old Discussion 7/30-8/9/06

[julianella]

Thanks FW.

Good morning everyone, any new news over the weekend?

[peg54]

Nothing as far as I know, I like just one thread, makes it easier, without jumping back and forth.

peg

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT:
<snip>
Now today people, tourists, many of them spread out around this island and they put up 400 posters announcing that reward. We also found out police have had a tip line in place for some time. They tell us that they are still getting some tips and information on that. But on this island it is not customary or procedural for them to also have a reward. So this new tip line that Beth Holloway Twitty created will be in conjunction with her new reward, and she's really hoping that this helps.
<snip>
KOSINSKI: Now we've seen in our country, many times a reward is what brings people out. The Dutch here, the Dutch authorities on Aruba just don't feel that that is something they want to get into. But here, Beth Holloway Twitty and the family of Natalee feel that that could bring some information out.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8666428/

Does anyone have any more info on why it's not customary or procedural to have a tip line AND a reward and why Dutch authorities don't want to get into rewards for info?

Perhaps to keep the kooks and false info at bay?

Had it not been for the reward, would the false witnesses to the pond siting and landfill body dumping and frozen condoms have come forward? :shrug:

I think that is a good question. Do they not have a reward, or do they just not announce it?

I think unfortunatley, any case with a reward may bring out good tip, but on the negative side, it does bring out some shady characters...

imo

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Great question, nm. This is what further reinforces my opinion regarding there not being any evidence. One would think, with all the $$$$$ out there .... it would have persuaded someone to give "credible" information, if they had it.

JMO

This line of reasoning points to the fact that Natalee no longer existed after leaving CnC's with J2k. JMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom
No, this line of reasoning points to the fact that there isn't an island wide conspiracy and coverup to protect the son of a judge in training because everyone knows money talks.


It also says that not one person has come forward for the reward with credible information that they saw Natalee after she left CnC's with J2K. JMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom

The reward wasn't for a siting of Natalee :confused:

Wasn't there a reward for information leading to her safe return?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


I'm trying to think back to just how many rewards there were .... I believe there were a few.

Going back to your first post though .... how DO you reach that conclusion, that no credible information leads to the fact she didn't "exist" ((using your word)) after leaving C&C's??

JMO

There is no evidence of anything, no crime, no runaway, no drowning, no nothing. It all stops with J2K. JMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down



There wouldn't be evidence of a runaway especially if she got on a boat that didn't belong to anyone in Aruba.

How do you really believe a girl who was drunk successfully ran away? With whom did she run with?? Are there others missing?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


But that's where I run into trouble, Suki. You're right .... by all accounts, there is no evidence of anything .... certainly, no crime, like you stated. I don't think it DOES necessarily have to stop with J2K. It's convenient for you to think that .... because you don't believe he left her on the beach. At least, I assume that. But, if I believe he left her on the beach, and something happened to her afterwards .... then it doesn't stop with J2K.

JMO


Even if I did believe he left her on the beach, there is still no evidence that Natalee went any farther than where Joran claims he left her. Not one shred of evidence, not one person to come forward claiming they saw her. Absolutely Nothing. Anyway we look at it, we're all making leaps here, based on absolutely no evidence of anything. JMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Others??

Other / Others no difference, is there any one missing that disappeared at the same time as Natalee?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Are they master criminals able to pull off the perfect murder and body disposal in the very tight timeline?

I don't think so.

Who says it was perfect? With connections, and a poor investigation, lies, lies, and more lies, which then the Judge deems you not trustworthy, therefore you're free to go. Who knows?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom

And along with that is absolutely no evidence J2K harmed Natalee in any way, shape or form.

How can anyone reject one senario and cite lack of evidence and accept another senario with the same lack of evidence?

Joran is a liar, you know that, I know that, everybody knows that. I cannot base a scenario on what a liar has to say, though I'm sure there are some facts in his story, we just don't know what is truth and what is not. The liar's story is not evidence of anything, and the liar cannot be trusted. JMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom

And along with that is absolutely no evidence J2K harmed Natalee in any way, shape or form.

How can anyone reject one senario and cite lack of evidence and accept another senario with the same lack of evidence?

Is there really any "hard" evidence Natalee was ever on the beach with Joran?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom


Perfect crime = no evidence leading back to the perp

What connections?

It wasn't a poor investigation.

The judge deems you not trustworthy? When did the judge give a statement? Joran was released after being held the MAXIMUM time allowable under the law - there was no evidence to support a charge!

If you think it wasn't a poor investigation, then I'm sure you have an answer to why no one seems to know what happened to Natalee. JMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


I would have no idea, julia. I'm not sure I get your meaning.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility Natalee might have been communicating with someone BEFORE she left for Aruba. Could she have voluntarily left with THAT person, for example??

JMO

What person. In order for there to be another person then they would have to be missing too...so who? Are there any reporting of another missing person?

If not thene how can we assume she left with anyone at all?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE



Beth is a LIAR and can't be trusted! moo

Good, then don't trust her, no skin off my back!

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE



Beth is a LIAR and can't be trusted! moo

Difference is Beth was not the last known to be with Natalee, nor is she a suspect, nor was she any where near Aruba at the time of the disappearance... but can't really say the same about the suspects! imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Is there evidence he was elsewhere?

In Deepaks car!

So is there evidence she was actually on that beach?

Anything concrete?

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


julia .... Why would this person have to be "missing"??

JMO

Well he and Natalee surly cannot be walking around together, and living a normal life. And surly this person would have a family who would know all about Natalee being missing, and would know that she is living in harmony with this mystery person!

And while we are at it is there any hard evidence Natalee was conversing in a romatic manner with anyone? If so who?

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Do you have proof to back up the above statements?

Sure there are hundreds of links, just use google! It will tell you where Beth was vacationing..IN THE US, it will tell you that NAtalee arrived fine in Aruba yet, after leaving with Joran it seems as though no one seen her again!

What proof do you need. beth was not in Aruba, she was no where near Aruba, yet....the suspects were so their lies are significate!

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Who is disputing she was in Deepak's car?

JVDS: (paraphrased) " I left her on the beach"

Can't get anymore concrete than that! moo


hmm well he also said he dropped her off at the HI, and we all know how concrete that was!

So I am talking HARD PHYSICAL evidence...is there any? His shoes? Her flip flops? Clothing, something to actually show she was there? Other then the word of a suspect who has lied more then once?

I mean if we can only go by facts and evidence, then the words of a liar is surly not what one can hall hard concrete evidence or fact!

IMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom

No, I know Joran told 3 lies.

Electronic evidence supports his story and he is not the only liar in this case as everybody knows.

I'll go with the 3 lies, although truthfully we don't know how many lies he's told. Three lies is three lies too many in a police investigation.

Looking forward to seeing the electronic evidence that supports his story.

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Beth lies!moo
\
I see your adgenda here, I hope FW does also!

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


It's the only thing there is! moo

Or do you have anything that says otherwise?

So then you agree we cannot say 100 percent that they were on the beach!

She is no where to be found, no one has came forward to see them there, no one can forward noticing any odd behaviors that night, meaning if someone else came along and snatched Natalee up. No body floating in the water from a drowning.

I mean is there anything at all to support that Natalee was anywhere but in Deepaks car?

IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Yep, the fact that Joran's statement cannot be proven false.

And he even has electronic evidence to back his story :)

What electronic evidence? A tower stateing he was in the Area of the beach? There are other things in that area too, and that electronic evidence supports the entire hour Joran and Natalee spent on the beach?

Nah I don't think so.

See just as you feel we have no evidence to assume Joran did anything other then leave Natalee on the beach, you have no evidence Natalee was ever at the beach!

I have little tome now, but tomm, I will look up the research on the cell call towers, and show there are many things in that area, so for all we know they could have been there!

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


**EXAMPLE** .... **EXAMPLE** ((Certainly not fact)).

Let's say Natalee was corresponding with some "blue-eyed Dutch boy", which has been a RUMOR in this case. I wouldn't know if there was any evidence of that .... THAT would be on Natalee's computer. Let's say she MET this guy, while she was in Aruba .... and made a decision to leave with him. Could she "hide" from the world for an extended period of time .... could she perhaps disguise herself?? I grant you, it's unlikely, julia .... but certainly NOT impossible. People have certainly disappeared for extended periods of time .... for YEARS, in fact.

Now I can do something YOU tend to do sometimes .... While we are at it, is there any hard evidence Natalee WASN'T communicating with someone??

JMO

And you don't think that something like that would have came out? You don't think Joe T would have ate that up? There is nothing at all that points to a blue eyed dutch unless its Koen, who ran with Family shortly after this whole thing started, and HE does have a boat, or GVC, who we already know Natalee shot down!

imo

Hard evidence that Natalee was NOT communicating with someone is the fact that she only hung aroung with the MB group. She was not out romancing at night after night with a local boy, she left ONE night with Joran and BAM!

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Only Joran's statement.......I will repeat that is all there is!

You can't show me evidence they were not on the beach!

No body, no missing shoes, no clothing, no jewlery? Nothing there is not one shred of evidence that Natalee was ever on that beahc. Only Jorans word, and well he gave his word that she was at the HI too, and if it were not for cameras, that story would have worked. How convient the beach area he went to did not have cameras, no witnesses, yet there are things missing (reportedly) from the huts....

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Guido Wever.

MOO

He's missing? He's blond hair blue eyes? Isn't he the one who doesn't like woman?

And didn't he play Tennis with Joran the very next day?

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom


Beth believes it and cited it in her civil suit filing, if you feel it's unreliable you need to send your research to her and her attorney.

Is there proof she wasn't on the beach? No. You want proofs and absolutes to prove innocence but will accept no evidence of a crime to indicate Joran is not guilty. Makes no sense.

Well I am here talking now you! YOu want evidence, well so do I!

imo

[ebnrsg1]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Guido Wever made reservations and bought a ticket to Holland a month before Natalee went missing. When Natalee went missing Guido left.

MOO
Luke this has caused me to wonder too. Of course if it were a planned trip, he would have bought the ticket early so as not to cause suspicion.
It would be good if some day we were to find Natalee in Holland and find that she chose to relocate with GW or some other person. Of course it seems beyond the realm of possiblity that she could have not been found by now if that is the case but just recently there have been several people found who went missing years and years ago. One I think was even living in the same town. Posters have commented that they think Natalee looks much different in the casual shots than in the formal one so I think she could maybe change her looks so as not to be recognized if she was trying to do so. Some people really look different with just a change in the style of makeup or hair style. One that comes to mind is the pictures of Jennifer Knesse (spelling not sure). I do not think she looked like the same person in many of the photos that were shown.
Hopefully Natalee is living well and will surface at some period. At least it would be a wonderful outcome if she did

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by Laurus


It's when they insist on lying about the little things....that makes it look like a surveyors field, lol.

The bags were packed in her room
The passport was right there!! All by itself!! The whole time!!!
I hugged Natalee goodbye at the airport


What is the point of these lies?

And the camera which could possibly show her last moments and who she was with, oh we'll just take that, thank you very much


IMO

That's just it Laurus.

You keep trying to dig up why Beth lies and what her motivation is when (if she does lie) maybe there is no mysterious reason.

Maybe she exaggerates - maybe she distorts the truth - maybe she changes her mind from one day to the next -

The fact is that it doesn't matter except as it relates to posters who are obsessed with her. It has nothing, nada, zip to do with her daughter's disappearance.


moo

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by forensicpsy

That's just it Laurus.

You keep trying to dig up why Beth lies and what her motivation is when (if she does lie) maybe there is no mysterious reason.

Maybe she exaggerates - maybe she distorts the truth - maybe she changes her mind from one day to the next -

The fact is that it doesn't matter except as it relates to posters who are obsessed with her. It has nothing, nada, zip to do with her daughter's disappearance.


moo

Yes, the minutiae of this case and all the unanswered questions will drive anyone nuts. This is why I am eager for this civil suit to get to trial. Fact and Fiction will be sorted out and we'll have something more concrete to discuss.

Bottom line is what you posted, Forensic: Beth has nothing to do with her daughter's disappearance. She's just trying to find answers and desperately trying to keep her daughter's case alive - because she doesn't think her daughter is..........alive.

IMO.

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Laurus

I've never even speculated that Mrs. Twitty physically made Natalee disappear, or had her kidnapped, none of that. But the possibility remains that she could have caused her ADULT daughters disappearance by making Natalee want to get away, maybe for a short time that grew into a long time with the awkwardness of a possible reappearance.

IMO

Yes, I know you've never blamed Beth for the physical disappearance of Natalee. My post was a general statement.

I will not disagree with you that a runaway scenario is possible.....but in Natalee's case.....the evidence, to me, does not slant in that direction and here's why:

Natalee was looking forward to too many good things that were about to happen in her life. A whole new life was going to begin for her and her friends. I can't see her turning her back on this.

IMO.

[MiamiNice1]

Just saw your ETA on your post. I'll add that I don't believe a spur of the moment decision, as too many factors would have to easily come together because the MB kids were leaving that next day (or rather that morning!).

This was an international trip with Passport required - she left her passport behind. I'm not sure exactly how much money Natalee had, but I recall she did not have a lot of money to sustain an independent lifestyle for very long.

No....Natalee had too much to do when she got back to MB and as a "responsible" girl (other than her mistake of getting in the car with 3 strangers), I can't see her on this "wild hair."

imo.

[cassidy]

Originally posted by nascarmom
June 30th


How come she didn't tell Charles that Natalee had been kidnapped like she had told the highway patrol man just hours earlier? :confused:

Because she ***gulp*** lied to the nice policeman to get out of a ticket? But we don't really know for sure if there ever was a nice policeman, do we? :shrug:

[cassidy]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
I would think by now FOX would have played the 911 call a thousand times. MOO

Or located the nice policeman for an inteview.

[ebnrsg1]

Originally posted by chambord



I could give you my opinion, but you wouldn't like it.:)

I would be interested in hearing your opinion. I think it is good to hear all angles. I for one have never considered the Croes to be more than in the background but since the discussion has been brought up and bandied about by you and others I am now wondering if there is not some connection to something. For instance does anyone know how exactly it came about that C and Beth happened to make connections on the island. I mean of the thousands of people how did it happen that he was the one to enter the picture? He identifies Joran and then the boys mention the security guards and then all at once there is another Croes corroborating the story. Did C. send S. to corroborate because of a pang of guilty conscience in identifying the boys? Did he want the guards identified to throw the investigation off the trail etc etc. Yes inquiring minds must be the topic of the board tonight :)

[cassidy]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Would that be the policeman that got to listen to the phone message about Natalee being kidnapped or the policeman that called the FBI for her?

