Nona Dirksmeyer, 2005 Miss Arkansas pageant contestant found dead in her apartment

[lorettalockhorn]

unlike Christina...I found my notes from the few days I was at the trial...anyway, I was reading over my notes of the video statement of Jones the night of the murder...Jones tells one of the detectives in response to "did you touch anything?" JOnes says he touched the card. and the det asked if his mom or ryan touched anything and his reply: "they were careful not to touch anything my mom said don't touch nothing" "ryan just stood there and tried not to touch anything" he said he got on top of her and stayed on top of her until the police got there. in the beginning of the interview he says his mom told him to get on top of her. He also remembered hitting the wall near the stairs
according to my notes, he never referenced "why" he touched the card

I thought those snipets were interseting and wanted to share....

Yikes!

Wasn't he still on Nona when EMS got there? Did RPD actually get there before EMS, but didn't tell him to get the hayell away from her?

[optimumprimal78]

He hit the wall huh? Very emotional I would say what with the hitting of the wall and the police chair and all.

[hawgustusgloop]

unlike Christina...I found my notes from the few days I was at the trial...anyway, I was reading over my notes of the video statement of Jones the night of the murder...Jones tells one of the detectives in response to "did you touch anything?" JOnes says he touched the card. and the det asked if his mom or ryan touched anything and his reply: "they were careful not to touch anything my mom said don't touch nothing" "ryan just stood there and tried not to touch anything" he said he got on top of her and stayed on top of her until the police got there. in the beginning of the interview he says his mom told him to get on top of her. He also remembered hitting the wall near the stairs
according to my notes, he never referenced "why" he touched the card

I thought those snipets were interseting and wanted to share....

So, I wonder how Christina knew why he touched the card? Did Kevin testify without anyone else noticing?

[christina]

The 911 call didn't last long and they didn't give EXACT times, but it was a few mins before 630 bc that's when EMTs arrived. The 911/EMT said 3-4 mins to respond after call was made and location specified. The 911 call was the most "real" piece of evidence today, IMO. By real, I mean real emotion, real everything. Janice was hysterical, the boys were telling her ALL of the information that she needed to give. For instance, the dispatcher would ask Janice the address, she'd ask the boys. Every question was directed to the boys and the boys would yell something. None of them knew the address and were asked by the disp. to look for mail with her name and address on it, which could explain the greeting card being touched, but there was no mention of that during that testimony. This is where Nona's mom cried as did at least 3 jury members (one is pregnant, BTW) One man, I figure a dad with a daughter couldn't hardly stand it. Janice was trying to get answers and the boys were too busy to answer her questions, really. Janice was so frantic, she said at the end of the call, "her mother works at the hospital, her mother works at the hospital." She couldn't hardly, but she did, manage to say her name after a few tries--Nona Dirksmeyer. KJ got on phone for a second and gave the address. B4 this, they needed a home phone # and one of the boys screamed a phone number and then said that she didn't have a home phone, only a cell. It was horrible, really. Incredibly sad, IMO. It got to everyone. Most of what was said was inaudible, as Janice was so hysterical.

Jonikay's notes from July 11th.

[christina]

So, I wonder how Christina knew why he touched the card? Did Kevin testify without anyone else noticing?

I didn't "know"- I was surmising just like everyone else- based on the information given.

[hawgustusgloop]

Jonikay's notes from July 11th.

???

In Jonikay's notes, which appear to be quite good and very detailed, she speculates that that could be the reason he touched it, but expressly states, "None of them knew the address and were asked by the disp. to look for mail with her name and address on it, which could explain the greeting card being touched, but there was no mention of that during that testimony."

[christina]

unlike Christina...I found my notes from the few days I was at the trial...anyway, I was reading over my notes of the video statement of Jones the night of the murder...Jones tells one of the detectives in response to "did you touch anything?" JOnes says he touched the card. and the det asked if his mom or ryan touched anything and his reply: "they were careful not to touch anything my mom said don't touch nothing" "ryan just stood there and tried not to touch anything" he said he got on top of her and stayed on top of her until the police got there. in the beginning of the interview he says his mom told him to get on top of her. He also remembered hitting the wall near the stairs
according to my notes, he never referenced "why" he touched the card

I thought those snipets were interseting and wanted to share....

You are lucky- and I am frustrated! I will find those notes eventually!!! For the time being I am going back to the dates of the trial and posting pertinent information here.
Which days were you in court?

[lorettalockhorn]

I didn't "know"- I was surmising just like everyone else- based on the information given.

>>which could explain the greeting card being touched, but there was no mention of that during that testimony.

I noticed that there wasn't an envelope near cards in the photo shown in the 48 Hours segment. Was that the same pic shown the jury? Anyone?

[hawgustusgloop]

I didn't "know"- I was surmising just like everyone else- based on the information given.

Sorry, my mistake.

I completely agree. Did he ever give a reason for touching the greeting card?
Looking for an address for 911

[christina]

???

In Jonikay's notes, which appear to be quite good and very detailed, she speculates that that could be the reason he touched it, but expressly states, "None of them knew the address and were asked by the disp. to look for mail with her name and address on it, which could explain the greeting card being touched, but there was no mention of that during that testimony."

Jonikays notes were good, I thought they would be helpful, regardless of where each of us stand on the end result.
The testimony is the tape itself in my opinion. You hear Ms. Jones reading into the phone what she is looking and hear what the others are calling out to her as well.

[christina]

>>which could explain the greeting card being touched, but there was no mention of that during that testimony.

I noticed that there wasn't an envelope near cards in the photo shown in the 48 Hours segment. Was that the same pic shown the jury? Anyone?

I can not confirm or deny that. I taped the 48 Hours show and have not gone back to watch it a second time. The trial was exhausting emtionally for me and watching the show through the first time had a similar effect on me.

[christina]

Sorry, my mistake.

Thank you

[lorettalockhorn]

I can not confirm or deny that. I taped the 48 Hours show and have not gone back to watch it a second time. The trial was exhausting emtionally for me and watching the show through the first time had a similar effect on me.

It was a disturbing program for sure. From the photos to the leaked information to the half truths and full lies.

Still, I wonder why Kevin would have expected Nona's address to be on a card.

Still curious as to why Kevin didn't stay on the phone as requested by the operator and wonder if anyone testified to that. Anyone?

[jonikay]

Jonikays notes were good, I thought they would be helpful, regardless of where each of us stand on the end result.
The testimony is the tape itself in my opinion. You hear Ms. Jones reading into the phone what she is looking and hear what the others are calling out to her as well.
It was also dark in Nona's apartment, right? I believe Laura Brown, EMT, testified that she turned the lights on when she got there. The 911 call was more than one can imagine without actually hearing it. A flood of emotions obviously went through everyone present. It was pure hysteria. JJ told the boys to look through papers to find an address. That is when the card was probably touched.

[hawgustusgloop]

Was the print on the card in Nona's blood, or was it just a thumbprint?

ETA: I'm trying to figure out where this "looking for an address" fits timewise in the scheme of Kevin flailing around and "attempting resuscitation," etc.

[jonikay]

Here are the exact notes that I took of the actual 911 call:
Ready?
I took more notes of JJ's words than the dispatcher's
Dispatcher, pause: . . . What's going on?
JJ: I need the police, honey. My son's girlfriend, I think she's dead . . .
Dispatcher: What is the address, ma'am.
JJ: (yells) I need an address boys . . . it's an apartment on Inglewood. I need the name of the apartment, sweetheart.
Dispatcher: What is the home phone number.
(someone yells, " . . . no home phone."
Dispatcher: I need an address, I need you to find an address . . .
Boy: Oh my god.
Dispatcher: What is her name?
JJ: Nona Dirksmeyer. (Asks boys all questions)
. . . Janice absolutely hysterical . . . "terrible accident"
. . . They couldn't figure out where they were (the address). . .
Dispatcher continues to ask for address, tells them to stay on phone. Boys can be heard yelling in the background . . .
JJ: Let me find my son.
KJ: Hello, S. Inglewood, Apt. #12.
Dispatcher: Asks his name
KJ: My name is Kevin Jones.
Dispatcher calls it in with address
. . . looking for mail (Inglewood Manor) Boy relaying message to JJ
JJ: No clothes on, has socks on. (yells to boys) Don't touch anything.
Dispatcher: When's the last time you spoke to Nona?
JJ: (asks Kevin) Sent text at 9. Tells boys to open door, explains they are driving a white pickup truck. Hears ambulance.
JJ: (hysterical) Her mother works at the hospital.
:rose:

[jonikay]

I can remember bits and pieces of things that I did not write in my notes. I remember hearing the rustling of paper and someone yelling out Nona's mother's address and JJ saying that that is her mother's address. JJ, a few times was actually yelling at the boys in an irate/hysterical manner. Honestly, it seems like that call lasted 30 minutes.

[guppie]

And the other one from the trial.
Hope this helps.


thank you for retrieving those old posts and reposting.

i have one question: is there anyone here that has ever seen a relative or friend dead and has forgotten the position they first saw the body in?

[guppie]

I completely agree. Did he ever give a reason for touching the greeting card?

the blood on the card creeped me out most of all. it hit me like a ton of bricks (red flag, red flag!) KJ's girlfriend of many yrs was lying bloody, murdered on the floor and he was jealous and nosey enough to look at who sent her a card?! someone once claimed KJ was looking for Nona's address to give police. since when do you look on a card itself to get an address? isn't that on the ENVELOPE???

[guppie]

Pictures were shown of a large crack running down the frame of the front door during apartment manager's testimony. Also, there was no deadbolt on the front door.

was there not testimony approximating how long the crack had been there? wouldn't a crack that had been there for say a year look different than one that just got there a few hours before. did anyone testify (friends, relatives) that they had seen the crack before? i don't even know if it was very visible. if it was down low then it may have gone unnoticed.

[guppie]

The expectation is envelopes and cards are near each other.

ok, then if they were near each other, wouldn't you pick up the envelope to see the person's address, not the card?

[Amy]

Was the print on the card in Nona's blood, or was it just a thumbprint?

ETA: I'm trying to figure out where this "looking for an address" fits timewise in the scheme of Kevin flailing around and "attempting resuscitation," etc.

And I'm wondering how they tho't they were going to read the address on any mail they may have discovered if they didn't turn the lights on? It was only a matter of minutes until EMS arrived, and if the lights needed to be turned on then, they surely needed to have been turned on when they were trying to read an address. IMO

[lorettalockhorn]

I can remember bits and pieces of things that I did not write in my notes. I remember hearing the rustling of paper and someone yelling out Nona's mother's address and JJ saying that that is her mother's address. JJ, a few times was actually yelling at the boys in an irate/hysterical manner. Honestly, it seems like that call lasted 30 minutes.

Sounds awful, thanks Jonikay. Seems like the CNN site had the text of the call also, can't remember now if it had times too. I'm still confused that KJ told LE that he stayed with Nona until the police arrived, but Brown had to tell him to get away from her and stand over her to secure the scene.

>> ( Kevin) Sent text at 9.

He doesn't know Nona's address or name of her apartment or the apartment number and thinks he'll find it on a card, rather than an envelope, he's hysterical, but he remembers that Nona sent a text within seven minutes of the actual time.

[lorettalockhorn]

>>JJ: Let me find my son.

Where could he have been and what was he doing that she didn't know whee he was? And KJ had been there before, didn't he know where the lightswitch was? Wouldn't turning on the lights have been the normal, safe, efficient thing to do?

[guppie]

Some have suggested that he may have been looking for an address to tell the 911 operator. IIRC there was no envelope though.

Seriously, I don't believe enough has been said about how strange Kevin's behavior was on the crime scene. We have all heard or at least read the 911 call. The first person on the scene had to ask Kevin to get off Nona. It's one thing for the kid to lose it and hug the body when he first came in. But by the time the call was placed he stated "I think she is dead." Reality should have been setting in. . . she is dead, there is blood everywhere. . . OMG someone killed her. Why on earth was he still taking a blood bath when the EMT (?) arrived??? It was like he wanted her to see how grieved he was. . . an act. Frankly, it's no wonder he was a suspect from day one.


http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15339&Search=kevin%20jones

KJ's mom nor RW turned the lights on during the minutes until the paramedic arrived. (KJ was on Nona's body all that time from what has been said)
why wouldn't KJ's mom or RW turn on the light? maybe because they DIDN'T want to contaminate the crime scene??? yet KJ continuously, for many minutes, contaminated it. i am not buying that KJ was just so upset he sat there a while contaminating the murder scene or that he was looking for Nona's address on the inside of a card on her table. even if he had a knee-jerk reaction to initially seeing her body and grabbed her, it doesn't make sense to me that he would STILL BE THERE many minutes later until the paramedic arrived.

[lorettalockhorn]

And I'm wondering how they tho't they were going to read the address on any mail they may have discovered if they didn't turn the lights on? It was only a matter of minutes until EMS arrived, and if the lights needed to be turned on then, they surely needed to have been turned on when they were trying to read an address. IMO

And why would JJ's and RW's testimony that they didn't see KJ touch the light bulb mean anything? Could they have seen what he was doing?

[guppie]

i wanted to repost this from a few days ago. the response from loulou was not logical not me. obviously, deaths are not the same as murder. so about how many murders are investigated per year in Russellville? would these investigators have had much practice in 2005? is it not understandable that they would make a few errors? don't all investigations have a few errors? i would think that if the murder rate there is low, there is more of a propensity for investigators to overlook some things. this was hardly a "botched" investigation, IMO. if juries only convicted criminals when there were NO investigative errors, there would never be a conviction for any crime. i look at this case and repeatedly think "don't common sense and gut instinct mean anything?"

obviously there were some errors in the investigation, but then again, how many murders are they investigating per year in Russellville, AR? i doubt they had a lot of practice for this sorta thing.

There are not as many as large areas I'm sure, but I can think of several deaths that have been investigated in the Russellville area. It seems it was fairly easy to point the finger at KJ, especially since his prints were on the bulb.I have no clue who "Bubba" is, but the way the investigation was handled, nothing would suprise me at this point.

[ifIwereU]

KJ's mom nor RW turned the lights on during the minutes until the paramedic arrived. (KJ was on Nona's body all that time from what has been said)
why wouldn't KJ's mom or RW turn on the light? maybe because they DIDN'T want to contaminate the crime scene??? yet KJ continuously, for many minutes, contaminated it. i am not buying that KJ was just so upset he sat there a while contaminating the murder scene or that he was looking for Nona's address on the inside of a card on her table. even if he had a knee-jerk reaction to initially seeing her body and grabbed her, it doesn't make sense to me that he would STILL BE THERE many minutes later until the paramedic arrived.


I'm just gonna throw this out there....
it was in Dec right before sundown....it makes sense that it would be light enough to see when they arrived and got darker while they milled around the apt....just a thought..

[lorettalockhorn]

I'm just gonna throw this out there....
it was in Dec right before sundown....it makes sense that it would be light enough to see when they arrived and got darker while they milled around the apt....just a thought..

Doesn't the sun set around 5-5:30 in the winter?

Can't find it now, but Sololobo (I think) posted about it at one time.

[guppie]

Does anyone speak/read/understand legalese?

http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/ftproot/bills/2007/public/SB873.pdf


i wanted to let you know i am looking some things up. a bill is not yet and ACT. i believe what you posted was a bill not yet inacted. i am trying to see if it was passed. it probably was, as a lot of states now have the DNA requirement for all felony and high-level misdemeanor arrestees. however, this would not have been in effect during 2005 or 2006, as it was proposed on 3/3/7 according to the document.

[lorettalockhorn]

i wanted to let you know i am looking some things up. a bill is not yet and ACT. i believe what you posted was a bill not yet inacted. i am trying to see if it was passed. it probably was, as a lot of states now have the DNA requirement for all felony and high-level misdemeanor arrestees. however, this would not have been in effect during 2005 or 2006, as it was proposed on 3/3/7 according to the document.

Thanks guppie, I thought this is a revision of an old senate bill; it was a PDF and I didn't have the patience to read it. (NOT that I would understand it.)

[ifIwereU]

Doesn't the sun set around 5-5:30 in the winter?

Can't find it now, but Sololobo (I think) posted about it at one time.


anyone remember when the 911 came in?

I'll see if I can find where I wrote it down....

[guppie]

Anyways I am not going to comment anymore I have said my peace and I want this forum to go back to discussing what it was meant for.

hopefully you will answer. what made you come out with your story now after all this time? did this forum influence your decision? when did you begin reading?

[guppie]

Thanks guppie, I thought this is a revision of an old senate bill; it was a PDF and I didn't have the patience to read it. (NOT that I would understand it.)

yes, it was a proposed amendment to an old law. i have to see if it was passed. i am not sure on that. will get back to you.

[guppie]

Sounds awful, thanks Jonikay. Seems like the CNN site had the text of the call also, can't remember now if it had times too. I'm still confused that KJ told LE that he stayed with Nona until the police arrived, but Brown had to tell him to get away from her and stand over her to secure the scene.

>> ( Kevin) Sent text at 9.

He doesn't know Nona's address or name of her apartment or the apartment number and thinks he'll find it on a card, rather than an envelope, he's hysterical, but he remembers that Nona sent a text within seven minutes of the actual time.

selective memory???

[ifIwereU]

Ok, I found a post back during the trial which indicated the call to 911 was shortly before 6pm...it just seems to me that if it were dark outside and in KJ and RW would not have been able to see into the door and see Nona...i tend to think it was around dusk when they arrived

[lorettalockhorn]

yes, it was a proposed amendment to an old law. i have to see if it was passed. i am not sure on that. will get back to you.


Act 1470 maybe?

[guppie]

Thanks guppie, I thought this is a revision of an old senate bill; it was a PDF and I didn't have the patience to read it. (NOT that I would understand it.)

can anyone else look at the website for AR Gen Assembly and see if it will let you click on "Search Acts for Specific Text" because everytime i click on it, it knocks me off internet explorer! if you can get to it, type in "Collection of DNA Samples." http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/2007/data/acsa.asp?

i was just trying to see if the amendment was passed on or before 3/3/07.

[lorettalockhorn]

Ok, I found a post back during the trial which indicated the call to 911 was shortly before 6pm...it just seems to me that if it were dark outside and in KJ and RW would not have been able to see into the door and see Nona...i tend to think it was around dusk when they arrived


U, I found this:

Astronomical Twilight occurred at 6:32 pm CST. This is as dark as its going to get:) The sliding door faces east. There is very little ambient light on the east side (street side). If there was any viable light, it had to be from a waning full moon.

Not sure what astronomical twilight is relative to sunset. Also, I thought the call to 911 was 6:30, didn't realize it was so early. Sorry.

