General Discussion /Post Karr

[hoopa7p@aol.com]

Originally posted by GrrlPwer
there was DNA found in her panties but there was NO semen..............get busy googling honey.


Not to be gross but it was described by one of the commentators on the news today as containing mucous.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by hoopa7p@aol.com



Not to be gross but it was described by one of the commentators on the news today as containing mucous.

"mucous"?

You mean some type of saliva or from nasal drainage perhaps?

I dont think CODIS will ever get a hit on this male killer. Imo I think he is probably dead by now.

May mother and child both rest in peace now.

IMO

Ocean

[lovebites*]

Originally posted by GrrlPwer
there was DNA found in her panties but there was NO semen..............get busy googling honey.

"honey"? :no:

[Former Juror]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


Can you share how/why you think the accident took place?

Hi. :) By accident, I mean that Jonbenet's death was not a premeditated murder. IMO, Patsy did not set out that evening to hurt her daughter, but I believe something happened that was subsequently covered up.

The ransom note was written on paper from the home. There were 'drafts'. Patsy cannot be excluded as the writer. Patsy was wearing the same clothes as the night before. Fibers from that outfit were found on the paint tray and duct tape used on Jonbenet. The house was searched, and her body was not found until John searched with a friend, i.e. witness. These are just a few issues that point toward the family.

And, regarding all of the CBS links, 48 Hours and CBS news lost all credibility on this case when they chose sides, IMO. Reading those links certainly brought back old memories. But, everyone needs to accept that there are reasonable people who believe they did it, and reasonable people who believe they are innocent.

[socaldiva]

Originally posted by Former Juror
[B]*snip*
Patsy was wearing the same clothes as the night before.

According to Patsy in "Death of Innocence", she was in her underwear when she found the note, so she tossed on the first clothes she came across :shrug:

I think if they had anything on the family, they would have been charged long ago.

[cookiedog]

Rest in peace, Patsy. The last interview I saw with her, I thought she looked pale and tired.

I thought when it happened and I still think their son either knew what was going on or killed her. I think the parents happened upon the boy trying to deal with her injured or dead body. THen I think her dad put her in the basement or killed her in the basement.

He just seems like an odd duck. I also think he was very much off Patsy's radar. She put all her energy into Jonbenet's life and everyone kind of ignored the boy. Did you notice he was not with his mother when she died? Only her dad and husband.

[elroh6]

I'm only posting now. 'cause I totally agree with MissOtisRegrets and socaldiva. When I first learned of her passing, i expected criticism. I'm on major dental pain crap, so I hope I'm not repeating myself. Many "pageant "moms seem/are wierd. I don't want to go off on that tangent. Some THs are saying how sad it is that Patsy died without ever having a resolution ro her daughter's murder. but I choose to look at it like :well, now she knows, and they're together

[candykisses]

:rose: :rose: :rose:

REST IN PEACE with YOUR BABY GIRL PATSY.

[garfieldlea68]

It is so sad that Patsy Ramsey died before finding out what happened to jonbenet
It's very heartbreaking

[luvnaz]

My son is the same age as Jon Benet...and she would be 15 years old this year. I can't imagine the terror she felt when she died in that horrible manner and the pain of losing her her family went through. The investigation was a fiasco and if any one is to blame for her killer not being identified it is the detectives. Thanks to DNA we may yet find her killer.

I sincerely hope that Patsy and her daughter are reunited and are at peace now.

:rose:

[socaldiva]

Originally posted by elroh6
[B]*snip* I'm on major dental pain crap, so I hope I'm not repeating myself.

Aw, hope you feel better soon & no, you didn't repeat yourself :seeya:

[canUCme?]

I heard this Saturday. I told my husband that I'm sure that JB came to get her.
Her last years were sure hard ones. I felt very sorry for her. The Bolder police really blew that case all to he$$.

RIP Patsy.
:rose:

Originally posted by Vanilla~Bean


Other than saying (which I doubt you'll listen to, or care about), that this thread isn't the place to bash Patsy Ramsey if anyone has the least iota of decency, I'll just say in response to your post that no one thought that Elizabeth Smart would come waltzing home one day either.

Strange things DO happen, and none of us know precise details of any factual information other than little Jon Benet lost her life that day.

Now, can we leave it at that, and keep this thread for the reverence of the deceased - both Patty AND Jon Benet?

Don't forget, Patty was Jon Benet's mommy and undoubtedly loved her immensely.

If you still need to bash Patty, please by all means, carry on. :rolleyes:

If you are so much for reverance for these two the least you could do would be to spell their names corretly.

the name is PATSY (NOT PATTY) and the correct spelling of JonBenet is that. NO space in between no 2 n's ect... its JonBenet and PATSY

sheesh

[cami]

Originally posted by Will05
Patsy already knows what happened to Jon Benet. Patsy murdered her.

If she did she took the secret with her. NO deathbed confession. No justice for JonBenet.

[Jadedblueeyes]

When this case first unfolded imo Patsy Ramsey was made out to be abnormal because she placed JonBenet in these beauty pageants. The true facts are that all these mothers do the same thing with their little girl. They have the same skimpy costumes, heavy makeup and their hairdos puffed out. This is one of the reasons that many mothers do not place their children in these kind of pageants. But Patsy was far from being abnormal.

What is equally true is that children can also be playing in their own yard with their siblings under the water sprinkler and can be taken too with devastating results.

No child is ever fully protected from a pedophile.

Since there is no DNA match coming up on Codis imo I think it was someone that knew JonBenet without her pageant attire...just as a beautiful bubbly child....I think they became fixated with her and they came back.

IMO

Ocean

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by canUCme?
I heard this Saturday. I told my husband that I'm sure that JB came to get her.
Her last years were sure hard ones. I felt very sorry for her. The Bolder police really blew that case all to he$$.

RIP Patsy.
:rose:

Patsy!:rose: JonBenet :rose: Together at last.

Ocean

[bandit's mom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TexMex


Hi redrobin

That's the main reason I never bought into the Ramseys doing this crime.

I've known people battling cancer and it puts life into proper perspective VERY quickly. Nobody who had stage 4 cancer is going to kill their daughter over wetting the bed, IMO


That's actually a very good point and one I hadn't thought of
before. I'm totally on the fence on this one. I'm a bit of a
true crime buff and have opinions on most well publicized
murders from JFK to Jeffrey MacDonald to OJ. But this one
I've never been able to make sense of. The "intruder" idea
doesn't wash for me because of the ransom note. Yet the
idea that either parent could have done this intentionally
and the other would cover is really hard for me as well.
I do believe the parents know/knew more than they have
said, but whether that means there was some type of accident
they tried to cover (perhaps the brother accidentally killed
her?) I just don't know.

If Patsy was innocent, I hope she's at peace now and with
her daughter.

[bandit's mom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MiamiNice1
[B]

This is a believable theory, iminca. Or maybe I just want to believe that it was anyone other than the parents. It's just too ugly to wrap my head around the fact that it could be either of the parents.


Jeffrey MacDonald
Darlie Routier
Susan Smith
Andrea Yates

There's alot more that don't come readily to my mind. I agree
it's a horrifying though, but, sadly, it happens.

[MissOtisRegrets]

The cover-up for an accident never made sense to me. Why not just call 911 and say that JonBenet fell? Why strangle the child with a garrotte made with your own paint brush and then leave it around her neck for the police? Why write a ransom note with your own pen and paper? Why not take the body to the woods before calling police?

I think this crime was directed as much against the Ramseys as against JonBenet. There is so much hate in it.

MOO

[bandit's mom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
[B]The cover-up for an accident never made sense to me. Why not just call 911 and say that JonBenet fell? Why strangle the child with a garrotte made with your own paint brush and then leave it around her neck for the police? Why write a ransom note with your own pen and paper? Why not take the body to the woods before calling police?

If your son was responsible for the "accident", say he pushed
or hit her a little too hard, maybe you don't want him
labeled for life as the boy who killed his sister? It's just
a possibility, as I said, I don't know what happened. I guess
the main problems I have with the intruder theory are the
ransome letter being written on their stationary. I don't
believe a kidnapper comes into a home and THEN writes
the ransom note. I do feel, and always have, that Patsy
wrote the letter as an attempt to throw the police off. The only
reason I can come up with for that is if she was either
guilty herself, or covering for someone she loved.
The other problem I have is the fact that JonBenet was
found in the basement. If the intent is to kidnap her,
why not get her out of the house? The trip to the basement
could be explained if the intent was to molest her, it's far
away from everyone else and it's less likely you'd be heard,
but if molestation was the reason, why the ransom letter?
To me the letter just muddies all the other theories.

[canUCme?]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


Patsy!:rose: JonBenet :rose: Together at last.

Ocean

Absolutely my friend, absolutely!
"C"

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by bandit's mom
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
[B]The cover-up for an accident never made sense to me. Why not just call 911 and say that JonBenet fell? Why strangle the child with a garrotte made with your own paint brush and then leave it around her neck for the police? Why write a ransom note with your own pen and paper? Why not take the body to the woods before calling police?

If your son was responsible for the "accident", say he pushed
or hit her a little too hard, maybe you don't want him
labeled for life as the boy who killed his sister? It's just
a possibility, as I said, I don't know what happened. I guess
the main problems I have with the intruder theory are the
ransome letter being written on their stationary. I don't
believe a kidnapper comes into a home and THEN writes
the ransom note. I do feel, and always have, that Patsy
wrote the letter as an attempt to throw the police off. The only
reason I can come up with for that is if she was either
guilty herself, or covering for someone she loved.
The other problem I have is the fact that JonBenet was
found in the basement. If the intent is to kidnap her,
why not get her out of the house? The trip to the basement
could be explained if the intent was to molest her, it's far
away from everyone else and it's less likely you'd be heard,
but if molestation was the reason, why the ransom letter?
To me the letter just muddies all the other theories.

The whole thing is very strange. I don't think it is a cover-up by the Ramseys, though, because pieces that were unnecessary to include in a cover-up (garrotte, own stationery, own pen, etc.) point directly to Patsy without any attempt to disguise them. The killer used what was available in the house. I do think he brought a stun gun with him.

I think it's possible it was an intended kidnapping. Leopold and Loeb killed their victim immediately but sent a ransom note. I think the killer entered the home while the Ramseys were at the party and was there for some time by himself. It may have been planned that the letter would be written and sent later but he had the time and the means to write it while he waited. I think a stun gun was used on JonBenet and she was carried downstairs. She was murdered in the basement. I think the killer may have tried and failed to get her out the basement window. There would have been no reason for the Ramseys to write a ransom note and then find the body. Better to just have JonBenet disappear or be found in the woods, if they were planning to stage a kidnapping.

I admit all this is bizarre. But I don't think it is the Ramseys' doing. I think it is the killer's.

All MOO

[MissOtisRegrets]

IMO if a person is going to attempt a cover-up, they remove things that point to themselves. They don't add them.

[canUCme?]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
IMO if a person is going to attempt a cover-up, they remove things that point to themselves. They don't add them.

I don't think they do either Miss O. The press, the police (the inempt police I might add), and their peers prosecuted them and made their life a living hell.
I agree with the poster who said that Patsy and JonBenet know all of the secrets now. They are at peace.
I believe that the Ramsey's were totally innocent.
JMOO.
"C"

[canUCme?]

Originally posted by richmonds-t
Whatever happened to the old man that played Santa? Did they ever test him?

I don't remember how long ago I head this (actually my husband told he had read it in the Tribune) that this man had died.
Has anyone else heard that?

[rondata II]

Originally posted by socaldiva


According to Patsy in "Death of Innocence", she was in her underwear when she found the note, so she tossed on the first clothes she came across :shrug:

I think if they had anything on the family, they would have been charged long ago.

Her book was written after officers, investigators and critic made a big deal out of the clothes.

(IMO) that book was written to answer every nagging question that came to the minds of investigators, to the print of the tabloids, or to the mind of any person watching on.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Today on CC:

http://www.courttv.com/onair/shows/crierlive/

MOM OF JON BENET RAMSEY DIES THEN, HOW WILL THE DEATH OF JON BENET RAMSEY'S MOTHER AFFECT THE ON-GOING INVESTIGATION INTO HER MURDER?

[rondata II]

Originally posted by rondata II


Her book was written after officers, investigators and critic made a big deal out of the clothes.

(IMO) that book was written to answer every nagging question that came to the minds of investigators, to the print of the tabloids, or to the mind of any person watching on.


Also she was wearing makeup and lipstick from what I remember. Who finds a ransom note, puts their clothes on, puts on makeup and then waits for the police?

Sorry, I don't know if she's g or not, but man.. too much stuff that just doesn't add up.

Look at runion and van damm cases. That's what pedos do.. they don't leave long winded notes and torture the victim using supplies from the house!

[Former Juror]

Originally posted by rondata II



Also she was wearing makeup and lipstick from what I remember. Who finds a ransom note, puts their clothes on, puts on makeup and then waits for the police?

Sorry, I don't know if she's g or not, but man.. too much stuff that just doesn't add up.

Look at runion and van damm cases. That's what pedos do.. they don't leave long winded notes and torture the victim using supplies from the house!

Exactly.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Thursday, June 29th, CTV:

10:00 PM Jon Benet: Anatomy of a Cold Case

[socaldiva]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Thursday, June 29th, CTV:

10:00 PM Jon Benet: Anatomy of a Cold Case

Thanks for the heads up Miss O.

[White Dove]

Will they ever find out what
happen!!!!

[Babby~A]

Originally posted by White Dove
Will they ever find out what
happen!!!!

I don't think so.

[analissa]

Originally posted by canUCme?
...I believe that the Ramsey's were totally innocent...

ITA. :rose:

[kathryn]

Originally posted by Will05
Patsy already knows what happened to Jon Benet. Patsy murdered her.

Why do you think Patsy Ramsey did it?

[hpe2bme_chick]

I can't believe it's been ten years since Jon Benet Ramsey was murdered. That's a case that's haunting.

Just an observation...

[Diva]

Well.....actually not quite ten years yet. 12/26/97.

Don't think this case will ever be solved. Maybe Patsy took some secrets to her grave-JMHO!

[Diva]

BTW: There's a long discussion in Open Court

[Jadedblueeyes]

Greta just had the guy that administered 3 polygraphs to Patsy and 2 polygraphs to John. This man has done over 40,000 polygraphs.

He said both John and Patsy Ramsey passed all test with flying colors. No deception ...no lies.

Poor Patsy and John they tried to tell the world and no one wanted to listen.:rose:

IMO

Ocean

[Former Juror]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes
Greta just had the guy that administered 3 polygraphs to Patsy and 2 polygraphs to John. This man has done over 40,000 polygraphs.

He said both John and Patsy Ramsey passed all test with flying colors. No deception ...no lies.

Poor Patsy and John they tried to tell the world and no one wanted to listen.:rose:

IMO

Ocean

1. Did the Ramsey's hire him?

2. I found Dr. Lee and Dr. Baden's interviews very telling. It was obvious who Dr. Baden thinks did it, IMO. Dr. Lee was a little more wishy-washy. But, he obviously has his suspicions as well.

[socaldiva]

Originally posted by Former Juror
*snip*

Dr. Lee was a little more wishy-washy. But, he obviously has his suspicions as well.

The same Dr Lee that thought there was a second set of footprints left at Bundy relative to the Simpson murder, only to find out the footprint was cast in CEMENT when the condo was built. "Something wrong" alright, with Dr. Lee :tongue:

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by Former Juror


1. Did the Ramsey's hire him?

2. I found Dr. Lee and Dr. Baden's interviews very telling. It was obvious who Dr. Baden thinks did it, IMO. Dr. Lee was a little more wishy-washy. But, he obviously has his suspicions as well.

I really dont know nor do I actually care FJ. This man's world does not rise or fall on the Ramsey polygraphs. I believe they said he was a retired FBI Examiner. With 40,000 plus examinations I would think he is highly qualified and that is an understatement. I am sure he still continues to do polygraphs for either side. (He did mention something about the new DA though......doesnt Greta have transcripts?)

