I don't think Beth ever said Joran wanted to help, although I didn't see every show Beth was on so maybe I missed it.

I'm referring to the fact that two people have claimed Joran said he wanted to help that night. Those two people don't include Beth. JMO

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by SukiJane



I didn't realize we were talking about Beth's story. I don't think Beth ever said Joran wanted to help, although I didn't see every show Beth was on so maybe I missed it.

I'm referring to the fact that two people have claimed Joran said he wanted to help that night. Those two people don't include Beth. JMO That's just it. Beth claims a whole different type of attitude from Joran, and it's not even close to what Deepak and Charles claim.

Just another lie of Beth's exposed.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Do you want me to link my original post, because I was the one who said Joran was spewing lies, based on the fact that he lied about not knowing Natalee, as if some other American family, besides the family of the American girl he left passed out on the beach, according to him, would show up at his house in the wee hours of the morning.

The fact that according to Charles Croes and Deepak, Joran wanted to help, wanted to know what he could do to help, which is another lie, because he couldn't even tell anyone the last place he had seen Natalee alive.

Oh, and of course, the elaborate lie of Natalee falling out of the car, refusing Joran's help, and was last seen being escorted by a man dressed in black with a walkie talkie at the Holiday Inn. JMO
If I thought your original post was accurate or truthful I wouldn't have asked for a link.

I know you and your friends think you have a flair for drama, but it's nothing more than a flair for exaggeration and misrepresentation.

Why don't you try just sticking to the facts?

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by feelings

were the security guards and others that were released as suspects awarded compensation for their wrongful detention? No? Anyway, I don´t think the fact that PVDS won in court means he is really cleared as a suspect. Just like I don´t believe those that didn´t get compensation for their detention were rightfully detained. I think PVDS probably just knows how the system works. Didn´t he work for the prosecution before? He knows how to play this game and win. How he coached his son and his friends is suspicious. IMO


Paulus is the only one who has been released as a suspect. Awards for damages don't apply to any of the others because they are still officially suspects in this case.

And yes, Paulus' win in court means he really is cleared as a suspect.

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by Narcissist15


But there have been cases in Aruba and the U.S. where there have been trials without bodies.......

so how does his statement in your context make any sense?

ETA....oh that's right.....he just knew that there would be no other evidence? :D


They had one on 48 Hours just last night. Hinton was tried and convicted of killing the Melendi girl(can't recall their first names) and her body has never been found. And Karin Janssen said they could prosecute cases without bodies in Aruba.

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


snip

They believe Beth lies because they believe Joran, even though he stated that he doesn't even believe himself. Beth hasn't lied. She believe J2K know exactly what happened to her daughter, and so do most others, including criminal profilers, lawyers, Pros, retired FBI members and TH's. The signed and unsigned statements/confession, which have surfaced, affirm Beth's beliefs.

Dropped Natalee off at a friends house for the trip to the airport.

Dropped Natalee off at the airport.

Deepak's car covered in blood.

Joran claimed he took Natalee to his house and had sex with her.

Those are just a few of Beth's lies. The first two have nothing whatsoever to do with Joran. The last one is nowhere in any of the signed statements like Beth claimed and we all know the car was not covered in blood. Now....why is the mother of a missing person lying???



They are convinced there is no evidence. So how can a reasonable discussion of CE take place on this board, with the same posters. They bashed the jury and Judge Delucchi, who has an impeccable reputation.

CE is interpretational. Just because you find something to be CE doesn't mean everyone else will. Maybe when you realize that there can be reasonable discussion. And maybe when you can concede to some of the issues that have been proven there can be reasonable discussion. Those were your words awhile back....there must be concessions for there to be a debate. You won't even concede to the FBI releasing the results on the blood or any other proven fact. But you demand others ceoncede to you. THAT is why there will never be reasonable discussion.


IMO

[No Nic]

FACT: Joran Van der Sloot LIED about where he and Natalee were on the NIGHT SHE DISAPPEARED. This is the ONLY FACT there is DIRECTLY involved in Natalee's disappearance. What others have done and have said since do not change that FACT.

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave


imo

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by No Nic
FACT: Joran Van der Sloot LIED about where he and Natalee were on the NIGHT SHE DISAPPEARED. This is the ONLY FACT there is DIRECTLY involved in Natalee's disappearance. What others have done and have said since do not change that FACT.

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave


imo


And there is no proof that lie affected the case. The beach was searched that night by the posse and then searched repeatedly by ALE including the waters surrounding it.


Again....why is the mother of a missing person lying as much as Beth is?

[No Nic]

FACT: Natalee's mother was not present when Natalee went missing.

FACT: Joran lied, we do not know for a FACT where he left Natalee.

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave

imo

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by nascarmom
:eek:

Jail house snitch. Wow Gregor, great find.
My guess is they had strong evidence of a minor crime against the two. Theft, selling drugs, possibly a scam revolving around drugs.

It's been established Aruba doesn't have plea bargaining, but plea bargaining is done by the prosecutor after someone has been charged.

For the police to turn a blind eye on proof of a minor crime to get a suspect to cooperate is not plea bargaining, and is a common occurrence everywhere.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by No Nic
FACT: Joran Van der Sloot LIED about where he and Natalee were on the NIGHT SHE DISAPPEARED. This is the ONLY FACT there is DIRECTLY involved in Natalee's disappearance. What others have done and have said since do not change that FACT.
<snip>
It is a fact that Joran lied, but it's a fact that has no bearing on what happened to Natalee. It can be established what the temperature was that night and what the phase of the moon was, but those facts have no bearing on what happened that night. There are hundreds of facts that are irrelevant.

Here's a fact that's meaningful. There is no evidence a crime was committed against Natalee.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by No Nic
FACT: Natalee's mother was not present when Natalee went missing.

FACT: Joran lied, we do not know for a FACT where he left Natalee.
<snip>
Two facts that by themselves mean absolutely nothing.

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Watership Down



And there is no proof that lie affected the case. The beach was searched that night by the posse and then searched repeatedly by ALE including the waters surrounding it.


Again....why is the mother of a missing person lying as much as Beth is?

Wow, so you think there would have still been a reenactment of the drop-off at the Holiday Inn if Joran would have told the police he left Natalee at the beach...

Interesting, I think maybe there would have been a reenactment of leaving Natalee at the beach if Joran would have told police that. Perhaps Joran could have told them how he removed his shoes and why, perhaps he could have pointed out where he saw all the people on the beach that night, perhaps he could have told them where Natalee was in proximity to him as he sheltered himself from the wind to call Deepak, and perhaps he could have showed them how he sat in Deepak's car voicing his concern for Natalee, as Satish just says screw her, let's go. Oh yeah, I believe there would have been many many things different to start this investigation. JMO

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Wow, so you think there would have still been a reenactment of the drop-off at the Holiday Inn if Joran would have told the police he left Natalee at the beach...

Interesting, I think maybe there would have been a reenactment of leaving Natalee at the beach if Joran would have told police that. Perhaps Joran could have told them how he removed his shoes and why, perhaps he could have pointed out where he saw all the people on the beach that night, perhaps he could have told them where Natalee was in proximity to him as he sheltered himself from the wind to call Deepak, and perhaps he could have showed them how he sat in Deepak's car voicing his concern for Natalee, as Satish just says screw her, let's go. Oh yeah, I believe there would have been many many things different to start this investigation. JMO
The only thing that would have made a difference is if Beth and the posse hadn't interfered, and let the authorities handle the investigation from the beginning.

[No Nic]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Wow, so you think there would have still been a reenactment of the drop-off at the Holiday Inn if Joran would have told the police he left Natalee at the beach...