Here's one definition: This is defined to be the time period when the sun is between 12 and 18 degrees below the horizon at either sunrise or sunset. ...

[lorettalockhorn]

can anyone else look at the website for AR Gen Assembly and see if it will let you click on "Search Acts for Specific Text" because everytime i click on it, it knocks me off internet explorer! if you can get to it, type in "Collection of DNA Samples." http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/2007/data/acsa.asp?

i was just trying to see if the amendment was passed on or before 3/3/07.


So far I'm getting an error code.

Try this:

http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/NXT/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=blr:ar

Here's Act 1470 of 2003:

http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/NXT/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=blr:ar

[upallnight]

the address would have been on the envelope...not the card and he wouls have known that....

Bingo!

[ifIwereU]

here's a quote I found from Jonikay from the trial...

Loretta you were right...just before 6:30

The 911 call didn't last long and they didn't give EXACT times, but it was a few mins before 630 bc that's when EMTs arrived. The 911/EMT said 3-4 mins to respond after call was made and location specified. The 911 call was the most "real" piece of evidence today, IMO. By real, I mean real emotion, real everything. Janice was hysterical, the boys were telling her ALL of the information that she needed to give. For instance, the dispatcher would ask Janice the address, she'd ask the boys. Every question was directed to the boys and the boys would yell something. None of them knew the address and were asked by the disp. to look for mail with her name and address on it, which could explain the greeting card being touched, but there was no mention of that during that testimony. This is where Nona's mom cried as did at least 3 jury members (one is pregnant, BTW) One man, I figure a dad with a daughter couldn't hardly stand it. Janice was trying to get answers and the boys were too busy to answer her questions, really. Janice was so frantic, she said at the end of the call, "her mother works at the hospital, her mother works at the hospital." She couldn't hardly, but she did, manage to say her name after a few tries--Nona Dirksmeyer. KJ got on phone for a second and gave the address. B4 this, they needed a home phone # and one of the boys screamed a phone number and then said that she didn't have a home phone, only a cell. It was horrible, really. Incredibly sad, IMO. It got to everyone. Most of what was said was inaudible, as Janice was so hysterical.

[ifIwereU]

U, I found this:



Not sure what astronomical twilight is relative to sunset. Also, I thought the call to 911 was 6:30, didn't realize it was so early. Sorry.

Here's one definition: This is defined to be the time period when the sun is between 12 and 18 degrees below the horizon at either sunrise or sunset. ...

quite a mouth full....

[lorettalockhorn]

quite a mouth full....

LOL Okay, now quick! Calculate how fast the sun sets and we will know how long it took for the sun to be approximately 15° below the horizon, subtract that from 6:32 and we will know what time sunset was that day. :eek:

I did find some table that showed it set in LA that day at 4:46pm.

[ifIwereU]

Just got it confirmed by a member of law enforcement- York's mother did call the Sheriff's Office the morning after the murder and referred to Nona as her son's girlfriend. He told me that is one of the reason's they came up with jealousy as a motive for Jones. York was being thought of as Nona's boyfriend. The biology lab partner that testified and called York with the news about Nona viewed York that way as well as Nona's neighbor.
BTW, local law enforcement people I have seen or spoken with prior to and since the trial firmly believe Jones committed the murder.


Christina, I was not posting during this time, and ran across this post while searching for info....i'm wondering if you still have the LE connection? or the courthouse connection you referred to in similar post....

[guppie]

posted 7/25/07
Just got it confirmed by a member of law enforcement- York's mother did call the Sheriff's Office the morning after the murder and referred to Nona as her son's girlfriend. He told me that is one of the reason's they came up with jealousy as a motive for Jones. York was being thought of as Nona's boyfriend. The biology lab partner that testified and called York with the news about Nona viewed York that way as well as Nona's neighbor.
BTW, local law enforcement people I have seen or spoken with prior to and since the trial firmly believe Jones committed the murder.

who was it that was questioning KJ's motive? tigger? geez

[jonikay]

LOL Okay, now quick! Calculate how fast the sun sets and we will know how long it took for the sun to be approximately 15° below the horizon, subtract that from 6:32 and we will know what time sunset was that day. :eek:

I did find some table that showed it set in LA that day at 4:46pm.
Maybe they were afraid to turn on the lights because they didn't want to see . . . that would make it more real. Judging from hearing the 911 call, I'm not surprised that 1. the light wasn't turned on and 2. the greeting card was touched. I just don't think that the two were malicious. Even if KJ did it, I believe he still would have been disturbed to return to the scene, causing chaos and hysteria. The dispatcher was begging for an address and JJ was yelling at them to find anything with an address. In the process of trying to find it, they touched the card, IMO. And remember, it was light enough in the house for RW to see Nona's body before opening the sliding glass door.

[lorettalockhorn]

Omigosh Ox & Christina's Greatest Hits from P151. :punch:

Just got it confirmed by a member of law enforcement- York's mother did call the Sheriff's Office the morning after the murder and referred to Nona as her son's girlfriend. He told me that is one of the reason's they came up with jealousy as a motive for Jones. York was being thought of as Nona's boyfriend. The biology lab partner that testified and called York with the news about Nona viewed York that way as well as Nona's neighbor.
BTW, local law enforcement people I have seen or spoken with prior to and since the trial firmly believe Jones committed the murder.

Who did you talk to so that I may make my own call? Thanks.

Okay. I just made my own phone call and the person I talked to said that what you're claiming isn't true at all.

Fun game, isn't it? Posting rumors as facts without backup or evidence?

Sorry, your sources aren't as knowledgable as mine. And I see you did not name yours either.
I am very comfortable believing that it is true as it was viewed as something that helped the prosecution's case and my law enforcement friend continues to try to get me to see Jones did it.

And, BTW, its not a game to me. As I stated before, as a resident of this community and having a family member attending ATU, I want the truth and this case solved.

[lorettalockhorn]

Maybe they were afraid to turn on the lights because they didn't want to see . . . that would make it more real. Judging from hearing the 911 call, I'm not surprised that 1. the light wasn't turned on and 2. the greeting card was touched. I just don't think that the two were malicious. Even if KJ did it, I believe he still would have been disturbed to return to the scene, causing chaos and hysteria. The dispatcher was begging for an address and JJ was yelling at them to find anything with an address. In the process of trying to find it, they touched the card, IMO. And remember, it was light enough in the house for RW to see Nona's body before opening the sliding glass door.

I don't doubt the hysteria, but I think that the lights weren't on contributed to it. Had any of them known the address, maybe I could see leaving it off. But for pity's sake she was yelling at them to find the address and telling them not to touch anything at a the same time. At a crime scene. Puhleez Kevin surely knew where to find something other than his body to cover Nona with, or they could have stepped outside. It's just ridic that the operator was pressuring them for an address anyway, all they had to do was wave the ambulance in.

[jonikay]

I don't doubt the hysteria, but I think that the lights weren't on contributed to it. Had any of them known the address, maybe I could see leaving it off. But for pity's sake she was yelling at them to find the address and telling them not to touch anything at a the same time. At a crime scene. Puhleez Kevin surely knew where to find something other than his body to cover Nona with, or they could have stepped outside. It's just ridic that the operator was pressuring them for an address anyway, all they had to do was wave the ambulance in.
Well, they stated that they couldn't find them because they didn't call from a landline phone. I think the lights being off most definitely contributed to the chaos. And for the record, at one point during an interrogation, KJ said that he DID NOT touch anything other than the greeting card. No "I don't know," but a "no." He may have wavered on this during another interrogation at another time, but at one point, he said no. The guy, guilty or not, turned her over and tried to pick her up and commenced to tell the investigator that she was lying perfect on her back with her hands down when the emt stated that her arms were stiff in a weird position. Chaos or not, some of the things are still off. I do not know and hope I never have to know how I would act in a situation like that, but I figure in a darkish apartment in a dark complex . . . in seeing Nona's naked body with blood all around, I would have ran the other direction as fast as my little legs could carry me. How were they to know that someone wasn't still there, ya know. I would have been scared that someone was still there. I just know it. I don't know if my urge to try to save her would have overcome this because a bit of a longer look would have probably revealed to them that she was in fact dead.

[lorettalockhorn]

Well, they stated that they couldn't find them because they didn't call from a landline phone. I think the lights being off most definitely contributed to the chaos. And for the record, at one point during an interrogation, KJ said that he DID NOT touch anything other than the greeting card. No "I don't know," but a "no." He may have wavered on this during another interrogation at another time, but at one point, he said no. The guy, guilty or not, turned her over and tried to pick her up and commenced to tell the investigator that she was lying perfect on her back with her hands down when the emt stated that her arms were stiff in a weird position. Chaos or not, some of the things are still off. I do not know and hope I never have to know how I would act in a situation like that, but I figure in a darkish apartment in a dark complex . . . in seeing Nona's naked body with blood all around, I would have ran the other direction as fast as my little legs could carry me. How were they to know that someone wasn't still there, ya know. I would have been scared that someone was still there. I just know it. I don't know if my urge to try to save her would have overcome this because a bit of a longer look would have probably revealed to them that she was in fact dead.

I hear EMS calls on my scanner where the location is unknown or difficult to describe or an exact address is not known; someone meets the ambulance and waves them in. It's not unusual at all. That's why I don't get the operator insisting that she have an address. KJ said that he thought Nona was dead, the operator should have considered it a crime scene.

You are right, we can never know how we would act under such circumstances.

[jonikay]

RW did meet the ambulance at the entrance of the complex. He was outside waving them in the right direction when they arrived.

[guppie]

Maybe they were afraid to turn on the lights because they didn't want to see . . . that would make it more real. Judging from hearing the 911 call, I'm not surprised that 1. the light wasn't turned on and 2. the greeting card was touched. I just don't think that the two were malicious. Even if KJ did it, I believe he still would have been disturbed to return to the scene, causing chaos and hysteria. The dispatcher was begging for an address and JJ was yelling at them to find anything with an address. In the process of trying to find it, they touched the card, IMO. And remember, it was light enough in the house for RW to see Nona's body before opening the sliding glass door.


just because RW saw Nona "on the floor" doesn't mean he could see the extent of what happened. could have just seen her lying there.
i'm sorry, but if i was trying to revive someone, i would do it where i could see what i was doing. maybe it's just me. that is part of the reason i don't think KJ was lying in her blood to revive her.
there's just WAY too many excuses for everything in this case. how many circumstances can be dismissed in one case? my gosh.

[lorettalockhorn]

RW did meet the ambulance at the entrance of the complex. He was outside waving them in the right direction when they arrived.

Right, I think Chrristina made sure that I knew that. That's what the operator should have asked for immediately. And in the meantime, KJ was still inside. Doing what?

[guppie]

Well, they stated that they couldn't find them because they didn't call from a landline phone. I think the lights being off most definitely contributed to the chaos. And for the record, at one point during an interrogation, KJ said that he DID NOT touch anything other than the greeting card. No "I don't know," but a "no." He may have wavered on this during another interrogation at another time, but at one point, he said no. The guy, guilty or not, turned her over and tried to pick her up and commenced to tell the investigator that she was lying perfect on her back with her hands down when the emt stated that her arms were stiff in a weird position. Chaos or not, some of the things are still off. I do not know and hope I never have to know how I would act in a situation like that, but I figure in a darkish apartment in a dark complex . . . in seeing Nona's naked body with blood all around, I would have ran the other direction as fast as my little legs could carry me. How were they to know that someone wasn't still there, ya know. I would have been scared that someone was still there. I just know it. I don't know if my urge to try to save her would have overcome this because a bit of a longer look would have probably revealed to them that she was in fact dead.

there ya go. KJ is saying he did not touch anything other than the card at discovery of Nona's body. HE said that, yet his print is on the bulb. that says to me, he touched it at the time of the crime. he cant have it both ways.

[upallnight]

Some have suggested that he may have been looking for an address to tell the 911 operator. IIRC there was no envelope though.

Seriously, I don't believe enough has been said about how strange Kevin's behavior was on the crime scene. We have all heard or at least read the 911 call. The first person on the scene had to ask Kevin to get off Nona. It's one thing for the kid to lose it and hug the body when he first came in. But by the time the call was placed he stated "I think she is dead." Reality should have been setting in. . . she is dead, there is blood everywhere. . . OMG someone killed her. Why on earth was he still taking a blood bath when the EMT (?) arrived??? It was like he wanted her to see how grieved he was. . . an act. Frankly, it's no wonder he was a suspect from day one.


http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15339&Search=kevin%20jones

I heard this testified to in court from the EMT, well said FD and I agree no wonder he was a suspect from day one. Common sense alone tells me when he said she is dead, there is blood everywhere, OMG someone killer her,******he knew she was dead. But yet he continued...................on top of everything else that he said and did plus the evidence that made him to be the prime suspect. What other evidence is there anyone else did it? As of right now, none. That DNA sure does not over ride what they had on Kevin by any means as of right now. Much-Much more on Kevin. Maybe that will change, maybe it will not. But right now the evidence is what it is and it proved only Kevin's print in Nona's blood on that light bulb. Kevins attorney's may BS the jury, less likely they can BS evidence that possibly does not exist towards a new (viable suspect) to the new S/Pro. Time will tell. Good job Gibbons for still trying to seek Justice For Nona with this S/Pro. no matter what the final outcome is! Another look at it all will with new eyes will not hurt anyone that is innocent!

[jonikay]

Right, I think Chrristina made sure that I knew that. That's what the operator should have asked for immediately. And in the meantime, KJ was still inside. Doing what?
Freaking.Out. That's what KJ was doing. Either on purpose or inadvertently, KJ was freaking out. Messing around with everything to find the address that his mom was screaming, through her sobs, at him to find. He was giving her every piece of information that she relayed to the dispatcher.

[guppie]

I heard this testified to in court from the EMT, well said FD and I agree no wonder he was a suspect from day one. Common sense alone tells me when he said she is dead, there is blood everywhere, OMG someone killer her,******he knew she was dead. But yet he continued...................on top of everything else that he said and did plus the evidence that made him to be the prime suspect. What other evidence is there anyone else did it? As of right now, none. That DNA sure does not over ride what they had on Kevin by any means as of right now. Much-Much more on Kevin. Maybe that will change, maybe it will not. But right now the evidence is what it is and it proved only Kevin's print in Nona's blood on that light bulb. Kevins attorney's may BS the jury, less likely they can BS evidence that possibly does not exist towards a new (viable suspect) to the new S/Pro. Time will tell. Good job Gibbons for still trying to seek Justice For Nona with this S/Pro. no matter what the final outcome is! Another look at it all will with new eyes will not hurt anyone that is innocent!


i haven't heard of a case more compelling with a "not guilty" verdict since OJ. i seriously will throw all of my common sense out the window if i KJ didn't do this. IMO, there is just an insurmountable amount of circumstantial evidence and motive in this case...add to that KJ's bloody palm print in Nona's blood on the murder weapon. it's just too too much to excuse.

[Amy]

Maybe they were afraid to turn on the lights because they didn't want to see . . . that would make it more real. Judging from hearing the 911 call, I'm not surprised that 1. the light wasn't turned on and 2. the greeting card was touched. I just don't think that the two were malicious. Even if KJ did it, I believe he still would have been disturbed to return to the scene, causing chaos and hysteria. The dispatcher was begging for an address and JJ was yelling at them to find anything with an address. In the process of trying to find it, they touched the card, IMO. And remember, it was light enough in the house for RW to see Nona's body before opening the sliding glass door.


1. How could they say they didn't think anything was touched if they were looking for an item with her address? A card without an envelope did not provide the information. Was there other mail on the table that did, or did KJ and/or RW touch other things in their search? They must have found something since they came up with the address.

2. Was KJ the only one looking? Because IIRC, it was said that KJ touched the card, but none of them could recall anyone touching anything else.

3. A body is somewhat of a larger entity than an envelope. And, even if they could see an envelope, unless the writing was large, dark against a light background, the information would still be harder to see. Plus, one could assume that items that might contain an address would be further into the room, away from light that would be coming in the window/door.

[guppie]

Channel 7 news report was similar to Channel 5's but highlighted that in the interrogation tape Kevin credited himself with Nona's success in moving past her abuse, "she met me and I pretty much saved her life."


saw this old post. quote from KJ himself. his own worst enemy once again. backs up my earlier assertion, but he put it even more so saying he was Nona's life-saver in the early yrs of their relationship. goes to motive: someone who deemed himself so high-and-mighty would not want their gf seeing, sleeping with, or even looking at other men. IMO once she didn't need him "saving her life" and he became dispensable, he raged.

[jonikay]

1. How could they say they didn't think anything was touched if they were looking for an item with her address? A card without an envelope did not provide the information. Was there other mail on the table that did, or did KJ and/or RW touch other things in their search? They must have found something since they came up with the address.

2. Was KJ the only one looking? Because IIRC, it was said that KJ touched the card, but none of them could recall anyone touching anything else.

3. A body is somewhat of a larger entity than an envelope. And, even if they could see an envelope, unless the writing was large, dark against a light background, the information would still be harder to see. Plus, one could assume that items that might contain an address would be further into the room, away from light that would be coming in the window/door.
1. There are many inconsistencies weaved throughout this case. What was touched and wasn't touched was one of them. There was a bank statement of Nona's (IIRC) that was looked at for an address with Carol's address on it as all of Nona's mail was sent to her mom.
2. I assume that they were both looking because JJ at one point stated, "I need an address boys."
3. They didn't specify where any of the items were that they touched in their quest for an envelope. Laura Brown did testify that the light upstairs and in the kitchen was on, but the living room light was not on. The whole apartment was not dark, but the living room (which is connected to the stairs and the kitchen, IIRC) was on. christina has a better memory of the layout of the apartment than I do, so maybe she can clarify where, in relationship to the living room, the kitchen and stairs are located.

[guppie]

i wonder if we should put together a thread for "excuses." there must have been hundreds in Nona's case to excuse an unbelievable amount of things...motive, circumstances, blood, print, behavior at scene, etc.
really, how many excuses can there be?

[guppie]

Kevins attorney's may BS the jury, less likely they can BS evidence that possibly does not exist towards a new (viable suspect) to the new S/Pro. Time will tell. Good job Gibbons for still trying to seek Justice For Nona with this S/Pro. no matter what the final outcome is! Another look at it all will with new eyes will not hurt anyone that is innocent!


one thing i will state matter-of-factly: attorneys that can manipulate that well are paid royally. unfortunately, in our legal sytem, it seems he who can afford the highest paid attorneys quite often gets off while sometimes those who get public defenders serve time for what they didn't do. KJ's fam must be in the poor house. just speculation on the poor house comment.