Suspicions aren't evidence. There has never been any evidence showing who murdered JonBenet. Personally I think the pedophile murderer is dead now or long gone probably and this case will never be solved.

LOL! Oh you mean the Dr. Lee who thought the murder scene where Kathleen Peterson died had too much blood for it to have been a murder. lol

IMO

Ocean

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin
Have you read the book "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" by Schiller (Vanilla B recommended above)? I haven't had much time to get into it, but so far it is very interesting.

Hi Rosy.

No I haven't. I have picked it up and looked at it a few times when I was at the book store.

I may buy it ....which way is it slanted?

IMO

Ocean

[Former Juror]

I just thought Baden's and Lee's comments were interesting. Nothing more, nothing less.

As far as Lee, I think he is a good guy that provides evidence to prove the theory of whoever hired him. So, no, I don't give him any more credence than I do a polygrapher hired by a potential murder suspect.

Dr. Baden was the one I was surprised about during Greta's interview. He seemed to want to say more but said a lot without actually saying it........if that makes sense.

[rondata II]

Originally posted by Former Juror


1. Did the Ramsey's hire him?

2. I found Dr. Lee and Dr. Baden's interviews very telling. It was obvious who Dr. Baden thinks did it, IMO. Dr. Lee was a little more wishy-washy. But, he obviously has his suspicions as well.

Didn't they have to submit a list of questions, at which time P & J had time to mull over the answers for a few days before they were actually put to the pollygraph test? (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure that's how it went down.

Didn't they REFUSE to allow the FBI to test them?

[LeisaKat]

I hope that the Ramsey men can have some peace. I do not beleive that the Ramseys ever had anything to do with their daughters death, and nor do I beklieve they know anything.

It seemed so odd to have a child killed in thier own home. But I remember the Smart family. Look how people attacked them. Or the run away brides poor fiance.

I think that the pagent thing got to a lot of people. But it is a business, a big business in many parts of this country.

Patsy came across cold to many, she wasn' the warmest of people, at least on TV. That does not make her a killer.

I don't think the Boulder Police were the most honest when giving information.

Geraldo had them convicted before all the facts came to life. If I remember right he even had a mock trial on his daytime show. Findiong the Ramseys guilty.

I pray that this will be solved, but I have my doubts.

[LeisaKat]

I wanted to add, that I was surprised how kind most of the posters were on this sad thread. I thank you for yu kindness.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by Former Juror
I just thought Baden's and Lee's comments were interesting. Nothing more, nothing less.

As far as Lee, I think he is a good guy that provides evidence to prove the theory of whoever hired him. So, no, I don't give him any more credence than I do a polygrapher hired by a potential murder suspect.

Dr. Baden was the one I was surprised about during Greta's interview. He seemed to want to say more but said a lot without actually saying it........if that makes sense.

What was Baden talking about when he said a Federal Judge had ruled the Ramseys innocent?

TIA

Ocean

[candykisses]

Originally posted by LeisaKat
I hope that the Ramsey men can have some peace. I do not beleive that the Ramseys ever had anything to do with their daughters death, and nor do I beklieve they know anything.

It seemed so odd to have a child killed in thier own home. But I remember the Smart family. Look how people attacked them. Or the run away brides poor fiance.

I think that the pagent thing got to a lot of people. But it is a business, a big business in many parts of this country.

Patsy came across cold to many, she wasn' the warmest of people, at least on TV. That does not make her a killer.

I don't think the Boulder Police were the most honest when giving information.

Geraldo had them convicted before all the facts came to life. If I remember right he even had a mock trial on his daytime show. Findiong the Ramseys guilty.

I pray that this will be solved, but I have my doubts.

My sentiments too Leisa, but I will still continue to have hope a match will eventually be found. I truly do not believe it was inside the family on Christmas, I JUST DON'T and can understand how exasperated PATSY AND JOHN USED TO GET WITH ALL OF THE WILD ACCUSATIONS.

[Former Juror]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


What was Baden talking about when he said a Federal Judge had ruled the Ramseys innocent?

TIA

Ocean

He said he didn't want to express his suspicions because of that and a few other things. I was talking to the t.v. saying, "Please express them, Dr. Baden!!!!" He in no way implied that he thought they were innocent. He tried to skirt the issue, IMO, but didn't do as good of job of it as Dr. Lee did. Both of them could have very easily said, "I think an intruder did it.". But, they didn't. And, one of them commented about all of the evidence that points to the family.

BTW, nobody can rule anyone innocent without a trial. The judge can have an opinion, just as you and I can.

[Nancy#1Fan]

What about the pineapple? An "intruding- murdering -pedophile -kidnapper" fed JonBenet before the trip to the basement?

Someone in that house killed her and the staging began.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by Former Juror


He said he didn't want to express his suspicions because of that and a few other things. I was talking to the t.v. saying, "Please express them, Dr. Baden!!!!" He in no way implied that he thought they were innocent. He tried to skirt the issue, IMO, but didn't do as good of job of it as Dr. Lee did. Both of them could have very easily said, "I think an intruder did it.". But, they didn't. And, one of them commented about all of the evidence that points to the family.

BTW, nobody can rule anyone innocent without a trial. The judge can have an opinion, just as you and I can.

I truly dont know anything about a Federal Judge concerning this case but boy you could tell Baden sure knows and seemed scared to discuss his thoughts. Was the evidence gathered presented to this Federal Judge?

What did this Judge say and when?

Thanks.

IMO

Ocean:seeya:

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by Nancy#1Fan
What about the pineapple? An "intruding- murdering -pedophile -kidnapper" fed JonBenet before the trip to the basement?

Someone in that house killed her and the staging began.

I think someone came in there that JB knew...someone who coaxed and soothed her.......giver her false trust like it was some special game. I think he came in the window and gently woke her up and she felt comfortable because she had been around him before and he was "nice and friendly", imo.

IMO

Ocean

[rondata II]

Originally posted by richmonds-t




Pineapple?????


She had pineapple in her tummy shortly before she died.. indicating that she recently ate it because it was still in her stomach and not in her intestines..

[luvnaz]

Stomach contents are an unreliable way to tell when a person died. So the pineapple she ate shouldn't be used to say when she died. I don't recall when she was supposed to have eaten it, but I do know that she wasn't gently taken down to the kitchen for a snack! There is clear evidence the killer used a stun gun on her and took her to the basement!

Another poster up thread said they were suspicious of Patsy because she came to the kitchen and found the ransom note and already had her makeup on. In her statements to police she told them she had awoken at around 5:30 am and put on her makeup and fixed her hair and then went down the backstairs and found the ransom note. She wasn't dressed, so she went back upstairs to alert John who had been showering and threw on her clothes from the night before and then went downstairs again, with John.

Unknown DNA from the killer was found in her panties and under her nails. That rules out her parents and siblings 100% always! No one is ruling out someone she knew...but using a stun gun isn't "nice and friendly". We have to use the facts of the case to discover the truth. Not suppositions and unreliable testing and falsities.

[SilSal]

and the DA of Boulder is going to the funeral on a personal basis....she is suppose to be finding the killer but decided on her own that an intruder did this.

The Ramsey's spin team have done a great job of covering for them.

All the shows you see on TV regarding this murder were backed by Ramsey supporters..the others who make negative statements get sued.

There was NO intruder..forencics/science has proven this..no one crawled through that window like Loose Smit has suggested...

Read the archiveJMO

[Nancy#1Fan]

Originally posted by richmonds-t



So this would mean she didn't eat it at the party?

No, there was a bowl found in the kitchen, and guess whose finger prints were on it? PATSY's

[debbmos]

Originally posted by Nancy#1Fan


No, there was a bowl found in the kitchen, and guess whose finger prints were on it? PATSY's

Show a link please thank you

[luvnaz]

To become clear about the facts of the case this is good reading since we seem to be rehashing this whole case and still believing the Ramsey's had something to do with this even though all the evidence shows differently.

Page 5 is particularly good factual information.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/it_5.html

[Nancy#1Fan]

Originally posted by luvnaz
Stomach contents are an unreliable way to tell when a person died. So the pineapple she ate shouldn't be used to say when she died. I don't recall when she was supposed to have eaten it, but I do know that she wasn't gently taken down to the kitchen for a snack! There is clear evidence the killer used a stun gun on her and took her to the basement!

Another poster up thread said they were suspicious of Patsy because she came to the kitchen and found the ransom note and already had her makeup on. In her statements to police she told them she had awoken at around 5:30 am and put on her makeup and fixed her hair and then went down the backstairs and found the ransom note. She wasn't dressed, so she went back upstairs to alert John who had been showering and threw on her clothes from the night before and then went downstairs again, with John.

Unknown DNA from the killer was found in her panties and under her nails. That rules out her parents and siblings 100% always! No one is ruling out someone she knew...but using a stun gun isn't "nice and friendly". We have to use the facts of the case to discover the truth. Not suppositions and unreliable testing and falsities.

First, there is no proof that a stun gun was used. The medical examiner described them as abrasions, not burns. Only person's working on the Ramsey's behalf and those with a vested interest ever claimed a stun gun was used, by viewing photographs.

( It's called manufacturing reasonable doubt, the Ramsey's got what they paid for)

Secondly, it depends which version of Patsy's story you're a fan of, she has given several versions attempting to explain why it appeared that she never made it to bed the night her daughter was murdered.

This is not now and never was a DNA case. There is no official document anywhere that says the DNA from underwear & fingernails match and it came from the murderer.

[mellymel]

Did anyone watch Greta last night? She was talking to the guy who did the polygraph tests on the Ramseys. He said they passed with flying colors all five test taken 3 by Patsy and two by John.

[Nancy#1Fan]

Originally posted by luvnaz
Stomach contents are an unreliable way to tell when a person died. So the pineapple she ate shouldn't be used to say when she died. I don't recall when she was supposed to have eaten it, but I do know that she wasn't gently taken down to the kitchen for a snack! There is clear evidence the killer used a stun gun on her and took her to the basement!

Another poster up thread said they were suspicious of Patsy because she came to the kitchen and found the ransom note and already had her makeup on. In her statements to police she told them she had awoken at around 5:30 am and put on her makeup and fixed her hair and then went down the backstairs and found the ransom note. She wasn't dressed, so she went back upstairs to alert John who had been showering and threw on her clothes from the night before and then went downstairs again, with John.

Unknown DNA from the killer was found in her panties and under her nails. That rules out her parents and siblings 100% always! No one is ruling out someone she knew...but using a stun gun isn't "nice and friendly". We have to use the facts of the case to discover the truth. Not suppositions and unreliable testing and falsities.

"On November 19, 2002, The Rocky Mountain News reported the unknown male DNA recovered from JonBenet's panties could have been left on the garment at the time the clothing was manufactured. "In exploring that theory, investigators obtained unopened 'control' samples of identical underwear manufactured in the plant in Southeast Asia, tested them and found human DNA in some of those new, unused panties."

Police now claim that the unidentified DNA found under both of JonBenet's fingernails has been contaminated and is of limited value."

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/feb_13.html

[luvnaz]

Originally posted by Nancy#1Fan


"On November 19, 2002, The Rocky Mountain News reported the unknown male DNA recovered from JonBenet's panties could have been left on the garment at the time the clothing was manufactured. "In exploring that theory, investigators obtained unopened 'control' samples of identical underwear manufactured in the plant in Southeast Asia, tested them and found human DNA in some of those new, unused panties."

Police now claim that the unidentified DNA found under both of JonBenet's fingernails has been contaminated and is of limited value."

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/feb_13.html


Thank you for that. I had not heard that the fingernail DNA was not usable. That is really terrible to know. More incompetence by investigators?

But does the DNA from the panties come from a South East Asian person where they were manufactured or from an unknown source? That is still open isn't it?

[Nancy#1Fan]

Originally posted by mellymel
Did anyone watch Greta last night? She was talking to the guy who did the polygraph tests on the Ramseys. He said they passed with flying colors all five test taken 3 by Patsy and two by John.

The Ramsey's refused to talk with LE for 4 months. All of their time effort and money was spent, not looking for the killer....but for their own defense

They refused to take an FBI polygraph and took several by other polygraphers, failed and were inconclusive before finally "passing" (the guy on Greta) and announcing it .

[Rocky]

The problem I always had, and always will have with this case, is how poorly it was handled from the beginning.

John and Patsy and Burke should have been removed from the home immediately, seperated, and questioned. LE should have gone through the entire home and found the body.

IF IF IF John or Patsy is guilty of wrong doing, any chances of proving that were lost in the two hours that followed the 911 call.


As a side note, it seems highly unlikely to me that a stranger would enter, write a ransom note, and then batter, molest, and kill Jon Benet right under her own roof with her parents in the home. Highly unlikely. Not impossible though.

[Nancy#1Fan]

Originally posted by luvnaz



Thank you for that. I had not heard that the fingernail DNA was not usable. That is really terrible to know. More incompetence by investigators?

But does the DNA from the panties come from a South East Asian person where they were manufactured or from an unknown source? That is still open isn't it?

The source was probably from a cough or sneeze and was sooooo minuscule that I believe it probably occurred during the manufacturing process.

[Nancy#1Fan]

Originally posted by richmonds-t
Nancy#1...

May I ask why you are so sure Patsy did this and why?

I don't know if she murdered her but I am certain she took part in the staging.

I believe she wrote the ransom note

phrases she used regularly, the length and the deliberate spelling errors

using her note pad, her pen, replacing the cap of the pen and returning it to it's holder

her paint brush was broken to use for the garrote and the part that wasn't used was returned to her paint tray.

Red fibers consistent with the red jacket she wore were found in the paint tray, in the basement and on the duct tape that covered JonBenet's mouth ( tape was placed after she died)
That piece of duct tape was removed in the basement and couldn't have been transferred when Patsy threw herself on top of JonBenet upstairs.

The pineapple

refusing to be interviewed separately by LE

[Nancy#1Fan]

Originally posted by richmonds-t



I have heard the cough or sneeze thing but how do we know the underwear were new? They could have been washed several times.

The underwear were new, they were from a "days of the week" new pack and were originally purchased as a gift for someone else, they were waaaay too big for JonBenet. But JonBenet wanted them and begged Patsy for some. Patsy didn't get a chance to buy her some, I think that's why she was redressed with a pair of those. Patsy felt bad.

They were size 12, she was a size 6.

[Nancy#1Fan]

Originally posted by rondata II


Didn't they have to submit a list of questions, at which time P & J had time to mull over the answers for a few days before they were actually put to the pollygraph test? (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure that's how it went down.

Didn't they REFUSE to allow the FBI to test them?

YEP

[Nancy#1Fan]

Originally posted by SilSal
and the DA of Boulder is going to the funeral on a personal basis....she is suppose to be finding the killer but decided on her own that an intruder did this.

The Ramsey's spin team have done a great job of covering for them.

All the shows you see on TV regarding this murder were backed by Ramsey supporters..the others who make negative statements get sued.

There was NO intruder..forencics/science has proven this..no one crawled through that window like Loose Smit has suggested...

Read the archiveJMO

:beer:

[iminca]

Here's a link to a recent, and I think it was the last interview with Patsy.

About half way down.

Recent GMA stories

Patsy Ramsey Dead at 49 | STORY

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/?CMP=google_bcast&partner=google&gclid=CIfRn6P45YUCFSV6GgodiSGhvA

Rest in Peace Patsy.
None of this matters anymore.
You're with your baby girl.