Interesting, I think maybe there would have been a reenactment of leaving Natalee at the beach if Joran would have told police that. Perhaps Joran could have told them how he removed his shoes and why, perhaps he could have pointed out where he saw all the people on the beach that night, perhaps he could have told them where Natalee was in proximity to him as he sheltered himself from the wind to call Deepak, and perhaps he could have showed them how he sat in Deepak's car voicing his concern for Natalee, as Satish just says screw her, let's go. Oh yeah, I believe there would have been many many things different to start this investigation. JMO

I agree, Suki, the whole investigation could have taken a different route. Who knows, maybe JK2 would not have been detained if the truth were told from the beginning. Maybe they would not have the suspicion against them that they have now. Maybe ALE would have looked down a different road.

To say the lying changed nothing is not reasonable. imo

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

The only thing that would have made a difference is if Beth and the posse hadn't interfered, and let the authorities handle the investigation from the beginning.


Exactly. What would showing ALE where he left his shoes prove if the shoes weren't there? What would showing them where people were at one the beach prove? Those people wouldn't still be there over 24 hours later. Or where Satish parked the car? What would ANY of that prove?

[No Nic]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

The only thing that would have made a difference is if Beth and the posse hadn't interfered, and let the authorities handle the investigation from the beginning.

ROTFLMAO, poor, poor ALE, couldn't handle a distraught mother of a missing girl. They had no alternative but to do her bidding, follow her direction

Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds ??

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave

imo

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by No Nic


I agree, Suki, the whole investigation could have taken a different route. Who knows, maybe JK2 would not have been detained if the truth were told from the beginning. Maybe they would not have the suspicion against them that they have now. Maybe ALE would have looked down a different road.

To say the lying changed nothing is not reasonable. imo

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave


It could have taken a whole different route if Beth hadn't chosen to accost people at their homes at 3 am with a posse who lied and yelled at teenage boys. But my guess is you will never concede that.

[treetime]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

The only thing that would have made a difference is if Beth and the posse hadn't interfered, and let the authorities handle the investigation from the beginning.

how in the world would that have mattered ?

if Beth did not go to the house


in my opinion ALE would have done less than what they actually did :cool:

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Watership Down



Exactly. What would showing ALE where he left his shoes prove if the shoes weren't there? What would showing them where people were at one the beach prove? Those people wouldn't still be there over 24 hours later. Or where Satish parked the car? What would ANY of that prove?

All pieces of a puzzle. It amazes me what becomes important during an investigation. JMO

[treetime]

Originally posted by Watership Down



Exactly. What would showing ALE where he left his shoes prove if the shoes weren't there? What would showing them where people were at one the beach prove? Those people wouldn't still be there over 24 hours later. Or where Satish parked the car? What would ANY of that prove?

the SHOES might have been there

some people MIGHT still have been at the BEACH


all little things that show JORAN was never at the beach IMO:o :biggrin:

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by No Nic


I agree, Suki, the whole investigation could have taken a different route. Who knows, maybe JK2 would not have been detained if the truth were told from the beginning. Maybe they would not have the suspicion against them that they have now. Maybe ALE would have looked down a different road.

To say the lying changed nothing is not reasonable. imo

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave

Yep, and maybe there wouldn't have been a need for a pow wow the next day, and maybe there wouldn't have been a need to hire attorneys, and maybe just maybe Natalee could have been found. JMO

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by treetime


the SHOES might have been there

some people MIGHT still have been at the BEACH


all little things that show JORAN was never at the beach IMO:o :biggrin:



I live in a small town. Leave a decent pair of K-Swiss' anywhere and they won't last 24 hours. A beach in Aruba is no different I bet.

[No Nic]

Beth Originally posted by Watership Down



It could have taken a whole different route if Beth hadn't chosen to accost people at their homes at 3 am with a posse who lied and yelled at teenage boys. But my guess is you will never concede that.

Your guess would be right.........that should have had no bearing on the investigation that followed. ALE are supposed to be professionals and use the investigative skills and procedures that they have been trained to do. IF they let a mother from Alabama lead the investigation, they are even worse than "keystone Kops".

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave

imo

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by No Nic
Beth

Your guess would be right.........that should have had no bearing on the investigation that followed. ALE are supposed to be professionals and use the investigative skills and procedures that they have been trained to do. IF they let a mother from Alabama lead the investigation, they are even worse than "keystone Kops".

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave

imo

It seems to me, that from the outset, it was J2K who led the investigation, not Beth. It was at their direction, based upon the lies they told, that led to the security guards were arrested. It was J2K, who intentionally led this investigation in the wrong direction, in order to lead it away from them, who were the last known persons seen with Natalee, and especially from Joran, who was by his own admission, the last person with Natalee before she disappeared.

IMO

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


It seems to me, that from the outset, it was J2K who led the investigation, not Beth. It was at their direction, based upon the lies they told, that led to the security guards were arrested. It was J2K, who intentionally led this investigation in the wrong direction, in order to lead it away from them, who were the last known persons seen with Natalee, and especially from Joran, who was by his own admission, the last person with Natalee before she disappeared.

IMO The SGs were arrested because of a tip ALE received and their rep of harassing tourists.

J2K didn't lead the investigation anymore than Beth did. Just think, they wouldn't have even been arrested in the USA.

Joran is the last KNOWN to have been with Natalee before she vanished. And Beth quantifies that even further to say he is the last known MALE to have been with Natalee.

Still doesn't prove kidnap, rape and murder.

In fact, it doesn't prove anything :shrug:

[cassidy]

Originally posted by No Nic
Beth

Your guess would be right.........that should have had no bearing on the investigation that followed. ALE are supposed to be professionals and use the investigative skills and procedures that they have been trained to do. IF they let a mother from Alabama lead the investigation, they are even worse than "keystone Kops".

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave

imo

I'm quite sure there is a chapter in The Law Enforcement Handbook that would guide them through what to do if a group of angry foreigners (yes, Mrs Twitty and crew were foreigners in Aruba) and informs the local police, that not only do they know of a kidnapping, BUT they have already investigated and know who the perp happens to be. That scene, of course, plays out often all over the world and would be well annotated in the LE Handbook. My guess is they reacted in stunned disbelief and followed along to insure that no battles broke out.
Now you tell me, what LE agency ANYWHERE would take kindly to a group of people who waltz in, announce that a crime has been commited (of which the LE was not even aware) but not to worry, because WE (the foreigners) have already solved it and the only reason we ( the foreigners) are here is to get the LE to come with them and arrest the perp (because the crime has already been solved, remember?)? Can anyone honestly say that this could have been pulled off in the USA?

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by cassidy


I'm quite sure there is a chapter in The Law Enforcement Handbook that would guide them through what to do if a group of angry foreigners (yes, Mrs Twitty and crew were foreigners in Aruba) and informs the local police, that not only do they know of a kidnapping, BUT they have already investigated and know who the perp happens to be. That scene, of course, plays out often all over the world and would be well annotated in the LE Handbook. My guess is they reacted in stunned disbelief and followed along to insure that no battles broke out.
Now you tell me, what LE agency ANYWHERE would take kindly to a group of people who waltz in, announce that a crime has been commited (of which the LE was not even aware) but not to worry, because WE (the foreigners) have already solved it and the only reason we ( the foreigners) are here is to get the LE to come with them and arrest the perp (because the crime has already been solved, remember?)? Can anyone honestly say that this could have been pulled off in the USA?

but but but....how could Beth report anything to ALE the first night when it took her 36 hours to find the police and she lost valuable time trying to muddle thru all the levels of gvt trying to figure out the infrastructure

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by No Nic


ROTFLMAO, poor, poor ALE, couldn't handle a distraught mother of a missing girl. They had no alternative but to do her bidding, follow her direction

Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds ??
<snip>
It is ridiculous, but I'm surprised you admit it, since you're the one who said it.