Either one would do. Make for a nice human interest story while Mrs Twitty pubically thanks him for his help (or both of them for their help). How could Greta miss that?

[cassidy]

Originally posted by chambord
***************snipped*************

How come she didn't tell Charles that Natalee had been kidnapped like she had told the highway patrol man just hours earlier? :confused:

**************snipped***************


I'll give you one option even though earlier I posted you wouldn't like it.

For openers, Beth received a call, and that call described the Natalee "I don't know these people" with the monkey sounds in the background, and a voice saying "are you calling home" click.
In her frantic state of hearing such words, kidnap flashed in her mind.

Rushing to Aruba, on the flight, her friends and companions were reassuring her that it was silly to think the worst, and Natalee had just stayed away too long and missed her flight. When she did arrive in Aruba, she posted the "we can work it out" words, trying to let Natalee know that if she partied too much irresponsibly, that the could work it out.

I can relate somewhat to this happening, I was miles away in another state, when I received alarming news about my child, rushing home, the friends that accompanied me were reassuring me, as I was expecting the worst.

It could have happened exactly this way, so I am not confused about the conflicting stories at all. I think when she met up with Charlie, she was still of the mind set that Natalee was with this unidentified as yet Joran.


moo moo [/B][/QUOTE]

Except that Mrs Twitty denies getting any phone calls from Natalee while in Aruba? that's where you lose me.

IMO

[cassidy]

Originally posted by chambord

The call was supposedly on the voice mail, or answering machine, of one the the MB kids.


Don't let me lose you...I think the call Beth received while she was returning to Alabama was that voice mail call. I think, imo, it was replayed for her. That's what threw her into a panic, and thinking she had been taken against her will. I would have thought the same, if I heard my child's voice saying, "I don't even know these people". Don't forget we haven't heard every word or nuance of that voice mail.


moo [/B][/QUOTE]

But I thought that was the call Charles Croes played for her late in the night after she arrived in Aruba? I don't know. I suppose her cell phone records will answer that question.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by nascarmom
No hes says:


VAN SUSTEREN: During the time that you were talking to Beth at the gas station, did the discussion of that phone call come up again?

C. CROES: Yes, it did.

VAN SUSTEREN: After you and Beth listened to that phone call several times and hung up with the person in the states, what did you do next?

C. CROES: After that, we spoke a while. And then we left that location with the intention of going to the Holiday Inn to continue meeting. On the way there, a young man and I were sitting in my car. And on the way there, instinctively, I wanted to go to drive off, pull over to the cabana area, just to look to see if perhaps she was there.

======================

Still no mention of kidnapping like she told the highway patrol man, just that Natalee asked someone to take her home.

Ahh, now this is where Charles Croes becomes very interesting. If you put in the rest of his actions surrounding that night, one has to wonder just why he decided to check the beach area before meeting back up with Beth and Jug Twitty at the hotel. Then of course it's awfully strange that he said he was trying to locate the vehicle that Natalee was last seen leaving C&C's in, he questions some kids at the beach area, describes the car, and they say "Oh, that's Joran". It wasen't Joran's car........it belonged to the Kalpoes.

Supposedly, Charles Croes pays someone to show him where Joran lives, they go by the VDS's home. BUT........during this time Beth and Jug Twitty are waiting at the hotel for Charles Croes (remember, Charles Croes was on his way there to meet up with Natalee's family) when they receive a call stating that Joran's home had been located ALONG WITH THE VEHICLE. But, when Beth and Jug Twitty go to the police station to get officers to escort them to the VDS's residence (along with Charles Croes), there is no vehicle.

Where do you think that vehicle that WAS located went to?

IMO

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/03/ng.01.html

J. TWITTY: They didn`t know what he looked like. We knew what he looked like because we were sitting there -- you can see how small a video screen is.

But anyway, they`re asking questions and also when we went to Carlos and Charlie`s, we asked questions in there, when we first got here, and one of the guys that was with us obviously asked somebody where we could find him, and they drove to the beach and they went down there and started asking some kids about him, and he ended up paying one of the kids $100 to tell him where Joran lived.

All of this time, Beth and I are up looking at videotape in the Holiday Inn. So at about 3:00 in the morning, everybody came back to the Holiday Inn --

GRACE: Let me get this straight. This is 3:00 a.m. and Natalee was last seen about 25, 26 hours before that?

J. TWITTY: Exactly.

And so one of the guys that helped us, with Universal Air, came running in and saying we`ve found him, we found the house, we found the car and everything, and Beth and I were just coming down. So we go and get two uniformed officers. We stopped at the police station.

We go in and sit there and wait about 15 minutes out in the parking lot. Finally the police officers come out. We go to his house, which is maybe a mile away from the police station. The police pull up to his house, turn the lights on, you know, shine the spotlight, and about 15 minutes later here comes a gentleman walking out to the fence.

Beth goes, "There he is." I said, "Beth, that`s not him, that`s a 45- year-old man."

[ebnrsg1]

Originally posted by chambord


Hey, I will be racked over the coals if this is taken to the bank.. Its just my opinion that the passport was left for when or should Natalee return. Its my understanding that the HI personall removed her belongings to clear the room, and later returned them when Natalee didn't appear. The chaperone, as far as I know approached the Visiblity Team re Natalee's disappearance and at that juncture were not flashing photos around. IMO, at this point I think all were thinking Natalee was off having a grand old time and would make an appearance eventually. Many would like to think of this case as a world wide plot of epic proprtions with sinister underpinnings of imaginative schemes, that, IMO, is not what happened. Remember the words, "it happened twenty times before and nothing bad happened"..........this one time, IMO, something did.

Cham
Not doubting your word about the bags going back to the room, but I think that is rather strange behavior on the part of the hotel personel, don't you? I mean one would think the logical thing to do would be to hold them at the front desk so they could have the room available to rent. It seems strange since at that point there was no reason to guess that Natalee would not show up grab her bags and run for the airport.

moo

[cassidy]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Why would the HI staff return her luggage to a room that was no longer being paid for?

Don't you think the HI has a storage room like other hotels?

My problem with the luggage is not so much where it was left but rather that no one can seem to remember WHAT was done with it. We've heard:
A. The luggage was left in the room.
B. the luggage was taken to the front lobby and later returned to the room
C. The luggage was taken to the airport in anticipation of Natalee arriving at the last minute and then returned to the HI.
We have also heard that Natalee packed the nite before and then that the roommates packed for her the morning they left. But then we saw the videos with Mrs Twitty in the room showing some of Natalee's things (ie, the medicine on the nite stand) left out?
Why is it that no one can give a definitive answer to what happend to the luggage? Does anyone even know if the luggage that Natalee left the USA with was all returned to the USA?

[julianella]

Originally posted by chambord



I'm in the mood tonight to reply to such an opinion.

Some of you feel Natalee had it so tough at home that she had no other options but to runaway. Wrong!! She had Dave, aunts, and uncles that would have gladly welcomed her into their home. Natalee needn't have put herself thru the risk and turmoil of escaping from a foreign country without resources.

I'll take it one step further. Being a single mom myself, a long time ago, the years Natalee and Matt were being reared by a single, working mom, were probably tough. Not enough money, child care, etc. Let's face it, Dave had a new life, a young family to support, his child support checks to Beth were probably not all that generous, he wasn't making millions. Times were hard.

Jug enters the picture, suddenly they are all in a affluent area, money is flowing more freely, times are good. Most likely the best years of a teen's life, when one wants the fashions, the gimmicks that all the other teens have. Natalee had it good, and soon she would be embarking on a life without the restraints of parental control. What reason would she have to become a runaway? IMO, Natalee had many options and many, including her Dad that was devoted to her to, would have helped and welcomed her in every way, if, in fact it was unbearable for her to live with Jug and Beth.

Natalee had many options, IMO. She did not voluntarily runaway.



moo

Cham this is an exellent post. I agree 100%!

[julianella]

Originally posted by AmberVonTussle


So the bags and passport were left in the room? The roommates didn't take them? Housekeeping didn't turn them in? The chaperone didn't take the passport with him to talk to ppl during his search for Natalee's whereabouts? All that stuff was left in tact all day just as Mrs. T told LE. Thanks!

MOO

Thought I could chime in on this, once on vacation after I checked out I left a jacket in my room, and didn't come back for almost 3 hours to get it, it was still sitting in the same place I left it. House keeping had not yet got to that room.

Now with all these students being there, maybe they had not gotten to Natalees room, before Beth landed! IMO

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Yes I know, I have commented on Croes' ability to get an ID of Joran by describing Deepak's car.

I thought Charles Croes was part of Digicel cellular rentals, is that part of International Air or is Jug referring to another posse member?

How could he say he found the car when it wasn't even at the VDS house - Croes got an ID of the car "owner" and 'located the car' in that sense.

How come there was no apparent interest in Deepak's car when they all finally did meet up at the VDS home?

How come Charles Croes doesn't tell the world, or ALE for that matter, that Joran admitted to sexually assaulting Natalee in front of him and 10 other witnesses like Jug and Beth claim?

And Jug has himself and Beth at the police station within 12 hours of landing on Aruba yet Beth says it took them 36 hours to find the police.

I'm sure many people are going to disagree with me here, but in Charles Croes first interview with Greta, she asked him before that night had he ever heard of the VDS's, or been to their home before, and CC responded "never". I'm sorry, but I don't believe him, and there was a reason Greta asked him that question.....IMO. Charles Croes ran/runs a cellular company on the island of Aruba, as well as an upscale Hugo Boss boutique, that is located on main St in Aruba (also known as Gayn Betico Croes). And, I am guessing that Greta has already done her home work regarding Charles Croes before she asked that question. I have tried to get a close-up picture of the watch that Paulas Vandersloot wears (loosely) on his wrist as it does resembles a Hugo watch, and I find it awfully hard to believe that Charles Croes, being an operator of two major business in Aruba had never heard of the VDS's.

There is something that Charles Croes knew that made him go to the beach area looking for the vehicle Natalee was last seen leaving C&C's in, rather than going back to the hotel to meet the family. And, he also said he went to the beach area to see if Natalee was there. Why? what made Charles Croes think Natalee would be at the beach?

There is nothing that just says they just got "an Id on the car (owner)", Jug Twitty stated that they were told the home, vehicle, and everything had been located.

Furthermore, there were two police officers that escorted the family to the location (along with Charles Croes) after a 15 minute wait, of course. What I find very perplexing is that it "should" have been the officers job to question Joran regarding Natalee, but for some reason he is telling Charles Croes, someone he supposedly doesn't know, intimate details from that night? doesn't make sense.

Also, Charles Croes was not willing to confirm to Greta that Joran had lied about where he dropped Natalee off, even though he had known by this time it WAS a lie.

My instincts tell me that when Charles Croes returned home late that night, he was able to pull any cell phone records and know the activity that occurred the night Natalee vanished (if not before), and that is why he made that entry on the BB the following day. I am facing reality in the fact that first and foremost Charles Croes is a businessman, who could have had knowledge of important information. But, do you take a risk and share that information with the RIGHT people, or do you possibly take up an invitation, or make a visit to the Aruban authorities with what you know so that information involving certain people does NOT get into the wrong hands? we may never know. I would like to think Charles Croes has a conscious, but one thing I do believe is he knows much more than we have been led to believe.

IMO

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161233,00.html

C. CROES: After that, we spoke a while. And then we left that location with the intention of going to the Holiday Inn to continue meeting. On the way there, a young man and I were sitting in my car. And on the way there, instinctively, I wanted to go to drive off, pull over to the cabana area, just to look to see if perhaps she was there.

VAN SUSTEREN: Then where did you go?

C. CROES: Then we continued on track over to the Holiday Inn. And we were supposed to turn over to go into the Holiday Inn. And I had made a decision not to and went straight ahead. And going straight ahead, I made another decision to go to the beach area.

*************************

VAN SUSTEREN: There's been absolutely no news, no newspaper cycle, to indicate that Natalee Holloway is missing, right, at that point?

C. CROES: OK.

VAN SUSTEREN: So somehow Joran decided to come up with this lie about the Holiday Inn, assuming that's a lie, and I guess that's pretty much been accepted as a lie?

C. CROES: All right.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is there anything that he told you or he said that would suggest that he had any sort of inkling that she was missing and there was some foul play?

C. CROES: No. What he said to me — he repeated to me over and over again was his desire to help find her, that if there's anything he could do to help find her, he would, just please ask him, that kind of thing. It was a very — at that point, it was a scared young guy who seemed to be wanting to help.

[cassidy]

Originally posted by chambord



The HI isn't the #1 primo hotel in Aruba, IMO, I doubt at that time of the year, which is off season, the hotel was at full capacity. Perhaps, given the situation, the manager extended a courtesy and instructed room service to return Natalee's luggage to her room.
Unless he wa informed that someone intended to occupy that room, the luggage would have gone into storage until some claimed it. IMO the directive to hold the room came from someone in MB.

IMO

[cassidy]

Originally posted by chambord



I once had a late day flight, but check out time was noon. The hotel was gracious enough to hold my luggage in the room, till I took the airport van that evening. It can happen, and if it didn't it this particular case, what's the big deal if it was someone from MB?

moo

It shouldn't be a big deal.

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Ahhhh Gregor .... you're right!! Just like eb mentioned also .... why would they return Natalee's bags to a room which was now ready for other visitors??

JMO


I have asked the manager of the HI here in town(he is on my bowling league) this question. His answer was...The only way they would return packed bagage to the same room is if the person, or someone with authority re=booked the room. Otherwise it would be put in storage untill called for. Also, if the person that rented the room has not packed, or checked out by check out time, they send a maid to do the packing.

I really don't know if it is done different in Aruba or not.

moo

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by nascarmom

The big myth was that on the small island of Aruba, everyone knows everyone that Paulus was some high judicial figure. Don't believe he never heard of Paulus, it doesn't affect his tale.

Like I said, how could he locate the car when Deepak's car wasn't at the VDS home? He got an ID on Joran from the car and thus located it.

Do you have any credible links to support your claims of Charles Croes' assets?

Charles claimed to be clairvoyant, perhaps a spirit advised him to stop at the cabana to see if Natalee was there.

