old Discussion 7/30-8/9/06 [Archive] - Page 3 - Crime Library Message Boards

dinojen

08-04-2006, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by T.O Jays

Oh Geeez , I've seen all that before! lol. When does Beth make her next guest appearance? Probably tonight I guess? N.Y better buckle up for a boycott! IMO:tongue:

Man... my dvr will only tape so much at a time.. and I got the golf on right now...hmmm... decisions.... I know what I will be doing at 9 though.. Monk, Monk, Monk...

Hmmm might have to watch Greta real quick though.. don't think I have enough Vodka and OJ to watch Nancy.. so guess I will have to stick with just Greta...and then just check back here for news...
LOL

dinojen

08-04-2006, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by chambord

If you look at the judge's ruling released yesterday, its typed throught including the month of Aug. with a blank for the day, which was handwritten. I find that curious. Why handwritten?

moo

Maybe JT has the judge in his pocket.. or she's got a time share in Aruba.. and is afraid of losing rentals...:confused:

dinojen

08-04-2006, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Heyes

Simply, I understand your post completely. There are a few on here that seem to enjoy the victims mom's pain, that tends to fuel my fire and then I end up posting. I and many, many others are well aware that this was a ruling regarding venue only and joran and his 2 buddies are still the prime suspects. We're not going to just forget this, People have taken natalee and her family in their hearts. This will never go away totally for joran and his family. I'm sure it will with the kalpoes (which is a shame). But, they were smart enough to keep their mugs off camera and listened to their attorney. I would bet we haven't seen the end of the VDS's. Since aruba will never solve this. I expect joran to start his interview circuit about the beginning of next june.

Your so wrong.. I wouldn't be surprised if you hear very little from any of the VDS family again.. I don't expect to see them do any interview circuit .. possibly one interview if and when Joran is cleared by the Aruba courts.. but I don't think he will ever come to the states again for an interview and quite frankly I wouldn't blame him... jmo

ebnrsg1

08-04-2006, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by julianella

Yess but is it about the actual money or is it about setting the record straight?

I do not think this SUIT was about $$, as I said I think the primary reason was to get information that they do not get access to! imo

Julianella
My take on what Gregor is trying to say is that the florins in Aruba would only be awarded if there is a sucessful conviction. Therefore there Would be the assumption that no more information would be needed. If one is convicted there would be no need to have the additional info. so therefore the florins would not be considered an effort for more info but rather a monetary award. JMO

dinojen

08-04-2006, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by Heyes

I may be wrong, I really hope so, I really don't want to see him again unless it's on the stand. But I also may be right. He does have a book deal coming out, And he's never met an interviewer he doesn't like.

Yes he's been interviewed so many times, I believe it was maybe twice.. I won't comment on the book because I haven't seen a reputable report that he is actually writing one..

Greta interviewed him...and he was followed in Aruba by a camera crew who asked him questions..

I hope we don't hear from him again..and I hope he can finish school and his family can be left alone by the american media..

If there is evidence convict him...if not leave him alone... jmo

dinojen

08-04-2006, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Narcissist15
Hmmmmm....thinking....wondering if the suit had been heard.....

yeah......like there is gloating on here in comparison to if the cards fell in the other direction...

:D

I wouldn't call it gloating.. I call it justice..
There is no way a foreign citizen should of been brought to court in New York, when none of the participants in the filing even lived in New York and just for the filing alone.. the filing was full of accusations that they had no proof of... no gloating.. none.. I know they are grieving for their daughter...but you can't accuse people of things like they had been doing for months without evidence... it's very simple..

dinojen

08-04-2006, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Heyes

You forgot to mention that one little time he flew to new york after his parents and attorney told him it wouldn't be a good idea. I can remember his mom near panic in the cab trying to get to him before he flew in. And look what happened that time!
Good ole bo crazy man was there to greet him.
Maybe he's started listening? naw.

Hmmm that would be two interviews in the states.. one with Greta and one with I believe it was one of the nightly news shows.. can't remember which one.. and the other one was in Holland by Inside Edition and that one wasn't planned.

What teenage boy wouldn't be hard headed enough after being accused nightly in the american media of murder, rape and multiple other things want to defend himself even if he was told not to...makes sense to me to want to defend myself, especially if I knew I was innocent.

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by fairmaiden

Well .... Hello Hope ....

I happen to think Joran's lies mean different things to different people. I suppose it depends on whether or not someone thinks he is responsible for Natalee's disappearance .... or, more correctly, that he is responsible for kidnapping, raping, and probably murdering Natalee.

I'm not "avoiding" the question of why he lied, Hope. I can't ANSWER it. What I've always said is .... just BECAUSE he lied, that doesn't mean he committed horrendous crimes.

I'm satisfied with the fact the Prosecutor in this case, has said there is no evidence to CHARGE Joran with anything.

I think the idea of corruption, or a coverup isn't feasible. I DON'T think PVDS had that much "clout", that LE Agencies, including the FBI, governments, would participate in any kind of coverup .... PLUS, I think SOMEONE would have said something by now .... with as much attention as this case has gotten.

What concerns ME JUST as much as Joran's lies .... was the attempt to manufacture evidence on the part of Dr. Phil and Skeeter. On the other hand .... that doesn't seem to concern you.

Like I said Hope .... this case, and its ramifications, means different things to different people.

JMO

Let's see, what could Joran's lies mean, hmm.......(thinking) could they have meant that he didn't want anyone to go to the beach area? (if that's where he left Natalee, and I don't think it is).

Could his lies have meant that he was scared of his Papa because he left Natalee on the beach, but yet told him he snuck out of the house to gamble THAT night, and supposedly the NEXT night? and yet the lie continued for over a week?

Could he have lied because he was confronted by the family and the authorities and didn't know what else to say? but yet he embellished the story, implicated innocent people and allowed the investigation of a MISSING GIRL to be led in the wrong direction for over a week until he was caught?

I mean any which way you look at it, it doesn't look innocent, does it? In fact, it looks like he was lying to cover up for the truth.

Of course there wasn't no evidence by the time Joran was FINALLY arrested 10 days later. He was allowed to roam free while two other men sat in jail after their homes were searched, and their vehicles impounded, all the while the ALE knew full well Joran Van der Sloot had lied about dropping Natalee Holloway back at her hotel.

You don't call that a cover-up? I say differently. I also say that those two men would still be sitting in that jail cell today if it wasn't for Natalee's family and the media.

I never once said the FBI would ever participate in a "cover-up", as I don't think they were EVER privy to any facts in this case that could implicate Joran. It is my opinion the FBI was allowed to "observe", and that was the extent of their involvement. They were kept at a distance, just the way the ALE wanted it.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Narcissist15

Okay......and why did the FBI lie to the American public about their involvement then?

What involvement would that be?

dinojen

08-04-2006, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Heyes

your right, when he talks he just looks so smug and he tries that innocent look which I happen to think he practiced in the mirror.
forhead raised up, eyes wide and blinking, just like a cartoon. lol

Yeah that smug look will get you everytime...kind of like the look all the MB "children" have on their faces in the photos all over the internet...

I still say Natalee's "friends, and I say that loosely" know more than they are saying... right Frannie...

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by Heyes

Hope,you can speak for me any day! you say everything I feel about this case.
Your absolutely right! Those SG's would have been in jail for natalee's murder if it wasn't for Beth and friends.
Joran would have never told the "truth" had he not been caught.
Natalee can be very proud of her parents. Her mom is a tiger, she has uncovered so much that joran and aruba tried to hide.
I will never forget Dave searching for his baby in the landfill.

Thank you, Heyes.

I do believe everything I posted. It is the truth that the ALE knew full well that Natalee had never been returned to that hotel when those security guards were arrested. And they also knew that Joran van der Sloot had lied, but he was allowed to roam free.

Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway never gave up fighting for their daughter. I think there is still much we will learn about what they went through.

IMO

dinojen

08-04-2006, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

Well yes, the people who just happened to watch this on cable TV knew nothing about the case, and saw Mrs. Twitty up there saying things that we've never allowed anyone else to say before, but heck, they are just foreigners so no one objected.

So most people that heard about the case thought there was evidence to back up all those allegations. (There wasn't).

Now, yes, I believe with the nearly 300 wire stories out now on the dismissal of the civil suit, and with the awarding of the fee to PVDS, I do believe those same people who were swayed while they watched cable TV, will be thinking that the dismissal is an exoneration.

Publicity works both ways, first it worked in Twitty's favor, now the ball is in someone else's court.

IMO

Well said Laurus...

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by simply quiet
Not that anyone cares....but the reason I seldom visit this forum anymore is because of most of the above posts.

You guys are getting your jollys off because Natalee's family lost this case. It was a long shot, but it was an attempt to get some answers.

You guys are gearing up to see when Beth will be on again, you squak because she's on tv too much, you complain when she is not on TV. Now you can't wait to see her. Yikes.

Why? To see her pain? To give you something to talk about? Will her hair look ok?

Of any case I have ever followed on CTV.....I have never seen a victim's family treated so badly day after day by the same few here. I have never seen a victim so disrespected, let alone her family.

Poor Natalee...trust me, there are more in this world who care about Natalee then the few here that couldn't care less about Natalee, they just like to bat down her MOM.

All of this is IMO

:rose:

I care, and so do a great many people. Your post was heart felt, and I just wanted to tell you I enjoyed reading it.

IMO

:rose:

dinojen

08-04-2006, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by chambord

Why target Frannie, she was only a classmate of Natalee's.? How did she become a target? Aren't you glad that your daughter is not being "dissed" like this poor girl has been for over a yearon publec message boards. A girl who spent little time with Natalee the night she disappeared and was off doing her thing with her beau. Yet she is attacked for her $$$, her looks, her expressions, her geneology. What does any of that have to do with this. Why such vitrol tossed towards an 18 yr old kid that is a stranger to you?

moo

Only a classmate of Natalee's.. that's not how she portrayed it in her interviews...:confused:

Personally I don't believe anything any of the MB'ers say.. with the exception of one.. and I have never learned her name.. but Greta interviewed her.. she seemed to be the only one that wasn't afraid to say what she really thought and what really happened while they were on their senior trip.. JMO...

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 10:11 PM

treetime

08-04-2006, 10:14 PM

im a little tired of people saying there is NO EVIDENCE that
implicates JORAN and K2

myself, i consider the MULTIPLE LIES and BLAMING of others by JORAN and K2 EVIDENCE of trying to throw the SCENT off themselves and onto others,, , pretty damning

cause, the black security guards may still be in JAIL and CONVICTED of something unless what unfolded UNFOLDED

know what i mean ?

so, go ahead and keep saying there is NO EVIDENCE if it makes
you happy,, i aint BUYING it

they shouldnt be selling it

:flamemad:

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Heyes

So your insulting anyone that watches a cable show, they are sheep, believe only what beth says? lol
nope, we all saw the joran interviews, heard the lies and watched aruba bungle it every step of the way.
Yes we heard beth and we heard anita. Joran 's interviews were very telling, bet it makes him feel real good that some have chosen to believe him even if he wouldn't believe himself.
The kid showed no campassion for natalee or her family. He was too busy meeting with deepak and dad getting his story straight. which by the way he never did do.

Heyes, Heyes.......come on!

You and I both know the truth. We know that "poll" on Greta's wire was NOT accurate. LOL

Heck, during that time (when the voting was going on), another site (and we all know who it was) was telling people how to vote MULTIPLE times in favor of Joran. So, if that ws going on there, we know it was going on elsewhere. The poll is FLAWED.

The American public is not easily deceived. I know what I saw, and what I saw was not truthful, not even close. The list of lies have been posted.

IMO

treetime

08-04-2006, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Narcissist15

But did the bank go under? The suit was dismissed in NY.

all part of the BIG PLAN :D

dinojen

08-04-2006, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by Narcissist15

The one that originally said that the guy that pushed (punched) Natalee wasn't Joran....and Joran only met Natalee that last night?

BINGO...I don't think half the MB'er's knew what transpired that night... jmho...

When you are being interviewed and you have to look at the person next to you to make sure you are saying the correct thing..or only answer ... with a ... ahhhh yeah... makes me ponder if they know what they are talking about..

The only one credible was a tall blonde that Greta interviewed.. she was frank with her answers and just flat out honest.. while the rest just stood there looking at her with the look of "I can't believe she just said that"....

There are more answers in Moutain Brook than Beth would want to believe, I have felt that from day one.. not saying they were involved..but they know more than they are saying.. but we will never know that because they were told to zip their lips and their cameras were confiscated...:shrug:

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Narcissist15

Oh but if it was a poll you agree with it is so very true. ROFLMAO

When did I ever say that?

I don't think any poll is accurate when you can vote multiple times.

IMO

dinojen

08-04-2006, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by chambord

I am confused that you feel "she is portrayed otherwise in interviews", how so?

Much could be said about Joran's pals, their dress, their appearance, their activities, etc. etc., I have yet seen any posts attacking Joran's pals, who BTW, all seemed to indulge in much the same way of party/harty, C&C's, etc. etc. You get my drift. Some things are just off limits if there is a sense of decency when your just on the outer perimeter of a situation. Sadly no holds barred has put the MB students within target range of some. And I think its pitiful to besmirch people who have nothing to do with Natalee's disappearance but only accompanied her to Aruba. Yet they are maligned, mocked, etc. How would you feel if one of these students happened to be your child?.

moo

Look at the pictures all over the internet of the MB "children" as Beth likes to call them... they are no different than the ones of the "children" on Aruba.. same hand signals.. that supposedly were so bad... the same facial expressions.. they are teens.. doing what teens do...