[cassidy]

Originally posted by nascarmom


but but but....how could Beth report anything to ALE the first night when it took her 36 hours to find the police and she lost valuable time trying to muddle thru all the levels of gvt trying to figure out the infrastructure

That's irrelevant and not covered in the LE Handbook.

[dinojen]

Had to take leave from catching up on the thread here.. all those friggin blooming roses were playing havoc with my allergies today.... bad enough I had a box of kleenex right next to me before I even came here...

The way I see it is.. both sides have their opinions on what happened to Natalee... neither side is going to know the honest truth...because Beth says so.. doesn't make it 100% right.. just the same as Joran's lawyer's or Joran himself.. isn't...

You all can argue all you want about who is right and who is guilty.. until there is at least some evidence in this case.. I mean cold hard evidence...to which at this point there is NADA.. ZIP.. no one will be charged with a crime..

The only thing we know is.. Natalee Holloway left Carlos and Charlies' willingly with Joran and the Kalpoe brother's.. waving to her friends... that's it.. that's the only honest last thing known about Natalee... the rest is speculation, lies, recanted lies... and whatever else you want to call it...

But I guess we can all continue to the argue about non evidence.. makes the day go by fast...

Achoooooooooooooo... please no flowers... I'm running low on Puff's with Aloe...

[No Nic]

Originally posted by cassidy


I'm quite sure there is a chapter in The Law Enforcement Handbook that would guide them through what to do if a group of angry foreigners (yes, Mrs Twitty and crew were foreigners in Aruba) and informs the local police, that not only do they know of a kidnapping, BUT they have already investigated and know who the perp happens to be. That scene, of course, plays out often all over the world and would be well annotated in the LE Handbook. My guess is they reacted in stunned disbelief and followed along to insure that no battles broke out.
Now you tell me, what LE agency ANYWHERE would take kindly to a group of people who waltz in, announce that a crime has been commited (of which the LE was not even aware) but not to worry, because WE (the foreigners) have already solved it and the only reason we ( the foreigners) are here is to get the LE to come with them and arrest the perp (because the crime has already been solved, remember?)? Can anyone honestly say that this could have been pulled off in the USA?

In the US the Le probably would have taken charge of the investigation and not let the mother take over (as you all accuse). What would be so difficult about that?? What power you all give to this little woman from Alabama. LOL

Oh, I see, since this particular situation is not in any LE Handbook, then...golly, gee....how would ALE know what to do? Maybe admit they were at a loss, over their heads and ask for help? and not just someone to observe?

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave

imo

[Hey Paula]

ALE accompanied Beth to the VDS home. They were fully aware Natalee was missing.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


It seems to me, that from the outset, it was J2K who led the investigation, not Beth. It was at their direction, based upon the lies they told, that led to the security guards were arrested.
<snip>
You're here every day. Don't you read anyone's posts but your own?

I thought we discussed this the other night. Repeating nonsense over and over and over is not going to make it a fact.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by cassidy


I'm quite sure there is a chapter in The Law Enforcement Handbook that would guide them through what to do if a group of angry foreigners (yes, Mrs Twitty and crew were foreigners in Aruba) and informs the local police, that not only do they know of a kidnapping, BUT they have already investigated and know who the perp happens to be. That scene, of course, plays out often all over the world and would be well annotated in the LE Handbook. My guess is they reacted in stunned disbelief and followed along to insure that no battles broke out.
Now you tell me, what LE agency ANYWHERE would take kindly to a group of people who waltz in, announce that a crime has been commited (of which the LE was not even aware) but not to worry, because WE (the foreigners) have already solved it and the only reason we ( the foreigners) are here is to get the LE to come with them and arrest the perp (because the crime has already been solved, remember?)? Can anyone honestly say that this could have been pulled off in the USA?
My bet would be Beth told the police her underage daughter ran off with a local boy and all they wanted to do was talk her into coming home.

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


It seems to me, that from the outset, it was J2K who led the investigation, not Beth. It was at their direction, based upon the lies they told, that led to the security guards were arrested. It was J2K, who intentionally led this investigation in the wrong direction, in order to lead it away from them, who were the last known persons seen with Natalee, and especially from Joran, who was by his own admission, the last person with Natalee before she disappeared.

IMO

Paula, this is where we hit the point that I don't understand.

If we believe that Joran was the last known person to be with Natalee, and we know from the phone records his only call was to Deepak, and we know from the computer records at what time Deepak and Joran were at home and on their computers, how do you explain the disposal of a dead body?

There is no possible way that Joran, alone and on foot, killed Natalee and disposed of her body within the confines of the electronic time line.

:)

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Paula, this is where we hit the point that I don't understand.

If we believe that Joran was the last known person to be with Natalee, and we know from the phone records his only call was to Deepak, and we know from the computer records at what time Deepak and Joran were at home and on their computers, how do you explain the disposal of a dead body?

There is no possible way that Joran, alone and on foot, killed Natalee and disposed of her body within the confines of the electronic time line.

:)

Anyone can log onto a computer using someone else's password. There is no way to validate who is sitting in front of the screen.

How long does it take to throw a body into the sea?

[treetime]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Paula, this is where we hit the point that I don't understand.

If we believe that Joran was the last known person to be with Natalee, and we know from the phone records his only call was to Deepak, and we know from the computer records at what time Deepak and Joran were at home and on their computers, how do you explain the disposal of a dead body?

There is no possible way that Joran, alone and on foot, killed Natalee and disposed of her body within the confines of the electronic time line.

:)

i dont think many us of think JORAN did it by himself :D

[cassidy]

Originally posted by No Nic


In the US the Le probably would have taken charge of the investigation and not let the mother take over (as you all accuse). What would be so difficult about that?? What power you all give to this little woman from Alabama. LOL

Oh, I see, since this particular situation is not in any LE Handbook, then...golly, gee....how would ALE know what to do? Maybe admit they were at a loss, over their heads and ask for help? and not just someone to observe?

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave

imo

What part don't you understand? Mrs Twitty led the investigation BEFORE going to the police. Then informed the police that she had solved the crime and continues to do so any chance she gets. The police did go to square one and started investigating (remember the security guards and Guido, etc?). That did not make Mrs Twitty happy and she let the world know it. There are how many suspects? 10? At least 7 of them she has deemed irrelevant and pubically excused.
And FYI, the ALE did ask for help and received it.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Anyone can log onto a computer using someone else's password. There is no way to validate who is sitting in front of the screen.

How long does it take to throw a body into the sea?
So you're saying sometime earlier that day Joran and Deepak arranged for two other people to log on to their computers at some predetermined time?

[treetime]

Originally posted by Watership Down




I live in a small town. Leave a decent pair of K-Swiss' anywhere and they won't last 24 hours. A beach in Aruba is no different I bet.

size 19 is not that common :D :tongue:

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Anyone can log onto a computer using someone else's password. There is no way to validate who is sitting in front of the screen.

How long does it take to throw a body into the sea?

