Good News!..Debbie Mahaffy is speaking out again! [Archive]

trina1972

02-08-2006, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Hope MT
This is certainly good news!...One of the most outspoken, well educated and well versed victims advocates, Debbie Mahaffy (Leslie's loving Mom) is beginning to speak out again and educate our young people as to the Bernardo/Homolka case.

Go Debbie! :rose:

click here for recent article (http://www.northpeel.com/br/orangeville/news/story/3201619p-3707757c.html)

This is going to sound incredibly rude and callous and anyone who knows me on this board, understands that I'm sympathetic and understanding.

When this incident happened I was very young and I can remember one specific thing that shocked me. That being the fact that Leslie Mahaffy was locked out of her house in the wee hours of the morning and a sick Paul Bernardo was there lurking and waiting. Had she had access to her own home, this would not have happened that night. I certainly hope that Debbie is urging parents to take another form of punishment than locking the doors to your house so your child cannot get in.

I simply cannot forgive her for that, nor can I forget it after all of these years. When I think of punishing my daughter, this horrific indicient ALWAYS comes back to me.

Anthea Delano

02-08-2006, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by trina1972

This is going to sound incredibly rude and callous and anyone who knows me on this board, understands that I'm sympathetic and understanding.

When this incident happened I was very young and I can remember one specific thing that shocked me. That being the fact that Leslie Mahaffy was locked out of her house in the wee hours of the morning and a sick Paul Bernardo was there lurking and waiting. Had she had access to her own home, this would not have happened that night. I certainly hope that Debbie is urging parents to take another form of punishment than locking the doors to your house so your child cannot get in.

I simply cannot forgive her for that, nor can I forget it after all of these years. When I think of punishing my daughter, this horrific indicient ALWAYS comes back to me.

Sadly, I think she will regret locking her daughter out until the day she dies. I completely understand why she did it. It is a difficult position to be in when your young daughter doesn't come home on time and doesn't call.

I've been there, sitting in the dark, waiting for hours many times.

All her daughter had to do was ring the doorbell, but she chose not to, because she didn't want to wake her mother.

I wouldn't advise anyone to lock a child out.

trina1972

02-10-2006, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Anthea Delano

Sadly, I think she will regret locking her daughter out until the day she dies. I completely understand why she did it. It is a difficult position to be in when your young daughter doesn't come home on time and doesn't call.

I've been there, sitting in the dark, waiting for hours many times.

All her daughter had to do was ring the doorbell, but she chose not to, because she didn't want to wake her mother.

I wouldn't advise anyone to lock a child out.

Agreed it is very tough. It's very funny how we remember specifics of our childhood. And whenever people talk about this case, all I can think about is, what if she didn't lock her out.

I can't understand why she did it. Never in my born days have I faced a locked door upon my arrival. And I was not an innocent sweet teenage girl. I was rebelious and down right horrible to my parents. However, in light of the case, I remember saying to my mother "Mom, would you ever lock me out?" and she said "You are a very troubled teenager and I wish I could help you out. But no, I would never lock the door on any of my kids."

I actually applaud you however, for sitting in the dark, waiting for hours. That's what a parent should do and the punishment comes when she walks through that door. Boy, I had my share of punishments.

Like I said, very callous and horrible to say, but I just can't stand people making her out to be a martyr, when she too has made her own mistakes.

goatgirl

03-01-2006, 09:20 PM

:rose: ~~For Debbie Mahaffy~~ :rose:

Acorn

03-28-2006, 08:05 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Debbie assumed Leslie would have her key with her. It was only the next morning, when she looked in Leslies room that she saw Leslies house key laying on her dresser.

trina1972

04-01-2006, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Acorn
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Debbie assumed Leslie would have her key with her. It was only the next morning, when she looked in Leslies room that she saw Leslies house key laying on her dresser.

In all of the readings I have done, I have never seen that documented. However, it could very well be the case, I've just never read it.

I am reading Invisible Darkness by Stephen Williams. I reviewed the timeline the night before her disappearance. A friend of her's wouldn't allow Leslie to sleep there because of previous incidents. Leslie was too scared to knock on the doors or windows. She couldn't believe that she was locked out of the house.

Acorn

04-19-2006, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by trina1972

In all of the readings I have done, I have never seen that documented. Maybe I didn't read it but I know for a fact that Debbie Mahaffy said, on MSNBC Investigates, that the next morning when she looked in Leslies room, she saw her key on the dresser. That episode, To Have and to Kill, just aired again this past Saturday and I watched it for like the 20th time.

Claudia

04-25-2006, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by trina1972

In all of the readings I have done, I have never seen that documented. However, it could very well be the case, I've just never read it.

I am reading Invisible Darkness by Stephen Williams. I reviewed the timeline the night before her disappearance. A friend of her's wouldn't allow Leslie to sleep there because of previous incidents. Leslie was too scared to knock on the doors or windows. She couldn't believe that she was locked out of the house.

if that is the case, then obviously it wasn't common practice to lock the doors while leslie was out, and saying that she didn't realize leslie didn't have her key is an excuse her mother is using to ease some of her guilt she no doubt feels.
you couldn't PAY me to lock my son out of my house. EVER. :no:

trina1972

05-02-2006, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Claudia

if that is the case, then obviously it wasn't common practice to lock the doors while leslie was out, and saying that she didn't realize leslie didn't have her key is an excuse her mother is using to ease some of her guilt she no doubt feels.
you couldn't PAY me to lock my son out of my house. EVER. :no:

Me either.

VictorianLady

05-04-2006, 12:43 PM

We don't know exactly what happened in Leslie's home, we don't live there, we were not there, so leave the stone throwing out when it comes to victims family. Unless of course you have walked in Mrs. Mahaffy's shoes and have yourself lost a child, then for the love of god, please stop this. It's all easy for us to say "I'll never lock my child out" but what if a situation comes up that is beyond your control? are you ready to eat your words? Let us not judge. Let us pray, and let us be informed of a very real evil that may be stalking the young and innocent as we are writing this right now!

Too many times in my own community I see hypocrisy alive and vibrant, I believe it to be a waste of energy when we could be advocating for what is best for ALL OUR childrens safety. Children have a right to grow up, have children, live their lives fully, these girls never had the chance, blaming the mother for something she obviously regrets, and reminding her when we should be supportive is not very christian (I use christian, as christians should love and help one another)

If any, the blame should rest on the perverted demons that snuffed her life out. Mrs. Mahaffy lost a child she carried for nine months, and raised to a young lady, alot of us don't know how this feels, and quite frankly hope we never find out.
Just my opinion.

northernrflxn

05-09-2006, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by VictorianLady
Too many times in my own community I see hypocrisy alive and vibrant

It's alive and vibrant on this board when you rail against casting stones at those in whose shoes we haven't walked, and then turn around and do just that.

mabel

06-05-2006, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

It's alive and vibrant on this board when you rail against casting stones at those in whose shoes we haven't walked, and then turn around and do just that.
Debbie in her wildest dreams could not see the evil that would befall her beautiful daughter. Just think about the sorrow she must experience with her decision to lock Leslie out. Leslie crossed paths with two demons. I never knew that Leslie was locked out until I read it here. Debbie is doing her best by being an activist and alerting other parents and teens. This a link that clarifies the circumstances of Leslie's abduction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Mahaffy

northernrflxn

06-06-2006, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by mabel

Debbie in her wildest dreams could not see the evil that would befall her beautiful daughter. Just think about the sorrow she must experience with her decision to lock Leslie out. Leslie crossed paths with two demons. I never knew that Leslie was locked out until I read it here. Debbie is doing her best by being an activist and alerting other parents and teens. This a link that clarifies the circumstances of Leslie's abduction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Mahaffy

I am intimately aquainted with the circumstances of Leslie's abduction, and don't need any clarification. I have tremendous empathy for Debbie Mahaffey and her unimaginable loss, and I have deep admiration for those times that she has been incredibly brave. I hope very much that she has come to see what the rest of us do: she carries no responsibility whatsoever for what happened to her daughter.

That being said, she is a human being, and in my opinion she has not been perfect in her activism and public response. I take particular exception to her telling a group of highschool students during a formal speaking engagement that Karla Homolka 'is not capable of remorse'. Mrs. Mahaffey cannot be expected to be a fair and accurate judge of that. It oversteps her public role and lends credence to the completely innappropriate actions of the government and media on Homolka's release last July.

While Mrs. Mahaffey harbours understandable rage toward the people responsible for her daughter's death, we in society have an obligation to understand that Leslie did not cross path with two demons. She crossed paths with two human beings, one of whom who was judged less harshly for well documented reasons, and judged to be suitable for reintegration into society.

I can't see how calling Karla Homolka a demon on some message board, probably without about 98% of the available information you'd need to make a reliable assessment of her, furthers any good cause at all.

mabel

06-07-2006, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

I am intimately aquainted with the circumstances of Leslie's abduction, and don't need any clarification. I have tremendous empathy for Debbie Mahaffey and her unimaginable loss, and I have deep admiration for those times that she has been incredibly brave. I hope very much that she has come to see what the rest of us do: she carries no responsibility whatsoever for what happened to her daughter.

That being said, she is a human being, and in my opinion she has not been perfect in her activism and public response. I take particular exception to her telling a group of highschool students during a formal speaking engagement that Karla Homolka 'is not capable of remorse'. Mrs. Mahaffey cannot be expected to be a fair and accurate judge of that. It oversteps her public role and lends credence to the completely innappropriate actions of the government and media on Homolka's release last July.

While Mrs. Mahaffey harbours understandable rage toward the people responsible for her daughter's death, we in society have an obligation to understand that Leslie did not cross path with two demons. She crossed paths with two human beings, one of whom who was judged less harshly for well documented reasons, and judged to be suitable for reintegration into society.

I can't see how calling Karla Homolka a demon on some message board, probably without about 98% of the available information you'd need to make a reliable assessment of her, furthers any good cause at all. Please include me in as asupporter of Debbie Mahaffey.
I have only the greatest empathy for Mrs. Mahaffey and other parents, relatives,and friends of the victims who have suffered tremendously with the knowledge that their children died being tortured and brutalized. Much of it has been captured on videotape. You're right about not calling them demons. They did engage in extremely inhumane and cruel behavior. Please read the book "Karla" which is also well documented on why she was given a more lenient sentence. It's availible as an ebook. Now that Kathy Homolka is out of prison it is unproductive to hound her. As far as your implication that I know only know 2% of the info to make an honest assessment I didn't join this message board to be scolded and dismissed by you. It's a cliche, but debate is what this message board is all about.

northernrflxn

06-07-2006, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by mabel
Now that Kathy Homolka is out of prison it is unproductive to hound her. As far as your implication that I know only know 2% of the info to make an honest assessment I didn't join this message board to be scolded and dismissed by you.

Thats Karla Homolka, not 'Kathy'. Until I have some reason to do otherwise, I think I'll stick with my 2% assessment.

mabel

06-07-2006, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

Thats Karla Homolka, not 'Kathy'. Until I have some reason to do otherwise, I think I'll stick with my 2% assessment.
I wish you well.

2L8 4A D8

06-07-2006, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by mabel

<snipped>

As far as your implication that I know only know 2% of the info to make an honest assessment I didn't join this message board to be scolded and dismissed by you. It's a cliche, but debate is what this message board is all about.

:beer: Good for you Mabel! Save yourself a lot of aggravation. This Poster is notorious for "scolding and dismissing" a Poster when you don't agree with her!

JMO and MOO!!

mabel

06-08-2006, 03:03 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8

:beer: Good for you Mabel! Save yourself a lot of aggravation. This Poster is notorious for "scolding and dismissing" a Poster when you don't agree with her!

JMO and MOO!! [/QUOTE
tnx so much. I will.

2L8 4A D8

06-15-2006, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Elsie
You don't have one shred of empathy for Debbie Mahaffey.

<snipped>

Welcome Elsie! You are correct, she doesn't have one shred of empathy for both Mothers because she honestly believes that Karla was just as much a victim of Paul's as was Leslie and Kristen. She is one piece of work let me tell you!

JMO and MOO!!

northernrflxn

06-15-2006, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Elsie
Karla Homolka isn't capable of remorse. If you watch a child beg for mercy whilst they are being tortured and raped once, it would be disgusting. If you watch a child beg for mercy whilst they are being raped, pissed on teeth knocked out one by one and then you rape them also. Then you watch their life snuffed out.

Then you watch as another child get dragged in and begs for mercy. ( Oh and by the way you rent a movie one night and eat a box of chocolates at the same time as the child is screaming in another part of the house as she is sodomized (again) in a particularly painful and gruesome way.

The notion that the only thing that stands between a human being and horrible acts is a conscience is naive and foolish. Read up on the Milgram experiment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

And a victim being brutalized by having teeth knocked out one by one? Complete fiction. While the girls suffered tremendously, no victim had teeth knocked out. Like the rest of the ranters, you clearly are not familiar with the facts of this case.

Then you spend 12 years in prison and never once no never once express one solitary word of remorse to those mothers, whose lives are over (for the want of a better word).

Visit the following page and view the interview with Dr. Louis Morissette in the video section. You'll hear him refer to the fact that Karla Homolka expressed a wish to write to the families early on to apologize and was turned down by them, as was their right. More pesky facts.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051130/homolka_judge_051130/20051130?hub=CTVNewsAt11

Maybe Leslie Mahaffey has had some counseling on the mind set of psychiopathic, sociopathic personalities. Maybe just a small maybe the woman has been for more help than you and I could ever imagine. Just maybe along the way during these 15 or so agonizing years she has been able to along with the help of many psychiatric professionals draw the extremely accurate conclusion BASED ON MASSIVE EVIDENCE SUBSTANTIATED OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. that Homolka doesn't give a damn about anyone but herself and never will.

The voluminous psychiatric evidence is OVERWHELMINGLY in favour of the fact that Homolka is neither a psychopath nor a present danger to society. Why don't you do some actual research.

Take your righteous indignation and place it where it belongs. I wonder how sorry you would feel about Mahaffey's statement if someone watched whilst your daughter was tortured, raped, pissed on, teeth knocked out, abused and then they watched her begging for mercy on a video for their entertainment.

Take YOUR righteous indignation and place it where it belongs. Right here on the CTV boards! Where nobody has to actually think or do any actual research. They just have to emote and spew salacious pseudofacts.

I cannot imagine being Mrs. Mahaffey, and I feel as much empathy for her as I've ever felt for anyone in my life. I truly don't know how she survived. If I were her, I would likely despise Karla Homolka for the rest of my life. But because I'm not her, I get to understand that you can't make the very personal grief and rage of the mother of a murdered child public policy.

northernrflxn

06-15-2006, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8

Welcome Elsie! You are correct, she doesn't have one shred of empathy for both Mothers because she honestly believes that Karla was just as much a victim of Paul's as was Leslie and Kristen. She is one piece of work let me tell you!

JMO and MOO!!

I have never said anything even remotely like "Karla was just as much a victim of Paul's as was Leslie and Kristen." Ever.

2L8 4A D8

06-16-2006, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

I have never said anything even remotely like "Karla was just as much a victim of Paul's as was Leslie and Kristen." Ever.

Oh excuse me! Now you're just being petty. Let me correct my post: According to Northernrflxn "Karla was also a victim of Paul's!" GMAB!!

JMO and MOO!!

:rolleyes:

2L8 4A D8

06-16-2006, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

<snipped>

Take YOUR righteous indignation and place it where it belongs. Right here on the CTV boards! Where nobody has to actually think or do any actual research. They just have to emote and spew salacious pseudofacts.

<snipped>

Geez! I can't believe that you are still constantly posting to us idiots here on the CTV Boards. I was hoping that you would find better things to do, but I guess NOT!

JMO and MOO!!

:rolleyes:

jenny19socal

06-19-2006, 06:42 PM

Elsie:
So because some Dr. guy says that Karla is not a pyschopath or a danger to society, we should just agree? You suggest that we should stick to the facts. OK, fine. According to what I have read, Karla actively participated in the murder of her sister, and the abduction and torture of Kristen. So I guess she was under the evil spell of Paul, right? And thus had no responsibility, how convenient. According to the Pyscho babble that you apparently believe, you probably think most murderers should go free becuase they probably came from broken homes, were abused, etc. Nobody's ever to blame, and we wonder why our society is in trouble.

2L8 4A D8

06-19-2006, 08:00 PM

<snipped>

Orginally posted by northernrflxn

The notion that the only thing that stands between a human being and horrible acts is a conscience is naive and foolish. Read up on the Milgram experiment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

And a victim being brutalized by having teeth knocked out one by one? Complete fiction. While the girls suffered tremendously, no victim had teeth knocked out. Like the rest of the ranters, you clearly are not familiar with the facts of this case.

Visit the following page and view the interview with Dr. Louis Morissette in the video section. You'll hear him refer to the fact that Karla Homolka expressed a wish to write to the families early on to apologize and was turned down by them, as was their right. More pesky facts.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051130/homolka_judge_051130/20051130?hub=CTVNewsAt11

The voluminous psychiatric evidence is OVERWHELMINGLY in favour of the fact that Homolka is neither a psychopath nor a present danger to society. Why don't you do some actual research.

Take YOUR righteous indignation and place it where it belongs. Right here on the CTV boards! Where nobody has to actually think or do any actual research. They just have to emote and spew salacious pseudofacts.

I cannot imagine being Mrs. Mahaffey, and I feel as much empathy for her as I've ever felt for anyone in my life. I truly don't know how she survived. If I were her, I would likely despise Karla Homolka for the rest of my life. But because I'm not her, I get to understand that you can't make the very personal grief and rage of the mother of a murdered child public policy.

Hi Jenny and Welcome! Your post should have been directed to Northernrflxn. She is the one who posted the above, not Elsie. Just wanted you to know this.

JMO and MOO!!

Lanna89

06-24-2006, 05:56 PM

I'm not an expert on the Homolka/Bernardo murder case.However I am a former victim of DV.My husband attacked me with a wooden baseball bat and almost killed me back in 1993.He got away with it because he would not allow me to call the Police or seek medical attention.I divorced him but was left permanently disabled as a result of the attack.
I do not think that anyone who has not been themself a victim of DV can understand the kind of manipulation and mind control that goes on in those relationships.It is really beyond most people's capacity to understand.And unless you have a sympathetic family or other resources it can be very difficult to get out of.Threats,intimidation,torture and mind control are the hallmarks of these relationships.

I feel that Paul Bernardo was the main perpetrator in the murders of Tammy,Leslie and Kristen.He initiated them and carried them out.There is no disputing the evidence that Karla was severely abused by him for years.Or that he exerted mind control over her.She was not in my opinion capable psychologically of defending either herself or Bernardo's other victims.Not that I absolve her totally of responsibility.I do think at some point she might have intervened.But she was very much a victim of Bernardo's sociopathic sickness and I do have sympathy for her.

This case is yet another horribly sad example of the evil that DV wrecks on our society.Perhaps if someone had intervened earlier in that twisted relationship the innocent lives taken might have been spared.I have the greatest sympathy for the victims and their families.

Lanna

MrToadsWildRide

06-25-2006, 02:04 PM

Karla enjoyed the torture,and murder of those girls just as much as Paul did...maybe even more.Just because she is a female doesn't mean that she is not evil...she enjoyed killing them.No one will ever make me believe otherwise.

I don't want to hear about her being a battered wife.She had options,she was NOT being held captive,and she herself had drugged her friend so that Paul could rape her...for a wedding present.

What about her baby sister? Was she forced to help with that rape? NO!!! She was willing,and able.This isn't about her being battered,and being a victim.She was,and will always be just as guilty as Paul.

Bella

06-25-2006, 03:09 PM

There are no excuses for what Karla participated in. He would have had to kill me, I could never have done what she did. mo

2L8 4A D8

06-25-2006, 05:30 PM

I am so tired of all of the Karla Bleeding Hearts. Victim of DV? GMAB! Karla had to be taken from her home by her parents kicking and screaming to the ER. Even then, she wasn't going to do anything about anything. God only knows how long the madness would have continued had her parents not FINALLY intervened.

JMO and MOO!!

:rolleyes:

Lanna89

06-25-2006, 06:58 PM

You all are of course entitled to your opinions.Just as I am entitled to mine.I try to have respect for others and be tolerant of viewpoints other than my own.Even on subjects I feel strongly about.I will say again.I have the greatest sympathy for the victims of this crime and their families.I also have sympathy for Karla Holmoka,her family and all other victims of domestic violence.Unless you have been in that situation you have no idea what it's like.I assume none of you ever have been?

Lanna

2L8 4A D8

06-25-2006, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by Lanna89
You all are of course entitled to your opinions.Just as I am entitled to mine.I try to have respect for others and be tolerant of viewpoints other than my own.Even on subjects I feel strongly about.I will say again.I have the greatest sympathy for the victims of this crime and their families.I also have sympathy for Karla Holmoka,her family and all other victims of domestic violence.Unless you have been in that situation you have no idea what it's like.I assume none of you ever have been?

Lanna

Yes, I am entitled to my opinion. Thank you. With all due respect to you, no, I have never been in a DV situation. However, IMO it is a poor excuse to look the other way and turn a blind eye to kidnapping, torture and murder and then when the sh*t hits the fan, blame it on DV.

Karla had choices. Paul did not hold a gun to her head and force her to participate. She was a willing participant as the videos showed. Paul also didn't tie her up when he left the house. She could have easily walked into any Police Station and turn him in. Did she do that? No! Why? Because Paul was more important to Karla than Leslie, Kristen and her baby sister Tammy. Karla is one sick individual and I am amazed that she still has the support of her family now that they know what really happened to Tammy that fateful night.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this matter.

JMO and MOO!!

Lanna89

06-25-2006, 09:17 PM

2L84AD8: Thank you for conceding that I have a right to disagree.That is much appreciated. I do feel that Karla had culpability in the crimes that were committed.I don't try to excuse her in any way for that.However she was tried,imprisoned and did her time.She was released.I personally feel she should be given a chance to live a decent responsible life and repay society for what she did.I do feel that Paul Bernardo was the driving force behind those murders.It was his psychopathology that fueled the crimes.Again,I am not absolving Karla of her responsibility for her part in these crimes.I cannot speak for the Homolka family but perhaps there was a dysfunctional family dynamic that led Karla to be vunerable to the attentions of a psychopath like Bernardo.And if your own parents won't love you unconditionally then who will?I commend them for supporting their child even in the face of their grief.

2L8 4A D8

06-25-2006, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Lanna89
2L84AD8: Thank you for conceding that I have a right to disagree.That is much appreciated. I do feel that Karla had culpability in the crimes that were committed.I don't try to excuse her in any way for that.However she was tried,imprisoned and did her time.She was released.I personally feel she should be given a chance to live a decent responsible life and repay society for what she did.I do feel that Paul Bernardo was the driving force behind those murders.It was his psychopathology that fueled the crimes.Again,I am not absolving Karla of her responsibility for her part in these crimes.I cannot speak for the Homolka family but perhaps there was a dysfunctional family dynamic that led Karla to be vunerable to the attentions of a psychopath like Bernardo.And if your own parents won't love you unconditionally then who will?I commend them for supporting their child even in the face of their grief.

I agree. There is something dysfunctional going on in that family and it's been going on for many years. Your parents are your teachers and your children are a mirror of yourself. The Homolka's need to take a hard look into that mirror and ask themselves WTH went wrong.

I am a firm believer in unconditional love, but in all honesty, I couldn't and wouldn't be able to forgive one of my children who participated in the murder of one of their siblings. Sorry, but that's just me.

JMO and MOO!!

Lanna89

06-26-2006, 10:19 AM

I'm not trying to use DV to excuse the crimes that were committed by Bernardo and Homolka.And you are right,there are thousands of DV victims myself included who have never raised a hand to harm another human being much less committed a crime. But I do believe that to discount DV as being a factor in what Homolka did is unfair and irresponsible.Again it was a factor not the whole story.
And I hope a condition of her parole will be that she undergo intensive years of psychotherapy to determine why she is attracted to abusive men.Some women are inexplicably drawn to that type of man over and over.Usually due to horrible self esteem and abuse they suffered as children. Why did the parole board in Canada release her if she broke their rules by corresponsing with a violent inmate?Usually if that is the case they won't release the person.

I DO hold Karla responsible for her behavior.I hope she is recieving therapy to find out why she participated in these horrific crimes.I know from what I have read of this case that her life with Bernardo was an abusive nightmare.She was dehumanized to the point of having her head bashed in with a flashlight and was being treated literally as a slave and animal.That is the status qou for all abusers.They break down your spirit,your heart and finally take away your life itself.For some reason she accepted this behavior.No human being should have to endure what she did or those victims did. I pray she sets a higher standard for her life and tries to make what little restitution to society she can.

Why didn't all the people who knew she was being horrifically abused by Paul Bernardo intervene before things degenerated to the point they did? There were co-workers,friends,family and God know who else who saw the horrible injuries Karla had.They did and said essentially nothing.They could have gone to the Police and made a report.They didn't.DV cases need to be intervened in before someone ends up dead.It is the policy of their being a private matter that gets people killed.

2L8 4A D8

06-26-2006, 11:42 AM

No, a condition of Karla's parole doesn't require her to seek therapy. And she is not seeking any therapy that I know of.

She also doesn't even have to register as a Sex Offender. And since the Canadian Government lifted all of her sanctions, she is free to do anything and go anywhere that she wants. Recently, she applied for a Passport. IIRC, the murderer that she is in love with, his family lives in Paris.

Pretty sweet huh? Karla blatantly lied to LE to get her "Sweetheart Deal" from the Canadian Government. However, nobody in the Canadian Government seems to care about that!

JMO and MOO!!

Lanna89

06-26-2006, 04:02 PM

Elsie & 2L84AD8: If what you say is true then it would certainly appear that Karla Holmoka has learned nothing from her experience with Paul Bernardo and the Canadian government made a grievous error in paroling her.I am not familiar with Canadian law much less their laws as they apply to parolee's.I have read that she earned a Psychology degree while in prison.Why she wouldn't seek out therapy is beyond me.She obviously needs it.I can also see the bind the Canadian government is in as far as discrediting Holmoka's testimony.It might get Bernardo a retrial and that really would be a travesty.

northernrflxn

06-26-2006, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Lanna89
Elsie & 2L84AD8: If what you say is true...

Don't worry. It's not.

2L8 4A D8

06-26-2006, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

Don't worry. It's not.

Only according to you! IMO, you must think that Paul rendered Karla brain dead and brain damaged and thus she is not to be held responsible for what she did because she was one of Paul's victim also.JMO and MOO!!

northernrflxn

06-27-2006, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8

Only according to you!

Nooooo.....according to reality. Outside of the rampant faulty logic in evidence in the last post by both you and Elsie, there are at least three factual errors.

That aside, given that therapy is a private and personal matter, how is it that you imagine that you would be privy to Homolka's arrangements with respect to it?

"And she is not seeking any therapy that I know of." What astounding foolishness.

2L8 4A D8

06-27-2006, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

Nooooo.....according to reality. Outside of the rampant faulty logic in evidence in the last post by both you and Elsie, there are at least three factual errors.

That aside, given that therapy is a private and personal matter, how is it that you imagine that you would be privy to Homolka's arrangements with respect to it?

"And she is not seeking any therapy that I know of." What astounding foolishness.

What part of JMO and MOO don't you understand? They were my opinions, not stated facts. Duh!

You keep saying that you are tired of posting to morons and idiots, but you still keep coming back here to throw around and stuff down our throats your "holier than thou and superior" attitude! Do what you said that you were going to do ~ stop posting to us morons and idiots!

JMO and MOO!!

Pennibelle

06-27-2006, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8
I am so tired of all of the Karla Bleeding Hearts. Victim of DV? GMAB! Karla had to be taken from her home by her parents kicking and screaming to the ER. Even then, she wasn't going to do anything about anything. God only knows how long the madness would have continued had her parents not FINALLY intervened.

JMO and MOO!!

:rolleyes:

2L8 4A D8:

Please remember that there are SO MANY people who suffer from Hybristophilia. Many are 'primary' Sociopaths. Others' are just pathetic 'sexually' deviants who 'get off' on True Sexual Sociopathics.

HYBRISTOPHILIA is a very real diagnosis.

Karla and Paul's bleeding heart fans (and there are MANY of them) are not to be unexpected.

Sickness attracts sickness. Evil attracts evil (even the WANNA BE evils).

No, if ands or buts.

I make NO appologies for my statements. I grew up within a family of 'True' Sociopaths.

I know of which I speak.

None-the-less.........jmo.

:rose:

northernrflxn

06-27-2006, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8

You keep saying that you are tired of posting to morons and idiots...

I'm definitely tired of you attributing things to me that I never said, and then calling it 'splitting hairs'. This would be one of those. Again.

northernrflxn

06-27-2006, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by Elsie
It's astounding foolishness to talk to people in that manner, when a matter is as disturbing as this.

The statements that you post come across like a teacher correcting a math paper, instead of the understanding response of someone who has read the heartfelt expressions of people shaken by something as horrific as the circumstances and people involved in the rape and torture of three murdered children.

Heartfelt sympathy for the victims does not preclude fairness and accuracy. Not in my world. Your cup runneth over with misinformation, and you shouldn't expect a pass because the subject matter is difficult. Karla Homolka no longer has the protection of the prison system, and the gleeful spreading of erroneous facts and half truths over the internet has the potential to be of consequence. IMO, the best of us should have a bit of empathy for that too.

2L8 4A D8

06-28-2006, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

I'm definitely tired of you attributing things to me that I never said, and then calling it 'splitting hairs'. This would be one of those. Again.

Oh yes you have. I would just need to do a "search" but there is no money in it because you would just argue about it anyway. I don't think that I have ever posted to you re: "splitting hairs!" I'm from Missouri, so you would have to "Show Me!"

JMO and MOO!!

sturetroll

06-29-2006, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Bella
There are no excuses for what Karla participated in. He would have had to kill me, I could never have done what she did. mo Karla is obviously a very evil person. Can't belive that she's out. Anybody knows how her relation to her parents is? She killed her sister .. you know..What a terrible person she is...

2L8 4A D8

06-29-2006, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by sturetroll
Karla is obviously a very evil person. Can't belive that she's out. Anybody knows how her relation to her parents is? She killed her sister .. you know..What a terrible person she is...

From what I understand, she has a good relationship with her Mother and Middle Sister Lori, if you can believe that. They both have supported her since Day 1, even when they found out about her role in the death of her baby sister, Tammy. I believe in unconditional love, but draw the line of what Karla did. I would be through with her ~ forever!

Her Dad on the other hand, I am not so sure about. He has stated that there is no way that Karla would come back home and to the neighborhood. To my knowledge, he hasn't stated one way or the other how he feels about what Karla did.

Be prepared to be slashed, bashed and trashed by a certain Poster here because of your anti-Karla opinions. Just giving you a heads-up!

JMO and MOO!!

Canadian

06-29-2006, 03:46 PM

The reason why Karla H received a 'deal' and is now free is due to society's mindset that females are not capable of planning and executing such vile actions. A female only has to whine about being abused by her partner and she is immediately believed.

Regardless of what Karla did or others believe that she did, the proper authorities can only adhere to the details pertaining to her conviction. In other words, what is written in the documents. She was and is only held responsible for the specifics contained in those documents.

Karla may or may not have been a victim of DV. That is irrelevant to the reasoning behind Karla's decision to partake and assist in the said actions. Karla did so due to an emotional attachment to Paul B.

Karla H is psycho. Regardless of any alleged DV, Karla would have involved herself in similar or same level of actions by herself or with others.

Of course the above are my opinions.

2L8 4A D8

06-30-2006, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by Canadian
The reason why Karla H received a 'deal' and is now free is due to society's mindset that females are not capable of planning and executing such vile actions. A female only has to whine about being abused by her partner and she is immediately believed.

<snipped>

Of course the above are my opinions.

IMO, the reason why Karla H received a "deal" is because she blatantly lied to LE about the infamous tapes. She did so because she knew that they would incriminate her "big time!" How the Canadian Government allowed the "deal" to go through anyway, still boggles my mind to this day. Karla is now laughing hysterically and thumbing her nose at all of us!

Yes, she is a psycho ~ always has been and always will be!

JMO and MOO!!

2L8 4A D8

06-30-2006, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by Elsie
It has always been amazing to me that people don't ever address how evil she looks.

You read of her being a beauty of a Barbie Doll.

The coldness is staring out of her. She has the ugliest expression in her eyes that I have ever saw in a woman. Every picture of those eyes and that face is amazingly calculating and chilling.

It's always been puzzling to me that it seems for the most part to go completely unnoticed, when it is so glaringly obvious.

Elsie

I agree with you Elsie. Even when she was 17, she was one ugly witch to me. I think that she knew it too and that is why when Paul gave her the time of day, she just fell all over herself. Not that Paul was any good looking catch either mind you.

Yes, those dead, ugly, evil eyes. Yeah, she's one beauty of a Barbie Doll alright. Anyone who thinks so has absolutely no taste and needs to have their glasses or eyes checked.

JMO and MOO!!

hockeymomof5

06-30-2006, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8
<snipped>
Yes, those dead, ugly, evil eyes. Yeah, she's one beauty of a Barbie Doll alright.

JMO and MOO!!

I think I found a Barbie Doll that may very well have been fashioned after Karla.

Karla Doll (http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Humor/Images/EvilBarbie.jpg)

2L8 4A D8

06-30-2006, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by hockeymomof5

I think I found a Barbie Doll that may very well have been fashioned after Karla.

Karla Doll (http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Humor/Images/EvilBarbie.jpg)

That doll is too good looking to be considered a Karla Barbie Doll to me. It's got to be uglier, much uglier. LOL!

JMO and MOO!!

northernrflxn

06-30-2006, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8

IMO, the reason why Karla H received a "deal" is because she blatantly lied to LE about the infamous tapes. She did so because she knew that they would incriminate her "big time!" How the Canadian Government allowed the "deal" to go through anyway, still boggles my mind to this day. Karla is now laughing hysterically and thumbing her nose at all of us!

Yes, she is a psycho ~ always has been and always will be!

JMO and MOO!!

First of all, it was the Government of Ontario that allowed the deal to go through. And secondly, here's a little item from a Canadian Department of Justice Report on Plea Bargaining that should clear up some of your boggled mind:

Due to a profound and widely felt sense of public outrage at the fact that Homolka was only sentenced to 12 years for her part in the commission of horrific offences, the Attorney General of Ontario established an inquiry[83]. The inquiry examined the propriety of the decisions made by the prosecutors respecting Homolka. The 14 May 1993 resolution agreement and the prosecutor's decision not to charge Homolka with murder after the discovery of the crucial videotapes were reviewed. The result of the inquiry was that the conduct of counsel on both sides was professional and responsible, and that the process surrounding the resolution agreement was unassailable :

It is my firm conclusion that, distasteful as it always is to negotiate with an accomplice, the Crown had no alternative but to do so in this case. The Crown has a positive obligation to prosecute murderers. It is (...) often the "lesser of two evils" to deal with an accomplice rather than to be left in a situation where a violent and dangerous offender cannot be prosecuted.[84]

The inquiry also concluded that the appropriate criminal sanction for Homolka's involvement was in the range of ten to fifteen years imprisonment[85]. Therefore, the sentence of 12 years was held to be adequate.

In respect of the prosecutor's decision not to charge Homolka with murder after the videotapes were discovered, the inquiry held that it was not feasible for the prosecutor to charge Homolka[86]. Such action would have violated the terms of the resolution agreement[87] and is barred by the Criminal Code of Canada[88]. Homolka had not committed a fraud upon the Crown or the Court that sentenced her[89]. From the very beginning, she had advised the authorities that the videotapes existed but that she did not know where Bernardo had hidden them. Homolka made full, complete and truthful disclosure of all of the criminal activity in which she participated or of which she had knowledge[90]. She had lived up to her end of the resolution agreement[91]. Finally, the inquiry found that this was not one of those very rare cases where the prosecutor would be entitled to repudiate the resolution agreement. It stated that to set aside such arrangements so long after the fact was more likely to bring the administration of justice into disrepute than uphold it[92]. This notorious and unusual case illustrates the tremendous obligation on the prosecutor to honour resolution agreements.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/en/ps/inter/plea/toc.html

You really should stop spreading spiteful misinformation around the world wide web, don't you think?

2L8 4A D8

06-30-2006, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

<snipped> because it's too long and I am not going to waste my time reading it anyway!

You really should stop spreading spiteful misinformation around the world wide web, don't you think?

Oh, but it's okay for you to spread your spiteful nonsense about Karla being a victim of Paul's and we are supposed to just sit back and agree with you? My don't you think that you are so special? NOT!

This is not the "world wide web." It's a message board and I have a right to post my opinions all I want. If you don't like my posts, then don't read them! It's that simple.

Again, what part of "IMO, JMO and MOO" don't you understand? They are my opinions, not stated facts. That's why I add IMO, JMO and MOO.

You are outnumbered here and not one of us G's is ever going to agree with you or change our opinion of Karla ~ never! This just really bites you in the *** doesn't it?

Now get off of my back and stay off of it!

JMO and MOO!!

northernrflxn

06-30-2006, 05:12 PM

because it's too long and I am not going to waste my time reading it anyway!

Pathetic. Absolutely, stunningly, mind numbingly pathetic.

2L8 4A D8

06-30-2006, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by northernrflxn B]

Pathetic. Absolutely, stunningly, mind numbingly pathetic. [/B]

How you could possibly expect me to read anything that you post is what is "Pathetic. Absolutely, stunningly, mind numbingly pathetic." Let somebody who is interested and cares in your psycho-babble read it.

JMO and MOO!!

northernrflxn

06-30-2006, 07:11 PM

OMG Elsie, where do I begin?

Justice Patrick Galligan's report titled 'The Report To the Attorney General of Ontario on Certain Matters Relating to Karla Homolka' (aka 'The Galligan Report') was tabled in March of 1996, nearly 3 years after the first deal was negotiated. There had been an election in Ontario the year before that saw the Mike Harris' Conservatives ouster Bob Rae's New Democrats, and as is always the case, the new Premier appointed new staff for the various Ministries. The AG, Assistant AG (Michael Code), and likely all the people involved in the deal in any capacity were long, long gone. Thus, the 'departmental rivalries and wounded egos' you claim are simply a figment.

But here's the really, really important part. The Galligan Report is the inquiry my previous post referenced. The bolded passages and supporting text is either directly taken from the report, or paraphrased by the writers of the Canadian Department of Justice paper. The hand picked Justice Galligan, with all the experience you note, is the person that exonerated the work of Michael Code and others and called the deal appropriate and necessary.

Does none of this give you any pause at all? Make you wonder a little if you have all the facts you need to judge Homolka so harshly? Do you not have any curiosity in the least how what you hopefully see now is a myth took hold in the first place? You don't have to trade any of your outrage or grief for truth and fairness you know. You can, as I do, have both.

northernrflxn

07-01-2006, 10:37 AM

You can post all you like about my comments. I won't be visiting this site again.

I suppose running off is one way to handle being caught making up fairy stories.

I am far from being a University graduate. Every thing I need to contemplate this terrible chapter in Ontario history I've had since I was ten years old: a burning curiousity and need to ask "why?", a willingness to be an independent thinker, and the ability for compassion for others unhindered by popular expectation. Then, as now, what made me angry was the combination of anything and mean. Smart and mean, stupid and mean, ignorant and mean; it didn't matter. Viciously slandering Karla Homolka with a clear measure of small minded joy where a sense of responsibility for ensuring you know what the hell you're talking about *shoud* be is really mean. Generally, people reap what they sow.

I can assure you that if 'Why?' in this case had found a clear headed soulless slag fullfulling her own sick needs on the backs of three stolen lives, I wouldn't have found the passion to argue that she deserved a prison jumpsuit that fit, let alone that she deserved fairness and a degree of compassion. The misinformation and outright lies out there on this case outnumber the accurate information by a factor I couldn't even reliably guess. Ten to one? A hundred to one?

She was not an innocent victim, and her actions and inactions cost three families inestimable pain and changed their lives for the rest of their lives. But the fact remains that she was not the beneficiary of these crimes. She was not the handmaiden of terror and torture that most believe. People despise the fact that she didn't save these girls, and don't even stop to notice that she couldn't even save herself. For those that have a truly open mind and heart, it's a fascinating and complex case more than worthy of contemplation. For that you have to be willing to get past willful ignorance and outrage by-the-numbers. Sadly, most aren't interested.

2L8 4A D8

07-01-2006, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

I suppose running off is one way to handle being caught making up fairy stories.

<snipped>

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Elsie wasn't "making up fairy stories" and you know it. Who caught her? You? As you stated, "Pathetic. Absolutely, stunningly, mind numbingly pathetic" that you would make such a statement. However, it doesn't surprise me in the least considering the source.

Elsie said it best regarding the Posters on this Board: "They have actually demonstrated more common sense and fellow feeling than you ever could. You're a text book influenced person and you don't have the capacity to feel other peoples pain. Except that of a ruthless child rapist. She is the only person that you have had anything kind to say about in the short time that I have visited this website."

Elsie will be sorely missed. She was such a breath of fresh air. Just bites you in the *** doesn't it?

JMO and MOO!!

Hope MT

07-04-2006, 06:21 AM

I haven't visited this site in quite some time but I must say I'm taken aback by the absolute rubbish that the Homolka apologists are attempting to hand us.

It is clear that they are not in the know about this case as, if they were, they would know that Karla exhibited no signs of abuse either physically or emotionally during her time with Paul and in fact led a very active social life including unrestrained access to family, friends and work. She appeared confidant in herself, very outspoken and free to do as she pleased. The only time she complained was when she was actually beaten up and had no problem running straight to the authorities. In fact , although just a theory of mine, it is quite possible that Karla provoked Paul into beating her so she could have photos taken and thus start laying the groundwork for her defense as she may have sensed the police closing in.

The most telling evidence that she was not a victim of abuse came during the video-taped police walkthrough of the home in Port Dalhousie where she dressed in a schoolgirl uniform and basically astounded the police by her take charge manner. She led the whole excercise and seemed to be proudly walking them through as if she was a tour guide. She even made sure she laid claim to some items that were confiscated as evidence as she wanted them back.......ummmm, hardly the actions of an emotionally whipped woman. Even the way she carried herself gave her away.

In a screening of that police video, the court psychiatrist who initially diagnosed her as being an abused woman, totally changed his mind and admitted he had been duped and had he seen this video would not have come to the conclusions he did.......

I've seem emotionally abused women and trust me, they all show the same look on their faces......they are depressed, they look down when under stress and are very compliant to anyone in authority. Their voices lower and they cower when confronted. Their eyes widen as they recount the abuse and their story is usually so complicated, that one event runs into another and another and usually the person can't keep their train of thought going in an orderly fashion because their mind is so confused with many overlapping thoughts and memories..........

We saw none of this in Karla and still don't.

So to those defending her with your contrived psycho-nonsense, best you read up on what a domestic abuse victim really looks and sounds like. To lump her into the community of real abuse victims in an insult to them.
Karls is and always has been a 'take-charge' girl who doesn't do a thing without carefully planning and lucid thought.......another quality that a real abuse victim doesn't have.

thank you.

2L8 4A D8

07-04-2006, 07:20 AM

Good to see you Hope. As usual, your post was excellent. We've lost another excellent Poster, Elsie. The Board has become a ghost town, which is very sad, but I think that you know why.

:seeya:

:patriot:

Hope MT

07-04-2006, 08:44 AM

Thanks!...

Just felt it important to put these Karla Lovers in their place and I hope the people like Elsie come storming right back in here to keep up the good fight.

I suspect Karla herself and her sisters or mother are behind some of this psycho-babble as it is highly probable they are reading this forum......just a suspicion though.

Can you imagine Karla at a keyboard right now?........let me guess what kind of message boards she inhabits......:rolleyes:

scary stuff!

Oh.........Happy "Fourth of July" from Canada :patriot:

2L8 4A D8

07-04-2006, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Hope MT
Thanks!...

Just felt it important to put these Karla Lovers in their place and I hope the people like Elsie come storming right back in here to keep up the good fight.

I suspect Karla herself and her sisters or mother are behind some of this psycho-babble as it is highly probable they are reading this forum......just a suspicion though.

Can you imagine Karla at a keyboard right now?........let me guess what kind of message boards she inhabits......:rolleyes:

scary stuff!

Oh.........Happy "Fourth of July" from Canada :patriot:

Thanks Hope! Again, I hear absolutely nothing about Karla here in the States. If you hear anything, please post it!

:patriot:

northernrflxn

07-04-2006, 05:39 PM

So to those defending her with your contrived psycho-nonsense, best you read up on what a domestic abuse victim really looks and sounds like. To lump her into the community of real abuse victims in an insult to them.

My contrived psycho nonsense is thus:

Just over the course of the police investigation, no fewer than 8 psychiatrists and psychologists diagnosed Karla Homolka as a battered or abused spouse suffering from post traumatic stress disorder (two or three hired by the Bernardo defense disagreed). Drs Arndt, Malcom and Long were hired by Homolka's defense, Dr. Brown was her treating psychiatrist in prison, and the police had her assessed by two psychiatrists and two psychologists of their choice. The two psychiatrists were Dr. Stephen J. Hucker, who is Professor and Chairman of the Division of Forensic and Correctional Psychiatry at Queen's University in Kingston, and Dr. Angus McDonald, who is Assistant Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto. The two psychologists were Dr. Peter G. Jaffe, who is Executive Director of the Family Court Clinic in London, and Dr. Chris Hatcher who was Clinical Professor of Psychology at the University of California at San Francisco. The latter two professionls enjoyed a particular stature in their respective fields; by 1993 Dr. Jaffe already had 20 years experience as a family violence expert and Dr. Hatcher (who has since passed away) was a highly regarded police psychologist and FBI consultant in the United States.

The various diagnonses were arrived at by extraordinarily qualified psychiatrists and psychologists through in person interviews of Homolka over the course of many hours over time, batteries of psychological tests, the review of voluminous material and studied opinions of colleagues, interviews with a substantial number of people who could provide information about Homolka's life including friends and family members, the review of extensive material provided by the police from the investigation, and consultation with leading experts in North America on battered women's syndrome.

Police prepared a 45 page document called "Abuse Timeline" and submitted it to an independent inquiry looking into the propriety of the plea bargain. Justice Galligan who conducted the inquiry said "The timeline is a chronological list of the physical, psychological and sexual abuse of Karla Homolka by Paul Bernardo. It categorizes the abuse as physical abuse, psychological abuse including evidence of domination, and sexual abuse. It describes in detail the particulars of the abuse and gives the reference to this evidence in the Crown material."

There are no shortage of quote worthy passages in the voluminous and unanimous reports of the 8 doctors, but I'll select one from Dr. Brown, a prison psychologist who as her post conviction treating physician is the one doctor virtually immune from any accusation that he has a dog in the fight:

"From my own examination of Ms. Teale, I concurred with the diagnosis of her previous therapists, and continued the treatment programme that they had initiated, including the gradual reduction of the fairly heavy amounts of medication that she had obviously required at the earlier stages of treatment.
The range of traumas to which she had been subjected for a period of five years at the hands of Mr. Bernardo was quite extensive, and her own accounts seemed to be well corroborated by statements from family, friends and examining physicians. These traumas included physical assaults including blows to the head using foreign objects, sexual abuse including many personal indignities, a wide range of psychological abuse including social isolation, the deliberate removal of any feeling of self esteem and self assertiveness and the enforced misuse of alcohol and mind altering drugs. Ms. Teale demonstrated quite clearly all the
symptoms of a severe and chronic Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder..."

So tell me Hope: Was it Dr. Long, Malcom, Arndt, Hucker, Hatcher, MacDonald or Jaffe that threw over his entire diagnoses because he viewed a video of a walk through of 57 Bayview shot 6 months after Homolka's final beating, 3 months after she commenced psychological treatment, and 4 months after her abuser was jailed? Specifically Hope, which one was it?

It is an individual choice whether to find Homolka's abuse relevant to her terrible crimes, but seeking to make a case that she wasn't abused is a fool's errand of the highest magnitude. As far as I can think off the top of my head, nobody outside one rather opportunistic author and a zillion internet gossips have ever seriously suggested it was otherwise.

northernrflxn

07-04-2006, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8
Good to see you Hope. As usual, your post was excellent. We've lost another excellent Poster, Elsie. The Board has become a ghost town, which is very sad, but I think that you know why.

:seeya:

:patriot:

What did you like about it? The incomplete and innacurate information, or the deeply flawed logic?

This board is a ghost town because there is nothing remotely compelling about it's usual state: a bunch of people sitting around nodding at each other.

2L8 4A D8

07-04-2006, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

What did you like about it? The incomplete and innacurate information, or the deeply flawed logic?

This board is a ghost town because there is nothing remotely compelling about it's usual state: a bunch of people sitting around nodding at each other.

You post here don't you? You only come here to slash, bash, trash, brow beat and intimidate any Poster that does not agree with you. Since you don't post on any other Thread that I can see and you obviously don't have anything better to do, you are like a vulture just waiting to pounce on any Post/Poster that comes on this Board.

This place is a Ghost Town because of you and only you! Place the blame where the blame lies!

JMO and MOO!!

Hope MT

07-04-2006, 10:38 PM

Oh puhlease Northern!.......you come across like you know something we don't.....get real!....Courts see accused monsters pull the woll over so-called expert psychiatrist's eyes on a daily basis....

In fact so much so that the Supreme Court of Canada has held in Regina vs. Profit that in cases of child molestation the testimony of "character witnesses" should not be considered as anything of value as the crime itself involves the manipulation of outsiders to conceal the truth and use those very same people as witnesses in the criminal's favour at trial.......

Same thing with Karla!.......she is very manipulative and yes, she duped the entire community of shrinks she was in the presence of. It happens often with serial criminals of her stature as they get real good at concealing their crimes and when caught, they have their justification already worked out well ahead of time....

I suggest to you that most, if not all, of these psychiatrist would admit now they were duped by the best!

Post Traumatic Syndrome??.......hahahaha.......thanks for the laugh!....you're watching Oprah too much!

northernrflxn

07-04-2006, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by Hope MT
Oh puhlease Northern!.......you come across like you know something we don't.....get real!....Courts see accused monsters pull the woll over so-called expert psychiatrist's eyes on a daily basis....

In fact so much so that the Supreme Court of Canada has held in Regina vs. Profit that in cases of child molestation the testimony of "character witnesses" should not be considered as anything of value as the crime itself involves the manipulation of outsiders to conceal the truth and use those very same people as witnesses in the criminal's favour at trial.......

Same thing with Karla!.......she is very manipulative and yes, she duped the entire community of shrinks she was in the presence of. It happens often with serial criminals of her stature as they get real good at concealing their crimes and when caught, they have their justification already worked out well ahead of time....

I suggest to you that most, if not all, of these psychiatrist would admit now they were duped by the best!

Post Traumatic Syndrome??.......hahahaha.......thanks for the laugh!....you're watching Oprah too much!

These were not 'character witnesses', these were trained scientists with decades of combined experience. Certainly professionals can be theoretically duped, but simply saying they were is not an argument. That you seem to think it is is an indication of just how low the bar is set in this case. Review again the methods and sources these men used to arrive at their diagnoses and specifically point out where the lacked the appropriate resources to the point that we are to believe that they were simply 'duped' en masse.

The only thing I ever heard along this line in any way was when one of the early doctors, Dr. Malcom, (a very tough sell in the first place according to Dr. Arndt) was blindsided by a Fifth Estate reporter with a brief excerpt of a letter Homolka wrote to a friend berating her parents for pulling money out of the wedding after Tammy's death. Forced to comment immediately on a couple of damning sentences without benefit of either the entire letter of time to reflect he called it 'callous' and said 'It may have made it a little easier for her to be a perfect follower of this particular sadist, because she’s already along that direction herself.'

Beyond that, how can you responsibly suggest that they all would 'admit' that they were duped? Based on WHAT? What's changed? What new evidence has come to light that is so prejudicial to their original positions that they would reverse their views? Several doctors had access to all the fruits of the police investigation, including the infamous video tapes. Also, the 8 doctors were followed by 5 more over the course of Homolka's incarceration who also saw a woman who would not pose a danger in the future, who was not a psychopath, who did not have a personality disorder, who made a great deal of progress, and who lived with significant guilt and remorse. All, according to you, simply 'duped' by a master criminal who had never committed a transgression against society in her life before she met Paul Bernardo.

Yes, the bar is low indeed.

Anyway, don't like the 13 professionals? How about the concerns of friends and family members stretching back over months and months before the relationship dissolved? How about Bernardo's sickening record of violence and domination with previous girlfriends? How about the independent record of Homolka's terrible loss of self esteem under Bernardo's influence? How about the transformation from outspoken leader to a profoundly submissive woman subjected to public humiliation on a regular basis? How about the bruises? What about that sickening final beating that was the 'worst case of wife assault' a 10 year emergency room veteran had ever seen? Any point in posting the details on that stuff, or should I anticipate that it will be arbitrarily dismissed as well?

It blows my mind that people will do the most bizarre mental gymnastics in order to avoid a stunningly apparent and simple truth that doesn't even have to impact their larger beliefs. It's a level of denial that for whatever reason is pretty patholgical.

Hope MT

07-05-2006, 06:08 AM

Northern;

It is becoming abundantly clear that you are going to extraordinary lengths here to deflect any kind of responsibility that Karla should own for HER crimes. ......I'll repeat that......HER crimes.

The record indicates she is a rapist, child molestor, kidnapper, sexual sadist, pathological liar, sociopath and also a thief and yet you deliberately choose to not use any of these words so as to further your views that a woman can not possibly commit such heinous crimes. Your last post only goes to show the denial you are in when you stated she suffers from guilt and remorse.......what??......where and when?..........oh, maybe she has remorse that she got caught!....but that's it!!

And here's the kicker which trips you up on your flawed theories.

If Karla suffered from post traumatic stress disorder or battered wife syndrome, how could the psychometric testing she no doubt would have taken show no personality disorders??........it doesn't make sense unless the psychiatrists already had a pre-determined diagnosis of "Karla is a victim" when opening up the file.

If anything, it was Karla who manipulated Paul into becoming involved in crimes he hadn't yet aspired to. Karla was well aware of how to manipulate men into doing whatever she needed to fulfill her desires. Her mother taught her that as the Homolka household was full of manipulative women "in training" and as shocking as that sounds, one just has to look at the role the father was reduced to in that home........he became nothing more than a source of money for four competing women (including mom)

Paul entered the scene and Karla, seeing his insatiable desire for sex and rape, saw the perfect opportunity to feed his ego and get him to climb up to the next level............no better than a dealer of cocaine who gets their victim so hooked on the drug that they will do anything to keep it supplied......

Maybe, just maybe, Paul's beating of Karla was one of unbridled rage for letting Karla manipulate him to the point that people died.
By your own admission, that beating was horrific and I agree......but it was the only documented beating she ever received. So what brought it on?........huh?.......well, if a guy like Paul who without a doubt thought he was smarter than anyone else in his own crimes finds out he just got outsmarted by a bigger and better manipulator, that would be about the only thing that would set off an attack such as he launched on Karla.....that was pure anger and rage!....again, what could have possibly set him off to such a degree other than the finding that he was out-manouvered by Karla......it was an attack on his intelligence and it sent him into a rage.

She is a master-manipulator of historic proportions like this country has never seen before and has figured out how to use the weaknesses in our society and it's penchant to make all kinds of excuses for any gruesome crime a woman may commit . Society just doesn't want to believe that a woman can be so evil and therefore we must find a reason to explain it off.

I dare you to call her a rapist, kidnapper, child molestor and sexual sadist outright..........ummmmm, she is ya know, or did you forget that.

By the way, what are your reasons for being so interested in this case to the degree you seem to be........it seems personal to you or am I just reading too much into your responses.

2L8 4A D8

07-05-2006, 06:57 AM

As usual, another great post Hope. As stated, she is a classic "textbook" junkie and seems to do a lot of "cutting, copying and pasting" to get her point across. B*O*R*I*N*G!!!!!!!!!!!

This is JMO and MOO!!

Hope MT

07-05-2006, 07:36 AM

I totally agree with the word "junkie" in this case..........sadly, whenever there is a crime case which becomes high profile, there are always people who crawl out of the woodwork and begin the process of defining themselves as the "expert" on all matters. Unlike the rest of the people posting in this thread, "Northern" is not just posting out of ordinary interest or expressing disgust, empathy for the victims, their families etc..........no, it seems to be an excercise in how smart he/she is as opposed to the rest of us.

We saw that during the trial itself with the author Stephen Williams who made it his mission to have himself declared the only "expert" worth listening to and spread that word around himself to the American media. He even dressed in black all the time so as to create the impression that he was some higher authority in his black robes.......and pontificated accordingly on the court-house steps.
Nick Pron, Wade Hemsworth, Scott Burnside and Al Cairns are all 10 times the journalist he is and don't have to dress up like a clown to attract respect.........they earn it!

By the way, Natalie Marconi, a reporter for CHCH television in Hamilton knocked on the door of the Homolka family in St. Catharines yesterday for comment on the anniversary of Karla's release from prison........Dorothy (Karla's mother) summarily slammed the door in her face and told her to get lost.......but the family is guilt ridden eh?.......what a crock!

MrToadsWildRide

07-05-2006, 08:23 AM

I do not even bother reading nothern's posts anymore.It's half-baked nonsense.

It's disturbing when one defends Karla's actions,and what she did.Women can be just as sadistic,and deadly as any man.Karla was NOT a victim in this.She helped her boyfriend (not married at the time)rape her sister..she even violated her own flesh,and blood herself.Paul was not holding a gun to her head.How can anyone in their right mind think that she was forced into that sinister act?

Paul,and Karla fed off of each other's deviance.Two demented inhumane monsters who just happened to cross paths.

2L8 4A D8

07-05-2006, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Hope MT
I totally agree with the word "junkie" in this case..........sadly, whenever there is a crime case which becomes high profile, there are always people who crawl out of the woodwork and begin the process of defining themselves as the "expert" on all matters. Unlike the rest of the people posting in this thread, "Northern" is not just posting out of ordinary interest or expressing disgust, empathy for the victims, their families etc..........no, it seems to be an excercise in how smart he/she is as opposed to the rest of us.

You have hit the nail on the head! Northern is the only pro-Karla Poster on this Board. If she is so doggone right in her assessments of Karla, why isn't there more Posters on this Board backing her up?

>snipped>

By the way, Natalie Marconi, a reporter for CHCH television in Hamilton knocked on the door of the Homolka family in St. Catharines yesterday for comment on the anniversary of Karla's release from prison........Dorothy (Karla's mother) summarily slammed the door in her face and told her to get lost.......but the family is guilt ridden eh?.......what a crock!

Doesn't surprise me in the least. That family has never been guilt ridden for what Karla did. Not for Tammy, the Mahaffy's nor the French's. They showed their true selves when they threw Karla a BBQ/Pool party before she left for prison. Don't even talk to me about "unconditional love."

However, I've got to admire the Canadian citizens who allow this despicable family (Karla included) to work and walk the streets. It would be all that I could do not to spit in their faces if I saw any of them. I am also amazed that none of their car(s) aren't constantly vandalized. Had they handled themselves differently, I might not have the opinions and feelings that I do. The Homolka Family has no one to blame but themselves for my attitude!

JMO and MOO!!

MrToadsWildRide

07-05-2006, 10:40 AM

I have ridden by the Homolka's house quite a few times (out yard saling) and have never seen a disturbance.

It's just a different mentality here in Canada...or should I say in St.Catharines...no one has forgotten what happened...but people aren't terrorizing the Homolka's.Canadians really are peaceful folk.

I wouldn't know Dorothy or Karel Homolka if I ran into them at the grocery store.But damned if I wouldn't know Karla,and those dead eyes.

Canadian

07-05-2006, 02:59 PM

My thoughts on the professionals who interviewed Karla, and others, that resulted in their professional opinions........

There is a statement that Karla was heavily medicated since the early stages of treatment......how could any professional get a true reading from such a medicated individual?

Family members and friends of Karla's were interviewed and were seen as back-up to Karla's allegations of abuse.....if these family members and friends were truly concerned, why did they not do what was necessary to remove Karla from Paul B? Is there a document that contains a statement from one of these family members or friends that he/she tried to convince or assisted Karla in distancing herself from Paul B?........or did these family members and friends initiate their alleged eye-witness accounts of Karla being abused by Paul B after Karla was arrested?

As for the professionals being hired by Karla's defense team or by the police, it is common knowledge that many authors of reports tends to lean to the side of the person(s) who hired the professional. Are there any documents stating that there were other professional hired by the defense team and by the police, but their final reports were dismissed by the defense team or by the police?......in other words, were the defense team and police selective as to what reports to use?

There are many questions that could be asked pertaining to the professional assessments.

As for northernrflxn, he/she does have the right to express opinions.

For all posters, arguing is childlike. Discussions are where things are learned. One poster stated something like - Canadians are peaceful folk. That is not being demonstrated here.

I do not know who is Canadian and who is American. I did not get involved in earlier postings here because it appeared to be too Americanized. I intend no offense to Americans. However, Canadians tend to want to learn from such a tragedy, and Americans tend to react to a tragedy.

IMO, northernrflxn is familiar with Karla and/or her family or northernrflxn is a victim of severe abuse. If it is the latter, then perhaps as Canadians we can assist northernrflxn by entering into a discussion with her.

northernrflxn

07-05-2006, 03:41 PM

If I had a dollar for every poster here and elsewhere that has ever accused me directly or indirectly of being Karla Homolka, her sister or her mother I'd have enough money to start my own newspaper to disseminate a little bit of desperately needed reality. Anyone with an interest in digging in past the wholly unsatisfying snack food that Homolka is a psychopath, a patholgical liar, 'a master-manipulator of historic proportions like this country has never seen before', a sexual sadist etc. etc. is assumed to have some kind of personal stake. That is a bizarre fantasy that those who revile Homolka have collectively talked themselves into on forum after forum. The biggest challenge that I have is reminding myself that you are probably very good people who simply refuse to process anything other than your understandable outrage at these crimes, even when it seems that some of you are extraordinarily shallow individuals with more than a bit of a cruel streak and some pretty major issues with critical thinking.

I have, it's true, become a bit of a 'junkie' for this case. But it's not Karla Homolka who fixates me, it's you (the public), the media, and the politicians. It's like a near literal car wreck that I can't stop staring at. People behave in groups in ways that they would never (hopefully) behave as individuals. On forums, simple neutral facts presented as relevant information more than worthy of consideration are bulldozed away in emotionally charged explosions of nonsense. Why wasn't Homolka diagnosed with a personality disorder if she had PTSD! Ummmm....PTSD isn't a classified as a personality disorder? People don't even make any frigging sense, and there is simply no will to require it of each other in almost every instance. You isolate and chase away posters with any degree of sympathy for Karla Homolka until only a 'junkie' or two like me are left with any will for anything at all, and then say "Ha! See nobody agrees with Northern!". It's just nuts.

Why so many unnecessarily tie Homolka's culpability to unsupportable nonsense is beyond me. You don't need to cling to delusions that she didn't suffer prolonged abuse at the hands of Paul Bernardo to believe her guilty of murder. You don't need to cling to delusions that she was a pathological liar who deceived authorities to secure and maintain her deal to believe her guilty of rape. You don't need to cling to delusions of psychopathy and cold remorselessness to find her guilty of costing three families the most immense trauma and pain one human can visit upon another. Why you all kick and scream and froth and bite at the truth is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen, and as I said before, I simply can't stop staring.

northernrflxn

07-05-2006, 04:16 PM

Canadian -

Thanks for you very good suggestions for points of discussion.

I would imagine that pyschiatry and psychology are sciences that often involve medicated subjects, and that as a matter of common custom allowances are made, or not made, as required. I would venture that information on Homolka's medication and dosage schedule etc. would have been available to those interviewing and testing her and taken into account before any definitive opinion was offered. I think also if you think about it logically, sedatives and anti depressants and the like are not likely to prevent someone from accurately conveying past events and a personal history etc. that can be later correlated with other sources.

I agree that the circumstances under which a professional offers a given opinion is highly relevant. Certainly we expect the defense to find people that will offer Evidence A and the prosecution to find people that will offer Evidence B. However there is clearly no value in simply allowing the two sides to cancel each other out, and that is not what courts and authorities do. They look at how it fits in with the totality of the evidence, they consider the expertise and experience of the person offering it and the consistency of the opinions offered etc. etc. etc. By these measures I find the evidence I have quoted here more than sound. I am not aware of either side rejecting an unfavourable opinion, though I don't think that is something that we could assume would be public information in any event.

For the record, I am have no personal stake in this case whatsoever, I don't know anyone in the Homolka family or circle of friends, and I have never been abused.

northernrflxn

07-05-2006, 04:30 PM

Forgot to add the the book 'Deadly Innocence' by Scott Burnside and Alan Cairns is an outstanding resource for anyone interested in learning more about the public lives of Homolka and Bernardo through the eyes of their friends who lived it along with them. Be warned though that while it doesn't spare her ample blame, it is likely to leave one with a pretty solid sense that Homolka was physically and psychologically abused for a long time - so if you're one of those people deathly afraid of facts it's best avoided.

Hope MT

07-05-2006, 05:26 PM

Northern;

I appreciate that you are interested in this case......but if you truly want to delve into it, you must look at the other possibility like you are telling us to.........what I mean is, consider for a moment that she is actually duping everyone.......how would you then take all the facts and fit that scenario together?.....

Psychiatrists etc. are notoriously egotistical because of the very nature of their craft..........that being, it's all opinion based and is not an exact science. So their findings can be be painted in any way they wish based on what they think the desired result should be........I submit the photos of Karla with her "raccoon eyes" sent a message (even if subliminally) that the findings should reflect spousal abuse.......when in fact her actual actions before and after suggest otherwise.

As far as what a profile of a classic "battered wife syndrome" victim looks and sounds like, may I suggest you study the case of Jane Stafford from Nova Scotia who blew the head off her abusive husband Billy Stafford.........it is a compelling story of an evil monster who got what was coming to him........both the town and the RCMP quietly cheered her solution.

Karla just doesn't fit the profile......

Myself, I am very close to the case and saw and heard stuff behind the scenes I could never put into words (and wouldn't anyhow out of respect and duty to my friends) but I still try to analyze the bigger picture with a critical eye and have yet to see any indication from Karla that she was controlled by Paul........at best, it was a 50/50 deal with those two in that they each had a hand in feeding off each other....

Canadian

07-05-2006, 05:42 PM

I do not believe that anyone on this forum, including myself, is qualified to give factual commentary on any role that the alleged abuse Karla endured played on her involvement with the actions that resulted in the death of 3 young people. We are all stating opinions.

I stated my opinions in my first post here, and that is all I am saying about those specifics.

Regarding any and all documentation on the case involving Karla, one has to be aware of the difference between an opinion and a fact...and the individual perceptions.

The author of a report who stated that if there was awareness of the content of the tapes there would have been no deal with Karla was an opinion. That author had/has no knowledge of what others would have suggested if the content of the tapes were known prior to any deal.

The professional assessments (Karla's state of mind) are sure to contain a number of opinions and opinion-influenced facts. This does not suggest that the assessments contain no facts.

As for the family members and friends who allegedly witnessed Karla being abused by Paul B, one has to be cautious when accepting reality and an idividual's perception of reality.

northernrflxn, it is not clear to me if you are attempting to connect Karla's alleged abuse and her actions that resulted in the deaths of 3 or are you simply stating your belief that Karla was abused by Paul B? Once this is clear, then a proper discussion could commence.

I believe that the cause of the problems here is that you are focused on the abuse, and the other posters are focused on what Karla did (not on what was done to Karla). The postings are approaching from different angles. If a common angle could be secured, then there is room for a productive discussion.

Every person who posts on any forum does so with a purpose (or agenda if you will). My purpose is to attempt to have others place the focus on the victims and stop assisting the evil-doers with their ultimate goal - infamy. Every time a person speaks of Karla that person assists Karla with reaching that ultimate goal.

2L8 4A D8

07-05-2006, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by MrToadsWildRide
I have ridden by the Homolka's house quite a few times (out yard saling) and have never seen a disturbance.

It's just a different mentality here in Canada...or should I say in St.Catharines...no one has forgotten what happened...but people aren't terrorizing the Homolka's.Canadians really are peaceful folk.

I wouldn't know Dorothy or Karel Homolka if I ran into them at the grocery store.But damned if I wouldn't know Karla,and those dead eyes.

I am glad that the "Canadians really are peaceful folk" and I admire all of you for that. However, IMO, only "peaceful folk" could have possibly allowed Karla to get that travesty of justice called the "sweetheart deal."

JMO and MOO!!

2L8 4A D8

07-05-2006, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Canadian

<snipped>

As for northernrflxn, he/she does have the right to express opinions.

Yes, she does and so do the rest of us. However, she only knows how to slash, bash, trash, brow beat, belittle and intimidate anyone that doesn't agree with her "opinions."

For all posters, arguing is childlike. Discussions are where things are learned. One poster stated something like - Canadians are peaceful folk. That is not being demonstrated here.

Gee, I wonder why?

I do not know who is Canadian and who is American. I did not get involved in earlier postings here because it appeared to be too Americanized. I intend no offense to Americans. However, Canadians tend to want to learn from such a tragedy, and Americans tend to react to a tragedy.

Is the above paragraph just your opinion or does every Canadian feel the same way? "Americanized?" GMAB! I didn't realize that this Board was supposed to be just for "Canadians." Silly me!

JMO and MOO!!

MrToadsWildRide

07-05-2006, 07:10 PM

I am an American but reside in Canada.

Karla HELPED MURDER her sister,Kristen,and Leslie.Not sure what more needs to be known.Doesn't matter if Tammy died accidentally...she got the damned drugs from her workplace to aid in this rape.

I am sorry but I seriously think some people must have ridden the short bus if they think that Karla was a victim in all of this.

I have read ALL of the books quite a few times,and always come to the same conclusion.She was just as GUILTY as Paul.This battered wife excuse is just pure crap.I am not buying it,and never will.The smart Canadians know this too.

Hope MT

07-05-2006, 07:17 PM

The author of a report who stated that if there was awareness of the content of the tapes there would have been no deal with Karla was an opinion. That author had/has no knowledge of what others would have suggested if the content of the tapes were known prior to any deal.

Actually, I can confirm that there would have been no deal with Karla had the tapes been discovered earlier.......I was called to the home of one of the victim's family by a grief counsellor who was working with the family.......she had no clue how to handle this news (the discovery of the tapes) and leaned on close friends to help out that afternoon.......Inspector Vince Bevan and representatives of the Attorney General's Office were also there at the home when I arrived.......so yeah, I know first hand that the "sweetheart deal" would not have happened....never in a million years.

I suggested (to my friend who was in deep shock that day) the families now need a lawyer to protect those tapes and the girl's dignity. Originally, I conferred by phone with a lawyer friend of mine from Grimsby, Ontario but eventually the decision by both the families was to hire Tim Danson of Toronto.....an excellent choice.

Boy, the details that the media just aren't aware of !...It boggles my mind!

2L8 4A D8

07-05-2006, 07:24 PM

Does anyone know if any of Paul's family come to visit him?

There is always two sides to every story and I've only heard Karla's side. I would really like to hear Paul's side of the story. Not that it will change my mind of course. Just curious that's all.

2L8 4A D8

07-05-2006, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Hope MT
The author of a report who stated that if there was awareness of the content of the tapes there would have been no deal with Karla was an opinion. That author had/has no knowledge of what others would have suggested if the content of the tapes were known prior to any deal.

Actually, I can confirm that there would have been no deal with Karla had the tapes been discovered earlier.......I was called to the home of one of the victim's family by a grief counsellor who was working with the family.......she had no clue how to handle this news (the discovery of the tapes) and leaned on close friends to help out that afternoon.......Inspector Vince Bevan and representatives of the Attorney General's Office were also there at the home when I arrived.......so yeah, I know first hand that the "sweetheart deal" would not have happened....never in a million years.

I suggested (to my friend who was in deep shock that day) the families now need a lawyer to protect those tapes and the girl's dignity. Originally, I conferred by phone with a lawyer friend of mine from Grimsby, Ontario but eventually the decision by both the families was to hire Tim Danson of Toronto.....an excellent choice.

Boy, the details that the media just aren't aware of !...It boggles my mind!

I know that the tapes were destroyed Hope and I guess that I can't blame the families for doing so. However, I wish that they wouldn't have been destroyed. If I had been Kristen's or Leslie's Mother or even a sibling, I would have demanded that the tapes be given to me to be put in a Safety Deposit Box as a reminder of the travesty of justice that allowed Karla to receive her "sweetheart deal" from the Canadian Government.

All proof of Karla's involvement in the crimes is now gone. Those tapes were a goldmine of Karla's guilt as a willing participant. As soon as those tapes were destroyed, it gave Karla her power back in being able to deny that she was ever involved. I have no doubt that Karla is laughing herself to sleep every night knowing that the infamous tapes were destroyed. Sad, very sad.

JMO and MOO!!

Canadian

07-05-2006, 10:10 PM

One of the reasons why I do not post often in forums is due to the fact that I have to check here often to keep up with the postings. Regardless, if I decide to post I must be prepared to continue with it.

Hope MT, you stated that you can confirm that no deal would have been made if the content of the tapes was known. First, what I said was that the author of the report that someone quoted from gave his opinion. I did not say anything about the people that you mentioned. Also, it is reasonable to believe that the representatives that were at one of the victim's family's home would say whatever they believed would be comforting to the family. Do you believe that they would say something like - yeah, we now know the level of Karla's involvement but we wanted Paul B, and we also live in a society that hide the facts pertaining to females because we want to portray the females in our society as innocent, vulnerable, caring, etc., etc.

The fact is that the Government involved itself in a wrong and it will do whatever it has to cover it up.

What would happen to a society if it is revealed that the female gender is as evil as the male gender? Who then would protect and nurture the children? Yes, we all know that males are capable and willing to protect and nurture, but society would rather see them as the evil-doers. The facts pertaining to the female gender would cause an imbalance in society.

There is much more involved then what the naked eye or ear can see or hear.

2L8 4A D8 said:
"Is the above paragraph just your opinion or does every Canadian feel the same way? "Americanized?" GMAB! I didn't realize that this Board was supposed to be just for "Canadians." Silly me!"

Re-read the paragraph. I said it appeared Americanized due to all of the reacting. It is a FACT that Canadians take a tragedy and use it as a learning experience. Where possible, they will implement preventative measures to decrease the probability of re-occurring. The Americans react to a tragedy by wanting more harsh penalties. They wait for a tragedy to occur then want to kill the offender or imprison the offender for a long time or for life.

2L8 4A D8, if you want to turn this into a Canadian vs American topic, I will oblige. However, I hope that we can get back to the topic at hand and put aside the childlike remarks.

Mr. Toad, I am not sure if any of the posters here have said that Karla is a victim in all of this. Clarity is needed from Northern before any such conclusion can or should be made. Northern may be saying that Karla is a victim of abuse, but not a victim to the tragic events that resulted in the loss of 3 lives. I can not speak for northern. she will have to clarify.

2L8 4A D8

07-05-2006, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Canadian

One of the reasons why I do not post often in forums is due to the fact that I have to check here often to keep up with the postings. Regardless, if I decide to post I must be prepared to continue with it.

I find it quite odd that after I posted (in so many words) why is no one backing up Northern, all of a sudden here you come. Out of the blue and out of nowhere.

<snipped>

The fact is that the Government involved itself in a wrong and it will do whatever it has to cover it up.

This doesn't bother you and the other "peaceful" Canadians? Don't bother responding. I know what your response will be.

<snipped>

Re-read the paragraph. I said it appeared Americanized due to all of the reacting. It is a FACT that Canadians take a tragedy and use it as a learning experience. Where possible, they will implement preventative measures to decrease the probability of re-occurring. The Americans react to a tragedy by wanting more harsh penalties. They wait for a tragedy to occur then want to kill the offender or imprison the offender for a long time or for life.

I will assume that this is your opinion and that you are speaking for all of the "peaceful" Canadians. Good to know. Thank you!

2L8 4A D8, if you want to turn this into a Canadian vs American topic, I will oblige. However, I hope that we can get back to the topic at hand and put aside the childlike remarks.

You are the one that wants to turn it into a Canadian vs. American topic. You're not my Mother so don't start with the "childlike remarks." You are condescending and rude just like Northern.

JMO and MOO!!

<snipped>

Canadian

07-05-2006, 11:45 PM

2L8 4A D8, for the sake of clarity, I simply decided to check out the forum on Karla. Yes, I checked it out in the past, and you now know my thoughts.

What I noticed was a few posters attacking another poster for stating her opinions. I will assume Northern is a her. I do not agree with Northern, but she has as much right/privilege to post her opinions as any other poster.

It appears to be a control issue on both sides of the argument. Both sides could continue to argue and get nowhere. A constructive discussion would be productive. Otherwise, it is only a struggle to control.

Does it bother me that the Canadian Government is/may be involved in a cover up pertaining to the case involving Karla... No, because there is a level of cover-ups within any and all Governments of any and all nations. On the positive side, the Canadian Government got the people's message and will be cautious of ever allowing it to happen again.

2L8 4A D8 said:
"I will assume that this is your opinion and that you are speaking for all of the "peaceful" Canadians. Good to know. Thank you!"

If it is my opinion, then I can not be speaking for anyone but myself. If you care to check into it you will find that it is common knowledge among many in-the-know Canadians and Americans including Government officials. Others may not word it the same as I did.

I fail to see where I was rude in any of my comments. I thought that I was being quite diplomatic in explaining why the arguments are occurring. I thought that perhaps I could direct the discussion in a constructive manner, one that I would be interested in engaging.

2L8 4A D8

07-06-2006, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Canadian
2L8 4A D8, for the sake of clarity, I simply decided to check out the forum on Karla. Yes, I checked it out in the past, and you now know my thoughts.

Uh huh. Yeah, right! Okie Dokie!

What I noticed was a few posters attacking another poster for stating her opinions. I will assume Northern is a her. I do not agree with Northern, but she has as much right/privilege to post her opinions as any other poster.

Again............Yes, she does and so do the rest of us. However, she only knows how to slash, bash, trash, brow beat, belittle and intimidate anyone that doesn't agree with her "opinions."

<snipped>

Does it bother me that the Canadian Government is/may be involved in a cover up pertaining to the case involving Karla... No, because there is a level of cover-ups within any and all Governments of any and all nations. On the positive side, the Canadian Government got the people's message and will be cautious of ever allowing it to happen again.

Oh, isn't that sweet? A little too late IMO. They knew what they were doing was wrong, but allowed it to continue. I am tired of hearing, "Well, we're sorry, but it was etched in concrete and our hands were tied." GMAB!

<snipped>

I fail to see where I was rude in any of my comments. I thought that I was being quite diplomatic in explaining why the arguments are occurring. I thought that perhaps I could direct the discussion in a constructive manner, one that I would be interested in engaging.

IMO, condescending and rude go hand-in-hand. You want constructive discussion that you "would be interested in engaging?" Then I suggest that YOU start a new Thread on the Karla Board where you and Northern can have at it!

JMO and MOO!!

northernrflxn

07-06-2006, 11:33 AM

Outside of every indication that there is something seriously and specifically wrong with 2L8, I think sweeping statements about American approaches to crime vs. Canadian approaches to crime are completely unproductive. There is no reason to risk making American posters (on an American site) feel unwelcome, even accidently.

Beyond that, I think that the notion that as a country we have endeavoured to learn from these crimes is laughable. Learning requires information. For that, you'd have to have a more or less consistently balanced approach from the media and the government, which we most certainly don't.

Why specifically do you feel the government engaged in a cover up, or a fraud, or a whatever, on the people of Ontario?

northernrflxn

07-06-2006, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Canadian
Mr. Toad, I am not sure if any of the posters here have said that Karla is a victim in all of this. Clarity is needed from Northern before any such conclusion can or should be made. Northern may be saying that Karla is a victim of abuse, but not a victim to the tragic events that resulted in the loss of 3 lives. I can not speak for northern. she will have to clarify.

I think Karla was a clear victim of some pretty horrible abuse over a long period of time. Hearing people say otherwise is like nails on a chalkboard to me. I find people that minimize or outright dismiss the overwhelming evidence of it disturbingly callous and without genuine empathy in a broad sense, though they claim to be brimming with it for the unambiguous victims in this case.

Do I think you can draw a straight line between her abuse and her abuse of others? Absolutely not. Do I think it 'excuses' her role in the crimes? Absolutely not. Do I think it warrants serious consideration as a potential mitigating factor? I do think that, though I don't think that conclusion needs to flow from an acknowledgement that she was physically, psychologically and sexually abused by Paul Bernardo.

2L8 4A D8

07-06-2006, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by northernrflxn
Outside of every indication that there is something seriously and specifically wrong with 2L8, I think sweeping statements about American approaches to crime vs. Canadian approaches to crime are completely unproductive. There is no reason to risk making American posters (on an American site) feel unwelcome, even accidently.

Uh huh. If "there is something seriously and specifically wrong" with me, then every anti-Karla Posters on this Board are in the same boat with me. You need to turn it around ~ "there is something seriously and specifically wrong" with all pro-Karla Posters!

<snipped>

Why specifically do you feel the government engaged in a cover up, or a fraud, or a whatever, on the people of Ontario?

Where in any of my Posts do I say that the Canadian "government engaged in a cover up, or a fraud, or a whatever, on the people of Ontario?" I never said any such thing and you know it. You know what I said, so knock it off and quit putting words into my mouth!

JMO and MOO!!

2L8 4A D8

07-06-2006, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by Elsie
Hi JMO

Canadian, whoever, he is????????????????????

Looks like he is trying to put a wedge between you and your Canadian friends on this board. He made inflamatory statements about Americanisms, knowing full well that you are an American. Then when you came back at him on account of that, he turned the tables and made you look like you were the one who was making the obnoxious remarks.

May I suggest that for the moment don't say a single critical word about any Canadian. At this point on the poster it is making you look bad.

I wonder where Canadian came from HUHHHHHHHHHHH

Hi Elsie! If Canadian can "put a wedge between me and my Canadian friends on this board" then they truly aren't any kind of cyber-friend are they?

God forbid that I make myself look bad. Thus, I will not be responding any further to any post from a pro-Karla Poster. Trust me!

Canadian

07-06-2006, 03:27 PM

There is so much hype in here that most do not take the time to read the posts properly.

Since others posted about me, I will exercise my right to respond......

Elsie, I intend to place no wedge as you have suggested. i stated my observation of the happenings on this thread, and I can do that because I reside in a country that gives me the right. You nor anyone else will violate my rights. You are too focused on proving Northern wrong, instead of attempting to have a constructive discussion with her. Having said that, reading Northern's last comments about my comments I could see where it may be difficult to accomplished that level of discussion with her.

To all, if you continue with the childlike nonsense the Mods will delete all. Use this forum for its intended purpose.

northernrflxn said:
"Outside of every indication that there is something seriously and specifically wrong with 2L8, I think sweeping statements about American approaches to crime vs. Canadian approaches to crime are completely unproductive. There is no reason to risk making American posters (on an American site) feel unwelcome, even accidently."

Actually, it is productive because it shows that there are different approaches to dealing with crime north and south of the border, and that is the reason for most of the arguing and other nonsense on this thread. My main purpose for that statement was to remind the Canadians of their identity.

northernrflxn, I have asked you questions in hopes of understanding why you are obsessed with getting others to believe that Karla was a victim. Apparently, no other poster here, including myself, agrees with you. Yet, you are determine to convince others with the use of insults. I was the only one here that showed you any respect, and you turned on me.....

I am truly attempting to understand you. Something happened directly or indirectly to you to force you to act in this manner. This is not the type of behaviour that comes from a stabled person. If you are willing, I am ready to discuss it with you. If not, I have no more to say to you.

2L8 4A D8, it appears that your sole purpose here is to exercise the American way - to argue, belittle, etc. any person who does not agree with you. You are doing the exact same thing that you accuse northern of doing. As a result, you have lost all credibility.

northernrflxn

07-06-2006, 03:39 PM

Ummmm.....what insult? I said I thought your generalized statement was unproductive, and I stand by that.

singlesix

07-06-2006, 04:08 PM

"I would imagine that pyschiatry and psychology are sciences that often involve medicated subjects, and that as a matter of common custom allowances are made, or not made, as required."

You imagine? You give lengthy lectures on psychiatry and psychology and preach on and on and you don't know? Sheesh.

singlesix

Canadian

07-06-2006, 05:54 PM

I have allocated two days for postings on this thread. This is the last day.

I will lower my standards, today, to respond to Elsie's comments.

Elsie, nowhere did I state that Canadians and Americans on this thread do not get along. In fact, it is you who is attempting to create a division between the two nationalities. I made no insult to the Americans. To repeat myself, I stated the differences between the two nations' approach to dealing with crime, especially such cases as the one that involves Karla. You attempt to present yourself as a person in-the-know. Contact a Gov't official and ask him/her what the difference is between Canadian and American attitudes towards crime. It is no secret that Canadians are focused on prevention and the Americans are focused on harsher penalities.

I attempted to get the topic back on track. It was you and others who went off topic when you attacked northern. The discussion developed into one extremist focused on Karla's alleged abuse and other extremists opposed to any discussion on the alleged abuse. It is now about who can obtained the most control of this thread. Elsie, you and others here have control issues. My presense here has threaten your level of control. Your response to my comments are a classic case of a person having feelings of helplessness, and that specific feeling is being converted into anger. I predict that feeling of anger will convert into a verbally violent outrage, similar to what we are witnessing in northern's behaviour.

You have until the end of the day to release that verbal violence.

Canadian

07-06-2006, 07:30 PM

Elsie, if you are going to respond to my comments, then at least attempt to get it right........

I said the American way - argue and belittle. Nowhere did I use the word aggression.

I assume the Americans here are of adult age, therefore, they can respond for themselves. They do not need you speaking for them and getting everything confused.

Elsie, opinions are not usually placed on the record.

In case you did not take the time to read my comments properly, or perhaps there is a level of illiteracy, I mentioned northern's outrage and stated, not in so many words, that she is wrong. I do not agree with anything that northern has posted here. But, I will attempt to respect her right to post it.

you stated that 2L8 does not insult. I suggest that you read the part where she compared me to northern.

I am not anti-American. That, in and of itself, does not and should not violate my rights to forward information to what is generally known on both sides of the border. If a few of them are that offended, then they should use caution when addressing others and not freely express their opinions.

The rest of your second last post is purely speculation on your part, so I will not address it.

"Your opening entry stated " I did not get involved in earlier postings here because it appeared to be too Americanized""

That is not a put down of the American people. You left out the part where I explained why.

"It was uninvited, and unwarranted and had no place in the discussion at hand."

Oh, it was fitting of the discussion at hand, the one where attacks were executed from both sides. Are you suggesting that all of your comments are invited and warranted? If so, you proved my comments to be correct on your control issues.

"What would be my motive for that?"

Pure Control!!

since you are a "foreigner" (your word) you would not understand the Canadian way and the Canadian identity. Like the Americans, Canadians take great pride in their identity and would go to great lengths to preserve said identity. In other words, you are babbling on about a topic you know nothing about.

You refer to yourself as a foreigner. Does that suggest that you are not a Canadian citizen nor do you have plans to become a Canadian citizen?

By the way, are you from England?

Your last comment is insulting, yet you attempt to twist things to make it look as though I am the one insulting.

Any intelligent person who reads your posts will view your controlling ways. If i was to continue this for a week or a month or longer, you would continue with it because you can not let go. You can not stay away from this forum because you have found a place on the Internet where you feel as though you have control. Your posts to me are the most childlike that I have seen. You are so focused on control that you can not see your babbling nonsense.

Bottom line, what I say to or about Americans is none of your business.

When in Canada do as the Canadians.

It appears that Hope is the only Canadian here, excluding myself. If this is true, then it explains a lot.

I do have more understanding of you, Elsie. You are a foreigner speaking from your own nationality perceptions and perspectives. You obviously have no clue about the Canadian way.

Canadian

07-06-2006, 08:22 PM

Since the end of the day is approaching, I return to post my final comments to Elsie.

Elsie, I leave you with a reminder........

Elsie is in Canada due to the kindness of Canadians. While residing in Canada Elsie is afforded the use of programs and services paid for by the Canadian citizens. Elsie will establish herself in Canada while riding on the backs of Canadians.

NEVER FORGET THAT!!!!!

Elsie enters this thread and calls a Canadian a bigot for expressing factual information on different attitudes on crime within two societies existing in North America. Unfortunately, Elsie has little knowledge on the definition of the word bigot. In fact, she could be called a bigot for having no tolerance for northern's beliefs.

Elsie, know your role, know your place, while you place your feet on Canadian soil.

In case a moron decides to come back and say that I am against the foreigner, I could say similar things about Canadians. Facts are facts and they can not be re-designed to accomodate an individual.

Disclaimer: all of the above statements are the sole opinions/thoughts of the author and documented facts.

Canadian

07-06-2006, 08:37 PM

Elsie, it may be a language issue depending on what country you are from, but you completely misquote.....

"Saying to Northern.....'you have abuse issues, and I'm willing to discuss them with you".

Re-read my post. Nowhere did I place together her possible abuse issues and that I would discuss them with her. I did not say that I would discuss her possible abuse issues.

I am attempting to understand you, Elsie, because you may have language barriers. I do not know since I am unaware of your homeland.

If it is not a language barrier, then you are illiterate. You need serious assistance with conquering the language arts.

These language barriers/illiteracy are giving you an appearance of a person with low intelligence. For the sake of your dignity, end this nonsense.

"Then you tell us that you are giving us one evening of your time, like it's a threat."

No, it was suggestive that I would not waste my time on a person of your intelligence, or lack thereof.

To repeat myself, it is none of your business what I post here if it is not directed to you.

You do not control me, you do not dictate to me. Do you understand that?

northernrflxn

07-07-2006, 12:36 AM

So, uh....yeah! Like I said...unproductive. That's all I meant.

ella

07-07-2006, 09:13 AM

Hi everyone!
As i have only read about Karla on the crime libary, i am not going to comment as to whether i think she was forced into doing these gross acts to these poor girls. I would however like to read some more on the case so if anyone has anything that they would recommend for me to read i would be very grateful.
Cheers:D

MrToadsWildRide

07-07-2006, 10:35 AM

Hi Ella :seeya:

This thread went to hell in a handbag quickly.

There are a few books that you can read about the crimes of Paul,and Karla.

Invisible Darkness
Deadly Innocence
Lethal Marriage
Karla A Pact With The Devil
Karla's Web

They will keep you captivated (I was anyways)

Just for the record though..I will say that the poster "Canadian" was NOT at all trying to divide the Americans/Canadians whatsoever.I saw nothing derogatory at all.

We all have our opinions,and we all pretty much agree where Karla is concerned...there will always be a few that are on opposite sides.

I like hearing everyone's opinions,whether I agree or not.

ella

07-07-2006, 11:02 AM

Thanks ever so much Mrtoadswildride it is much appreciated!!!:D

hockeymomof5

07-08-2006, 05:30 AM

Originally posted by Canadian
Since the end of the day is approaching, I return to post my final comments to Elsie.

Elsie, I leave you with a reminder........

Elsie is in Canada due to the kindness of Canadians. While residing in Canada Elsie is afforded the use of programs and services paid for by the Canadian citizens. Elsie will establish herself in Canada while riding on the backs of Canadians.

NEVER FORGET THAT!!!!!

Elsie enters this thread and calls a Canadian a bigot for expressing factual information on different attitudes on crime within two societies existing in North America. Unfortunately, Elsie has little knowledge on the definition of the word bigot. In fact, she could be called a bigot for having no tolerance for northern's beliefs.

Elsie, know your role, know your place, while you place your feet on Canadian soil.

In case a moron decides to come back and say that I am against the foreigner, I could say similar things about Canadians. Facts are facts and they can not be re-designed to accomodate an individual.

Disclaimer: all of the above statements are the sole opinions/thoughts of the author and documented facts.

WTH?!? "While riding on the backs of....."? What a total bunch of garbage talk from a peace loving Canadian! Ah, and you say American way is to "argue and belittle". WTH do you think what YOU said here was?

I am an American living in Canada. I will NEVER give up my US citizenship. MY CHOICE! I have raised five wonderful Canadian sons over the past 21 years. I am an active volunteer in my children's schools and the community.

The community in which I live is right up the hill from the city where Kristen French was abducted, Karla's parents reside and where Paul and Karla committed their crimes. I live just a few minutes walk from the lake in which Leslie's body was found. I will tell you that there is NO difference in the way Canadians AND Americans that I have spoken to have reacted in my community in regards to this crime. I have YET to speak with ANYONE who believes that Karla's crimes can be excused or explained via her abuse by Paul. They could care less what she was subjected to and focus mainly on HER PARTICIPATION in the horrible crimes they committed TOGETHER!

Canadian, you are HARDLY the kinder, gentler representative of the attitude of the country of which you represent. If anything, it is YOU who has created more strife on this thread than ANY of the other posters, including Northern (yes, I said it) by assuming the "high and mighty, peace loving Canadian" posture while beating others down with your words. Quite hypocritical in my opinion.

"Documented Facts"? Care to prove the link to any of them? Thanks!

Hope MT

07-08-2006, 08:53 AM

Good post "Hockeymom".......given the general description of where you live, I am only about 45 minutes away and I can confirm what you say that most people in Canada DO NOT buy into the crap that Karla is a victim.......in fact it has been the single biggest outrage Canadians have collectively screamed about since these sickening crimes happened........perhaps it has a bearing on why we now have a conservative government.......enough ! (we all said)

I have a social conscience, don't get me wrong, but it is also balanced with a desire to live by the rule of law generally and the need to protect innocent people (especially our children), from the perverted and violent minds out there..........I'm sick and tired of hearing people's twisted excuses and I blame the "social engineers" and our cowardly judges and justice-industry for bringing us to this point..........the laws and punishments ARE on the books!.....USE THEM!......innocents are dying out there!

singlesix

07-09-2006, 09:19 PM

"I said the American way - argue and belittle."

I nominate you for honorary citizenship. ;)

BTW, are you referring to the Yankee American way, the Southern American way, the California American way, the Midwesterner's American way, the Texas American way,...well, you get the idea that there are a lot of different American ways. More than even the different Canadian ways I've run across.

I'm a Virginian (by the Grace of God) on both sides going back to pre-Revolutionary War days. Scots-Irish with a little German thrown in - probably Mennonite, but nobody is saying. We're different, too.

singlesix
__________________

Edited to add: This is encouraging...

"I'm sick and tired of hearing people's twisted excuses and I blame the "social engineers" and our cowardly judges and justice-industry for bringing us to this point...."

We're fighting the same battles here.

quiscalus

07-20-2006, 11:17 AM

I just happened upon this message board and read it with interest. A few comments/personal opinions re Karla from someone who has followed the case for years:

1) Karla spent her time in the hospital (after her family dragged her away from Bernardo) reading books on battered women. She learned to quote from them chapter and verse.

2) Yes, she was emotionally abused, but there was never any indication of the horrific physical abuse she claimed until the end of her relationship to Bernardo.

3) One of the psychiatrists who believed that she was abused (to some extent) nevertheless commented on Karla's "moral vacuity." (See the Cairns and Burnside book.)

5) In my opinion that moral vacuity still exists.
If she can "fall in love" with the likes of Jean-Paul Gerbet WHILE STILL IN PRISON, who or what will attract her now that she's out?

I BELIEVE that Bernardo was the main player in these outrageous and disgusting crimes. He's a textbook sexual sadist. But she chose to stay with him; I don't believe that she was completely under his control . And she certainly wasn't when they murdered her little sister.

Yes, she served all the time she was given. But I don't think she's changed a bit. I only hope that the next person she hooks up with isn't another pyschopath.

After reading what's been going on on this board, I realize I'm putting myself in the position of being told -- albeit diplomatically -- that I'm a moron. So I'll apologize for having had to write this quickly (and no doubt poorly) without editing, as I'm at work....

Thanks for allowing me to voice my humble opinion.

:punch:

dragonlady

07-26-2006, 03:44 AM

oh well, here goes. I'm an Australian and have read a fair bit about the case over the years.

Just today I watched the "Karla" movie & thought I'd read the threads here as well.

For the record, I liked the movie as being well played & acted, but it certainly portrays Karla as a victim & a very reluctant player in the murders.

I'm fairly sure in my own mind that she was, & remains, more of a Rosemary West, an active participant.

Is she still dangerous? Who knows, really? I suspect that if she became involved with another sexual predator that she would be. On her own, probably not.

quiscalus

07-26-2006, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by dragonlady
oh well, here goes. I'm an Australian and have read a fair bit about the case over the years.

Just today I watched the "Karla" movie & thought I'd read the threads here as well.

For the record, I liked the movie as being well played & acted, but it certainly portrays Karla as a victim & a very reluctant player in the murders.

I'm fairly sure in my own mind that she was, & remains, more of a Rosemary West, an active participant.

Is she still dangerous? Who knows, really? I suspect that if she became involved with another sexual predator that she would be. On her own, probably not.

Dragonlady, I agree entirely. I think Karla is incredibly hollow and needs
a partner, hence she "falls in love" with just about every man or woman
with whom she has sexual contact.

If she falls in love with Joe Straight and Narrow, she just might be OK. But
as she seems to be drawn to violent men, I fear for the people she'll
settle among.

I doubt very much that she will end up with a woman. She was
incarcerated in a women's prison, so she had to go to women for the
validation she craves. Women are certainly not her gender of choice.

MOO, of course!

denisevans2003

07-26-2006, 01:01 PM

How do i find out when the movie is coming near me?

dragonlady

07-26-2006, 06:12 PM

Hi Denise. I think the movie has been around for a couple of years. I own a video shop & have just put the dvd in for hire. It's a new release over here but has probably been available over there for some time.

henahed

07-28-2006, 04:10 PM

What a thread this is!

briansgirlj

07-29-2006, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by MrToadsWildRide
Karla enjoyed the torture,and murder of those girls just as much as Paul did...maybe even more.Just because she is a female doesn't mean that she is not evil...she enjoyed killing them.No one will ever make me believe otherwise.

I don't want to hear about her being a battered wife.She had options,she was NOT being held captive,and she herself had drugged her friend so that Paul could rape her...for a wedding present.

What about her baby sister? Was she forced to help with that rape? NO!!! She was willing,and able.This isn't about her being battered,and being a victim.She was,and will always be just as guilty as Paul.

I believe ( I could be wrong.) that her little sister was a Christmas gift to her husband. I think that if she is not a psychopath (which I think she is.), she is most definetly narcsistic.. I think she got off entirely too soon and I feel very sorry that the family has to live with the knowledge that not only is her daughter NOT coming home, her killer is living out her days in her own home.

briansgirlj

07-29-2006, 03:27 AM

I just want to add something. Karla is the one who offered up her sister to her husband as a gift. Then She is the one who lured Kristin to the car to give to her husband. These two acts in itself, shows that she had a very active role in these murders. In fact, I would not be suprised at all if she started all of this because maybe he shared a fantasy with her and Karla wanted to let him live his fantasy. Here is the link on the story about them that talks about Karla's role.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/bernardo/31.html

MrToadsWildRide

07-29-2006, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by briansgirlj

I believe ( I could be wrong.) that her little sister was a Christmas gift to her husband. I think that if she is not a psychopath (which I think she is.), she is most definetly narcsistic.. I think she got off entirely too soon and I feel very sorry that the family has to live with the knowledge that not only is her daughter NOT coming home, her killer is living out her days in her own home.

You are correct about her helping Paul rape her sister for a Christmas present...and she setup the rape of her friend as a wedding gift to Paul...this was something she concocted all on her own.

northernrflxn

07-30-2006, 12:57 AM

The 'Christmas Present' tale is one the great sound bites of this case, but the actual trial testimony on this issue wasn't precisely what is in the public consciousness I don't think.

Bernardo had been pressuring Homolka for months to facilitate sex with her younger sister. Eventually, Homolka procured the drugs that could be used to sedate her sister for the purpose. Trial testimony was that on December 23rd, Bernardo said to Homolka "You know, this is the day I want to do this. It would be a great Christmas present for me." Homoka said she cried, and begged him not to do it, but he said "No, we're doing it", and that was it. Homolka's statement that she was distressed and resistant is very much supported on the tape of the actual assault several hours later.