[hawgustusgloop]

>>JJ: Let me find my son.

Where could he have been and what was he doing that she didn't know whee he was? And KJ had been there before, didn't he know where the lightswitch was? Wouldn't turning on the lights have been the normal, safe, efficient thing to do?
Sure it would have been. Especially when there's a chance that whoever did that to Nona could still be lurking in the shadows.

[hawgustusgloop]

This link should take you to the weather and sunrise/sunset information for Russellville on December 15, 2005. It says the sunset was at 5:01 p.m. and the astronomical twilight was at 6:32 p.m. I believe "astronomical twilight" was described by sololobo (I think) as being "as dark as it's going to get."

http://tinyurl.com/2b5wlw

[guppie]

STATISTIC to go with my post about buying the best attorneys (and probably due to some human errors on the part of police):

An estimated 1 out of 6,000 people a year in the U.S. get away with murder.
source: ABC NEWS

[sololobo]

the blood on the card creeped me out most of all. it hit me like a ton of bricks (red flag, red flag!) KJ's girlfriend of many yrs was lying bloody, murdered on the floor and he was jealous and nosey enough to look at who sent her a card?! someone once claimed KJ was looking for Nona's address to give police. since when do you look on a card itself to get an address? isn't that on the ENVELOPE???

IIRC, the card was on the floor beside Nona's body and Kevin picked it up.

[CSOKC]

1. There are many inconsistencies weaved throughout this case. What was touched and wasn't touched was one of them. There was a bank statement of Nona's (IIRC) that was looked at for an address with Carol's address on it as all of Nona's mail was sent to her mom.
2. I assume that they were both looking because JJ at one point stated, "I need an address boys."
3. They didn't specify where any of the items were that they touched in their quest for an envelope. Laura Brown did testify that the light upstairs and in the kitchen was on, but the living room light was not on. The whole apartment was not dark, but the living room (which is connected to the stairs and the kitchen, IIRC) was on. christina has a better memory of the layout of the apartment than I do, so maybe she can clarify where, in relationship to the living room, the kitchen and stairs are located.
The living room isn't directly located near the stairs. To get to them from the living room you could either go through the kitchen and then turn right to the stairs (which are directly left of the front door) or you can walk down a hallway, passing a half-bath and the stairs will be on your right.

Did kevin ever say if he was the one that turned on both of those lights? I'm curious as to why the upstairs light was on. It wouldnt have helped light the living room at all.

[FDInLaw]

Omigosh Ox & Christina's Greatest Hits from P151. :punch:Quote:
Originally Posted by christina
Sorry, your sources aren't as knowledgable as mine. And I see you did not name yours either.
I am very comfortable believing that it is true as it was viewed as something that helped the prosecution's case and my law enforcement friend continues to try to get me to see Jones did it.

And, BTW, its not a game to me. As I stated before, as a resident of this community and having a family member attending ATU, I want the truth and this case solved.

__________________



Great find. I don't remember this exchange and then I noticed the date lol! Kinda busy right then. I'm glad that Christina acknowledges that the call was only ONE reason LE suspected jealousy as a motive. This is so true, whether or not this call was made is not all that significant from that perspective. There is plenty to suggest that motive. . . I just wish it would have been presented better during the trial. Round two? We'll have to wait and see.

When I get a chance I am going to find out about the phone call, I encourage others to do the same. Christina, I'd like to call your source if you don't mind sending me the info via PM (I doubt you will oblige me but it doesn't hurt to ask). :)

[guppie]

IIRC, the card was on the floor beside Nona's body and Kevin picked it up.

WRONG! the card was very plainly on the coffee table. how far was that coffee table? i don't think close enough to reach lying on top of Nona's body!
i will NEVER forget seeing that card! there is NO question in my mind where it was located. it was on top of 2 other cards as i recall. that is how much it stood out to me. i even remember a little bear on the front.
it was bone-chilling!
jealous, crazed bf's typically snoop and spy. it almost made me physically ill seeing that KJ had apparently snooped one last time to see who Nona's card was from while she lay there dead on the floor.
and don't give me this mess about looking for Nona's address inside a greeting card. excuses excuses! can you really keep excusing his actions?

[sololobo]

WRONG! the card was very plainly on the coffee table. how far was that coffee table? i don't think close enough to reach lying on top of Nona's body!
i will NEVER forget seeing that card! there is NO question in my mind where it was located. it was on top of 2 other cards as i recall. that is how much it stood out to me. i even remember a little bear on the front.
it was bone-chilling!
jealous, crazed bf's typically snoop and spy. it almost made me physically ill seeing that KJ had apparently snooped one last time to see who Nona's card was from while she lay there dead on the floor.
and don't give me this mess about looking for Nona's address inside a greeting card. excuses excuses! can you really keep excusing his actions?

The card was on the floor beside Nona's body and Kevin picked it up and looked at it.

[christina]

The card was on the floor beside Nona's body and Kevin picked it up and looked at it.

As was stated before and proved out by the photos on the 48 Hours show, there was more than one card at the scene.
But this line of discussion is to what purpose?

[christina]

Were you there for the playing of the interview tape from the night of the murder? I am thinking you were.
What was your take on Jones' denials of touching anything?
I remember he was asked several times by at least three different officers over the course of the interview.

[guppie]

As was stated before and proved out by the photos on the 48 Hours show, there was more than one card at the scene.
But this line of discussion is to what purpose?

ok, the "card with KJ's fingerprints in Nona's blood" were on the card lying on the table.
purpose IMO:
i will NEVER forget seeing that card! ...
it was bone-chilling!
jealous, crazed bf's typically snoop and spy. it almost made me physically ill seeing that KJ had apparently snooped one last time to see who Nona's card was from while she lay there dead on the floor.

obviously, Solo is going to believe KJ's word (or JJ's word) instead of the photo of where the card was. just like some believe KJ looked inside a greeting card to find an address. you're right, C. it is a waste of time discussing the obvious.

[sololobo]

As was stated before and proved out by the photos on the 48 Hours show, there was more than one card at the scene.
But this line of discussion is to what purpose?

ok, the "card with KJ's fingerprints in Nona's blood" were on the card lying on the table.
purpose IMO:
i will NEVER forget seeing that card! ...
it was bone-chilling!
jealous, crazed bf's typically snoop and spy. it almost made me physically ill seeing that KJ had apparently snooped one last time to see who Nona's card was from while she lay there dead on the floor.

obviously, Solo is going to believe KJ's word (or JJ's word) instead of the photo of where the card was. just like some believe KJ looked inside a greeting card to find an address. you're right, C. it is a waste of time discussing the obvious.

I'll go along with the prosecution on this.

"Prosecutors also pointed out that witnesses, including Jones in a taped interview with police the night Dirksmeyer’s body was found, said Jones never touched anything in the apartment at the time her body was discovered except Dirksmeyer’s body and a greeting card laying on the floor next to her." Arkansas Democrat Gazette, NWAE

http://www.nwarktimes.com/adg/News/196134/print/

The crime scene photos were taken after discovery of the body. Where was the card when Kevin picked it up? It was on the floor beside the body. Perhaps Kevin put it on the table or a policeman put it on the table if it is the same card. The card that was allegedly the only thing Kevin touched was on the floor beside Nona's body.

[christina]

As was stated before and proved out by the photos on the 48 Hours show, there was more than one card at the scene.
But this line of discussion is to what purpose?

ok, the "card with KJ's fingerprints in Nona's blood" were on the card lying on the table.
purpose IMO:
i will NEVER forget seeing that card! ...
it was bone-chilling!
jealous, crazed bf's typically snoop and spy. it almost made me physically ill seeing that KJ had apparently snooped one last time to see who Nona's card was from while she lay there dead on the floor.

obviously, Solo is going to believe KJ's word (or JJ's word) instead of the photo of where the card was. just like some believe KJ looked inside a greeting card to find an address. you're right, C. it is a waste of time discussing the obvious.

I respect how the sight of blood on a card raises such strong emotions in you, considering the past boyfriend experiences you have shared with the board.

[jeremiads]

Wow. I haven't been around in a while because it stopped sending me notifications that the thread was updated. For anybody new, I'm the "JM" that gets referenced from time to time.

By the way, I bet that person who was blurred out in the 48 Hours show is incredibly annoyed that no one ever contacted him about using that footage. :mad:

[christina]

Wow. I haven't been around in a while because it stopped sending me notifications that the thread was updated. For anybody new, I'm the "JM" that gets referenced from time to time.

By the way, I bet that person who was blurred out in the 48 Hours show is incredibly annoyed that no one ever contacted him about using that footage. :mad:

Thanks for joining back in. So that wasn't you in the footage. I wondered.
Can you explain from your knowledge of Nona's apartment, if it would have been possible for someone to break in the front door?

[sololobo]

Wow. I haven't been around in a while because it stopped sending me notifications that the thread was updated. For anybody new, I'm the "JM" that gets referenced from time to time.

By the way, I bet that person who was blurred out in the 48 Hours show is incredibly annoyed that no one ever contacted him about using that footage. :mad:

Welcome back, Jeremy:) And how do you know the blurred person was not contacted?:) Was that you? JK:)

[jeremiads]

Thanks for joining back in. So that wasn't you in the footage. I wondered.I thought my sarcasm would be more apparent, but I suppose not.
Can you explain from your knowledge of Nona's apartment, if it would have been possible for someone to break in the front door?No clue. I had only been to that particular apartment twice that I can remember. I was more familiar with her previous apartment.

[LurkerNoMore]

Thanks for joining back in. So that wasn't you in the footage. I wondered.
Can you explain from your knowledge of Nona's apartment, if it would have been possible for someone to break in the front door?

I took that differently, Christina - as sarcasm - that no one got his permission to use the footage of his interview - please correct me if I'm wrong J.

Am I right in remembering or assuming the "leak" of that interview and the related material came from someone on the side of the prosecution/police? I think I just assumed that based on what Gibbons told the Courier, but not sure.

[jeremiads]

Am I right in remembering or assuming the "leak" of that interview and the related material came from someone on the side of the prosecution/police? I think I just assumed that based on what Gibbons told the Courier, but not sure.I've yet to hear anything concrete about it one way or another. I would love to know, though.

[TJEddie]

Didn't Kenneth Johnson claim that interview footage was not provided to the defense through discovery?

[jeremiads]

Didn't Kenneth Johnson claim that interview footage was not provided to the defense through discovery?As far as I know, interview footage of myself was never handed over during discovery. After that, I have no idea. 48 Hours had to get it from somewhere.

[christina]

I thought my sarcasm would be more apparent, but I suppose not.
No clue. I had only been to that particular apartment twice that I can remember. I was more familiar with her previous apartment.

Thanks for answering.

I did not get the sarcasm, sorry.

[christina]

I took that differently, Christina - as sarcasm - that no one got his permission to use the footage of his interview - please correct me if I'm wrong J.

Am I right in remembering or assuming the "leak" of that interview and the related material came from someone on the side of the prosecution/police? I think I just assumed that based on what Gibbons told the Courier, but not sure.

The deputy prosecutor said he gave 48 Hours the interview footage. I took that to mean all taped footage. Do you all think it was meant as just part of the video footage?

[christina]

As far as I know, interview footage of myself was never handed over during discovery. After that, I have no idea. 48 Hours had to get it from somewhere.

So you were only interviewed by RPD, not the prosecution or defense?

[upallnight]

As was stated before and proved out by the photos on the 48 Hours show, there was more than one card at the scene.
But this line of discussion is to what purpose?

Christina, just a thought. I wonder if suspects that was brought in and questioned by the RPD. Do you think if any of them was drinking like say water at the RPD while being questioned, could the RPD keep that cup or whatever the drink was in to run a DNA test on it at a later time if warranted to. If so I wonder what chain of custody would be at demand in such a proceedure, would they have to use a chain of custody form, would the person they had this DNA on have to sign such a form? You know what I mean? Or, would it be enough if the questioning was on tape and shows this person used said drinking cup or whatever they may have DNA on that was used during a taped questioning. Problem may be if not chain of custody and signed by a person tagged as that specific item was used by him/her, maybe many of the same kind of cup or etc., was used by other people being questioned. Could hair RPD have a like hair or something else found that belongs to someone that was questioned at the RPD? Just wondering if RPD has something in this line, could it be used to possibly link such a person to the DNA that was found on the condom wrapper? If so I would think they need more to prove the owner of the DNA was actually at Nona's that day etc., Also, maybe, just maybe any clothing or other items kept for evidence of the case, if gone over again with a per say fine tooth comb, it is very likely something could be found on one or more of these items. I watched one program where a suspect was questioned and they could not get enough evidence to charge him. Then the investigation turned towards someone else that did not pan out. Years later, like 10 I think they had a bottle that they swabbed for DNA, this DNA matched something the killer had inserted into one of the girls vagina. Bam, a match (sperm) from the inserted item to the drinking bottle. Yet, this murder had time sheets that was looked at early in the investigation and the investigaters learned early he always seemed available during the murders. The key point to me in this came when they went back over the clothing of one of the girls and found very small particles of paint. The killer spray painted trucks for a living. No one else that was suspect did anything that would leave such evidence. So, they then had a DNA match and the paint from the clothing found at the crime scene. The difference of course, major difference is they never charged the original suspect. Even with the DNA from the inserted item from one of the girls that match DNA on the bottle, that was not enough-it was the spray paint that tied it all together. This suspect and some of the public (on the Green River Killer I believe it was) felt picked on to say, and some of the public shared the same view, until it was proven he did indeed kill these girls. I know Nona's case it different, just trying to sort it all out and wonder if this new investigation could possibly prove more evidence than found the first time, be it against someone other than Kevin or against Kevin himself? I really am trying to be open minded and I guess your earlier question on what would it take to lean to someone else, such evidence above is a good example. At this point in the televised case there was no doubt in my mind they had the right person with all the evidence tied together. I am not saying RPD did everything I felt should have been done. I am just saying I think they followed the evidence they had. The I am glad this Nona's case is being investigated again no matter what the outcome, ya know what I mean?
The sad thing is, if this new investigation proves that Kevin is the true killer, nothing can be done and Justice For Nona will never be served. If it proves another person killed Nona, Justice For Nona has a very good chance to be served unless the jury see's it differently based on evidence and the Pros./Def team/ and how it all plays out in court. The main thing that will never leave me is seeing Nona on that floor and knowing the torture she lived through and died as a result of, you know what I mean because you was in court and saw it testified to. This is why I can only say to you that I only want Justice For Nona and I may as well as you have a change of opinion based on any new evidence if any. I think we all want to know what is going on with this new investigation, but I do believe what ever it is and with what ever time it takes could make or break this case or then again maybe there is nothing else that was found to prove probable cause towards another person. That seems to be the reality of it all to me with what is being done right now. I know you know what I mean, with all opinions on this board the evidence is what cases are built on, so we wait again, we have moments of frustration, moments of sleeplessness, the tears we have shed seeing the pictures of Nona in court and hearing JJ on the 911 tape, and much more that anyone with compassion and the love and respect for human life feels. On top of that the killer is still out there, our children are in schools, living their lives around town and we are afraid, we are angry because we have a reason to be. One thing we can all say, this girl deserves Justice along with her family and that is what we all strive for.
Put it all together and I don't think we are attacking each other, we are simply trying to sort it all out and that is a good thing because Nona is gone but not forgotten. It is in her honor that we do this above all because all. Thank for listening, guess maybe I am in the frustrated state more today after spending time last night, again, thinking of this young life taken and by the hands of such a horrible, dispicable, evil person to say the least.

[christina]

Christina, just a thought. I wonder if suspects that was brought in and questioned by the RPD. Do you think if any of them was drinking like say water at the RPD while being questioned, could the RPD keep that cup or whatever the drink was in to run a DNA test on it at a later time if warranted to. If so I wonder what chain of custody would be at demand in such a proceedure, would they have to use a chain of custody form, would the person they had this DNA on have to sign such a form? You know what I mean? Or, would it be enough if the questioning was on tape and shows this person used said drinking cup or whatever they may have DNA on that was used during a taped questioning. Problem may be if not chain of custody and signed by a person tagged as that specific item was used by him/her, maybe many of the same kind of cup or etc., was used by other people being questioned. Could hair RPD have a like hair or something else found that belongs to someone that was questioned at the RPD? Just wondering if RPD has something in this line, could it be used to possibly link such a person to the DNA that was found on the condom wrapper? If so I would think they need more to prove the owner of the DNA was actually at Nona's that day etc., Also, maybe, just maybe any clothing or other items kept for evidence of the case, if gone over again with a per say fine tooth comb, it is very likely something could be found on one or more of these items. I watched one program where a suspect was questioned and they could not get enough evidence to charge him. Then the investigation turned towards someone else that did not pan out. Years later, like 10 I think they had a bottle that they swabbed for DNA, this DNA matched something the killer had inserted into one of the girls vagina. Bam, a match (sperm) from the inserted item to the drinking bottle. Yet, this murder had time sheets that was looked at early in the investigation and the investigaters learned early he always seemed available during the murders. The key point to me in this came when they went back over the clothing of one of the girls and found very small particles of paint. The killer spray painted trucks for a living. No one else that was suspect did anything that would leave such evidence. So, they then had a DNA match and the paint from the clothing found at the crime scene. The difference of course, major difference is they never charged the original suspect. Even with the DNA from the inserted item from one of the girls that match DNA on the bottle, that was not enough-it was the spray paint that tied it all together. This suspect and some of the public (on the Green River Killer I believe it was) felt picked on to say, and some of the public shared the same view, until it was proven he did indeed kill these girls. I know Nona's case it different, just trying to sort it all out and wonder if this new investigation could possibly prove more evidence than found the first time, be it against someone other than Kevin or against Kevin himself? I really am trying to be open minded and I guess your earlier question on what would it take to lean to someone else, such evidence above is a good example. At this point in the televised case there was no doubt in my mind they had the right person with all the evidence tied together. I am not saying RPD did everything I felt should have been done. I am just saying I think they followed the evidence they had. The I am glad this Nona's case is being investigated again no matter what the outcome, ya know what I mean?
The sad thing is, if this new investigation proves that Kevin is the true killer, nothing can be done and Justice For Nona will never be served. If it proves another person killed Nona, Justice For Nona has a very good chance to be served unless the jury see's it differently based on evidence and the Pros./Def team/ and how it all plays out in court. The main thing that will never leave me is seeing Nona on that floor and knowing the torture she lived through and died as a result of, you know what I mean because you was in court and saw it testified to. This is why I can only say to you that I only want Justice For Nona and I may as well as you have a change of opinion based on any new evidence if any. I think we all want to know what is going on with this new investigation, but I do believe what ever it is and with what ever time it takes could make or break this case or then again maybe there is nothing else that was found to prove probable cause towards another person. That seems to be the reality of it all to me with what is being done right now. I know you know what I mean, with all opinions on this board the evidence is what cases are built on, so we wait again, we have moments of frustration, moments of sleeplessness, the tears we have shed seeing the pictures of Nona in court and hearing JJ on the 911 tape, and much more that anyone with compassion and the love and respect for human life feels. On top of that the killer is still out there, our children are in schools, living their lives around town and we are afraid, we are angry because we have a reason to be. One thing we can all say, this girl deserves Justice along with her family and that is what we all strive for.
Put it all together and I don't think we are attacking each other, we are simply trying to sort it all out and that is a good thing because Nona is gone but not forgotten. It is in her honor that we do this above all because all. Thank for listening, guess maybe I am in the frustrated state more today after spending time last night, again, thinking of this young life taken and by the hands of such a horrible, dispicable, evil person to say the least.