:rose: :rose:

[Deepwater]

Curtain Closes On Travesty of Justice
by Marilyn Bardsley

Patsy Ramsey will be laid to rest this week next to her daughter, JonBenet, bringing down the final curtain on one of the nastiest media spectacles in American history. From the day in 1996 that her daughter was discovered murdered until her death on June 25, Patsy Ramsey suffered. Some of that suffering could not have been avoided: despite having the best treatment available, ovarian cancer finally took her life. But her worst suffering was at the hands of an incompetent local government, an unbelievably sadistic media campaign and an audience that reveled in her torment.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0606/2601_patsy_ramsey_dead.html

[Deepwater]

Curtain Closes on Travesty of Justice
by Marilyn Bardsley

Crime Library) — Patsy Ramsey will be laid to rest this week next to her daughter, JonBenet, bringing down the final curtain on one of the nastiest media spectacles in American history. From the day in 1996 that her daughter was discovered murdered until her death on June 25, Patsy Ramsey suffered. Some of that suffering could not have been avoided: despite having the best treatment available, ovarian cancer finally took her life. But her worst suffering was at the hands of an incompetent local government, an unbelievably sadistic media campaign and an audience that reveled in her torment.

Full story
http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0606/2601_patsy_ramsey_dead.html

[Bush4Prez]

Originally posted by Will05
I could go on & on about why I believe Patsy Ramsey is guilty. I'll just start from the tip of the iceberg. First is the ransom note. I have looked at her handwriting compared to the ransom note & it's nearly a match of Patsy's handwriting. The main thing is the handwriting experts thought that it matched. The pen & notepad all came from the house. Next is she came to the door at 5 am that morning with full make-up & the same clothes she had on the night before.

Steve Thomas, who was one of the lead detectives in the case, had a theory which I believe happened and his theory is that Patsy Ramsey accidentally killed JonBenet in a late-night rage over a bed-wetting incident and then covered it up as a botched kidnapping. I absolutley believe that is what happened. There is no way a stranger could be in that house that long without being detected. Not to mention the notepad & pen to write the ransom note came from that house.

One of the points the Ramseys' like to mention as evidence of an intruder is the broken window in the basement. A few things wrong with that. First is there was a spider web in front of the window that was undisturbed. Second is there were no footprints in the snow outside of the window.

Now having said all of that I don't think they could have ever proven it because it was a botched crime scene from the start. It didn't help matters any when John Ramsey took JonBenet's body from the basement & brought it upstairs to "cry" all over it. Patsy also hugged her body. The cover up was still going on even when the police were there. The Ramsey's had money & lawyers with small town police officers who had never even dealt with a murder. If this crime had occured in a big city Patsy would have died of cancer in prison. John also for helping cover it up. This is just my opinion but I honestly believe this is close to what happened.

You don't even have all the facts straight. If you're going to accuse someone, please get all the facts.

[Deepwater]

Crime Library has a major feature story on the JonBenet case.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html

[Bush4Prez]

Originally posted by Will05
Travesty of Justice? Justice was slightly served when Patsy received her death sentence via cancer. She's a murderer.

I cannot believe how cold you are.


For your information, Patsy was diagnosed with Ovarian Cancer in 1993, long before her daughter was murdered. So, you see, you are wrong when you say "Patsy received her death sentence via cancer". Her cancer was in remission for a long period time.

[Bush4Prez]

Originally posted by Will05
Yes Jon Benet does know who her killer is. It's Patsy.

Why don't you get your facts straight before you go spouting off at the mouth.

[Former Juror]

Nancy, thanks for all of your information. I completely forgot about the pineapple. John and Patsy said Jonbenet fell asleep on the drive home and they immediately put her in bed. We know she ate pineapple at home after the party, and Patsy's prints are on the bowl. There is no way an intruder fed, killed and hid Jonbenet, wrote the ransom note after several drafts and then left, leaving no evidence.

Dr. Baden or Dr. Lee, I can't remember which, talked again about the DNA and that it is probably from someone at the factory where the panties were made. I posted the same thing here yesterday. And, Nancy gave better detail today.

As one of the TH's said last night, there is too much evidence the Ramseys have had to explain away. One or two things, maybe. But, the totality of the evidence is incriminating.

[sebastiana]

Originally posted by Former Juror
Nancy, thanks for all of your information. I completely forgot about the pineapple. John and Patsy said Jonbenet fell asleep on the drive home and they immediately put her in bed. We know she ate pineapple at home after the party, and Patsy's prints are on the bowl. There is no way an intruder fed, killed and hid Jonbenet, wrote the ransom note after several drafts and then left, leaving no evidence.

Dr. Baden or Dr. Lee, I can't remember which, talked again about the DNA and that it is probably from someone at the factory where the panties were made. I posted the same thing here yesterday. And, Nancy gave better detail today.

As one of the TH's said last night, there is too much evidence the Ramseys have had to explain away. One or two things, maybe. But, the totality of the evidence is incriminating.

Jonbenet could have gotten out of her bed and ate pineapple, unbeknownst by her parents. Children sometimes sneak things when they aren't supposed to have them. We really don't know why she had eaten the pineapple when she did, just that she probably did, but it makes no sense for her mom to have fed it to her then killed her.

[Former Juror]

Originally posted by sebastiana


Jonbenet could have gotten out of her bed and ate pineapple, unbeknownst by her parents. Children sometimes sneak things when they aren't supposed to have them. We really don't know why she had eaten the pineapple when she did, just that she probably did, but it makes no sense for her mom to have fed it to her then killed her.

I think she ate it when they got home and then went to bed shortly thereafter.

[Nancy#1Fan]

Originally posted by Former Juror


I think she ate it when they got home and then went to bed shortly thereafter.

Then why would Mr & Mrs Ramsy lie about it?

[Former Juror]

Originally posted by Nancy#1Fan


Then why would Mr & Mrs Ramsy lie about it?

Because they are guilty, IMO.

[rondata II]

Originally posted by richmonds-t



So this would mean she didn't eat it at the party?

I believe that after a few hours stomach starts to break up and go into the intestines. Stuff that still is partially whole and in your tummy has just been eaten.

[rondata II]

Originally posted by richmonds-t



http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet7.html


did some checking... what looked to be pineapple was found in the small intestine. I am still reading. :read:

It's been awhile but it HAD to be eaten after the party because the bowl was ini the sink and the contents of what was in the bowl was still in her stomache (maybe partially intestines) but the bowl was THERE. If she ate it before the party, there would have been more food on top of it FROM The party :D

[bandit's mom]

Originally posted by Nancy#1Fan


No, there was a bowl found in the kitchen, and guess whose finger prints were on it? PATSY's

OK, it was her kitchen. Whose fingerprints would you expect
to find?

[bandit's mom]

[
As a side note, it seems highly unlikely to me that a stranger would enter, write a ransom note, and then batter, molest, and kill Jon Benet right under her own roof with her parents in the home. Highly unlikely. Not impossible though. [/B][/QUOTE]

That sums it up nicely for me as well. As I said, I'm not
convinced of their guilt, but neither and I convinced of
their innocence. The note bothers me most. Why wouldn't
a kidnapper write the note before they arrived at the house?
If there had been no note, in my mind, it would have
made the Ramsey's look less guilty.

[rondata II]

Originally posted by bandit's mom


OK, it was her kitchen. Whose fingerprints would you expect
to find?

Well since patsy denied giving her pinapple and it was still in her GUT it had to be someone who gave it to her after everyone went to sleep.. like say.. an INTRUDER??

[Jeannie]

Does anyone else think that since Patsy Ramsey died of ovorian cancer.....she may killed her daugther....she found out @ the cancer in 1993....her daugthers' death eas in 1996....3 years after ...... I know a very simulair case.....
Jeannie

[Jeannie]

I always felt Patsy Ramsey killed her daugther...Now I really beleive it!!!!
Jeannie

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


What was Baden talking about when he said a Federal Judge had ruled the Ramseys innocent?

TIA

Ocean

Federal Judge Says No Evidence Parents of JonBenet Ramsey Killed Her
An Atlanta federal judge has dismissed a civil lawuit against the parents of JonBenet Ramsey. In the 93 page opinion, the Judge "criticized police and the FBI for what she said was a media campaign aimed at making the family look guilty."

U.S. District Court Judge Julie Carnes in Atlanta said in the ruling this week there was no evidence showing the parents killed JonBenet and abundant evidence that an intruder killed the child.

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/002342.html

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by Nancy#1Fan


First, there is no proof that a stun gun was used. The medical examiner described them as abrasions, not burns. Only person's working on the Ramsey's behalf and those with a vested interest ever claimed a stun gun was used, by viewing photographs.

( It's called manufacturing reasonable doubt, the Ramsey's got what they paid for)

Secondly, it depends which version of Patsy's story you're a fan of, she has given several versions attempting to explain why it appeared that she never made it to bed the night her daughter was murdered.

This is not now and never was a DNA case. There is no official document anywhere that says the DNA from underwear & fingernails match and it came from the murderer.

? At least seven windows and a door in the Ramsey home were found open or unlocked after JonBenø}disappeared. The alarm was off and windows were accessible from the ground level, including three that opened into the basement.

? Evidence suggested that an intruder climbed through a basement window and walked through the room where JonBenø}was found.

? JonBenø…s body was bound with complicated rope slipknots and a garrote that the order described as "sophisticated bondage devices" by someone "with an expertise in bondage." No evidence suggests the Ramseys knew how to tie such knots.

? Black duct tape found on JonBenø…s mouth was never found in the Ramsey home, although evidence suggested "it came from a roll of tape that had been used before."

? Nothing in the Ramsey home matched dark animal hairs found on the duct tape and JonBenø…s hands.


? Newly made, unidentified shoeprints, including one with a HI-TEC brand mark, were found on the basement floor. None of the Ramseys' shoes matched those prints.
? A palm print on the wine-cellar door where JonBenø…s body was found does not match the Ramseys' palm prints and has never been identified.

? A baseball bat found outside the house with fibers consistent with fibers found on the carpet in the basement where JonBenø…s body was found did not belong to the Ramseys.

? Brown cotton fibers found on JonBenø…s body, the paintbrush used as a garrote, the duct tape and the ligature around her neck did not match anything in the Ramsey home.

? Male DNA found under JonBenø…s fingernails and in her underwear does not match that of any Ramsey and has not been identified yet.

? A pubic hair found on the blanket covering JonBenø…s body did not match that of any Ramsey.

? Injuries found on the child's body are consistent with the use of a stun gun, according to a forensic pathologist. The Ramseys swore they had never owned or operated a stun gun and none was found in their home. Carnes cited testimony by A. Louis "Lou" Smit, a homicide detective originally hired by the Boulder Police Department to investigate JonBenø…s death but who later began working for the Ramseys. Smit has said he believes JonBenø}was subdued by a stun gun.

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/002341.html

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by Nancy#1Fan


"On November 19, 2002, The Rocky Mountain News reported the unknown male DNA recovered from JonBenet's panties could have been left on the garment at the time the clothing was manufactured. "In exploring that theory, investigators obtained unopened 'control' samples of identical underwear manufactured in the plant in Southeast Asia, tested them and found human DNA in some of those new, unused panties."

Police now claim that the unidentified DNA found under both of JonBenet's fingernails has been contaminated and is of limited value."

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/feb_13.html

The judge is wrong and the "police" that messed up the case from the beginning are right??? :rolleyes:

? Male DNA found under JonBenø…s fingernails and in her underwear does not match that of any Ramsey and has not been identified yet.

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/002341.html

[elroh6]

I haven't read every single post here, and maybe this has already been discussed, but does anyone think the killer has died? I remember a while back that some sneakers were found in an apt. which matched something at the murder site. However iirc, he had since died. Can anyone clarify my muddled memory?

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by elroh6
I haven't read every single post here, and maybe this has already been discussed, but does anyone think the killer has died? I remember a while back that some sneakers were found in an apt. which matched something at the murder site. However iirc, he had since died. Can anyone clarify my muddled memory?

Is this what you are thinking about???

San Augustin adds that the high-tech boots, which they later took into possession, were originally ignored by investigators in Helgoth's home. But they were later discovered by Kenady and passed on to Gray and San Augustin.

San Augustin showed 48 Hours the underside of Helgoth's boot. "On the left is the high tech impression that was made in the area where JonBenet's body was found," says San Augustin. "There's no reason for Helgoth's boot to be in the Ramsey home where JonBenet's body was found."

The investigators turned the boots over to the Boulder police, who now claim their investigation showed they were the wrong size for a match. But they have yet to be turned over to the district attorney for further analysis.

The private detectives in their investigation also uncovered a number of Helgoth's personal video tapes that they say the sheriff's office ignored. San Augustin says they found one piece of video that included coverage of an unsolved murder in Colorado.

But what was even more disturbing were videotapes of Helgoth and one of his girlfriend's children. "The ex-girlfriend and he had a major argument over supposedly her coming home and finding the daughter in the bedroom, and he was in bed under covers and she was on the covers," says Gray. "They had a big fight and there were temporary restraining orders issued."

Most surprising of all, however, was the nature of Helgoth's suicide. Investigators initially said he died from a bullet to his head. But in fact, Gray says, the fatal shot was nowhere near his head.

"The gun was found on Michael's right and he's right-handed," says Gray. "The bullet hole is on Michael's left and it goes across the body from left to right."

"It became really odd to us that he would then take the gun and bring it around and then try and shoot himself," adds San Augustin. "It doesn't make sense why you would have somebody commit suicide in that manner."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

[sebastiana]

Originally posted by Former Juror


Because they are guilty, IMO.

My theory on the pineapple was that she ate it after waking, possibly because she wet the bed, and quietly went downstairs, without her parents knowledge. This may be a long shot but maybe she happened to be downstairs eating the pineapple alone when the intruder came upstairs, from the basement. He then subdued her with the stun gun and did his terrible deeds after carrying her downstairs. The only way to explain her blanket I think would be that she carried it down from her bedroom with her, possibly because the house was cold. :shrug: I think she woke up to change herself, maybe because she peed the bed, and didn't want to wake mom and dad. That might explain the panties that were too big for her. She liked the panties and had wanted some for herself. Why would her mom put panties six sizes too big on her? Sounds like something a little girl might do. All JMO.

[chatwuann]

Originally posted by Will05
Yes Jon Benet does know who her killer is. It's Patsy.

There is no conclusive proof that Patsy killed JonBenet.

[MissMarchHare1]

I say let the poor woman rest now. Somewhere on the other side her and Jon Benet have already met and that meeting is their own.

[chatwuann]

Originally posted by chatwuann
I am glad Patsy Ramseys suffering is over. I bet patsy has had that talk with JonBenet and now knows who killed her The slings and arrows won't hurt Patsy now. I feel sorry for John and Burke who still will be hurt by them.


:rose: For JonBenet & Patsy

I think you misunderstood what I was meaning. I meant to post that now that Patsy is with JonBenet again in heaven and she has had that talk with JonBenet now Patsy knows who killed JonBenet because JonBenet has told Patsy who killed her(JonBenet):rose:

[TexasBL218]

John Walsh on LKL just now says the Ramsey's are not guilty. He said the Boulder police were very sloppy.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Why ON EARTH would someone decide to stage a kidnapping by writing a letter with their own pen (which they put back in the penholder), use their own paper, leave first drafts in the waste paper basket, and then call police to the home? It makes no sense.

Why would John Ramsey find the body if they were staging a kidnapping? That makes the kidnapping appear staged.

Why would Patsy use her own paint brush to stage a murder which was meant to divert suspicion from her from having killed her daughter in an accident?

[cyber-yenta]

Originally posted by TexasBL218
John Walsh on LKL just now says the Ramsey's are not guilty. He said the Boulder police were very sloppy.


.....and I totally agree with him.


:rose: :rose:

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by TexasBL218
John Walsh on LKL just now says the Ramsey's are not guilty. He said the Boulder police were very sloppy.

They certainly were and they had nothing but tunnel vision too from day one.

IMO

Ocean

[becurious]

Originally posted by MissMarchHare1
I say let the poor woman rest now. Somewhere on the other side her and Jon Benet have already met and that meeting is their own.


Well said. She knows the truth now, so what she died not knowing is now revealed. IMO RIP :rose:

[chatwuann]

I agree with your post nomi21 and want to add that mothers do not take their bedwetting child and strangle him or her with a garotte and sexually assault them with part of the handle on a paintbrush or some other like object, leave the dead child in a filthy room in soiled clothes, then write a long ransom note and stage the crime scene to make LE think some evil intruder did it. This mother to do this would have to be mentally unbalanced or mentally ill and there is no evidence that Patsy was mentally unbalanced or mentally ill. Besides mothers who kill their child are more likely to tuck the dead child back in bed and pose he or she to make people think the child is asleep. Andrea Yeates laid her dead children on a bed after she drowned them. So if Patsy killed JonBenet why didn't she just tuck JonBenet back in bed looking like she was asleep and wait for John to find her in the morning.

