General Discussion /Post Karr

[edna mode]

Someone posted on another forum she heard a promo for a show indicating there was a new lead in the Ramsey case. The poster thought it may have been for one of the entertainment shows...she wasn't sure.

Has anyone seen the show promo? Or, heard this tidbit?

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by edna mode
Someone posted on another forum she heard a promo for a show indicating there was a new lead in the Ramsey case. The poster thought it may have been for one of the entertainment shows...she wasn't sure.

Has anyone seen the show promo? Or, heard this tidbit? I never heard that, Edna...but, I am hoping there is a new lead in this case...I want this perp caught! :seeya:

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar
RE JonBenet's hymen - What Meyer said was:

"The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. "

From his description it sounds like she had a very common crescent shaped hymen. (From 2 o'clock to 10 o'clock) He mentions the abrasion and how it involves the hymen. He would not be saying that if the hymen wasn't there. Furthermore - at the big meeting with Lee and Scheck etc Meyer never says her hymen is eroded or missing. He says there was abrasion and hemorrhaging in the vagina. Also irritation and chronic inflammation in the vaginal vault. He said he was "unsure whether the cause was infection, digital manipulation, lying in urine or even the very unlikely event of self manipulation. It was inconsistant with penile penetration, but chronic vaginal abuse was a possibility." ST ppbk p166. There is also an earlier bit in ST's book where he tells what Meyer told him after the autopsy and nothing is said about a missing hymen. You know if her hymen was gone or nearly gone Steve Thomas would have been shouting it from the rooftops.

We know from her medical records there were 3? 4? times she was seen for the catch-all phrase 'vaginal irritation.' Once was related to diarrhoea. Once it was suggested bubble bath (a know culprit) could have caused it. We also know little girls are prone to this problem because of the pH in the prepubescent vagina. I think whatever "chronic" irritation she had probably had a benign cause.

Anyway - I think if she'd had "hardly any hymen left" Meyer would have mentioned it.

You are exactly right that the shape seems normal and the hyman must still have been intact or he would have reported otherwise. Chronic and acute do not mean the same thing in regard to anatomy as they do in everyday conversation. In the case of the autopsy it just means that the irritation was caused at least 72 hours previous to her death.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by FurthurBB


You are exactly right that the shape seems normal and the hyman must still have been intact or he would have reported otherwise. Chronic and acute do not mean the same thing in regard to anatomy as they do in everyday conversation. In the case of the autopsy it just means that the irritation was caused at least 72 hours previous to her death.

Cyril Wecht would beg to differ what chronic meant in that autopsy report.

[shill]

Originally posted by rosebud


No I suspect JB was being sexually abused because for one, several imminent forensic pathologists have stated that they believe she was being sexually abused chronically before she died, and because JB allowed ANYONE who was an adult, apparently including men, to wipe down her privates which is very odd, and because her chronic bedwetting, which extended apparently into daytime also, seemed to come and go and had recently reappeared.

On top of that she was murdered and sexually abused on the night she died.

That is why I suspect she was being sexually abused.

Some people on the other hand will NEVER believe the possibility that any child was sexually abused, even after they are murdered. Those people are a child molesters dream.

JMO
It's to bad those "several imminent forensic pathologists" only read a second hand report and didn't get to examin the body like her personal physician did several times for problems dealing in that area.
So why listen to a doctor that had first hand knowledge with a living talking JB over an extended period of time, when you can listen to a bunch of doctors opinions about an autopsie report?

And her hymen had an opening of only 1cm, about the same size diameter as the paintbrush handle of the garrote.

Maybe you're small enough to have left that hole rosebud, but you'd be the only male that small, and that would put you on the top of the suspects list.

[shill]

Riding her new bike around all Christmas morning must have been painful with all that chronic inflamation. I know how saddle soar I get when I haven't ridden a bike in a while.

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


Cyril Wecht would beg to differ what chronic meant in that autopsy report.

Are you sure that he would disagree? How would he disagree, in the time? If he disagrees in the meaning I am not sure how he could ever had been hired as a pathologist. MOO

[nuisanceposter]

Dr Beuf told Diane Sawyer that he had done five or six (he couldn't remember) vaginal exams on JonBenet in the three years prior to her death. He said that was not abnormal, but seriously, ladies, I really think it is.

I am not only the mother of an 11 year old girl, I am the friend of many of other women who have daughters as well - and I have asked around in reference to JB's case as to how many other women have had their daughters examined vaginally that many times before their daughter was even seven years old - NONE. Many were appalled that any doctor would have to conduct so many vaginal exams on a girl that young and thought it was clear indication of sexual abuse.