No to argue with you on this exact point.....

but just for future reference, and it's kind of interesting.....

http://www.physorg.com/news67710818.html

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by cassidy


I'm quite sure there is a chapter in The Law Enforcement Handbook that would guide them through what to do if a group of angry foreigners (yes, Mrs Twitty and crew were foreigners in Aruba) and informs the local police, that not only do they know of a kidnapping, BUT they have already investigated and know who the perp happens to be. That scene, of course, plays out often all over the world and would be well annotated in the LE Handbook. My guess is they reacted in stunned disbelief and followed along to insure that no battles broke out.
Now you tell me, what LE agency ANYWHERE would take kindly to a group of people who waltz in, announce that a crime has been commited (of which the LE was not even aware) but not to worry, because WE (the foreigners) have already solved it and the only reason we ( the foreigners) are here is to get the LE to come with them and arrest the perp (because the crime has already been solved, remember?)? Can anyone honestly say that this could have been pulled off in the USA?

Great post, cassidy!!!

JMO

[treetime]

i guess some people think BETH and family should have just
filled out a missing person report and then taken a FLIGHT home

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:flame mad: :flamemad: :flamemad:

that would have been real helpful

i think the investigation would have gone like this

POLICE "hey JORAN did you have anything to Do with the missing GIRL ?"


JORAN..."nope"

POLICE" well thats good enough for me lets go get some more FROSTED FLAKES"

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

My bet would be Beth told the police her underage daughter ran off with a local boy and all they wanted to do was talk her into coming home.

No doubt about it, Gregor ....

IMO

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by treetime
i guess some people think BETH and family should have just
filled out a missing person report and then taken a FLIGHT home

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:flame mad: :flamemad: :flamemad:

that would have been real helpful

i think the investigation would have gone like this

POLICE "hey JORAN did you have anything to Do with the missing GIRL ?"


JORAN..."nope"

POLICE" well thats good enough for me lets go get some more FROSTED FLAKES"

No....maybe filed a missing person report.....asked the MB students to cooperate with police and answer questions about what occurred on the island over the few days they were there.....such as the altercation at C&C's......and other contacts that may be questionable.

ETA....allowed ALE to examine photos and such taken by MB students........so many things that could have been very helpful.

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Anyone can log onto a computer using someone else's password. There is no way to validate who is sitting in front of the screen.

How long does it take to throw a body into the sea?

If a body is just thrown into the ocean from the shore, it's going to wash ashore within hours.

As far as who was on the computers, there is no reason to doubt it was indeed Deepak and Joran. The records show their IMs and what sites they visited, and I doubt that porn sites would have been visited to establish alibis.

:)

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by treetime


size 19 is not that common :D :tongue:

Wow you keep making his feet bigger and bigger.......

I'm not saying you are wrong......but I thought you first said 14....then 16....now 19....

Do you have a link to his shoe size.....I mean if anyone would, you probably do.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by Watership Down

I live in a small town. Leave a decent pair of K-Swiss' anywhere and they won't last 24 hours. A beach in Aruba is no different I bet.
Whenever I stay over at any beach area, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Puerto Rico and even Brighton Beach in England, I get up before sunrise to see the sun come up over the water. I've never been alone. There are always scavengers with their metal detectors picking up anything that looks like it has any value.

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Hey Paula
ALE accompanied Beth to the VDS home. They were fully aware Natalee was missing. Not according to Beth.

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by treetime


i dont think many us of think JORAN did it by himself :D

Then why do people continue to say Joran was the last known person to be with Natalee? If he was alone, there is no possible way he could have disposed of a body.

:)

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


If a body is just thrown into the ocean from the shore, it's going to wash ashore within hours.

As far as who was on the computers, there is no reason to doubt it was indeed Deepak and Joran. The records show their IMs and what sites they visited, and I doubt that porn sites would have been visited to establish alibis.

:)

Not if the body is thrown from the side of the Island, opposite the hotels, where the water is so shark infested that it is used as a disposal for restaurant refuse, etc. It is also so vioently turbulent that whatever is thrown into it, is pummelled and almost immediately taken out to sea.

Indeed, I believe the trio had the cunning to stage being at home, if they truly weren't. To have plotted as they did, from the get-go is proof of their cunningness.

IMO

[No Nic]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

It is ridiculous, but I'm surprised you admit it, since you're the one who said it.

It's plain to see nothing is going to change around here. No matter how many time FH20 asks, there are some posters who cannot/will not even try to be respectful to others.

imo

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Not if the body is thrown from the side of the Island, opposite the hotels, where the water is so shark infested that it is used as a disposal for restaurant refuse, etc. It is also so vioently turbulent that whatever is thrown into it, is almost immediately pummelled and taken out to sea.

Indeed, I believe the trio had the cunning to stage being at home, if they truly weren't. To have plotted as they did, from the get-go is proof of their cunningness.

IMO


But there is no evidence that such took place........

so there is no basis for your story.

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Not if the body is thrown from the side of the Island, opposite the hotels, where the water is so shark infested that it is used as a disposal for restaurant refuse, etc. It is also so vioently turbulent that whatever is thrown into it, is almost immediately pummelled and taken out to sea.

Indeed, I believe the trio had the cunning to stage being at home, if they truly weren't. To have plotted as they did, from the get-go is proof of their cunningness.

IMO
How did Joran transport a dead body,by foot, all the way across the island?

Plotted? How is making up a lie on the spur of a phone call 'plotted'?

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by No Nic


It's plain to see nothing is going to change around here. No matter how many time FH20 asks, there are some posters who cannot/will not even try to be respectful to others.

imo And one would think you would have learned by now how to be respectful.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Not if the body is thrown from the side of the Island, opposite the hotels, where the water is so shark infested that it is used as a disposal for restaurant refuse, etc. It is also so vioently turbulent that whatever is thrown into it, is almost immediately pummelled and taken out to sea.

Indeed, I believe the trio had the cunning to stage being at home, if they truly weren't. To have plotted as they did, from the get-go is proof of their cunningness.

IMO
So now we have three perpetrators and at least two accessories, none of whom have broken under questioning or left a shred of evidence.

If this is true I'll agree with one of the fantasies repeated on this board over and over.

They really must have done this a dozen or so times in the past to get so good at it.

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Narcissist15



But there is no evidence that such took place........

so there is no basis for your story. The term 'wild speculation' seems appropriate.

[treetime]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Then why do people continue to say Joran was the last known person to be with Natalee? If he was alone, there is no possible way he could have disposed of a body.

:)

because, the fact is that HE was the last KNOWN person to be with her.

he was alone with her, buried her, covered her up temporaily,
hid her body somewhere
TAKE YOUR PICK

and then and ONLY then did some others come to his aid to HELP, he did not even have to be there
when the body was disposed

simple, he was home when the DIRTY work was being done

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

So now we have three perpetrators and at least two accessories, none of whom have broken under questioning or left a shred of evidence.

If this is true I'll agree with one of the fantasies repeated on this board over and over.

They really must have done this a dozen or so times in the past to get so good at it.

Joran's been at it since he was 7, he's at the master criminal level now. He even has a PR firm hard at work.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by No Nic


It's plain to see nothing is going to change around here. No matter how many time FH20 asks, there are some posters who cannot/will not even try to be respectful to others.

imo
It's odd you would say this considering you tried to ridicule me.

Or are you special?

[cassidy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hey Paula


Not if the body is thrown from the side of the Island, opposite the hotels, where the water is so shark infested that it is used as a disposal for restaurant refuse, etc. It is also so vioently turbulent that whatever is thrown into it, is pummelled and almost immediately taken out to sea.

Indeed, I believe the trio had the cunning to stage being at home, if they truly weren't. To have plotted as they did, from the get-go is proof of their cunningness.

IMO [/QUOTOk. I've heard the stories about the sharks on one side of the island is true and that it is not true. Does anyone know for certain if there really is a shark infested end of the island used for hotel garbage?