How do you know they don't know anything about Natalee's being missing.. I'm not saying they are involved.. but they know more what transpired that night than they have told.. because they were told to not speak... that's the point.. any little piece of information would of helped..

Don't even compare my child because I would of told my child to stay and help looking for their friend.. and I wouldn't of told her to zip her lip.. I would of told her if she knew anything.. anything at all to spill it.. if it would help finding Natalee...

But you see camera's were confiscated... the kids were told to get on the plane and not speak to anyone.. hey any little bit may have been a clue what happened to Natalee... but noooo.. the total focus was on Joran Van der Sloot and I think that's where the mistake was made.. you need to look at everything.. but they didn't.. it was Joran and only Joran..

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Narcissist15

The MB students didn't press charges....eventhough it could be proven that the property belonged to them......big difference.

Makes you wonder if it was "stolen" or traded for something else.

Where might I read that items belonging to the MB students were found in the security guards home?

IMO

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Unperson1984

Hope, I respect your opinion but wholeheartedly disagree.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that since there is no evidence to prove what you believe, there must have been a conspiracy and coverup. If Aruba wanted to protect Joran with a coverup, he never would have spent three months in jail.

This was by no means a perfect investigation, mistakes were made, among them was the tunnel vision regarding J2K, and that led to other leads going without investigation. ALE spent all their time and resources investigating J2K, only to ultimately conclude that there is no evidence they committed a crime.

:)

Then, why was Joran or the Kalpoe brothers not arrested, the car impounded and their homes searched (like the security guards) when it was first learned they lied about dropping Natalee back at the hotel?

IMO

dinojen

08-04-2006, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by Laurus
Friday, August 4:
• We'll have the latest from the Mideast
• A break in the Phoenix serial killer case!
• Plus, news on the Holloway civil suit

Anyone watching Greta?

Yep.. Dave is coming up next...

Who ever is taking Greta's place is interviewing him now..

Dave says they wanted a statement under oath..

Hmmm look a picture of Natalee and Frannie.. on the screen.. just had to add that..

Dave says all they wanted was Joran to testify under oath..and get the full story... it's still and ongoing investigation..

He says the criminal investigation will probably be closed soon.

No conversation with K. Jansen in six weeks..

Dave doesn't intend to go back to Aruba and he doesn't intend filing anything in Aruba.. if I heard it correctly.

Dave can handle if Joran and the Kalpoe's walk.. but he can't handle not knowing what happened to Natalee...

It's over...

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by dinojen

Look at the pictures all over the internet of the MB "children" as Beth likes to call them... they are no different than the ones of the "children" on Aruba.. same hand signals.. that supposedly were so bad... the same facial expressions.. they are teens.. doing what teens do...

How do you know they don't know anything about Natalee's being missing.. I'm not saying they are involved.. but they know more what transpired that night than they have told.. because they were told to not speak... that's the point.. any little piece of information would of helped..

Don't even compare my child because I would of told my child to stay and help looking for their friend.. and I wouldn't of told her to zip her lip.. I would of told her if she knew anything.. anything at all to spill it.. if it would help finding Natalee...

But you see camera's were confiscated... the kids were told to get on the plane and not speak to anyone.. hey any little bit may have been a clue what happened to Natalee... but noooo.. the total focus was on Joran Van der Sloot and I think that's where the mistake was made.. you need to look at everything.. but they didn't.. it was Joran and only Joran..

Who were the MB kids suppose to "spill it" to? they were on a class trip with a plane to catch from a foreign country, back to the U.S.

You have NO IDEA what these kids were told to do. I have heard it for months now that they were told to "zip their lips". Do you have proof of this? and, if they did say NOTHING to the public they spoke to the authorities HERE........so what? they owe YOU nothing. neither do they owe YOU their photos from their cameras. You have no idea what was shared with the authorities, you are only guessing.

The bottom line is, Natalee Holloway was escorted out of C&C's by Joran Van der Sloot, he LIED to her family and authorities about her wherabouts and she has never been seen alive again.

IMO

treetime

08-04-2006, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

Where might I read that items belonging to the MB students were found in the security guards home?

IMO

a place called FANTASY ISLAND :shrug:

:biggrin:

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by treetime

a place called FANTASY ISLAND :shrug:

:biggrin:

LOL

That place still exists?

dinojen

08-04-2006, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

Thanks Jen.

No prob.. Dave was talking so fast.. it was hard to get it all...

He seemed resigned to not ever finding out what happened..but IMO... he sounded like he only wanted the boys to be charged if there was the evidence.. hence his remark about he can handle if they walk, but just wants to know wnat happened to Natalee, I really felt sorry for him tonite..

treetime

08-04-2006, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

LOL

That place still exists?

its where LIARS go free :D

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

Some of the parents told Bachhus they didn't want their kids interviewed by ALE so being told to zip their lips is a reasonable assumption.

That's not a "reasonable assumption". If I remember correctly, the parents wanted the FBI present when the ALE was interviewing their children.......IN the United States.

IMO

dinojen

08-04-2006, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by Heyes

Interesting. I would have thought the H.I. would have pressed charges.

I just remember reading that the SG were also being held on burglary .. when the were brought in for the Holloway case,. now I don't remember ever hearing that it was property of the MB'ers...

These guys I read had already had a known record for theft..and harrassing tourists.. who knows..
:shrug:

dinojen

08-04-2006, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

That's not a "reasonable assumption". If I remember correctly, the parents wanted the FBI present when the ALE was interviewing their children.......IN the United States.

IMO

I believe it was Beth that said she wanted the FBI present if the MB'ers were to be interviewed... not the parents...

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by treetime

its where LIARS go free :D

Ahh, yes.....FANTASY island.

Well, people CAN dream ya know.

:)

IMO

treetime

08-04-2006, 11:07 PM

treetime

08-04-2006, 11:09 PM

ebnrsg1

08-04-2006, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

I really don't see that because the judge ruled back in November that Paulus was improperly detained. Thursdays ruling was just the monetary amount. He won the case last year.

my thinking was that if the news flashes were going off that Paulus had won then the judge would have sort of a second to her opinion with the American public who do not follow the case closely. There would be less of an "attack" on her for a wrong opinion if there were the judge's ruling out of Aruba sharing the limelight. Of course there was little to no news of the monetary amount so it did not work out that way. Of course it may not have been that at all as sometimes I get these convoluted notions and no one else would be able to follow what on earth I was saying so you are most likely right on target.

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by Unperson1984

According to ALE, they thought they could learn more by watching J2K and monitoring their phone calls and emails. IIRC, early in the investigation ALE said they felt pressured to arrest J2K sooner that what they would have liked.

Once arrested they were held separately, yet within 72 hours all three were telling the beach drop-off story. I’ve always found that compelling.

:)

You know, I consider you an intelligent poster......I really do.

If the ALE knew that Joran and the Kalpoe brothers had lied about dropping Natalee Holloway back at that hotel within those first few days, don't you think that by searching the home, doing forensic testing on the car that she was last KNOWN to be in, and interrogating ALL three of them with expert interrogators would have yielded MUCH more information?

Who ever heard of letting prime suspects go free while you "watch" them? I have never heard of that. Evidence is lost, and you have surely heard ALL the seasoned investigators comment about this case..........it's unheard of.

Of course they were ALL telling the beach drop-off story within 72 hours. They had 10 days to practice it.

IMO

dinojen

08-04-2006, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by chambord

Joran's three months in jail was a smokescreen to appeal to the American media. It was a cakewalk. All the books he could read, his IPOD, visits from Mom and Dad, freedom to exit his cell, lanquish on a tilted chair, feet up on a rail...Occassionaly for propriety sake, a few questions, a ride to the beach, sunglasses on, handcuffs as a prop....see America we are trying, is the message.....GMAB

I bet he even ordered "Happy Meals" from his favorite Mickey Dee's.

And now he is Aruba's newest legend, hanging out at his usual haunts, grinning at the camera, cocky as all get out. His poor parents can't even get him to lay low, he is so full of himself. Hopefully another Natalee doesn't cross his path.

moo

MOO

Hmmm wrong again... you see Paulus wasn't allowed to visit Joran while he was in jail.. because I specifically remember Anita saying that in one of her interviews...

Towards the end right before he was released Paulus was allowed in to see him and that was about the same time Paulus spoke with Dave Holloway...

Yeah I'm sure his time in jail was just a cake walk... I don't recall him having half of what you describe him as having.. but whatever floats your boat to make him seem guilty... if it makes you feel better.. cool...

What basically matters his judicial system decided there wasn't enough evidence to charge him with any crime so now he is free to attend school and eat as many happy meals, listen to his ipod and put his feet wherever he wants.. I guess...

treetime

08-04-2006, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by Unperson1984

Not according to Beth's lawsuit.

:)

wait till round 2 :D

treetime

08-04-2006, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by Narcissist15

Like you and all your "Bank On It" synopses that have yet to be correct?

ROUND 2

coming up

you BANK on that one :D

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by dinojen

I just remember reading that the SG were also being held on burglary .. when the were brought in for the Holloway case,. now I don't remember ever hearing that it was property of the MB'ers...

These guys I read had already had a known record for theft..and harrassing tourists.. who knows..
:shrug:

These security guards had no criminal history.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/08/missing.teen/index.html

Lejuez said that neither man was working the night Holloway vanished. He said the men have no previous criminal history.

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

You can't think of any recent high profile case in the US where a suspect was allowed to go free while being watched?

Not when they knowingly lied, and implicated innocent people.

treetime

08-04-2006, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

Not when they knowingly lied, and implicated innocent people.

i cant think of any either :cool:

dinojen

08-04-2006, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

These security guards had no criminal history.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/08/missing.teen/index.html

Lejuez said that neither man was working the night Holloway vanished. He said the men have no previous criminal history.

All I know is it was reported on AMERICAN MEDIA.. that they were known to the LE in Aruba as having dealing in stolen property and also harrassing tourists...

I would have to dig deep for the link.. but I remember it being discussed.. :shrug:

And they weren't working that night because they had been laid off from the hotel they were employed at because it was closed for renovations...

dinojen

08-04-2006, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

Which is the guy that reportedly approached tourist girls to see if they wanted to make his breakfast? That's a line I remember from early on. Was that one of the SG?

IMO

I don't know which said that... kind of funny though.. I just know that in the beginning of the investigation these two were known to hit on tourist and once they went to their homes to arrest them for suspicion of Natalee's disappearance they were also held for stolen property.. this was discussed not to long ago...

They were known to LE...

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

But that's not what you said:

"Who ever heard of letting prime suspects go free while you "watch" them? I have never heard of that. Evidence is lost, and you have surely heard ALL the seasoned investigators comment about this case..........it's unheard of."

That's exactly what I said. You know the case by now.

The ALE knew Joran had lied, and they still arrested two innocent men.

IMO

dinojen

08-04-2006, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Who isn't for Natalee?

I think everyone on this board is for Natalee... but it hasn't been about Natalee in months...

I'm for the right person being found that if Natalee was harmed he is found and charged and justice is found.. but the way this case was handled from day one.. I don't think it's going to happen.

I have lite candles for Natalee, I include her in my thoughts when I pray.. but that doesn't mean I agree with all that has transpired since she went missing..

I don't think one person on this board doesn't care about Natalee... MHO

treetime

08-04-2006, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Who isn't for Natalee?

there are some :flamemad:

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by dinojen

All I know is it was reported on AMERICAN MEDIA.. that they were known to the LE in Aruba as having dealing in stolen property and also harrassing tourists...

I would have to dig deep for the link.. but I remember it being discussed.. :shrug:

And they weren't working that night because they had been laid off from the hotel they were employed at because it was closed for renovations...

I know they have no criminal history.

What I would like to see is a link that these security guards had stolen property that belonged to the MB students.

IMO

dinojen

08-04-2006, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by chambord

It wasn't in the best interest of some who were enjoying the largesse of illegal activites and protecting same. Having an American tourist show up murdered would have opened a Pandoro's box. IMO, it wasn't just Joran and the Kalpoe's they were protecting, it was their very selves.

As to what Joran is now out there doing, with all that has been said about him, and the fact he is still considered a suspect, if he was my son, he would not be at C&C's being photographed, nor at the casinos indulging in his same old habits. If it were my son, until this all went away, he would be out there doing some type of missonary work, helping people, or at the least, earning a living at some type of work..Not sleeping all day, and partying all night until the wee hours of the morning. He should take a lesson from the Kalpoe brothers.

moo

Could you show us some links where he has been out partying all night and at the casino's... or his sleeping habits.. all I have seen is the recent shot of him walking on the beach with a girl...:shrug:

Do you know he isn't working.. I doubt it.. I could see what a commotion it would cause if he did try to get a job.. the media would be right there with a camera in his face..

And how do you know what the Kalpoe's are up to.. do you even know if they are still in Aruba?

Just wondering where you get your inside information from:confused:

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

It makes all the sense in the world to me to watch the suspects while listening to their communications, would these boys have been arrested in the US and put in jail on the basis of a lie, with no proof?

Why were the security guards arrested?

dinojen

08-04-2006, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Thanks. Earlier they said K. Jansen was in Holland for 6 weeks. MOO

I heard that also, supposedly she checks in with the investigation team everyday.. but for some reason I highly doubt it..