Wow, you have a mind that thinks through all this stuff well-either that or you watch a lot of crime tv show/read those books! Either way, I am impressed.
Chain of custody is important I would think. I do not know much about it but will ask around. Anyone else? I have seen the shows where they offer a suspect a drink then take their prints or dna off of the can/cup. It will be interesting to hear who and how they got the dna of owner of the condom wrapper. And I agree, they will need to prove more about that "viable suspect" than just that his condom wrapper was at the crime scene.
I remember it being said only two people "offered" their dna, Jones being one. Does anyone know/remember who the other was?

Like you, I was upset again thinking of the possiblity that she laid there dieing for up to 30 minutes. It is a despicable crime, and seeing her murderer caught and convicted would help many.

[jeremiads]

So you were only interviewed by RPD, not the prosecution or defense?Just the RPD. The defense never bothered trying to contact me until a week or so before the trial, which I of course took notes of because of the content of that phone call and immediately turned that over to the investigators so they and the prosecution would have it.

[jonikay]

Were you there for the playing of the interview tape from the night of the murder? I am thinking you were.
What was your take on Jones' denials of touching anything?
I remember he was asked several times by at least three different officers over the course of the interview.
I was there. Here's my take . . . he said he didn't touch anything, but I don't think he ever seemed sure of whether or not he did. I could see that his mind was going every which way. I'm thinking maybe he thought they were asking him if he touched anything of real importance to the investigation. But, he didn't say, in answering the question that he touched Nona's body, even though he stated it previously. He was confused and scared and bloody. In listening to the 911 tapes and after thinking on it awhile, I don't think that him touching the greeting card was part of a plot or a trigger, etc. Wait . . . we have discussed this before, but didn't he say that the greeting card was kind of on top of her head? Maybe during a struggle, the greeting card fell off the table. I know we have discussed the placement of the greeting card before.

[upallnight]

Wow. I haven't been around in a while because it stopped sending me notifications that the thread was updated. For anybody new, I'm the "JM" that gets referenced from time to time.

By the way, I bet that person who was blurred out in the 48 Hours show is incredibly annoyed that no one ever contacted him about using that footage. :mad:

Hi JM, Do you have any idea who that person is? Just wondering.

[upallnight]

I thought my sarcasm would be more apparent, but I suppose not.
No clue. I had only been to that particular apartment twice that I can remember. I was more familiar with her previous apartment.

Oh, sorry-I see your answer here.

[lorettalockhorn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by christina
Sorry, your sources aren't as knowledgable as mine. And I see you did not name yours either.
I am very comfortable believing that it is true as it was viewed as something that helped the prosecution's case and my law enforcement friend continues to try to get me to see Jones did it.

And, BTW, its not a game to me. As I stated before, as a resident of this community and having a family member attending ATU, I want the truth and this case solved.

__________________



Great find. I don't remember this exchange and then I noticed the date lol! Kinda busy right then. I'm glad that Christina acknowledges that the call was only ONE reason LE suspected jealousy as a motive. This is so true, whether or not this call was made is not all that significant from that perspective. There is plenty to suggest that motive. . . I just wish it would have been presented better during the trial. Round two? We'll have to wait and see.

When I get a chance I am going to find out about the phone call, I encourage others to do the same. Christina, I'd like to call your source if you don't mind sending me the info via PM (I doubt you will oblige me but it doesn't hurt to ask). :)

This exchange is important to me because it represents one of the four or so times that Chrristina blew her credibility.

Busy huh? When are you not?! :seeya:

[jonikay]

We were told the card was a greeting card from Nona's mother to her. It was found on the floor.
Janice Jones testified and we heard her on the 911 tape, she looked for something with an address on it for the purpose of telling the 911 operator. She found mail, specifically a bank statement, on a table somewhere. The address on it was the Dipert's address on Skyline.
bumpitty bump--there are plenty more

[lorettalockhorn]

I took that differently, Christina - as sarcasm - that no one got his permission to use the footage of his interview - please correct me if I'm wrong J.

Am I right in remembering or assuming the "leak" of that interview and the related material came from someone on the side of the prosecution/police? I think I just assumed that based on what Gibbons told the Courier, but not sure.

From The Courier, 2/13/08:

On Tuesday, Jeff Phillips, a deputy prosecutor for the 5th Judicial District, confirmed he released a portion of a video recording showing police interviewing Jones on the night of Dirksmeyer’s Dec. 15, 2005 murder to CBS.

http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=17653&Search=nona%20dirksmeyer

[lorettalockhorn]

>>I wonder if suspects that was brought in and questioned by the RPD. Do you think if any of them was drinking like say water at the RPD while being questioned, could the RPD keep that cup or whatever the drink was in to run a DNA test on it at a later time if warranted to.

My understanding is that evidence can be used if the source is discarded; otherwise it is known as fruit of the poisoned tree and is inadmissable. It's hard to imagine in this day and age that if a suspect drank from a cup or smoked during questioning that (s)he wouldn't take the cup or butt with him.

[jeremiads]

From The Courier, 2/13/08:

On Tuesday, Jeff Phillips, a deputy prosecutor for the 5th Judicial District, confirmed he released a portion of a video recording showing police interviewing Jones on the night of Dirksmeyer’s Dec. 15, 2005 murder to CBS.

http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=17653&Search=nona%20dirksmeyerWell, that leaves the rest of it up in the air, then.

[jeremiads]

>>I wonder if suspects that was brought in and questioned by the RPD. Do you think if any of them was drinking like say water at the RPD while being questioned, could the RPD keep that cup or whatever the drink was in to run a DNA test on it at a later time if warranted to.

My understanding is that evidence can be used if the source is discarded; otherwise it is known as fruit of the poisoned tree and is inadmissable. It's hard to imagine in this day and age that if a suspect drank from a cup or smoked during questioning that (s)he wouldn't take the cup or butt with him.From what I know, most people who are asked willingly give DNA samples just to help the investigation. It's what I did. I'm sure some are less willing than others.

[lorettalockhorn]

Well, that leaves the rest of it up in the air, then.

Yes, oh yes it does.

From what I know, most people who are asked willingly give DNA samples just to help the investigation. It's what I did. I'm sure some are less willing than others.

So what was the defense talking about here?

NNOOOOOO! Defense stated that NO ONE else was tested for dna except for suspect numero uno. This means that the dna on the condom wrapper had to match to someone they either 1) brought in or 2) had in their system. Also, I don't know the guidelines on the defense bringing an outside person in for testing. I would possibly naively assume that they can't do that. Maybe the special prosecutor was brought in to call people for dna samples. Please tell me what is confusing you.

[upallnight]

>>I wonder if suspects that was brought in and questioned by the RPD. Do you think if any of them was drinking like say water at the RPD while being questioned, could the RPD keep that cup or whatever the drink was in to run a DNA test on it at a later time if warranted to.

My understanding is that evidence can be used if the source is discarded; otherwise it is known as fruit of the poisoned tree and is inadmissable. It's hard to imagine in this day and age that if a suspect drank from a cup or smoked during questioning that (s)he wouldn't take the cup or butt with him.

I see what you are saying, thanks!

[jeremiads]

Yes, oh yes it does.Well, it bugs the hell out of me.

So what was the defense talking about here?Well, I didn't speak for when they were collecting DNA samples from other people because I don't know the timeline on that.

[jeremiads]

Clear out that inbox, Loretta. :)

[guppie]

Well, it bugs the hell out of me.

Well, I didn't speak for when they were collecting DNA samples from other people because I don't know the timeline on that.


so is there any estimate on how many people gave DNA samples after Nona died in relation to her case?

[jeremiads]

so is there any estimate on how many people gave DNA samples after Nona died in relation to her case?No idea. I imagine that, ideally, they would want samples from every person that had a finger pointed at them for even a second.

[christina]

This exchange is important to me because it represents one of the four or so times that Chrristina blew her credibility.

Busy huh? When are you not?! :seeya:

Interesting. Why do you assume I am wrong there and not Oxford?

I stand by my source, he is still employed as an officer locally and very credible.

[christina]

bumpitty bump--there are plenty more

Appreciate this. It sounds like your and my take on Jones and not touching anything is similar.
Don't remember the card being on her face, just close.

[hawgustusgloop]

Interesting. Why do you assume I am wrong there and not Oxford?

I stand by my source, he is still employed as an officer locally and very credible.

I can only speak for myself, but I have never known oxweb to be caught in a lie on this board.

[christina]

From The Courier, 2/13/08:

On Tuesday, Jeff Phillips, a deputy prosecutor for the 5th Judicial District, confirmed he released a portion of a video recording showing police interviewing Jones on the night of Dirksmeyer’s Dec. 15, 2005 murder to CBS.

http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=17653&Search=nona%20dirksmeyer

Got it, thanks.

[lorettalockhorn]

I can only speak for myself, but I have never known oxweb to be caught in a lie on this board.

Me neither. Not once.

[FDInLaw]

This exchange is important to me because it represents one of the four or so times that Chrristina blew her credibility.

Busy huh? When are you not?! :seeya: The jury is still out as far as Christina's credibility on this one. . . (JMO)

[sololobo]

From what I know, most people who are asked willingly give DNA samples just to help the investigation. It's what I did. I'm sure some are less willing than others.

"Robbins also declined a request to name the person to whom the DNA was matched. He said there was an individual who voluntarily provided a sample during Jones’ trial in July — but then added the DNA profile obtained from the condom wrapper was not matched to that person." Courier

http://www.couriernews.com/archivedstory.php?ID=17630

It appears you were the only one to give a sample.

[ifIwereU]

Interesting. Why do you assume I am wrong there and not Oxford?

I stand by my source, he is still employed as an officer locally and very credible.

will your "so-called" source stand by you
call him/her up and ask how many times Jones denied touching the lamp not "i don't know" not "i don't think so" flat out denials...in any of his statements

[lorettalockhorn]

OT: Does anyone know why the Joneses hired three attorneys? Do these three commonly work together? Don't the three handle cases separately? One or two attorneys wouldn't suffice? These particular three were necessary? Is there something about this case that necessitated the three attorneys' expertise?

[hawgustusgloop]

OT: Does anyone know why the Joneses hired three attorneys? Do these three commonly work together? Don't the three handle cases separately? One or two attorneys wouldn't suffice? These particular three were necessary? Is there something about this case that necessitated the three attorneys' expertise?

Great question. I wonder what the attorneys' areas of expertise were. Especially Bristow. I wonder why they added him? He don't come cheap. Or, maybe he just believed in the Kevinator so much he did it for free.

[Amy]

From what I know, most people who are asked willingly give DNA samples just to help the investigation. It's what I did. I'm sure some are less willing than others.

In other posts, it is said ONLY TWO "offered" their DNA. I think some understand this as that only two DNA's were tested. I take it as, not all "offered" as they had been asked and provided their specimen. Sometimes I think the pros or def word things kind of cagily, giving out information, but stating it in such a way that the listeners/readers can actually have more than one interpretation.

I have a "silver tongued" nephew who, when he tells you something, you THINK you heard what he say (which is what he WANTS you to "hear") and when you confront him about lying...he didn't REALLY lie, it was all in HOW he worded his response, and how we interpreted that response. (I think of most attorneys to be "silver tongued")

[christina]

"Robbins also declined a request to name the person to whom the DNA was matched. He said there was an individual who voluntarily provided a sample during Jones’ trial in July — but then added the DNA profile obtained from the condom wrapper was not matched to that person." Courier

http://www.couriernews.com/archivedstory.php?ID=17630

It appears you were the only one to give a sample.

Thanks for that quote

[christina]

will your "so-called" source stand by you
call him/her up and ask how many times Jones denied touching the lamp not "i don't know" not "i don't think so" flat out denials...in any of his statements

Have I said something to upset/offend you? Or am I mis-reading anger into the manner of the question?
Yes, the officer I asked and I are still friends. He to this day believes Jones' to be the murderer. Didn't need to ask him how many times as it was evident when the interview was shown at trial. Jones said it many times.

[christina]

In other posts, it is said ONLY TWO "offered" their DNA. I think some understand this as that only two DNA's were tested. I take it as, not all "offered" as they had been asked and provided their specimen. Sometimes I think the pros or def word things kind of cagily, giving out information, but stating it in such a way that the listeners/readers can actually have more than one interpretation.

I have a "silver tongued" nephew who, when he tells you something, you THINK you heard what he say (which is what he WANTS you to "hear") and when you confront him about lying...he didn't REALLY lie, it was all in HOW he worded his response, and how we interpreted that response. (I think of most attorneys to be "silver tongued")

Excellent thought.

[lorettalockhorn]

In other posts, it is said ONLY TWO "offered" their DNA. I think some understand this as that only two DNA's were tested. I take it as, not all "offered" as they had been asked and provided their specimen. Sometimes I think the pros or def word things kind of cagily, giving out information, but stating it in such a way that the listeners/readers can actually have more than one interpretation.

I have a "silver tongued" nephew who, when he tells you something, you THINK you heard what he say (which is what he WANTS you to "hear") and when you confront him about lying...he didn't REALLY lie, it was all in HOW he worded his response, and how we interpreted that response. (I think of most attorneys to be "silver tongued")

According to jonikay's courtroom observations, the defense also said only KJ had been tested:

NNOOOOOO! Defense stated that NO ONE else was tested for dna except for suspect numero uno. This means that the dna on the condom wrapper had to match to someone they either 1) brought in or 2) had in their system. Also, I don't know the guidelines on the defense bringing an outside person in for testing. I would possibly naively assume that they can't do that. Maybe the special prosecutor was brought in to call people for dna samples. Please tell me what is confusing you.

Does that mean the defense didn't know? Does that mean that the defense talks out both sides of the mouth? Robbins was obtuse when asked by The Courier about the leak of information to CBS; who knows, maybe all three of the defense attorneys aren't on the same page. Maybe they can only think on their feet while on the clock.

[ifIwereU]

Have I said something to upset/offend you? Or am I mis-reading anger into the manner of the question?
Yes, the officer I asked and I are still friends. He to this day believes Jones' to be the murderer. Didn't need to ask him how many times as it was evident when the interview was shown at trial. Jones said it many times.

I am not the "subiminal man" from SNL
don't know how you would have read "anger" from my post....sounds like a guilty conscieous to me, but I didn't mean anything by my post....I simply wanted to know the # of denials...one of my friends overheard a conversation between an RPD Det Hammer in which he indicated there were 22 denials in the second statement of jones (night of the visitaion)..if figured you could get that confirmed....with your friend.....might get you some rep points on the board...I also thought in some of your earlier posts you based or "guilt reconsideration" on the fact that he didn't remember or was uncertain of touching the lamp....

[jeremiads]

"Robbins also declined a request to name the person to whom the DNA was matched. He said there was an individual who voluntarily provided a sample during Jones’ trial in July — but then added the DNA profile obtained from the condom wrapper was not matched to that person." Courier

http://www.couriernews.com/archivedstory.php?ID=17630

It appears you were the only one to give a sample.That isn't referencing me. I just checked and I didn't give my DNA sample until October of 2007, after the trial. So, don't go checking for Courier reports on who gave what sample, since that's not exactly going to be public information.

[hawgustusgloop]

Sometimes I think the pros or def word things kind of cagily, giving out information, but stating it in such a way that the listeners/readers can actually have more than one interpretation.


Amen, sister. I thought a prime example of this was when the defense said there were unknown fingerprints on the "business end" of the lamp.....

[FDInLaw]

That isn't referencing me. I just checked and I didn't give my DNA sample until October of 2007, after the trial. So, don't go checking for Courier reports on who gave what sample, since that's not exactly going to be public information.Hi Jeremy! :seeya:

Gosh, with both JM and Bubba droppin' by, wouldn't it be something if Trey York popped in??? This is the place to be. :)

[Amy]

According to jonikay's courtroom observations, the defense also said only KJ had been tested:



Does that mean the defense didn't know? Does that mean that the defense talks out both sides of the mouth? Robbins was obtuse when asked by The Courier about the leak of information to CBS; who knows, maybe all three of the defense attorneys aren't on the same page. Maybe they can only think on their feet while on the clock.

Does that mean the defense was telling the truth?

And, why would LE take samples from other folk and not test? Why not just take samples from KJ only? And, if the DNA on the wrapper did not match KJ, and the other person who offered a sample, they had to have tested more than just KJ's. Otherwise, they wouldn't know the other sample didn't match.

[jonikay]

According to jonikay's courtroom observations, the defense also said only KJ had been tested:



Does that mean the defense didn't know? Does that mean that the defense talks out both sides of the mouth? Robbins was obtuse when asked by The Courier about the leak of information to CBS; who knows, maybe all three of the defense attorneys aren't on the same page. Maybe they can only think on their feet while on the clock.
The defense said during their opening statements that the state did not test anyone for dna except for kj. They 100% said that. Now, I wonder if people that have volunteered their dna are counted in this group or possibly the prosecution had a few samples from willing prospects and chose not to test them? I don't know. I completely agree with Amy in that the defense said a ton of things at the trial that . . . I guess I can't necessarily say lies, but smokescreens. Like concentrating on irrelevant details and stating things that were ridiculous, like when they told Trey he lied about the time he made calls to Nona only to be corrected by the prosecution as to the call log being on a different time zone or whatever makes it an hour earlier than the actual call was placed. But, because the defense called Trey a liar, loudly and more than once, and the prosecution gently corrected the time, the jurors ate.it.up. I knew after the first few days that kj would not be convicted. The prosecution let Nona down. And I'm sure they know that.