[No Nic]

Originally posted by nascarmom
And one would think you would have learned by now how to be respectful.

Thats quite a hoot, coming from you. :D

imo

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by treetime


because, the fact is that HE was the last KNOWN person to be with her.

he was alone with her, buried her, covered her up temporaily,
hid her body somewhere
TAKE YOUR PICK

and then and ONLY then did some others come to his aid to HELP, he did not even have to be there
when the body was disposed

simple, he was home when the DIRTY work was being done

Why did Beth later say last known MALE?

Not that I think it means anything......odd statement don't you think?

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

So now we have three perpetrators and at least two accessories, none of whom have broken under questioning or left a shred of evidence.

If this is true I'll agree with one of the fantasies repeated on this board over and over.

They really must have done this a dozen or so times in the past to get so good at it.
Isn't that area shark infested BECAUSE they throw left over food there to attract the sharks in an effort to keep them away from the beaches?

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by No Nic


Thats quite a hoot, coming from you. :D

imo
Ah, another example of your display of respect toward others.

It must be great to be special.

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Not if the body is thrown from the side of the Island, opposite the hotels, where the water is so shark infested that it is used as a disposal for restaurant refuse, etc. It is also so vioently turbulent that whatever is thrown into it, is pummelled and almost immediately taken out to sea.

Indeed, I believe the trio had the cunning to stage being at home, if they truly weren't. To have plotted as they did, from the get-go is proof of their cunningness.

IMO

Deepak logged on to his computer a few minutes after 2 AM, they were last seen leaving C&Cs at about 1:20 AM. Do you believe they raped her, killed her and disposed of the body in 20 minutes?

:confused:

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by No Nic


Thats quite a hoot, coming from you. :D

imo Is this your idea of being respectful?

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Deepak logged on to his computer a few minutes after 2 AM, they were last seen leaving C&Cs at about 1:20 AM. Do you believe they raped her, killed her and disposed of the body in 20 minutes?

:confused: Not only that, but left zippo in the form of evidence, trace or otherwise.

But then again, Joran did spend 10 days cleaning Deepaks car with cleaning fluid from the headliner to the floor mats since it was dripping with blood.

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by treetime


because, the fact is that HE was the last KNOWN person to be with her.

he was alone with her, buried her, covered her up temporaily,
hid her body somewhere
TAKE YOUR PICK

and then and ONLY then did some others come to his aid to HELP, he did not even have to be there
when the body was disposed

simple, he was home when the DIRTY work was being done

Who? And how did he contact this mystery person? When did this person retrieve the body from the beach area? And what did the phantom person do with the body?

There is no evidence to support your speculation, none.

:)

[cassidy]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Isn't that area shark infested BECAUSE they throw left over food there to attract the sharks in an effort to keep them away from the beaches?

I asked a few posts up but it kinda got jumbled. Is there any truth to that at all? I have heard there is an area infested with sharks and that there isn't an area infested with sharks. Supposedly there is one end of the island that all the hotels dumb their garbage in to keep the sharks happy there? Does anyone know for absolute certainty that this area exsists? I've googled and come up with nothing to verify it either way. Anyone?

[No Nic]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Ah, another example of your display of respect toward others.

It must be great to be special.

One does get tired of it being directed at them all the time and feels the need to act in kind. What you call my disrespect is mild conpared to what goes on here by "you" (and you know who you are).

And you are correct, it is great to be special. :D

eta: I am done with you !

imo

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by Narcissist15
They keep saying that Beth's comments are irrelevant.....

well yes they are irrelevant......

they have no relevance to what occurred to Natalee......they are not relevant to the facts of the case.....whether she believes J2K are guilty or not.....

I absolutely agree that what Beth says has no relevance.....no matter how many lies she may tell. Since I don't know what happened to Natalee, I find it hard to determine what is relevant. If Natalee didn't return because she did not want Beth controlling her life, then I think everything about Beth is relevant.

Also, since Beth was not in Aruba, I think much of what she says is based on what the MB grads have told her. I think what the MB grads say is relevant. It is interesting when what Beth says doesn't agree with what Natalee's frieds have said.

What I find odd is the way relevance depends on the actions of others. Beth saying Joran punched Natalee is relevant because it shows Joran could not control his temper. Beth saying GVC punched Natalee is not relevant.:shrug:


MOO

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by cassidy


I asked a few posts up but it kinda got jumbled. Is there any truth to that at all? I have heard there is an area infested with sharks and that there isn't an area infested with sharks. Supposedly there is one end of the island that all the hotels dumb their garbage in to keep the sharks happy there? Does anyone know for absolute certainty that this area exsists? I've googled and come up with nothing to verify it either way. Anyone?

EXCERPT:

Swimmers should stay away from the island’s windward coast. Not only is it rough, but it’s also infested with sharks.

Vacation One Travel (http://vacation.onetravel.com/li_display.php?loc_id=1)

ETA: The North side of the Island is where the sharks are.

IIRC, Joran made a call from that side of the Island.

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by SukiJane


What makes you think that Paulus has any control over what Joran does or wants to do? I have also heard reports that Paulus told Joran he didn't have to talk to the family but it seems Joran chose to run his mouth spewing lies, sort of like when Joran decided to come to America and give his version of the truth against his lawyer and parent's wishes. JMO If Joran was guilty of something why would ne do that?

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Since I don't know what happened to Natalee, I find it hard to determine what is relevant. If Natalee didn't return because she did not want Beth controlling her life, then I think everything about Beth is relevant.

Also, since Beth was not in Aruba, I think much of what she says is based on what the MB grads have told her. I think what the MB grads say is relevant. It is interesting when what Beth says doesn't agree with what Natalee's frieds have said.

What I find odd is the way relevance depends on the actions of others. Beth saying Joran punched Natalee is relevant because it shows Joran could not control his temper. Beth saying GVC punched Natalee is not relevant.:shrug:


MOO

Well if what Beth says is relevant, then the fact that she's lied about things becomes relevant......because credibility comes into play when things are said that aren't supported by anything but Beth's words.....

My point was that if Beth lies are not relevant, then anything Beth says is not relevant.......because you can't separate the two.......they are all her words.

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by feelings

I think you missed the meaning of my post. That´s exactly what I said: They were not released as suspects. They are still suspects. Their detention has not been ruled wrongful. Does that mean it was rightful? IMO NOT. I am sorry feelings. I believe according to the Aruban system actions of the prosecuter are deemed rightful until a judge or the prosecuter decides otherwise.

MOO

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


EXCERPT:

Swimmers should stay away from the island’s windward coast. Not only is it rough, but it’s also infested with sharks.

Vacation One Travel (http://vacation.onetravel.com/li_display.php?loc_id=1)

ETA: The North side of the Island is where the sharks are.

IIRC, Joran made a call from that side of the Island.

I don't remember any mention of a call made from that area. The only call on the phone records during the time in question is the one from the beach area.

:confused:

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Who knows, but in my opinion those words direct quote or not would not have sounded so bad had Joran just told the truth in the beginning. Joran's lies, and his father's supposed quote just are not actions of innocent people in my opinion. JMO Suspects always look guilty to some.

MOO

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


EXCERPT:

Swimmers should stay away from the island’s windward coast. Not only is it rough, but it’s also infested with sharks.

Vacation One Travel (http://vacation.onetravel.com/li_display.php?loc_id=1)

ETA: The North side of the Island is where the sharks are.

IIRC, Joran made a call from that side of the Island.

IIRC...it's the east side of the island, not the north side........which is were the sharks are located.

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


All parties agree that when Beth's group showed up at the VDS home, Paulus called Joran and facilitated the meeting between Joran and the family.