I don't get your point about sharing electronic records, they ar part of the investigation file. You think he can just hide them??? What are you talking about 'wrong hands'???? Do you have a credible link that he even pulled them up or more importantly that he had the capability and access to do that?

Anyone can claim to be anyone in cyberspace, if you choose to believe Charles Croes was posting in the internet, go ahead.

No, the person told Beth and Jug Twitty that the home AND vehicle had been FOUND. Now, why would someone say the vehicle had been "found" when the person at the beach told Charles Croes when he described the car, that it was Joran? Supposedly, that car was not at the beach when Charles Croes just happened to stop by.

Do you know for a fact that when Charles Croes, and the person he said he paid the $100.00 to, did not "locate" that vehicle on the VDS property BEFORE going there with Natalee's family and the officers? it's a rumor that it was on that property, only to be gone upon the families arrival. Maybe that explains why someone told Beth and Jug Twitty that they found the home, vehicle and everything. Could also account for the 15 minute delay in the officers escort to the property who's office was "very close" to the VDS's.

Charles Croes assets? it's a well known fact he is a buisnessman on the island of Aruba. He owned and operated Arubafastphones, and also an upscale Hugo Boss boutique.

I am simply asking a question as to WHY Charles Croes thought to go to the beach to look for Joran? did he know where he would find him? did he know that Natalee might be at that beach? and if so, why?

Charles Croes DID make a post on the internet the following day. Charles Croes was contacted by Natalee's family regarding a cell call and he was able to pull THAT information. And, yes I do believe he had access to cell phone records, but unfortunately I have no link to any information that Charles Croes may have shared, or with whom. I do happen to agree with Dave Holloway though.

IMO

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/03/ng.01.html

. TWITTY: Exactly.

And so one of the guys that helped us, with Universal Air, came running in and saying we`ve found him, we found the house, we found the car and everything, and Beth and I were just coming down. So we go and get two uniformed officers. We stopped at the police station.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Croes wouldn't have access to any phone records except for the phones Fast Phone owns.

I think Croes is no longer aligned with the Twittys because at some point his conscience did kick in.

Yes, Gregor.

But wouldn't it be interesting to know just who had a phone through Aruba fast phones?

I imagine many peoples minds in Aruba began to shift when their tourism began to "shift". Money tends to do that to people.

Maybe Charles Croes will surprise me yet. I hope so.

IMO

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Don't know why it wouldn't be, hotel policies span continents.


That is my thinking, but then again I do not know everything. (smile).

I am wondering if the Twittys re-booked the room?? uumm

mooo

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Laurus


You'd think their butts would be hanging out a mile, liability-wise, if they left someones luggage (or part of it in this case sans the blue one) in the room, along with the passport, money, given the fact that there was a missing person and IIRC a missing key card.

It would have been put under lock and key in storage.

I wonder what hour is checkout time? With that big a tour, all those kids running around, they may not have scheduled the room cleaning until exactly the check out time.

IMO


The way the mang. explained it to me is like this........the maids first clean the room of the people that have checked out early. Then they go on to the ones that check out, by time line.

Sorry if this is considered O/T.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Again Charles didn't say that in his interview, Jug said Charles said it. I choose not to believe Jug.

I don't know WHY, perhaps if I were clairvoyant like Charles I would.

I don't recall Charles claiming to have any cell phone records at the secret gas station meeting, only him and Beth calling a US number and listening to a call.

It's not a well known fact about Charles Croes busniness adventures, do you have a credible link?

You can believe it's Charles posting on the internet if you want.

That's okay if you choose not to believe Jug twitty. After all, I'm sure the events they went through in Aruba are forever burned into their memory like a hot iron, never to be forgotten.

And, I guess you missed Charles Croes' OTHER internet post where he says he is not clairvoyant, and doesnt even know where that came from. I still say there is a reason he went to that beach that night. He either knew something about some ugly stories that was happening to tourist girls (the 20 something before comes to mind), or he knew exactly where to find Joran (someone that he claimed he didn't know). Either way, his message on the BB the following day does speak volumes to me, and I have no doubt in my mind it was him.

As far as his business adventures are concerned, the internet is a wonderful feature and you can find out quite a bit of information if you know how to search.

IMO

Author: Charles (---.setardsl.aw)
Date: 06-02-05 09:01

There are issues in this case that can go beyond the obvious in their implications.

It will take time for all the information regarding this lovely child to come out. Some of it will be hard to handle and some of it will be expected. With regards to the family of this missing child, my prayers are with you.

I was with them on the first night they arrived to ARuba (looking for their daughter) from midnight until 5:30 AM and have kept in touch. In my opinion, this issue has far reaching implications for all those involved.

I wish all of us strength

charles
arubafastphones.com

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Because of the high cost of phone rentals, his business is almost certainly done with tourist who are in Aruba a short time.

Any resident who couldn't afford or qualify for regular cell phone service would have a pre-paid plan direct with the carrier.

I am with you in hoping Croes does one day tell the entire truth about his involvement with the Twittys.

I have never heard that Charles Croes (Aruba fast phones) only dealt with tourist who was in Aruba a short time. Grant it, he probably did much of his business with tourists, but I imagine he also offered extended plans for Aruba residence.

And, as I recall wasn't Deepak Kalpoes phone a pre-paid plan? I believe it was.

IMO

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Watership Down



Rooms are assigned to housekeepers by computer printout. Rooms that have already checked out are marked by an x on the sheet. If housekeeping isn't wanted for occupied rooms they are marked by an n/h usually by the manager of housekeeping.

The housekeepers start with the rooms that have been emptied already. They work their way to rooms that are occupied. A card is in each room telling guests what time housekeeping works. They have the option of being in the room, out of the room, put the placard on the door saying no h/k, or asking the h/k to come back later.

Nothing is ever left in an unoccupied room because the room is in the computer system as available. Granted it has been years since I worked in housekeeping but I know people who still do and the routine hasn't changed.




Thank you WD!..........You explained it so much more concise than I did.

;)

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by chambord




Thank you Hope!! I'm trying to get ready for work (ugh) and I had forgotten about this particular post, I had read it so long ago. Not too mention, that is his photo on that website.

moo

Your welcome chambord. :)

I just always thought that post was so, so.......strange. Now, all this time later what was posted has seem to come true. How could he have known? I am glad I saved it.

Don't work to hard!

IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


...... But, according to some, cham .... Beth thought Natalee had been kidnapped .... not "delayed". I would have to agree with Laurus .... IF kidnapping was suspected, access to the room should have been denied to EVERYONE.

JMO

I think it should have been denied to everyone, but unfortunately the ALE did not interfer with Beth staying there. Nor did they come collect certain items that I think they should have collected the minute they figured out something wasn't right. ie: the camera!

imo

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Laurus
Speaking of embroidered flowers, all I remember about that was the NG show where BHT and Jug were talking about the supposed statements of Joran, and that he had mentioned an embroidered flower on her "underwear", I'm not sure if we ever learned if it was panties or bra.

That's another thing that set my hinky meter off.....first that Joran, a 17 year old kid, would bother to notice the details of the underwear at 2 am in the dark when both had been drinking and were making out, and secondly that he would describe an embroidered flower so well, so much in detail, that BHT could say "That's the one!!! That's the one she was wearing that night" paraphrased.

So why would he have paid attention to an embroidered flower to describe them in such perfect detail, and why would she know about the exact detail of an embroidered flower on her daughter's underwear to know it was the same as the one "Joran" had described in his translated "statements".

Hinky hinky stinky.

IMO



ITA..... how could he have even seen it.? What did he do, shine a flashlight on them? rofl Or" flick his bic".

I also concur that ther is no way a Step-father should know each and evey kind of panty that his step-daughter owns or wears. Wonder if this was personal knowledge on Jugs part. uumm Talk about kinky. IMOHOO

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Laurus


Maybe it was because Arubans had donated so much to the Twittys in money and compped services, suites in hotels, meals at the best restaurants, etc. Then, when they heard about Mrs. Twitty badmouthing Aruba on TV (which wasn't shown locally, IIRC) they turned on her. I would have too. Remember when she said she had to have someone taste her food because of possible poison? In the best restaurants, with free food. IIRC.

People tend to take those insults seriously. And I'll never forget the author of the VF article relating tidbits of Mrs. Twitty's gossip that he had found to be in error. Like the mysterious death of a maid that supposedly involved the Kalpoes.........IIRC see VF.

IMO

That's not really fair, is it Laurus?

Beth Twitty along with Dave Holloway has always said how wonderful the local people were to them. Tim Miller mentions on his web site the businesses that donated money to the search for Natalee.

It was not until the family had no choice, did they publicly take a stand and criticize the ALE........not the Aruban people. And, if the truth were known I bet there are MANY people on that island who do not support the way this investigation was handled. After all, many of them are merely working class people and do not have influence, or know people in "the right places". It's tourism that drives Aruba, and it's the government that drives tourism. It's that simple.

I bet there are quite a few people who sympathize with Natalee's family, and their desperate search for answers, when those answers have been HIDDEN. I have to wonder how many of those local people support Joran and his lies? and wonder what will happen if someday "something bad happens" to their daughter, sister, or niece. How long is the ALE going to turn a blind eye?

People do take thing seriously, especially a corrupt government. The truth would have been so much easier on the innocent people of Aruba, not to mention the family.

IMO

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by chambord



What I find strange is that Joran saw "in the dark" the flowers on her underwear, so perhaps it wasn't in the dark, but a lit room.

moo

Good point, chambord.

IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by court~critic1®




ITA..... how could he have even seen it.? What did he do, shine a flashlight on them? rofl Or" flick his bic".

I also concur that ther is no way a Step-father should know each and evey kind of panty that his step-daughter owns or wears. Wonder if this was personal knowledge on Jugs part. uumm Talk about kinky. IMOHOO

There really is nothing to support thinking like that. Beth could have told him. Ugh my stomach just turned. I know there are sick step parents out there, but it does not seem to me to be the case in this case.

Here is the thing, Natalees friends say Beth and Natalee were close, and Beth says she and Natalee were close, so IMO they could have shopped together, perhaps Beth had a similar pair, perhaps Beth bought them, so she would then know what they looked like.

I think more importantly how did Joran see them? Unless they were not really on the beach after all?....

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

That's because she hadn't been reported as missing, and possibly kidnapped. They probably didn't even know what hotel she had been staying at.

If they didn't know she was missing then what did the ALE think they were escorting them to the VDS home for?

Also what did Beth need to give a statement for?

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

ALE was most likely told that Natalee had voluntarily stayed behind in Aruba to be with Joran and they were there to take her home.

When it bacame obvious that Natalee wasn't at the van der Sloot home, they had no choice but to report her missing the next day.

And being Natalee was an adult in Aruba, then how could the ALE allow them to just go over ther? See I still for the life of me cannot understand why in the world the ALE would even allow that to happen let alone in the wee hours of the morning!

They did have a choice because in Aruba they don't consider a person missing for I think 72 hours. And as they say it happens all the time, so why not wait the ENTIRE wait period to get the statement?

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Watership Down


Demanding a boycott that will only hurt the very people who went out of their way to help Beth is fair?. The hotel owners who comped her rooms, the restuarant owners who comped her meals and all of their families.


And THAT isn't really fair now is it?

When I think about this, that is the only recourse they felt they had as THAT is the only thing Aruban officials care about.......tourism.

It was announced on the radio to Aruba the night before the "misinformation campaign", that if something were to have happened to Natalee it would hurt the reputation of the island. Now, I have to wonder just how far "those in authority" would go to protect that reputation, which means TOURSM. Seems to me they went quite a distance.

IMO

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html

Prime Minister Nelson Oduber said on national radio Friday night that if something happened to Holloway, it would damage the reputation of this island of 97,000 people, which depends on tourism and is considered one of the safest spots in the Caribbean.

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


That's just more assurance for me, julia, that ALE did not think any CRIME had occurred, such as kidnapping. I'm convinced they thought Natalee was at Joran's because she WANTED to be, because THAT'S what they were told !!

JMO

My thought is the ALE did not take this case seriously in the beginning and that is what harmed things.

The should not have taken the family to that VDS home, they could have sent a car over there. They could have taken a statement to stall Beth, they could have requested Beth no stay in that room, as it could have been a potential crime scene. I think they did not take Beth seriously, I think they did not take this case seriously, and by the time Dompig came in as COP, well really it was to late!

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


When I think about this, that is the only recourse they felt they had as THAT is the only thing Aruban officials care about.......tourism.

It was announced on the radio to Aruba the night before the "misinformation campaign", that if something were to have happened to Natalee it would hurt the reputation of the island. Now, I have to wonder just how far "those in authority" would go to protect that reputation, which means TOURSM. Seems to me they went quite a distance.

IMO

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html

Prime Minister Nelson Oduber said on national radio Friday night that if something happened to Holloway, it would damage the reputation of this island of 97,000 people, which depends on tourism and is considered one of the safest spots in the Caribbean.

Hope I agree. Although I strongly disagreed with a boycott, I can see this was a way to get their attention and say hey we want something done! IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Why would ALE not allow a family to try to talk their daughter into returning home? If they could do so, it would be the best way to resolve whatever problem there was.

We don't know what was in Beth's statement.

Taking a statement and starting a search for a missing person are two different things.

Sure they can allow her to post signs or look for her, but to take her to the home? Nah, I think that was crap!

Unless that home was known to harbor "runaways" as you call it?

I will never understand why the people in charge of this investigation, never really took charge! imo

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Watership Down



I heard her say that. Unbelievable. Someone should really explain to her that saying Natalee was drinking and left with boys she didn't know isn't placing blame, it's stating the truth.



The way I see it now, is that Beth does not really want the truth. If the truth came out, then the love bowls and donations would stop. IMOO Beth has become a legend in her own time in her mind and some others.MOO Natalee is all but forgotten.

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Burned so deep in their minds they keep changing their stories?

Yeah, I did miss it - on purpose.

He said he didn't know the VDS, if you think he's lying, fine by me.

Ugly stories of what is happening to tourist girls? Like getting drunk and out of control and being asked not to return, like the MB children?

It's not my responsibility to back YOUR assertions, if you don't have a credible link, just say so.

I do believe I had heard that there were a few tourists harrassed or assulted prior to Natalees disappearance!

I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered hearing it!

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by chambord
:seeya:

Have a nice day everyone, you too Gregor, even though you like to needle me I wish you a great day.