[jonikay]

Appreciate this. It sounds like your and my take on Jones and not touching anything is similar.
Don't remember the card being on her face, just close.
Our takes are similar. But I must say, perhaps KJ had more important things to think about than messing with a greeting card, like tainting the crime scene (ie, Nona) and (possibly) planting evidence. Just a thought. People that do not think he did it would analyze his actions differently than people that think he did do it. I understand everything you're saying though.

[hawgustusgloop]

The defense said during their opening statements that the state did not test anyone for dna except for kj. They 100% said that. Now, I wonder if people that have volunteered their dna are counted in this group or possibly the prosecution had a few samples from willing prospects and chose not to test them? I don't know. I completely agree with Amy in that the defense said a ton of things at the trial that . . . I guess I can't necessarily say lies, but smokescreens. Like concentrating on irrelevant details and stating things that were ridiculous, like when they told Trey he lied about the time he made calls to Nona only to be corrected by the prosecution as to the call log being on a different time zone or whatever makes it an hour earlier than the actual call was placed. But, because the defense called Trey a liar, loudly and more than once, and the prosecution gently corrected the time, the jurors ate.it.up. I knew after the first few days that kj would not be convicted. The prosecution let Nona down. And I'm sure they know that.

Didn't the defense also say, "you will hear from a jewelry store employee," or something to that effect, even though they didn't actually end up calling him?

[jeremiads]

Didn't the defense also say, "you will hear from a jewelry store employee," or something to that effect, even though they didn't actually end up calling him?Yes, that was when they listed out the witnesses to be called at the beginning of the trial. It was in a Courier article.

These are the same people who said during hearings (supposedly) that I was lying to the police, probably just so it would be repeated in the Courier for a fishing expedition, and you saw how much that turned up for them.

[jonikay]

Didn't the defense also say, "you will hear from a jewelry store employee," or something to that effect, even though they didn't actually end up calling him?
They said all sorts of things that never amounted to a hill of beans. It was very aggravating, to say the least. Just like the JM (haha) thing, they snowballed it and then it just melted. Smokescreen, smokescreen, smokescreen. They took advantage of the jury's weaknesses and they won.

[Amy]

Didn't the defense also say, "you will hear from a jewelry store employee," or something to that effect, even though they didn't actually end up calling him?


What were these people supposed to bring to the table? KJ looking @ rings, or KJ and Nona looking @ rings? To support the proposal tale?

And, speaking of that, now, usually doesn't a guy about to pop the question tell @ least ONE other person the exciting news? Like, maybe in the late night convo with his mother? Or a good buddy like RW? Funny that no one else mentioned that KJ was planning on proposing.

Which I guess brings me to something I need cleared up. Did KJ say that he was planning on proposing to Nona THAT NIGHT? Or, just that he was planning on proposing? TIA

[lorettalockhorn]

The defense said during their opening statements that the state did not test anyone for dna except for kj. They 100% said that. Now, I wonder if people that have volunteered their dna are counted in this group or possibly the prosecution had a few samples from willing prospects and chose not to test them? I don't know. I completely agree with Amy in that the defense said a ton of things at the trial that . . . I guess I can't necessarily say lies, but smokescreens. Like concentrating on irrelevant details and stating things that were ridiculous, like when they told Trey he lied about the time he made calls to Nona only to be corrected by the prosecution as to the call log being on a different time zone or whatever makes it an hour earlier than the actual call was placed. But, because the defense called Trey a liar, loudly and more than once, and the prosecution gently corrected the time, the jurors ate.it.up. I knew after the first few days that kj would not be convicted. The prosecution let Nona down. And I'm sure they know that.

Wasn't Phillips the State attorney who handled Trey York? I was surprised that he wasn't more zealous. When he defended Vega for killing his infant son, I remember The Courier catagorizing him as yelling (my word, it could have been shouting or something else) in the courtroom.

Do you think it would it have helped any if the prosecution hadn't been so low-key?

[lorettalockhorn]

What were these people supposed to bring to the table? KJ looking @ rings, or KJ and Nona looking @ rings? To support the proposal tale?

And, speaking of that, now, usually doesn't a guy about to pop the question tell @ least ONE other person the exciting news? Like, maybe in the late night convo with his mother? Or a good buddy like RW? Funny that no one else mentioned that KJ was planning on proposing.

Which I guess brings me to something I need cleared up. Did KJ say that he was planning on proposing to Nona THAT NIGHT? Or, just that he was planning on proposing? TIA

My understanding was that he told one of the officers that night that he was planning on proposing that night. Yet I don't believe that he ever actually produced a ring (nor have I ever read that he was asked if he had one.) I just cannot imagine a proposal that would have taken place late at night, after she had had a day of tests and dinner with her Little, and he would have been on a date with his mother. Romantic? Not so much.

[jonikay]

Wasn't Phillips the State attorney who handled Trey York? I was surprised that he wasn't more zealous. When he defended Vega for killing his infant son, I remember The Courier catagorizing him as yelling (my word, it could have been shouting or something else) in the courtroom.

Do you think it would it have helped any if the prosecution hadn't been so low-key?
Yes. I believed it would have helpe tremendously. Is Phillips the "shorty pros?" If so, he was definitely more zealous than Gibbons. It just didn't work, ya know?

[lorettalockhorn]

Sgt. Tracy Edgin, the second RPD officer to arrive on the scene on the night of Dirksmeyer’s murder, testified he observed officer Larry Beyette coming down the stairs of Dirksmeyer’s apartment when he entered, noting of Jones that “his face and his hands and his arms were covered in a red substance that I believe to be blood.” He waited with Jones in the area of the stairs for approximately 15 minutes while others secured the crime scene, according to his testimony, during which time Jones asked if Dirksmeyer was dead and told Edgin he planned to ask Dirksmeyer to marry him that night. Jones kicked and hit the wall with his fist at one point, Edgin testified, although he did stop when Edgin requested he do so.
He also testified Jones told him after receiving a text message from Dirksmeyer that morning, he tried to call her “later in the day” but “she would not answer.”

http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15414&Search=nona%20dirksmeyer

[lorettalockhorn]

Yes. I believed it would have helpe tremendously. Is Phillips the "shorty pros?" If so, he was definitely more zealous than Gibbons. It just didn't work, ya know?

LMAO Yes, he's the shorty pros. But he can probably bench press our combined weights! :hat:

[jonikay]

My understanding was that he told one of the officers that night that he was planning on proposing that night. Yet I don't believe that he ever actually produced a ring (nor have I ever read that he was asked if he had one.) I just cannot imagine a proposal that would have taken place late at night, after she had had a day of tests and dinner with her Little, and he would have been on a date with his mother. Romantic? Not so much.
Well, he was too busy on the night of the 14th whining to Nona and his mother about the test he failed to think about proposing . . . I believe he told Edgins that he was going to propose to her "this week" or "next week."

[jonikay]

LMAO Yes, he's the shorty pros. But he can probably bench press our combined weights! :hat:
HHAAAA!!! That is the serious truth. He's on a winning weight team. Doesn't look like it, but you KNOW he can pack a punch.

[jonikay]

Well, he was too busy on the night of the 14th whining to Nona and his mother about the test he failed to think about proposing . . . I believe he told Edgins that he was going to propose to her "this week" or "next week."
Of course, I'm not finding this in my notes now. I think it was either that night or that week. Either way, it pretty much amounts to the same thing. I couldn't find the reference in the Courier either.

[lorettalockhorn]

Of course, I'm not finding this in my notes now. I think it was either that night or that week. Either way, it pretty much amounts to the same thing. I couldn't find the reference in the Courier either.


I fixed the broken link in that last post, sorry:

Sgt. Tracy Edgin, the second RPD officer to arrive on the scene on the night of Dirksmeyer’s murder, testified he observed officer Larry Beyette coming down the stairs of Dirksmeyer’s apartment when he entered, noting of Jones that “his face and his hands and his arms were covered in a red substance that I believe to be blood.” He waited with Jones in the area of the stairs for approximately 15 minutes while others secured the crime scene, according to his testimony, during which time Jones asked if Dirksmeyer was dead and told Edgin he planned to ask Dirksmeyer to marry him that night. Jones kicked and hit the wall with his fist at one point, Edgin testified, although he did stop when Edgin requested he do so.
He also testified Jones told him after receiving a text message from Dirksmeyer that morning, he tried to call her “later in the day” but “she would not answer.”


http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15414&Search=nona%20dirksmeyer

[hawgustusgloop]

My understanding was that he told one of the officers that night that he was planning on proposing that night. Yet I don't believe that he ever actually produced a ring (nor have I ever read that he was asked if he had one.) I just cannot imagine a proposal that would have taken place late at night, after she had had a day of tests and dinner with her Little, and he would have been on a date with his mother. Romantic? Not so much.

And why that date when Christmas and Nona's birthday were just around the corner?

[Amy]

Sgt. Tracy Edgin, the second RPD officer to arrive on the scene on the night of Dirksmeyer’s murder, testified he observed officer Larry Beyette coming down the stairs of Dirksmeyer’s apartment when he entered, noting of Jones that “his face and his hands and his arms were covered in a red substance that I believe to be blood.” He waited with Jones in the area of the stairs for approximately 15 minutes while others secured the crime scene, according to his testimony, during which time Jones asked if Dirksmeyer was dead and told Edgin he planned to ask Dirksmeyer to marry him that night. Jones kicked and hit the wall with his fist at one point, Edgin testified, although he did stop when Edgin requested he do so.
He also testified Jones told him after receiving a text message from Dirksmeyer that morning, he tried to call her “later in the day” but “she would not answer.”

http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15414&Search=nona%20dirksmeyer


Thanks. I had tho't it was said, that night. But was confused because, one would think he woud have shown someone the ring, told more than just one officer (like, his mom, RW) what he had planned. I would just think he would have been crying about that.

Or, even, as he is lying on her, attempting to resuscitate her, that he would be saying something, in his shock. Blurting out, OMG I was going to ask you to marry me, now I won't get to type of thing. (I'm having trouble putting this very well.)

And, of course, WHEN? After his mom's Christmas party? Wonder how late that was to have gone on. I could see him stopping there after the party, and spontaneously propose. But, if one is PLANNING on proposing on a certain date, you'd sure think he would have taken her to dinner, or planned a cozy evening together, not spend the evening with his mom and then propose later.

Which brings me to--why he was so worried about her whereabouts until closer to the time he was planning on going over. It didn't matter whether or not she was home while he was at the party, he wasn't planning on seeing her til later, anyway, it seems.

[sololobo]

That isn't referencing me. I just checked and I didn't give my DNA sample until October of 2007, after the trial. So, don't go checking for Courier reports on who gave what sample, since that's not exactly going to be public information.

Well, it looks like we don't know how many samples there are. In opening statements, the defense said only Kevin's DNA was tested before the trial. The statement from the Courier said only one other person gave a sample during the trial. You gave a sample after the trial. How many more gave samples after the trial?

Was the defense or the prosecution getting and testing these new samples?

[sololobo]

Interesting. Why do you assume I am wrong there and not Oxford?

I stand by my source, he is still employed as an officer locally and very credible.

Your credibility is not in question by anyone I know who reads this board. On the contrary, you are highly respected by them. I believe this is more a case of "if you can't discredit the message, discredit the messenger".

[jeremiads]

How many more gave samples after the trial?I wouldn't know.

Was the defense or the prosecution getting and testing these new samples?Well, considering that there's not a chance in hell I'd have anything to do with the defense team...

[christina]

I am not the "subiminal man" from SNL
don't know how you would have read "anger" from my post....sounds like a guilty conscieous to me, but I didn't mean anything by my post....I simply wanted to know the # of denials...one of my friends overheard a conversation between an RPD Det Hammer in which he indicated there were 22 denials in the second statement of jones (night of the visitaion)..if figured you could get that confirmed....with your friend.....might get you some rep points on the board...I also thought in some of your earlier posts you based or "guilt reconsideration" on the fact that he didn't remember or was uncertain of touching the lamp....

Subliminal man is a funny skit. I was referring to this quote specifically "will your "so-called" source stand by you" I see the words "so-called" and in quotations as sarcasm, meaning a disbelief. But thanks for explaining you meant nothing by it.
No guilty conscience on my part.
Det. Hemmer was at the trial and was going to be called as a witness but I don't remember that he was, do you?

[christina]

The defense said during their opening statements that the state did not test anyone for dna except for kj. They 100% said that. Now, I wonder if people that have volunteered their dna are counted in this group or possibly the prosecution had a few samples from willing prospects and chose not to test them? I don't know. I completely agree with Amy in that the defense said a ton of things at the trial that . . . I guess I can't necessarily say lies, but smokescreens. Like concentrating on irrelevant details and stating things that were ridiculous, like when they told Trey he lied about the time he made calls to Nona only to be corrected by the prosecution as to the call log being on a different time zone or whatever makes it an hour earlier than the actual call was placed. But, because the defense called Trey a liar, loudly and more than once, and the prosecution gently corrected the time, the jurors ate.it.up. I knew after the first few days that kj would not be convicted. The prosecution let Nona down. And I'm sure they know that.

Did you get the feel the prosecution adjusted their plan of action as the trial went along? There were witnesses lined in the hallway during the first two/three days that were never called.

[christina]

Yes. I believed it would have helpe tremendously. Is Phillips the "shorty pros?" If so, he was definitely more zealous than Gibbons. It just didn't work, ya know?

I agree, Phillips was definitely more passionate in his cross examinations. I wondered if they were doing the good cop, bad cop thing. Ultimately though, they could only work with what they were handed by investigators.
Gibbons closing arguements were good though. Except that he changed motive.

[christina]

I wouldn't know.

Well, considering that there's not a chance in hell I'd have anything to do with the defense team...

So the prosecution asked you to give a dna sample in October of last year?
Did they give you a reason?

[guppie]

wow, did it reach 10,000 posts for Nona while i was away? it's great there is still so much interest in her case.

[guppie]

OT: Does anyone know why the Joneses hired three attorneys? Do these three commonly work together? Don't the three handle cases separately? One or two attorneys wouldn't suffice? These particular three were necessary? Is there something about this case that necessitated the three attorneys' expertise?

sorry, i'm running behind. if KJ fans would only look at the reasoning for hiring such a team! our legal system gets manipulated when accused murderers buy the best defense attorneys. look at OJ. does anyone really think someone accused of murder with that evidence would have gotten off with just one $250/hr attorney? palease. IMO if you wanna get away with murder, you have to be able to buy your freedom via "dream teams." seems to work, huh?

[lorettalockhorn]

Your credibility is not in question by anyone I know who reads this board. On the contrary, you are highly respected by them. I believe this is more a case of "if you can't discredit the message, discredit the messenger".

Yes, I'm afraid it is. For four or five very different reasons. I realize that with the comings and goings that it's possible that these instances were not noticed by everyone. Credibility is very important and can be just as easily lost as it was earned.

When people lie and mislead and are caught, they should own it, rather than deny it. Especially when the messages are in writing. There is at least one other poster facing the same credibility issues. If there is a single thing that evokes sympathy for the Joneses, this issue is it.

Of course, you may be speaking literally about "anyone you know who reads this board".

[jeremiads]

Did you get the feel the prosecution adjusted their plan of action as the trial went along? There were witnesses lined in the hallway during the first two/three days that were never called.Did you get the feel the defense adjusted their plan of action as the trial went along? I was treated like I was going to be called by them since day one up until the trial, and you know how that worked out.

[guppie]

The defense said during their opening statements that the state did not test anyone for dna except for kj. They 100% said that. Now, I wonder if people that have volunteered their dna are counted in this group or possibly the prosecution had a few samples from willing prospects and chose not to test them? I don't know. I completely agree with Amy in that the defense said a ton of things at the trial that . . . I guess I can't necessarily say lies, but smokescreens. Like concentrating on irrelevant details and stating things that were ridiculous, like when they told Trey he lied about the time he made calls to Nona only to be corrected by the prosecution as to the call log being on a different time zone or whatever makes it an hour earlier than the actual call was placed. But, because the defense called Trey a liar, loudly and more than once, and the prosecution gently corrected the time, the jurors ate.it.up. I knew after the first few days that kj would not be convicted. The prosecution let Nona down. And I'm sure they know that.

that may be a little harsh. let's see. what do you think the yearly income of the prosecutor is in comparison to what those defense attorneys make??? my bet is those defense attorneys make many times more money. IMO it isn't so much that the prosecution let Nona down as it is that the dream team were masters of manipulation. unfortunately, our legal system favors the wealthy. maybe if every case required govt-employed attorneys on BOTH sides, it would be more fair and just?

[guppie]

Well, he was too busy on the night of the 14th whining to Nona and his mother about the test he failed to think about proposing . . . I believe he told Edgins that he was going to propose to her "this week" or "next week."


was that in testimony? it goes to my theory that KJ was off "under-achieving" at big, SEC, much more partying school while Nona was at home over-achieving and becoming poised and beautiful enough to compete in Miss AR. she was also applying herself in areas of community service. to me, she was clearly getting more and more out of KJ's league.

proposals normally come with a ring that has been purchased, do they not? looks like KJ never produced that. that whole "proposal" comment suggests to me KJ was expecting Nona to sit at home with her legs crossed and studying while he partied it up and slept with whomever he hooked up with at UA? nice

[guppie]

You know Hawg, I have done my mea culpas for that one infraction of making my relationship with the family different than it really was. It was stupid, I am sorry.
But for goodness sake- I have hung on here through all kinds of crap-why? Because I am as interested in justice for Nona as you are. We may believe differently but our goal is the same. This is my town, my kid's town, it concerns me to have a murderer free.
I have given what information I have/get freely and I believe all other things I have shared have been accurate.
So please-lay off this "consider the source" crap!
Sorry to be so testy. Its been a bad several days for me, I need a hot bath, glass of wine and someone to answer the phone for me.

i know there is talk that you have "lied" on here, and i took this post to be an admittance and accountability for "one infraction." i appreciate that, and i personally don't feel that one thing should discredit you across the board. are you saying this is your only lie in this thread?

[jonikay]

that may be a little harsh. let's see. what do you think the yearly income of the prosecutor is in comparison to what those defense attorneys make??? my bet is those defense attorneys make many times more money. IMO it isn't so much that the prosecution let Nona down as it is that the dream team were masters of manipulation. unfortunately, our legal system favors the wealthy. maybe if every case required govt-employed attorneys on BOTH sides, it would be more fair and just?
Well guppie, that is my opinion. I witness most of the prosecution's statements first-hand at the trial. They let her down. christina or anyone else at the trial, what do you think about this?