No this crime was done by someone who hated John Ramsey and wanted to hurt him and the best way to do that was to kill JonBenet in John's home and let John find her dead lifeless body. Losing JonBenet or Burke was the worst thing that could have happened to John Ramsey. The note was just to make John and Patsy think she was still alive which heightened their grief when John found her dead.


AAJMO

[oldshirley]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


In the book I am reading two statements have really stuck in my mind. Paraphrasing - "Differences of opinion between the police and the DA's office are to be expected - but nothing like in this case" and "Reporters felt the Ramseys' silence was creating a poor impression of them. Why were they hiding?"

To me, these two statements say a lot. JMO

Maybe the Ramsey's stayed quiet so they wouldn't hinder the "investigation". :shrug:
Maybe that was the advice of their attorney. And remember, people like Mark Klaas have stated there is nothing out of the ordinary for people to retain an attorney for advice during a kidnapping of their loved one. I don't know what happened in Jon Benet's case. I honestly don't believe Patsy or John had anything to do with her death because I think in all this time one would have turned against the other--that was their little girl and I just don't believe Patsy would have taken that secret to her grave. I might be naive and in the end, it doesn't matter what any of us think, there'll be a judgment day and whoever took Jon Benet's life WILL answer for it.
jmo of course

[Former Juror]

Originally posted by richmonds-t
I have a couple of questions since I never got real involved in this case such as reading books,etc. The note said NOT to call the police but it does not look like they even thought about not calling them.
SNIP

Well, if Patsy wrote the note, she would know it was 'okay' to call the police.

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by richmonds-t
I have a couple of questions since I never got real involved in this case such as reading books,etc. The note said NOT to call the police but it does not look like they even thought about not calling them.


Did JonBenet really wet the bed or was the urine from after she died?

Wolf and Hoffman based most of their theory on the case from a book written by former Boulder police Detective Steve Thomas, who suggested Patsy Ramsey killed JonBenet in a bed-wetting incident, even though Carnes said there was never any evidence JonBenet wet her bed on the night in question.

http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail03.asp?ID=26

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by Former Juror


Well, if Patsy wrote the note, she would know it was 'okay' to call the police.

Investigators consulted with six handwriting experts, four hired by police and two hired by the Ramseys. All six excluded John Ramsey as the author of the note, and none identified Patsy Ramsey as the writer.

“Rather, the experts’ consensus was that she ‘probably did not’ write the ransom note,” Carnes wrote.

On a scale of one to five, with five eliminating someone from suspicion as the author of the ransom note, the experts placed Patsy Ramsey at 4.5 to 4.0, Carnes wrote.

Wolf and Hoffman, however, hired their own handwriting experts, Gideon Epstein and Cina Wong, who said they were “100 percent certain” Mrs. Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

“In contrast to the experts relied upon by defendants and by the Boulder Police Department, however, neither of these experts have ever seen or examined the original ransom note,” Carnes wrote. “In fact, Mr. Epstein and Ms. Wong do not know what ‘generation’ copy of the ransom note they examined.”

Carnes points out that other people under suspicion other than Patsy Ramsey were not eliminated as possible authors of the ransom note, including Wolf himself.

http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail03.asp?ID=26

[luvnaz]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin
I would have called the police too. Also, I've heard comments about Patsy having on her make-up that morning. As much make-up as she wore if she didn't take it off the night before, I don't doubt that she had on make-up. No big deal. IMO

Patsy stated that she had put her makeup on before coming downstairs for the first time that morning while John was showering and then finding the ransom letter and going back upstairs, dressing in her clothes from the night before in a hurry and getting John. That does sound believable.

The press, the cops, the whole media circus surrounding this case was a nightmare on top of a nightmare for this family! Innuendo, lies, mistakes in reporting that people take as truth because the media isn't always fair in getting retractions from these lies out to the public so the lies are never refuted.

I'd hire a bunch of lawyers too. As much as we know the cops screwed up and how badly the media lied about many "facts" who wouldn't?

The evidence of an intruder wasn't very well reported...the evidence excluding the parents wasn't very well reported...sad.

[MissOtisRegrets]

I believe I heard Patsy say on TV that, when she had taken off her clothes the night before, she had just thrown them over the back of a chair in the bedroom. Then, when she needed to dress quickly, she just grabbed them and put them back on. Because they were right there.

[luvnaz]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
I believe I heard Patsy say on TV that, when she had taken off her clothes the night before, she had just thrown them over the back of a chair in the bedroom. Then, when she needed to dress quickly, she just grabbed them and put them back on. Because they were right there.

Right that is what she said. I find that believable. But a lot of people believe that since she had the same clothes on that she wore the night before that she never took them off or went to sleep that night. That she was busy murdering her daughter with a garrote with complicated knots and materials not found in her home and of course writing a ransom letter....no way...IMO

[canUCme?]

Originally posted by luvnaz


Patsy stated that she had put her makeup on before coming downstairs for the first time that morning while John was showering and then finding the ransom letter and going back upstairs, dressing in her clothes from the night before in a hurry and getting John. That does sound believable.

The press, the cops, the whole media circus surrounding this case was a nightmare on top of a nightmare for this family! Innuendo, lies, mistakes in reporting that people take as truth because the media isn't always fair in getting retractions from these lies out to the public so the lies are never refuted.

I'd hire a bunch of lawyers too. As much as we know the cops screwed up and how badly the media lied about many "facts" who wouldn't?

The evidence of an intruder wasn't very well reported...the evidence excluding the parents wasn't very well reported...sad.

I agree with everything you posted here. The police bungled this case from the get-go and used the Ramsey's to cover up their mess.
I felt so sorry for Patsy.....they chewed her up and spit her out.
"C"

[Bush4Prez]

Originally posted by luvnaz


Patsy stated that she had put her makeup on before coming downstairs for the first time that morning while John was showering and then finding the ransom letter and going back upstairs, dressing in her clothes from the night before in a hurry and getting John. That does sound believable.

The press, the cops, the whole media circus surrounding this case was a nightmare on top of a nightmare for this family! Innuendo, lies, mistakes in reporting that people take as truth because the media isn't always fair in getting retractions from these lies out to the public so the lies are never refuted.

I'd hire a bunch of lawyers too. As much as we know the cops screwed up and how badly the media lied about many "facts" who wouldn't?

The evidence of an intruder wasn't very well reported...the evidence excluding the parents wasn't very well reported...sad.

I totally agree with you. The media continued to stir the pot and stir the pot.

Actually, I'm kind of happy that Patsy is at peace now and holding her little girl in her arms. That poor lady suffered enough.

[Rocky]

Originally posted by rondata II


It's been awhile but it HAD to be eaten after the party because the bowl was ini the sink and the contents of what was in the bowl was still in her stomache (maybe partially intestines) but the bowl was THERE. If she ate it before the party, there would have been more food on top of it FROM The party :D


This tends to add another list of items to the
"hard to believe" list.

We are to believe that an intruder enters, finds a pad and paper, writes a detailed ransom note, returns the pen to its holder, gets Jon Benet, feeds her pineapple, places the dish in the sink, takes Jon Benet downstairs, batters her, assaults her, kills her, without anyone hearing or seeing anything.

It's a difficult stretch, at best. Very difficult. Not impossible, but the police dept should never have let the Ramsey "status" alter the way they investigate a potential crime.

[luvnaz]

Originally posted by Rocky



This tends to add another list of items to the
"hard to believe" list.

We are to believe that an intruder enters, finds a pad and paper, writes a detailed ransom note, returns the pen to its holder, gets Jon Benet, feeds her pineapple, places the dish in the sink, takes Jon Benet downstairs, batters her, assaults her, kills her, without anyone hearing or seeing anything.

It's a difficult stretch, at best. Very difficult. Not impossible, but the police dept should never have let the Ramsey "status" alter the way they investigate a potential crime.

Freaks do a lot of freaky things.

What if a perp. entered an occupied home through a bedroom window where three or four teens were having a slumber party and takes one of them out the window...then he is seen nearby by the cops with his car having mechanical problems and the cops are aware that a girl has been abducted and they don't question him at all....Polly Klass was probably in that car and still alive....but who would think a man would have the guts to kidnap a child in that manner with so much risk.

In other words I don't think we can predict what a perp. is capable of! Ever! There are many other cases where there are unbelievable circumstances involved.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by luvnaz


Freaks do a lot of freaky things.

What if a perp. entered an occupied home through a bedroom window where three or four teens were having a slumber party and takes one of them out the window...then he is seen nearby by the cops with his car having mechanical problems and the cops are aware that a girl has been abducted and they don't question him at all....Polly Klass was probably in that car and still alive....but who would think a man would have the guts to kidnap a child in that manner with so much risk.

In other words I don't think we can predict what a perp. is capable of! Ever! There are many other cases where there are unbelievable circumstances involved.

Who would expect a valet parking attendant to have a copy of a woman's apartment key made, enter the apartment, set up video camera equipment focused on the woman's bed, and then live under that bed for two days undetected by either the woman or her boyfriend?

[theresak1978]

Originally posted by P Jammas
ovarian cancer
Now she can meet her maker......and answer to him.....

[luvnaz]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Who would expect a valet parking attendant to have a copy of a woman's apartment key made, enter the apartment, set up video camera equipment focused on the woman's bed, and then live under that bed for two days undetected by either the woman or her boyfriend?

Exactly...

[luvnaz]

I agree!!! If you believe the media spin and all the lies and untruths then you can't solve the crime.

There wasn't snow all around the house on the outside. that was proved to be false...

Handwriting experts excluded Patsy from writing the letter.

Patsy put on her makeup before going down stairs that morning. When she discovered the note she ran upstairs to alert John who was showering and then she threw on her clothes from the night before which were at hand.

No evidence of bed wetting that night/morning.

HUGE house...plenty of space and opportunity for an intruder...many windows and doors unlocked and the security system unarmed.


The only fact you have correct is that the police botched the case from the beginning....they still are.

[Rocky]

Originally posted by luvnaz


Freaks do a lot of freaky things.

What if a perp. entered an occupied home through a bedroom window where three or four teens were having a slumber party and takes one of them out the window...then he is seen nearby by the cops with his car having mechanical problems and the cops are aware that a girl has been abducted and they don't question him at all....Polly Klass was probably in that car and still alive....but who would think a man would have the guts to kidnap a child in that manner with so much risk.

In other words I don't think we can predict what a perp. is capable of! Ever! There are many other cases where there are unbelievable circumstances involved.


No we can't, however the police did that little girl a great disservice by treating her parents as celebrities instead of citizens.

IF IF IF the parents are responsible for her death, the ability to prove that was lost in their actions in the first two hours.

[caphill]

How does one explain away the DNA found on the body and the panties that was not Patsy's or any family member?

[Rocky]

Originally posted by Tracian




I have to admit, I thought then as I do now that the Ramseys at the very least knew more then they told police.

The main nagging question for me is this:

Intruders break into the house, take JonBenet from her bed, she is killed, so these intruders that are not sure just when someone may come downstairs for a drink of water or whatever, take the time to write a three page ransom note--and then, take the time to find a place to hide the child in the house.

IMO, the fact that JonBenet's body was found in the house...speaks very loudly of her parents involvement; if the intruders wanted a ransom, they would have taken the body of the child with them rather than risk not getting payment.

This is strictly my opinion


BB

But before they take her downstairs, they feed her pineapple?

Puzzling indeed

[Rocky]

Originally posted by Tracian


Hiya Rocky!!! nice posting with you again.

The pineapple thing is also very bothersome. Pasty claimed that JonBenet ate crab at a party....but IIRC no crab was found only the pineapple....



JMHO

BB

Hi there Tracian!!! Good to see you as well.

The crab and pineapple issues bother me alot.

Also the fact that a three page ransom note using paper and pen from the home was left. If it was pre-meditated, the ransom note would have been written before entry. If ransom was the issue, the child would have been removed from the home.

It's difficult to fathom someone writing a three page novel with supplies from the home and then putting the supplies back.

I think there would have been a very different outcome if the police had followed procedure.

[cocoashse]

Originally posted by hohum


It's funny that you mention this because in the last few days I have read quite a number of the websites about this case and there were all sorts of suspects never fully investigated including the wearer of the shoes you have mentioned. Also many who were involved in the case have made mention of the fact that the murderer might be dead which I thought was odd. Do they know something they aren't telling? This case is fascinating and it is unbelievable that it was never solved, in light of the fact there is no perfect crime. Did anyone read Lou Smit's book or watch the special program he did for TV on this case? He investigated the case independently for no money.

I always thought one of the parents wrote the note or both.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0004/14/lkl.00.html

[athy]

what if the intruder was there while they were gone and wrote the note before they even got home? the intruder could have been hiding in the basement....waiting for the right time.

Jon Benet could have woken up after the parents went to bed and got herself some pineapple to eat and just after that was when the intruder decided to make their move.

[Rocky]

Originally posted by Tracian




I agree. I think that John Ramsey even refused to let the police search downstairs were JonBenet was found? Am I remembering that right?

TIA

BB

I can certainly see why a police dept would be lead astray by a ransom note. One would assume the child was gone from the home.

However, the police needed to be calling the shots; not John Ramsey. They should have seperated the last three people that saw her alive and done a search of the home and/or garage and property.

If the police would have found the body, a proper investigation could have taken place. The police were intimidated by the Ramseys money and did not follow procedure.

[Rocky]

Originally posted by athy
what if the intruder was there while they were gone and wrote the note before they even got home? the intruder could have been hiding in the basement....waiting for the right time.

Jon Benet could have woken up after the parents went to bed and got herself some pineapple to eat and just after that was when the intruder decided to make their move.

Very possible. Good thoughts.

Why the ransom note when the child was left there?

[Lobsters]

There was a practice note that was further back in the note pad.

It started Dear Mr. and Mrs...(or something close to that...) and then stopped.


As for the pineapple.....Patsy was insistant, if I recall correctly, in one of her interviews that NO ONE had eaten pineapple in the house that night. And that Jon Benet would not have gotten up to get any.


The bowl of pineapple was found on the counter (the main bowl of it...) and that bowl only had Patsy's fingerprints on it.

[Rocky]

Originally posted by Tracian



Agreed good ideas.

another question though:

Wasn't there a crumpled ransom note in the trash as well?


TIA

BB


leading us to believe the note writer was in no big hurry and/or was quite a perfectionist

[Rocky]

Originally posted by Lobsters
There was a practice note that was further back in the note pad.

It started Dear Mr. and Mrs...(or something close to that...) and then stopped.


As for the pineapple.....Patsy was insistant, if I recall correctly, in one of her interviews that NO ONE had eaten pineapple in the house that night. And that Jon Benet would not have gotten up to get any.


The bowl of pineapple was found on the counter (the main bowl of it...) and that bowl only had Patsy's fingerprints on it.

We'll never know for sure, but that may have been her only slip up

[onemilehigh]

Originally posted by Tracian




I agree. I think that John Ramsey even refused to let the police search downstairs were JonBenet was found? Am I remembering that right?

TIA

BB IIRC, BPD asked John and the other man to check out the house, they found her and John picked her and the blanket she was in, I believe, up and took her to the living room on the main floor.

[onemilehigh]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin




According to the book I am reading, an officer searched downstairs around 10:00 a.m, but did not find anything. Around 1:00 p.m. an officer asked Mr. Ramsey (and two other people) to look around the house to see if they could find anything out of place. Mr. Ramsey and a friend went to the basement and that is when he found JonBenet. By 1:50 p.m. everyone was out of the house except one officer who stayed with Jon Benet's body. It took the police 6 hours to prepare and get approval of a search warrant. They re-entered the house at appx. 8:00 p.m. that night. (The only thing I've read so far that Mr. Ramsey would not do that day was go to the Holiday Inn to stay. He said they would stay with friends.) Wasn't it just a cursory search by BPD at 10? They didn't check the room she was found in at that time.