PVDS didn't have any obligation to cooperate with Beth, he could have told her Joran was at a friends, he could have simply said he wasn't home, or he could have told her to go to hell, instead he responded to a desperate parent.

Those are not the actions of a father protecting a guilty son, they are the actions of a decent human being.

:) WOW!

Very nicely said. Thinking about it, that just might be what I would do. I think I would try to find out what was going on and the last thing would be to call my son home.

MOO

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by cassidy


I asked a few posts up but it kinda got jumbled. Is there any truth to that at all? I have heard there is an area infested with sharks and that there isn't an area infested with sharks. Supposedly there is one end of the island that all the hotels dumb their garbage in to keep the sharks happy there? Does anyone know for absolute certainty that this area exsists? I've googled and come up with nothing to verify it either way. Anyone? I've heard it's true and not true and a thing of the past but still done :shrug:

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by jantheman
hi..am intruding on this. for someone like me who DOES have sympathy for beth (and still believes joran is main suspect), her repetition of her beliefs that by now she knows are not fact..matter to me. In that, when she comes on as part of the coverage on greta ect...i tend to tune her out now. i understand her , and her anger and grief. But if i cannot trust what she has to say, i pay less attention to the case. and that seems counterproductive to what Beth wants, IE keeping her daughter's disappearance in the media...which keeps the pressure on. C[_] [_]Ditto

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Narcissist15


IIRC...it's the east side of the island, not the north side........which is were the sharks are located.

And it appears that I may be mistaken.

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


I don't remember any mention of a call made from that area. The only call on the phone records during the time in question is the one from the beach area.

:confused:


IIRC that was an old monkey rumor.

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
If Joran was guilty of something why would ne do that?

Talk against his parent's wishes here in the states?

Who really knows...maybe Joran is one of those people that lie so much and so often that he actually starts believing his lies. Maybe he was trying to gain support to sell more books in the future. Maybe he was trying to clear a way for a career here in sports. JMO

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


<snip>
They can believe whatever they choose, if they debate respectfully, without attacking those who disagree with them, and without constantly bashing the victim and her family.

IMO Bashing is in the eye of the beholder. Some see bashing everywhere they go. I have been in a thread where a great discussion was being held. Someone comes in and is upset at 5 pages of bashing, then the thread closes.

Some people just can't stand to see a good conversation if they don't agree.

MOO

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

No, but I'd still like to see a link that says he "ran his mouth spewing lies." I thought that was an opinion.

MOO

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


I don't remember any mention of a call made from that area. The only call on the phone records during the time in question is the one from the beach area.

:confused:

I recall it.

The lighthouse is on the North side of the Island. Joran, in his early statements, said they went to the lighthouse, but later changed his story. However, Deepak has always maintained they went to the lighthouse with Natalee, and hasn't changed his story.

IMO

[treetime]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Who? And how did he contact this mystery person? When did this person retrieve the body from the beach area? And what did the phantom person do with the body?

There is no evidence to support your speculation, none.

:)

people can easily make contact with other people and DO NOT have to be using PHONES, CELL PHONES, COMPUTERS, PAGERS


they simply go to their HOUSE and say i need some help

:D

which is what i think happened
here

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by nascarmom
I've heard it's true and not true and a thing of the past but still done :shrug:


I read somewhere, don't recall where, that they threw food in the ocean years ago but had stopped in recent years. It seems like I was reading something involving one of the hotels involved.

[treetime]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


All parties agree that when Beth's group showed up at the VDS home, Paulus called Joran and facilitated the meeting between Joran and the family.

PVDS didn't have any obligation to cooperate with Beth, he could have told her Joran was at a friends, he could have simply said he wasn't home, or he could have told her to go to hell, instead he responded to a desperate parent.

Those are not the actions of a father protecting a guilty son, they are the actions of a decent human being.


PAULUS had no IDEA what had transpired at that time

for all PAULUS knew,,, the boys had done a HARMLESS PRANK

:flamemad:

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Narcissist15


And it appears that I may be mistaken.

It appears I'm not mistaken......but I called what some may call the northside the eastside........

it's just want you consider the orientation of the map.

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


I recall it.

The lighthouse is on the North side of the Island. Joran, in his early statements, said they went to the lighthouse, but later changed his story. However, Deepak has always maintained they went to the lighthouse with Natalee, and hasn't changed his story.

IMO

Paula, I try very hard to avoid relying on biased statements, such as statements which come from only the suspects, or only from Beth. I have far greater faith in evidence that is either independent from both of those sources, or agree upon by both sources.

You mentioned a call from that area, that's what I was asking about.

:)

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by treetime


people can easily make contact with other people and DO NOT have to be using PHONES, CELL PHONES, COMPUTERS, PAGERS


they simply go to their HOUSE and say i need some help

:D

which is what i think happened
here

So your new theory is that Joran walked to someone's house to get help in disposing of a dead body?

;)

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by No Nic

<snip>
eta: I am done with you !
<snip>
I sincerely hope so.

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by treetime
Originally posted by Unperson1984


All parties agree that when Beth's group showed up at the VDS home, Paulus called Joran and facilitated the meeting between Joran and the family.

PVDS didn't have any obligation to cooperate with Beth, he could have told her Joran was at a friends, he could have simply said he wasn't home, or he could have told her to go to hell, instead he responded to a desperate parent.

Those are not the actions of a father protecting a guilty son, they are the actions of a decent human being.


PAULUS had no IDEA what had transpired at that time

for all PAULUS knew,,, the boys had done a HARMLESS PRANK

:flamemad:

So now you don't believe that Paulus was involved in disposing of the dead body?

;)

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
I thought that was an opinion.

MOO
"Ran his mouth spewing lies" is not an opinion. It is a phrase meant to demean and evoke a response.

One of the moderators already said adding IMO to a post intended to insult or bash does turn the offensive post into a legitimate opinion.

Try saying, "You're an idiot, IMO", to someone and see whether or not you hear from a moderator.

[Narcissist15]

I'm posting my opinion......the place where Aruba's hotels would dump the food waste was on the northside of the island (which some like myself call the eastside) off the cliffs.....

and we discussed this before about the Natural Bridge........and where the cliffs are located.

It is my opinion and I believe this to be correct.

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


So now you don't believe that Paulus was involved in disposing of the dead body?

;)

It is a complicated web that one has to spin to involve all that they claim are responsible.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by Narcissist15


It is a complicated web that one has to spin to involve all that they claim are responsible.
If you believe everyone on the island was involved in the crime, whatever that crime might be, or in the cover up, anything is possible.

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Paula, I try very hard to avoid relying on biased statements, such as statements which come from only the suspects, or only from Beth. I have far greater faith in evidence that is either independent from both of those sources, or agree upon by both sources.

You mentioned a call from that area, that's what I was asking about.

:)

I can agree somewhat with this. I try not to rely on Beth's statements too much, not because I don't trust her, but because anything brought to this board from Beth's mouth is always subject to such ridicule.

I really found Bacchus' speech very interesting, he is one of the few unbiased people that has spoken with any ALE officials, and although he thinks ALE has tried to solve this case, he also thinks they were up against a very sophisticated group of people. People being plural leads me to believe that this may go beyond J2k. So if you're just looking at electronic records as the only evidence there is in this case, then I would say we've not seen all the records of all the people that may be involved. JMO

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Narcissist15
I'm posting my opinion......the place where Aruba's hotel would dump the food waste was on the northside of the island (which some like myself call the eastside) off the cliffs.....

and we discussed this before about the Natural Bridge........and where the cliffs are located.

It is my opinion and I believe this to be correct.