No one is saying if she is in Holland on work or vacation or both.. who knows at this point.

I think we should all live in Europe.. do you know how much vacation time the people get over there.. it's unbelieveable...they get like six weeks or something.. we could only wish...

dinojen

08-04-2006, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

He is on vacation. People generally leave work behind and have a good time while vacationing. ;)

Ohhh I get it.. it's his break before going back to school !!!

cassidy

08-04-2006, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by chambord

Right, Hope....and had the found stolen property in their possession wouldn't you think they would prosecute. Tje MB students, whose property this supposidly was, did they identify and claim it?

I hope Jones and Johns put in a claim for wrongful arrest, they deserve florians a lot more than PVDS.

moo

They can't prosecute if no one presses charges. Apparently the MB kids didn't care enough to go back and press charges?

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
If the men are innocent why are they suspects?

Perhaps they don't have the money to go to court to clear their names.

IMO

ebnrsg1

08-04-2006, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

Heli posted a transcript. He did apparently say the words "pot shot", but it's hard to interpret that, he may have meant a target for ridicule, something like that.

IMO

Said it in conjunction with going back to Aruba. Gretchen asked if they were going to file the suit in Aruba and he stated that they would probably just let the investigation go forward as he had no intention of going back to Aruba where someone might take potshots at him is what I interpreted it to mean

Hopeintown

08-04-2006, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by No Nic

I don't believe there is one, Hope. IIRC, there were items such as teens or young adults would own, such as ipods. That morphed into they had stolen from the MBs or traded them for drugs.

imo

Thanks, that's what I thought.

IMO

dinojen

08-04-2006, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

mumble grumble grumble, sounds sinister to me. Sounds like he's beginning to live just lawlessly off the land and indulge in his behaviors.

Well heck he is the Godfather of Aruba after all.. don't forget..;)

You know with all the connections and such...:eek:

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
I guess the same reason they are still suspects.

MOO

Let's face it, Luke

Those security guards were never with Natalee Holloway, it was all a great big lie.

Yet, the ALE arrested them on suspiscion of first and second degree murder, and kidnapping when they had NO evidence. The ALE arrested the security gaurds because of the information given to them by Joran and the Kalpoe brothers and they knew they had lied.

What a joke.

IMO

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159128,00.html

"It is likely it may have been a police strategy to let these three men go to gather more information," Ruben Trapenberg, spokesman for the Aruba government, told FOX News. "The three witnesses gave information about the two guys [already in custody] and that is why they were held.

"If one of those two has an alibi, then the story [given by the three witnesses] doesn't fit and therefore the two may then be released depending on the proof."

The two former hotel security guards detained Sunday in connection with Holloway's disappearance have been identified as Abraham Jones, 28, and Mickey John, 30, who has also been named as Nick John in some reports.

An Aruban judge ordered Wednesday that authorities had enough evidence to hold the two on suspicion of first- and second-degree murder and capital kidnapping, the latter of which is invoked when a kidnapping victim is killed, their lawyers said. Neither has been charged with a crime.

dinojen

08-05-2006, 12:08 AM

As for the stolen property.. I don't recall it ever being mentioned it belonged to any MB'ers... I just remember it being discussed that the SG's were involved in stolen property..and this was even before the disappearance of Natalee... I don't recall MB'er's even being mentioned in the found property...:confused:

ebnrsg1

08-05-2006, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Dave has enemies?

He must think so!!!

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by Narcissist15

Yep you are the one that was computer illiterate about IP and MAC addresses when we talked about Joran using his phone for IM and such....

sorry but that is easy to track.

Excuse me?

It might be easy to track, if someone truly wanted to track it.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Narcissist15

Well....and I apologize but.....I read where the property belonged to the MB students and they were asked to press charges even in the U.S. and they declined the request......eventhough ALE thought that charges would help in the investigation.

Link please.

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Narcissist15

And they did track it......

you were denying that it could be done...and it's fairly simple if you understand the concept....

Ask FW.....I would imagine FW would have a clue.

Don't presume to tell me what I understand, and what I don't.

And while we are on the subject, I don't even recall discussing anything with you regarding computers, and I find it highly offensive for you to be calling posters "illiterate" in anything.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
I'm no expert but I think that is the way the Aruban system works. They arrest people then gather evidence. More or less the opposite of our system where you gather evidence before the arrest. MOO

They arrested them on the basis of Joran and the Kalpoe brothers, with NO evidence. Even though the ALE knew that Natalee had not been returned to her hotel.

COVER-UP

IMO

dinojen

08-05-2006, 12:24 AM

Meooowwwwww...getting kind of kitty katty in here..

And who said the Kalpoe's have been out on the town...how come they didnt' make Inside Edition?

dinojen

08-05-2006, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

Exactly, they had NO reason to go looking and finding the SGs when the had 3 BALD FACED LIARS that were KNOWN to be with Natalee right in front of them.

Aruba = LIARS and COVER-UP

IMO

Better tell that to Aruba then... because they don't have any evidence to charge them.. meaning the 3 bald face liars you are talking about....

dinojen

08-05-2006, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

Because no one loves to hate them the way they love to hate Joran.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....now I get it :tongue:

dinojen

08-05-2006, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

Now that you mention it.....I never thought about it.....how come no one in Aruba seems to have a beard?

OMG..now that was good...sorry but it cracked me up..lol

dinojen

08-05-2006, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

I don't need to tell Aruba, Aruba knows. They choose to ignore it because having something bad happen to Natalee would be bad for tourism. Gotta protect that almighty dollar, ya' know.

imo

Don't buy that theory.. you can if you want... but I sure don't...

Don't see any cover up over a 17 year old kid... doesn't make sense... to me anyway... they aren't going to jepordize a island's welfare over a 17 yr . old kid...doesn't make sense... I would think they would rather solve the crime... but thats just my opinion

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

I don't need to tell Aruba, Aruba knows. They choose to ignore it because having something bad happen to Natalee would be bad for tourism. Gotta protect that almighty dollar, ya' know.

imo

Well, that's what keeps Aruba going ya know.

Just ask The Prime Minister who made a radio announcement the night before the "misinformation campaign"

What a coincidence.

IMO

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html

Prime Minister Nelson Oduber said on national radio Friday night that if something happened to Holloway, it would damage the reputation of this island of 97,000 people, which depends on tourism and is considered one of the safest spots in the Caribbean.

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

The cover up is not "over" a 17 year old kid. It is "over" their "happy island" "crime free" image. Better to have a missing Natalee and Bud than dead Natalee and Bud.

imo

Exactly.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

Were they arrested/detained for the stolen items? I honestly don't remember. If they were not, I would think they could clear their names of what they were arrested for, if it was related to Natalee's disappearance.

imo

No stolen items listed as the reason for their arrest. Just first and second degree murder and kidnapping.

Imagine, they never even met Natalee. They were arrested based on what Joran and the Kalpoes said, and even then they were arrested after the ALE knew the trio had lied.

Unbelievable.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Narcissist15

Yep two whole people....

no offense but considering the number of American tourist....that's a pretty low number...pretty awesome comparing that to any U.S. city.

One person seemed like one person too much for the Prime Minister.

One "whole" person........wow.

IMO

SukiJane

08-05-2006, 01:12 AM

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by Watership Down

Joe T told Rita that when ALE went to question them about Natalee they saw stolen itmes and that led to their arrests. Of course this may not be a night some choose to believe Joe so take it for what it's worth.

So, if this is true, why were they detained for first and second degree murder and kidnapping? and, why were there no stolen items charges?

Also, what led them to the security guards in the first place? it was Joran and the kalpoe brothers.

By this time, the ALE already knew that the trio had lied about dropping Natalee off at her hotel.

IMO

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/05/missing.teen/index.html

Two men charged in Aruba missing student case

The men were seen leaving their respective houses calmly and without resistance.

Holloway's uncle, Paul Reynolds, said he was told security cameras did not show his niece returning to the hotel that night, according to an Associated Press report. Police declined to comment on that report, the AP said.

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

Well it sure isn't because JK2 "named" the "minority" security guards as Mrs. Twitty said. Yep, she said "named" them. That's before she started calling them "African Americans", lol.

I'm sure that ALE had their reasons, given that JK2 never said security guards, and in fact said one man in black, not men.

And given that someone had tried to enter Natalee's room on the ground floor, and given that a guy hung out in the bushes near her room. And given that at least one of them was said to have harrassed tourists.

IMO

I'm sorry Laurus, I missed this post.

You must not have seen this article where it stated that, indeed it WAS the statements from the trio as the reason for the arrest of the security guards.

Also a few other interesting items.

IMO

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/11/missing.teen/

Two security guards were arrested last Sunday, based on police statements made by the three young men. None of the five men have been formally charged.

A senior police official told CNN there had been "a breakthrough amounting to a confession, or some sort of confession" in relation to the case, but did not say who made it.

Law enforcement sources close to the investigation said there has not been a confession, but that cracks are appearing in the three suspects' stories

Spokeswoman Vivian Van Der Biezen said only that the investigation was at a "very crucial" point.

Late Friday, a senior police official told CNN that one of the three youths police took into custody Thursday had confessed to killing Holloway.

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by Watership Down

The sg's had a reputation for harrassing female tourists. One was missing. Questioning them probably would have happened eventually. You know...like they do here with sex offenders when a child goes missing. ALE may have known the HI dropoff was a lie but sg's being mentioned may have reminded one of complaints against the two.

As for why they weren't charged with the stolen items that has been explained. Who was there to press charges? Identify the items? File a complaint if the items did belong to MB students. If it bothers you that much drop KJ a line and ask her.

LOL.....Sorry, that explanation doesn't "wash" as they say.

See my post above, where I point out that it was because of the trio that the security guards were arrested.

The ALE already knew Natalee had not been dropped back off at the hotel, they knew the trio had lied. There was no reason to arrest those security guards.

None.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by chambord

Right, Hope....and had the found stolen property in their possession wouldn't you think they would prosecute. Tje MB students, whose property this supposidly was, did they identify and claim it?

I hope Jones and Johns put in a claim for wrongful arrest, they deserve florians a lot more than PVDS.

moo

It makes me ill to think what was done to those security guards. They were being set up as fall guys.

IMO

cassidy

08-05-2006, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

"potshots" is a funny way to put it if he meant a drive by shooting. I think he meant being ridiculed, or being disrespected.

That's the way I took it too. It's used commonly in that respect.

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by AmberVonTussle

I am sure some poster will refute this link. All the links that the FBI was involved, Beth was treated well, etc. have been dismissed.

Although the 3 young men did describe the security guards in various yet different details, this published account remains:

"The security tapes of the hotel indeed show the two guards, of the Allegro Resort, walking in front of the hotels. Based on this a search was made at the Allegro Resort that is closed for renovation. The two guards were thus the last to see Natalee."

http://news.caribseek.com/set-up/exec/view.cgi?archive=69&num=15247

MOO

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. The ALE already knew that Natalee had not been dropped back off at her hotel. They knew that she was not observed on the security tapes as walking thru the lobby door, as the trio had described.

So, how could the security guards be the last to see her? Why would this article say that the trio dropped Natalee anywhere but at the lobby door? It is known that the suspects accompanied the family and authorities back to the hotel on the first night and described in detail how Natalee Holloway fell from the car, and was assisted by a security guard, where she walked thru the lobby door.......all a lie, of course.

As I have said before, I bet there are MANY people on the island of Aruba that question how this investigation was handled, and why those security guards were detained instead of the last known persons to be seen with Natalee Holloway.

It appears I was right.

IMO

From your same link.

http://news.caribseek.com/set-up/exec/view.cgi?archive=69&num=15247

In the Holloway case: The why of not detaining the three young men

ORANJESTAD - The fact that the three young men that were seen leaving the nightclub with Natalee Holloway were not detained and their photos not published is strongly questioned in the community.

They were never detained but only questioned as witnesses. The three explained that they left the nightclub with Natalee and dropped her off at the Holiday Inn, but not at the main lobby entrance.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/09/ng.01.html

LEJUEZ: Well, both the statement that I`ve read from two of this young boys state very clearly that they dropped her off at the hotel at approximately 2 o`clock in the morning. She got out of the car. She was under the influence of alcohol. And then they saw her walk through the front door of the hotel inside the lobby.

cassidy

08-05-2006, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

No stolen items listed as the reason for their arrest. Just first and second degree murder and kidnapping.

Imagine, they never even met Natalee. They were arrested based on what Joran and the Kalpoes said, and even then they were arrested after the ALE knew the trio had lied.

Unbelievable.

IMO

If they were arrested simply on what J2K said then every security guard on the island would have been hauled in too. J2K didn't "Name" the security guards and their description was very vague.
IMO

dinojen

08-05-2006, 10:09 AM

Yeah boy those VDS have some pretty heavy ties in Aruba.. so much so Joran sat in jail for three almost four months.. Paulus was arrested .. lost his job.. yeah boy those are some heavy connections... connections by the way that have never once been proven..

These security guards weren't your basic #1 citizen on the island.. granted they shouldn't of been accused of having anything to do with Natalee's disappearance.. but they were already known to ALE for other things they had done...

If Paulus had connections with the uppity ups of the island they sure didn't do him any favors....

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Hey Paula

Hi Hope!