Also, weren't the handle and rope/twine that was used as the garrot from the house along with the paper and pen used for the Ransom note?

[Rocky]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin




From the book I'm reading - paraphrasing - The first officer on the scene after Patsy's call saw the door to the room where JonBenet was found saw that the door to the room was latched and for whatever reason at that time decided there was no need to open it. After JonBenet was found he questioned why he had decided not to open the door and was devastated by the thought that JonBenet might have been alive at that time.

Also, around 10:00 a.m. Mr. Ramsey went to the basement, but didn't look in that room either.


Yet another oddity. I wonder what type of latch it was

[Rocky]

Originally posted by Tracian




Life time showed the movie :)

It is an interesting theory, but IMO there are too many unanswered questions.

The investigator went in believing the Ramsey's were innocent because he could not believe that parents would or could murder their own child....sadly we know that is not the case.

JMHO

BB


An investigator who thinks parents couldn't murder their children. Hmmmm. Perhaps a different line of work for this person?

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by Tracian




http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523884.shtml

Lou Smit's investigation is what this book is based on.

At first, he thought it was the Ramseys who had killed their daughter.

But as Smit followed the evidence and questioned the Ramseys, he became convinced that the Boulder police were focusing on the wrong suspects.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523884.shtml

When I was hired I had no agenda one way or the other, my allegiance was to the case, not the Police Department nor John and Patsy Ramsey. My agenda has not changed. I only desire to be able to investigate the case and find the killer of JonBenet and will continue to do so as long as I am able. The chances of catching him working from the "outside looking in" are very slim, but I have a great "Partner" who I'm sure will lead the way. There is no doubt that I will be facing a great deal of opposition and ridicule in the future, because I intend to stand with this family and somehow help them through this and find the killer of their daughter. Perhaps others who believe this will also help.


http://www.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1998/28ramsle.html

[poplife]

CABELL (on camera): Mr. Ramsey did confirm that duct tape was found on his daughter's mouth. I asked him about a cord found around her neck, that was a report out of Colorado today, he said he didn't see, it could have been there but he was panicked at that point. He picked up the body, ran screaming upstairs, hoping she was still alive, of course she was not.

This is from the CNN interview aired on Jan. 1, 1997. This statement is contradicting every interview I have read of JR in regards to the physical state he found JBR when he discovered her. Very bizarre.

This site is an excellent source for the case: www.acandyrose.com

[poplife]

Patsy herself said she dressed before going downstairs. Tell me, what parent is going to get up one hour before having to leave for a plane trip, mess w/ some laundry that is insignificant to the trip, then head downstairs for some coffee that they won't have time to drink? Inconsistent statements gallore. She was wearing the red shirt to bed, oh no, I mean I changed her into a white one, oops, I forgot what my husband told me to say! My son was asleep, but he's on the 911 tape. The "kidnappers" threatened to kill her if we tell anyone, but we're going to have friends come over before the police even do and we'll disregard the time cut off for the phone call b/c...what? Oh, we'll also send Burke off even though these "kidnappers" say they are monitoring us. Riiiight.

[poplife]

And this article is in Crime Library? So, it's an editorial, right? I thought CL was based and prided on fact?

[protectkidz]

I am completely stunned that this article re: Patsy Ramsey was given the go-ahead by the editors at Crime Library.

I doubt that I have ever read any article here so lacking in facts and so slanted as this one.

Shame on Marilyn Bardsley and her editors for releasing this article - they better hope that information never becomes available that she was involved (and I believe she was) that will make them look like idiots.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by chatwuann
I am glad Patsy Ramseys suffering is over. I bet patsy has had that talk with JonBenet and now knows who killed her The slings and arrows won't hurt Patsy now. I feel sorry for John and Burke who still will be hurt by them.


Hmmm how magical!!! and maybe one of those AMAZING psychics from Haunting Evidence can link up with Patsy and then that person can tell the cops and bust that murdering creep. WHy didnt the psychics solve this case... Ive forgotten why they didnt get their little heads together and bust that monster?

[poplife]

Riddled with erroneous statements.

[poplife]

It's an editorial with erroneous statements.

[Broncgal]

On a recent morning there was, for at least a moment, a calm surrounding JonBenét Ramsey.

A mossy-barked dogwood tree spreading over the little girl's gravesite dripped with the morning rain. In the distance, a church bell chimed out the hour.

This corner of quiet - St. James Episcopal Cemetery - is JonBenét's final resting place. On Thursday, her mother, Patsy Ramsey, will be buried here as well, next to her daughter.

Members of the church that gives the cemetery its name are bracing for the quiet to end. They are expecting hordes of media and legions of looky-loos to trample the grounds and clog the narrow pathways. And they worry that the dignity of the person and the place could be trampled too. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_3987556

[protectkidz]

first rule of moderating a forum is to remain impartial.

[protectkidz]

Will is absolutely correct in everything he said.

The note was found later in the morning on the back staircase - the staircase the family used. It hadn't been there when people had been up and down the staircase earlier in the morning.

The notepad was found on the counter - the counter that Patsy and her friends had cleaned with CLEANER that morning.

The Ramsey's closest friends, the gentleman that was with John when he found JonBenet's body - which was NOT there when they did the search earlier in the morning - very quickly backed away from the Ramseys, and went public with the inconsistencies that he felt were important to the investigation.

The police handled the scene completely wrong. Instead of removing everyone from the crime scene, they let everyone and their mother hang out, and let Mom and Dad completely pollute the crime scene and the body.

The paint brush that was used to simulate rape to JonBenet's body was Patsy Ramsey's paintbrush. It was usually kept in a craft box. An intruder had many other options available to him/her to simulate rape (the basement was filled with stuff), other than rooting around looking for a tool.

The window had been broken for a very long time - I believe since they had purchased the house. There was no indication that anyone had entered from the window - in fact, there was a spiderweb intact across this window - no way a spider could've or would've (in the dead of winter in Boulder) created a new web between someone entering and investigators finding the broken window. The suitcases directly below the window were covered with dust and had not been disturbed.

JonBenet had bruises on her body - these were made public thru many media outlets, National Enquirer amongst them - but bonafide. She was bruised in ways that a child would not have been during normal play.

The marks on her shoulder blade were NEVER proved to be from a taser gun. They could have very easily been made from rug burns, or from being dragged across a concrete floor.

Everything about the body points to an accidental death, with someone trying to cover it up. No one is going to break into the house, snag her from her bed, PRETEND to rape her with a paintbrush, and beat her to death with one blow.

And it wasn't her brother, whom the 911 operator could hear in the background (Patsy speaking sharply to him, while denying he was there).

[Amy]

Too bad there isn't some way to keep it a private affair.

[luvnaz]

Originally posted by Will05
Luvnaz: You're wrong. Handwriting experts NEVER excluded Patsy from writing that letter. Get your facts straight.

Caphil: Read the link below & I believe you will waver.:D


http://crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm

PS-Both of you read it.


I read it. Nowhere does it say she wrote that letter. All the "experts" have never conclusively said "she wrote it".

I'm still not convinced that the parents killed her. If it was an accidental skull fracture, wouldn't Patsy and John react similarly to the time when Burke accidentally hit her with the golf club? Staging an elaborate sexually sadistic murder scene seems a bizarre way to react to an accident.

Also I am aware that one of JonBenet's dance classmates was molested not too long after.

There is also unidentified forensic evidence...pubic hair, mucus...unlocked doors and windows...


And a ton of misinformation, lies, and blundering police!

[luvnaz]

http://crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-main.htm



Moreover, the ransom note was likely written by Patsy, according to Vassar professor and linguistic expert Don Foster (the author of Author Unknown , who unmasked Joe Klein as the author of Primary Colors), David Liebman, former president of the National Association of Document Examiners, and Gideon Epstein, director of the forensics unit of the documents lab at the Immigration and Naturalization Service until he retired in 2000.

"What is your degree of certainty as you sit here today," Ramsey attorney Wood asked Epstein in a deposition last year, "that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?"

"I am absolutely certain she wrote the note," Epstein replied.

"Is that 60 percent certainty?" Wood asked.

"No, that's 100 percent certainty."

Wood got Epstein to concede that he had reached that conclusion without having access to the original of the note. Vassar professor Foster had told Patsy Ramsey before having access to the note that he believed she didn't write it. The reliability of handwriting and linguistic text analysis is much disputed. And other experts have said they can't conclude Patsy wrote the note. In fact, D.A. Hunter testified in a 2001 deposition taken by Ramsey attorney Wood that the experts he had obtained analysis from concluded, by his estimate, that the odds Patsy wrote the note were 4.5 on a scale of 1 to 5, with 5 being that she didn't.
with 5 being that she didn't.

[MooMoo]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin


I totally agree. Patsy loved JonBenet. So did John. I think it was a botched investigation from the beginning.

Lou Smit quickly believed the focus on the parents was headed in the wrong direction for an investigation. Therefore the investigatoin went nowhere.
Prayers for the family, Patsy and JonBenet.:rose:

[poplife]

Have you checked out the handwriting samples?
http://blabbieville.tripod.com/index.

I tried as recently as yesterday to write in my left hand the ransom note (I am a righty) and it was a joke, my paper looked like chicken scratch. Patsy's looks nearly exact, I'm no expert, but I don't see how anyone can deny that. Try it yourself.

My theory is that Patsy believed that JB was dead, not just a bump to the head. She would have died from her head injury, but the ligature is actually what killed her. Too bad she didn't call for help.

[luvnaz]

Originally posted by poplife
Have you checked out the handwriting samples?
http://blabbieville.tripod.com/index.

I tried as recently as yesterday to write in my left hand the ransom note (I am a righty) and it was a joke, my paper looked like chicken scratch. Patsy's looks nearly exact, I'm no expert, but I don't see how anyone can deny that. Try it yourself.

My theory is that Patsy believed that JB was dead, not just a bump to the head. She would have died from her head injury, but the ligature is actually what killed her. Too bad she didn't call for help.


So what is your theory?

[poplife]

Luvnaz, I agree w/ Steve Thomas' theory from his book, I cannot quote the entire passage here, I will quote the first paragraph and you can find the rest at this link: (aprox 1/5 down the page)
http://crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm

"In my hypothesis, an approaching fortieth birthday, the busy holiday season, an exhausting Christmas Day, a couple of glasses of wine, and an argument with JonBenét had left Patsy frazzled. Her beautiful daughter, whom she frequently dressed almost as a twin, had rebelled against wearing the same outfit as her mother [to the Whites' Christmas Day party].

[luvnaz]

Originally posted by poplife
Luvnaz, I agree w/ Steve Thomas' theory from his book, I cannot quote the entire passage here, I will quote the first paragraph and you can find the rest at this link: (aprox 1/5 down the page)
http://crimemagazine.com/jonbenet.htm

"In my hypothesis, an approaching fortieth birthday, the busy holiday season, an exhausting Christmas Day, a couple of glasses of wine, and an argument with JonBenét had left Patsy frazzled. Her beautiful daughter, whom she frequently dressed almost as a twin, had rebelled against wearing the same outfit as her mother [to the Whites' Christmas Day party].

plausable....I'm on the fence....I lean toward an intruder really...but parents are likely too....BUT...a lot of things don't add up and I'm not convinced it was them...

I also think Burke had a history of swinging objects and JB being nearby...ie the golf club when she was 3...and he could have been fooling around and hit her with the bat and then Patsy and John are covering for HIM...stupid when it would have been an accident...

My brother was on a regular basis trying his best to harass, pick on, beat up, push around, kick (Karate black belt), shot me with BB's and many other fun activities while growing up...he was very rough and 4 years older...he absolutely adored my sister tho' and never hurt her...and although it was all in good fun most of the time to pick on me, he could have seriously hurt or killed me unintentionally!

[cocoashse]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0004/14/lkl.00.html


This talks about the hand writing and according to Smit she did not pass the test, only the experts provided by their side.

[cocoashse]

Originally posted by poplife
And this article is in Crime Library? So, it's an editorial, right? I thought CL was based and prided on fact?



http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html


I thought they did a good job myself in the article.

[cocoashse]

Originally posted by cocoashse
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0004/14/lkl.00.html


This talks about the hand writing and according to Smit she did not pass the test, only the experts provided by their side.


Oops, I mean't Thomas. Smit believes an intruder did it.

[poplife]

There is truly something for everyone in this case. For every link, interview, expert, opinion, forensic, blah, blah, there will be another to refute it. For me, when I balance it all out, I lean toward the Ramseys. I think the note is the biggest factor, but not the only. No matter what you believe regarding Ramsey or intruder, y ou can't deny that the crime scene was staged. I can't think of any reason for an intruder to do that.

Anatomy of a Cold Case is about JonBenet tonight at 10pm. Doubt they'll have anything new. Arndt is now writing a book w/ her revelations. :rolleyes:

[cocoashse]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312253265?v=glance


This is the one by Thomas who believed the Ramseys were responsible and he was a lead detective on the case.

[breezy1234]

Patsy Ramsey will be laid to rest this week next to her daughter, JonBenet, bringing down the final curtain on one of the nastiest media spectacles in American history. From the day in 1996 that her daughter was discovered murdered until her death on June 25, Patsy Ramsey suffered. Some of that suffering could not have been avoided: despite having the best treatment available, ovarian cancer finally took her life. But her worst suffering was at the hands of an incompetent local government, an unbelievably sadistic media campaign and an audience that reveled in her torment.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0606/2601_patsy_ramsey_dead.html

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by cocoashse
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312253265?v=glance


This is the one by Thomas who believed the Ramseys were responsible and he was a lead detective on the case.

Judge Praises Lou Smit, Criticizes Steve Thomas
In dismissing a defamation suit against the parents of JonBenet Ramsey, Atlanta Federal Judge Julie Carnes praised the efforts and experience of investigator Lou Smit while expressing sharp criticism for the work and experience of Boulder police detective Steve Thomas.

Carnes reserved special criticism for Thomas, the former Boulder detective upon whose theories the Wolf complaint was based. "Whereas Detective Smit's summary testimony concerning the investigation is based on evidence, Detective Thomas' theories appear to lack substantial evidentiary support," she wrote. "Indeed, while Detective Smit is an experienced and respected homicide detective, Detective Thomas had no investigative experience concerning homicide cases prior to this case. In short, the plaintiff's evidence that the [Ramseys] killed their daughter and covered up their crime is based on little more than the fact that defendants were present in the house during the murder," Carnes wrote.
Thomas wrote a book claiming the Ramseys were guilty, was sued for libel and settled the case for an undisclosed sum. Lou Smit, hired as a special investigator in the case, resigned because the police investigation was so biased against the Ramseys.

http://www.talkleft.com/new_archives/002340.html

[breezy1234]

Originally posted by cocoashse
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312253265?v=glance


This is the one by Thomas who believed the Ramseys were responsible and he was a lead detective on the case.

humm, why did Steve Thomas settle if he was so sure he was right????

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9906E5D91038F932A15750C0A9649C8B 63&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fR%2f Ramsey%2c%20John

Ramsey Lawsuit Is Settled


Published: March 21, 2002
The authors of a book that accused John and Patsy Ramsey of killing their daughter JonBenet have settled an $80 million libel suit by the couple.

A lawyer for the Ramseys would not say how the authors -- Steve Thomas, a former police detective, and Don Davis -- and their publisher, St. Martin's Press, would divide the settlement, whose sum was not revealed.

The Ramseys filed the suit in March 2001 over accusations in the book ''JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation'' and in television interviews promoting it.

[breezy1234]

The former police detective who wrote a book accusing John and Patsy Ramsey of killing their daughter has agreed to pay them an undisclosed amount of money to settle a libel lawsuit.