[jonikay]

was that in testimony? it goes to my theory that KJ was off "under-achieving" at big, SEC, much more partying school while Nona was at home over-achieving and becoming poised and beautiful enough to compete in Miss AR. she was also applying herself in areas of community service. to me, she was clearly getting more and more out of KJ's league.

proposals normally come with a ring that has been purchased, do they not? looks like KJ never produced that. that whole "proposal" comment suggests to me KJ was expecting Nona to sit at home with her legs crossed and studying while he partied it up and slept with whomever he hooked up with at UA? nice
Yes. He thought he failed a test. He and Nona talked about it and he and his mother talked about it. Otherwise, I wouldn't have known about it.

[jonikay]

Did you get the feel the prosecution adjusted their plan of action as the trial went along? There were witnesses lined in the hallway during the first two/three days that were never called.
I feel that both the prosecution and the defense adjusted their plan of action as the trial went along that that hallway was filled with witnesses from both sides. I figure most cases go this way to an extent because both sides respond to what the other side says. So to answer your question, "yes."

[Amy]

sorry, i'm running behind. if KJ fans would only look at the reasoning for hiring such a team! our legal system gets manipulated when accused murderers buy the best defense attorneys. look at OJ. does anyone really think someone accused of murder with that evidence would have gotten off with just one $250/hr attorney? palease. IMO if you wanna get away with murder, you have to be able to buy your freedom via "dream teams." seems to work, huh?


I got the impression from those attending and reporting in the trial that it was more prosecution presentation and/or inadequate? police investigation than high dollar defense attorneys that lost the case for the State. IMO

[guppie]

post from crime scene analysis:

Any item out of place should be considered in a crime scene analysis. Let's add the following:

Overturned table lamp
Liquid substance on table
Candle on the floor
Greeting card on floor by body
Thermostat on/off switch
Location of green sweater
Location of Nona's shoes

Also of interest is the crack in the door jamb.

Each of the above and the ones previously mentioned have a story to tell which may or may not be relevant to the murder. The relevant ones should be inter-related and will help weave a tapesty of what occurred there that day.


if you look with your own two eyes, you see that the card with KJ's fingerprints in Nona's blood was on the table away from Nona's body (see photo). are you seriously trying to make us believe that KJ picked it up from the floor and walked it over to the table? come on. if he picked it up off the floor as you say, then it makes sense that he would have set it back down there. KJ, RW, and JJ were the ones there, and i don't find them at all believable.
so why are you so insistent that card was on the floor? maybe because you see how freakishly jealous and controlling it appears on KJ's part? well, at least it seems we must agree on one thing...that card is a REALLY compelling piece of evidence. if you didn't think so, you wouldn't keep insisting it was in a place other than where it was.

[christina]

Did you get the feel the defense adjusted their plan of action as the trial went along? I was treated like I was going to be called by them since day one up until the trial, and you know how that worked out.

Yes, I do think the defense adjusted there plan of action. But you stated your disdain for them and support of the prosectuion, so I was asking for your observation of them.

[christina]

i know there is talk that you have "lied" on here, and i took this post to be an admittance and accountability for "one infraction." i appreciate that, and i personally don't feel that one thing should discredit you across the board. are you saying this is your only lie in this thread?

I posted this on the 28th, don't know if you missed it.
"You know Hawg, I have done my mea culpas for that one infraction of making my relationship with the family different than it really was. It was stupid, I am sorry.
But for goodness sake- I have hung on here through all kinds of crap-why? Because I am as interested in justice for Nona as you are. We may believe differently but our goal is the same. This is my town, my kid's town, it concerns me to have a murderer free.
I have given what information I have/get freely and I believe all other things I have shared have been accurate.
So please-lay off this "consider the source" crap!
Sorry to be so testy. Its been a bad several days for me, I need a hot bath, glass of wine and someone to answer the phone for me.

[Amy]

was that in testimony? it goes to my theory that KJ was off "under-achieving" at big, SEC, much more partying school while Nona was at home over-achieving and becoming poised and beautiful enough to compete in Miss AR. she was also applying herself in areas of community service. to me, she was clearly getting more and more out of KJ's league.

proposals normally come with a ring that has been purchased, do they not? looks like KJ never produced that. that whole "proposal" comment suggests to me KJ was expecting Nona to sit at home with her legs crossed and studying while he partied it up and slept with whomever he hooked up with at UA? nice

An interesting post from 03/20/06 by dtbh, a poster who knew both Nona and KJ. "I think it was this summer (2005) sometime that she called her mother to tell her Kevin had asked her to marry him then." pg3 post #85

So, altho he had already proposed, he was planing on proposing again? I guess she could have turned him down (not yet, honey) in the summer, so he was getting ready to propose again? Still seems like he would have mentioned it to more than just the one officer, maybe while he was being questioned? And, as always--where was the ring? Most proposals are accompanyied by a ring. Seems if he had it (in his pocket, one could assume, since he was going to propose THAT NIGHT) he would have shown SOMEONE.

IMO

[christina]

I feel that both the prosecution and the defense adjusted their plan of action as the trial went along that that hallway was filled with witnesses from both sides. I figure most cases go this way to an extent because both sides respond to what the other side says. So to answer your question, "yes."

Agreed.

[Amy]

I was looking at the beginning of the thread, and found a link to Huff's Crime Blog. The article that starts is one written pre-arrest, but the comments near the bottom of the page are from folk who watched 48 hrs.

There are several that seem to think Duane Dipert looked suspicious, others look @ KJ. Interesting comments about the show, anyway.

http://huffcrimeblog.com?p=513

And a 4 or 5 page article by Huff @ http:www.crimelibrary.com/news/ori...en_murder.html

[guppie]

Well guppie, that is my opinion. I witness most of the prosecution's statements first-hand at the trial. They let her down. christina or anyone else at the trial, what do you think about this?

i will conceed that if i had been the prosecutor, i would have concentrated more on some things that the state didn't. i would have presented the condom wrapper as planted and would have stuck with one motive. but IMO, when these prosecutors were up against some of the best defense attorneys in the state, they really didn't stand a chance anyway. i am in agreement that the prosecution's case wasn't up to par. i wouldn't go so far as to say they let Nona down though (as you stated). keep in mind, in our legal system it is a lot of times "he with the most money wins." IMO if KJ had a public defender or just one lower paid attorney, chances are good he would be in prison.

[christina]

Well guppie, that is my opinion. I witness most of the prosecution's statements first-hand at the trial. They let her down. christina or anyone else at the trial, what do you think about this?

My mantra has been and remains- the prosecution did the best they could with what was handed them by investigators. I think that is evidenced by how long they took to file charges after being handed the case by police.
But it would have helped had they focussed on some eveidence over others I think. I understood where they were going and the importance of setting a timeline, but common sense started to kick in with the jurors. I could tell the prosecution was making a big deal of some things that didn't ring true with them(nor some of the audience members).
Examples- "only 3 people had keys" "Nona was into security", "staged crime scene" all of these were dispelled fairly well. Nona chose to live alone in a not very secure building and we heard a witness that saw her throw keys at a male in the parking lot. Also, common sense tells you it is very easy to have extra keys made.

I could see the tack of focussing on her "moving on, outgrowing Jones" as being far more helpful. And then sticking with a jealous boyfriend theory.
That and the investigation finding something other than a tacky palm print on a light bulb next to the body the suspect admits to being near.
Personally, I think when (and if) we get the whole truth, it will come down to ego coupled with group think. My favorite for that is Bacon.

[guppie]

Yes. He thought he failed a test. He and Nona talked about it and he and his mother talked about it. Otherwise, I wouldn't have known about it.


and this was a kid that was the state's Vice-Pres of Beta Club in high school??? even the "thought" he failed an exam indicates to me he wasn't at all living up to his potential. sounds like he was going downhill while Nona was so concientious she was actually phoning professors!

[lorettalockhorn]

The defense said during their opening statements that the state did not test anyone for dna except for kj. They 100% said that. Now, I wonder if people that have volunteered their dna are counted in this group or possibly the prosecution had a few samples from willing prospects and chose not to test them? I don't know. I completely agree with Amy in that the defense said a ton of things at the trial that . . . I guess I can't necessarily say lies, but smokescreens. Like concentrating on irrelevant details and stating things that were ridiculous, like when they told Trey he lied about the time he made calls to Nona only to be corrected by the prosecution as to the call log being on a different time zone or whatever makes it an hour earlier than the actual call was placed. But, because the defense called Trey a liar, loudly and more than once, and the prosecution gently corrected the time, the jurors ate.it.up. I knew after the first few days that kj would not be convicted. The prosecution let Nona down. And I'm sure they know that.

I agree that both RPD and the prosecution let down Nona, her family and their constituents. RPD could have started off on a better foot by securing the scene and wearing gloves for instance. When Waid fell down on the job re: KJ's car, it should have been noted in their daily sit downs and someone else should have taken up the slack. And in the seemingly long time that it took for Gibbons to file charges against Kevin, he could have been insisting that more of the evidence collected was tested. The State should have foreseen what questions the defense would ask of their witnesses on cross examination and should have done a better job rehabilitating them. And the State could have done a much better job of presenting the circumstantial elements of the case. Not much you can say about Gibbons changing the motive.

[guppie]

I feel that both the prosecution and the defense adjusted their plan of action as the trial went along that that hallway was filled with witnesses from both sides. I figure most cases go this way to an extent because both sides respond to what the other side says. So to answer your question, "yes."


sure, any good defense will adjust their strategy and witness list according to what the prosec presents. what tends to not be so good is when the prosec adjusts in mid-trial. makes the case appear weak.

[guppie]

I posted this on the 28th, don't know if you missed it.
"You know Hawg, I have done my mea culpas for that one infraction of making my relationship with the family different than it really was. It was stupid, I am sorry.
But for goodness sake- I have hung on here through all kinds of crap-why? Because I am as interested in justice for Nona as you are. We may believe differently but our goal is the same. This is my town, my kid's town, it concerns me to have a murderer free.
I have given what information I have/get freely and I believe all other things I have shared have been accurate.
So please-lay off this "consider the source" crap!
Sorry to be so testy. Its been a bad several days for me, I need a hot bath, glass of wine and someone to answer the phone for me.

well considering i posted your complete quote along with my response, i guess i did NOT miss it. so what is your answer to my question? was that your only lie?

[lorettalockhorn]

An interesting post from 03/20/06 by dtbh, a poster who knew both Nona and KJ. "I think it was this summer (2005) sometime that she called her mother to tell her Kevin had asked her to marry him then." pg3 post #85

So, altho he had already proposed, he was planing on proposing again? I guess she could have turned him down (not yet, honey) in the summer, so he was getting ready to propose again? Still seems like he would have mentioned it to more than just the one officer, maybe while he was being questioned? And, as always--where was the ring? Most proposals are accompanyied by a ring. Seems if he had it (in his pocket, one could assume, since he was going to propose THAT NIGHT) he would have shown SOMEONE.

IMO

Amen.

He had several hours after the murder to think up that tearjerker. Can you think of anything more endearing? More tragic? If it had been true? Why propose for a second time minus a ring?

[guppie]

christina;9094760]My mantra has been and remains- the prosecution did the best they could with what was handed them by investigators. I think that is evidenced by how long they took to file charges after being handed the case by police.
But it would have helped had they focussed on some eveidence over others I think. I understood where they were going and the importance of setting a timeline, but common sense started to kick in with the jurors. I could tell the prosecution was making a big deal of some things that didn't ring true with them(nor some of the audience members).
funny, my impression is that the jurors' common sense must have leaked out their ears.

[lorettalockhorn]

that may be a little harsh. let's see. what do you think the yearly income of the prosecutor is in comparison to what those defense attorneys make??? my bet is those defense attorneys make many times more money. IMO it isn't so much that the prosecution let Nona down as it is that the dream team were masters of manipulation. unfortunately, our legal system favors the wealthy. maybe if every case required govt-employed attorneys on BOTH sides, it would be more fair and just?

I don't think government payscales have anything to do with a prosecutor's ability per se. Or maybe the finer, more successful ones, the ones with winning records are independently wealthy. ;) But you're right that higher income defendants usually fare better in court.

[guppie]

Amen.

He had several hours after the murder to think up that tearjerker. Can you think of anything more endearing? More tragic? If it had been true? Why propose for a second time minus a ring?

hmm, let's see. why KJ would come up with that...to steer investig away from motive?

[guppie]

I don't think government payscales have anything to do with a prosecutor's ability per se. Or maybe the finer, more successful ones, the ones with winning records are independently wealthy. ;) But you're right that higher income defendants usually fare better in court.


i am certainly not meaning that all prosecutors are lumped together. it is just that most of the really excellent ones go into private practice as defense attorneys. there are many good prosec. they just usually go on to the big bucks! just clarifying what i meant.

[jonikay]

i will conceed that if i had been the prosecutor, i would have concentrated more on some things that the state didn't. i would have presented the condom wrapper as planted and would have stuck with one motive. but IMO, when these prosecutors were up against some of the best defense attorneys in the state, they really didn't stand a chance anyway. i am in agreement that the prosecution's case wasn't up to par. i wouldn't go so far as to say they let Nona down though (as you stated). keep in mind, in our legal system it is a lot of times "he with the most money wins." IMO if KJ had a public defender or just one lower paid attorney, chances are good he would be in prison.
Here's where you and I differ guppie . . . it is my opinion that the prosecution had every bit of the information they needed to convict Jones but due to their own presentation and explanation of the evidence, they lost. People have been convicted on less than a bloody print on a light bulb. Money or not, the evidence was there.

[lorettalockhorn]

i am certainly not meaning that all prosecutors are lumped together. it is just that most of the really excellent ones go into private practice as defense attorneys. there are many good prosec, they just usually go on to the big bucks! just clarifying what i meant.

Isn't a prosecutorial position generally considered a better training ground than a defensive one? And I can certainly imagine the degree of burnout that plague prosecutors.

[guppie]

Isn't a prosecutorial position generally considered a better training ground than a defensive one? And I can certainly imagine the degree of burnout that plague prosecutors.

it is my opinion that the best defense attorneys were once good prosecutors. if you are a really good prosec, unless your are just a huge idealist (possibly with family money too), wouldn't you move on to be a defense atty? i don't know how much KJ's dream team made, but KJ is probably eating a lot of Ramen Noodles-is that what he and mommy were cooking on 48 hrs?! no really, i bet his family paid dearly for that level of defense.

[christina]

well considering i posted your complete quote along with my response, i guess i did NOT miss it. so what is your answer to my question? was that your only lie?

Sorry, I was reading through many posts at one time and did not catch the quote.
No, it is not my only lie. I attend confession weekly to keep as short a list as possible between me and The Man.

[christina]

I agree that both RPD and the prosecution let down Nona, her family and their constituents. RPD could have started off on a better foot by securing the scene and wearing gloves for instance. When Waid fell down on the job re: KJ's car, it should have been noted in their daily sit downs and someone else should have taken up the slack. And in the seemingly long time that it took for Gibbons to file charges against Kevin, he could have been insisting that more of the evidence collected was tested. The State should have foreseen what questions the defense would ask of their witnesses on cross examination and should have done a better job rehabilitating them. And the State could have done a much better job of presenting the circumstantial elements of the case. Not much you can say about Gibbons changing the motive.

I agree with your comments here. Have you heard anything about Waid since the trial? Several people remarked he was actually a stronger investigator than Frost and had he not left the department the outcome of the investigation would have been different. But I heard there was some family emergency that caused him to take a leave of absence almost immediately after the murder.

[christina]

Here's where you and I differ guppie . . . it is my opinion that the prosecution had every bit of the information they needed to convict Jones but due to their own presentation and explanation of the evidence, they lost. People have been convicted on less than a bloody print on a light bulb. Money or not, the evidence was there.

What specific things do you see they could/should have highlighted or left out?

[lorettalockhorn]

it is my opinion that the best defense attorneys were once good prosecutors. if you are a really good prosec, unless your are just a huge idealist (possibly with family money too), wouldn't you move on to be a defense atty? i don't know how much KJ's dream team made, but KJ is probably eating a lot of Ramen Noodles-is that what he and mommy were cooking on 48 hrs?! no really, i bet his family paid dearly for that level of defense.

I would imagine that many (good) defense attorneys began as prosecutors; having the onus of the burden of truth would be a good training method. I don't believe that defendants should only have available government attorneys; just as a man cannot "serve two masters", I don't think the state can have such great stakes in two such disparate outcomes. (And forgive this tiny bit of republican in me, but doesn't the government already have too much say in our business??)

[Amy]

and this was a kid that was the state's Vice-Pres of Beta Club in high school??? even the "thought" he failed an exam indicates to me he wasn't at all living up to his potential. sounds like he was going downhill while Nona was so concientious she was actually phoning professors!

Bright, honor-roll high school students all over the country trek off to college, and once they get there, many let the experience of "freedom" from the home fires go to their heads. My goodness, who wouldn't rather go to a fun party than to stay home and study? Stay up late a few (or a lot of) nights maybe studying, maybe partying--and then just can't get up for that class early in the am. If that was what KJ was doing his first year at college, he would not be the first or the only one to do so.

Some of these kids end up throwing their opportunity for higher education out the window, others straighten up their acts and get on with the studying.

And, was this the first and only test KJ tho't he had failed? Was that part of his angst? That his grades had been great, fine, or at least passing, but he tho't he failed this one test? Or, was it because this was one in a long line of test failures?

[Amy]

it is my opinion that the best defense attorneys were once good prosecutors. if you are a really good prosec, unless your are just a huge idealist (possibly with family money too), wouldn't you move on to be a defense atty? i don't know how much KJ's dream team made, but KJ is probably eating a lot of Ramen Noodles-is that what he and mommy were cooking on 48 hrs?! no really, i bet his family paid dearly for that level of defense.

I think that there are prosecuting attorneys who do that because that is the type of law they want to do. Not everyone looks to something else just cuz it pays more money. I would expect some like being the pros attorney because they feel they can make a difference. Besides, that would be as prestigious a position as say, a doctor, a professor, etc.

And the real biggie, IMO. Not all attorneys have the mindset, so to speak to be defense attorneys. That would be darn low on my list--having to defend those with or without money, even if you know they are guilty of whatever crime, especially if it is a heinous murder. Some people actually want to feel good about themselves when they look at their faces in the mirror every morning. To defend someone who is innocent is one thing. To defend someone who is guilty, attempting to lessen the sentence is another. The ones that really get my goat are the ones who throw out garbage (usually making other people look bad, and especially if not true) to defend a guilty, guilty, guilty person.