I agree completely, and I also believe if there was any way ALE could have made the "story" the trio told stick, that the innocent security guards would have long been convicted.

In the interest of justice, thank God Beth was in Aruba from the outset. The security guards have her to thank for their freedom, since it was she who saved them from them being wrongly convicted and imprisoned.

Due to the VDS's political ties, the security guards would have made great scapegoats. ALE would have "solved" the case, and Aruba's tourism would have remained intact.

I also believe the only reasons 2K were saved are because they know so much about JVDS, and because they were not the last persons to be with Natalee. By his Joran's own admission, and 2K's account, it was Joran.

IMO

Hi Paula, (so good to see you)

You are so right. I truly believe that the security guards would have been convicted had it not been for Beth Twitty and the media, as she made it known to the world who was actually the last to be with her daughter, but the security guards were the ones sitting in jail.

Yep, 2K was saved because of what they know. They know too much about Joran and what "really" happened that night. They also know who provided their attorney for them, and I believe that's only the beginning.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by Heyes

It's how these differing opinions are expressed. Those that care about Natalee would never spout such vicious commments about the people she loved. Especially with no basis in fact.
All the speculation and horrible remarks revolving around her family and friends is what seperates those that respect and cherish Natalee and those that don't. Her loved ones aren't the suspects.

Well said Heyes.

Imo

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by fairmaiden

Good morning, T. ....

I never thought the civil suit would be heard in NY. I could have made that decision long before the Judge did .... lol.

I agree with you .... this civil suit DID seem like a "needless action" to me. Beth is saying this was their "last chance for justice"??? I happen to think Beth NEEDS to find out what happened to her daughter, but she was NOT going to get "justice" in NY, even IF the Judge hadn't dismissed the civil suit.

Apparently, Joe T. is talking about suing people .... rightfully so, I might add. I seriously hope he ALSO takes steps to place some kind of "injunction" against Beth's referring to the criminal investigation in her Safe Travel speeches, and any time she appears on TV. Hopefully she can be stopped from outright accusing Joran et al of heinous crimes, without any proof.

JMO

Isn't it going to be kind of hard for Joe T. to place an injunction against Beth Twitty referring to the criminal investigation in her Safe Travel speeches? I mean, didn't Joe T. use the words "Keystone Cops" just a few days ago when referring to the ALE? how could one feel safe when traveling to Aruba when their law enforcement is labeled in such a way?

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by redjetta

Why werent they then? I mean the security tapes were not working so how would anyone really know? If this had been pinned on the guards the media would have gone away because the story would loss intrest imo. For a missing person to stay in the media there has to be controversy, suspect(s), & a good story. Aruba could have closed this case & what could Beth or the media done to stop it? NOTHING they are their own country.
imo

What tapes were not working?

Seems the one's at the front desk were. These are only a few of the links I have.

IMO

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159006,00.html

The Kalpoe brothers told police that Van Der Sloot became intimate with Holloway at the California Lighthouse beach before they dropped her off at her hotel. They told police Holloway had been drinking heavily and was drunk, and then when she got out of their car in front of the Holiday Inn, she stumbled and fell to the ground.

When one tried to help her up, she pushed him away and said, "I can stand on my own!"

They say she then headed towards the lobby, and a black man in black pants and a black t-shirt escorted her inside.

The tape from the Holiday Inn lobby camera was reportedly checked by police but no images of Holloway were found, and the attorney says the security guard on duty from midnight on told authorities he never saw the teenager enter the hotel that night.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158666,00.html

Authorities declined to comment whether there was a relationship between the suspects and other three, earlier described as students — two Surinamese and a native of the Netherlands — who told police they dropped off Holloway at her hotel around 2 a.m. on May 30. Hotel employees, however, say that security cameras did not record her return

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/05/missing.teen/index.html

Two men charged in Aruba missing student case

Holloway's uncle, Paul Reynolds, said he was told security cameras did not show his niece returning to the hotel that night, according to an Associated Press report. Police declined to comment on that report, the AP said.

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by redjetta

They simply could have said that they had witnesses seeing her go threw her sliding glass door to her room. That door was located on the beach making it a reasonable explantion.

imo

But, they didn't.

They said they dropped her off at the front of the hotel and she went thru the lobby door.

IMO

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/09/ng.01.html

LEJUEZ: Well, both the statement that I`ve read from two of this young boys state very clearly that they dropped her off at the hotel at approximately 2 o`clock in the morning. She got out of the car. She was under the influence of alcohol. And then they saw her walk through the front door of the hotel inside the lobby.

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by redjetta

I personally don't think it matters if she accusing them in her speeches or not because she did on national tv. You have to remember that whatever you say you are held accountable. You can't simply spout off something as the truth & then say well so & so told me so I can't be held responsbile. ALE never stated that Joran had a criminal back ground or that he was/is a predator so where do you think this came from?

imo

I think Beth Twitty was provided with information. Perhaps from those in Aruba who didn't agree with the way the investigation was handled, who didn't like to see two innocent men jailed, and who might have had knowledge of prior events.

IMO

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by redjetta

If ALE went to all of this trouble to cover for these teens then they could/would have come up with an iron clad story. They could have said whatever they wanted. If ALE was so corrupt then why didnt they help the boys concoct a stroy that was iron-clad?

They tried.

After all, they gave them 10 days to get their story straight before they were arrested.

IMO

cassidy

08-05-2006, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Hey Paula

It was too late, by then, to undo the steps they had taken to protect their own, at the expense of their once thriving tourism industry, which they strove to desperately protect at the expense of Natalee and her family. However, poetic justice has dealt them a hard blow.

IMO

How do you figure that?

ebnrsg1

08-05-2006, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by redjetta

Don't you think that if they were trying to cover up this "horrible" crime to save tourism that they would have thought of all of the details before. Make sure that the focus never was on the "real" killers but on the "fall-out" guys. This could have been done easily before they even found out that Natalee was missing.

imo

If I were an Aruban investigator and trying to cover up a crime in the interest of tourism, the first thing I would have done was "found" lots of CE pointing to one of the MB males or some other tourist from another country. After all one cannot be accountable if someone from elsewhere commits a crime. I would pin it on a foreign guest so I could say it is not the people of Aruba who committed this terrible crime. One of the things I would not have done is arrest half the population of Aruba. That is the way I would handle it. Either they bothched that aspect or their minds are not as devious as mine!!!

cassidy

08-05-2006, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by fairmaiden

No Nic .... This is why we have differences of opinion.

Now .... if Beth were to travel around the country, under the guise of "Safe Travel", I would feel much better about her speeches, if she at least brought attention to the fact, her daughter was sent on a vacation, where unlimited alcohol was included in the price of that trip. I would feel much better if she acknowledged that, and perhaps advised PARENTS against trips like that. I would feel much better about them if she did not discuss the criminal investigation at all.

Any time I have seen Beth .... and I have only seen her on TV .... she has never even MENTIONED alcohol. And, on TV, I have heard her name Joran et al as responsible for her daughter's disappearance.

JMO

Good point. i don't believe I have heard that she is speaking out against sending high school seniors on unaccompanied vacations where the legal drinking is a far lower that that in the USA. None of these kids, at the age of 18, would have been experienced drinkers (to argue otherwise would be to admit that they had been breaking the law in their own country). Even IF the destination country has a legal drinking age of 18, wouldn't it then make sense for her safe travels to include a warning about buying into that type of trip?

dinojen

08-05-2006, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by ebnrsg1

NO NiC

I wonder myself why the Sheriff's Assoc backs Beth??? This is not Beth Bashing but I wonder why they would endorse one missing person over others? I have nothing against Beth but if my daughter were still missing I would definitely have a problem with my Sheriff Assoc backing a missing person from another state who disappeared in another country instead of using the funding to find my daughter who was living in their jurisdiction. Why are they not using their funding to help missing persons in general?
I for one agree that Beht is in pain but do you think she is any more pain than the parents of other missing persons ie Grinstead, Knesse, the list goes on. While I am sad for Beth , I do not think that one person is any more worthy of being represented than another. I do not fault Beth for taking any help she can get but do fault the SA for being partial to someone at the expense of others and that is my opinion. this is not meant for you personally but my feeling about the issue you were discussing

Totally understand your post and am in total agreement.. I have felt that way since day one, when we had so many horrible missing children stories at the same time as Natalee right here in our own country.. and they were given a bare minimum of attention if that.. jmho

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Hey Paula

ALE never anticipated, nor took into account, the possibility of having to deal with the perseverance and tenacity of Natalee's family, Beth most especially.

They thought Natalee would just be another missing person who disappeared from the tiny paradise island of Aruba. They never expected this case to garner worldwide media attention, and especially not the intense coverage of the American media.

It was too late, by then, to undo the steps they had taken to protect their own, at the expense of their once thriving tourism industry, which they strove to desperately protect at the expense of Natalee and her family. However, it seems poetic justice has dealt them a hard blow.

IMO

Yes, Paula.

I can only guess, but often wonder, was Joran and the Kalpoes worth it? were they worth the loss of ALL those tourist dollars that Aruba has lost and continues to lose today? who else is in on the "cover-up"?

I bet there are many Arubans who don't think they were worth it. That's why I say there was no need for a formal call to boycott Aruba. The truth had already been told through the media, it was emerging. Aruba would have lost tourists because of the fiasco anyway.

No matter how many people want to blame Beth Twitty for the suffering of the working class people of Aruba, It is Joran and the Kalpoes they should blame. It was them who led the investigation in the wrong direction, and it was THEM who tried to frame two innocent men, while the ALE knew they had lied.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by fairmaiden

Oh .... what a GREAT post this is, eb.

I wonder TOO why her Foundation is backed by the Sheriff's Assoc.?? IS it because the includes talking about this criminal investigation, and the horrible crimes she THINKS happened?? Does a "story" like this bring more sympathy from the public in general?? Her actual "safety tips" are a dime a dozen .... they can be found all over the web!! I'm CONVINCED her "story" is the drawing point.

JMO

Of course her story is the "drawing point".

After all, when was the last time you have ever heard of a student that has disappeared in a foreign country, and that student was last seen in the company of three young men (one being the son of a "judge in training"), the LE KNEW that those men had lied about that students wherabouts, and instead of detaining THOSE men, arrest two innocent men while letting the men that was last KNOWN to be with that student roam free for over 10 DAYS?

I mean, come on, that is one nightmare of a story.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
How do you know they didn't meet Natalee?

Because they said so. And, unlike Joran or the Kalpoes they have not proven themselves to be untruthful, so I have no reason to doubt them.

IMO

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/08/missing.teen/index.html

Lejuez said that neither man was working the night Holloway vanished. He said the men have no previous criminal history.

"They have both denied very categorically knowing Natalee Holloway or having any contact with her," he said. "All they know about her is what they read and saw in the paper."

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Did the security cameras show anyone returning?

I didn't view the tapes Luke, so I wouldn't know.

But, I am assuming that they were looking for Natalee Holloway, since the trio told them they dropped her off at the front entrance at around 2:00a.m and she entered thru the lobby door.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Have you decided who Natalee loved?

And, certainly nobody knows who she didn't.......right?

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Hey Paula

I've posted this before Hope, but I have a friend who has family living in Aruba. She told me the talk on the Island, and the general consensus of the inhabitants, is that Joran is responsible for Natalee's disappearance.

I don't believe the Aruban people attribute their sufferings, and financial losses to Beth, or to Nataee, but to those who are truly responsible, although they might not openly express those feelings.

IMO

I totally believe that Paula.

IMO

cassidy

08-05-2006, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Aruba was chosen because it has a low crime rate, rental cars weren't needed and the drinking age is 18. That way there would be no problem with drunk driving or drinking underage.

MOO

I understand that. My point is that in hindsight Mrs Twitty should realize that was not such a wise choice. Therefore maybe should include in her safe travel speeches a warning about the dangers of sending young inexperienced and unsupervised kids anywhere if the drinking age is far less than what it is in their home country. :shrug:

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by paralegallin

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/07/national/main700050.shtml

(link to why these 2 guards were arrested) The guards were known to police because they had a habit of going around to hotels trying to pick up women or bum cigarettes, said the officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The officer said several islanders told police that the men were seen hanging out frequently at different hotels talking to female tourists trying to pick them up in a friendly manner.

oh and one had a brush with the law previously.

Nope. Those security guards were arrested based on statements given by the trio. Oh, and they had no criminal history.

IMO

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/11/missing.teen/

Two security guards were arrested last Sunday, based on police statements made by the three young men. None of the five men have been formally charged.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/08/missing.teen/index.html

The men worked at the Hotel Allegro, in Oranjestad near the Holiday Inn where Holloway was staying.

Lejuez said that neither man was working the night Holloway vanished. He said the men have no previous criminal history.

They have both denied very categorically knowing Natalee Holloway or having any contact with her," he said. "All they know about her is what they read and saw in the paper."

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by paralegallin

I can honestly say I have never commented on Beth's hair, clothes, the way she looks at all.

I don't watch her to see her pain, I watch her to see how she reacts to certain events that transpire and to see how she will "spin" it.

The reason no other family has been treated this way (in your eyes, I can't say because I don't follow ALL the cases that are on this board) is because perhaps the majority of them don't behave in the way that Beth has.

She has brought on the reactions herself, whether they are bad or good. She put herself in the spotlight time and time again. She could have done it with class and dignity, but in my opinion and many others here, she did it without either of them.