Ex-detective Steve Thomas, his co-author, Don Davis, and publisher St. Martin’s Press are participating in the settlement, Ramsey attorney L. Lin Wood said. He would not say how the three will divide the payment.

“The settlement agreement is a repudiation of Steve Thomas’ theory,” Wood said Wednesday. “I think it clearly is a vindication of the Ramseys ."

http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail02.asp?ID=23

[MissOtisRegrets]

CTV show on the Ramsey case tonight at 10 Eastern. Preview on this afternoon's Crier Live.

:seeya:

MissO

[csiwannabe]

How very sad! I didn't even know that Patsy Ramsey had passed. I wish that people would allow others to greive without interferring. That poor family!

[luvnaz]

Yes, the whole case is full of twists and turns. I don't think it will ever be solved with what is known now. Not unless someone real close to the family or themselves speaks out and I do not think they ever will.

I agree that the ransom letter is one of the more damning pieces leaning toward Patsy and John, BUT it has never been 100% conclusively said that she wrote it. Otherwise she would be indited I think. Some fiber evidence points to her as well. But those keystone cops couldn't handle it and it was botched from the minute they walked in the door.

Will watch the CTV program tonight! Folks have to be careful what they write or say..the Ramsey's have several libel suits pending and have just won another involving Thomas' book...

[poplife]

Nice to have a civil conversation even though we are swayed to different sides. :beer:

The thing about handwriting analysis, is that it's like reading tea leaves, there is no one that can conclusively say 100% certain. You get a leading analyst saying he's certain and then someone else that also leading in the field saying the opposite. It's maddening. But I still, cannot look at her sample and doubt that she wrote it. Then she also changed her style of writing after the murder. :shrug: Have you tried your left (or right) hand yet?

[weepy willa]

It's a wonder PR,did'nt trip on that rambling ransom note and fall down the stairs and broke her neck. That note/ book was like War & Peace!! What a respectful kidnapper to address her father as Mr.Ramsey. The kidnapper asked for a pitiful ( for the Ramsey's) $118,000 instead of millions? What kidnapper leaves the object of their crime in the house?( hey ,Stupid,YOU FORGOT SOMETHING) Did The rambling note , say where the money was to be dropped off. Did'nt they know the Ramsey's would call the police,who would probably search the house ,and find the body.Why would they ask for a ransom for a girl that was dead and in her own house?? Was'nt JB covered up with a blanket the maid said was in the dryer,how could the kidnapper know that? She also said the basement was like a maze and she had to scream to her husband to follow her voice to lead him to where she was,in the basement. How and why would the kidnapper never being in that house know his way around to the obscure little storage room JB,was found in? Aneighbor said Mr.Ramsey ,asked could he keep JB's x-mas present ,a bike in his cellar,why did'nt he keep it in his own cellar? I very much doubt if JB would explore her spooky basement .was there a chance she might see her present before x-mas ? No broken windows,no busted locks,but someboby broke in and killed poor little jon Benet Ramsey.:rose: for JBR, forever six years old.

[onemilehigh]

Special Section on JonBenet (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_907317,00.html) From the Rocky Mountian News.

Front page has a picture of Burke, guess it has been close to 10 years.

[protectkidz]

VERY nice to see a civil discussion!

;)

[MissOtisRegrets]

They will be discussing the Ramsey case tomorrow night (Friday) on LKL.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by poplife


Anatomy of a Cold Case is about JonBenet tonight at 10pm. Doubt they'll have anything new. Arndt is now writing a book w/ her revelations. :rolleyes:
I thought the show was pretty darn good... balanced for sure, and some new photos too.

[luvnaz]

I know I can't write well with my left hand...a waste of paper!

Something that stood out in the show last night was that they said her skull fracture was such a hard blow that it most certainly was inflicted by a man....not Patsy or Burke....so my theory about Burke hitting her accidental doesn't pan out. Also the man said that the blow was consistent with the flashlight found on the kitchen counter. That isn't, to me, isn't consistent with a parent hitting their child in a rage accidently...

Now it seems like over kill...the skull fracture which was a fatal wound, the garrote, the stun gun applied twice.

[MooMoo]

I have always thought the Santa or his wife had something to do with the death of JonBenet. Don't know why, just had a gut feeling. IMOO

[caphill]

Originally posted by poplife
There is truly something for everyone in this case. For every link, interview, expert, opinion, forensic, blah, blah, there will be another to refute it. For me, when I balance it all out, I lean toward the Ramseys. I think the note is the biggest factor, but not the only. No matter what you believe regarding Ramsey or intruder, y ou can't deny that the crime scene was staged. I can't think of any reason for an intruder to do that.

Anatomy of a Cold Case is about JonBenet tonight at 10pm. Doubt they'll have anything new. Arndt is now writing a book w/ her revelations. :rolleyes:

Wonder how that DNA of an unknown person was staged on the body and panties of Jonbenet?

Wonder how the boot footprints were staged?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin
MissO - Did you watch the CTV program last night? Was there anything that stood out in your mind?

Hi rosy! :seeya:

1. The pineapple is so odd. I think it was on Crier yesterday that it was said that it would have taken 4 1/2 to 5 hours to reach her small intestine. Would an intruder have fed her and then spent that amount of time with her before he killed her? Maybe he did. Maybe he spent part of this time writing the letter. Surely he didn't leave her alive. The fiber evidence in her bed suggests she was stun gunned and tied there. Would she later be trusted to have the tape removed from her mouth in order to eat? Did he later feed her by hand, while she was tied, while he fed himself from the bowl? Sexual fantasy. Or was she tied later? Did she go willingly? Was this the visit from Santa she was expecting?

2. I thought that DNA was found under JonBenet's fingernails and that that was the best evidence. Neither show yesterday mentioned it. Is it true?

3. I think it was on Crier that it was mentioned that the paint brush had been broken into 1/3's. One of the three pieces was returned to the paint box which was with the body. The second was the garrotte. The third was not found and assumed to have been removed from the scene along with the duct tape and cord. Was this the part of the paint brush she was penetrated with? Did he take it away to save as a trophy?

4. The cord and duct tape were not able to be linked to Ramseys and a lot of time was spent trying to trace purchases.

5. That letter is so odd. It wasn't on either show yesterday, but it has been said before that several false starts were left in the waste paper basket. One began, "Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey". The final letter just says, "Mr. Ramsey". I think there is a lot of hatred for John Ramsey and the letter is almost a "this one's for you, John". "Don't try to grow a brain, John." Did John say this to the killer at one time and did it still hurt? The letter is almost written as a joke.

6. The blow to the head, fracturing the skull from one end to the other could not have been delivered by a woman or child. (Again, I don't remember which show this was said on.) FBI said they had no case on file of a parent inflicting this type of violence (or garrotte) on their own child.

7. Please don't flame me for this. It is just my reaction. The 911 call. Patsy sounds like a woman, who has just found that her child is missing and she is terrified. Her emotion is driving her voice. (Unlike the Menendez brothers or Robert Blake whose distress is on top of their voice in the 911 calls.)

MOO



What stood out for you, rosy?

[hpe2bme_chick]

It's been ten years, but remember "Mr. Santa," (hope that was his name) who was an old guy and spent a great deal of time with the family? And how he and his wife split the country shortly after Jon Benet was killed?

He seemed to like her "too much," and the parents trusted him. If anyone remembers this, please write back. He knew the house, the family, and perhaps John's business dealings.

I really don't want this to go to a cold case. I was really pretty young when Jon-Benet was killed, but it was terribly shocking, and yes, I did "blame" the parents.

I think their lives were ruined, the Bolder Police were idiots, and that someone close to the family did this. It was a horrible crime.

Looking forward to someone with info on "Mr. Santa" or whatever name he had (had to do with Xmas) and his seemingly welcome into the home, where he may well have taken a special "liking" to Jon-Benet and resented the parents, for some sick reason.

[Lobsters]

Originally posted by caphill


Wonder how that DNA of an unknown person was staged on the body and panties of Jonbenet?

Wonder how the boot footprints were staged?


Either way you look at it, intruder or parents, some things don't add up!


I think the most intriguing thing about the whole case...that doesn't add up either way.....

the pineapple bowl sitting at the table....plus now the addition of a glass with a tea bag in it.

Interesting.....

my guess. Those kids did in fact have a snack before they went to bed that night. Jon Benet had the pineapple and Burke drank the tea (fingerprints on the glass were found to be Burke's).

and for whatever reason...both Jon and Patsy didn't want that to be known....................

...

[Bush4Prez]

I know exactly who you are talking about. I felt the same way about him. He was a strange character. He has always been first on my list. Didn't Mr. Santa's wife write a screen play or something about murdering a little girl and some of the details in her play were similar to the JonBenet killing?

I can't remember his name, either.

[MooMoo]

Originally posted by hpe2bme_chick
It's been ten years, but remember "Mr. Santa," (hope that was his name) who was an old guy and spent a great deal of time with the family? And how he and his wife split the country shortly after Jon Benet was killed?

He seemed to like her "too much," and the parents trusted him. If anyone remembers this, please write back. He knew the house, the family, and perhaps John's business dealings.

I really don't want this to go to a cold case. I was really pretty young when Jon-Benet was killed, but it was terribly shocking, and yes, I did "blame" the parents.

I think their lives were ruined, the Bolder Police were idiots, and that someone close to the family did this. It was a horrible crime.

Looking forward to someone with info on "Mr. Santa" or whatever name he had (had to do with Xmas) and his seemingly welcome into the home, where he may well have taken a special "liking" to Jon-Benet and resented the parents, for some sick reason.

I have always thought the Santa did it. Gut feeling.
He said he moved because of health reasons. Just something inside of me has from the beginning thought he was the killer. It's all JMOO.

[MooMoo]

Originally posted by Bush4Prez
I know exactly who you are talking about. I felt the same way about him. He was a strange character. He has always been first on my list. Didn't Mr. Santa's wife write a screen play or something about murdering a little girl and some of the details in her play were similar to the JonBenet killing?

I can't remember his name, either.

Bill McReynolds and wife Janet

3 things:

1) Janet McReynolds wrote a award winning play in 1974 that centered on the sexual assault, torture, and murder of a girl whose body was found in a basement.

2) In 1974 the daughter and a friend were abducted in Longmonte, and the daughter wittnessed her friends, sexual assult, torture and murder, whose body was found in a basement. (Probably where she got the ideal to write the play)

3) 22 years to the day Jon Benet's murdered body was found in her basement.

Another reason why I think the Santa did it, or possibably his wife, Janet. IMOO

[weezer]

May Patsy Ramsey rest in peace. My thoughts and prayers are with her family.

[weezer]

Anyone watch this week's Court TV special? Very good.

[Lobsters]

From last night's show...

1. A bowl of pineapple with a spoon in it, and a drinking glass with a used tea bag were found on the dining room table. The bowl had Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints on it. The glass just had Burke's.
No DNA testing has ever been done on either to see if anything could be revealed.

2. Fibers consistent with the rope used to make the garrot were found in Jon Benet's bed.

3. The only place DNA was found was in Jon Benet's underwear. It was not blood or semen. It was just a few cells of someone else's DNA. Lab work done on it could only retrieve 10 out of 13 markers of the DNA. That is run through the CODIS system once a week. But no match to anyone in the family, friends, etc. has been found.

4. There was no mention of a 3rd piece of the paint brush. Just that one piece was used to make the garrot. And the other was in Patsy's paint tray.

5. The layout of the house was such that whomever the perp was certainly had to be familiar with layout of the house, due to the unusual floorplan, and placement of switches, doors, etc.

6. The blow to Jon Benet's head was forceful enough that there was SPECULATION that only a man could have done it. Werner Spitz looked at the autopsy photos and said that the blow was almost certainly caused by the light end of a large flashlight. A flashlight that fits that description was found in the Ramsey home. No prints, or any other evidence was found on it.

7. The pad of paper that the ransom note was written on was found in a waste paper basket in the hall at the end of the spiral staircase where the note was found. The pen was found in the kitchen.


As a side note to the discussion above about who searched the house. Fleet White also went into the room where Jon Benet's body was found. He actually unlatched the door and walked in. But did not go far enough to see her, and he couldn't find the light switch, so he left.

There was also LOTS of new photos in this program. Some that I had never seen before. I highly recommend catching it if you can.

[luvnaz]

Yes, The pineapple is a twist that seems out of place...maybe it is completely innocent and means nothing. Maybe it is the key to it all. Maybe the kids snuck downstairs and had the snack and then went to bed. Without the parents knowledge. No reason for Patsy to lie about it...so why would she? Maybe Burke had the pineapple and tea and then went to bed and then JB went and had a bite of his leftovers and Patsy didn't know about it. The glass and bowl and spoon were never tested for DNA so we don't know if she ate from that bowl and only Patsy and Burke's finger prints are on them. Maybe JB woke up and snuck downstairs and had a bite of Burke's leftover pineapple and the intruder came up behind her and hit her or stunned her and took her to the basement. The parents on the 4th floor wouldn't have heard a thing.

Another detail that caught my eye was that the tape and cord used on JB was not something they found more of in the house. They came from outside. This leads me to think that the killer came prepared and brought and used a stun gun, hit her on the head with an easily found object from the home, brought tape to silence and a rope to strangle. The rope and strangulation is interesting too because it is an elaborate bizarre way to subdue and kill. A fetish type thing like a bondage or fetish enjoying person would use. Hardly what a parent would use or even know. He brought the rope and tape and stun gun and found household objects to supplement them for his kill kit. He could have easily found a different type of wooden stick to use with the garrote from the house.

[MissOtisRegrets]

The JonBenet Ramsey case and the death this week of Patsy Ramsey will be discussed tonight on Larry King Live.

[MissMarchHare1]

let Patsy rest in peace.

[Babby~A]

Originally posted by MissMarchHare1
let Patsy rest in peace.