IMO:)

[lorettalockhorn]

Bright, honor-roll high school students all over the country trek off to college, and once they get there, many let the experience of "freedom" from the home fires go to their heads. My goodness, who wouldn't rather go to a fun party than to stay home and study? Stay up late a few (or a lot of) nights maybe studying, maybe partying--and then just can't get up for that class early in the am. If that was what KJ was doing his first year at college, he would not be the first or the only one to do so.

Some of these kids end up throwing their opportunity for higher education out the window, others straighten up their acts and get on with the studying.

And, was this the first and only test KJ tho't he had failed? Was that part of his angst? That his grades had been great, fine, or at least passing, but he tho't he failed this one test? Or, was it because this was one in a long line of test failures?

I think I was on double secret probation after my first semester. :eek: Probably makes my diploma more dear. I'll assume that KJ still does okay fine, or he wouldn't still be in school.

[lorettalockhorn]

I think that there are prosecuting attorneys who do that because that is the type of law they want to do. Not everyone looks to something else just cuz it pays more money. I would expect some like being the pros attorney because they feel they can make a difference. Besides, that would be as prestigious a position as say, a doctor, a professor, etc.

And the real biggie, IMO. Not all attorneys have the mindset, so to speak to be defense attorneys. That would be darn low on my list--having to defend those with or without money, even if you know they are guilty of whatever crime, especially if it is a heinous murder. Some people actually want to feel good about themselves when they look at their faces in the mirror every morning. To defend someone who is innocent is one thing. To defend someone who is guilty, attempting to lessen the sentence is another. The ones that really get my goat are the ones who throw out garbage (usually making other people look bad, and especially if not true) to defend a guilty, guilty, guilty person.

IMO:)

I absolutely think that there are plenty of criminal defense attorneys who are idealists. And I don't know if I could do it myself, but even attorneys who defend the guilty can be bolstered by the fact that every defendant deserves a vigorous defense. (If I was a D attorney, I'm sure there would be clients that I would never ask the guilty/not guilty question of.)

[ifIwereU]

Subliminal man is a funny skit. I was referring to this quote specifically "will your "so-called" source stand by you" I see the words "so-called" and in quotations as sarcasm, meaning a disbelief. But thanks for explaining you meant nothing by it.
No guilty conscience on my part.
Det. Hemmer was at the trial and was going to be called as a witness but I don't remember that he was, do you?

my understanding of what Hemmer was going to testify to was about JOnes making a statement to him for which he apologized for contaiminating the crime scene and that he should have known better. He supposedly told Hemmer that he had a "friend" who had found a loved one murdered and had screwed up the scene and the case was never solved....now, I don't know that to be case but that's what I heard....Hemmer did not testify...so we will never know....maybe you could get that verified....

also, what's your take on the 22 denials? what's the crediability on that.....you would think if Jones had 22 denials the night of the visitation the pros would have played it....you know how rumors go, I was hoping you could get that confirmed, would help alot, IMO

[ifIwereU]

I absolutely think that there are plenty of criminal defense attorneys who are idealists. And I don't know if I could do it myself, but even attorneys who defend the guilty can be bolstered by the fact that every defendant deserves a vigorous defense. (If I was a D attorney, I'm sure there would be clients that I would never ask the guilty/not guilty question of.)

wasn't gibbons a defense attorney before being Pros....along with Jeff Phillips...?

[guppie]

Originally Posted by guppie
i know there is talk that you have "lied" on here, and i took this post to be an admittance and accountability for "one infraction." i appreciate that, and i personally don't feel that one thing should discredit you across the board. are you saying this is your only lie in this thread?

Sorry, I was reading through many posts at one time and did not catch the quote.
No, it is not my only lie. I attend confession weekly to keep as short a list as possible between me and The Man.

come on, christina. it isn't looking good for you that you are dodging the question...twice. i clearly asked if your "one infraction" you admitted to was your only lie in this thread." awaiting your answer.

[guppie]

What specific things do you see they could/should have highlighted or left out?


i would have to take some time to look through and make a specific list. what comes to mind right now is that i would have picked one motive and stuck with it! without a doubt, i would have spent the most time on all the things that point to motive. i have gone over and over those repeatedly in my posts. i would have argued BIG time on the characteristics of abusive, controlling bf behavior. i definitely would have called in at least one expert psych on that! did the prosec do that and i missed it?

another thing, i would have considered the condom wrapper to be planted and driven that home with the jury. i don't agree with the trigger theory. i do believe it is a possibility that condom was found by KJ on an earlier occasion at Nona's and pocketed. i went into that in a post too.

also, i am seeing that there are so many circumstantial things that if the prosec had made a big list and put it up on the wall in big bold print and left it there, maybe it would have helped jurors see that there are just waaaay to many things for KJ to make excuses for. ALL JMO!

[guppie]

Bright, honor-roll high school students all over the country trek off to college, and once they get there, many let the experience of "freedom" from the home fires go to their heads. My goodness, who wouldn't rather go to a fun party than to stay home and study? Stay up late a few (or a lot of) nights maybe studying, maybe partying--and then just can't get up for that class early in the am. If that was what KJ was doing his first year at college, he would not be the first or the only one to do so.
Some of these kids end up throwing their opportunity for higher education out the window, others straighten up their acts and get on with the studying.

And, was this the first and only test KJ tho't he had failed? Was that part of his angst? That his grades had been great, fine, or at least passing, but he tho't he failed this one test? Or, was it because this was one in a long line of test failures?

wasn't he in his second yr of college? anyway, my point was only that it shows KJ was under-achieving while Nona seemed to be over-achieving. these little things can all be added up to show motive. IMO one or two little things isn't sufficient, but it seems there are quite A LOT of these little things in this case that when you add them together, make one big fat motive.

[christina]

i would have to take some time to look through and make a specific list. what comes to mind right now is that i would have picked one motive and stuck with it! without a doubt, i would have spent the most time on all the things that point to motive. i have gone over and over those repeatedly in my posts. i would have argued BIG time on the characteristics of abusive, controlling bf behavior. i definitely would have called in at least one expert psych on that! did the prosec do that and i missed it?

another thing, i would have considered the condom wrapper to be planted and driven that home with the jury. i don't agree with the trigger theory. i do believe it is a possibility that condom was found by KJ on an earlier occasion at Nona's and pocketed. i went into that in a post too.

also, i am seeing that there are so many circumstantial things that if the prosec had made a big list and put it up on the wall in big bold print and left it there, maybe it would have helped jurors see that there are just waaaay to many things for KJ to make excuses for. ALL JMO!

Thanks for answering- that question was a reponse to Jonikay though.

[lorettalockhorn]

Thanks for answering- that question was a reponse to Jonikay though.

Now that made me laugh! :hat:

[christina]

my understanding of what Hemmer was going to testify to was about JOnes making a statement to him for which he apologized for contaiminating the crime scene and that he should have known better. He supposedly told Hemmer that he had a "friend" who had found a loved one murdered and had screwed up the scene and the case was never solved....now, I don't know that to be case but that's what I heard....Hemmer did not testify...so we will never know....maybe you could get that verified....

also, what's your take on the 22 denials? what's the crediability on that.....you would think if Jones had 22 denials the night of the visitation the pros would have played it....you know how rumors go, I was hoping you could get that confirmed, would help alot, IMO


Thanks for responding. I was told Hemmer(if that's not how it is spelled, sorry!?!?) was going to testify to something he overheard Jones say in the hallway of the police station. But like you, its only something I was told and not something I can verify absolutely. True, Hemmer and many others did not testify. I can only imagine the pressure both sides felt during the trial to make the "right" decisions!
My take on Jones denying he touched the lamp- he didn't remember. The tape from the night of the murder was played in court and that is what I got from it.
The tape from the night of visitation was not but we got to see a small part of it on 48 Hours. What I saw in that was a different atmosphere, definitely an interrogation.

[christina]

wasn't gibbons a defense attorney before being Pros....along with Jeff Phillips...?

Gibbons was and his wife still is. Phillips practices on the side as well as being a deputy prosector. I don't think he and Gibbons were ever partners though.
Both those men have good reputations and are strong lawyers.

[jeremiads]

Yes, I do think the defense adjusted there plan of action. But you stated your disdain for them and support of the prosectuion, so I was asking for your observation of them.That's kind of hard for me to judge when I wasn't even allowed into the courtroom, huh?

[christina]

That's kind of hard for me to judge when I wasn't even allowed into the courtroom, huh?

I was asking your opinion because of your first hand knowledge of the case coupled with what you have read/heard etc.

[guppie]

Thanks for answering- that question was a reponse to Jonikay though.


yes, i am laughing at myself along with Lo! oops!

[jonikay]

What specific things do you see they could/should have highlighted or left out?
The many inconsistencis (contaminating the scene, lies about relationships and his relationship with Nona, when phone calls to Nona were made, when he got to the station, the straight contradiction of granny's account of when he got to the station, the fact that he didn't mention seeing granny at the station during at least one interrogation, his drug use, failing classes, partying, why he didn't have keys, the holes in his alibi) expert testimony that stated the print had to have been made at time of murder, motive, they should have capitalized on his many inconsistencies, testimony about his actions at the crime scene, his actions following her murder . . . if I think of more, I will post. Every inconsistency was just swept over by the prosecution. He should have been slammed for the inconsistencies. The weird testimony from Jordan Harris in which the defense made him talk about sex with Nona to the point of embarrassment should have been stopped, the smokescreens the defense put up in relation to Trey York should have been blown down, all smokescreens that insulted the intelligence of the jurors (IMO) should have been blown , JM should have testified to eliminate reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors . . .

[guppie]

The many inconsistencis (contaminating the scene, lies about relationships and his relationship with Nona, when phone calls to Nona were made, when he got to the station, the straight contradiction of granny's account of when he got to the station, the fact that he didn't mention seeing granny at the station during at least one interrogation, his drug use, failing classes, partying, why he didn't have keys, the holes in his alibi) expert testimony that stated the print had to have been made at time of murder, motive, they should have capitalized on his many inconsistencies, testimony about his actions at the crime scene, his actions following her murder . . . if I think of more, I will post. Every inconsistency was just swept over by the prosecution. He should have been slammed for the inconsistencies. The weird testimony from Jordan Harris in which the defense made him talk about sex with Nona to the point of embarrassment should have been stopped, the smokescreens the defense put up in relation to Trey York should have been blown down, all smokescreens that insulted the intelligence of the jurors (IMO) should have been blown , JM should have testified to eliminate reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors . . .


excellent post. did the prosec post all these things (and more) up together and in bold print for the jury to see, at least during closing?

[lorettalockhorn]

The many inconsistencis (contaminating the scene, lies about relationships and his relationship with Nona, when phone calls to Nona were made, when he got to the station, the straight contradiction of granny's account of when he got to the station, the fact that he didn't mention seeing granny at the station during at least one interrogation, his drug use, failing classes, partying, why he didn't have keys, the holes in his alibi) expert testimony that stated the print had to have been made at time of murder, motive, they should have capitalized on his many inconsistencies, testimony about his actions at the crime scene, his actions following her murder . . . if I think of more, I will post. Every inconsistency was just swept over by the prosecution. He should have been slammed for the inconsistencies. The weird testimony from Jordan Harris in which the defense made him talk about sex with Nona to the point of embarrassment should have been stopped, the smokescreens the defense put up in relation to Trey York should have been blown down, all smokescreens that insulted the intelligence of the jurors (IMO) should have been blown , JM should have testified to eliminate reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors . . .

Agree on all your points. I thought it was also inconsistent that JJ testified that she and KJ discussed him accompanying her to the party, yet he wasn't approved as her guest until around 4pm. I wish the prosecution had asked all of Nona's and Kevin's friends and family who testified if he had mentioned anything about a proposal that night.

Intelligence of the jury. Good one!

Of course, I wasn't in the courtroom, maybe I would have been swayed the very first day of testimony.

[jonikay]

excellent post. did the prosec post all these things (and more) up together and in bold print for the jury to see, at least during closing?
I wasn't there the last day, but I don't think so. I posted what the prosecution should have done, but didn't. So it is my opinion that they didn't capitalize on all of these things enough.

[jonikay]

Agree on all your points. I thought it was also inconsistent that JJ testified that she and KJ discussed him accompanying her to the party, yet he wasn't approved as her guest until around 4pm. I wish the prosecution had asked all of Nona's and Kevin's friends and family who testified if he had mentioned anything about a proposal that night.

Intelligence of the jury. Good one!

Of course, I wasn't in the courtroom, maybe I would have been swayed the very first day of testimony.
You're right, that's another one. And the fact that he stated that Nona cancelled her date with her little. The statements of the bathtub guys on when they got to KJ's house were also contradictory. They should have stood up, yelled, waved their hands about, whatever would have made these inconsistencies stand out. A lot of the time, they didn't even ask them about the inconsistencies. I believe they saw early on that they were not going to win because of the rpd mishaps, which they surely could have painted to be less than a deal as it was, I mean, doing those kinds of things is their job, right?

[lorettalockhorn]

You're right, that's another one. And the fact that he stated that Nona cancelled her date with her little. The statements of the bathtub guys on when they got to KJ's house were also contradictory. They should have stood up, yelled, waved their hands about, whatever would have made these inconsistencies stand out. A lot of the time, they didn't even ask them about the inconsistencies. I believe they saw early on that they were not going to win because of the rpd mishaps, which they surely could have painted to be less than a deal as it was, I mean, doing those kinds of things is their job, right?

Omigosh, I had even forgotten that he claimed that the Little dinner was off. What a schmuck.

You're absolutely right, they should have been pushing the limits with regard to what they would let stand in the minds of the jury.

[guppie]

You're right, that's another one. And the fact that he stated that Nona cancelled her date with her little. The statements of the bathtub guys on when they got to KJ's house were also contradictory. They should have stood up, yelled, waved their hands about, whatever would have made these inconsistencies stand out. A lot of the time, they didn't even ask them about the inconsistencies. I believe they saw early on that they were not going to win because of the rpd mishaps, which they surely could have painted to be less than a deal as it was, I mean, doing those kinds of things is their job, right?

wow, you sure have me shaking my head. i may come to agree with you about the prosec losing this case way more than the defense won it. it just blows my mind that the prosec didn't hammer these inconsistencies home. i wonder how long the lead prosec had been practicing or how many murder cases he had tried before. seems like he missed some pretty basic stuff. also, about how many murder cases are there in russelville per year (i asked this before but don't think i got a response)?

[jeremiads]

also, about how many murder cases are there in russelville per year (i asked this before but don't think i got a response)?If you want to talk about the number of murders per year in Russellville, you'd probably have to use some irrational number to represent something between 0 and 1.

[lorettalockhorn]

wow, you sure have me shaking my head. i may come to agree with you about the prosec losing this case way more than the defense won it. it just blows my mind that the prosec didn't hammer these inconsistencies home. i wonder how long the lead prosec had been practicing or how many murder cases he had tried before. seems like he missed some pretty basic stuff. also, about how many murder cases are there in russelville per year (i asked this before but don't think i got a response)?

Gibbons has a good success rate, IMO. Finding his stats would take some digging.

I blame the judge also. For whatever reason, he didn't allow testimony to show that Kevin was having sex outside the relationship as Nona was. Maybe that is the reason that the prosecution changed the motive to the wrapper being the trigger; if the jury saw Kevin as having been cuckolded in this "very exclusive relationship", the State had no recourse than to show that her having sex with The Condom Wearer was the explanation for his rage that day.

I just don't know when I've seen a murder victim so victimized by a trial. :(

[guppie]

If you want to talk about the number of murders per year in Russellville, you'd probably have to use some irrational number to represent something between 0 and 1.


i had stated that it may be understandable that the RPD made some errors b/c i doubted they investigated many murders per year there. i guess that would also make it difficult for a prosecutor who doesn't have a lot of practice in murder cases. seems like a double-whammy. KJ had the luxury of hiring any attorney licensed in the whole state. i don't know how much combined experience his dream team had in murder cases. some things to consider.

[guppie]

Gibbons has a good success rate, IMO. Finding his stats would take some digging.

I blame the judge also. For whatever reason, he didn't allow testimony to show that Kevin was having sex outside the relationship as Nona was. Maybe that is the reason that the prosecution changed the motive to the wrapper being the trigger; if the jury saw Kevin as having been cuckolded in this "very exclusive relationship", the State had no recourse than to show that her having sex with The Condom Wearer was the explanation for his rage that day.

I just don't know when I've seen a murder victim so victimized by a trial. :(

Gibbons has a good success rate in murder cases?

[lorettalockhorn]

Right offhand I can think of very few murder cases in his jurisdiction; the case in Dover where the guy buried his wife; Gibbons sent to the pokey. As well as the couple in Johnson County that he prosecuted when their daughter died in a house fire (the sum*****es chained her to the bed and when the house was burning left her behind :flamemad: ). The Vega case which he lost to Phillips and Nona's case. Anyone else?

[ifIwereU]

Right offhand I can think of very few murder cases in his jurisdiction; the case in Dover where the guy buried his wife; Gibbons sent to the pokey. As well as the couple in Johnson County that he prosecuted when their daughter died in a house fire (the sum*****es chained her to the bed and when the house was burning left her behind :flamemad: ). The Vega case which he lost to Phillips and Nona's case. Anyone else?


there was that "skinhead" murder...where a couple of skinheads killed a drug informant couple of years ago....they both went to prison...there have been a few murders in Johnson co and Franklin co that he has won also...

[lorettalockhorn]

there was that "skinhead" murder...where a couple of skinheads killed a drug informant couple of years ago....they both went to prison...there have been a few murders in Johnson co and Franklin co that he has won also...

Hey U! (hehehe When Leroy comes home in the afternoon, he always hollers out "hey you!" in case I didn't hear him crash through the back door, drop half his stuff and trip over the pattern in the rug). Was that the case where the guys from Morrilton or whatever that county is, killed the guy and left his body over by Mill Creek?

[ifIwereU]

Hey U! (hehehe When Leroy comes home in the afternoon, he always hollers out "hey you!" in case I didn't hear him crash through the back door, drop half his stuff and trip over the pattern in the rug). Was that the case where the guys from Morrilton or whatever that county is, killed the guy and left his body over by Mill Creek?

well, sounds like me and Leroy have a lot in common!! the victim was from Morrilton but he was killed up by Mill Creek...Jack Christain was his name...Gibbons also successfully convicted an attorneys son (Maynard) of murder in Ozark just before the Jones trial. There was also a man killed up around Golden Pond back in 2000...in which Gibbons got a conviction (Fred Cain, I think was his name)...so he's no stranger to the murder trials

[lorettalockhorn]

well, sounds like me and Leroy have a lot in common!! the victim was from Morrilton but he was killed up by Mill Creek...Jack Christain was his name...Gibbons also successfully convicted an attorneys son (Maynard) of murder in Ozark just before the Jones trial. There was also a man killed up around Golden Pond back in 2000...in which Gibbons got a conviction (Fred Cain, I think was his name)...so he's no stranger to the murder trials

:punch: LOL :punch:

Didn't know about the Ozark murder trial. Now, wasn't Fred Cain the victim in the murder at Golden Pond? Wasn't the perp the young man who had been molested by Cain and who escaped the sheriff's office?

[lorettalockhorn]

Found this trial in Clarksville, but no outcome in the archives:

http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=7302&Search=murder%20trial

[guppie]

oh geez, ya'll are a hoot. you can actually name the murder cases! remember, i am from memphis, and there is no way in heck i could begin to name the murder cases! i guess it's all relative, but i don't think a handful of murder cases is a lot. i don't even watch the local news anymore because there are so many murders. let's just say i have a feeling lots of prosecutors around here are well-schooled in murder cases.

[lorettalockhorn]

Guppie, Memphis probably has numerous prosecutors too. I think it's safe to say that Gibbons has a decent conviction record re: murders and probably otherwise too. A very good friend of mine, God rest his soul, told me once that if a lawyer wins fifty percent of the time, he should consider himself ahead.

[Amy]

well, sounds like me and Leroy have a lot in common!! the victim was from Morrilton but he was killed up by Mill Creek...Jack Christain was his name...Gibbons also successfully convicted an attorneys son (Maynard) of murder in Ozark just before the Jones trial. There was also a man killed up around Golden Pond back in 2000...in which Gibbons got a conviction (Fred Cain, I think was his name)...so he's no stranger to the murder trials

So, the Ozark case was the one that kept Nona's case on the back burner for a while? I remember when the case went to the prosecutor's office, that he wanted to wait til the current trial concluded so he could concentrate on Nona's case.

And, so Gibbons wouldn't be a stranger to the folks of Ozark, either, since he had just recently been there.

[Amy]

Found this trial in Clarksville, but no outcome in the archives:

http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=7302&Search=murder%20trial

Maybe there was no trial, afterall, what with having trouble finding enough jurors to show up. I noticed that "having a fondness" for the defendant's father, and attending church regularly with one of the prosecuting attorneys must be cause for getting released from jury duty.

Doesn't happen around here. Doesn't even matter if you or an immediate family member works for one party-you still serve. Or course, none of those have been murder cases, which would probably make a difference. ;)

[lorettalockhorn]

Amy, the trial went forward, there is an article in The Courier the following week, but I didn't find the outcome.

Excerpt from the jury selection process:

Jury selection took a lighthearted tone amidst an otherwise tense day of testimony Thursday.
With presiding Circuit Judge John Patterson questioning jurors about potential conflicts of interest, one potential juror volunteered that she was distantly related to Gibbons.
“Do you ever eat turkey dinner together on Thanksgiving or socialize like that?” Patterson asked the potential juror.
“No,” she responded softly. “He never invites me over.”
The response drew laughter from other potential jurors and court personnel.
“Well, that will change,” Gibbons retorted.


http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=7359&Search=kevin%20holland

Gibbons is from Ozark; he's probably not a stranger to many.

[guppie]

This will certainly be interesting to see a murder trial of this magnitude in Pope County!

i guess posts like this gave me the impression it was unusual and the prosec may not have had a lot of murder trial experience. also, on a sidenote, some of ValleyGirl's posts before trial were so prophetic. wow.

[lorettalockhorn]

I am not being heartless. In cases that are growing cold it helps to have the family in the news to keep the core of the case alive and fresh in the minds of potential jurors. I know that the family did an interview right after the murder and opened up about her past. I am not laying any responsibility on the family. I just know from experience that it helps to keep the face of the victim on the mind's of the community. The victim can't speak, so it is the family's duty (of sorts) to keep the public focused on her.

When things are quiet it creates doubt. In this situation it is very odd because of the "ongoing investigation". This case is very strange given the fact that the police say they are confident yet there words don't reflect their actions.

The perfect example of what a family's response can do is that of Laci Peterson. Her family was steadfast about keeping her name in the minds of potential jurors and it helped to get a conviction.

The bolded segment of this statement is odd. Way odd.

[guppie]

I am not being heartless. In cases that are growing cold it helps to have the family in the news to keep the core of the case alive and fresh in the minds of potential jurors. I know that the family did an interview right after the murder and opened up about her past. I am not laying any responsibility on the family. I just know from experience that it helps to keep the face of the victim on the mind's of the community. The victim can't speak, so it is the family's duty (of sorts) to keep the public focused on her.

When things are quiet it creates doubt. In this situation it is very odd because of the "ongoing investigation". This case is very strange given the fact that the police say they are confident yet there words don't reflect their actions.

The perfect example of what a family's response can do is that of Laci Peterson. Her family was steadfast about keeping her name in the minds of potential jurors and it helped to get a conviction.

The bolded segment of this statement is odd. Way odd.

when was this posted? i was just reading things from before the trial. i only noticed a couple of things she said that seemed to be the case later on. what in the world did she mean by that comment? that makes it sound like Nona's family failed her. what a weird thing to say. am i reading this right?

[Amy]

i guess posts like this gave me the impression it was unusual and the prosec may not have had a lot of murder trial experience. also, on a sidenote, some of ValleyGirl's posts before trial were so prophetic. wow.

Perhaps, it is in AR like it is in KS--in the more rural areas, the members of the judicial system serve in more than one county? So, altho there might not have been a trial of that magnitude in Pope CO, the DA might served in trials in surrounding counties that DID have "big" trials.

[lorettalockhorn]

[QUOTE=lorettalockhorn;9094834]

when was this posted? i was just reading things from before the trial. i only noticed a couple of things she said that seemed to be the case later on. what in the world did she mean by that comment? that makes it sound like Nona's family failed her. what a weird thing to say. am i reading this right?


It was posted 3/13/06. Hint: if you click the little > next to the quoted person's name within a quote, it will take you to the original quote and the surrounding milieu.

[lorettalockhorn]

Perhaps, it is in AR like it is in KS--in the more rural areas, the members of the judicial system serve in more than one county? So, altho there might not have been a trial of that magnitude in Pope CO, the DA might served in trials in surrounding counties that DID have "big" trials.

The 5th Judicial covers Pope, Johnson and Franklin Counties.

[sololobo]

post from crime scene analysis:




if you look with your own two eyes, you see that the card with KJ's fingerprints in Nona's blood was on the table away from Nona's body (see photo). are you seriously trying to make us believe that KJ picked it up from the floor and walked it over to the table? come on. if he picked it up off the floor as you say, then it makes sense that he would have set it back down there. KJ, RW, and JJ were the ones there, and i don't find them at all believable.
so why are you so insistent that card was on the floor? maybe because you see how freakishly jealous and controlling it appears on KJ's part? well, at least it seems we must agree on one thing...that card is a REALLY compelling piece of evidence. if you didn't think so, you wouldn't keep insisting it was in a place other than where it was.

"Prosecutors also pointed out that witnesses, including Jones in a taped interview with police the night Dirksmeyer’s body was found, said Jones never touched anything in the apartment at the time her body was discovered except Dirksmeyer’s body and a greeting card laying on the floor next to her." Arkansas Democrat Gazette, NWAE

http://www.nwarktimes.com/adg/News/196134/print/

There is more info on this case than what you saw on 48 Hours. The photo you saw was taken after discovery of the body. You cannot assume the card, allegedly the only thing he touched in addition to the body, was there before discovery.

[FDInLaw]

In the Response to the Motion for Discovery towards the end it mentions e-mails between the victim and you. Did you supply all these? Do you know if there were e-mails supplied from another source?

[FDInLaw]

my understanding of what Hemmer was going to testify to was about JOnes making a statement to him for which he apologized for contaiminating the crime scene and that he should have known better. He supposedly told Hemmer that he had a "friend" who had found a loved one murdered and had screwed up the scene and the case was never solved....now, I don't know that to be case but that's what I heard....Hemmer did not testify...so we will never know....maybe you could get that verified....

also, what's your take on the 22 denials? what's the crediability on that.....you would think if Jones had 22 denials the night of the visitation the pros would have played it....you know how rumors go, I was hoping you could get that confirmed, would help alot, IMO
Interesting. . . almost like Kevin knew what he was doing. Weird.

[Amy]

Interesting. . . almost like Kevin knew what he was doing. Weird.

I hadn't heard about him apologizing about contaminating the crime scene (or at least don't remember reading about it.) I wonder if that is part of the statement that would include his comment about watching CSI shows--which had been made public?

I do remember discussions early on about whether he intentionally contaminated the scene with his "resuscitation" scene.

[guppie]

The 5th Judicial covers Pope, Johnson and Franklin Counties.


sometimes the more rural, spread out areas of states have "traveling judges" (a rotation of sorts). i don't know that there are traveling prosecutors though. maybe there are in AR.

[lorettalockhorn]

Clarksville is about 26.1 miles from Russellville to the West and Ozark another 23.2 miles further West (I think), so yes, they do travel.

[upallnight]

that may be a little harsh. let's see. what do you think the yearly income of the prosecutor is in comparison to what those defense attorneys make??? my bet is those defense attorneys make many times more money. IMO it isn't so much that the prosecution let Nona down as it is that the dream team were masters of manipulation. unfortunately, our legal system favors the wealthy. maybe if every case required govt-employed attorneys on BOTH sides, it would be more fair and just?
Not sure guppie but I think it was KJ and possibly his family that hired these attorney's instead of "if you can not afford an attorney one will be appointed for you". I think the requirement of both sides having attorney's for them that is appointed is there, but I think KJ & Family bought what they wanted based on what ever information they had of this team. I am not so sure if KJ had a court appointed attorney, instead of these 3 he had, he would have been walking around any where except prison.

[upallnight]

Well guppie, that is my opinion. I witness most of the prosecution's statements first-hand at the trial. They let her down. christina or anyone else at the trial, what do you think about this?

guppie, jonikay saw things at the trial as did I and I agree, the prosection could have done more, but this also lays back on other things, one being finger prints v dna on the condom wrapper. The RPD was told one or the other - not both and I think because trying to get one could mess up trying to get the other in short. I really don't know what all that maybe the pro. has that the public is not aware of but was shot down for one reason or another as far as it being part of the trial itself. There also was a hugh public out cry for this case to go to trial. If there was more to be found, or say if more is found in this new investigation-maybe it would have been different if Gibbons would have waited for more possible evidence, etc., but he did delay, then he did take it to court. So, it is almost like damn if you do and damn if you don't. But I do think they had enough evidence to convict KJ, even if the prosecution made mistakes. This is only my opinion, he walked.

[upallnight]

I agree that both RPD and the prosecution let down Nona, her family and their constituents. RPD could have started off on a better foot by securing the scene and wearing gloves for instance. When Waid fell down on the job re: KJ's car, it should have been noted in their daily sit downs and someone else should have taken up the slack. And in the seemingly long time that it took for Gibbons to file charges against Kevin, he could have been insisting that more of the evidence collected was tested. The State should have foreseen what questions the defense would ask of their witnesses on cross examination and should have done a better job rehabilitating them. And the State could have done a much better job of presenting the circumstantial elements of the case. Not much you can say about Gibbons changing the motive.

This is true.

[upallnight]

Here's where you and I differ guppie . . . it is my opinion that the prosecution had every bit of the information they needed to convict Jones but due to their own presentation and explanation of the evidence, they lost. People have been convicted on less than a bloody print on a light bulb. Money or not, the evidence was there.

Slam Dunk! I agree!

[upallnight]

Isn't a prosecutorial position generally considered a better training ground than a defensive one? And I can certainly imagine the degree of burnout that plague prosecutors.

There ya go! So true.

[ifIwereU]

Interesting. . . almost like Kevin knew what he was doing. Weird.

if its true...it is very interesting and IMO revelant considering his actions at the scene....and regardless what anyone says he should have known better....I don't care how many people get on here and try to justify his actions....especially if you have no medical training....I bet if you polled a gruop of people about what you should do if you find someone serious injured and unconscienous...most would probably agree that you should never move them because you could cause more injury....that maybe wishful thinking on my part.

[upallnight]

Sorry, I was reading through many posts at one time and did not catch the quote.
No, it is not my only lie. I attend confession weekly to keep as short a list as possible between me and The Man.
Wow Christina, you and I do have something in common, I was raised by a Catholic Mom. Baptist Dad, now there is a big difference in the two. No really, I have such wonderful parents. They was very involved strict parents, now I am glad they was. I once went to school with a guy that was later convicted for murder and given the death sentence. Eric Nance was his name. His sister was a good friend of mine, she was involved in some of the same school activities as I so we spent a good bit of time together. She is the one who turned stuff in on Eric that eventually convicted him. Eric was in some of my classes. I once went to see a movie with him, my parents of course went along or should I say took us. Funny, my dad said, I just don't care for that young man, there is just something about him that don't seem right. So, of course-I never went anywhere with him again. I was around him, in classes-at church, etc., and spent much time being around him in such ways. I watched him go from nice to nasty once in biology class. Back then you could not verbally attack a teacher with out your butt meeting a paddle from the principle. Eric tried to hit our teacher also, he jumped over the table where we was doing our frog operations and went straight to the teach. What started it all was Eric smarted off to the teach, the teach called him a "Birdbrain" in response in a joke way just as Eric had smarted off to him, then Eric lost it. I could not believe he did even that, but he went down hill from there really. To the day they executed him, he said the killing was an accident. They proved otherwise. Don't get me wrong, from what I understand he had mental problems that came out that I never wittnessed as we grew into young adults. Funny how my Dad seem to have a bad feeling about him. He never put him down, it was just his way of letting me know I did not have his approval to ever be with Eric other than the school, church, softball, etc., things that was supervised by responsible adults. One day after our dance team practice his Sister needed a ride home, that was ok by my parents I thought, the problem was, Eric showed up and wanted a ride home to. I knew what my Dad had said, I did not want to be mean to her or him. I lied and said I had to go and get my little brother that I had forgot so I could not take either one of them home because I would have to wait until he was done with baseball practice to go home. Eric lived right down the road from me and we was on the opposite side of town and so was my brothers baseball practice. I left, called my Mom at work and told her I would pick up my brother if that was ok. She said that is fine but he has a ride home from my aunt. Long story end result, I picked my brother up but I lied to my friend and her brother. Later I felt bad so I told my parents exactly why I picked up my brother that day. Dad said, well you lied and that was wrong. But given the circumstances I understand why you lied but if you ever get into a position like this again just say I can't and leave it at that because you was not suppose to be driving anywhere except to practice and then home. In other words, I did not have their permission to take home even Eric's sister. My intensions was good, but I lied. Not sure why I just typed this other than to let you know I to have lied and learned from it. The Eric thing, well I love my parents dearly, and use to think, why are they so strick and want to know everything I do. Well, there ya go! Right is right and wrong is wrong and they taught me, no matter what I do that they love me, but I am responsible for my own actions and the course of my life depended on the decisions I make and it is my choice on how to live my life. OK, enough of that-sorry for the drama. C-Ya!

[upallnight]

Now that made me laugh! :hat:
Me to!

[upallnight]

excellent post. did the prosec post all these things (and more) up together and in bold print for the jury to see, at least during closing?
You go girl!
Should have been you go girl for Jonikay-Sorry got lost between cooking and posting, ugggghhhhh!

[upallnight]

The many inconsistencis (contaminating the scene, lies about relationships and his relationship with Nona, when phone calls to Nona were made, when he got to the station, the straight contradiction of granny's account of when he got to the station, the fact that he didn't mention seeing granny at the station during at least one interrogation, his drug use, failing classes, partying, why he didn't have keys, the holes in his alibi) expert testimony that stated the print had to have been made at time of murder, motive, they should have capitalized on his many inconsistencies, testimony about his actions at the crime scene, his actions following her murder . . . if I think of more, I will post. Every inconsistency was just swept over by the prosecution. He should have been slammed for the inconsistencies. The weird testimony from Jordan Harris in which the defense made him talk about sex with Nona to the point of embarrassment should have been stopped, the smokescreens the defense put up in relation to Trey York should have been blown down, all smokescreens that insulted the intelligence of the jurors (IMO) should have been blown , JM should have testified to eliminate reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors . . .

Oops! You go girl! To Jonikay-Good Post!

[TJEddie]

Upallnight, this forum would be a poorer place without you.

[guppie]

Not sure guppie but I think it was KJ and possibly his family that hired these attorney's instead of "if you can not afford an attorney one will be appointed for you". I think the requirement of both sides having attorney's for them that is appointed is there, but I think KJ & Family bought what they wanted based on what ever information they had of this team. I am not so sure if KJ had a court appointed attorney, instead of these 3 he had, he would have been walking around any where except prison.

i think you and i are saying the same thing in different wording. :)
i have read jonikay's very good points about the investigation. there were things like the police investigators not checking kevin's car for blood. i can't get over that. but although the prosec may not have had a lot of physical evidence pointing to KJ, they certainly had overwhelming circumstantial evidence IMO. there are many cases with this type of circumst. evidence that end in conviction, just not usually where defendants have a high-paid dream team!

[upallnight]

Interesting. . . almost like Kevin knew what he was doing. Weird.

OMG, this is scary and seems to add insult to injury & worse, I agree very weird.

[upallnight]

Upallnight, this forum would be a poorer place without you.
Uh oh, sorry!

[upallnight]

i think you and i are saying the same thing in different wording. :)
i have read jonikay's very good points about the investigation. there were things like the police investigators not checking kevin's car for blood. i can't get over that. but although the prosec may not have had a lot of physical evidence pointing to KJ, they certainly had overwhelming circumstantial evidence IMO. there are many cases with this type of circumst. evidence that end in conviction, just not usually where defendants have a high-paid dream team!

ok,:beer:

[Amy]

if its true...it is very interesting and IMO revelant considering his actions at the scene....and regardless what anyone says he should have known better....I don't care how many people get on here and try to justify his actions....especially if you have no medical training....I bet if you polled a gruop of people about what you should do if you find someone serious injured and unconscienous...most would probably agree that you should never move them because you could cause more injury....that maybe wishful thinking on my part.

And I think very few (well, really no one) would describe their resuscitation actions as lying on top of the victim and running their hands thru the blood to try to see how long she had been lying there. Even without ANY CPR training, bet none of them would even think of doing it KJ's way.

In fact, I'm betting that the majority of people would say they would ask the dispatcher what they should be doing, if they did not already know CPR.