She has said that the VDS family is not of the same calibur of people they are, she has called suspects vile names repeatedly, she has mispoke numerious times about events that there was no reason to mispeak.

I don't get my jollies off (as you put it) because the case was dismissed. I was pleased the judge ruled she did, because it has no legal standing in the US. That is why I am pleased. I don't believe that there would have been any answers given to what happened to Natalee if it had had not been dismissed.

As always, the main reason I followed this case was because I wondered what happened to Natalee, and then was sucked in through all of the twists and turns that took place on both sides.

My main desire is to see the case solved and Natalee, dead or alive, is found and returned to her mama.

MOO

I have to respond by saying there has never BEEN a case such as this. And to use the words from one of my prior posts, I can't recall where a student "disappeared" in a foreign country while she was last seen in the company of three young men and one of them was the son of a "judge in training", and they LIED about her whereabouts, the ALE knew they lied and arrested two innocent men, and allowed the ones that were KNOWN to be the last people to have been with that student to roam free for 10 days.

Natalee Holloways family had no choice but to seek help from the media, and let the world know what was taking place in Aruba. If they had not, it is my opinion the trio would never have been arrested.

Since that time, Beth Twitty has received nothing but a full force assault for taking a stand and making her thoughts known. Later, she was joined by Dave Holloway when he supported her criticism of Aruba, and their handling of the case.

I have never seen a family, or the friends of Natalee Holloway receive so much hateful posts in my life. No case can compare to this case.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by paralegallin

I can honestly say I agree with you on one bit of your post. There never has been a case like this....Where the family was allowed to go on tv show after tv show and say such vile things about mere suspects in a case.

MOO

Suspects of a missing girl that they lied about.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-05-2006, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Wouldn't it be simpler if Beth just told us what she knows truthfully? Why promise us things she can't deliver?

She doesn't owe us anything.

IMO

bchand

08-05-2006, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

Perfectly clear what she says isn't it? And who she names.

Yes it is.

"Twitty accused Joran van der Sloot, a Dutch teen suspected in Holloway's disappearance, of taking advantage of her daughter "

It continues......

"She did not comment directly on a Fox News Channel interview to air tonight in which he says he doesn't think Holloway is alive."

This should make her feel wonderful, coming from him.

ebnrsg1

08-05-2006, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

Go take a quick look at BFN. There is a huge banner ad: GET PAID TO BLOG!!!

lol

Might I ask who is paying the people to blog???? If this is being paid for by the foundation or the money for searches, I would be very angry. People donated money to find Natalee not for such a waste of resources. If it is being paid for by the funds collected in any way by the H/T camp it certainly would influence my decision as to whether they want Natalee found. Having been the mother of a missing child, I can think of nothing more reprehensible if true than to use money that could be used in searching for a child or the remains of a child and has been given for that purpose than to pay people to disrupt the internet for no useful purpose. That is my opinion. If this blog person is collecting funds for the purpose, then so be it but if it is from the foundation I think it is time the government looked into it. Sorry for the smoke coming from the ears but I cannot actually think this would happen in the world we live in. My opinion only

cassidy

08-05-2006, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by chambord

I'll mark it on my calender. Don't tell me your position yet.

Bet I'm on your side with that one.

ebnrsg1

08-05-2006, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by chambord
Did I miss Beth's appearance tonight? Never saw her.

Cham
You never saw her because she was not there. I think it was a hype thing. Dave talked on the phone but said the same thing almost to a word that he said earlier in the week on another show. I am almost certain it was a recording of the earlier phone conversation from the night the ruling came down. Did not seem to change one word. If you heard him saying that they were going to have to depend upone the people in Aruba etc etc and that he was hoping to get a statement from Joran under oath as there was no penalty for lying in Aruba then you heard it all. They are hyping about taking us right into the courtroom tomorrow evening. I suppose that will be taking us into the room where ther suit was heard. Empty but true to her word it will be the courtroom Had Micky and Lis on to be the panel.
Nothing new tonight no breaking news or anything

cassidy

08-06-2006, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Heyes

Exactly victim!

Beth is one of the stongest women I've ever seen. She is an inspiration to so many. Natalee woud be VERY proud of her mom. Dave seems kind and patient, much more patient that I could ever be. This family is special. They deserve answers about their daughter.The island of aruba and the VDS's never in their wildest dreams thought Beth could rally a country the way she has and never allow aruba to get away with this.
Those security guards would have surely gone down for this if it wasn't for Beth. She brought the three to the worlds attention. Perhaps they may never do jail time but in the worlds opinion they're murderers and rapists playing a con on a young american woman. I believe something went wrong, The other 20 times the poor girls woke up and never new what happened. Natalee did not wake up.
We had a case out here where the boys (3 of them, sound familiar?), spiked a girls drink, she passed out. She never knew what happened to her until a video was found and turned into the police. They in turn told her father and charges were filed. Three boys were convicted and are doing some serious jail time. Their daddy also was working for the government. Now if that video had never been found, these guys would have gotten away with it. Just like joran and buddies. Sad we can't nail these guys but karma will get them.

Odd isn't it, how 2 people can look at the same thing and come away with totally different opinions. I don't see it at all the way you do.

Hopeintown

08-06-2006, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by victims feel
Your post is so true Hope. With posters like you victims will be heard.

How kind of you victims. I may not post often, but what I do post I feel is the truth. The truth to let ALL know that Natalee Holloway is still MISSING after she was last seen leaving C&C's in the company of Joran Van der Sloot and Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, and then THEY lied about her whereabouts for over a week and Natalee Holloway was never seen alive again.

I read someone on here mention Chandra Levy as a comparison to this case. That is also a sad case which has never been solved. But, if my memory serves me correctly Chandra Levy was not KNOWN to be in the company of three men when she was last KNOWN to be seen alive. Also, they did not have a prime suspect who lied repeatedly about where they dropped her off until he was caught in his lies. Also, I don't believe our LE here, detained two innocent men while they let the suspects who was last KNOWN to be with Chandra Levy roam free.........did they? I think not.

Completely different cases.

That's why I say again, THIS case cannot be compared to any other case. The ALE cannot be compared to any other LE. And, Aruba cannot be compared with any other country.

After Beth Twitty brought it to the worlds attention what was really going on with her daughters "investigation", the spotlight began to shine on Aruba. More questions were asked as to why the last know persons that was with Natalee Holloway was allowed to roam free for over 10 days, and innocent people had been arrested, instead. Special committee's were formed to try and combat the bad publicity. Because, as we learned Aruba's survival DEPENDED on our tourism dollars.

Beth Twitty became the villain in Aruba to "those in authority", all because she asked for the TRUTH, and the truth was denied to her for the sake of "one happy island". But, Aruba didn't count on a mother and father with the determination and love for their daughter like Beth Twitty and Dave Holloway who seemed like they would "never go away". They still don't have their daughter back, but we sure learned much about Aruba. :)

IMO

Hopeintown

08-06-2006, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

That must have been quite a jolt to learn that Aruba depends on tourism. What a revelation.

IMO

No, the "jolt" was the extremes they would go to, to try and protect their image.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-06-2006, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom

No poll? Then what do you base your 'most of the world' statement on?

Wishful thinking?

I don't know anyone who wants to meet Beth, let alone be told by her how to 'be safe' when she obviously couldn't even get that point across to her own daughter :shrug:

No one is inviting Jug or Skeeter or Bo to their schools, so what is your point ?

Hmm, I could have swore you said Beth Twitty was "begging" for money, but you must have edited. :)

In any case, as far as "how to be safe", I have thought about Natalee's last night in C&C's with Joran in there, planning, the car out back........waiting. Who would have ever thought that evil lurks like that?

I'm so glad that Beth Twitty is getting the message out to other unsuspecting students.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-06-2006, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

That was really evil when he parked the car in the back, and then Deepak.........waiting...........and all that planning of Joran.....................wow, what a juicy fantasy, huh?

IMO

It would be different if it was "fantasy", but sadly it IS the facts.

IMO

treetime

08-06-2006, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by fairmaiden

No Nic .... I'm not sure MORE and MORE evidence WAS presented. As I understand it .... SUSPICION is the only thing required to keep them detained. I would think being the last person KNOWN to have seen Natalee, would keep that "suspicion" at a high level.

The Prosecutor has said there is no evidence.

JMO

maybe the prosector wants PEOPLE to think that and is BUILDING the CASE, bit by bit !!!

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa:D

treetime

08-06-2006, 01:12 PM

i know three families that were planning to go to ARUBA

over 20 people in total

NOT GOING ANY MORE

ARUBA TOURISM sinking faster

:cool: :patriot:

ebnrsg1

08-06-2006, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Yesterday Hopeintown posted this link, http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/08/missing.teen/index.html , to prove J2K fingered the two unemployed security guards.

I guess I'm the only person, including her, who actually read it, because what jumped out of the article at me was this: "Acting on a tip, police on Sunday arrested Jones and John in the oil-refining town of San Nicolas."

I saw that too but by putting 2 and 2 together I figured the tip was the one given by Joran and Deepak. Although they said the man in black with a walkie talkie. In my town that could be anyone, the volunteer fire dept has them the farmers have them and even some of the cell phones in these parts look like them. Now that you have mentioned it it does seem someone else might have added to the conversation to have it narrowed down to those two. IMO

Hopeintown

08-06-2006, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom

Did Joran plan on Natalee inviting him to dance and to do a jelly shot?

Now's he's psychic :eek:

Well, that depends on what interview of Jorans you hear.

In one interview he dances, in another he doesn't.

See, it's Joran's word agains Natalee's who has never been seen alive since she left C&C's escorted by HIM.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-06-2006, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom

Parking in the parking lot, what a plan!

Ahh, but it was in the BACK parking lot, and the only car there.

IMO

Hopeintown

08-06-2006, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom
Yeah, who else has spent 40% of their annual budget on ONE CASE?

Well, I wonder if they could have saved a lot of money by DETAINING the last known persons that was last KNOWN to be seen with Natalee Holloway alive? especially when they learned the trio lied?

Instead, they allowed them to roam the island free for 10 days, and drive around in the car that Natalee Holloway was last KNOWN to be seen alive in.

Besides, their 40% budget pales in comparison to what Aruba has spent in trying to counter all the bad publicity they have received.

IMO

ebnrsg1

08-06-2006, 01:40 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Laurus
[B]

I would say that she, JQK, and all of MB breathed one collective and massive sigh of relief when the suit was dismissed. Dave apparently thinks they are in prison and "might walk".

Laurus,
You say that JQK and the MB people breathed a sigh of relief. I am wondering if there were not more than that. For one, Greta. It seems to me that one of the links posted here yesterday could have caused some major discomfort to Greta if it had been brought up in court. She is a good friend of Beth. If the two versions of how the gained entrance into the VDS home were brought up and she had to testify as to which one was correct that would likely have caused some strain in the relationship. Even if Beth said to Greta let's go see if they will talk to us, and later thought that they were just in the neighborhood passing out prayer cards ( I imagine some things were fuzzy and it could have been that she was mixing up times and places or had not remembered the circumstances).
At any rate a jury could look at it in two ways 1. Beth was distraught and did not know the circumstances so therefore not reliable or 2 the refrain of old Beth lied and therefore cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Either way Greta probably knows from spending time so closely assoc with Beth on Aruba that called to testify would have had to point out all the discrepancies in the case to which she had knowledge. maybe even discrepancies that were brought to light by other news teams. Surely not a comfortable situation. I think she might have sighed long and loud also but that is just my opinion

cassidy

08-06-2006, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Heyes

open mind = it ain't joran lol lol lol

No, open mind = MAYBE it's Joran and MAYBE it isn't. With no evidence of a crime of any sort, the possibility exsists that Joran had nothing what-so-ever to do with whatever happened to Natalee.

cassidy

08-06-2006, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

Well, I wonder if they could have saved a lot of money by DETAINING the last known persons that was last KNOWN to be seen with Natalee Holloway alive? especially when they learned the trio lied?

Instead, they allowed them to roam the island free for 10 days, and drive around in the car that Natalee Holloway was last KNOWN to be seen alive in.

Besides, their 40% budget pales in comparison to what Aruba has spent in trying to counter all the bad publicity they have received.

IMO

I haven't seen that, is there a figure printed as to how much was spent to conteract the negative publicity?

cassidy

08-06-2006, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by Hopeintown

Ahh, but it was in the BACK parking lot, and the only car there.

IMO

No other cars were parked in this parking lot that nite? How do you know that?

treetime

08-06-2006, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by No Nic

LOL, nice try. The quote is A judge ruled Monday there was sufficient evidence against 17-year-old Joran van der Sloot , does NOT say suspicion.

eta: this is why no one wants to provide links anymore. If the link does not say what you want it to say, you twist and spin it to suit your needs.

This link says what it says and trying to "change" it only "changes' your credibility.

you = general you

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/05/world/main706310.shtml

imo

way to FIRE!! Nic !!!

send em another HIGH HEATER right down the MIDDLE

then follow it up with a SLOW BREAKING CURVE BALL

WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:D

treetime

08-06-2006, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by No Nic

oooooooohh, yeeeaaahhhhhhh, Tree

And then they are ooouuuuuttttttt !!!!!

imo

i think you just threw a SHUT OUT

NO HITTER

NO WALKS

PERFECT GAME !!!!!:patriot:

ebnrsg1

08-06-2006, 02:08 PM

Can someone give me the link to the Heli person who does transcripts of shows? I keep meaning to save it but at my age forgetfulness is key!! I would especially like to see the full transcript of Joe T. talking to Greta the night of the dismissal. I am thinking he said something and want to make sure I heard it right?