:seeya: Have a great Day Cham!

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

If Beth told ALE her adult daughter was a house guest at the van der Sloots', they did take her seriously.

If she had told them the van der Sloots were holding her against her will, the Twittys and the posse would have been barred from visiting, and they'd probably send a SWAT team to the house.

I don't think that is true either, as the ALE would have said well wait til morning and then we will take you there. The ALE rushed there in the middle of the night, as we heard it happens all the time.... and 20 of those times seems to be done by Joran...so perhaps they the ALE believe Natalee was there...

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Laurus


Or, as a mechanism to keep the focus off of MB, off the chaperones, off the students, off the one group of people who could really shed light on what happened that 4 days in Aruba.

IMO

Right because we all know that by going to the media night after night, will keep your secrets hidden!!

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Well now, julia .... Don't you think the fact this girl's family had just flown from America, on a private jet, .... some have said, very ANGRY people .... wouldn't have influenced them any?? Maybe they thought this was "something they could take care of" without much hassle at all.

JMO

All the more reason to stall or delay it! THe COP was friendly with the VDS family, he could have stalled the family and spoken to PVDS himself! But instead they allowed the visit...

I do not think the LE here would escort foreigners to the home of a resident! IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


I don't think they were told, in the beginning, anything that would make them think a crime had been committed. I think they took the family VERY seriously .... I think they had been told Natalee was with Joran .... voluntarily. I think they went out of their way to accommodate this family .... at that hour of the morning.

JMO

I disagree. I think that is why they were told to go sit in the Bar and wait she'd show up, they always do...

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Watership Down



It was not the only recourse they had. They had already been told they could file a complaint with The Netherlands. They chose not to do that. My guess is they knew they didn't have a leg to stand on and chose instead to play on the emotions of Americans they had duped for months.


"I have a friend coming over here soon and the first thing he asked me was, 'Is it safe to go to Arizona?' "

Tourism officials aren't taking any chances.

"We've been working with a public relations person in Japan to get our message out that this was an isolated incident," said Jacki Mieler, a spokeswoman for the Arizona Office of Tourism.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0724havasupai0724.html

It sure looks like the Az tourism industry isn't taking any chances that a tourists murder doesn't hurt their state. No different than Aruba.

Oh please.

If you ask me a formal announcment on a boycott to Aruba was not even necessary. By that time the whole world had heard two innocent men had been jailed while the last knowm persons who was with Natalee had roamed free for 10 days and had LIED about where they dropped Natalee off.

The American public had learned that Joran and the Kalpoe's had actually accompanied the ALE back to the HI with the family and re-enacted how Natalee had stumbled from the car,hit her head and walked thru the lobby door. The three boys had described a phantom guard helping Natalee, then it was found that she was not even seen on the security cameras as returning to the hotel.........but, they remained FREE for 10 days while the TWO guards were arrested, their vehicles impounded, and homes searched.

Who could forget the deep water searches that was denied to Tim Miller, or the VDS's main home that was NEVER searched?

And, let's not forget Dompig stating Natalee most likely died of an overdose, without a body to prove it. She was probably buried, then dug up and re-buried again.

The relationships between everyone involved in the investigation, from the assistant police chief, beach bum (drug dealer), pretend reporter, attorney, who knows how far the list goes.

Then, there is Karen Jansen who sent the letter to our government asking if Beth Twitty was really related to Hitler, among other things.

I could go on.......

The bottom line is, a request of a boycott was not necessary in my opinion. After what the American public witnessed, I believe Aruba would have suffered the same effect.

IMO

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

What bothers me as much as anything is the cavalier attitude with which they all seem to dispense their BS.

They really do display a sense of entitlement, and act like nobody who hears them has a working brain.


I concur! also that people do not have a memory to remember what statemnts Beth and ilk have made previous on different show and etc. Of course some do not seem to remember or give her a pass. Interesting.

MOOO

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Laurus


That's hilarious. They have "stagnant air warnings"? What are you supposed to do about that, get out an air freshener?

Sorry OT


Well IMOO Beth does seem to spew out "stagnant air" most of the time. Sorry, lol here.


Maybe that is the polite or PC word for "smog" Here they use "ozone layer'.lol Anyway you put it .... it is still "smog"

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

What bothers me as much as anything is the cavalier attitude with which they all seem to dispense their BS.

They really do display a sense of entitlement, and act like nobody who hears them has a working brain.

I'm thinking you or any of us of us would tend to get just a tad cranky if we couldn't find our daughter, who had disappeared and was possibly murdered. Especially after seeing first-hand that the police are so incompetent.

Things are more easily understood when we take the time to walk in another person's shoes.

imo.

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down



Go sit in the bar, or hotel lobby, or airport lobby, or on the beach...wherever...is advice LE would tell parents of a child who may have spent the night drinking and partying and missed a flight. It is NOT what they would tell parents claiming their child was kidnapped. :rolleyes:

If a LEO told me to go wait in a bar for my missing child to show up, we woulld have a problem. And I would be DEMANDING a supervisor!

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


Oh please.

If you ask me a formal announcment on a boycott to Aruba was not even necessary. By that time the whole world had heard two innocent men had been jailed while the last knowm persons who was with Natalee had roamed free for 10 days and had LIED about where they dropped Natalee off.

The American public had learned that Joran and the Kalpoe's had actually accompanied the ALE back to the HI with the family and re-enacted how Natalee had stumbled from the car,hit her head and walked thru the lobby door. The three boys had described a phantom guard helping Natalee, then it was found that she was not even seen on the security cameras as returning to the hotel.........but, they remained FREE for 10 days while the TWO guards were arrested, their vehicles impounded, and homes searched.

Who could forget the deep water searches that was denied to Tim Miller, or the VDS's main home that was NEVER searched?

And, let's not forget Dompig stating Natalee most likely died of an overdose, without a body to prove it. She was probably buried, then dug up and re-buried again.

The relationships between everyone involved in the investigation, from the assistant police chief, beach bum (drug dealer), pretend reporter, attorney, who knows how far the list goes.

Then, there is Karen Jansen who sent the letter to our government asking if Beth Twitty was really related to Hitler, among other things.

I could go on.......

The bottom line is, a request of a boycott was not necessary in my opinion. After what the American public witnessed, I believe Aruba would have suffered the same effect.

IMO

:seeya: Hope (waving enthusiastically) - How wonderul it is to see you!!!

How we've missed your articulate, logical and excellent posts! (what a terrific memory you have!) Our board can only be brightened by such a poster as you!

<happy dance icon>

moo.

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom
That's quite all right Gregor!

There was no reason for Dave to make any report because according the congressmen Bachhus he called the Aruban gvt and FBI the day after Natalee went missing. So the ball was in motion and Dave is full of it. But hey, gotta have something in the book to show just how corrupt and inept ALE is, even though the FBI told him they were doing a good job.

So the only ones full of it are the family? The ALE should have taken control of the situation beginning with DAY 1 even if they did not think it was serious at first, but allowing access to the VDS home it set a horrible standard. imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down
Originally posted by julianella


If a LEO told me to go wait in a bar for my missing child to show up, we woulld have a problem. And I would be DEMANDING a supervisor!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A supervisor would tell you the same thing because it is policy.

Is it policy to tell a person to wait at a bar, or perhaps say go wait in the room (hotel), or it in the home country say wait at home? I think saying go to the bar order a drink and wait she'll show up is rather insulting! IMO

Maybe I am just sensitive to stuff like that but I surely would have made a fuss. And I think that is when the family started being angry with the ALE!

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

I believe this was supposedly said to Dave a few days later, but we didn't hear about it until much later.

Isn't it strange that all the derogatory remarks about ALE and Aruba didn't start until a few months after Natalee disappeared?

Why would that be strange? How could they immediately know ALE was incompetent? The Holloway/Twittys are logical, fair people and gave ALE some time (too much time) before coming out and speaking against their (ALE's) inability to do what was needed to solve this case.

Why would they immediately criticize? They probably thought things would improve with some time into the investigation. With anything, you must give it time for results to pan out. It didn't take much for the Holloway/Twittys to realize just who or what they were dealing with - along with the rest of the world.

I believe that ALE was doing such a poor job that the Holloway/Twittys were forced to speak out so early. Usually, you do not criticize in the hopes the people helping you will accomplish something. It had to be pretty severe if the family took such a drastic step by speaking out about ALE in a few months.

At that early point, to their horror, they must have realized they were NEVER getting anywhere.

What's new about incompetent police departments? This can be said of many police departments all over the world - including here in the U.S.

IMO. MOO.

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Why didn't they get a little cranky when these things supposedly started happening?

Why did it take them about three months to remember they happened?

Why are we only now hearing about things that supposedly happened at the onset of the investigation.

I just answered these questions in a post above. I'd like to hear what you think.

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


O/T .... Same thing here, Gregor. My "weatherbug" on my computer is going CRAZY!! We are having all kinds of "Excessive Heat Warnings" .... "Stagnant Air Warnings" . We can have temps. in the triple digits over the next couple of days. I'm in Western NY.

Sorry off topic....
LOL fair what I find funny here, is they are saying to not be outside if possible, because the heat is dangerous, yet they are asking people to not run their Air conditioners inside... because it is causeing brown outs.. We can't win in this heat! My hubby asked me when I was gonna cook dinner last night and I told him when it starts snowing again!

LOL

Ok sorry...

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by julianella


Is it policy to tell a person to wait at a bar, or perhaps say go wait in the room (hotel), or it in the home country say wait at home? I think saying go to the bar order a drink and wait she'll show up is rather insulting! IMO

Maybe I am just sensitive to stuff like that but I surely would have made a fuss. And I think that is when the family started being angry with the ALE!

I would have my pillow and blanket sleeping out in the lobby until I got answers or action, Julia! imo.

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Why didn't they get a little cranky when these things supposedly started happening?

Why did it take them about three months to remember they happened?

Why are we only now hearing about things that supposedly happened at the onset of the investigation.

My assumption would be that they were trying to give it a chance, they were trying to be supportive in the beginning, but when that was not getting them anywhere, then the anger came out! imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by MiamiNice1


I would have my pillow and blanket sleeping out in the lobby until I got answers or action, Julia! imo.

I probably would too. I am like an annoying fly that just never goes away!!

imo

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by julianella


My assumption would be that they were trying to give it a chance, they were trying to be supportive in the beginning, but when that was not getting them anywhere, then the anger came out! imo

I really respect and admire your posts, Julia. You are able to empathize completely with a parent's point of view, without having children, yet. (I believe you've mentioned you don't have children, yet, right?)

You hone in exactly to the point and express yourself in much the same way as a lioness with her cubs. You must have had a beautiful example in your parents.

Seems there are many parents without this ability and it just makes your posts all the more encouraging to read!

imo.

[julianella]

Originally posted by Laurus


The main gripe the Twittys say over and over, and here on the message boards it's said over and over, also, is the initial lies of the boys, the sg detainment and the 10 day lapse in the detainment of the boys (while they were under surveillance of course).

It's a broken record, and the questions: Why did the Twittys seem to develop into the idea of kidnapping, and why didn't BHT care to share the "sexual assault" "admission" of Joran that first night, why didn't she come out with that until, IIRC September.

Valid questions, and the lack of answers just throw's more cold water on BHT's accusations.

IMO

Why did the Twitty's develop the idea of kidnapping? I think because Beth was told she left with Joran and there were two other men in the car, and had not been seen since. Getting in a car with strangers, and vanishing does often lead to kidnapping! That would have been my immediate thought. Then when they lied, well I think that pushed her over the edge with the thought! IMO

I think Beth said sexual harassment, for a few different reasons, first we know from more then one person Natalee was not very experienced in the sexual regard, and we have Joran mentioning things that were uncharacteristic of her, then we have the "statement" where she is going in and out, yet he admits they were making out, and if you put the two together, then it is sexual assult, as DOmpig even said that would be a felony!

And in the beginning we heard the Prosecutors do not release information, so perhaps it did not come out in the beginning because the family did not want to damage the case... but when things started going down hill, then how else could the family expose things? They told what happened, as per their interpetation! imo

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Laurus


The main gripe the Twittys say over and over, and here on the message boards it's said over and over, also, is the initial lies of the boys, the sg detainment and the 10 day lapse in the detainment of the boys (while they were under surveillance of course).

It's a broken record, and the questions: Why did the Twittys seem to develop into the idea of kidnapping, and why didn't BHT care to share the "sexual assault" "admission" of Joran that first night, why didn't she come out with that until, IIRC September.

Valid questions, and the lack of answers just throws more cold water on BHT's accusations.

IMO

In answer to all your questions above:

Shock, grief, despair, disgust, tears, anger, frustration, desperation, panic, horror, nightmare, fear.....you get the picture, right?

imo.

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by julianella


Why did the Twitty's develop the idea of kidnapping? I think because Beth was told she left with Joran and there were two other men in the car, and had not been seen since. Getting in a car with strangers, and vanishing does often lead to kidnapping! That would have been my immediate thought. Then when they lied, well I think that pushed her over the edge with the thought! IMO

I think Beth said sexual harassment, for a few different reasons, first we know from more then one person Natalee was not very experienced in the sexual regard, and we have Joran mentioning things that were uncharacteristic of her, then we have the "statement" where she is going in and out, yet he admits they were making out, and if you put the two together, then it is sexual assult, as DOmpig even said that would be a felony!

And in the beginning we heard the Prosecutors do not release information, so perhaps it did not come out in the beginning because the family did not want to damage the case... but when things started going down hill, then how else could the family expose things? They told what happened, as per their interpetation! imo

Thanks for explaning so much better than I, Julia.

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down
Originally posted by julianella


Is it policy to tell a person to wait at a bar, or perhaps say go wait in the room (hotel), or it in the home country say wait at home? I think saying go to the bar order a drink and wait she'll show up is rather insulting! IMO

Maybe I am just sensitive to stuff like that but I surely would have made a fuss. And I think that is when the family started being angry with the ALE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Considering they were in a foreign country it would be a little hard for LE to tell them to go wait at home like they tell others. :rolleyes:

You do realize they sell non alcoholic drinks in bars right? Especially in resorts? And telling them somewhere specific to wait means LE would know where they were in case they came across anything relating to the missing person like an accident report.

I also said hotel! I said home if it was in their home country... so why the eye roll?

And yes I realize what they sell in bars, but when it comes to a person you love your child for that matter, I find it rather offensive to be told to wait in the bar!

imo

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

I think you contradicted yourself.