That doesn't mean none of them had had their daughters examined, it means they hadn't had daughters so young examined and not with that amount of frequency. Two of my friends had had their daughters treated, one for a UTI and another a yeast infection resulting from taking prescription antibiotics.

Most girls under the age of seven are not even aware they have a vagina because they do not experience any itching or irritation in it. I feel so bad for JB, to have had to have dealt with that much discomfort in such a sensitive area.

I simply cannot understand why Patsy didn't take her to see a specailist (at the very least a pediatric urologist) - unless Patsy didn't wish to give any more attention to the situation than was required (some say perhaps she even knew abuse was going on.) I know that sounds harsh, and I'm not saying that was the case, but if it were, Patsy would hardly have been the first mother who ever did so.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter
Dr Beuf told Diane Sawyer that he had done five or six (he couldn't remember) vaginal exams on JonBenet in the three years prior to her death. He said that was not abnormal, but seriously, ladies, I really think it is.

I am not only the mother of an 11 year old girl, I am the friend of many of other women who have daughters as well - and I have asked around in reference to JB's case as to how many other women have had their daughters examined vaginally that many times before their daughter was even seven years old - NONE. Many were appalled that any doctor would have to conduct so many vaginal exams on a girl that young and thought it was clear indication of sexual abuse.

That doesn't mean none of them had had their daughters examined, it means they hadn't had daughters so young examined and not with that amount of frequency. Two of my friends had had their daughters treated, one for a UTI and another a yeast infection resulting from taking prescription antibiotics.

Most girls under the age of seven are not even aware they have a vagina because they do not experience any itching or irritation in it. I feel so bad for JB, to have had to have dealt with that much discomfort in such a sensitive area.

I simply cannot understand why Patsy didn't take her to see a specailist (at the very least a pediatric urologist) - unless Patsy didn't wish to give any more attention to the situation than was required (some say perhaps she even knew abuse was going on.) I know that sounds harsh, and I'm not saying that was the case, but if it were, Patsy would hardly have been the first mother who ever did so.

He's not talking about a full-up feet in the stirrups vaginal exam. He's talking about a look-see while she is in a position to make that possible. It is a standard part of well-baby checks and only takes a second. You may not even have been aware the doctor was checking. Diane Sawyer's show consulted several other pediatricians and none of them felt the visits or diagnoses were out of line.

If Beuf didn't suggest a specialist was needed I don't find it odd that Patsy wouldn't take it upon herself to visit one. Either you have confidence in your doctor's opinion or you change doctors.

Patsy had already dealt with Burke's bedwetting as well as JAR.
I had bedwetters and my main goal was to keep their confidence and self-worth intact while they waited to outgrow the bedwetting. I don't think hauling a kid to a specialist and giving them the idea they are defective in some way is the way to do that.

[nuisanceposter]

I still think five or six vaginal exams in three years on a girl under seven years old is abnormal. Checking her vagina is checking her vagina - and I can tell you my own daughter was not having her vagina checked that frequently.

JonBenet wasn't just wetting the bed. She was soiling herself during any time of day. If it was just bed-wetting, I wouldn't think anything of it.

LHP said JonBenet regularly wet the bed when she first started working there, then it let up for about six months, and then it started up again about a month before JonBenet was killed.

In a situation like that, I think seeing a specialist isn't out of the question. JonBenet couldn't have enjoyed being incontinent - there might have been a medical issue that needed to be addressed or there may have been a treatment that would have helped.

It's also up to the parent to make the right decisions for their child. The pediatrician may not think you need to see a specialist, but ultimately he doesn't get to decide. If a six year old child is wetting herself during the day as well as at night, the parents have a responsibility to make sure her health is what it should be. A pediatric urologist may have found a problem a regular pediatrician hadn't.

[shill]

Would incontinence lead to vaginal itching?
And to a point of cronic itching that JB would have done to herself, leaving the appearance of molestation?

[MyrDawn]

Originally posted by shill
Would incontinence lead to vaginal itching?
And to a point of cronic itching that JB would have done to herself, leaving the appearance of molestation?

I seriously doubt it. And, I haven't heard JonBenet had an incontinence problem. A child that age having accidents isn't the same thing.

However, vaginal infections can cause itching, and, according to her pediatritian, she did have several bouts with vaginal infection.