I think it's a moot point, because I don't believe J2K had time to drive opposite side of the island and return in time for Deepak to log on to his computer a little after 2 AM.

:)

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


I think it's a moot point, because I don't believe J2K had time to drive opposite side of the island and return in time for Deepak to log on to his computer a little after 2 AM.

:)

I agree. ;)

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by nascarmom
According to Charles Croes, Joran described knowing Natalee as the one he won money for at the casino.

That was not Natalee.

And the HI dropoff lie was the story the boys all agreed to, it wasn't just Joran. Too many conflicting reports in many cases all filtered through Beth. What we are to believe from Beth is what Beth has decided to believe based on her evaluation.

MOO

[treetime]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


So now you don't believe that Paulus was involved in disposing of the dead body?

;)

he could have

or he had help

or joran had help

or they both had help

:D

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by SukiJane



I didn't realize we were talking about Beth's story. I don't think Beth ever said Joran wanted to help, although I didn't see every show Beth was on so maybe I missed it.

I'm referring to the fact that two people have claimed Joran said he wanted to help that night. Those two people don't include Beth. JMO Didn't Beth say, Joran said, what do you want me to do?

MOO

[treetime]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Deepak logged on to his computer a few minutes after 2 AM, they were last seen leaving C&Cs at about 1:20 AM. Do you believe they raped her, killed her and disposed of the body in 20 minutes?

:confused:

maybe DEEPAK went home

then went back to KELP joran :D

did DEEPAK go to school the next DAY ??

hmmmm...so
hide the body temporarily that night and take care of later

around 5 AM :D

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Narcissist15


It is a complicated web that one has to spin to involve all that they claim are responsible.

Absolutely! It requires making up scenarios with no basis in fact or evidence.

Example, many posters say that there is no way of knowing who was actually on the computers, which is true. But they offer no explanation as to how or when J2K contacted these friends and asked them to go to their respective homes and log on to their computers as an alibi.

I have no problem with speculation, but it has to fit with known facts.

:)

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by Narcissist15


It is a complicated web that one has to spin to involve all that they claim are responsible.

It surely is, Narc. I'm exhausted READING it .... lol :eek:

JMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Didn't Beth say, Joran said, what do you want me to do?

MOO

I think so, as he slapped his chest. My post was not about that, it was about two people there that night, charles croes and deepak, that says Joran was trying to help, wanting to know what he could do to help. JMO

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by No Nic
FACT: Natalee's mother was not present when Natalee went missing.

<snip>

imo Who was she with?

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


EXCERPT:

Swimmers should stay away from the island’s windward coast. Not only is it rough, but it’s also infested with sharks.

Vacation One Travel (http://vacation.onetravel.com/li_display.php?loc_id=1)

ETA: The North side of the Island is where the sharks are.

IIRC, Joran made a call from that side of the Island.

From the link:

Top Destinations:

1) Nevada - Las Vegas
2) Mexico - Cancun
3) Florida - Orlando
4) Mexico - Mayan Riviera
5) New York - New York City
6) Aruba


So much for the 'boycott'

Joran did not make a phone call from that side of the island the night Natalee vanished.

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by treetime


he could have

or he had help

or joran had help

or they both had help

:D

Hey .... tree .... Pretty soon you're gonna HIT on it !!!! lol I think you've had 5,892 theories now .... ((You know I'm teasing you)) ;)

JMO

[cassidy]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


EXCERPT:

Swimmers should stay away from the island’s windward coast. Not only is it rough, but it’s also infested with sharks.

Vacation One Travel (http://vacation.onetravel.com/li_display.php?loc_id=1)

ETA: The North side of the Island is where the sharks are.

IIRC, Joran made a call from that side of the Island.

Thank you.

[treetime]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Hey .... tree .... Pretty soon you're gonna HIT on it !!!! lol I think you've had 5,892 theories now .... ((You know I'm teasing you)) ;)

JMO

yea, i have had a couple theories :tongue:

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by nascarmom

<snip>
Joran did not make a phone call from that side of the island the night Natalee vanished.
Do you know for a fact the phone company didn't alter the records to protect him.

He runs the island, you know.

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Do you know for a fact the phone company didn't alter the records to protect him.

He runs the island, you know.

:eek: Gregor .... Don't even SUGGEST that. It will be the latest theory !!!

ETA .... Could THEY be in on the conspiracy too???

JMO

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Narcissist15
I'm posting my opinion......the place where Aruba's hotels would dump the food waste was on the northside of the island (which some like myself call the eastside) off the cliffs.....

and we discussed this before about the Natural Bridge........and where the cliffs are located.

It is my opinion and I believe this to be correct.
The Natural Bridge collapsed last fall :(

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


It seems to me, that from the outset, it was J2K who led the investigation, not Beth. It was at their direction, based upon the lies they told, that led to the security guards were arrested. It was J2K, who intentionally led this investigation in the wrong direction, in order to lead it away from them, who were the last known persons seen with Natalee, and especially from Joran, who was by his own admission, the last person with Natalee before she disappeared.

IMO Joran is a mastermind and only 17 yo. Who knows what the future holds but world domination is within his reach.

MOO

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by cassidy


I'm quite sure there is a chapter in The Law Enforcement Handbook that would guide them through what to do if a group of angry foreigners (yes, Mrs Twitty and crew were foreigners in Aruba) and informs the local police, that not only do they know of a kidnapping, BUT they have already investigated and know who the perp happens to be. That scene, of course, plays out often all over the world and would be well annotated in the LE Handbook. My guess is they reacted in stunned disbelief and followed along to insure that no battles broke out.
Now you tell me, what LE agency ANYWHERE would take kindly to a group of people who waltz in, announce that a crime has been commited (of which the LE was not even aware) but not to worry, because WE (the foreigners) have already solved it and the only reason we ( the foreigners) are here is to get the LE to come with them and arrest the perp (because the crime has already been solved, remember?)? Can anyone honestly say that this could have been pulled off in the USA? Fortunately, Natalee was not found injured or her mother might have performed surgery on the MedJet.

MOO

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


:eek: Gregor .... Don't even SUGGEST that. It will be the latest theory !!!

JMO
I said, if you believe everyone on the island is involved in a crime, or covering up the crime, anything is possible.

The thing I'd like to know is, if there wasn't a crime, what is everybody covering up?

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Do you know for a fact the phone company didn't alter the records to protect him.

He runs the island, you know. Now that you mention it, the person he retained to dispose of the hastily hidden body also altered the cell phone tower signals by the stratigic placment of a TeePee that was later trampled by buffalo.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Now that you mention it, the person he retained to dispose of the hastily hidden body also altered the cell phone tower signals by the stratigic placment of a TeePee that was later trampled by buffalo.
If you arrange buffalo trampling are you living lawlessly off the land?

[Luke Davis]

Originally posted by Narcissist15


Wow you keep making his feet bigger and bigger.......

I'm not saying you are wrong......but I thought you first said 14....then 16....now 19....

Do you have a link to his shoe size.....I mean if anyone would, you probably do. Perhaps treetime is confusing shoe size with nose size. :hat:

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Perhaps treetime is confusing shoe size with nose size. :hat:
Whose nose?

[Hey Paula]

Originally posted by cassidy


Thank you.

You're welcome.

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

If you arrange buffalo trampling are you living lawlessly off the land? Only if it's properly documented in the journal as such.

[Unperson1984]

O/T...Arrest and partial confession in the Jon Benet Ramsey case.

I wish Patsy was still living to finally see justice for her daughter.

:(

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by Unperson1984
O/T...Arrest and partial confession in the Jon Benet Ramsey case.