When did they become aware of ALE's incompetence?

When did they first start criticizing ALE?

Why didn't they file formal complaints when they first believed they were being abused?

How did they believe the tabloid media was going to help them?

1) I don't know when, I was answering to your statement of that they criticized quickly in the first few months.

2) Answer same as #1

3) Aruba is a foreign country to them. Americans have trouble even doing that here in the U.S. where things are so much easier.

4) Yes, IMO, they probably thought ALL and ANY media could/would help them. It's probably what I would have thought, too, if my daughter were missing.

IMO.

[julianella]

Originally posted by MiamiNice1


I really respect and admire your posts, Julia. You are able to empathize completely with a parent's point of view, without having children, yet. (I believe you've mentioned you don't have children, yet, right?)

You hone in exactly to the point and express yourself in much the same way as a lioness with her cubs. You must have had a beautiful example in your parents.

Seems there are many parents without this ability and it just makes your posts all the more encouraging to read!

imo.

No I do not have children.. sadly I am terrified to have them, but anywho, I do have many close younger relatives, and friends who have children, which I am extremely close to.

Thank you for the compliment.

I just think it would be a natural reaction to actually react to what is going on istead of sitting and waiting for nothing to happen.

My parents were wonderful, and have shown me that when it comes to your children there are no boundries. Don't get me wrong, they were strict and we had rules, but now looking abock, they were for a reason, and a greatly appreciated one! IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by MiamiNice1


1) I don't know when, I was answering to your statement of that they criticized quickly in the first few months.

2) Answer same as #1

3) Aruba is a foreign country to them. Americans have trouble even doing that here in the U.S. where things are so much easier.

4) Yes, IMO, they probably thought ALL and ANY media could/would help them. It's probably what I would have thought, too, if my daughter were missing.

IMO.

Yes in regards to the media, I know there are two missing girl locally here, and their family does not get much air time, actually on girl Amanda Berry her mother was her "primary" spokesperson, and she just passed away herself, so no one really speaks on her behalf anymore, but the other girl her family use the media whenever they can, and I bet if we asked them, they too would go on day and night just to keep her name and face out there.

Its like the saying out of sight out of mind, well when see it day and night, it is not out of site or mind. ANd I think that keeps pressure on investigators to continue the search. Not just in this case but even cases here in the US.

I wish all missing children / people could get as much media coverage as Brangelina or TomKat.... but unfortunately it seems are media is bias? imo

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

It's not that they didn't have legal counsel.

If my daughter were missing, that last thing I'd want to do would be to do anything that might turn LE against me except go to a higher authority. The American tabloid media doesn't qualify as a higher authority, here, or in Aruba.

Exactly, Gregor...this was my point...imagine just HOW BAD ALE must have been for the Holloway/Twitty's to speak out publicly against them when they needed their help so desperately??er

Also, remember, they were not thinking logically....with the benefit of hindsight and the benefit of NOT having their daughter MISSING....they were grasping at whatever could help.

imo.

[julianella]

Originally posted by Laurus


No, they thought Natalee had stayed over, partying, IMO, or run away (again?). I mean why did they wait days or more to come up with the idea of kidnapping? Just because she didn't appear, isn't enough to make the leap to kidnapping, especially given that so many people saw the jello shot, and the subsequent voluntary leaving with Joran K2. Nope, no kidnapping there.

I put no, absolutely no, weight on the idea that we can judge the boys rapists and kidnappers and likely murderers because Joran mentioned things that were "uncharacteristic" of her. Her mother didn't know how she was when she was out of her sight, pure, simple truth. (Nor do any other mothers).

She waited until about September, IIRC to start saying on TV that Joran admitted to sexual assault in front of 10 people, including herself which was a lie. Where are the other 9? Why aren't they included, IIRC, in the civil suit as I believe NM or WD pointed out?

I believe Mrs. Twitty was faced with the challenge of keeping all this on TV, not exactly a novelty that a nearly 19 year old adult has disappeared or run away.

And the TV appearances became more and more lurid, supported by the TH, with starring appearances by BHT, and that this was done because the victims were foreigners that could not fight back.

IMO

Considering they never stated any of those thoughts I choose to believe that Beth really thought she was kidnapped!

And I think the prior runaway rumor has really no merit. There is nothing that has proven that, and I think with the run away bride story out there, if there was a possibility that Natalee had ran the media would have ate it up, I mean what a way to boost rating, then to actually expose the scandle in MB and not Aruba! IMO

I think a mother or father will pass judgement and their feeling on a case as they actually know the missing.....

imo

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by julianella


Yes in regards to the media, I know there are two missing girl locally here, and their family does not get much air time, actually on girl Amanda Berry her mother was her "primary" spokesperson, and she just passed away herself, so no one really speaks on her behalf anymore, but the other girl her family use the media whenever they can, and I bet if we asked them, they too would go on day and night just to keep her name and face out there.

Its like the saying out of sight out of mind, well when see it day and night, it is not out of site or mind. ANd I think that keeps pressure on investigators to continue the search. Not just in this case but even cases here in the US.

I wish all missing children / people could get as much media coverage as Brangelina or TomKat.... but unfortunately it seems are media is bias? imo

Definitely there is bias....but why begrudge those who are LUCKY enough to get the coverage. We should be happy for ANYONE who gets this.

The Holloway/Twitty's cannot be blamed for being one of the lucky ones! As with other phenomena, it took on a life of its own.

imo.

[julianella]

Originally posted by Laurus


Everyone understands, (and it's not fair at all), that not every missing person will get star coverage.

And I have nothing bad to say if one person gets more than another, it's all a media game, some win and some don't.

The part I'll never swallow is HOW she got her media coverage.

By accusing teenage foreigners of gang rape, kidnapping, predatorship, and murder. Just to stay in the headlines. With not an iota of proof. And with the goal, IMO, of sanctifying her (from what I've seen) quite normal daughter.

That's what will bug me about her, forever probably, unless I see her make some mega apologies, or some proof of her accusations is uncovered.

IMO

I think she got the coverage because of a few reasons.. #1 $$ the family is definately not poor, #2 I'd rather not say as it would be deemed by some as a racist remark.. #3 It was Aruba, and exotic island, "One big happy place" .....

About it being a media game, that is the saddest part because each of these people deserve the same coverage, but sadly I know that will never happen..

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by MiamiNice1


Definitely there is bias....but why begrudge those who are LUCKY enough to get the coverage. We should be happy for ANYONE who gets this.

The Holloway/Twitty's cannot be blamed for being one of the lucky ones! As with other phenomena, it took on a life of its own.

imo.

Oh I agree, if they get "lucky" enough to use it, then I say use it.

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

I think the only thing ALE did wrong was to allow the tabloid media to trample over Aruba's laws and customs, and cave in to the pressure the Twittys and their friends brought to bear.

I AGREE with you on this Gregor!

(Whoa...Julia....look out you window.....it just might be snowing!)

imo. :D

[julianella]

Originally posted by MiamiNice1


I AGREE with you on this Gregor!

(Whoa...Julia....look out you window.....it just might be snowing!)

imo. :D

LOL I wish, right now I feel like the little burning man icon... :cool:

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Laurus


<snipped>

That's what will bug me about her, forever probably, unless I see her make some mega apologies, or some proof of her accusations is uncovered.

IMO

Until we know exactly what did or did not happen, how can Beth possibly do a mega apology? These boys have done everything (lying) to keep the suspicion on THEM!

IF Natalee is found and it is proven that J2K had nothing to do with her murder/disappearance....then I AGREE.......Beth should apologize.

(again, Julia, it must be a BLIZZARD out there!)

BUT, if they DID do it, then Beth has every right.

imo.

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by julianella


Oh I agree, if they get "lucky" enough to use it, then I say use it.


I agree if they get lucky. I just can not abide the getting "lucky" by a scam or lying as IMOHOO the Twittys have. That is the biggest thing that sticks big time in my craw.moo

:flamemad:

edited for typo:

[MiamiNice1]

Well, guys, nice conversation. Gotta get out and do some real life!

We're USED to the wicked HEAT here in Miami - nothing new for us. As soon as you step outside, it feels like you literally breathe in water. All the store front windows (and your sunglasses) are constantly fogged up. The heat and humidity are suffocating.

:seeya:

[julianella]

Originally posted by MiamiNice1


Until we know exactly what did or did not happen, how can Beth possibly do a mega apology? These boys have done everything (lying) to keep the suspicion on THEM!

IF Natalee is found and it is proven that J2K had nothing to do with her murder/disappearance....then I AGREE.......Beth should apologize.

(again, Julia, it must be a BLIZZARD out there!)

BUT, if they DID do it, then Beth has every right.

imo.

:D

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by julianella

:D

Keep Cool! :cool:

and bye for now! :seeya:

[julianella]

Originally posted by MiamiNice1
Well, guys, nice conversation. Gotta get out and do some real life!

We're USED to the wicked HEAT here in Miami - nothing new for us. As soon as you step outside, it feels like you literally breathe in water. All the store front windows (and your sunglasses) are constantly fogged up. The heat and humidity are suffocating.

:seeya:

Nice reference to the HEAT there Miami, go ahead rub it in... lol

(I think your taking about Shack and Wade HEAT right? LOL If so Lebron is commin for em next year! LOL ) :seeya:

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by julianella


Nice reference to the HEAT there Miami, go ahead rub it in... lol

(I think your taking about Shack and Wade HEAT right? LOL If so Lebron is commin for em next year! LOL ) :seeya:

NO ONE BEATS THE HEAT! :flamemad:

:cool:

[julianella]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Then Chales Croes could possibly furnish records for Joran's phone?

That would be a good thing, I would like to see what those records actually say!

I also wonder if there were students who rented phones from Croes, were they looked at too? Were their records checked?

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by MiamiNice1


NO ONE BEATS THE HEAT! :flamemad:

:cool:

:tongue:

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Why didn't they get a little cranky when these things supposedly started happening?

Why did it take them about three months to remember they happened?

Why are we only now hearing about things that supposedly happened at the onset of the investigation.

You don't bite the hand that feeds you, until you realize that what is being fed is laced with arsenic. JMO

[treetime]

the 3 PRIME SUSPECTS will be back in JAIL soon enough

i can sense it

:D :D



BANK IT, LOCK IT UP

its GOLD Jerry :D

[treetime]

Originally posted by SukiJane


You don't bite the hand that feeds you, until you realize that what is being fed is laced with arsenic. JMO



:patriot:

[treetime]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

So it took them several months to figure out what was happening?

yes, becausae of the MOUNTAIN of LIES :D

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


LOL julia .... My air conditioner is ON !!! And I'm not turning it OFF .... lol.

ETA .... I'm running it on "Power Save" though .... will that help do you think?? ....;)

LOL I don't see why not.

[julianella]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Thank you for such a thought provoking post. I dare say many of the people involved know more than they are revealing to the public.

MOO

Was it ever confirmed if Steve and Charles were related? Also there is a Mary ann too I think? Are they all related?

[treetime]

Originally posted by GrrlPwer
I completely agree. I'm now starting to wondering if Joran was the last one to really see her. :shrug:


please advise one SHRED of EVIDENCE to suggest that
JORAN was not the last one to be seen with Natalee:D

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Why would the room be needed if Natalee was kidnapped?

Because there was hope of getting her back?

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by MiamiNice1


:seeya: Hope (waving enthusiastically) - How wonderul it is to see you!!!

How we've missed your articulate, logical and excellent posts! (what a terrific memory you have!) Our board can only be brightened by such a poster as you!

<happy dance icon>

moo.

:seeya: Miami

I'm sure you are off by now, but I just wanted to acknowledge your post.

It's been a long time, and it's good to see you too. Hope all is well. I enjoy reading your posts as always. :)

IMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by treetime



please advise one SHRED of EVIDENCE to suggest that
JORAN was not the last one to be seen with Natalee:D

Oh, he tried NOT to be the last one to have seen Natalee alive. He tried to say it was some dude dressed in dark clothes with a walkie talkie, in my opinion.

[treetime]

Originally posted by SukiJane


Oh, he tried NOT to be the last one to have seen Natalee alive. He tried to say it was some dude dressed in dark clothes with a walkie talkie, in my opinion.


YEA, thats the TICKET

he "TRIED"


it was a LOAD

is a LOAD

always will be a LOAD :D

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

I live in the sticks in Pennsylvania Dutch country. Many of my Mennonite neighbors have no electricity at all, some have it only in the barn, and I've never seen an air conditioner in any windows in any of their houses.

If I'm using too much electricity, I'm just using some my neighbors aren't, so I'm really helping the power company. They don't make any money on what little the Mennonites use.

(I should point out the Mennonites in my area belong to two or three of the more basic sects.

There are Mennonite sects that are as modern as the Lutherans or any other Protestant group.)

:eek:

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Is arsenic "slow acting"?? ;)

Given in small enough doses, I'm sure it is.

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Didn't Jody Bearman say they kept a seat on the McWane jet open for Natalee for the return trip?

Who is she? What does she know? I'm sure everyone was very hopeful during their trip to Aruba that Natalee would be found and brought back safely. It really saddens me to know that Natalee wasn't able to occupy that seat and be back at home in Alabama to finish enjoying the rest of her summer, before starting college.

I'm not sure where the confusion is here but some seem to think that nothing bad could have happened to Natalee if the family was hopeful of bringing her home. It is my opinion, that the family was praying for the best, and fearing the worst. JMO

[treetime]

when the family arrived at the house why didnt JORAN just say he left her on the beach ??

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
They had been planning the trip since February. Beth had taken the summer off to help plan for Natalee to go to college. Just imagine if Nayalee was getting married, better start planning about 5 years earrly.

For better or worse, it appears their relationship was planning everything to death. Sweet or smothering?


MOO


Some people do plan things to death, it's just part of their personalities. I think Beth and Natalee were two peas in a pod, but that's just my opinion. JMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by treetime
when the family arrived at the house why didnt JORAN just say he left her on the beach ??

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

I don't get that either...or why didn't he say the next day, or the day after that, or the day after that, and on and on and on...?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

She was on the flight to Aruba on the McWane jet.

Many say she was in Aruba with the tour.

I'd venture to say she knows more about what happened than any poster on this board.

But, would she know more than the family?