MOO

[FurthurBB]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar
RE JonBenet's hymen - What Meyer said was:

"The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. "

From his description it sounds like she had a very common crescent shaped hymen. (From 2 o'clock to 10 o'clock) He mentions the abrasion and how it involves the hymen. He would not be saying that if the hymen wasn't there. Furthermore - at the big meeting with Lee and Scheck etc Meyer never says her hymen is eroded or missing. He says there was abrasion and hemorrhaging in the vagina. Also irritation and chronic inflammation in the vaginal vault. He said he was "unsure whether the cause was infection, digital manipulation, lying in urine or even the very unlikely event of self manipulation. It was inconsistant with penile penetration, but chronic vaginal abuse was a possibility." ST ppbk p166. There is also an earlier bit in ST's book where he tells what Meyer told him after the autopsy and nothing is said about a missing hymen. You know if her hymen was gone or nearly gone Steve Thomas would have been shouting it from the rooftops.

We know from her medical records there were 3? 4? times she was seen for the catch-all phrase 'vaginal irritation.' Once was related to diarrhoea. Once it was suggested bubble bath (a know culprit) could have caused it. We also know little girls are prone to this problem because of the pH in the prepubescent vagina. I think whatever "chronic" irritation she had probably had a benign cause.

Anyway - I think if she'd had "hardly any hymen left" Meyer would have mentioned it.

This is the most common shape for the hymen. crescent-shaped, crescentic, or posterior rim: no hymenal tissue at the 12 o'clock position; narrow band of tissue starts at 1 or 2 o'clock going clockwise, is at its widest around 6 o'clock, and tapers off at 10 or 11 o'clock. The hymen is almost always just a rim of mucosal tissue. Human Atatomy and Physiology Page 1004, Grey's Anatomy page 1695, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen

[Athena]

Originally posted by Sprocket


So, you're certain that Kane, a highly respected attorney would not review the lab reports himself? That he did not familarize himself with the case file?

That the actual case file had inaccurate reports in it? That the reports in the case file are false, and that's what Kane relied on...false reports?

Find me one reputable source that supports this assumption.

That's pretty convoluted logic.

He was given a presentation by the BPD. Everything I have read indicate that they did not have time to personally review 30-40,000 pages of police reports. Even in a few of the interviews one for example the alleged fibers from Patsy's jacket they weren't even sure what the material was and stated they believed the jacket to be red when in fact it was black, gray and red checked.

Sorry but lawyers are known to lie or stretch the truth including Prosecutors unless they do it in front of a Judge in a Court of Law and only then can they be disbarred or sanctioned. JMO

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by Athena


He was given a presentation by the BPD. Everything I have read indicate that they did not have time to personally review 30-40,000 pages of police reports. Even in a few of the interviews one for example the alleged fibers from Patsy's jacket they weren't even sure what the material was and stated they believed the jacket to be red when in fact it was black, gray and red checked.

Sorry but lawyers are known to lie or stretch the truth including Prosecutors unless they do it in front of a Judge in a Court of Law and only then can they be disbarred or sanctioned. JMO

Page 184 PM/PT....four fibers found on tape. Colors were red and black.

[shill]

To bad there's no way of ever knowing how those four red fibers transferred to the tape.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


Page 184 PM/PT....four fibers found on tape. Colors were red and black.

September 21, 2001
Thomas depo:
18 Q. I think I understand you. The
19 red fibers, we're talking about the red
20 fibers off the duct tape, right, the ones
21 that Mr. Hoffman asked you about?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That were consistent or a likely
24 match with Patsy Ramsey's jacket?
25 A. Yes.
251
1 Q. That was the red and black and
2 gray jacket that she was wearing?
3 A. I've always heard it referred to
4 as a red and black jacket, yes.
5 Q. It's the one in the photograph,
6 though, that was produced where they went
7 back a year afterwards and tried to find what
8 they were wearing, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you aware of the fact that
11 Priscilla White owned an identical jacket,
12 that in fact Patsy Ramsey bought her jacket
13 because she liked Priscilla White's so much?
14 A. Until you told me that right now,
15 no.
16 Q. So I assume that no request, that
17 you're aware of, was ever made for the Whites
18 to give articles of clothing with respect to
19 this investigation?
20 A. They may have been asked to give
21 clothing; I'm unaware of that.
22 Q. There were no black fibers that
23 were found on the duct tape that were said
24 to be consistent with the fibers on Patsy
25 Ramsey's red and black jacket, were there?
252
1 A. It's my understanding that the
2 four fibers were red in color.