Also one more question? It has been referenced here a number of times that in 2007 when all the suspects that are still suspects are released as suspects, the case files will be opened to the public. Is that correct or wishful thinking? If they released all the aspects of the investigation wouldn't that make it much more difficult to prosecute if there ever was a point where they could take anyone to trial.

Thanks to anyone responding

treetime

08-06-2006, 03:53 PM

i have figured out the MISSING SNEAKERS

it was a MYSTERY and it is NO LONGER

<<<<<<======================GENUIS

i will forward the INFO to TIM M. :patriot:

treetime

08-06-2006, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by chambord

You might want to ask Anita, she was the one who provided the details to Greta and Beth.

moo

ANITA knows the TRUTH :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom
You better send him some money too since he said he doesn't have any.
i did, last week

:D

treetime

08-06-2006, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom
Evidently not enough because he's still on in Aruba.

every little bit helps :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom

LMAO Laurus,my post was about Tim Miller not having money to go to Aruba. LOL

Are those the shoes Tree just advised Tim Miller about?

LAUGH now,

i BAGGED the WHOLE SNEAKER FIASCO

NAILED IT

WATCH OUT. the train is COMING :D

cassidy

08-06-2006, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by fairmaiden

cassidy .... I do believe you just defined "open mind".

JMO

:) I knew that.

treetime

08-06-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom

Is this another rumor? What's this about Tim Miller losing his or TES money at the casino or gambling with her daddy's money????

:shrug:

sounds like a STUPID RUMOR from RUMOR CENTRAL

back to my issue, all i was saying is i have figured out the MISSING SNEAKERS
and what they were used for :D

ebnrsg1

08-06-2006, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

Check out the accuracy of the translation:

"To your question as to what clothes I was wearing when I was picked up by Deepak and Satish, I can answer the following. I wore a white/blue shirt, a blue/white jeans trouser or a three-quart black trouser and a couple of white shoes or crème coloured boots."

LOL sounds like Debbie and/or BHT got themselves a real pro translator.

http://blogsfornatalee.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=ebc49d1bde9ccd026191ef803aa709 fb&topic=4487.0

IMO

Two questions I would have asked is which is it blue/white or black white shoes or creme colored boots???

I would also be checking out this girl that he asked to accompany him to the casino to see if he actually did so. Now maybe the investigators have done so.
Maybe the many questions that could have been asked for clarification during that interview are some of the leads that were not followed up on according to Joe T. I can think of several questions I would have asked during that interveiw but they just let Joran go on and on and did not question one word he said etc etc in my opinion

Xainia

08-06-2006, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by fairmaiden

oh, sorry Heyes .... I think THAT'S an overstatement also ....

JMO

Yep sure is and overstatment.

The Holloway case is not well known in Australia. No more then a ticker tape blip on the screen ages ago.

I know of it because I come here.

The Holloway case is not well known in parts of England according to my relatives there. Some had not heard of it at all.

The Holloway case in not known at all in Poland according to my relatives there.

Last I heard these three countries are part of the world.

Xainia

treetime

08-06-2006, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by victims feel
Tree she certainly does..aint no fooling mama.She can pretend for the public all she wants about her son and who he really it but he was not in anger management for nothing.

ROCK ON :patriot:

treetime

08-06-2006, 08:56 PM

wanna hear my SNEAKER THEORY ??

:D

treetime

08-06-2006, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by chambord

Why did it have to be him? Remember, he was too busy, bragging at school about his conquest, sleeping on the floor at school, playing tennis, so he claims later that day, cooking up a story with Guido. Nah, he didn't dispose of the body..someone else took care of that. Joran was booked, had a full day...yet had the energy and stamina to go back out to the Wyndom till 2 or 3 am. Ahh youth, isn't it grand.

moo

JACKPOT

treetime

08-06-2006, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by fairmaiden

OMG nm .... me too .... Can we DRIVE there?? ;)

if you have a license, i think you can drive there

:tongue:

peg54

08-06-2006, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by treetime
wanna hear my SNEAKER THEORY ??

:D

Yes Tree, I want to hear your sneaker theory.

peg

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by chambord

Only with a boat, tree, its an island. Course you can do anything.

someone asked if they COULD drive there..

and i answered YES, if you have a license

just like you can drive in HAWAII...as long as you have a license :biggrin:

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by peg54

Yes Tree, I want to hear your sneaker theory.

peg

ok, Peg

the sneakers were used as a Bouy or a Marker after Natalee
was put in the water, that NIGHT

the sneakers were floating and attached to the cage or the body
that was weighted down

this way, the HELPERS could come at night or the next NIGHT
and be able to know exactly where the BODY was so that the body could be MOVED to more permanent location.

the sneaker were so that PEOPLE woudl know where to fiund the body otherwise it would be difficult to spot the body unless
JORAN was there to show them exactly where the body was

after the HELPERS took care of business the sneakers were
destroyed :flamemad:

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by chambord

I was going to say you could easily get there without driving, as I think you can walk on water. No?

imo

i can at times :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by Unperson1984

He didn't know she was missing when he went out the next night.

:)

he knew she wasnt DROPPED off at the HOTEL

:D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

And not one person in that 24 hour period noticed a floating sneaker attached to a rope? :shrug:

floating sneaker could have been there for ONLY 2 hours until the HELPERS came

it was at NIGHT

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

And not one person in that 24 hour period noticed a floating sneaker attached to a rope? :shrug:

my theory is that the BODY was not at the BEACH JORAN claims he was on....

another beach area that was ISOLATED far away

but still a MARKER was needed

IT FITS

IT WORKS

BANK IT
:D

peg54

08-06-2006, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by treetime

ok, Peg

the sneakers were used as a Bouy or a Marker after Natalee
was put in the water, that NIGHT

the sneakers were floating and attached to the cage or the body
that was weighted down

this way, the HELPERS could come at night or the next NIGHT
and be able to know exactly where the BODY was so that the body could be MOVED to more permanent location.

the sneaker were so that PEOPLE woudl know where to fiund the body otherwise it would be difficult to spot the body unless
JORAN was there to show them exactly where the body was

after the HELPERS took care of business the sneakers were
destroyed :flamemad:

I suppose that could be possible, a better theory than the septic tank.

peg

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

And that proves he knew she was missing when he went out the next night? How?

2+2

:cool:

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by peg54

I suppose that could be possible, a better theory than the septic tank.

peg

no, no , no
the septic tank theory is where she was put as the permanent
location :patriot:

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

That is even worse. That puts it near 5am. Fishermen go out before dawn so the chances of being seen were greater. Nope, that doesn't work.

IT WAS ANOTHER BEACH AREA :cuss:

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by Unperson1984

How did he call for help?

;)

how ???

what you mean ?

he went home and told DADDY :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

You seem to have forgotten, he had no way of knowing Natalee was missing when he went out Monday evening.

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

he knew

thats what all the LIES were about :o

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

Fishermen don't fish in one area close to shore. They go out and move around looking for the fish.

she was not out far in the water for goodness sakes

maybe 10 feet, maybe 15 feet

with the sneaker as the BUOY

there are places on the island that fisherman dont fish :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

Still doesn't prove he knew she was missing when he went out the next night. Nice try though.

i cant prove that farms in IDAHO stink

but they do :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

Sorry Tree but that theory just doesn't hold water.

its so close to the TRUTH its SKERRRRRRRRRRY

thats why the sneakers are gone

thats why JORAN went home and had HELP

thats why she was put in a more permanent location - SEPTIC

thats why he lies

its GOOD

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Do size 14 sneakers come with 15 foot long laces?

NO BUT JUMPER CABLES are about 15 feet long

:D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

Tree once described those shoes as boats. Now he wants us to think those boats were used to mark the spot where Natalee was in the water and they weren't seen by anyone??

LOL LOL LOL

they could have been used as a BUOY for 2 hours or 30 minutes
UNTIL help arrived to move the body

:flamemad:

they were just a LOCATION MARKER
like when golfers put a marker down on the GREEN

:D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

You ain't doing so hot proving the shoe was a buoy either. :biggrin:

the shoes were WET, they were markers in the water

they HELPERS destroyed them because they had touched them also and left DNA on them

got to get rid of the SHOES at all costs :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by FitnessMom

Is it possible to jump start a car with sneakers? Ya lost me.

needed something , rope, chain, jumper cables to tie the sneakers to the weights to the body

AUTOMOTIVE ENTERPRISES :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Here's an experiment for you.

Attach a 15 foot jumper cable to a sneaker and put them in 15 feet of water. Then see where the sneaker winds up.

What would Joran be doing carrying around a jumper cable anyawy? He didn't have a car. Do you think he carried a gas can around too?

do your own experiments

i do mine :D

he got them from K2 car :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

You apparently didn't do one with jumper cables and a sneaker.

i have done many

ask anyone here :cool:

ebnrsg1

08-06-2006, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by treetime
wanna hear my SNEAKER THEORY ??

:D

Yeah you can tell us about the sneaker theory and Luke can tell us how the septic tank that is missing got off the island. It might make for a good calm discussion LOL

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by ebnrsg1

Yeah you can tell us about the sneaker theory and Luke can tell us how the septic tank that is missing got off the island. It might make for a good calm discussion LOL

nobody moves a SEPTIC TANK

they are in the GROUND :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom
LMAO

:cuss: :flamemad:

ebnrsg1

08-06-2006, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

I didn't want to burt Tree's bubble all at once. I was saving that one for last. :biggrin:

Oops sorry I spoiled it for you !!!!

ebnrsg1

08-06-2006, 11:12 PM

Cham et al
Did anyone notice that we were foiled again this evening by KG. She did not even show us the empty courtroom Stated that she was going to go straight into the courtroom and then there was not one word mentioned about the case.

I usually don't watch her and now that she has cried wolf twice in two nights I think she is a permanent write-off !!

treetime

08-06-2006, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by ebnrsg1
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Watership Down

And not one person in that 24 hour period noticed a floating sneaker attached to a rope? :shrug: [/QUOTE

Might I ask a dumb question? Would not the sneakers fill with water and sink in a relatively short time?? Just asking

sneakers float :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by GrrlPwer
Well thats far from the truth. We bought 20 acres about 5 years ago and we had the septic tank dug up and had a new one put in. and we also had one dug up and moved it. qre you sure you have your facts straight lmao

well, yea i guess they can be moved as i have seen them moved also.

trust me i know more about septic tanks that you and 20 others on this board

ok, sure,,
you know what i mean
but no one has moved a SEPTIC tank recently in ARUBA

:D

treetime

08-06-2006, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

It's ok. It's pretty obvious that a shoe isn't going to float for long when it's being tugged on by waves by a rope or anything else used to tie it to a heavy object underwater. :)

they were not used as MINI BOATS for GOODNESS SAKES :flamemad:

treetime

08-06-2006, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by Unperson1984

You mean after he stopped laughing?

;)

JOE T must have nightmares at NIGHT :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

Not when they are attached to a rope in an ocean with waves. :tongue:
yes, they do :D

treetime

08-06-2006, 11:42 PM

It contains an interesting story about a cargo ship that lost a container full of 80,000 sneakers over the side in the northern Pacific. Since sneakers float, researchers took note of where the sneakers washed ashore in Alaska:patriot:

treetime

08-06-2006, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

How many of those sneakers were attached to a rope or cable of some type that was attached to something big enough to hold a body in???

they were just used as a Buoy

all you have to imagine is 8 feet of water and tthe rope is 20 feet long,, they were used as MARKERS only

:D

bchand

08-07-2006, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back
I wonder how Harry Tho's search for Natalee in Canada is going.

I've always thought that's the most likely place Natalee would be. It wouldn't be the least bit difficult for her to get into Canada, and an American can blend in very easiy, even in those areas of Quebec province where French is the primary language.

But, if you were hiding out, would you "list" your real name in the phone book? That's what Harry claimed she did.

bchand

08-07-2006, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by bchand

But, if you were hiding out, would you "list" your real name in the phone book? That's what Harry claimed she did.

ETA: Good Morning Gregor. (I believe I recall you are also from PA - nice weather finally isn't it?)

bchand

08-07-2006, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

ETA: Good morning to you also.

Is there a Mechanicsburg exit on the turnpike?

Our weather is so nice I'm going to have to cut the grass today.

I think it's called "Harrisburg West". Exits right at Rt 83. (I got my new doggie in Paradise, PA - is that near you?)

bchand

08-07-2006, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Paradise isn't too far away. I live in Berks county, I believe Paradise is in Lancaster county.

The Pennsylvania Dutch originally settled in Berks, most of the Amish moved to Lancaster, so we have several sects of Mennonites and just a few Amish.

What kind of dog do you have? We have two Cairns, one and a half and two years old.

Since there aren't too many on the board, I hope the few don't mind the OT posts.

Just what I was thinking but it'll get back OT as soon as someone shows up.

We had a pomeranian, but we had to have her put to sleep. We lasted 4 days before we decided we needed to get another dog. I found that kennel in Paradise and saw a beautiful chocolate colored pom. Of course, she's turned into another redhead, which is fine with us. She was much more feisty than our other one, so I recently got a kitten from a shelter and that's changed her personality immensely. (I swear an "only pet" is as bad as an only child.)

(Off to the gym - and sorry everyone for getting OT) Have a good day Gregor.

julianella

08-07-2006, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

He also says that fact could be used to show she wasn't acting in an illegal manner, which I guess is true.

If she did leave her passport in Aruba she could have entered Canada with just her driver's license, which Beth admits Natalee had with her.

Using that driver's license as legitimate ID could be a reason she would have a phone in her name.

Wouldn't you think that after all the searching, and publicity that someone would have noticed Natalee right in Canada with a phone in her name? Someone who ran away surly would not be that stupid with all the publicity this case got! IMO

And if she was a runaway why would she use her own ID wouldn't you think she'd get another one?

imo

cassidy

08-07-2006, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by julianella

Wouldn't you think that after all the searching, and publicity that someone would have noticed Natalee right in Canada with a phone in her name? Someone who ran away surly would not be that stupid with all the publicity this case got! IMO

And if she was a runaway why would she use her own ID wouldn't you think she'd get another one?

imo

Hide in plain sight? :shrug: I don't know, sounds a little off to me too. Although, technically, at her age she is free to go wherever she wants to go and do whatever she wants to do. If she is in Canada (and I'm not saying she is that's quite a stretch) and she indicated that is where she wants to be, I don't believe there is anything anyone can do about it.
I'm not buying into that one, but on the other hand, truth is often stranger than fiction. :shrug:

cassidy

08-07-2006, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by victims feel
That would be your opinion. There is plenty of CE in this case.

Would you mind citing it please?

cassidy

08-07-2006, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by victims feel
Are you serious? It has been done verbatim and adnausem : do you own work.

OK

cassidy

08-07-2006, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by victims feel
Are you serious? It has been done verbatim and adnausem : do you own work.

Looked around a bit and saw some "reason for suspicion" but nothing that constitutes circumstantial evidence.
There is no evidence that a crime has been committed, therefore circumstantial evidence does not apply.
IMO

dinojen

08-07-2006, 10:51 AM

Sociopath...lmbo...that word sure gets tossed around alot...

Just armchair psychological diagnosis... remarkable what can be done from a message board...

cassidy

08-07-2006, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Laurus
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/05/national/main1868091.shtml

BHT: "You know it's just hard to know what to do when you have a victim of a crime in a froeign country, I mean it's just ground breaking territory for everyone"
------------------------------------

***SNIPPED****

Can she honestly think that this is a 1st and that there are no safe travel tips out there? Groundbreaking territory?

julianella

08-07-2006, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

This case was never big news in Canada, and there are areas of Canada where it was no news at all.

I live in east central Pennsylvania. In a 20 mile radius I know of only one person who even knows who Natalee Holloway is.

Not everybody watches the TH shows, and fewer people belong to message boards dedicated to the case.

Having a phone in her name could be a necessity. She could be living in a community using anoher name however.

I actually know a lot of people who "know" about the case, but that aren't "followers" of the case.

Well lets ask this, how did the internet detective just come about finding this phone number?

Also aren't there some Canadians here in this board I'd ask them do you ever hear about the case there?

imo

julianella

08-07-2006, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

How many of us had even heard of Brandi Stahr BEFORE she was found hiding in plain site? I had never heard of her. I don't think Natalee could hide in plain site in the US or Canada, too much exposure and too close for comfort. IMO

I still am not sure who Brandi Stahr is? Although I have not researched to many cases listed on this site.

imo

ebnrsg1

08-07-2006, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

So you would let Joran continue to live under a cloud of suspicion? I would think the moral reaction would be to stop this madness, not let it continue.

Natalee could not be forced to return to her mother. If her mother refused to leave her alone, there are legal ways for Natalee to prevent that from happening. There would be absolutely no reason not to put a stop to all of this.

(conversational only, I do not believe Natalee is alive and well in Canada)

imo

I am not this poster but the way I got his message was that if he saw Natalee he would talk to her. I envisioned that part of the discussion would be to explain to her what the ramifications of her actions had been and that she should come forward on her own and bring the situation to a conclusion. To say that he would not turn her in is in my thinking an act of compassion as I would imagine that as a young runaway you would not have many friends that you could trust and lean on. To have someone that you could trust would maybe lead into being convinced to make the right decision. As you said this is postulation on a theory as no one is 100% sure of anything in this case as far as I can discern

Mandymax

08-07-2006, 12:32 PM

I truly feel sorry for Ms. Twitty. I don't believe Joran was responsible, at least not directly, for Natalee's disappearance, but for whatever reason, Ms. Twitty latched on and refused to let go. I think after awhile, holding Joran accountable became the only way she could cope - as long as she had Joran to focus on, she didn't have to accept that there are no answers to what happened to her daughter.

Now it's all over - the case has been thrown out, and I tend to believe reality is fully sinking in for her. The problem is that there are no clear guidelines as to what that reality is. That has to be tremendously difficult to live with. I hope she's someday able to find peace.

court~critic1®

08-07-2006, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Cassiopeia

Spanish.

Interesting..... could that be one of the reasons the Med-jet changed flight plans after take off, to divert to Mexico????? moo

bchand

08-07-2006, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Which authorities would you alert?

If Natalee ran off, is that a crime?

I do not like JVS, point one. I have no sympathy for the position he put himself in.

If I knew Natalee was alive and well, and had the opportunity to talk to her, I'd try and convince her to come forward in order to clear "everyone". If she didn't, I'd notify the Aruban authorities.

cassidy

08-07-2006, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by candykisses
I am totally amazed at all of the back door innuendo and baiting based on conjecture that continues to envelop some of the sad posters here.

May you all find peace in your own life some day.:rose:

Isn't that what this case is all about really? Conjecture?

julianella

08-07-2006, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Hey Paula
I think it's very sad to suggest that Natalee was trying to escape a family, who obviously loves her very deeply, which is clearly demonstrated by their will to learn her fate.

There is nothing to suggest Natalee would do this. How hurtful it must be for the family to read such suggestions.

IMO

I agree with this Paula. So many times I have heard there's no evidence, there's no evidence, and then without evidence of a runaway the specualtions run wild.

THere is nothing at all to support that. IMO

julianella

08-07-2006, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

But that's just it. There doesn't have to be evidence of a run away because there's no evidence of anything else.

If there is no evidence of a crime then why are spokesman and investigators mention this as foul play? Not runaway....

imo

cassidy

08-07-2006, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by candykisses

IF YOU ARE NOT IN ALABAMA, why would you see JUG?:confused:

Has he been confined to the state of Alabama?

cassidy

08-07-2006, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by candykisses

Just what are you trying to insinuate about Jug?

Cut to the chase.

I'm not trying to insinuate anythng. I was responding to your post "Originally posted by candykisses

IF YOU ARE NOT IN ALABAMA, why would you see JUG? "

You seem to think he is only in Alabama and I wondered why you thought that.

forensicpsy

08-07-2006, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

4 October 2005. Nancy Grace show, among others. I don't have cable, so I watch all of BHT's and previously Jug's appearances on the internet.

Nancy's HLN/CNN show is on the internet?

forensicpsy

08-07-2006, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

It is?

Is it?

forensicpsy

08-07-2006, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Laurus

4 October 2005. Nancy Grace show, among others. I don't have cable, so I watch all of BHT's and previously Jug's appearances on the internet.

NG's show is on the internet?

OOps. I just saw your reply above. Not to a game - to a perfectly logical question.

moo

forensicpsy

08-07-2006, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom
Exactly, Beth can accuse all she wants, it doesn't make her material to the investigation or any prosecution.

Exactly right.

So why do you care if she lies, or doesn't lie, or exaggerates, etc?
It's immaterial.

i8mo

forensicpsy

08-07-2006, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom
It's immaterial to the prosecution and investigation, it's not immaterial to her continued slander

Apples and oranges.

moo

forensicpsy

08-07-2006, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom
:confused:

It appears that Natalee disappeared in Aruba while her mother was in the states.

Beth's personality or odd characteristics have nothing to do with the investigation at hand - that is the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

And that's the apples and oranges. There's the real investigation - and then there's the eccentric Beth who has taken on a life of her own - thanks to posters like you. But she is really immaterial to what happened that night.

I don't know what your continuous ridiculing of her has to do with Natalee's disappearance.

imo

forensicpsy

08-07-2006, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Was getting Dompig removed from the case immaterial?

I said immaterial to Natalee's disappearance.

moo

forensicpsy

08-07-2006, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by nascarmom
Sorry you see the truth as ridiculing, if Beth hadn't put herself out there, she wouldn't be 'ridiculed' by having her lies exposed. If it is such a concern for you, you should tell her to stop lying so that you won't get so upset when she is 'ridiculed' for it.

Huh? Why would I want to contact Beth? I'm a poster....not her friend. :rolleyes:

moo

forensicpsy

08-07-2006, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by Watership Down

Beth opened herself up for discussion by 1) lying 2) giving public speeches.

Maybe but she's not what the case is about. It's about Natalee's disappearance in Aruba.

Just because you find Beth entertaining doesn't mean she impacts the case.

imo

ebnrsg1

08-08-2006, 12:25 AM

here is a question I have pondered for some weeks now. As was pointed out this evening Beth was not in Aruba at the time Natalee disappeared. it is clear that no one knows what happened that evening or if they do they are not saying. Joran and the Kalpoes have denied sex with Natalee. Noone was there to refute their statements and say that she was raped. We are sure that she left in the car and Deepak says that he drove around the block several times so that she could get out and rejoin her friends. Her refusal to get out of the car is confirmed by her friends. There is no body. The only one it seems to me that could refute anything in the statements would be Natalee herself either by speaking up as the complaintent in the Duke case did or by forensic evidence upon her body.
With all that said, I do not know how it is possible that the charges of rape kidnap and murder were ever brought in the first place. It would seem that they could go forward with the murder charges even in the absence of a body if they found enough CE but given that everyone concurs that she left willingly I do not understand the kidnap and certainly since there is no complaintent and no evidence I cannot understand the rape. I hope someone can explain this that is familiar with the laws
thanks

forensicpsy

08-08-2006, 12:26 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Laurus

Beth doesn't impact the case? Of course she does. She's the main reason for the myopic tunnel vision, focusing on Joran, K2, now apparently just Joran, because he was chosen by Natalee.

No one says she was there the night that her daughter disappeared, but impact the case? Of course.

Her slander has impacted suspects that may be innocent. Her boycott may affect children and their health education and welfare.

I wonder if Arubans are as willing to come forward with tips now that they have seen her goal, which is to take the food out of their children's mouths.

Impact the case, in a negative manner, of course.

IMO [/QU

Because he was chosen by Natalee? LMAO. That's not why she focuses on him. Is this blame the victim in some convoluted way?

moo

forensicpsy

08-08-2006, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by Watership Down

That is your opinion, not mine. She has impacted this case from day one when she chose to confront Joran at his home in the middle of the night and whn she chose to bypass LE and do her own investigation then go on tv and berate ALE for not solving this case. Then on top of that she turns around and lies more than Joran ever has.

1 - She's not a suspect.

2- The suspects have all been released.

forensicpsy

08-08-2006, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

And to keep the record straight.........I won't be bullied either.

eta: Or ganged up on.

You go girl!

forensicpsy

08-08-2006, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by nascarmom

Didn't she even say she wouldn't consider any other possibility, or something to that effect?

That's a very important comment.

Could you be more specific as to what she exactly said?

forensicpsy

08-08-2006, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

Even some of the TH have asked her, diplomatically, why she concentrates on Joran. Even GRETA asked her if she didn't have her Dutch boys all mixed up. IIRC so did Dan ask some version of that question.

So, like I say, why DOES she focus so much on Joran, if she doesn't have a personal grudge against him for being Natalee's choice.

IMO

Because she believes that he knows what happened to her daughter.

She also knows that he's a spoiled. arrogant creep who, among other things, appears to enjoy tormenting her in her grief.

MOO

forensicpsy

08-08-2006, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

Then you understand why she is the focus of so much criticism. Because her personal feelings towards him should not justify the slander and accusations that she can't prove.

I don't care if she hates him, and I don't care about the rest of your characterization of him. He's a kid.

SNIP

IMO

Do you care where Jug is?

forensicpsy

08-08-2006, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

:confused: What does my post have to do with Jug??

Do you care that he's been in absentia?

Just curious cuz it has no importance to Natalee's disappearance last year.

moo

julianella

08-08-2006, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

So, why DOES she focus on Joran to the exclusion of all other. She doesn't believe a word he says, so why does she believe he was the last seen with NH?

I believe she has a terrible terrible anger against him because he was chosen by Natalee. Until the ACA interview she had managed to keep the behavior of Natalee pretty much whitewashed, and Joran told of the jello shot, trying to get him to dance, asking him to take her somewhere when the bar closed.

Joran is the one who opened the world's eyes as to what was going on in C&C that night with the MB students. Beth will never forgive him for it.

And, I believe she literally hates him because he treated her daughter like just a one night stand, leaving her on the beach when she wanted him to stay.

IMO

I wanted to chime in on this post. I think her anger towards Joran stems from the lies. I don't think it was because Natalee "chose" Joran, I think it is because he lied when she got there, he lied in jail and has shown absolutely no remorse in that fact!

The reason I feel she believe he was the last to see Natalee is actually quite simple. She left C&C's with Joran, was seen in the car with him, and has never been seen again!

Joran opened the eyes to what happened at C&C's? What a jelly shot? You think that was the first time it ever happened? LOL YOu think the MB kids are the ONLY ones to ever act that way at C&C's? Come on! And What was Joran doing there again? Ahh yes he too was underage drinking and willingly sipping a shot of a girl tummy!

Also for a one night stand don't you actually have to have sex? Well they didn't have sex according to Joran, so how could he have treated her like one? I think what disgusted Beth is that According to Beth AND the other MB girls Natalee is not some easy piece of meat (my words) but pretty much sums it up! And Joran made her out to be one! Funny how we have her friends and family saying she was not a experienced girl, yet Joran makes it out to be easy...... Someone who didn't even "know" her! And we are supposed to believe it... right!

imo

julianella

08-08-2006, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

According to her first few interviews Beth claimed that all Joran said was "What do you want me to do?"

She didn't accuse him of lying, only of hiding Natalee.

Months later on Nancy Grace Jug was still saying the HI lie wasn't told until a few days after the raid on the van der Sloots.

Yes but the main reason I feel she has so much anger towards him are the lies. His arrogance in the beginning fueled the fire but at this point I think its the lies.

imo

julianella

08-08-2006, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

According to Charles Croes he wasn't arrogant.

According to Beth he was!

ETA: Are we believeing Charles Croes now?

julianella

08-08-2006, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by Gregor's Back

Why would we believe Beth? She has an agenda.

Why would Croes lie?

Right Beth's agenda is Natalee. I believe the mother of a missing person over people that do not know her.

And why would Croes lie? Good question....

I wonder how he really obtained Jorans address.. he claims from some kids who seen Joran driving Deepaks car, but Joran claims he never drove the car.. is it a lie or the truth?

cassidy

08-08-2006, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Hey Paula

Didn't they do that? Didn't LE accpompany Beth to the VDS's house when she arrived in Aruba?

Didn't LE tell her that Natalee would show up and that this happens after a night at CnC? It doesn't sound as though ALE took Natalee's disappearance very seriously, so can you blame Beth for taking the iniative to retrace her daughter's steps that evening?

It was Beth, who asked to see the surveillance tape. It was Beth who asked the HI to check the usage of the room key. It was Beth who saved the security guards from remaining in jail. IMO, she was more resourceful than ALE.

Didn't LE tell her to come back after 36 hours?

Quite honestly, I believe the family handled themselves much better than my husband and I would have.

IMO

Perhaps you are forgetting the part about the Twitty's conducting their own private investigation BEFORE contacting the ALE?

She retraced her daughter's steps BEFORE contacting the ALE that nite. Maybe they figured if she didn't feel it worthy of reporting immediately it wan't that serious.

Again, viewing the surveillance tapes and key usage were done BEFORE contacting the ALE. And she didn't "save" the security guards. They remain suspects.

Any police in the USA would have told her the same thing unless there was obvious evidence of a crime.

IMO

ebnrsg1

08-08-2006, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Unperson1984

Judging by the civil case, they hoped to prove rape by using pattern of conduct evidence. Then Jane Doe denied Joran comitted any crime against her.

Kidnapping doesn't just mean taking someone against their will, it can also include keeping someone against their will, even if the person initially went willingly.

:)
That makes sense. I had just not recalled a case where rape and murder was included where there was not a complaint of rape or some forensic evidence that it ocurred nor a murder charge being brought before there was some evidence of a murder.

cassidy

08-08-2006, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by nascarmom
:no: only Joran took the jelly shot

Which by all logic would make him guilty. :shrug:

cassidy

08-08-2006, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

Joran Joran Joran.............Lied Lied Lied and then Lied again and again and again.

I don't see ANYBODY defending ANY other "suspects". Why is that??

Because no one is verbally attacking them?

ebnrsg1

08-08-2006, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by julianella

Also for a one night stand don't you actually have to have sex? Well they didn't have sex according to Joran, so how could he have treated her like one? I think what disgusted Beth is that According to Beth AND the other MB girls Natalee is not some easy piece of meat (my words) but pretty much sums it up! And Joran made her out to be one! Funny how we have her friends and family saying she was not a experienced girl, yet Joran makes it out to be easy...... Someone who didn't even "know" her! And we are supposed to believe it... right!

imo

I thought you also had to have sex before you could be charged with rape. That is my cause of wonderment until a few on the board explained to me the reasoning behind the charges as to how they could charge everyone with rape when there is zero evidence that a rape ocurred. I think I watch too much forensic files where they keep saying they found this but it is not enough to charge then they find this and it is still not enough, then they find the HUGE spot of blood and they say well obviously a murdeer ocurred go get the guy.

cassidy

08-08-2006, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by nascarmom

When have any of the other suspects been verbally attacked? This deserves a link.

I'd be interested in seeing those too.

cassidy

08-08-2006, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

How soon we forget the famous "Skeeter Tapes". Deepak was not "verbally attacked"??

imo

That was a verbal attack? I thought it was a severely botched effort to get Deepak to implicate Joran?

IMO

ebnrsg1

08-08-2006, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by nascarmom
No charges have been filed in the Holloway case.

Oops sorry about that. It is sometimes difficult to remember that when there have been people held in jail, law suits filed etc etc.
I think I must be brainwashed by cable news as they have already tried and convicted .

julianella

08-08-2006, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

1. yes, he did say he was sorry and offered to meet with Mrs. Twitty and her ex husband.

2. she left with 3 guys, and 2 of them have less of an alibi than Joran. So the point is, why does she focus so much on Joran.

3. the jello shot was what attracted his attention. Before that he wasn't even interested in her, even when told by her friend that Natalee was interested in HIM.

4. Unfortunately Joran didn't know Natalee before, so he had no way of knowing that she was studious, virginal, and inexperienced. As far as I have seen, he never said she was an "easy piece of meat" or anything of that nature.

5. When someone wants to explain why Joran is the only focus of Mrs. Twitty, I'll be glad to consider the explanation. Until then I'll note that the K2 have less of an alibi than he does, and a blue eyed Dutch boy punched Natalee in a bar 2 nights before her daughter went missing, and BHT doesn't seem to care.

There are many curious events during that vacation, with all the drinking. She doesn't care about anything or anyone except Joran, and I believe that's because Joran wrecks her carefully constructed fiction about her daughter's supposedly superior character.

IMO

Saying someone is sorry does not constitue remorse. He was more upset over Beth and her boycott then he was over Natalee being missing, during his interviews he was angry and showed emotion when discussing his family or where he lives, but had no emotion when talking about Natalee.

If he was not interested then why didn't he turn down the shot and persue the girl he was interested in?

The fact that Natalee was interested in him is interesting to me, I wonder what made her so comfortable? COuld it be that she had seen him throughtout her stay and that people she knew she been around him?

When a girl holds out persay for this long and has not been a just jump in the sack for a one night stand I find it odd to just do so with Joran, someone she had just met and knew nothing like that. Talking to young teens who have had sex and haven't their is a common trend. The girls who were sexually active more them once were more willing to have one night stands the girls who had done it once maybe twice were more cautious, and girls who never done it said that they are to afraid for a one night stand. Especially now a days when you can get anything at anything!

Perhaps she is not as hung up on Deepak becasue he was more forthi comming then Joran... Remember Deepak and Satish changed their story first, ANd Deepak and Satish were also released from jail first...

imo

cassidy

08-08-2006, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

The verbal attack happened on this (and many other) message board, that is the verbal attack what I were referring to.

imo

I was referring to verbal attacks on suspects other than Joran. Not verbal attacks on the Skeeter Tapes. Again, I have not seen any other suspect attacked in the manner and to the extent that Joran has been attacked. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

julianella

08-08-2006, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

No, they didn't say they saw him driving the car.

Really? Hmm from the link I have posted muiltiple times it states they knew him from seeing him driving the car!

"I then described Joran. At this point, I wasn't sure about his name. And they asked me what kind of car he drove. And I wasn't sure. And I said, "But we do know that he was in a silver or gray metallic car, small car with a large exhaust." One of the guys says, "Oh, that's Joran.""

Correct my statement, they knew who Joran was by describing Deepaks car. They didn't say that's Deepak, they said its Joran....hmmm

cassidy

08-08-2006, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

LOL, you would like everyone to believe it was the tapes that were verbally attacked and not Deepak himself?? Now that is funny and a perfect example of spinning.

imo

Yep, it was the veracity of the tapes and what was or was not stated in them that was being attacked. Not spinning at all.

IMO

julianella

08-08-2006, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush

She's not hung up on anyone but Joran, despite another man punching her daughter in the bar, and other suspects having less of an alibi than Joran.

I believe her vendetta against Joran is based on his interest in Natalee, based on Natalee showing him she was interested via the jello shot. Like I said before, Joran is the guy that is walking proof that Natalee was a normal 18 year old looking for fun, and that doesn't fit Mrs. Twitty's image of Natalee, she tries to define as Natalee knowing nothing of sexual matters at the age of 18.

But Joran, who Natalee was interested in, is the devil incarnate for returning the interest.

IMO

Why did Deepak and Satish get released BEFORE Joran? Surly they don't care what guy Natalee was interesed in or who she "chose"?

And Weren't they are called murderes? Rapists? Predators? Monsters? ect? Didn't Beth go on TV and plaed her case about the Kapole brothers when they were first released from Jial? Wasn't she angry and begging to not allow them to leave the country?

Hmm seems she was and is angry at all of thm!

julianella

08-08-2006, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

Nope, they were all "verbally attacked" (as you call it) in the beginning. Seems to me no other suspect deserves the defense that Joran does. Hmmmmm Wonder why?

You are correct, how quick people forget Beths public plea when the Kapole brothers were released from jail! imo

julianella

08-08-2006, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by victims feel
(SNIP)
I see no evil, I hear no evil, I speak no evil.

3 monkeys.

Better yet no body no case!

cassidy

08-08-2006, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by No Nic

THAT is their agenda, Vic.

imo

Who's agenda?

julianella

08-08-2006, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

Like I said, they never said Joran was driving the car.

It was a logical jump, Croes is defining a tall Dutch guy, and Deepaks car, who he hung around with.

Totally logical for the kids to say Oh that's Joran....(meaning the tall guy that hangs around with the guy who has the car)

IMO

Have you seen the two? No comparison! Deepak is not Dutch! It was Deepaks car, why was it that when it was described Deepak was not mentioned but Joran was?

cassidy

08-08-2006, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by julianella

Have you seen the two? No comparison! Deepak is not Dutch! It was Deepaks car, why was it that when it was described Deepak was not mentioned but Joran was?

Maybe because they were describing a tall white skinned person?

julianella

08-08-2006, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by victims feel
The others do not need defending . They doth protest too much me thinks NN!

They all come together in full circle when all suspects are rounded up!

Joran knows Freddie, GW, and Deepak, who is Satishs brother, who is friends with Steve Croes, who is friends with GVC, who has seen Joran around but never "spoke to him...

All connected but the SG's? Hmmm

julianella

08-08-2006, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by cassidy

Maybe because they were describing a tall white skinned person?

And why didn't they say well we don't know anyone who drives that car? Deepak and Joran are nothing a like so cannot possible be mistaken for each other!

When Deepaks car was described Joran was noamed! And why didn't they say hey the car belongs to Deepak but he does have a friend who is with him...and so on! Deepak was never mentioned! imo

julianella

08-08-2006, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Laurus

That was approximately a year ago.

So are you going to admit that they too were "verbally attacked" with no proof?

It happened right?

cassidy

08-08-2006, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by julianella

And why didn't they say well we don't know anyone who drives that car? Deepak and Joran are nothing a like so cannot possible be mistaken for each other!

When Deepaks car was described Joran was noamed! And why didn't they say hey the car belongs to Deepak but he does have a friend who is with him...and so on! Deepak was never mentioned! imo

Here's the quote again:
""I then described Joran. At this point, I wasn't sure about his name. And they asked me what kind of car he drove. And I wasn't sure. And I said, "But we do know that he was in a silver or gray metallic car, small car with a large exhaust." One of the guys says, "Oh, that's Joran.""

They said they did know he was IN a silver or gray metallic car. and got the response "oh that's Joran" No one said he was DRIVING the car.

julianella

08-08-2006, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by victims feel
How convenient J

George Smith: USA/TURKEY--no body but huge international case.

So much in this case is off.. The bloody mattress, the ALE covering the "dog" with the white sheet, the confession, whoopsy wait the non confession, the duct taped blond hair, the missing Fishermans hut stuff, the lies, the miscommunicats, all on this small island..... imo

cassidy

08-08-2006, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by victims feel
How convenient J

George Smith: USA/TURKEY--no body but huge international case. Yep and lots of blood evidence indicating something bad happened to him.

julianella

08-08-2006, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by cassidy

Here's the quote again:
""I then described Joran. At this point, I wasn't sure about his name. And they asked me what kind of car he drove. And I wasn't sure. And I said, "But we do know that he was in a silver or gray metallic car, small car with a large exhaust." One of the guys says, "Oh, that's Joran.""

They said they did know he was IN a silver or gray metallic car. and got the response "oh that's Joran" No one said he was DRIVING the car.

I CORRECTED MY STATEMENT ABOUT DRIVING!

And I stated that why didn't they say Deepak? Why didn't they say Deepaks car? Why was joran the ONLY one mentioned?