[treetime]

Originally posted by SukiJane


I don't get that either...or why didn't he say the next day, or the day after that, or the day after that, and on and on and on...?

see, the simpler that we ask the questions

the more difficult the answers become for JORAN to answer


it is a SIMPLE question

they KNEW he was with her... he KNEW people knew he was with her

why not just say

im sorry but i left her at the beach




ANSWER

BECAUSE something much more SINISTER was going on in the
BACKGROUND

:flamemad: :flamemad:

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

She could certainly know more about what happened on Aruba than the family.

Was she there, for sure?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by treetime


see, the simpler that we ask the questions

the more difficult the answers become for JORAN to answer


it is a SIMPLE question

they KNEW he was with her... he KNEW people knew he was with her

why not just say

im sorry but i left her at the beach




ANSWER

BECAUSE something much more SINISTER was going on in the
BACKGROUND

:flamemad: :flamemad:

I agree tree, and he didn't even have to say he was sorry. He could have said she was a nuisance and a real pain in the behind, stubborn as all get out, and heck he wanted know part of her Hitler related self, so he left right where she wanted to be left. Simple as that...

Yet, he chose to lie, never coming forward with the truth, until an arrest was made.

These actions point to nothing but suspicion, in my opinion. JMO

[treetime]

Originally posted by SukiJane


I agree tree, and he didn't even have to say he was sorry. He could have said she was a nuisance and a real pain in the behind, stubborn as all get out, and heck he wanted know part of her Hitler related self, so he left right where she wanted to be left. Simple as that...

Yet, he chose to lie, never coming forward with the truth, until an arrest was made.

These actions point to nothing but suspicion, in my opinion. JMO


yep, they point to nothing but INVOLVEMENT
:D

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Laurus


That's the picture that BHT portrays, but we don't know what Natalee would have said. We do have one reflection in the words of her friend, whichever it was, that referred to the Hitler's family subject.

I doubt, when there is a runaway, that many parents would say "yup, always thought she'd runaway, yes m'am". Actually I think the word runaway isn't appropriate anyway for a gal that's nearly 19.

I'm still not on the same train car as Gregor, but I think the idea of her taking off in a sudden decision is not out of reason. Or, making a decision to keep partying with someone she met on the beach that may have led either to her living somewhere else now, or meeting a fatal end because she chose the wrong people to keep partying with after she was with Joran.

IMO

Well I can't say that I can make that leap to runaway, there is less evidence of that than anything else that has been theorized in this case. You don't believe anything that Beth has told us about Natalee, but it's okay to let your imagination run wild with the party girl theory? JMO

I have seen where some missing persons have been described as possible runaways, so I assume that LE had gathered information perhaps from the family to indicate that the person could have possibly just left on their own accord. JMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

How could there be less evidence than none?

You're right, no evidence of anything according to ALE, but I count the lies of J2K, to be highly suspicious, therefore I tend to focus on the idea that they may have lied to cover something.
JMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Of course they lied to cover something. They lied to cover the fact that Joran left her alone.

If Natalee had turned up a day or two later, as many expected she would, no one would pay attention to whether or not they lied.


You're right, but unfortunately Natalee didn't show up.

I don't put a whole lot of stock in Joran's story...sure there may be some facts, but then how do we know for sure. He's not just a one time liar, he lied several times according to some, and more if you ask me, but that's just my opinion.


JMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Wouldn't they put her on the MedJet?

I would say so if she would have been injured or in need of medical attention. It seems the family had several options in case Natalee was found. JMO

[treetime]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Because that is not what a young man should do?



oh,,,,,,,,,,,,:mad:

hi LUKE

instead of saying he left her on the beach he plays DUMBS and
acts like he didnt know who she was


WHAT A LOAD that was

geeeeeeeeeeesh,

i mean really....he didnt know who she was


GAWDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD:D

[treetime]

Originally posted by T.O Jays


Joran took a shot, figuring she'd just turn up later. IMO

ah,,but why not tell the truth ?

:flamemad:

[treetime]

Originally posted by T.O Jays


I would say anything to get rid of Beth too. lol :D


naw................

he knew she was not coming back and he knew SOMETHING
BAD HAPPENED :cuss: :flamemad:

[treetime]

Originally posted by T.O Jays


You have to remember that hindsight is 20/20 . Even he he said the truth at that time its not like they would've found her there. She was long gone by then. IMO . He took a shot and I have heard him admit his mistake. IMO

admitting a mistake after you have been BAGGED

aint admitting nuttin :D :no:

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
I think some people don't know if Beth thought Natalee was missing or kidnapped.

MOO

I would say missing and kidnapped were synonymous in Beth's mind. Who knows what a mother would be thinking or saying in those first few hours of learning her child has missed their flight in another country, and hasn't been seen for hours. JMO

[treetime]

Originally posted by T.O Jays


Once again you struggle with CONTEXT. IMO. I truly don't think you'll ever get it.

i dont like LIARS

i dont like LIARS that Make up stories to BLAME others

i dont like liars that LIE and lie and lie when it comes to
missing people

STATISTICS will show that people that lie Cant be TRUSTED :D

i hate all of em that are involved and are STILL the prime suspects :D

[treetime]

Originally posted by SukiJane


I would say missing and kidnapped were synonymous in Beth's mind. Who knows what a mother would be thinking or saying in those first few hours of learning her child has missed their flight in another country, and hasn't been seen for hours. JMO

JACKPOT :D

[treetime]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Involvement in what?

the disappearance of Natalee

:flamemad:

[treetime]

Originally posted by T.O Jays


Again I don't think anyone can convince you otherwise so it really doesn't matter much. All that is important is that Joran wins the civil case and in the extremely unlikely event of a criminal case he wins that as well. Come June 9th 2007 he is no longer a "suspect" because the Prosecution has to put their money where their mouth is.

JUSTICE :rose: IMO

your idea of JUSTICE and My idea of JUSTICE are LIGHT years AWAY from each other :D

[treetime]

Originally posted by T.O Jays


That can't be true because you support Beth and she's suppose to be an adult. IMO



Beth doesnt lie

:flamemad: :flamemad: :flamemad:

[treetime]

Originally posted by T.O Jays


We will see who wins . :patriot:

the good guys win

and i got a NEWS FLASH for ya

it aint
k2 and JORAN :D

[treetime]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Ostrich alert!!!


:flamemad: :flamemad:

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

The majority of mothers, the vast majority, would think exactly what I thought when my daughter missed a flight back home.

Accident.

You could be right, but throw into the equation that the missing person was last seen in a car with 3 guys, it kind of changes things then. JMO

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Is it possible that Charles Croes has a powerful friend at the carrier?

Lincoln Gomez? Digicel?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by Laurus


I don't have to let my imagination run wild to portray Natalee as a party girl, we already know the teens were living it up, even the ACA interview had a voice over "a girl from Alabama having the time of her life".

This is not to say she was a party girl at home, and not to say she was doing anything her friends weren't, and not to say that she was doing anything a kid sent on an all-inclusive vacation wouldn't do.

And it's not true that I don't believe anything Beth says about Natalee, I do believe she got good grades, and had a lot of friends and a lot of extracurricular activities. I just don't buy the virgin-non-drinker bit. And I don't believe anyone can say their daughter would never put themselves in a car, making out, and fooling around, so it must be gang rape and kidnapping, maybe even murder. As though it is preferable to think of your daughter being raped, instead of her choosing to have some type of sexual relationship. That's sick, I think.

Sometimes really bad things happen to a family, sometimes a disappearance that forever leaves a terrible pain, but no matter what happens to you, it's not enough, IMO to justify doing terrible things to other people in revenge.

Punishment must be left to the law.

IMO

It would have been preferable to the family that Natalee would have come home safely after a night with Joran. JMO

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by Laurus


Of course, but still no excuse for what she did on tv against the boys and their families.

IMO

By the way, it was a late night couple hour long bar date, not a "night with Joran". By all accounts mutually begun and mutually ended.

IMO

What? By all accounts? Whose accounts?

The only person we heard from about how the evening ended was Joran and he did not say it was mutually ended.

He said he wanted to leave and she wanted to stay.

moo

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by Laurus


By all the accounts we have heard.

We can't count accounts we haven't heard.

IMO

We only heard one account. Joran's.

To say "by all accounts" is misleading as it implies that other people were there when their "date" ended - and according to him it was just the two of them. And he said that it did not end mutually.

Not that I believe a word he says -



moo

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Laurus


I included starting and ending in one thought. OK, here it is better: Despite how much Mrs. Twitty wants to convince the world that her daughter was kidnapped and "taken" from C&C because her defenses were down and she could not exercise free will, it's obvious to all who study this case, and to all the witnesses we have heard from that it was a simply a late night bar date, not a "night with Joran" as Suki had called it.

By all accounts the date was mutually begun and by Joran's account he wanted to end the date and she didn't, so he left her there at her own wishes. We have no other account of the end of the date.

IMO


I concur...but we do have all of Beth acounts, according to her, of how the date ended. They do change according to her mood of the day IMOO

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by Laurus


Do you remember when she said on TV, paraphrased, "the most we can hope for is that she was gang raped and that they didn't murder her when they were through with her" that's not an exact quote, but close, maybe someone has that item in case I have it wrong.

I've always wondered why she seemed to prefer that some heinous crime was committed against her daughter, instead of possibly dying without having to experience a gang rape, or dying in the ocean by accident, or having been lured or taken to another island without having been violated by many men. Why, in the view of BHT, does there have to be a gory gang rape in the scenario?

IMO


Just IMOO. Any other view would not garner the monies like the one she put out. Also IMOO she seemed to enjoy saying that whenever she told it. as she would embelish on it each time.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Laurus


I included starting and ending in one thought. OK, here it is better: Despite how much Mrs. Twitty wants to convince the world that her daughter was kidnapped and "taken" from C&C because her defenses were down and she could not exercise free will, it's obvious to all who study this case, and to all the witnesses we have heard from that it was a simply a late night bar date, not a "night with Joran" as Suki had called it.

By all accounts the date was mutually begun and by Joran's account he wanted to end the date and she didn't, so he left her there at her own wishes. We have no other account of the end of the date.

IMO

"All who study this case"? who would "all" be, Laurus?

And, what "witnesses" have you heard from? Joran? the person who has constantly lied?

Tree asked the million dollar question. If Joran had simply left Natalee on the beach, then why didn't he say that when he was approached? why did he act as if he didn't know who she was?

Perhaps he didn't admit to leaving her on the beach because he didn't want anyone looking in the beach area for Natalee because of the condition she was left in. This is why I question Charles Croes actions on the night Natalee's family arrived on the island. He knew to go to the beach. For some reason he knew where to find answers.

But, Joran kept up with his lie, he kept up with his lie until he was caught. All the while two innocent men sat in jail. You can't tell me it was a case of "being scared of telling papa he left a girl on the beach".

IMO

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Joran admitted he lied and explained why so it's not the million dollar question.

The beach WAS looked at by the MB children, non chaperones and the posse.

Ya, Charles Croes knew where the teens hung out, big deal.

The SG lie was not Joran's, why don't 2K get any of your scorn?

Actually JVDS said in his interview with Greta (part 2) that they made up the lie as they went along. So when DK mentioned the SGs he just went along with it.


moo

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by Laurus


And IIRC Jug said on NG that the security guard story came a couple days later "or whatever". But as we know, they never did mention "security guard(s)" If they had the story all planned before the posse got there, as some posters allege, then why did they give such a weak story at first, and add the guy with radio later on?

IMO

Because they were embellishing the lie.


moo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Laurus


And IIRC Jug said on NG that the security guard story came a couple days later "or whatever". But as we know, they never did mention "security guard(s)" If they had the story all planned before the posse got there, as some posters allege, then why did they give such a weak story at first, and add the guy with radio later on?

IMO

Actually I think the SG was mentioned the night the "posse" was there. I think it was said that they dropped her off at the HI and that she got out of the car fell, and someone not sure which guy tried to help her up, then she said she was fine and that is when the SG in the black shirt and walkie talkie showed up! IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Laurus .... This is a great post. I think yoo wrapped it up in a nutshell. It's too bad that some posters refuse to believe Natalee was probably "having the time of her life". They somehow twist that to "bashing Natalee" when anyone even HINTS she might have done certain things "out of character".

I agree with you totally .... no matter what bad things might happen, it's NOT enough to lash out at families, without having any proof they committed a crime. Beth has spent this last year villifying the people of Aruba, also. Her calling for a boycott was evidence of that.

GREAT post!!

JMO

I personally do not know why so many people put so much merit into the boycott. There are people that call for boycotts often and they never really seem to work, ie: the don't buy gas for a day boycott.... imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down



The Twittys' friends wandered the beach behind the hotel, showing Natalee's photo to anyone they encountered.

http://www.vanityfair.com/commentary/content/articles/060102roco01?page=3

Yep, the beach was searched by The Posse.

THen that raises another question, people looked on the beach and nothing was found, so was Natalee ever on the beach?

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down



Oh? Kinda like Beth did when she said on Tyra Banks that Deepaks car was "covered in blood" even though the blood was known to be chocolate and cleaning fluid?

There is a link where the FBI even told Beth and other members of the family that there was blood in the car, and then it was changed to cleaning fluid.

I wonder was it dried? Crusty? Does cleaning fluid harden like blood would?

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Laurus


Take a look at the 2 part appearance on NG. Maybe I'm mistaken but I think Jug did say that came a "couple of days later or whatever".

And, in response to Forensics post, the need for embellishment only goes to show it was an amateurish lie made up in haste. Natalee had disappeared 24 hours before that, surely if they had a part in her disappearance they would have thought up something more convincing.

IMO

Do you know what date for the NG interview. TIA

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down


What exactly do you or anyone else expect to find? :rolleyes:


Maybe a "beach bum" who would remember seeing her? Maybe someone who frequented the beach and that saw the girls there that week and remembered her.. the flip flops??

[dinojen]

OT...but... just thought you Nancy Grace fans would like to know.. she's a guest on The View tomorrow... along with Sally Field and Lisa somebody.. and one of those Dr. Berman's...


Wed., Aug. 2: Lisa Loeb, Sally Field, Dr. Laura Berman, Nancy Grace.


http://abc.go.com/daytime/theview/index.html

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Do beach bums and other frequent vistors of the beach remember everyone they see? Why would her flip flops necessarily be on the beach?

Well surly people remember a 'wild' group of girls....

And where would the flip flops be? I thought Joran said they took their shoes off to walk in the sand?