[Coloradokares]

Judge Carnes wasn't that the Atlanta Judge. Civil Court? And the evidence she had to rule on was provided almost totally by the Ramsey attorneys. That is the only judge who ever ruled that way.

Originally posted by rashomon

This shows that Judge Carnes has never read the autopsy report. JB's hymen was not 'torn': the hymen consisted only of a rim of tissue going from the two to ten o'clock position. In short: there was hardly any hymen left in JB.
And it is a blatant lie to allege that no evidence exists that JB was the victim of prior sexual abuse. Shame on such a judge, who ruled on important things and didn't even bother to read Dr. McCann's report. Simply incredible. Justice, Boulder style.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar


September 21, 2001
Thomas depo:
18 Q. I think I understand you. The
19 red fibers, we're talking about the red
20 fibers off the duct tape, right, the ones
21 that Mr. Hoffman asked you about?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That were consistent or a likely
24 match with Patsy Ramsey's jacket?
25 A. Yes.
251
1 Q. That was the red and black and
2 gray jacket that she was wearing?
3 A. I've always heard it referred to
4 as a red and black jacket, yes.
5 Q. It's the one in the photograph,
6 though, that was produced where they went
7 back a year afterwards and tried to find what
8 they were wearing, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you aware of the fact that
11 Priscilla White owned an identical jacket,
12 that in fact Patsy Ramsey bought her jacket
13 because she liked Priscilla White's so much?
14 A. Until you told me that right now,
15 no.
16 Q. So I assume that no request, that
17 you're aware of, was ever made for the Whites
18 to give articles of clothing with respect to
19 this investigation?
20 A. They may have been asked to give
21 clothing; I'm unaware of that.
22 Q. There were no black fibers that
23 were found on the duct tape that were said
24 to be consistent with the fibers on Patsy
25 Ramsey's red and black jacket, were there?
252
1 A. It's my understanding that the
2 four fibers were red in color.


It's his "understanding?" So is PM/PT wrong on that account or is Steve Thomas wrong? :shrug:

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by MyrDawn


I seriously doubt it. And, I haven't heard JonBenet had an incontinence problem. A child that age having accidents isn't the same thing.

However, vaginal infections can cause itching, and, according to her pediatritian, she did have several bouts with vaginal infection.

MOO

Which Patsy failed to mention to the police when they questioned her about JBs doctor visits and the reasons for them.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


It's his "understanding?" So is PM/PT wrong on that account or is Steve Thomas wrong? :shrug:

I feel your frustration... :-)

But Thomas was under oath and had the police files plus over the years the consensus on the boards seems to be that the fibers were red.

You know - one of the reasons I really hope there is life after death is I figure that is the only way I'll get answers to some of this stuff.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Louisadelmar


I feel your frustration... :-)

But Thomas was under oath and had the police files plus over the years the consensus on the boards seems to be that the fibers were red.

You know - one of the reasons I really hope there is life after death is I figure that is the only way I'll get answers to some of this stuff.

LOL! Louisa ... does that mean you have no faith that this case is going to be solved in your lifetime. :tongue:

[Athena]

Originally posted by thewhitewitch1


It's his "understanding?" So is PM/PT wrong on that account or is Steve Thomas wrong? :shrug:

I hear ya TWW. That's why when you read you have to compare the legal documents. In this case Thomas' depo is a legal document; however Schiller did interview Thomas for his book which I believe I had stated before that there are minior discrepancies in PM/PT. Read, verify and confirm.

Would be nice if there was one really accurate book -- but PMPT is the closest at this point in time.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally posted by Athena


LOL! Louisa ... does that mean you have no faith that this case is going to be solved in your lifetime. :tongue:

Nope. I had one brief, shining moment of hope when MSNBC said Karr's DNA matched - and we know how long THAT lasted. 30 seconds?

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally posted by Athena


I hear ya TWW. That's why when you read you have to compare the legal documents. In this case Thomas' depo is a legal document; however Schiller did interview Thomas for his book which I believe I had stated before that there are minior discrepancies in PM/PT. Read, verify and confirm.

Would be nice if there was one really accurate book -- but PMPT is the closest at this point in time.

I know, Athena. I do read and compare when possible. I had to get PM/PT and DOI from the library so I don't have them on hand to cross reference. There are so many inconsistancies everywhere...even in the legal documents. It's hard to know for sure what is a stone hard fact. :(