I wish Patsy was still living to finally see justice for her daughter.

:( I heard about the arrest, but did you hear what a "partial confession" is?

[court~critic1®]

Am I the only one that wonders just who phoned BHT about Natalee missing ,and what they said. I don't mean BHTs story, I would like the truth. Or will we ever really know the truth?

[Unperson1984]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back
I heard about the arrest, but did you hear what a "partial confession" is?

It is reported that the suspect has admitted to aspects of the crime which were withheld from the public. A Bolder DA has been in Thailand for several days questioning the person.

:)

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by court~critic1®
Am I the only one that wonders just who phoned BHT about Natalee missing ,and what they said. I don't mean BHTs story, I would like the truth. Or will we ever really know the truth? Maybe when they close the investigation file next June 9th......

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Maybe when they close the investigation file next June 9th......


thank you, you may be right. I don't think they said she was kidnapped or other wise the posters that BHT had printed, sure wouldn't have been like they were, imoo for a run-away.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Maybe when they close the investigation file next June 9th......
I could be wrong, but I thought I heard no information would be released unless there was a failed prosecution.

ETA: Of course if they never declare a crime was committed and declare her a runaway I think they'd release the file.

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard no information would be released unless there was a failed prosecution.

ETA: Of course if they never declare a crime was committed and declare her a runaway I think they'd release the file.
The way I understand it, Beth filed papers that will allow her to get the investigation file after the investigation is closed or there is a prosecution.

But I could be wrong.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by nascarmom

The way I understand it, Beth filed papers that will allow her to get the investigation file after the investigation is closed or there is a prosecution.

But I could be wrong.
But that's my point. After two years Joran will no longer be a suspect, but I imagine they will keep the case open even if there's not much of an active investigation.

I don't know about Aruba's privacy laws, but when a suspect is being investigated the vast majority of what's discovered has nothing to do with the crime. I just don't see that stuff being made public.

[nascarmom]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

But that's my point. After two years Joran will no longer be a suspect, but I imagine they will keep the case open even if there's not much of an active investigation.

I don't know about Aruba's privacy laws, but when a suspect is being investigated the vast majority of what's discovered has nothing to do with the crime. I just don't see that stuff being made public. I don't think the Prosecutor makes it public information, but releases it to 'harmed parties' that have filed for the information. But I know if it got into Beth's hands, the whitewashed file would be put in the public arena.

I agree with you, I think the CASE has to be closed before any files are released, not the investigation of specific suspects.

I'll see if I can find what I read about it because I don't remember the details anymore. LOL

[paralegallin]

Originally posted by No Nic
FACT: Natalee's mother was not present when Natalee went missing.

FACT: Joran lied, we do not know for a FACT where he left Natalee.

:rose: Natalee :rose: Beth :rose: Dave

imo

Just to toss out a theory which will get me slammed big and bad I am sure, but it is always a possibility.

Just because a parent is not at the actual locale when a child ends up missing or dead, does not mean the parent is not involved.

Not saying this is the case, just saying to say there were not present when they wend missing, doesn't mean anything in some situations.

I always wondered a bit about the ex dea agent friend that just happened to be down in Aruba at the same time as this all went down.

But I tend to think more to the negative side and see the worst case scenerio than the the most positive

Just a theory, not even saying it is mine..but go ahead..bash away

MOO

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by paralegallin


Just to toss out a theory which will get me slammed big and bad I am sure, but it is always a possibility.

Just because a parent is not at the actual locale when a child ends up missing or dead, does not mean the parent is not involved.
<snip>
Since I believe Natalee ran off, I have to believe Beth is somehow involved, and it doesn't necessarily have to do with an unhappy home life or abuse of any kind.

[fairmaiden]

Originally posted by Unperson1984
O/T...Arrest and partial confession in the Jon Benet Ramsey case.

I wish Patsy was still living to finally see justice for her daughter.

:(

O/T also, Un. I was watching Catherine Crier, where they covered this extensively. From what I could gather, this arrest has been in the works for a while .... Patsy was aware of it. She did have that satisfaction before she died.

Sorry for the O/T FH20 ....

JMO

[Narcissist15]

Originally posted by paralegallin


Just to toss out a theory which will get me slammed big and bad I am sure, but it is always a possibility.

Just because a parent is not at the actual locale when a child ends up missing or dead, does not mean the parent is not involved.

Not saying this is the case, just saying to say there were not present when they wend missing, doesn't mean anything in some situations.

I always wondered a bit about the ex dea agent friend that just happened to be down in Aruba at the same time as this all went down.

But I tend to think more to the negative side and see the worst case scenerio than the the most positive

Just a theory, not even saying it is mine..but go ahead..bash away

MOO

Weirder things have happened.......I think you would agree that there isn't evidence to support such though......of course many of the theories seem to not have much evidence to support them......so it's all good.

I'm in such a surreal mood.....I prayed for this day.....the happiness and sadness with these lastest reports.....Truly an incredible day.

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by nascarmom
I don't think the Prosecutor makes it public information, but releases it to 'harmed parties' that have filed for the information. But I know if it got into Beth's hands, the whitewashed file would be put in the public arena.

I agree with you, I think the CASE has to be closed before any files are released, not the investigation of specific suspects.

I'll see if I can find what I read about it because I don't remember the details anymore. LOL
My understanding is that a harmed party can petition a particular court to bring forth a prosecution, but it's that court who has access to the files and determines whether or not the criminal court should prosecute anyone based on what's in the investigation file.

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Since I believe Natalee ran off, I have to believe Beth is somehow involved, and it doesn't necessarily have to do with an unhappy home life or abuse of any kind.



OK, I have to be the one to ask this. If those were not the reason then what is the reason, do you think?
TIA

[Gregor's Back]

Originally posted by court~critic1®


OK, I have to be the one to ask this. If those were not the reason then what is the reason, do you think?
TIA
I don't have time to go into it now, but I think there's a reason why two individuals involved in money laundering, and a bank involved in money laundering are all involved in this case. It's just too much of a coincidence.

In short, I think there was a scam that involved Natalee and she took off because she thought that was the only way she could keep from being involved.

I guess I'll have a lot of heat to take when I come back later.

[Watership Down]

Originally posted by paralegallin


Just to toss out a theory which will get me slammed big and bad I am sure, but it is always a possibility.

Just because a parent is not at the actual locale when a child ends up missing or dead, does not mean the parent is not involved.

Not saying this is the case, just saying to say there were not present when they wend missing, doesn't mean anything in some situations.

I always wondered a bit about the ex dea agent friend that just happened to be down in Aruba at the same time as this all went down.

But I tend to think more to the negative side and see the worst case scenerio than the the most positive

Just a theory, not even saying it is mine..but go ahead..bash away

MOO


They had a case on CTV recently. The woman was convicted of killing her husband. She claimed she was in another state and IIRC had a partial alibi set up to show she was there. So just saying someone wasn't in Aruba does not mean it is true at all.

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

I don't have time to go into it now, but I think there's a reason why two individuals involved in money laundering, and a bank involved in money laundering are all involved in this case. It's just too much of a coincidence.

In short, I think there was a scam that involved Natalee and she took off because she thought that was the only way she could keep from being involved.

I guess I'll have a lot of heat to take when I come back later.


WOW! that is interesting. Thanks. Sure is a thought. moo

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Watership Down



They had a case on CTV recently. The woman was convicted of killing her husband. She claimed she was in another state and IIRC had a partial alibi set up to show she was there. So just saying someone wasn't in Aruba does not mean it is true at all.


I remember that one. They lived in TX. around Houston. That was one interesting case. moo