To Water. The boeti (sp) said he saw the gaurds at Natalees door, I do not know that he saw her on the beach. Surly he is not the only beach bum? Why would Joran assume she had left with a beach bum.

IMO

[dinojen]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Thanks for the warning! I will know to skip the view!


:lol:


Be nice... I'm not a fan either.. but I didn't say anything.. I know some people like her though.. besides I tape the show so I can fast forward through the garbage...:tongue:

[dinojen]

Originally posted by Watership Down



Lisa Loeb is a singer.


Thanks.. didn't have a clue who she was...:shrug:

[treetime]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


"All who study this case"? who would "all" be, Laurus?

And, what "witnesses" have you heard from? Joran? the person who has constantly lied?

Tree asked the million dollar question. If Joran had simply left Natalee on the beach, then why didn't he say that when he was approached? why did he act as if he didn't know who she was?

Perhaps he didn't admit to leaving her on the beach because he didn't want anyone looking in the beach area for Natalee because of the condition she was left in. This is why I question Charles Croes actions on the night Natalee's family arrived on the island. He knew to go to the beach. For some reason he knew where to find answers.

But, Joran kept up with his lie, he kept up with his lie until he was caught. All the while two innocent men sat in jail. You can't tell me it was a case of "being scared of telling papa he left a girl on the beach".

IMO

JACKPOT:patriot:

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


julia .... I don't give this particular boycott any merit either. It's the fact Beth ASKED for one that I find deplorable. How many times have you seen American citizens call for a boycott of a foreign country because their child has disappeared??

JMO


Not julia, but hope I may answer. I have been around since the "big bang", now that is old. I have never, I repeat, never heard of such a thing. Nor have I heard of another set of parents going on TV, as many times as these people have, to make such pretensions and lies.

mooo

[treetime]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
They needed to show Joran a picture of her belly button.

I saw a video of Dave checking a septic tank. I wonder if he is reading your posts.:hat:


i know he is :D

[treetime]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
They needed to show Joran a picture of her belly button.

I saw a video of Dave checking a septic tank. I wonder if he is reading your posts.:hat:

im sending more money this week :D

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Can you find that link because I don't recall the FBI making any such statement.

The FBI directly has not said anything it was the family who said the FBI said it..

Here is one, There is one more and I will still look

Back to Beth Twitty, Natalee`s mom. I want to talk to you about the prime minister`s statement, the Aruban prime minister, who went public and stated there was blood found in the car. Remember?

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes, absolutely.

GRACE: What happened?

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Absolutely. That`s what I would love to know. On June 11, he states on international media in front of me -- I had no idea what he was about to disclose -- that there was blood in the Kalpoes` vehicle, there was DNA, there was blood. Where is that? Even (INAUDIBLE) went so far to cut interior portions from the car -- the back seat, the ceiling. You know, what happened with that?

GRACE: Now, Ellie (ph), didn`t we find out later another statement was issued saying there wasn`t any blood?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly. We had heard there was never any DNA evidence of any kind retrieved from the car.

GRACE: Or no blood period.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0510/04/ng.01.html

I did not post the entire trans, to save bandwith. imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down



"Wild group of girls"? It was only Joran and Natalee so I don't know where you are getting that. If you are saying she was never on the beach then her friends disagree with you.

Boeti said he saw Natalee on the beach going back to her room and at a time after she was with Joran.

If you read my post I stated that maybe someone would have also remembered her from the week that she and her friends were on the beach, not necessarily that night!

imo

[dinojen]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


julia .... I've never seen that link. The FBI told members of the family there was blood in the car??


I thought it went from blood to chocolate....????

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


As I said yesterday, WD. I can't get my head around this .... julia is looking at the fact there is no evidence of anything as Natalee not being on the beach. She doesn't seem to consider there might not have been any crime!!!

JMO


WEll I have a hard time believeing this girl just vanished off the face of this earth. No sightings, No ransom, no nothing. Oh wait I forgot there was that "letter" sent to PVDS for whatever reason in which he tried to pass off as Natalees, claiming she ran away...wonder what ever happened to that? Where was it postmarked, Why did PVDS get it? That is interesting!

imo

I do not believe they were on the beach. imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down



I read and quoted your post. You did not say that.


Originally posted by julianella


Well surly people remember a 'wild' group of girls....

And where would the flip flops be? I thought Joran said they took their shoes off to walk in the sand?

To Water. The boeti (sp) said he saw the gaurds at Natalees door, I do not know that he saw her on the beach. Surly he is not the only beach bum? Why would Joran assume she had left with a beach bum.

IMO


ETA. We were discussing what would be found on the beach to indicate she was there that last night, not anytime during the prior week.

THis was the original conversation...
julianella
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4766

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Watership Down


What exactly do you or anyone else expect to find?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Maybe a "beach bum" who would remember seeing her? Maybe someone who frequented the beach and that saw the girls there that week and remembered her.. the flip flops??


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I said that week. A witness that could say hey she was with this person, or Oh I saw her and she was fine, just anything at all. Nto necessarily pertaining to that night!

IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by dinojen



I thought it went from blood to chocolate....????
Yes I think it was blood, the chocolate, then cleaning fluid. Now Does anyone know if cleaning fluid hardens like Blood? I am curious, Usually when blood or chocolate for that matter dries it hardens becaomes almost crusty depending on the amount...does cleaning fluid? The stuff I use is greasy almost, and maybe sticky, but never hard or crusty!

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


cc .... You can respond to my posts ANYTIME .... ;)

julia had mentioned something about boycotts happening "often" .... :shrug:

JMO

ANd I gave an example! Like the gas boycott, or the don't call FRECH fries FRENCH... there are more. As for other countries, I do not know, I can research. IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


nm .... If ANYONE has this link, I would bet you would .... ;)

Wasn't there a link posted recently where a spokesperson from the FBI lab in Quantico, VA. stated it was NOT blood in the car??

JMO

Not NM but here is another..

VAN SUSTEREN: Why was it heated on August 28?

TWITTY: Because I think I was asking questions that she didn’t know that I knew about, things that she wouldn’t tell me and I was confronting her with, you know, things like the blood in the car. If you’ll remember, way early on in the investigation, even the prime minister came and said, Yes, they found blood in the car. The FBI said they found blood in the car. She says they didn’t. She says they — I know for a fact that they cut parts out of the seat, cut parts out of the ceiling of Deepak’s car, and they sent them wherever to get tested. And she said no. Initially, the FBI said there was blood all over the car, but then they came back and said now it’s cleaning fluid. And I went ballistic in the meeting. And you know, there are a lot of other things that I went ballistic on because she’s so vague on everything that she tells you. You know, here’s a perfect example, when she hasn’t communicated with Beth in a month. So another...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170678,00.html

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

People who run off don't generally send ransom demands.

They don't want to be found, remember?

Please tell me where the drunk passprtless Natalee Holloway could have ran?

[julianella]

Originally posted by redjetta


What difference would it make if it did harden?
Well by the time they searched the car it had to of been dry right? So I am curious what kind of cleaning fluid looks like blood?
Or chocolate for that matter?

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down



We are discussing the night she disappeared. You keep saying over and over again that there is no evidence she was at the beach that night. It is dark at night and I doubt anyone would be able to identify a person on the beach unless they had direct contact with that person. I definitely don't think they could identify a girl laying on the beach making out with a guy.

Right and if there were witnesses who maybe remember her and her frined from that week perhaps they would remember behaviors or who was with then, such as locals? Boys? stuff like that.

IMO

[julianella]

While the family is being assured early Saturday that no body has been recovered, they did tell NBC13 that the FBI had reportedly discovered some type of blood evidence in one of the cars impounded as part of the investigation. Results of a DNA test are not yet available.

http://www.nbc13.com/news/4589372/detail.html

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


LOLOL julia .... I think YOU'RE thinking about the dinner you're NOT cooking .... FRENCH FRIES ????? lmaooo

JMO

LOLOLOLO Nope not cookin, it isn't snowin yet!

but that does sound good....hmmm Thank fair! lololol

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

You can believe she was drunk if you want, I don't.

She could have had a fake passport, or consider this. We only have Beth's word that her passport was in her room. I never saw it, did you.

If Beth didn't want anyone to know Natalee ran off, she'd say she had Natalee's passport, but she never let a camera zoom in on it, to my knowledge.

Gregor I really do respect your theories, but I just cannot buy them.

Are you now saying she was not drinking all day? I mean by all accounts she was drinking and doind shots, I seriously feel that girl was feelin no pain (no pun intended)

I do not feel she on her own has tricked the entire world. I do not think she had a fake passport, heck I could never get a fake ID let alone passport. Especially since 9 11 I bet these things are really looked into.

No I have not seen the passport, but never has the ALE said it was not there! IMO

:shrug:

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


julia .... Did you read the link from WD, where the spokesperson from the FBI said it was NOT blood in the car??

JMO

Yes fair I read it thanks, and thank you WD. My point before was that the family said that first it was blood and then it was changed to cleaning fluid... I just find it a stretch. The color of Deepaks car was a lighter interior right...so I don't know how the two can be mistaken, not just in color but in texture??

IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


I would think it would be difficult to mistake cleaning fluid for blood. But chocolate is something else. You know when blood dries, it turns sort of brown. It's not really bright red. Also when chocolate dries, it does become sort of crusty/hard. It's certainly enough for me though, that the FBI said it WASN'T blood.

JMO

Yes chocolate I can see, but cleaning fluid I can't.

imo

but I am no CSI!!

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Did Natalee look drunk on the video of her in the casino?

ALE has never corrected anything that Beth said that wasn't true.

I believe she planned to run off and prepared for it, and I believe she had help from a few of her friends and someone else.

If she really left he passport behind, it wouldn't be an insurmountable problem.

Dompig has corrected Beth about certain statements she has made!

[julianella]

Originally posted by Laurus


No wonder the FBI didn't want her at the meeting with Bacchus, she quotes them saying things they never said. As far as I can see from this conversation all the FBI ever said was it wasn't blood. It was Mrs. Twitty name dropping, and saying what she thought the FBI should be saying.

IMO

Beth is not the only one

[cassidy]

Originally posted by julianella


Dompig has corrected Beth about certain statements she has made!

Dompig has made some questionable statements himself.

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down



I can't remember any other case where the FBI's word was questioned because it came from "a source". :shrug:

The FBI were questioned before. not that I do not have faith in them, but they have been questioned. As a matter of fact I know it does not releate to this case but wasn't there question between the FBI and CIA having a disbute because of not sharing info re: 9 11?

imo

Like I said I am no CSI, but I have a hard time not being able to tell cleaning fluid from blood.

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by cassidy


Dompig has made some questionable statements himself.

Yes now that I can agree with.

I can say that everyone in this case has made some questionable statements...

imo

[cassidy]

Originally posted by julianella


The FBI were questioned before. not that I do not have faith in them, but they have been questioned. As a matter of fact I know it does not releate to this case but wasn't there question between the FBI and CIA having a disbute because of not sharing info re: 9 11?

imo

Like I said I am no CSI, but I have a hard time not being able to tell cleaning fluid from blood.

imo

Maybe this will help. You have chocolate on your car seat. You clean it with a fluid. A swatch is sent for testing and the results are cleaning fluid AND chocolate because both seeped into the material. You don't see the chocolate, but it is still there in the fibers.

[cassidy]

Originally posted by julianella


Yes now that I can agree with.

I can say that everyone in this case has made some questionable statements...

imo

LOL that's the understatement of the year! I can't recall anyone who hasn't made a statement that made me go HUH?

[julianella]

Originally posted by cassidy


Maybe this will help. You have chocolate on your car seat. You clean it with a fluid. A swatch is sent for testing and the results are cleaning fluid AND chocolate because both seeped into the material. You don't see the chocolate, but it is still there in the fibers.

Yes WD gave me a good explaination, but the way it seemed was that it was visible. I don't know, I just find it odd. IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by cassidy


LOL that's the understatement of the year! I can't recall anyone who hasn't made a statement that made me go HUH?

Honestly if it weren't for photos I would not know if I could believe there was a Natalee Holloway! THis whole case is mind blowing! I think that keeps the interest by some! I know it does for me!

I am waiting for something explosive to errupt at any minute...imo

[cassidy]

Originally posted by Watership Down



I suggested she experiment with some chocolate and 409 on some unwanted cloth. :)

Anyhow, the FBI spokeswoman said it was chocolate and cleaning fluid. No blood. I'll take her word on it. I would doubt she'd be in on the conspiracy, she wouldn't have a reason to be :)

[julianella]

Well I hope you all have a good evening. See you tomm....

:seeya:

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down



I would bet all that I own that if the FBI had said it was blood the same people wouldn't be questioning the results. ;)
One more, if the FBI said it was blood and the holland people said it wasn't...what then? Then there would be questions... maybe not by the G side...but surly the NG side???


:D

[julianella]

Originally posted by julianella

One more, if the FBI said it was blood and the holland people said it wasn't...what then? Then there would be questions... maybe not by the G side...but surly the NG side???


:D

I know I am quoting myself but wanted to add, if at first they said it wasn't blood, but then changed it to blood, I can imagine there would be questions......


imo

[cassidy]

Originally posted by julianella

One more, if the FBI said it was blood and the holland people said it wasn't...what then? Then there would be questions... maybe not by the G side...but surly the NG side???


:D

But they didn't. FBI says not blood. But even if they had found blood, they'd have to do further testing to determine just whose blood it was.

[ebnrsg1]

Originally posted by julianella


Gregor I really do respect your theories, but I just cannot buy them.

Are you now saying she was not drinking all day? I mean by all accounts she was drinking and doind shots, I seriously feel that girl was feelin no pain (no pun intended)

I do not feel she on her own has tricked the entire world. I do not think she had a fake passport, heck I could never get a fake ID let alone passport. Especially since 9 11 I bet these things are really looked into.

No I have not seen the passport, but never has the ALE said it was not there! IMO

:shrug:
Julianella. i respect your views but just thought that you would want to know some info I heard on Fox news just this evening. There is a report out that the border patrol flunked miserably in a test on both borders at identifying suspicious Documents. They did a check and they did not identify the documents nor ask for further id. They ( the border patrol) stated that there were over 2000 different documents that they need to be familiar with and to stop every susp. document holder and ask for further id would seriously slow down the process of getting thru the checkpoints.
With that in mind it makes it somewhat easier to speculate that a copy of or fradulent passport may not have been out of the question. Not saying that did happen but saying it is easier to believe that it could have after that report

[ebnrsg1]

Originally posted by cassidy


Maybe this will help. You have chocolate on your car seat. You clean it with a fluid. A swatch is sent for testing and the results are cleaning fluid AND chocolate because both seeped into the material. You don't see the chocolate, but it is still there in the fibers.