:rose:

[Alphafemale]

I have always though that the brother(Burke?) Killed Jonbenet...

too much for a mother to bare, she might have known and lived knowing that one child killed the other....

will we ever know the truth?


~~~Alphafemale~~~

[Former Juror]

IMO, Patsy wrote the amount $118,000 in the ransom note because that was John's Christmas bonus that year. I believe they were trying to divert attention toward the handful of people that would know that exact amount.

[SPYCEE3]

Originally posted by Former Juror
IMO, Patsy wrote the amount $118,000 in the ransom note because that was John's Christmas bonus that year. I believe they were trying to divert attention toward the handful of people that would know that exact amount.

And the reason for them "trying to divert attention" is...WHAT? :confused:

[Former Juror]

To put the focus of the investigation onto someone John works with rather than on he and Patsy.

John's Christmas bonus that year was $118,000 and some change. The ransom note demanded $118,000. Coincidence? Hardly. IMO, they chose that amount to put the focus of the investigation onto someone close to John, probably at work. Not to mention that a 'real' ransom note would have asked for a lot more money, given John Ramsey's income and net worth.

[SPYCEE3]

Originally posted by Former Juror
To put the focus of the investigation onto someone John works with rather than on he and Patsy.

John's Christmas bonus that year was $118,000 and some change. The ransom note demanded $118,000. Coincidence? Hardly. IMO, they chose that amount to put the focus of the investigation onto someone close to John, probably at work. Not to mention that a 'real' ransom note would have asked for a lot more money, given John Ramsey's income and net worth.

Oh oh...I see! You obviously believe the Ramseys were the despicable culprits that killed their young daughter. Fair enough! I totally disagree with you...I don't believe they had anything to do with it. :seeya:

[Former Juror]

Originally posted by SPYCEE3


Oh oh...I see! You obviously believe the Ramseys were the despicable culprits that killed their young daughter. Fair enough! I totally disagree with you...I don't believe they had anything to do with it. :seeya:

Yes, unfortunately, parents kill their children more often than I'd like to admit.

I understand that reasonable people can disagree on this case. But, yes, I absolutely, without ANY doubt, believe Patsy is guilty.

IMOOC

[MissOtisRegrets]

I just can't imagine that anyone would try to cover up a murder by writing a ransom note with their own pen and paper and, then, not make any attempt to disguise the fact. The same with the paint brush. The rest of which was placed back in the paint box and left within feet of the body. To me, it makes so little sense, it appears exculpatory. One removes one's belongings from a crime scene in order to cover up. One doesn't add them.

MOO

[GrrlPwer]

Originally posted by Former Juror
To put the focus of the investigation onto someone John works with rather than on he and Patsy.

John's Christmas bonus that year was $118,000 and some change. The ransom note demanded $118,000. Coincidence? Hardly. IMO, they chose that amount to put the focus of the investigation onto someone close to John, probably at work. Not to mention that a 'real' ransom note would have asked for a lot more money, given John Ramsey's income and net worth. I totally agree. how would some kidnapper or robber know EXACTLY how much John's bonus was. Thats just toooooo strange. :no:

[JAT]

Originally posted by CaliforniaGuy
In the first paragraph of the "ransom note" the word "business" is spelled with four s's: bussiness, and the word "possession" was spelled with three: possesion.

The Boulder Police Department mesed up big-time by not taking the Ramseys down to the Police Department, putting them in separate rooms, giving them pens and paper and dictating that paragraph to them for them to write down.

If one of them, and my money would have been on Patsy, had spelled those words as they were spelled in the note that would been enough to indiict and convict her.

But instead, they gave the note to the Associated Press and the note, with the misspellings pointed out, was in every paper in the country the next day.

The case should have been solved in one day. Instead, the case is in their cold case files. That is the only part of this case dougie harps on. Enjoying the 4th of July weekend dougie?:cool:

[socaldiva]

Originally posted by JAT
That is the only part of this case dougie harps on. Enjoying the 4th of July weekend dougie?:cool:

dougie moved to California? :confused:

[JAT]

Originally posted by socaldiva


dougie moved to California? :confused: No but has said in the past that is were he would love to be.;) I recall San Diego is his #1 pick for a place to live.

[cyber-yenta]

Originally posted by SPYCEE3


Oh oh...I see! You obviously believe the Ramseys were the despicable culprits that killed their young daughter. Fair enough! I totally disagree with you...I don't believe they had anything to do with it. :seeya:


I agree with you - the Ramsey's, none of them, had anything to do with this crime.

For JonBenet and her mom :rose:

Interesting info..............

What they have discovered is startling. Within a two-mile radius of where the Ramseys once lived, 38 of their neighbors are registered sex offenders. What these private detectives have also discovered is that in the months before JonBenet's murder, there were more than 100 burglaries in her neighborhood


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

[JAT]

Originally posted by CaliforniaGuy


San Diego is heaven on earth. I can well see why this Dougie, whoever he is, would want to live here. :lol: Yeah I bet.:rolleyes:

So much for layinlo!;)

[GrrlPwer]

I still wonder why did John go down to the basement with out LE. and why did he remove that duct tape from her mouth? i'm sorry but i just think some how they knew something :shrug:

[socaldiva]

Originally posted by JAT
*snip*

So much for layinlo!;)

layinlo in San Diego. It rhymes. :D

[JAT]

Originally posted by socaldiva


layinlo in San Diego. It rhymes. :D :D :beer:

[socaldiva]

Originally posted by GrrlPwer
I still wonder why did John go down to the basement with out LE. and why did he remove that duct tape from her mouth? i'm sorry but i just think some how they knew something :shrug:

As I recall, according to John, he was asked by LE to make a search of the house. So he took his friend & they started at the bottom, intending to work their way up.

[GrrlPwer]

Originally posted by cyber-yenta



I agree with you - the Ramsey's, none of them, had anything to do with this crime.

For JonBenet and her mom :rose:

Interesting info..............

What they have discovered is startling. Within a two-mile radius of where the Ramseys once lived, 38 of their neighbors are registered sex offenders. What these private detectives have also discovered is that in the months before JonBenet's murder, there were more than 100 burglaries in her neighborhood


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml and how many are in YOUR neighborhood? http://www.nationalalertregistry.com

[GrrlPwer]

Originally posted by socaldiva


As I recall, according to John, he was asked by LE to make a search of the house. So he took his friend & they started at the bottom, intending to work their way up. i thought that john searched the WHOLE house with the LE and then about an hour later he went downstairs by himself and found her :shrug:

[Babby~A]

Originally posted by JAT
No but has said in the past that is were he would love to be.;) I recall San Diego is his #1 pick for a place to live.

I remember that too. And Dougie loves California girls.;)

[candykisses]

Originally posted by cyber-yenta



I agree with you - the Ramsey's, none of them, had anything to do with this crime.

For JonBenet and her mom :rose:

Interesting info..............

What they have discovered is startling. Within a two-mile radius of where the Ramseys once lived, 38 of their neighbors are registered sex offenders. What these private detectives have also discovered is that in the months before JonBenet's murder, there were more than 100 burglaries in her neighborhood


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml

ITA Spycee and Cyber. Patsy loved that child dearly and if there is anything right about this, it's that she and Jon Benet are now reunited and comforting each other. :rose:

[GrrlPwer]

Originally posted by socaldiva


As I recall, according to John, he was asked by LE to make a search of the house. So he took his friend & they started at the bottom, intending to work their way up. yep you were right......sorry. i went to this link and read it . sure enough the LE did ask them to look. is that NOT stupid or what? http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html

[Babby~A]

Originally posted by GrrlPwer
I still wonder why did John go down to the basement with out LE. and why did he remove that duct tape from her mouth? i'm sorry but i just think some how they knew something :shrug:

He said he was told to look around to see if anything was out of the ordinary.

I would have removed the tape too, on gut reaction instinct rather than reason, given the circumstances.

[socaldiva]

Originally posted by GrrlPwer
[B][*snip*
sorry. i went to this link and read it . sure enough the LE did ask them to look. is that NOT stupid or what?

No problem & I don't think it's stupid. I just happened to have started to read the Ramsey's book last week, so it was fresh in my mind.

[socaldiva]

Originally posted by Babby~A
*snip*
I would have removed the tape too, on gut reaction instinct rather than reason, given the circumstances.

I agree with you on the tape.

[SPYCEE3]

Originally posted by Former Juror


Yes, unfortunately, parents kill their children more often than I'd like to admit.

I understand that reasonable people can disagree on this case. But, yes, I absolutely, without ANY doubt, believe Patsy is guilty.

IMOOC

I realize that parents kill their children everyday...but I do not now or have I ever believed the Ramseys killed their daughter.

Why would Patsy do that do a little girl that she deeply loved and cherished? Please don't tell me it was because JonBenet wet the bed one too many times either. That's totally ludicrous!

You say that "without ANY doubt", you believe Patsy is guilty. Could you please elaborate. Oh and by the way...John's Christmas bonus was no big secret.

[MissOtisRegrets]

On either the segment yesterday on CC Live or the CTV program last night (I don't remember which), it was said that neither the FBI nor Interpol have one case on file of parents killing their child the way JonBenet was murdered.

[Adalena935]

It's really a weird case. Yeah, he probably was looking to see if she was alive or what when he took the tape off her mouth. Either that or he didn't want his little girls mouth taped up anymore. I sure wouldn't.

Last night's show on the case was the first time I heard about the bowl of pineapple and the glass of tea.

Boulder police really messed up. I definitely think someone outside the family did this crime. Not the least of which is an unknown white male's dna on her panties.

Was another lengthy documentary on this case some months back. Maybe even a year ago, can't remember. It was intriguing. Said there was evidence in this case the boulder police didn't want allowed in.

That show also talked about a rapist in the area at the time who was breaking & entering homes to rape kids & young girls.

I didn't follow this case. Guess I was busy at the time. I never believed the parents were involved initially. Then as I got news snippets with all the hoop-la of it in the news, I wondered. But I never believed the parents would've been so torturous as what was done to this child. A real sadist did this; with the garat and all. Like the show last night pointed out, the parents wouldn't have needed to use a stun gun to move the child from her bed to the basement.

I think it's solvable and I hope they're able to solve it one day. Whoever did this is a pure monster.

Know who would have access to the lay-out of the family's house floor plan, and info on the father's jobs, etc? a cop.

Every time I've watched stuff about this case and how supposedly unsolvable it was, I was reminded of a stalker I had many yrs ago. Who had a ton of info on my private life. Even entered my home when hub & I were at work. That went on for 12 yrs. It was a law enforcement officer.

Please don't anyone tell me I'm picking on cops or that I don't respect or like them. That's surely not true. I'm just telling the truth about an incident in my own life. There are some bad people in the world and sometimes some of them find their career(s) in law enforcement. That is a fact of life I did not manufacture.

I'm not saying a cop did this Ramsey crime. I'm saying it's possible.

[Adalena935]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
On either the segment yesterday on CC Live or the CTV program last night (I don't remember which), it was said that neither the FBI nor Interpol have one case on file of parents killing their child the way JonBenet was murdered.

I wouldn't doubt that. It was so brutal. I never believed the Father did that or that the Mother was in cahoots with him on it. I always thought that was ludicrous.

Those poor people. NO wonder they left and moved to another state. I don't know how they stood it, frankly. I think they held up unbelieveablly well all things considered.

Such a beautiful little child. There's sure some unthinkable crimes committed in this old world.

[elroh6]

Originally posted by socaldiva


I agree with you on the tape. Same here. I don't find the removal of the tape at all incriminating.

[Alliekat]

Originally posted by Former Juror


Yes, unfortunately, parents kill their children more often than I'd like to admit.

I understand that reasonable people can disagree on this case. But, yes, I absolutely, without ANY doubt, believe Patsy is guilty.

IMOOC

Former Juror....we agree...again.!! Scary...:chicken: :D

[Adalena935]

Originally posted by CaliforniaGuy


Anybody who is a parent, as much as they love their children, has been pushed to the point where they almost lost it and beat their kids. Fortunately, most parents get themselves under control before they do.

Aw, you know that's not true don't you?

Originally posted by CaliforniaGuy
Unfortunately for Patsy Ramsey when she lost it that night with her daughter, for reasons we will never know, she couldn't get a grip and, in a fit of rage, killed her daughter.

MOO

[Adalena935]

One day they'll solve this crime and they'll ID who that partial DNA in JonBenet's panties belongs to.

[jantheman]

Originally posted by CaliforniaGuy


Anybody who is a parent, as much as they love their children, has been pushed to the point where they almost lost it and beat their kids. Fortunately, most parents get themselves under control before they do.

Unfortunately for Patsy Ramsey when she lost it that night with her daughter, for reasons we will never know, she couldn't get a grip and, in a fit of rage, killed her daughter.

MOO i agree that could happen..and i could see it if it was a simple case of a ..child thrown against a wall. but the garotting..the head trauma doesnt fit, for me. but i will be the first to admit i don't know as much about this case as others i followed. i had never heard about the pineapple ect.

[Former Juror]

Originally posted by Alliekat


Former Juror....we agree...again.!! Scary...:chicken:

Is that two times in the same month? :D

:beer:

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin
John found her around 1:00 p.m. - rigor mortis had set in. Has anyone heard the appx. time of death?

I'm not sure they know, Rosy. Wasn't it said that they were trying to find out when she ate the pineapple to be able to approximate the time of death? I believe they said the pineapple would have taken between four and five hours to reach her small intestine.

[friscokeys]

Originally posted by CaliforniaGuy


Anybody who is a parent, as much as they love their children, has been pushed to the point where they almost lost it and beat their kids.

MOO


I have a beautiful 12 year old daughter.

Not once, since the day she was born, have I ever been pushed to the point of almost losing it and beating my child. Not once!

[Former Juror]

Originally posted by rosyredrobin
I find it very interesting that Boulder DA Mary Lacy and her husband went to Atlanta to pay their last respects to Patsy.

I watched LKL tonight. I think former detective Steve Thomas had tunnel vision. JMO

I saw the episode between the Ramseys and Steve Thomas the night it originally aired. Steve Thomas is/was absolutely correct in his assertions because even Patsy agreed that the writer of the ransom note killed Jonbenet. And, of the 73 potential suspects, Patsy was the only one not eliminated. John admitted as such on that program. Another coincidence?

One coincidence. Maybe. Two coincidences? Maybe. But, not the whole host that are present in this case.

As far as the D.A., she was on the side of the Ramseys from the day she took office, IMO. Her press conference reminded me of a defense attorney rather than a D.A. I don't care if she attended the funeral or not, as it has no bearing on the actual guilt or innocence of Patsy.

Unfortunately, this case is cold, and IMO, will never even be lukewarm again.

[SPYCEE3]

Originally posted by Nanotech
Patsy R.I.P.:rose:

But, I think she may have killed her daughter.

I am trying to recall, but wasn't Patsy taking antidepressants
at the time (because of John having an affair, previously and
because of the cancer)?
That night, they had gone to a party and I wonder if she may
have had a drink. I wonder if Jon Benet didn't wet the bed,
Patsy, under the influence of the anti-depressant/alcohol combo,
became enraged, snatched her down stairs, and did it.
In her haze she wrote the note. I don't know how John got
involved but he was protecting her (still under guilt from the
affair, Patsy's cancer) helped cover up.

He knew JB's body was in the basement, that is why in his
hysteria, he called to have his plane ready after reporting she
was missing.

Does anyone think this could have been a possibility?

No!

[GrrlPwer]

Originally posted by Former Juror


Yes, unfortunately, parents kill their children more often than I'd like to admit.

I understand that reasonable people can disagree on this case. But, yes, I absolutely, without ANY doubt, believe Patsy is guilty.

IMOOC i totally agree

[GrrlPwer]

Originally posted by Nanotech
Patsy R.I.P.:rose:

But, I think she may have killed her daughter.

I am trying to recall, but wasn't Patsy taking antidepressants
at the time (because of John having an affair, previously and
because of the cancer)?
That night, they had gone to a party and I wonder if she may
have had a drink. I wonder if Jon Benet didn't wet the bed,
Patsy, under the influence of the anti-depressant/alcohol combo,
became enraged, snatched her down stairs, and did it.
In her haze she wrote the note. I don't know how John got
involved but he was protecting her (still under guilt from the
affair, Patsy's cancer) helped cover up.

He knew JB's body was in the basement, that is why in his
hysteria, he called to have his plane ready after reporting she
was missing.

Does anyone think this could have been a possibility? i've always thought Patsy wrote the note. With this case nothing would suprise me

[liketospeculate]

I do not believe that Patsy Ramsy had anything to do with her daughter's death - I think the police had tunnel vision from the beginning - they have never been able to explain the DNA on her panties or the fingerprints belonging to no one in the family - just because they couldn't exclude Patsy as the writer of the note - they also couldn't say it was her - so in my opinion that is just speculation - the dna evidence and fingerprint evidence are not speculation - hopefully some day this creep's dna will be put into a police computer some day and come up as a match!

[liketospeculate]

Originally posted by Former Juror


Yes, unfortunately, parents kill their children more often than I'd like to admit.

I understand that reasonable people can disagree on this case. But, yes, I absolutely, without ANY doubt, believe Patsy is guilty.

IMOOC

What evidence do you rely on to accuse her of this murder - I am not asking about speculations - I am asking what specific evidence - since everyone is innocent until proven guilty by a preponderance of evidence -

[paralegallin]

Originally posted by SPYCEE3


Oh oh...I see! You obviously believe the Ramseys were the despicable culprits that killed their young daughter. Fair enough! I totally disagree with you...I don't believe they had anything to do with it. :seeya:

I think Burke did it and he was found out and rather than losing both children in one form or another, they came up with this rather stupid idea of a fake kidnapping.

[GrrlPwer]