The 'Christmas present' thing came from Bernardo, and was just one of a barrage of approaches he used over a long period of time to pressure Homolka and normalize the totally bizarre fantasy. Of course, Homolka is still completely responsible for her own choices and actions in this crime.

awareness

08-08-2006, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Hope MT

It is clear that they are not in the know about this case as, if they were, they would know that Karla exhibited no signs of abuse either physically or emotionally during her time with Paul and in fact led a very active social life including unrestrained access to family, friends and work. She appeared confidant in herself, very outspoken and free to do as she pleased. The only time she complained was when she was actually beaten up and had no problem running straight to the authorities. In fact , although just a theory of mine, it is quite possible that Karla provoked Paul into beating her so she could have photos taken and thus start laying the groundwork for her defense as she may have sensed the police closing in.

No offense meant, but you are contradicting yourself when you said she never exhibited physical abuse - yet then was "actually beaten up".

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/bernardo/13.html

Clearly shows KH with black eyes. There's another photo a few pages later with black eyes as well. Regardless of your "theory" of if she was trying to set up an 'alibi' per sey of a DV situation -- the black eyes were a violent gift from PB.

Don't get me wrong, she's a total sick monster. I can't fathom that she killed her own sister, let alone the others. I was just pointing out an IMO discrepancy, that's all.

Canadian

08-09-2006, 12:31 AM

"....but you are contradicting yourself...."

" I was just pointing out an IMO discrepancy, that's all."

That happens a lot here. That is why it is difficult to have a productive discussion. As I stated previously, many are unaware of their on-the-fence approach. They are not sure why they are here. They simply have a need to vent.

2L8 4A D8

08-09-2006, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Canadian
"....but you are contradicting yourself...."

" I was just pointing out an IMO discrepancy, that's all."

That happens a lot here. That is why it is difficult to have a productive discussion. As I stated previously, many are unaware of their on-the-fence approach. They are not sure why they are here. They simply have a need to vent.

I don't know if you realize it or not, but you are no better than Northern IMO. You post the above about us supposed "fence sitters" and then on another Thread you chastize Northern for doing the same thing about us supposed "fence sitters." Which is it with you because you are obviously talking out of both sides of your mouth?

JMO and MOO!!

Canadian

08-09-2006, 02:47 PM

"I don't know if you realize it or not, but you are no better than Northern IMO. You post the above about us supposed "fence sitters" and then on another Thread you chastize Northern for doing the same thing about us supposed "fence sitters." Which is it with you because you are obviously talking out of both sides of your mouth?"

That made absolutely no sense.

Posting about on-the-fence approaches on different threads does not mean that I am "talking out of both sides of your mouth"

Northern did not say anyone was on-the-fence. Northern simply insults for the sake of insulting.

If you are going to reply to my posts, then at least do so intelligently. Otherwise, you prove my initial comments on this forum. You are obviously a bored person who logs onto the internet to argue with strangers.

I realize the reason why a few posters are here. Why are you here? Is your presence here representative of the female gender to outcast a member in an attempt to repair its reputation?

MrToadsWildRide

08-09-2006, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by 2L8 4A D8

I don't know if you realize it or not, but you are no better than Northern IMO. You post the above about us supposed "fence sitters" and then on another Thread you chastize Northern for doing the same thing about us supposed "fence sitters." Which is it with you because you are obviously talking out of both sides of your mouth?

JMO and MOO!!

Why are you so nasty to those who don't agree with you? I've noticed this for awhile now...and so have a few other posters.

Canadian

08-09-2006, 08:30 PM

I am not sure if MrToad's question is directed to 2L8 or myself. I know that he quoted 2L8, but it is unclear if it was for support. One thing that I noticed on Internet forums is the duality in the postings. Many comments are open ended.

In case it was directed to me I will respond. If it was not directed to me...sorry.

Generally, most posters here are in agreement, with the exception of northern. I did not agree with all comments here, but I did not respond. I only respond and attempt to address the zig-zag approach on this forum. When one makes a comment and is questioned on it, the author of the comments jumps to the other side and as a result contradiction takes place. Obviously, others have noticed this as well.

As I stated in my first post on this forum, everyone is here for a reason. Apparently, it is not simply for discussing Karla. There are too many personal agendas. It is not unique to this forum, but all forums.

I am not here to convince anyone of anything. Believe what I say or do not.

The problem is that those who are interested in a productive discussion will not post here because of a few control freaks.

Although I did not and do not agree with anything that Northern posts, I did tell her that I read her posts with interest due to the way that she presented them. Lately, her posts have been to simply insult and control.

2L8 4A D8

08-10-2006, 02:12 AM

It is obvious that Mr. Toad's Post was directed at me Canadian. I am sorry, but I do not want to post with or be around people who think nothing of talking about me behind my back, but yet don't have the cahones to say anything to my face. Life is too short and Karla Homolka is so not worth it. I am outta here. Buh Bye!

MrToadsWildRide

08-10-2006, 10:04 AM

The post was directed to 2L8.I quoted you,therefore I wasn't talking behind your back.

I agree with you 2L8 100% where Karla is concerned...BUT I don't agree with your childish remarks that you make to posters...and how you threaten to report posts that you don't like...I am embarassed for you when you do that...and YES you have done that.

Seems to me you don't even thoroughly read some of the posts, otherwise you wouldn't jump to the conclusions that you do....like a vulture swarming,and ready to attack.You can't prance around here saying what you want...but cry when others do.How sad.

Canadian

08-10-2006, 05:08 PM

Sorry....apparently I missed posts by 2L8 or perhaps the reference was about her posts on other forums.

Morbidly_Lovely

08-19-2006, 11:01 PM

is one of the most interesting things I've read in a long time. So many different personalities and so much drama!!! Anyway, I can't help but notice that the postings are slowing down. I certainly hope they aren't stopping altogether, because this is now officially added as one of my "favorite" places to browse. Wow, this beats ebay!!!

You all ROCK!!!!!!!!!!

Morbidly_Lovely

08-27-2006, 11:07 AM

Ummmm....alrighty. I have no idea how elsie's comments apply to my post but thanks for the 'warm welcome.' maybe i should have said i was from canada. ~~~yikes~~~

2L8 4A D8

08-27-2006, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by Elsie
Total bampottery!

Elsie: Got your PM. Many thanks. I tried PMing you back, but couldn't! I hope that you read this post. IMO, all of the great posters are gone and I am jumping off of this sinking ship as well!

joanw_123

09-09-2006, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Lanna89
I'm not an expert on the Homolka/Bernardo murder case.However I am a former victim of DV.My husband attacked me with a wooden baseball bat and almost killed me back in 1993.He got away with it because he would not allow me to call the Police or seek medical attention.I divorced him but was left permanently disabled as a result of the attack.
I do not think that anyone who has not been themself a victim of DV can understand the kind of manipulation and mind control that goes on in those relationships.It is really beyond most people's capacity to understand.And unless you have a sympathetic family or other resources it can be very difficult to get out of.Threats,intimidation,torture and mind control are the hallmarks of these relationships.

I feel that Paul Bernardo was the main perpetrator in the murders of Tammy,Leslie and Kristen.He initiated them and carried them out.There is no disputing the evidence that Karla was severely abused by him for years.Or that he exerted mind control over her.She was not in my opinion capable psychologically of defending either herself or Bernardo's other victims.Not that I absolve her totally of responsibility.I do think at some point she might have intervened.But she was very much a victim of Bernardo's sociopathic sickness and I do have sympathy for her.

This case is yet another horribly sad example of the evil that DV wrecks on our society.Perhaps if someone had intervened earlier in that twisted relationship the innocent lives taken might have been spared.I have the greatest sympathy for the victims and their families.

Lanna

I think your assessment may be sku'd as a result of your own experience. Somehow, through your experience you think the Bernardo/Holmoka experience has all the same dynamic's as your life. This is not so. Paul never murdered before Holmoka came on the scene. There is no evidence of him beating her throughout the marriage ,with the exception of the time she went to the police.

In fact.... they indulged in BDSM, where she very willingly played the submissive and enjoyed her beatings/spankings etc.
I think as the marriage turned direction near the end.....and it all backfired on Karla....when Paul actually did beat her from rage and anger.....not from an erotic place of sexual kink.

joanw_123

09-09-2006, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by denisevans2003
How do i find out when the movie is coming near me?

You could try looking it up on Google.

joanw_123

09-09-2006, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by VictorianLady
We don't know exactly what happened in Leslie's home, we don't live there, we were not there, so leave the stone throwing out when it comes to victims family. Unless of course you have walked in Mrs. Mahaffy's shoes and have yourself lost a child, then for the love of god, please stop this. It's all easy for us to say "I'll never lock my child out" but what if a situation comes up that is beyond your control? are you ready to eat your words? Let us not judge. Let us pray, and let us be informed of a very real evil that may be stalking the young and innocent as we are writing this right now!

Too many times in my own community I see hypocrisy alive and vibrant, I believe it to be a waste of energy when we could be advocating for what is best for ALL OUR childrens safety. Children have a right to grow up, have children, live their lives fully, these girls never had the chance, blaming the mother for something she obviously regrets, and reminding her when we should be supportive is not very christian (I use christian, as christians should love and help one another)

If any, the blame should rest on the perverted demons that snuffed her life out. Mrs. Mahaffy lost a child she carried for nine months, and raised to a young lady, alot of us don't know how this feels, and quite frankly hope we never find out.
Just my opinion.

I agree with you Victorian Lady. Leslie was a teenager...and a handful, as they all can be at that stage. I know I tried several different forms of punishment with my own daughter....locking her out wasn't one of them.....but perhaps only because I never thought about it. Debbie is not the perp here....we must keep in mind who is. Debbie could not in her wildest dreams imagined this to happen. They lived in a safe community where crimes of this nature never occured. I also believe she thought Leslie had a key (Which she did not).

Why is it we always lean toward blaming the victim(s)?

joanw_123

09-09-2006, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Hope MT
Northern;

It is becoming abundantly clear that you are going to extraordinary lengths here to deflect any kind of responsibility that Karla should own for HER crimes. ......I'll repeat that......HER crimes.

The record indicates she is a rapist, child molestor, kidnapper, sexual sadist, pathological liar, sociopath and also a thief and yet you deliberately choose to not use any of these words so as to further your views that a woman can not possibly commit such heinous crimes. Your last post only goes to show the denial you are in when you stated she suffers from guilt and remorse.......what??......where and when?..........oh, maybe she has remorse that she got caught!....but that's it!!

And here's the kicker which trips you up on your flawed theories.

If Karla suffered from post traumatic stress disorder or battered wife syndrome, how could the psychometric testing she no doubt would have taken show no personality disorders??........it doesn't make sense unless the psychiatrists already had a pre-determined diagnosis of "Karla is a victim" when opening up the file.

If anything, it was Karla who manipulated Paul into becoming involved in crimes he hadn't yet aspired to. Karla was well aware of how to manipulate men into doing whatever she needed to fulfill her desires. Her mother taught her that as the Homolka household was full of manipulative women "in training" and as shocking as that sounds, one just has to look at the role the father was reduced to in that home........he became nothing more than a source of money for four competing women (including mom)

Paul entered the scene and Karla, seeing his insatiable desire for sex and rape, saw the perfect opportunity to feed his ego and get him to climb up to the next level............no better than a dealer of cocaine who gets their victim so hooked on the drug that they will do anything to keep it supplied......

Maybe, just maybe, Paul's beating of Karla was one of unbridled rage for letting Karla manipulate him to the point that people died.
By your own admission, that beating was horrific and I agree......but it was the only documented beating she ever received. So what brought it on?........huh?.......well, if a guy like Paul who without a doubt thought he was smarter than anyone else in his own crimes finds out he just got outsmarted by a bigger and better manipulator, that would be about the only thing that would set off an attack such as he launched on Karla.....that was pure anger and rage!....again, what could have possibly set him off to such a degree other than the finding that he was out-manouvered by Karla......it was an attack on his intelligence and it sent him into a rage.

She is a master-manipulator of historic proportions like this country has never seen before and has figured out how to use the weaknesses in our society and it's penchant to make all kinds of excuses for any gruesome crime a woman may commit . Society just doesn't want to believe that a woman can be so evil and therefore we must find a reason to explain it off.

I dare you to call her a rapist, kidnapper, child molestor and sexual sadist outright..........ummmmm, she is ya know, or did you forget that.

By the way, what are your reasons for being so interested in this case to the degree you seem to be........it seems personal to you or am I just reading too much into your responses.

Well put. Keep in mind that it was Karla (Not Paul) that wanted Leslie dead after her blindfold fell off and he was afraid of being recognized.
It was Karla that wanted to kill her by injecting an air bubble into her. Something she learned being a Vet's assistant.

henahed

09-17-2006, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by northernrflxn

I am intimately aquainted with the circumstances of Leslie's abduction, and don't need any clarification. I have tremendous empathy for Debbie Mahaffey and her unimaginable loss, and I have deep admiration for those times that she has been incredibly brave. I hope very much that she has come to see what the rest of us do: she carries no responsibility whatsoever for what happened to her daughter.

That being said, she is a human being, and in my opinion she has not been perfect in her activism and public response. I take particular exception to her telling a group of highschool students during a formal speaking engagement that Karla Homolka 'is not capable of remorse'. Mrs. Mahaffey cannot be expected to be a fair and accurate judge of that. It oversteps her public role and lends credence to the completely innappropriate actions of the government and media on Homolka's release last July.

While Mrs. Mahaffey harbours understandable rage toward the people responsible for her daughter's death, we in society have an obligation to understand that Leslie did not cross path with two demons. She crossed paths with two human beings, one of whom who was judged less harshly for well documented reasons, and judged to be suitable for reintegration into society.

I can't see how calling Karla Homolka a demon on some message board, probably without about 98% of the available information you'd need to make a reliable assessment of her, furthers any good cause at all.

Like I told you earlier, empathy is something that you don't and never could possess. You have never had children, and you therefore, engage in wreckless speech that could cause extreme harm to those that surround you.

Many of them have co dependents, and don't have the freedom from there being serious consequences for their actions like you do.

Your rebel yell could so easily be vanquished, so unbelievably easy. But people who are afraid to stand up to you would suffer. You are an individual with a big mouth who is in the habit of bullying anyone in a vulnerable position. But with your superiors you are a real snake, a real smooth talking shmoosy.

How approprate that you adopted the roll of Homolka's apologist. That suits you right down to the ground. Why? Because like you she had a very unsavoury agenda, that she attempted to fulfill at the expense of weaker individuals who were somewhat defenseless beside her. Her course hurt, maimed and destroyed other peoples hope for happiness. Did she care? Did she hell.

But look at her now. Where is she? Who cares about her? Leper that she is. That's were your going deary. You just don't realize it yet.

JMO & MOO!!