Oops sorry to reinterate your idea . I did not see your post before sending mine. It is nice to know that we are thinking alike though :)

[ebnrsg1]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Oh absolutely we would learn something just as we did with the current filings. Anything from the investigation file is welcome in my book no matter what the subject matter is.

I understood JoeT to say he was suing someone in the media. I hope it's Nancy Grace :D

Yes she sometimes decides someone is guilty or not guilty without benefit of anything except her decision but do you think he will actually sue her? He has appeared on her show in other cases and I thought they were friends as she usually does not invite back people that she does not like. I kind of wish he would sue her substitute. the man with the pony tail . He is a source of irritation to me :)

[treetime]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Well that's it. I withdraw my support of Joran, he FAILED as a predator and now this. He's the godfather and he can't find someone to do the cleanup. What a complete fraud:cuss:

glad to see you have come to your senses

welcome to the GOOD SIDE :D

[treetime]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


If Joran was the last known person to be with Natalee, how could her blood be in Deepak's car.

:confused:

cause she was in the car at some point that evening


:D

[treetime]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


Bleeding?? Um... I don't think so.

;)

she tripped getting out of the car PER JORAN'S OWN WORDS


:D

wanna try again ?
:biggrin:

[treetime]

Originally posted by Unperson1984


That's my point. What is the cohesive story as to how Joran is the guilty party, but there is blood evidence in Deepak's car.

:shrug:

joran was in the car

natalee was in the car

k2 were in the car

what is difficult to undersand about this


maybe i can KELP you :biggrin:

[treetime]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
How would you like to be trying to help someone and they go balistic? I think if I was ALE and saw Beth coming I would take a Frosted Flakes break!

MOO

you think JUG went BALLISTIC ?



you should see me in ACTION


i take NO PRISONERS

they made the MOVIE "Man On FIRE" about me :patriot:

[cassidy]

Originally posted by Hey Paula


Do you seriously believe that Aruba could produce so much crucial "misinformation", e.g., blood, which turned to chocoate and Natalee being confirmed dead, following her body having been found?

No actually I don't believe that Aruba could do all of that. I believe that the media got little bits of information and made them into big bits of information and reported them all wrong. I believe that sources were not confirmed so information that was faulty was released and not by anyone who was in a position to release such information. And finally I believe that not everyone who heard all of this garbage actually believes that it is true. But some do.

IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back
Since somebody has to start somewhere this morning, I'll start by asking about Natalee's passport.

When Beth did the interview from the motel room, did she ever open the passport so the camera could zoom to show Natalee's name or picture?

Other than that interview, did Beth ever show the passport again?

"Police discount the possibility she left the island, because they found her passport in her hotel room, van der Straaten said."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158485,00.html

From Dave's book I do believe..

"They wanted us to believe that those words were an indication that our daughter had been planning to leave of her own free will and that she needed to get away. Natalee had disappeared, leaving every one of her possessions, including her passport, behind in a hotel room. Their hypothesis simply does not make sense. She is not the type of person to be so irresponsible as to deliberately miss a plane flight home without a word. Not my Natalee!"
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1819038&page=3

[court~critic1®]

IMOHOO now it is time for Paulus and atts. to go after the TH in the USA. Like Nancy Grace, Greta, and etc. For doing the same thing he was awarded the monies for in Aruba.

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Yes, I believe that is the max that can be claimed by a single party.


Isn't his family sueing also? I believe they are. So maybe they will be awarded the same amount. At least I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Have a safe one nm

ps' right now I am doing the happy dance and singing "Oh Happy Day" :biggrin:

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom
That was June 3rd. That was AFTER Beth had been to the room.

Natalee did not leave her packed bags and passport in the room.

But like I said, those articles have been proclaimed as proof Natalee didn't run away and was packed, zipped up and ready to go home.

The point is again someone other then Beth said it! It states the police found the passport!

[julianella]

Originally posted by chambord



The family??? How could the family sue when Joran is still declared a suspect? I would think he would have to be released as a suspect first, similar to PVDS before any suit could be intiiated. And if you remember, when Joran applied to the court for a change of status, it was denied.

moo

Yes he was denied. :seeya:

[cassidy]

From the same link:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158485,00.html

I found the 1st paragraph to be very interesting. Mrs Twitty is pleading for help from the State Dept and they issue a statement that help is already there including FBI involvement? Strange.

IMO

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by chambord



The family??? How could the family sue when Joran is still declared a suspect? I would think he would have to be released as a suspect first, similar to PVDS before any suit could be intiiated. And if you remember, when Joran applied to the court for a change of status, it was denied.

moo

IIRC Paulus does have a wife and another son. So Joran is not his only family. IF Joran is included then that may be why it is taking so long to be heard. Could be they are waiting until next June. moo

[julianella]

Robin Holloway, said Natalee was last seen with a local resident who claimed to be a foreign exchange student.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158485,00.html

I wonder if this is what Beth was referring to when she said Joran tried to lie about who he was? imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom
But everything out of Aruba is a lie :shrug:

Not everything!

Never said everything!

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom
How do you know what to pick and choose?

I listen to what is said, and then see if something changes...

How about you? How do you pick and choose?

:shrug:

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

I wonder how the passport got back into the room for police to find it.

What is interesting and revealing is the following, from the same link:

Though bound by the Privacy Act from commenting too much on the case of missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway (search), spokesman Sean McCormack said State Department officials learned of her disappearance in the Caribbean resort island on June 1 and is doing what it can to assist the family, FOX has learned.

"Natalie's family have arrived in Aruba. And a consular officer from Curacao is in Aruba at this time and is in contact with the family," McCormack said in a statement. "We are making sure that we provide all possible assistance to the family and local authorities."

He added that the Federal Bureau of Investigation is also in Aruba "cooperating with local authorities in the search effort."

So the State Department and the FBI were involved as early as June 1st.

I'll admit I didn't bother to check what Dave's book had to say.

The FBI were involved I do believe from the beginning. Which is interesting also. I mean she went missing on the 30th right, so what 48 hours later the FBI is involved? Pretty fast if you ask me, especially considering there was "no evidence a crime was commited"!

According to I think it was Paul Lilly, the passport was passed out, and I think were put with her luggage in case she showed up late! IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Unfortunately, Robin doesn't mention where she got this tidbit of information.

But it would back up Beths claim that Joran tried to pas himslef off as someone else...

Something I have been thinking about, Joran says Natalee wanted to see Jorans "big house"....but Jorans house is not that "big" is it? Not as big as Lorenzos... the rumored Rave Party thrower! imo

[cassidy]

Originally posted by chambord


cassidy, see this is what's confusing, I don't think anyone really knows just what involvement the FBI had. Depending on what you read or where, they were observing, advising ,assisting, counciling. A whole myraid of what part they played, but I don't believe any of us know positively just how much they REALLY partcipated.



moo


cooperating can mean many things.

The only thing I found confusing about that was the fact that Mrs Twitty was pleading for more more help from the US government and both the State Dept and the FBI were already there and doing all they could to assist the family. I believe the FBI participated to the extent that they were allowed by Aruban law.

IMO

[court~critic1®]

Ahhh....way back in the begining there were many, many, many, people on here that said that the FBI were not involved and they were having a fit. Of course back then we could not dispute or show different , if we did then we took the chance of being banned. MOO


I am so glad the board has change for the better and we all are allowed to express our opines.imooo


PS: the links have now been deleted so I can not provide them.

[julianella]

Here is an article on the FBI's involvement, kinda tells what they are doing with this case..

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159711,00.html

[julianella]

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

(SNIP)
If he had said he was an exchange student, he couldn't very well take her to his house.

EXACTLY!

WHy didn't they go in Jorans home? Why did Lorenzo's name come up sooo earily on in this case?

Joran has his own apartment, if he was intending of having sex with Natalee, alone, why didn't he just go there? Why did he have to try and think of where to take her?

imo

[julianella]

Here is an interesting statement from Dave:

But the FBI and the police have indicated to us, over a month ago, that they're looking into this case as a murder case."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/25/lkl.01.html

Wonder what would lead them to believe that with no evidence at all.....

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


From your link, julia .... Remember, we were talking about this last night??

**Aruban officials did ask the FBI, however, to analyze a DNA sample from the backseat of one of the suspect's cars to see if it was Holloway's blood. The blood was flown to the FBI crime lab in Quantico, Va., but tests came back negative for blood.**

JMO

Yes Fair I seen that...

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Obviously he didn't want her in his home or the akwardness of his freinds waiting for them to uh, finish.

Why wouldn't they drop them off there like they did at the "beach"?

I mean they were kinda "waiting" for him to finish then too, if they had to go back and pick him up?

They supposedly pulled in front of the house, why didn't they go in?

[cassidy]

Originally posted by chambord



And that's what I believe also..however, their "partcipation" was very limited.

moo

But they did observe. I just don't think that if they had seen anything odd going on Bacchus would have made the comments that he made in his press conference. While he (Bacchus) didn't release the information he got, he did indicate that the FBI was OK with the investigation.

IMO

[treetime]

Originally posted by court~critic1®
IMOHOO now it is time for Paulus and atts. to go after the TH in the USA. Like Nancy Grace, Greta, and etc. For doing the same thing he was awarded the monies for in Aruba.


never happen

JOE =LOAD:D

[treetime]

28 thousand more for JOE T in the defending of JORAN


way to go JOE :rolleyes:

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by chambord



And I wonder just what "one sample" they chose to send. Why not all.


imo

This is what has bothered me about this sample. Was it ever stated who actually took the sample, I'm assuming it was part of the interior of the car...was it a swatch of material from the seat, or headliner? JMO

[cassidy]

Originally posted by chambord



I have always had questions regarding Bacchus' statement. What else could he possibly say? Do you realize what an uproar it would cause, if he said otherwise. IMO, he was being diplomatic. Besides that, the Aruban contigent was a stacked, agenda driven group. (Arlene Schipper, for one, was very good at PR). I am of the mind that Bacchus was not given all the information, I can't imagine that Aruban group telling Bacchus anything detrimental about their investigation. They provided Bacchus with just enough, to get him to say, what they wanted him to say.


moo

Did they make him hold a press conference? I watched the video, from his statements he seemed to be satisfied with what he heard. Everyone can't be in on the "conspiracy" can they? :shrug:

[cassidy]

Originally posted by SukiJane


This is what has bothered me about this sample. Was it ever stated who actually took the sample, I'm assuming it was part of the interior of the car...was it a swatch of material from the seat, or headliner? JMO

You're right. ALE probably cut out a swatch, rubbed chocolate on it then cleaned it and sent it off to the FBI for analysis. The whole time thinking HA HA..did we ever fool THEM!

Sheeesh!

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by julianella
Robin Holloway, said Natalee was last seen with a local resident who claimed to be a foreign exchange student.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158485,00.html

I wonder if this is what Beth was referring to when she said Joran tried to lie about who he was? imo

This from the above link:

There was one murder and six rapes last year and two murders and three rapes this year. But all the rapes were committed by local men against local women. The two murders involved drug addicts who died in knife fights.

I'm curious, since they had 6 rapes in 2004, and 3 rapes by June 2005, if after all the arrests in 2005...were there other rapes reported for that year?

[court~critic1®]

Originally posted by cassidy


Did they make him hold a press conference? I watched the video, from his statements he seemed to be satisfied with what he heard. Everyone can't be in on the "conspiracy" can they? :shrug:


According to some on here everyone, and I do mean everyone, is in on the "conspiracy" except for Beth and her ilk. moo

[julianella]

Originally posted by SukiJane


This from the above link:

There was one murder and six rapes last year and two murders and three rapes this year. But all the rapes were committed by local men against local women. The two murders involved drug addicts who died in knife fights.

I'm curious, since they had 6 rapes in 2004, and 3 rapes by June 2005, if after all the arrests in 2005...were there other rapes reported for that year?

I wonder about the crimes that have happened since Natalee's disappearance. Some pretty gruesome ones... The beheaded guy found in the car, the burning mutilated Bartender in the cave....

[julianella]

Originally posted by court~critic1®



According to some on here everyone, and I do mean everyone, is in on the "conspiracy" except for Beth and her ilk. moo

I am sorry to ask but have have seen this a few times now, but what does ilk mean? TIA

[treetime]

Originally posted by chambord



Nah, the 28K is for the casinos.

moo

silly me


you are correct :biggrin:

[treetime]

Originally posted by chambord



I agree, tree. It would open up a whole can of worms, and right about now IMO, Aruba wants silence and this case to go away. I feel badly that it will never be solved, for the Natalee family, and the decent people of Aruba.


moo

ohh,,, have no fear

it will be solved

i can sense it :D

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


julia .... If I were to talk about Me, and others of my ilk, it means generally, others LIKE me.

JMO

Ok thanks, I was lost on that one!

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by cassidy


You're right. ALE probably cut out a swatch, rubbed chocolate on it then cleaned it and sent it off to the FBI for analysis. The whole time thinking HA HA..did we ever fool THEM!

Sheeesh!



Make fun all you want, but chain of custody is extremely important in any case regarding DNA samples. Well it is here in the states, maybe not so much in Aruba, since they can judge just by looking at something whether it should be tested or not...ie the belt. JMO

[cassidy]

Originally posted by SukiJane




Make fun all you want, but chain of custody is extremely important in any case regarding DNA samples. Well it is here in the states, maybe not so much in Aruba, since they can judge just by looking at something whether it should be tested or not...ie the belt. JMO

And you know the belt wasn't tested because....???

[cassidy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chambord
[B]


It was deemed too old .




And is it totally impossible that is was too old? Is it at all possible that ALE could tell from it's condition that it had been out in the elements far to long to be of any value as evidence?

[cassidy]

Originally posted by SukiJane




Make fun all you want, but chain of custody is extremely important in any case regarding DNA samples. Well it is here in the states, maybe not so much in Aruba, since they can judge just by looking at something whether it should be tested or not...ie the belt. JMO

And how do you know they didn't follow a chain of evidence? What if an FBI agent was present as the swatch was cut and hand delivered it to the lab in the USA?