Originally posted by paralegallin


I think Burke did it and he was found out and rather than losing both children in one form or another, they came up with this rather stupid idea of a fake kidnapping. yeah i have a gut feeling that one of them killed her and then they had to cover it up.

[liketospeculate]

Originally posted by paralegallin


I think Burke did it and he was found out and rather than losing both children in one form or another, they came up with this rather stupid idea of a fake kidnapping.

Do you really believe that or are you being sarcastic - Burke was a young child himself - it wasn't his dna found on the panties - also how could he have gotten his sister down in the basement, strangled her, etc.

[theal2]

It's still a mystery. And a grand jury was convened and didn't indict either parent - not enough evidence. So, to me it's hard to judge Patsy. In recent times we've heard cases where people come into houses and nap kids and parents hear nothing : girls in Utah; 2 kids in Florida etc.

The DNA under fingernail that did not match parents, may one day tell the story.

[rph3664]

Originally posted by paralegallin


I think Burke did it and he was found out and rather than losing both children in one form or another, they came up with this rather stupid idea of a fake kidnapping.

I don't think a 9-year-old would have the physical strength to do what was done to JonBenet. And it would have been extremely unlikely for him to have deposited semen as boys don't produce that until somewhat later - 12 or 13, usually.

I used to believe her parents did it, but now I don't. I DO believe they know more than they ever told. Exactly how much more, I have no idea.

:rose: :rose:

[Postergeist]

I posted this link on another board but it does have some details that people might've forgotten

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,,1803742,00.html

here's some snippets from it...

"The garrotte was an unusual method of strangulation, though one which was common in the Philippines, where John Ramsey had once been stationed at a naval base."



"There was a footprint near the body left by a Hi-Tec boot. There was a latent handprint on the doorframe that didn't match any of the Ramseys'. If you looked closely, there were marks on the child's back and neck that were consistent with the use of a stun gun."

some more info...

"Other suspects cropped up: there was Gary Oliva, a convicted sex offender who had been seen hanging around the alleyway at the back of the house. He had spent time in prison for raping a seven-year-old girl in Oregon, and talked about making bacon out of a little girl's skin. In March 1997, a tip came in about Oliva: he had called a friend on 26 December and sobbed hysterically, saying he had done something terrible to a little girl. A year later, he attended JonBenet's memorial service. Four years later, two weeks before Christmas, he was arrested on the Colorado University campus for trespassing. The policeman who made the arrest searched his backpack and found a stun gun, a photo of JonBenet and an ode to her.

Chris Wolf, a freelance journalist, became a suspect when his girlfriend called the police and said he had stormed out of the house on Christmas night and come back the following morning, with muddy clothes. He became furious when he saw news reports of JonBenet's death on TV. The ransom note was signed 'S.B.T.C'; Wolf had a sweatshirt bearing those initials - they stood for Santa Barbara Tennis Club. He had written an article about John Ramsey's company, Access Graphics, and may have had access to information about his bonus. He was a friend of Bill McReynolds. The theory that there was more than one intruder has been seriously considered.

But the suspect who looked most likely was dead within two months of the murder. Michael Helgoth seemed to have shot himself the day after District Attorney Alex Hunter announced they were closing in on the killer. But this, too, began to look like murder. Helgoth was right-handed, but the trajectory of the fatal bullet went from left to right.

In Helgoth's apartment were found a pair of Hi-Tec boots, a stun gun, a baseball cap with the letters 'SBTC' on it, and a videotape of a news story about the unsolved kidnap and murder of a six-year-old girl. If there were two assailants, could the other have silenced this one?"

[paralegallin]

Originally posted by liketospeculate


Do you really believe that or are you being sarcastic - Burke was a young child himself - it wasn't his dna found on the panties - also how could he have gotten his sister down in the basement, strangled her, etc.

No it was not sarcasm. I think it was someone in the family that killed that poor little girl. I can't answer the dna question as I have not read up on the dna they have found there. It's not hard to get a younger sibling to play follow the leader and have them sneak downstairs. Plus there is the game that the schools are sending flyers home about ..the strangle game...where the kids themselves or friends are strangling each other to get that warm fuzzy feeling and kids are dying. I am sure this is not the first batch of kids to play it.

I don't know what exactly happened that night, but I can say I feel that somebody in that family had something to do with the death of her.

[liketospeculate]

Originally posted by Postergeist
I posted this link on another board but it does have some details that people might've forgotten

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,,1803742,00.html

here's some snippets from it...

"The garrotte was an unusual method of strangulation, though one which was common in the Philippines, where John Ramsey had once been stationed at a naval base."



"There was a footprint near the body left by a Hi-Tec boot. There was a latent handprint on the doorframe that didn't match any of the Ramseys'. If you looked closely, there were marks on the child's back and neck that were consistent with the use of a stun gun."

some more info...

"Other suspects cropped up: there was Gary Oliva, a convicted sex offender who had been seen hanging around the alleyway at the back of the house. He had spent time in prison for raping a seven-year-old girl in Oregon, and talked about making bacon out of a little girl's skin. In March 1997, a tip came in about Oliva: he had called a friend on 26 December and sobbed hysterically, saying he had done something terrible to a little girl. A year later, he attended JonBenet's memorial service. Four years later, two weeks before Christmas, he was arrested on the Colorado University campus for trespassing. The policeman who made the arrest searched his backpack and found a stun gun, a photo of JonBenet and an ode to her.

Chris Wolf, a freelance journalist, became a suspect when his girlfriend called the police and said he had stormed out of the house on Christmas night and come back the following morning, with muddy clothes. He became furious when he saw news reports of JonBenet's death on TV. The ransom note was signed 'S.B.T.C'; Wolf had a sweatshirt bearing those initials - they stood for Santa Barbara Tennis Club. He had written an article about John Ramsey's company, Access Graphics, and may have had access to information about his bonus. He was a friend of Bill McReynolds. The theory that there was more than one intruder has been seriously considered.

But the suspect who looked most likely was dead within two months of the murder. Michael Helgoth seemed to have shot himself the day after District Attorney Alex Hunter announced they were closing in on the killer. But this, too, began to look like murder. Helgoth was right-handed, but the trajectory of the fatal bullet went from left to right.

In Helgoth's apartment were found a pair of Hi-Tec boots, a stun gun, a baseball cap with the letters 'SBTC' on it, and a videotape of a news story about the unsolved kidnap and murder of a six-year-old girl. If there were two assailants, could the other have silenced this one?"

All interesting - do you know if dna of any of these guys was tested against dna found on JonBenet - seems like it would be simple to rule them out or in

[theal2]

Wow. Never heard any of the above details regarding SBTC etc. in America or TV shows. Does Nancy Grace know all this. It's very interesting.

[socaldiva]

Originally posted by CaliforniaGuy
[B]*snip*

Anybody who is a parent, as much as they love their children, has been pushed to the point where they almost lost it and beat their kids. Fortunately, most parents get themselves under control before they do.



No me. I've been raising children for 26 yrs now & I've never come close to losing it & my children are not saints, nor am I.

[liketospeculate]

Originally posted by paralegallin


No it was not sarcasm. I think it was someone in the family that killed that poor little girl. I can't answer the dna question as I have not read up on the dna they have found there. It's not hard to get a younger sibling to play follow the leader and have them sneak downstairs. Plus there is the game that the schools are sending flyers home about ..the strangle game...where the kids themselves or friends are strangling each other to get that warm fuzzy feeling and kids are dying. I am sure this is not the first batch of kids to play it.

I don't know what exactly happened that night, but I can say I feel that somebody in that family had something to do with the death of her.

This was no "strangle game" it was a very deliberate strangulation with very sophisticated knotting - the dna matches no one in the family or any close friends/associates of the family - neither do prints found - shoe prints found by her were not Burke's size - do you think he would have killed her and then quietly gone back to sleep? What evidence - actual evidence - tells you the family had something to do with it

[Postergeist]

Originally posted by theal2
Wow. Never heard any of the above details regarding SBTC etc. in America or TV shows. Does Nancy Grace know all this. It's very interesting.

I recall that either the Star or the Enquirer did do a story on that Helgoth man, including photos from his room and showing his boots.

I also recall a show on either A&E or CTV that had crime scene photos where there was a picture that showed a dust ruffle on one of the beds that was moved back where it could be in that position if someone was lying under the bed trying to hide out.

It was that show that made me think the parents and son were NOT involved in the tragic death of JonBenet.

[csiwannabe]

Originally posted by liketospeculate


All interesting - do you know if dna of any of these guys was tested against dna found on JonBenet - seems like it would be simple to rule them out or in
That's a good question 'liketospeculate' I hope some one on the boards will be able to answer that question. I read somewhere else that they run the DNA found on JB through CODIS weekly but they still haven't found any thing.

[paralegallin]

Originally posted by liketospeculate


This was no "strangle game" it was a very deliberate strangulation with very sophisticated knotting - the dna matches no one in the family or any close friends/associates of the family - neither do prints found - shoe prints found by her were not Burke's size - do you think he would have killed her and then quietly gone back to sleep? What evidence - actual evidence - tells you the family had something to do with it

The ransom note written inside the house on their paper and from their own pen. Most kidnappers go in with a plan and their ransom note already to go.

The fact that it was left on the back stairs. What kidnapper would do that? They would either leave it in the bed where she slept or somewhere more prominent.

The fact that she was left in the house. If it was a kidnapping gone bad, they sure as heck wouldn't leave the note there ..just in case there was FE on it. That would be to dumb.

The amount asked for in the ransom note. To dead on for the amount he received in his bonus. How many people outside the family would truly know how much his bonus was?

You do not know for a fact that it wasn't a strangulation game gone bad. We don't know for a fact that it did not happen that way and then perhaps the da got involved to steer away from Burke and did the rest of it himself, meaning the garrotte and such.

[Postergeist]

Originally posted by liketospeculate


All interesting - do you know if dna of any of these guys was tested against dna found on JonBenet - seems like it would be simple to rule them out or in

No hadn't heard and just came across that article this week. I know there was a big deal made about Patsy getting up and putting on the same clothes she wore the night before, she was really scrutinized during that time where others apparently weren't.

It was also mentioned in some book about business mags found in the home with a heart drawn around John's picture or something like that.

Lots of odd and strange tidbits of things.

imo

[liketospeculate]

Originally posted by paralegallin


The ransom note written inside the house on their paper and from their own pen. Most kidnappers go in with a plan and their ransom note already to go.

The fact that it was left on the back stairs. What kidnapper would do that? They would either leave it in the bed where she slept or somewhere more prominent.

The fact that she was left in the house. If it was a kidnapping gone bad, they sure as heck wouldn't leave the note there ..just in case there was FE on it. That would be to dumb.

The amount asked for in the ransom note. To dead on for the amount he received in his bonus. How many people outside the family would truly know how much his bonus was?

You do not know for a fact that it wasn't a strangulation game gone bad. We don't know for a fact that it did not happen that way and then perhaps the da got involved to steer away from Burke and did the rest of it himself, meaning the garrotte and such.

One explanation for the note being written with their paper and pen and having the amount of bonus is that it was someone who had a grudge against Mr. or Mrs. Ramsey - the amounts of bonuses of a lot of public companies are public info because those companies have to provide their stockholders with that info - could also have been a disgruntled business acquaintance or employee - I don't think the placement of the note is unusual if those are the stairs used by the murderer - one theory had the murderer hiding out in the house for hours while the family was gone to a xmas party - plenty of time to write the note - you say a kidnapper wouldn't leave note there, that it would be to (sic) dumb - well also too dumb to think parents would even bother to write a note and put that exact amount in it knowing that was amount of father's bonus -

Also your theory of strangling game - you are right - I don't know for a fact that they weren't playing the game - but I think it is quite a leap to think they were - it was Christmas night - I think they would have been more likely to get up and play with new toys than to wake up and say "let's play the strangle game." The publicity about that game is very recent - this crime took place several years ago -

Also - remember - not the dad's dna/footprints/palm prints - etc or anyone else's in the family

[csiwannabe]

The Ramseys' obviously had quite a lot of money so why would the ransom note stipulate ONLY $118,000? Why only go for the amount of John's bonus when they could have gone for so much more? Seems a little fishy to me.
I don't really know what to think about this whole case, aside from it being so incredibly tragic. I thought I read in another post that they didn't find Jon Bonet's body until 1pm, that seems flat weird to me. Does any one know if that is fact? If that were my child I would have ripped the house apart upon first discovering that she was missing.

[theal2]

Yes, me too. tear the house apart, except Larry King asked them that and they both said: there was a ransom note; she was not in her room; so we assumed she was kidnapped and called the police.

[chatwuann]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Will05
I could go on & on about why I believe Patsy Ramsey is guilty. I'll just start from the tip of the iceberg. First is the ransom note. I have looked at her handwriting compared to the ransom note & it's nearly a match of Patsy's handwriting. The main thing is the handwriting experts thought that it matched. The pen & notepad all came from the house. Next is she came to the door at 5 am that morning with full make-up & the same clothes she had on the night before.

Steve Thomas, who was one of the lead detectives in the case, had a theory which I believe happened and his theory is that Patsy Ramsey accidentally killed JonBenet in a late-night rage over a bed-wetting incident and then covered it up as a botched kidnapping. I absolutley believe that is what happened. There is no way a stranger could be in that house that long without being detected. Not to mention the notepad & pen to write the ransom note came from that house.

One of the points the Ramseys' like to mention as evidence of an intruder is the broken window in the basement. A few things wrong with that. First is there was a spider web in front of the window that was undisturbed. Second is there were no footprints in the snow outside of the window.

Now having said all of that I don't think they could have ever proven it because it was a botched crime scene from the start. It didn't help matters any when John Ramsey took JonBenet's body from the basement & brought it upstairs to "cry" all over it. Patsy also hugged her body. The cover up was still going on even when the police were there. The Ramsey's had money & lawyers with small town police officers who had never even dealt with a murder. If this crime had occured in a big city Patsy would have died of cancer in prison. John also for helping cover it up. This is just my opinion but I honestly believe this is close to what happened. [/QUOTE/]

I don't believe for one minute that Patsy killed JonBenet over bedwetting. Someone who goes through stage 4 cancer and survives is imo not going to be bothered by bedwetting. She would have to be full of rage(and there is no evidence that Patsy was full of rage when she was alive unless you believe the gibberish of LHP. She has very little crecibility because at first she didn't have anything negative to say about the Ramseys and then later LHP is saying that Patsy did it.) and getting enraged over everything. Patsy when she was alive let JonBenet and Burke make all the messes they wanted and never flew into a rage over them. If Patsy had that bad of a temper then she would be enraged if someone cut her off on the freeway. All this and all the other things you mentioned don't add up to guilt, especially answering the door in full makeup and wearing the same clothes from the day before. That can be easily explained by the fact that it was the day after christmas and Patsy wanted to wear the same outfit. I wear the same outfit two days in a row. Does that mean I am going to kill someone or commit some other crime?

There are some rude things I could post about Steve Thomas but I am going to refrain because imo he isn't worth saying rude comments about.

There was no cover-up and no conspiracy. If there was a conspiracy it was going on in the BPD who wanted to put the Ramseys in jail where they thought they belonged.

This case had a chance of being solved if people who were willing to think outside of the box were investigating it, people like Lou Smit.

JMO

[SPYCEE3]

Originally posted by paralegallin


The ransom note written inside the house on their paper and from their own pen. Most kidnappers go in with a plan and their ransom note already to go.

The fact that it was left on the back stairs. What kidnapper would do that? They would either leave it in the bed where she slept or somewhere more prominent.

The fact that she was left in the house. If it was a kidnapping gone bad, they sure as heck wouldn't leave the note there ..just in case there was FE on it. That would be to dumb.

The amount asked for in the ransom note. To dead on for the amount he received in his bonus. How many people outside the family would truly know how much his bonus was?

You do not know for a fact that it wasn't a strangulation game gone bad. We don't know for a fact that it did not happen that way and then perhaps the da got involved to steer away from Burke and did the rest of it himself, meaning the garrotte and such.

That's some wild speculation. You aren't really a paralegal...are you? How do you know what "most" kidnappers would do? You're doing a lot of generalizing. I don't know what anyone would do in a case like this...and neither do you.

Your last paragraph speaks of not knowing for a "fact" about a strangulation game....well you don't know for a fact what a kidnapper or burglar would do either. It's all your opinion and way too much speculation.

When you say the "da" got involved....do you mean the district attorney or did you leave the last d off dad? What a wild story you tell! :read: