Nona Dirksmeyer, 2005 Miss Arkansas pageant contestant found dead in her apartment

[hawgustusgloop]

I know Dennis and Patty Whieside to be upstanding people. Yes, if I were related I would request certain behavoirs. However, these are not youngsters or even teenagers, these are adult children. As you know, you can only request things from them, they make their own decisions.

IIRC, the young woman you decided to post the trashy rumor about is not an adult.

[FDInLaw]

IIRC, the young woman you decided to post the trashy rumor about is not an adult. Please be careful how you state things. Conversation has been productive today. Let's all do our best to keep it that way. (Pretty please! :o )

[lorettalockhorn]

IIRC, the young woman you decided to post the trashy rumor about is not an adult.


Correct, she is eighteen or older but not of drinking age. I do find it strange that she would want to party with her alleged attacker(s). I also find it strange that he/they would want to party with her.

If my son had been such a party animal while he was in college that it was rumored around the county or on message boards; I would have broken his plate. But hey, that's just me.

[hawgustusgloop]

Please be careful how you state things. Conversation has been productive today. Let's all do our best to keep it that way. (Pretty please! :o )

I apologize. I just find it somewhat offensive, even if the person being discussed (the accuser) doesn't have the best reputation, when someone takes GOSSIP and posts it as a FACT. I believe the same person who posted that rumor chided me for using "in my opinion" in my posts. I think a little more caution is in order.

[FDInLaw]

Correct, she is eighteen or older but not of drinking age. I do find it strange that she would want to party with her alleged attacker(s). I also find it strange that he/they would want to party with her.

If my son had been such a party animal while he was in college that it was rumored around the county or on message boards; I would have broken his plate. But hey, that's just me.

That and breaking a literal plate over his head! :cuss:

(J/K ~ I hope I would not resort to violence! :o )

[christina]

I've wondered this question for some time (and maybe it was answered), was the party in question in Dennis and Patty's home? If this is the case, certainly they could "request" that it not happen again. MOO

Patty's and she was out of town at the time I believe. They have since "requested"(that's one way to put it) and there has not been another.

[christina]

I apologize. I just find it somewhat offensive, even if the person being discussed (the accuser) doesn't have the best reputation, when someone takes GOSSIP and posts it as a FACT. I believe the same person who posted that rumor chided me for using "in my opinion" in my posts. I think a little more caution is in order.

As I clearly stated previously- disclaimer, I am know the Whiteside so you can easily infer then that I will be a bit defensive about Patty and Dennis being drug into things.
Please excuse me however, you are correct. I did not see it with my own eyes, thus it is a rumor.
My intent was not to chide you about the use of that expression. I am sorry if it came across that way.

[FDInLaw]

I apologize. I just find it somewhat offensive, even if the person being discussed (the accuser) doesn't have the best reputation, when someone takes GOSSIP and posts it as a FACT. I believe the same person who posted that rumor chided me for using "in my opinion" in my posts. I think a little more caution is in order. I see your point. For the sake of the tone of conversation on the board it might be best just to report a post that you feel is inappropriate. Don't give Freshwater grounds to give you an infraction over it! You know I'm not a perfect saint either, I just felt I should say something. It's been days since I've actually enjoyed being on the board, guess I just didn't want to see more problems.

(((((((HUGS))))))) ~ FD

:rose:

[FDInLaw]

Patty's and she was out of town at the time I believe. They have since "requested"(that's one way to put it) and there has not been another.
Good for them! It would sure help the family's image if they made this known publicly. MOO

:patriot:

[lorettalockhorn]

With all the issues the defense raised at the hearing, I suspect that either the prosecution has some serious problems OR the defense is just creating drama and doing their own little publicity stunt. If the former is true, it sure overshadows there being a few "Justice For Nona" bumper stickers around town. In time we will know. This next hearing should be a good indicator. All MOO.

Now that I'm refreshed, I get the point of this post a little better. I think that the State will have some issues to overcome and I also think that the defense is taking advantage of the fact that some of their case/evidence is being reported at long last.

[christina]

Good for them! It would sure help the family's image if they made this known publicly. MOO

:patriot:

I'm thinking the Courier will not be calling them for an interview :)

[hawgustusgloop]

ITA. I've heard good things about Gibbons and certainly don't plan to discount him.

Regarding your other thought; I sorta disagree. There are a number of possible contributing factors as to why the arrest took three months. Not only were the labs slow at processing the evidence, but I'm sure the investigators clocked a lot of hours doing interviews, etc. There was also a behavioral analysis done that involved the FBI. The following is from the PCS (note the date); "In addition, on March 22,2006, Affiant consulted with members of the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit and discussed the evidence collected in this case to include video taped statements of Kevin Jones, crime scene photos and autopsy findings. It was also the opinion of the members of the FBI Behavioral Science team that the actions of Jones at the crime scene were a deliberate attempt to destroy the crime scene and to provide an explanation for the presence of any incriminating trace evidence." IMO it's not safe to assume that any one thing held up the arrest. Gibbons has a reputation for being thorough, and now we'll see if this pays off during the trial.

From the language in the PCS, which so far hasn't been proven to be the best use of words ever, it looks like they consulted with the FBI Behavioral Analysis unit on only one day, March 22. Didn't someone on the prosecution team actually take a trip there at some point? It sounds like someone went there (to FBI headquarters) and just had a meeting where the Behavioral Science people reviewed all the evidence, watched the videotaped statements, looked at the autopsy reports, etc. Maybe there never was an official report. It doesn't sound like they submitted the evidence to the FBI, waited some period of time, and then received a written report of their conclusions. Maybe it was just a face-to-face meeting with several agents. Maybe that was one of the "loose ends" Gibbons wanted to tie up. Perhaps he had his opinion of what likely happened and who was likely involved, but he wanted a "second opinion" to make sure K.Jo's behavior fit in with what their experts would have thought the perpetrator would exhibit.

All my speculative opinion only.

[FDInLaw]

Now that I'm refreshed, I get the point of this post a little better. I think that the State will have some issues to overcome and I also think that the defense is taking advantage of the fact that some of their case/evidence is being reported at long last. And we are all so VERY happy you finally took a shower! :biggrin:






(You're gonna kill me. . . . :chicken: )

[christina]

I see your point. For the sake of the tone of conversation on the board it might be best just to report a post that you feel is inappropriate. Don't give Freshwater grounds to give you an infraction over it! You know I'm not a perfect saint either, I just felt I should say something. It's been days since I've actually enjoyed being on the board, guess I just didn't want to see more problems.

(((((((HUGS))))))) ~ FD

:rose:

Wait a minute, how come hawgustusgloop got a hug and I didn't?

BTW, I do understand the need to report a post that is pure rumor and would support that.

[christina]

Christina, will you be attending the hearin on the 29th or the trial?

I hope to. Anyone else?

[FDInLaw]

Wait a minute, how come hawgustusgloop got a hug and I didn't?

BTW, I do understand the need to report a post that is pure rumor and would support that.

((((((((HUGS!))))))) ~ FD

:)

[FDInLaw]

I hope to. Anyone else? I wish I could. . . *snif* :(

[christina]

((((((((HUGS!))))))) ~ FD

:)

Thanks, but seriously, it is important to me to be a legitimate contributor. Being held accountable for my comments by other posters is part of that.

[christina]

I wish I could. . . *snif* :(


Hope I remember a notebook and pen this time!

[christina]

From the language in the PCS, which so far hasn't been proven to be the best use of words ever, it looks like they consulted with the FBI Behavioral Analysis unit on only one day, March 22. Didn't someone on the prosecution team actually take a trip there at some point? It sounds like someone went there (to FBI headquarters) and just had a meeting where the Behavioral Science people reviewed all the evidence, watched the videotaped statements, looked at the autopsy reports, etc. Maybe there never was an official report. It doesn't sound like they submitted the evidence to the FBI, waited some period of time, and then received a written report of their conclusions. Maybe it was just a face-to-face meeting with several agents. Maybe that was one of the "loose ends" Gibbons wanted to tie up. Perhaps he had his opinion of what likely happened and who was likely involved, but he wanted a "second opinion" to make sure K.Jo's behavior fit in with what their experts would have thought the perpetrator would exhibit.

All my speculative opinion only.

Good analysis. A report on it would help tie up that loose end. And as I said earlier, they could have left that off the probable cause statement with no problem. Because it was there and the statement was released to the paper(made very public) it helped the judge in his decision to move the venue.

[lorettalockhorn]

And we are all so VERY happy you finally took a shower! :biggrin:






(You're gonna kill me. . . . :chicken: )

Gimme a break! :punch:

[christina]

Will you accept my mea culpas?

[hawgustusgloop]

Will you accept my mea culpas?

As long as they come with a dictionary so I know what mea culpas are.:)

Yes, I actually left you some positive rep points earlier thanking you for the nice post you made.

[christina]

As long as they come with a dictionary so I know what mea culpas are.:)

Yes, I actually left you some positive rep points earlier thanking you for the nice post you made.


Oh, I do not know how to check that stuff. Its like being in elementary school again, I get demerits then I get positive points! I am sure the demerits will retunr agian though!!

Mea culpa- latin for my fault. You see Catholics saying it as they put there hand to their chest during prayer of confession. It is sort of like "my bad".

[FDInLaw]

Gimme a break! :punch::lol:









(If you can't catch me you're really out of shape! . . . :chicken: )

[lorettalockhorn]

From the language in the PCS, which so far hasn't been proven to be the best use of words ever, it looks like they consulted with the FBI Behavioral Analysis unit on only one day, March 22. Didn't someone on the prosecution team actually take a trip there at some point? It sounds like someone went there (to FBI headquarters) and just had a meeting where the Behavioral Science people reviewed all the evidence, watched the videotaped statements, looked at the autopsy reports, etc. Maybe there never was an official report. It doesn't sound like they submitted the evidence to the FBI, waited some period of time, and then received a written report of their conclusions. Maybe it was just a face-to-face meeting with several agents. Maybe that was one of the "loose ends" Gibbons wanted to tie up. Perhaps he had his opinion of what likely happened and who was likely involved, but he wanted a "second opinion" to make sure K.Jo's behavior fit in with what their experts would have thought the perpetrator would exhibit.

All my speculative opinion only.

Maybe the prosecution has requested a written report to present to the defense; guess we'll find out next week. It seems that if they are refusing to cooperate with the discovery motion that the judge would have been critical and loud enough for The Courier reporter to have noticed.

[FDInLaw]

As long as they come with a dictionary so I know what mea culpas are.:)

Yes, I actually left you some positive rep points earlier thanking you for the nice post you made.

Oh, I do not know how to check that stuff. Its like being in elementary school again, I get demerits then I get positive points! I am sure the demerits will retunr agian though!!

Mea culpa- latin for my fault. You see Catholics saying it as they put there hand to their chest during prayer of confession. It is sort of like "my bad".
Me so happy! :)

[FDInLaw]

Someone needs to tell "Suga" that they need 50 posts before their feed back counts for anything. :biggrin:



Come on, post already! We're not that mean!

[lorettalockhorn]

Will you be attending the trial?

No, despite my interest, it's too far for me to go on the off chance that I would get a seat, there are people who are vitally connected to this case who will want to be there. If space is limited, it seems unfair for outsiders to take up space. Leroy wants me to go but I have too many chores in the summer and he's not volunteering to help!

[christina]

Christina, your post count is quickly rising. Have you become a junkie like the rest of us? Did you see yourself posting this much?

I was thinking about that recently. No, I did not picture it but I find I look forward to when I get on here and read. Its like meeting with a group. Wierd and definitely unexpected. Thanks for inquiring.

[FDInLaw]

No, despite my interest, it's too far for me to go on the off chance that I would get a seat, there are people who are vitally connected to this case who will want to be there. If space is limited, it seems unfair for outsiders to take up space. Leroy wants me to go but I have too many chores in the summer and he's not volunteering to help!

Well Leroy is right! We need you there! Besides, you could sit with christina! (Then both of you can let us know what the other is like :D ).

[lorettalockhorn]

Someone needs to tell "Suga" that they need 50 posts before their feed back counts for anything. :biggrin:



Come on, post already! We're not that mean!

And someone should tell her/him that I've already been dinged for that same post. My point being that I consider the source more than the actual negative comment.

[lorettalockhorn]

:lol: She got me again today, too. I have been dinged by Suga and Sammy72902 on the most innocuous posts. In my case, I think they just wanted an outlet to call me some nasty names.

Yep, Sammy is one of two people who called me a name. But considering the source, it was easy to blow off. Some people are just here to start problems. :punch: You have to laugh.

[FDInLaw]

:lol: Oh man, I'm rolling on the ground . . . this is too funny!

"Pour some suga on me. . . " :biggrin:

I'll catch you all later! :seeya:

[christina]

:lol: She got me again today, too. I have been dinged by Suga and Sammy72902 on the most innocuous posts. In my case, I think they just wanted an outlet to call me some nasty names.

Ok, I am totally lost on who suga is and what was said and by whom and what a ding is!

I am also lost on how to figure out the whole points thing. I looked at the list MsQ told me to and am now going to ahve to spend time figuring out how to give back to others?!?!


My husband has requested I spend some time with him this evening so this is my exit. Talk/read later.

[FDInLaw]

hehe You are quick, but that was a while ago! I :chicken: ed out. :hat: I guess you drew me out...

Yes, that's exactly what I mean...... A big R., AR


"Hello to everyone!"
I'm sorry christina, didn't mean to leave you out. Here's one of suga's posts. :seeya:

Oh, and a "ding" is negative feed back.

Enjoy your time with your hubby!

[JR2007]

From the language in the PCS, which so far hasn't been proven to be the best use of words ever, it looks like they consulted with the FBI Behavioral Analysis unit on only one day, March 22. Didn't someone on the prosecution team actually take a trip there at some point? It sounds like someone went there (to FBI headquarters) and just had a meeting where the Behavioral Science people reviewed all the evidence, watched the videotaped statements, looked at the autopsy reports, etc. Maybe there never was an official report. It doesn't sound like they submitted the evidence to the FBI, waited some period of time, and then received a written report of their conclusions. Maybe it was just a face-to-face meeting with several agents. Maybe that was one of the "loose ends" Gibbons wanted to tie up. Perhaps he had his opinion of what likely happened and who was likely involved, but he wanted a "second opinion" to make sure K.Jo's behavior fit in with what their experts would have thought the perpetrator would exhibit.

All my speculative opinion only.
Prosecutor David Gibbons said he would not comment further on specific evidence, because he wanted Jones to receive a fair trial in Pope County. He did say that the delay in filing charges in the case came because he was waiting for evidence from the FBI crime lab. That information was received last week, but Gibbons' would not describe the nature of the evidence.

Investigators also say that Jones watched crime-related programs on television and allege that he may have used information from those programs in an attempt to tamper with evidence in the case.


The affidavit filed in circuit court on Friday indicates how authorities believe Jones tampered with the crime scene. It details what Jones did when he saw his girlfriend laying on the ground: "He laid on top of the body and rubbed his hands over the blood to see how fresh it was."



According to detectives and the FBI Behavioral Science Team, "the actions of Jones at the crime scene were a deliberate attempt to destroy the crime scene and to provide an explanation for the presence of any incriminating evidence."


Police also say Jones may have planted evidence. A condom wrapper was found in the kitchen, but no condom was found. Investigators say the wrapper was "placed on the counter to make it appear as if rape was a motive for the attack."
http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=9528&pid=217208&mode=threaded&show=&st=&#entry217208

[lorettalockhorn]

Prosecutor David Gibbons said he would not comment further on specific evidence, because he wanted Jones to receive a fair trial in Pope County. He did say that the delay in filing charges in the case came because he was waiting for evidence from the FBI crime lab. That information was received last week, but Gibbons' would not describe the nature of the evidence.

Investigators also say that Jones watched crime-related programs on television and allege that he may have used information from those programs in an attempt to tamper with evidence in the case.


The affidavit filed in circuit court on Friday indicates how authorities believe Jones tampered with the crime scene. It details what Jones did when he saw his girlfriend laying on the ground: "He laid on top of the body and rubbed his hands over the blood to see how fresh it was."



According to detectives and the FBI Behavioral Science Team, "the actions of Jones at the crime scene were a deliberate attempt to destroy the crime scene and to provide an explanation for the presence of any incriminating evidence."


Police also say Jones may have planted evidence. A condom wrapper was found in the kitchen, but no condom was found. Investigators say the wrapper was "placed on the counter to make it appear as if rape was a motive for the attack."
http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=9528&pid=217208&mode=threaded&show=&st=&#entry217208

Thanks for posting.

[jonikay]

I really hope that the true killer will be exposed during the trial. It is obvious that the defense is grasping for straws, looking for ways to stall or mistrial. I think the battery was taken out of the phone in an inadvertent way to erase data. I remember when I used to think the SIM card and the battery were together, kind of the same thing. I'm sure that murder can become quite stressful and in the midst of things, the killer quickly yanked the battery, thinking all data would be lost. Also, according to what I've read in the paper in the past, the phone was handed over to Dipert after the PD allegedly had no other need for it, ie the crime lab had already processed evidence and collected SIM card data. Granted, it was stupid, but it doesn't lead me to expect Dipert at all. I understand that there was a history of abuse between KJ and Nona (just first-hand rumor) and IF that's the case, Dipert had a justified dislike for KJ. In reference to abuse, or anger, Hiram also has issues with it, taking into account his throwing the chair through the RPD windows. All people get angry, etc., but the connection has it's place in the courtroom during a murder trial. KJ's character will be picked apart. I believe that his character involves his choices made after the murder to go to parties and indulge in questionable behaviors/action. That is all part of his character. I'll bet that the defense will also pick apart Nona's character (her history of sexual/physical abuse, self-esteem . . .).

[FDInLaw]

I really hope that the true killer will be exposed during the trial. It is obvious that the defense is grasping for straws, looking for ways to stall or mistrial. I think the battery was taken out of the phone in an inadvertent way to erase data. I remember when I used to think the SIM card and the battery were together, kind of the same thing. I'm sure that murder can become quite stressful and in the midst of things, the killer quickly yanked the battery, thinking all data would be lost. Also, according to what I've read in the paper in the past, the phone was handed over to Dipert after the PD allegedly had no other need for it, ie the crime lab had already processed evidence and collected SIM card data. Granted, it was stupid, but it doesn't lead me to expect Dipert at all. I understand that there was a history of abuse between KJ and Nona (just first-hand rumor) and IF that's the case, Dipert had a justified dislike for KJ. In reference to abuse, or anger, Hiram also has issues with it, taking into account his throwing the chair through the RPD windows. All people get angry, etc., but the connection has it's place in the courtroom during a murder trial. KJ's character will be picked apart. I believe that his character involves his choices made after the murder to go to parties and indulge in questionable behaviors/action. That is all part of his character. I'll bet that the defense will also pick apart Nona's character (her history of sexual/physical abuse, self-esteem . . .). History of abuse? I believe Kevin committed this crime based on the evidence, but I haven't seen anything tangible to support the claim that he physically abused Nona. Emotional abuse, maybe. . . but not physical abuse. MOO

:confused:

[FDInLaw]

Gasp! Who woulda done such a thing! There are no positive effects to negative reinforcement.:no: Who left the other one?

"Who woulda done such a thing!"

:confused:

I'm getting tired of the negative reinforcement. :(

[christina]

I really hope that the true killer will be exposed during the trial. It is obvious that the defense is grasping for straws, looking for ways to stall or mistrial. I think the battery was taken out of the phone in an inadvertent way to erase data. I remember when I used to think the SIM card and the battery were together, kind of the same thing. I'm sure that murder can become quite stressful and in the midst of things, the killer quickly yanked the battery, thinking all data would be lost. Also, according to what I've read in the paper in the past, the phone was handed over to Dipert after the PD allegedly had no other need for it, ie the crime lab had already processed evidence and collected SIM card data. Granted, it was stupid, but it doesn't lead me to expect Dipert at all. I understand that there was a history of abuse between KJ and Nona (just first-hand rumor) and IF that's the case, Dipert had a justified dislike for KJ. In reference to abuse, or anger, Hiram also has issues with it, taking into account his throwing the chair through the RPD windows. All people get angry, etc., but the connection has it's place in the courtroom during a murder trial. KJ's character will be picked apart. I believe that his character involves his choices made after the murder to go to parties and indulge in questionable behaviors/action. That is all part of his character. I'll bet that the defense will also pick apart Nona's character (her history of sexual/physical abuse, self-esteem . . .).

I have never heard anything about prior abuse in their relationship. What do you mean by "first hand" rumor? If that is true, it would not fit that her family listed Jones in the obituary as her finace. And I read other places (here maybe?)that they were shocked to find out he was the suspect.
It seems we all agree though, that we will have to wait until the trial before many things are revealed.

[FDInLaw]

I have never heard anything about prior abuse in their relationship. What do you mean by "first hand" rumor? If that is true, it would not fit that her family listed Jones in the obituary as her finace. And I read other places (here maybe?)that they were shocked to find out he was the suspect.
It seems we all agree though, that we will have to wait until the trial before many things are revealed.

(Channel Seven) "Did Nona ever say, ‘Kevin has a bad temper?’ "

(Carol Dipert, victim’s mother) "Never. That was completely unlike the Kevin I knew."


http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0306/315437.html

[optimumprimal78]

Good morning all,

I had heard that they were constantly off-again and on-again, hence the dating of other people that both of them supposedly did. I agree with jonikay in that I figure they had gotten everything out of the phone that they needed, i.e. text messages, sim card, phone numbers, etc., and decided that it would be alright to give it back. If they had ANY reason to suspect Dipert then they would have pursued him more.

I think that they are going to try to show that Jones going to parties and continuing to have certain associations shows that he has little regard for the fact that he is out on bond and is about to be on trial for murder. That is what I think they will focus on in regards to character (among other things, like him dropping out of school)

[christina]

(Channel Seven) "Did Nona ever say, ‘Kevin has a bad temper?’ "

(Carol Dipert, victim’s mother) "Never. That was completely unlike the Kevin I knew."


http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0306/315437.html

Thanks for the link.

[lorettalockhorn]

I really hope that the true killer will be exposed during the trial. It is obvious that the defense is grasping for straws, looking for ways to stall or mistrial. I think the battery was taken out of the phone in an inadvertent way to erase data. I remember when I used to think the SIM card and the battery were together, kind of the same thing. I'm sure that murder can become quite stressful and in the midst of things, the killer quickly yanked the battery, thinking all data would be lost. Also, according to what I've read in the paper in the past, the phone was handed over to Dipert after the PD allegedly had no other need for it, ie the crime lab had already processed evidence and collected SIM card data. Granted, it was stupid, but it doesn't lead me to expect Dipert at all. I understand that there was a history of abuse between KJ and Nona (just first-hand rumor) and IF that's the case, Dipert had a justified dislike for KJ. In reference to abuse, or anger, Hiram also has issues with it, taking into account his throwing the chair through the RPD windows. All people get angry, etc., but the connection has it's place in the courtroom during a murder trial. KJ's character will be picked apart. I believe that his character involves his choices made after the murder to go to parties and indulge in questionable behaviors/action. That is all part of his character. I'll bet that the defense will also pick apart Nona's character (her history of sexual/physical abuse, self-esteem . . .).

I don't understand the use of the phrase "first-hand rumor". If it was firsthand, wouldn't it be an admission by one of the parties involved rather than a rumor? I do find it hard to believe that the Diperts would be unaware of abuse.

[Mishell1383]

Kind of off topic but did you guys see this?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3304493
it scared me for a minute than I realized it wasn't "that" Kevin Jones, weird huh?

[jonikay]

ok everyone . . . by first-hand rumor, I mean a great, long friend of mine along with other friends of the two have witnessed abuse from kj towards Nona. I did not mean for my post to sound accusatory. That is why I used the word "rumor." I added "first-hand" in there because it wasn't just word on the streets. I am part of a sort of network of friends that included kj and Nona. My husband is from the area, was great friends of kj's older brother and was friends with Nona. She even sang at my wedding at my husband's request. Even though many in the Dover area claim that they are surprised that kj has been convicted, it seems that those closer to Nona were suspicious of kj as soon as they found out what had happened to Nona. I should not have even mentioned that being that it is a rumor, but doesn't some sort of abuse (emotional, physical, verbal) fall into the same broad category of jealousy, rage, paranoia, and murder? If kj did it, do all of you think it was a spur of the moment action, or do you think it was a long time coming, based on the couple's history, the evidence, and the behavioral analysis? Arguments can get very heated when two people with strong feelings for one another are at odds. Some of you may not have heard the "rumor" I presented, but sociopathic behavior has been mentioned more than a few times. IF kj shows "sociopathic behaviors" as has been mentioned more than a few times, don't you think that involved abuse to some extent?:shrug:

[jonikay]

It is rather likely for a parent, especially one that does not live with his/her child, to not know that any kind of abuse is going on with his/her child. Has it been established whether or not Nona had a job at the time of her death? Either way, it is difficult to confide in a parent if abuse is happening in any relationship. By Nona's history of abuse that may come to light during the trial, I mean the abuse that she spoke of during her pageant platforms. Doesn't she state that she has overcome a childhood of abuse? Poor Nona could never escape the ghosts haunting her. Anyway, once the two graduated high school, it seems like that is when the two really started growing apart and when KJ began losing control of the life he has always known, possibly including his relationship with Nona. My parents weren't aware of the abuse my sister was involved in until long after the tumultuous relationship. Families sometimes keep tons of horrible secrets like that. Hypothetically speaking for one moment. . . let's say kj murdered Nona. Does one seriously think that when he killed her (still hypothetically speaking), this was the one and only time kj lost his temper with her? The one and only time he lost his temper, he kills her? Does everyone think that the actions kj took were spur of the moment, or a long time coming, based on the evidence, kj's actions, and the behavioral analysis? In my opinion, if kj did it, there had to have been clues leading to a horrid conclusion (death not the only conclusion)--this is where my rumor comes in. Perhaps it is silly for me to believe what I've heard, but IMO, It is just a possible clue of further treatment Nona would possibly endure. I think it is only realistic to state, if one thinks kj did it, that there was serious trouble brewing for a long time.

[lorettalockhorn]

Jonikay, so glad that you came back to post again.

I don't have a problem believing that KJ was abusive at all; he strikes me as having a keen sense of entitlement which might extend to Nona. If/when Nona was thinking of ending her relationship with him, I can well imagine that he would be enraged at the thought of losing his trophy, jealous of her other relationships, and possibly stalking her.

Their last night together strikes me as curious. KJ stayed late at her apartment and they had a very late phone convo, yet she had at least one test the next day. I would have expected her to turn in much earlier, so I've often wondered if they were arguing or breaking up that night.

You're probably right that many adult children might not tell the parents if abuse was going on. I guess that I expected that because of Nona's childhood experiences, she would be attuned to the dangers of an abusive relationship and maybe would have confided in her Mom, now that she had been open about the past. I mean no disrespect to Nona or her Mother here and hope that my wording isn't harsh.

[jonikay]

You know, oftentimes childhood abuse can extend into adulthood and victims of childhood abuse often enter into abusive relationships as adults . . . just a thought . . .
I'll bet that Nona and KJ were fighting the night before the murder. I remember fighting with my former boyfriend into the night and it always seemed to happen before something important. I think that is where manipulation and emotional abuse comes in, if in fact Nona and KJ were fighting. As a way of controlling Nona, KJ (maybe even without thinking) sought to manipulate Nona's successful life by possibly interfering with her grades, ie making her so emotionally drained and physically tired that her performance may be hindered. Since KJ wasn't doing well in school, or had dropped out by that time (which one was it?), I can't remember which, that part of his life had failed and it made clear that Nona's now successful life was, in his eyes, making him look bad. Also, I believe she had at least 2 tests that day, one she attended and one she didn't make it to. I am also now thinking that this is possibly why Nona was naked at the time of her murder. She was tired, woke up in just enough time to make it to her test, spoke with an instructor and went home to take a quick shower (possibly explaining the panties in the pants)/study before her next test only a few hours away . . . hmmm, I'll bet that was exactly what happened the night before. :beer:

[sololobo]

I do not know Jones or anyone else in his circle of relationships. All I know about him is his reported past history. Granted, that is not very extensive and is "surface" information:) I am no expert, but several things publicly known, barring rumors, about him would tend to exclude him from being a sociopath.

We know he was an honor graduate and he scored relatively high on SAT/ACT college entrance exams. Sociopaths tend to barely scrap by in school, focusing on "con" to obtain passing grades rather than academic effort. He may have fooled his teachers but not standardized college entrance tests.

He had long term friendships. Sociopaths tend to have a lot of "new" friends and very few old friends. Sociopaths easily discard "friends" and replace them with new "friends" (sociopaths do not have friends as we know it, they have acquaintances). And friends tend to distance themselves from sociopaths as they get to know them better.

He had a long term relationship with Nona. Sociopaths tend to move from lover to lover, tending never to form a long term relationship with any one individual.

He worked two jobs so he could attend the University of Arkansas which was evidently a long term goal. Sociopaths do not tend to have long term goals nor would they tend to work two jobs or any at all, to achieve such goals.

If Jones is a sociopath, he would tend to have been a holy terror between the ages of 15 and 18. His behavior during these formative years would have been hard to overlook and dismiss by anyone who knew him well.

Of course, none of the above is absolute. Notice my extensive use of the word tend:)

Granted, some good points about antisocial personality disorder were made by jonikay if the rumors prove to be true and if Jones did murder Nona. And yes, if the prosecution can prove sociopathic past behaviors, this could be bad news for the defense. However, I don't know if he is the killer nor do I know of any deviant past behavior. And I won't know, one way or the other, until I see more evidence at the trial.

The only mention of him being a sociopath I recall is a statement by Mr. Dipert after he was informed of evidence of Jones' quilt, foremost being the bloody print, I assume. I would be more confident in that diagnosis if it had come from a mental health professional:) I'm sure we will hear from many of them, pro and con, at the trial.

[sololobo]

The "planted" condom wrapper still puzzles me. Why "planted" rather than a potential motive? I re-read statements by Det. Frost and he appears to be articulate, intelligent and very professional. Since he claims the condom wrapper was planted to imply rape, I can only conclude he observed something else contrived at the crime scene that would indicate the wrapper was planted.

Nona's state of undress also puzzles me and perhaps this pertains to Det. Frost's belief the wrapper was planted. Were there any indications of Nona's clothes being removed after the murder? If so, were her bloody clothes found at the scene? Or did the killer take them with him and set out another set of clothes from her closet to make it appear she had been wearing those? Were the clothes she wore to Tech that morning found?

There was blood evidence in various locations in the kitchen. Why was the murderer rumaging around the kitchen? Looking for cleaning supplies? Or a after-murder snack:(? Or perhaps a trash bag to remove bloody clothes from the scene?

[sololobo]

Clothes were found at the scene- don't know which ones. Where did you read of blood in the kitchen? I think I missed that. But, the possiblilities to that question are endless. Maybe they struggled in the kitchen prior to the killing? Who knows? Something I have always wonder about Frost's inflection on the condom wrapper-- since when do rapist's wear condoms? I mean I guess one would, so DNA evidence could not be found. But even by doing so, it could spill out of the condom and still be found. I mean literally it would be the victim's word against the offender's word even if DNA was matched to someone. I have not heard of a lot or rapists wearing condoms, but that is just me. JMO

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15073&Search=dirksmeyer

It was in a Courier article after the last hearing.

[FDInLaw]

ok everyone . . . by first-hand rumor, I mean a great, long friend of mine along with other friends of the two have witnessed abuse from kj towards Nona. I did not mean for my post to sound accusatory. That is why I used the word "rumor." I added "first-hand" in there because it wasn't just word on the streets. I am part of a sort of network of friends that included kj and Nona. My husband is from the area, was great friends of kj's older brother and was friends with Nona. She even sang at my wedding at my husband's request. Even though many in the Dover area claim that they are surprised that kj has been convicted, it seems that those closer to Nona were suspicious of kj as soon as they found out what had happened to Nona. I should not have even mentioned that being that it is a rumor, but doesn't some sort of abuse (emotional, physical, verbal) fall into the same broad category of jealousy, rage, paranoia, and murder? If kj did it, do all of you think it was a spur of the moment action, or do you think it was a long time coming, based on the couple's history, the evidence, and the behavioral analysis? Arguments can get very heated when two people with strong feelings for one another are at odds. Some of you may not have heard the "rumor" I presented, but sociopathic behavior has been mentioned more than a few times. IF kj shows "sociopathic behaviors" as has been mentioned more than a few times, don't you think that involved abuse to some extent?:shrug:
Thank you for the clarification! If your friends did witness Kevin abuse Nona in any way please strongly encourage them to contact Gibbons. If this was true of their relationship the jury needs to hear it. MOO

[christina]

Thank you for the clarification! If your friends did witness Kevin abuse Nona in any way please strongly encourage them to contact Gibbons. If this was true of their relationship the jury needs to hear it. MOO

Good word. Why, if anyone witnessed abuse, have they not already contacted the prosecution?

[FDInLaw]

Good word. Why, if anyone witnessed abuse, have they not already contacted the prosecution? I don't know. One possible reason is that taking the stand scares people. Also, it might endanger or strain personal relationships. For example, if the rape allegations were true, it would have taken a great deal of courage for Chelsea to testify against her best friends. . . she would have had to be willing to sacrifice these relationships for the truth. Not an easy thing to do and one that takes a great deal of character. MOO

[christina]

What is the consensus of the posters of when a rumor is acceptable and when it is not?

I am not being cheeky here, I really do want to understand. As you have read, I have shared things I thought pertinent and have been told they were rumors. Yet jonikay's insights are causing quite a thread.

So, please give me your feedback!

[christina]

Awful strong statement there. Were you present?

Agreed Ms Q, this is conjecture, trying to get into someone's mind/motives.

[FDInLaw]

What is the consensus of the posters of when a rumor is acceptable and when it is not?

I am not being cheeky here, I really do want to understand. As you have read, I have shared things I thought pertinent and have been told they were rumors. Yet jonikay's insights are causing quite a thread.

So, please give me your feedback! Great question to bring up. In my response to Jonikay I used the word "if" and this is my admission that I will not believe there was abuse until a credible source is willing to come forward. I think it is vital that everything written on this board and others is taken with a grain of salt. As much as possible I try to base my opinions on known facts. As far as dealing with rumors, some folks present rumors so that they can get fed back and have the rumor confirmed or rejected based on facts. . . the motive is to get to the truth. There have been times where rumors have been presented as fact in an attempt to slander or perpetrate falsehoods. This is obviously unacceptable. I'll have to go back and read where you have been told your thoughts were just rumors. I guess a rumor is something that has not been proved factual. In Jonikay's case, she believes something is fact because she trusts her sources. She was wise enough to realize that it would only be a "rumor" for the rest of us because we do not know her or her sources. I sincerely hope that IF there is any truth to what she is saying her sources will come forward so that we can all decide for ourselves whether or not what she deems fact is. MOO

[christina]

Great question to bring up. In my response to Jonikay I used the word "if" and this is my admission that I will not believe there was abuse until a credible source is willing to come forward. I think it is vital that everything written on this board and others is taken with a grain of salt. As much as possible I try to base my opinions on known facts. As far as dealing with rumors, some folks present rumors so that they can get fed back and have the rumor confirmed or rejected based on facts. . . the motive is to get to the truth. There have been times where rumors have been presented as fact in an attempt to slander or perpetrate falsehoods. This is obviously unacceptable. I'll have to go back and read where you have been told your thoughts were just rumors. I guess a rumor is something that has not been proved factual. In Jonikay's case, she believes something is fact because she trusts her sources. She was wise enough to realize that it would only be a "rumor" for the rest of us because we do not know her or her sources. I sincerely hope that IF there is any truth to what she is saying her sources will come forward so that we can all decide for ourselves whether or not what she deems fact is. MOO

Thank you for that feedback. I do not though, want to dredge up the past posts I had that bothered people! I will move forward.....

[christina]

I don't know. One possible reason is that taking the stand scares people. Also, it might endanger or strain personal relationships. For example, if the rape allegations were true, it would have taken a great deal of courage for Chelsea to testify against her best friends. . . she would have had to be willing to sacrifice these relationships for the truth. Not an easy thing to do and one that takes a great deal of character. MOO

I can not understand doing anything less than bringing the truth to light. As Westley said.......

[christina]

The "planted" condom wrapper still puzzles me. Why "planted" rather than a potential motive? I re-read statements by Det. Frost and he appears to be articulate, intelligent and very professional. Since he claims the condom wrapper was planted to imply rape, I can only conclude he observed something else contrived at the crime scene that would indicate the wrapper was planted.

Nona's state of undress also puzzles me and perhaps this pertains to Det. Frost's belief the wrapper was planted. Were there any indications of Nona's clothes being removed after the murder? If so, were her bloody clothes found at the scene? Or did the killer take them with him and set out another set of clothes from her closet to make it appear she had been wearing those? Were the clothes she wore to Tech that morning found?

There was blood evidence in various locations in the kitchen. Why was the murderer rumaging around the kitchen? Looking for cleaning supplies? Or a after-murder snack:(? Or perhaps a trash bag to remove bloody clothes from the scene?

While I appreciate some of your thoughts here, there are very few murders in Pope County and or Russellville. All detectives at the RPD have little to no experience with murder scenes. And Det Frost is the officer that used bad judgement in the releasing of evidence. His testimony is key to the prosecution yet he is now open to be torn up by the defense.

[lorettalockhorn]

I do not know Jones or anyone else in his circle of relationships. All I know about him is his reported past history. Granted, that is not very extensive and is "surface" information:) I am no expert, but several things publicly known, barring rumors, about him would tend to exclude him from being a sociopath.

Agree with you there; he seems more like a narcissist to me. I don't recognize the names of any psych experts on the witness list, so we may never know if KJ has any pathological traits.

The "planted" condom wrapper still puzzles me. Why "planted" rather than a potential motive? I re-read statements by Det. Frost and he appears to be articulate, intelligent and very professional. Since he claims the condom wrapper was planted to imply rape, I can only conclude he observed something else contrived at the crime scene that would indicate the wrapper was planted.

What I have assumed is that Frost thinks that the condom was planted because the DNA doesn't match any of the original or final suspect(s).

Also, the PCS is surely just an abstract. There is probably much evidence that we don't know about.

[lorettalockhorn]

What is the consensus of the posters of when a rumor is acceptable and when it is not?

I am not being cheeky here, I really do want to understand. As you have read, I have shared things I thought pertinent and have been told they were rumors. Yet jonikay's insights are causing quite a thread.

So, please give me your feedback!

I don't have a problem with rumors as long as it is made clear that they are exactly that. People who don't want to read rumors clearly stated as rumor can easily skip over them.

I suppose that we have no way of knowing whether or not anyone who ever witnessed any abuse has come forward.

[christina]

Agree with you there; he seems more like a narcissist to me. I don't recognize the names of any psych experts on the witness list, so we may never know if KJ has any pathological traits.



What I have assumed is that Frost thinks that the condom was planted because the DNA doesn't match any of the original or final suspect(s).

Also, the PCS is surely just an abstract. There is probably much evidence that we don't know about.

You state a fact here- dna not matching anyone in the mix- where is your source on that?
I overheard two people at the hearing say that dna had not been taken from anyone other than Jones.

[lorettalockhorn]

You state a fact here- dna not matching anyone in the mix- where is your source on that?
I overheard two people at the hearing say that dna had not been taken from anyone other than Jones.

No ma'am. I said that what I have assumed is that the DNA didn't match any of the suspects including Kevin. Sorry for the lack of clarity. I am trying to be more careful in my wording as I have offended some.

[jonikay]

ok . . . I take this forum as a way to sift through opinions, facts, evidence, behaviors, actions, and rumors/speculations in order to figure out the truth. I clearly stated that it was "rumor." I did not mean it to be the truth and did not expect anyone to believe it. I believe that the extent of this rumor needed to be seen on this forum. Anyone can take it as they want. I tend to believe that if if if kj killed nona, it wasn't just a horrible aftermath of a one-time loss of temper. If he killed her, I believe it was a long time coming. I believe I've said this and I'll say it again. If he killed her, it was building up in him for awhile and in order for a murder to occur, the most heinous of crimes, there had to be evidence of some sort of abuse (even if it's manipulation, etc.) in their relationship previously. Of course, this is my speculation, which I am sure is ok to post on such a forum as this, as I've seen speculations in the past. Serious question for the crime library jury . . . if it was kj that killed Nona, do you think that the abuse (that resulted in her murder) was a one-time occurrence or was it the one and only time anything abusive had ever happened between the two?

[jonikay]

guys, you can reread my post again if you like. . . I wrote it is my "understanding" that abuse occurred, and my posts was littered with "ifs." I am not stating that this happened, but it does make some things more clear to me, but lots of other things do as well. Isn't "rumor," especially when it is made absolutely clear that it is rumor on several occasions, allowed on this forum? I was not trying to sway anyone into believing anything, just putting what I have heard into the mix in order to possibly make sense of it all. Everything doesn't have to be such an issue here. You take one subject of the whole matter and pick it apart, just like the sim card and the phone being taken by Mr. Dipert and all the rape allegations, I mean it has been proven that all of that was just "rumor," right? And people here are still talking about it. :mad:

[lorettalockhorn]

guys, you can reread my post again if you like. . . I wrote it is my "understanding" that abuse occurred, and my posts was littered with "ifs." I am not stating that this happened, but it does make some things more clear to me, but lots of other things do as well. Isn't "rumor," especially when it is made absolutely clear that it is rumor on several occasions, allowed on this forum? I was not trying to sway anyone into believing anything, just putting what I have heard into the mix in order to possibly make sense of it all. Everything doesn't have to be such an issue here. You take one subject of the whole matter and pick it apart, just like the sim card and the phone being taken by Mr. Dipert and all the rape allegations, I mean it has been proven that all of that was just "rumor," right? And people here are still talking about it. :mad:

Rumors don't bother me; they could very well be grounded in truth. Something caused someone to kill Nona (even though it isn't necessary for the prosecution to prove motive). It's obvious that we don't have complete understanding of all the evidence. I simply don't have a problem with the discussion of facts or rumors either one; and it's not really up to us as posters to decide who posts what.

[optimumprimal78]

Can someone tell me why there are 5+ pages missing? Just curious.

[FDInLaw]

Can someone tell me why there are 5+ pages missing? Just curious.
:confused: I hadn't notice! Were Merrick and Brooklyn's posts deleted?

[FDInLaw]

ok . . . I take this forum as a way to sift through opinions, facts, evidence, behaviors, actions, and rumors/speculations in order to figure out the truth. I clearly stated that it was "rumor." I did not mean it to be the truth and did not expect anyone to believe it. I believe that the extent of this rumor needed to be seen on this forum. Anyone can take it as they want. I tend to believe that if if if kj killed nona, it wasn't just a horrible aftermath of a one-time loss of temper. If he killed her, I believe it was a long time coming. I believe I've said this and I'll say it again. If he killed her, it was building up in him for awhile and in order for a murder to occur, the most heinous of crimes, there had to be evidence of some sort of abuse (even if it's manipulation, etc.) in their relationship previously. Of course, this is my speculation, which I am sure is ok to post on such a forum as this, as I've seen speculations in the past. Serious question for the crime library jury . . . if it was kj that killed Nona, do you think that the abuse (that resulted in her murder) was a one-time occurrence or was it the one and only time anything abusive had ever happened between the two?

guys, you can reread my post again if you like. . . I wrote it is my "understanding" that abuse occurred, and my posts was littered with "ifs." I am not stating that this happened, but it does make some things more clear to me, but lots of other things do as well. Isn't "rumor," especially when it is made absolutely clear that it is rumor on several occasions, allowed on this forum? I was not trying to sway anyone into believing anything, just putting what I have heard into the mix in order to possibly make sense of it all. Everything doesn't have to be such an issue here. You take one subject of the whole matter and pick it apart, just like the sim card and the phone being taken by Mr. Dipert and all the rape allegations, I mean it has been proven that all of that was just "rumor," right? And people here are still talking about it. :mad:

I totally agree, this is great place to sift through what we have heard. You presented what you did as rumor and not fact, we the group are sifting it by asking questions. That's what we do. :) I understand your frustration. There is a lot of speculation that is based on little or nothing IMO. Don't let it get to you!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. ~ FD

[FDInLaw]

:confused: I hadn't notice! Were Merrick and Brooklyn's posts deleted?

I just took a spin around the thread, and sure enough I could not find one post by Brooklyn or Merrick. That should explain the missing pages.

[lorettalockhorn]

:confused: I hadn't notice! Were Merrick and Brooklyn's posts deleted?

FD, FH2O posted earlier that all of her posts would be deleted; don't remember which thread it's in.

Re: the condom wrapper; it is mentioned in the PCS but no mention of DNA or fingerprints that I recall. I will assume that when LE received the DNA evidence through discovery that they revisited the case to address that evidence. I don't know who "the two" were who stated that no one other than KJ submitted DNA, but I would hope that either the original suspects would gladly provide samples or if not, that there would have been some sort of motion to compel testing by either the state or the defense. Maybe that happened and it hasn't been reported by the press. If the DNA could exonerate KJ, wouldn't the charges have been dropped by now?

I guess that I will assume that Frost and the prosecution still thinks that the DNA doesn't match any of the original or final suspects. I think that there is much, much information that we don't know.

[jonikay]

Regarding susieq's comment . . . I KNOW the phone thing with Mr. Dipert is NOT a rumor. I have followed the case since day one. The alleged rape involving Jones and Whiteside was however, rumor. Yet, it continues to be talked about here. So what, right? Whether or not all of this is relevant to the trial is not my job to decide. Whether or not rumors of past abuse are truly rumors or real facts , I don't know. I do know that it has been looked into, friends of both parties have been interviewed in the past and I'm sure the probability of the "rumor" I've presented has been exhausted by the authorities. I did not follow this forum until several months after the murder and sometimes, months go by before I am able to "catch up" here. Is there a problem that this rumor wasn't mentioned a long time ago for you? If so, write it off or don't believe what I have presented. I don't care what you do. I believe that someone who is capable and actually murders someone does a lot more behind closed doors than the general public may ever know. I believe that Nona was trying, to no avail, to leave the volatile relationship with ease. I really think this is what cost her her life. Let me reiterate my use of the words "believe" and and "think" so no one gets on my case about this. Haven't we discussed in the past our theories and speculations of what happened that night and the days/hours leading up to the murder? This is what I have done, ie taken into account what I KNOW and what I have HEARD as a way to piece the puzzle together. Does everyone believe that if kj did it, it was the one and only time he has ever shown violent behaviors?

[christina]

FD, FH2O posted earlier that all of her posts would be deleted; don't remember which thread it's in.

Re: the condom wrapper; it is mentioned in the PCS but no mention of DNA or fingerprints that I recall. I will assume that when LE received the DNA evidence through discovery that they revisited the case to address that evidence. I don't know who "the two" were who stated that no one other than KJ submitted DNA, but I would hope that either the original suspects would gladly provide samples or if not, that there would have been some sort of motion to compel testing by either the state or the defense. Maybe that happened and it hasn't been reported by the press. If the DNA could exonerate KJ, wouldn't the charges have been dropped by now?

I guess that I will assume that Frost and the prosecution still thinks that the DNA doesn't match any of the original or final suspects. I think that there is much, much information that we don't know.

After what I over heard I am concerned that at trial it will come out that the prosecution did not get anyone elses finger prints or dna.
It was not dna evidence that led to the charge against Jones. He admitted to being at the scene since he found the victim.

[christina]

Regarding susieq's comment . . . I KNOW the phone thing with Mr. Dipert is NOT a rumor. I have followed the case since day one. The alleged rape involving Jones and Whiteside was however, rumor. Yet, it continues to be talked about here. So what, right? Whether or not all of this is relevant to the trial is not my job to decide. Whether or not rumors of past abuse are truly rumors or real facts , I don't know. I do know that it has been looked into, friends of both parties have been interviewed in the past and I'm sure the probability of the "rumor" I've presented has been exhausted by the authorities. I did not follow this forum until several months after the murder and sometimes, months go by before I am able to "catch up" here. Is there a problem that this rumor wasn't mentioned a long time ago for you? If so, write it off or don't believe what I have presented. I don't care what you do. I believe that someone who is capable and actually murders someone does a lot more behind closed doors than the general public may ever know. I believe that Nona was trying, to no avail, to leave the volatile relationship with ease. I really think this is what cost her her life. Let me reiterate my use of the words "believe" and and "think" so no one gets on my case about this. Haven't we discussed in the past our theories and speculations of what happened that night and the days/hours leading up to the murder? This is what I have done, ie taken into account what I KNOW and what I have HEARD as a way to piece the puzzle together. Does everyone believe that if kj did it, it was the one and only time he has ever shown violent behaviors?

I agree with MsQ and hope that since you have had this information first hand of prior abuse for a while, you are putting forth effort encouraging your friends to speak to the prosecution.
As for a murder being the only time someone shows violent behavoir- yes, I believe it is possible. I also believe there are plenty of violent people who have never committed murder.

[christina]

FDInLaw- I have had trouble today logging on to the post and posting once I did log on. Any other reports on this?

Not that my family wasn't happy with me spending more time with them?!!?

[lorettalockhorn]

After what I over heard I am concerned that at trial it will come out that the prosecution did not get anyone elses finger prints or dna.
It was not dna evidence that led to the charge against Jones. He admitted to being at the scene since he found the victim.

I think that we here are all well aware that DNA evidence didn't lead to the arrest. And he was at the scene and called/spoke to 911 from the scene, so that point would be hard to refute.

Honestly, if LE didn't investigate anyone else, I'm sure that many people will be honked off (especially if Kevin is found not guilty and the taxpayer's money may have been wasted). Maybe that will come out at trial; maybe KJ's attorney's will hammer LE about how and whom they investigated. I am wondering why the defense didn't investigate the source of the DNA themselves if what you say about LE is true. Wouldn't they want the charges against KJ dropped so that the true killer could be prosecuted?

Do you think that this was a stranger killing? Or is the defense planning to out the killer at trial and Kevin is willing to let suspicion continue stymie his life until then?

[christina]

I think that we here are all well aware that DNA evidence didn't lead to the arrest. And he was at the scene and called/spoke to 911 from the scene, so that point would be hard to refute.

Honestly, if LE didn't investigate anyone else, I'm sure that many people will be honked off (especially if Kevin is found not guilty and the taxpayer's money may have been wasted). Maybe that will come out at trial; maybe KJ's attorney's will hammer LE about how and whom they investigated. I am wondering why the defense didn't investigate the source of the DNA themselves if what you say about LE is true. Wouldn't they want the charges against KJ dropped so that the true killer could be prosecuted?

Do you think that this was a stranger killing? Or is the defense planning to out the killer at trial and Kevin is willing to let suspicion continue stymie his life until then?

I thought they asked for the charges dropped already. Wasn't there a motion on this?

I can not imagine the defense knows who the killer is and has been holding back that information only to out the killer at the trial ala tv.

Do I think it could possibly be a stranger who killed the victim? Yes, I believe that is possible. I believe it is unlikley though.

[lorettalockhorn]

I thought they asked for the charges dropped already. Wasn't there a motion on this?

I can not imagine the defense knows who the killer is and has been holding back that information only to out the killer at the trial ala tv.

Do I think it could possibly be a stranger who killed the victim? Yes, I believe that is possible. I believe it is unlikley though.

I believe that you are correct. (Does that mean that the DNA evidence actually carries little weight? :shrug: )

I cannot imagine that either; it's too Perry Mason. Although I have a relative who is an attorney and who was able to get a witness to confess to a crime while on the witness stand during a trial. (Strange, but true.)

I'm with you; Nona knew her murderer. (I still think that there is tons that we don't know.

[christina]

I believe that you are correct. (Does that mean that the DNA evidence actually carries little weight? :shrug: )

I cannot imagine that either; it's too Perry Mason. Although I have a relative who is an attorney and who was able to get a witness to confess to a crime while on the witness stand during a trial. (Strange, but true.)

I'm with you; Nona knew her murderer. (I still think that there is tons that we don't know.

But we are closer to the trial and hopefully closer to knowing!

[JR2007]

Regarding susieq's comment . . . I KNOW the phone thing with Mr. Dipert is NOT a rumor. I have followed the case since day one. The alleged rape involving Jones and Whiteside was however, rumor. Yet, it continues to be talked about here. So what, right? Whether or not all of this is relevant to the trial is not my job to decide. Whether or not rumors of past abuse are truly rumors or real facts , I don't know. I do know that it has been looked into, friends of both parties have been interviewed in the past and I'm sure the probability of the "rumor" I've presented has been exhausted by the authorities. I did not follow this forum until several months after the murder and sometimes, months go by before I am able to "catch up" here. Is there a problem that this rumor wasn't mentioned a long time ago for you? If so, write it off or don't believe what I have presented. I don't care what you do. I believe that someone who is capable and actually murders someone does a lot more behind closed doors than the general public may ever know. I believe that Nona was trying, to no avail, to leave the volatile relationship with ease. I really think this is what cost her her life. Let me reiterate my use of the words "believe" and and "think" so no one gets on my case about this. Haven't we discussed in the past our theories and speculations of what happened that night and the days/hours leading up to the murder? This is what I have done, ie taken into account what I KNOW and what I have HEARD as a way to piece the puzzle together. Does everyone believe that if kj did it, it was the one and only time he has ever shown violent behaviors?

Jonikay: I see nothing wrong with stating Rumors, theories, Hypotheses or Facts as long as they are clearly stated which they are. Thank you for giving us your thoughts.:)

[lorettalockhorn]

[/B]

But we are closer to the trial and hopefully closer to knowing!

Amen!

(And that's a big part of why I don't understand people getting bent out of shape over what people believe at this point.)

[jonikay]

I am with you, Loretta! All things deemed relevant to the people that really matter will be brought to light during the trial. Hopefully, justice will be served as a result. I believe that everyone involved in the case are remaining tight-lipped, to say the least, about all the details of the case.:)

[sololobo]

I thought they asked for the charges dropped already. Wasn't there a motion on this?

I can not imagine the defense knows who the killer is and has been holding back that information only to out the killer at the trial ala tv.

Do I think it could possibly be a stranger who killed the victim? Yes, I believe that is possible. I believe it is unlikley though.



With what little I know about this case, it would not surprise me if it was a stranger, nor would it surprise me if it was Jones. I have considered many scenarios and a few involve strangers and some involve individuals she knew, including Jones. First, I will post one of my favorite scenarios involving a stranger or at least someone Nona did not know very well. Later, I will post one involving Jones.

I did not know Nona, but from all I've read about her, I know I would have like her. Everyone would have like her. It is difficult to understand why anyone who knew her could be driven to murder her. "She fed stray cats at her door so they wouldn't go hungry", this simple quote speaks volumes about her character. She was a loving and caring person.

Yes, she was abused as a child. So often abused children grow up to be exact copies or mirror images of their abuser. But not Nona, she overcame her abusive past and became a champion for abused children. Ending child abuse became a driving force in her life, a passion she would carry to the end of her life.

What would Nona do if she saw evidence of child abuse? I'm sure she would report it and possibly record the evidence some way, perhaps with photos taken with a camera cell phone. The following is pure speculation with a lot of "ifs" and "maybes".

Nona observes evidence of possible child abuse and takes pictures of it with her camera phone. The abuser finds out about it and goes to her apartment to find out her intentions. She opens the door and he barges in. She tells him she is going to report him and give the police the photos. He attacks her and finally hits her with the floor lamp. He has blood on his hands and coat. (That day was cold and windy.)

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KRUE/2005/12/15/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

With a dish towel or paper towel to avoid leaving fingerprints, he searches the kitchen, leaving traces of blood there, for a trash bag to put his bloody coat in and then decides to make it appear to be an attempted rape. He carefully removes Nona's bloody clothes and stuffs them into the bag with his coat. He strews a set of clothing from her bedroom around to make it appear she had been wearing those. He takes a condom from his wallet and tears it open not realizing he's leaving DNA evidence and places the condom wrapper on the kitchen counter. He puts the condom in the bag.

He deletes the incriminating photos from her phone and removes the battery to make sure they are deleted. He places the battery in the trash bag, leaving the phone behind. He has heard of cell phones being traced and didn't want to chance that. He searches her PC for picture files to see if she uploaded the cell phone pictures. He finds none or deletes any he finds. The last photo he views is of a beauty pageant contestant.

He now must make his exit. He locks the deadbolt on the front door, flips the light switch off, careful not to leave fingerprints but leaving traces of blood, and looks out the window to see if anyone is outside. The coast is clear. He turns the light back on. He goes to the back sliding glass door, pulls the blinds back carefully to not to leave fingerprints but does leave blood traces and peers down W. 12 St. No oncoming traffic. He then looks down S. Inglewood and again nothing coming. He checks to see if anyone is outside the back of the apartments and removes the stick securing the door. Oops, fingerprints on the stick. He places it in the bag, opens the door and puts the latch in lock position. He quickly exits with the bag, closes the door, locking it, and walks between the buildings containing apt 12 and 13. He checks again for anyone outside the front and hurries to his "mystery" car and leaves.

Sloppy and somewhat imaginitive, but some variation of the above is possible. But as Christina noted, improbable.

[sololobo]

Now, one scenario with Jones the killer.

Jones goes to Nona's apartment after she returns from her morning test. They go to her bedroom and undress. Jones finds a condom wrapper and confronts Nona about it. They argue and Nona walks down the stairs followed by Jones. He places the condom wrapper on the counter and the argument becomes physical, eventually resulting in her death.

He turns off the light, leaving blood on the switch, and looks out the window to see if anyone is outside. He locks the deadbolt and turns the light back on. He goes to the back sliding door and pulls back the blinds with the back of his hand, no fingerprints but leaving blood traces, to see if anyone is out there. He goes to the kitchen to wash the blood off himself in the sink and leaves blood traces in the kitchen. He deletes any incriminating evidence on Nona's phone and removes the battery to make sure it’s deleted. He leaves the phone, remembering cell phones can be tracked, and decides to take the battery with him so no one can replace it before the trace charge depletes.

He puts his clothes on, no blood on them, and again checks the front for any possible witnesses. After deciding it would be more likely to be recognized going out the front, he goes to the back sliding glass door and looks for oncoming traffic from W. 12 and S. Inglewood. The coast is clear. He picks up the stick, oops fingerprints, and decides to take it with him. After checking to see if anyone is in the back of the apartments, he opens the sliding door, puts the latch in lock position, steps out and slides the door shut, locking it. He walks between the buildings housing apt. 12 and 13, checking again for witnesses. He proceeds to his car and leaves.

Some variation of this is possible. The trial should bring out all of the missing details and will hopefully pinpoint the killer.

[FDInLaw]

FDInLaw- I have had trouble today logging on to the post and posting once I did log on. Any other reports on this?

Not that my family wasn't happy with me spending more time with them?!!?
Huh. . . I haven't heard anything, but then I was not on the site much yesterday (nor will I be today). Anyone else have problems? :shrug:

You might ask a moderator, they would have a better idea.

[jonikay]

I may be mistaken, but I was thinking that at one point, kj's defense team did their own investigations around the same time the prosecution did. I will research further, but I am thinking that the defense team tested at least some of the evidence for dna other than that of Jones. Has anyone else heard this?
ok, according to previous courier articles, the defense team has conducted their own dna tests on the condom wrapper and the lamp. They didn't get to the phone in time. If the defense is suspicious of Jeremy Martin (which they are), could they do a comparison of fingerprints, etc. on their own? Surely, but I don't know . . .
I also did a search for Jeremy Martin in Arkansas Tech's database, thinking he was a student there at some point. It brought up "0" matches. So, if he was a student, he isn't anymore.

[jonikay]

There was also a 22 year old Jeremy Martin involved in an anti-immigration protest in Dardanelle dated May 23, 3005. This is probably the same Jeremy Martin. He was said to be from Russellville.

[lorettalockhorn]

Solo, I enjoyed reading both of your scenarios. The only thing that I would find fault with the stranger theory, is that since Nona would have had her phone with her to take pictures, she probably would have immediately called 911 to report the abuse.

Re: Additional DNA testing; it was pointed out that the statement was made that KJ is the only person to have been tested. That would mean more to me if I knew if the statement was made under oath, by the State or defense, or an observer from the peanut gallery. So drat it all, we'll have to wait. Unless maybe the press recaps and adds any information that hasn't been previously reported. I still can't help but think that additional suspects were at least printed. If not, it will add to the frustration that people already have with RPD's obvious blunders; the phone leaving chain of custody for instance.

At this point, I'm sure that both sides are concentrating on how the other side will conduct its questioning of witnesses and how they will direct the mien of the trial.

Absolutely people here have gotten bent out of shape, hence the namecalling. I see no reason to denigrate the thinking processes or beliefs of others. It is the killer who should be disparaged.

[hawgustusgloop]

What is the consensus of the posters of when a rumor is acceptable and when it is not?

I am not being cheeky here, I really do want to understand. As you have read, I have shared things I thought pertinent and have been told they were rumors. Yet jonikay's insights are causing quite a thread.

So, please give me your feedback!

I don't personally think it is bad to post a rumor, as long as it is prefaced with something like, "I wasn't there to see this, so I have no idea if it's really true but I was told.........." or "There is unconfirmed gossip going around that.......," etc. As long as it is made clear in the post that what you are saying could be totally false and shouldn't be construed as absolute fact, rumors are ok with me. BUT, I am not a moderator, so you might want to check out the house rules here at CL Message Boards to find out what is really acceptable and not acceptable.

[lorettalockhorn]

I don't personally think it is bad to post a rumor, as long as it is prefaced with something like, "I wasn't there to see this, so I have no idea if it's really true but I was told.........." or "There is unconfirmed gossip going around that.......," etc. As long as it is made clear in the post that what you are saying could be totally false and shouldn't be construed as absolute fact, rumors are ok with me. BUT, I am not a moderator, so you might want to check out the house rules here at CL Message Boards to find out what is really acceptable and not acceptable.


To the best of my recollection, rumors posted here have been labelled as such; I don't have a problem with that. I am somewhat curious as to why some people have been criticized for posting them while others have not. Double standard maybe? I didn't see anything specifically regarding rumors in the posting guidelines. I'm sure that Freshwater would have cautioned us while visiting our forum if it was a problem.

I don't even mind getting dinged for not disapproving of rumors if labelled as such. We all have different beliefs and there will always be someone trying to tell the rest of us how to post.

[Amy]

Asking me an opinion of lawyers-That is an open door to lots of comments and jokes?!?!?!

Ok, here goes- prosecution- Gibbons is typical Arkansas, big and lumbering, does not come across as sharp always, slow in his answers sometimes. His deputy- Phillips is VERY sharp, quick, comes across as well prepared, his experience as a defense attorney will help him guess at the other side. He is well groomed, unlike Gibbons, and I would guess more affable to the jury. Phillips is a good cross examiner, good at follow up questions, but can get very intense.

Defense, the lead-Johnson(?) had a pleasant but serious look about him, all his questions and comments were measured, obviously thought out. I could not picture him ever losing control in front of the jury, very southern genteman type. Second lawyer-Robbins, a little more like Phillips without as much experience. He shaves his head and has a goatee which could put jurors off. Third one(forget his name-argued the blood eveidence), did not have a very good courtroom presence but was super intelligent, obviously knew case law and quoted much without having to look at his notes.

Just re-read this and feel like I was doing color commentary for Court TV?!?!

Ah, maybe a new job for you in the future? lol. Really, tho, thanks for the description of the lawyers. Seems like each side has several personalities, to cover different areas. Makes sense.

[christina]

Makes me think things are looking better and better for the defense all the time.

The business end of a floor lamp, like the one posters have said was present, is what? My guess is up near the top, near the switch. Correct?

[hawgustusgloop]

Makes me think things are looking better and better for the defense all the time.

Welcome back, suga! I tend to agree with you here. The few details that have emerged in the wake of the last hearing make K.Jo's chances of acquittal seem slightly better than what I thought they were before. So, IMO his attorneys are doing a good job. Then again, there is still so much we don't know yet.

All my opinion only.

[hawgustusgloop]

The business end of a floor lamp, like the one posters have said was present, is what? My guess is up near the top, near the switch. Correct?

Great question. That attorney sure chose an ambiguous phrase. I guess you could interpret "business end" either way, especially in this situation. I would think maybe the top, like you suggest, where someone might hold it if they were to swing it and hit someone in the head with the base. However, I have often heard this phrase used in reference to a gun, and the business end is the part where the bullet comes out, not where the trigger is, right? Or that's what I thought, anyway. So I guess in this instance, the "business end" could also possibly be the base, AKA the part that allegedly caused the fatal blow. How confusing! :shrug:

[christina]

Great question. That attorney sure chose an ambiguous phrase. I guess you could interpret "business end" either way, especially in this situation. I would think maybe the top, like you suggest, where someone might hold it if they were to swing it and hit someone in the head with the base. However, I have often heard this phrase used in reference to a gun, and the business end is the part where the bullet comes out, not where the trigger is, right? Or that's what I thought, anyway. So I guess in this instance, the "business end" could also possibly be the base, AKA the part that allegedly caused the fatal blow. How confusing! :shrug:

So are we talking floor lamp or table lamp? If table lamp it makes more sense.
Any fingerprints on that are suspect then since it was determined to be the murder weapon.

[jonikay]

IIRC, I believe it is a floor lamp.
I googled "business end" and found this:
Urban Dictionary:
business end:
The section of a tool/device directly responsible for producing the desired effect of that tool/device.
Free Dictionary.com:
The part of a weapon or tool, usually at the front, that inflicts damage or performs work.

hmm . . . In the context of the actual lamp, I would say the business end would be the top. In the context of the murder and of the murder weapon being the lamp, I am leaning towards the business end being the heavy bottom part that surely inflicted the damage.
You know, the floor lamps that are tall and can separate into three pieces just by unscrewing . . . the bulb is hidden at the top by a big bowl, looking attachment. You can get them at Wal-Mart for probably $20. The bottoms are very heavy. I think it is one of those.

[lorettalockhorn]

Great question. That attorney sure chose an ambiguous phrase. I guess you could interpret "business end" either way, especially in this situation. I would think maybe the top, like you suggest, where someone might hold it if they were to swing it and hit someone in the head with the base. However, I have often heard this phrase used in reference to a gun, and the business end is the part where the bullet comes out, not where the trigger is, right? Or that's what I thought, anyway. So I guess in this instance, the "business end" could also possibly be the base, AKA the part that allegedly caused the fatal blow. How confusing! :shrug:

Jones' bloody print was on the bulb, which would be at the top of the lamp (right? I don't have a clue what this lamp looks like.), so I thought that since he referred to other prints that were not KJ's in the same proximity, he meant the top. I too, wished that he was more succinct. The defense is finally getting a chance to get information out; I'd like to understand it better.

[lorettalockhorn]

IIRC, I believe it is a floor lamp.
I googled "business end" and found this:
Urban Dictionary:
business end:
The section of a tool/device directly responsible for producing the desired effect of that tool/device.
Free Dictionary.com:
The part of a weapon or tool, usually at the front, that inflicts damage or performs work.

hmm . . . In the context of the actual lamp, I would say the business end would be the top. In the context of the murder and of the murder weapon being the lamp, I am leaning towards the business end being the heavy bottom part that surely inflicted the damage.
You know, the floor lamps that are tall and can separate into three pieces just by unscrewing . . . the bulb is hidden at the top by a big bowl, looking attachment. You can get them at Wal-Mart for probably $20. The bottoms are very heavy. I think it is one of those.

I would have thought that business end was the base, since it was determined to be the weapon. I take it this other print is unidentifiable?

I'm still confused by how the attorney used the phrase.

[christina]

IIRC, I believe it is a floor lamp.
I googled "business end" and found this:
Urban Dictionary:
business end:
The section of a tool/device directly responsible for producing the desired effect of that tool/device.
Free Dictionary.com:
The part of a weapon or tool, usually at the front, that inflicts damage or performs work.

hmm . . . In the context of the actual lamp, I would say the business end would be the top. In the context of the murder and of the murder weapon being the lamp, I am leaning towards the business end being the heavy bottom part that surely inflicted the damage.
You know, the floor lamps that are tall and can separate into three pieces just by unscrewing . . . the bulb is hidden at the top by a big bowl, looking attachment. You can get them at Wal-Mart for probably $20. The bottoms are very heavy. I think it is one of those.

I know the type, the sections fall apart easily. Gosh, this trial is going to be tough to listen to.

[jonikay]

As mentioned in the probable cause statement, it was a floor lamp.

[jonikay]

The PRC states,
"During affiant’s processing of the crime scene, affiant observed a floor lamp which was located within a few feet of Nona’s body. The lamp was separated in three pieces: a weighted base, a lower portion of the pole and an upper portion of the pole with the light bulb. The weighted base and the light bulb had blood on them. The light bulb had fingerprint impressions which were made in the blood. The fingerprint impression which was made in the blood on the light bulb were compared with known prints of Kevin Jones and the print on the lamp bulb was identified as palm print impression of Kevin Jones"

Now I can almost surely picture this floor lamp in my head. They are very common. The lamps I'm thinking of do have a section where you can separate the lamp into 3 pieces; however, in doing that, the lamp is still intact because cord doesn't come apart and is still all together. I'm sure the lamp was broken in all the hustle and bustle . . . Remember, KJ stated several times that he never touched the lamp upon discovery of the body. I believe that the prosecution team thinks they have enough evidence to convict him without the phone. For instance, his lying about the where and when of the day (photos, statements), the dna evidence (fingerprints on murder weapon), possible advanced fingerprint technology (where fingerprints in blood can be lifted without being seen by the naked eye). The prosecution better watch what they say and how they say it, because that will be where a lot of the weight of the trial will rest, IMO.

Also, lets not forget, it was kj's fingerprint in blood, which means there is no explanation for the fingerprints being on the lamp before the murder ordeal. They couldn't have been there as a result of kj being a regular visitor to the apartment, as I'm sure his dna was found in lots of places. The fingerprints were put there either during the murder or after, which kj attested to. So, IMO, even with all the "tacky talk," and IF we believe kj about him not touching anything but Nona and the greeting card (? which I think is odd), the fingerprints were put there during the murder.

[lorettalockhorn]

As mentioned in the probable cause statement, it was a floor lamp.

I guess since it is rumored that neither the prosecution nor the defense tested fingerprints, that all of the unknown specimens could belong to Nona herself? And not necessarily to the "true killer" or a stranger?

[jonikay]

ok, I believe as well that kj could have touched the lamp without remembering it, but I don't believe at all that the jury is going to hear from the prosecution that kj stated that he did not touch the lamp at the discovery and Ryan stated he did not touch the lamp, and then (the jury) believe that kj may have just forgotten because of the stress of the ordeal, you know? I feel like tacky or not, kj and rw state that the lamp was not touched upon discovery and the jury isn't going to think that he was possibly stressed, but instead they will lean towards the statement that he did not touch it, like he said . . . This is just my opinion, but it would have been in his best interest, whether he did it or not or touched it or not, to have at least said, "listen, I am overwhelmed right now and stressed out, I am not sure what I touched or what I didn't touch." He probably didn't have a lawyer during those crucial days after the murder, if he had, he probably wouldn't have said much at all. When there are 2 people saying it wasn't touched, I think the jury will go with that . . . unless one of the two back track and that may even look worse, you know? There are tons of loose ends . . .

[lorettalockhorn]

ok, I believe as well that kj could have touched the lamp without remembering it, but I don't believe at all that the jury is going to hear from the prosecution that kj stated that he did not touch the lamp at the discovery and Ryan stated he did not touch the lamp, and then (the jury) believe that kj may have just forgotten because of the stress of the ordeal, you know? I feel like tacky or not, kj and rw state that the lamp was not touched upon discovery and the jury isn't going to think that he was possibly stressed, but instead they will lean towards the statement that he did not touch it, like he said . . . This is just my opinion, but it would have been in his best interest, whether he did it or not or touched it or not, to have at least said, "listen, I am overwhelmed right now and stressed out, I am not sure what I touched or what I didn't touch." He probably didn't have a lawyer during those crucial days after the murder, if he had, he probably wouldn't have said much at all. When there are 2 people saying it wasn't touched, I think the jury will go with that . . . unless one of the two back track and that may even look worse, you know? There are tons of loose ends . . .

I think it's absolutely possible that he simply didn't remember touching it too. KJ's statement is evidence that the jury cannot avoid hearing or knowing about, so unless he testifies (and I don't think that he will), that he now remembers that he did, or could have, then it will be up to Ryan or Mom to refute his statement to LE. If one of them can't confirm that he did or might have touched the lamp/bulb, then he will look like a liar. Because somehow at sometime that print ended up in blood, not underneath the blood, tacky or not.

[christina]

Does anyone else find it odd that there were not tons of Jones prints on the lamp/murder weapon? There is only one, it is on the bulb, which is not what you pick a lamp up by, and the print was tacky while the rest of the blood on the bulb was dry. If he committed the murder, why are there not more of his prints all over the lamp?

[sololobo]

Solo, I enjoyed reading both of your scenarios. The only thing that I would find fault with the stranger theory, is that since Nona would have had her phone with her to take pictures, she probably would have immediately called 911 to report the abuse.

"She was a Big Sister to a young girl she had planned to have dinner with on the day she died. “She said this little girl didn’t have just a great life,” Huckabay said."

http://rjames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1145

Perhaps she wanted more information before she went to the police.

[jonikay]

My theory is that the majority of the prints were wiped clean, just like evidence seemed to look planted. I believe that the reason that kj's prints were not all over the murder weapon is because it was wiped clean before the "discovery." I put that in quotations because it may not have been the first time Nona's body was seen after her death, especially by the murderer. If kj says he didn't touch the lamp, he looks like a liar (being that his bloody prints are on it). If kj says he did touch the lamp, he looks like a liar (being that he says he didn't touch it). In that case, RW also looks like a liar, being that he stated that kj didn't touch the lamp upon discovery. At this point, the lamp being touched is a touchy subject. There is no "good" way for kj to turn on this point. Anyway, I believe what could be wiped was and some things were forgotten. That's just IMO.

[jonikay]

If a stranger did it, the stranger will probably never be caught. If it wasn't kj, I don't think anyone will ever be convicted.

[sololobo]

Does anyone else find it odd that there were not tons of Jones prints on the lamp/murder weapon? There is only one, it is on the bulb, which is not what you pick a lamp up by, and the print was tacky while the rest of the blood on the bulb was dry. If he committed the murder, why are there not more of his prints all over the lamp?

Good point. Even if he didn't commit the murder, his prints should be on the lamp from past visits as well as many others' prints, especially Nona"s. Only two prints were found on the lamp? I assume the killer wiped the lamp. If Jones was the killer and wiped the lamp, how did he miss a bloody print?

[sololobo]

Does anyone know if any fingerprints were found on the greeting card or if this was even checked? I assume Jones' bloody prints were on it after he picked it up when he discovered the body. Were any of his prints found on the card that were not bloody? If so, he must have handled it before he discovered the body. If not, more than likely, the first time he touched it would have been after discovering the body.

[christina]

Does anyone know if any fingerprints were found on the greeting card or if this was even checked? I assume Jones' bloody prints were on it after he picked it up when he discovered the body. Were any of his prints found on the card that were not bloody? If so, he must have handled it before he discovered the body. If not, more than likely, the first time he touched it would have been after discovering the body.

After observing the different sides at the hearing, I do not feel confident that the prosecution has its act together and the police investigators did a bad job. I do not think we will be impressed by the evidence and instead will be shocked by what the investigators did not do.
No facts, no rumors, just gut feeling here folks!

[jonikay]

I wish you were wrong, but I don't think you are. I do hope that the jury takes into account the evidence, whether or not the story behind it is strong enough. The evidence doesn't lie, no matter how the investigations were conducted . . . I feel like, even with all the evidence, it may be a tough case to prove. One of the things that will make or break it, IMO, is kj's actions and lies preceding and following the murder. If the jury sees that, it will be hard for the defense to prove anything. If they see his lies (whereabouts, ect.) even if he didn't do it, it will be hard for the defense to move the focus away from that. I think the defense will probably try to focus on the faulty parts of the investigation, as they should.

[lorettalockhorn]

"She was a Big Sister to a young girl she had planned to have dinner with on the day she died. “She said this little girl didn’t have just a great life,” Huckabay said."

http://rjames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1145

Perhaps she wanted more information before she went to the police.

I just cannot think of any scenario where waiting to report would be protocol.

Re: the greeting card; it's mentioned in the PCS, but I don't think that prints or blood are specified.

I think Jonikay is spot on; the alibi is going to be important. And if it can be proven that KJ lied about his whereabouts, the jury may well consider him to be a liar about other matters.

Still a lot that we don't know. I don't think for a minute that the PCS limns the extent of the investigation.

[FDInLaw]

If a stranger did it, the stranger will probably never be caught. If it wasn't kj, I don't think anyone will ever be convicted.

Another thing, what was the motive of the stranger? There was nothing missing and no sexual assault. How did the stranger get in since there was no sign of forced entry? In cases where a stranger commits a crime like this (leaving the body on the scene) there is usually incriminating evidence. There are NO facts, circumstantial or physical, that point to the possibility of a stranger committing this murder. MOO

[FDInLaw]

My theory is that the majority of the prints were wiped clean, just like evidence seemed to look planted. I believe that the reason that kj's prints were not all over the murder weapon is because it was wiped clean before the "discovery." I put that in quotations because it may not have been the first time Nona's body was seen after her death, especially by the murderer. If kj says he didn't touch the lamp, he looks like a liar (being that his bloody prints are on it). If kj says he did touch the lamp, he looks like a liar (being that he says he didn't touch it). In that case, RW also looks like a liar, being that he stated that kj didn't touch the lamp upon discovery. At this point, the lamp being touched is a touchy subject. There is no "good" way for kj to turn on this point. Anyway, I believe what could be wiped was and some things were forgotten. That's just IMO.
Great post! :beer:

[optimumprimal78]

I think it's absolutely possible that he simply didn't remember touching it too. KJ's statement is evidence that the jury cannot avoid hearing or knowing about, so unless he testifies (and I don't think that he will), that he now remembers that he did, or could have, then it will be up to Ryan or Mom to refute his statement to LE. If one of them can't confirm that he did or might have touched the lamp/bulb, then he will look like a liar. Because somehow at sometime that print ended up in blood, not underneath the blood, tacky or not.

The biggest problem is that they have had well over a year to remember what happened.

[hawgustusgloop]

Does anyone know if there has ever been anything published or suggested about where K.Jo was and what he was doing before 1:00 p.m. (or whenever he arrived at the diner), and between the hours of 2 p.m? and 6 p.m. on the day Nona was killed (if he wasn't committing murder and covering it up, of course).

I always assumed he was just supposed to have been at home before he got to the diner, but what about the afternoon? Also, I have often wondered if Nona's killer, whomever it was, returned to the scene to do some cleaning/covering up, or if he stayed until he was finished doing whatever it was and then left. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[FDInLaw]

Does anyone know if there has ever been anything published or suggested about where K.Jo was and what he was doing before 1:00 p.m. (or whenever he arrived at the diner), and between the hours of 2 p.m? and 6 p.m. on the day Nona was killed (if he wasn't committing murder and covering it up, of course).

I always assumed he was just supposed to have been at home before he got to the diner, but what about the afternoon? Also, I have often wondered if Nona's killer, whomever it was, returned to the scene to do some cleaning/covering up, or if he stayed until he was finished doing whatever it was and then left. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

From PCS:

"Kevin Jones was interviewed on December 15th and stated that Jones had last seen Nona at her apartment at approximately 00:3 0 on the 15th when he left her apartment and went to Jones’ parent’s home north of Dover to spend the night. He further stated that he called Nona at approximately 01:30 and talked for a few minutes before going to bed. He then stated he had received a text message from Nona at 09:07 on the 15 . He stated that he stayed at his house until 11:45 at which time he left for his parent’s gas station on Hwy 7 South of Dover. He stated he arrived at the station at noon and while there he talked with Blake Walters. Blake Walters was interviewed and stated that he did not see Jones at the Station until 13:00 on the 15th of December."

[JR2007]

Does anyone know if there has ever been anything published or suggested about where K.Jo was and what he was doing before 1:00 p.m. (or whenever he arrived at the diner), and between the hours of 2 p.m? and 6 p.m. on the day Nona was killed (if he wasn't committing murder and covering it up, of course).

I always assumed he was just supposed to have been at home before he got to the diner, but what about the afternoon? Also, I have often wondered if Nona's killer, whomever it was, returned to the scene to do some cleaning/covering up, or if he stayed until he was finished doing whatever it was and then left. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

It was my understanding that he was suppose to be at work at the gas station owned by his parents. The dinner he worked at was owned by the Bartons. I don't know what time he normally went to work at the station but he told LE he went to work at noon on that day. The guy who was working there at the time KJ showed up said he didn't get there until 1:00 PM.

[FDInLaw]

It was my understanding that he was suppose to be at work at the gas station owned by his parents. The dinner he worked at was owned by the Bartons. I don't know what time he normally went to work at the station but he told LE he went to work at noon on that day. The guy who was working there at the time KJ showed up said he didn't get there until 1:00 PM.
Not to be nit picky, but I don't recall ever reading that Kevin worked that day.

[optimumprimal78]

It was my understanding that he was suppose to be at work at the gas station owned by his parents. The dinner he worked at was owned by the Bartons. I don't know what time he normally went to work at the station but he told LE he went to work at noon on that day. The guy who was working there at the time KJ showed up said he didn't get there until 1:00 PM.

Was it at that point that he changed his story? Kind of like it reminded him?

[hawgustusgloop]

It was my understanding that he was suppose to be at work at the gas station owned by his parents. The dinner he worked at was owned by the Bartons. I don't know what time he normally went to work at the station but he told LE he went to work at noon on that day. The guy who was working there at the time KJ showed up said he didn't get there until 1:00 PM.

Thank you, JR and FD. I wasn't sure if he was supposed to be at his parents gas station or the diner where he worked. I thought I had seen somewhere that he was only there until about 2 p.m. or so, but that may be something I imagined. However, he had to leave at some point. So, when he did leave, where did he go?

My point to all of this is, whatever K.Jo's alibi is for any of the times (including during Nona's murder), the police would have likely questioned him extensively about it. "So, you say you were at home watching TV. OK. What did you watch? Which episode was it/What was discussed, etc." We have not heard much at all about what his alibi is (other than the discrepancy between when K.Jo and the other employee said K.Jo arrived at the gas station), and I think that will be of utmost importance at the trial. After all, if K.Jo was somewhere else when Nona was murdered, he could not have committed the crime. K.Jo's alibi and the extent to which it is verifiable will have a huge impact on the jury, especially when some of the physical evidence will be heavily scrutinized by experts IMO.

[hawgustusgloop]

Not to be nit picky, but I don't recall ever reading that Kevin worked that day.

That always kind of made me wonder. My memory is fuzzy on the details, but I thought the reason he went to the gas station was to work. That is why I also thought it was strange when I thought I had seen that he left around 2 p.m. If he wasn't there to work, then why would he be there for an hour? If he was there to work, why such a short time period? The only reason I could think of was that maybe the employee working there was the only person in the store, and K.Jo went in to work while the other guy took a lunch. If he was there just hanging out and talking to people, I would be very interested to hear their testimony about what kind of mood he was in, etc.

[Mishell1383]

That always kind of made me wonder. My memory is fuzzy on the details, but I thought the reason he went to the gas station was to work. That is why I also thought it was strange when I thought I had seen that he left around 2 p.m. If he wasn't there to work, then why would he be there for an hour? If he was there to work, why such a short time period? The only reason I could think of was that maybe the employee working there was the only person in the store, and K.Jo went in to work while the other guy took a lunch. If he was there just hanging out and talking to people, I would be very interested to hear their testimony about what kind of mood he was in, etc.
maybe he left early to go to the party with his mom LOL what a GREAT alibi! NOT! imo

[Mishell1383]

From PCS:

"Kevin Jones was interviewed on December 15th and stated that Jones had last seen Nona at her apartment at approximately 00:3 0 on the 15th when he left her apartment and went to Jones’ parent’s home north of Dover to spend the night. He further stated that he called Nona at approximately 01:30 and talked for a few minutes before going to bed. He then stated he had received a text message from Nona at 09:07 on the 15 . He stated that he stayed at his house until 11:45 at which time he left for his parent’s gas station on Hwy 7 South of Dover. He stated he arrived at the station at noon and while there he talked with Blake Walters. Blake Walters was interviewed and stated that he did not see Jones at the Station until 13:00 on the 15th of December."
BUt I'm sure Blake was the one mistaken on the time not Kevin, OF COURSE NOT KEVIN! :tongue: imo

[FDInLaw]

That always kind of made me wonder. My memory is fuzzy on the details, but I thought the reason he went to the gas station was to work. That is why I also thought it was strange when I thought I had seen that he left around 2 p.m. If he wasn't there to work, then why would he be there for an hour? If he was there to work, why such a short time period? The only reason I could think of was that maybe the employee working there was the only person in the store, and K.Jo went in to work while the other guy took a lunch. If he was there just hanging out and talking to people, I would be very interested to hear their testimony about what kind of mood he was in, etc.
Maybe Kevin just dropped by to say "hi" or check in with someone? :shrug:

[optimumprimal78]

BUt I'm sure Blake was the one mistaken on the time not Kevin, OF COURSE NOT KEVIN! :tongue: imo

I went back and looked at this:

http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=10811&Search=kevin%20jones

I always wondered about him running into the room with her in it and putting his hands in the blood to see how fresh it was. When did he gain all of this knowledge about blood? While he was studying/dropping out of school to be an engineer? Did he make any kind of scene? Don't misunderstand, if it were me in that situation I would probably be out of my mind (and probably touching things I shouldn't at first) if I walked into a room like that. But I have always wondered how his initial reaction was when his mom and RW were there.

[hawgustusgloop]

Was it at that point that he changed his story? Kind of like it reminded him?

I guess that would depend on when and if the investigators confronted K.Jo with the other employee's account. K.Jo may not have realized that they had talked to the other employee, and they may have not let him know until after he insisted many times that he got there at noon.

A hypothetical example:

Investigator: So, you say you got there at noon. Are you sure?
K.Jo: Like I told you before, I am certain it was noon.
I: How can you be so sure?
K.Jo: Because I was worried about being late, looked at my
watch when I pulled in, and was relieved it was only 11:58.

There are infinite possibilities here, but you get the idea. I guess if the police confronted K.Jo with the discrepancy, he could have either changed his story, accused the employee of lying or being mistaken, or lawyered up and refused to answer any more questions.

All my speculative opinion only.

[FDInLaw]

I went back and looked at this:

http://couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=10811&Search=kevin%20jones

I always wondered about him running into the room with her in it and putting his hands in the blood to see how fresh it was. When did he gain all of this knowledge about blood? While he was studying/dropping out of school to be an engineer? Did he make any kind of scene? Don't misunderstand, if it were me in that situation I would probably be out of my mind (and probably touching things I shouldn't at first) if I walked into a room like that. But I have always wondered how his initial reaction was when his mom and RW were there.

I've always felt the "rubbed his hands over the blood to see how fresh it was" statement was just too weird. What on earth was he thinking? It's interesting that on discovery of the body he seemed to be in an investigating mind set. Wouldn't total shock be a more normal response? The matter of fact way he talked to the 911 operator is another example of this. I can't put my finger on it, but his behavior has never sat right with me. JMO

[optimumprimal78]

I've always felt the "rubbed his hands over the blood to see how fresh it was" statement was just too weird. What on earth was he thinking? It's interesting that on discovery of the body he seemed to be in an investigating mind set. Wouldn't total shock be a more normal response? The matter of fact way he talked to the 911 operator is another example of this. I can't put my finger on it, but his behavior has never sat right with me. JMO

Didn't his mother make the 911 call? I dont' understand the fact that she made the call but he (and/or RW) could give certain information without any problems. Why didn't one of them just make the call?

[FDInLaw]

Didn't his mother make the 911 call? I dont' understand the fact that she made the call but he (and/or RW) could give certain information without any problems. Why didn't one of them just make the call?
I'll have to read it all again, but I believe Janis made the call but did not know the address so Kevin talked to the operator too.

[FDInLaw]

911 excerpts

The following includes segments of a phone call made to the Pope County 911 Dispatch Center at 6:30 p.m., Dec. 15, from 1006 South Inglewood Apt. 12.
The call was from Janice Jones, mother of Nona Dirksmeyer’s fiancé, Kevin Jones. Kevin Jones and Ryan Whiteside were also present at the time of the call.
Because of the quality of a phone conversation recording and idle conversation, not all of the 10-15 minute call is transcribed below:
Call
Woman: I need the police. (Distressed)
911 operator: I need to know what’s going on, please.
Woman: My son’s girlfriend — I think she’s dead. There’s been a terrible accident. (Sobbing)
911 operator: OK. What kind of accident ma’am?
Woman: I don’t know ma’am. She’s ...
911 operator: OK. What is the address?
Woman: She’s lying on the carpet and there’s blood all over her face. I’m trying to find the address. ... This is the first time I’ve been here. ... We just came to check on her because she didn’t answer the phone. (Sobbing)
I need the address, boys. I need the address! ...
Her name is Nona Dirksmeyer. ...
(Caller switches to a male at the scene)
911 operator: Sir, I know you’re very upset, but I’ve got to find out where the apartment is.
Male: OK. It’s on Inglewood in Russellville ...
911 operator: Is she breathing at all?
Kevin: No, no. She’s cold. She’s not breathing, she doesn’t have a pulse, and I think she’s dead. ...
911 operator: OK. Stay on the line until somebody gets there.
Male: OK. I’ll be here.
(Caller switches back to woman at the scene)
(General conversation while waiting for EMS to arrive)
911 operator: How long has it been since he talked to her?
Woman: She sent him a text message at 9 o’clock this morning. ...
(Ambulance arrives after further conversation. Call ends at about 6:40 p.m.)
BUMP. . . . . . .

[hawgustusgloop]

I've always felt the "rubbed his hands over the blood to see how fresh it was" statement was just too weird. What on earth was he thinking? It's interesting that on discovery of the body he seemed to be in an investigating mind set. Wouldn't total shock be a more normal response? The matter of fact way he talked to the 911 operator is another example of this. I can't put my finger on it, but his behavior has never sat right with me. JMO

No kidding. Who would care at that point how fresh the blood was? From the way I understood it, that was a comment he made at the scene soon after police arrived. I wonder if they have a taped statement of him saying that? Otherwise, I have a feeling the defense is going to argue that K.Jo didn't actually say that. It is way too creepy to explain away logically if he did say it.

I agree with him being in an investigative mind set. I think I made a post along those lines once, but I don't think I stated it as politely as you did.

[FDInLaw]

No kidding. Who would care at that point how fresh the blood was? From the way I understood it, that was a comment he made at the scene soon after police arrived. I wonder if they have a taped statement of him saying that? Otherwise, I have a feeling the defense is going to argue that K.Jo didn't actually say that. It is way too creepy to explain away logically if he did say it.

I agree with him being in an investigative mind set. I think I made a post along those lines once, but I don't think I stated it as politely as you did.

The more I sit here thinking about it the stranger it seems to me. . . it's quite an emotional transition to go from discovering a loved one dead and processing that to trying to solve the crime. For many (if not most) it takes hours, even days to arrive at the same place Kevin seemed to be almost immediately. I'm not a criminal psychologist or anything, just my armchair analysis here.

[optimumprimal78]

911 operator: Sir, I know you’re very upset, but I’ve got to find out where the apartment is.
Male: OK. It’s on Inglewood in Russellville ...
911 operator: Is she breathing at all?
Kevin: No, no. She’s cold. She’s not breathing, she doesn’t have a pulse, and I think she’s dead. ...
911 operator: OK. Stay on the line until somebody gets there.
Male: OK. I’ll be here.
(Caller switches back to woman at the scene)

So the 911 operator tells Kevin to stay on the line, to which he says "Ok. I'll be here.". But he then give the phone back to his mom. He knew more about Nona and knew more information about the surroundings than his mom but he gave the phone to her. Also he checked for a pulse and to see if she was breathing (according to the 911 call) but instead of trying to perform CPR or anything he just thinks she is dead. That's just weird to me.

[FDInLaw]

This is from http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/150430/ and it is the only place, to my knowledge, that resuscitation is mentioned in this case.


"Frost’s affidavit, released by Gibbons, said Jones had told police that when he saw Dirksmeyer through a glass door lying on the living room floor in a pool of blood, he ran inside, lay on top of her and “rubbed his hands over the blood to see how fresh it was.”

As a result, Frost wrote, “Jones’ face, hands, and the front of his clothing became smeared in blood.” The detective accused Jones of “a deliberate attempt to tamper with the crime scene and provide an explanation for any of the victim’s blood, tissue or fibers being on him or any of his tissue being on the victim.”

Frost said the FBI concurred with this conclusion.

Defense attorney Johnson countered: “There was nothing... manufactured about that. It was real. He actually tried to resuscitate her.”

According to the affidavit, Jones told a police officer he watched a lot of the Law & Order programs, which Frost said deal with forensic science and crime-scene analysis. "
Bump. . . . . . (It's seems I never have anything new to say!)

[lorettalockhorn]

If KJ watches even 10% of the L&O that I do (or any other crime based series), he would know that touching anything would be minimally tainting the evidence and maximally considered tampering with the evidence.

I think that his alibi is going to be crucial, but it is possible that it has been completely cleared up and we don't know due to the gag order. Just like we don't know what evidence has been revisited by the state for the same reason.

Agree with Hawg that his work hours that day are curious. I suppose that 12:00-2:00 are peaks hours and it's a two man job? Iif that's the case, Blake would be very certain of of when his helper arrived. And even more so if Kevin was there to relieve him for a lunch break. I would love to see the work schedule, maybe Kevin just dropped in to socialize.

[hawgustusgloop]

I've always felt the "rubbed his hands over the blood to see how fresh it was" statement was just too weird. What on earth was he thinking? It's interesting that on discovery of the body he seemed to be in an investigating mind set. Wouldn't total shock be a more normal response? The matter of fact way he talked to the 911 operator is another example of this. I can't put my finger on it, but his behavior has never sat right with me. JMO

"Seeing how fresh the blood was" is a VERY strange reason to touch Nona and the crime scene when there are other reasons he could have given that are MUCH more reasonable and believable. Why not because he saw her lying there and rushed down to her to try to resuscitate her? Why not because in the shock of seeing her lying there naked in front of them all, he scrambled on top of her to cover her body? Why that reason? Why would the "freshness" of the blood matter at all to him?

[FDInLaw]

So the 911 operator tells Kevin to stay on the line, to which he says "Ok. I'll be here.". But he then give the phone back to his mom. He knew more about Nona and knew more information about the surroundings than his mom but he gave the phone to her. Also he checked for a pulse and to see if she was breathing (according to the 911 call) but instead of trying to perform CPR or anything he just thinks she is dead. That's just weird to me.
The link I just bumped has a statement from Kevin's lawyer addressing this issue, and surprise, surprise Kevin did in fact try to resuscitate her. I find it interesting though that this was the first time and only time (to my knowledge) that this is mentioned.

[lorettalockhorn]

>>"Frost’s affidavit, released by Gibbons, said Jones had told police that when he saw Dirksmeyer through a glass door lying on the living room floor in a pool of blood, he ran inside, lay on top of her and “rubbed his hands over the blood to see how fresh it was.”

As a result, Frost wrote, “Jones’ face, hands, and the front of his clothing became smeared in blood.” The detective accused Jones of “a deliberate attempt to tamper with the crime scene and provide an explanation for any of the victim’s blood, tissue or fibers being on him or any of his tissue being on the victim.”

Frost said the FBI concurred with this conclusion.

Defense attorney Johnson countered: “There was nothing... manufactured about that. It was real. He actually tried to resuscitate her.”

According to the affidavit, Jones told a police officer he watched a lot of the Law & Order programs, which Frost said deal with forensic science and crime-scene analysis. "

Sorry, but to my way of thinking, lying on the body would suppress breathing and circulation. Just lame.

[lorettalockhorn]

"Seeing how fresh the blood was" is a VERY strange reason to touch Nona and the crime scene when there are other reasons he could have given that are MUCH more reasonable and believable. Why not because he saw her lying there and rushed down to her to try to resuscitate her? Why not because in the shock of seeing her lying there naked in front of them all, he scrambled on top of her to cover her body? Why that reason? Why would the "freshness" of the blood matter at all to him?


It has always bothered me that if he was certain that she was dead, that he or someone else didn't cover her. How horrifying.

KJ gave the phone to his mother so that she would be occupied while he did his own "investigating'. IMO

[jonikay]

Well, obviously, kj's lawyers are going to try to explain that he tried to revive her, but I wonder what RW's or Mom's take is on what happened at the "discovery?" (we already know that rw states that the lamp wasn't touched) Also, not to be gross or anything . . . but I am sure that Nona not only was dead (as has been established), but I am sure she looked dead as well. She was reportedly dead around 7 hours and lost pretty much all her blood. When the 3 got there, I am sure they could see she was dead without touching her. KJ was just probably looking for an alibi from 11-2 and possibly thought that if he beat her with the lamp, not knowing for sure that she was actually dead, it would take her a while to die. Possibly he thought the experts would show TOD was later than the attack and his alibis would work out. I just don't know, but I feel like the back-tracking and lying and different accounts of kj, rw, the guy at the station, and the pictures and such, is what may get him in the end, aside from the evidence. If they agree with the statements given 18-19 months ago, then that's incriminating. If they back track what they said 18-19 months ago, that's incriminating. Plus, I don't feel like kj will take the stand, so the jury can only rely on documented accounts of what kj said.

[FDInLaw]

>major snip<

Sorry, but to my way of thinking, lying on the body would suppress breathing and circulation. Just lame.

:lol: Oh, you're killing me. . . *breath FD, breath* . . . that's the funniest thing I've read all day!

Must say, you've got a good point here. Did Ryan and Janis state in their interviews that Kevin tried resuscitation? It's going to be a hard sell it they did not witness him attempting this.
:cool:

[jonikay]

Let's not forget the 911 call, made at the point of discovery. Nothing was mentioned about cpr. There was no evidence during that phone call that anyone thought she could be alive or could be helped in any way at this point, right? IIRC, The transcript mentions nothing about anyone trying to help Nona at this point.

[lorettalockhorn]

:lol: Oh, you're killing me. . . *breath FD, breath* . . . that's the funniest thing I've read all day!

Must say, you've got a good point here. Did Ryan and Janis state in their interviews that Kevin tried resuscitation? It's going to be a hard sell it they did not witness him attempting this.
:cool:

I guess attorneys are like wrestlers, they'll say anything if the price is right; bash the other side in court and then pal around with each other when it's all over. Seriously, I do believe it is within their jurisdiction to spin this however they can. I just don't think that the jury will buy it; wouldn't the normal reaction be to recoil?

[lorettalockhorn]

Good point. Even if he didn't commit the murder, his prints should be on the lamp from past visits as well as many others' prints, especially Nona"s. Only two prints were found on the lamp? I assume the killer wiped the lamp. If Jones was the killer and wiped the lamp, how did he miss a bloody print?

Just wondering if he was enraged enough to kill Nona if maybe he was also unable to function 100%.

[lorettalockhorn]

Let's not forget the 911 call, made at the point of discovery. Nothing was mentioned about cpr. There was no evidence during that phone call that anyone thought she could be alive or could be helped in any way at this point, right? IIRC, The transcript mentions nothing about anyone trying to help Nona at this point.


So the 911 call(s) lasted quite some time; longer than it would take for EMS to arrive. Was the operator getting more info from mom or KJ or distracting them? Doesn't that call sound like it was overly lengthy? Is there a transcript of the entire call anywhere?

[hawgustusgloop]

So the 911 call(s) lasted quite some time; longer than it would take for EMS to arrive. Was the operator getting more info from mom or KJ or distracting them? Doesn't that call sound like it was overly lengthy? Is there a transcript of the entire call anywhere?

It did seem very lengthy. I know they try to keep the caller on the phone until help can arrive, and it wouldn't take very long to say all of the words transcribed in the link. The way it is worded in that link makes it seem like they just made idle chitchat, but surely their conversation was more pertinent to the matter at hand, wouldn't you think? I have never seen a transcript that contains anything beyond what is in the link, to my knowledge.

[lorettalockhorn]

It did seem very lengthy. I know they try to keep the caller on the phone until help can arrive, and it wouldn't take very long to say all of the words transcribed in the link. The way it is worded in that link makes it seem like they just made idle chitchat, but surely their conversation was more pertinent to the matter at hand, wouldn't you think? I have never seen a transcript that contains anything beyond what is in the link, to my knowledge.

Right, according to Lakes' post that FD quoted, the call was ten to fifteen minutes in lengh. For some reason, I was thinking that there were actually two calls made. So mom was on the phone, then Kevin, then he gives the phone back to her. But if there was a second call, I wonder who made it? It shouldn't have taken more than a few minutes for EMS and RPD to arrive, even though it took Frost quite a while.

[Mishell1383]

Does anyone else find it odd that there were not tons of Jones prints on the lamp/murder weapon? There is only one, it is on the bulb, which is not what you pick a lamp up by, and the print was tacky while the rest of the blood on the bulb was dry. If he committed the murder, why are there not more of his prints all over the lamp?
he wiped it down, imo

[jonikay]

According to the transcript, the call was placed at 630 and they hung up at 640. Also, the transcript states idle conversation. My assumption is that Janis called, said what she said, kj said what he said, and Janis took the phone back and simply held the phone until help arrived. She was asked to stay on the line and I believe that is why it lasted so long. I also believe that if kj would have tried cpr, he would've mentioned it and the transcript would have mentioned it. You know (person attempts cpr) . . .

[Mishell1383]

Well, obviously, kj's lawyers are going to try to explain that he tried to revive her, but I wonder what RW's or Mom's take is on what happened at the "discovery?" (we already know that rw states that the lamp wasn't touched) Also, not to be gross or anything . . . but I am sure that Nona not only was dead (as has been established), but I am sure she looked dead as well. She was reportedly dead around 7 hours and lost pretty much all her blood. When the 3 got there, I am sure they could see she was dead without touching her. KJ was just probably looking for an alibi from 11-2 and possibly thought that if he beat her with the lamp, not knowing for sure that she was actually dead, it would take her a while to die. Possibly he thought the experts would show TOD was later than the attack and his alibis would work out. I just don't know, but I feel like the back-tracking and lying and different accounts of kj, rw, the guy at the station, and the pictures and such, is what may get him in the end, aside from the evidence. If they agree with the statements given 18-19 months ago, then that's incriminating. If they back track what they said 18-19 months ago, that's incriminating. Plus, I don't feel like kj will take the stand, so the jury can only rely on documented accounts of what kj said.
well if he went back to the crime scene, it might have been too quick a window for him to have found her dead, from the time the murder happened, so it would seem weird. than she might have been still alive so he wanted to make sure she was nice and cold, and lastly he needed to make sure he got his whoooooooole story straight, imo of course

[Mishell1383]

So the 911 call(s) lasted quite some time; longer than it would take for EMS to arrive. Was the operator getting more info from mom or KJ or distracting them? Doesn't that call sound like it was overly lengthy? Is there a transcript of the entire call anywhere?
my thoughts exactly 10-15 mins???!?! what the!?

[lorettalockhorn]

I'm wondering how much blood Nona lost. The ME concluded that the cause of death was the blow to the head probably from the lamp base. But Nona also appeared to have had her throat cut. What and where is the weapon that was used? Was Nona's throat cut from the front or behind? Was Nona standing and clutching her throat when the murderer hit her with the lamp? Or was she already down? If Nona was exsanguinating from the throat wound, I wonder if the killer used the lamp to speed up the process. That sounds more like a plan than an argument gone south.

[hawgustusgloop]

I'm wondering how much blood Nona lost. The ME concluded that the cause of death was the blow to the head probably from the lamp base. But Nona also appeared to have had her throat cut. What and where is the weapon that was used? Was Nona's throat cut from the front or behind? Was Nona standing and clutching her throat when the murderer hit her with the lamp? Or was she already down? If Nona was exsanguinating from the throat wound, I wonder if the killer used the lamp to speed up the process. That sounds more like a plan than an argument gone south.

Those two wounds have never made sense together to me. I wonder which was administered first? It's hard to imagine K.Jo getting mad, immediately grabbing the lamp (as opposed to just using his fists or something), and hitting a standing Nona in the back of the head with it without her being able to put up a fight or run away. There's just something a little too professional wrestling about that. From what I read, the scene didn't seem to be a mess, as if a big struggle took place.

Your ideas are definitely worth exploring. Consider the following hypothetical scenario: K.Jo is at Nona's. She receives a text message at 11:04 a.m. that he sees and, as a result, flies into extreme rage. He grabs a knife from the house or pulls out a pocketknife (more "natural" IMO than picking up a bulky lamp) and cuts Nona's throat before he even has a chance to think about what he is doing and what the consequences will be. Nona is still alive but on the floor at this point, and K.Jo is freaking out. Is it really an option at this point for him to say, "Oh, God. What have I done? I've gotta get an ambulance here ASAP so Nona doesn't die"? What next? Call for help? Nona would surely be able to identify him as her attacker. Maybe the lamp was used to finish the job?

[jonikay]

I was under the impression, for some reason, that all injuries were made by the floor lamp. I might be wrong. KJ could have killed her with a swift swing (think, like a baseball bat) that was possibly meant for her head, but caught her in the throat. I think that kind of wound could have been caused by the lamp. I figure, and this is only an assumption, that if there was another weapon, we would have known or it would have been mentioned in the PCS, as the lamp was . . .

[lorettalockhorn]

It was Jonikay's earlier post that made me think about all this; and the PCS does state that she had sharp force trauma to the throat. (For some reason, I had assumed that there had been several blows with the lamp and maybe there were, maybe not; the fatal blow may have broken the lamp making it useless as a weapon.) Anyway, if the slash to the throat had hit the carotid artery for example, Nona would have bled out rather quickly while her heart was still beating. The ME stated that the fatal blow rendered death within a few minutes, so the blood from that wound would have been slow, like seepage. (I guess?)

My thought previously was that Kevin had "killed Nona twice", once out of anger and then again in frustration when he realized what he had done. I've always thought that it was possible that he was stalking her; now I wonder (with regard to the sharp force trauma), if he went into her apartment with a knife and a plan.

Anyway, the fatal blow was to the back of the head according to the PCS. I'm assuming that the slash to the throat was frontal, assuming that if it was also posterior, it would be called the neck. I think that the amount of blood that she lost and whichever wound she received first is important.

[JR2007]

I was under the impression, for some reason, that all injuries were made by the floor lamp. I might be wrong. KJ could have killed her with a swift swing (think, like a baseball bat) that was possibly meant for her head, but caught her in the throat. I think that kind of wound could have been caused by the lamp. I figure, and this is only an assumption, that if there was another weapon, we would have known or it would have been mentioned in the PCS, as the lamp was . . .

This was a statment made just after the murder
http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t9528.html
The official cause of death won't be known until Monday, when an autopsy will be performed at the state crime lab in Little Rock. However, Pope County Coroner Leonard Kraut said investigators have narrowed down the possibilities.

"We don't suspect any what you might call a standard weapon -- a gun or a knife -- in this situation,” said Kraut.

[lorettalockhorn]

I was under the impression, for some reason, that all injuries were made by the floor lamp. I might be wrong. KJ could have killed her with a swift swing (think, like a baseball bat) that was possibly meant for her head, but caught her in the throat. I think that kind of wound could have been caused by the lamp. I figure, and this is only an assumption, that if there was another weapon, we would have known or it would have been mentioned in the PCS, as the lamp was . . .

Could very well be; maybe the blow to Nona's head broke the lamp and he took another swing and a broken piece made a slash wound.

[Mishell1383]

It was Jonikay's earlier post that made me think about all this; and the PCS does state that she had sharp force trauma to the throat. (For some reason, I had assumed that there had been several blows with the lamp and maybe there were, maybe not; the fatal blow may have broken the lamp making it useless as a weapon.) Anyway, if the slash to the throat had hit the carotid artery for example, Nona would have bled out rather quickly while her heart was still beating. The ME stated that the fatal blow rendered death within a few minutes, so the blood from that wound would have been slow, like seepage. (I guess?)

My thought previously was that Kevin had "killed Nona twice", once out of anger and then again in frustration when he realized what he had done. I've always thought that it was possible that he was stalking her; now I wonder (with regard to the sharp force trauma), if he went into her apartment with a knife and a plan.

Anyway, the fatal blow was to the back of the head according to the PCS. I'm assuming that the slash to the throat was frontal, assuming that if it was also posterior, it would be called the neck. I think that the amount of blood that she lost and whichever wound she received first is important.
From th e beginning I had always felt that Kevin was losing his grip on NOna and slwoly it was driving him crazy, she grew into a beautiful, talented young woman,, and he was a school drop out. I felt she was out growing him and he knew it. And your post just shows that it was all that much more logical to me that this was the case. He needed total control of her and she was slipping through his grasp. It just makes so much sense, imo.

[lorettalockhorn]

This was a statment made just after the murder
http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t9528.html
The official cause of death won't be known until Monday, when an autopsy will be performed at the state crime lab in Little Rock. However, Pope County Coroner Leonard Kraut said investigators have narrowed down the possibilities.

"We don't suspect any what you might call a standard weapon -- a gun or a knife -- in this situation,” said Kraut.


From the PCS: >>it appeared she had sustained a cut throat and a head injury. >>The ME concluded that Nona’s death was a homicide caused by multiple blunt and sharp force injuries.

These two snippets are from different parts of the PCS but make me wonder if Nona was found face up and which wound was first.

[JR2007]

From the PCS: >>it appeared she had sustained a cut throat and a head injury. >>The ME concluded that Nona’s death was a homicide caused by multiple blunt and sharp force injuries.

These two snippets are from different parts of the PCS but make me wonder if Nona was found face up and which wound was first.

Here is another snip from the PCS.
Nona Dirksmeyer’s body was sent to the medical examiner’s office for autopsy. The autopsy was performed on the 19th of December 2005 and a final report was issued on the 16 day of March, 2006. The ME concluded that Nona’s death was a homicide caused by multiple blunt and sharp force injuries. Among the medical examiner’s findings was a large horizontally oriented laceration centered on the posterior occipital scalp directly in the midline which was four (4) inches below the top of the head and three (3) inches in length. The wound was associated with hemorrhage and contusion of the brain. Affiant was told by the ME that this injury was the lethal event and that it was caused by an object similar to and consistent with the base of the lamp which had Jones’ fingerprint on it.

This makes me think that if see lay on her back then the scene was staged. If some one was struck this hard on the back of the head then they would definitely fall forward. In the description of the lethal blow it sounds as though she had be beaten then as she lay face down or on her knees with her face down she was struck with the lamp base. It states above that the laceration was HORZ. and 4 inch from the top of her head and 3 inches long. The only way this wound could be made is if she lay with her face down when struck or she was standing which would have been a very awkward swing with a pole lamp. So I'm betting on her being on the floor face down. The injury will prove which is true because all these type lamps have a sharp edge on the bottom and a rounded edge on top.
All of them I've seen are screwed together in sections and would take a very hard hit to strip the threads so as to make the lamp come apart.

[JR2007]

Not to be nit picky, but I don't recall ever reading that Kevin worked that day.
Kevin Jones was interviewed on December 15th and stated that Jones had last seen Nona at her apartment at approximately 00:3 0 on the 15th when he left her apartment and went to Jones’ parent’s home north of Dover to spend the night. He further stated that he called Nona at approximately 01:30 and talked for a few minutes before going to bed. He then stated he had received a text message from Nona at 09:07 on the 15 . He stated that he stayed at his house until 11:45 at which time he left for his parent’s gas station on Hwy 7 South of Dover. He stated he arrived at the station at noon and while there he talked with Blake Walters. Blake Walters was interviewed and stated that he did not see Jones at the Station until 13:00 on the 15th of December. Jones stated in his interview that he first tried to call Nona around 11:00 or 12:OO on the 15th and that Nona’s phone rang and went straight
This is what I was referring to, so I guess it doesn't say he went to work, but that he showed up at the station. I just assumed it was to work. My bad :tongue: :tongue:. Although I understand you have a lot of nits to pick up your way.

[hawgustusgloop]

>snippity snip snip snip<
My thought previously was that Kevin had "killed Nona twice", once out of anger and then again in frustration when he realized what he had done.

This thought has occurred to me before, too. If K.Jo did this, I wondered if he violently attacked Nona out of anger, and then got even angrier at her for what she "made him do" and attacked her even more.

[jonikay]

www.katv.com (channel 7 in Arkansas) :
The injuries included stab wounds to the back right side of the neck and superficial cuts on the front and right side of the neck,shoulder and ear.

www.wmctv.com (channel 5 in Arkansas):
An autopsy report said Dirksmeyer died from multiple blunt- and sharp-force injuries. The arrest affidavit said she had a slashed throat and a head injury. The document said the head injury was fatal and it appeared to have been inflicted with a lamp.

www.todaysthv.com (channel 11 in Arkansas):
Pope County Coroner Leonard Kraut says a standard weapon like a gun or knife was apparently not used in the murder.

I remember reading from one of the local news station websites in January of 2006 a very detailed article regarding the autopsy. It even stated how many inches the neck wound was. IIRC, it was an inch and a half, possibly a bit longer. I've looked and looked and even the couriers archives brought up absolutely NOTHING on the day the preliminary results were made public. I wonder if something is up with that. . .

[lorettalockhorn]

www.katv.com (channel 7 in Arkansas) :
The injuries included stab wounds to the back right side of the neck and superficial cuts on the front and right side of the neck,shoulder and ear.

Thanks for the link. I think I had read that before but didn't remember where. The superficial wounds could have been made before or after the blows to the head with the lamp. The pool of blood would have been as a result of the hemorrhage from the lamp wound. Those blows from behind would have knocked Nona face down. I wonder if Nona was found by EMS face down or face up? Kevin would have had to turn her over to resuscitate her. What and where is the weapon that made those stab wounds and cuts?

[jonikay]

You know, I don't think there ever was another weapon. I think that there was a definite struggle. The murderer probably held Nona down, pushed her around, scratched her in the process, and possibly even held her throat (not choked her, but you know the fighting type of thing). By superficial, I would think "doesn't matter to the death" wounds, not substantial AT ALL. Although I am sure the wounds were nasty, but I doubt they were deep or really bad, in comparison anyway. I don't think the superficial wounds were made by a weapon other than someone's hand or possibly the lamp. The prelim autopsy findings would have listed another weapon and the PCS should have, surely . . . AND, from what I know from watching CSI (not law and order), I would say that the blunt force trauma to the head would have been made last, since that is what killed her. If there was a ton of blood, and there had to be enough for kj to think he needed to smear his whole body with it, I would say that the neck wound would have been made before and that may have been where a lot of the blood came from because once a person is dead, they no longer bleed. So, I doubt any of her injuries were made postmortem if there was a lot of blood at the crime scene. A blunt force trauma to the head, I would think, would cause less blood than a neck wound, especially if the death is caused by bleeding in the brain, but I'm no medical examiner or CSI. What do ya'll think.:shrug:

[lorettalockhorn]

You know, I don't think there ever was another weapon. I think that there was a definite struggle. The murderer probably held Nona down, pushed her around, scratched her in the process, and possibly even held her throat (not choked her, but you know the fighting type of thing). By superficial, I would think "doesn't matter to the death" wounds, not substantial AT ALL. Although I am sure the wounds were nasty, but I doubt they were deep or really bad, in comparison anyway. I don't think the superficial wounds were made by a weapon other than someone's hand or possibly the lamp. The prelim autopsy findings would have listed another weapon and the PCS should have, surely . . . AND, from what I know from watching CSI (not law and order), I would say that the blunt force trauma to the head would have been made last, since that is what killed her. If there was a ton of blood, and there had to be enough for kj to think he needed to smear his whole body with it, I would say that the neck wound would have been made before and that may have been where a lot of the blood came from because once a person is dead, they no longer bleed. So, I doubt any of her injuries were made postmortem if there was a lot of blood at the crime scene. A blunt force trauma to the head, I would think, would cause less blood than a neck wound, especially if the death is caused by bleeding in the brain, but I'm no medical examiner or CSI. What do ya'll think.:shrug:

The reason that I thought that there is/was another weapon is because the autopsy states sharp force trauma. What would leave a wound of that type during a physical altercation? And wouldn't fingernails or teeth wounds be specified as scratches or bite marks? I just think that maybe there was another weapon that went the way of the (door)stick. Or it could have been the lamp once it fell apart. Oh well, we all know that the PCS is just an outline.

[jonikay]

You're right, lo. There is probably a handful of relevant evidence sitting in a burn pile somewhere (dover, perhaps . . . that was a joke . . . sort of) with such things as the door stick, the cell battery, the actual condom (although I think the condom as a whole was just planted evidence), and possibly another weapon. Of course, I believe that the lamp base was the primary weapon used in the attack. I also believe that the possible other weapon is unconventional. It was probably something that was already sitting in the apartment, something small that was easy to carry out along with the other stuff. I assume, due to what the coroner stated about the autopsy and what I remember reading, that the cut through her throat was probably not even close to being consistent with a knife, or they never would have said that they didn't think it was a knife. And, for all we know, it may be sharp force trauma with a slash in our minds, but more of a gash to the experts.

[christina]

In rage, or impassioned type killings, isn't it very unusual to use two weapons?

[christina]

Also, there has been mention today of crime scene photos, none have been released I thought. Did I miss it?

[jonikay]

This is pretty much the exact floor lamp I am thinking was used for the murder. Are we all on the same track . . .

http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/ref=br_1_12/602-9130201-7389401?ie=UTF8&frombrowse=1&asin=B0007GBAXI

[jonikay]

Also, there has been mention today of crime scene photos, none have been released I thought. Did I miss it?
I am pretty sure crime scene photos haven't been released. We are just thinking about how things could have happened . . . unless I missed something, too . . .

[christina]

Another thing, what was the motive of the stranger? There was nothing missing and no sexual assault. How did the stranger get in since there was no sign of forced entry? In cases where a stranger commits a crime like this (leaving the body on the scene) there is usually incriminating evidence. There are NO facts, circumstantial or physical, that point to the possibility of a stranger committing this murder. MOO

We do not know for sure about the sexual assault. There was evidence of something since there was an empty condom wrapper present at the scene. And it is a fact that the dna on it is not Jones. And the autopsy simply said there was no sign of sexual assault. If a condom was used, there wouldn't be.

Also, it is too simplistic to me to state that Jones sifted through trash and planted a condom there.
It goes to the poor investigating once again that they never tested the wrapper, it was the defense who extracted the dna.

[christina]

You know, I don't think there ever was another weapon. I think that there was a definite struggle. The murderer probably held Nona down, pushed her around, scratched her in the process, and possibly even held her throat (not choked her, but you know the fighting type of thing). By superficial, I would think "doesn't matter to the death" wounds, not substantial AT ALL. Although I am sure the wounds were nasty, but I doubt they were deep or really bad, in comparison anyway. I don't think the superficial wounds were made by a weapon other than someone's hand or possibly the lamp. The prelim autopsy findings would have listed another weapon and the PCS should have, surely . . . AND, from what I know from watching CSI (not law and order), I would say that the blunt force trauma to the head would have been made last, since that is what killed her. If there was a ton of blood, and there had to be enough for kj to think he needed to smear his whole body with it, I would say that the neck wound would have been made before and that may have been where a lot of the blood came from because once a person is dead, they no longer bleed. So, I doubt any of her injuries were made postmortem if there was a lot of blood at the crime scene. A blunt force trauma to the head, I would think, would cause less blood than a neck wound, especially if the death is caused by bleeding in the brain, but I'm no medical examiner or CSI. What do ya'll think.:shrug:

If all of this happened, and Jones did it, why were there no marks on him, no scratches?

[jonikay]

There was no sign of sexual assault, but could there be even with use of a condom. I would think that bruising, etc. could still be evident even with a condom on. Also, defensive wounds, such as bruises around the wrists from being held down and trying to get out of someone's grasp, etc. would surely be evident in the case that a stranger did come in and kill her. How would they have known to get in the back door if it were locked or the stick was there? There are too many unanswered questions, IMO, that lead me to believe that this was not a stranger killing. I think the defense isn't focusing on that either, are they? With all of their talk about Jeremy Martin. . .

[christina]

"From what I read, the scene didn't seem to be a mess, as if a big struggle took place. "...hawgustusgloop

I miss read this and assumed she was talking about photos- sorry.
Can you post here what specifically you have read about the crime scene? I think I missed those articles.

[jonikay]

If all of this happened, and Jones did it, why were there no marks on him, no scratches?
Well, Kevin and Nona knew each other very well, possibly better than anyone else knew either one of them. She probably didn't sense the real need to fight back, but she possibly thought more along the lines of "try to calm him down, talk him out of it, etc." Do you have a theory as to what happened. What is the guiding factor behind the stranger theory? The "lost, unaccounted for" evidence surely needs to be figured out, but do you think that kj is going to be able to explain why his bloody print was on the lamp. And touching it upon discovery can't be his reason since he and RW claimed that he did not. You're right that there are a ton of unanswered questions and loose ends that need to be tied up before kj can be convicted.

[christina]

There was no sign of sexual assault, but could there be even with use of a condom. I would think that bruising, etc. could still be evident even with a condom on. Also, defensive wounds, such as bruises around the wrists from being held down and trying to get out of someone's grasp, etc. would surely be evident in the case that a stranger did come in and kill her. How would they have known to get in the back door if it were locked or the stick was there? There are too many unanswered questions, IMO, that lead me to believe that this was not a stranger killing. I think the defense isn't focusing on that either, are they? With all of their talk about Jeremy Martin. . .

Why would there have to be bruising if someone forced the victim to have sex?

[lorettalockhorn]

We do not know for sure about the sexual assault. There was evidence of something since there was an empty condom wrapper present at the scene. And it is a fact that the dna on it is not Jones. And the autopsy simply said there was no sign of sexual assault. If a condom was used, there wouldn't be.

Also, it is too simplistic to me to state that Jones sifted through trash and planted a condom there.
It goes to the poor investigating once again that they never tested the wrapper, it was the defense who extracted the dna.

From the PCS: The medical examiner in his report of the 16th of March, 2006, found no evidence of injury of any type to the external genitalia, vaginal introitus, or vaginal canal and stated to affiant that there was no evidence of sexual assault or trauma.


Use of a condom certainly does not rule out or rule in sign of sexual assault. I believe that the ME is referring to injury caused by the force of an assault. There was no evidence of either according to what we have here.

[christina]

Well, Kevin and Nona knew each other very well, possibly better than anyone else knew either one of them. She probably didn't sense the real need to fight back, but she possibly thought more along the lines of "try to calm him down, talk him out of it, etc." Do you have a theory as to what happened. What is the guiding factor behind the stranger theory? The "lost, unaccounted for" evidence surely needs to be figured out, but do you think that kj is going to be able to explain why his bloody print was on the lamp. And touching it upon discovery can't be his reason since he and RW claimed that he did not. You're right that there are a ton of unanswered questions and loose ends that need to be tied up before kj can be convicted.

Remember- my philosophy is innocent until proven guilty- so as I read things here and in the paper and just think about it all, I try to do so with an open mind. And sometimes I do it trying to figure out the other side. The "Jones is guilty side" is obvious since he was charged and it gets much more press, well until this last hearing.
Why do I think some unknown person could have done it? Well, first is that she was a public person, with her competitions and attending college. People saw her and it would not have been hard to figure out where she lived. It would not be the first time I have heard of a beautiful, public woman being stalked and or killed. And she lived alone making her more vulnerable. The apartment complex is not a secure situation, they are all alike so figuring out that there are two entrances is easy. One set backs up to the street so anyone driving by can see the sliding door. The other set(where she lived) back up to a hill so someone trying to enter the sliding door would go unnoticed.

[lorettalockhorn]

Why would there have to be bruising if someone forced the victim to have sex?

Huh? Force would likely cause bruising or some sort of injury.

[christina]

From the PCS: The medical examiner in his report of the 16th of March, 2006, found no evidence of injury of any type to the external genitalia, vaginal introitus, or vaginal canal and stated to affiant that there was no evidence of sexual assault or trauma.


Use of a condom certainly does not rule out or rule in sign of sexual assault. I believe that the ME is referring to injury caused by the force of an assault. There was no evidence of either according to what we have here.

Please believe me when I say I do not want to focus on this! However, if someone is not a virgin what signs are there she has had sex? All I can think of is semen. If someone was forceful with her, this could cause injury. All the above quote says is that there was no injury or trauma.

[christina]

Huh? Force would likely cause bruising or some sort of injury.

Sorry, I did not state what I meant. I think I cleared it up with the other post.

[christina]

From the PCS: The medical examiner in his report of the 16th of March, 2006, found no evidence of injury of any type to the external genitalia, vaginal introitus, or vaginal canal and stated to affiant that there was no evidence of sexual assault or trauma.


Use of a condom certainly does not rule out or rule in sign of sexual assault. I believe that the ME is referring to injury caused by the force of an assault. There was no evidence of either according to what we have here.

I see your point. The only evidence pointing to anything sexual(that we know so far)is a condom wrapper with someone other than Jones dna on it, and the victim was in some state of undress.

[lorettalockhorn]

Sorry, I did not state what I meant. I think I cleared it up with the other post.

KK, gotcha.

Nona wasn't in some state of undress, she was nude except for socks if memory serves. There was some discussion earlier in this thread whether or not people thought that she had undressed herself or not. Not sure that we came to any conclusion. (Go figure.)

[jonikay]

If there sex were consentual, there wouldn't be bruising, unless it was "rough" sex. Nona was reportedly having sex with A LOT of different people.
I understand what you are saying, susieq. I haven't heard that Nona was reportedly having sex with a lot of different people. If so, that gives me another theory, ie kj found out that Nona was having sex with a lot of different people, he got extremely angry, and an altercation ended in murder. My post, however, is in reference to a possible stranger theory as presented by christina. You are right that if Nona had consensual sex with another willing adult other than kj, there would be no reason for any sign of sexual assualt and the condom wrapper could have been left there out of forgetfulness.

[sololobo]

"He stated he arrived at the station at noon and while there he talked with Blake Walters. Blake Walters was interviewed and stated that he did not see Jones at the Station until 13:00 on the 15th of December." PCS statement

Jones said he arrived at noon and while there, which would be between noon and 14:00, he talked to Walters. Walters said he didn't see him until 13:00 which falls in that time period. There are no inconsistencies in these statements. Also, Walters did not say he saw Jones arrive at 13:00, he said he saw him at 13:00 and not before.

[sololobo]

"Affiant believes Jones laying on top of the body and rubbing his hands over the blood was a deliberate attempt to tamper with the crime scene and provide an explanation for any of the victim’s blood, tissue or fibers being on him or any of his tissue being on the victim." PCS statement

The investigators are claiming Jones wore his bloody clothes back to the crime scene that night? (pause while sololobo falls out of chair laughing).

That is not a believable statement. I hope the jury box has chairs with seatbelts or the jury will be on the floor along with sololobo.

[sololobo]

Whiteside did not say Jones did not touch the lamp. He did not see Jones touch the lamp. I doubt Whiteside kept Jones under constant scrutiny while at the scene.

[sololobo]

Photos of Jones at the Arvest bank? There are Arvest photos listed as evidence. I don't know what they depict or when they were taken. We will have to wait for the trial to find out.

[sololobo]

“When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” —Sherlock Holmes

I have eliminated Colonel Mustard with the knife in the library, but that's about it. Jones with the lamp in the living room is not the only possibility.

[sololobo]

Back to the blood smearing scene after Jones discovered the body. The only part of this I could believe would be Jones may have tried to cover up blood under his fingernails. Why the elaborate scene when all he had to do would be bloody his fingers?

[FDInLaw]

We do not know for sure about the sexual assault. There was evidence of something since there was an empty condom wrapper present at the scene. And it is a fact that the dna on it is not Jones. And the autopsy simply said there was no sign of sexual assault. If a condom was used, there wouldn't be.

Also, it is too simplistic to me to state that Jones sifted through trash and planted a condom there.
It goes to the poor investigating once again that they never tested the wrapper, it was the defense who extracted the dna. While following another case that did involve rape, I found out that during normal sexual relations there are physical signs that it occurred (busted blood vessels ~ sorry don't mean to be graphic!), so the use of a condom would not have made a difference. Unless we have been lied to, there was no sexual assault, and from that it's fairly safe to assume that this was not a sexually motivated crime.

[FDInLaw]

If there sex were consentual, there wouldn't be bruising, unless it was "rough" sex. Nona was reportedly having sex with A LOT of different people.
Do you have a link to back up this statement or is this just a rumor?

[FDInLaw]

I understand what you are saying, susieq. I haven't heard that Nona was reportedly having sex with a lot of different people. If so, that gives me another theory, ie kj found out that Nona was having sex with a lot of different people, he got extremely angry, and an altercation ended in murder. My post, however, is in reference to a possible stranger theory as presented by christina. You are right that if Nona had consensual sex with another willing adult other than kj, there would be no reason for any sign of sexual assualt and the condom wrapper could have been left there out of forgetfulness.
I haven't heard that Nona was having sex "with A LOT of different people" either. Like you say though, it does make for a good motive.

[hawgustusgloop]

"From what I read, the scene didn't seem to be a mess, as if a big struggle took place. "...hawgustusgloop

I miss read this and assumed she was talking about photos- sorry.
Can you post here what specifically you have read about the crime scene? I think I missed those articles.

That was mostly a guess, built mainly out of what I HAVEN'T read about the crime scene. From all the articles I've synthesized in my head, I've just read about the large amount of blood underneath where Nona lay, with some blood evidence in different places in the kitchen. I have not, to my knowledge, read anything about blood being all over the walls, furniture, or other places in the apartment. Also, I don't recall reading anything about things (other than the lamp) being broken or any other typical signs of a struggle. There are many things we don't know, though, and I could be wrong, hence my tentative language in the original post.

[hawgustusgloop]

"He stated he arrived at the station at noon and while there he talked with Blake Walters. Blake Walters was interviewed and stated that he did not see Jones at the Station until 13:00 on the 15th of December." PCS statement

Jones said he arrived at noon and while there, which would be between noon and 14:00, he talked to Walters. Walters said he didn't see him until 13:00 which falls in that time period. There are no inconsistencies in these statements. Also, Walters did not say he saw Jones arrive at 13:00, he said he saw him at 13:00 and not before.

How big is this gas station?

[hawgustusgloop]

Back to the blood smearing scene after Jones discovered the body. The only part of this I could believe would be Jones may have tried to cover up blood under his fingernails. Why the elaborate scene when all he had to do would be bloody his fingers?

Because when walking into a murder scene where his deceased girlfriend is lying naked in a pool of blood, running over and dipping only his fingertips in the blood is even stranger?

[FDInLaw]

How big is this gas station? Great question! I've driven by the gas station before and it certainly is not big enough for Kevin to kill a full hour there before Blake would know he was there. Even if Blake did not see Kevin right away, would he not have noticed that Kevin's vehicle was there? MOO

[hawgustusgloop]

"Affiant believes Jones laying on top of the body and rubbing his hands over the blood was a deliberate attempt to tamper with the crime scene and provide an explanation for any of the victim’s blood, tissue or fibers being on him or any of his tissue being on the victim." PCS statement

The investigators are claiming Jones wore his bloody clothes back to the crime scene that night? (pause while sololobo falls out of chair laughing).

That is not a believable statement. I hope the jury box has chairs with seatbelts or the jury will be on the floor along with sololobo.

Where does it say they think he wore his bloody clothes back to the crime scene?

[FDInLaw]

Where does it say they think he wore his bloody clothes back to the crime scene?

:shrug: I'm with you! The main point is that there would be an explanation for Kevin's tissue/dna to be at the scene. At least that's how I see it.

[FDInLaw]

While following another case that did involve rape, I found out that during normal sexual relations there are physical signs that it occurred (busted blood vessels ~ sorry don't mean to be graphic!), so the use of a condom would not have made a difference. Unless we have been lied to, there was no sexual assault, and from that it's fairly safe to assume that this was not a sexually motivated crime.

Did some more research on the topic and found this:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507566_4

[jonikay]

The gas station is small. Also, there is not a back entrance for which a car to drive. IIRC, a car can enter from the front of the store and can also enter from a driveway on the side. If Blake was at the front of the store or outside servicing a customer (remember, the gas station was full service), he would have had to have seen Jones either enter the store or drive up to the store. Every time that I went there, there were always two people, at least (that I could see), in the store. There was a person at the front register and someone that would come and fill the gas. The person filling the gas would sort of come and go while the gas was being filled. I wish I had a picture to send. I should have pasted the link when it was for sale, but I just didn't. When something like this is questioned, it makes it not just about their personal property, but makes the layout of the store very important, thus very important to the case. Also, I would think that Hiram, or someone skilled, was always at the store to change tires, etc. Big trucks used to go in and out of there all the time. One person can't man the front desk, do the other stuff like changing tires, etc. and fill gas tanks.

[christina]

Back to the blood smearing scene after Jones discovered the body. The only part of this I could believe would be Jones may have tried to cover up blood under his fingernails. Why the elaborate scene when all he had to do would be bloody his fingers?

As many here have shared, we will not know all until the trial-and maybe not even then! All we have now about the blood on Jones is one person's description of Jones at the scene-detective Frost. And as I continue to state- this is someone whose judgement has already been shown as flawed.
Has there been anything in writing that tells about Frost's experience with murder scene investigations?

[christina]

Did some more research on the topic and found this:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507566_4

It says you have to be a member to read it! But thanks. I will too to research a bit too.

[christina]

That was mostly a guess, built mainly out of what I HAVEN'T read about the crime scene. From all the articles I've synthesized in my head, I've just read about the large amount of blood underneath where Nona lay, with some blood evidence in different places in the kitchen. I have not, to my knowledge, read anything about blood being all over the walls, furniture, or other places in the apartment. Also, I don't recall reading anything about things (other than the lamp) being broken or any other typical signs of a struggle. There are many things we don't know, though, and I could be wrong, hence my tentative language in the original post.

I think one statement in reference to the blood says it is on a countertop and window blinds.

[christina]

Do you have a link to back up this statement or is this just a rumor?

A lot could be an exaggeration, but there was an open condom wrapper with someone other than her "boyfriends" dna on it.

[hawgustusgloop]

A lot could be an exaggeration, but there was an open condom wrapper with someone other than her "boyfriends" dna on it.

A single open condom wrapper (with no condom found anywhere) which may or may not have been planted by the defendant is hardly factual information in the form of a link to back up the further victimization of Nona by stating she was having sex with a LOT of different people IMO. How sad.

[jonikay]

Everyone was probably in tooo much shock to keep the other undertabs. I would agree.
At the same time, kj said he didn't touch it on several occasions and rw also said that kj didn't touch it. Although a stressful situation, it is very important to not touch any probable evidence. At this point, if both kj and rw go back on their statements and blame it on the stress of the situation (which would be a very, very believable reason for not remembering details), then they have lied about what they said they saw at first and no jury is going to feel comfortable with that. I completely understand that they may not remember what was touched and what wasn't, but they stated that the lamp was not touched. They would have been better off to say, "I can't think right now. I'm too stressed out by this situation. I can't remember if I did or didn't touch anything."

[FDInLaw]

It says you have to be a member to read it! But thanks. I will too to research a bit too.
I'll try to get the page back up and will quote it. . . (it will take me a minute).

Sorry!

[FDInLaw]

I'll try to get the page back up and will quote it. . . (it will take me a minute).

Sorry!

"Others have found higher rates of injury following consensual sexual intercourse. Norvell, Benrubi, and Thompson (1984) found that on colposcopic exam, 61% of women who had consensual sex (N=18) had microtrauma (telangiectasia, broken blood vessels, microabrasions with superficial denuding of the epithelium and increased vascularity)."

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507566_4

[christina]

A single open condom wrapper (with no condom found anywhere) which may or may not have been planted by the defendant is hardly factual information in the form of a link to back up the further victimization of Nona by stating she was having sex with a LOT of different people IMO. How sad.

I was trieing to stay with fact here, not victimizing the victim. Please do not digress here.
You want to continuely stick with the "wrapper was planted by Jones" yet you have no facts to back that up. Actually, it is quite a stretch since it is fact that another person's dna is on it, but you want to say Jones handled it.
As for no condom being found, how about the perpetrator flushed it, or took it with him?

[christina]

"Others have found higher rates of injury following consensual sexual intercourse. Norvell, Benrubi, and Thompson (1984) found that on colposcopic exam, 61% of women who had consensual sex (N=18) had microtrauma (telangiectasia, broken blood vessels, microabrasions with superficial denuding of the epithelium and increased vascularity)."

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507566_4

I've read a few reports from simple google hits. Also read some on the psyche of someone who has a past of being sexually abused. Tough stuff to read, makes you feel sick and sad.
The problem I have is they are describing microscopic stuff. How detailed was the examiner? We already know the crime lab did not use their most sensitive tests on the cell phone.

[christina]

Do some of you never sleep or what? You are on here like 24/7.

I imagine some of us are lucky to have jobs that allow us time to check the blog regularly!

[christina]

At the same time, kj said he didn't touch it on several occasions and rw also said that kj didn't touch it. Although a stressful situation, it is very important to not touch any probable evidence. At this point, if both kj and rw go back on their statements and blame it on the stress of the situation (which would be a very, very believable reason for not remembering details), then they have lied about what they said they saw at first and no jury is going to feel comfortable with that. I completely understand that they may not remember what was touched and what wasn't, but they stated that the lamp was not touched. They would have been better off to say, "I can't think right now. I'm too stressed out by this situation. I can't remember if I did or didn't touch anything."

I see your points. I wonder what it would be like to be interrogated? Would I be trieing so hard to be specific? I don't know, and I hope to never know!!
How factual is what we see on TV?

[FDInLaw]

I was trieing to stay with fact here, not victimizing the victim. Please do not digress here.
You want to continuely stick with the "wrapper was planted by Jones" yet you have no facts to back that up. Actually, it is quite a stretch since it is fact that another person's dna is on it, but you want to say Jones handled it.
As for no condom being found, how about the perpetrator flushed it, or took it with him?

We don't know for an absolute fact that Kevin touched, planted, or even saw the condom wrapper. The fact that it was found on the kitchen counter makes it likely that it was apart of what happened IMO, but just because it is likely doesn't mean it's a fact. Also, we don't know for a fact when it was used or even by whom it was used. A friend of Nona's could have cleaned out their pockets and left it there. We really don't know. What is odd, is that it was found on the counter in plain sight, and within the area that the murder took place. Hotwired posted several days ago that prints are hard to detect on a condom wrapper. . . this was news to me and I really appreciated his input. That in mind, Kevin could have picked up the wrapper without it being detected by the investigators. MOO

[jonikay]

ok, according to the PCS, the toilets were removed during the search for the condom. I take that as meaning, the condom wasn't flushed and that simply a condom wrapper was in there. As far as the condom wrapper being planted, it is believed to be planted, but there will have to be evidence to back that up. Also, if it were planted, I would think that the planter of the condom would not want his/her own dna on the condom in an attempt to pin someone else for the murder. If kj planted it, I would be surprised if it did have his dna/fingerprints on it. Because, I would think that if it did have kj's prints on it, that could possibly, possibly make him more of a suspect than he already was at the beginning. Now, I know that not everyone thinks that kj did it and that is a reasonable assumption. But, either way, he was probably doomed from the beginning. I think that he has lied, accidentally or on purpose, about several things though . . .

[christina]

ok, according to the PCS, the toilets were removed during the search for the condom. I take that as meaning, the condom wasn't flushed and that simply a condom wrapper was in there. As far as the condom wrapper being planted, it is believed to be planted, but there will have to be evidence to back that up. Also, if it were planted, I would think that the planter of the condom would not want his/her own dna on the condom in an attempt to pin someone else for the murder. If kj planted it, I would be surprised if it did have his dna/fingerprints on it. Because, I would think that if it did have kj's prints on it, that could possibly, possibly make him more of a suspect than he already was at the beginning. Now, I know that not everyone thinks that kj did it and that is a reasonable assumption. But, either way, he was probably doomed from the beginning. I think that he has lied, accidentally or on purpose, about several things though . . .

You would be making an assumption here that the condom hung up in the toilet itself. It more likely went all the way down just like everything else that goes into a toilet is designed to.

[hawgustusgloop]

I was trieing to stay with fact here, not victimizing the victim. Please do not digress here.
You want to continuely stick with the "wrapper was planted by Jones" yet you have no facts to back that up. Actually, it is quite a stretch since it is fact that another person's dna is on it, but you want to say Jones handled it.
As for no condom being found, how about the perpetrator flushed it, or took it with him?

If you read my post closely, I said that K.Jo "may or may not" have planted the condom wrapper. Also, your post was in direct response to FDInLaw's request to have a link to back up susieQ's report that Nona was sleeping with a "LOT" of people.

[lorettalockhorn]

If all of this happened, and Jones did it, why were there no marks on him, no scratches?


I suppose that if he bashed Nona from behind (the fatal blow made a posterior wound), that she was taken by surprise and wasn't able to defend herself.

[lorettalockhorn]

"Affiant believes Jones laying on top of the body and rubbing his hands over the blood was a deliberate attempt to tamper with the crime scene and provide an explanation for any of the victim’s blood, tissue or fibers being on him or any of his tissue being on the victim." PCS statement

The investigators are claiming Jones wore his bloody clothes back to the crime scene that night? (pause while sololobo falls out of chair laughing).

That is not a believable statement. I hope the jury box has chairs with seatbelts or the jury will be on the floor along with sololobo.

I don't think that anyone has suggested that he wore his bloody clothes back to the scene; he was on the way to a party with mom and would have been clean and shiny (I guess); what I have supposed is that he wanted to get as much blood on his clean clothes as possible in case his cleanup efforts after the murder left any trace evidence on his body.

[lorettalockhorn]

Do you have a link to back up this statement or is this just a rumor?

I'd like to see a link as well. Especially in light of the fact that SQ has gone on the record as being against some of use posting them, and asking that we have some decency about ourselves when posting them, even though most have been labelled as such.

If Nona had more than one partner, KJ seems to be the one who would be the most enraged by the fact. I certainly don't see that a stranger would know anything about her sex life.

[jonikay]

christina, I understand your statement; however, a condom is not designed to go down a toilet. More often than not, you can flush just about anything down a toilet, but that doesn't mean that the toilet won't get clogged up. I get your point, but you have to know that a condom isn't designed to slide down the pipes. I have to say that anyone skilled in condom use would know that it is not safe to flush a condom. I thought it was customary to throw it in the trash can. I think that whoever used the condom, if in fact a condom was used, took it with him or threw it away elsewhere along with the cell phone battery and the stick to keep the door shut. If the person didn't leave the condom with that important evidence, it was probably disposed of elsewhere. The reason the rpd took apart the toilets and searched the pipes under the toilets is because condoms usually get stuck in the sewer system upon being flushed. It is very common for condoms to be found directly under the toilet and that is where plumbers usually find the blockage. This is just the common place for condoms to be found.

[lorettalockhorn]

"Others have found higher rates of injury following consensual sexual intercourse. Norvell, Benrubi, and Thompson (1984) found that on colposcopic exam, 61% of women who had consensual sex (N=18) had microtrauma (telangiectasia, broken blood vessels, microabrasions with superficial denuding of the epithelium and increased vascularity)."

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507566_4

Thanks for posting. Mabye at trial, the ME can elucidate about whether or not there had been any recent sexual activity.

[lorettalockhorn]

A single open condom wrapper (with no condom found anywhere) which may or may not have been planted by the defendant is hardly factual information in the form of a link to back up the further victimization of Nona by stating she was having sex with a LOT of different people IMO. How sad.

Agree.

The reason that I think that the wrapper was planted is because it was found in the kitchen. Not in the bedroom, or wherever you might expect the sexual activity to have taken place. I also have a hard time imagining that if Nona had a lover on the side, that he wouldn't remember to take the wrapper with him. It was in plain sight, how could he have missed it?

[FDInLaw]

I've read a few reports from simple google hits. Also read some on the psyche of someone who has a past of being sexually abused. Tough stuff to read, makes you feel sick and sad.
The problem I have is they are describing microscopic stuff. How detailed was the examiner? We already know the crime lab did not use their most sensitive tests on the cell phone.
So far Kevin's defense team has not taken issue with the thoroughness of the examiner (well, at least that we know of). We'll have to wait for the trial, but I'm sure the examiner probably did check for signs of consensual sex.

[jonikay]

You know if it was customary for kj to throw every condom used by he and Nona in the toilet would have for sure clogged the toilet. How many plumbers I know unclog toilets that were full of condoms . . .

[christina]

christina, I understand your statement; however, a condom is not designed to go down a toilet. More often than not, you can flush just about anything down a toilet, but that doesn't mean that the toilet won't get clogged up. I get your point, but you have to know that a condom isn't designed to slide down the pipes. I have to say that anyone skilled in condom use would know that it is not safe to flush a condom. I thought it was customary to throw it in the trash can. I think that whoever used the condom, if in fact a condom was used, took it with him or threw it away elsewhere along with the cell phone battery and the stick to keep the door shut. If the person didn't leave the condom with that important evidence, it was probably disposed of elsewhere. The reason the rpd took apart the toilets and searched the pipes under the toilets is because condoms usually get stuck in the sewer system upon being flushed. It is very common for condoms to be found directly under the toilet and that is where plumbers usually find the blockage. This is just the common place for condoms to be found.

Never heard this before. The only experience I have with condoms and sewer systems is a trip to the local sewer plant on a child's field trip where I observed tons of condoms blowing up from the stirring action. And I observed the cleaning out of a septic tank once. Both times I had to ask what those items were. Each time the man present embarrasedly told me they were condoms.
This time I can ensure you it is not a rumor as I, unfortunately, saw these with my own eyes :)

[FDInLaw]

"Don't throw used condoms in the toilet, really. It says it on all the condom boxes and instructions if you take the time to read. Condoms can get snagged on debris in plumbing pipes and actually back up your plumbing. Then the plumbers have to come out and roto-root your pipes with a plumbing snake and it will be pretty embarrassing when they pull out all of your condoms from the last three years!!"

http://www.ripnroll.com/used-condoms.htm

This was just one of many sites that mentioned the same thing. Guess it might be a fact. ;)

[christina]

So far Kevin's defense team has not taken issue with the thoroughness of the examiner (well, at least that we know of). We'll have to wait for the trial, but I'm sure the examiner probably did check for signs of consensual sex.

Maybe we both need to agree that neither of us is sure of anothers actions.

[christina]

"Don't throw used condoms in the toilet, really. It says it on all the condom boxes and instructions if you take the time to read. Condoms can get snagged on debris in plumbing pipes and actually back up your plumbing. Then the plumbers have to come out and roto-root your pipes with a plumbing snake and it will be pretty embarrassing when they pull out all of your condoms from the last three years!!"

http://www.ripnroll.com/used-condoms.htm

This was just one of many sites that mentioned the same thing. Guess it might be a fact. ;)

Can we agree that since there is no evidence of a condom in the toilet, the person who used the condom might have taken it with them, Just as Jones might have planted it?

[FDInLaw]

Never heard this before. The only experience I have with condoms and sewer systems is a trip to the local sewer plant on a child's field trip where I observed tons of condoms blowing up from the stirring action. And I observed the cleaning out of a septic tank once. Both times I had to ask what those items were. Each time the man present embarrasedly told me they were condoms. Here is another statement I found while researching. . .

"Condoms. Not only are condoms a problem for plumbing and water treatment plants, but apparently they sometimes slip through all the filtering systems and end up in the ocean – where they can smother coral and grasses, injure or kill animals that eat them, or just wash up on the beach and gross us out. A beach cleanup group in Florida reported once collecting 900 condoms in 3 hours (I have the reference)."

http://www.frogdesign.com/frogblog/trash-talk-part-deux-days-4-5.html


YUCK!

[JR2007]

You never had sex on the kitchen table or living room floor or anywhere else besides the bedroom? Come on now.

Is this with or without a partner.:biggrin:

[FDInLaw]

Can we agree that since there is no evidence of a condom in the toilet, the person who used the condom might have taken it with them, Just as Jones might have planted it?
The condom might have been used days before and went out with the trash. We don't know for sure. If it the wrapper was planted, it's possible that the actual condom was never even on the premisis. Did you read my post earlier today? I stated that we do not know for an absolute fact that Kevin touched, planted, or even saw the condom? Maybe you meant to direct this statement at someone else?

[FDInLaw]

Is this with or without a partner.:biggrin:

:punch: Bad JR! Bad JR!















:seeya: Did you have your morning nap? :D

[christina]

The condom might have been used days before and went out with the trash. We don't know for sure. If it the wrapper was planted, it's possible that the actual condom was never even on the premisis. Did you read my post earlier today? I stated that we do not know for an absolute fact that Kevin touched, planted, or even saw the condom? Maybe you meant to direct this statement at someone else?

It was my attempt at being "cute/funny/cheeky"- trying to get both of us to agree that neither of us know how the wrapper got there nor where the contents went.
Again- I guess I need to keep my day job!?

[FDInLaw]

It was my attempt at being "cute/funny/cheeky"- trying to get both of us to agree that neither of us know how the wrapper got there nor where the contents went.
Again- I guess I need to keep my day job!?Oh, looks like I better keep my day job too! :seeya:

[christina]

Oh, looks like I better keep my day job too! :seeya:

See Suga- two of us have day jobs!?!?

[christina]

Is this with or without a partner.:biggrin:

Oh my! This made me laugh out loud!

[optimumprimal78]

Suga's too busy trying to come up with interesting comebacks and nothing of importance to the discussion to have a job.

[optimumprimal78]

I only ding you when it is truly deserved...... that better?

If you don't agree with someone, fine, but at least give a reason. Start a conversation. Bring something new to the table.


I am sorry. I really don't remember. Can you send me a personal message and tell me what it was? I am being honest.

Or better yet just post it for everyone to see.

[optimumprimal78]

:eek: Ah, it looks like someone else has been getting dinged! . . . :chicken:

No I think it is stupid for people to come on here and waste time by just "dinging". If you think KJ didn't do it then fine at least give reasons why. Don't just sit behind a computer and say to yourself "I don't agree with them so I will send them some negative feedback". When I sent mine to you (and you are the only person I have sent feedback to BTW) it was to see if you might provide some different view. I still hope you will.

[FDInLaw]

Nice edit job BTW, but I caught it.
Just like I caught you a few weeks back! (He, he, he ) :D

[hawgustusgloop]

But is it really a post when you say nothing at all about the case?

In my opinion, no. It is just distraction. I don't think suga has said anything meaningful about this case. If anyone cares to, I suggest you click on suga's name and "find all posts by suga." Read them all, and see how many have something to do with the details of this case.

[jonikay]

Please don't its long enough.
So anyone talk to a man about the whole condom/toilet/trash/removal thing?
ok, christina, my unc is a plumber. He tells me that the majority of his calls to houses for a clogged toilet result in the digging out of at least two condoms. Oh well, you know, after all this pleasant discussion, who really gives a hoot about a condom? haha . . . sometimes, it's interesting! (when I'm not involved)